Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 15 Mar 2018

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

 

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 15 MARCH 2018

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THURSDAY, 15 MARCH 2018

 

 

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

 

 

The House met at 10:02.

 

 

House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick as Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

 

 

SUSPENSION OF RULE TO ALLOW FOR SECOND READING DEBATE

 

 

 

(Draft Resolution)

 

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution as printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

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That the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, for the purpose of conducting the Second Reading debate today on the Division of Revenue Bill.

 

 

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

 

 

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS – MARINE SPATIAL PLANNING BILL

 

 

MARINE SPATIAL PLANNING BILL

 

 

 

(Second Reading debate)

 

 

There was no debate.

 

 

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report on the Marine Spatial Planning Bill as well as the Marine Spatial

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Planning Bill be referred back to the committee for further consideration and report.

 

 

Motion agreed to.

 

 

Report and Bill accordingly referred back to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs for further consideration and report.

 

 

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS

 

– DIVISION OF REVENUE BILL

 

 

 

There was no debate.

 

 

The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.

 

 

Motion agreed to.

 

 

Report accordingly adopted.

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, 15 MARCH 2018

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(Second Reading debate)

 

 

Mr N E GCWABAZA: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, and hon members, may I immediately apologise for the chairperson who was supposed to introduce the debate. We will do so on her behalf.

 

 

The Standing Committee on Appropriations presents the

 

2018 Division of Revenue Bill after having heard public hearings and consulting stakeholders on the Division of Revenue Bill. The report was considered by the committee and duly adopted. We therefore present this Bill to Parliament today, and I must immediately say that the ANC chapter of the committee supports the Bill.

 

 

The revenue allocations between government and the two subnational governments reflect a muted increase in the

2018 financial year. Notwithstanding the unfavourable economic

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and fiscal conditions, the average annual growth in the

 

2018 Division of Revenue Bill is above inflation for all three spheres of government over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period. This means that whilst there are cuts in the conditional grants, especially those that have not performed well, the division of revenue is characterised by real and above-inflation growth in the equitable share between the three spheres of government during this MTEF period. Through fiscal consolidation, the debt-to-GDP ratio is declining noticeably.

 

 

The Division of Revenue Bill remains distributive in favour of small towns and rural municipalities, as they have a low revenue base and lack revenue collection capacity.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Uhulumeni kaKhongolose ubone kubalulekile ukwabiwa kwemali ngendlela ezokhuthaza ukusebenzisa imali ngokonga futhi izidingo zabantu zifezeke ngokugculisayo. Ngalesi sizathu lemali engasebenzanga kusuka ekuqaleni konyaka wezimali ngoMbasa

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nyakenye kulezi zigaba zontathu zombuso naseminyangweni ehlukahlukene kuze kube uyaphela ngoNdasa kulonyaka ophezulu njengoba uphela ngoEphreli ngo-March 1 ithathiwe yase ibelwa izinhlelo eziqhubeka kahle nokufeza izidingo zomphakathi njengoba kuqala unyaka omusha wezimali. Ngalolu hlahlozimali luka-2018 uHulumeni uhlose ukunqanda futhi anciphise izikweleti zikaHulumeni bese seziyofinyelela ezingeni eliphezulu ngokungamukelekile. Kubalulekile-ke ukuthi kuvikelwe ukuzimela nokukhululeka kwezwe lakithi lingagajwa yizikweleti ezingasakhokheki.

 

 

Futhi kubalulekile ukuthi izizukulwane ezilandelayo zikaHulumeni kaKhongolose ngoba zisazoba ziningi izizukulwane zikaKhongolose ziphethe leli zwe, ziphathe izwe elingenazo izikweleti.

Yingakho-ke kufanele kuqedwe nokusetshenziswa budedengu bemali kaHulumeni kuwo womathathu amazinga okuphatha.

 

 

English:

 

It is important to highlight that, for the first time, a new clause in the Division of Revenue Bill, clause 30(2)(d),

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addresses the allocation of resources for the unfunded mandates assigned to the municipalities. Provincial Treasuries will now be bound to allocate funds to the municipalities which, in the past, have had to carry the burden of unfunded service delivery programmes.

 

 

We need to mention that a lot of concern has been raised with regard to the increase of taxes, especially the value-added tax. However, we must point out that it is the type of tax that was necessary ...

 

 

Mr M WATERS: Why?

 

 

Mr N E GCWABAZA: ... of course including the other taxes as well, necessary in order to ensure that government does not drastically cut services to the communities ...

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Cut basic education ...

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Mr N E GCWABAZA: ... but also ensure that we cover the shortfall that was the result of lost revenue in this last financial year. However, we must mention that VAT can always be reconsidered. It can also be discontinued. In fact, South Africa is amongst the countries with the lowest VAT in the world, especially amongst the developing countries.

 

 

An HON MEMBER: Anti-poor budget!

 

 

Mr N E GCWABAZA: What is also critical is the fact that an irresponsible government simply could have decided to drastically cut spending and thus jeopardise the delivery of services to the communities. [Interjections.] Alternatively, an irresponsible government simply could have borrowed from the financial institutions and thus have increased its debt. It was more prudent to consider favourably the increase of taxes so that ... [Interjections.] ... no, not to hurt the poor but to make sure that services continue to be delivered to our people and to ensure that the economy turns around and grows, as

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government creates conditions for jobs and for the eradication of poverty.

 

 

What is also important to mention is that ...

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

... uHulumeni kaKhongolose uthathe isinqumo esicacile sokuthi abafundi abafunda emanyuvesi sebezofunda mahala kusuka kulonyaka wezimali. Labo abampofu naba yizingane zabasebenzi nabo bonke abantu abahola inani elingaphansi lika-R350 000 ngonyaka.

Ngakho-ke kufanelekile ukuthi zonke lezi zidingo zifezeke. Omunye umuntu ngeke aqonde ukuthi kubaluleke kangakanani ukususa lesi sisindo sokufundisa izingane kubantu bakithi abampofu ikakhulukazi abekade becindezelekile esikhathini esiphambili ukuze izingane zabantu zifunde zingakhokhi emanyuvesi nasezikhungweni zokufundela imisebenzi ama-TVET colleges.

 

 

English:

 

The reallocation of resources and the emphasis on a prudent, efficient and outcomes-based approach informed by the 2014-

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2019 Medium-Term Strategic Framework and the 2017 mandate paper that redefines government priorities mark a shift in the management and implementation of economic and fiscal policies – a shift that emphasises clean governance and closes the chapter of corruption and maladministration.

 

 

The ANC supports the 2018 Division of Revenue Bill and the recommends that the House passes it. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

 

 

Mr A R McLOUGHLIN: Hon Chairperson, I have previously remarked on how important it is to tell the truth, when one is reporting on financial matters. When I consider this year’s Division of Revenue Bill, I am reminded of the fact that the Minister of Finance who tabled this Bill was recently adjudged by a court to have, at best, a nodding acquaintance with the truth. How much reliance can be placed on the statements made by the flexible Mr Gigaba? When he was challenged during the briefing session to the Finance Committee the day after tabling the Budget, he adamantly insisted that this was a pro-poor Budget. The

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erstwhile hon Minister of Finance was wrong. I’ll tell you why I say so.

 

 

A large portion of the available revenue is to be allocated to the Department of Higher Education to foot the bill for the former President’s magnanimous but ill-advised promise to provide fee-free education to tertiary institutions and those who qualify for it. His promise to students will harm generations to come if this Bill is implemented as proposed. The erstwhile Minister of Finance was of the opinion that this will greatly advantage the poor because they will no longer be required to save for their children’s higher education, leaving them with more available cash to spend and hence improving their lot. Saving is a luxury that few South Africans can afford.

 

 

In order to fund tertiary education, Treasury hopes to, inter alia, raise additional R22,9 billion in revenue from the hike in VAT and then reduce the allocations to the Departments of Human Settlements, Basic Education and Health, amongst others. These are departments set up with the sole intention of improving the

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lives of poor South Africans, yet their budgets are cut. This means that the standard of basic education, which is already amongst the lowest in the world, will fall even lower and produce even fewer students able to take advantage of the opportunities for higher education that their reduction in numbers will make possible. If one thinks of this situation against the backdrop of fewer houses becoming available, while the need is constantly increasing, and a further deterioration in health services, all due to reduced funding, then it is not difficult to understand why it is my submission that this Division of Revenue Bill will increase the plight and numbers of this nation’s poverty-stricken citizens.

 

 

The obvious counter to this would be to stimulate the economy so as to boost economic growth, increase demand, production and employment, and in so doing, increase the tax base and spread the load. Did government do this? No, of course not! Instead, Treasury decided to, inter alia, reduce the amount payable to municipalities by way of Municipal Infrastructure Grants and encourage municipalities to fund their infrastructure projects

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through borrowing. But borrowed money comes at a high price; a price that few municipalities can afford.

 

 

Infrastructure leads to growth. Growth leads to jobs. Jobs lead to more growth. So it makes no sense at all to restrict the amount available for the provision and maintenance of municipal infrastructure, especially in light of rapidly-growing urban populations. As Municipalities will have less funding available, it is service delivery that will suffer. The average South African will again suffer a lower quality of life as the ghost of Jacob Zuma’s presidency continues to haunt the new dawn.

 

 

This makes Treasury’s suggestion that municipalities should increase their borrowings very concerning. Municipalities across the country are already over-indebted. Precarious balance sheets make risk-weighted borrowing expensive. Where, when and how will we reverse this trend unless we start to stimulate economic growth in every industry in the country? It is surely trite than one can no more borrow one’s way out of debt than one can tax one’s way to prosperity. So what is the answer?

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The DA suggested a whole raft of cost-cutting measures that would have saved the amount necessary to avoid borrowing more money. That suggestion was rejected out of hand by the ANC-led bloated government for no good reason. If that suggestion had been implemented, the savings would have been sufficient to cover the deficit and eliminate the need to raise further loans, and the ghost of Jacob Zuma could be sent where it belongs. This would have meant lower debt service costs. The money saved could have been utilised to stimulate the economy in a way that would start to reverse the trends I have described.

