Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 21 Nov 2017


No summary available.




The House met at 10:00.

House Chairperson Ms A T Didiza took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms T Didiza): Good morning, hon members. We thank God for the rain in the Western Cape. We hope it’s going to continue so that the dams could get full.

We would like to welcome to Parliament our guests who are in the gallery. Ladies and gentlemen, you are welcome. [Applause.] Just a bit of House Rules! While we welcome you as our guests, we would appeal that as you are seated there you do not participate in the debate and what happens here. You are not allowed to clap hands and you

are not allowed to chat back when members are being naughty - which they sometimes do. You must just sit and listen to the debate and reflect on whether or not we represent you as citizens in the best way we need to.

So, I hope we will be able to appreciate that little bit of a Rule. Thank you very much, our guests. “Ki ya leboga” [Thank you] “siya bonga” [Thank you].



Chairperson, this year marks I9 years since the United Nations adopted the 16 Days of Activism Campaign for no Violence Against Women and Children. This debate is important for us to reflect on progress we have made and the challenges we continue to face in building a safe society free from fear and violence. Ending the scourge of violence against women and children remains a top priority of this government. It is for this reason that we have extended the I6 Days of Activism Campaign to 365

days of continuous campaign, mobilisation and activism to transform attitudes and behaviours for the common good.

Vision 2030 of the National Development Plan and the United Nations’ Sustainable Development Goals, SDGs, set targets for addressing persistent discrimination against women and addressing patriarchal attitudes and challenges of triple challenges of inequality and access to education. Patriarchy continues to deny women opportunities to lead the lives they desire. Further, social, cultural, religious and educational barriers also continue to limit the scope for women advancement and prospects for entering the job market. As government, our programmes are structured to respond to the United Nation’s Sustainable Development Goals, particularly Goal 5, which seeks to achieve gender equality and empowerment of all women and girls. We continue to intensify our efforts to enhance skills and capabilities of women, especially rural women.

This year we have witnessed increases in femicides and overall violence against women and children. Lately, this violence has taken more barbaric acts of burning victims

and even cannibalism in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu- Natal.

As promised, in partnership with provincial governments and various institutions we have launched the national dialogues on violence against women and children programme in Limpopo in 2016. These dialogues enable us to engage with communities to better understand the root causes of violence against women and children. They provide a platform for victims and perpetrators of violence against women and children to interact and to find common solutions. Our national dialogues have attracted both men and women who came forward to talk about their experiences in relation to violence against women and children. We now know that violence against women and children is a complex, multilayered, intergenerational and systemic problem.

So far, we have concluded dialogues in Limpopo, Northern Cape and Mpumalanga. These dialogues took place in all district municipalities of these provinces. Yesterday, we launched the Eastern Cape chapter of our dialogues on violence against women and children in partnership with

the Eastern Cape provincial government and various stakeholders in the province. We will be conducting dialogues in all district municipalities of the Eastern Cape. In the Eastern Cape we want to welcome the traditional leadership which will be participating in all our dialogues, including Imbumba ya Makhosikazi, the wives of traditional leaders who are concerned about violence against women and children.

Preliminary findings are indicating that the dialogues which we have conducted have a number of identified factors perpetuating gender-based violence in our society. Some of those issues which we have found are that violence against women arises out of poverty, despair and substance abuse. In some communities we have noted incidents of incest, teenage pregnancies and high levels of substance abuse which have produced fetal alcohol syndrome which is linked to alcohol consumption during pregnancy. This is presenting more challenges for early child development.

After each dialogue in the provinces, the department shares such information with the provincial government

and relevant institutions to help inform policy interventions. It is also expected that the findings arising from the national dialogues will contribute to the revision of the Integrated Programme of Action Against Women and Children and also in the review of this programme in 2018

I wish to commend the increasing involvement of men who have taken a stand and become involved in various campaigns which include the #Not in My Name, #Stop Excuses and #There is No Excuse for Violence.
Conversations on the role of men in changing gender relations are a necessity in a society that cares about changing attitudes and mindsets in transforming unequal power relations between men and women.

The SA National Aids Council, Sanac, men's sector and movements such as Takuwani Riime, are playing a leading role in mobilising men to stand up against gender-based violence in our country. We work with them in various times in making sure that in different communities we are able to make an impact. Takuwani Riime is addressing men and it works with women and Lesbian Gay Bisexual

Transgender and Intersex, LGBTI, organisations to ensure that no one is left behind. It also calls for strategic partnerships with government through their Phila campaign and Mzansi Man. These are programmes which intend to ensure that the issue of violence against women continues to be a priority. Over the weekend we had a successful Men's Parliament which was held in Cape Town. And also we had a successful men’s march on Sunday in making sure that the abuse of women and children continue to be a priority.

Very critical of this was that 19 November was International Men's Day. Given this South African men committed themselves to continue to use this day in fighting the various scourges and ills in our country. We welcome efforts by men who participated in this forum, including Ubuhle Bamadoda, Show Me Your Number, What's in Your Pocket, Not In My Name, Our Father, Men on the Mountain and Dad's in the Picture. We are pleased to note the five-year #No Excuse campaign to change behaviours and work with over 10 000 taverns to prevent violence associated with alcohol abuse.

The Men's Parliament resolved that its sittings will take place every two years at national level, annually at provincial level, six months at district level, every three months at local level and daily, weekly and monthly at ward and street levels. Men are now talking about the problems of absent fathers and impact on families and the need to impart values. These campaigns will help nurture young boys to become better citizens that uphold the Constitution.

During the l6 Days of Activisms, which we have launched in the Eastern Cape this week, men must be at the centre of advocacy in tackling the scourge of violence against women and children.

We welcome and support the Namola Safety App, which has been initiated and rolled-out nationally. I must also welcome the ambassador who leads the Namola campaign, Yusuf Abramjee, who is with us today. The Namola Safety App is a crime response app that allows users to share their global positioning system, GPS, co-ordinates, name and nature of the emergency with a 24/7 response call centre. This online panic button guarantees users a call

back within 90 seconds. It points out exactly the location, making it easy for emergency services and the police to respond effectively. Cellphones are useful tools in our fight against gender—based violence.

We also have partnered with Dial Direct in sponsoring the Namola Safety App, and I am pleased that today this app is going to be a success in fighting violence against women.

Further, we are working with the Minister of Police who has endorsed the Namola Safety App and I want to urge all members of this House, both men and women, to download the app and make sure that they report crime as it occurs in various communities. I am also pleased that the business sector has taken a stand in supporting the fight against crime and violence against women and children.
First for Women is investing money to fighting gender- based violence. Other companies and nongovernment organisations, NGOs, are also following suit. We can only do more as a collective.

We have continuous partnership with the faith-based organisations like the Rhema Church, UmKhosi wa Madoda, National Religious Leaders Forum, Jewish
Board of Deputies and religious programmes on radio and television. These are efforts to ensure that the message of no violence and advocacy continue to reach all sectors of society where they spend their time. Faith-based organisations are critical as advocates for a
South Africa that is safe for women and children in part because their stakeholders are highly receptive to their messages. Research institutions have done a lot of work and we are now looking at ways in which their work can help us in formulating our responses to the scourge of violence in our country.

Within government, I am pleased that every province and most government institutions have a programme responding to violence against women and children. We will be partnering with the Department of Transport to maximise the reach and impact of our message on violence against women and children in their Arrive Alive campaign this festive season. We are also continuously working closely with the Sanac’s men sector and the She Conquers on

issues of adolescence girl children. The She Conquers is a three-year campaign which focuses on decreasing new HlV infections in girls and young women up to the age of 14, but also intend to reduce teenage pregnancies, reducing gender-based violence and retaining young women and adolescents in school. Through these partnerships, we have grown awareness regarding the negative impact of gender-based violence campaign and how it should be eradicated.

The interministerial committee, IMC, on Violence Against Women and Children Programme of Action which was launched in 2012, I’m happy to announce that Cabinet took a decision that all need to be reviewed in making sure that we come up with a comprehensive plan which is inclusive of all various participants in our country.

As I conclude, we must be worried about what has happened in our psyche as a society. We need to integrate values of ubuntu with our democratic values. These values must be reflected into our action. We need a discourse on the destruction of our cultural norms. Freedom will be meaningless if women and children cannot walk freely in

our streets. Freedom will be meaningless if our children cannot play freely in their neighbourhood. Freedom will be meaningless if the home is no longer safe place to be for women and children. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms D ROBINSON: Hon Speaker, I cannot but ask who thinks up these slogans for our debates; clearly, it’s someone who is out of touch with the reality of South Africa today. With Ministers of state cosy in their cocoons of corruption and privilege, closeted from the harsh desperate lives of the majority of South Africans, with many hungry children searching for a crust of bread, unemployed parents getting sucked into crime and the oblivion provided by alcohol or drugs.

Much of our justice system is failing us, with criminal and maintenance courts understaffed and compromised in their service delivery. How can we honestly say that we are moving towards a non-violent South African when we look at the statistics; the soaring rates of sexual violence, indecent assault, rape, domestic violence and human trafficking being on the increase? These are everyday occurrences so one sometimes becomes inured to

the shock and horror. But when one of our own peers; a member of this august House is found guilty and sentenced, his first crime a petty one, but then going on to assault three women in a fit of rage, it shows that violence against women prevails every level of our society and knows no class, colour or creed.

It makes one wonder what criteria are used by the President when he selects his Cabinet - certainly not merit. We were assured when charges were laid with the Ethics Committee but what does this committee do? It withdraws the charges. What ethics are expected of hon members?

The first duty of government is to secure the safety of all its citizens. A strong message needs to be sent to other potential abusers to act as a deterrent to all patriarchal predators. Another example of the half- hearted manner in which the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development has been dealing with crimes against women and children, is to be found in the way in which it has dealt with budget cuts. In the difficult

financial departments all are supposed to rationalise or leave vacant what are non-critical posts.

So what has been the response of this Ministry? Well, firstly, over the last year or so ended the contracts of
17 workers at the sexual offences registry. Staff, who were responsible to verify and vet the details of all sex offenders in order for them to be included in the sexual offences register. The accuracy of that register is crucial as it should enable us to prevent sexual predators from being appointed at workplaces where they will have direct access to vulnerable children. We have seen a massive increase of sexual offences committed at schools by educators.

The Ministry earlier this year tried to shelve the rollout of dedicated sexual offences courts by including an amendment to this effect. Luckily, this was stopped by an outcry from civil society groups and the opposition.
However, the rollout of these vitally needed dedicated sexual offence courts will proceed at a snail’s pace in courts due to the excuse of budgetary constraints. Yet government is happy to be extravagant about luxuries and

non-essentials, which do not improve the quality of life of the ordinary person in the street. We recently heard that R700 000 will be spent to ensure that a Minister gets a super duper braai that could have built at least
11 RDP houses.

The vulnerable in our society are indeed vulnerable in more ways than one. This brings me to the maintenance courts whose inaction is inflicting so much harm on parents and children. Mothers are trapped in a poverty cycle, battling to feed and raise their children, but maintenance services are very limited due to the moratorium placed on the employment of staff. I quote from a letter received from the Department of Justice Regional officer located in Plein Street:

“We advise that since there is a moratorium on employment of staff the workload has increased. We understand your concern and frustration and will forward your complaint to our relevant supervisor who has the authority to forward it to National Office”

Sending it upstairs where people are least involved and very often couldn’t be bothered. Do you know that there is only one maintenance officer at Plein Street and people sit there waiting for hours? It takes weeks, months and years for maintenance payments to be made. And the battle for survival continues. Surely this is a violation of access to justice.

One year ago, the DA Women’s Network held a picket outside Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon member! Your time is up.

Ms D ROBINSON: We handed a memorandum to the Department of Justice about the problems; we still have not received the reply. Is there a shredding machine that gobbles up all the petitions? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Robinson, you can see that your time is finished.

Ms D ROBINSON: No, it says I have 20 minutes. [Interjections.]


Ms D ROBINSON: 23 minutes retaining. [Interjections.]



Ms D ROBINSON: We would love to be counted in as moving a non-violent society. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member

... [Interjections.] Its not. [Interjections.]

Ms D ROBINSON: Under a DA administration, we will put the interests of the poor, the marginalised and vulnerable first. Enkosi kakhulu [Thank you very much]. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members can I appeal to you that once it hits red, it means your time

is up; yes. You are at my mercy when I give you some few seconds more. Can I please appeal that we do keep to our time?

Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Hon Chairperson, this time every year, we have made it some sort of a tradition as a nation to utter hallow words and recommit ourselves to the fight against the pervasive and toxic cancer of violent abuse perpetrated by men against women and children. South Africa has one of the highest incidences of women and children abuse in the world.

Early this year, Thembisile Yende was found dead in her office at Eskom, having been missing for almost two weeks. Moreover, just last week, it was argued that the person who was charged with her murder might be exonerated by DNA evidence. In May, a 30-year-old Unathi Madotyeni was found brutally murdered, her eyes gouged out, and raped in Langa Township here in Cape
Town. In May still, a 14-month-old baby was raped and killed by her own father in Khayelitsha, and some in the family wanted this resolved by the family. On 27 April, Karabo Mokoena was killed and burnt by her boyfriend.

Early in May, Iyapha Yamile’s mutilated body was discovered in a toilet just three blocks from her Mankankaza street home in Khayelitsha. Just last week, Manana got off with a slap on his wrist for savagely beating up a woman. This is what happens regularly in between the annual events dedicated to fighting violence against women and children.

What is wrong with our society? What makes men so violent towards women and children? Most cases of sexual violence, in rural areas and in townships go unreported, so the South African Police Service statistics are not a true reflection of the true nature of sexual violence, but they indicate a very horrifying picture of the violence women and girl children are exposed to on a daily basis.

Women do not go to report these cases because more often, the perpetrators of these horrific crimes are colleagues and bosses, husbands, uncles, brothers, and generally people well known to women and children, and on whom women and children depend for income, shelter and food.

So at the center of women and children abuse are economic inequalities, perpetrated by the patriarchal nature of the South African society which still views the contribution of women to society and the economy with disdain. These attitudes lead to the marginalization of women, to women getting paid less than men for the same job, to workplaces that are not women friendly, and in some companies here in the Western Cape for instance, to women being paid with wine by the farmers who support and are supported by the DA. This leads to criminal lords like Baba ka Duduzane thinking they can escape the long arm of the law if they put women they like to leadership positions to block any attempts to bring these criminals to book.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS A T Didiza): Order hon member! You time is up

Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Our branches must reflect new value system, that we want to create a South African free of patriarchy, free of abuse of women and children, and free of all other forms of abuse. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, South Africa’s high levels of violence is deeply rooted in our painful past, a painful past which we have not yet dealt with.

If we accept this, we must accept that we all bear a responsibility to resolve this crisis of violence. And if we move from this premise, we must also ask ourselves, whether our government has played its role.

By Cabinet’s own admission, government’s integrated plan of action to fight gender-based violence has failed.
There are many reasons for this, but fundamentally it’s because we had tasked the Department of Social Development to drive and implement this programme. Yet, we know, that the Minister of Social Development has been so busy manufacturing one Sassa crisis after another, that this integrated plan has received no attention at all.

And when it comes to messages around gender-based violence, there is a glaring lack of consistency from our leaders.

Let’s take only one example - Minister Fikile Mbalula. What did he say about the DJ who allegedly beat his wife with a spanner? He called him a dog and said that he must rot in jail. But what did he say about convicted women abuser Mr Mduduzi Manana? Well, niks [nothing].

What did the entire executive say when Mrs Grace Mugabe beat up a woman in South Africa? Well again, Niks [nothing]. They set her free under the false pretext of diplomatic immunity.

It is no wonder then that our action plan has failed. We cannot say one thing, but do another.

I must therefore ask myself whether we have even gotten the basics right in our fight against gender-based violence.

The answer is simply no.

There are not enough shelters for abused women. Government spends a maximum of R67 on a woman in an abuse centre, while spending R366 on a prisoner in jail. Very

few cases that are reported to the police ever make it to court. Only 8% of rapists are successfully prosecuted.

We cannot fight back, when the basics are not in place. We need a costed, national plan to fight gender-based violence. We need adequate resources for this fight and we need political will. These are the basics that must be in place in order for campaigns such as the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence campaign to succeed.

In conclusion, I am reminded of the words of Tracy Chapman in her song, Behind the Wall, when she says:

Last night, I heard the screaming Loud voices behind the wall
It won’t do no good to call The police always come late If they come at all

Last night, I heard the screaming Then a silence that chilled my soul.

As we stand here, a woman is screaming for help. It won’t help to call the police, because they’ll come late, if they come at all. And because of our failure to get the basics right, somewhere in a home, there will be a silence that will chill the soul.

In pledging our support for the 16 Days of Activism Against Gender-Based Violence campaign, it is my plea that we can and must do more. I thank you.

Mr S C MNCWABE: Hon Chairperson and members, ...


... sibulise koomama bomthandazo esibabonayo, sisithi, siyilento siyiyo, kungenxa yenu. Siyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

There is a saying in Liberia that says, and I quote: “A house where a woman is not safe is not a home.” Today we are debating 16 days of activism against violence directed at women and children - a violence which often happens in private spaces, a violence which betrays trust and love.

According to statistics, in 2016, 51 895 cases of sexual crimes against women and children were reported. More than 900 children were murdered in South Africa from 2015 to 2016. This is according to the Institute of Race Relations. Police statistics reveal that more than 600 children were killed with a knife, while firearms were used in almost 400 cases. Other causes of death involved poison, a booted foot, an axe and boiling oil.

One in five, or 21% of women in a relationship, has experienced physical violence by a partner. Stats SA said in its South Africa Demographic and Health Survey 2016, released in May, that South Africa’s femicide rate is five times more than the global rate.

We have asked ourselves: What kind of society tolerates such outrage? What kind of a society participates in such evil? Unfortunately, the answer is the South African society.

It is a national disgrace that we should debate this shame every year, and every year, the figures are higher

and grimmer. The question is: What can be done to erase this national shame?

The NFP believes that intervention will be required at many levels. At state level, we need to adopt a national strategic plan on gender-based violence, similar to the plan tackling HIV/Aids. The current strategies on confronting violence against women and children are underfunded and not co-ordinated. More resources must be made available. The hand of the South African Police Service must be strengthened through dedicated teams dealing with gender-based violence and violence against children.

At community level we have to be proactive. Every perpetrator of violence against women and children is someone’s father, husband, brother or son. We must break the silence, face the shame and admit, as society, that we are failing our women and children. It is time for civil society, churches, NGOs and the state to join hands and say, enough is enough. Thank you.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chair, hon members, taking advantage of the progressive legal framework and tools at our disposal to fight against the abuse of the most vulnerable, the women and children, we must challenge the normalisation of violence as an expression of masculinity or male dominance in our society.

This kind of social behaviour must be demobilised where it originates - our families and our communities. This includes prevention of exposure to violence and provision of consistent and unwavering support to those affected by violence, in an effort to reduce the consequences and aftereffects.

Through our community and active citizen mobilisation, we must address the intersection between norms that relate to alcohol and drugs and its effect and violence. We must address it.

We must daily engage through well designed and targeted educational programmes. We must reduce backlash by engaging men and boys in gender equality, building relationship skills and social connections that will

reduce the extent and the scourge of violence in our society.

Related to this is the promotion of broader social equality as well as addressing structural discrimination and disadvantages that create and perpetuate the conditions of violence in our communities.


Eyona nto icacileyo yeyokuba isiseko sayo yonke le nto lusapho...

... whether we like it or not. It is how we bring up the boy child, in particular.


Loo nto yenza ukuba athi ekhula nje acinge ukuba ubundlobongela bulungile kwaye buyamkeleka.


It is the engagements that we, as fathers to these boy children ...


... esingakwaziyo ukuzenza.


What we must do as leaders, ourselves ... What we also do is that whenever there are incidents of violence against women, in particular, and children, the male leaders are often quiet. They sit back and wait for the women leaders in our society to be the first ones to speak and condemn those acts before they join in and support.

What we should be doing ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members at the back there.


... bayangxola. La masela.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Hon member on the podium, withdraw what you have said.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: I withdraw it.


Ndakuyiphinda xa ndihleli phantsi.


That is the issue. It is the role that we as ...


... abantu abangootata...


... play in society. I want to say, for instance, we as fathers must engage in this very courageous and sometimes, uncomfortable discussions with our daughters. There was one instance where ...


... umntwana wam kwafuneka atsalele umama wakhe umnxeba eseMpuma Koloni nam, esithi usexesheni. Lo mntwana wakhetha ukuthetha nomama wakhe ndabe ndikhona ecaleni kwakhe. Ndaziva ngaphakathi ndohlulakele kwaye ...


... I had to address that. I had to say ...


... mntwana wam ndahlulakele ndawoni na?


Let us talk about these issues, because ...


... ukuba asizithethi ezi zinto nabantwana bethu, kuquka naba bangamakhwenkwe, baya kuphuncuka ngomso singayazi ukuba kwenzeke ntoni na. Iza kusothusa xa bebetha abantu apha ezitalatweni sibe thina besibetha oomama apha endlwini. Kaloku siye singayithethi phaya ngaphandle ukuba siyababetha oomama. Ngokwenza ngolo hlobo, sizenza ngconwana oku kwekati etshe icala. La masela.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members. Hon Kwankwa, come back to the podium and withdraw that statement.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Do you want me to finish my speech?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): No, I want you to

withdraw what you know you said.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: I beg your pardon. Consider it withdrawn. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, order! I want to advice those members who sit at the back of this House, on the benches in the last row, on all sides, that your voices carry, even if you think you speak quietly. You might not be aware. I actually hear your conversations, even some of those that you don’t want me to hear. [Interjections.] One day, you will be surprise ...


... xa ndinixelela amahlebo enu.


I can hear. So, I am just warning you for future. Don’t think because you are sitting in the last desk ...


... awuvakali apha kum ngaphambili. Nivakala...


... even better than the people sitting in front.

Mr F BEUKMAN: House Chairperson, hon members and fellow South Africans, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa in section 205 states that the objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law. The SA Police Service, SAPS, have a pivotal role to play to ensure that complaints dealing with violence against women and children are properly processed, investigated and court ready dockets are prepared.

In vision 2030 of the National Development Plan it envisages that people living in South Africa feel safe at home, at school and at work, and they enjoy a community life free of fear. Women walk freely in the streets and children play safely outside. The police service is well- resourced and professional, staffed by highly skilled

officers who value their work, serve the community, safeguard lives and property without discrimination, protect the peaceful against violence, and respect the rights to equality and justice.

The ANC in the January 8 Statement of 2017 highlighted the fact that we must do more to eradicate gender based violence and abuse of women and children.

The latest crime statistics paints a stark reality that we face as a nation. In the 2016-17 financial year, 3478 women and children were murdered, of whom 2639 were women, 574 boys and 265 girls.

One of the goals of the 16 Days campaign is to expand accountability beyond the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster to include all government clusters and provinces. Indeed the solution lies with all of us.

The SAPS have legal obligations to attend to the matters of gender violence in general and more specifically, domestic violence. The National Development Plan on page
398 makes the following statement on domestic violence:

Domestic violence is a complex issue which should be addressed in a multi—faceted way. Education of both women and men should be undertaken with social partners and the private sector. The private sector has a very important role to play since work hours and productivity are negatively affected because of domestic violence.

The effective implementation of the Domestic Violence Act, DVA, requires adequate budgeting for which education and awareness training as well as training of police and justice officials are necessary.

The lack of service delivery and compliance has been raised continuously over the past two decades by the departments mandated to oversee the compliance of members of SAPS to the DVA. The function of monitoring the implementation of the DVA resides with the Civilian Secretariat of Police. The visits of Civilian Secretariat of Police, CSP, are aimed at identifying challenges with implementation of the DVA by police stations and to equip the police stations with information on the manner in

which compliance and implementation can be improved focusing on the following areas:
Regulatory compliance; record keeping; and services offered to complainants.

Command and control in the monitoring of the implementation of the DVA are crucial. The lack of consequences for SAPS members failing to comply with the requirements of various instruments is having a very negative effect on the realisation of the DVA. The non- adherence to the legislative requirements of the DVA is denying justice to those who fall victim to domestic violence.

We are of the firm view that the Civilian Secretariat needs to start assessing the reasons for noncompliance with the DVA at all levels of the SA Police Service. At station level, the assessment needs to centre on the lack of consequences to members failing the necessary forms correctly and comprehensively.

