Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 11 May 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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THURSDAY, 11 MAY
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 14:02
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
Question 13:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker!
The SPEAKER: You are not the Deputy President, hon Steenhuisen.
I have just called the Deputy President ... [Interjections.]
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I address
you in terms of Rule 63, the Rule of anticipation. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, just take your seat. Deputy
President, please proceed.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the proposed National Skills
Development Strategy, NSDS, which is referred to here, is
currently being discussed at Nedlac. The implementation is
scheduled to happen on 1 April 2020, once the consultation
process has been concluded and the relevant legislative
framework has been finalised.
The proposed new NSDS focuses on occupations that support
growth, encourage employment creation and enable social
development. This would allow for the delivery of a range of
programmes and will not be restricted to scarce skills to ensure
that they reach a large number of people, which in the end will
enable them to have access to employment and be able to embark
on self-employment opportunities.
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This proposed plan is aligned with many others; the National
Development Plan, NDP, White Paper for Post-School Education and
Training and other key documents of government, which have set
out important strategies and priorities for development with an
emphasis on inclusive growth as well as employment creation.
One of most critical mandates of the Department of Higher
Education is to ensure that the skills development systems and
all supporting institutions are properly aligned to respond not
only to national priorities but to a wide range of needs
inherent in the developmental state project that we want to see
happening in our country.
The proposed NSDP specifically emphasises the need to address
all these challenges that have emerged from the current
strategy, including, but not limited to the production of
artisans as envisaged in the NDP and the placement of learners
and graduates in the workplace.
The role of the National Skills Authority will be restructured
according to this plan and refocus with its functions
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concentrated specifically on the monitoring and evaluation of
our skills development system. Lessons that have been learned
from the current strategy include the need to strengthen
governance. The proposed plan seeks to establish credible
systems for skills planning as well.
Finally, the success of this strategy and all other programmes
aimed at building our human capital will be judged by the extent
to which our young people, who are the key beneficiaries of
this, will be able to gain the skills necessary to participate
meaningfully in the labour market of our country. Thank you,
Madam Speaker.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Madam Speaker, having listened to the response
the Deputy Speaker gave to the question, should our resolve then
also not be to ensure that we have a skilled and capable
workforce that shares and contributes to the benefits of
economic expansion whilst negotiations are continuing at Nedlac
and also very importantly, inclusive growth? More importantly,
Deputy President, can we ensure that we would know that the
success of the plan depends of course on co-operation of all
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role-players for the benefits of women, youth, unemployed and
learners? What is government doing to realise this and how would
government ensure that all of this can happen? Thank you, Madam
Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, it is quite clear that the
issue of skills development in our country and probably the most
important project our nation should be embarking on is through a
skilled workforce that will be able to restructure the economy
of our country and to ensure that we do indeed create meaningful
jobs that our people can get into.
Right now, the Human Resource Development Council, HRDC, which I
chair is focusing on that but more importantly, the Department
of Higher Education and Training also focuses on all these. With
negotiations and discussions that are taking place at the Nedlac
level, we are certain that those social partners within Nedlac
are the appropriate partners who should come up with innovative
ideas and plans on how we can put our skills development process
into a higher gear.
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Our young people are hungry for skills acquisition and all we
need do is open up all the doors and give them opportunities to
acquire those skills. We are seeking to do this through focus
programmes through our Technical and Vocational Education and
Training, TVET, colleges and indeed our universities as well.
TVET colleges are meant to be the focal areas where we want to
absorb as many young people as we possibly can and skill them
with real skills that are useful in the economy.
To this end, we are roping in as many companies as possible to
co-operate with us at the TVET college level both through
adoption processes and also to curriculum development so that as
we develop the skills, the skills are well attuned to the world
of work and to what the industry and companies also require.
So, I couldn‘t agree more with the hon member and say that,
indeed, skills development is a key area that we need to focus
on as a nation and get all social partners in our country to
participate in. Thank you very much.
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy President, skills, as we have
agreed is a very important aspect of transformation in the
country. One of the problems we seem to be experiencing is that
there is no link between the skills needs of the country and the
curriculum of the different tertiary institutions.
Now, government provides NFSAS funding and bursaries. What is
government willing to do to ensure that the funding provided
through NFSAS or bursaries is in line with the skills
development needs of this country? Very important, the
challenges that we face in the TVET colleges, which are supposed
to be providing the artisans and skills needed, their success
rate is very limited. Could you please advice as to what
additional measures will government take to resolve this matter?
Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Shaik is absolutely right. There is a
need for us to align what our institutions of higher learning
are teaching with what the needs of the country are and
specifically what the needs of our economy are. It is in this
regard that we are encouraging these institutions to co-operate
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more at close range with industry players. We are encouraging
industry players to interface with these institutions so that
the curricula that are offered at institutions of higher
learning are well aligned with what the industry needs. This is
beginning to take place in a number of cases.
This also touches on the second question that the hon Shaik has
raised about TVET colleges. As I said earlier in my answer that
we are encouraging TVET colleges to partner with industry
players either close to where their institutions are located or
to industry players that may well be located elsewhere to bring
them closer and to have a system of co-operation and
collaboration, which will lead realignment of the curricula and
go beyond that by getting young people to be placed in
learnerships and jobs in those companies may be operating in
particular industries.
Madam Speaker, we have found that when this happens, we do get a
number of young people being offered not only learnerships but
real jobs when this type of co-operation happens. We have seen
that happening in the Gauteng area, as well as in other areas
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like KwaZulu-Natal. We want to encourage this more because it is
a way to go, to have a very good symbiotic relationship between
industry and our institutions of higher learning so that our
education is not just theoretical but practical and be able to
respond to the needs of the economy and the country. Thank you
very much.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, a developing country needs six
skills in order for it to move forward. I will enumerate a few:
Infrastructure needs skills; knowledge development and use needs
skills; funds needs skills to be developed and managed and
naturally occurring infrastructure. Skills are just one of those
capitals but this is very central.
Now, schools are full, especially in the Eastern Cape where
scholars reach up to matric without being able to read or write.
This puts them on the back foot already. Now, my question to you
is: How do you propose to circumvent the resultant inability of
them not being able to learn or even to learn to unlearn those
habits that are not productive and therefore are not able to
contribute towards the economic development of the country? Just
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on the back foot of that is the fact that over the medium-term
that we are looking at, the funding of TVET colleges is going to
grow at a very slow pace as compared to the other forms of
education that the country is offering.
Now, this is a matter of concern. It means that for these people
to be able to learn they would depend on scholarships and as
government how do you intend circumventing the fact we need more
skilled people when the education system is not being all that
helpful, and especially from the funding perspective. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, with regard to the
challenges that our country continues to face at the school
level, I am pleased to say that the Department OF Basic
Education is well aware and alive to these challenges and
continues to take concerted efforts to address these problems.
The Minister of Basic Education continues to say that the
important task in the end is to revamp our education system to a
point where we get young children at school level to be able to
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read and write. They have a number of projects and programmes
that are aimed at enhancing precisely that.
Clearly, the legacy of our past tends to catch up with us as we
move ahead. It holds us back but notwithstanding all that, there
are a number of initiatives, which the Department of Basic
Education or the Ministry of Basic Education is embarking on
improving the whole process of learning the whole process of
learning and teaching. Where it‘s making traction, we are seeing
phenomenal results. We are seeing how young people have taken up
the task of learning and reading in an enthusiastic way.
Clearly, the issue of funding is going to continue to be a
problem, particularly now that the economy of our country is not
growing as fast as we want it to. Our commitment to funding and
supporting higher education, particularly at the TVET colleges
is something that is firm and something we are determined to go
ahead with. We will continue to fund those TVET colleges.
Obviously we would like to open as many as possible but that may
not be possible. This is where the partnership between private
sector and the public sector becomes important because through
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this type of relationship we will be able to unlock resources
and reservoirs of assistance that we can rely on to ensure that
our education system produces the type of skills that we want it
to produce. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, the ACDP welcomes the proposed new
NSDS, which we hope will help address some of the many
challenges facing poor and unemployed South Africans, such as
accessing information about opportunities and available skills
development programmes.
If I may, I would like to suggest that the Deputy President
considers using his influence to ensure that when implementing
agents of these programmes disseminate information that
municipalities and constituency offices of Members of Parliament
also become hubs where such information could be made available
for community members. What I want to know from the Deputy
President is whether or not the NSDS includes mentorship
programmes for the various skills being developed? Thank you.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the suggestion that we should
utilise implementing agents as they go about implementing this
strategy, they should also utilise various offices including
Members of Parliament, I find it refreshing and welcome
proposal, which we would like to take up with the ministry or
better still with those who are going to be implementing the
strategy. So, I would like to thank Rev Meshoe for coming up
with that idea. I am sure it is implementable.
With regard to the issue of mentorship, it clearly has to be
part and parcel of this strategy. We already see how mentorship
pays dividends through the TVET college process that I spoke
about. Once we strike a partnership between industry players and
our TVET colleges according to the various disciplines that are
inherent in the TVET colleges, we often find that companies that
participate are able to deploy people. Some of them almost
deploy on permanent basis and they are able to young people
young people in the various skills that they have chosen.
Mentorship, particularly as we are dealing with a very terrible
past of a system that tended to dehumanise our people, we find
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it that mentorship can help a great deal and many who are
participating in this type of process are finding it very
worthwhile. In that regard, I would like to thank Rev Meshoe
again for raising this matter. Thank you.
Question 14:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, as I indicated in a previous
reply in this very House. There is a section called section 92
(2) of the Constitution that says that Members of Cabinet - that
is members of the executive, are accountable collectively as
well as individually to this very Parliament for the exercise of
their powers and the performance of their functions. Now, the
Constitution goes further and says that members of the national
executive must provide Parliament, which includes this National
Assembly, with full and regular reports concerning matters under
their control.
The executive remains committed to ensuring that it accounts
regularly and effectively to Parliament; that I can say without
any equivocation. Cabinet receives regular report from the
leader of government business, particularly when it comes
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whether Members of Parliament are executing their functions or
not when it comes to answering parliamentary questions. Each
time the executive meets, the leader of government business
presents a report on how each member of the executive is
performing and where we find that they are flagging in their
performance. We raised it with them and encourage them to
perform as it is expected. So I have dealt with this matter
quite extensively in this National Assembly. If there is a lack
of clarity on this matter, the Constitution is a document that
should be studied closely, if it‘s not, it‘s a document that
members can have for bedtime reading. [Interjections.] Read it
very carefully and understand exactly what it says. Thank you,
Madam Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy President, I mean in the
interest of the President having bedtime reading around the
Constitution, I wanted to get some clarity from you because it
is correct that it is in the interest of accountability that
members must come to this House to account. Now, Deputy
President we note that Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma, an ordinary
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citizen in South Africa is receiving state protection on the
basis of a security threat assessment.
Now, part of the culture that‘s developing is that even the
President used a report which you mentioned, an intelligence
report to remove a former Finance Minister. [Interjections.] And
worse, he is asking us to give him that report. [Laughter.] Now,
in the interest of accountability I don‘t want the Minister of
Police to come here and ask us to give him a security assessment
for Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma. What I am more interested in asking,
Deputy President, is how are you going to ensure that, in fact,
the Minister of Police comes to account here about fragrant
state abuse, and ultimately how does he ensure that state money
is not being spent on protecting the friends or family of the
President when it comes to this VIP security? Thank you very
much.
Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order.
The SPEAKER: What‘s the point of order, hon Radebe?
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Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, with due respect, the follow-up
question is radically different from the original question.
[Interjections.] It‘s unfair to the Deputy President. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, would you like to forego this
question on the basis of the point of order that has been raised
or would you like to entertain it, anyway?
Mr M L W FILTANE: Point of order, Chair.
The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, I see, you have been on your
feet already.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Point of Order, Chair.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member. There was a point of order just
now. I am dealing with the Deputy President. Hon Filtane, can
you just take your seat, please! Let‘s proceed.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Sorry, will you give me an opportunity?
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The SPEAKER: If you are on the list for the follow-up question,
I will give you.
Mr M L W FILTANE: No, no, I am talking about the point of order.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member, you don‘t raise a point of order on
top of a point of order. Please, take your seat hon Filtane.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, in the light of the point of
order that has been raised, all I wanted to add or say was that
in the interest of enhancing accountability and all that, I
would advise the hon member, the Leader of the Opposition to
have these matters addressed at the relevant committee of this
Assembly. [Interjections.] Thereafter, it can also be raised
here. That is where the Minister of Police would be able to
entertain and answer these questions, and I am sure the Minister
would not be saying that he should come up with an assessment
report himself. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Now hon Filtane, I will give you a chance to raise
your point of order. However, in actual fact, please, hon
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members can we allow a question session to stay that way.
However, go ahead and raise your point of order.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you for the opportunity, Chair. It has
fallen off. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much.
Mr N PAULSEN: Speaker, hon Deputy President in February this
year, the Head of Independent Police Investigative Directorate,
Ipid, Robert McBride reported to Parliament that members of the
Hawks and SA police Service, the SAPS, were fighting over drugs,
at times killing each other at OR Tambo Airport. He further said
that the then Police Minister Nathi Nhleko was protecting these
rogue police. What have you done as a leader of government
business to investigate those allegations and make the Minister
account for his role in the deterioration in the quality of the
work of the police?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker that is a matter that clearly
has to be investigated by the relevant entities of the police
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and indeed also Ipid itself. These are matters that when
properly and fully investigated, a report is then prepared and
handed over to the relevant body. In this case, if it‘s a matter
as serious as this it could end up with the Minister or with the
President himself. So, it‘s not a matter that a leader of
government business would get involved in and conduct
investigations, because the leader of government business
doesn‘t even have the facilities to conduct such investigations.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
IsiZulu:
Mn Z N MBHELE: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, Sekela Mongameli ...