 

 

Hon Chair, Minister Nene has, for the second time since I have been in this Parliament, been handed a poisoned chalice by his predecessor. An angry woman once said to Winston Churchill: “If you were my husband, I would put poison in your cup," to which Mr Churchill responded: "Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it.” I hope that the Minister of Finance will not be tempted to do likewise! Cut the fat, exorcise the ghost and let’s build this economy. The DA rejects this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

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Ms H O MKHALIPHI: House Chairperson, the Division of Revenue Bill is a piece of legislation which takes the revenue that was collected nationally and divide it between spheres of government, i.e national, provincial and local government. The Division of Revenue Bill is an important piece of legislation that must be framed as a developmental budget. A budget that must prioritise building internal state capacity and invest in local manufacturing processes to unlock growth.

 

 

After the 2008 financial crisis, in the absence of investment from private capital, municipalities in Europe were leading investment which has led to growing construction and manufacturing sectors. For instance, Germany municipal investments stand at 136 billion Euros. This trend is emerging across Europe and it has long been the case in Latin America and Asia. Such a developmental budget must prioritise buying local products and investing in local talents.

 

 

It is for this reason that we view the decision by the Reserve Bank to place VBS under curatorship as not only a sign of lack

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of confidence in African leadership to manage their economic affairs, but equally failure to provide much needed support to increase participation of black people in the financial sector. With a developmental budget which prioritises local government and allocates more than just nine percent currently allocated to local government, it is mutual banks, corporative banks and other small banks together with municipalities, which will transform, localise and grow a much inclusive economy with greater participation of black people.

 

 

If our framework to divide revenue that is raised nationally continue as it is, with the belief that local government must raise its revenues, it is not sustainable and will entrench apartheid style of budgeting. Local government cannot raise revenue, invest in infrastructure and equally invest in productive sectors with unemployment of 26,7%; half the population living in poverty; 17 million people depending on grant and the tax base at national shrinking as all forms of taxes continue to increase in an economy that is not growing.

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We cannot achieve this as long as government, including state- owned entities, continues to rely on outsourcing even the most basic functions. The whole of Eskom has no internal capacity and everything including maintenance of some of the most strategic stations, is outsourced to the private sector. In turn, government finances, as allocated by the Division of Revenue Bill, are infested with serious leakages from corruption, wasteful and irregular expenditure, and inflated prices.

 

 

We have now seen mountains of evidence of how corruption is linked with arrests in Estina Dairy Farm project in the Free State. We must abolish tendering and build strong internal capacity across all spheres of government including state-owned entities. I thank you, Chair.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, ...

 

 

English:

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... at the outset because we have to deal with 52 cent fuel levy, hon Minister. I am glad there are a number of Ministers who are here today. Can Ministers ask their securities to switch off their cars when they are parked outside? You are driving these seven engine cars and walk past here. [Applause.] The constable there, sitting with the air conditioner just running. Everybody says let us do the small things. Maybe the discipline needs to start on this very precinct. What happens outside is totally unacceptable and a slap in the face to the measures which we are trying to put in place. So may be lets start there and see how serious you are.

 

 

IsiZulu:

 

Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe unikezwe uhlahlomali oluyinhlekelele esikhathini lapho umnotho waseNingizimu Afrika ukhula ngonyawo lonwabu nokuthi abantu bakithi bazibone ukuthi bangaphansi kwengcindezi esezingeni eliphezulu engakaze ibonwe. Nanjengoba nizonyusa intela kaphethiloli ngamasenti ayi-52 kanye ne-VAT izonyuka ngephesenti elilodwa. Zonke lezi zinto uma sezihlanganisiwe ziyizinkomba zokuthi abantu bakithi yibona

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abazoshayeka kakhulu ngalesi simo. Uma ubuka imali yokugibela abazobe behamba ngayo beya emadolobheni beyothenga ukudla, izonyuka ngoba uma kunyuka uphethiloli kunyuka imali yokugibela amatekisi ne-VAT iyanyuka.

 

 

Abantu abangasebenzi ikakhulukazi intsha yaseNingizimu Afrika nayo izodingeka ikhokhe imali ekhuphukayo uma beyofuna imisebenzi imali abangenayo. Ngakho ke kuyacaca ukuthi lolu hlahlomali aluzange luze lubukisise ngokubanzi ukuthi umonakalo uzoba ngakanani kulabo bantu bakithi okuyibona abahluphekayo nokudinga ukuthi uhulumeni ngempela ngempela ingabe uyena obabhekelelayo. Kuzodingeka ukuthi Ngqongqoshe mhlawumbe ngoMfumfu uma sesibuyekeza lolu hlahlomali wenze izinhlelo nemizamo yokusiza abantu bakithi ngoba njengoba izinto ziqhubeka njengamanje ububha buzoqhubeka nokunyuka nanjengoba amazinga okungasebenzi kwabantu bakithi asezingeni eliphezulu.

 

 

English:

 

Hon House Chairperson, we must begin building capacity within the state and avoid the perpetual problem of outsourcing, which

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really does very little for skills transfer in government departments and state entities. Really, it is a bottomless pit because that one of its own as far as we are concerned is wasteful and fruitless expenditure.

 

 

Municipalities and provinces have been hard done by this budget and they are going to be limping and we are expecting them to be on the cold face of service delivery. The funding model is obviously not in a collective interest of maintaining intergovernmental relations and some sorts of changes need to be made to ensure that we are actually fair particular to municipalities, build up their capabilities to be able to generate income so that they are not dependent on the Division of Revenue. All in all as far as the IFP is concerned, this budget does not go far enough to address the challenges before us but the little that is there needs to be supported. I thank you.

 

 

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: House Chair, Deputy President, Ministers, hon members of this House, the NFP notes the submission made by

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various stakeholders on the Division of the Revenue Bill tabled here today. Hon Chairperson, we note that R85 billion in the medium-term will be cut. A matter of concern here is that the R28 billion in reduction in the provincial and local government.

 

 

Now one of the serious challenges that we found is the underspending and year in and year out we come here. I am glad the Deputy President is here present today. Year in and year out, we hear of underspending. Underspending means it affects service delivery, and yet there are no consequences for those that fail us year in and year out. It is time that we take this matter very seriously. So monies that are allocated are spent accordingly.

 

 

Let me give you one good example of underspending, the City of Cape Town underspend R1 billion. [Laughter.] Let me repeat

R1 billion in underspending in the Human Settlement debacle [Interjections.] despite the fact that there are over 450 000 people in the Western Cape of the City of Cape Town.

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[Interjections.] Now how to do make us understand that? Clearly, poor people’s lives don’t matter in this DA. [Interjections.]

 

 

Hon Chairperson, the NFP welcomes the R6 billion that has been set aside for drought relief and those provinces are affected by the water crisis. The question that we are asking is: Is the National department now from that R6 billion going to allocate money to the Western Cape, who created day zero for devious reasons in order to get R600 million for the dirty tricks election campaign in 2019? You are saying we must now give money for that. We are saying the government must be very careful, we cannot trust them anymore. You need to control that money we are using - R6 billion should be used in the interest of the poorest of the poor people here. [Interjections.]

 

 

The NFP expresses concern on the value-added tax, VAT. We want to express that the socioeconomic conditions of the people in the Western Cape will be hard hit. It’s not only the one per cent VAT, but the tariff that has now been put in place as the result of the water crisis. It is now going to make it very,

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very difficult for the people in the Western Cape. Human Settlements ... [Time expired.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Hon Kwankwa, please take your seat. You must approach the podium once the member has left and I have called you. The hon Kwankwa.

 

 

IsiXhosa:

 

Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Ewe Sihlalo ndilapha ngoku eqongeni.

 

 

English:

 

Hon Minister, I heard someone quoting Winston Churchill who said:

 

 

a nation that tries to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself like by the handle

 

 

I think to some extend if you consider what we are doing, especially to the poor the issues highlighted around VAT and

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reduction of grants, particularly those are meant for the poor, your, education infrastructure grant, your human Settlements grant. It means we take money from the poor in order to balance the budget.

 

 

More importantly, Mr Minister, I studied recently. I read a report which was compiled by the Congressional Budget Office State equivalent of our own Parliamentary Budget Office with respect to this issue of Corporate Income Tax in South Africa that is 28%. I think, we need to correct that misconception and say for example, according to their study what they discovered is that while the Statutory Corporate Tax Rate isn’t 28%, but if you consider or calculate the average Corporate Income Tax Rate and also take into the effective Corporate Income Tax Rate once you have adjusted or accounted for depreciation and other tax avoidance schemes by the private sector that the actual effective Corporate Income Tax Rate is significantly lower. They were estimating it in South Africa to be between 9 and 19% depending, whether you use average or the effective rate. In fact, if you look America, which has a Statutory Corporate

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Income Tax Rate of 39,1% once these averages are calculated and the effective Corporate Income Tax Rate, the actual rate that the corporate pay is about 19-20% which is not significant difference from South Africa. So, when you look at the contribution whether it’s VAT of personal income tax and CIT we must consider these factors which are very important.

 

 

I think there is nothing that concerns us which show that the local spheres of government are not given enough resources.                                                                                                                                                  I want to read what is contained in the Appropriations Report which says: In 2018-19 for example government will spend more on interest payments than on transfers to local governments. The budget document showed that since 2011-12 interest payments have grown faster than allocations to national, provincial or local government, crowding out space for increasing productive expenditure – that is the crisis of titanic proportion, especially if we are going to spend more on interest payments than the amount of money that we give to local sphere of government while they are in the cold face of service delivery

... [Time expired.]

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Mr W W WESSELS: Hon Chairperson, South African municipalities are financially unsustainable. Municipal and provincial infrastructure is, in general, in a dire state. Municipalities owe Eskom billions and many are currently facing power cuts due to nonpayments.

 

 

It is thus disconcerting that the expenditure cuts in this budget include cuts to infrastructure allocations, including conditional grants. Many municipalities and provinces are guilty of underspending on these grants and I understand that that is used as justification for these cuts.

 

 

However, the residents of these municipalities and provinces are not the ones guilty of underexpenditure because of poor management. It is the ANC-led government that is guilty of that. The people are suffering because of those cuts. Infrastructure is a greater priority than free higher education.

 

 

Afrikaans:

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Agb Voorsitter, wat help dit as ons studente en universiteite het, maar hulle het nie elektrisiteit, water of paaie nie.

Wanner hulle gradueer, sal daar ook nie werksgeleenthede wees nie, want die ekonomie sal vernietig wees weens die feit dat ons munisipaliteite in duie stort.