Additionally, the research should focus on reasons for Station Commanders not checking the relevant registers

for compliance. At cluster level, the Secretariat must assess the reasons for Cluster Commanders not inspecting the registers at their cluster stations and not addressing the deficiencies with the relevant Station Commanders. Lastly, at National Level, the Secretariat should assess the reasons for Provincial Commissioners not being held responsible for the failure of the management structures under their command and control in being accountable for the noncompliance of the DVA.

The Compliance Forum established between the SA Police Service and Civilian Secretariat of Police at national and provincial level can contribute to improve the effectiveness of the compliance monitoring of the DVA.

There is a vast array of SAPS National Instructions and Standing Orders that provides for minimum standards for the treatment of victims of crime, including the rights to respect and dignity, information and practical assistance, including assistance to people with special needs.

The SAPS Division of Management intervention must step up their efforts of improving quality assurance and interventions to improve performance at station and cluster level.

We have 1143 police stations in the Republic of South Africa. Public representatives at the three spheres of government can play a proactive role in ensuring that SAPS stations live up their duties in terms of the DVA and other relevant legislation.

Members of Parliament should visit the police stations in their allocated constituencies and engage with the Station Commanders on compliance with the DVA.

In terms of Community Policing Forums, the NDP states that focus should be placed on strengthening the oversight functions of CPFs to hold local police management accountable to community needs. The Portfolio Committee on Police has requested the Civilian Secretariat to develop a funding model for CPFs and recommended that the organisational structure of the location of CPFs be reviewed. CPFs should be at local

level the driver to ensure that gender based violence are prioritised and acted upon.

The ANC believes that the professionalization of the SAPS through the implementation of the NDP recommendations is key to ensure better compliance and better performance in responding to the scourge of violence against women and children.

There are eight practical measures that should be prioritised to enable better performance.

Firstly, the management of dealing with complaints pertaining with violence against women and children by Station Commanders, Cluster Commanders should count a greater weight during performance evaluation and performance agreements should be amended accordingly.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon Ollis, I can see that you are in the House. Continue hon member.

Mr F BEUKMAN: Thank you House Chairperson. Secondly, ccompulsory consequence management for all SAPS members

at all levels who do not adequately respond to complaints relating to violence against women and children.

Thirdly, ongoing training and capacity building programmes for SAPS first responders to deal with victims of domestic violence and sexual violence;

Fourthly, more resources to be allocated to the SAPS Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences units;

Fifthly, complainants who do get adequate service should immediately escalate complaints to shift commanders, Station Commanders, Cluster Commanders, provincial Commanders and the National Commissioner, and copy the Civilian Secretariat on the complaints.

Sixthly, the Civilian Secretariat of Police, including the Provincial Police Secretariats, should intensify their station audit roll-out and co-operate with NGOs and civil society to highlight stations that do not adhere to minimum standards of assistance to gender violence victims.

Increasing awareness campaigns countrywide to educate learners at schools, churches and local communities about FCS- campaigns;

Lastly, increase the detection rate of violent crimes committed against women and children and increase court ready dockets to increase prosecutions.

In closing, I want to quote from a speech by President Nelson Mandela that he delivered on 9 August 1996 in Pretoria at a Women's Day event:

Violence against women is a serious and escalating evil in our society. It is both a part of the subordination of women and consequence of that inequality.

Our anger should strengthen the resolve of all of us, inside and outside government, individuals, organisations and communities to join hands with the police in combating crime. Our ultimate victory in the war against criminals depends on the support and co-operation of every sector of society.

We know that the criminals, including those who abuse women, depend on people around them, women as well as men, keeping silent even though they reject what they are doing. The time has come to speak up and expose the criminals.

Only through a partnership with police and those they serve will we truly achieve our goal.

I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms D CARTER: Chair, I commence Cope’s contribution to this debate by quoting from a sermon entitled “But if not” delivered by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. at the Ebenezer Baptist Church in 1967.

I say to you, this morning, that if you have never found something so dear and precious to you that you will die for it, then you aren’t fit to live. You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be, and one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls upon you to stand for some great principle, some

great issue, some great cause. And you refuse to do it because you are afraid.
You refuse to do it because you want to live longer. You’re afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you’re afraid that somebody will stab or shoot or bomb your house.
So you refuse to take a stand.

Well, you may go on and live until you are 90, but you are just as dead at 38 as you would be at 90. And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit.

You died when you refused to stand up for right. You died when you refused to stand up for truth. You died when you refused to stand up for justice.

The message from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr is loud and clear that if we don't take a stand on a matter of great principle such as taking a stand against violence against

women and children, part of us dies individually and collectively as society.

We all must loudly declare: ‘Count me in!’

Chairperson, activists and researchers are at one – that violence against women and children has reached pandemic proportions; that national programmes such as Women's Day or 16 Days of Activism have little if any impact in curbing it; that we have good and progressive legislation but poor implementation; that we have poor support structures for victims; that we have low conviction rates and even lower numbers of victims having the confidence in our criminal justice system to come forward; that there is a lack of political will and leadership.

Fellow South Africans, colleagues and comrades I am calling on you today to take a stand!
If anyone dear and precious to you — a family member, a neighbour or a colleague, is a victim of any form of abuse, physical or mental, stand up for what is right, stand up for the truth, stand up for justice. Stand up and be the change you wish to see. Thank you. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Hon Chairperson, because one of the most heart-wrenching forms of violence against women and children is sexual violence, I thought you may find this discussion thread between a human rights advocate and a media correspondent interesting. The context of the discussion is the distribution of pornography via the internet in South Africa.

The correspondent starts off by saying: Wish our Constitution actually worked for the people when they can actually police the streets, have a justice system that works, and cut out all corruption, then you can start talking about effective ways of limiting certain kinds of online material within reason.

The advocate responds by saying that porn is probably the most pervasive way of devaluing human beings. It further states that in their view, at least, it is as important as the concerning issues that have been raised.

Pornography sends out a culture shaping message about the value of human beings. Some in society may have established internal value systems and may be able to

reject the narrative. Others, however, are profoundly affected and societies - usually the most vulnerable - pay the price.

The correspondent then says, I hear you, yet I would say that the most pervasive way of devaluing humans is to have them starve, with no proper education, with no hope for the future and with no employment. What you mention says the advocate, are the fruit of devaluing – once we have stopped valuing each other properly, we will let these things happen to each other.

The correspondent replies that very few people anyway have even got access to the internet. The prevalence and culture of rape and abuse in our country need fixing well before regulating online porn.

Actually, the advocate points out that on 2016 statistics alone, South Africa is the 20th largest porn consuming country in the world, but it is number one for accessing porn via smart phones. According to research, porn consumption is, in fact, a cause of sexual violence.

To say that porn has no influence on South Africa’s rape and sexual abuse statistics is irrational. Now the disinterest of Members of Parliament and the department in the matter during deliberations on the Films and Publications Amendment Bill has been disappointing for the ACDP, and many others who recognise the connection and the danger. It is, however, indicative of why South Africa has such a huge problem with sexual violence against women and children. The real question should not be which measures are too little or too much to combat sexual violence, but what do we value and care about most.

Now, if the answer to the question is, “Being entertained and sexually aroused,” then we are surely on track. If it is protecting and reducing the risk of women and children becoming yet another victim of sexual violence, we must rethink the issue of pornography and ensure that it does not have the free reign in society that it presently has. In this way, we will demonstrate our commitment to no violence against women and children and not just pay lip service. Thank you.


Nk B S MASANGO: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, ngibingelele omama egalari, ...


South Africa’s government has failed children. As we speak, House Chairperson, there are 11 million beneficiaries on social grants. Over 11 million children live in poverty and 136 children died every month of complications arising from acute severe malnutrition in the last three years. A total of 1,8 million infants and adolescents still do not have access to social grants.
One in three children is the victim of sexual and physical abuse before they reach the age of 18. In KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape, only 19% of child abuse cases were reported to police by social services.

Hon Chairperson, it is quite clear that the government, through the failures of the Department of Social Development, is playing a key role in allowing the abuse of children to persist. What the country is not aware of is that the Department of Social Development and SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, led by their venerable

Minister, are once again placing thousands of lives at risk, as our foster care system edges towards a collapse.

Currently a High Court order, which dates back to a ruling in 2011, which allowed Sassa to pay foster care grants to beneficiaries when foster care placements lapse, will expire at the end of this very year. The court order, which was again extended in 2014, was meant to be a temporary arrangement that would allow Sassa enough time to fix the backlog clogging the foster care system. The Minister was meant to implement a comprehensive legal reform that would ease the process of reviewing foster care placement orders.

Yet, six years later, the backlog remains, and there is still no finalised comprehensive legal reform as the court requested. What there is, however, is growing uncertainty over what this may mean for the payout of the foster care grants. The result is that 30 to 50 thousand children under foster care are at risk of not receiving their grants come January 2018. Once again, hon House Chair, it is another day at Sassa, and it’s another grant

crisis, proudly brought to you by the Minister of Social Development, Minister Dlamini.

This is the same Minister by the way, who, while tasked with the delivering of 17 million grants to our poorest citizens, dodges accountability at every possible turn. While “dodging Dlamini” escape accountability in Parliament, she crisscrosses the country campaigning for the elective conference of the ANC. Why shouldn’t she?
When it is the ANC that allows her to display her disdain for the 17 million South Africans, who rely on social grants, the ANC government only acknowledges a crisis when it is before the courts.

The children and poor households are the most vulnerable citizens, and it is the state’s responsibility to ensure that their constitutional rights are protected. But what we have observed as a country is that the rights of these citizens have been relegated to the periphery, while the ANC continues to drag the country along with it as it self-destructs. Women and children bear the brunt of the scourge of poverty and inequality, and this makes them even more susceptible to abuse. The Social Development

should be at the forefront of the battle against women and child abuse, but the department has been rendered ineffective because the Minister fires any competent officials, whilst retaining those who are willing to do her bidding.

If the department is ever to function in an efficient way at all, one in which R1,4 billion of taxpayers’ money will not be irregularly spent, it must be rid of those who are hellbent on serving their own narrow interests.
As the DA, we will make sure we change things when we take over in 2019. [Applause.]

Mr M P GALO: Hon Chair, there is no denying that women and children are caught up in the vortex of violence, sexual abuse and male chauvinism. This represents the skewed power relations ingrained in our social psyche. On the occasion of the 5th Business Engage Mainstreaming Awards held in Midrand early in September this year, Minister Shabangu raised pertinent questions on gender inclusivity across the spectrum. She has stated and I quote:

At the heart of effective gender mainstreaming is an agenda-setting approach that transforms social practices, attitudes and gendered power relations.
There is also the global market to consider. How do we ensure that gender mainstreaming does not only remain a technical aspect of human resources recruitment policies, but remains a priority for social change?

Hon members, the classification of our problems is handsomely argued by the Minister. The struggle for women emancipation should reinforce the fundamental change in how society underscores the occupation of women in the social, cultural and religious arena. Hon Chair, the AIC has a strong affinity towards the reconfiguration of family values and structures. We believe that solid family structures are a function of a functioning and ethical society.

Minister Shabangu’s work represents the early form of women and child revolution, reincarnating the rigor of our forebears who mounted a revolution against gender discrimination. There are fundamental questions that we

need to interrogate as society, as we manoeuvre towards the journey of affirming the right of women and children. Prominent radio anchor, Redi Thlabi, ask the following questions: Firstly, has society had the conversation about barriers to justice for women who approach the law; secondly, have we fully confronted the entitlement of men in positions of power to young women’s bodies; and thirdly, does the law, with its fixation of the facts, represent the limits of human endeavour? [Time expired.]

Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson, the topic for today’s debate on 16 Days of Activism is based on the idea of a whole of society approach - involvement of all safety stakeholders and working in partnership to reduce violence against women and children - the Minister hinted at this with the important idea of men, as partners. As the slogan of the Western Cape Department of Community Safety says, “Safety is everyone’s responsibility.”

Arguably the most important stakeholder in this safety partnership towards ensuring a less violent country together is the criminal justice system, which resorts under the national government and is therefore a direct

responsibility of the ANC as the incumbent governing party, although not for much longer. Without effectiveness and efficiency in the police and public prosecution services, the efforts of all other safety partners have limited effect at best and, at worst, are rendered impotent. The effectiveness and efficiency of these law enforcement agencies are fundamentally dependent on the quality, competence and calibre of their top leadership and management. On this score, the ANC government has been a dismal failure. [Applause.]

Minister Shabangu completely ignored this travesty. So, I want to say to the Minister that what matters to South Africans, is not the government’s intentions, but the government’s performance and effectiveness. To be honest, I am actually a bit embarrassed for the Minister that she would come up here and trumpet the Namola App, which certainly is a good initiative. I also have downloaded the App last week, although I hope I would never have to use it. But the fact is that an innovation like the Namola App is a direct result and only becomes necessary because of the failures of the SA Police Service, the SAPS, under the ANC government, with police stations who

do not pick up the phones when people in distress call to report crime, and when the 10111 emergency call centres are understaffed and underresourced. That is what causes the private sector and civil society to band together and come up to plug the gap with the innovations like the Namola App.

If I may deal very quickly with the hon Thembekwayo for her attacks on the DA for a dop system on some farms, I put this to youhon member. Who runs the labour inspectorate that is supposed to labour law compliance checks and lay charges against those in contravention? [Applause.]


Abazali be-EFF uKhongolose, khuluma nabo inkinga ilapho.


Ms E N MKALIPHI: Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to be told as EFF that we have cousins here in this House? We don’t have cousins here. We are the EFF here, on our own.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Order! Hon member, take your seat. I am sure the member heard the point.


Mnu Z N MBHELE: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, uma ngingacacisa kahle. Ngithe umzali, hhayi abazala. Umzali! [Ubuwelewele.]


Ms E N MKALIPHI: Still Chair, we don’t have parents here. EFF is a political party on its own, Mbhele. [Interjections.] Please, we don’t have parents here.
Don’t say “hhayi, hhayi” I am correcting you member here.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order! Hon Mbhele, I think you should just stay clear of that because others may just throw the same to you. Let’s proceed with your debate.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson, Police Minister Mbalula is on record that he and Mr Zuma are finalising the appointment process for a new permanent head of Hawks and permanent

National Police Commissioner respectively. The choices of these candidates’ for these positions will demonstrate to the public, how seriously this ANC government takes the crucial need for fit-for-purpose leadership, and therefore professional and effective policing and therefore crime reduction for safe streets and safe homes in South Africa, particularly for women and children.

However, the fundamental problem we face as a country in tackling the scourge is a lack of political will within the ANC national government to do the things required to turn the Police Service around. [Applause.] So, the only solution is for the DA to come into power in 2019. [Interjections.] Whether NDZ or CR17 ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order, hon member!


Mnu Z N MBHELE: Sizowakhiph’ amasela! [Applause.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mbhele, go back to the podium and withdraw that last statement.

Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson, is that not a political statement of debate? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Withdraw! Withdraw just that last word you made. I don’t mind about the rest you said, but just that last word.


Mnu Z N MBHELE: Sihlalo wami ngoba ngiyakuthanda futhi umuhle ngiyahoxa. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: Hon Chair, ke rata go dumedisa [I would like to greet] members of the public, the way you have actually come out today shows how serious everybody in South Africa takes this matter that is being debated today. We as the ANC take the matter seriously and we intend to do whatever is possible to ensure that the scourge of gender-based violence in South Africa is reduced.


Re utlwile dillo tsa lona ka bana ba lona ba bolawang.


Sesizwile ngabantwana benu ababulawayo ...


... and the ANC is ready to fight this war. What is remaining is just to ask ourselves ... [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: ... who will support us ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: ... if we have an opposition like this?


USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk A T Didiza): Bomama kwigalari [gallery] ...


... Order!

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: Hon Chair ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Majake, just take a seat. Order!


Omama abanye bebengekafiki siqala. Bengicelile ukuthi singazishayi izandla, sihlale nje sithule ngoba umsebenzi ngowalaba abaphansi.


I know some of you were late when I advised our guests in the gallery about the Rules that, you are not allowed to participate on what is happening here. So please, even if we feel good, let us not clap our hands. Even if we feel bad, let us not shout from the gallery. Ours is here to observe and listen at the debate.


Ngiyabonga-ke bomama, singaphindi.




Chairperson, I have a point of order. May I address you in terms of Rule 85?


The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION PARTY: We have already had rulings in this House before that war talk is not permitted in the House. Now, the hon member has incited to war, if a member is going to incite to war, you need to bring troops with you unfortunately your troops have not pitched up for the battle today. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order hon member! I will actually look at the context in which that word was used. So, I will come back to the House.

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: Chairperson of the House, it will actually sound like war when we as the ANC are saying, we are serious about fighting the scourge of violence against women and children which you are actually trivialising because whatever you have been coming to say here is just this alarmist approach, this pessimistic approach, you do not create hope in the hearts and minds of South Africans. Whenever you come to the podium, you want to behave towards the ANC and government as if there is something wrong. Always shouting, “fire” “fire” even when there is no fire. You look around you, you see nothing. You use the podium only to campaign, to try and look better as a political party. There will come a time for campaigning but when you deal with issues of this nature, we want the opposition that is there to come and support the ruling party and its programmes. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: As we celebrate 2017 ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: ... as the centenary year of Isithwalandwe (the one who wears the plumes of the rare bird), Oliver Reginald Tambo, we remember what he said, as the president of the ANC on the 14 November 1981 in Luanda, Angola:

We invite the Women’s Section of the ANC and the black women of South Africa, who are more oppressed and more exploited than any section of the population, to take up this challenge and assume their proper role outside the kitchen among the fighting ranks of our movement and its command post.

At the dawn of democracy, the ANC-led government introduced measures that promoted an integrated approach to elimination of the scourge of gender-based violence. The National Crime Prevention Strategy of 1996 inculcated a victim-centred approach in the criminal justice system. Not what we hear, the opposition on my left are actually saying. Hon Robinson, I wonder who wrote your speech. I believed so much in you as a gender activist. You sit in

committees of women but you come here and you do not sound like yourself. You have been sent just to come and have an opportunity of attacking the ANC. Where is your voice about the fights of women? Women of South Africa are getting killed and you come here to grandstand, abuse the podium and say things that, normally, in committees for women, you do not say. I think you must be ashamed of yourself.

Do not talk like hon Mbhele, I understand, he is a man, and this is why he has absolutely nothing to say. He even attacks the app that has been created for women so that women of South Africa can know how to report and have a quick response but of course if you are a man and you do not care, why do have to volunteer yourself to come and actually present on behalf of women. [Applause.] Through the efforts of the ANC-led government, we have seen the enactment of progressive pieces of legislation such as the Domestic Violence Act, Protection from Harassment Act, amendment to the Criminal Procedure Act, Sexual Offences and Related Matters Amended Act and amendment to the Maintenance Act.

We have seen the establishment of Sexual Offences Courts and Community Affairs Unit in the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, such as the victim-centred Thuthuzela Care Centres, TCC. One thing I want to say is that, when it comes to some of the Acts, the Maintenance Act, its is also important because we sometimes get lost in just talking about murder and assault and we sometimes forget things like financial abuse of women. The Maintenance Act has been galvanised to ensure that these men who – some of them who come and grandstand here and want to talk like they understand the plight of women – are actually made to account.

And of course we understand that issues of maintenance are not only about getting money from the men because children are not only the children of men only, they are the children of women and men but mostly it is women who suffer because of men who do not want to maintain and it is based on the kind of history that we come from where women are the ones who mostly do not have funds, the resources. So South Africa, in its fight against gender- based violence and abuse of women has amended even Acts like the Maintenance Act. There is work in progress in

reviewing the 2003 Victim’s Charter in a bid to substitute it with another legislative framework seeking to bring the victim to the centre of criminal justice.

The Department of Social Development of course – the one you are always attacking - I do not know why you were bringing SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, here. Hon Van der Merwe of the IFP, even herself, I heard her talking about Sassa and then hon Mbhele of the DA came, talking about Sassa. Today is not the Sassa day. We know you have got enough ammunition to attack the Minister of Social Development, but for heaven’s sake, today we are talking about how as South Africans we are going to manage to come up with something that will rescue the lives of women and children of this country.

For the Department of Social Development has a lot of other work that they are doing that is so good that you do not have the ability of recognising what they are doing. Their Gender-Based Violence Command Centre, GBVCC, has established a 24-hour call centre dedicated to providing support and counselling to victims of gender- based violence. And by the way also, it is the same

department that is responsible for the register of abusers of women and children. The Department of Justice and Correctional Services through the NPA has been running the Ndabezitha Izimbizo Project which seeks to train traditional leaders, prosecutors and court clerks on domestic violence matters in rural areas.

The report by the ANC Women’s League, ANCWL, Bokone Bophirima Province last Friday, condemned acts of violence reported about the EFF Chief Whip in provincial legislature who is also EFF’s deputy provincial chairperson, who assaulted a female EFF colleague and also threatened to cut off her private parts during a heated argument. The EFF must be decisive in dealing with such barbaric acts and utterances that are a mockery to South Africa’s constitutional democracy. And I know my EFF female colleagues here are liberated. You are not going to allow this to happen right under your noses and not manage to address it.

What needs to be done better now ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Majake, can you take your seat. Hon member, what is the point of order?

Ms N V MENTE: House Chairperson, I have a point of order. No, the point of order is that the member there is talking about issues that she knows nothing about ... [Interjections] and at least if ever we have such in our ranks in the EFF, we deal with it, unlike what you do in the ANC ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms N V MENTE: ... leave a mayor who sexually assault children. Mduduzi Manana is still a member of this House. You are doing absolutely nothing about it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mente! Hon Mente!

Ms N V MENTE: And stop talking about things you do not know.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, when we raise a point of order, once again, we need ... [Interjections.] Mama [Ma’am] Khawula, Ma’am Khawula, this is a point of order that you are requesting but hon Mente you steered clear and decided to enter into a debate with an hon member. I understand what you are saying but I am saying it no longer becomes a point of order once you start to engage in a debate. [Interjections.]

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: I am quite shocked to see a woman pointing fingers, being an apologist for somebody who abuses women, very shocking. [Interjections.] What needs to be done ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJAKE: ... to make it better ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Majake, can you take your seat.

Ms N V MENTE: House Chair, on a point of order: I am not an apologist. I am telling you that you are keeping molesters in the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms N V MENTE: And they are Members of Parliament, you are keeping women abusers in this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!

Ms N V MENTE: I am not an apologist.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can we please take the issues of debate on political conduct, some of which do not relate to this House. Can we please stick to points of order that are appropriate so that we do not end up engaging on matters that we are not supposed to? Hon Chauke, what is the point of order?

Mr H P CHAUKE: Chair, on a point of order: I just want to bring to the House’s attention that in the gallery today we have children that came here to observe and hear to

what the members are saying. Please can we just maintain the decorum of the House in respect of the children that are in the House?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members! Hon members, can we please be in order. I have noted your point hon Chauke, hon Majeke, can you please conclude your debate.

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJEKE: For the children in the gallery,

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): What is the point of order hon member?

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJEKE: We are used to the circus. In this House we continue to do work for South Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Hon Majeke, can you relax? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): What is your point of order? You are not supposed to direct what the member must say.


Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Akakuzwa nje Sihlalo. [Chair]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!


Nk H O MKHALIPHI: Ujahile, isikhathi sezinguquko [reshuffling] isiphelile.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You are not supposed to assist. Can you state your point of order? Yes, what is the point?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, on a point of order: Please also protect us in this House.


Angithi uyasukuma u-commisar Veronica ubiza [call] iphuzu lokukhalima okuphambukayo. [point of order]


And then the member, in the podium, she continued attacking us so we have to defend ourselves Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member ... [Interjections.]

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: No, I am appealing to you to also protect us in this House, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you take a seat hon member. I spoke to all of you as members about the conduct in this debate.

Ms M C C PILANI-MAJEKE: As we proceed, what needs to be done to make it better is; close monitoring of gender- based violence statistics for SA Police Service, SAPS, NPA, courts, correctional centre parole programme in respect of gender based violence taking into consideration also the relatives of the victims that were murdered, to promote coherent country gender-based violence programme with a clear message, it is wrong to murder a woman, its wrong to assault a woman, it is wrong to rape a woman, it is wrong to traffic a woman and turn her labour or a sex slave, it is wrong to financially exploit a woman as a spouse or a partner. I thank you hon Chairperson. [Applause.]


Nk M S KHAWULA: Tshela uZuma lokho ukuthi akayeke ukuhlukumeza abantu besifazane, uKhwezi.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Khawula, you have not been given an opportunity to speak. Can you please be in order?