English:
... towards the end of
his tenure as former Police Minister,
Minister Nhleko precipitated a complete breakdown of his
relationship with the Ipid directorate Robert McBride refusing
to meet with him and telling him to report to the Speaker
instead of to him as the Minister. Now, we observed in the
Portfolio Committee on Police that Minister Nhleko would attend
committee meetings with the Acting Police Commissioner Phahlane,
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but not with Mr McBride as part of the complete freeze-out he
imposed on these crucial departments in his former portfolio. My
question is: What measures are in place and what can you do as
the leader of government business to resolve conflicts like
these between Ministers and their senior officials in order to
ensure the smooth running of government?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am able to say that this matter, indeed,
did arise and we had to deal with it. As the leader of
government business, we tried to get the various parties
together and sought to ensure that there is peace between them
so that they can continue executing their tasks. It was rather a
difficult matter to deal with. Many efforts were made to address
this matter. This is the type of a matter where we intervened
without trying to put it on the front pages of newspapers. It is
an ongoing process that we get involved in at the leader of
government business level to try to smooth ways and paths of
working together amongst colleagues. So, this matter was
addressed as it has turned out, there has been a change of guard
and we are hoping that these types of matters will not arise on
an ongoing basis. Thank you.
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Madam Speaker, to the hon Deputy President
now that we know that the Minister of Police has been replaced
with a new Minister of Police. Is there a process that you have
undertaken to ensure that there is some form of continuity from
the former Minister Nhleko to the new Minister Mbalula in order
to fight crime in South Africa? Thanks.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, we have in the execution of
our tasks wanted to ensure that there is indeed continuity in
the work that is done between the changes of leadership in any
government entity, be it at Ministerial level, director-general
level and a whole number of others. In this case, yes, there has
been ... we are encouraged by the enthusiasm that is being
demonstrated by the new Minister in as far as fighting crime is
concerned. I would like to invite all of us to encourage him and
to wish him well in the execution of his very difficult task.
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Question 15:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, over the last 30 months,
this programme that we call Back to Basics in local government
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has become well known and has also become a well-accepted,
transformative intervention. It was introduced by the former
Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs,
Pravin Gordhan, and has had an effect on all municipalities,
having gained traction in the largest metros to the smallest
municipality in our country. It is pleasing to note that, even
in the most remote areas of our country, this programme has
gained so much traction and is being talked about as the one
programme that is being used to revamp our municipalities.
Even where there was a change of leadership, particularly after
the August 2016 elections, we find that the parties that have
come in have embraced this programme and are implementing it.
Multidisciplinary interdepartmental Back to Basics task teams
have done a lot of work in most municipalities to develop
municipal action plans. That is very pleasing.
An example of some of the indicators of success in the
implementation of the first phase of this plan is that 92% of
reporting municipalities had compliant management systems in
place by the end of 2015-16. This must be seen against the
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backdrop of very little previous compliance with or adherence to
municipal reporting systems. It shows that there is a great
improvement.
The number of water service interruptions nationally decreased
by more than half. That is also a good indicator of how well
this Back to Basics programme is working.
However, there are still some challenges in a number of
municipalities. Although there are fewer water disruptions,
there are still problems in the state of water infrastructure in
many municipalities, to the extent that around 10% of municipal
water schemes can right now be described as being dysfunctional.
These problems include poor management, lack of effective
maintenance, and also unfortunately include things like
vandalism and theft.
Some municipalities have had difficulty in paying their Eskom
bills, and the provision of ... in areas of refuse removal has
remained a challenge.
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The first phase of the Back to Basics programme focused on
laying the foundation for a developmental local government by
doing just basic things.
Building on this foundation and all the lessons that we will
have learnt, the second phase will focus on ways in which
municipal programmes can become instruments of social and
economic transformation to build more inclusive local community
economies.
There will be greater focus on issues such as spatial planning,
local economic development and opportunities to improve the
financial health of municipalities.
Al in all, this has been one of the more successful programmes
that government has implemented, particularly at the level where
our people live. As this plan is implemented going forward, I am
sure that we are going to see a totally transformed municipal
government system in our country, the type that we have always
hoped we would have. Thank you.
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Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you, Deputy President, for the answer. At
your summit, did you also discuss the issue of those provinces
that are still lagging behind in terms of the implementation of
this programme?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, at the summit that was held recently,
I would say that the majority of municipalities were
represented. Indeed, all provinces participated. We discussed
areas of our country in which there is still a lack of proper
implementation of the Back to Basics programme. We also came up
with plans and strategies to support those municipalities that
still experience challenges.
So, that issue was discussed.
After that summit, we are expecting there to be greater and
increased adherence to the Back to Basics programme and for our
municipal system to be a lot better than it was a few years ago.
Indeed, the signs are already there. People who participate in
the municipal system are truly enthusiastic and they need to be
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encouraged to continue with the good work that they are doing.
Thank you.
Mr N M KHUBISA: Hon Deputy President, in the spirit of nationbuilding, we must admit that the masses of our people do not
have access to water, roads, sanitation, houses, etc... The
reason most of them are very apathetic is because they don‘t
receive these services or receive them as speedily as it was
announced. Hopefully, 23 years into democracy, we should move
away from saying, no, we are still laying the foundations, and
should try to hasten service delivery.
Now, as we move into its third phase, there are issues that
undermine the Back to Basics programme. One is the question of
non-compliance. There is no consequence management in place. No
punishment or punitive measures are taken against those who are
involved in corruption and who undermine our legal prescripts.
You find that nothing is done.
Secondly, the whole question of cadre deployment is still really
plaguing our municipalities. I must say, Deputy President, that
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we do have a sizeable pool of skills, although we still need
some scarce skills, especially within municipalities. Let me
cite one example. Just before we went to oversight, just on the
side of our Parliament, at the gate, there were about 50 young
people with degrees — Bachelors degrees, Honours degrees,
Masters degrees — and, when one moved nearer to them, one
discovered that some of them had some scarce skills. Some of
them had engineering degrees but they would tell you about being
unemployed for five years. This is the issue that we are facing.
What can be done to address these matters that I have referred
to, hon Deputy President? Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Before I call on the Deputy President to respond,
can I discourage the making of examples because, while you are
making an example, you tell a story instead of asking a
question. [Interjections.] Hon Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I wanted to tell a story as
well.
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The SPEAKER: You have the right to tell a story because you are
answering. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: I would like Members of Parliament to ask
questions.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, in answering hon Khubisa‘s
question ... because he started outlining some of the challenges
that are faced by our municipalities ... issues such as water,
roads, and sanitation. I happen to be in the Makana municipality
a few days ago, and I was able to fully realise the type of
challenges that some of these municipalities face. Makana
municipality, particular in Grahamstown, has to deal with a 200year old infrastructure in terms of maintaining and revamping it
to make sure that the 82 000 people who live in that
municipality have the best service delivery. Those are the
challenges that they face and they have to address them,
particularly when in comes to a very, very small budget or
revenue stream that they get from the residents of the town.
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They have to find ways of repairing their infrastructure and
maintaining it.
In relation to the skills, particularly the young people who
have skills ... A number of these municipalities need highly
skilled people. And hon Khubisa is correct: those highly skilled
people can be found in our country. Many of our young people
have qualified extremely well in some of those scarce skills.
Our task is to go out there and find them. We are encouraging
our municipalities to go out and find these young people and not
just to deploy the usual people that they often have around
them. Those skills are there throughout the length and breadth
of our country. They are there in the form of highly trained
financial people and highly trained engineers. We are
encouraging them to advertise widely and to go and find and
employ these young people so that they can make a contribution
in the municipalities that they run. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon Filtane ... [Interjections.] Hon Filtane is
very energetic today!
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Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you, Speaker. I will not give an
example; I will lead evidence! [Laughter.]
In the context of corruption, in my own municipality‚ Mnquma
Local Municipality in Butterworth, refuse bags are being sold
for R182 a piece. That‘s evidence, not just an example. So, one
of the fundamentals is obviously not in place. In other words,
of the six municipal capital expenditure budgets, there are
funds going into the wrong pockets. I am aware of the fact that
the Hawks are on it. That‘s why I said it is evidence.
Now, the other fundamental which is not in place and which is
therefore an inhibiting factor in the whole programme of going
back to basics is the absence of land. In 2013, the Spatial
Planning and Land Use Management Act, Act 16 of 2013 was passed,
but it is currently not being implemented effectively, for two
reasons. The traditional leaderships — so many of them — are up
in arms against it and, to make matters worse, this has now been
handed over to the Presidency. How do municipalities perform any
functions if they have no land for which they can plan the use
of? Your answer will be highly appreciated by South Africa.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the issue of land,
particularly land for municipalities where people can have
houses built for them or where they may well want to build
houses themselves, is a highly contentious issue because, as our
towns and cities grow, scarcity of land becomes a huge
challenge. The issue of the Spatial Planning and Land Use
Management Act that the hon member has raised is a matter that
is being discussed currently. Yes, there are a number of
sometimes differing views but I am confident that we are going
to find answers even around this very contentious issue of the
implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management
Act and the issue of land as a whole. The process of discussions
to try and find solutions to precisely this question is
underway. I would like to ask that we give it time. Thank you.
Nkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Deputy President, in some way, the
continued slide of the South African economy and the pressure of
local government can be attributed to persistent and significant
infrastructure constraints, which not only affects business, but
also the wellbeing of thousands of people who migrate to urban
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areas every month for a better life and basic services. How will
the Back to Basics programme assist in bringing an end to
disparities between rural and urban populations and ensure
infrastructure development in rural areas? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Back to Basics programme is precisely
focussing on and prioritising the revamping of our
municipalities as one of its key pillars. Government is
committed to ensuring that the disparities between rural and
urban are addressed as a matter of policy and government action.
We want as much as possible to continue promoting development in
rural areas because a number of our people live in those areas.
Communities live there and they were hugely neglected under
apartheid rule. Not that much else was done in the urban
areas...
So, government is addressing both. We are also focussing on
finding ways of attracting investors to get closer to rural
areas so that we generate economic activity and economic growth
in those areas.
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This can clearly be done through a variety of ways such as agroprocessing which we are focussing on, and a whole number of
other activities like the agri-parks that we have embarked upon.
Through this, we are hoping to create a community of progress
and success, particularly at the economic level.
So this is a matter that we are very keen to continue focussing
on. Thank you.
Question 16:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: South Africa is much as we may be going
through number of challenges and where many people believe that
we‘ve got serious challenges and problems, particularly at the
economic level, it could also be at the political level; but
what remains and what needs to be said is that our country is
far more stable and far more prosperous and in many important
respects it has become relatively more equal society than it has
been for the past decades.
We emerged from a divided to adopt a Constitution that is
admired all over the world and this Constitution has formed the
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bedrock of a new and better society for South Africa. We have
established democratic institutions that are stable and robust;
and we should be proud that we‘ve got so many democratic
institutions, some of which are independent; and these are
democratic institutions that we should defend, promote and make
sure they continue existing and have integrity.
In addition to the Chapter 9 Institutions established to support
constitutional democracy, there are thriving civil society
organizations that work to advance the values of our
Constitution, that are made up of a wide variety of our people
in their diverse nature. We have regular elections for all
spheres of government, which have consistently seen higher voter
turnout and have resulted in several instances in the smooth
transfer of power at all levels.
We have achieved and maintained macro-economics‘ stability and
have managed our public resources prudently, continuously,
sustainably and progressively.
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We have a stable, effectively regulated and adequately
capitalised financial sector and a diversified economy.
South Africans are very active in challenging the state; and
indeed, challenging the private sector to give effect to the
socio-economic rights that are enshrined and embodied in our
Constitution.
The South African economy has expanded significantly since 1994,
it is now around 85% bigger in real terms than it was in 1994.
Real per-capita Gross Domestic Product, GDP, is about a third
higher than it was in 1994. About 8 million more South Africans
are in employment, more than we had in 1994. In other words, we
have created, since 1994, 8 million and more jobs.
The number Africans and women participating in the labour market
have more than doubled. The growth of the black middle-class has
been accompanied by a significant drop in both absolute and
relative poverty.
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You may think that I‘m just rattling statistics. I will invite
you to go and read the publication that was put out by the South
African Institute of Race Relations, who, for decades and
decades have been analysing and monitoring the progress of our
country and nation economically, socially and politically. And
they came out with a report that confirms all this; where they
said, truth be told, we have made progress in the past 23 years,
whether people like it or not that is the reality of our
situation.
Some people may not like the fact that we have made this
progress, some people may feel that it is not sufficient
progress. Let me hasten to add, we will all agree in saying that
it is not sufficient and our people also agree that mush as we
have made progress, it isn‘t sufficient, we want more progress
because as South Africans we expect the best, we expect nothing
but the best and I would agree with that. Even the government
acknowledges that despite the various challenges that we have,
we‘ve made progress but we still need to do much more.
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South Africa is a more prosperous society. The benefits of
economic growth have reached some but have not reached all. We
have not grown enough and created sufficient jobs, that we must
admit and our task now is to create more jobs to grow the
economy more to ensure that new the new entrants in the labour
market, particularly young people, do find space in the economy.
There has been progress in making the economy more
representative, but that too is not enough.
What we really at is that the glass is half full, it‘s not half
empty and our job is to make sure we fill this glass and make it
more full so that all our people can benefit; one can put it in
a different way, can reap the economic dividends of the
democracy that we won in 1994. So, we have made progress. Much
more still needs to be done and this government is determined to
make sure that we do indeed make progress in a variety of ways
so that we can continue building this nation to deliver the best
of what South Africa can give to all its citizens. Thank you,
Madam Speaker.
Sesotho:
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Mme S P TSOLELI: E re ke lebohe Motsamaisi wa dipuisano ka
motsotso oo ke o fumaneng. Ke lebohe le tlhakisetso eo
Motlatsamoporesidente a re nehang yona e totobetseng mmoho le
diphephetso kaofela tseo Afrika Borwa e nang le tsona moruong wa
naha.
English:
Deputy President, the majority of our people – yes, they do agree that we have travelled a remarkable journey as the nation
during the past 23 years from an apartheid state to a
constitutional democracy. This includes the fact that a general
consensus has been reached on an economic vision of our country
with the adoption, implementation and funding of the National
Developmental Plan.
Deputy President, what do government envisage will be the impact
of the recent downgrade by the rating agencies on the
implementation of our economic strategy going forward? I thank
you.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Downgrading by two rating agencies is
obviously going to have a negative impact on our country and on
our economy. This, clearly is a matter that should not take
lightly because once you‘re downgraded you‘re basically having
to dig your way out of a hole; you‘re in a situation where debt
is going to be more expensive; where you‘re going to start
struggling raise debt; where debt providers are not going to be
too enthusiastic to give you or provide you with debt easily and
when they do they will be asking you for an arm and a leg. So,
your interest payment is going to go up.
