Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 08 Mar 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:00
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The SPEAKER: The first item on the Order Paper is questions
addressed to ministers in the governance cluster. Members may
press the top button on their desks if they wish to ask the
supplementary question.
The first question has been asked by the hon Lesoma to the
Minister of Public Service and Administration. Where is the
Minister? I have been informed that the Deputy Minster will be
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answering the questions on behalf of the Minister, who actually
has bereavement.
Question 3:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Speaker, Minister Ngoako Ramatlhodi has lost his brother and
that is the reason why he is not here today.
I will attempt to give response to the question that was asked,
whether the department has developed a monitoring instrument to
assess: the implementation of; and compliance with the Protected
Disclosures Act.
The one thing that we need to remember is that we are not the
custodians of the Act, but there are systems that we have put in
place to ensure that we are able to live by the expectations and
the aspirations of the Act itself, in the sense that we have
built principles of the code of conduct around what is enshrined
in the piece of legislation.
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Basically, we are not vested with the authority to oversee the
implementation of the Act itself. The powers to oversee the
implementation of the piece of legislation are vested with the
Minister responsible for the administration of justice.
The ambit of application of this act goes beyond the functions
and powers of the Minister of Public Service and Administration
and as I have said earlier on, the principles on the code of
conduct have taken into cognisance what is enshrined in this
piece of legislation. Thank you.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Deputy Minister, thanks for you response,
however, I would like to know if there are any watertight
protection for the whistle-blowers?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: With
regard to protection for whistle-blowers, we do have systems in
place. When people come and they report through various hotlines
but even in the sense where they give us letters and they become
anonymous people, we don’t dig to find out who those individual
are. So, in a sense those anonymous people are protected.
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In events where people are known, again the department strives
to ensure that departments and the department itself don’t
overreact in the sense of exposing those that are whistleblowers, but ensure that through the proper channels within the
justice system, protection is given to whistle-blowers in the
public service. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, allow me to start on behalf of
the NFP to extend our condolences to the Minister on the loss of
his brother.
Given the fact that there are various loopholes in the system
and quite often the whistle-blowers become victims as a result
of leakages. Could you please tell us, how you would protect
these whistle-blowers to ensure that including the witness
programme that we have sometimes it is very limited to a certain
period of time and thereafter they are put at great risk? What
measures can be put in place to try and protect these whistleblowers?
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon
member, you must understand that being in the witness protection
programme is one of the most difficult things that you might
find yourself in as a person. It is an uncomfortable position
that you would find yourself in. Sometimes people get out of
that programme, because it is just so much more difficult that
you get stiff wind from your support system, from your family,
from friends and sometimes you are put out of work for a long
time, so it is a difficult system.
But the management of that system and the management of the Act
itself doesn’t reside within the Department of Public Service
and Administration neither is it catered for in the Public
Service Act, but as I said to you, when we developed the code of
conduct, we did take into account what is enshrined in that
piece of legislation.
But when there are whistle-blowers within departments, we always
encourage and give support to those whistle-blowers through
various means including the employer’s system programme. Thank
you.
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Ms D VAN DER WALT: Speaker, in 2013, two employees, one in the
Northern Cape’s Department of Roads and Public Works was
suspended after he blew the whistle on corrupt tender practices.
The other one was an employee of the MEC of Finance in KZN, who
was dismissed after she blew the whistle on maladministration,
corruption, and conflict of interest.
These are merely two well publicised examples of countless
failures by public entities to uphold the spirit of the
Protected Disclosure Act, notwithstanding the current amendment
bill in respect of the Act and in light of their parent
vulnerability of whistle-blowers. My question is: when do you
intend to bring further amendments to the Act that will
guarantee an enormity for whistle-blowers and when will
politicians and employees who fire whistle-blowers face the full
might of the law?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon
member, I think those questions should be asked the Department
of Justice, where we can work with the Department of Justice as
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a department in assisting to ensure that whistle-blowers are
protected that, we will do.
As I said earlier on, the Act lies within the Department of
Justice and its implementation lies there, but as a department
we have put measures in place to ensure that through the code of
conduct, but also through the employees assistance programme,
EAP, we do have mechanisms to ensure that people are catered
for.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy Minister, whilst appreciating of course
the things you said about where it resides and so on, but in the
main we rely on public service to be the one that carries a bulk
of this work which the Act provides for. The question I have for
you is that, in your assessment, how can we best improve the
workings of this Act and whether the interventions that are in
place are actually effective and efficient? Do you believe that
there are necessary amendments that need to be made in order to
give better space to public so that they are an active
participant of the implementation of this Act?
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION:
Hon member, I think for every piece of legislation including its
regulations, at some point or the other, you do find that
improvements could be made. I think from our side as a
department, as I have said, our concentration has largely been
around the development of the code of conduct which also speaks
to what is enshrined in the Act itself.
Much more than that could still be done and I really don’t have
ample information to share with you even including the cases
that you have just mentioned, hon van der Walt, even with regard
to that particular cases, that’s the type of information that I
don’t have, but as I say there are improvements that can be made
or many things that could be added to ensure that people
actually are given that protection. But as we speak right now,
our concentration has been around the code of conduct and the
EAP, including the grievance mechanisms that are in place. Thank
you.
Question 19:
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Speaker, yes, indeed, hon Bara, we do hold municipalities that
owe Eskom accountable. But we are not just holding them
accountable; we are also working with them. We are working with
them because national and provincial governments are obligated
by section 154 of the Constitution to support and strengthen the
capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, to
exercise their own powers and to perform their own functions.
As part of holding municipalities accountable and supporting
them, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs, as part of the interministerial task team on Eskom
debt, has been in discussions with the premiers and MECs of
various provinces as well as executive mayors of affected
municipalities regarding this problem.
The department has engaged with various stakeholders towards
resolving some of the structural challenges that are impeding
the resolution of the outstanding debt challenge.
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I must indicate that we have, inter alia, picked up some of the
following structural challenges. Eskom is currently charging
prime plus 5% interest on arrear debt, which results in an
increase in capital debt. After various ministerial engagements
with Eskom, they have made a proposal to reduce the current
interest rate to prime plus ...
There are other structural challenges that have been picked up,
ranging from the Eskom credit control circle vis-à-vis the
municipal provision of managing their credit by the Municipal
Finance Management Act, to many others. But I must indicate that
we are working together with the provinces under the leadership
of the interministerial task team, led by the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs. We will of course
continue to monitor the situation and assist municipalities
where we can. Thank you.
Mr M R BARA: Madam Speaker, firstly, my surname is pronounced
―Baga‖ not ―Bara‖.
The SPEAKER: Aah, ―Baga‖!
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Mr M R BARA: Yes.
The SPEAKER: Okay.
Mr M R BARA: Thank you, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: My apologies for the mispronunciation!
Mr M R BARA: Apology accepted. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Minister, given the fact that these problems arise primarily
from maladministration of the municipalities and the misuse of
municipal finances, have any municipal officials or public
representatives been through a disciplinary process in terms of
section 171 and section 32 of the Municipal Finance Management
Act? If so, how many? If not, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you once more for the follow-up question, hon Bara. My
sincere apology, too.
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Indeed, where areas of mismanagement are picked up, appropriate
actions are taken.
Mr I M OLLIS: Like what?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
I must indicate ... like the Western Cape recently. You will
remember the scandal in the City of Cape Town, which was
acknowledged by Mayor Patricia de Lille, where 28 million
alleged corruption scandals rocked the city council. So such
incidents ... we continue to pick them up as we monitor the
performance of municipalities.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what is your point?
Mr M M DLAMINI: There’s a councilor here, Peace Mabe ... We
don’t know how she got here. [Interjections.]
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The SPEAKER: No, hon member, that is not a point of order.
[Interjections.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: She has no ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.] So
we don’t know how the councilors are allowed to come in here.
The SPEAKER: No, that’s not a point of order! Please take your
seat! [Interjections.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: So you allow councilors to come in here as well?
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, please take your seat! [Interjections.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: We’ve got 800 councilors. We can bring them in!
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: She’s a councilor! [Interjections.]
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Mr Z R XALISA: Minister, how much involvement has your
department had with resolving the matter between municipalities
and Eskom? We ask this because it has come to our attention that
some municipalities such as Msukaligwa and Emalahleni local
municipalities in Mpumalanga came to a problematic agreement
with Eskom, which means that they will have to sell some of
their land to raise the money to repay Eskom. Will you also
agree with such proposals?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon member, indeed, at the centre of this problem is the
financial status of most municipalities. As a result, some of
the municipalities ... out of our own assessment, we have picked
up that they get into repayment arrangements that are not
sustainable.
I spent almost two days last week, together with the Premier of
Mpumalanga, David Mabusa ... [Interjections.] ... trying to
assist the affected municipalities, Emalahleni and Msukaligwa.
Indeed, I mean, we have picked up that there are some provisions
in their current repayment arrangements that we think are not
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sustainable. At the centre of this problem, as we move along
with these municipalities, we must address the question of
financial viability of these municipalities. Indeed, some of
these arrangements are not financially viable. As a result, we
have realised that, for them to address some of the technical
problems like replacement of conventional meters with smart
meters ... most of these municipalities do not have the required
capital layout. So as a result, we are partnering, working
together with the Department of Public Enterprises, of course,
under ... of course ...
The Department of Public Enterprises takes care of the operation
of Eskom. So we are working together with Eskom, guided by the
Department of Public Enterprises, to assist such municipalities.
Mr Z R XALISA: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
Mr Z R XALISA: I think the Minister did not answer my question.
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The SPEAKER: No, that is not a point of order. [Interjections.]
You are not satisfied with his answer, but he has answered you.
Mr Z R XALISA: But he has not answered by question, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker! Speaker!
The SPEAKER: What is your point, hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, the Rules that guide the process of
answering questions demand that the Ministers must respond to
the questions asked.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The gentleman who answered the question was
just waffling. There was a question about selling of the land in
order to pay Eskom debt, and that is what we want that Minister
to respond to ...
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The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... not to waffle on about him spending two
days in Mpumalanga. We want to know what exactly is happening
now, whether it is permissible for municipalities to ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Khubisa, can you please ask your follow-up
question.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, it is quite true
that, within the narrative of the municipalities failing to pay
without exonerating these officials and office bearers, there is
this issue of them needing to be empowered with regard to
revenue collection. That has to do with financial stability and
sustainability.
My question is, hon Minister, what programmes do you have with
regard to other forms of energy, renewable energy and also
biofuel which might help municipalities to deal with this
problem? Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Yes, indeed, I must indicate that we have, inter alia, picked up
that part of the financial management problems faced by
municipalities is an issue of skills that we are jointly
addressing with National Treasury.
But also, remember the issue of integrated power production is
provided for by the Department of Energy. Municipalities working
through the Department of Energy ... where there is a
possibility of coming up with independent power producers, IPPs,
they are also accommodated.
But truly speaking, as you are aware, that has drawn much heated
debate among some of the role-players in the sector. But that is
something that municipalities are encouraged to do. Some
municipalities are doing projects focusing on converting waste
into energy. So there are municipalities that are currently
undertaking such projects to reinforce the supply of energy to
their respective households. Thank you.
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Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Minister, I put it to you that you caught
up between a rock and a hard place. The reason I say so is
because, while municipalities are expected to service their debt
with Eskom, provincial governments and national government owe
municipalities over R6 billion. How then do they expect you,
coming from national, to go and tell them to service their debt
with Eskom in that situation?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you, hon member. Yes, indeed, we acknowledge that
particular problem. As a result, today we have a team led by the
Minister of Public Work, Minister Nxesi. That team is working
around the clock to assist us to deal with the debt of
government departments owing municipalities.
But I must indicate that one of the biggest problems that we
have picked up in that process is verification of some of this
money that is alleged to be owed by government departments.
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But we are making progress in as far as that particular problem
is concerned. It is part of the package as we intervene in those
affected municipalities. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Singh.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I just like to know if there were four
follow up questions on the last one.
The SPEAKER: They were.
Mr N SINGH: I thought it was the DA.
The SPEAKER: You had the DA, who is the original questioner, the
EFF, the NFP and the UDM.
Mr N SINGH: Okay, thank you.
Question 25:
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, just the first point,
that the issue of youth development and the National Youth
Development Agency, NYDA, is delegated to the Deputy Minister,
Manamela, who is not present here today because he is on his
study leave.
The answer to the question is that the appointment to the NYDA
board is regulated by section 9 of the NYDA, which states that
members must be appointed in a manner ensuring participation by
youth in the nomination process, transparency and openness; that
a shortlist of candidates for appointment is published and
reflect the demographics and geographical spread of the
Republic.
Since this process is largely controlled by Parliament, with the
ad hoc committee that run the process until it was approved by
this Parliament in February, I have no reason to doubt on the
process that has been prescribed by the Act. Thank you.
Mr T RAWULA: Minister, the main problem here is that NYDA is
meant to serve all young people of this country. It has been
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reduced into a political football for narrow political interests
of the ANC and its leagues. Is it okay for the majority of the
proposed members of the board to becoming from the youth league
only, if not, what are you doing to ensure that the NYDA belongs
to all South African youth and therefore represent all sectors
of our youth in this country? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: It is inaccurate to say that all
members represent the youth league. I have a list here of
members. There is also a member from the IFP Youth Brigade, who
is a member of this board. If you look at the geographic spread,
almost all the provinces are represented with the exception of
Eastern Cape. But the majority of the people there are spread
over eight provinces. So, the allegation that is only youth
league is not borne by the evidence that is here and this
Parliament, in February, overwhelmingly approved the appointment
of these seven board members to recommend to the President.
[Applause.]
Mr S C MOTAU: Speaker! [Interjections.]
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Mr M M DLAMINI: Hon Speaker! On a point of order! Who’s that?
Don’t do that. Speaker, we checked the list there and the Deputy
President is the one who is supposed to speak now. We checked
with that comrade, that one sitting down there.
The SPEAKER: The EFF had the original question, asked the follow
up question and I will now move to the next party.
Mr M M DLAMINI: So, the Deputy President will come upfront.
The SPEAKER: We don’t take two members from the same party.
[Interjections.] Hon Motau, please proceed. [Interjections.] No,
we don’t do it from the, Chair.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, there is no such a Rule that says
that.
The SPEAKER: We have a Rule.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Which Rule provides for what you have just said
now?
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The SPEAKER: We, presiding officers don’t take two MPs from the
same party
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But there is such a Rule. You are doing an
illegal thing. It’s an illegal ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Please, hon Shivambu, take your seat and let hon
Motau ask his supplementary question.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: What you are doing is illegal.
Mr S C MOTAU: Hon Minister, as you are probably aware, the DA
did not support the list of the people put forward for the board
because we believe that the whole process was not as it should
have been. We actually slummed it as a complete fuss because the
way it was done was that essentially each of the members of the
ad hoc committee had to pick up one person that they would want
to be shortlisted without interrogating these people. We believe
that it was absolutely not a fair process and not as transparent
as you say it should be in terms of the law and we believe that
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that 421 people who were not called up were prejudice. Would you
agree that this process was not fair? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Yes, according to the report
that Parliament adopted here in this House, I have no reason to
believe that the process was not fair because: firstly, on 2
November, this House re-established the ad hoc committee to
continue with the mandate that it had been given; secondly, on
13 November, last year, Parliament readvertised in local,
regional and national newspapers, including the parliamentary
website; and thirdly, that the issue of the capabilities of
candidates was raised at the ad hoc committee indicating the
criteria that is stipulated there. All these shortlisted
candidates’ CV’s were published also on the parliamentary
website for transparency purposes. I have also just indicated
that overwhelmingly this Parliament recommended these seven
names reflecting the views of this Parliament. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Hon Minister, when the new board
members are appointed on their first day, is there any
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institutionalised induction programme or training available to
ensure that the board has a clear understanding of their mandate
as the NYDA board and how is this done? Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I am aware that when the
President appoints these members of the NYDA board, there is an
intention from the Deputy Minister to ensure that a proper
induction is conducted on all the members of the board so that
they know precisely what is expected.
So, I suppose that also the portfolio committee should be
interested in being participant in that process to ensure that
the decision of this House must be understood by those members
so that they can be able to exercise their fiduciary
responsibility and duties appropriately reflecting the decision
of this House.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Minister, six out of the seven board members
that have been appointed are either from the National Executive
Committee of the Youth League or the Young Communist League.
Majority of them do not have postsecondary qualifications.
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In the shortlist of the people that were nominated, there were
people who are chartered accountants, who are advocates, who
have board experience elsewhere and are young. I hear people
saying that you are part of the comrade marathon to be a
President of the ANC. Do you think that is rational as a
presidential candidate maybe? Do you think it is rational that
you ignore all other nominees and then just choose those ones
that coincidentally are in the National Executive Committee of
the Youth League and Yershen, from the Young Communist League
and Kenny from the Provincial Executive Committee, PEC, of the
ANC? Then you just put one IFP just to buy face like you are
doing now. Is that rational to could just ignore capable human
beings, young people, who can add value into the NYDA? That is
the question that we are asking you. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, also the evidence shows
that what Shivambu is saying is not borne by facts. Ndumiso, hon
Shivambu, Mr Mokako is a graduate of University of Pretoria,
with a Bachelor of Arts in Financial Accounting, Internal
Auditing and Financial Management and also has a certificate
from Rhodes University, another certificate from Wits Business
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School. I can go on. [Interjections.] Bavelile Hlongwa, BSc
Science Foundation Programme in the first year, [Interjections.]
Maimela, [Interjections.] Mopani FET College, Civil Engineering
and Building Construction, also University of South Africa, BA
Governance Public Administration, it goes on and on [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, I think we must record that they
don’t have qualification. They are still trying to have
qualification and the ANC ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon Shivambu, please take your seat. Hon
Shivambu, you don’t have the floor.
Question 8:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, the answer is: The
piloting of citizen-based monitoring in Tugela Ferry in KwaZuluNatal and Phuthaditjhaba in the Free State was the first wave of
an action-learning process that covered nine provinces between
2014 and 2015. the work highlighted a number of challenges
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particularly relevant to service delivery in rural areas and
these included; long waiting times, inadequate resourcing of
frontline facilities, maintenance of buildings and vehicles,
insufficient inclusion of community and traditional leadership
amongst others.
However, the feedback from citizens and staff was very positive
and encouraging and was used as a basis for dialogues between
community members, councillors and sector department officials
to understand the root causes of service delivery challenges.
All these dialogues were used to develop a local commitment
charter to address all those problem areas.
Overall, this pilot has been considered a success and learning
from the pilots and it is being applied on the ongoing work with
departments as officials reported to the portfolio committee
this morning. Thank you.
Mr M L D NTOMBELA: Hon Speaker, to the hon Minister, it is
encouraging to know that the participation planning method used
to turn feedback into actions is producing innovation solutions.
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However, inherent into any model are salient challenges across
the board. What could be these salient challenges of this model
and how can this model be improved because we still have some
sporadic incidents of protests albeit at a much reduced scale.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, part of the challenges
included infrastructural issues such as, amongst others, roads,
telecommunications, water pampering, upgrading of computer
systems and so on. An implementation evaluation was conducted
and concluded that the community-based monitoring pilot was
successfully tested and involved an inclusive credible approach
and methodology. That is why this action-learning approach
proves very effective for developing this method allowing for
flexibility and responsiveness in the tools and methods that
have been developed. We are hoping that the portfolio committee
will also ask those user departments to see what measures are
being put in place in order to correct all these challenges that
have been identified. Thank you.
Mr S C MOTAU: Speaker, to the hon Minister, you are aware that
similar projects have been conducted focusing on policing,
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health, South Africa Social Security Agency, Sassa, and social
welfare services involving 34 facilities. Apparently, as you
have indicated, important lessons were learned, for instance with regards to policing - police stations across the country
continue to report frustration with long turnaround times for
maintenance and repair of vehicles. This, as you are probably
aware, is very bad for service delivery and gives police
stations a very bad reputation among the people. What steps are
being taken to address this problem of police vehicles that seem
to be always out of commission when they are needed by the
people to improve quality of policing? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, firstly, some of the
infrastructure problems are not by the line function departments
but are through the Department of Public Works that is
responsible for the maintenance of some of these programmes.