The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, may I take this opportunity to ...


... ngiqale ngibingelele omama nabobaba abakhona, sibonge kakhulu nomama bomthandazo abaqhubeka ngokuza la bezosixhasa sikhuluma ngezinkinga ezibhekene nabantwana kanye nabantu besifazane. Siyabonga kakhulu ukuba nibe nathi namhlanje, sishiye izindlu zenu ukuze nizoba nathi.


Chairperson, I just want to say that we continue to come here and continue to reflect on issues affecting women when it comes to violence against women and children. I want to say today that the ANC not starting today, always

had clear programmes ... [Interjections.] ... Khawula! Khawula!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Hon members, can we please allow the debate to proceed.



uyisigebengu uzoya ejele.

Ms T STANDER: Chair!


members! Hon members, can we please be in order, I asked you to stop interjection. There is a member who has requested a point of order, what is your point of order?

Ms T STANDER: Madam Chair, I do not have a point of order but I would like to know if the Minister is prepared to take a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): Minister, are you prepared to take a question.


want to say that the ANC has always continued to ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): It means she is not taking your question.


women and as a country ...

Ms T STANDER: Madam Chair, but the Minister ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): Can you take your seat.

Ms T STANDER: ... she hasn’t given me an answer but she has mentioned programmes but nothing about Manana.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): Hon member, can you please take a seat. You asked a question and the Minister proceeded which means that she is not answering your question. So, can you please take your seat.


we in the ANC came ... [Interjections.]


Tshabangu. Yes, hon Mente what is your point of order?

Ms N V MENTE: No, the member on the podium must withdraw isigebengu.


Umam’ Khawula akasona isigebengu, futhi yena okungenani akakabandakanyeki [involved] njengaye owayebandakanye eMarikana.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): Hon Mente, I asked you not to engage in a debate. You are raising a point of order and you are asking the Minister to withdraw the statement that she made and allow the Chair to rule. Do not start to add to your point of order because it cancels the issue that you are actually rising. Hon Minister, you know that you have to raise a substantive matter when there is an issue that you want to raise in

respect of a member. I will ask you that you withdraw the isigebengu word. [Interjections.]

Order hon members! Just allow the Minister and not try and assist in anyway.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): Thank you hon Minister.


I also want this House to note that ...


... owakwa Tshabangu umntwana akayi ejele ngoba akabulalanga muntu, akenzanga muntu, akadlwengulanga muntu.


I think I want to put it on record. Chairperson, the ANC had a clear programme right from its inception. It is the

ANc which came up with the women’s Charter which addressed matters affecting women in this country. As we speak today, we are here because of the struggles of the women of the ANC. We are here because they are the ones who came with policies that protect women, which talks about ensuring that we fight violence against women hence we are proud today that we are rolling out courts which attends to sexual offenses in our country. We will continue ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): Hon members, yes we are allowed to interject, but we are not allowed to make running commentaries. Can we just allow the member to proceed? I am sure she heard you with one hear about closing them down. Continue hon member. Hon Robinson, what is your point of order?

Ms D ROBINSON: I believe the Minister is misleading the House because they are not being rolled out, they are being cancelled.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDZA): Hon member, I would rarely ask that that matter be reflected upon because we

can’t make a ruling on what you are saying, to ask the Minister to withdraw. We will have to look at factually on what you are saying and what she says and then we can make a ruling. Proceed hon Minister.


offences courts are being rolled out by the government of the ANC. We want to put it on record. Chairperson, I want to say that we are here to look at programmes and address the scourge of violence in our country.

Coming to the opposition party which is the DA, they claim to have a programme which intends to address abuse of women. They ran a petition online since August 2016, wristwatches, signatures and they had a target of R50 000 and today they have only done R3 044. What is that? The online petition has not succeeded which intends to protect women. They have failed us. The DA network which they are talking about and which is led by the hon Robinson, she is supposed to be leading. There is no work, we have looked at what you are doing and we can’t see anything.

When we deal with issues of sexual assault by men, what we see today? Where is Archibald who is an MP, what have you done, Edmond, Learnard Max? In one of the issues, an email does ex gate, what have you done to it in making sure that you protect women? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Mbhele comes here and calls himself a shadow minister of police, what does he say, nothing, absolutely nothing.

As the ANC we are decisive, we have dealt with Manana as a party. We have dealt with the mayor of Sedibeng decisively so. When are you going to be decisive? Where are your programmes which address violence against women in our country? We have a programme, the ANC is committed in fighting violence against women in our country. I also want to say that you come here and talk about the Minister of Social Development. As the ANC we continue to prioritise matters of women in terms of empowerment, social challenges faced by our women in our country. We empower women economically, we deal with rural women.

I am proud as I stand here. We are rolling out dialogue, come hon Stander, join us in the Eastern Cape we will be working with traditional leaders who will be joining us

and who will be addressing violence. They are very much concerned. You come here and grandstand, saying nothing and keep on complaining. You cannot. Work with us, where are you? We are working with churches in fighting the scourge of violence. Where are you? I am inviting you, join us and stop talking from this podium. Make sure that you are on the ground. Save our people, save our women.

Where are your programmes as the DA? We have a programme, we have the Women’s Charter, we have various laws that we passed in protecting women in South Africa. We have brought men together. I am very proud of the ANC. We have seen men responding to our programmes. We have seen men committing to fighting violence against women. Over the weekend we had a Men’s Parliament, where were you? Where were the men of the DA? Where were the women of the DA when we met having a national Parliament? Where were you when men and women were marching to protest and make sure that they unite against gender-based violence?

DA, what do you stand for? What do you stand for except complaining? Please stand up, roll up your sleeve, do the work on the ground, come with me. We will be working with

everyone in the whole district of the Eastern Cape. Where are you? When we went to Mpumalanga where were you? When we went to Limpopo, where were you? When we went to Northern Cape, where were you? You were sitting here, the only thing you know is about coming here blah! blah!
Blah! And so what, and so what? Let’s work, come let us go and work on the ground. Thanks chair.

Debate concluded.

House suspended at 11:30

Business suspended at 11:30 and resumed at 14:05.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, may I address you in terms of Rule 92(2) of the Rules of the National Assembly? You will be aware that we have been in correspondence for several days relating to concerns we have around the process that is being used to adopt the Fiscal Framework. We are in receipt of the legal opinion. However, we note that we are in disagreement with that opinion – we don’t think it is a reflection of the

peremptory requirements of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act.

Whilst we appreciate the sentiment of your letter, House Chair, that this Bill needs to be amended in order to fix the time-frame problems that we are running into every year, it has not yet been amended. It is our view that the 30-day period has not yet expired and it’s our considered view that this report is not properly before us in terms of the requirements of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act.

We will, obviously, note the letter that you have sent to us, but we do want it placed on record; and to warn the Parliament that procedure, we believe, is being violated; and that it could affect the process as it proceeds through both Houses. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Indeed, we have received the correspondence from the hon Chief Whip of the Opposition, and after taking legal opinion, we responded. Of course, there’s a different view that is

being held, but your point is noted, hon Chief Whip of the Opposition.



Ms P S KEKANA: Hon House Chair, the Standing Committee on Finance was able to interact on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement with the Minister of Finance, the director-general and the Minister in the Presidency, Mr Radebe, on quite a number of issues. Of course, we agree with the Minister that, given the financial situation confronting South Africa today, we should really change how we interact and how we, as government and its parastatals, behave.

The committee has made observations and we noted on the 2017-18 revised Fiscal Framework that there are, invariably, overlaps between the issues raised in the revised Fiscal Framework and the projected Fiscal Framework. The observations and recommendations in this report should also take into account those made in the

revised Fiscal Framework Report, which we tabled a few days ago.

The majority in the committee believe it is correct for the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, which is based on the National Development Plan, NDP, to be used as a framework to determine the budget priorities, and that this is long overdue. The majority in the committee also agree on the need for a Mandate Paper.

Plans have to shape budgets. This is provided for in the local government legislation in terms of which a municipality decides on its annual budget in terms of its Integrated Development Plan framework. The committee welcomes the proposals to set this out in legislation for the national and provincial government spheres, as well. It will contribute to more coherent planning across all three spheres of government and state-owned enterprises, SOEs, within the framework of the NDP.

So, the committee agrees with the approach by the executive. We are also saying it will provide for Parliament to be more focused in its oversight of the

budget and the performance of the executive. The committee notes the clarification by Minister Radebe that the Mandate Paper does not indicate specific funding allocations, as this is part of the budgeting process led by National Treasury and the Minister of Finance.

The committee has also observed the challenges confronting SAA and other SOEs. We agree with the Minister of Finance on the turnaround approach that has to be embarked upon. However, we also welcome the fact that there is a new CEO and new board for SAA. We hope that, through these new interventions, the situation will turn around.

There are also issues we will look at as we engage with SAA and others, especially as we have seen the operations confronting SAA and the routes that are now being discontinued, and so on. So, those are some of the things that the committee has picked up on and we hope that the new CEO and board will also look at them.

The low economic growth which we have observed means that there will be a R50,8 billion shortfall in tax revenue.

We note that borrowing will shoot up, with nearly 15% of the budget being spent on servicing debt by 2020-21. The shortfall in revenue is projected to increase to
R69,3 billion, in 2018-19; and R89,4 billion, in 2019-20. The budget deficit is projected to grow to R225 billion, in 2020-21, although it is projected to decrease as a percentage of GDP from the projected 4,3%, in 2017-18, to just below 4%, in 2010-21.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms P S KEKANA: This means that, more than ever, we have to focus on the quality and efficiency of spending and more decisively and quickly ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has expired.

Ms P S KEKANA: The ANC supports this report.

There was no debate.

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote:

Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the Minister of Finance, the hon Malusi Gigaba, introduced the proposed Fiscal Framework when he tabled the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement on 25 October 2017, in Parliament. The proposed Fiscal Framework sets out projections of key fiscal metrics, including economic growth, revenue expenditure, the fiscal deficit and national debt over the medium term between 2018-19 and 2020-21.

The facts are, most importantly, that the fiscal deficit is expected to increase from R193,1 billion over the medium term to R225,8 billion. National debt is projected to increase over the medium term from R2,82 trillion to R3,41 trillion. This assumes, of course, that there will be no increases in expenditure not matched by permanent sources of revenue and that there will be no budget blow- ups at zombie state-owned enterprises, such as Eskom.
This, of course, is not a very safe assumption.

What the proposed Fiscal Framework reveals, terrifyingly, is that if government sits back and does nothing, national debt will blow out to R3,41 trillion, or 60% of GDP, in 2020-21. What this means is that debt service costs, which are the fastest-growing item of expenditure, consuming R183,1 billion, in 2018-19; R203,3 billion, in 2019-20; and R223,4 billion, in 2020-21, will squeeze out expenditure on education, health and housing.

We are in danger of becoming a zombie state, with salaries of public servants, social grants and debt service costs consuming 69,2% of revenue, in 2018-19; 69,1% of revenue, in 2019-20; and 69,5% of revenue, in 2020-21.

Despite the terrifying facts, however, the Minister, who would normally announce the level of fiscal effort necessary to stabilise national debt, decided to do nothing because he would not, we were told, sugar-coat the state of the economy, or, as he put it later, he would not do “a Comical Ali” and tell people everything was fine. Well, the fact is that nobody believes the Minister’s explanation, and the resignation of Michael

Sachs confirms that there is something horribly wrong at National Treasury.

What is of so much concern is that the hard decisions about the level of fiscal effort required to stabilise national debt over the medium term have been deferred to next year and will be taken by a new and mysterious Presidential Fiscal Committee. The decision not to take a decision should never have been an option, because there is no reason to believe that, following a bruising governing party election, the executive will be any more capable next year of making the hard decisions necessary to stabilise our public finances in South Africa. Things have, in fact, got so bad that we are now not even sure if government has not abandoned fiscal consolidation and its central fiscal objective, which is to stabilise national debt, in favour of a populist, spend-now, pay- later fiscal policy, under President Jacob Zuma.

We face the biggest fiscal crisis since the global financial meltdown, and must now take decisive action to boost economic growth by implementing a package of short, sharp, structural reforms to build business confidence

and stimulate private investment; to stabilise public finances by implementing a comprehensive spending review; by reforming zombie state-owned enterprises; by putting the national airline into business, rather than rescue, with a view to stabilising and privatising South African Airways; and mitigating significant, long-term fiscal risks by terminating the nuclear build programme.

Only this will give hope to the 9,4 million people who do not have jobs or who have given up looking for jobs in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M N PAULSEN: Chairperson, the EFF has warned in the past that the fiscal framework to satisfy rating agencies Moodys, Standard & Poor’s and Fitch in New York under the guise of commitment to fiscal consolidation, the new IMF and World Bank code words for austerity measures: the privatisation of state-owned companies and the outsourcing of basic services such as water, electricity and sanitation, will only condemn the poor while the few continue to benefit. Only when there is a focus on redistribution to give more to the poor and workers, prioritised state-led industrialisation and the building

of state capacity will we see a purposeful and meaningful fiscal framework, which we as the EFF will support.

But, today, allow us today to provide concrete clarity on this issue which seems to confuse Mr Zuma and his Minister of Energy - self-inflicted confusion for the sake of state capture and for looting to continue. While the proposed fiscal framework is ideologically misguided, it is clear on one thing: there is no space for a nuclear deal, not next year, not in 2020 and not in 2021. In Mr Malusi Gigaba’s own words: “Nuclear is both unaffordable and unnecessary.”

We provide this clarity precisely because the confusion will not only delay and interrupt the prioritisation of essential services to the poor, but also because South Africans need fee-free quality education, fee-free quality higher education, an increase in social grants, improved conditions in hospitals and clinics, more houses for the poor and workers, and clean water.

What we must all be concerned about at this point in time is the collapse of governance and looting and Eskom

running out of money. Eskom is a significant risk to the proposed fiscal framework, and, if as Parliament, we do not intervene and stop payments to Gupta-owned companies and their associates, we will pay a far greater price as a country. Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, the NFP welcomes the report tabled here today on financial and fiscal policy. The NFP welcomes the proposal to prioritise budgets in line with the National Development Plan through the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.

We also welcome the Minister of Finance’s resolve that we need to boost and restart business and investor- confidence. Minister, in order to do that, we need to create jobs and cut down on expenses, specifically on fruitless and wasteful expenditure. The decline in revenue is a matter of concern and we call on the SA Revenue Service to address this matter urgently.

The performance of state-owned companies is also having a negative impact on public finances. But, we must add, having met with the CEO and the board of SA Airways –

and, I think, after the deliberations that took place, including this morning - we are quite confident and satisfied that we are now on the right track and that they will bring SA Airways to profitability in a very short space of time. However, they cannot achieve this if we all don’t work together in being able to achieve that.

While the Auditor-General’s office estimates an amount of R100 billion is lost annually through corruption, fraud, theft and wasteful expenditure, the NFP is of the opinion that this amount is in excess of R200 billion.

The NFP calls on government to introduce a state bank in South Africa to assist in alleviating poverty, making loans easily affordable to the poorest for housing, small businesses and other basic necessities ... [Inaudible.]
... a very low interest rate at the existing banks ... [Inaudible.] ... ignore the needs of the poor and the vulnerable. Therefore ... [Inaudible.] ... only on profits in the industry.

We call on lifestyle audits of all public representatives to prevent the looting of state resources. We call on

government to consider seriously the need to provide quality tertiary education, ensuring that the quality of secondary education is also improved simultaneously.

We call on government to address the high cost of travel internationally by public representatives of all levels of government. Hon Minister, this is something to take note of because there appears to be a lot of wasteful expenditure on overseas travel, even though it is known that we have some of the best practices and mechanisms throughout the world. We seem to travel overseas to learn.

The high levels of inequality must be addressed and must be addressed as a matter of urgency, failing which the people will have to rise up to demand what is rightfully theirs. The NFP maintains that the budgeting process must start from the lower level. What seems to be happening is that it is a top-down approach, not a bottom-up approach. As a result, we are not addressing the needs of the people. The NFP supports the report tabled here today.
Thank you.

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the MTBPS, was tabled against a background of slow economic growth and battling with coming out of junk status in dealing with the issues around the downgrades in South Africa. These realities, therefore, before us demand that we are strong in our resolve and committed to our own commitments and clearly focused in terms of what it is that needs to be done.

But how do we do this when Eskom continues to be the playing field for corruption? How do we do this when state-owned enterprises, SOEs, are the playing field for corruption? Regarding SA Airways, for example, hon Minister, we want to emphasise again, particularly after Scopa went on a working visit to SAA, that Sars told us categorically that in their own work as revenue they generate R30 billion. When it comes to expenditure, it seems as if from there we just go wayward and it becomes a runaway train. So the money is being generated, which is good, but when we have to spend, our spending priorities are not consistent with development. So, we need to plug the hole; otherwise, we will end up throwing national solutions to nonfinancial problems. So, the

airports that are there need that kind of discipline from management, from the leadership and from government to ensure that we do not generate internal wasteful expenditure which is unnecessary.

Hon Minister, you still need to provide further clarity to South Africans and the world in terms of the conflicting views of, on the one hand, the presidency’s radical economic transformation, whatever that may mean; and, on the other hand, the inclusive-growth approach of Treasury. This kind of policy inconsistency, of course, is a big problem.

The decline in revenue generation speaks to shortcomings at Sars, but also, at the same time, to the reality of the shrinking tax base and the increasing high unemployment rate. Unemployed people cannot pay taxes.
The few that are there have to pay taxes which have to be stretched over those who are unemployed, thus increasing the capabilities of the social programme. So, we need to create the jobs in order to generate the taxes and, most importantly, to ease the burden on the taxpayers insofar as the social programmes are concerned.

Further, as the IFP, we want to express our concern at the prevailing capture of the budgeting process and the reality which has come out in which the presidency has created a mega giant in the form of Goliath who has now, in one way or another, taken over that budgeting process. This does not augur well for checks and balances in government.

So, the capabilities of the state must be built up. The capabilities of our state-owned entities must be built up. The economy needs to grow. We need to generate the jobs so that we can focus on the real issues before us: service delivery and the development of ... [Inaudible.] [Time expired.]

Mr W M MADISHA: Thank you, hon Chair. Minister, if you listening, please ... The proposed fiscal framework has been presented in the context of sustained, stagnating economic growth, progressively tightening fiscal conditions and poor revenue collection prospects, much of which is entirely self-inflicted, and self-inflicted through the gross mismanagement, if not sabotage, of our economy, poor fiscal decisions, bad and corrupt

governance of the state, what amounts to irrational and criminal leadership at the apex of our state, and state capture particularly of Sars and now of our entire Treasury.

Cope is concerned that government appears to have abandoned its commitment to fiscal consolidation. Without sustained growth, this situation will become fiscally unsustainable and will result in a sovereign downgrade.
Cope is concerned that there appears to be no plan or political will moving forward to remedy this worsening situation; no plan to tackle institutionalised corruption; no plan to stop the sabotaging of our economic prospects or to make definite plans for meaningful growth; no plan to stop the wide emptying of the revenue collection capabilities of Sars or to resolve its growing integrity problems; no plan to stop the nefarious attacks on the Office of the Chief Procurement Officer; and no plan to reduce our bloated, inefficient and ineffective state. Even the number of Ministers has got to go down. We need to talk about that.

Our lack of growth and revenue shortfalls, as a consequence of political and governance failures, lies squarely at the feet of the ANC and, unless our economic and fiscal situation improves, we may well face a debt trap and have to pawn our sovereignty to obtain a bailout.

Finally, it is clear that the biggest hindrance to our fiscal health is the poor bankrupt governance of the ANC, the ruling party. Therefore Cope rises to say: We don’t support this. Thank you very much.

Mr Y I CARRIM: Comrade Chair, comrades and friends ... How many minutes do we have? [Interjections.] Yes.
Firstly, I think the committee has agreed ... not I think

... in fact it has agreed that what is in the Money Bills Act requires treatment of both aspects, the revised fiscal framework for the financial year, in this case 2017-18, but also the projected fiscal framework or the proposed fiscal framework for the next three years.

Since 2009 we have presented one overall report on both aspects. This year, at the insistence of the DA, we

separated the reports but then we argued that there is an inevitable overlap between the revised fiscal framework and the proposed fiscal framework, and it is difficult to separate them because if people come for public hearings they include both aspects. We can’t expect them to come to Cape Town, make submissions on the revised fiscal framework and then come back on a separate day for public hearings on the proposed fiscal framework. So there is invariably an overlap. In the processing of the amendments to the Money Bills Act which we will report on to this House early next year, we have suggested that we need to review that. What happens is that we are having the same debate now as we had last week on the revised fiscal framework. So there has to be clarity from the Rules side on why it is that we have two debates which overlap substantially and all of us repeat the same issues, not least us in the ANC. I think we need quite substantial delineation of the proposed fiscal framework
— the three-year one — and the revised fiscal framework.

Secondly, on the issues raised by the DA in the committee and raised by Mr Steenhuisen today, the lawyers from Parliament said there is the word, after. However, the

meaning of the word is not that you have to wait for

30 days. The after was really meant to mean within

30 days, otherwise it makes no sense. After 30 days could imply that we could decide on this next year. So the lawyer — and I speak on behalf of the legal services unit here since they don’t have a say — explained that there is a precedence for the use of the word after to mean within. If I recall correctly — and I stand under correction here — he referred to a Constitutional Court case that dealt with that. When I spoke with the Members of Parliament, MPs, when I ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order. Chairperson, I didn’t want to get into this. It’s in terms of Rule 92(2) in terms of the procedure. The procedure that the hon Carrim is reading out is not a correct interpretation. We have had a correct interpretation from our own senior counsel.

I would advise him that these are the same lawyers that misadvised him on Nkandla and a host of other matters where Parliament has lost every case that it has fought, precisely because it gets given bad advice like this.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolic): No hon member. That is not a point of order. It’s a point of view.

Mr Y I CARRIM: I am reporting on what happened in the committee and I repeat ... As the chairperson it’s my job to do so. So here it is.

Mr ... I won’t mention ... The legal services unit argues that it’s clearly meant to be within. When I spoke to the MPs that shaped the Money Bills Act ... Now colleagues and comrades, you must remember that Parliament does not have the technical expertise, the drafting expertise or the experience that the executive has. When I spoke to the MPs that were responsible for the finalisation of this Act they said to me in 2014 that yes, the after was meant to be within. It was rushed ... the Bill ... towards the end, if I recall, of the 2004-09 term of Parliament. We have already agreed to make it within and we will vote on that matter.

So, I don’t think there is any issue of the time. The issue is how you separate the amended fiscal framework

for this current year as it happens to be and the three- year one.

The second point to make is that even though we have two debates and even though now we will have a separate briefing on the matter, there will be no material outcome that is substantially different. The fact that we speak the way that we do in this debate merely confirms that.
Almost every member who has spoken, spoke about the revised fiscal framework and the proposed fiscal framework in the same breath.

Now to deal with some of the issues that was raised by members with regard to the proposed fiscal framework, to the extent that one can separate it from the amended fiscal framework for this financial year.

Firstly, the Minister was very clear that it doesn’t inevitably follow that in the outer year — the third year of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework — you will have a 60% debt to gross domestic product, GDP, ratio. He said very clearly, in answer to a pointed question to him, that if we achieve the structural reforms that not only

National Treasury but government as a whole must do, then we will not necessarily achieve that.

Secondly, I’m repeating in some sense what we said in the last debate, that in fact we can do a lot, not just the executive but Parliament too, to ensure that we don’t reach that eventuality. The Minister was very clear about that. Parliament has a responsibility to hold the executive to account on that.

The Minister is quoted as saying that we are not going to procrastinate and that we ought to act, and so it is our job ... We can’t just leave it to the executive and whinge and whine. If we do our job properly the executive will be in a better position to ensure that we do not reach that 60% ratio.

The next thing to say is on SA Airways, SAA. We have discussed this ad nauseam. As a committee — the majority
— we are saying yes to equity partnership. We are saying yes to managerial expertise from the private sector. We are saying yes to a variety of forms of private-sector participation in SAA, but no to the privatisation of SAA.

Minister, on the matter of the SA Revenue Service, Sars, we welcome the commission you have proposed. We are very interested to see its success. That partly depends on the terms of reference, on who is appointed as the judge, on what support services are given to this commission and by what deadline they must finish. Obviously, you know full well that the Davis Tax commission has already done some work in this regard and there shouldn’t be an undue overlap.

On the relationship between growth, radical economic transformation and inclusive growth, that’s been covered ad nauseam. The relationship between transformation and growth is again in our report.