 

 

English:

 

That is a skewed priority. Currently, South Africa spends a higher proportion of its budget on basic education than most African countries and some developed countries. Yet, our primary education system was ranked 126th out of 138 countries in the world. Something is very wrong.

What is that something? That something is the corruption and mismanagement of the ANC-led government. [Interjections.]

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

Ek is ’n Vrystater. Ek wil die ANC opreg bedank. Ek wil die ANC opreg bedank dat hulle die mees korrupte persoon in Suid-Afrika, die grootste dief in Suid-Afrika, wat die Vrystaat in die grond in bestuur het, verwyder het as premier. Ek is bly dat hy nou

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die sekretaris-generaal van die ANC is, want nou kan hy die ANC se geld steel soos wat hy die Vrystaters se geld gesteel het. Hy kan die ANC in die grond in bestuur soos wat hy die Vrystaat in die grond in bestuur het.

 

 

Die mense van die Vrystaat ly as gevolg van Ace Magashule wat die hele provinsie rot en kaal besteel het. Hierdie land sal nie ekonomies voorentoe gaan voordat korrupsie nie werklik uitgeroei word nie.

 

 

Niemand sal die ANC ernstig opneem as hulle sê dat hulle korrupsie wil hok slaan terwyl hulle sekretaris-generaal Ace Magashule is nie. Raak van daardie man ontslae vir julle eie beswil. Ek dank u. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! There’s too much noise in the House.

 

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Chair, I agree with the Yiddish proverb, The heaviest baggage for a traveller is an empty purse. This truism

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represents the stark reality we face following a decade of ANC- sponsored malfeasance, bloating, wastage, corruption, looting, capture, and destructive, ideology-based, economic policy choices that have strangled the growth and development of our country.

 

 

The resultant heavy baggage requires fiscal consolidation and a commitment to reduce our deficit, inclusive of the sudden decision to introduce free higher education and to address a significant shortfall in revenue, by effecting expenditure reductions and increasing revenue without choking the goose that lays the golden egg. That is stifling our fragile economic growth recovery.

 

 

We made our position on the ANC’s Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals clear last week, to the effect that it provided no New Dawn but rather, represented a bitter pill for ordinary South Africans to municipalities to undercollect and over-estimate the collection of revenue. As a consequence, municipalities are

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drowning in debt of R43 billion, despite continual interventions.

 

 

We are concerned at the viability of our local government sphere. We are concerned that it is conditional grant allocations to provinces and municipalities that will bear the brunt of government’s need to cut and reprioritise spending. It is ordinary South Africans that must now carry the heaviest baggage now that the ANC has raided and emptied the purse. As a consequence, we note but we will not lend support to this Bill.

 

 

With all these problems, we must emphasise that that the functions have limited or no cost-recovery potential. Thus, provinces are largely dependent on transfers through the Division of Revenue Act. Yet, government has been forced to make adjustments that will negatively affect the ability of provinces to deliver health services and even basic education. These are major problems that we face today.

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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, your time has expired.

 

 

Mr W M MADISHA: I must emphasise that the ANC has not done well. It has actually failed for the past quarter of a century, and the people of our country need to understand this. [Interjections.]

 

 

Mr S N SWART: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, Minister, the Division of Revenue Bill indicates the share of nationally collected revenue between national, provincial and local spheres of government – that, after debt service costs have been provided for. Sadly, the amount allocated for debt service costs is more than that which is allocated to local government, and this obviously, is a concern for us.

 

 

The total baseline deductions from the budget will be

 

R26 billion, with transfers to provinces reduced by R5,2 billion and to local government by R3,2 billion. These reductions will also continue over the medium term.

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Whilst we appreciate that when one looks at the percentage these cuts are relatively small, as a percentage of the total allocations, the downward adjustment will, undoubtedly, delay certain planned infrastructure projects as they apply to mainly the infrastructure conditional grants. This is regrettable, considering that provinces and municipalities need to invest significantly in infrastructure to boost economic growth, to deal with inequality and poverty and, of course, to create jobs. While it is expected that large municipalities will offset some of the reductions in infrastructure grants by investing more of their own resources, this may not be feasible, given the financial constraints facing municipalities.

 

 

The human settlements development grant to provinces is reduced by R7,2 billion over the medium term. This will clearly slow delivery of new houses and serviced sites.

 

 

House owners need to be able to access the full value of their properties. It is unacceptable that a large number of houses – about 1 million, in total – built through state subsidies are

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not on the Feeds Registry, yet. As a result, owners cannot access the full value of their properties. Just think if owners were able to, and wanted to start a small business. If the properties were registered in their names, they could access capital to start those small businesses.

 

 

The ACDP thus welcomes the creation of the title deeds restoration grant. This will, hopefully, reduce this backlog more quickly. Eradicating this backlog would unlock an estimated R180 billion of estimated value for low-income houses. This needs to be supported.

 

 

We know that municipalities are facing financial and institutional problems, breakdowns in service and mounting debts. Nonpayment of their creditors is a symptom of deep underlying problems. We know water boards aren’t being paid. Eskom isn’t being paid. This results in problems for those institutions, as well.

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The committee focused on this issue in its report and in its past reports, as well. Sadly, little progress has been made to improve internal management of these structures, such as the municipalities, to ensure that funds transferred are used efficiently. I thank you. [Time expired.]

 

 

Ms D Z SENOKONYANE: Hon House Chair, Mr Deputy President, members of the executive council, hon members and our honoured guests up there, the budget season is upon us again with all its challenges. The division of revenue at any given time is not an easy task, and this time around it is an uphill for obvious reasons. The economy is playing games with us, a reality that we all have to acknowledge, but also to scrutinise as people in order to understand the processes and see if we can make a contribution. We are faced with a situation of very slow growth, whilst we also experience increasing national debt characterised by a shrinking national. Whatever we do therefore should take into account these factors.

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The National Treasury has no option but to try to allocate the available revenue to all spheres of government as efficiently as possible, and this is exactly what has been done. Allocations to both the provincial and municipal spheres of government have to be on the basis of need and available resources, and in doing so the social package has to be protected in order to address the needs of the poorest in our country. The redistributive nature of the revenue division continues to take into account the people who are struggling to cater even for the most basic needs on their own, which is why there is a visible bias towards the poor and rural areas.

 

 

It is a pro-poor budget which addresses the needs of those who rely solely on the public sector services such as education and health. We also need to appreciate the fact that this budget prioritises the funding of higher education, which has been an ongoing challenge over many decades. Higher education has continued to be a territory dedicated to the chosen few who can afford to pay their way towards benefitting. The majority of children, mainly blacks, have had to live with their dreams

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going up into flames not because they are incapable, but because of a historical culture of discrimination. Some of us are very optimistic about the future of higher education in this country, with students from the most disadvantaged communities finally getting the opportunity to achieve their dreams.

 

 

I just hope that the beneficiaries of this funding will embrace this and put serious effort on their studies in order to finally get what they have always longed for. The fact that only first year students will be funded is a good start as government does not have unlimited resources. Democracy alone cannot produce wealth but those who own the wealth of this country need to come on board and play a role.

 

 

The National Treasury allocates the equitable share to both the provincial and local government spheres, which have the responsibility to make equitable allocations to various departments and programmes. It should be noted that the dynamics within provinces differ and the allocation takes this into consideration. There are those provinces which are able to raise

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some own revenue while others are very rural, with no revenue base. Provinces are therefore in a better position to identify service delivery needs and it is up to them how they allocate the equitable share allocation from the National Treasury. They carry a lot of responsibilities with regard to providing services to the communities. They run clinics, hospitals, schools and including fee-free schools and other services. We have seen all provincial treasuries tabling their own budgets and the same story continues whereby a lot of reprioritisation had to come into play. One way or another, services have to be delivered.

 

 

In spite of all the challenges we welcome the equitable share allocation, and notably to the provinces and municipalities over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF. The conditional grants to these spheres though have experienced cuts which are part of the reprioritisation process and addressing the current revenue shortfalls. If we don’t do this, there remains the question of how we hope to fund those services we want to

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protect. Trade-offs is unavoidable in these circumstances even though we may not necessarily see things the same way.

 

 

A few days ago I listened to one of my favourite clowns making a lot of noise criticising the ANC for increasing the value-added tax, VAT. Allocations for conditional grants for provinces have experienced cuts as part of the optimal utilisation of available resources as government addresses the identified priorities, meaning that some services have to be reduced in favour of others. For instance, social expenditure cannot be compromised; otherwise we would not be able to honour commitments towards the most vulnerable. It is not gloom and doom though as there are some new grants that have been introduced namely, the title deeds backlog restoration grant which will help facilitate addressing of long standing backlogs in title deeds registration.

 

 

Community health services will also benefit through integration into the comprehensive human immunodeficiency virus, HIV, acquired immune deficiency syndrome, Aids, and tuberculosis, TB,

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grant. Social services have been protected, such as those for the school nutrition programme, bus subsidies and medicines. These are good initiatives in that what some of us take for granted such as going to school on an empty stomach or spending half your salary on public transport, is actually acknowledged as a huge burden to those who are most vulnerable in our society.

 

 

The infrastructure grants have been mainly affected and this, of course, cannot be a good thing in that, this is an area which we continuously emphasise as having the potential to create jobs and to boost the economy. Some of the areas of concern are: education infrastructure grant, human settlements development grant and the health facilities revitalising grant, which are key in terms of addressing some of the challenges. However, the reality is that with the limited available resources we are forced to make sacrifices. Therefore, if we must fund the social package, higher education and other priority programmes we have to find the money somewhere. Infrastructure projects generally

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get quite a big slice from the budget and therefore it makes sense that some of the cuts would target them.

 

 

Unfortunately, ordinary people do not speak the language of national, provincial or local government, but they simply want services to be delivered. It is therefore a positive step that they will receive the highest percentage in the equitable share over the MTEF. One of the difficulties at local government is the inability to collect own revenue for most of them, and even by the urban municipalities, while there are those which have no revenue sources whatsoever. It is known that ... I thank you, hon Chair. I support the Bill. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

 

 

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Chairperson, it is good that the public hearing has been conducted regarding this Bill in order to solicit the views of the people. Passing the Division of Revenue Bill is the beginning of service delivery to the people, failing which communities will suffer. The allocation of funds to three spheres of government will never be enough as long as corruption continues to ruin our economy. The municipalities are

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struggling, but we need to pay attention and guard against the irregularities and corruption that is always happening in these municipalities.