That is why part of the recommendations that were made in the
portfolio committee is to call those line function departments
such the public works to indicate what improvement measure are
put in place in order to correct that.
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On the issue of police, I think the Portfolio Committee on
Police need to call the police department so that they can be
able to highlight what will be done in order to improve that
kind of a situation. So, this tool of community-based monitoring
is very useful in order to highlight to this Parliament what
needs to be done in order to ensure that the service delivery
happens in reality. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, to the hon Minister, thank you for your
response. I have not had the benefit of being in the portfolio
committee to find out what happened this morning, but a pilot
programme would suggest that this is something that we want to
learn from. This report was completed in December 2015, what I
would like to know is, have all the recommendations that were
proposed in that report been acted upon and have line function
departments been contacted by the Minister in the Presidency to
inform them of the defects or the concerns that people had in
these respective communities?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, yes, after every visit
we write to all the affected line function departments in order
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to ensure that all these issues, the challenges that are being
experienced are conveyed to them. Every quarter, as the
government, we report to Cabinet as to how far we are
implementing these improvement measures. As I have said, it is
therefore the responsibility of those line function departments
to effect those changes in order to ensure that the problems do
not recur. Thank you.
Mr S P MHLONGO: Madam Speaker, to the Minister, the framework
for citizen-based monitoring was approved by the Cabinet in 2013
and aimed to support government departments to strengthen
citizens’ voice in monitoring service delivery. The piloting of
this programme started in 2013 with, among others, the South
African Police Services, Department of Social Development and
South African Social Security Agency. Were you able to pick up
the problems with Sassa and the Department of Social Development
in relation to their continued violation of the Constitution
relating to the Cash Paymaster Services, CPS, contract and the
doubts about their incapacity to distribute social grants from 1
April? If so, what actions did you take hon Minister?
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: The question from the hon member
does not arise from this original question. He should be aware
that last week Cabinet decided that today that matter is going
to be discussed. I think we should wait until Cabinet finalises
on that specific matter.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Speaker, to the hon Minister, we
understand that your department plays a transversal or an
overarching role and of course this is a pilot; it is a model
that still has to be interrogated and then implemented. The
situation is very dire, especially along the environs of Tugela
Ferry in Msinga, for instance, in Ward 16 eMngeni, you find that
people use donkeys to carry water containers and there’s an
issue of the broadband programme that the government wanted to
pilot there. What is your department doing to ensure that this
is implemented urgently? Working with other departments, of
course, what are the priorities that you have set forth that you
want to ensure that people get the service delivery? I just
alluded to only one in Ward 16. Thank you, hon Minister.
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Speaker, as I was saying, it
is not expected that we as a department will be doing those
things; we liaise with all those affected government departments
so that they must put these measures in place to ensure that
these things are corrected.
The role of the local government in those municipalities also
have a bigger responsibility of ensuring that they identify
those problems that have been given to them in order to improve
those measures. Non-governmental organisations and ordinary
members of society also have a very important role as part of
active citizenry because all these matters cannot be solved by
government alone; each and everyone of us has a duty and
responsibility to ensure that we build these issues for the
benefit of communities at large.
Question 2:
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE KAHULUMENI WOKUBAMBISANA KANYE NEZINDABA
ZEZENDABUKO: Siyabonga Nkosi Cebekhulu, kunjalo baba.
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English:
We have registered progress. Debt decreased by R699 million in
January 2017. This is from a reported debt of R10,2 billion in
November 2016. I must indicate that this shows substantial
progress in resolving this challenge.
But, it is also important to know that the escalating debt that
is owed by municipalities to Eskom is not only driven by
nonpayment. As I indicated when I responded to Question 19,
there are also structural challenges that exacerbate the
challenge. But, quite interestingly, I must indicate that Eskom
is intending to reduce the current interest rate to prime plus
2,5%. On the initial arrangement Eskom charged prime plus 5%.
Now, as one of the measures to attend to these structural
challenges they are intending to decrease this to prime plus
2,5. We think this will go a long way towards assisting
municipalities to deal with the interest charged on that kind of
debt. Thank you very much.
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: I thank the hon Minister for the answer.
Hon Minister, why is it that revenue collected for the purpose
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of residential electrification by our municipalities and paid
into the general municipal banking account is being siphoned off
for other municipal expenses, with the net effect being that the
money which is earmarked for the settlement of their Eskom
account is spent elsewhere? Does it not make sense, hon
Minister, to have a separate municipal banking account solely
for Eskom monies? Why is this not being done? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Indeed, Nkosi yami [my Chief] there is this particular problem,
but it is not like an illegal practice. The current arrangement
derives from the Municipal Finance Management Act, Act 56 of
2003, and provides for the cross-subsidisation of basic
services. Now, as part of the financial challenges that we are
faced with, there is a contemplation of ring-fencing what is
generated from the provision of this basic service. Among other
things, I must indicate that in other municipalities it’s not
even about cross-subsidisation from revenue generated by
electricity, but it’s from subsidisation from revenue generated
by the provision of other basic services. So, there is that
particular overlap and there is a proposal to look at the
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possibilities of ring-fencing this particular service. It will
help, among other things, to ensure that municipalities are able
to monitor their consumption rate but also the value they derive
from the money they invest in providing this particular service,
because some of the municipalities are unable pick up or recover
the costs they incur as a result of providing this service. So,
it will be important that that particular option is entertained
and, as I have said, we are currently entertaining that option.
Thank you very much.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Minister, we brought those structural challenges
you spoke about — the interest rate and the billing cycle — to
your department’s attention more than two years ago and nothing
happened. It is only when it’s a crisis again that something has
happened.
But, Minister, noting that much of the debt to Eskom is
historical, will you concede that the amalgamation of
municipalities has not, in fact, improved the viability of
dysfunctional municipalities and has actually had the effect of
dragging several previously viable municipalities into a
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financial crisis, as has occurred with the Tlokwe and
Ventersdorp amalgamation?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Indeed, we have been dealing with this problem for quite some
time. It didn’t start two years ago, hon member. Welcome to
local government! It started with the system. So, the truth of
the matter is that we should appreciate the progress that has
been made because, as I said, Eskom has for the first time
conceded that it must relook at this particular challenge and I
think we should appreciate that. It has been a long struggle but
I think we are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
Of course, you are right, not all amalgamation is yielding the
same results. The performance is uneven. There are
municipalities who have been amalgamated and of course there are
practices of good performances that are picked up from those
municipalities. But, of course, there are municipalities that
are still having challenges even after amalgamation. So, that is
why it is important for us to continue working with these
municipalities. I am not sure of the report of the newly
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amalgamated municipalities of Tlokwe and Ventersdorp. It is
still too early to come to that conclusion. Thank you very much.
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Minister, you have highlighted
earlier that these are very complex problems that deal with the
structural financial viability. However, I would like you to
share with this House the critical intervention that has already
taken place between your department and Treasury because it can
maybe help the House. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Besides financial challenges, we also have legal challenges. I
must indicate that, in terms of section 156 of schedule 4(b) of
our Constitution, municipalities have executive authority in
respect of and the right to administer the reticulation of
electricity. However, this executive authority is not recognised
by some of the role-players in the energy sector. Additionally,
the legal status of electricity distribution between Eskom and
municipalities is very contentious and this is one area that we
are dealing with as part of our intervention in those affected
municipalities. Thank you very much.
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Minister, thank you for your responses.
Minister, in terms of your investigation ... and I will accept
that you say sometimes it is the financial status of
municipalities that is a problem. However, in many instances we
might find that it is as a result of the inefficiency of
officials in the municipality. What are you intending to do
about implementing consequences for such inefficiency and,
secondly, what is the impact on Eskom when municipalities fail
to pay timeously?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
As earlier indicated, inefficiencies are also picked up as part
of the problem, but they are dealt with appropriately. But,
remember now, we are at a stage where we are regulating the
competency level of municipal managers but also section 56
managers. Those are managers that report to municipal managers.
We think that, through that process — albeit not that popular, I
must indicate, because we have received some resistance from
other municipalities as we enforce the provision of these
regulations ... We think this particular approach is going to
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yield the required results by ensuring that we appoint the right
people with the required competency level to do the job. I think
this will help us a lot to deal with this particular problem.
Of course, the impact of Eskom not being paid ... remember Eskom
is borrowing money – I mean – to invest in its infrastructure.
As you are aware, we need energy. As, of course, espoused in the
National Development Plan, NDP, energy is very central to the
growth plans of this country. So, if Eskom is unable to recoup
the money that it uses to provide this service, obviously this
affects its credit worthiness. So the results ... of course, the
impact on Eskom might not necessarily have an adverse effect on
Eskom but on the broader plan of our country as outlined in the
National Development Plan. Thank you very much.
Question 1:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
The dissolution of new two municipal councils came as a result
of the failure of the councillors to constitute the council, to
elect its office bearers, and its representatives to the
Umzinyathi District Municipality.
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I would like to register our disappointment with the conduct of
these former councillors. They are former councillors now
because that municipality has been disbanded. They have failed
their electorate, compromised our democratic government system
and undermined their people’s confidence. In my take, I think
they have committed an act of betrayal to our beloved democracy.
The MEC for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs in
KwaZulu-Natal has appointed an administrator for the
municipality. This is provided for in terms of section 35 of the
Municipal Structures Act. Of course read that jointly with
section 139(1) (c) of our Constitution. The administrator is
already stationed in the municipality and is fulfilling the
executive obligations of the municipality, including ensuring
service deliver until a new municipality council is elected.
Apart from this, the provincial executive council resolved on 8
February 2017, the same day it took the resolution to disband
the municipal council, to conduct community engagement
activities in the municipal area, starting with the Premier’s
Imbizo scheduled for today. As we speak, I think they are done
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with that particular activity. Each member of the provincial
executive council has a separate programme to engage the
community to access its service delivery requirements and where
relevant, to address those service delivery requirements.
However, it should be noted that albeit the municipality had
serious governance problems, occasioned by the failure of its
municipal council to constitute itself to elect the executive
leadership, the disbanding of the municipal council was not due
to service deliver issues.
On our part as a department we have officials designated to the
province as part of our Back to Basics Programme Task Team who
are monitoring the performance of the municipality, including
the performance of each service delivery function. These
officials are always ready to provide the municipality with
further assistance should there be a need. I thank you very
much.
IsiZulu:
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Solz N M KHUBISA: Somlomo, iqiniso Ngqongqoshe ukuthi inkinga
ibe khona uma umkhandlu ungakheki ungakwazi ukubumbeka. Iqiniso
lithi esindaweni ezifana naseQhudeni, koHlazakazi Mandeni
nakoHoqo abantu bebekhala ngamanzi, bekhala ngemigwaqo kanjalo
[well] nezindlu nokunye nokunye bengenazo nezindlu zangasese.
Ngiqonda ukuthi umnyango kufanele usebenze neminye iminyango
ukuze zikwazi ukutholakal lezi zinto esengikhulume ngazo. Yini
mhlawumbe umnyango oyenzile ukuxhumana nezinye izinhlaka
ezisemphakathini njengosomabhizinisi, njengezinhlangano
ezizimele, imiphakathi noma izinhlangano ezingenzi inzuzo, NPOs
izinhlangano ezingezona ezikahulumeni, NGOs, kanye nezinhlangano
zezenkolo, FBOs, ukuze abantu baqhubeke basizakale intuthuko
ihambe iye phambili? Ngoba noma umkhandlu ungekho kodwa abantu
kusukela nje ungakudlanga umkhandlu bebeyidinga intuthuko ukuthi
kuqhutshekwe kuyiwe phambili. Ngiyabonga Somlomo.
English:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Indeed, Prof, your concern is our concern. That is why we have
insisted that as part of our concurrence with the dissolution,
we have said to MEC Nomusa Dube: They must make sure that they
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hit the ground running. They must communicate the outcome of
this particular decision to the community.
Hence, I am saying today as we speak, the Premier is expected to
be addressing if not already have addressed an imbizo there.
Members of the executive council have also been assigned from
various sector departments to engage various sectors of the
affected community. I think it is appropriate for us to
apologise on behalf of government for the inconvenience caused
by these former councillors who served in that municipality.
Thank you very much.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Minister, you are a 1005, the disbanding of
Nquthu Municipality had nothing to do with service delivery and
everything to do with the failure of the ANC to accept the
outcome of the elections on 3 August 2016 as free and fair ...
[Interjections.] ... and consequently, its failure to accept the
rulings of the presiding officers at the various council
meetings called to elect the municipal leadership.
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Now, will the Minister acknowledge that the meeting should have
followed the process described in Schedule 3 of the Municipal
Structures Act, and that the failure reflects more on the
incompetence of the MEC to ensure that those meetings were
properly conducted.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
I am not sure if you have been following this process properly
or not. If yes, then you have missed an opportunity when the MEC
was here, to explain to both Houses about the situation there.
Both Houses - both committees from the two House - unanimously
agreed that such action was necessary. So, I am not sure which
step did you miss.
In my take - hence I concurred with the request of the province
- all steps as prescribed were properly followed, more
especially in section 139(1)(a)-(c) -. I don’t know which step
did you miss there. Unfortunately, I must indicate that the MEC
followed due process and the NCOP ultimately visited the
municipality and concurred equally with my concurrence to say
let us move for dissolution. So, I don’t know what it is that
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you miss but you can be provided with a report if there is a
step that you miss hon member. Thank you very much.
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Minister, the truth of the matter is that the
same MEC that you so pronounce that she were part of the
solution is also part of the problem there. She has financial
interests there through the husband. The ANC councillors were
coached on several times to betray their obligations and make
sure that the municipality doesn’t sit. What are you prepared to
do to make sure that the Councillors Code of Conduct prohibit
this action?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon member, I don’t want to say that you are lying but I think
one think that we should respond to is: Why if such a serious
allegation is levelled against the MEC – because I know it is
fashionable to you to run to court and police stations to open
cases – why haven’t you done that if such is true because you
are levelling a very serious allegation? [Interjections.]
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Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: There is
evidence in Mkhanyakude. [Interjections.] The MEC’s husband
ordered pipes and those pipes are sitting in the veld.
[Interjections.] That is evidence enough for you!
The SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha, that’s not a point of order. Please
proceed Minister.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker! Speaker, the Minister is saying
why are we not going to the police. We have opened a case
against the Guptas in Rosebank, they are still not arrested.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu! Hon Shivambu, please take your seat
and let the Minister finish. Hon Shivambu, please take your
seat! Finish, hon Minister! [Interjections.]
Mr H P CHAUKE: Hon Speaker! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Speaker, I don’t think it is fair for us to allow a situation
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whereby the national House is used to ridicule and undermine
MECs who are working very hard in their provinces.
[Interjections.] KwaZulu-Natal is one of the best performing
provinces, so there is no way in which we can allow lie peddlers
to come here and tell lies about thee performance of our MEC.
Thank you very much.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member. What is the point that you are
rising on?
Mr H P CHAUKE: Hon Speaker, I am rising on Rule 62(c) read with
Rule 92(11). Rule 92(11) dictates that:
The Presiding Officer’s ruling on a point of order is final
and binding; and may not be challenged or questioned in the
House.
From time to time - about three times now - the members of the
EFF have been challenging your ruling which amounts to gross
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disorderly conduct and I think you must rule on that hon
Speaker. Actually, when are they resigning from Parliament?
[Applause.]
The SPEAKER: As you mention, you are saying from time to time,
which is quite a general matter. We now come to the IFP member,
hon Hlengwa, to ask ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Uxolo [sorry], uxolo kancane Sihlalo, sawubona.
USOMLOMO: Cha mama uKhawula.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ikhona lento yamapayipi kaR138 million, kade
sikhuluma ngawo. Musani ukugqiba izinto. Abantu abanawo amanzi!
USOMLOMO: Mama uKhawula, ngiyacela [please] uhlale phansi. Awuve
uziphatha kahle laphayana emakomidini. Angazi kwenzekani uma
usulana. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
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Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Speaker, let’s fist correct one thing: It is
not all the councillors that caused this. And Minister, I am
deployed there, so I know what I am talking about: On seven
occasions, ANC councillors have disrupted council meetings. The
MEC’s husband has got business in Inquthu, Mzinyathi,
Mkhanyakude and Ejozini. In all these instances, she has used
section 139(1)(c) like she did in Mtubatuba. The pipes are there
in the veld [ehlathini] which her husband bought. Minister, why
do you allow for section 139 to be abused for political reasons?
A mayor was elected in Nquthu: Mayor Kunene, Deputy Mayor Zungu
and Speaker Mnguni. So, it is a lie of the highest order to say
that elections did not take place. The ANC does not want to
accept the results. They are now abusing the Constitution. The
news is this: Go to Nquthu, we are going to beat you hands down
in these by-elections. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
I hope you will have time to hit the ground running. We can’t
use Parliament for doing door-to-door campaign. I think it is
crucially important to repeat the process that was followed:
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There was a directive issued as provided for by section 139.
After a directive was issued, there was an intervention that was
made as provided for by section 139.
So, we can’t wait forever. I have warned you in your previous
submission hon member. You made the statement twice about
Nquthu, and I have warned you that at an appropriate time we
will definitely support the dissolution. So, due processes were
followed. However, once more I am encouraging you: Please follow
the provision of the law to register your complaints. I have
also challenged you to make a submission. I am still waiting for
your submission! Thank you very much hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Question 7:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you once more, let me thank hon Mthethwa for asking the
question. The National Bucket Eradication Project is
administered by the Department of Water and Sanitation. I must
indicate the information was solicited from the National
Sanitation Programme Unit of the Department of Water and
Sanitation and they stated that there were no sanitary buckets
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found in the formal area town of Philippolis. The Department of
Water and Sanitation, the Free State provincial government,
Bloem Water and Kopanong Local Municipality made an assessment
of all the areas of Kopanong Local Municipality and there were
no sanitary buckets found in the formal areas of the town of
Philippolis. The municipal manager of the Kopanong Local
Municipality has validated that there are no sanitary buckets in
use in the municipality but I will urge hon member if there is
information that might not be known by the authority there, this
information should be brought to our attention. Thank you very
much hon Speaker.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thanks Minister for your response but I want to
put it to you that in the previous year towards the end of last
year we have been dealing with a public hearing. But the issue
that was raised in the public hearing, this matter was the
matter that was raised in the public hearing. However, we
appreciate it if these issues have been resolved by now. We will
await your response.
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The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I do not know whether you want to
make a comment.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
No, in fact it is not a question it is just a comment by the
member. The comment is noted.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Speaker, my question takes this issue a little
more broad. Now, we note that the initial deadline for the
eradication of bucket toilets in formal settlements was 2007 and
that was set by President Mbeki and that this deadline was
extended to December 2015. Minister, what is the reason that
your department has failed to ensure that that the municipal
infrastructure grant has been properly utilised to ensure the
complete eradication of bucket toilets?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
The answer is very simple and straightforward. Our settlement
patterns are not static. They are very dynamic. So here we are
chasing a moving target. So as a result, we will continue to
pick up this particular challenge but I think we should
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appreciate that there is a lot of progress that has been made. I
think we just shared the Outcome 9 report. We have the higher
authority. It clearly shows that we are making steady progress
in as far as this problem is concerned. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Mnu R N CEBEKHULU: Somlomo, Mhlonishwa, mhlawumbe yiqiniso
elingephikwe leli, uzakwethu lapha umhlonishwa u-Mileham kade
elibeka. Ngesikhathi sikamhlonishwa uMongameli u-Mbeki kwavela
kwacaca ukuthi ayekuthembisile akufezekanga luphele uhlelo
lokuthutha indle ngamabhakede, [bucket system] amathoyilethi.