On the issue of state capture, Parliament is, right now as we sit here, dealing with this matter. We need to do more. The Minister himself has come out to say that.

On the issue of us having gone horribly wrong and so on, and the figures that the Minister has brought to our attention in the open and transparent way that he is required to do, you can’t have your cake and eat it. On

the one hand as the DA you will suggest that the executive is ... [Inaudible.] ... yet when the executive is open and transparent you say look these are all the problems. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

Question put.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolic): Order. I would like to remind members that they may only vote from their allocated seats. Order hon members! When requested to do so, members must simply indicate their vote by pressing the appropriate button. If a member inadvertently presses the wrong button, the member may thereafter press the correct button.

Hon member, take your seat! You are disrupting the voting process. [Interjections.]

Order hon members! [Interjections.] Order hon members! Order! Order!

I’ll repeat. Order hon members! [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Hon members, order! When requested to do so, members must simply indicate their vote by pressing the appropriate button. If a member inadvertently presses the wrong button, the member may thereafter press the correct button. The last button pressed will be recorded as the member’s vote when the voting session is closed.

The question before the House is that the report of the Standing Committee on Finance be adopted. Are all members now in their allocated seats? Voting will now commence.
Those in favour of the report should press the yes button. Those against should press the no button and those wishing to abstain should press the abstain button.


Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolic): Hon members, before I proceed to the next Order, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of a delegation led by the hon Ayo Omidiran from the committee on national security of Parliament of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. Welcome hon members and I hope you have a fruitful visit. [Applause.] Thank you.





that all these Reports be adopted by this House.

Question put.

Agreed to.


(First Reading Debate)


(First Reading Debate)


– SEC 75)

(Second Reading Debate)

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, hon members, let me upfront request the indulgence of the members to adopt these three Reports. On the Monetary Bill, let me explain upfront to the South African public and I want to communicate in Sesotho.


Ke batla ho hlalosetsa balefi ba lekgetho hore ha o amohela tjhelete e ka tlase ho milione ya diranta, diphetoho tsena tseo re di etsang Molaong ona, ha di ho ame. Molao ona o etsa diphetoho bakeng sa batho ba ruileng, ba amohelang tjhelete e ngata.

Mmuso o etelletsweng pele ke ANC o ke ke wa lefisa bafumanehi lekgetho empa lekgetho le tla lefshwa ke batho ba nang le tjhelete. Ke kahoo Molao ona o tlang ho lefisa lekgetho la 45% batho ba amohelang R1,5 million.


Personal Income Tax in relation to the tax and monetary rates will only affect those who above R1,5 million. So, there should not be discussion that relates to whether we are going to apply Personal Income Tax to the poor.

Secondly, we are also trying to nail those who are withholding Dividend Tax.


Baheso, batho ba ruileng ba mona Aforika Borwa ha ba batle ho lefa lekgetho, kahoo, ba etsa hore ho be boima ho rona jwaloka mmuso re kgone ho thusa bafumanehi.


We are going to nail those who withhold Dividend Tax by imposing 15% to 20% on dividends. So, we are for you. . .


Le lefeng ho seng jwalo le ya teronkong.


With regard to Tax Administration Laws, concerns were raised and I need to be very upfront that the SA Tax Association even made a unique presentation by coming to the Committee to engage us on these matters, but when we spoke to issues that related to withholding refunds in specific. . .


Sars e ke ke ya re banka ya hao e tshware tjhelete ya hao ntle le haeba ho na le . . .


. . . a suspicious transaction that has been observed. So, when it relates to this, the banks will only freeze the refund amount that has been deposited in your account. Your entire account will not be frozen on the basis that there is an investigation on suspicious transaction.


Ha o ba bona ba tshohile tje, ba tseba hore ha ba fumane tjhelete ya puseletso ya lekgetho ka tsela e lokileng.
Batho ba etsang tseo ha se bafumanehi, bafumanehi ha ba kope tjhelete ya puseletso ya lekgetho hobane tjhelete eo ba e amohelang ha e ba dumelle ho fumana tjhelete ya puseletso ya lekgetho tse kgolo.


Only suspicious transactions that relates to refunds will be withheld and it will not be a process of more than a week to investigate such transactions. Hon Mhlongo, don’t worry, it will not affect you in this case.

With regard to Tax Loss Amendment Bill,

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Chair, I rise on a point of order to find out since when members are addressing other members in this House?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please continue and address the Chairperson when you are addressing the House.

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Hlophe is just trying to be. . .

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just continue with your speech hon member.

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, let me not into that because I know she want to start a difficult thing that she won’t sustain anyway.

In relation to. . .

Ms H O MKHALIPHI: Chair, I rise on a point of order that she is attacking me unnecessarily. [Interjections.] I am saying to her that she must not address members in this

House and correctly so Chair, you reprimanded her. But again, she took the podium and attacked directly.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Tobias, get on with the speech, please.

Ms T V TOBIAS: Chair, I will address myself to Members of this House and hon Mhlongo is one of them. In relation to anti-avoidance measures, let me explain this issue because there was an extensive discussion. If a South African holds a controlled foreign company, it is also subjected to the South African Tax Laws. There are people here who want to say that if you are a South African but your country is foreign controlled you must not pay tax - really? That’s why people take money away from the South African shores and send it outside because they want to pay tax as part of avoidance measures. We say as the ANC we will make sure that all those companies held by foreign trusts and foundations, whose financial statements form part of consolidated financial statements as defined, of the South African resident companied be treated as controlled foreign company for South African tax purposes.

Based on the comments received during our public hearings, a meeting was held on 18 September to clarify this. In order to mitigate any unintended consequences, we said that if it happens that there are affected parties, some provisions in this legislation will be deleted. So, the matter should not even arise today in the discussions.

Hon members, having presented that, hon Mahlangu will also speak to the health promotion. Minister, we are very happy that this levy has been imposed. She will elaborate why there was a need for that and we hope that the House as it stand all of it, will not support it and not call for a division. I thank you.

Mr R A LEES: Hon House Chair, the South African economy is in a worse mess than it was even after the 2008 financial crisis. Economic growth has all but stalled and is predicted to achieve a minimal growth of 0,7% in 2017-
18. This is far less than the growth required just to provide jobs for the new entrants into the job market from schools and tertiary education.

Unless there is a dramatic change in economic policy, the number of unemployed South Africans will likely surpass
10 million people in 2018 – a very sobering thought indeed.

In the midst of an unemployment crisis it is inconceivable that taxes are to be increased. There is already a projected revenue shortfall of R 50,8 billion and the proposed increases in taxes will, without doubt, dampen economic growth and could conceivably result in less rather than more tax revenue.

South Africa has a corporate tax rate of 28%. This compares poorly with the world average of 22,96%. What we should be doing is encouraging investment by reducing taxes not increasing them. The effective taxation on individuals is to be increased by not
adjusting tax brackets to compensate fully for inflation and thus allowing tax bracket creep.

In addition, the introduction of an additional tax bracket for earners above R1,5 million will tax them at a marginal rate of 45%. An egregious increase in taxes is

the proposed back-dating of Dividends Withholding Tax to

22 of February 2017. This means that the tax increase from 15% to 20% - not a penalty but a tax increase - is to be implemented in the prior tax year despite no such announcement nor change in rates having been made at the time of the 2016-17 Budget in February 2016 nor the Medium-Term Budget Statement in October 2016.

This undermines confidence in the tax system and will add to the decline in tax morality. The proposed taxation of South African taxpayers working abroad, despite them meeting all the requirements not to be defined as South African tax residents, faced considerable resistance and was consequently watered down by way of an exemption threshold of R 1 million and implementation delayed to the 2021 tax year. In the end, this additional taxation remains in place in principle.

The Health Promotion Levy is not, on its own, the panacea to obesity. However, it should be part of a bundle of initiatives, particularly of an education and awareness nature, that should be introduced across different disciplines.

The new requirement for a capital gains tax calculation to be done every time there is a change in conditions of debt especially by a holding company in favour of a subsidiary where the subsidiary is financially distressed and is done to enable the subsidiary to assume a Going Concern status is counterproductive.

The financially distressed subsidiary would reflect a taxable gain on which tax may be payable even if the subordination were of a temporary measure which is to be reversed in a subsequent tax year.

The obligation to be placed on banks to freeze tax and VAT refunds paid to their clients for two days and to inform SARS if they suspect that the refund was illegal is bound to lead to hardship for some perfectly honest taxpayers.

South Africa is in the midst of an economic crisis not seen in this democratic South Africa. Debt levels are spiralling out of control as a result of reckless spending and unprecedented levels of fraud and corruption.

Because SARS takes a considerable amount of time to complete audits and, as confirmed by the Tax Ombud, uses the tax laws to delay refunds, the likely default position of SARS when alerted by a bank will be to instruct the bank to pay the refund back to SARS.

This will then start the inevitably activate the 30 day cycle of SARS calling for documents and more documents whilst the taxpayer has to face an unnecessary cash shortage in which extreme circumstances could lead to the business failing and the associated job losses.

The bottom line is that expenditure reprioritisation and cuts are what should be the focus of government. The reckless issuing of government guarantees to State-Owned Enterprises such as the R 19,1 billion wasted on South African Airways, is now coming home to roost.

Coupled to the expenditure reprioritisation and cuts, there has to be a deliberate reduction in taxes that will help to stimulate economic growth and the creation of jobs.

The DA supports the Taxation Administration Laws Amendment Bill but cannot support the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill and the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill. Thank you House Chairperson.

Ms N V MENTE: Chair, amongst other amendments, the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill attempts to deal with the issue of aggressive tax avoidance. The Amendment Bill does this by insignificant reforms while it leaves the current Tax Policy Framework intact. The current Tax Policy Framework makes it possible for companies across all sectors, in particular, mining and financial sector, to aggressively avoid tax and move as much as possible to the tax havens.

The current Tax Policy Framework makes it possible for the rich to use trusts to avoid paying tax. As if this is not enough, we have SARS, the HAWKS, the Reserve Banks and the Financial Intelligence Centre that has not arrested and prosecuted not even a single person for aggressive tax avoidance and illicit financial flows in South Africa under the ANC government.

We proposed a government cross agency task team with capacity and legislative powers to access annual financial statements and companies’ tax planning to ensure that SARS, Reserve Banks, Financial Intelligence Centre, FIC and Treasury do not continue to work in silos.

We welcome the Health Promotion Levy, sugar tax and we encourage SARS to collect maximum sugar tax in an efficient and definite manner. Our consumption of sugary drinks has increased by a whopping 9% between 1999 and 2012. All this has cost our country R3,6 billion this year alone, to treat diagnosed cases of diabetes. It will cost the country R11 billion to treat diabetes by 2030 if infection rates are kept at just 7% of the population.

If no preventative measures are put in place and diabetes cases rise to 35% of the population, we are looking at over R56 billion a year being spent only on treatment of diabetes. Therefore, the Minister of Health, we need to assist them by consuming less sugary drinks. We must be very worried about the state of SARS because it will not serve any purpose to make laws that will be undermined by

a man-made tax administration crisis. If there is VAT due to companies, SARS must pay on time. If there is tax due to tax payers; and money due to tax payers, SARS must pay on time. If there is investigations that SARS must conduct, including tax payers who are politically connected, SARS must carry those investigations efficiently.

Clearly, this is not happening at SARS and as a result, we are starting to see the consequences. One of the consequences we now know for a fact is that SARS is going to miss revenue collection target; something that we must all consider as the threat to a state security. SARS is far greater institution to South African government and its ability to deliver taxes.

The money we need to build houses, the money we need to deliver water, the money we need to pay social grant, the money we need to deliver quality health care services, all of it must be collected by SARS. SARS must also stop intimidating the Auditor-General by using the courts because they want to commit corruption. Please stay away from the Auditor-General. Thank you. [Time expired.]


Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngithokoza kakhulu mhlonishwa Sihlalo, ...


At the outset one must address the issue of the new Health Promotion Levy, the so-called sugar tax, which is of course as a result of the growing non-communicable and diseases obesity concerns in South Africa. These impose heavy costs on the public health system and are generally debilitating and often lead to low life expectancy.

The health tax above explicitly increases tax and sugary beverages and encourages behavioural changes to towards healthier lifestyle but the big question before us is that apart from this levy, what else is being done by the Department of Health to create awareness around the adverse health consequences of sugary beverages.

Obesity strategies should be developed and the public should be made aware of the Health Protection Levy through publicising in variety of ways and languages. Therefore, whilst the IFP supports the new sugar tax, we want to say that it is not a silver bullet, it needs to

form part and parcel of a comprehensive health strategy to deal with the realities of diabetes, obesity and other related diseases which results from the fact that the country’s sugar consumption is at an all time high.

This of course must then translate to children at school exercises and so on because ...


... Izingane zingama ...


... couch potatoes these days. They are not doing anything thus we are breeding really and even at home children who are not cautious of their health realities. So this tax on its own is not enough.

Secondly, it is unfortunate that this tax is not ring fenced for health purposes; it would have helped that this money being generated goes into health problems, now treasury says we do not collect tax for ring fencing. The collection of taxes in the absence of a disciplined and prudent spending pattern on our part is going to cause

problem. We are going to end up collecting taxes but we are failing to spend them accordingly. The issue of capacity at SARS on its own remains a major problem as far as the IFP is concerned.

The State-Owned Enterprises which were once national assets have become national liabilities. If something is not done, they will continue to be a problem and they will continue to be a burden and in the absence of consequences breeds these kind of culture of non- accountability therefore consequence management needs to form part of the discourse moving forward.

We welcome the taxes increased around alcohol and tobacco and we also welcome the fact that the Bill includes changes such as the 45% on taxable income of above
R1,5 million. [Time expired.]

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chair, the NFP supports the report tabled here today. The matter before us is whether it will affect the poor but clearly this is an attempt to take from the rich and give to the poor. The Dividends Tax is one of such means to attract revenue to address

inequality of the past. The basis of suspicious will only freeze the amount in dispute. Remember, what the Minister saying very clearly is that only when there is an amount that is in dispute, the banks will freeze this amount, that specific amount not the entire account. In a few days the matter will be resolved and once the matter is resolved, and if nothing untoward happen in that account then the money that came was entitled to the bank holder, then obviously it will be released.

The assurance that SARS will not cost undue delay and cost inconvenience to our tax payers, the hon Minister while we welcome this, we must ensure that this is actually implemented so that it does not have a negative impact on businesses and private individuals.

What is clear is that there is a great abuse in South Africa by tax payers especially in manipulating the system because there are weaknesses in the SARS system and the tax revenue system in collecting. That is why you would find a lot of money leaves South Africa even by foreign businesses because a lot of them don’t even have bank accounts and they conduct their businesses as cash

business and what do we actually find? They don’t actually pay taxes. That is a very serious problem.

Also, it’s only fair that if you conduct business in South Africa and you are a foreigner and you own business, then you must pay the taxes too like everybody else. You have an equal liability and responsibility to the people of South Africa. The NFP supports all efforts to take away from the rich and give to the poor. That is not negotiable. What we welcome is the Health Promotion Levy and we must commend the Minister of Health on his policy of wanting to prevent rather than cure.

South Africa has an obesity rate of 63%. Diabetes is at the moment the third highest killer and what the Minister is doing in restricting sugary beverages and putting in the tax is number one in reducing consumption and number two to take that revenue. Have health promotion marketing strategies and also ensure that whilst we are doing that, you are educating people so that they know that they must stay away from these things and to also reduce the consumption. Business is only interested in profits. The NFP supports the report tabled here. [Time expired.]

Adv A D ALBERTS: Thank you Chairperson and Minister. Given the financial crisis that South Africa is experiencing — a situation wholly created by the ANC government — these Bills represents further nails in South Africa’s financial coffin. They represent a system of state capture whereby the taxes that we honest taxpayers give to the fiscus will be used, not to assist in the creation of an enabling environment for business to create jobs but to spirit money away to the Guptas and service providers that cannot deliver, except for having superb broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE, credentials.


Die Minister moet in ag neem dat hy tans in die oog van ’n perfekte storm, wat die invordering van belasting betref, instaar. Die omgewing vir belasting het drasties verander omdat belasting-moraliteit en die besigheidsomgewing verander het. Dit is twee faktore wat verreken moet word en wat die volgende boodskap aan die regering stuur.


Firstly, the business environment has become so negative that the economy is contracting. We have hit the Laffer curve where high taxes lead to less business investment.

Another reason is the captured ANC government’s poor fiscal and business policies, and the plundering of state resources.

One can understand why businesses struggle to survive. A South African businessman in the financial services sector who moved his business to the UK asked me last year why the ANC government hates business. All he wants to do is to stay in South Africa, create a thriving business and create employment. I could not answer him. Perhaps the Minister can explain why they view business as the enemy that deserves destruction.

As for the middle class – the largest contributor to the fiscus – we can only assume that they are treated with disdain by this government and the SA Revenue Service, Sars, as they are the class that must be destroyed. Sars has engaged in a full-blown war against individual taxpayers. Sars is also being used as a political tool to

settle scores. There is probably not an opposition Member of Parliament here that is currently not being audited.

Secondly, it is our view that we have already engaged or entered into a stage of a spontaneous and silent tax revolt. Taxpayers do not want to subsidise a captured state. The individual tax burden has breached the point where the high taxes lead to fewer collections. Even Canada has now reached that point but this is happening at a 33% upper tax level. In South Africa, we are fast heading towards 50% with further dire consequences.


Die Minister moet verstaan dat die belastinguitdagings ‘n maaksel van sy eie party is. Dit gaan nie verander totdat daar ‘n nuwe regering in 2019 verkies is nie. Ons sal egter voortgaan om almal wat aandeel hieraan het te ontbloot en verantwoordbaar te hou.

Mr M W MADISHA: Hon Chair, thank you very much. Firstly, let’s start with the objective. I wish to say that whilst Cope supports the objective of the Health Promotion Levy to reduce the incidence of noncommunicable diseases and

efforts to reduce obesity, a known risk factor for these diseases, we are concerned about the proposed implementation of this tax on sugar and sweetened beverages; this at a time when we face ... economic prospects, rampant unemployment and poverty.

Cope has raised this particular point of poverty and unemployment because whether we like it or not, whether we accept it or not, we are faced with very, very serious problems.

Whether we agree, and I know the ANC has always said

27% and so on and so on of people in South Africa are not employed ... that is not the truth. We talk of about more than 40% of the people in our country who are not employed and these are the people who are supposed to be working in those particular areas.

You talk about poverty which is extremely high and people don’t have anything to eat, and for them to eat they’ve got to sell their bodies or their souls, etc.

Now, if we were smart to put this thing at this particular moment, we will face those particular problems. Therefore, Cope is particularly concerned about the negative impact that this levy will have, both economically and socially, on our rural sugar cane farming regions, and more so on our emerging farming sector.

Cope will be amenable to reviewing its position on the introduction of the Health Promotion Levy when ... and I’m saying when ... our economic situation improves and unemployment and poverty have reduced substantially. At the moment we do not agree.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here, hon members of this august House and visitors, good afternoon [Bavakatjhi, lotjhani].

The Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill contain a number of proposals announced by the Finance Minister in the 2017 Budget Speech. The amendments included the introduction of a new tax bracket

of 45% for those earning above R1,5 million as indicated by the hon Tobias. An increase in excise duties on alcohol and tobacco, changes to transfer duties, among others. They also included the progressive new levy on sugary sweetened beverages, known as the Health Promotion Levy. [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order


IsiZulu asikho.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you just take your seat please. Hon member, why are you rising?


Nks M S KHAWULA: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Ngiyaxolisa kulunga le-NFP lapho ngaphambili. Bengithi isiZulu asikho lana kunombolo yesihlanu. Asizwa lutho nje. Sikhishiwe sonke thina bakwaZulu-Natal lapha.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. [Interjections.] Thank you. The translation is indeed available. Continue hon member.

Ms D G MAHLANGU: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The ANC and the majority in the Standing Committee on Finance support this new levy and other initiatives in the Bill.

Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you just take your seat please. Yes hon member, what is your point of order?

Ms M S KHAWULA: My point of order is: I am not playing. I do not have the time to play.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point of order, hon member? [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: I am here to work.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is your point of order?


Nk M S KHAWULA: Asikho isiZulu lana nhlobo. IsiNdebele, lesi nesiXhosa. Ngiyaxolisa lapho kulunga le-NFP.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Now take your seat, hon member. Thank you. Can you just check that the translation is indeed available?


Kkz D G MAHLANGU: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, bona iLunga elihloniphekileko liyangithanda abe alikghoni nokuzibamba. Ngithokoza ithando elingaka elinginikela lona nangingathi ngiyasiritha angazi bona uzabe angizwe ngoba liyokudlula ngale.


Chairperson, as the ANC, we do believe that these initiatives are very progressive, particularly the Health Promotion Levy, as it deals with issues of health in our society.

From the submissions made to us in the processing of the draft Bill, it became clear that the world and South Africa face a serious scourge of communicable diseases from overconsumption of sugar sweetened beverages, SSBs.

Our committee and the Portfolio Committee on Health listened and deliberated on submissions from about 30 stakeholders, over three days on the impact of the sugar sweetened beverages. These stakeholders ranged from academics, nongovernment organisations, sugar producers, sugar cane farmers, the beverages industry, labour and concerned citizens.

Evidence presented to us shows that there is high prevalence of obesity in South Africa. In fact, in sub- Saharan Africa, we are the most obese, with over 50% of South Africans classified either as overweight or obese. Obesity is a major cause of noncommunicable diseases which include diseases such as diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular diseases like heart attack, hypertension and stroke.

Hon Chairperson, these are all deadly disease. They are silent killers. Obesity related diseases account to 27% of deaths from noncommunicable diseases. The deaths from these diseases have overtaken deaths from HIV, Aids, and TB per year.

This, according to submissions made to us, was driven by the overconsumption of added sugar that is contained in sugar sweetened beverages.

In 2015 alone, hon Chair and hon members, 55% of deaths in South Africa were attributed to noncommunicable diseases, 33,4% to communicable diseases such as HIV and TB, while 11,1% were due to injuries - you can make calculations.

The noncommunicable diseases cause a lot of strain in our health care system, leading to increased budgets for health. They also lead to lack of productivity in the system as they incapacitate our working age population, causing absenteeism. All these have considerable impact on our economy in terms of growth and development.

The overconsumption of sugar sweetened beverages also cause dental decay and obesity among our children, leading to school absenteeism.

The Health Promotion Levy on sugar sweetened beverages is therefore being introduced in order to overcome behavioural change in society. It seeks to limit demand for nonhealthy products and encourage healthier options such as water. That is why we are all offered water in the House.

It is also being introduced in order to encourage producers of beverages to reduce the content of sugar in their products. For instance a can of cold drink which is
340 ml contains about eight teaspoons of sugar. The design of the tax is that the first three teaspoons which is 12 grams will be exempted from the levy in
340 millilitre can and the rest the five teaspoons or

27 grams will be taxed at a rate of 2,1 cents per teaspoon, increasing a price of a can by roughly 58 cents or 11%.

All stakeholders, except for one, agreed on the impact of sugary beverages on health during our hearings. The major issue was the potential unintended consequences of the levy on jobs, particularly for sugar cane farmers, beverage producers and retailers.

With regard to concerns of this possible negative impact, the committee referred the issues to National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, for negotiations by all stakeholders.

As the committee, we are happy with the outcome of those negotiations as they culminated in an agreement for mitigating possible job losses. A comprehensive programme has been attached to our report which includes possible tariff and trade remedies to protect jobs in the sugar cane agricultural sector, enterprise and co-operative development.

Hon members, it is important to clarify that the introduction of the Health Promotion Levy is not seen as the only measure to deal with obesity and noncommunicable diseases. It is just one of multiple and

multidisciplinary approaches which have been developed by the Department of Health.

Some of these initiatives are in the Strategic Plan for the Prevention and Control of the Noncommunicable Diseases 2013 to 2017 and the National Strategy for the Prevention and Control of Obesity 2015 to 2020. These are in line with the National Development Plan and other global heal initiatives of reducing the number of deaths from noncommunicable diseases.

They include a comprehensive package of measures such as: The creation of an institutional framework to support intersectoral engagement; creation of an enabling environment that supports the availability and accessibility of healthy food choices in various settings, including in schools; increasing the percentage of the population engaging in physical activity; supporting obesity prevention in early childhood; communicating, educating and mobilising communities, among others.