This becomes even more so of a challenge for us because our
economy is not growing at the levels that are going to make it a
lot easier for us to get out of the situation. But
notwithstanding all that, the government and – may I add together with our private sector partners and our labour
partners are determined to continue cooperating, to make sure
that the downgrading is not a long-ended type of process that we
should find ways of immediately out of this downgrading scenario
that we are in now. And in doing so, we should begin doing
things correctly; we should address some of the issues that the
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debt providers have raised; in doing so we should therefore
cooperate more vigorously and this is already underway, the
business community as well as labour and communities are already
meeting, we‘ve setup a task team that is going to look at the
implications of the downgrading and the Minister of Finance
actively involved in his discussions and collaboration with
them. Indeed the economic cluster, departments or ministries are
also going to continue doing that.
We‘re basically saying that all of us must look at this as a
common problem; it‘s not a problem of the Minister of Finance
alone or problem of one person alone in government. It is a
common problem which all of us must address. What is also
requires is that all South Africans, through their various
formations must realize that we‘re facing a real challenge and
real problem; and we need to have the level o decorum of talking
positively about our country so that we can get out of this
hole. What matters now is that we should dig our way out of the
hole, come back onto ground and make sure we never get into a
downgraded hole once again. [Applause.]
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Despite the self praises, Deputy President,
South Africa is struggling to achieve a stable, equal and
prosperous society. And part of the vivid reflections of such
was the ANC government‘s killing of workers in Marikana. We
heard that you have apologised somewhere at Rhodes University.
What are you apologising on and who are you apologising to? And
why are you not going to apologise in Marikana so that the
people that have been affected are the ones who receive the
apology? Maybe we can look at it as well.
Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: On a point of order Speaker. Hon member
is referring to the ANC killing Marikana people, it‘s out of
order Speaker and he should withdraw that.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Not yet resolved by the court.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, in fact, the issue of you saying it
the way you‘re saying it is unparliamentary, the issue of
Marikana, that‘s the first one.
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Secondly, it‘s a second totally different matter from the
question that has been posed, on the basis on which you must ask
a supplementary question.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, on a point of
order.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I would like to
take a point of order in terms of the rules of the NA if I may?
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, I‘d like to finish with hon
Shivambu.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But Madam Speaker you‘ve given
a ruling, I‘d like to take a point of order if I may?
The SPEAKER: I‘d like to finish with hon Shivambu, hon
Steenhuisen.
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But Madam Speaker it‘s
[inaudible] to the question that you just raised.
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, please give me a chance to finish
with hon Shivambu.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Would you recognise me when
you finish with hon Shivambu?
The SPEAKER: Let me finish with hon Shivambu.
Hon Shivambu, I want to go back, actually, myself, to relook at
what you said. I would like to go back.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Okay. But just as a quick reminder Speaker, the
Western Cape High Court has actually legitimated a phrase that
says that the ANC government killed workers in Marikana. It was
a long court case which Parliament ultimately lost and it‘s now
judgement, which you have not yet appealed.
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The question is within context because we‘re speaking about
South Africa‘s prosperity, stability; which might undermine
development if it is not properly addressed. And we‘re pointing
to an issue that is relevant now, that the Deputy President has
apologised on the Marikana-ANC government‘s killing of workers.
What is he apologising for and why is he not apologising to the
relevant people in Marikana? It‘s linked to that, at least allow
him to answer question and we‘ll take it from there.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let me say, when I addressed the students
at Rhodes University. One of the young people who asked that
question later came to me and said, Deputy President I asked you
that question because I wanted to understand precisely what your
conscience was telling you. And he said – before I come to the
question you‘ve raised hon Shivambu – thank you very much,
you‘ve Clearfield this matter to me because I am the one who ask
this, I now know precisely what you did and how it all evolved;
after I answered him. And I thanked him. And he said, I‘m sorry
if you found it embarrassing and I said no, I didn‘t find it
embarrassing because as a public person or as a leader I know I
have to be accountable for what I do and what I say and you as a
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student, citizen of this country was asking me to account for
what I said and what I did.
What did I apologise for? I apologised, hon Shivambu, for the
language I used. I did say I did use inappropriate or
unfortunate language as expressed, yes in the emails, but I also
said what I was dealing with, the intervention I was seeking to
make was to try and stop further killings from happening. And
for me this was sparked off [Applause.] thank you
The SPEAKER: Order hon members; let‘s allow hon Deputy President
to finish.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And this for me was sparked off by the
killing of the 10 people who had died earlier; and the killing
of those people had happened in the most gruesome manner; and
some of those people were police, the majority of them were
mineworkers. I explained at that meeting that I had served
mineworkers for nine years. The better part of my growing up
years I had committed to working for mineworkers; I had never
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been a mineworker myself, I was asked to go and form a union
together with other people; and I threw myself at this task.
I said it could never be that I would want to have mineworkers
killed or anybody for that matter, in the way that it all
happened. So, hon Shivambu that is what I apologised for. Beyond
that, I also said as a leader I take counsel from what other
leaders‘ advice; and Mam‘Winnie Mandela did raise the matter
with me and she raised it publicly. She said I want to take you
to Marikana and that was her initiative and I said I am willing
to take counsel from Mam‘Winnie and yes, accompanying her and
she will lead me in this process, she will advice, she will give
guidance and she will lead me.
Yes, I am prepared to go and meet the widows of those workers
who were killed and the widows of the 44 people who were killed.
Hon Shivambu, as soon as I made that statement, in the eastern
Cape, a number of Reverends approached me for a private meeting
and they said, hon Deputy President, some of us come from the
areas where many of those workers come from, we want to go with
you, yes to Marikana, with prayer, understanding and all that.
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And we will want to walk this journey with because we want you
to do this right. [Applause.]
Hon Shivambu, it‘s a matter of just saying when it is going to
happen? As a leader I‘m prepared to be accountable and prepared
to confront any situation where accountability is required.
[Applause.]
MS D CARTER: Speaker, following the irrational decision of Mr
Zuma to remove the then Minister Nene as Minister of Finance,
considerable progress was made by government, business and
labour with Minister Gordhan to limit the damage caused.
Subsequently, Mr Zuma acted irrationally once again by severely
firing Minister Gordhan in bizarre and seemingly nefarious
circumstances, plunging us once again into a manufactured socioeconomic and political crisis.
You, Deputy President, have been quoted as stating that Mr Zuma
fired Minister Gordhan ―based on an intelligence report which I
believe had unsubstantiated allegations.‖ My question is, does
this so-called intelligence report actually exist? Did Mr Zuma
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perfidious report as part of the reasoning for Minister
Gordhan‘s removal and are you aware from where this report
originated and do you have a copy?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I always try not to seem like
I‘m avoiding answering questions or ducking and diving. This
question is already a matter of legal challenge and legal
processes and I would like, Madam Speaker, not to answer this
question at this stage because there are legal that are been
filed and this matter is under consideration right now. At a
later stage I‘ll be quite happy to deal with this matter, but
right now there‘s a legal case on this matter and I prefer that
I should leave it at that.
The SPEAKER: I think it‘s quite reasonable.
Mr N SINGH: Hon deputy President, yes we agree with that there‘s
been considerable progress in the last 23 years or so. But,
however, one area where the significant progress is the field of
corruption, the Centre for Violence and Reconciliation conducted
some studies where they found that people in underdeveloped
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areas are angered by corruption. A case in point is what
happened in Ladybrand, R131 million. The research further showed
that the ruling party and the government are protective of
comrades involved in corruption. I would like to know what is
your assertion on this research view, that government is not
doing enough to prevent corruption in our country and it‘s
becoming a cancer in our society?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think all of us know and are aware of
the fact that corruption is a major challenge in our country.
[Interjections.] We are all aware that corruption is a major
challenge and our people abhor corruption, they hate corruption
because corruption robs them of the service delivery that they
deserve and all the good things government should be doing for
them.
One time I was talking about the houses that we have built.
Someone who is in the building industry said to me, Deputy
President you say we have built 4.3 million houses, we could
have built double that if it was not for rife corruption. It is
a reality, whether we want to talk about it or not, it is the
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reality that we confront and face; and ordinary people on the
ground talk about and even if we may not want to talk about it.
But the good thing in our country is that it is ventilated
publicly by the free press that we have and we should pay heed
to our people who continue to raise this matter because it is
when that happens that we will be able to address the issue of
corruption.
Clearly, corruption is so rife and it‘s all over, it needs to be
rooted out. It needs to be rooted out, roots and all, and we
need to be focused on rooting out corruption. At government
level, I happen to know that, various level of government, a lot
is been done to root out corruption. A number of people who are
found with their hand sin the cookie jar are being dealt with,
either dismissed or arrested; and clearly this is the task must
continue. With corruption you can never really say you‘ve solved
it all, you need to continue on and on-going basis.
But, it is our determination, focus on rooting out corruption
that is going to be something that our people will give
recognition to. If they think we‘re doing nothing to root out
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corruption, there complaints will continue. Ours is to redouble
our resolve to make sure that we do, indeed, not only talk about
it but we should be seen to be rooting out corruption; and that
is the only thing that will satisfy the millions of our people.
Question 17:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the government has no plans
currently to introduce electoral reform to include a
constituency basis. As I indicated in my reply to this House on
02 November 2016, the current electoral system has played an
important role in ensuring that Parliament is not only
representative ... [Interjections.]
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, as I indicated in
November, I said that the current electoral system has played an
important role to make sure that our Parliament is not only
representative but it is inclusive and also does something that
is very important, that is, to promote social cohesion. It
ensures that all votes are equal, that every vote counts and
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that the allocation of seats in the National Assembly reflects
the diversity and wishes of the South African people as a whole.
It is good and correct that as Parliament and as a country, we
reflect on the relative strengths and shortcomings of various
electoral systems.
I think that we should not dismiss this debate, it is an
important debate, we should have this debate and debate it fully
and thoroughly and then if we agree that this is the way to go,
then we should do so. In doing so we should not just rely on
clichés and think that a constituency based system necessarily
in itself guarantees greater accountability of public
representatives to the public. We should not be beguiled to
think that is the only way in which you can have accountability
to our people. Much depends on the design of the electoral
system whether it is purely constituency based or whether it is
a combination of a PR and a constituency system. I think this is
what the late Dr Van Zyl Slabbert proposed that we have a
measure of both. Much depends on the size of constituencies; on
the design of the electoral system and on the balance between
individual and collective accountability.
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Most importantly in engaging in this discussion we need to
ensure that we do not abandon what I would regard as an
electoral system that has served our country very well. The
current system has served this country very well and it has
promoted inclusivity, even political formations of parties that
would never have been represented in this Parliament if we had
used a constituency base system, are represented and enhancing
the voices of our people to be heard in this Parliament.
We need to remember that we had five national and provincial
elections and five local government elections in which South
Africans have held their public representatives to account and
that in itself is a form of accountability. The success of these
elections should not however, prevent us from continuing to look
at the system that could best serve the purposes we have in
mind. We should not just dismiss the system we have now. Let us
come up with compelling views and ideas of why we should change
the current system that we have. Thank you Madam Chair.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy President, it‘s me. [Laughter.]
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The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker and Deputy
President, I want to agree with you, the current system we have
in the moment has had its advantages and there is no debate
about the fact that it has also had its own shortcomings. I
support your view on the Van Zyl Slabbert report because I think
that a mixed system would be helpful. The big advantage we must
get to is to have a discussion about how do we effect
accountability because in the current system we have seen time
and time again members come to the House and when asked to do
the right thing about holding someone accountable and in fact
voting with their conscience, members come here and they vote
according to party lines. [Interjections.]
We have seen this in the report around Nkandla, we have seen
this in other motions of no confidence. The question I want to
put before you is that considering the fact that the
Constitutional Court ruled that the President has violated his
oath of office, would it not be incumbent on this Parliament to
in fact vote with their conscience and the represent the
constituency they represent in South Africa? [Interjections.]
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Deputy President, I want to understand, would you agree with me
that in the interest of the current electoral system and noting
the Constitutional Court‘s ruling and the process there, can we
encourage members to come on the motion of no confidence and
vote with their conscience and protect South Africans from
corruption which you spoke about earlier? Will you join in
voting with your conscience so that we rid this issue of
corruption by starting at the top?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, with a matter like this it
is quite easy to play to the gallery. I think that we should
enter this debate in a very sober manner because we are all here
on the basis of political party mandates. That is what brought
all of us here. Every single person who came here starting from
the President right down to the last Member of Parliament came
here on the basis of a constituency based system. In fact it
gets worse because this party system plays itself in a
particular way, some parties even have it in their constitutions
that you may not violate your party position and I think that
the Democratic Party has such a constitution where it is said
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that once a party line is determined then you may not differ
from that party line. [Applause.]
That is why I say let us be very careful and not play to the
gallery because right now we have objectively and subjectively a
particular parliamentary or electoral system that has brought
all of us here. It is all very easy to say no, vote your
conscience or maybe what they mean is vote your party conscience
because that is precisely what some parties have in their
constitutions. [Applause.]
When you combine individual conscience and party conscience I do
not know which one is best but the reality of the matter is that
let us leave the issue that is on the table now, the vote of no
confidence and not try and make it toxic by talking about the
electoral system in a wishy-washy manner. What I think we should
do is to say that we have a particular electoral system which
has given rise to this and that problem and therefore let us
have a discussion and a debate and resolve that. Once we have
resolved that, we will then be able to say do we amend the
Constitution or the electoral law so that we are clear as we
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move forward. Then at that stage, hon leader of the Opposition,
you will then be able to pontificate and stand on a platform and
play to the gallery and say this is what should be done, this
consciousness that and so forth. That is what I believe will be
most helpful otherwise we are just talking to the gallery. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
Ms H O HLOPHE: Deputy Speaker, Deputy
President, in the spirit
of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are you saying that
the ANC Members of Parliament have forfeited their rights as
public representatives? Also, the former Deputy President which
is Motlhante and Mbeki have also made a call to the Members of
Parliament to vote on behalf of the people of South Africa to
protect this country because this country is going down to the
drain. Are you going to support that view in the vote of no
confidence in Zuma or you are just going to close your eyes and
ears and allow this country to go down to the drain through the
corrupt route.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that the hon member and I will
agree on one thing that we do not want this country to go down
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the drain. Once the country goes down the drain you will not
even find it because it will be flushed away through the
sanitation system, the sewer system and I do not think that is
where we want to find our country. So, obviously, we are facing
great challenges, we are facing enormous challenges as a country
but we need to have cool heads. We need to be sober and address
these problems in a rational way and a rational way is not
thinking that our country should go down the drain.