 

 

The outsourcing part of municipalities should be under control because you cannot afford to give a lot of money to one person and this very person just pays peanuts to the people that are working for him. The municipalities are the ones that should be given enough money so that they can deal with poverty because they are the nearest to the people on the grassroots level. The rural municipalities are where exactly people are staying and are suffering. The oversight that is always conducted over these allocations should be meaningful in the sense that now something should be done once anything wrong has been discovered. Strict actions should be taken against these culprits and they should return the money that has been stolen.

 

 

Our economy is struggling therefore we should be serious in curbing these corrupt activities. Again, the departments that have been allocated a lot of money should do likewise and

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deliver services to the people. These are the departments like Education and Health. All these departments should do a lot in order to pay attention and deliver services to our people because a lot of money has been allocated to them. So, it is now then that we hope that people will never suffer unless we don’t do anything serious to pay attention to their sufferings. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.

 

 

Mr L R MBINDA: Hon Chairperson and the hon members, the money that the state collects do not address the socioeconomic challenges of our people, obviously due to high levels of corruption, massive fruitless and wasteful expenditure, unauthorised expenditure and also ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, this is happening in all levels of government. A bigger portion of our revenue services is the apartheid debt that the PAC rejected from the onset. This is a debt that we are not supposed to pay as apartheid obviously was declared crime against humanity by the United Nations.

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This country is not even paying the capital amount borrowed, but we are still servicing the interests of this apartheid debt, and we are told that this debt that we are paying is for people that were also busy using chemicals to eliminate the African people. I think that it is very important for this government also, at least, to do this investigation because as Members of Parliament we need to know exactly the cause for this apartheid debt, because not all the countries have done that and even the experts are telling us that it is a debt that we were not even supposed to service. Therefore, I think that it is very important for this government, at least, to see to it that we deal with that. The increase in VAT obviously will always haunt the poor of the poorest, and we are calling for government at least to reconsider. It is either you tax more on the rich than taking from the have not, because whether we like it or not the poor will definitely be affected.

 

 

This should be a government investing more in education in order to generate the much needed skills for a growing economy. Thank you, Chair.

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Mr B R TOPHAM: Hon Chair, over the last number of years, the government of the day has made many mistakes, mistakes which all South African citizens have to pay for. The ANC has made the bed and we all have to sleep in this bed. It’s not a very big bed when you try to squeeze 60 million people into it.

 

 

One third of our people pay for the laundering of those sheets. One third lives off of grants and the other third are unemployed

— living with limited dignity having an uncertain future, a very stressful situation for all, no matter in which third of the population you may find yourself. As a country, our sheets are pretty dirty. We just can't keep up with the demands and needs of all our people and we need to create more opportunities for job creation.

 

 

Basic education continues to decline in South Africa, which makes the goal of moving from unemployment or living off of grants to being employed even more impossible for the majority of South Africans to achieve. The constitutional right to basic education remains under threat and we welcome the proposed

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recommendations which will make learner transport more efficient and hopefully aid in future years to get our children to school so that they may be employable someday.

 

 

Of great concern is the fact that, of our national budget, only 9% is being spent on local government. This is the sphere which affects most of the lives of South Africans directly and which has a vital role to play in delivering services and other constitutional necessities to the people. The high government debt arising from past inefficient and corrupt bloated government spending makes it impossible in this proposed Division of Revenue to allocate the badly needed funds to local government.

 

 

Rather than focusing on reducing the inefficiencies in spending in this budget, we have increased taxes, specifically in the form of increase in fuel levy and value-added tax, VAT. Every single South African whether you are part of the tax paying third, a dependent on grants or partly unemployed, are forced to pay more tax.

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Winston Churchill pointed out very clever in the past that there is no way to reduce the inequality gap in our society by increasing taxation.

 

 

Macro economic spending by the three spheres of government has a major role to play in combating the inequalities in society.

This Division of Revenue Amendment, Dora, Bill and the underlying spending will not be able to lift our people out of the hole in which they find themselves.

 

 

We need to reduce the size and waste of government and we need to sell off black holes which are sucking the light out of our future and put it in an unfair drain on our fiscus.

 

 

This Division of Revenue Bill will only ensure that the rich get poorer and the poor get poorer. We need to build an economy where we are all free to have our own beds and where we do not have to sleep in the beds made by somebody else.

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Mr House Chair, this is my last day in Parliament. If you allow me, I will say thank you and farewell to all my colleagues in both sides of the House. I am looking forward to see them in the future and wish all luck in building a constructive South Africa where the inequalities might be addressed. Thank you, Mr House Chair. [Applause.]

 

 

Mrs Y N PHOSA: Hon Chair, the hon Deputy President, the hon Minister Nene and other hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers present in this august House, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, indeed, it is a privilege to participate in this very important debate on the Division of Revenue Bill that was tabled in this House.

 

 

Members have come here in response to the Division of Revenue Bill, but the opposition, indeed, has not been very happy with some of the issues that they raised here, particularly your value-added tax, VAT, your 1% VAT, which is what hon member Mcloughlin alluded to. It is actually one activity that was unavoidable taking into consideration of the economic situation

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that we find ourselves in. But also, it is money that government had to find so that it can be in a position to address the budget shortfall that came as a result of the revenue collection shortfall.

 

 

The opposition is very opportunistic. If government had gone on to borrow more money, they were going to be the ones who complain to say, we have increased borrowings. But now, government has found an alternative way of addressing that, avoiding further debts for government. They are now also making noise. Actually, what is it that the opposition wants? We are confused. What do you want?

 

 

Well, hon members, in Basic Education, for instance, the School Nutrition Programme is providing nine million poor learners per annum. Now, our people should know that this government, the ANC government cares. The ANC government, indeed, is a caring government and is taking care of the poor. In other words, this Division of Revenue Bill is pro-poor. So, the poor people must know that we really care for them.

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But also of significance, I want the poor people out there to know that government child support grant has increased from R308 to R408. This is an illustration of the ANC government that is caring. [Interjections.]

 

 

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!

 

 

Mrs Y N PHOSA: I understand myself very well. But I would also like to reassure South Africans that the ANC government remains committed to improving the quality of Basic Education. Over the medium term, R3,8 billion is allocated to this grant to replace

82 inappropriate and unsafe schools, and provide water and sanitation to 325 and 286 schools respectively. In addition, the education infrastructure grant is allocated R31,7 billion to build new schools, upgrade and maintain existing infrastructure and provide school furniture.

 

 

Also, it is correct even if you can compare, it is correct and definitely right for our country future health outcomes that the National Health Insurance remains a priority of government. The

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National Health Insurance for the provision of universal health coverage remains a priority in this budget. It should be understood that in promoting this national priority, money was added to the National Health Insurance indirect grant. I know that your other area of concern is budget cuts, but you must also balance your acts by reading at what else was then to offset that. Now, I am here informing you that it should be understood that in promoting this national priority, money was added to the National Health Insurance indirect grant to deliver on testing and preparation necessary for the roll out of universal health coverage.

 

 

The reductions to the health sectors conditional grant are to the infrastructure grants both the direct one as well as the component of the indirect one. This is to streamline resources allocations in the sector and prioritise the maintenance of existing health infrastructure.

 

 

I think it is, hon Speaker, in this new dawn, economic growth is based on the need to boost employment, improve government

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service delivery, increase investment, stabilise state-owned enterprises and manage the government Wage Bill. I know, you don’t believe it, but it is a fact. This government as resolved by the 54th ANC Conference has the responsibility to revive the economy to ensure social protection of the poor and vulnerable in our society, we see as this ANC government, this opportunity to invite all sectors of society and fellow South Africans across political affiliations to join in this effort, moment of hope and the new dawn. Let us respond to the clarion call by the State President, thuma mina [send me]. Let’s respond to that clarion call and stop mourning about solutions that we have to find all us sitting here instead of criticising the solutions that we are bringing fourth without bringing alternative solutions. [Interjections.] I am not going to sit down.

Well, the DA pretends to be very worried and concerned about the budget cuts. Reductions to the provincial framework were mostly levied on conditional grants. What they are not saying is that the equitable share and conditional grants though, grew in real terms over the 2018 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF period.

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Hon members, over the next three years, that is, 2018-19, 2019- 20, 2020-21, government is projected to spend R5,416 trillion, relative to a revenue envelope of R4,837 trillion, with the bulk of these resources allocated in respect of non-interest allocations in the form of equitable share and conditional grant funding. Indeed, we are pleased with the final policy decision over the post-Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, pronouncement on fee-free higher education and training, for households earning below R350 000 per annum. With this few words, I would like to sit down. [Applause.]

 

 

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Speaker, again as all members have indicated that this Bill before the House does not just merely divide our nation’s public funds among the three spheres of government but it also provides for a profound redistribution of our nation’s resources. Taxes raised predominantly from the wealthy and mainly from urban areas are redistributed to fund services across the country.

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Transforming the prospects of rural areas where they fund schools, clinics and provide clean water for communities in some of the most remote parts of our country. Almost all of these grants and programmes in provinces and municipalities that are funded through the Division of Revenue Bill, are targeted to benefit the poor South Africans. Ranging from the National School Nutrition Programme which feeds nine million learners everyday, to the infrastructure grants that builds schools, roads and houses and provides water and electricity to those who previously did not have access to such services. This is indeed and I submit a strongly pro-poor division of revenue, contrary to what some of the members have said.

 

 

One example is that this division of revenue allocates more than twice as much per household to rural municipalities as it does to metros, transfer to rural municipalities average 10 500 per household during this year 2018-19, while the equivalent for metros is only 4 700. This recognises the greater ability of urban municipalities to raise their own revenues. Smaller and more rural provinces also receive larger per capital allocations

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than the urban provinces. With Northern Cape receiving an allocation per capital that is 70% larger than those in Gauteng, this is just an example to demonstrate what I have just said.

 

 

This Division of Revenue Bill also facilitates the transformation of our economy in society by directing scarce resources towards catalytic investments in human and physical capital. This includes measures to empower municipalities to reverse apartheid spatial development patterns, not only in our metropolitan municipalities, but also in our smaller cities.