The levy has been introduced at a very modest rate of 11%. Those supporting the introduction of the levy argued strongly that the levy be introduced at more than 20% per litre for it to have the desired impact. The 11% rate is therefore a compromised reached at Nedlac, in the interest of jobs.

The committee will monitor the implementation of this levy, particularly its impact on promoting health.

In this regard, hon Chair, we would require the National Treasury and the Department of Health to assess its impact on changing people’s behaviour towards more healthier options.

Hon Chair and hon members, as the committee, we say, #Phila and #Black paints tendencies must fall. Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]

Mr M P GALO: Hon House Chair, first and foremost, I’m not the member of the committee but as the President of AIC, I want to believe that I can debate on any issue. Hence I am going to focus on the tax amendment bill.

The scheme Monetary Amounts, Tax and Revenue is a culmination of a broader consultation process between business, the private sector, the National Treasury and tax authorities.

The Draft Taxation Laws Amendment Bill will change, among others, the scheme of foreign income exemption, the conversion of debt into equity and the configuration of trust accounts.

This Bill, incidentally, comes at a time when the South African Revenue Services, SARS, has a revenue shortfall of about R50 billion.

Hon member, the Bill, correctly in our view levels the playing field between private and public sector employees rendering services abroad.

The Bill repeals the exemption that accrues to South African tax residents who rendered services outside South Africa. In the past, these South Africans could not be taxed, whereas the public sector employees, also

rendering services abroad were taxed. This dichotomy had to be relaxed.

The Bill also seeks to regulate Value Added Tax, VAT, on leasehold improvements; where a lessee has improved the lessor’s property, he/she is entitled to deduct the VAT incurred on the cost of the leasehold improvements as input tax.

Hon Chair, we welcome the changes made around the trust accounts. We have noted the trend of avoiding tax through the transfer of interest fee or low interest loans. This led to the avoidance of estate duty and the tax-cost associated thereto.

The AIC welcomes these improved changes to our tax and revenue scheme. We believe that it will improve our tax base.

We also implore Minister Gigaba to hire Judge Davis Dennis as head of the proposed inquiry. Thank you very much hon Chair.

Mr L R MBINDA: [Laughter.] I wonder who do you represent? Hon House Chair, it is our believe as the PAC that these cosmetic changes to failing policies and bills will never bring about any meaningful change to the lives of the indigenous people.

Since ANC took power in 1994 it has introduced quite a number of policies that continue to fail our people on a daily basis; but, what is worrying is their reaction when they realise that these failures can no longer be hidden away from the people, they try to bring some small cosmetic changes that will never deliver to the poor majority of our people.

South Africa needs an overall change. That means the entire tax regime needs to be overhauled including the laws and tax administration bills. As a matter of principle, the state has to be able to generate enough revenue so as to advance the socioeconomic challenges of the people. But to think that this revenue will be sourced from the very people and expect it to afford it to deliver the change that the people deserve is not practically possible.

The state must be in control of the means of production; and with the profits made, be able to better the lives of our people to live the life deserved by normal human beings. The demand for better housing, free education, free healthcare and other societal needs require us to be decisive as law makers. And for as long as we are still busy changing formulas, hoping for better cosmetics, our people will remain homeless, landless, thus subjected to inhuman living conditions.

Chairperson, our people need a leadership that will be decisive in changing the economic patterns in this country in favour of the previously disadvantaged people; majority of whom are indigenous Africans. Chasing fancy international standards and/or desperation to be accepted by the so-called international community makes us leave our people behind in homelessness. It is a shame that we promised students free education decades ago.

We will always, as PAC, reject the cosmetic changes as they have no impact in changing the lives of the poor for the better. Thank you.

Mr Y I CARRIM: Hon Chair, comrades and colleagues. Firstly, I think it’s clear that the world over, whatever health promotion levy or sugar beverages tax is been introduced, it becomes extremely contentious, extremely challenging to process and – in fact – big industry in this regard, that has much to lose has interfered in a variety of ways; their story is circulating about bribes given to Members of Parliament in certain countries; the creation of front organizations that present themselves as community organizations, created simply to protect the needs and interests of workers, they’re often and they aren’t even representing a constituency; and a wide variety forces come to be on the parliamentary process.

In a smaller measure, this happened in our country too. There were various interventions including the latest last night, to get us to drop this Bill. And of course it comes from people who are connected to the industry. In fact, it’s so predictable when you are the Chairperson for a long time and in the system for long to imagine who it is that’s going ring you. On three occasions, Chairperson, the people that rang me don’t know that I know that they are linked in some or other way; in fact,

the industry is extremely incompetent because they sometimes reveal to you who they speak to and they even threaten the Chairperson and say “Do you know that so and so actually doesn’t agree with you and he’s in the ANC NEC?” for example. My reply is “This Bill comes form the Cabinet”. In the first instance, I want to congratulate the Cabinet on behalf of the committee for the bravery and courage you have shown in bringing this Bill.

Taking that into account, the many issues raised by other members about their concerns regarding the Bill were raised in the committee at the very outset. In fact, in the first sitting of the Bill – when we got the briefing
– we identified that the issues are going to be “how do we protect the public at large form the consequences of obesity, diabetes and NCDs” that Comrade Dikeledi Mahlangu spoke about. And at the same time, ensure that the effect on jobs is as minimal as possible, and moreover ensure that emerging farmers in particular, but farmers generally in the industry do not suffer undue harm.

So, we sought a trade off, a balance if you like, between these three imperatives. We had extensive public hearings. In fact, before the Bill came to Parliament, we had major public hearings. Let me put it to you, what was remarkable about these public hearings was the stunning representation of the negative consequences of sugar beverages on our people and on people generally.

Hon Minister of Higher Education - if you are still here, I thought I saw you earlier – and the Minister of Science and Technology in particular, the quality of the inputs were literally world-class. What was remarkable more over, they were mainly by Africans, not just blacks generally but African people, speaking with a facility, ease and quality that made us feel very proud. What was even more interesting was that most of them were below 40 years of age. I really think it’s amicable; I’m a former academic for what it’s worth but the quality of what we got there was stunning. [Interjections.]

Let me put it to you also that there were very few people on both committees – the health committee and ourselves – who could argue against the need to reduce the effects of

sugar beverages tax, nobody questioned that. The issues were around “is it the be all and end all”. Let me stress to both Mr Hlengwa and Mr Lees, from the outset, the Department of Health said this is one of the multi- programme strategy, it’s not a be all and end all, and that’s what the committee has decided on its report.

Secondly, there was this issue about finding the right balances. As a committee we were modest enough to say “we don’t have the capacity to do that, let’s take it to National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, they have the capacity”. Moreover, we said to Nedlac “you can’t just discuss with Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, and the unions in Nedlac, you have to go beyond because the Food and Allied Workers Union, FAWU, is not in Nedlac, the NGOs are not in Nedlac”, so it is, they went to Nedlac and within a very limited amount of time they came to very nice set of balances.

What we have to ensure as the Committee of Finance and the Committee of Health is to implement the comprehensive Nedlac agreement that is set out in the Announcement, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATCs, last week with our

report on this Bill. Treasury made remarkably Minister concessions on the scope, the tax phase, the tax rate and the exemptions. And I think Dikeledi has covered it and you are familiar with it.

We had very similar issues – colleagues, comrades – as we did in this very Parliament on the issue of the tobacco tax. There too, South Africa led the path. The skies have not fallen down nor will the skies fall down when we implement this Bill. Moreover, we have said there is a three-year period in which we will monitor its effect on obesity and the consequences of sugar on the health of our country and also the consequences for jobs. Which is why once again I say that the Committee on Health and our committee need to monitor and we want quarterly reports on this; on the progress of implementing the Nedlac agreement.

We also want to stress that the decision to do what we did, in a give and take manner, meant that nobody is happy; the NGOs feel we sold them out and are very upset with us; the industry feels we’ve sold them out; the trade unions...Cosatu interestingly came around to say

after the Nedlac agreement that they are 90% in agreement with Treasury. The only difference is, couldn’t they phase the implementation even more carefully? There is a phased implementation, it’s not going to be implemented next year, it’s going to be implemented the year after but Cosatu felt it should have been phased in. So, Cosatu came to our committee, after the Nedlac process, and said “we are 90% in agreement with Treasury”, so here it is, through effective consultation we have bridged the gap substantially. Obviously you can never get agreement nor will you ever between industry, emerging entrepreneurs and the NGO sector. I think, in the circumstances, we did the best we could but the real test is what happens in practice; the real test is how effective we are as the two concerned committees in ensuring that the Nedlac agreement is implemented.

We thank you for participating. And it’s interesting that it is only the DA, once again, that opposes the Sugar Beverages Tax, why? Because they represent, once again, big industries and monopolies [Time Expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, whereas there are real challenges faced by the economy since the 2008 global downturn, we remain positive about its growth prospects albeit slow at the moment. We are confident that given both the fiscal consolidation plans we have to plug the revenue shortfall, addressing cards and revenue enhancement, as well as economic stimulus measures we are implementing, underpinned by structural reforms, we will soon recover and our economy will keep pace with the rest of the global trends.

Our economy has been here before, following the downfall of apartheid. It took a concerted national effort to recover and reach the GDP growth levels we had reached by 2007.

The same concerted national effort is required to improve our economic performance and get our economy out of the slow growth zone.

In this regard, nothing must be sacrosanct; taxes must also be considered. Many of the changes in the Rates Bill are already effective and were intended to increase tax

revenues by around R28 billion this fiscal year as part of government’s efforts to ensure the sustainability of our public finances.

The unexpected recession in the earlier part of the year and the lackluster economic growth since then, has reduced the expected amount of additional revenue from these tax changes, and with a large expected revenue shortfall our fiscal position has become more precarious.

The impact of tax increases on economic growth cannot be ignored and a careful balancing act is required between spurring on growth and fiscal consolidation.

The 2017 Taxation Laws Amendment Bill contains more complex technical amendments announced in the Budget aimed at closing loopholes, providing certain tax incentives and clarifying current provisions to create a simpler and more effective tax system.

Furthermore, this Bill contains specific rules dealing with the tax treatment of banks and financial

institutions due to changes in the financial reporting standard from IAS39 to IFRS9.

The 2017 Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill deals with the Administrative tax proposals aimed at refining the administration of the tax cuts. It also contains rules aimed at improving the effectiveness of combating refund fraud and in response to representations by members of the financial sector.

Accordingly, and to give full effect to these amendments, concerns regarding the effectiveness of the Sars are worth paying attention to.

The Commission enquiry that I announced two weeks ago will help us address these concerns and boost public confidence in our tax administration.

Hon members, there can be no trade-offs between economic growth and health. This is an artificial dichotomy. These taxes are progressive and very necessary to safeguard our tax base and ensure all individuals and corporations pay their fair share.

It is important that when we consider all the proposals that are being made, we take to heart the very best interest of all our people particularly the poorest of the poor and not only reach conglomerates that benefit from the maintenance of the status quo.

It is therefore, important that Parliament - the National Assembly, stands in full support of the amendments that are being proposed and votes in favor of these Bills.

I wish to thank the committee for processing these Bills so efficiently and ask that the entire House votes in support of these amendments. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill be read a first time.

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, on a point of clarity! Are we dealing with point six on the programme being Rates and Monetary ... First reading?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): We are doing the Rates and Monetary Amounts. We are going to take each question separately.

Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chairperson.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

Take in from minutes.

Question agreed to.

Rates and Monetary Amounts and Amendment of Revenue Laws Bill accordingly read a first time.

Taxation Laws Amendment Bill read a first time (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).

Tax Administration Laws Amendment Bill read a second time.


(Second Reading)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


(Second Reading)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).


(Subject for Discussion)

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon members, good evening. [Interjections.] Yes, it is afternoon. Hon members, the Freedom Charter declares, and I quote, “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white.” Further on, it declares that, “The people shall share”, and that the country’s wealth belongs to all the people.

The preamble of the Constitution of the Republic also reaffirms this declaration. Therefore, this important motion, which is put before your good selves today, needs to give directions ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Tobias, just a few seconds. Hon members, please settle down. We really have to continue with the business of day. Please settle down. Thank you. Continue, hon Tobias.

Ms T V TOBIAS: This motion before you needs to give directions on how best we can provide solutions of inclusive growth and economic transformation. It urges us

to look at economic models that will embrace a principle of sharing our resources to address the triple challenges of poverty, unemployment and job creation.

Today, I will confine my input to fiscus stimulus and growth models. I decided to consult the writings of Philip Mohr’s book named Understanding the Economy: Everything You Always Wanted to Know about the Economy But Thought You Would Not Understand. Philip Mohr describes economic growth as thus, I quote, “Economic growth in an increase in the total production or income in a country.”

He further asks us a question. He says “Why is economic growth important?” He answers the question by saying,

There are two basic reasons why economic growth is important. Namely, the first being to raise average living standards in the economy ...

Having said this, as a developing economy which has the responsibility to transform, we need to continuously apply economic models that will bring about prosperity in

our country. Michael Todaro, in his book, Economic Development: 8th Edition, explains that structural change theory focuses on mechanisms by which underdeveloped economies transform their domestic economic structures, from a heavy emphasis on traditional substantive agriculture to a more modern, more urbanised and more industrially diverse manufacturing and service economy.

In the same book, he analyses the South African economy – and that is an important part, hon Deputy President – as he says:

If India represents the classic case of poverty in the developing world, South Africa, probably more than any other country reflects the dilemma of inequality.

He further says:

But, South Africa is in the midst of a monumental and unprecedented change.

I repeat it:

But, South Africa is in the midst of a monumental and unprecedented change.

After many years of white rule and black segregation in the context of two countries: One rich; and the other poor, within a common border. A contemporary South Africa is undergoing a delegate transaction.

Hon members, that is not me; that is Michael Todaro when he analysis the South African economy. If you disagree with him, bring an intellectual document that will challenge this economist. Therefore, there is going to be fundamental and monumental challenges to our economy as we transcend.

Indeed, I can’t agree more with Michael Todaro, we as the people of South Africa, having attained freedom in 1994, also need to beneficiate the majority of people who still remain poor.

Today, as people debating this motion, we have choices. We can either turn a blind eye on the stark reality as described by Todaro in his book or we can provide

solutions to this complex matter. As an optimist, I will choose the latter. I would also avoid to venture into analysing the previous economic models or debating whose ideas are more valid than whose.

I will again remind you how Philip Mohr described economic growth. Therefore to meet the competing day-to- day demands, both the public and the private sector carry the responsibility to grow the economy. However, the sluggish economic growth experienced over the past 10 years is nothing to pride ourselves with.

As the ANC-led government, we will provide a growth. Our macro economic policy framework will be able to address this matter, as we did in 1994. The ANC, in its policy conference resolved to continue to pursue our New Growth Path. The fundamental principles of economic growth are capital financing, investment growth, macro economic stability and increasing of investments.

More emphasis will be on increasing manufacturing through the industrialisation programme that the manufacturing sector needs to implement. We need a manufacturing sector

that is competitive. Localisation is needed through state-owned enterprises and implementation of the co- operatives programme. This will maximise job creation.

We also need to look at the green economy which continues to be our key priority area. The South African government will bridge the gap between the big and small business.
The time has arrived to create business opportunities for small local business people in general, and black people in particular.

There are those who preach a narrative that when you transform our economy, you will threaten the markets. I need to put it on record that the ANC-led government is a responsible government which will not collapse the economy. [Interjections.] In fact, it is the ANC that grew the economy in 1994 when it collapsed under the hands of an apartheid state.

During the current fiscal budget presentation, the then Minister of Finance, hon Pravin Gordhan, spoke to the elements of transformation. Amongst the issues he mentioned was the need to create new assets, a need for

new technologies, diversification and the need to balance the structure of ownership and control.

He also said hat our fiscal system should ensure inclusivity. This in my opinion is a broad view of fiscal stimulation versus the narrow textbook definition. The fiscus stimulus and growth ... [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is your point of order, hon member?


Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngabe kuvumelekile ukuthi umuntu avele azonixoxela inganekwane emini kabha, akhulume amampunge? [Ubuwelewele.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, can you please withdraw?


Akunamuntu oxoxa inganekwane lapha siyakhuluma.

Nk M S KHAWULA: Bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi kuvumelekile yini?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no! You are out of order, hon member. Please take your, you are out order. That is not right.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Nawe usungi odile khona manje.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you! Sit down! Continue, hon Tobias.

Ms T V TOBIAS: The fiscus stimulus and growth model that we need to implement should not be at the expense of the poor. The tax model should favour the disadvantaged.
Others argue that the fiscus stimulus should not be long- term. Therefore, in South African context, taxes like the health promotion levy, HPL, will address our challenges, as we said earlier on today in the immediate.

The HPL is a targeted levy and we also need to impose fines on companies that are on collusion course. We are

going to move from the 10% fine imposition that the Competition Commission has been imposing on those companies that are on a collision course. The Market Conduct Regulator, through the Financial Sector Regulation Bill has spoken to these conduct issues.

We also presented tax Bills which will act as a deterrent to tax avoidance. We need to raise revenue as part of growth, but revenue alone cannot address economic growth. We need to employ productive sectors. Imports and exports play meaningful role in our economic growth. The time has arrived that we implement capital projects with diligence to ensure growth.

Revenue collection, as I said, does not necessarily reflect growth. Higher taxes are not a solution to the challenges we have. The National Development Plan represents our vision for growth. Therefore, solutions lie in the implementation of the National Development Plan as outlined earlier on in our statements.

As I conclude, I wish to highlight that our economic policies are on course. The only thing needed is fast

tracking implementation. We need to accelerate the achievement of our Nine-Point Plan. Our industrial policies are progressive. Having come out of our technical recession, I believe that we will realise growth. I thank you for your indulgence. [Applause.]

Mr G D MACKAY: Chair, today’s motion is as devoid of meaning as virtually any statement uttered by US President Donald J Trump. In fact, Chair in approving this motion for debate one can but only concludes that the Speaker was once again exercising her very well developed sense of irony.

I put it to you Chair that this motion for debate is in fact so ridiculous that it would not be out of place in a Monty Python skit. For those members of the House who aren’t Naledi Pandor and who did not undertake the struggle by correspondence in the UK and therefore are unfamiliar with my Monty Python reference, I will explain.

Monty Phython was a British surreal comedy group who developed a branch of comedy and humour known as surreal humour or absurdist humour.

It is a form of humour predicated on deliberate violations of causal reasoning, producing events and behaviour; that are obviously illogical and irrational.

And that Chair is exactly what we have today a nonsense debate topic, involving bizarre juxtapositions, false premises and illogical conclusions together amounting to absolute nonsense. That the South African economy is in a virtual free fall is commonly accepted.

As former Cosatu economist Neva Makgetla points out in today’s Business Day, private investment, a measure of business economic expectations and political risk appetite, has dropped by the hugest margin since the 2009 financial crises.

South Africa has only just escaped the cold clutches of recession and structurally our economy is stuck in low

growth trap with GDP growth for 2017 going to be a very limp 0, 6%.

All this Chair, is exacerbated by continued political uncertainty and the seemingly unconquerable onward march of state capture that is actively undermining South Africa’s fiscal well being.

Make no mistake Chair, the economic effects of state capture are very real so much so that were the ANC serious about debating the economic challenges we face as a nation today’s motion would have placed state capture and presidential corruption at the very centre of a debate on our economy.

That the ANC has refused to do so speaks clearly to the ANC’s true agenda, namely to distract and confuse South Africans about the real nature of our economic challenges as well as the ANC’s role in actively undermining inclusive economic growth in favour of self-enrichment.

Let me be clear, South Africa will never experience inclusive and sustainable economic growth as long as the

economy is being preyed upon by leaches of the ANC political elite.

As to the merits of the debate at hand and I use the word "merits" much like Monty Python might, the hon Tobias wants the House to consider an economic and transformation model that is able to act as the foundation to our economy.

That Ms Tobias assumes South Africa has the luxury to debate and determine what this model might be is ignorant in the extreme and demonstrates just how out of touch the ANC is with global economic realities.

The reality is that South Africa’s mid-sized developing economy is shaped by forces well beyond the control of this House. If you don’t believe me have a chat to your fellow communists or former Nationalist Party MPs who will regale you with tales of government international capital brought down the soviet and apartheid states.

In response to the harsh global economic realities which all nations face lies not a choice about economic

transformation frameworks but rather decisions about supply and demand and boosting national competitive advantages.

The global economy at its heart is about fierce competition and we serve the interests of our most vulnerable citizen’s best by being able to compete and win in our chosen of economic endeavour.

Further, the hon Tobias wants us to debate a so-called "common vision" for our economy. Hon Tobias, just for your information we already have a common vision for our economy, one put together by some of the most able minds in our country and spear headed by your very own party. It’s called the National Development Plan, NDP and perhaps you might consider giving it a thorough read before you waste the House’s time with gibberish about debating a common economic vision. [Applause.]

Thirdly, the hon Tobias wants to talk about the sharing of economic resources. Indeed, more must be done to ensure that all South Africans actively participate and benefit from the economic life of our country. But hon

Tobias, redistribution of wealth is not enough and alone will not address the endemic levels of poverty suffered by our people.

In fact, a singular focus on redistribution, leads nowhere good, if you need a lesson in this ask the EFF about the highly successful ... [Interjections.]

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, this hon member says things I never said at all. I don’t know where he is getting all these things.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, okay... [Interjections.]

Ms T V TOBIAS: None of the things he is saying I have said in my speech. He is misleading the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, thank you very much I think that is really a point of debate. Thank you. Continue.

Mr G D MACKAY: In fact, a singular focus on redistribution, leads nowhere good, if you need a lesson on this ask the EFF about the highly successful redistributive economic models of Venezuela and Zimbabwe, whose citizens now rank among the poorest in the world.

Finally, the hon Tobias wants us to discuss an economic model that addresses unemployment, poverty and inequality.

Hon Tobias, there is no need for discussion the facts are in and they are undisputed: Countless OECD, World Bank and IMF documents highlight South Africa’s job destroying labour laws as the primary reason for high unemployment in South Africa.

Simply put if you want jobs scrap the laws that prevent job creation. Balance labour protections with initiatives to boost labour productivity so that we might attract labour intensive industries.

Chair, this is my last day as a Member of this House and I wish to thank the South African people for the awesome opportunity to have served on their behalf. [Applause.]

To the members of the House that I have worked with; I thank you for your collegiality and friendship. To the House as a whole, I wish to urge you all to put aside narrow party loyalty and to act in the best interests of our nation at all times, always promote unity over division and uphold above all things, your oath to the Constitution no matter the cost. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Thank you House Chairperson. South Africa’s massive economic challenges should be located within the context of global capitalism. To understand this, we need to briefly go back and set the scene.

Let’s state some facts as follows: 85% of South Africa’s economy in 1994 was controlled by 5 corporations, the Anglo American, representing the Oppenheimer family empire, Rembrandts, representing the Rupert family empire, SANLAM, Liberty and Old Mutual.

When South Africa underwent political transition in the early 1990s, it rushed in where many were careful and approached with caution, and adopted the neo-liberal economic policies, hon Thandi Tobias.

Neo-liberal economic policies meant that South Africa integrated into the global economy without the necessary capacity.

This is similar to going to a World War armed with an okapi. What we meant by this? We did not protect our industries that were still at early development stages.

We allowed capital freedom to move without making commitment to productive industries that will create jobs for our people.

We privatised state owned companies without alternative for catalyst for industrialisation. And we also asked our people to start paying for basic services, such as water and electricity which has become very expensive nowadays hon Thandi Tobias.

Because SA’s economy was comparatively smaller and concentrated in few hands, it could not survive the many global economic dynamics, and always became a junior partner.

Throughout, IMF, World Bank and Western countries would use their control of economic policy discourse to set the agenda on what should be economic policy.

The features of this agenda was one, open trading and economic boarders further, make cheap labour cheaper, and loosen the exchange controls.

What are the consequences of this hon Tobias? One, there is no economic growth. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Would you please address the Chair hon member?

Ms H O MKHALIPI: But she is the author of the question Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member please address the Chair. Thank you.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: Ai, but please don’t apply your own rules here. She is the author of the motion I must also talk to her.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member please continue and address the Chair.

Ms H O MKHALIPI: What are the consequences of this hon Tobias? No economic growth. Today we have the lowest economic growth even when globally other economies are recovering. Inequality is amongst the highest in the world, with wealth concentrated in the hands of the few.

South Africa has the highest Gini coefficient in the world. Unemployment rate is the highest in the world; 9 million people willing to work cannot find work.