Yes, you referred to former Presidents of this country who have
taken certain positions. I haven‘t had a discussion with them
regarding those positions. Those positions are obviously
motivated by the thoughts and views they have and I think that
here we are also motivated by the thoughts and views we have. My
answer goes back to the first answer I gave to the hon Maimane.
This is not trying to run away from any problem or challenge, we
have a party system. The party system dictates that we should
exercise our responsibilities in particular ways and it gets
worse, as I said, our parties in a very dictatorial way in their
constitutions tell their members what to do and what not to do.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
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Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, when one takes
note of Dr Van Zyl Slabbert‘s Commission, this commission was
instituted by the then Minister of Home Affairs Prince
Mangosuthu Buthelezi, it had high components of social cohesion.
It also needed to look into: The electoral system with a view to
recommend some of the reforms that would include a PR system and
a constituency based electoral model that would enhance
democracy; ensuring greater accountability of public
representatives to the electorate; minimise the power of
political parties over their public representatives. I would
like to find out from our Deputy President, at which point is
the current electoral system addressing the ABC areas and has
there been any other commission apart from Dr Van Zyl Slabbert‘s
Commission which one can benchmark where we would be going as a
country? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There has been another entity that looked
at more or less the same thing that the late Dr Van Zyl Slabbert
looked at. It just escapes my mind at the moment. Let me say
that there has been quite a number of iterations whereas South
Africans in whatever form or shape we are beginning to look at
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and debate the issue of our electoral system. That in itself is
a good thing; we need to continue doing so. The ABC provisions
or conditions that Dr Van Zyl Slabbert looked at I believe that
they are currently addressed. They may not be addressed as
directly as he would have envisaged through a constituency basis
but in the end the issue of C minimising the political power, I
think that it is.
We are a multi-party Parliament that is composed of various
political parties. Through practice we have been able to
demonstrate that even a majority party can have its own wishes
and intents tempered by the participation of other parties,
either through discussions, taking on board the suggestions they
make and recognizing that all of us as leaders here we have new
ideas and nobody has a monopoly on intelligence or truth. That
in itself putting all of us here in this House begins to
minimize the domineering power of one party over all other
parties because we exchange views and we interact at a close
range.
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The other issue of course is accountability. I think that
through this House, what has happened in this House and maybe at
the end of the year we should do an assessment of how we have
made this House much more accountable or better still the
executive much more accountable. I believe that as a member of
the executive I am accountable to this Parliament. Indeed as the
executive we are accountable to this Parliament. Accountability
is enhanced and representivity is to be found here in this
Parliament. I think that what the late Dr Van Zyl Slabbert
envisaged can be found in the current system but clearly there
could be room for enhancement, we could add bells and whistles
to the system we have to make it much more robust, credible and
legitimate but I believe that we have a very legitimate
Parliament as it is now that is accountable to our people. Thank
you, sir.
Mr B T BONGO: Hon Deputy Speaker, ...
IsiZulu:
... ngibonga kakhulu Sekela Mongameli ngokuphendula kahle
kangaka lo mbuzo lo esibhekene nawo.
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English:
Hon Deputy President, this issue of voting with your conscious I
do not know why it is only applying to members of the ANC and I
also do not know why members of the opposition think that voting
using your conscious means you must vote with the DA. I think
that it is highly a misnomer. Arising from the Van Zyl Slabbert
Commission there is a narrative that presupposes that the
current electoral system aggregates the political influence over
the influence of the people of this country. I want you to
share, with the experience that we have, having drafted the
Constitution yourself, to share with the people of this country
some of the successes of the electoral system itself but also
from where I am sitting that this system ... [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy President, you were asked to share,
the question is clear.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: [Laughter.] Okay, hon Deputy Speaker, I
think that the current system that we have as I have been saying
is a functioning system, it enhances democracy. In here we see
democracy at work and we see accountability at work as well. If
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people were hankering for a more constituency based system, that
in itself is not a bad idea to have, it should be discussed and
debated. Maybe we also need to look at how various parties deal
with the architecture of how they function in their own parties,
because from the ANC side where I come from, all these members
who are here are linked to constituencies, each one of us has a
constituency that we are linked to and that we work in and
Parliament also funds the work we do in those constituencies.
That in itself enhances democracy and in many ways, this is what
we have envisaged that much as we have a party based system, we
are only as good in what we do as we represent the aspirations
of our people. Representing the aspirations of our people means
and must mean that we must be continuously linked to our people,
we must remain connected to our people so that there is no
political or social distance between us and the people that we
represent because we are here to represent them.
If we don‘t our people will in five years time declare their own
wishes, they will, as we go back to an election process,
demonstrate whether they appreciate what we have been doing or
what we have not been doing. So, there are good checks and
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balances for the current system but we must debate this matter
and see what system, either a combination of one and the other
could best work for South Africa but right now this system is
not broken, it works. Thank you.
Question 18:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, as the SA national Aids
Council, Sanac, we launched the National Sex Work Sector Plan
last year, in March. Amongst other things, this plan is aimed at
reducing the spread of HIV amongst sex workers. This was largely
in response to the challenge that our country faces in relation
to the sex workers being the most vulnerable – the highest
vulnerable in the country in that it was found that 70% of them
continue to contract HIV.
The plan provides a standardised minimum package of services
that we would like to see provided by all implementing partners
within and outside of government. This co-package of services
has been designed to encompass the multifaceted lives of sex
workers. It calls for national co-ordination of a range of
interventions that are meant to respond to this challenge and
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these are biomedical, their behavioural and social as well as
structural barriers that continue to confront sex workers on a
daily basis.
Now, evidence indicates that effective HIV prevention, the care
and treatment packages for sex workers, their clients, those who
use those sex services and their children should be tailored to
local context and that such interventions should be led and
implemented by the sex workers themselves.
Therefore, the sex work sector plan seeks to support sex workers
not only with health care services but also support them in as
far as ensuring that their human rights are protected and
advanced, their psychosocial and economic rights are also
advanced; the empowerment of sex workers in a variety of ways
economically and otherwise is also advanced.
Many of us may know that the South African law commission was
given a task to look at law reform in as far as the possible
decriminalisation of sex work. The law commission has completed
its work and the cabinet has decided that the report on the work
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that they have done should be released for public comments as
part of a broader consultation process. Once comments have been
received from the public government will finalise a position on
the various options that are proposed by the law commission.
As this work continues I encourage all sectors of society to
support the national sex work sector plan understanding that
reduce infection rates amongst sex workers where in the end
impact on infection rates in the general population while
ensuring that their constitutional rights of sex workers are
protected.
This is an important task that all of us need to embark on
because sex workers are just as great and good citizens as all
of us. They need their rights to be protected and we need to
join them in ensuring that all the rights and services that they
should have are advanced, protected and enhanced. So, it‘s a
call on all of us to join in this task of making sure that this
plan is implemented and implemented effectively.
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When will the law commissions report be issued; it will be
issued soon. It is going to happen. How soon is going to be very
soon and it is going to give us all an opportunity to discuss
the various – if I am protected from those who are hauling about
the plan, this ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please be quiet. You can‘t be
throwing words like this around.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, this is going to be released very
soon and we invite ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! You are out of order! What is
wrong with you? Hey!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We invite all South Africans to
participate in the sharp issue that is going to arise. The
decriminalisation of sex work or not decriminalising it, that is
going to be an important discussion that all of us as South
Africans should have. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
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Ms N V MENTE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Please allow me by
starting with recognising our Sex Worker Education and Advocacy
Task, Sweat, organisation up there in the gallery, from the
Western Cape. [Applause.] When the Deputy President answers the
next question he must know that they are sitting there and are
listening to you. Those are the courageous members that protect
sex workers.
Deputy President with the answer that you have provided
acknowledging that we have a vulnerable group and you are
sitting with the law reform findings in the cabinet, we just
want the day as to when and where are you releasing it? Now, the
current law in South Africa allows men to buy sex but it
criminalises women for selling sex who are at work! How is that
allowed in a democratic country? When are we decriminalising sex
work. We are talking about women who are at job. They are at
work and they are not doing anything wrong. So, we must protect
women in South Africa. We want to know when are you
decriminalising the whole system. Don‘t allow men to buy sex
when you cannot allow women to sell sex. Thank you.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, clearly this topic evokes
a lot of interest.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I notice that, hon Deputy President, and I
wish hon members could be quiet because your noise is not
improving your arguments at all.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: For a minute, I thought I was being booed
but it is quite clear that people are talking about this in an
excited way, because this evokes a lot of interest and
excitement amongst people. So, Deputy Speaker, the hon Mente has
raised an issue and it is quite a serious issue. It is a matter
that the SA Law Commission has dealt with and in their report
they obviously go deep into this matter and they are going to
put out a number of options.
The reason that the Cabinet felt that this matter should be
released for public discussions and debates is precisely that,
that there are different views amongst South Africans on this
matter; whether to decriminalise or to retain the
criminalisation.
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Now, when it comes to criminalisation it is quite buzzer in the
sense that sex workers themselves say that this is so
contradictory because on the one hand the government hands out
condoms to sex workers and everyone. So, sex workers participate
in getting these condoms but as soon as they have them – and
these are tools of their trade and once they have these tools of
their trade - police are waiting for them around the corner.
They arrest them and confiscate the tools of their trade. And
that is why they say how can a government act in such a
contradictory manner? The one hand gives us condoms the other
hand takes the condoms away from us while we are conducting our
business and our work.
Now, these are matters that need to be discussed properly
amongst all of us as South Africans. And it is quite a serious
matter because a number of other people have religious views on
this matter others have moral views, and others have ethical and
a whole number of other views; cultural views and some party
views, and you name it. Some parties have views on this matter
and others have gender views, and what have you.
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So, what we need to do, once the report is released, and it‘s
going to be released soon, hon Members, and it is going to be
released soon. Thereafter, the debate must rage and out of the
debate that will rage the government will then be able to arrive
at a conclusion which in the end will finally be brought here in
Parliament to be debated. And thereafter, we may have to amend
the law into one shape or form or another. So, that is the
invitation to all South Africans to participate in this very
important matter. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms A M DREYER: Mr Deputy Speaker, what the Deputy President has
said sounds all very good and well, but you have got actually
put your money where your mouth is. The problem is with this
plan whilst it‘s a great plan, is that it‘s not being
implemented and the reason for the lack of implementation is
that your government is not committed one cent to any of the
components of this plan.
Let me tell you exactly which departments are involved: The
office of the Deputy President, Social development, justice,
women, small business development, trade and industry and the
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SAPS have not committed one cent to this programme. They are
relying on unreliable donor funds for those parts of that
programme that have been implemented; so my question is, when
will the Deputy President ensure that funds are committed to
this programme by all the relevant departments and by what date?
[Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, well I am glad that you
have done your homework and have outlined all the departments
that are involved. The office of the Deputy President is not an
implementing department. I just want you to know.
[Interjections.] Listen first. That office does not even have
money to implement anything. Just be aware of that. However, I
am quite happy that you are saying from your knowledge, your
either research or evidence the plan is not being implemented. I
find that hard to believe, but I am going to follow this one up
and then when I come here next you can ask me the question again
to see the extent to which this matter is being implemented.
Because I launched it and in launching it, it was backed by
funding; funding was available.
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When I launched it the active participants were the sex workers
themselves who were very pleased that finally government is
coming to their aid and assistance. So, I will follow this one
up and I will not agree or deny what you are saying but I will
find out and comeback to you.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, let me once
again thank you for your intervention in Johannesburg where the
police had confiscated the condoms of the sex workers and your
intervention helped and had them returned.
Yes, I agree with you, Deputy President, that a lot of work has
been done by the SA Law Commission and one such intervention was
where South Africa had proposed even in the SADC region, where
countries were calling for criminalisation, a law on HIV
specific, and South Africa actually successfully opposed that
which was on the interest of all the sex workers who were mainly
the target. Thank you very much for that.
Deputy President, it is quite obvious that sex workers at the
moment are being harassed and intimidated, especially by the
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police officers. Now, while this entire process is unfolding, do
you think there is something that government can do to protect
the sex workers until this matter is resolved, from any further
harassment and intimidation?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Speaker, clearly the harassment of
sex workers in my view should stop because they are people just
like all of us and if they are transgressing various laws then
they need to be dealt with. But, as far as the work that they
do, one would like to see a situation where, yes we go through
this matter and finalise it. And thereafter, their situation
should be addressed once again. So, it is a suggestion from the
hon Shaik Emam. It is something that I think in a number of
other areas is sort of being observed but the law is the law.
Currently the law in our country prohibits that type of economic
activity. Hence I spoke the two hands of the law that do not
talk to each other. On the one hand we assist and on the other
hand we arrest. That should not be a matter that we easily get
involved in. Thank you.
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Ms C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, according to the 19th tradition of
the SA health review South Africa has over 150 000 adult sex
workers and over 30 000 child prostitutes. The Deputy President
has spoken of programmes for sex workers to promote safe sex yet
studies shows that programmes to promote safe sex practises are
notorious for failing, for many reasons, including poor mental
health, low self-esteem, and the drug habits that undermine
motivation and the ability to adopt safer sex behaviours.
Deputy President, France is one of several countries now
criminalising prostitution and has made the buying of sex
illegal as opposed to the selling. Decriminalising creates a
buyers market, of course, making sellers even more vulnerable.
Have you considered that criminalising prostitution and making
the buying of sex illegal would result in greater protection for
women and children, both boys and girls?
To me it feels like we are presently capitulating to the wellfunded campaigns pushing the interest of the multibillion dollar
industries run by organised crime syndicates. We have to be more
creative than we are being now and we cont just sell women and
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children down the drain into even worse predicament than they
already are. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, the issue that the hon
member is raising is precisely the debate that we should have.