 

 

These difficult conditions we find ourselves in include revenue collection in the current financial year which is about

R50 billion less than government had budgeted for. And at the same time we face mounting pressures for increased public spending, including a commitment to implement fee-free higher education. In this context, difficult decisions had to be made and as many of you have commented on the growth of several of the grants and programmes funded though this Bill had to be reduced. It’s actually the growth that has been reduced and not

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the baseline allocations. But even the details of these reductions are a reminder of the scale of the programmes funded through the Division of Revenue Bill.

 

 

Although R18,4 billion is reduced from provincial allocations over the medium term, this is only 1% of the massive

R1,8 trillion allocated to provinces to deliver education, health, social development and other services over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF. And allocations to provinces continue to grow at an average rate of 6,9% a year. Similarly, only 3,5% of transfers to local government were reduced, and these were offset by significant additions and the Chair of Committee on Appropriations has indicated this which are additions to the local government equitable share. As a result, allocations to local government grow at an average rate of 7,5% a year over the medium term. Even when we have had to reduce the rate of growth in some of our programmes, we are still investing vast sums of money in the development of our communities.

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So, I don’t want to bore you with the highlights a lot of people have spoken about it but one of those that I think are worth mentioning is that additions to the health grant to accelerate the implementation of National Health Insurance, NHI. The other one will be new Title Deeds Restoration Grant which most members have also welcomed which is introduced to eradicate the backlog of title deeds that have not been issued to the beneficiaries of state subsidised homes. Which will ensure these beneficiaries can enjoy the full economic benefits of the land and homes they have been allocated.

 

 

The provision of disaster relief of R6 billion expanding of government’s urban development reforms beyond metropolitan municipalities which also begins to change the way intermediate cities are funded; and enabling, let me stress this that we enable the credit-worthy municipalities to leverage their grant funds as part of responsible borrowing strategies. So we will not make a mistake of forcing municipalities just to borrow but we are saying those that are credit worthy will be supported in order to borrow against their own grants. We are also focusing

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on local government capacity building where most members have spent a lot of time in this debate reflecting on the many challenges facing governments across all three spheres, so building capacity and supporting municipalities in that space becomes critical.

 

 

Let me thank the Standing Committees on Appropriations for their thorough yet speedy consideration of this Bill. This oversight is vital in ensuring that government is held to account for how we allocate and use public funds. This division of revenue is highly redistributive, taking revenue collected from the wealthier parts of our country and allocating it to where there is a need for government services, across rural and urban areas. The ultimate impact of these allocations depends however on how provincial governments and municipal councils use them.

 

 

Each provincial legislature and municipal council is responsible for adopting their own budget. The choices made in those budgets, as well as their success in implementing them, will determine what impact the funds we allocate today will have on

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the lives of our citizens. All of us here have an important role, once this Bill is enacted, in monitoring and overseeing its successful implementation. With this ongoing work in mind, I commend this Bill to the House for consideration. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

 

Debate concluded.

 

 

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

 

 

Division demanded.

 

 

House divided.

 

 

Question agreed to.

 

 

Bill accordingly read a second time.

 

 

CELEBRATING THE CENTENARY OF N R MANDELA BY PROMOTING AND DEEPENING A HUMAN RIGHTS CULTURE ACROSS SOCIETY

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(Subject for Discussion)

 

 

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam

 

Speaker, colleagues and fellow South Africans, the debate today provides an occasion to take stock of where the country is in our quest to deepen a human rights culture and advance especially socioeconomic rights to reverse the devastating effects of poverty, inequality and economic deprivation which are the direct consequence of colonialism and apartheid which constitutes the primary focus of my contribution to this important debate.

 

 

Sepedi:

 

Bapedi ba re, “Tsie e fofa ka mošwang.” Ba a buša ba re, “Ngwana, re lla tlala e sego phefo.” Ke ka mokgwa woo mobu o ilego wa tšeelwa setšhaba sa gaborena ka dikgoka moo baganka ba go swana le boKgoši Mampuru II ba ilego ba bolawa ka tsela ye šoro ka go kgokwa ka thapo ba hlobotšwe. E be e le tsela ya mmušo wa hlaolele wa makoloniale wa go goboša, go tlontlolla le go nyatša e sego fela baetapele le magoši a rena, empa le

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setšhaba sa gaborena ka kakaretšo, sebakwa e le wona mobu. Ba be ba gapeletša Bathobaso go lefa motšhelo mobung wa gabobona le go ba dira makgoba ka go ba šomiša ntle le tefelo gona moo mobung woo ba tswaletšwego go wona - woo ba ilego ba buša ba o tšeelwa.

 

 

English:

 

In 1998 President Nelson Mandela attested to the significance of socioeconomic rights as an important pillar of human rights to redress the global challenge of poverty when he stated, and I quote:

 

 

The very right to be human is denied every day to hundreds of millions of people as a result of poverty, the unavailability of basic necessities such as food, jobs, water and shelter, education, health care and a healthy environment. The failure to achieve the vision contained in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights finds dramatic expression in the contrast between wealth and poverty which characterises the divide between the countries of the North and the countries of the South and within individual countries in all hemispheres.

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Our icon Nelson Mandela led the historical process of rewriting the South African constitutional script that changed the course of history of a country which until today, is still reeling from the aftermaths of centuries of colonialism and apartheid. In responding to the question on land yesterday, His Excellency, President Vho Matamela Cyril Ramaphosa had the following to say and I quote:

 

 

Land is central to human existence ... for millennia it has supported life and enabled the creation and the development of societies and made economic activity possible. It is fundamental to the dignity and well-being of our people. The dispossession of the land of the indigenous people of this country is therefore what I characterise as the original colonial sin that continues to constrain the realisation of the potential of our people. The return of the land to those who work it is fundamental to the transformation of our society and it is critical if we are to improve the lives of the poor. In this, the Year of Nelson Mandela, we need to work together to ensure his vision for land reform is

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realised. This Parliament and government should therefore be committed to the implementation of a comprehensive land reform programme that corrects the historical injustices of land dispossession, provides land to the poor in both rural and urban areas, strengthens the property rights of all, increases agricultural production and improves food security.

 

The land dispossession culminated in the Union of South Africa Act of 1909, which created a State constituted by the combined Boer-British white population to the exclusion of the indigenous African people. The Union was followed immediately by the Natives Land Act of 1913 which stripped Africans of their land and forced them into servitude and slavery. They became labourers in the land of their birth and tilled the soil and dug the minerals from the belly of their dispossessed land to enrich their colonial masters and their mother countries. In this way they planted the seed of poverty and deprivation that defined the destiny of the majority of the indigenous people of this country which the Constitution and the Bill of Rights seek to undo.

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It was in the Africans’ Claims that the ANC unequivocally demanded the redistribution of land to redress the dispossession of land which was masterminded through the Natives Land Act of 1913, through which a mere under 13% of the land was allocated to Africans against the 87% given to the white minority. The resolution of the 54th National Conference of the ANC on the expropriation of land without compensation is the reinstatement of the policy stance on this matter.

 

 

The expropriation will be undertaken within the confines of the Constitution and the law and we will also defer to legal jurisprudence on the matter where we need to. The project we undertook two years ago on the assessment of the impact of socioeconomic rights jurisprudence on the lived experiences of South Africans attested to the significance of jurisprudence in reversing the deeply rooted socioeconomic inequality in our society.

 

 

After the Nationalists government ascended to power in 1948, it pursued the trajectory of the colonial racial oppression and

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promoted the ideology of Afrikaner ethnic and white racial dominance which put these groups’ rights and privileges above those of the African majority, Indians and Coloureds. It is abundantly clear that the DA is founded on the same ideology as the Nationalist Party ... [Interjections.] ... as attested by the defence of colonialism and colonial legacy by its embattled Western Cape Premier, Helen Zille, who also referred to fellow black South Africans from the Eastern Cape as economic refugees and its confused stance on the question of expropriation of land without compensation as articulated in this House yesterday by its leader, Mmusi Maimane, betraying the DA’s reactionary and regressive policies.

 

 

The National Party, enacted, among others, The Group Areas Act of 1950 which preserved affluent and usable areas for whites. It was in terms of this law that Johannesburg, including the Chancellor House where Mandela and Tambo practiced as lawyers, like many other urban centres, was declared a “whites only” area.

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All the colonial and apartheid constitutions and laws adopted by the Nationalist government safeguarded and protected white minority interest and blatantly disregarded human rights, in order to advance the state’s power of suppressing liberation movements, of banning political activity by the disenfranchised, of enforcing draconian laws of detention without trial, of subverting the independence of the judiciary and the courts; and of implementing economic policies that protected the interest of whites exclusively. It was through this protection that whites were the beneficiaries of the social security framework that was geared to alleviate the plight of the so-called poor whites whose situation was the direct or indirect consequence of the Anglo-Boer War, properly construed as the South African war as it involved the sacrifices of all South Africans across the racial divide and other wars in which all South African participated.

 

 

Not only were Africans excluded from the economic mainstream, but also from its social security, thus leading to a cycle of poverty, and which our Bill of Rights seeks to undo through the

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recognition of and progressive realisation of socioeconomic rights. Human Rights have defined the struggle for freedom and justice led by the ANC over the years since its formation over

106 years of its existence. The ANC’s Bill of Rights of 1923, the Africans’ Claims adopted at its 1943 Annual Conference and the Freedom Charter of 1955 became seminal points of reference during the multiparty negotiations which yielded our democratic Constitution and its Bill of Rights which entrenches enforceable socioeconomic rights.

 

 

During the debate today and other events lined up to commemorate Human Rights Day and as well as the Nelson Mandela centenary, fellow compatriots, we will hear of the many programmes implemented to ensure the progressive realisation of the rights in the Bill of Rights including measures geared to advance radical socioeconomic transformation as aptly articulated by the National Development Plan.

 

 

Amongst the notable milestones of the ANC-led government are the following: One, we have repealed several apartheid laws and

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built democratic institutions including Institutions Supporting Constitutional Democracy such as the South African Human Rights Commission which has a mandate to monitor the progressive realisation of socioeconomic rights; two, the South African government acceded to the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights on 12 January 2015. Accession to the covenant enhances opportunities for citizens to shape dialogue and actions around the realisation of socioeconomic and cultural rights in South Africa; three, over the past 22 years,

2,8 million completed houses and over 1 million serviced sites, were delivered, allowing approximately 20 million people access to accommodation and a fixed asset, extended social security to over 70 million South Africans including children who also benefit from free basic education and school nutrition; four, government has committed itself to providing free higher education and training by making available an additional

R57 billion to fund the phasing in of free tertiary education for students from households earning less than R350 000 a year; five, South Africa has the largest antiretroviral, ARV, therapy

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programme in the world, today. At the end of March 2016, there were 3 407 336 clients remaining on antiretroviral therapy.