Namanje njena sisezwa ngawo. Umhlonishwa uthini odabeni lwawo
futhi ngokufanayo kwi-Nelson Mandela Bay ngoba nakhona inkinga
ibingakaze ixazululwe kuze kube yimanjena? Nanxa umhlonishwa
engafuni mhlawumbe ukugudlulela [shift] komunye kodwa nje
ngokomnyango wakho, yini oyenzayo okubona leminyango
ethintakalayo isebenzisana nowakho iyawenza umsebenzi ngendla
yokusiza umphakathi ukuphucula izimpilo zabo. Siyathokoza.
English:
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon member, as indicated in my previous response, we are making
progress on dealing with this matter and every year ,as you are
aware, there are allocations that are made to entertain this
particular problem. I can just cite an example. A total of 874
bucket sanitation systems were eradicated against the 2016-2017
financial year target of 1 635. But, I must indicate that low
performance is as a result of most of the current work being
done on reticulation networks. So there is progress, we are
committed to dealing with this particular problem but the only
challenge is that we are dealing here with what I termed a
moving target. It is not a static problem which you could
address easily. Our settlement patterns are very dynamic. Thank
you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Speaker, thank you hon Minister, like the
people of Philippolis many areas in the country are being
marginalised and are neglected especially the poorest of the
poor communities. And I will give you areas like Philippi in the
Western Cape, Heinz Park, Lavender Hill, and the Cape Flats who
are living under shocking conditions and have been marginalised
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for far too long. Is it Minister within your mandate to
intervene as national government? Or do you think there is a
need for legislative amendments to override provincial
governments to ensure that our people get the service delivery
that they need and not marginalised either because of their
financial status or because of their colour. Thank you.
[Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Indeed we are dealing with this particular problem as part of
our commitment to ensure that we provide a better life to all of
our people but I must indicate that we still pick up problems
where communities are complaining of being marginalised and what
is disturbing is the fact that some of these complaints are
picked up from areas or provinces that are referred to as the
best provinces of delivering services. So we are really
disturbed by some of these findings and we will continue to
follow up on some of these problems. Thank you very much hon
Speaker. [Applause.]
Question 5:
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The SPEAKER: The hon Minister wrote a letter requesting that the
questions in her name stand over. Of course, Rule 144(1(a)
provides that a question for oral reply must stand over if the
Minister to whom it is addressed so requests, either in the
Assembly when the question is called for reply, or by notice in
writing to the Speaker before the start of the question time on
the day for which it is on the Question Paper. Indeed, I note
the concerns raised by members which I will convey to the Leader
of Government Business. I am referring the matter to the
programme committee to consider scheduling these questions in
terms of the Rules.
Ms E N LOUW: Speaker, I would like to register our
disappointment to the Minister. Today is the International
Women’s Day and it is quite disappointing that the Minister is
not here to answer these issues that we have asked. Please, note
that we do take time to prepare these questions to her. If we do
not know in time that she will not be here it is quite
disappointing. Therefore, we would like to register our
disappointment that it is clear that the ANC does not take women
issues and women abuse seriously in this country. I thank you.
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The SPEAKER: That is actually not a point of order. Because of
the International Women’s Day, I let you finish your point.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I address
you in terms of Rule 138 of the National Assembly Rules.
The SPEAKER: Yes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Unfortunately, I am not a
woman so I will not get an indulgence of extra time so let me be
quick. Madam Speaker, section 92 of the Constitution says that
members of the executive are accountable to this House for their
actions. Section 55 of the same Constitution says that this
House must provide internal mechanisms for Members of Parliament
to exercise oversight over the Ministers - to exercise executive
authority. The guide procedure recognises oral questions to
Ministers as one of the cardinal mechanisms to do so, it is in
fact the only unscripted time that we have with Ministers in the
House in the current setup.
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Therefore, when a Minister misses the House it is not simply a
matter of registering a disappointment, but I think it is about
disrespectful of this House, a remarkable disrespectful of the
Constitution and a remarkable disrespect. [Interjections.] Calm
down dear, let me finish.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS: Hon Speaker!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It is remarkably
disrespectful...
The SPEAKER: Order hon members, can you let hon Steenhuisen
finish.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I think it is a remarkable
disrespect of the oath of office that those Ministers have
taken. Raise your argument and not your voice. Madam Speaker, I
appreciate the steps that you have taken. I am glad the Leader
of Government Business is here because there was a discussion at
the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning. I am glad it has been
conveyed to you. The Leader of Government Business is to make
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sure that his Ministers are here. That is his responsibility and
we don’t accept the excuse that has been offered around some
other events. This has been on the parliamentary programme for a
long time and Ministers need to prioritise their oversight
responsibility to this House. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I note your concerns and they shall be conveyed
formally to the Leader of Government Business who of course has
heard it all.
Ms C C PILANE-MAJAKE: Hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
Ms C C PILANE-MAJAKE: I rise on Rule 68, to say what the leader
of the DA has just mentioned. It is just irrelevant and
repetitive of what you already have outlined in terms of
processes that will follow the absence of the Minister. I take
it that the Leader of the Opposition is just standing because an
explanation has been given. Whatever he was saying wasn’t really
necessary. Thank you.
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Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, I am just making a follow up
that this matter is serious because we even spoke about it at
the Chief Whips’ Forum. Now, to say that somebody is
grandstanding on the matter I think is a matter of grave concern
because this matter came sharply at the Chief Whips’ Forum
today. Thank you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, the Chief Whip of the DA raises a
point of order and your ruling is that you have taken note of
what he had said and you will convey the message to the Minister
and to the Leader of Government Business. She rises on a point
of order on an issue that you have already made a ruling. I
think there is a level of irrationality there. You must attend
to it in terms of how you deal with your issues. I think also
the the Chief Whip of the Majority Party must keep his Whips
that side so that he is able to guide them in terms of the
points that they can raise on in terms of these issues. Really,
that was so low. Please!
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu and hon members, please, let me make
us move to Question 17. A question asked by Hon Mileham of the
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DA to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs who is here earning his salary today.
Question 17:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you hon Mileham for the question. Hon Speaker, the local
government equitable share allocation has increased from
R52 billion in the previous financial year to R57 billion to the
current financial year. This allocation provides funding for
municipalities to deliver free basic services to poor households
and subsidises the cost of administration and other core
services for those municipalities that have the least potential
to cover these costs from their own revenues.
The Municipal Systems Improvement Grant has decreased lightly
from R104 million in the previous financial year to R103 million
in the current financial year. This allocation is an indirect
grant which is arranged to fund a range of projects in
municipalities in support of the Back to Basics strategy. This
includes helping municipalities, set up adequate record
management systems, drawing up organograms for municipalities
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and reviewing their appropriateness relative to their assigned
functions and assisting municipalities with revenue collection
plans.
The other popular grant is the municipal infrastructure grant
which has increased by 5,7% from the previous financial year
period allocation of R49,8 billion to the current year MediumTerm Expenditure Framework, MTEF, allocation of R50,4 billion. I
must indicate, hon Speaker, that 226 municipalities will be
receiving this allocation over the MTEF period starting from
2017. The municipal infrastructure grant, MIG, framework has
been extended over the years to accommodate funding constraints
experienced in municipal infrastructure. The grant now allows
for the funding of new upgraded and renewed infrastructure to
ensure that communities do receive services. Municipalities can
also fund road maintenance challenges which have been confirmed
through the rural roads access management system.
Hon Speaker, R300 million is being ring-fenced per annum since
2016-17 to develop new and also upgrade or refurbish sports
infrastructure with municipalities. This is in addition to the
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5% that municipalities must spend on their annual MIG allocation
towards sports infrastructure. I thank you very much, hon
Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr K J MILEHAM: Madam Speaker, with all due respect to the
Minister, he didn’t answer the question at all, which relates to
the reduction in the baseline grants to municipalities and
provincial governments - some R2 billion in immediate financial
year ahead of us and R6 billion over the Medium-Term Expenditure
Framework – I will refer specifically to page 53 of the Annual
Review of the Budget. Minister, how do you intend to ensure that
these conditional grants that you’ve just outlined would be
utilised for the purposes that they are intended, in other
words, that they are utilised according to the law and
regulations that are set down by the National Treasury for the
purposes for which they are intended, ie, not for municipal
operations and salaries, as we have seen in ANC-led
municipalities across South Africa?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you very much, hon Mileham. You are referring to base
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allocation but your question is speaking of grant allocation to
local government. However, I can still provide some information
to you as to how this has been processed. In terms of the
Division of Revenue Bill over the MTEF period, transfers, of
course, were reduced by R2,8 billion in total including
R2,5 billion from direct grants and R189,3 million from indirect
grants. To make resources available ... this is very important
for you to listen. To make resources available for other
government priorities, small reductions are made to a mix of
urban and rural grants including the public transport, network
grant, the water services infrastructure grant, the municipal
infrastructure grant and the Urban Settlements Development
Grant. So, of course, there has been some reduction, but we have
realised some transfers from some of those grants to cushion the
impact of such reductions. Thank you very much.
Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Speaker, underfunding in municipalities
would mean, amongst others, that smaller several municipalities
would struggle to operate and maintain their service delivery
and infrastructure cost-effectively. The end result of this is
rapid deterioration of assets, chronic, financial management and
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rampant corruption and regular prolonged disruption in service
delivery.
Now, hon Minister, have you considered a desirability of doing
away with provinces in order to ensure that bulk of our public
money goes where it is needed most to municipalities rather than
to provinces?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you very much, hon member. It sounds very ideal, but as
you know it’s not just a straightforward process. The reality of
the matter is that how we reconfigure the arrangement of our
governance system is an ongoing discourse. I think at an
appropriate time we might have an opportunity to look into some
of the suggestions that are being tabled. I must confess because
I know you started somewhere before and you know that discussion
and you have left it in our family. We are still continuing with
that discussion and at an appropriate time we will come with a
discussion document or policy paper that will solicit your
input. Thank you very much.
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Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Speaker, I rise on the point of order.
The SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Van Rooyen tries to blackmail me, in that I
am part of the mess that the ANC is responsible for.
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon. Please that is not a point of order.
[Interjections.] Please take a seat.
Mr N S MATIASE: If you could not answer the question, you should
have said so, but not to blackmail me. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngiyathokoza mhlonishwa Somlomo, cha angikho
kulena yokuqola phecelezi ―blackmail‖.
English:
Hon Minister, one of the challenges which municipalities face is
the stranglehold which the provinces hold on them particularly
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the abuse of political power from provinces and then, of course,
this means that municipalities most often do not find themselves
having to be subject to the winds of the provincial governments
in terms of those who occupy offices. Let’s take for example the
office of uMsinga where the housing projects are being withheld
for no reason other than a political punishment to the people of
uMsinga. How do you arrive at a situation where municipalities
are able to receive the funds without the political
exploitation, which we continue to witness particularly in
KwaZulu-Natal, where that province punishes any municipality
that is not ANC-run?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon Speaker, thank you very much, Baba, for your question. You
know its quite disturbing because from where I am seated as a
Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, I’m
working very smoothly with provinces to address problems of
municipalities, but every time you stand up hon Hlengwa you
raise some serious allegations about the performance of
provinces, more especially your home province. Look I must
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challenge you once more, you are young, I know I am a bit older
but feel free to come to my office.
Mr M HLENGWA: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Cha lungu elihloniphekile Hlengwa usakhuluma
umhlonishwa. Ngicela umdedele akhulume. Mdelele akuphendule.
Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngicela nawe ungivikele. Ngicela ungivikele
Somlomo.
USOMLOMO: Ngiyakuvikela yingakho ngigcizelela ukuthi
akakuphendule.
Mnu M HLENGWA: Uma ezokuqhubeka ngalendlela ngalempendulo le
yilapho impela ngilimala khona kanti kufanele kube nguwena
ongivikelayo Somlomo. [Ubuwelewele.]
USOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi ngizokuvikela.
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Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngicela ungivikele lungu elihloniphekile Somlomo
ukukhalima ophambukayo.
USOMLOMO: Lungu elihloniphekile Hlengwa ngizama ukukuvikela
ngokuthi uthole impendulo.
English:
What is your point of order? [Interjections.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Madam Speaker, the Minister now is casting
aspersions on me. [Interjections.] I must not raise these
matters in the street; I am elected to raise them here. Why must
he belittle the fact that I am raising matters here? Where else
must I raise them?
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: u-caster ama-arspersion ngokuthini?
English:
Mr M HLENGWA: The issue of being young is not a problem. I am
young and it is not an issue. [Interjections.] What the issue
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is, let him play the ball not the man.
Let him engage the
issue.
IsiZulu:
Mnu M HLENGWA: Kungani angisole ngokuphakamisa udaba lapha ngoba
wenza ngathi ngiyona uma ngizophakamisa udaba lapha. Uyangisola
ngokwenza lokho. [Ubuwelewele.] Awungivikeli [ubuwelewele.]
uyangisola. Uvumelani angisole ngokwenza umsebenzi wami.
USOMLOMO: Cha kulungile ke lungu elihloniphekile Hlengwa.
Mnu M HLENGWA: Kungani uvuma angisole uma ngenza umsebenzi
wami.[Ubuwelewele.]
USOMLOMO: Sengikuzwile ukuthi ukhala ngani.
Mnu M HLENGWA: Hhayi, hhayi!
USOMLOMO: Ngifuna ukubuka ukuthi utheni.
English:
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Hon Minister, I will actually look at what exactly did you say
that was casting aspersion on the hon Hlengwa?
IsiZulu:
Ngoba akushoyo ukuthi ukuba mncane vele mncane futhi
akanamahloni ngokubamncane kwakhe. Kufanele abemncane ngoba
wazalwa ngalesiya sikhathi azelwe ngaso.
English:
I will look at the actually words of the Minister on the matter
of him casting aspersions. Hon Minister, can you continue
answering the Question of the hon Hlengwa.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Maybe, hon Speaker, to cut long story short. I think it is
important that ... I know the temptations are very high to use
the House for people to see that you are doing some work.
However, I want to argue that it is important for members to
take advantage – take advantage of the invitation.
[Interjections.]
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IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Lungu elihloniphekile Hlengwa intukuthelo ayisizi
[Ubuwelewele.] Bengingakamuzwa ekuhlasela.
UMnu M HLENGWA: Uthule uthini engihlasela? Ulwa nami nje
uNgqongqoshe.
USOMLOMO: Bengingakamuzwa ukuthi ulwa nawe. Mina ngikuthatha
ngenye indlela. [Ubuwelewele.] Hhayi, ngale ndlela yakho.
Asehlise imimoya. [Ubuwelewele.] Baba uMncwango ngicela nawe
usisize. Qhubeka mhlonishwa Van Rooyen.
English:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon Speaker, what I am saying is that where I am seated I know
for a fact that I am working very smoothly with various
provinces to address problems of municipalities. If there is any
information that members know of that we are not aware of, I am
welcoming them to forward that information instead of coming
here and grandstand. [Applause.]
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The SPEAKER: Okay, hon Mncwango, hon Hlengwa, hon Singh, I think
I must take hon Singh because he is the Chief Whip of the IFP.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I think the hon Minister is totally out
of order, if he suggests that a member in this House is
grandstanding. All members short or tall, young or old are
members representing the public out there and they are entitled
to make the points known in this House. [Applause.] I think the
hon Minister should withdraw, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: I take your point, hon Singh. I now take hon
Shelembe. Hon Shelembe?
Mr M L SHELEMBE: Minister, what plan do you have to ensure that
municipalities are going to ensure that their spending is in
line with the reduce grant allocation and prevent irregular
expenditure by municipalities?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you very much, hon member. [Interjections.] There has been
a problem in the past and, of course, we still pick up part of
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this problem of underexpenditure in other municipalities but
mainly as a result of technical capacity that is lacking in most
of our municipalities, among other things. Now as you are all
aware, currently the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, which I am leading, has established a unit
called Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency, Misa. This unit
is specifically meant to assist municipalities that are unable
to adhere to the provisions of MIG allocations and other grants,
but also who are unable to spend this money appropriately;
again, to assist municipalities who don’t have technical skills
to spend the money. So since the introduction of Misa, we have
seen a massive improvement on how municipalities are using some
of these allocations and that is something that we will continue
to do. We are monitoring performance of municipalities, why
municipalities have technical problems. Through the support of
Misa we are assisting those municipalities.
Question 4:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Speaker, hon member, one of the key design features of the
Community Work Programme, CWP, is that the programme is executed
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through implementing agents, who are nonprofit organisations
because these NPOs do not generally operate in a public service
environment. They are not familiar with the Public Finance
Management Act, which regulates how public funds are utilised,
managed and accounted for.
Working with these implementing agents whose responsibilities
include them procuring for the CWP sites and managing assets on
behalf of the department, places the department at a great risk
of incurring irregular expenditure, if these implementing agents
fail to adhere to PFMA prescripts and supply chain management
procedures.
In the current financial year, the CWP budget allocation is
approximately R3,2 billion. With that amount of money and a
concomitant responsibility of ensuring that the programme is
implemented efficiently and effectively, the department deemed
it critical to establish a capacitated internal audit
directorate that will focus solely on this programme. This was
effected during the 2015-16 financial year, consisting of a team
of four – one Director of Internal Audit, and three senior
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internal auditors. The internal audit directorate has
contributed to enhancing CWP processes and internal controls in
the Free State as well as in other provinces.
In January and February last year, the internal audit unit
conducted a site visit to Free State. Three CWP sites were a
sample for audits. That is Mangaung, Phumelela and Metsimaholo.
The purpose of the site visits was to assess the adequacy and
effectiveness of the CWP processes and internal controls, in
order to provide reasonable assurance that the department’s goal
in respect of the CWP implementation in the province will be
attained.
Although the audit did not focus on irregular expenditure and
compliance with supply chain management policies, the CWP
management did recognise the importance of strengthening the CWP
implementing agents’ adherence to supply chain management
prescripts, in order to curb irregular expenditure.
Consequently, the department undertook a number of facilitative
initiatives that we think will assist us to implement both the
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financial and nonfinancial initiatives that have been
identified.
Mr M A DIRKS: Chair, Mr Van Rooyen, thank you for the detailed
response to my question. [Applause.] I do not believe that we
should use the follow-up opportunity for questions as a means to
grandstand in the House and waste people’s time here. So, there
is no follow-up question from me. You have answered my question
in detail. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr K J MILEHAM: Chairperson, Minister, this programme is of
critical importance to assisting municipalities, but also people
who are without work or who have limited work opportunities. One
of the problems that keeps being brought up again and again is
the fact that it is being monopolised by the ruling party in
certain municipalities, where councillors and municipal
officials are demanding membership cards of a political party in
order to get work in the CWP. What steps are you taking to
ensure that the CWP is not politically linked and that those
officials and councillors requiring party membership cards from
applicants will have action taken against them?
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chair, hon members, as you are all aware, this programme,
as you have correctly said, is part of the safety net that is
provided to the poor and unemployed. At least, they receive
their wages, which help them to provide for their basic
necessities of life and also for their families.
As you are aware, there has been a problem with this programme,
but the problems that have been identified through a forensic
process are deficiencies that relate to issues of how some of
the implementing agents were procured. There are also
deficiencies on how some of these implementing agents account on
the procurement of assets. So, the list is long.
Truly speaking, the forensic investigations have not come to the
simple conclusion that you have just made that the CWP is being
used for political reasons. What we know is that this programme
has catered for women, young people, irrespective of political
affiliation. Thank you.
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Mr L S TLHAOLE: House Chair, there have been many allegations
about how the ANC corrupts the Community Works Programme to
ensure that their card-carrying members get the job
opportunities that this programme offers, and that most
contracts are given to ANC cadres. [Interjections.] What have
you done to ensure that the programme is free of corruption? As
a Minister with very direct links to a family that is doling of
corruption in this country, are you convince that you are the
right person to fight corruption committed through the CWP?
[Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon House Chair, I think I have answered that question. Thank
you very much. [Interjections.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Minister, the issue with the Community Works
Programme is that, in the main, as you spoke about chasing
moving targets, they go to the extent to which the same job can
be counted twice today and tomorrow. Then it is counted as a
work opportunity. Does that actually credibly tell us whether we
are addressing the unemployment problem in the country or do we
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just paper over the issues or is it just pretence? You move from
here to that place and from this place to that place and you are
counting the same thing twice. It then pushes the number up as
if the programme is actually successful. So, can you clarify the
mathematics that is applied with regard to this programme, so
that we are all on the same page? I hope this is not considered
as grandstanding.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon Hlengwa, as indicated, there are various problems bedeviling
this particular programme. That is why, even now, we are in the
process of developing a new model to address some of these
problems. I must indicate that it is not only human beings, but
the accountability on procured assets is also a major problem in
this programme. So, truly speaking, this problem will continue
until we have a model that will ensure that we get appropriate
accountability from our implementing agents, that we monitor the
procurement process and get proper reports about the employment
patterns in this programme.
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Remember, the payments system of this programme has not been
outsourced. We are still handling that and we do that, of
course, as guided by prescripts of our financial management
system. So, it does not happen that we end up paying one person
double. No. The fact of the matter is that, through that payment
system, we are able to account on head counts as employed at the
local level. Thank you very much.
Question 13:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the reply to the
question is as follows: In terms of section 38 of the Public
Finance Management Act, an accounting officer of a department
must take effective and appropriate disciplinary steps against
an employee who contravenes or fails to comply with the
provisions of the Public Finance Management Act or who
undermines the financial management and internal control system
of the department.
Furthermore, section 84 states that a charge of financial
misconduct must be investigated, heard and disposed of. As per
the relevant section of the Public Finance Management Act,
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instituting disciplinary processes relating to misconduct
includes the relegation of duty by employees, including failure
to pay suppliers on time is the responsibility of accounting
officers and executive authorities of relevant departments.
The Public Service Commission’s 2013-14 report on financial
misconduct shows that, of the 754 cases reported by national and
provincial departments, employees were found guilty of
committing financial misconduct and sanctions were imposed in
638 cases. In 172 of these — which is 27% of the cases — a
sanction of final written warning was imposed. This was the most
common sanction. This was followed by the sanction of discharge
which was imposed in 145 cases — 22,7% of cases — and then by
the written warning which was imposed in 94 of the cases — which
is 14,7% of the cases. Thank you.
Mr S C MOTAU: Thank you, Minister. It is encouraging to see that
some action is being taken because one of the big issues that we
had is that there are no consequences for people for transgress.
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However, I’d like to draw attention to something that you should
already know by now, and that is that the Department of
Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation’s 30-days’ payment unit has
identified what they describe as fear of victimisation by
department officials as a major reason prejudiced service
providers do not complain to the Department of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation about not being paid on time. So the
number that you quote could be higher if that were not the case.
So the question is, what steps have the Department of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation and the affected departments taken to
stop such intimidation? This is absolutely important since the
Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has declared,
as you have indicated, that failure to pay service providers
within 30 days is regarded as very serious misconduct. Thank
you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I think the fear is not from
government departments; it is suppliers. That is why we have
izimbizo time to time. The last imbizo that we had was
specifically on the 30-day payment was in Ekhurleni with the
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Major of Ekhurleni. At that imbizo we encouraged many small and
medium enterprises not to fear unscrupulous government
officials, and invited them to report such things so that we can
uproot this malaise within the public service.
At that imbizo we heard many gruelling stories about small
companies actually closing down because they were not paid on
time. Others indicated that they were offered bribes in order to
expedite the payment within 30 days.
It is for that reason that the special unit at the Department of
Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation which include the National
Treasury, the Public Service and other department play a very
critical role in ensuring that companies are paid on time. Not
paying on time is really a counter-revolutionary programme that
actually destabilises the mushrooming of small businesses in our
country. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Minister, last year, on 7 September, you made a
statement in the House in which you made a long list of
commitments around the issue of the 30 day payment period. One
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would therefore want to gauge whether the commitments you made
on that day have been successful in their implementation.
But most importantly, what we also want to gauge is whether the
invoices — and there has been some debate around this — meet
certain requirements and whether they comply with regulations.
Has an audit been done of those invoices that are continuously
outstanding? An audit will allow those businesses to be assisted
to meet the minimum basic requirements so that they are not
stuck in limbo because of bureaucracy and red tape. So, it’s not
enough to tell businesses that they can’t be paid; let’s resolve
the problem which hinders them from being paid. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I think there needs to be
clarity around not paying any invoice and not paying a valid
invoice for services that a service provider has rendered to
government. On Wednesday next week, the Department of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation has been invited by the portfolio
committee to submit a progress report. We will invite the hon
Hlengwa to be there so that he can get the up-to-date
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information on how far we have gone in trying to resolve this
problem. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The next follow-up is by
hon Dlamini of the EFF. [Interjections.] You are not the hon
Dlamini. [Interjections.] No, but please, hon members, you must
indicate if you want to take the question or not.
[Interjections.] No! Indicate that you want to take the followup question because that is what is reflected here.
Mr L G MOKOENA: No problem.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the follow up
question, hon member?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Minister, as per your report last year in
November, you said that there were some 30 000 nonpayments that
have been made to service providers that amounted to about
2,2 billion.
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The question I want to ask is, apart from the disciplinary
actions, what forensic measures have you taken to monitor and
track the qualitative impact that this is having on black
economic empower? If that has been done, what is that impact and
what is the remedy? I’m of the view that, until we understand
the impact in numbers, we will not take the issue seriously.
Thanks, Chair.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Well, in response to that
question from the hon member, let me emphasise that the
Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is not the
only department that monitors this. The Department of Small
Business and Development plays a bigger role in tracking some of
these matters because that department is the custodian of small,
medium and micro-sized enterprises, SMMEs.
So, when all this information that is based on research of the
affected people is collated, we will be able to understand the
real impact. That is why the earlier question about the fear of
the suppliers themselves is relevant because that fear also
stands in the way of getting accurate information. Sometimes,
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people are fearful of reprisals if they report things like this.
That is why, as hon members and as political parties, we need to
encourage people to come forward and not fear victimisation
because our aim is to ensure that we uproot these problems
because they stand in the way of the advancement of small
business in our country.
Ms C N MAJEKE: Hon Minister, you recently assured the nation
that your department in the Presidency will act decisively to
ensure that all government service providers are paid within 30
days as per the policy. In the Eastern Cape, the Department of
Education is still noncompliant with this progressive government
policy and, as such, many service providers are closing shop as
a result of not being paid by this department. What can you
promise those service providers your department will do to save
their businesses and allow them to contribute to the creation of
jobs and the growing of the economy of that poor province. Thank
you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, as I have said, I
think it is important that those service providers need to
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report not being paid. As I have said, government is leaving no
stone unturned in its attempt to expose those officials and also
charge them in terms of section 84 of the Public Finance
Management Act so that they are held accountable for the wrongs
they are doing.
So, as government, as we are going to be reporting next week, we
will also mention those departments that are not adhering to the
30 days payment cycle upon submission of a valid invoice. So we
sympathise with those service providers and I think justice will
have to run its course in the cases of those officials who are
responsible for this problem. Thank you.
Question 9:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thanks, Chairperson. The
education lab took place from the 07 September to the 02 October
2015; about 120 participants from various sectors and government
departments participated. The President launched this lab on the
02 October 2015. The launch was for the whole country not just
for provincial launches.
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The President is not launching the outcome of the lab in each
province. The approach that has been taken by the Department of
Basic Education is that all ICT related work that has been done
in this education sector is part of Phakisa in order to ensure
that there are no parallel plans or competing plans.
For the Free State province the following progress can be
indicated: On connectivity and hardware, as per government
gazette the telecommunications providers have supplied equipment
and connectivity to schools under the Universal Service and
Access Obligations projects, USAO; and this solution includes
for each school: A mobile trolley with devices such as 24
tablets for learners; three laptops for teachers; two printers;
one projector; one server; wireless excess point; and one eBeam.
The connectivity and hardware delivery status under USAO
project, also the MTN has provided in about 166 schools; Vodacom
in about 182 schools with a total of 348 schools that have been
provided. This is since Operation Phakisa education lab in 2015
which indicates that it is working.
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On training: Training has been provided in 2016 in partnership
with Intel as follows: The numbers of master teachers who have
been trained are 276 in 150 schools. Thank you.
Dr M B KHOZA: Thank you very much, Minister. Is there any plan
to replicate what has happened in the Free State to other
provinces because clearly it is the best practice; because if we
are going to have these kinds of partnerships between the
universities and the Department of Education in other provinces
it will surely contribute positively towards improving the
quality of education in South Africa. Thank you Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Most definitely because this
Operation Phakisa is actually a pilot project to test this
methodology that we have inherited from Malaysia - the big fast
results. From all the Operation Phakisa the indication is that
this methodology has shown that it helps government to work in
an integrated manner, not to work in silos.
So the example of Free State will be indicated in all other
provinces. I think it is one of the reasons why Free State
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achieved the highest matric results last year. It is an
indication that this project is actually having a very direct
impact in the quality of our students and also the results
thereof.
Mr S C MOTAU: Thank you Chair. Minister, a few years back
computers were installed at a very great cost, at various
schools in Gauteng to enhance the quality of learning;
regrettably the network soon became known as and I quote,
―Gauteng offline‖, as it was played by frequent downtimes at a
very high cost.
This cost Gauteng millions of rand and there was quite a huge
hue and cry about fruitless and wasteful expenditure. The
frustration, disappointment and anger among both learners and
teachers cannot be quantified. What steps are being taken to
ensure that the Free State ICT education lab project does not
suffer a similar fate?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Well, I’m not familiar with all
the details you are indicating about some of the negative aspect
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of theft and some of the subjective factors of the down off
lines; but I can assure you that the Department of Education is
working day and night to ensure that this programme succeed as
it is succeeding in the Free State. Thank you.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Thank you Chairperson. You know Minister, it is
all well and good to try to put these ICT labs and all these
issues; but for the young people of Mdeni Senior Secondary
school in Alice in the Eastern Cape, this is a farfetched dream.
Those kids has to resort to strike to go and risk their lives on
the road and block the road so that they can call on to the
Minister that we are lacking basic services; for just a
building. So what is this government doing rather than to try to
bring these things that there is a suspicion of some fraudulent
activities that are happening within this project.
What are you doing just to deal with the basics, that there is
no child in this country that still studies under the tree? What
are you doing relating to those issues? Leave these ones that we
don’t understand.
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The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thanks. We never said that one
swallow make summer but I think as reflected in the budget of
the government, education has the big slice of our budget.
That’s the reflection of our deep commitment to deal with all
the problems including those issues that you are raising from
the Eastern Cape. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Thanks hon Chair. Hon Minister, the success of any
ICT programme on top of the issue of accesses, the issue of
costs. So hon Minister, how far has the government gone in
dealing with the high costs of data and the high costs of
communication, which all these innovative ideas about the ICT
and so on, become a white elephant if our people are unable to
access them.
So we really need some report back in terms of the steps being
taken in the fight against high communication costs. South
Africa ranks amongst the highest cost to communicate in the
world; and yet we expect our people to embrace the technological
advances that are available when they become a burden because
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they cannot access them, because of the costs and the high
levels of inequality.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Hlengwa, I think we need to
invite Minister Cwele to indicate the roll-out plan of South
African Telecoms in South Africa to deal with those problems;
and as highlighted by the budget of the Minister of Finance,
there are billions of Rands that have been added to the
Department of Telecommunications to deal with this issue so that
we can be able to ensure that we bring down the costs of
telephony in our country. Thank you.
Question 10:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House
Chairperson, in reply to the question asked by the hon Lesoma,
the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA,
currently utilises systems, technological facilities from
various departments.
Firstly, is the public servants verification system which is
owned by the Department of Public Service and Administration, we
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also use the eDisclosure System owned by the department but also
jointly operated with the Public Service Commission. We also use
information coming out of the Companies and Intellectual
Properties Commission system, which is owned by the Department
of Trade and Industry, DTI, the Deeds Registration System owned
by the Department of Land Affairs and also the Electronic
National Administration Traffic Information System, eNaTIS,
owned by the National Department Of Transport and the Central
Supplier Database provided for the Department of Finance, the
Treasury.
We use the information that comes out of eDisclosure and
juxtapose and cross-reference that with information that exists
in these other systems. So we are able to determine with service
level agreements signed with various departments or agencies for
us to be able to get through to that information so that we can
be able to cross-reference information to ensure that public
servants are not doing business with government. Thank you.
Ms R M M LESOMA: House Chairperson, thank you Deputy Minister
for your response. My follow up question will be – with the
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appreciation of what you have just said - is that, is there any
intention or recourse for those ones who are found wanting in
terms of doing business because they short-change the intended
radical economic transformation as it were.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House
Chairperson, we use this information for purposes of assisting
law enforcement agencies to investigate on some of these
matters. However, what we also looking at is a possibility of
being proactive in the way that we do things by finding ways as
to whether or not we couldn’t look at ensuring that the systems
in themselves are able to red-flag certain ID numbers that
correspond with those who have persal numbers within the public
service. Thank you.
Mr S C MNCWABE: House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, in addition
to the department’s existing strategy and efforts to ensure
compliance with the prohibition of civil servants doing business
with the state, will your department consider making lifestyle
audit mandatory for all senior civil servants tasked with
procurement at all three levels of government? Thank you.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House
Chairperson, the President had made it very clear that that is a
process that we need to be looking into. The lifestyle audit for
all civil servants is gong to be done, but it’s just a matter of
ensuring that we put that in place. Thank you.
Ms D VAN DER WALT: House Chairperson, through you, Deputy
Minister, after years of public servants being prohibited from
doing business with the state, how many servants were indeed
blacklisted? If none, why not?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon
Van der Walt, I don’t have that information of hand. However, I
do know that at municipal level together with the Treasury they
do that. And I can also say that in departments both at
provincial level and at national level that does happen. In
terms of figures and numbers, that’s what I do not have right
now. Thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, Deputy Minister, I wanted
also to ask whether working with the other departments like the
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Department of Police, are there any cases that have been dealt
with? I have just heard now that you don’t have some statistics
readily available, but if you knew that there are cases that
have been dealt with as a way of mitigating the problem.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: House
Chairperson, I know there are proclamations that have been
signed by the President for the Special Investigation Unit, SIU,
to investigate. I know that the police are investigating certain
cases but as you rightfully say, I do not have the figures. I
will provide those figures to the portfolio committee and you
will be able to get that information from there. But there are
investigations underway.
Question 12:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chair, let me thank hon Bara. In an endeavour to curb
initiation deaths and injuries, traditional leaders are required
to ensure that there is a team that monitors initiation schools
in theirhis or her areas of jurisdiction. Also they are required
to ensure that all potential initiates have been pre-screened
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before attending the initiation school. They are also required
to ensure that each and every potential initiate has been
properly registered with the headman or headwoman of the area in
which the person resides; and also that the family of the child
intending to attend the initiation is aware. They should alsoo
ensure that all the schools in the area of inkosi are registered
and meet all the criteria.
There must also be a medical doctor on standby should the need
arise for the treatment of an initiate. Water for drinking and
bathing should be adequately supplied for hygiene purposes. They
must ensure that the initiates with chronic illness take their
medication as prescribed and that there is shelter that is
habitable for the initiates. The initiation monitoring task team
in each province reports to the headmen or headwomen and inkosi
on a daily basis and interventions are made to save lives,
should it be so required. This provision is applicable to all
our initiation schools which are legally recognised. Thank you
very much.
IsiXhosa:
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Mnu M R BARA: Ewe, enkosi kakhulu Sihlalo weNdlu. Mphathiswa uya
kuvumelana nam ukuba ...
English:
... there is still a lot that needs to be done. For example,
between 2014 and 2016 about 199 deaths were recorded in the
Eastern Cape alone. That means something still has to be done.
Will the Minister consider to fast-tracking the introduction of
the Customary Initiation Bill to ensure that we curb the
unnecessary deaths of our young men? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Yes, indeed hon Bara, I fully concur with you. The problem is
quite severe in the Eastern Cape province but as you are aware,
as a department, working together with provinces, we have
mechanisms in place to monitor the traditional leaders discharge
theirof responsibilities by traditional leaders, more especially
those who are conducting the practice officially.
The policy on initiation has been introduced and it went through
the Cabinet; and I must promise that before the end of this term
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of Parliament, we will have definitely dealt definitely with the
introduction of the Customary Initiation Bill. This is something
that is definitely going to happen definitely as provided for in
the policy that has been approved by the Cabinet. Thank you.
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Minister, would you not agree with me
that the time for cultural traditions which may result in the
loss of life or the physical, emotional and mental trauma to
initiates caused by unsafe and unsupervised practices is over?
Why can’t this department together with the Department of Health
have male nurses whowhich conduct initiation circumcisions?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
In deed, it has been a process that the department has engaged
with of integrating the conventional way of dealing with these
important ritesrights with the modern way of doing this. As a
results, the department is currently allocating, currently not
less than R20 million just for the services provided by medical
doctors or surgeons in those provinces to initiates; and these
surgeons are agreed upon with traditional leaders in all our
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provinces where such practicses are allowed. In deed, we are
working towards addressing some of theseis mishappenings. Thank
you very much.
Ms B MALULEKA: Hon House Chair, Minister we acknowledge the
measures and plans put in place to curb initiates’ deaths and
injuries. However, illegal schools are continuing to be opened.
We would like to know how you do plan to work with traditional
leaders to stop this; and what punishment is to be metered to
those people who are opening these illegal initiation schools.
Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Currently, working together with our law enforcement agencies
and traditional leaders, we are clamping down on the prevalence
of illegal initiation schools. However, I must indicate that it
has been a bit of a problem to give effect to the provision of
the law because the Customary Initiation Bill or maybe the
provisions that are currently there in the legislation do not
accord us much power to cover the whole area. That is why we are
expediting the process of ensuring that this Bill is processed
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expeditiously but truly speaking, this is one problem that we
are still tackling with. We hope that with the introduction of
this Bill and its ultimate enactment, we will be more empowered
to take drastic measures against those who are practising these
important rites illegally. Thank you, very much, Chair.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, as the NFP we subscribe to
the traditional and religious practices. Hon Minister, some of
our people have been the victims of unhealthy, unsafe and
reckless initiation processes with catastrophic consequences.
Would you consider stringent action including criminal
prosecution if necessary to prevent this unlawful practice?
Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
As indicated earlier on, each province currently has a
monitoring team that is composed of different stakeholders and
these stakeholders range from the Department of Health, and SA
Police Services and others. These monitoring structures are led
by provincial houses of traditional leaders. Each traditional
leader, where there is an initiation school, has a village
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monitoring team led by a village headman. Where a village is led
by headwoman, a member of the traditional council is appointed
to lead the monitoring team. So, it is easy to monitor what is
happening in those schools through these structural
arrangements. Thank you, House Chair.
Question 18:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you once more, hon House Chair. Yes hon member, I must
indicate that the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, is the
competent authority that deals with prosecutions in terms of the
prevention and combating of corrupt activities, and you know
this is provided for by Act 12 of 2004, as amended.
According to information received from the NPA, a total of
18 municipal officials and two elected public representatives —
that’s your councillors — have been prosecuted in terms of the
Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, as amended.
Central to the back to basics approach is a zero-tolerance
approach to fraud and corruption in municipalities. The
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department will continue to collaborate with law enforcement
agencies and key stakeholders to ensure that the cases of
corruption and related offences in municipalities are finalised
as speedily as possible.
Mr K J MILEHAM: Thank you, House Chair. I think the key word in
the Minister’s response was collaborate because it seems to me
that you collaborate more with those who are perpetrators of
corruption than the justice and law and order people who are
there to prevent it.
So Minister, is it fair to say to you then that you have no real
commitment? You have only prosecuted 18 officials and two
councillors. We know of many, many more cases of corruption. Is
it fair to say that as government you have no real commitment to
eradicate corruption at a municipal level?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon House Chair, our commitment to fighting corruption is there
for everyone to see. I must indicate that through the
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development of our corruption combating systems we have
unearthed a lot of corrupt activities.