What needs to be done now? We are providing solutions as the EFF. One, you must give land to the people and integrate all of them into global economic participation

with necessary energy and support. Two, move towards massive industrialisation. You will never go wrong. Made in South Africa in things we consume today and we will continue to consume them tomorrow and in future - made it here in South Africa.

Reposition state owned companies as catalysts for economic growth, and this should entail a complete redesign on how they operate.

In the process create a state owned bank. Nationalise banks without compensation. Continental economic integration is a must. Use the state’s buying power and legislative functions to create a conducive environment for building of South African owned companies.

Build state capacity to generate non-tax revenue and create jobs for our people. Eliminate corruption in all its manifestation, start with Mr Zuma and arrest the Guptas. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Ms E M COLEMAN: Hon House Chair, hon Mackay as we wish you farewell we would also want to sympathise with you

that you could not comprehend, especially to the intentions of this particular topic. Professor Joseph Stiglitz says: “Inequality has been a choice and it is within our power to change it.” However, he further argues that we can rewrite the rules that structure our economy and society to promote both stronger growth and shared prosperity.

A lot has been said by the previous speakers about what we inherited as the ANC-led government. However, what is key is for South Africans to understand our government policy evolvement since our ready to govern times. Our preoccupation then was to redress the immediate legacy implications of apartheid era, socio-economic model to that of inclusivity and shared prosperity. Ours was to open up the economy that was concentrated in the clutches of a few, whilst at the same time addressing immediate social challenges that had to do with bringing back the dignity of our people.

If I were to remind us we had the Reconstruction and Development Programme then which was basically meant to undo or to put us into a particular gear of transforming

while redressing the previous legacies that put our people where we were. We have since introduced, through that particular programme, the delivery of basic services. We’ve also introduced social security systems to cater for vulnerable individuals within our society.

We want to say that though the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, has not seen to the light where we wanted it to, but it has managed to lay the foundation for the following programmes; that was followed by Growth Employment and Redistribution Strategy, Gear. It was introduced to transform the economy from low levels of growth, one that would bring about stronger employment creation and equitable distribution of income and improved standards of living for all. Through Gear the country’s financial situation became stronger, interest rates fell and inflation was brought under control. In addition, the budget deficit was reduced to only 2,2% of gross domestic product, GDP.

You can say more and more and more in terms of the positive benefits of growth. However, year was inadequate in terms of delivering inclusive growth and development,

hence Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, was introduces in pursuit of a significance reduction in poverty and unemployment. The unemployment and poverty situation under Asgisa continued to be quite concerning and they remained unchanged.

In 2010, we saw the birth of the New Growth Path, NGP. In our country perhaps the most glaringly obvious example of our incomplete developmental and constitutional projects is our unemployment rate which I think the previous speakers have spoken about even though up to an exaggerated level. It is currently at 27,7 which we also agree that it is far too high. We have though created many jobs though I don’t want to get too number heavy let me give you some. Since the New Growth Path was adopted in 2010, we have created 2,5 million jobs or about
360 000 jobs a year. This is a 2,5% increase in total jobs per year, which actually compares very well with that of other countries. In some respects these jobs have also been equity promoting meaning that 50% of these jobs created have been for women, but it hasn’t been enough, we agree, jobs increased by 2,5% on average, but the labour force increased by 3%.

Therefore, we are now having 6,2 million unemployed South Africans are up from the 4,7 million towards the end of 2010, and we face a youth unemployment crisis at the unemployment rate of 39%. If we look in any detail at the unemployed, we find that unemployment is still closely associated with population growth. The unemployment rate for white South Africans, for example, is 7% compared to 31% of black South Africans. It is a reality.

In some respect these jobs have also - ... [Interjections.] ... I beg your pardon – under the National Development Plan which is based or was built on the NGP and it was introduced as we all know in 2012. It is the latest macroeconomic policy from the ANC government which emphasises economic growth as a way to deal with the challenges of unemployment, inequality, poverty and redistribution. The plan constitutes a long- term vision and covers the person up to 2030. Amongst the plans target are creating 11 million jobs by 2030, eliminating income induce poverty and reducing inequality.

If you are saying that that is not a plan, I don’t know what you mean. This is a plan. We agree that we need all of us to be dedicated to it. We have interventions and we say that key inside driving our interventions towards structural transformation is the need for the portfolio of tools tailored for particular markets and contexts in order to get jobs reach an inclusive industrialisation away from the current path with its reliance on mineral exports driven by cheap energy availability. The tools we are using to drive transformation include the following: Competition policy, active industrial support and infrastructural expansion. Under competition policy as I’ve already commented a bit on high concentration ratios as an indicator of an economy, that is not still not inclusive.

High concentration also means high potential for collisions and for curtails and we have exposed the range of curtails in wide range of areas over the last decade. With our efforts strengthened by whistle-blowing and corporate leniency provisions on the one hand and the criminalisation of curtail behaviour on the other. We also have a major regime that is attracting global

interest for its use of public interest tests in major applications and for the manner in which we have negotiated agreements around public interests that have protected jobs, developed local supply change kept head offices in South Africa and provided opportunities to black entrepreneurs. We are also using market inquires more assertively as a tool for understanding how to make particular markets more competitive and inclusive.

If I had time I was going to go at length into active industrial support and black industrial programmes. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, poverty and inequality in South Africa is a keen to a runaway train. South Africa currently has the highest nuclear efficient in the world with the most unequal society on the planet. The only place having a higher geneco-efficient being the world itself. To put it simple, South African government has failed dismally from an economic growth perspective on the last twenty years.

The income distribution and the gap between the haves and the have nots is growing exponentially and employment remains at a staggering levels with no clear solutions and sight and while government appears to be showing an interest in addressing the needs of the poor, this is more sounding like a mere lip service in an empty rhetoric.

What is evident is that in 1994, obviously the ANC had a check list. I would like us to go through that checklist. Let’s check the following: junk status, economic downgrade, revised downgrade of economic growth, high unemployment, escalating inequality, increasing poverty, increasing corruption, collapsing SOEs, policy inconsistency, economic mismanagement, collapsing education, cadre deployment, and state capture.

The liberator has become the oppressor, self serving and unable to govern where individuals now become more powerful than the collective which is the people. The problem here is that President Zuma elumbated by the ANC has landed us in these problems.

Now, you come here with this convoluted big topics here, growth and economic transformation model anchored on a common vision for the economy in order to address unemployment, poverty and inequality. If you want to determine the vision 23 years later, then obviously is an omission your party that all along you have had it wrong.

There has been no vision and plan. I hear speakers coming here and they are speaking about RDP, GEAR and so on, well lets go through that as well. The RDB, GEAR, ASGISA, the NGP, the NDP AND the ANC are collapsing.

The key feature here has been the systematic collapse of the vision, and the systematic collapse of the country at the hands of the ANC. Now, we are coming here and we have been fed a book review and so on. Let’s go on back to the basics and improve education, identify new initiative economic opportunities, beneficiate, revamp labour laws

You can ask the people of Nkandla, where the President stays. They support IFP. Also ask the people of Nguthu they support IFP. The IFP last year was able to regain last round because we are not collapsing, we are growing.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon House Chairperson, once again we are here to deliberate on issues affecting our people on the ground. We don’t need anymore policies. What we really need in South Africa is radical economic transformation but radical in the true sense of the word radical. What we need is bold step to change the lives of our people. Twenty three years later and 95% of the wealth is still in the hands of 5-10% of the people.

I want you to ask all these people here in the gallery. They will tell you under what horrendous condition they live dump in the Western Cape. Forgotten and only remembered once in five years. They will tell you ... [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon Emam. Order, can you take your seat?



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, I am still speaking. I have asked hon Emam to take his seat.

Hon guests in the gallery, we really welcome you to Parliament but there is one thing that you are not expected to do according to the rules of Parliament and that is participating in the processes of this House.
That means you can’t clap your hands but you can just observe and enjoy yourself. Okay? Thank you very much. Continue, hon member.



The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, hon member.


Chairperson, I wonder if you would be prepared to indicate to Mr Shaik that the Rules around the parliamentary precinct are very clear. He must stop being a cheap’s gate and hire a proper venue for his provincial congress.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member, that is not a point of order and you know very well. You are now out of order. Continue hon Emam.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Ask this people in the gallery from Freedom Park and Mitchell’s Plain, how houses that have been allocated by councillors of the DA and how they were taking bribes and how corrupt they were and they were protected up to today. The DA has never ever investigated those matters. You can ask this people in the gallery, they will actually tell you.

You can ask this people how the children with special needs are refused entering to the schools in this DA run province. You can ask them, they will actually tell you what is going on. Ask this people in the gallery, what they go through with the corruption for the maximum shebeen licences granted by the DA who don’t care about this people.

Let me add that the people in Mitchell’s Plain, Maanenberg and Bishop are the evicted by in the most barbaric manner by the DA wth no respect for them whatsoever. This people have been waiting for houses for
20 years and 30 years but they have been deprived by the DA because they spend more time in grandstanding than serving the people that pay their salaries.

Let me also add, the DA comes here talks about vision, yes they are correct. They do have a vision but only a vision for the rich and the wealthy. They have no vision for the poor people in South Africa. That is a fact.

The NFP demands that we have a state bank in South Africa to service our people including providing and service land to all the people that are a family including single parent family, accelerating the national health insurance, restricting the shebeens in our communities, providing more resources in social development ensuring that there is more visibility of police into them, and also recognising the right of the Khoisan people and take it from the DA that stole the land and return it to the true people, who are the Khoisan who deserve that land.
That is what we are asking as far as the NFP is concerned. The DA has failed the people of the Western Cape and they courted you ... [Inaudible.] ... when they wanted the votes. That is what they do. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, it doesn’t mean that because hon Emam has a got loud voice,

you have to make more noise. Please. We now allow hon Alberts to take the podium from the FF Plus.

Adv A de W ALBERTS: Chairperson, South Africa is beset by the twin evils of poverty and inequality. How you resolve these problems ... [Interjections.]


USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Hhayi! Bakithi!


No! I’m very sorry, hon Alberts ...


Singenzi njalo. Qhubeka baba.


Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me M G Boroto): Gaan voort, agb Alberts.


Adv A de W ALBERTS: Thank you, Chairperson. How you resolve these problems has a lot to do with which of the

two you choose to focus on. If your focus is on resolving inequality more so than poverty, then you will inevitably design a strategy that will equalise the economic environment that basically translates into an outcome where everyone is made equally poor, save for the elite in power. If one wants to understand what that means, look at Zimbabwe, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela and the erstwhile East-Bloc countries and the USSR.


Indien daar egter gefokus word op die probleem van armoede, dan sal die besef deurskemer dat ’n strategie nodig is wat die ekonomie laat groei met gepaardgaande werkskepping. Sodoende, word mense op ’n waardige wyse opgehef en is hulle nie meer afhanklik van aalmoese van die regering nie.

Mettertyd, soos die die middelkas groei, word die ongelykheidsprobleem ook aangespreek en word die probleem ook al hoe kleiner. Daar bestaan talle voorbeelde in die laboratorium van die geskiedenis waar die klem op ekonomiese groei talle mense uit armoede opgelig het:

Europa, veral Oos-Europa na die Koue Oorlog, Singapoer, Suid-Korea, Japan, en, onlangs, ook Sjina en Mauritius.


What do all these countries have in common? They have embraced the free-market system, entrepreneurship and managed their fiscal and monetary policy in a fairly responsible manner. They did not focus on reducing inequality only, but identified their comparative advantages and ensured that government created an enabling environment for business. Note that the focus is also on the word “free” which implies an absence of overbearing government intervention.


Ongelukkig het die ANC-regering die klem alleenlik op die uitwissing van ongelykheid geplaas en nie op ekonomiese groei nie, en ons begin nou die vrugte daarvan pluk in die vorm van bykans geen ekonomiese groei, verlies van werksgeleenthede, afgraderings, en uiteindelik die vergroting van ongelykheid.

Waarin die ANC-regering tans wel slaag is om ons almal saam armer te maak en, sou die tendens aanhou, gaan ons almal binnekort ewe arm wees in hierdie land, nie kos het om te eet nie, en nie ’n vooruitsig in die toekoms hê nie.


The only way out of this hole is to ensure the following: increased quality education, better health care, less government intervention in the market and the deracialisation of the economy. To do all of this, there is one prerequisite — and it is a very important one: a new and better government that is caring, professional, nondiscriminatory, and noncaptured.


Die vraag is of die ANC-regering introspeksie sal kan doen en hierdie feite raaksien en optree? Dis ’n vraag wat net die ANC alleen kan antwoord, maar u moet wees gewaarsku dat die kiesers julle wel met valk oë dophou. Dankie, Voorsitter.

Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, it is disingenuous and devious for a member of the ruling party to be introducing this subject for discussion.

As Cope has previously pointed out in this House, it was the RDP White Paper — tabled in this House at the dawn of our democracy in 1994 — that clearly declared that, if unemployment, poverty and inequality were to be addressed, if we were to ensure the reconstruction and development of South Africa, our economy needed to be placed firmly on a path of high and sustainable growth.

Our founding fathers were well aware of the interdependence between the objectives of reconstruction and development on the one hand, and growth on the other. In fact, the RDP was anchored in the need for a common and collective vision for economic growth in order to address unemployment, poverty and inequality.

And it was clear that achieving these objectives would require a collective national effort from all sectors of society.

So, today’s subject for discussion is disingenuous and devious. It attempts to deflect the abject failure of the ANC to meaningfully address unemployment — which is at a sky-high 40% — poverty and inequality by ensuring high, sustained and inclusive growth within a transformed economy.

During the Mandela and Mbeki eras our economy performed reasonably well. Those golden years were characterised by rising levels of growth and conservative fiscal management dew.

However, when the traditionalists and the left-wing components of the ANC alliance conspired to overthrow President Mbeki and subjected South Africa to the devastation of a Zuma tsunami, the ANC changed our economic policy trajectory with devastating consequences.

We have been subject to the converse of the Mandela-Mbeki eras — the abandoning of rational economic sense, allowing growth levels to plummet as debt levels increased. Let us not forget the disastrous effects of rampant corruption and looting, the purposeful

disassembly of any semblance of a capable state, state capture and the consequential decline to junk status.

And now, South Africans and potential investors are subjected to a barrage of dishonest and populist slogans regarding radical economic transformation.

The fact of the matter is that we need high and sustained growth. Without it, the possibility of the distribution of economic opportunity is moot.

The ANC has ceased to be an agent for economic restructuring and transformation, and has instead become inward-looking, with those at the helm concerned only with extracting value for themselves rather than changing the lives of citizens for the better. [Time expired.]

Mr M P GALO: Chair, Moody’s and Standard & Poor’s Global Ratings are expected to publish their reviews on Friday. There are various variables and indicators at play to consider on this important debate.

This motion invites us to discuss a plausible model tailored on reigniting inclusive growth and economic transformation. Hon members, the complexity of the South African economy is often complicated by endless academic banter and debate. We need to be as practical as our challenges.

Inclusive growth is a function of an economy that is anchored on foreign inflows, foreign direct investment, political certainty and sustainable job growth. The danger of our time has been to delink the relationship between growth and transformation. When we have linked the two, we tend to over-scratch these variables.

The transformation of our economy is non-negotiable. South Africans have to own, control and share the means of production in our economy. It is this transformation that will trickle down to improving their livelihoods. To transform this economy, the state has to own the mines and the key industry portfolios, and must partner with the private sector in the ownership of banks.

The attitude of the AIC towards economic transformation is premised on the role of an ethical, efficient and accountable state. Inclusive economic growth, with the state being corrupt and unaccountable, is unachievable.

We have to work on our sovereign debt, by ensuring that capital inflows and interests accruing to bond loans are normalised. The R50 billion revenue shortfall should rally all of us to find ways through which tax morality and patriotic vanity is restored.

The AIC therefore welcomes Minister Gigaba’s commissioning of an inquiry into the SA Revenue Service Sars. This follows Judge Dennis Davis’s report of Sars’s poor governance and lack of independence.

South Africans, both black and white, have to rally behind the vision of the NDP. [Time expired.]

Mr L R MBINDA: Hon Chair of the session, unemployment, poverty and inequality is a great nightmare that our people are subjected to, daily. The history of our people reflects the African as the landowners and not labourers

who sell their labour power for a living. Over a period of centuries our people have been systematically sidelined from economic activities and therefore, forced to be beggars who have to toil for their survival.

Secondly, we can never separate poverty and unemployment as our unemployed people remain poor, same as those of our people who continue to be unemployed and exploited. The reality of the situation is that, as a nation, we have our God-given resources that we and the future generations have to utilise to build and develop ourselves as the African nation. Azania, like the majority of our African states, are not poor as a result of the lack of means of production nor any other naturally motivated reasons.

However, we are made to be poor by those who continue to loot and exploit African riches for the betterment and development of their nations. Other people are making a living in our own backyards when we and our children are subjected to fend for themselves in the economic bins for survival. For as long as we continue to live a lie and conceptualise problems with big fancy English that is

driving us away from the historic realities that we find ourselves in, the situation will remain the same.

The sooner we accept the truth and acknowledge that our economy is in the hands of a minority elite, the majority of which originates outside the borders of South Africa and Africa in general; steps could be taken to eradicate poverty. For one to prescribe any solution to any problem, they must first be able to diagnose its realities, then you will be better positioned to bring about solutions that have a possibility of impacting on the situation.

For as long as the economy is in the hands of the few, the white minority, our people will remain poor, homeless and landless in that environment. Unemployment, inequality and poverty become the order of the day.
I thank you.

Mr P G ATKINSON: Chairperson, it would be helpful to start by defining the problem that this motion seeks to address, and then list the solutions that the DA believes

can best be provided to enhance the economic inclusion of all our people.

At present, we are faced with the fact that over

9 million people in South Africa are unemployed, which means that more than a quarter of our working age population are unable to have a decent living. Clearly, this is an unsustainable state of affairs for South Africa. Compounding this problem is the fact that growth in the economy has effectively stalled.

We are also faced with the prospects of billions of rand not invested in our economy because of an investment strike by local and international investors due to their deep concerns over the confused economic direction our country has taken. Confusion and concern over our country’s economic and political direction are also likely to lead to further credit rating downgrades.

This will serve to significantly increase the funding costs of our huge debt obligations, and there will be less cash for the fiscus to meet its obligations, which

will be made worse by reduced tax receipts from an economy that is just not growing sufficiently strongly.

Bailouts of failing state institutions such as SA Airways and potentially Eskom just drain more cash from areas where it can be better deployed. So, this is not a very healthy economic picture for our country, and the question is: What to do to get ourselves out of this situation?

For too long, the solution offered by this government to improve economic growth and employment has been to increase demands on investors, to comply with onerous regulation increased red tape or just simply investment killing legislation like the new Mining Charter.

Rather, as a country, we need to look at what we can do to attract investors by creating an economic climate conducive to investment. Potential investors are looking for policy certainty, protection of property rights, lack of arbitrary action, a well educated workforce and a dependable infrastructure that can deliver water, electricity, roads and rail for transport.

In August I travelled with the hon Coleman - with the Economic Development Committee to Malaysia, to observe how a country with a similar size economy has been able to deliver economic growth rates of between 5% and 7% of the last 15 years and enjoy as almost full employment.

The answer is that the country has a single economic policy that everyone has rallied behind, known locally as Big Fast Results, BFR. The key driving point of this policy is the relentless focus on attracting both local and international investment to drive economic growth.

So successful has that government been that in excess of 90% of all investment in Malaysia comes from private sources. A government official told us that the country simply does not have the available capital without the involvement of the private sector to drive the economy at the rate of growth they want to achieve.

Here, we come back to the AIC who’s asking for the state- owned mines and banks, and I just asked: Where on earth are we going to get money from to be able to run banks

and mines, when we are actually facing huge deficit as it is at the moment?

The government also has no fear of capital flight from foreign investors because investment terms are made so attractive that as soon as one project concludes, investors are looking for new projects to invest into. Through the BFR programme, the government has a relentless focus on unblocking barriers to investors that may be legal, infrastructural, labour related or any other issue.

If South Africa was prepared to take a leaf out of Malaysia’s book, tens of billions of rand of private sector cash could be unlocked to invest into this economy, by looking at what is required to attract those investors rather than by burdening them with further obligations.

A DA government would take the following steps to build a rapidly growing economy, economically inclusive to all, and this is what we would do: We would provide an environment of policy certainty; we would respect

property rights where investors are not subject to arbitrary actions of government such as that witnessed by Minister Zwane when he went to overseas in Switzerland, to assist the Gupta-family with the Optimum Mine and leading the Glencore mining deal.

We would make sure that there is attractive tax regime to encourage investments through a well thought system of tax rebates; we would reform school curriculums to ensure more focus on producing learners who are able to participate productively in the workforce of 21st century technology economy.

In fact, the hon Coleman spoke about the racial breakdown of unemployment and the hard, particularly badly, amongst black population in South Africa, and it goes back to exactly that, to the curriculum of schools and the complete failure of education for poor black learners who are not preparing themselves for our economy. That is the reason why unemployment is so bad in that particular part of the workforce.

A focus on the likely effects of the fourth industrial revolution on our economy is another thing that we looked at, and how best to ensure a workforce appropriately equipped to meet this technological challenges and a focus on promoting small business and entrepreneurs to meet a goal of one million new small business owners.

We would look at demonopolising and deconcentrating our economy by encouraging independent power producers in an enhanced renewable energy programme. These new schemes, while providing clean energy, would assist economic inclusion in communities previously excluded.

We would look at private and public partnerships, especially, in cases like the SA Airways where we would look in to bring fresh ideas and private capital to help sort out the airline. Another example is in Johannesburg where Mayor, Herman Mashaba, is looking to get the private sector in to invest into derelict buildings, to be able to provide low to middle income of affordable housing stuff.

Greater economic inclusion would also be enhanced by expanded property ownership and not so much by the expropriation of land as the EFF talks, but more focus on providing title deeds to urban dwellers in government housing, and also providing title deeds to citizens who’ve been tilling down the rural areas.

In conclusion, there is no greater economic inclusion for a citizen than to be able to participate fully in the economy through having a job, and being able to provide for his or her family. We need to be ambitious for all our citizens to provide them with the necessary tools to participate effectively in this economy through better education and training.

We also need to ensure that we create an enabling environment to ensure greater levels of entrepreneurship that will create more jobs. Our proposals here today is, to grow the economy and enhance economic inclusion; focus on attracting investment to create a thriving modern economy ready for the fourth industrial revolution.

By building a strong and thriving economy that promotes economic inclusion, we can help deliver a new beginning for all our people. Just to make a comment about the ANC member for the NFP, Mr Shaik-Emam, whose contribution normally would be an attack on the DA and slavishly spouting the ANC slogans like radical economic transformation, he had a great time calling the DA corrupt.

I just would like to ask him about the situation regarding one of his employees, where money was kept aside from the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA, dealing; not exactly the actions of an incorruptible person.

Regarding the comments from hon Coleman, I hear a rather chilling effect from the debate where she spoke readily about the history of why we are where we are at the moment. Unfortunately, I gave a very little indication of where we will be going in the future. So, really what you are looking for is hope. [Time expired.]]

Ms N R BHENGU: Hon Chairperson, hon members, fellow South Africans, my area of focus is programmes addressing unemployment, poverty and inequality. I am going to focus more on poverty.


Ngaphambi kokuthi ngikhulume ngizoke ngixoxe indaba. Uma sikhuluma ngezinhlelo zikahulumeni kaKhongolose zokulwisa ubumpofu sivamise ukubala ukuthi zingaki izindlu ezakhiwe, zingaki izindlu zangasese ezakhiwe, zingaki izikole ezakhiwe. Aijwayele ukukhuluma ngoshintsho olwenzeka ezimpilweni zalabo abasuke bephile isikhathi eside bengakwazi ukuzihlinzeka ngalokho abakudingayo.