 

 

As you join in this important debate, let us be inspired by the profound words of President Mandela when he addressed the joint sitting of the Parliament during the occasion to celebrate the

10 years of our constitutional democracy when he stated the following ... [Time expired.] Thank you very much, Speaker.

 

 

Mr I M OLLIS: Speaker, in 2017 at the AB Xuma Primary School, in Soweto, 87 pupils were raped or sexually assaulted by the scholar patrolman who was supposed to be looking after their safety. He was finally caught out and arrested. It has now come to light that the police investigator appointed to investigate their case has now himself allegedly raped and sexually assaulted two of the victims during the investigation. Let’s remember that these victims are school children in primary school!

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On 26 September last year, a gunman entered the Edalinceba Primary School, in Duduza in Gauteng at 11am, walked straight through to the deputy principal’s office and shot him dead.

 

 

On the llth of September 2017, a video went viral on the internet showing a school principal and two teachers gang raping a child in the school in the Esikhawini district in KwaZulu- Natal. Eventually, a second video of a separate rape surfaced in the same area and seven teachers were eventually suspended.

 

 

On the 29th of September 2017, a Brakpan Grade 2 child at the age of seven, shocked teachers and pupils by bringing a loaded gun to school to shoot a “bully” he claimed to have been tormenting him.

 

 

In 2017, it came to light that 16 pupils fell pregnant over the past three years at Bothitong High School, near Kuruman. In the first quarter of 2017, the Northern Cape Basic Education Head of Department appointed as a Head Master of Kakamas High School, a

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teacher who had previously impregnated a learner at that same school.

 

 

We hear daily about gang rape, murder, stabbing, sexual assaults, drugs and gangs the list goes on and nobody does anything about it. We have to force government to acknowledge that our schools are unsafe places for our children. Instead of hearing about Frantz Fanon, all about Oliver Tambo or Sobukwe, let’s make our schools safe now in the year and now. [Applause.]

 

 

With Human Rights Day, the DA will be launching our safe schools campaign. We are going to fight for the rights of the children. We have identified six very practical steps that you can implement right now, this year, to make our 26 000 schools safe places, because our leaders, like the Ministers of Justice, the Minister of Social Development, the Minister of Police and the Minister of Basic Education are doing almost nothing, dololo, to fix the scourge of raping in our schools across the nine provinces ... [Applause] ... you especially!

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Like the four horse riders of the biblical apocalypse, they are presiding over the destruction of our innocent youth. But, we can stop them and we must fix this. Our children deserve better! The DA’s Safe Schools campaign can and will vastly improve safety at our schools if we implement it properly.

 

 

Firstly, the Department of Justice – you sir! Must make sure the National Register for Sex Offenders is properly maintained so that our provincial education departments and the South African Council of Educators, SACE, can vet every teacher against that register. I’m told by people who know that there are virtually no names on the register. The Justice Minister of Justice over there is sitting on his hands!

 

 

Secondly, the Department of Social Development must collect information on disciplinary hearings and properly maintain the Child Protection Register and provincial education departments and SACE must vet every teacher against the register. [Applause] This is actually a legal requirement of the Children’s Act!

Guess what? There are virtually no names on that register

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either. The Minister of Social Development is sitting on her hands.

 

 

Thirdly, the SACE must be revamped and properly capacitated. It is supposed to vet and investigate teachers suspected of unethical or illegal behaviour, but it does not have the staff to do so. Two hundred and forty eight, cases had to be carried over from last year because they couldn’t finalise them. South African Council of Educators must be able to investigate the abuse of learners by teachers and to properly vet new teachers or teachers who move to a different province.

 

 

When I questioned SACE in the committee, they revealed that they often don’t get the offending teachers file until the teacher has moved or been re-employed in another province. So, they can sexually or physical assault children all over again.

 

 

Worse still, I now hear a rumoured that provincial officials don’t want to hand over the files of disciplinary hearings at

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all, because they are protecting their guilty colleagues. The Minister of Basic Education is sitting on her hands!

 

 

Fourthly, adequate, South African Police Service, SAPS, resources must be provided to patrol areas around schools where there is trouble they must be properly trained to work with children. Specialised gang units must be introduced and trained in the role that gangs play in school violence. The local community must be involved because they will keep an eye out and report trouble.

 

 

Fifthly, key staff members must be declared an essential service. In Soweto and in Eldorado Park last year, the DA received complaints from parents whose children were abandoned at school during school hours because teachers went off to unscheduled South African Democratic Union, SADTU, meetings during school hours. Under a DA government, no child will be left unsupervised in a school.

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Sixthly, the Western Cape’s Safe Schools Call Centre, 0800 45 46 47, which is for reporting school safety issues must be replicated in all nine provinces with posters and letters to parents. The Western Cape’s call centre allows teachers, staff, learners and parents to report violence, abuse, rape - are you listening Minister? Alcohol and drug abuse, vandalism and corruption.

 

 

Finally, the DA is going to push the four riders of the ANC apocalypse off their rusty duties to do their jobs, protecting children at school. Any Minister who says they have done enough

- are you listening, Ministers - about safety - we have done enough about safety! That Minister is lying and should be fired. The time to act is today. [Applause.]

 

 

We will be launching our DA School Safety petition next week, inviting parents, teachers, school governing bodies to sign it. I invite the Minister of Basic Education to be the first person to sign the petition and fix the scourge in South African

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schools. I thank you. [Applause.]

 

 

Mr W M MADISHA: Thank you, Speaker and the EFF for agreeing. The struggle and life of our founding President centred on a struggle for the attainment of human dignity and fundamental democratic and human rights. As such, our Constitution rightly recognises the injustices of our past, pays homage to those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land and creates the framework within which the divisions of the past may be healed. And a society established based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights.

 

 

Speaker, our constitutional order is underpinned by its Bill of Rights. Some of these rights are political and civil in nature and others are socioeconomic in nature, but no less important. It is in the progressive realisation of our socioeconomic rights that we will ensure that we achieve a society within which the divisions of the past are healed and of a society based on social justice, dignity and equality.

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Our constitution is clear; the state must respect, protect, promote and fulfil the rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights. It is in the respecting, promoting and fulfilling the doing, the giving effect to the Bill of Rights particularly, the socioeconomic rights that the ANC regime has failed.

 

 

The high level panel acknowledges that failure. But instead of honestly acknowledging its failures the ANC has blamed and soiled our constitutional order and turned upon our founding fathers including Madiba and soiled their legacy without accepting of responsibility for the failures in achieving our aspirational socioeconomic rights so that they can be achieved, we risk possible never achieving a united society based on human dignity and social justice, equality and in which the divisions of our past are healed.

 

 

I must as I go down emphasise one thing that they are some amongst us dear members who shall forever, frequently raise the name of Madiba and say we are doing this and quote Nelson Mandela just because they are campaigning instead of admitting

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that Madiba belongs to all of us. That must be understood – not a particular group. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

 

 

Mr X NGWEZI: Hon Speaker, the IFP would like to stress the importance of observing Human Rights Day. We would like to do so particularly in light of this country’s specific history of gross human rights violations.

 

 

The Bill of Rights embeds the rights of all people in our country in an enduring affirmation of the democratic values of human dignity, equality and freedom. However, inequality, by its endemic nature in South Africa, potentially results in the negation and violation of most basic rights guaranteed within the Bill of Rights.

 

 

I would imagine that our collective goal, to which we all aspire as politicians despite political backgrounds, is the achievement of a free and equal society, where all enjoy protection of gross violations of human rights. It would seem that this is not always the case.

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“To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity", those were the words of his Excellency the late great former President Nelson Mandela.

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, the 21st of March happens to also mark the day the IFP was established 43 years ago. Founded and established of course by his Excellency Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi. In doing so he also established more than 6 000 schools in the KwaZulu-Natal, one such school was Mashiyamahle High School in the KwaMaphumulo area.

 

 

Why one will single out this particular school, some may ask. It is because it is at this particular school in the year 2014 that allegations were brought about of a possible cheating syndicate for the Matric examinations of that year.

 

 

The allegations and charges were made, pupils’ results were later withheld as a direct consequence of these allegations but the department has never followed up on the matter, leaving the school, the pupils and their families in perpetual limbo for

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almost four years now. The issue has not been dealt with to finality yet the lives of the affected 115 young people are on a complete standstill.

 

 

They are unable to move on with their lives; unable to further their studies; find employment or anything progressive for that matter. The school and other organisations have on countless occasions made enquiries on the matter to be met with no action. Four years now, where these young people’s human right to further their education as enshrined in section 29(b) of the Bill of Rights has been unjustifiably limited.

 

 

Human rights are important in the relationships that exist between individuals and the government that has power over them. It is up to the government to protect and promote human rights and I’m afraid that this government has failed these young people. Their right to human dignity has been infringed.

 

 

I can only imagine the frustration that they have had to live with from that period until today. To go back to the

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aforementioned words of Nelson Mandela, these young people’s very humanity has been challenged, and we simply cannot sit back and watch on the matter. The IFP calls on the government to act and finalise this matter. Thank you. [Applause.]

 

 

Mr S C MNCWABE: Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members, let me start by quoting what President Mandela said and I quote: "To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity"

 

 

Before 1994 the doctrine of Parliament sovereignty was ruling this country and according to this doctrine, Parliament could pass any law it wished and no person or institution, even the court of law could challenge such laws.

 

 

Before 1994, human rights violations were an acceptable norm of government. It was therefore not possible for the court of law to declare an Act of Parliament invalid because it violates human rights. A mere majority of the whites only Parliament

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could write or rewrite the law and invade human rights without constraint.

 

 

However, Madam Speaker, in 1994 a Bill of Rights was put in place to safeguard human rights, ending centuries of the state sponsored abuse. The courts were given power to declare invalid any law or conduct inconsistent with the Bill of Rights or the Constitution. The doctrine of Parliament sovereignty was replaced by the doctrine of constitutional supremacy.