As I have said, as a sphere or maybe as a department, we work in
collaboration with other law enforcement agencies and I think
it’s important for hon Mileham to understand that corruption is
a problem that we must all deal with collaboratively because
it’s not a party-aligned aspect.
As you are aware, even here in the Western Cape there are cases
of corruption that have been unearthed and they are being
investigated as we speak. The recent case being ... I mean, the
scandal of R28 million which has been exposed ... which was used
by a DA-led municipality to sponsor a soccer tournament.
So the system is exposing corruption and it would really be
unfortunate for you to stick a political tag to corruption
because it is a problem that is facing all of us across the
political line. So, we need to fight it collaboratively. Thank
you very much.
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Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, the
general trend in respect of officials found guilty of corrupt
activities seems to be one of redeployment rather than
prosecution and termination of government employment.
Is this kind of protection and redeployment offered because such
officials loot state monies on behalf of the ruling party? What
other reasons could there be for redeployment, rather than
prosecution?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Yes, we had such a problem in the past but there is a system
that has been introduced. I think it’s managed by the Department
of Public Service and Administration. That system allows us to
blacklist some of these corrupt officials just to avoid that
trend because it was very prevalent in the past. I think that by
blacklisting such people it accords us an opportunity to know
who these people are and it obviously makes us aware that they
should not be assigned to other serious or strategic
responsibilities in future. So I think that system is very
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helpful at blacklisting such people and I also think we should
all adhere to the provision of that system. Thank you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, I
must agree with you. Corruption is rife and it appears in all
parts of the country.
Hon Minister, when I say corruption is rife I want to
particularly specify the Knysna Municipality where people are
shouting and screaming all the time, and yet nothing is
happening. Minister, let me also add the R113 million corruption
tender that was awarded by the Western Cape government and the
R70 million by the right-hand man of the Premier Helen Zille.
Can you please tell us whether you are investigating this? If
not, when will you investigate it and when can we hear about
this corruption that is taking place? [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order. House
Chairperson, in terms of Rule 92(3)(a), is it correct for a
party that has no representation whatsoever at local government
level to ask Questions about local government? [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, that is not a point
of order as you yourself know hon Steenhuisen.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Indeed House Chair, corruption is a problem that we must deal
with and as some of the recent findings has exposed, this is not
only something that is confined to the public sector. Even in
the private sector we have seen collusion that was conducted by
construction companies. Just recently we have seen how Bankorp
robbed us of an opportunity of having money that was supposed to
be meant for development. Corruption is in the banking system.
We have seen the exposure of banks manipulating the exchange
rates. So it needs all of us to work together. Corruption is
everywhere. Corruption is in the EFF. We have seen how they are
money-laundering. They are money-launder ... what is this ... a
quick-fix scheme of ... quick money-making scheme called OnPoint. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order. I think this boy must stop
... sickness of Guptas ... and come here to corrupt ... to speak
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of corruption of the EFF. What corruption are you talking about
... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member?
Ms R M LESOMA: Point of order, Chair. Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, no, no, no ...
Ms R M LESOMA: He has ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just wait.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: He must not take us for granted, wena man. You
are deployed by the Guptas ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member? Hon member,
take your seat please. Hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You’re ... [Inaudible.] ... direct product of
the Guptas ... [Inaudible.] ...of corruption for seven days, and
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you are talking about corruption of the EFF. What do you know
about that, wena? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, please
take your seat. If you do not take your seat I will switch off
your microphone. Hon members, hon members, can we just calm down
please. Let us maintain the decorum of the House by dealing with
the issues at hand. Right? Let us also not fall foul of the very
same rules that all of us have adopted and subscribed to, and
from time to time also quote in this House. So, let’s maintain
the decorum. Hon Minister, you have answered the Question. Is
there anything new you want to add?
Mr M A DIRKS: On a point of order, Chair. On a point of order,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
I was still on the platform.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No hon member, no.
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Mr M A DIRKS: On a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I have not recognised
you, hon member.
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I will first recognise
the Whip of the ANC on my right. Hon member?
Ms R M LESOMA: Hon House Chair, the hon Shivambu called the hon
Minister a boy and he must withdraw it immediately.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, did you
call the hon Minister a boy?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, I did call Van Rooyen a boy
because he’s a small boy of the Guptas who was sent to commit
corruption here ... [Inaudible.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you
please withdraw that statement?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We withdraw ... {Inaudible.] ... but he’s a
small boy of the Guptas.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, just
withdraw the remark unconditionally.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I withdraw but ... [Inaudible.] ... again ...
just for this ... [Inaudible.] ... but he’s a small boy.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member.
Hon member, take your seat now. Take your seat, hon member. Hon
Minister?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Thank you House Chair. House Chair ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, let me
just take the other point of order. Why are you rising, hon
member?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, the hon Minister casts aspersions on the
EFF by saying that they are corrupt here ... with moneylaundering. Can he prove that here with a substantive motion or
withdraw that statement? Can you ask him to withdraw please?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, if you read
the rules they refer to a specific member and not to a political
party. We have heard, even through the course of this afternoon,
in the follow up Questions there’s reference made to different
political parties and that is not out of order. However, if
reference is made to a specific member of the House then we will
request it to be substantiated in a substantive ...
Mr L G MOKOENA: Yes, if he is involved in money-laundering ...
[Inaudible.] ... then he must ... [Inaudible.] ... with himself.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No hon member, take your
seat now. Take your seat. Hon member, take your seat. I have
ruled on the matter. Hon Minister, will you just take your seat.
There is another ANC member at the back who wants to raise a
point of order.
Mr M A DIRKS: Chairperson, you must be fair in the way that you
... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, what is the
point of order and in terms of which rule?
Mr M A DIRKS: When I stood up on a point of order you said you
do not recognise me, yet you allow the EFF ... [Inaudible.] ...
and you allow him to speak. [Inaudible.] ... treat us fairly ...
[Inaudible.] Treat us fairly!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. Hon
member, take your seat. Take your seat, hon member. Take your
seat. Take your seat. Your Whip from the ANC asked for a point
of order even before you got up and demanded a point of order. I
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recognised the Whip of the ANC and the point of order was
effectively dealt with. The hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chair, let me confirm that our corruption-busting system
as a country is regarded as one of the best systems in the
world. It’s through this system that we are able to expose a lot
of corrupt activities. Members, that is why I am urging that we
work together to support these systems because these are the
very same systems that exposed the socalled commander in chief
when he was involved in tax evasion practices. [Interjections.]
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member? Hon member?
Ms E N LOUW: On a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising, hon
member?
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Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, I am rising on the point that he
raised regarding the commander in chief. Can you quieten them?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue hon member.
Ms E N LOUW: Thank you, Chair. If he has anything ... the courts
have proven that the commander in chief did not avoid his taxes.
He pays his taxes and the commander in chief is a member of this
House and he enjoys the same protection as each member.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member.
Ms E N LOUW: So that boy of the Guptas mustn’t ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member. You see,
you raise a point of order and what you say on the one hand
applies and then you break the same rule in the same sentence.
Now that is not correct. I will ask you to withdraw the
statement. However Minister, before the statement is withdrawn,
the same applies. If we have allegations that we make against
any member of this House it must be done in the form of a
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substantive motion and that motion must be tabled with the NA
staff without further delay. However, hon member, you must
withdraw the statement that you made. [Interjections.] No, no, I
am asking the hon member to withdraw the statement that she
made. The hon member knows what she said.
Ms E N LOUW: The hon Minister must withdraw as well. I withdraw
that’s he’s a boy of the Guptas.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No hon member, I am
asking you to withdraw what you are saying.
Ms E N LOUW: That he’s a boy of the Guptas? I withdraw saying
that he’s a boy of the Guptas ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The statement has now
... Take your seat now, hon member. Yes, hon member?
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, the hon guzupta there ... the hon zupta
there, if he’s referring to his ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, order!
Mr L G MOKOENA: Can I be protected?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Continue.
Mr L G MOKOENA: If he’s referring to his commander in chief with
whom he’s ... [Inaudible.] ... collusion and corruption then he
must be clear about that. There is no corruption in this
organisation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that’s not a
point of order. Take your seat please. I’m switching off your
microphone now. That’s not a point of order. That’s not a point
of order.
Mr L G MOKOENA: There’s no corruption here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I’ve ruled on the
matter, that whoever wants to make allegations against another
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member of this House must do so by means of a substantive
motion. Being consistent with rulings in this regard, I
immediately stopped that hon Minister, like I stopped other
members and told them that they should do that. Right? That’s
why I did not allow the Minister to continue along the line that
he was pursuing. That is the ruling. Hon Shivambu?
An HON MEMBER: But he must withdraw.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, can you please tell this Mr who
spent seven nights and seven days ... [Inaudible.] ...
corruption in the Gupta house, to withdraw what he said about
the commander in chief of the EFF. Please instruct him to
withdraw that or else we are going to attend to him.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member? No, hon
member. Take your seat, hon member. Take your seat, hon member.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: He’s a small boy. We will attend to him.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I’ve ruled, I’ve ruled
... Can you withdraw the statement? You see hon member, you
withdraw the statement then you repeat it again ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... and what we are
doing now is to delay hon members the right which members of
this House have to ask Questions. There is still a number of
Questions that we must deal with.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But can he please withdraw? Why are our members
... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You see hon Shivambu,
you cannot ask another member to withdraw and in the same vein
you break the rule yourself.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I withdraw then. Tell him to withdraw as well.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You have withdrawn; now
take your seat, hon member.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Tell him to withdraw.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat. I’ve
made a ruling in this regard. I’ve made a ruling in this regard
and I’m now going to the next follow up Question which will be
asked ... [Interjections.] Yes, the ruling has been made whether
you like it or not.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Chairperson? Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member?
Mr M M DLAMINI: Yes, can you ask that gentleman to withdraw. We
are asking nicely, because ... [Inaudible.] ... attend to that
thing. We are not scared of him. We will attend to him. We are
not scared of him. We are still asking nicely. We are not scared
of that one. That one! He must be careful.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, take your
seat. Hon member, take your seat. I have ruled on the matter.
Take your seat now please. Take your seat. Thank you, hon
member. Take your seat.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Order Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I have dealt with this
point of order, hon members.
Ms H O HLOPHE: No, order Chair. I have a right to ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I have dealt with this
point of order.
Ms H O HLOPHE: How do you know what I want to say?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising hon
member and in terms of which rule?
Ms H O HLOPHE: On a point of order in terms of Rule 92.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Rule 92 says what? It’s
just you rising on a point of order. What specifically?
Ms H O HLOPHE: Chair, this man must withdraw. The commander in
chief, our commander in chief, is a member of this House ...
[Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I’ve made a
ruling in this regard. Please take your seat. I’m switching off
your microphone now. Hon member, I’ve dealt with the point of
order and I now want to get to the hon Maluleke who will ask the
next follow up Question.
An HON MEMBER: ... [Inaudible.] ... we will find you outside.
An HON MEMBER: Small boy. [Interjections.]
Ms B J MALULEKE: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, does pour
department have a consequence management mechanism ...
An HON MEMBER: No they don’t ...
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Ms B J MALULEKE: ... on fraud and corruption, and the necessary
internal capacity to gather information that will enable the NPA
to prosecute the culprits? [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Gupta boy!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon Chair, of course the reality of the matter is that the
department is not capacitated to investigate. That’s why we take
a collaborative approach to work with other law enforcement
agencies. I must indicate that, besides working with the NPA, we
are also contemplating extending our co-operation in a more
formal way with other enforcement agencies like your Public
Protector’s office and other law enforcement agencies. Thank you
very much.
Question 14:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the answer to the
question is, the Department of Planning Monitoring and
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Evaluation and Statistic SA report to the same Ministry and they
work collaboratively to institutionalise planning across
government and in monitoring progress towards the National
Development Plan, NDP, 2030, which is being implemented through
the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF.
In its assessment of periodic MTSF progress reports for all the
14 outcomes, the Department of Planning Monitoring and
Evaluation utilises Statistic SA data for triangulation purposes
and also to assess the quality, accuracy and the
comprehensiveness of the information that is being provided by
government departments. The range of Statistic SA products
utilised by the Department of Planning Monitoring and Evaluation
include official statistics, annual surveys such as the general
household survey, quarterly survey such as the quarterly labour
force survey and administrative data such as births and deaths.
Thank you.
Mr S C MOTAU: Chair and Minister, indeed, that is the point we
want to make, that while we have Statistic SA which is really a
highly reputable organisation and institution in this country,
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the frustration that we get with the Statistician-General
reports is that this wealth of valuable information is hardly
ever filtered down to the various line functions. Throughout
this afternoon, Minister, you have been referring to line
function and that is where it is supposed to be.
The question is this: What are you prepared to do to make sure
this valuable information that the Statistic SA generates from
time to time is filtered down and utilised by the line functions
so that we can get the kind of outputs that we require? I’ll
give you an example. The Auditor-General says we produce all
these good reports but it is like grabbling with a pig in a mud
bath because the line function departments do not do that and
the Statistician–General seems to be in a similar position. Can
you review their powers to make sure that what they come up with
is implemented at the line departments? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, I just want to emphasise
the point that even though Statistic SA reports to the Ministry
of the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation but it
operates as independent entity in terms of the combination of
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the data and its dissemination so that the information that is
there can be verified even by experts. However, the point I
wanted to underscore is that Statistics SA works collaboratively
with all government departments in order to ensure that the data
that they have can be utilised by all government departments.
You will realise that even when they report to the portfolio
committee that is the point that they always emphasise. We, as
government, are working in that direction with one purpose of
having the evidence-based assessment of all the programmes that
we are doing as a department. Thank you.
Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Hon Minister, what is your assessment
of the quality accuracy and comprehensiveness of information
provided by departments for measuring progress against the 14
outcomes of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework? Thank you,
Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, as I highlighted in
the reply is that we utilise the information Statistic SA
produces in order to assess the quality of the information that
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comes from government departments. That is what we do on a daily
basis to ensure that that entity is being effectively and
efficiently utilised in order to ensure that we make that
evaluation of all the programmes that government is doing.
Therefore, to answer the question directly, yes, we utilise the
information and the data from Statistic SA to perform as a
government.
Ms H O HLOPHE: One of the major stumbling blocks in apprehending
criminals quicker is the lack of co-ordination and information
sharing between the Department of Home Affairs and the Criminal
Justice System. Minister, have you engaged your colleagues at
Home Affairs and in the SA Police Services to ensure that they
co-ordinate themselves better for the interest of justice in
this country?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: The two departments work
collaboratively under the Justice Crime Prevention and Security
Cluster, JCPS, that is chaired by the Minister of Defence and
Military Veterans. Even over the past weekends, they had a press
conference indicating the progress that is being made or lack of
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it in terms of fighting crime and corruption. Therefore, to
answer directly, all government departments including Home
Affairs, work together not in a silo, but in a co-ordinated
manner under the JCPS Cluster that is chaired by the Minister of
Defence and Military Veterans.
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Makhulukhulu, Bhungane, is it not possible for
the Statistic SA to reconcile the vocation they have with the
information that is being kept by the traditional leaders,
because I believe those people are the ones who know exactly
what is happening in their villages? Is that thing possible,
Bhungane? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: I am sure Statistic SA, being a
government entity, can be able to work with every sector of
South African society including the institution of traditional
leadership. Thank you.
Question 22:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chair, I must indicate that when we try to collate
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information on this matter, we established that there was no
contractor appointed and Intsika Yethu local municipality has an
internal construction team responsible for the continuous
maintenance of roads. We also established that the municipality
has taken it upon itself to prioritise internal road access and
crossings.
The project in question was initiated in 2006 and not 2012. The
scope of work was as follows: firstly, on the project dealing
with the refurbishment of existing bridge, the budget allocated
to that was R175 000 and the project was completed as planned;
secondly, the regravelling of 1,5 km road and the total project
budget was R275 000 and the report confirms that this project
was also completed as planned. The total project value of the
two projects combined R450 000. All these were conducted through
own funding and done through in-house maintenance team. The
remaining 4,5 km of the road was not part of the project plan.
Municipality prioritised the above critical refurbishment in
line with the availability of the budget.
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Other wards had to be prioritised with regards to other basic
services with the same limited budget. However, the municipality
has the remaining part of the road as part of its Integrated
Development Planning, IDP, project list waiting funding in the
next MTEF. It should be noted that this municipality is
predominantly rural and the revenue base is almost nonexistent.
Despite this, I must commend the municipality for trying by all
means to ensure a fair distribution of the available budget to
all the wards. Thank you.
Mr Z R XALISA: This Gupta Minister is talking nonsense.
[Interjections.] He is just waffling. The follow up question is:
the contractor appointed ... [Interjections.]
Ms LESOMA: House Chairperson, I request the hon member to
withdraw. There is no Gupta hon Minister in this House. Thank
you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you
just withdraw the statement you made?
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Mr Z R XALISA: ... he is a Gupta Minister. He was appointed by
the Guptas.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please
withdraw the statement?
Mr Z R XALISA: I withdraw. But it is the truth.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you withdraw
the statement ... [Inaudible.]
Mr Z R XALISA: I withdraw. But he is speaking nonsense.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, let us not
... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chairperson, on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, will you
take your seat? Take your seat. I am addressing the House.
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But I am on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am not recognising
your point of order. I will come ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please, recognise me on a point of order ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... back when I deal
with this matter. Take your seat, please?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... but you must recognise me immediately you
are done with that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat. Hon
member, let us observe the Rules of the House, which is quite
clear ... [Interjections.]
Mr Z R XALISA: Which rule, sir?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... that we should not
use offensive languages against one another. When you withdraw a
remark that you have made, don’t continue and mention but this
and but that, because then it means you have not withdrawn the
remark unconditionally, which is demanded by the Rules. So
please, hon member, ask your follow up question ...
[Interjections.]
Mr Z R XALISA: The microphone is off.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... to the hon Minister,
so that we can get a reply from the hon Minister. Let’s respect
one another, please.
Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order, House Chair! I am rising on
the second aspect of the utterances of the member. He said the
Minister speaks nonsense. In the previous rulings, it was ruled
that nonsense is unparliamentary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You see, hon members ...
[Interjections.] ... I will recognise you now, hon member. When
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it comes to the use of unparliamentary language, these previous
rulings that you correctly referred to, has subsequently been
allowed in this House. So, there is no consistency with the
ruling of specific words and that is why I made the request that
we maintain the decorum of the House and refer to each other in
a respectable manner. Can we please continue to do that? The hon
Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chair, it is a matter of fact that the
word nonsense can be utilised in this House. So, there is
nothing wrong with commissar Xalisa saying ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... that Mr Van Rooyen is speaking nonsense ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please, take
your seat ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... because he is talking absolutely nonsense.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please, take
your seat. I have dealt with the matter; I have made the ruling
and gave the context under which I give this ruling. Ask your
question, hon member!
Mr Z R XALISA: The contractor appointed in 2012 never finished
the road construction. The road is still incomplete as we speak.
What are the reasons for this and why is there no one held
accountable? Why was there no corruption case opened against the
contractor and those who awarded the tender?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chair, as indicated, the report that we have received from
our back to basics team on the ground indicates that, unlike
other incomplete projects that we are dealing with in other
provinces, this one has been completed, not unless the member is
referring to a different project. This particular question
reminds me of the backlog that we are dealing with in Limpopo as
a result of one money making scheme called ―On point‖. We are
still dealing with the problem of incomplete roads in Limpopo. A
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quick money making scheme was given a contract to improve ...
[Interjections.]
Mr Z R XALISA: On a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member, what is
the point of order?
Mr Z R XALISA: The Gupta Minister isn’t answering my question.
He is just waffling.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, please, take
your seat. The hon Mthethwa!
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Since you have already alluded in your response
that this municipality is predominantly rural and its revenue
base is very poor, what assistance is the department giving to
assist such municipality to ensure that they finish their
projects in time?