Other countries and she sighted one, have decriminalised sex
work in part. They criminalise the buying and decriminalise the
selling. Other countries do it the other way round. Now, those
are the options that are open.
Other countries continue to criminalise the selling as well as
the buying. If you are both found in the act you are both
arrested and charged. In other cases they only look at the buyer
and charge the buyer and let the seller scot-free. So those are
the debates that we should have as a country. And if you like
the Northern hemisphere countries have opted for one form or
another. And the doing is still out on how effective
criminalising the buying rather than selling is most effective
and works better. In the end, I would say let the debate be
entered into. Let us debate this matter, discuss it and see how
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best we come out as South Africans. In the end it is going to be
a South African solution to a global challenge and problem.
The issue of the number of sex workers in our country is moreor-less agreed as well as children who are brought into
prostitution or sex work, so once we have had this debate we
will be able to give maximum protection to those vulnerable
communities who require the protection of the law and the
Constitution. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Deputy President. That concludes
questions to the Deputy President. [Applause] The next item on
the Order Paper is motion in the name ... [Interjections.] Yes
hon member, what are you rising on?
Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, just before we continue with the
rest of the programme, I notice something today in the House
which is quite disturbing. And I think that there is actually
two points; and we should put it on record that your talk button
– the speaker‘s list has been reset during the actual question
time by the speaker. I pushed the button and the light went on
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and she looked at me and switched it off. She cleared it and we
pushed the button again.
I, please, want to make a request that if it is not available
that for today‘s sitting that from question 13 to question 15
the speakers list are made available and also for any reset that
was done in between. And that it should be a standing order that
the speakers list must be made available for all political
parties. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, it‘s done. Hon members, can I make a
ruling on this. [Interjections.] Hon member, you to take that
matter formerly to the rules because I think you are making an
appeal, and so on. However, I will say that as Presiding
Officers we ensure that we have an inclusive list in all the
lists of political parties that ask questions. So, that is the
decision that we make from here. But you can present that to the
rules for us to look at it, and so on. We will give you an
additional answer there.
SUSPENSION OF RULE 290(2)(a)
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(Draft Resolution)
BORDER MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY BILL
(Consideration of Report thereon)
[TAKE IN FROM THE MINUTES]
BORDER MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: The Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers
and Deputy Ministers, hon members of the National Assembly, the
introduction of Border Management Authority Bill of 2016
represents a radical shift from colonial and apartheid systems
that were informed by a desire and mission to create and sustain
racism, hostilities and hatred rather than dignified migration.
The mission and vision of the Border Management Authority are
embedded within democratic values and deep respect for a culture
of human rights.
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The Freedom Charter correctly asserts that no government can
justify clean authority unless it is based on the will of the
people and the people must share in the country‘s wealth; and
also ensures that peace and friendship prevail and South Africa
is a fully independent state. The NDP Vision 2030 reminds us
that today South Africa looks completely different from the
South Africa before 1994.
The NDP states that in the next few decades the world will
experience unprecedented changes. These include an explosion of
urbanisation which will create wealth and sharpen strains on the
ecosystem; revolutionary developments in science and technology
that will transform opportunities, introduce new risks, and
drive wider social integration and the rebalancing of economic
power from the developed to developing countries that will
potentially lift another billion people out of poverty.
We firmly believe that the Border Management Authority‘s vision
is in line with Africa‘s development vision, Agenda 2063. Agenda
2063 asserts that Africa shall be a continent where the free
movement of people, capital goods and services will result in
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significant increases in trade and investment amongst African
countries, rising to unprecedented levels and strengthening
Africa‘s place in global trade.
The Border Management Authority will play an important role in
supporting the creation of an inclusive and growing economy at
the frontline of our country‘s borders by facilitating the
legitimate movement of people and goods. It will also facilitate
the skilling of our border guards and ensure that we work in
line with new technologies which ensure security and reliability
of information.
The Border Management Authority will fully embrace the digital
revolution, as I have said hon members. Today, over 40 million
people enter and leave our country on an annual basis. People
come to South Africa for different reasons. Some come as asylum
seekers, economic migrants, others seeking education and
training opportunities and, of course, some come to enjoy the
leisure and tourism in our country. However, border management
poses formidable challenges not only for South Africa, but also
for receiving countries worldwide.
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The Border Management Authority Bill before the House today is
underpinned by a number of imperatives including – I‘ll just
mention two – a new policy paradigm of integrated border
management and a determination to facilitate the legal and
secure movement of people and goods across the border. Our
imperatives are further driven by our own national interests
which include the establishment of a secure and reliable
national identity system for all people who reside in South
Africa.
We must be frank about some of the key problems characterising
the border environment in our country. Our fundamental challenge
is that of our 72 ports of entry. In those, there are still
challenges of government departments and state agencies
operating in a fragmented and incoherent manner with conflicting
policy positions, nonaligned implementation, and varied
interpretation of border management regulatory regime.
This inefficient and ineffective border often leads to poor
service being rendered to traders and travelers at ports of
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entry. This impacts negatively on travelers and traders, and
also creates an environment conducive for corruption.
Hon Deputy Speaker, government has undergone an extensive
consultative process with affected government departments
seeking consensus on creating a single command and control
Border Management Authority under the Department of Home
Affairs. His Excellency, ubaba uMsholozi, President Jacob Zuma
made a commitment in 2009 that we would establish a border
management agency. Cabinet resolved formally to establish the
Border Management Authority in 2013 and consequently, endorsed a
vision for the Border Management Authority in 2014. This vision
constitutes the guiding framework which informs the architecture
and substance of the Bill before the House today. Thank you.
[Time expired.][Applause.]
Mr B L MASHILE: Hon members and the guests, it has been a long
road that we have traversed in processing this Bill since it was
introduced in Parliament, almost one year of sweating. Much of
the time was used to ensure that we produce a high quality of a
piece of legislation.
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However, it should be noted that, due to the complexity of the
Bill, it took time to be clear in our minds on the nature and
the character of the animal we seek to establish. These entailed
the Cabinet process, the Nedlac process as well as this
parliamentary process.
Deputy Speaker, I can now attest that there is clarity in our
minds and the affected departments were given clarity on the
intent and the expected process, moving forward. Hence, today we
have a radical Bill that establishes a Border Management
Authority in front of us for consideration.
Hon members, the department introduced the Bill on 25 May 2016
in Parliament. I should indicate that in June 2016 we wrote to
all the departments involved in our land, air and sea ports of
entry for comment on the Bill. The Bill was then published on
14 August 2016 for public comment with a closing date set for
08 September 2016. Of course, only the Department of Justice and
Correctional Services made a written response.
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The Department of Police and National Treasury were engaged by
the committee during the public hearings. On 16 August members
of the Security Cluster committees and the Standing Committee on
Finance attended our first public hearing. This was a briefing
to the committee by the Department of Home Affairs, SAPS and
National Treasury. It was at this stage that the lack of coordination and co-operation surfaced among the Department of
Home Affairs, SAPS and National Treasury. We then urged the
three departments to resolve their disputes by 13 September
2016.
On 13 and 14 September 2016, we held further public hearings on
the Bill. Invitations were extended to Cosatu, Nehawu, and
Business Unity SA, Busa. However, Busa could not attend but sent
a written submission only. The hearing was informed by the
Minister of Home Affairs that the Director-General of Home
Affairs and the Acting National Commissioner of SAPS have a
signed agreement on their dispute. There was however, no
progress in relation to the dispute relating to National
Treasury.
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On 20 September 2016, the Department of Home Affairs responded
to the submissions and verbal presentations made during the
public hearings. On the lack of progress with National Treasury,
the committee further persuaded the Department of Home Affairs
and National Treasury to reach some agreement by 28 September
2016. This was based on the fact that the Department of Home
Affairs sent a proposal to National Treasury on 12 September
2016 for consideration. Of course, National Treasury did not
respond by 20 September 2016, hence the directive to agree by
28 September 2016. These requests drew a blank.
This House should be informed that during October 2016, the
Deputy President was called upon to intervene, as the Leader of
Government Business, between the Department of Home Affairs and
National Treasury. Two meetings were held, the first in November
2016 and the second in February 2017. Both meetings did not
assist us that much. We must indicate that it was a painful
experience which affected our legislative process.
Deputy Speaker, the contention has been a consequential
inclusion of customs officials in the Border Management
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Authority and a possible collection of revenue at the ports of
entry. This issue has now been resolved by the progressive
proposal made by the Department of Home Affairs to accommodate
the perceived fears of National Treasury.
It should now be pointed out that only the frontline officials
of customs at ports of entry are expected to be transferred and
revenue collection still rests with Sars. Also, such revenue
should not form part of Border Management Authority funds. The
goal pursued here was to establish a single integrated border
management command which will take full responsibility and
accountability of all activities at our ports of entry.
Deputy Speaker, in the committee we had continuous fruitful
participation of the opposition parties and valuable inputs were
made on the Bill. The most inputs related to, but were not
limited to improving the management core of the authority,
standards and qualifications, vetting of officials,
accountability issues, co-operation and co-ordination of
stakeholders, implementation, protocols and oversight tools.
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I am happy that we have produced a piece of legislation that
addresses all aspects which may affect the functioning of the
Border Management Authority. I however, do regret the nonsupport of the EFF after their valuable contribution. I hope
that the DA issue has also been removed.
The question to be asked is: What kind of animal is created
here? How is it structured and how will it function? One may
briefly describe it without going into details. This Border
Management Authority is expected to facilitate the legitimate
flow of humans and goods in an efficient manner while militating
against illegal activities across our borders.
The Border Management Authority will be headed by a commissioner
with two deputies, with clearly spelt-out requirements on skills
and qualifications in relation to their responsibilities. We
expect one to deputise for administrative services and the other
for border guard services.
It is expected that the public servants doing duty at our ports
of entry from different departments will be transferred to the
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BMA. Additional personnel will be recruited as required.
Infrastructure and equipments which were used for border
management activities will be expected to be transferred to the
BMA.
We do expect that budgetary allocations will follow these
personnel and functions to the BMA. This is integration to
Border Management Authority as envisaged. Indeed, a radical
shift in border control.
The commissioner will be the accounting officer reporting to the
Minister of Home Affairs. The Minister will chair an oversight
committee of Ministers affected by the activities at our ports
of entry.
There will also be a border technical committee populated by
directors-general or their representatives at senior level. This
is an advisory body to the inter-ministerial committee. The
Minister is empowered to establish an advisory committee to deal
with any specific matter concerning border management. The
reports of the BMA will be tabled in Parliament.
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Deputy Speaker, we should indicate that this BMA is not going to
mushroom overnight after the signing of this Bill by the
President. No, we expect a phased-in process which may take
months or even years for a complete establishment to be
realised.
There is a lot of work on policy development for the BMA;
consultations and negotiations of the quantum of persons; and
equipment and infrastructure to be transferred to the BMA. We
therefore call upon all organs of state involved and affected by
the establishment of the Border Management Authority to cooperate fully. We need this entity as of yesterday to deal with
the porousness of our borders.
Our people have been making a call to the ANC to attend to
border control over a decade now without visible response. We
are now saying, ―Your ANC has heard you and it is taking a bold
step today.‖ This House, led by the ANC, is then persuaded to
support this Border Management Authority Bill of 2016. The ANC
leads and the ANC lives. Amandla!
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Mr M H HOOSEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, if you ask most South
Africans, they will tell the ANC is dying and is not living.
[Interjections.] The objective of this piece of legislation...
hey, shush now – is aimed at addressing the fragmentation of
operations at our ports of entry in the country. The intended
outcome is to bring the various departments that operate at our
ports of entry under a single command and control unit. At first
glance, it all seems like a great idea. But when one looks at
the detail and considers the real consequences and implications
of the Bill, one will soon realise that this is probably one of
the worst pieces of legislation that has come before this House.
But before I do that it would be unfair of me not to acknowledge
and appreciate the co-operation we received from the chairperson
and members of the committee, as well as the officials who
worked with us on this Bill. I recognise that there have been a
number of areas of concerns which we expressed, that were
eventually acceded to and several changes have been effected
since the first draft of this Bill was laid on the table. We are
very grateful for the co-operation.
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However, there still remain many areas of the Bill, which the
ANC have been very stubborn about, leading us to believe that
there are other ulterior motives behind this Bill. In time,
these motives will emerge. I suspect that this is yet another
attempt to create another state entity, which will soon be
captured by the greedy politicians who operate in this
government department.
Firstly, hon Deputy Speaker, this is a framework legislation
designed to provide for the establishment of a massive Border
Management Authority, BMA, that will control our borders and
ports of entry, but not a single person and not even the
Minister herself, or even Gigaba, whose pet project this is, can
even tell you with any form of certainty what this BMA is going
to cost the country.
Estimates are in a region of about R22 billion, yet the impact
assessment recommends that the same exercise could be conducted
by the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, for about only R3
billion, if only they could get their act together and protect
our borders more efficiently.
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The chairperson asked what would this animal look like? Well,
actually it is probably going to look more like a monster that
we are creating. The former Finance Minister, who got shafted
for having the courage to act in the country‘s best interest,
expressed reservations about the costs of this exercise and
warned about the spiralling expenditure. But Gigaba was having
none of it. His usual stubbornness and arrogance stood in the
way of acting with any sense of reason. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member Hoosen, hon member, you know how
to refer to members. Please do it that way and do not just call
him by his name, I mean like you know that.
Mr M H HOOSEN: The hon Gigaba was having none of it. The hon
Gigaba‘s usual stubbornness and arrogance, stood in the way of
acting with any sense of reason.
This Bill was hanging in the air for a while, because Treasury
would not support the financial implications in it. An
acrimonious exchange of words through ministerial
correspondences between the two departments is evident that not
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everyone in the ANC Cabinet is on the same page with regards to
this Bill. But given the recent developments in the ANC, this
does not come as a surprise to anyone.
Just days before the ANC forced the Bill through the committee;
hon Pravin Gordhan was fired and guess who gets to replace him?
One of the other concerns that the former Finance Minister
expressed, is that this Bill aims to capture the customs and
excise operations of SA Revenue Service, Sars. That operation of
Sars brings in about 30% of our country‘s revenue amounting to
billions of rands.