Ngaziqhenya kakhulu ngezinhlelo zikahulumeni kaKhongolose mhlazane ngethamele imbizo yomphakathi ngaphansi komasipala Ugu. Sasiye kulo mphakathi siyolalale izidingo zomphakathi ngo-2006 emuva kokhetho lohulumeni basekhaya. Kule mihlangano kuvame ukuthi abantu bethule izikhalo bangasho lutho ngalokho asebakunikezwa wuhulumeni. Kulo mhlangano kwasukuma ugogo owayedondolozela ngenduku waya phambili wayesethi, ngicela ukunithuma bantabami kuhulumeni kaKhongolose ePitoli. Nize nithi kuMOngameli

uMbeki ngiyabonga ngokwakhelwa indlu yangasese okwenze ngabuyelwa yisithunzi ngayeka ukwesaba ukuya ngasese okwakwenziwa wukuthi ngadlwengulwa kabili ngiseyintombi ngiye kozikhulula ehlathini. Namhlanje ngine-toilet lami ngiphephile ekudlwengulweni. Abazukulu bami abangamantombazane angisabaphelezeli uma beyozikhulula ngoba asisazikhululi ehlathini, senginayo indlu encane. [Ihlombe.] Waqhubeka ugogo wathi, angikabi nayo indlu ngihlala nabazukulu bami egogogweni elakhiwe ngothayela kodwa ngiyajabula ngoba ngiyazi ukuthi nami ngiyoyithola ngelinye ilanga indlu yomxhaso ngoba ababhalisa kuqala kunami sebazitholile lezo zindlu. [Ihlombe.]

Kule nkulumo kagogo kuvela inkinga yokudlwengulwa kwabesifazane ngenxa yokungabikho kwendlu yangasese, okuyinto okungeke size siyinake uma sikhuluma ngokunakekelwa kwabantu abampofu abangakwazi ngisho ukuzakhela izindlu zangasese.


This story is about the social impact of providing sanitation, as we are forced to look beyond the number of toilets provided. Our measure of success should therefore

not always be based on numbers of how many toilets were built and how much was money was spent against what was allocated as this tends to be used to measure government officials’ performance for them to get their bonuses instead of measuring the change made by the intervention. Development is about social and economic changes experienced by people as a result of an intervention.

Chairperson, this debate is premised from the National development Plan as an overarching policy aimed at building a developmental state through a mixed economy driven by the state, the private sector and co- operatives. The debate is also about what do we mean by radical economic transformation in practical terms and how we do introduce that at grassroots level?

Programmes addressing unemployment, poverty and inequality were informed by a need to address underdevelopment experienced mainly by black communities who are the majority of the South African population living in rural areas, townships and informal areas.

From 1994 to date the South African government continues to provide for poor families who would not have survived had their needs not been provided for by the government. These programmes include, to mention a few, provision of: RDP houses; sanitation; free basic water and electricity; social grants in various forms including the Child Support Grants with 12 million beneficiaries while the Old Age Grant benefits 3.6 million people; National School Nutrition Programme; scholar transport, the list is endless.

Government estimates that it will spend R 175 billion on social grants by 2020. The National Development Plan points us towards building a developmental state with active participation in mainstream economy by all sectors of the society including communities. Building a developmental state also requires policy consistency.

In 2014, presenting the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the then Minister of Finance, Mr Nhlanhla Nene, emphasised a need to shift our budget from consumption to productive meaning that we need to reduce the number of people who depend on social grants and free

services from government. We are saying this because South Africa has two states, one is a developmental state for the rich and the other is a welfare state for the poor. Unless we develop poor people who depend on social grants and free services economic growth will have no meaning and no impact on poverty and unemployment.

The NDP puts targets of job creation at 11 million new jobs by 2030 of which 90% of these jobs are expected to be created by small businesses which include SMMEs and
co-operatives. The Minister of Finance, Mr Malusi Gigaba, in tabling a framework for the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement told us in no uncertain terms that there is no extra money. He went on to explain the needs for us to focus on sectors that grow the economy while at the same introducing developmental poverty intervention to make communities and municipalities sustainable.

There is consistency in socioeconomic policies of the ANC government. The ANC is highly committed in providing a cushion for poor families to survive. There are no poor people who migrate from South Africa as a result of poverty. While this is commendable it is unsustainable in

the long-term. Therefore a need arises for aligning poverty reduction programmes to skills development and service delivery processes of government.

This morning on SAFM there was a discussion about water cuts in eMfuleni Municipality by Rand Water due to non- payment of R350 million debt by eMfuleni Municipality. If one was to look deeper into this situation, one may find that the majority of households who are supplied by eMfuleni Municipality by water cannot afford to pay for the amount of water consumed over and above the free water allocation provided to indigents.

This therefore calls on us to focus more on using poverty reduction expenditure in a manner that involves our communities in their own development. That approach will result in the empowerment of communities who would permanently exit from the social grant register and indigent registers of municipalities, as they would begin to afford paying for services provided to them by municipalities thereby broadening the revenue base of municipalities and SARS.

A developmental approach reduces over dependency on government promotes and self-sufficiency and self- reliance at community level. When we train beneficiaries of RDP houses and toilets to build their own houses and toilets we are imparting a skill while a service is being delivered, but more importantly we are developing the community and making it participate in its own development.

The money deployed by government to provide RDP houses and toilets remain in the community to enable the community to establish community-owned enterprises, generate income and pay for services provided by municipalities. The ANC is clear: Growth and development are twins. This approach will result in empowered communities who would permanently exit the indigent register.

That approach also requires a new cadre of development in the public sector who understands that economic growth that has no impact on poverty reduction is not sustainable. Therefore, the mentality of prioritising big companies that have experience in the tender system needs

to be reversed to accommodate the participation of communities in their own development through the provision of skills and also opening an opportunity for them to participate in their own development.

The ANC believes that the NDP and the radical economic transformation are policies which will take this country forward. I thank you.

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, hon members, let me first say this: Go well, hon Mackay. We wish you well in your endeavours. [Applause.]

Having said that ... [Interjections.] ... the hon Mackay has been exposed: the DA promotes segregational economic policies. [Interjections.] The fact that the hon Mackay wants us to usurp the rights of workers for collective bargaining says it all. [Interjections.] We will never renege on promoting bargaining by workers. There is no way. The ANC will always support collective bargaining.

He also exposed that the DA cannot provide a solution to economic growth. [Interjections.] I’ll come to you, hon

Atkinson. Wait a moment. Therefore it remains our agenda as the ANC to create jobs and to ensure economic growth. [Interjections.]

Hon Hlengiwe and the hon Hlengwa: both of you are off- tangent. You have a tendency of wanting to discuss macroeconomic policy and the fiscal framework when we are speaking about how to grow the economy. The discussion was how we do it. [Interjections.] You should have come here, hon members, and spoken to that.

Hon Shaik Eman, thanks for exposing the hypocrisy of the DA. [Interjections.] They removed the Red Door programme right here in Cape Town, a programme that was implemented by the ANC to promote small business. Where is the Red Door? Gone.

Hon Alberts, you are now starting to sound like a scratched record. You see, it is the ANC that went to the farming communities and exposed the dop system. People were not paid salaries. Today, when we say, “Let’s all benefit in the economy,” you say, “No, no, no. The ANC

want black people to benefit. They don’t deserve.” That’s typical of your party.

Hon Carter, nothing will stop the ANC from coming to this podium and offering organic debates in our society. The expeditious way you approached this motion actually showed the limitations of your understanding of the debate, but I’ll leave it at that.

Hon Galo, we agree with you in fast-tracking implementation. That’s what you are doing through the National Development Plan, the NDP. That’s what our growth strategy has explained through those nine-point plans: as the ANC government, we will ensure that we deal with health issues; we will deal with unemployment; we will create jobs; we will promote the agricultural sector. That’s what we are doing, and we will continue doing that.

Hon Mbinda, we agree in principle that we must deal with unemployment. We are the ones who have actually admitted that it is getting a little bit out of hand. But, hon members, as we only listen to complaints here, I need to

bring into context what the hon Atkinson was saying here. He only suggested foreign direct investment, meaning that we must not localise investment. Because, why? It is black people that will benefit if we localise investment. He does not want that. He says in his own words: foreign direct investment. We are saying: Yes, foreign direct investment but we need domestic investment. We want to make sure that we organise all South Africans to participate in the economy. We are not going to renege on that. We will continue building small businesses.

We are already providing tax rebates, hon Atkinson. You need to understand ... it shows that you don’t have an understanding. We say to businesspeople that employ more people that they will get tax rebates.

Actually, let me tell you, hon members, who applied for those rebates. It’s not small businesses; it’s big businesses. Actually, it does not even go back to the workers. They only employ people for three months, claim the rebates and then after that employ new people. We discovered that and we are dealing with that.

They also exposed the fact that they want state-owned enterprises to be privatised. [Interjections.] As the ANC, we said we will provide an equity stake to the private sector. We are the ones who appreciated the weaknesses in the SOEs. We said: Wait for the report. When the report comes, it will make succinct suggestions on how we need to provide equity partnerships to the private sector. But, guess what? You can’t wait.

Let’s look at the listings on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE. Ninety-five percent of ownership is owned by only 10% ... that’s not me; that’s the listings on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange. We need to change that. We cannot be apologetic about that.

We, as the ANC today – today, at this podium – provided solutions for economic growth. We spoke about the need to industrialise, the need for new technologies and the need to diversify - as stated in the National Development Plan.

Hon members, I thank those ANC members who stood at the podium and explained those programmes of the ANC that seek to build economic growth.


Maqabane inde le ndlela.


I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N E GCWABAZA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that United Nations General Assembly has designated 25 November annually as the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women;

further notes that the premise of the day is to raise awareness of the fact that women around the world are subjected to rape, domestic violence and other forms of violence on a daily basis;

recalls that one of the aims of the day is to highlight that the scale and true nature of the issue is often hidden;

acknowledges that the theme of the campaign for 2017 is “Leave No One Behind: End Violence against Women and Girls”;

understands that violence against women and girls is one of the most widespread, persistent and devastating human rights violations in our world today; and

calls upon governments to observe this day and regard it as a day to combat abuse against women and girls.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr M R BARA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that the finale of South Africa Idols was held on Sunday, 19 November 2017;

further notes that this year’s competition was won by Paxton Fielies from Bishop Lavis in Cape Town;

acknowledges that as a 17-year-old, Grade 11 pupil, she is the youngest winner in the history of the competition;

further acknowledges that she beat the very talented 25-year-old Mthokozisi Ndaba from KwaZulu-Natal on Sunday evening, and walked away with the ultimate prize including prize money of R1 million; and

congratulates Paxton Fielies on this remarkable achievement and wishes her well in her future endeavours as she is a great inspiration to her peers and other young people across South Africa.


objection to the motion? No objection. For a young girl like her, I also add my support.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms N V MENTE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

welcomes the decision of Zanu-PF to remove President Robert Mugabe;

notes that his removal is needed so as not to undermine the progressive land reclamation process led by the people of Zimbabwe, who took back their land stolen by white settlers;

acknowledges the role President Mugabe played in the liberation of the people of Zimbabwe both politically and economically;

further acknowledges that these gains were being reversed due to his overstay in power, corruption and abuse of state resources;

applauds the people and military of Zimbabwe in the manner in which they have removed President Robert Mugabe;

encourages them to act decisively as they continue their revolution, otherwise reactionary elements might hijack the course of Zimbabwe’s development post- President Mugabe;

extends political asylum to President Robert Mugabe so that the transition of power is done smoothly and peacefully, and in the best interests of the people of Zimbabwe; and

urges the government of the ANC to consider giving President Robert Mugabe an asylum in South Africa. Thank you.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms R M M LESOMA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that Hayley Nixon became South Africa’s newest world champion when she conquered tough conditions and a very strong field to win in the ICF Ocean Racing World Championships, on a day that saw Team SA scoop five medals in Hong Kong on Saturday, 18 November 2017;

understands that apart from Nixon’s award, the team won a silver in the under 23 women’s race and two junior medals with Danville Park Girls’ High School student Sabina Lawrie becoming the new junior world champion;

further understands that Ms Nixon, who has a rowing and surf ski background has dedicated herself to her lifelong dream of becoming a world champion, when she won the Surfski World Series title in 2016;

congratulates Hayley Nixon and Team SA for making the country proud; and

wishes her and her team mates well in future competitions.

Agreed to


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N SINGH: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes the recent terror at India House, Durban, in which the family of India’s Consul General in Durban, Dr Shashank Vikram, was left severely traumatised after eight robbers armed with guns and crowbars invaded their

home, holding their five-year-old son hostage on Thursday afternoon;

further notes the brazenness of criminal elements in this country to target and so easily breach the security of one of South Africa’s highest profile diplomatic families when they burst into the historic home around 4pm last Thursday, after overpowering and attacking a guard;

acknowledges that Dr Shashank Vikram’s wife, Dr Megha Singh, and their two young children were at the residence at the time, and were subjected to a terrifying ordeal during which their five year old son was held hostage as the robbers demanded money and gold;

further acknowledges with serious concern about the increasing levels of criminality and lawlessness that are sweeping our country and emphasizes the fact that no one is immune from these kinds of robberies;

calls upon the SA Police Services, SAPS, to conduct a thorough investigation into the robbery and the alleged ineptitude of the security company and the police to respond timeously; and

further calls for the perpetrators to be apprehended without delay and for them to face the full might of the law as no person or family should be put through the kind of trauma experienced by the Vikram family in South Africa.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes the sadness and pain experienced as a result of the tragic death of Ms Nontobeko Sindane, Mrs Syvia Moruri and Mr Andile Masondo who were knocked down by a car that was doing illegal car racing along Umngeni Road on Saturday evening;

further notes a call made by the community in the area asking the Thekwini Municipality to deploy Metro Police to put an end in the illegal car-racing;

call upon this House to sends its condolences to the bereaved families for the loss of their loved ones; and

further calls for immediate intervention by the Thekwini Metro Police to put an end to the illegal car-racing and also to bring perpetrators to book. I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N E GCWABA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that the Springboks hit back from last week’s record defeat to Ireland to beat France
– 17 in Paris 
on Saturday, 18 November 2017;

acknowledges that the Springboks held on for a narrow win against France to get their first win on tour;

believes that this was a tough encounter which saw Springbok captain Eben Etzebeth and hooker Malcolm Marx suffering injuries;

commends the Bokke on responding well from the setback in Dublin a week ago; and

congratulates the team on their character and resilience.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr N L KWANKWA: House Chairperson, I am reading this motion on behalf of Mr Filtane. I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that on 12 September 2015 at an awards ceremony held in Dallas, United States of America, Mr Nqabayomzi Kwankwa won the International Leadership Award from the Extraordinary People Awards for his sterling

leadership during the outbreak of the xenophobic violence in South Africa;

further notes that this award in 2015 was renamed after Mr Kwankwa;

acknowledges that in 2016 the award was won by an 18-year-old Ms Kainat Khan from Pakistan for her role in promoting peace and the right to education for the girl child in Pakistan;

further acknowledges that on 15 September 2017 at an award ceremony held in Colorado Springs, United States of America, USA, an 18-year-old and physically challenged, Ms Autumn Kinkande, won the 2017 Kwankwa Award for her role as one of the leading motivational speakers of her generation in America and for entering several beauty pageants despite her physical limitations;

this House congratulates Ms Kainat Khan and Ms Autumn Kinkande for their admirable

contributions in helping to build a better world for all. I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr C MACKENZIE: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that the City of Johannesburg hosted another Telkom 94.7 Cycle Challenge on Sunday

acknowledges the willing cooperation of the people of Johannesburg in staging this annual event as major roads and intersections along the 95 kilometre route are closed for most of

the day to enable the race to take place in complete safety for the participants;

recognises the contribution of all involved in staging a successful event of this nature, including the event organisers, staff and management of the City of Johannesburg; the JMPD; Joburg’s Emergency Management Services; myriad private sector security and healthcare service providers;

congratulates women’s race winner Ashleigh Moolman, who finished in a superb time of 2 hours, 35 minutes and 55 seconds;

further congratulates Daryl Impey, who won the men’s race in a blistering time of 2 hours, 13 minutes and 30 seconds.


(Draft Resolution)

Mr M N PAULSEN: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that 210 years after the abolishment of the Atlantic Slave Trade, black African men, women and children, are being sold and auctioned as slaves in Libya;

further notes that there are 1 million African migrants in Libya, fleeing the consequences of neo-colonialism, corruption, and environmental disasters;

acknowledges that they are forced to flee from their homes by conditions beyond their control, our African brothers and sisters walk into the arms of human traffickers and criminals who use their desperation as an opportunity to turn them into slaves in order to make profit;

further acknowledges that the second scattering of the African people is happening as we speak,

and like the first, it carries with it slavery and death;

recognises that this has been the reality of many Africans fleeing to Europe since the murder of Colonel Gadaffi and the collapse of the revolutionary state of Libya;

condemns slavery, human trafficking and all form of human exploitation; and

mandates the International Relations Committee to engage with the relevant departments to get briefings and report back to the National Assembly.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms R M M LESOMA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that Kentse Mpolokeng is the youngest lecturer at the University of cape Town, UCT, and the first black female lecturer in the human biology department;

remembers that the 26-year-old Kentse’s humble beginnings in her Free State home town of Bethlehem shaped her hunger to succeed;

understands that she attended public schools but that did not deter her from achieving academically;

believes that she wanted to be in the medical sciences but was not admitted into the medical programme and continued with BSc human biology majoring in anatomy;

further believes that her humble beginnings and hard work will serve as inspiration to many young people; and

congratulates Kentse Mpolokeng on her determination and success.

Agreed to.

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, as the members of the United Nations, UN, we have committed to the universal declaration of human rights and our parliament ratified and adopted the Rome extract statue, thus making us members of the International Criminal Court under the ICC
... [Interjections.]


sorry to disturb you. We are now dealing with motions without notice.

Mr W M MADISHA: Thank you!



(Draft Resolution)

Mr N E GCWABAZA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes with sadness the death of five people and injury of two more following a shooting at the Vulindlela shopping Complex in KwaDlangezwa near Empangeni on Friday, 17 November;

understands that a group of thugs approached the supermarket and opened fire at security guards and others who were in the vicinity;

recognises that they stole an undisclosed amount of cash before fleeing scene;

acknowledges that among the victims who died were two security guards who were performing guard duties at the complex, and a bystander who have been sitting in his vehicle;

condemns this act of cowardice by the merciless thugs who do not value the lives of others; and
conveys its condolences to the families of the deceased and wishes those injured a speedy recovery.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms R M M LESOMA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that the multiple award-winning photographer, Phandulwazi Jikelo, won the national photography category at the Vodacom Journalist of the Year Awards on Thursday, 16 November 2017;

remembers this is his fourth award this year, and eighth in three years;

acknowledges that he was honoured for his story on a visually impaired Blackheath resident, Mirtle Virrooi;

further acknowledges that his awards are as a result of his hard work and his reporting on the poor and downtrodden; and

congratulates Mr Phandulwazi Jikelo for his eighth award and wishes him well as he continues with his amazing photography. I so move.

Agreed to.


(Draft Resolution)

Ms A LOTRIET: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes the remarkable discovery of the footprints of an ancient dinosaur in western Lesotho recently;

further notes that the footprints belonged to a carnivorous dinosaur that roamed Southern Africa approximately 200 million years ago;

understands that the massive footprints measure 57cm long and 50cm wide;

further understands that the discovery was made by a team of researchers from South

Africa, the United Kingdom and Brazil led by scientists from the University of Cape Town;

acknowledges that the dinosaur to which these footprints belonged has been informally classified as a ‘megatheropod’ and is thought to be a relative of the well-known Tyrannosaurus rex;

further acknowledges that this is the largest theropod tracks during this time period ever found in Africa and that this significant find has opened up countless new theories and avenues to research and explore; and

congratulates the team of researchers, particularly the South Africans who led the team, for this remarkable, once in a lifetime discovery.

Agreed to.

(Draft Resolution)

Mr N E GCWABAZA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes that Chad le Clos picked up two medals on the opening day of the World Cup in Tokyo on Tuesday, 14 November 2017;

further notes that Chad le Clos won the 50m butterfly in 22.49sec and came second to Russian freestyle sprint king Vladimir Morozov in the 100m freestyle;

acknowledges that Le Clos is more than 100 points ahead of Morozov in the male rankings for the World Cup series‚ which wraps up in Singapore at the weekend;

thanks le Clos for consistently flying the South African flag high in international arena as well as making South Africans proud; and

wishes him more success in his future endeavours.

Agreed to.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms N NCUBE-NDABA (ANC): The ANC condemns the increasing attacks on paramedics in the Western Cape whilst they are on duty. We have learned with shock of another attempted robbery incident targeting the Emergency Medical Services, EMS, staff which resulted in red zone being declared in Cape Town’s Mfuleni area recently.

On Friday 17 November 2017, no ambulance was allowed to enter the Mfuleni area without a police escort, after it

was declared a red zone following an attempted armed robbery of a crew as they entered the local day hospital.

We understand that the attackers fled when members of the public approached the ambulance. The crew were left unharmed and took refuge inside the medical facility until police were able to escort them out of the area.

The attempted robbery took place just over a week after an attack on the N2 that resulted in the death of an 8- year-old child, hours after the ambulance he had been travelling in was forced off the road, and ambushed by thugs. The ANC calls upon police to prioritise cases of attacks on emergency services personnel. The full might of the law must be applied to the thugs that continue to terrorise communities. I thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr S MOKGALAPA (DA): House Chair, the recent calls by both the EFF and the ANC calling for Robert Mugabe to be

afforded political asylum or refugee status are appalling and unacceptable. This is against the law, specifically the enabling Refugees Act 130 of 1998. Asylum is applied for in terms of section 21 of the Act which also deals with the exclusions ... [Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please wait. What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr B A RADEBE: The member is misleading the House. The ANC has never said that President Robert Mugabe must be given asylum here. So, he must withdraw that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, hon member, lets state the facts as true as they are. Hon member, I am just cautioning. Continue. [Interjections.] No, hon Steenhuisen, can you allow the member to continue.

Mr S MOKGALAPA (DA): This is against the law, specifically the enabling Refugees Act 130 of 1998. Asylum is applied for in terms of section 21 of the Act,

which also deals with the exclusions. In section four, a person is disqualified when he has committed a crime against peace, a war crime and crime against humanity.
This also applies if someone contravenes the UN or AU principles.

Granting Robert Mugabe asylum will be against the South African Constitution and its principles. We cannot allow our government to be a heaven for human rights abusers like al-Bashir, Lungu and Riek Machar. [Applause.] Mugabe has turned from being a liberator to being a dictator and he is not welcome in South Africa. He must face justice in Zimbabwe. We call on Robert Mugabe to resign and allow for free and fair elections to be held urgently to allow the will of the people of Zimbabwe to prevail. There is a chance that their long nightmare of human abuses and economic collapse could be ending. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


(Member’s Statement)

Ms H O MKHALIPHI (EFF): House Chair, the EFF notes political development in Zimbabwe, where the people, the army and Zanu-PF have been empathically telling President Mugabe to step down.

We further welcome the decision of the Zanu-PF central committee to entrust Comrade E D Mnangagwa with the responsibility of salvaging the revolution in Zibwabwe and lead that country towards economic prosperity for the benefit of the Zimbabeans.

We also ask Zanu-PF and Comrade Mnangagwa not to be coerced by the west into abandoning the land restoration project which remains our common cornerstone for economic freedom in our life time. While we respect the work President Mugabe has done over the past, he surely took his eye of the ball in the past few years and allowed Grace Mugabe and her criminal network to take over the leadership of the party and of the state.

President Mugabe must resign and enjoy his last remaining years peacefully with his family with some of his dignity still intact. We further support the call of most

Zimbabeans that Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula and that criminal mind called Bongo must stay out of the situation in Zimbabwe and let the people of Zimbabwe resolve their problem the best way they know how.

Mr B A RADEBE: Point of order, Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member?

Mr B A RADEBE: I am rising on Rule 84. The member has just use unparliamentary language against the member of the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that is really unparliamentary. You are talking about a member of this House. Can you withdraw that?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI (EFF): That Bongo is a criminal?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please

... [Interjections.]

Ms H O MKHALIPHI (EFF): He is in front of the ethics committee.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, no, no. You know ... [Interjections.]

Ms H O MKHALIPI (EFF): Bongo has bribed the parliamentary enquiry person. Bongo has dished more than R40 million

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member, please withdraw. Hon member are you not going to withdraw?

Ms H O MKHALIPHI (EFF): No, I am not.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, if you are not going to withdraw, please leave the House.

Ms H O MKHALIPHI (EFF): With clear conscience that Bongo is a criminal.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto: Thank you very much, hon member. Please leave the House, hon member.


Nks H O MKHALIPHI (EFF): Ungangiqathi phela ngimile, ngisaqoqa la.


(Member’s Statement)

Dr P MAESELA (ANC): Chair, the ANC learns with shock of the reports of an incident where a private undertaker’s trailer carrying 42 coffins from Charlotte Maxeke Academic Hospital to Olifantsvlei cemetery for a pauper’s burial, dislodged its wheels on M1 south just after Smith street off-ramp. Out of the 42 bodies, 16 were adults and
26 were just stillborn babies, whose families preferred not to take them home and requested the government to bury them on their behalf.