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Hon Mthethwa, there is a plethora of grants we are utilising to
intervene in such areas, like Municipal Infrastructure Grant,
MIG, and other grants that I have already cited in some of my
responses. Fortunately, the 4,5 km stretch of the gravel road
not yet regravelled has been included in the IDP of this
municipality. That simply suggests that as we allocate through
our grants, this is one area that might be considered for
further funding. So, we do assist municipalities through this
grant provision. Thank you very much.
Mr K J MILLEHAM: House Chairperson, projects like these
typically fall under project management units in the
municipalities. One of the things that we have seen in
municipalities across the country is that project management
units become dumping grounds for cadres and former councillors,
which then results in delays and cost overruns. So, my question
to the Minister is: what is he doing to ensure that qualified
people are appointed to project management units, that they are
capacitated, that major capital projects are completed
timeously, on budget and in compliance with the law?
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The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Through the co-operation that we have with National Treasury, we
have agreed on transversal contract provision, where we have
regional management contracts teams. These teams are meant to
assist with the management of projects because we have realised
that project management is a serious problem to most of the
incapacitated municipalities. So, these regional management
contracts teams will help us beef up project management units in
those specific municipalities. Hon Milleham, what I can tell you
is that most of these small municipalities don’t have the
capacity of establishing those project management units. That is
why these regional management contracts teams must come in and
assist those municipalities and we will be registering serious
progress in that regard. Thank you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House chair, could the Minister perhaps tell
us in this particular instance what is the cost implication as a
result of the delay, and what mechanisms do you have in place to
ensure that those who fail to deliver timeously do not do
business with the state either directly or indirectly in the
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future, and furthermore, what would you do to prevent the use of
outside consultants who are making a lot of money at the expense
of our people?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Maybe I should start with the last part of your question because
I didn’t get clearly the reference to the delay on the first
question. The reality of the matter is that as a result of the
lack of capacity, it is difficult for some of the municipalities
to keep skilled people that are required for specific
assignments. It becomes very expensive to keep them in their
payroll.
We cannot just dismiss consultants as if it’s a straight forward
phenomenon. No, we need to agree that we still need consultants
as we move forward because there are municipalities that can’t
absorb some of this expertise in their payroll for a long period
– it’s too expensive. We need to be very cautious that as we
rope in consultants, we don’t do that at the expense of
developing internal capacity of municipalities. In some cases we
should urge our municipalities to make sure that as they develop
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contracts, those contracts focus on how skills are transferred
the employees of the given municipalities. The reality of the
matter is that doing away with consultants should be agreed by
all as not a straight forward process, there are other
considerations that need to be brought on board.
On delays as you are all aware, contracts from one project to
the other provides for penalty clauses. So, when there are
delays, obviously those penalty clauses must kick in. Thank you
very much, House Chair.
Question 16:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chair, I apologise for the delay. By way of background,
let me indicate that payment of the once-off gratuity to
eligible nonreturning councillors after the 3 August 2016 local
government election could only be made after the Independent
Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers
published their recommendations in this regard.
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On 11 November 2016, the local government Minmec resolved that I
should finalise the payment model for the once-off gratuity.
After having considered the recommendations of the commission
and the resolutions taken at the Minmec meeting held on
2 September 2016, the commission published its recommendation in
this regard in Government Gazette No 40422. I finalised the
payment model on Tuesday, 16 November 2016, and it was only
thereafter that payments could be made to eligible recipients of
the once-off gratuity.
Various media statements, circulars, and email communiqués were
issues by the department, as well as by the Ministry, prior to
and after the finalisation of the payment model to provinces,
municipalities and, of course, the SA Local Government
Association.
From the outset, it must be noted that approximately
5 000 former nonreturning councillors were initially identified
as being eligible for receiving the gratuity. In making final
payments to the applicants, the following processes were
followed: receipt of applications from provinces; verification
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of the application form from the former councillor against the
database of nonreturning councillors received from the
Independent Electoral Commission, IEC; verification of banking
details of the applicant; in some instances, requests for
further supporting documentation from the applicants;
calculation of the gross gratuity that may be payable to the
applicant; requesting of a directive from Sars; calculation of
net gratuity to the applicant; and in instances where the
payments were rejected by financial institutions, further
engagement with the applicant had to take place.
As evidenced above, this was an intensive process requiring
compliance at various levels. By 2 March 2017, less than four
months after the finalisation of the payment model, an estimated
4 500 former councillors had been paid their gratuity. The
payments to the former councillors totalled R234 ... almost
R237 thousand ... million. [Interjections.] No, no! Sorry!
[Interjections.] I beg your pardon. The total amount was almost
R237 million, including payments made to Sars. [Interjections.]
I have to indicate that, in 2011 ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members!
Order, please! Let us give the Minister time to complete his
response. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Chairperson, is this what was supposed to be a
Minister of Finance, man?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member! Hon ... hon
member!
An HON MEMBER: Like this? No, no, no!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please take
your seat. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
I must indicate ...
Ms H O HLOPHE: That is why he lasted only a weekend!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please!
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Ms H O HLOPHE: Only one weekend as the Minister of Finance!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please
respect the House. Continue, hon Minister. Your time has almost
expired.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Of the 5 000 nonreturning councillors, it must be indicated that
approximately 560 former councillors still have to be paid – and
they will be paid before the end of March 2017. Thank you very
much. [Interjections.]
Dr M J FIGG: Chairperson, through you to the Minister: We
understand why you are obviously confused. [Laughter.] We are
also pleased to note that the long overdue amount has finally
been determined and some of it paid.
What is the total final amount that has been calculated? How
many councillors still need to be paid? [Interjections.] When
will the final payment be made once you have received all the
documentation? [Interjections.] Will this policy continue to the
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next local government election? Will any action be taken against
officials who cause hardship to the councillors by delaying the
determination of the gratuity? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Chairperson, no hardship has been caused by officials. In fact,
if anything, we should commend the team that has been working on
this matter. Those who have been following the processes in our
local government system will agree with me that, in 2011, it
took the administration almost two-and-a-half years to finalise
the payment of nonreturning councillors. Here we are. Within
four months of the determination of what should go to
nonreturning councillors, we stand at 560 councillors who should
still be paid. Truthfully, if anything should be done to those
officials, it is to commend them for the good work they have
done. [Applause.]
We also have to commend Sars. We have to commend Sars for coming
to the party and fast-tracking the processing and issuance of
tax directives. There was no way we were going to give effect to
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this gratuity payment without the tax directives. So, we need to
commend the officials, not think of punishing them. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The next question will
come from hon Majeke.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Chair, I will take the question on her behalf.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Filtane, your name is
there – next.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Chair, I think I can safely say that you can
take one of the two names off and give the opportunity to the
next one in line, in fairness. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright. Thank you.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Minister, the report that I got from the
councillors who benefited from this gratuity payment is that
there was a shortfall of a couple of thousand rand. It is not
complete for the three months, as was proudly announced. Are you
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in a position to explain that, or could it be, perhaps, that tax
reductions had not been factored in or expected? I appreciate
the fact that you say Sars played a crucial role. That is a
further feather in the cap of the Minister of Finance.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Chairperson, indeed, that might be one of the reasons why people
didn’t receive what they expected. However, at times, it has
become very difficult to calculate. It is just a gratuity. It is
a reward. It is not like your retirement savings where you know
how much has to come your way.
We are factoring in issues like tax directives, and it differs
from one person to another. Some people owe R50; others owe
R50 000. Others, I can tell you from the 2011 administration ...
I know that some of my colleagues then didn’t even receive a
cent out of this particular provision.
An important question was asked by a member. I am very sorry
that I couldn’t cover it. The question was on the sustainability
of this provision. The Independent Commission for the
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Remuneration of Public Office Bearers has issued its opinion on
the matter. The commission is very clear on their concern about
the sustainability of this provision because of the economic
conditions our country face.
The argument from our side and, I know, from the sector broadly
is that if it stops for councillors, it would definitely affect
all public representatives. Councillors should not be treated in
isolation from the broader sector of public representatives. So,
there is that particular recommendation made by the Independent
Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers. That
particular recommendation is currently being processed. Thank
you very much.
CONSIDERATION OF 2017 FISCAL FRAMEWORK AND REVENUE PROPOSALS AND
OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE THEREON
Mr Y I CARRIM: House Chair, the finance committee is done
together with the NCOP committee; the framework report is in our
ATC this morning. So, I will just deal with the quick overview –
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lastly, what I am saying is covered in that report. I will just
deal with some of the observations and the recommendations.
I want to start with section 5(1) of the Report, which I would
like to read verbatively:
As noted in the committee’s previous reports, the timelines
to finalise the Fiscal Framework and fulfil other aspects
of the Money Bills Act are far too onerous and undermine
the committee’s effective processing of the Budget and need
to be urgently reviewed. The committees have begun with
this process and will seek to effect appropriate amendments
to the Act by the third quarter of this year. It is
intended that this will be the last year in which the
Fiscal Framework Report is finalised in such haste. I hope
the Minister is listening.
In fact, this year, apart from the tax Bills, the amendments to
the Money Bills Act will be the main priority for the committee
– I hope the chief whips are going to support us in this regard.
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The majority of committees welcome government’s commitment to
radical economic transformation which it understands to be, as
defined by the President guided by the ANC’s. He said in Sona;
it’s a ―fundamental change in the structure, systems,
institutions and patterns of ownership, management and control
of the economy in favour of all South Africans, especially the
poor the majority of whom are African and female‖. So, there it
is. It is inclusive, but it recognises that certain classes and
certain strata will inevitably disproportionately benefit, and
so it should be, given the inequalities in our society.
The committee sees the key theme in the budget, the Minister,
presented – to use his words - as transformation for inclusive
growth. In his Budget Speech the Minister said: ―Our growth
challenge is intertwined with our transformation imperative. We
need to transform in order to grow, we need to grow in order to
transform. Without transformation, growth will reinforce
inequality, without growth, transformation will be distorted by
patronage.‖
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The committee broadly agrees with the National Treasury’s
approach to the interrelationship between growth and
transformation as part of radical economic transformation as set
out in the Minister’s Budget Statement and budget documents.
However, there seems to be a lack of understanding or agreement
with National Treasury’s approach to radical economic
transformation from important role-players in government, the
state and civil society. The committees strongly recommend that
National Treasury engages with the relevant role-players on this
approach.
The committees noted that the differences among stakeholders who
made submissions on the budget hearings this year are wider than
is usually the case and believe that it may reflect an
understandable polarisation in South African society given the
current economic and political climate. While some of the
differences may be inevitable, around class and our divided
society. The committee’s Parliament in general and other
relevant structures should seek to do more to engage more
effectively with a cross-section of stakeholders to secure, at
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least, a minimum degree of national consensus on the country’s
goals on economic growth, job creation and development.
The committee believes that in view of the slightly better
global and domestic circumstances identified by National
Treasury and others, the 2% growth rate set for 2018-19 can be
achieved. However, this will need the government to work
together to implement the necessary structural reforms; the
active implementation of the programmes being funded in the
Budget; and the vigorous oversight by Parliamentary committees,
among many other considerations. In other words, subjective
factors will be very important in reaching the growth target,
even if the 2% is below what the country needs.
The committees – in our case - are deeply concerned about the
decline in private sector investment. We know that investment
growth was 2,6% in 2015 as compared to 26% in 2006, and
government investment has replaced private investment in
conditions of declining government revenues.
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More over the committee recognises that work being done by the
National Treasury and government in this regard, but believes
that government needs to do more to induce business to invest.
The committees note the decreasing revenue from Corporate Income
Tax, CIT, as a percentage of total tax revenue over the past
five years, representing 17%.
However, we think that the private sector is not investing in
the South African economy. If business continues to abstain from
significantly investing in the economy, the committees recommend
that the National Treasury consider its reluctance to increase
Corporate Income Tax, CIT,
The committee is concerned obviously – like we all are
presumably - about the largest revenue underperformance in 18
years, projected at about R30,4 billion for 2016-17. The
committees note the standard considerations that the revenue
shortfall could be explained by lower growth than forecast,
lower wage increases which led to lower personal income taxes
being collected; and reduced imports leading to lower import
duty being collected.
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There has been a significant change in the tax buoyancy ratio
from 1,4% to 0,86%. Minister, as a former tax commissioner you
would be able to explain this much better than I, so I left that
to you if I may ask you on behalf of Parliament to explain the
technicalities but I must say that one of your department
officials - probably in the mid 30s - gave us such a nice
explanation. Such a nice explanation may be you can just quote
him.
We note the suggestions by some stakeholders that the revenue
shortfall and the uncharacteristic tax buoyancy may have been
partly due to calculated delays in processing VAT refunds in
2015-16 in order to claim success. There are also claims that
diesel refunds have been withheld. The committees also note the
National Treasury’s suggestion that the shortfall is also to be
explained by Sars underperformance and Sars public rejection of
this.
National Treasury and Sars need to provide a much more
comprehensive explanation for the reasons for the R30,4 billion
revenue shortfall; and importantly, what is being done to
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address this. This process will be taken further at the March
Quarterly Review Briefing that we have; in fact, it is set for
two weeks from now.
The committees welcomes the proposed National Treasury’s
improvements of tax administration and tax collection aimed at
clarifying the powers of the Minister to make regulations
prescribing the duties for those who administer the VAT and
Income Tax Acts and regulations governing the reporting of
information to ensure tax administration and tax collection of
Personal Income Tax, PIT, Corporate Income Tax, withholding
taxes and VAT.
The committee would like the Davis Tax Committee – if
appropriate - to provide a report within six months on progress
in respect of its investigation into tax administration,
including the implementation of the new operating model, at
Sars.
The committee note the support by some stakeholders of further
fuel increased in order to raise additional revenues for fiscal
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consolidation. However, the committee believes that the National
Treasury needs to take more account of the regressive impact
that an increase in fuel levies has on the poor and lower-income
earners who spend the most, obviously, on transport as a
percentage of their monthly income - 22% of South Africans use
mini-bus taxis to commute.
Given the polarised views on the issue of possible VAT
increases, the committee urges the Minister to consult widely on
any decision to increase VAT in the future and if VAT is to be
increased, to opt for a model that would protect the poor and
low-income earners far more than currently is the case. The
committees recommend that the Nation Treasury consider reviewing
the basket of VAT consumer goods that are zero-rated to be
relevant and appropriately targeted to cushion the poorer
people. Poor people also need to be educated about zero-rated
goods. National Treasury should explore the possibilities and
efficiencies of higher VAT on luxury goods.
Based on two public hearings we jointly held with the health
committees so far, it seems that there are differences within
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and across political parties on the sugar-sweetened beverages
tax, SSB tax. The committee believes that the many advantages of
an SSB tax, as it is called, has to be balanced, particularly
with the disadvantages of job losses and the consequences for
emerging African sugar cane growers. The committees welcome the
decision of National Treasury to process these and other related
SSB tax issues through Nedlac and strongly recommend that the
Nedlac process be finalised before the relevant clause of the
Bill is brought to Parliament.
The committee recommends that the National Treasury and Sars do
far more to reduce illicit financial flows, IFFs through
aggressive tax avoidance and evasion.
Just one figure - the global financial integrity report states
that South Africa suffered illicit financial outflows of over
R122 billion between 2003 and 2012. It noted that South Africa
is amongst the top ten countries in the world. We want far more
comprehensive report in our quarterly briefings both from Sars
and National Treasury as well as the next joint sitting of our
parliamentary committees meeting, and so on, next week.
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[Interjections.] The budget is very balanced and progressive ...
[Time expired.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, two weeks ago, the Minister of
Finance tabled the main Budget in this Parliament with both
hands tied behind his back and with very little political space,
fiscal space or policy space to give hope to the 8,9 million
people who do not have jobs, or who have given up looking for
jobs and who live without dignity, without independence and
without freedom in South Africa.
The Minister tabled the Fiscal Framework outlining government’s
revenue, spending and borrowing projections over the medium
term. This envisages economic growth recovering to 2,2%; revenue
of R1,66 trillion, or 30,1% of GDP; expenditure of
R1,81 trillion, or 32,7% of GDP; and most importantly, a budget
deficit of R145,8 billion, or 2,6% of GDP, by 2019-20. Whatever
the case, the central fiscal policy objective of government is
to stabilise net loan debt, which is projected to reach
R2,67 trillion, or 48,1% of GDP, in 2019-20.
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To illustrate the magnitude of the debt, consider the fact that
net loan debt of R2,67 trillion is the equivalent of a debt of –
wait for it - R47 000 per person in South Africa; or a debt of –
wait for it – R6,68 billion per Member of Parliament.
[Interjections.] It is staggering! Because of the debt mountain,
debt service costs are now the fastest growing expenditure item
on the Budget and are projected to reach R197,3 billion in 201920.
To illustrate the magnitude of debt service costs, consider
this. In three years’ time, we will spend more on debt service
costs than we will spend this year on Health – R170 billion – on
Defence, Police and Justice – R190 billion – on Higher Education
– R68,95 billion – and, most importantly, on Social Protection –
R164 billion. It is staggering!
The fact is, however, that government has a slow bleed and
simply cannot stabilise net loan debt. We were told in the main
Budget of 2016 that net loan debt was going to stabilise at
R2,19 trillion, or 46,2% of GDP, in 2017-18. Then we were told
in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement of 2016 that net loan
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debt was going to stabilise at R2,63 trillion, or at 47,9% of
GDP, in 2019-20. Now we are told in the main Budget of 2017 that
net loan debt is going to stabilise at 48,2% of GDP, but only in
2020-21. That is why we believe it is time that government
considers implementing a debt ceiling in South Africa, and we
will be making proposals in that regard, this year.
The root cause of the slow bleed is stagnant economic growth,
which is projected to average 1,83% between 2017 and 2019. It is
simply not enough to stabilise our public finances. Due to a
moderate recovery, the economic growth projection is 1,3% for
2017, up from 0,3% in 2016. However, this is insufficient to
reduce unemployment. The moderate economic recovery is not only
insufficient to reduce unemployment, it is also insufficient to
generate the required revenue, because, to borrow a phrase from
the former Minister of Finance, Nhlanhla Nene, ―without economic
growth, revenue will not increase. Without revenue growth,
expenditure cannot increase.‖
The Minister pencilled in revenue of R1,41 trillion, or 29,8% of
GDP, for 2017-18. However, because of lower-than-expected
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revenue collection due to stagnant economic growth and poor tax
administration, the Minister was forced to announce tax
proposals to raise an additional R28 billion in 2017-18.
Of course, what the Minister chose to emphasise was the
formation of a new super-tax bracket for personal income tax
payers with a taxable income of more than R1,5 million. This
will be taxed at a new marginal income tax rate of 45% to raise
an additional R4,4 billion in 2017-18. What the Minister chose
not to emphasise, however, was that an additional R12,1 billion
would be raised from personal income taxpayers as a result of
limited relief for fiscal drag; and an additional R3,2 billion
would be raised from the general fuel levy in 2017-18.
What this means is that whether you are rich and taxed directly
or whether you are poor and taxed indirectly, the Minister will
reach into your pockets and help himself to R28 billion to plug
the fiscal hole in 2017-18. That is why it is such a pity that
government seems to have abandoned the sale of nonstrategic
assets to raise revenue.
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The former Minister began the process of selling nonstrategic
assets and made a good start by selling government’s stake in
Vodacom. This raised R25,4 billion in 2015-16. The fact is that
substantial revenue could be raised by disposing of nonstrategic
assets. This includes the sale of government’s stake in Telkom,
for example, which could raise about R14,7 billion. That is why
we propose that government reconsiders its position and starts
selling nonstrategic assets to raise revenue that could be used,
for example, to fund infrastructure in South Africa.
The Minister pencilled in expenditure of R1,56 trillion, or 33%
of GDP for 2017-18. However, because of lower than expected
revenue, the Minister announced that the expenditure ceiling
would be lowered by R10,2 billion and that expenditure of
R16,9 billion would be reprioritised in 2017-18.