 

 

The strong central government of the past was replaced by a democratic government voted by all the South African citizens eligible to vote, a system of government based on the will of the people, a nonracial, nonsexist democratic government, and we achieved all this under the leadership of President Mandela.

 

 

Hon Speaker, as we celebrate all these achievements as a country, let us not ignores the fact that some pockets of resistance on human rights violation still exist in our society.

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I will mention a well-known coffin case as an example, as leaders of society we still have a huge task to continue influencing our people to accept each other regardless of race. In fact, the late Lion of the Midlands and a struggle icon Ubaba Harry Gwala once said and I quote: “There are only two races on earth, the human race and the animal race,” clearly Madam Speaker, no human being belongs to the animal race.

 

 

Again, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, the former President of Zambia once said “the man is not important because of his colour, but in our view because he is the image of God and no one has the right to defy that".

 

 

Today we would like to salute all those human rights lawyers who fought so hard against the injustices of apartheid laws. Some of them lost their lives. I speak of the late practising attorney of Umlazi in Durban, Ubaba Griffix Mxenge and his wife, the late Chief Justice Pius Langa, the late Mr Archie Gumede, the practising attorney of Claremont in Durban, the Mandela and Tambo Attorneys and others.

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In conclusion, let me congratulate one of our hon members, who have continued with the campaign for human rights throughout the African continent, the hon Nqabayomzi Lawrence Nkwankwa for being the co-founder and Chairman of the African Parliamentarians Association for Human Rights, well done Tshawe.

 

 

Finally, let me quote what hon former President Mandela said and I quote: “The sun shall never set on so glorious a human achievement" Thank you very much.

 

 

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker, much has been achieved with regard to first generation human rights since we attained freedom in 1994. The rights to freedom of speech and association are now rights that most of us enjoy albeit with several challenges that we can still attend to.

 

 

However, many would agree that despite the significant progress on the second generation human rights, our country is still grappling with the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment.

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The critical question therefore, is how South Africa should carry forward Madiba’s legacy in the context of the human rights challenges that we still face. More pointedly, how should each one of us carry forward Mandela’s legacy.

 

 

Former President Kgalema Motlanthe posed this question more eloquently in his condolence speech on the passing of Madiba here in this House in 2013, he said and I quote: “As the one chapter is closing on the life of this lovable revolutionary, another is opening” prefaced by the question whether Mandela’s remarkable contribution to human progress will simply pass into historical memory like that of great men and women before him or whether it will occasion a leap of faith in those with the power to make a difference to the abject social experience of the overwhelming number of the world’s people in whom Mandela’s life was bedded.

 

 

It is in this context and for this reason that we have decided to take a leap of faith by exporting the principles of democracy and human rights to the rest of the African continent; working

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together with a group of strong leaders like Sibusiso Mncwabe of the NFP, David Katete from Malawi, hon Maredadi from Zimbwabwe and hon Nkomo from Zambia. We have established a network of young Parliament for human rights.

 

 

We do this because we understand that human rights violations in Africa remain a daily occurrence even though the African Charter on human and people’s rights, which came into effect on the 21st October 1986, has a serious limitation. It has a serious clawback clause, for instanceThis regional convention is subject to the authority and jurisdiction of national law and has to be compatible with it, which poses a challenge for many countries that attempted to comply with it.

 

 

In the same speech as I close, former President Motlanthe poses another pertinent question, he says, “the litmus test however is whether the inheritors of Mandela’s dream, heirs to his vision and adherents of his philosophy, will be able to make the dream for which he lived come to pass in the fullness of time.”

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Sinoloxanduva [we have that responsibility.] We thank you very much.

 

 

Afrikaans:

 

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Adjunkspeaker, die Vryheidsfront Plus is verbind tot menseregte. Ons glo dat menseregte bevorder moet word en ons glo ook in gelyke regte. As ons egter hier kom en ons sê dat ons menseregte erken, dan begin dit by die aspek van wedersydse respek.

 

 

Ek sê dit weer ens ek sal altyd hier sê dat Suid-Afrika moet leer om wedersydse respek vir mekaar te hê omtrent hulle geskille, verskille, en hulle verskillende tale en kulture.

 

 

English:

 

I understand that quite a lot of hon members come to this podium and then they quote what Nelson Mandela said but let me give you a quote as well. Speaking at a rally in Cape Town on the day of his release, Nelson Mandela said in concluding his address and I quote:

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“I wish to quote my own words during my trial in 1964. They are as true today as they were then. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination...”

 

 

What we are experiencing in this House, especially when it comes to the land issue, we are experiencing black domination. That is what you are trying to do. And I want to say to the hon Minister of Justice and Correctional Services.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members. Order! Let the member speak. Hon members don’t scream and shout at the member. Please, let the member speak.

 

 

Dr P J GROENEWALD: It is quite clear that the hon Minister didn’t listen carefully what the hon President said yesterday. He said and he agrees that if we want to handle the situation and to deal with the land issue. We must recognise that the people who owe the land at this moment must be respected and

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that they have owned the land in a respective and on a true hardworking way.

 

 

Again, let me quote you also what the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights says in article 17, everyone has a right to own property alone as well as in association with others. No one shall be arbitrary deprived of his property. If you want to be honest on human rights recognise all the articles and don’t be selective because then you are nothing else and you are hypocrite. I thank you.

 

 

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, often, we are subjected to a dominant lumpent liberal narrative that seeks to isolate Mandela from a generation and speak of him as though he was a man who picked himself up by his own shoelaces, yet Mandela belonged to a generation of outstanding Pan-Africanists such as Lemebede, Mda, Majombozi, Sobukwe and Tambo.

 

 

In fact, the 21st March is bout Sharpeville Day. The day the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania, PAC, led demonstration across the

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country against pass laws; the same pass book that Mandela burned to ashes in protest against the apartheid regime.

 

 

The origins of these pass laws have to do with maintaining and sustaining the land dispossession of black people. Pass laws epitomise that shameful, murderous, sexist, criminal and genocidal project against people of colour over centuries.

 

 

The 21st March should therefore mean that, the foundation of Human of Rights, the basis to be human rests on access to the land the ground upon which one stands to claim dignity and humanity. To deny anyone of land is to reject their humanity, treating them as permanent foreigners in the land of their birth]. Without land we live on our knees permanently as perpetual beggars.

 

 

Imagine the right to vote, the rights to freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly, but on whose land and also the right to dignity, but how if we are landless? Many who are fuelling the swart gevaar panic try to bastardise this pursuit as a hatred

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driven revenge against white people but revenge would be about instituting a systematic racial discrimination against whites. If driven by revenge we would be sending the dogs, the nyalas, the ganda-gandas and security forces armed with fatal ammunition to forcefully remove white people from the land as apartheid and colonisation did.

 

 

Yet, the genuine heart of blackness always everywhere in the world is elevated its own assaulted humanity, stretched forth in hand of forgiveness. It always rose from the bottomless dungeons of so great a human evil as apartheid and colonisation and sought to rebuild in forgiveness against hatred.

 

 

Mandela’s legacy is precisely rooted in this gesture, a human gift. The gift to forgive oppressors who caused a damage of unimaginable proportions, yet, 24 years after democracy, have we found that the oppressors are incapable of accepting a gift from the oppressed. Could a people who despise you ever accept a human gift from you? Or they will treat you forever with the

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same distrust that prisons their soul in their evil history of apartheid?

 

 

Is the oppressor even capable of human remorse and repentance if the subjects of their assault are those they see as nonhuman? If so, where is the evidence of remorse? Where is the material demonstration of acceptance of a crime against humanity?

 

 

We are here today, and we are still seeking the return of the land without anyone wishing white people away in hate; their murder, their punishment, imprisonment, expulsion or war, yet, the dominant voices that come from their ranks, even those who claim to learn from Mandela, seem only capable of possession, domination and dispossession.

 

 

Perhaps what they are really fearful of is a truly equal society where more black people own land than white people. It is the black people who are the majority. For us who learn from Mandela, we will rebuild a truly equal society in which the

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foundation for human rights and the humanisation of black people is based on access to the land.

 

 

So, flee to Australia if you want, you may even go back to Europe, but you must know that you are running away from yourselves, from confronting your own incapacity to show remorse in exchange to a human gift of forgiveness.

 

 

In the name of Mandela; we will expropriate land without compensation for a truly equal human society, a truly human society and we are not going to retreat from that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

 

 

Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, the rights to human dignity is arguably the most important a fundamental right enshrined in the Constitution. It is the one right that logically precedes and sustains all other human rights. It is one of the founding values of our democracy and constitutional order and it infuses and permeates the whole of our social and legal order.

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When human dignity is not valued and respected, not promoted and protected, there is no basis for human rights and consequently can be no human rights culture.

 

 

Why then, is the human dignity of countless women and children, threatened and violated daily with the approval of this Parliament often in the most brutal and inhumane ways? It is alarming that a Parliament that is alarming that a Parliament that says it earnestly desires to promote and deepen human rights and a human rights culture, recently passed legislation that not only legalises online pornography, but facilitates greater access to vile and degrading forms of pornography.

 

 

Who can honestly believe that members of this House really regard the right to human dignity as in alienable when degrading and dehumanising sexual exploitation has been legalised for the sake of commercial entertainment? What is the current rand value of human dignity in South Africa? Is there no one else in this House who is prepared to defend the priceless status of human dignity?

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You have heard repeatedly that scientific research shows that pornography use physically changes the human brain, making pornography users subconsciously cognitively register other people not as human beings but as objects.

 

 

Pornography use destroys moral reasoning and the ability to recognise the humanity of others. It has been scientifically proven that hardcore mainstream adult pornography causes some men to perpetrate sexual violence on women and children. So, mainstream adult pornography can and does directly impact the lives of women and children who never use pornography themselves.

 

 

Research has shown that pornography drives the demand for prostitution and this is our big issue now which in turn drives the demand for sex trafficking. Prostitution reduces human beings to commercial objects, valued for their utility for the temporary sexual gratification of another.

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Decriminalising prostitution will condone the violation of human dignity for the purposes of commercial exploitation effectively accepting that in South Africa, human dignity can be bought or dispensed with at a price, and in the process, increase sex trafficking and reduce none of the harms of prostitution.