The incident is very unpleasant and unacceptable. Even in instances where the family members of the deceased were untraceable, the law still requires that we bury them in a dignified and respectful manner.

The ANC believes that all possible attempts should be done to try and trace the families of the deceased.
Families who might still want to go and identify their loved ones must be given an opportunity to do so. We call upon the Gauteng government to prioritise this investigation and action be taken if anybody is found to be guilty. Thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr E M BUTHELEZI (IFP): Chairperson, despite a decrease in the number of police killings over the last decade, South Africa still remains a very dangerous country in which to serve as a police officer. Faithful police officers lost their lives in 2016-17 financial year in South Africa. In Eshowe, kwaZulu-Natal, a police officer was shot and killed last Wednesday and two police officers were shot and wounded on Friday in Inanda, North of Durban.

Chairperson, lawlessness and criminality know no bounds and our police services, our brave men and women who finds themselves at the cold face of fighting crime in South Africa are valued targets for criminals and crime syndicates.

We call upon the Minister of Police to ensure that our police officers are not only trained to the highest international standard but also well equipped to ensure not only their own safety but also the safety of the citizens of South Africa.

Those found guilty of committing criminal acts against our police officers should face the full mighty of our law and receive the harshest crime sanction. Thank you.


(Member’s Statement)


Mnu N L S KWANKWA (UDM): Sihlalo weNdlu siyi-UDM...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, stop.

Mnu N L S KWANKWA (UDM): ... isikhathaza kakhulu – uze uncede ubambe nexesha lam mama, enkosi – le nto iqhubekayo, ngakumbi phaya eMpuma Koloni, yokufumanisa ukuba iminyaka iyaqengqeleka, imali yokwakha nokulungisa izikolo ibane ibuyiselwa emva kuNongxowa. Into eyenza le nto kukungabikho kwezakhono kwela phondo zokusebenzisa le mali ngendlela. Isenzeka nje le nto uye ufumanise ukuba abantwana bethu bayaqhubeka bona ngokufunda phantsi kwemithi befunda nakwizikolo zodaka kwiimeko apho ezikhwankqisayo nezihambisa umzimba.

Sithi lo rhulumente wenu kufuneka ayiqwalasele le nto kuba minyaka le xa siyiphakamisa le nto sinikwa izithembiso kuphela zokuba kuza kulungiswa kodwa iyaqengqeleka iminyaka kungalungiswa. Asiqiniseki futhi ukuba sikhona isakhono sokwazi ukusebenzisa le imali ngendlela ukuze kwakhiwe izikolo ezisilele ngasemva ukuqinisekisa ukuba abantwana bayahlukana nokufundela phantsi kwemithi nakwizikolo zodaka.

Sicela urhulumente wenu anyuse iikawusi okanye abantu baseMpuma Koloni bavotele i-UDM kuba sanele nini ngoku. Abantu baseMpuma Koloni mabavotele i-UDM ngowama-2019 babone ukuba siza kuyiphatha njani na le mali. Bashiye la masela.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you withdraw that.

Mr N L S KWANKWA (UDM): No, but I was referring to members of the opposition.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you withdraw that.

Mr N L S KWANKWA (UDM): Which one? What must I withdraw?


USIHLALO WENDLU (Nks M G Boroto): Le kanye yokugqibela oyithethileyo.


Mr N L KWANKWA (UDM): But I didn’t attribute it to any specific member of the House, Chair.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, can you withdraw that. I stopped the members from saying that word. Please, do.

Mr N L KWANKWA (UDM): Oh, but you didn’t ask them to stand up and withdraw when they called me isela. Alright mama, I withdraw. Thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms N GINA: The ANC expresses its disgust and pain at the embarrassing reports that a 48-year-old school principal from Piet Retief in Mpumalanga, faces allegations of raping a 15-year-old schoolgirl. The accused has been remanded in custody in Nelspruit and has appeared in court last Wednesday. He allegedly raped the learner from 2014 when she was just 14-years-old. It is further

reported that the learner eventually became pregnant in the process and gave birth to a baby.

The ANC finds it extremely unbelievable that the headmaster who is supposed to be entrusted with ensuring the care of all learners under his care could commit such despicable act. We call upon the department to investigate this case and make a decision that will send a strong message that says we can’t tolerate this in our schools. We believe that the department has a zero tolerance to sexual misconduct. The ANC condemns the scourge of violence against women and girls in the society. Thank you very much, House Chair.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr J L MAHLANGU (ANC): The ANC has noted with regret reports of statements attributed to the Cape Town Press Club secretary Donwald Pressly recently. It is alleged that in reply to a request that Pressly alert the Cape Town club members about a mid-term report briefing on the

work of the Fifth Parliament, he replied “What is so important about ANC thugs wanting to advertise their press conference”.

Clearly, these unwarranted derogatory remarks are an attack not only on the Presiding Officers, but to the ruling party as well. The ANC condemns this arrogant attitude from the journalist, who has compromised his ethics and objectivity by expressing his opinions on the legislature and the ruling party. Pressly’s livid refusal to let the Press Club members know about parliament’s briefing was at odds with the club’s stated objectives.

We understand that he was previously dismissed by the Independent Media as Business Report’s Cape Town bureau chief and parliamentary correspondent following an internal disciplinary process over his conduct in 2014. He was found to have violated the company’s editorial code of conduct and code of ethics by applying to become a DA MP while being employed by the company. We call for his ... [Time expired.]


(Member’s Statement)

Mr Z N MBHELE (DA): Chairperson, Media reports over the past week about a string of armed house robberies continue to shine the spotlight on the scourge of organised violent crime that terrorises our country and citizens and exposes the chronic failure of the SAPS to reduce crime.

Last Wednesday afternoon Durban North and Umhlanga Rocks were robbed by two house robberies occurring within an hour of each other. On Thursday afternoon the Durban home of the Indian Consul General was invaded with eight robbers armed with guns and crowbars who held the five- year son hostage.

This despite the SAPS VIP protection unit apparently stationed there. Last Friday night, at least armed robbers fatally short a mother and critically injured her son during a house robbery in Brakpan. Then in the early hours of Saturday morning Simon Bush, the husband of a well-known speaker and author Nikki Bush was short and

killed during house robbery in Douglas dale, Johannesburg when two gunmen forced entry into their home.

The shooting took place in front of one of his sons who is currently writing matric. Where is the police crime intelligent who identify, trace and neutralise these criminal gangs? The SAPS is clearly unable to reverse the year’s long trends of increasing violent organised crime. The buck stops with Mr Fikile Mbalula and the public demands and answer.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms V KETHABAHLE (EFF): Chairperson, the EFF is dismayed the revelations made by Advocate Varana, the evidence leader on the enquiry into state capture, that Mr Bongo tried to buy him to walk away from the state capture inquiry.

This is further proof that Mr Zuma has strategically deployed his leftenhand to confuse and stifle all

legitimate efforts by Parliament and other arms of the state to find the underlying cause of how the criminal network around Mr Zuma has infiltrated our state.

It is also a damning indictment on the character of Mr Bongo who a few weeks ago vowed to have his conducted guided by the Constitution of the country. But this should come as no surprise – Mr Bongo has a long association with another Zuma enforcer, Mr David Mahlobo; these two and many others ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please take a seat, there is a point of order.

Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Such utterances cannot be made through a statement instead it must come through a substantive motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Which ones?

Mr B A RADEBE: The one she is reading referring to the member of the House about the issues she is raising.
Please, on Rule 85 ... [Interjections.]

Ms V KETHABAHLE (EFF): These two and many others will do all in their power to ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member, if you can please take a seat. I was actually taking advice from the table staff having listened to your statement and a point of order that has been raised.

Indeed, on the issues that you are raising you know as a member that in terms of the rules you will bring those through a substantive motion not through a member statement. Thank you. Order! Hon Mente, what is the point of order?

Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order, that matter is a public knowledge. There is no such a thing as a substantive motion when he, Mr Bongo has been taken to the Ethics Committee due to that information.
How is it that we must now submit a substantive motion – for what? It is a public knowledge.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you take your seat? Yes, it may be public knowledge but

in terms of our rules particularly Rule 132(8) it is indicated that when a statement is read that refers on the character of an individual or any substantive matter that you want to raise, you bring those through a substantive motion. I would really appeal that we do so.

Ms V KETHABAHLE (EFF): These two and many other will do in their power to frustrate any legitimate process to uncover the depth of the rot that their principal has infected our nation with. It is a shame that he is still around ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, again, if you want to refer substantively on the matter at hand, you know that you should do so through a substantive motion.

Ms N V MENTE: Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I am still addressing the member. Yes, hon member.

Ms V KETHABAHLE (EFF): It is a shame that he is still around as a Minister ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I think you need to revisit your statement because it’s anchored on a matter that you know, you should bring in this House through a substantive motion. You can’t read a substantive motion; you need to bring it formally.

Ms N V MENTE: Hon Chair, please don’t do that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): What is it that I should not do?

Ms N V MENTE: Ah, ah, please do not do that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): What is it?

Ms N V MENTE: We have passed the matter ka-Bongo. Now she is reading the general things that she must read. Now, we must stop reading things to this House?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mente, I listened ... [Interjections.]

Ms N V MENTE: We are reading our concerns as a statement. Now, we are waiting for the Minister to respond to it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member! Hon Mente!

Ms N V MENTE: We are waiting for the Minister to respond to it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, hon Mente! [Interjections.]

Ms N V MENTE: We cannot be stopped from reading what we want to voice in the House. We must be allowed to do so. We have a freedom of speech as well ...         [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mente, can you take your seat?

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJEKE: On a point of order, Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mente, can you take your seat?

Ms N V MENTE: No! We also have a freedom of speech.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I have listened to you and can you allow me to respond?

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJEKE: On a point of order, Chair! I rise in accordance with rule 92(8) ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): On Majeke, I will address you. Let me just respond to hon Mente.

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJEKE: Thank you, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mente, I have listened carefully on the point that you are raising. I was advising the member because in the statement that she is reading you can’t have a disjointed way in which that statement is being read.

The core of the matter arises from what I said to her. She needs to do so in a substantive motion. So, if you are not satisfied, in terms of the rules, you know how to address that matter further, so that we can proceed.

Ms M C C PILANE-MAJEKE: Chairperson, I rise in accordance to 92(8), the member of the EFF continues to challenge your ruling which is against the rules of this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. She was clarifying ... [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order, Sihlalo

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon mama [ma’am] Khawula.


Nk M S KHAWULA: Cha [No], kukhona umuntu othe uzongishaya la.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, mama [ma’am] Khawula. Hon member Khawula ... [Interjections.] can you take your seat.


Kuvumelekile ukuthi umuntu akukhombise isibhakela?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can you take your seat? Hon Majeke, I have noted your point however, I was just advising hon Mente on how she can take forward her dissatisfaction on the matter. I didn’t regard it as challenging. She raised her point, she raised her dissatisfaction and I responded to her that if she still is dissatisfied with my ruling, she must take it to the relevant process in accordance to our rules.

MS M C C PILANE-MAJEKE: Point noted Chair, thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I am also not challenging your ruling. I think that is fine. I would ask you that you do come back with a considered ruling on another matter that relates to this. And that is that the reason one has to provide a substantive

motion before the House so that the House can take action.

In this instance, the House has taken action already by referring the matter to the ethics committee. So, it does muddy the water somewhat. I am not asking you to make a ruling now, but I would ask that you do go back, apply your mind and come back to her whether the ruling applies in the case where the House has taken action.

Because, if you have moved a substantive motion in the House, it could well fall far off the law of anticipation and a whole host of other rules ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Precisely, that is why I said I would comeback. And if the member is not satisfied – and as you say, if the matter had been brought in this House and referred to, I think it is incumbent upon us to then wait and hear what the process of the ethics committee says.

That is why I said if there are issues of dissatisfaction, about the ruling one has made, let’s

allow the process, hon Mente, I would really plead with you that lets refer – hon Mente, nobody is suppressing you, all what I am saying ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I please respond to you? If you are not satisfied as you seem not to be in order for us to keep on happing this matter, you know in terms of the rule how you actually proceed when you are not satisfied with the rule of the presiding officer. Hon Mente, I would really ask, for progress ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): hon Mente, can I really plead that lets proceed - you are not satisfied with my ruling as a presiding officer! Hon Mente

Ms N V MENTE: Chair, can we stop the part that you have advised on, can you allow us to finish our statement. [Interjections.]


Valani loo milomo nina...



Ms N V MENTE: ... voting cattles!


Ms N V MENTE We just need to finish our statement!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): hon Mente! Can you please ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): hon Mente,

Ms N V MENTE: We just need to finish our statement and deal with what we are here and being paid for.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): hon Mente, can you please take your seat?

Ms N V MENTE: we are being paid to do this!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I know, all of the people who are here ... [Interjections.]

Ms N V MENTE: Yes, so don’t stop us from representing our own people that have voted us into this House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): I doesn’t matter how long you can say what you are saying

Ms N V MENTE: I have to say it because you are cutting our statement.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): you can then take a seat.

Ms N V MENTE: You are cutting our statements, Chairperson!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I ask the next party on my list, to proceed with its statement.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms M P MMOLA (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC believes that the networks of crime have grown in their sophistication across national boundaries. These include syndicates that deal with money laundering, human smuggling as well as drug trafficking and abuse.

We commend Sars customs officials for intercepting crystal network an estimated R4 530 000 at OR Tambo International airport on Wednesday, 15 November 2017. The bust was made by Sars customs officials who intercepted a passenger from Lagos, Nigeria, arriving from Ethiopia carrying 15,1 kg of crystal and ephedrine meth.

The passenger was intercepted with two pieces of check-in luggage that were searched to reveal a rough substance that was covered at the bottom. A drug test for crystal meth was conducted which tested positive. The passenger was handed over to the SA Police Service for further investigation.

Once, again the ANC applauds the law enforcements agencies for their good work. I thank you


(Member’s Statement)

Mr L R MBINDA (PAC): Chairperson, the situation in Zimbabwe is a serious cause of concern. As the PAC we would like to make the following pronouncement: [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Order, hon members, lets allow the member to finish his statement. He is still concerned about the situation. Let him express his concern whether, there is a resignation or none, there remains a concern on his part.

Mr L R MBINDA (PAC): Chairperson, all external forces must refrain from interfering in the internal affairs of Zimbabwe as for the Zimbabwean people and no one else. We condemn any influence from any entity, force or grouping outside Zimbabwean borders.

As a nation, we have a duty to put measures in place to enable ourselves to be able to offer any form of assistance that might be necessary to provide our sister country in giving President Mugabe asylum, if it will help bring about peaceful resolution of the situation in Zimbabwe, so be it.

We condemn the call by the DA that South Africa should not offer President Mugabe asylum, apartheid masters and mass murders of our people are allowed to settle in peace in this country and no one is saying a thing. As the PAC we are in support of the Zimbabwean people in their peaceful efforts to address their matters. And we salute the President of Zimbabwe for heeding the call of the people of Zimbabwe.


(Member’s Statement)

Mr S M RALEGOMA ((ANC): The ANC and the South African citizens applauds the South African Rugby bid team for

having done such a good job in bidding to host the 2023 Rugby World Cup Tournament. We are however, a bit disappointed, after World Rugby Technical Committee recommended South Africa as the preferred country to host the tournament, only for the council to award the bid to. France.

Nevertheless, the ANC congratulates France for winning the bid to host the 2023 Rugby World Cup Tournament, and wishes France success. The ANC also wants to take this opportunity to thank the millions of South African fans who supported and stood behind this bid and most of all, the South African Rugby Union bid team for the job well done. The ANC believes that this is not the end of the road, the country can still bid for hosting other future Rugby world tournaments, and South Africans should not despair. I thank you


(Member’s Statement)

Mr D C ROSS (DA): Hose Chairperson, the regression and audit outcomes of 2017 is likely to put unprecedented strain of South Africa’s finances as 26 departments and entities couldn’t present their annual report and financial statements to Parliament.

The audit outcome for 2017 highlights the misappropriations of public funds as the financial mismanagement of government now reaches critical levels. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, SCOPA, has resolved to call eleven of these transgressing departments and entities to appear before SCOPA on 29 November 2017 for not submitting annual financial statements

It is really up to the political and administrative leadership to account if public money has not been spent on its intended outcome. This is clearly the case when you find non-submitting of financial statements in terms of section 65 of the PFMA. The non-submitting constitute dereliction of responsibility and accountability on the spending of public funds and it needs o be noted that the

wait of corruption has brought the country almost on its knees both socially and economically.

Despite this state of affairs, it can’t be business as usual as consequences for financial mismanagement by transgressing officials and political heads of departments and entities are not enforced. We need to restore financial prudence as a matter of urgency and to hold transgressing officials to account in terms of the PFMA and also in terms of the Municipality Finance Management Act and we also have to extend our investigations into the law enforcement agencies to address the misappropriation of public funds. I thank you.


(Member’s Statement)

Ms Y N PHOSA (ANC): Chairpersononce again the ANC has proven wrong its rivals by retaining two wards in Ekurhuleni and the City of Cape Town with a big margin on Wednesday, 15 November 2017. The ANC retained Ward 59 in

Ekurhuleni, with 65,86% and Ward 93 in the City of Cape Town, with 69,98%. This victory is a clear indication that the ANC’s efforts of restoring the people's confidence in their movement is on track. It also shows that the effort to reclaim lost ground in the metropolitan municipalities is slowly but surely getting momentum.

Clearly, this support from voters shows that the ANC continues to be the party of choice for most South Africans and that the service delivery achievements of the ANC are being rewarded. People of ward 59 in Ekurhuleni and ward 93 in Cape Town recognize that under the ANC, their lives have changed for a better.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Phosa, can you just hold on. Can we fix this? I didn’t ... It is a technical glitch. Can you try again?

Ms Y N PHOSA (ANC): Hello! Can I use my ralipwise?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): it is the technical people upstairs. They have to sort it out.

Maybe you can come and use the podium to finish your statement. May be this can allow us to leave earlier. [Laughter.]

Ms Y N PHOSA (ANC): Hon Chairperson because I was interrupted, can I start afresh?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order. You have sixteen seconds left.

Ms Y N PHOSA (ANC): Clearly, this support from voters shows that the ANC continues to be the party of choice for most South Africans and that the service delivery achievements of the ANC are being rewarded. People of ward 59 in Ekurhuleni and ward 93 in Cape Town recognises that under the ANC, their lives have changed for a better.

The ANC congratulates and thanks its members, supporters and volunteers for their selfless efforts ahead ... [Time expired]


concludes member’s statements. Are there any Ministerial statememts?


(Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the government is disappointed at losing the bid. But South Africa congratulates the winning country on the successful bid to host the event. We remain convinced that we put forward our best effort to secure the hosting of the tournament.

Our presentation showed that South Africa is ready and capable of hosting international sporting events. South Africa looks forward to participating on the field on the 2023 tournament in France. By the way, on Saturday, we beat France in the same, in the rugby.

But we must thank all the stakeholders for their support. We would like to thank all South Africans and the rugby fraternity for their continued support. A number of organisations played a valuable role in this particular World Cup bidding. But we should remain proud as a country that we made it to the final phase.

But there are more questions than answers, especially that both the technical team had given 78,88% for South Africa, 75% for France and 72% for Ireland in terms of the requirements. This was also endorsed by the board of the World Rugby, but for some unknown reason, it was given to France. All of us will continue to speculate and only until the World Rugby comes to the open as to how they determined this. Thank you very much.



(Minister’s Response)


Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity and let me thank the hon Gina for raising the issue about the unfortunate situation in Mpumalanga, involving a 48-year- old school principal. Basically, just to highlight this social scourge that very often sexual violation of women and children happens to be perpetrated by persons who are in a relationship of trust between the victim and the perpetrator, which we find most unfortunate because that is a relationship that’s based on trust and dependency.

It is most unfortunate that the people who are supposed to protect the victim end up being the violator in those cases. That’s why we actually appreciate the increased conviction rate that has been achieved by the National Prosecuting Authority in this regard.

Let me also highlight that we are determined as a security cluster to confront head-on, the issue of increased violent crime, especially in the form of heists that have turned to become even more violent, the issue of house robberies, which have also become even more violent.

We are determine to ensure that we collaborate closely as a cluster, be it between prosecution and the police through ...

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Minister, I am sorry, your time is up.


prosecution guided investigations to ensure that we maximise conviction rates. Thank you very much.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Those were the only two Ministerial responses. It ends the Ministerial responses. Hon members ... oh, sorry, I only noted the two. Hon Pandor, I am sorry.



(Minister’s Response)


think it’s important that we do also record our concern at the burglaries that have occurred throughout the country, but particularly, attacks on residences of members of the diplomatic core who represent their countries in South Africa.

I do know that the SA Police Service has taken steps to enhance protection, but it will see much need to be done and it is truly regrettably for us as South African citizens that we have heard such attacks

We will as government intensify our efforts to offer greater protection in this regard. We then of course, would also work hard to ensure that the progress that has been recorded in reducing incidents of crime in our country in particular categories is build upon by addressing in particular, the levels of violent crime that we do have in South Africa.

So, we are committed as government to addressing the plight of many of our citizens and of ensuring that we enhance safety and security in our country.

We also are pleased that the police service is paying greater attention to the matter of drug trafficking. This is a serious plight in our country and particularly affects young people and is something that South Africa should act harshly against and ensure that no drug trafficker is allowed into our country and that we reduce the scourge of drugs and its impact on young people.

Finally, steps must be taken to protect members of Emergency Medical Services and greater attention ...

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Unfortunately, Minister, your time is up.

safety must be given ... Thank you very much.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, some mics are working, some are not. So, I was asking if maybe the Chief Whips can consult that we either not proceed with the notices motion or we allow members to use the podium. I know it might take longer but I think that’s what we can do. [Interjections.] I see people saying we

must use the podium. If your mic is not working, just come to the podium. Order! Let’s protect people’s ears.


Ms M P MMOLA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates addressing the Western Cape drought and proactive measures for future natural disasters.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the resignation of former President of Zimbabwe Robert Mugabe and whether this is not a timeous indicator for a certain member of this House. [Applause.]


Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the shortage of water in the Chris Hani district and its municipalities.

Dr P MAESELA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the development of skills needed to meet the complex and evolving needs of the South African society and economy.

Mr X NGWEZI: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the increasing number of learners at schools across the country, as opposed to a drop in the number of teachers being employed by the state, which is a crisis and places the education system and the future of our children at risk.

Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the establishment of community police forums in order to fight the scourge of violence against women and children.

Ms C N NCUBE-NDABA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates resolving amicably the unfolding political crisis in some African countries.

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the need to put an end to golden handshakes in the public sector in the context of the great need to fight corruption and to try and use taxpayers’ money sparingly.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates former Eskom head of Saxonwold shebeen infamy Brian Molefe’s controversial appointment as colonel in the South African Army’s reserve force.

Ms N P SONTI: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the need for a state food- stocking company.

Ms N GINA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the collapse of services like water supply and housing delivery in the City of Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality that resulted in the Soshanguve community chasing away the DA mayor. [Interjections.]

Mr W M MADISHA: Chairperson, I would want to make a short statement after the whole thing. You know. You and I have spoken.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): So, there is no need for everybody. The statement the member wishes to make relates to his assertion that he had been ignored. Unfortunately, I went through the list as it is stated here. I am not sure whether you do want to move a notice of motion.

Mr W M MADISHA: I want to put it to the House that when I was supposed to rise and speak, you simply ignored me.
That has to be known. That is very wrong. It has to be noted. People must know.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. I take it you don’t want to move a notice of motion.

Mr J L MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the collaboration and benefiting from big Brics countries with regard to manufacturing, foreign direct investment, export promotion of South African products, trade relations and technical co-operation, including training programmes.

Mr S M RALEGOMA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates the development and strengthening of local economies, creation of jobs and promotion of job placements, especially the youth.


Me V VAN DYK: Voorsitter, by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal ek voorstel:

Dat die Huis die skadelike impak van kofferdam- mynbou op natuurlike hulpbronne debatteer, met spesifieke verwysing na hierdie mynboupraktyk wat deur Alexkor en die Richtersveld mynboumaatskappy

PSJV gebruik word in die gebied tussen die mond van die Oranjerivier en Port Nolloth.


Mrs Y N PHOSA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House debates promoting good governance, democracy, human rights, justice and the rule of law on the African continent.

The House adjourned at 18:31.