We welcome, of course, the R151 billion that will be spent on
social grants and the R77,5 billion that will be spent on higher
education. However, new spending pressures loom in the form of
the public sector wage bill, which will consume a staggering
R550,3 billion in 2017-18. In addition, irregular expenditure
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has skyrocketed, reaching an all-time high of R46 billion in
2015-16. The Minister of Mineral Resources, Mose ―waBenzi‖
Zwane, became a powerful symbol of the let-them-eat-cake style
of wasteful expenditure when, days before the Budget was
presented, it was revealed that he had purchased a new Mercedes
Benz E400 at a cost of R1,35 million, in violation of costcontainment measures implemented by National Treasury.
[Interjections.]
We have to get on top of reducing expenditure, but the Minister
employs a fragmented arsenal of fiscal tools to contain
spending. These include an expenditure ceiling, cost-containment
measures, procurement reform and performance and expenditure
reviews – a bit of this and a bit of that.
Mr P J MNGUNI: House Chair, on a point of order ...
Mr D J MAYNIER: We need to do things differently.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Maynier, please take
your seat. Yes, hon member, on what Rule are you standing?
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Mr P J MNGUNI: Chairperson, I rise in terms of Rule 85. The hon
member has cast clear aspersions on the Minister.
[Interjections.] The Minister, he has clearly said, was in
violation and therefore he should do so by a substantive motion
because violation cannot be condoned. Therefore, he must do so
through a substantive motion, hon House Chair. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon Maynier,
unfortunately, I couldn’t get the statement in which the casting
of aspersions is questioned. I will come back to that. Thank you
very much. Continue, hon Maynier.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Thank you, Chairperson. We need to do things
differently and implement a comprehensive spending review. That
is why we will propose that government considers implementing a
comprehensive spending review, which has proved successful in
many other countries, including Australia, Canada and the United
Kingdom.
Of course, there has been considerable fiscal slippage, with the
fiscal deficit of R149 billion, or 3,1% of GDP, being pushed up
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by R1,9 billion; and net loan debt of R2,2 trillion, or 47% of
GDP, being pushed up by an eye-watering R17,1 billion, in 201718. The root cause of the slow bleed, of course, is the fact
that government is unable to achieve its central target because,
at the end of the day, private sector investment has collapsed
in South Africa.
You have to ask yourself the following. Who, in their right
mind, would invest when President Jacob Zuma ditches his own
policy of inclusive growth, as set out in the National
Development Plan and inspired by Trevor Manuel, in favour of
radical economic transformation, inspired by the likes of Hugo
Chávez?
Who would invest when you have an aspirant Deputy Minister of
Finance, the hon Sfiso Buthelezi, who seems to believe that
corporate income tax should be increased in order to punish the
private sector for not investing in South Africa?
Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon House Chair, on a point of order: I rise in
terms of the principle that members may refer to each other in a
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dignified manner. [Interjections.] The hon Buthelezi is not any
aspirant Minister. This is derogatory and therefore he must
withdraw that. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Maynier ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Maynier ... May I
address the matter, hon member? I will come to you. Hon Maynier,
you referred to the hon Sfiso Buthelezi as the Deputy Minister
of ... [Interjections.] ... Did you refer to him as the Deputy,
aspirant Deputy Minister of Finance?
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, I did not refer to him as the
Deputy Minister of Finance. I did refer to him, however, as an
aspirant Deputy Minister of Finance, which is what I hear
virtually every week from members of that caucus.
[Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, thank you
very much. Continue. I don’t think that’s a point of order.
Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Who would invest when you have another aspirant Deputy Minister
of Finance, the hon Brian Molefe, who is committed to destroying
the private sector, or what he calls the ―monstrous beast‖, in
South Africa?
We cannot stop the madness, but we can start doing our job. For
that reason, we will propose that this Parliament establish an
ad hoc multiparty committee to provide scrutiny and oversight of
the implementation of the structural reforms necessary to boost
economic growth and create jobs in South Africa. The
establishment of such a committee will give hope to the lost
generation of young people who do not have jobs, or who have
given up looking for jobs in South Africa.
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When we look back, the Minister did not apportion blame for
government’s failures. What he did do, however, was apportion
the burden for government’s failures – in the form of a
R28 billion tax hike in 2017-18. The fact is that, last year,
the Minister reached into your left pockets and helped himself
to R18 billion. This year, the Minister has reached into your
right pockets and helped himself to R28 billion.
All this is because President Jacob Zuma and his cronies, inside
and outside the ruling party, are reaching into your back
pockets and helping themselves to billions and billions of rand
in South Africa. [Applause.] That is why, unless the corruption
and waste stops in this country, it will not be long before
people say, ―We are prepared to pay our fair share but only this
far, and no further‖ – and we are then going to have a tax
revolt on our hands in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: House Chairperson and Minister of Finance,
South Africa’s revenue structure is inherently incapable of
responding to the county’s developmental challenges. If the past
10 years, year-on-year’s growth of the revenue is anything to go
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by, we would permanently be incapable to respond to
developmental challenges of our homelessness, landlessness and
so many things of access to education. There has not been
radical expansion of the revenue base in a manner that would be
able to respond to all South Africans developmental challenges.
We are going to talk to how we must then begin to usher in some
structural legislated reforms in terms of taking our country and
broadening the revenue base in a manner that is going to be
inclusive.
Before that let us make some few remarks on the Budget. We
welcome the dividends withholding tax and within that it must
grow towards 40% from the current 20% that has been announced.
We welcome the increase in the income tax of those who earn
above R1,5 million and we believe that we should have increased
the corporate income tax as well because as a component of the
revenue, corporate tax is declining. It is 17% of the entire
revenue that is collected by the state and it should play a
critical role. But we are not here to dwell much on the
analysis, the economists and the political scientists will deal
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with that. We are here to speak on the way forward in terms of
what should happen - what is to be done.
We think that as part of the interventions that have to happen
we must legislate three forms of laws in South Africa. We must
legislate three broad categories of economic laws that will
result in economic inclusion and also in broadening the economy
in a manner that will satisfy everyone. The first set of laws
must be about facilitation of black participation in the current
economic interests. We must agree in principle that in all
economic interests in the banking sector, insurance sector and
in all sectors we must have a minimum of 50% black ownership. So
we must have black economic ownership act that must facilitate
black ownership of the economy. The content of that Act must
constitute worker-control and ownership in terms of how it
should.
The second set of laws that we must pass must be legislations
that set aside certain business interests for black people, in
particular the workers and the poor. We should agree in
principle that a certain number of business licences for banking
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sector, insurance sector and asset management sector are set
aside for black companies.
Also, we must have the third category of laws that will speak to
procurement by the state making sure that at least there is
localisation on those that provide services to the state
machinery. If apartheid was legislated to economically exclude
the black majority, we can utilise this moment to legislate
enforceable legislations that must include black people into the
economy. That is part of the things that we must be talking
about. If there was a degree of sophistication in the liberation
movement that is what you were suppose to conceptualise as
radical economic transformation, but you do not have any sense
of sophistication so we must give you guidance in terms of what
should happen.
Now we stand here to start a debate, a discourse that is going
to lead. [Time expired.] I am sure on 14 March when we deal with
these issues in the Standing Committee of Finance and the
portfolio committee we will deal it far more substantially. This
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is the way in which we can broaden economic participation and
include everyone.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, your time has
expired. I am going to switch off your mic, hon Shivambu, your
time has expired. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, this year’s Budget was
delivered in the utmost turbulent and uncertain political
environment ever experienced since the advent of our young
democracy. Minister Godhan had the thankless task of providing
real and pragmatic financial solutions whilst navigating a
hostile environment of political turmoil and severe fiscal
constraints courtesy of South Africa’s current lacklustre
economic growth which is not expected to exceed 1,3% in 2017.
Only yesterday it was reported that our investor confidence is
at an all time low because of the current political instability
and that of course would in all likelihood compromise our
economic recovery and growth projections for 2017.
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The fiscal framework before us proposes us to give effect to the
present so-called radical social economic transformation agenda.
This is includes being proeconomic growth and development, job
creation and the expansion of the tax base whilst at the same
time taking inequality and poverty alleviation. Once again a
pragmatic balance will have to be struck when dealing with
competing priorities. Needs before wants must be the approach as
the opportunity cost of government’s current wants before needs
will only exacerbate further socioeconomic disorder and retard
our growth.
The IFP reiterates the need for the fiscal systems that are to
be in pace to be strong enough to withstand the storm that will
encompass the ruling party’s politics this year. During such a
period of uncertainty criminal elements will take advantage of
the chaos and our fiscal checks and balances must be strong
enough to repel such advances on the fiscus.
Efforts must be to combat transfer mispricing and strengthen
mechanisms which protect our tax base must be commended. The
escalation of our national debt and the ever presence spectre of
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the credit rating agencies downgrades remain a concern,
especially in light of yesterday’s release by the statistics
office which measured growth at just over 0,3% last year.
Therefore, it remains trite but more certainly still the utmost
of importance that the fight against corruption, fraud and
maladministration at all levels of governance must be
intensified.
The IFP will continue to call for the establishment of a
corruption court which deal specifically with the transgressions
of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, Municipal Finance
Management Act, MFMA, and other treasury legislations and
regulations in both the public and private sector.
We remain of the firm believe that through fostering a domestic
environment in which the strategies of self-help and selfreliance can flourish, the only solution to fight and eradicate
poverty in South Africa.
In conclusion, we call for the fostering of a better working
relationship between the Treasury and the SA Social Security
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Agency, Sassa. It will never be in the national interest when
these two state entities are at odds with each another. I thank
you.
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, today I have a reason to keep to
my notes because I listened carefully when hon Maynier wasted 30
minutes to use the opportunity to address the masses on key and
important issues related to the economic growth, from 0,3 to
1,0%. I am going to give an illustration before I go to my
notes.
Firstly, hon Maynier is worried about the imposition of marginal
tax rate on the top bracket earners. Who are those people? The
rich! Who are they protecting? The rich! Secondly, hon David
Maynier is worried about Corporate Income Tax. Who owns
businesses in South Africa? The rich white people!
Thirdly, hon Maynier wants us to dispose of strategic assets
Telkom included. Why? The constituency he represents wants
government to take away these money-making institutions from the
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people to the rich. That is all that hon David Maynier could
say.
He also spoke about the Dividends Tax but said nothing
whatsoever suggesting how we should grow the economy. Therefore,
I’ll stick to my notes, hon Chairperson.
Let me do this. Hon members, in their book China’s Economy, Wu
Li, Sui Fumin and Zheng Lei wrote that China’s basic economic
systems and policies underwent transformation from the 70’s
obsolete systems and transcended to socialist market economy. I
want hon Shivambu to listen. They further reiterated that the
system developed unique set of characteristics.
In juxtaposing this statement with the South African economy, I
should hasten to say, having inherited a dying economy in 1994,
as the ANC-led government, we implemented an economic policy
that realised growth and redistribution; and later had to face
competing needs of growth vis-a-vis distribution. Those are the
hard facts.
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I decided to refresh my mind by reading Phillip Mohrs’s book
Understanding the Economy and specifically looking at economic
policy. Phillip Mohrs explains that every country’s government
tries to improve the performance of the economy by indicating
the necessary implementation of transformation charters. Our
Minister stood here and pointed that out; the need to implement
transformation charters. That, you’ll never support because that
will benefit the poor and black people in particular. That is
why we agree with you Floyd on that one.
The fundamental question is: How do we achieve? Do we take
shortcuts? I then decided again to source an answer from the
Chinese model.
Ms H O HLOPHE: On a point of order: Why is the hon member on the
podium calling our Deputy President by name?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. Hon
member, will you please call the member correctly!
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Ms T V TOBIAS: My hon member, hon Floyd Shivambu. Chair, did I
save my minutes?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): The clock is stagnant,
waiting for you to continue.
Ms T V TOBIAS: I then decided again to source an answer from the
Chinese model from these two writers. A mixed ownership
structure dominated by public ownership is the answer to growth
and distribution. They explain that after 1949 China entered a
new democratic economic society consisting of five economic
sectors namely, socialist state-operated economy; semi-socialist
cooperative economy; individual economy of farmers and
handicraftsmen; private capitalist economy; and state capitalist
economy.
Therefore, hon members, as we discuss radical economic
transformation, we’ll have to borrow from practical models with
South Africa’s characteristics. Whist on transformation, the
Minister asked a fundamental question as to what should be done
to address poverty. He mentioned the following elements: one,
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the creation of new assets; two, the introduction of new
technologies; diversification of our products and markets;
addressing collusion and cartels; and that our cities must be
shaped by transformation.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): On what Rule are you
rising, hon member?
Mr D J MAYNIER: On Rule 92, Chairperson. The hon member is
misleading the House. The hon member has clearly read Phillip
Mohrs’s beginners’ guide to the economy.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Maynier, please take
your seat! Continue hon Tobias.
IsiZulu:
Nk T V TOBIAS: Kukhonkothwa ehambayo Sihlalo. Kukhonkothwa
ehambayo.
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English:
... and applying a range of policy measures. The aim is to
achieve objectives such as economic growth, price stability and
full employment. Hon Chairperson, on 14 March 2017 the Standing
Committee of Finance will engage stakeholders to take stock of
the policies of government with regard to the practicality of
our economy in addressing basic needs. When we do so, we will
take stock of the fact that, in his Budget speech our Minister
of Finance indicated that economic growth is slow in the current
fiscal year.
In the same vein, we’ll take stock that, in his state of the
nation address the President indicated the need for economic
emancipation. He further said there is a need for fundamental
change in the patterns of economic ownership with specific
biasness to black people and women in particular.
When we engage on these fundamental policy matters, let us first
report about our economic performance. In his Budget speech, the
Minister of Finance reported that the economy has been growing
at 1,0% per capita over the past 10 years. He further indicated
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that globalisation benefited between 1 to 10% of the top
bracket. That is a fact! Over the past 10 years only the rich
benefited and not the poor whom you do not represent in this
regard.
The Minister of Finance further elaborated on the need to
balance the structure of our ownership and control, strengthen
the rule of law, and avoid chauvinism and populism. I then again
consulted the book by Marianne Abib-Pech on How to lead
effectively and get results. Marianne quoted Steve Jobs when he
said:
Leadership is about having courage to make difficult
decisions, and leadership is also about change and
decision-making.
As we discuss this fiscal framework, we may either choose to be
realistic or populist in our approach, as we saw what David did
here. We are going to be tactical ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please refer
to hon members in a respectful manner. Can you do that?
Ms T V TOBIAS: I apologise, hon Chair. Because I am losing time,
let me also borrow from Karl Popper’s book, The Arguments of the
Philosophers. In the chapter Reason and Society, he says:
We may choose some form of irrationalism, even some radical
or comprehensive form. But we are also free to choose a
critical form of rationalism, one which frankly admits its
origin in an irrational decision and which, to that extent,
admits a certain priority of irrationalism.
I call upon members from all political parties to provide
leadership as our government is trying to have a balance between
commitments and available funds. If we continue with nominal
growth, we will head towards a fiscal cliff.
We also need to address the challenge of contingent liabilities.
Our economic growth was revised downwards; the fiscal space is
becoming lesser; manufactured goods have fallen; and we need to
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avoid a fiscal drag. Some will waste their time on forecasting
and net-borrowing patterns like we’ve heard now.
We need to be sensitive in our analysis and do policy costing.
We also need to urge government departments to achieve targets.
Policy shifts should be introduced through a phased-in approach
and we need to benchmark for higher economic trajectory.
As I conclude, let me remind of the following, as the Minister
said: we need to reform social structures perpetuating poverty;
boost investments, land distribution and transformation;
increase production; and invest in sectors which create jobs.
Again, let me remind you that leadership is the courage to take
stock of practical conditions on the ground. The soil is fertile
for transformation. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr M L SHELEMBE: Chairperson, we acknowledge that the hon
Minister of Finance had to produce a poor Budget under tight
fiscal constraints and commend him for it. The NFP believes that
the full impact of this Budget will be felt for many years to
come because it heralds a deviation from the fiscal path of
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recent years, with a significant shift towards accommodating the
social-driven radical economic transformation initiative
announced during the President’s state of the nation address.
When taking a holistic view of the Budget, the NFP appreciates
the almost two-thirds of the Budget is allocated to functions
which are dedicated to giving effect to constitutionallymandated social rights such as education, health, social
security and housing. Our society is still crippled by
historical inequality and we believe that prioritising social
spending will contribute to addressing this inequality.
Unfortunately, with this emphasis on transformation, there is
little in the Budget to stimulate growth and boost economic
confidence in the future of our country. In particular, we are
concerned that the Budget is silent on how the GDP is going to
be lifted in South Africa.
The NFP agrees with the committee that government will have to
work closer with business, labour and civil society to ensure
economic growth. We believe that without inclusive growth, with
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the emphasis on growth, it will not be possible to implement the
radical economic transformation initiative in any noticeable
degree of success.
The NFP shares the concern of the committee about the levels of
infrastructure underspending. We are excited by the prospect of
a new financing facility for large infrastructure projects that
will project beyond the current three-year MTEF cycle. Such
large-scale infrastructure projects could be meaningfully
incorporated into government’s expanded public works framework
and generate much needed employment opportunities, particularly
in our impoverished rural area.
The NFP also remains concerned about the cost to the state inco
remunerating our bloated public service. The salaries of South
Africa’s nearly 1,3 million public servants nearly doubled
between 2008 and 2016, with an average of 1,8% point increase
above CPI inflation. The cold hard reality is that more than 44%
of government expenditure goes towards the salaries of civil
servants. This expenditure, combined with the significant
portion of expenditure allocated to servicing government’s debt
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is diverting much needed resources away from the social
upliftment of our people.
The NFP supports the recommendation as contained in the report.
I thank you.
Ms P S KEKANA: Today we celebrate the International Women’s Day;
and let me join the global community and wish all women a happy
International women’s Day. The day is celebrated under the theme
―Be Bold for Change.‖
The 2015 United Nations Commission on Status of Women Conference
highlighted the concern that global financial instability is a
threat to the economic progress of women. The Commission
indicated that gender responsive budgets by governments can
contribute in addressing inequality.
Implementation of commitments towards gender equality requires
allocation of resources in a way that contributes to advancing
gender equality and women’s empowerment.
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National Treasury has presented 2017-18 overall budget therefore
it is the responsibilities of various departments to have
detailed gender responsive budgets. The budgets must have
targeted gender based expenditures focused on equal employment
opportunities.
Parliament portfolio committees must be ―Bold‖ and advocate for
gender based budgeting by various departments. One element to
look at whilst providing oversight is to demand accountability
on how much was spend by departments to advance gender equality.
On this very significant day for women and gender rights, our
committee commits itself and - please note hon Minister that we will be far more active in ensuring greater gender
sensitivity in the budget, and we commit also to working with
the Portfolio Committee on women on this is a more structured
way.
The ANC led government is ―Bold‖ in its decisions to eradicate
any form of gender oppression in South Africa. Through the NDP,
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government is planning to eradicate inequality by 2030. It is
our duty as law makers to work towards this goal.
International Women’s Day is celebrated in recognition of women
and their achievements and rallying point to build support for
women’s rights and participation in the political and economic
arenas.
In dealing with the Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals of
the 2017 budget, the principles which underpinned the drafting
of the Women’s Budget in the 1990’s is as relevant today as it
was then. How we budget for the massification and education of
society, how the budget interfaces with dedicated legislation
and how it finances the tools to economically empower women are
critical indicators of whether we are making progress as a
nation and society or not.
Whether we are creating through the budget the conducive working
environment for working women to have the space and time to
cultivate and develop themselves has everything to do with the
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regulatory environment and what support is given to this through
the budget.
Institutional mechanisms for the advancement of women in society
have everything to do with a budget that is redistributive and a
budget that is inclusive for the growth of women in the economy
as workers and as managers.