Minister Gordhan supported the views of the Davis Tax Commission
which made very strong recommendations that the revenue streams
of Sars must not be fragmented. However, the new Minister will
tell you that only the customs frontline operations will be
taken over and not the revenue collection.
Well, if this is true, then where will the money come from to
operate the BMA? If the argument is that it will simply be
transferred from the other departments who operate at the
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border, well they were under-resourced in the first place, which
is why these operations at the borders are so ineffective.
Simply transferring the money from one department to another is
not going to give you any different outcomes.
Now that hon Gigaba has managed to elbow hon Gordhan out of the
way, he must tell the country and the world, whether he will be
respecting the recommendations of the Davis Tax Commission or
will he be dismissing its recommendations as he has done in this
case.
Hon Deputy Speaker, the other area of concern is the
constitutionality of this Bill. The Border Management Authority
is being established as an armed force. Its intended roles and
functions are reserved only for the SANDF or SA Police Service,
SAPS, as far as our Constitution is concerned. This is why the
SA National Defence Force has been removed from this Bill
initially. Our view is that the same should apply in the case of
SAPS and such policing functions can only be provided by the SA
Police in terms of our Constitution. Section 13 of the SA Police
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Service Act for example, grants powers only to the police
service to search vessels in our waters.
Then, another problematic part in this Bill is that it grants
officers of the BMA search and seizure powers within a 10
kilometers radius within the border port of entry. In theory,
this appears fine, but in practice it infringes on the rights of
ordinary citizens and is in conflict with a recent
Constitutional Court ruling.
At the OR Tambo International Airport for example, there are
scores of private businesses, courier companies and commercial
enterprises that operate within this precinct.
Whilst we agree that the current border management functions are
far too fragmented, we do not believe that the establishment of
a Border Management Agency is the solution to the problem. What
is simply required is better management of the current systems,
holding officials accountable for their failures, firing the
lazy comrades that you have appointed and implementing better
co-ordination of operations between various departments. If our
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Ministers were doing their jobs in the first place, we would
have not been in this situation and it would have not been
costing us billions of rands to fix the problems that they
created in the first place. [Applause.]
There is no reason why the same outcomes cannot be achieved at a
senior management level through proper transversal co-ordination
of operations.
And finally hon Deputy Speaker, this Bill, although its main
intention is to address the fragmentation of border management,
it offers absolutely no solutions to the problem what so ever.
All it does is create another level of government bureaucracy
which will add massive strain to an already burdened fiscus, but
provide no tangible solutions to the current problems. For these
reasons hon Deputy Speaker, the DA will not be supporting this
Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, the
Chair of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs said here that
they asked you to mediate between the Ministries of Finance and
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Home affairs, to find common ground on some of the issues that
are contentious in this Border Management Authority Bill. We are
now going to illustrate what those are. In the border law
enforcement area, have got a variety of entities and government
departments that operate there: The home affairs, SA Police
Service, SAPS, agriculture, the Department of Trade and
Industry, DTI, through the national regulatory of compulsory
specifications, SA Receiver of Revenue, Sars, and a variety of
other agencies that exist there in terms of regulating the entry
of people and goods into South Africa and their exit, but also
the collection of customs and excise duties.
Now, customs and excise duties, in South Africa constitute 30%
of the National Revenue Fund. More that R300 billion of the
R1,3 billion that is collected by Sars, is collected as customs
and the excise duties. Now, this Border Management Authority
Bill is proposing that it should enforce laws in the border
enforcement law area and that enforcement must include customs.
That is the issue that we are standing to say, it cannot be that
you are going to through proclamation of section 97 of the
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Constitution, shift the powers of revenue collection from the
Ministry of Finance to the Minister of Home Affairs, because
that begins to balkanise. It fragments revenue collection. And I
can tell you today that you will not be able through a new
agency to collect the levels of revenue that are being collected
currently within a Sars component which has a capacity and a
skill to deal with that.
We do not have a problem as the EFF with the Border Management
Authority or Agency, BMA, but we can have that without the
customs collection principle and processes that you were
supposed to have dealt with. So, those are some of the issues
that you must deal with in case you succeed in removing the
Guptas from the ANC, because, it is them who have been saying
that customs collections should be stratified and balkanised, so
that they can have entry into the BMA and give it the direction
that they would be looking into.
There are lots of other issues that we can look into in terms of
how the BMA is constituted, particularly in terms of how
government entities are constituted. It is just going to be the
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commissioner and then who reports to the Minister. They should
necessarily in terms of governance principles be a board that
manages a Border Management Agency and then a commissioner
reports to that board.
If you check into entities that do not have boards, majority of
the times, the commissioners or the chief executive officers,
CEOs, of those agencies do not have proper governance mechanisms
and principles. They increase their salaries as on they wish.
They give themselves bonuses, because the only relationships
they have is with a Minister and without any board that has
committees to look into the functions of that particular entity.
The BMA that is being rushed now, does not have proper
governance mechanisms and it will not solve the problem. They do
not provide any solution. But the most important thing that you
must never do, whether you are ANC, or DA, or EFF is to
balkanise or fragment revenue collection in South Africa,
particularly at the time when we are beginning to gain some
stability.
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I think that we had tried to knock some sense on Mr Gigaba, when
he came to the first meeting of the Standing Committee on
Finance and he admitted that there must not be balkanisation,
but the current legislation, if we adopt it as it is, gives the
powers to the Minister of Home Affairs, through the BMA, to
collect revenue which our customs and excise duties and that is
not acceptable. We must not agree on a Bill that proposes such,
because it is going to undermine the integrity of the revenue
collection in South Africa. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]
Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, as the IFP, we would like to
congratulate Minister Mkhize on her appointment as the Minister
of Home Affairs and the IFP President, Prince Mangosuthu
Buthelezi, would definitely like to send our congratulations to
her.
Effective and efficient border law enforcement at our various
ports of entry and along our borders is mandatory. We are a
state and as such bear the onus and obligation of securing our
sovereign borders, of this there can be no dispute. The
effectiveness of the manner in which we choose to do this
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however, as well as the entities and final authority we utilize
to carry out this mandate are through this Bill, becoming a
cause for concern.
The establishment of a Border Management Authority, BMA, as a
national public entity under a commissioner appointed by the
President, and one which would include elements of the SA Police
Service, SAPS, South African National Defence Force, SANDF,
Customs and Excise and Agriculture, overseeing by the Department
of Home Affairs appears on the face of it, to be a perfect
recipe for potential corrupt activity.
Issues ranging from collection of customs of excise revenue,
which I might add is a sizable annual amount, should remain
within the specialist charge of the SA Revenue Services, of this
there can be no compromise.
There are also the legal issues over the creation of another
policing service, which must be carefully thought through as
they carry with them a wide array of possible negatives that
would have to be mitigated against.
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However, this Bill was delayed last term from coming to the
House over the concerns which were raised by the Department of
Finance and the Department of Home Affairs, to whom we would
have handled the collection of revenue at our ports of entry.
This remains a contentious issue although the departments are
talking about signing a memorandum of understanding and I think
they are finalising now and the IFP supports this completely.
A purpose of this Bill, which seeks to achieve a lot of areas,
is long overdue and absolutely necessary. The manner through
that it seeks to achieve then is subject to question. Checks and
balances must be implemented but still be nimble enough not to
stifle its operation through unnecessary bureaucracy. The IFP
supports this Bill subject to the reservations as mentioned
above. Thank you.
Prof N S KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, and hon members, the Border
Management Authority Bill tabled here today has been in the
legislative domain and pipeline for some time now, and have
generated a fair share of interest, controversy and objections
along the way. We understand as the NFP that there has been a
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tussle with regard to the BMA. There has been a disagreement
between the Treasury and the Department of Home Affairs on the
revenue collection of the new proposed BMA
The NFP understands the value of a consolidated BMA, and in
principle we support the creation of such. Our country has had
several incidents of xenophobia in the past, largely attributed
to competition for scarce social economic resources between the
poorest of the poor and the foreign nationals who do not have
legal right to be in South Africa. These ugly incidents of
xenophobia has opened up a deep wound of shame in our collective
consciousness, and if the proposed BMA could function
efficiently as intended, then it would go some way in addressing
the underlying root causes of xenophobia in our country.
The NFP is also concerned about having a consolidated BMA, which
might look good on paper, but is then entrusted to a state
department which has a chequered track record in the management
of asylumseekers, refugees and immigrants.
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In many quarters, the blame for the influx of undocumented
foreign nationals to South Africa is laid at the feet of the
Department of Home Affairs. Rife corruption and unclear
immigration, asylum and refugee policies have all contributed to
the current status quo, and the root endemic cause of these has
been failure to adopt clear policies. The proposed BMA will be
facing enormous challenges to root out endemic corruption and to
deliver to South Africa a system of border control that is
efficient, lawful and in accordance with our Constitution.
In conclusion, we have our reservations as the NFP with regard
to the BMA and of course we will give a chance to the Department
of Home Affairs to ensure that the Bill is enacted. We believe
that the creation of such a consolidated entity could succeed,
but the initiative now has to filter through policy level.
As an entity, the BMA will do more than merely control border
access, it will be the frontline of implementing policy on
migration, asylum and refugees, and for it to succeed, the BMA
will need to be empowered by clear policy guidelines and plenty
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of political will and determination at executive level. Thank
you very much.
Mr N L S NKWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, I sympathise with you for not
knowing what the Minister‘s name is. There has been far too many
Cabinet reshuffle and we have now lost track of who serves in
the Cabinet. [Laughter.]
IsiXhosa:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Uyithatha phi le nto uyitshoyo?
Mnu KWANKWA: Awumazanga nawe, ebelapha tata.
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Hayi, hayi musa ukuthatha inyoba apha.
English:
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Without a doubt, there is a need for a
sustainable and integrated border management system and
authority that effectively co-ordinates and facilitates secured
travel and legitimate trade in line with the Constitution and
other relevant laws of the country.
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Therefore the creation of the BMA as envisaged in the bill under
discussion is significant in that it seeks to address the
fragmentation that characterises the current system of border
management.
The current system of border management is not helping us in our
efforts to discharge our Constitutional obligations to secure
our sovereignty. We must however note that when you look at
section 5(c) of the Border Management Authority Bill it doesn‘t
spell out clearly the extent to which the BMA or the functions
of the authority are in so far as revenue collection is
concerned.
We also need to be clear about the budgetary requirements and
the source of funding for this BMA given the spread of
responsibilities over many departments like the SAPS, SANDF, and
others.
It is important that Customs is allowed to play a central role
in collecting excise duties and excise tax without being
integrated into the BMA. With all its challenges, Sars remains
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one of the most efficient tax collectors in the world and it
does so in a manner that is consistent with our Constitution.
Therefore, collection of monies must remain a function of the
Sars and we are not happy with assurances and memorandums to
address this very important matter.
Certainly, South Africa is not in need of heavily armed quasimilitary parastatals, run at of the Department of Home Affairs,
which goes around collecting revenue which might be used in a
manner that is in inconsistent with objectives of the Bill and
the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
The Department of Home Affairs must with this context of the
spill remain with its functions in the customs and revenue
service do their jobs as determined by the laws of this country.
For this reasons and reservations that we have expressed here,
the UDM doesn‘t support this Bill. Much obliged to you, Deputy
Speaker, I thank you.
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Ms D D RAPHUTI: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members and
distinguished guests, the ANC supports this Bill and happy
Africa day.
We want to say to all South Africans and our African brothers
and sisters, happy Africa month. However, if you say that you
love your country and Africa, you will abide by the laws that
govern it.
South Africans, you have spoken. You are still speaking to our
government that our borders are porous. The BMA presented here
today in Parliament, seeks to address your plight. The
porousness of the borders has resulted in many challenges, which
are human trafficking and undocumented people here in South
Africa.
As you will recall a week ago, the so-called man of the cloth, a
preacher from a foreign country was molesting our young girls
here in South Africa. Now, being arrested and charged, the
question that we should pose to ourselves is, how did he land
here in South Africa?
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People shouldn‘t be allowed to come to South Africa and commit
gruesome crimes as we have reputable perish leaders here in
South Africa; some of them are our mentors, brothers and sisters
that we respect and depend upon for spiritual guidance.
The preacher here arrived as a wolf in a sheep skin. Therefore,
the Border Management Authority Bill, when enacted will be able
to distinguish between the wolf and the sheep and in a township
language we say, ―Fong Kong Counterfeit people‖.
Presently, the manner in which the BMA is being run is very
fragmented. To rectify these challenges, the BMA will be a
solution. It will be managed as a single command and it will be
well co-ordinated. The BMA will perform the border law
enforcement function within the borderline and ports of entry
for accountability purpose.
South Africans, your security is more valuable than any silver
and gold. Citing monetary issues as my DA leader has said is not
an issue; an issue here is well co-ordinated borders. Proper co-
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ordination is a prerequisite, because some around here never see
any good in any problem.
Citing the issue of revenue being collected at the border is not
true, so the ANC support this Bill. I thank you.
Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, on the condition that revenue
collection remains with Treasury, there is logic in the proposed
establishment of a fully-fledged border management agency with
the purpose of integrating and co-ordinating the management of
securing the borders of the Republic and protecting national
interests. Every sovereign state has the inherent right,
obligation and responsibility to secure its borders, monitor and
police those who wish to enter, prevent the smuggling and
trafficking of human beings and goods, and ensure the protection
of its social and economic development.
Most would agree that our current border management structures,
systems and processes are messy, incoherent and dysfunctional.
However, Cope is hesitant to support this Bill and the
establishment of this mega-agency, given the maladministration
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in the corrupt and irrational presidency of Mr Zuma, the growing
and continued grand capture and corruption of organs and
agencies of our state, and the inability of this government to
develop and maintain capable and functional organs of state. I
would like to provide an example. In 2004, this House adopted
the South African Social Security Agency Act. The purpose of
this was to provide for the establishment of a South African
Social Security Agency, Sassa, as an agent for the
administration and payment of social assistance. We know that
Sassa had to outsource the primary reason for which it was
established – the paying of social grants. The Sassa was
essentially captured and abused by the executive. It has been
marred by gross corruption and ineptitude. According to the
discredited Minister Dlamini, it will take tens of millions of
rand and another five years to be in a position to do what it
was supposed to do.