This year’s theme for our fiscal framework is Transformation for
Inclusive Growth. It is important to clarify what this means in
the context of women and the most vulnerable in our society. In
terms of what the Minister presented to Parliament:
The budget gives effort to our transformation action agenda
by financing programmes which ensure that many more people
live in dignity; radically improve access to services and
economic participation across all racial lines - and there
I have included gender; energise growth and create jobs and
increase investment and development.
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The budget is highly redistributive to poor and the working
class, the pillars of which are women. The budget alone cannot
achieve our transformation goals. Although South Africa’s
expenditure continues to be redistributive, it is important to
continue to communicate how this benefits women so that we do
not lose sight of what we want to achieve as we construct the
National Democratic Society.
Economic Transformation without women will be narrow and will
widen inequality. Transformation which is the mechanism of a
National Democratic Revolution is about fundamentally dealing
with the contradictions of race, class and gender.
During the Committee’s public hearings, there was hardly any
submission and discussion of the interaction of the budget with
gender issues. Does this not reflect the need for wider societal
reorientation?
As a country we collect 72% of our revenue from the top 10% of
taxpayers and companies, which are controlled by expatriate
monopoly capital and national monopoly capital mostly white and
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male, and we spend 59% on social spending that 50% of the
population who are mostly black and women and from whom we
collect only 4% of the country’s revenues.
We, however, need to move beyond this phase of speaking of
women’s issues in reference to social spending and social
grants.
Ours is a developmental state in which women are a central and
integral. This developmental approach places empowered women at
the centre of growing and inclusive economy.
We are talking about a society where women should own productive
assets, where they should be majority shareholders in banks,
insurance companies and all sectors of our economy.
The 53rd National Conference of the ANC in respect of economic
transformation states ―We must ensure the mainstreaming of women
in the economy across all sectors as a deliberate commitment to
increase their access to finance, employment and assets.‖
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Only then, we could proudly say the country’s transformation is
inclusive. There is a strong need, therefore, for gender
mainstreaming of government plans and programmes across all
institutions of state so as to evaluate their impact in bridging
the gender gap.
Hon Chair, as I conclude, the 2017 Fiscal framework and revenue
proposals call for decisive action to be the cornerstone of
government interventions. This must go together with further
improvements in existing monitoring and evaluation systems. The
strategic levers at the disposal of the Developmental State
which include legislation, regulation, licences, charters and
codes, State-Owned Entities, SOE’s and Development Financial
Institutions, DFI’s must be optimally used.
Greater Government coherence and coordination in implementation
is necessary. The review and alignment of relevant legislation,
regulations, charters, accords and codes that are geared towards
radical economic transformation need to be undertaken so as to
ensure intended realisation of decisions.
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Focus must be directed towards identifying the potential of the
job drivers of our economy. And as the ANC has determined,
radical economic transformation denotes a fundamental change in
the structure, systems and patterns of ownership and control of
the economy.
Amandlaness!
Mr M L W FILTANE: The UDM supports the budget but, rampant
corruption has corroded and crippled our economy. Imagine a
Christmas tree of a million rand in a small town called
Butterworth in the Eastern Cape under ANC rule.
We appreciate that the Minister has always tried his best,
notwithstanding the difficult circumstances occasioned by the
bold call from the President for a budget that responds to the
envisaged Radical Socio-Economic Transformation in the space of
the economy. This was a very difficult expectation given the
hard fact of a government which is wrestling with an
unprecedented national debt challenge post the dawn of
democracy.
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Consequently, and with respect to the land question, the budget
failed to create hope for a speedy transfer of land to its
rightful owners. This was further exacerbated by the fact that
the ANC subsequently refused when the EFF proposed expropriation
of land without compensation and even with the added
qualification from the UDM that compensation should only be
considered for improvements.
There was no budget for extension of land expropriation beyond
the Constitutional limit of 19 June 1913. Had we agreed to amend
the Constitution, we would be talking a different story. The
fact is that land lies at the heart of the economy of the blacks
of South Africa.
Although the Minister had difficulty to manoeuvre for a radical
budget, he has however confirmed that our monies as South
Africans are in good hands – we appreciate that. That is what
all good citizens of this country at least want, in particular
during such a difficult time when the economy is struggling to
grow. People are jobless, poverty is on the rise and individual
debts are the order of the day.
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This therefore brings an urgent challenge to the Minister, his
colleagues in the Executive, the Industry, Civil Society and
Citizens in general, to ensure that our economy grows and reduce
the ratio between the revenue base and debt.
Taking advantage of, amongst others, Corporate Income Tax;
government, working with industry should consider financial
awareness campaigns at schools and communities in general. When
society has an economy that is not growing, and citizens are
heavily indebted, then that creates a deeper crisis and possible
collapse of the entire economy.
The UDM believes that it is possible; still, to provide free
higher education.
The ongoing reluctance of the private sector to invest in our
economy is a clear statement of no confidence in the government
of the day. Think on these things and you’ll be able to take
South Africa forward.
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Lastly, the austerity measures that were announced are welcome.
However, government must implement these without compromising on
the delivery of basic services to the poorest of the poor. Thank
you.
Mr P P MABE: Hon House Chair, maybe, let me start by echoing the
words of the late liberation fighter and former President of the
people of Mozambique, Samora Machel, whose words best personify
our continued defeat and fight to collapse monopoly capital when
he said: ―For the nation to live, a tribe must die.‖
Sepedi:
Bagologolo ba boletše ba re, ―Le ge o ka e buela leopeng,
magokobu a a go bona.‖
English:
When the DA spoke here, they were fully representing the
interest of white monopoly capital. They are saying that we are
not going to be able to transform this country. They are even
dealing away with the notion of radical economic transformation.
They are trying to speak out of procurement reforms when
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procurement plays such a central role in supply chain to make
sure that those who have been disadvantaged can ultimately play
role in the mainstream of the economy. You are saying that our
own cost containment measures which were necessary to try and
propel forward better planning and predictability on the side of
the state should be done away with so that we could be able to
priories some of the things that are not going to assist take
South Africa forward.
At least, we agree with the EFF on this one that economic
inclusion must facilitate greater participation by the black
majority in this country. This means that we must work and fight
hard to make sure that our people play in the space of the
economy where they were previously excluded. So you are saying
that we must not talk about radical economic transformation. You
are saying that we must not even consider corporate taxes
because you are spokespersons of capital. You are not here to
stick on behalf of the majority of South Africans, people who
are found in squalor and people who depend on the many
programmes that the ANC-led government has introduced.
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Next week on 14 March we will have public hearings here. It is
important that you come and listen to what our people want to
see us doing to try and transform this economy. [Applause.]
Maybe it is important that we must remind the DA that it is also
corruption to tell lies. It is corruption not to acknowledge
that there is a lot that is happening today in this country. It
is corruption not to acknowledge that we have created an economy
that is all inclusive. In the past we never had an economy that
was inclusive. It was only a specific race which could
participate in the economy.
Today, regardless of the colour of your skin, you could still
participate. Some of the compromises we have made were to even
make sure that those who have even been participating before as
the part of the sunset clauses could still participate. We did
not take over power and chase people away. Something that some
of you want to do on this other side. That is why you will never
be a government in this country. [Applause.]
The reason why the DA wants us to sell nonstrategic assets is
because the DA is obsessed about not employing the majority of
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people in this country, because some of the assets that they
regard as nonstrategic in their own imagination are the ones
that are creating jobs for a lot of people in this country.
If you listened carefully to Minister Pravin’s budget
presentation you will have realised that there are areas where
we have made progress. We have been able to create jobs in a
number of sectors. We are increasing budget, for instance, in
the ... [Interjections.]
Mr L J BASSON: Where?
Mr P P MABE: No, you will say where because you do not know. We
are doing it already through the black industrialist programme.
Monies are being set aside there. We are creating opportunities,
for instance, for the majority of our people even through the
Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, something that did not
exist when you were in power. We are trying to make sure that we
create a strong co-operative movement in this country so that
our people can participate in the economy.
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We have said that we are not going to be increasing value added
tax, VAT, without broader consultation. Those of you who sit in
the Finance committee will know that before we arrive at a
conclusion or conclude on a matter we shall have consulted
broadly with the people that are affected. We are doing it with
the sugar tax. We will do it with VAT and all of that. We do not
just wake up tomorrow and say no, we are going to adjust VAT
without consulting the people affected. Where we introduce taxes
in sectors we are doing so because we want to facilitate
movement in the economy. We have already done so with the
environmental levy, a good progress that has been realised by
this Fifth Parliament. We did so to make sure that we could
allow our people to also participate, yet, again in the economy.
Ms T STANDER: That is nonsense.
Mr P P MABE: You see these things as rubbish because where you
come from they eat rubbish. We are doing our best.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, continue.
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Mr P P MABE: If you eat rubbish at home you will believe that
what people say is rubbish because our people are being fed lies
everyday.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order, hon
members! Order! Continue! Order, hon members!
Mr P P MABE: Like I have said before, it is also corruption to
tell lies. You have been telling a lot of lies to our people.
You have projected yourself as an alternative government and,
yet, you want to denounce the notion of radical economic
transformation. You are using black as your voting fodders. You
do not represent the interest of our people. Thank you, House
Chair.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I take a bow, hon Mabe. Chairperson and
hon members, this is a debate about the Fiscal Framework and the
Revenue Proposals, just in case we forget. Let me make a few
introductory comments in response to what hon Carrim and others
have contributed to this debate. I want to thank the committee
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and the committee from the NCOP for the good work they have
actually done.
The first point that we need to make is that our fiscal strategy
which is reflected in the Budget is a very careful balancing
Act, as we have pointed out repeatedly, between revenue raising,
expenditure cutting, borrowing carefully and at the same time
ensuring that we don’t damage economic growth in a negative way,
and continue with the processes of finding savings, but ensure
that our Budget remains essentially redistributive. It is a
symbol of social solidarity in South Africa and an expression of
the support that the better offs in South Africa give to the
less well-offs in South Africa.
I think it is important in that context to remind hon Maynier
that debt shouldn’t be made a bogey. Having debt is a normal
thing in a household and for an individual provided that you do
it in a reasonable way and one understands the limits that one
has to work with. The rating agencies and our own investors
would say that we have the ability and willingness to pay,
something that South Africa has been able to demonstrate over
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the last 20 years of democracy. Nobody doubts our ability and
willingness to pay our debts. So, be careful not to make it a
bogey. Very few countries in the world survive without some
level of debt or the other. The only question is how we manage
that.
The second point we need to make is that without inclusive
growth, the accompanying transformation of our economy and the
participation of all of our people in our economy, we will not
grow this economy. If we don’t grow this economy we will not
generate revenue and if we don’t grow revenue we will not create
the fiscal capability that is required to meet either the
support for the economy or continue with the social support that
we have been giving to our own people over the period of time. I
would recommend to all the parties here that let’s really have a
serious conversation on how to get growth going. I think hon
Shivambu has his ideas. But in doing so, let us also not
specialise in slogans because that is not helpful. Let us talk
about what will work given South Africa’s history which we
should all admit that it is quite a divisive one - one which has
created massive inequalities in our society and leaves the
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majority of our people behind. On the one hand, also understand
our current context and what are the limits and opportunities
that we have and how will we seize those opportunities through
innovation creativity but above all by building consensus
amongst ourselves. If we don’t do that, we will neither get the
radical transformation that we are asking for nor meet the
requirements of our people as well.
The third and essential point around transformation is that
transformation needs to be directed to the vast majority of our
people in the lower classes – the working class and the poor.
They must be the principal beneficiaries. It is nice to have
billionaires and millionaires, but the principal beneficiaries
over the next 10 years must be our own people who find
themselves in despair. The real genius that we need to generate
is how do we address their concerns, how do we increase wealth
in their hands and how do we increase assets in their hands so
that intergenerational poverty ends with generation. That is the
key challenge that we actually have amongst ourselves.
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Related to growth, is a question of private investment. A number
of hon members have addressed this question. We will not get
private investment if we keep battering people. You get private
investment if, firstly, there are opportunities; secondly,
somebody will make a profit; thirdly, if we create the right
level of confidence and the policy environment; and fourthly, if
we create the necessary consensus as required to generate the
kind of optimism that our country is very capable of if we put
our heads and hearts together. The choice we have is whether we
continue to make negative noises or we try to work across party
lines not withstanding political and economic constraints that
we have, we try to meet some of the demands that we have on our
society, create conditions for the private sector and indeed for
the state itself to become a key investor in our economy.
One of the appeals that I would like to make is that, in our
debates we should not sacrifice a key principle or set of
principles, as hon Kekana would say, in our Constitution that of
nonsexim and nonracialism. We are tending towards and moving
towards creating greater divisions amongst ourselves perceived
or otherwise. I think let us focus on the issues before us and
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ask ourselves how do we work with each other in order to get
some of these dynamics going.
Hon Carrim, the Money Bills Act is a Parliament’s Act and I hope
that you, your committee and others in Parliament will bring
about changes that will make it comfortable for committees to
process the Fiscal Framework whilst we accept that we need to
engage with the various stakeholders who make presentation to
your committee. We must accept it as you pointed out that if you
come with a different paradigms and a different philosophical
outlooks, then we are going to have differences. What I have
observed from what I have read from your report is that we have
too many traditionalists coming to the committee who as well put
forward traditional views as opposed to creative views that
addresses the kind of concerns that we have in South Africa at
this particular point in time.
On the question of tax administration, one of the things that we
need to discourage is the idea that there is a personality issue
here, no, there are not. The very simple and fundamental
constitutional issue here is that the head of an entity is
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accountable to the Minister, end of story. We need to make sure
that we get the kind of accountability as the committee
recommends in its report including the manner in which we have
generated huge concerns amongst the public about refunds, the
way they are managed, the way they are being held back and
whether this begins to influence revenue numbers and the kind of
confidence we can place on those numbers as well. However, we
will continue to work on some of those issues.
On the question of a debt ceiling which hon Maynier proposes,
some countries have them, some countries don’t and some
countries created them and got rid of them. Those are the
economic environment and dynamic changes. Our Fiscal Framework
needs to be on the one hand providing certainty and on the other
hand has an element of flexibility in it as well. I think that
is the balance that we are aiming for and have been aiming for
as the ANC government for many years.
On the question of not emphasising fiscal drag, well, it is
there. South Africa has the most transparent Budget in the
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world. I am afraid, hon Maynier, we are not hiding anything.
It’s a question of whether one wants to read about it or not.
On the question of sale of noncore assets, I think it is clear.
If we are not growing the economy and not generating the economy
that we require, we have to mobilise revenue either from the
sale of noncore assets and or get resources from other sectors
of society that actually have them and create the environment in
which those resources create the dynamics that we require in the
economy itself.
On the question of whether we need an ad hoc committee, I leave
that to Parliament to decide. Hon Shivambu, I think the ideas
that you have are interesting for a debate. I am not sure
whether and how raising dividend tax to 40% or some of the other
ideas that you have will begin to make an impact on some of the
challenges that we have, but we will avail ourselves for the
discourse that you speak of. We agree with your objectives that
economic inclusion and participation on an urgent basis is
something that all of us would agree with.
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Hon Hlengwa, you made a very valid point that when we are going
through periods of global turbulence and perhaps some levels of
noise in the South African context, it is important to keep the
fiscals ship as steady as possible and to ensure that whilst we
go through these political breezes sometimes they might become
gale force winds, and we should not let the fiscal ship down and
sacrifice the future of our own population in the process.
On the question of corruption, a number of hon members have
raised that as well. Once again, unless we create a social
movement in South Africa which preaches all of us to become more
accountable about the way in which we either oversee the
spending of public money or actually spend public money and hold
both ourselves and our administrations to account, we will not
make much progress in this particular regard.
Hon Shelembe, the Budget Speech is full of ideas on growth. The
question is how do we take ideas and make them practical and how
we get implementation going in South Africa and create the
condition for that. That is the challenge that we need to take
up.
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Finally, hon Filtane’s point about financial awareness campaign
is a very important one and I hope that Parliament can agree on
some kind of campaign with us and other departments as well to
generate far greater financial literacy amongst our population.
Once again, thank you for your various thoughts and you are
welcome to come and debate those with us. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I move:
That the House adopts the 2017 Fiscal Framework and Revenue
Proposals and the Report of the Standing Committee on
Finance there on.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
2017 Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals, and the Report of
Standing Committee on Finance accordingly adopted.
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UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
(Ruling)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, on 23
February 2017, Thursday, during the declarations on the Report
of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Appointment of Board Members to
the National Youth Development Agency, hon T Rawula of the EFF,
rose on a point of order requesting hon Mkongi of the ANC to
withdraw his statement that hon Shivambu had chawed the money
from the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, and requested
the House Chairperson to Rule on the remark.
According to the unrevised Hansaerd, hon Mkongi said, and I
quote:
Thank you Chairperson, by the way, personal attacks do not
deter me and they do not demoralise me. The previous board
cleansed out the mess done by hon Shivambu and his friends
when he was in the Youth League. They chawed a lot of money
of the NYDA and they think that this NYDA is going to do the
very same mess they have done previously.
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I undertook to study the Hansard and return to this House with a
ruling on the matter. Having studied the unrevised Hansard, I
would like to rule as follows:
Rule 85(1) requires that no member may impute improper motives
to any other member or cast personal reflection upon a member’s
integrity or dignity or verbally abuse a member in any other
way.
Further, Rule 85(2) requires that any member who wishes to bring
an improper or unethical conduct on the part of another member
to the attention of the House may do so only by way of separate
substantive motion comprising a clearly formulated and properly
substantiated charge for consideration.
The statement by hon Mkongi reflects on the honour and dignity
of hon Shivambu and is therefore unparliamentary. I will now ask
hon Mkongi to stand up. Hon Mkongi, will you please stand up?
Hon Mkongi, I will ask you to withdraw the remarks.
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Mr B M MKONGI: House Chairperson. No, I unreservedly withdraw.
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, Order!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You must never repeat it, Mkongi, never!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Shivambu, please,
please!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You must not repeat it. You must never do it
again.
UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
(Ruling)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, order!
Order! On Thursday, 23 February 2017, again during the
declarations on the Report of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on
Appointment of Board Members to the National Youth Development
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Agency, hon P J Mnguni raised a point of order during the
declaration by hon B M Mkongi. In response to comments made by
hon Mkongi, the hon Shivambu said, and I quote:
So, the alcohol of Mkongi must not make him to come and lie
here. Don’t bring your alcohol problems here, chief,
please.
Hon Shivambu, will you please seat. Hon Shivambu! Anyway, I
will continue.
Hon P J Mnguni then rose on a point of order to enquire
whether such remarks were parliamentary.
After having had an opportunity to study the unrevised Hansard,
I would like to rule as follows: I would like to draw the
attention of the House to the Assembly Rules, Rule 84 and Rule
85 which provide that, no member may offensively abuse,
insulting disrespectful unbecoming or unparliamentary words or
language and that no member may impute improper motives to any
other member or cast personal reflections upon a member’s
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integrity or dignity or verbally abuse a member in any other
way.
The assertion made by hon Shivambu that hon Mkongi used alcohol
and that he was lying was clearly in contravention of the two
Rules which are meant to protect the dignity and honour of our
members. Any remarks meant to tarnish this are in contravention
of the Rules.
I will therefore ask hon Shivambu to withdraw. Unfortunately, we
are all witnesses to what has just happened. Without going
further, the processes to this behaviour will be reported to the
relevant offices. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What is it, hon member?
Mr L G MOKOENA: No Chair, the hon ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no! What are you
rising on?
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Mr L G MOKOENA: On a point of ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order members!
Members I am still here, please, members. Allow me to do my
work. On what Rule are you standing, hon Mokoena?
Mr L G MOKOENA: I am standing on a point of privilege, Mam. I
wanted to explain that the hon Shivambu has an important meeting
that he is attending to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, no, no, I have ruled
on this matter and the processes will be followed. Hon member,
please, take your seat.
Mr L G MOKOENA: No, no, I am just saying.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please, take
your seat. Hon members, that brings us to the end of today’s
proceedings and the House is adjourned.
The House adjourned at 19:28.
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