Let us return to what is on the table. Like the South African
Social Security Agency Act, this Bill seeks to establish a meganational public entity, basically a parastatal that will operate
outside of the Public Service. The authority is also proposed to
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have broad powers vested in it, including border law enforcement
functions being established as an armed service responsible for
the facilitation and management of the legitimate movement of
persons and goods within the border law enforcement area and at
ports of entry. It will also be responsible for the facilitation
of the collection of revenue. Further, it is the President who
solely appoints the commissioner of the authority, and it is the
President who is empowered to remove and suspend the
commissioner and the deputy commissioner.
Under this corrupt ANC-led government and under the current
discredited, corrupted and irrational President who disregarded
national interests and who is a prime player in the capture of
our state and sovereignty of our nation, are we not empowering
further corruption, state capture on a grand scale, and setting
up another agency for abject failure? Under a different
government and President and under a new Parliament committed to
carrying out its duties and oversight, Cope will support the
Bill – but not as matters stand. Thank you.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Carter, before you leave the podium,
would you like to tell the House about the clarification you
received from the Table about your earlier comment?
Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, do you refer to the resetting of
buttons? Are you talking about the comment or question I raised
...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: About the Speaker.
Ms D CARTER: Well, according to the Table, it resets the
buttons, not the Speaker. [Interjections.] I still ... yes, I
tend to agree ... [Interjections.] ... but then it should not be
reset – the buttons should not be reset when it suits the Table.
It should be reset at the end of a question, and the record
should be made available to everyone. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Carter ... No, I just wanted hon Carter
to do the right thing. She chooses to add fire to the stack.
[Interjections.] Go ahead, hon member. Proceed, hon Dudley.
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Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, border management is exercised by
multiple organs of state, and so those promoting this Bill say
there is a need for integrated and co-ordinated border
management of our porous borders, especially in view of
instances of terror and trafficking emerging. Detractors, on the
other hand, accuse Home Affairs of having had a total disregard
for the consultative process by doing the complete opposite to
what everyone said. The Green Paper, a collation of hundreds of
expert submissions – they say – appears to have been largely set
aside in the official White Paper.
A former chief executive officer of a Cape Town migrant welfare
association has estimated that over R2,5 billion will be
required for infrastructure and operational detainment centres
over a seven-year period, resources that, of course, will place
significant additional strain on the country‘s budget. Because
processing of asylum claims is severely backlogged, with some
people waiting 14 years for a document that should by law take
180 days, those dealing with migrant welfare would prefer to see
the hiring more staff at Home Affairs to manage migration. They
are convinced that the hiring of capable staff to resolve
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backlogs and resolve complex issues would be a better deterrent
for illegal migrants and less costly than building detention
centres or buying guns for border guards.
The ACDP would like to have seen a greater emphasis in the Bill
on checks and balances to prevent corruption. We also note with
concern that the issue of customs and excise collection has been
cause for tension between Home Affairs and Treasury, with the
Finance Ministry wanting the function to remain under the
SA Revenue Service. The ACDP is not satisfied that
accountability, both from an operational and a financial
standpoint, has been properly considered, leaving the whole
concept vulnerable.
Whilst uncertainty regarding the legislation exists, the ACDP is
in favour of the Bill being sent back to the committee for these
concerns to be clarified and dealt with. The Border Management
Authority Bill is meant to ensure effective law enforcement at
ports of entry and on our borders, contributing to the
facilitation of trade and travel to prevent smuggling and
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trafficking of human beings and goods and to prevent illegal
cross-border movement.
The ACDP would like us to be sure, however, that adequate
legislation is in place if we are to embark on this very
expensive experiment in terms of border control. It is a global
concern, with no clear guidelines or indication that these
measures can or will be successful. We would like to be sure –
rather safe than sorry. Thank you.
Mr D M GUMEDE: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Members of Parliament,
firstly let me congratulate Prof Mkhize who has been appointed
as Minister of Home Affairs. [Applause.] The ANC welcomes you
hon Minister.
Furthermore, let me thank our government for demonstrating that
it listens to concerns of all its people, black and white, that
is that our borders are porous and they need better control and
more effective safeguarding. Here we are talking of a land
border of 4 471km which it shares with six neighbouring
countries, that is Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia,
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Lesotho and Swaziland. These land borders have to be controlled
and safeguarded in a variety of environments ranging from
mountainous terrains to semi-desert areas day and night, hour
after hour, rain or shine. Added to that is a coastline that is
approximately 3 924km bordering South Africa on three sides with
72 ports of entry. As South Africa we have 72 ports of entry.
Everyday our immigration officers, our police, our navy, our air
force, our army, our agricultural officers, our health
officials, our environmental officers and our intelligence,
among others, have to sweat to ensure that they facilitate a
legitimate flow of humans as well as goods in an efficient and
effective manner while at the same time mitigating against
illegal activities.
We know that together as one they can do more and better. That
is why our caring government — and the ANC government is caring
— is introducing this legal instrument as a radical shift in
order to, firstly, contribute to socioeconomic development;
secondly, effective and efficient border law enforcement under a
single command and control; thirdly, to facilitate legitimate
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trade and secure travel; fourthly, contribute to the prevention
of smuggling and trafficking of human beings and goods; fifthly,
prevent illegal cross-border movement of terrorists, drug
smugglers and human trafficking; sixthly, contribute to the
prevention of the Republic‘s environmental and natural
resources; and lastly, protect people of our country from
harmful and infectious diseases like Ebola and other terrible
diseases, as well as pests and substances.
In an increasingly globalising world, governments have to
increasingly maintain security while encouraging trade. Our
government needs to strike a balance between adhering to its
security obligations and facilitation of trade ... and presently
employs 9 000 state officials from at least five organs of state
that are working at the 72 ports of entry with different
conditions of service, competing priorities, dissimilar tools of
trade and equipment, often not sharing information and without a
single command. That is clearly not efficient. It is not
effective and therefore needs improvement.
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The government‘s response to that is the Border Management
Authority, BMA, which is an integrated model that will be
efficient, economical and effective. The BMA will be
intelligence driven and risk based in its integrated approach.
Some concerns, which I think were genuine concerns, have been
raised about customs and excise. This involves about one per
cent of customs of an estimated R300 billion; that is one per
cent of customs. We are satisfied that this matter has been
discussed and handled, and as a result we have a memorandum of
understanding between the Department of Home Affairs and the
Minister of Finance. However, let me assure you there is no
customs and excise money that will be handled by the BMA. All
the customs and excise revenue will be handled by the SA Revenue
Service, Sars, because it has the resources and capacity to do
that competently. Let me repeat that it will be handled by Sars
because it has the necessary capacity and resources to do that
job competently. So why are you afraid that it is going to be
handled by the BMA when we didn‘t even attempt to put in place
resources and capacities that would be necessary for that? So,
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fears that customs and excise will be handled by the BMA are
misleading and untrue.
IsiZulu:
Akulona iqiniso ukuthi kuzoba khona imali ezophathwa abantu
abasemngceleni. Imali yonke izophathwa ngabantu abekade bevele
beyiphatha, abantu abaqondene nentela ngoba yibona abakwaziyo
ukuyiphatha. Sesibonile iminyaka ngeminyaka beyiphatha ngendlela
efanele nangendlela enemphumelelo.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gumede, take your seat. Yes hon member,
what are you rising on?
IsiZulu:
Nk H O HLOPHE: Ngicabanga ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile esihlala
nalo ekomidini likhulume iphutha, liyazi ukuthi Isigatshana
[Clause] 5 walo Mthethosivivinyo [of this Bill] awusho njalo.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that‘s not a point of order. Go
ahead hon member.
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IsiZulu:
Mnu D M GUMEDE: Kusho ukuthi kungamanga aluhlaza ukuthi
kuzobakhona imali ezohamba iphathwe yi-BMA. Imali izophathwa
abantu abavele bekade beyiphatha.
English:
Ms H O HLOPHE: Deputy Speaker, order. It‘s unparliamentary to
say amanga [lies] in this Parliament. Please rule on that.
[Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
ISEKELA SOMLOMO: Akekho umuntu okushilo lokho? Mhlonishwa
uGumede [Hon Gumede], utheni baba?
Mnu D M GUMEDE: Ngithe ukusho ukuthi imali izophathwa yi-BMA
kungamanga aluhlaza. Akekho umuntu engithe unamanga.
English:
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, it‘s a saying. It‘s not
unparliamentary. Unless he specifically said any one person said
so, that would be unparliamentary. Proceed hon member.
Mr D M GUMEDE: Other members of the committee raised the issue
of allowing every person from Africa into South Africa without a
passport. What we know is that that is not the mandate of the
ANC government. It is not in line with our Constitution and it
is not in line with our laws. That is why the ANC rejected that.
IsiZulu:
Okusho ukuthi kukhona abekade bethi abantu abangene baphume
eNingizimu Afrika ngokuthanda yize bengenazo izincwadi. Sase
sithi thina asilinikezwanga abantu abasivotela igunya lokuthi
sivumele noma ubani ukuthi angene eNingizimu Afrika aphume
ngokuthanda kwakhe kunendlela ekwavunyelwana ngayo
ngokoMthethosisekelo nangokomthetho.
English:
We know that South Africa is a sovereign state. We know that our
neighbours are sovereign states and we are happy with that.
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Matters of African travel cross-border travel ... Let me repeat.
Matters of African cross-border travel are discussed at the AU
and we believe that it is the appropriate structure for such
discussions.
The BMA is an innovation. It is progress and surely will promote
a better life for all. If perhaps there are any concerns, which
I believe are not there, then they can be handled through the
process of the NCOP. The ANC supports this Bill.
IsiZulu:
Uma kukhona abasenesikhalo sebe ngakufaka laphayana ...
[Kwaphela isikhathi] Ngiyabonga.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon members and Deputy Speaker,
firstly I would like to thank all the members who participated.
I just want to emphasize one or two things and to assure members
that most members who debated based on the original, having not
looked at the amended Bill, seem to still confuse issues that
have already been addressed. I think in all the discussions
within the amended Bill it is clear that with regard to the
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proposed BMA there is no way that it can confuse functions of
different departments. For instance, the police will remain
responsible for the functions of the police as in their Act. The
same applies to Defence and the same applies to Sars.
As the ANC has clarified, the amended Bill is very clear that
the BMA will not collect revenue and even the one per cent that
will be paid at the ports of entry will be deposited into the
Sars bank account or directly into the National Revenue Fund.
All that I can say is that this is critical for the country. We
are on an unprecedented growth path, not only here. The issue of
international migration cannot be postponed forever. If we want
to remain committed to our national identity security, it is
important to take the protection of our borders seriously.
With regard to the budget, the thinking that has developed
through consultation is that functions will be transferred under
the commissioner and that is estimated at 3,8 billion. It is
estimated that over a 10-year-period the BMA will need an
additional six billion.
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As a section 75 Bill it will also need to be submitted to the
National Council of Provinces for their consideration before it
is returned. I therefore thank the committee on Home Affairs for
diligently discharging its constitutional mandate. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, it‘s like you are prolonging the
time for ... [Interjections.] ... too long. It can‘t be five
minutes. We are now far beyond 10 minutes. Can you please close
the doors?
(VOTING: TAKE IN FROM MINUTES)
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the results are as follows.
There are no abstentions. There are seven noes and there are 189
... and we needed a quorum of 201. We don‘t have it. Hon
members, before you do anything else, according to Rule 115 it
states that:
Every member present in the Chamber when the question is
put with the doors barred must vote or record an
abstention; provided that in terms of section 53(2) of the
Constitution the presiding officer has no deliberative
vote, but —
(a) must cast a deciding vote when there is an equal number
of votes on each side of a question; and
(b) may cast a deliberative vote when a question ...
and so on. I‘m reading this so that every one of you ... I hope
you have voted. If you haven‘t then there is a violation of the
rule present here. I just wanted to make that point.
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However, otherwise ... So we can‘t read the Bill a second time
because we don‘t have a quorum. We will proceed to the next
item.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We are happy that it has been rejected because
you don‘t think ... [Inaudible.] ... before you do things.
As the result of the division showed that there was not a
majority of the members of the National Assembly present for a
vote to be taken on a Bill as required by Rule 96(a), decision
of question postponed.
CRIMINAL PROCEDURE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee on Justice and
Correctional Services)
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move that the Report be
adopted.
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Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND
CORRECTIONAL SERVICES - CRIMINAL AMENDMENT BILL
Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, sir.
Mr N SINGH: Just on a point of order. I just like clarity. Is it
a debate or declarations? We were informed that it is going to
be declarations. Debate would have a speakers list and we don‘t
have a speakers list. So, it‘s declarations.
Ms M C C PILANE- MAJAKE: Hon Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let‘s do this, hon Singh, the
procedure is that the report is introduced. If you wish to
declare, you will request and we will grant you that. When you,
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after she has introduced the report, you will request if you so
wish to make a declaration.
Ms M C C PILANE- MAJAKE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I will be
introducing the Bill on behalf of the Chairperson of the
Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services, hon
Mathole Motshekga. My name is Chana Pilane-Majake. The Bill
seeks to amend section 77, 78 and 79 of the Criminal Procedure
Act 51, 1977. The Bill emanates amongst others, from the
judgement of the Constitutional Court in the De Vos and others
versus Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development and
others also known as De Vos judgement.
The Bill also seeks to clarify the composition of panels
provided for in section 79 of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977
following the Western Cape High Court judgement of S versus
Petro. In the De Vos case, the Constitutional Court declared
77(6)(a)(i)(ii) of the Criminal Procedure Act 51, 1977 to be
inconsistent with the Constitution and invalid to the extent
that it provides for the compulsory imprisonment of an adult
accused person and compulsory hospitalisation or imprisonment of
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children. In the case of section 77(6)(i) of the Criminal
Procedure Act, 1977, the court suspended the declaration of
invalidity for a period of 24 months to allow Parliament to
correct the defects in the light of the judgement which was
delivered on June 2015, therefore, making the deadline for
corrections to be 25 June 2017.
Regarding section 77(6)(a) to the Constitutional Court provided
for a read in provision, the Bill therefore, largely seeks to
ensure that the Constitutional Court judgement is complied with
by amending the applicable provisions of the Criminal Procedure
Act 51, 1977 to remedy the current position of constitutional
invalidity. The proposed amendments therefore seek to provide
the courts with a wider range of options in respect of orders to
be issued where the court finds that an accused person is not
able to understand the proceedings so as to make a proper
defence by reason of mental illness or intellectual disability
or is found to be not criminally responsible for the act by
reason of mentally illness or intellectual ability.
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The purpose of the Bill is therefore to amend the Criminal
Procedure Act 51, 1977 so as to provide the court with a wide
range of options in respect of orders to be issued in cases of
findings that the accused persons are not capable of
understanding criminal proceedings so as to make proper defence
or that accused persons are by reason of mental illness or
mental defect or for any other reason not criminally responsible
for the offences they are charged with, to clarify the
composition of the panel provided for in section 79, to conduct
enquiries into the mental conditions of the accused persons and
to provide for matters connected therewith. Therefore, the Bill
provides for a provision that deals with unconstitutionality of
arbitrary incarceration of accused persons and further also
provides for discretion on the part of the judiciary in matters
of this nature.
The debate in the committee were concerned about the human
element of discretionary powers conferred to the judiciary, but
the committee was also conscious that it is imperative to comply
with the order of the court to continue to endorse
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constitutional democracy of South Africa or constitutional
democracy South Africa is enjoying.
Nothing in the committee was actually said about the Bill and
its relevance whether there is corruption or whether there is
capture in South Africa. I am actually saying this in the sense
that whenever we actually enter into debates, to some extent
then we start deviating instead of talking about the Bill then
we keep on misleading South Africans by always bringing into the
fore issues that are not important like what I have just
mentioned about frankly talking about corruption, talking about
capture when in actual facts here what we are actually doing is
just to come up with a provision that actually allows us to be
in the position to treat accused persons in a humane manner
regardless of their mental ability. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]
Declarations of vote:
Mr W HORN: Deputy Speaker, we are rising in support of this
report and the Amendment Bill. However, the manner in which this
Bill was handled by the Minister and his department must be
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questioned. As it has become a norm now where the Constitutional
Court holds parts of legislation to be unconstitutional and
affords Parliament the opportunity to amend this legislation
within certain period, in this instance, 24 months. Such
Amendment Bills typically is tabled less than six months before
the cut off date. This not only exposes Parliament to be in
contempt of court, but ultimately will always read to a
situation, like in this instance, that while the Bill meets the
very essentials of the Constitutional Court order any chance of
producing the best possible legislation is lost.
To add insult to injury, the processing of this Bill aimed at
fixing unconstitutional legislation now routinely are made by
monotonous eliminations by ANC members about what they believe
to be audacity of the judiciary to question Parliament and the
executive. One must assume that the ANC members on the portfolio
committee are obviously in support of the call by one, supra
Zuma, the Secretary of the ANC in KwaZulu-Natal, who called for
a day of mass action against what he calls frivolous judicial
average.
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Whenever Bills aimed at fixing unconstitutional legislation
serves before the portfolio committee, an atmosphere thick with
the smell of disdain for constitutional supremacy prevails and
calls for the return of parliamentary supremacy. Yes, that
system that enabled and prompts up apartheid is often made by
ANC committee members. It is clear South Africans who support
our Constitution can no longer support the ANC. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, the UDM does support the
report and the Bill. But let‘s look at the root causes of this
situation that has arisen. The Zuma administration provides only
4% of the national fiscus for mentally ill persons. As a result
of this, these class of citizens suffered unnecessarily and that
calls for the need to amend the law. Government needs to show
more concern about their plight, which in all probability is not
self-inflicted. For typical intern crimes like murder and fraud,
a large number of such influences may go free if the clerks
indicate that they lack intellectual ability as opposed to
mental illness.
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Poverty levels in our country are so high that it is a luxury
for some of the people to even begin to talk about brain
performance enhancing nutrition. We are talking about millions
of people here. As a result, these people‘s brains operate below
par, but they are not ill. We therefore, can understand that the
current government seeks to offer judicial protection to those
persons by removing the term, ‗mental defects‘ and replacing it
with intellectual disability. Such persons are a direct product
of poverty that is ravaging the poor and the unemployed.
Question is whether such people can be criminal responsible in
the technical sense of the world. Consequently, we now have to
bring the concept of balance of probabilities when dealing with
typical criminal cases not just civil matters.
The economic cluster has failed together with the social cluster
of government to make sure that people enjoy nutrition enriched
diet, which will enable the minds of the consumers of that food
to be able to reason properly. Consequently, they fall into this
unfortunate class. The end result of all the above-mentioned
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factors is that this department has to dispense social justice
as opposed to criminal justice.
Although the proposed amendments look at technical issues only,
yet they have great impacts on the social issues of the people.
So, we support the amendments if only they will protect the
socially disadvantage citizens of our country. However, cautions
need to be made that we need not as this House have to wait
until it is the juries that tell us that we should amend the
law. Why was this law allowed to go the way it is when there is
400 Members of Parliament, MPs, here? Is it favouritism again?
Now, let us not blame the judiciary when it keeps on correcting
us. They have done a good job. That‘s why we support the Bill
because we are for the social good of the people. Thank you,
Chair [Applause.]
Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker and the Deputy President of the
EFF, commissar, Floyd Shivambu, the Bill before the House is as
a result of Constitutional Court judgement, which found that
section 77 of the Criminal Procedure Act is inconsistent and
invalid when it deals with imprisonment of adults and children,
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particularly, the court found that section 77 applies
particularly harshly in respect of children.
A judgement was made in 2015 that Parliament was given 24 months
from the date of the judgement to finalise this Bill to avoid
Parliament being in contempt of court. The Bill seeks to amend a
Criminal Procedure Act in cases of finding that accused persons
who are mentally ill, mentally defect of any other reason not to
be criminally responsible for offences they are charged with, an
administrative matter related to appointment of a panel to
conduct enquiries into the mental conditions of accused persons.
The EFF agrees with this amendment because this is a directive
from the Constitutional Court. Whilst the EFF support the Bill,
it is important to reflect on the conduct of government, who
continue to neglect people with mental illness. The majority of
people with mental illnesses end up in criminal justice system
because society and the ANC government in particular have
abandoned them. Most mentally ill persons do not have access to
medical services. Most of them do not have access to proper care
and guidance, particularly the majority of our people.
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We have allowed the new liberal government with its inhumane
policies to commercialise the taking care of people with mental
illness.
In Gauteng province, it is a well-known fact that the ANC
government killed at least 100 mental ill patients - death which
could have been prevented. But we know that the ANC government
killed our people. It does not matter how vulnerable our people
are, the ANC doesn‘t care. It continues to kill them. The ANC
government has failed to provide them with soft skills for them
to be functional members of society and contribute positively.
Mentally ill people continued to be victims of most violent
crimes, particularly women and children. Mentally ill people
must not end up in criminal justice system. When it happens, it
must be a carrying nation and should also do our outmost best to
ensure that our criminal justice system is humane and act
sincerely, especially when an offender cannot appreciate the
wrongfulness of his or her actions. It is for this reason that
the EFF support the Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill. We want
to call upon all our people to look after our people with mental
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illnesses. We must protect them, integrate them into society and
not discriminate against them. We must love them and in doing
that ... [Time expired.] ... we will prevent the ending up of
these people in criminal justice system. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, as we have heard the amendments
that we are considering today are as a direct result the
injunction of the Constitutional Court. Halala Constitutional
Court halala! [Interjections.] I know that the Rules prevent us
as Members of Parliament or Parliament from influencing
decisions of the Constitutional Court, but we hope that on
Monday, they would rule in favour of strengthening democracy in
our country.
Hon Deputy Speaker, it has long been the accepted practice that
individuals declared to be of unsound mental disposition may in
certain circumstances be detained involuntarily. The
justification for such detention has been considered necessary
not only for the treatment of the individual, but also for the
protection of society at large.
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The problem that we currently have and the one that this Bill
seeks to rectify is the fact that there are varying degrees of
mental illnesses and that it can never be a one-case-fits-all
approach in respect of classifying the degree of mental illness
or the danger posed to society by a person declared to be of
mental unsound mind. Up and until this legislative Amendment
Bill and in particular in respect of section 77(6) of the
Criminal Procedure Act, it was never required or even permitted
for a court to enquire into the potential threat or danger to
society posed by a mentally ill accused as to what kind of
treatment or hospitalisation would be necessary.
Expect medical witnesses were not permitted to express any
medical view as to the potential threat the accused posed either
to society or to themselves or the kind of treatment that should
be undertaken.
Hon Deputy Speaker, it is clear that section 76(a)(i)(ii),
because of the mandatory and predetermination not only deprived
the presiding judicial officer of all judicial discretion in
cases such as this, but also deprive the accused of the right to
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a fair and individualise justice. This not only compromises the
administration of justice, but also severely impinges upon the
constitutional rights of the accused to a fair trial.
In respect of a minor accused, there is currently a clear
infringement of constitutional right 28(1)(g), read together
with the overarching provision of 28(2), which unequivocally
states that and I quote: ―A child‘s best interests are of
paramount importance in all matters concerning the child‖.
Therefore, Deputy Speaker, in full accord with the reasoning and
judgement handed down by Grisly J, in our nation‘s apex court in
this matter; the IFP supports this Criminal Procedure Amendment
Bill. I thank you.
Declarations of vote (contd).
Mr S C MNCWABE: Deputy Speaker, hon members of the House, to all
our mothers in the House, including my own leader: Happy Mothers
Day in advance. [Applause.] The NFP welcomes the amendment
contained in the report of the portfolio committee. As it had
been noted, the amendments contained in this report are
necessary in terms of the ruling of the Constitutional Court in
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2015, in a case of De Vos N.O. and Others v Minister of Justice
and Constitutional Development and Others [2015] ZACC 21, the
NFP beliefs that the amendment to the Criminal Procedure
Amendment Bill contained in the report must not be read in
isolation but in conjunction with existing amendments contained
in the Bill.
The net effect of these amendments is to soften the often harsh
face of our criminal procedure and safeguard the basic
fundamental human rights to dignity and liberty. It is patently
clear that it is unjust to deprive a person who is
intellectually unsound and incapable of understanding our
criminal procedure of their liberty under penile conditions.
The issue is not about the deprivation of personal liberty,
which is often necessary to protect people from harm, but the
penile conditions under which such deprivation of liberty takes
place is an issue. We believe that the amendments proposed here
today satisfy the requirements of the Constitutional Court and
also satisfy the need to balance the interest of the individual
with the interest of the society.
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Furthermore, we are of the opinion that the amendments give full
effect to the values contained in our Bill of Rights.
Accordingly, the NFP supports the recommendations in the report.
I thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP supports this Bill. We know
it is a fundamental principle of our criminal justice system
that an accused must be able to understand the court proceedings
as well as give proper instructions to his/her legal
representatives in order to conduct a proper defence.
The impugned provisions did not allow presiding officers the
necessary discretion to look into the mental illness or
intellectual disability of the accused persons. This is found to
be unconstitutional and resulted in a reading-in provision by
the Constitutional Court.
The reading-in provision is interesting because obviously, we as
Parliament can say: But, that is our job. We pass laws. Why are
you as the judiciary changing the law and giving us Parliament
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24 months to later change it. So, it is interesting what the
Constitutional Court judge said. He said:
I heed the caution made in an earlier decision that where
there are a number of options available to cure a
constitutional defect, the courts should defer to the
legislature.
But, he said in this case, a reading-in accords with the
purposes of the legislation, and we agree with that. The
challenge is of course the principles that were set out in an
earlier judgement are that a range of possibilities exist where
a court is able to afford interim relief to affected persons.
That is what the court did. They awarded interim relief by
reading-in provisions.
The challenge is the delay from when a court order is given to
when we sit as Parliament. We are now as the Justice committee
under massive pressure to finalise this Bill and somewhere we
need to find a mechanism that when a court brings out an order
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against or finding legislation unconstitutional, Parliament and
the executive should be alerted to that.
It was almost 18 months before this was tabled before the
committee. I don‘t know what the reason for the delay was, but
we from the ACDP have raised this with the Office of the Chief
Justice that surely we as Parliament or the Office of the Chief
Justice alert Parliament when a Bill is found unconstitutional.
Remember, the order is against the Minister, but Parliament has
to rectify the defect. So, that is a concern of ours: The delay
that is taken place; and often we find the departments then have
to approach the Constitutional Court for an extension of that
clause. Surely, we can do this quicker to make sure that there
is enough time.
Take note that this cut-off date is next month and this process
still has to go through the NCOP. So, from the ACDP side, we
accept the amendment, we support it and we thank the court for
looking into this issue. However, we believe that we can
expedite the process in the future. Thank you very much.
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Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Minister,
hon members, section 2 of the Constitution of the Republic of
South Africa says that the Constitution is the supreme law of
the Republic. Any law or conduct that is inconsistent with the
Constitution itself is invalid. This Bill arises out of an Act
which was passed in 1977. It is Act 51 of 1977.
When I stood here last time to debate, we had committed that as
the ANC we will change all older legislations that are not
consistent with the Constitution. We are today standing here to
fulfil exactly what we had promised the people of this country
around changing all old order legislations. The Bill before us
seeks to amend sections 77, 78 and 79 of the Criminal Procedure
Act 51 of 1977.
It gives effect to three very import things. One such is the
arbitrary incarceration of mentally ill offenders in terms of
section 77(6)(a)(i) and (ii). Then section 79 deals with the
panel of assessors that must assess mentally ill people at
large. Secondly, the Bill deals with giving discretion giving a
wider range of options to judicial officers, magistrates and
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judges in terms of accessing the mental illness of a particular
offender that is before the magistrate or a judge. It arises out
of a popular judgement which is called De Vos judgement, where
the court declared that certain sections were just
unconstitutional.
I need to correct hon Mathys in saying that the ANC has killed
people at Esidimeni Centre. It is not true that the ANC has
killed people at Esidimeni. As the ANC, we view that matter as
an unfortunate incident. We, in the ANC, support this Bill and
we understand the role of the judiciary, the executive and
legislatures very clearly. We are not confused about all this
roles. We support this Bill hon Deputy Speaker. Thank you very
much.
Question put (that the Bill be read the second time).
No objections.
Agreed to.
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Bill read a second time.
Debate Concluded.
The House adjourned at 17: 41