 

 

In S v Jordan, the Constitutional Court stated that ... my goodness, wow. Is this House really okay with the fact that in South Africa human dignity is for sale? Thank you. [Time Expired.]

 

 

Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Members of the Executive, hon members, hon members of the public, this year, in 2018, we celebrate the 100 anniversary of the birth of one of our greatest leaders of our country, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. As we celebrate his centenary, not only as the people of South Africa, but also as a continent, and as the broader global community.

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We pay tribute to the contribution that he made over the course of his 95 years, to the struggle for freedom and for building humane social relations across the globe. Hon Deputy Speaker, “make poverty history,” is also a quote inspired by the late Tata Madiba, in whose honor this debate is dedicated to. On the

3 February 2005, the first democratically elected President of the Republic of South Africa, Tata Madiba, made a rousing speech in London, in the United Kingdom, in front of thousands of people. The address was to the “Make poverty history campaign.” In his speech he said that:

 

 

As long as poverty, injustice and gross inequality persist in our world, none of us can truly rest. Millions of people in the world’s poorest countries remain imprisoned, enslaved, and in chains. They are trapped in prison of poverty. It is time to set them free.

 

 

Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings. Overcoming poverty is not a

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gesture of charity; it is an act of justice. It is the protection of the fundamental human right, the right to dignity and a decent life. While poverty persists, there is no true freedom.

 

 

We have July 18, Nelson Mandela Day, recognised by the United Nations, to do what we can, to make poverty history in our own communities. I’d like to applaud one small NGO who together with a male choir have started a project called, Project Raven, to feed the poorest of the poor communities. They started in 2016, taking R200 food parcels to feed 5000 families at all the small towns along the N1 here in the Western Cape.

 

 

Their volunteers sacrifice their time and money to assist in making this possible. Last year, they went along the N7, going from town to town, giving out 3000 food parcels, and this year they are aiming to take 5000 food parcels along the N2. These volunteers play their part in making poverty history. I would like to mention two incidents that leads to deep poverty and

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that can be changed by human action, as Tata Mandela mentioned, “an act of justice”.

 

 

Here, in the Western Cape, is a hard working family, who works the land to make a living. Unfortunately, their water supply had been cut off by the owner of the land, who is supposed to share his property with them. The department, in that particular area, had helped, but they did not bring in the promised pump that is strong enough to pump the water upwards to their fruit crops.

Without the fruit, they do not have anything to sell; without anything to sell, they do not have an income. So, this keeps them in poverty.

 

 

This province needs to seriously eradicate racism, to stop looking at always supporting the rich and ignoring the poor. [Applause.] The second example I would like to mention, is one close to my heart. Our hon President, Cyril Ramaphosa, said in his state of the nation address that, by the end of this year, our deaf matrics will write their first national senior exam in SA Sign Language, SASL. [Applause.]

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Much as this should have been a happy moment for me, it is also a sad moment for me. Why do I say that? Our government officials in the Department of Basic Education, ignores the deaf who are experts and fluent users of SASL and would rather use their so- called experts, who are not deaf, who do not use or know or are fluent in SASL. These so-called experts have brought in videos from American Sign Language and British Sign Language, to be used in the exam, and they said that it is with the approval of the Department of Basic Education’s Director-General.

 

 

This is like throwing Swahili to our hearing matrics who have never studied that language. An example like this, keeps our vulnerable people in poverty. It robs our deaf adults who are experts in SASL of their right to dignity and to live a decent life, by being able to work hand in hand with Department of Basic Education government officials.

 

 

Instead, their struggle for a better education to be able to participate and give consultation, is thrown in their face I hope; I hope, that the hon President, hon Minister and hon

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Deputy Minister and the Committee of Basic Education will seriously look into that. It is in Tata Madiba’s words where he says:

 

 

Without language, one cannot talk to people and understand them; one cannot share their hopes and aspirations, grasp their history, appreciate their poetry or savour their songs

 

 

Let us be able to savour our song with SA African Sign Language. [Applause.] Government’s 20 Year Review reflects that statistically that our country has made progress in providing social services such as healthcare, education and housing to millions of South Africans who never had access to these under apartheid. Over eight million school children were now beneficiaries of no-school fees, while nine million school children were were being fed through the school’s feeding scheme.

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In addition to free basic healthcare, more than 1 500 healthcare facilities had been built, and existing ones were revitalised over the past 20 years. One of the major challenges that confronted the democratic government, was the rapid rise in the HIV epidemic. The country’s improved response to HIV and Aids and TB, has resulted in dramatic improvements in health outcomes.

 

 

The reconstruction and development programme, has resulted in about 2,8 million government subsidized houses. These houses have been distributed over 875 000 serviced sites being delivered, with 56% of housing subsidies being allocated to women-headed households. This had given more than 12 million South Africans an access to accommodation, and increased the number of people living in formal housing from 64% in 1996 to 77% in 2011. The government has succeeded, because of the hard work of all our people who contributed in various ways to rebuilding and moving their country forward.

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The 2018 state of the nation address highlights government’s programmes to address the socioeconomic challenges in our country. Our president said among other things:

 

 

We are one people, committed to work together to find jobs for our youth; to build factories and roads, houses and clinics; to prepare our children for a world of change and progress; to build cities and towns where families may be safe, productive and content. We know that there is still a lot that divides us. We remain a highly unequal society, in which poverty and prosperity are still defined by race and gender.

 

 

Let us continue Tata Madiba’s legacy by making poverty history... [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no no, hon Wilma, your time has expired! Hon members, to show appreciation, this is what you do! So, that is included! Thank you, hon Wilma!

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Mr M P GALO: Deputy Speaker, as we mark and commemorate the Sharpville massacre, the gallant spirit of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe connects us with the living dead: the mortals of Kwame Nkrumah; Marcus Garvey; Julius Nyerere; Pius Langa; Jafta Masemola; Steven Biko and many other pan Africanist thinkers.

 

 

As we mark and commemorate the legacy of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe, Jafta Masemola, Neville Alexander, Maggy Resha, Oliver Tambo and many others, we wish to officially inform this House that the AIC MPs adopted a number of destitute families based in eGcuwa in the Eastern Cape. We are paying our dues in fostering quality human life and access to quality education.

 

 

The South African history of torture and prejudice, which was carefully countenanced as early as 1910 when the Pan Africanists dared to allow the Union of South Africa to muster, is a constant reminder that the human rights project is a must. It is a must that we deepen our levels of social cohesion and reconciliation; it is a must that land reform should be understood against the spirit of national building; it is a must

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that we grow our economy to lift the poor out of the cliff through tax compliance; it is a must that we don’t ride on cheap political slogans at the detriment of foreign direct investment and foreign portfolio inflows.

 

 

The spirit of Robert Sobukwe alongside former President Nelson Mandela lingers on. South Africans, the AIC urges you to support multi-party democracy to deepen our democratic institutions and the lifeblood of our fledging democracy. Human rights are also about accountability.

 

 

Reject one-party state, by not conferring a single party excessive power. Neutralize the abuse of power, of state coffers and of state apparatus.

 

 

While the new dawn is upon us, we dare not muddle this dawn by forgetting the fundamentals. We dare not faint; we dare not faulter. Azania will again rise and her people will remain a piece of continent. Azania!

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Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy, Speaker, hon Speaker, Ministers and hon members. The man who made money from the company that killed our in Marikana is now the President of country. [Interjections.]

 

 

We cannot speak about the legacy of Nelson Mandela under his leadership. Our people suffered and died like in Jews in Nazi Germany. Wherever he is, former President Nelson Mandela feels lonely when he thinks about the ANC.

 

 

The children of Mgcineni “Mambush” Noki, Henry Pato, Mafolisi Mabiya, Mzukisi Sompeta, to name a few, have no mothers and fathers. Any celebration of Human Rights Day under the ANC led by Mr Ramaphosa is a serious insult to our brothers and sisters who died in Marikana; and those workers who are still exploited by the mining industry using black faces, like Mr Ramaphosa when he was used by Lonmin.

 

 

If our revered former President Nelson Mandela ... [Interjection.]

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Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: on Rule 84. The member is alleging that the President of the country was used by Lonmin. Of which he must bring a substantive motion if he has it ... [Interjection.]

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: No, he was a front ... [Interjection.]

 

 

Mr B A RADEBE: So, it’s out of order. He says he was a front. Rule 84 and 85; bring a motion into the House.

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: If our revered former President Nelson Mandela would come back, he will be shocked ... [Interjection.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Plouamma, the imputation is out of order. Do that!

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I’m not going to withdraw and do as he says. [Interjections.]

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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you saying, hon member? I don’t hear you, address me please!

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I’ll bring forward a substantive motion, I’ll do that. [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Plouamma, please, you know what you should do!

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Anyway, Deputy Speaker, let me give you a gift and withdraw. [Laughter.]

 

 

If our revered former President Nelson Mandela would come back, he will be shocked to find Mr Ace Magashule and Mr David Mabuza leading the ANC. If we were to tell him that we had another Sharpville, which is Marikana and Mr Ramaphosa was a director on that fateful day at Lonmin, he will regret he ever considered him to be worthy of leadership.

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The question we need to ask ourselves is how do we celebrate his centenary when those who are in power steal from the poor?

 

 

Is it not gross human rights violation when employment and opportunities are only given to those who are related to those in power?

 

 

The money that has been stolen under the ANC-led government could have been used to eradicate poverty.

 

 

Hon members, we must stop to use the name of the former President Nelson Mandela to hide our theft and to try wash away our sins.

 

 

It is official, the ANC is finished. I’m just asking for the opposition to prepare itself, this is our chance. We are going to take them over. [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Hon members, no, you can’t scream at a member like that. [Interjections.]

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Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Deputy Speaker, do I still have time?

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, it’s there. Watch the clock, hon member. You still have 32 seconds.

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Yes, I see.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just watch the clock, when it’s red ... Order, hon members. Hon member, why are you screaming?

 

 

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Deputy Speaker, can hon Plouamma or Tlouamma take a question?

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me give the king an opportunity to ask me a question. [Laughter.]

 

 

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Hon Tlou ... I don’t know whether to call you Tlou ... [Interjection.]

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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It’s Tlouamma, hon member. Don’t play around with the words. It’s Tlouamma, please.

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: She’s now insulting me. You are a king, don’t insult me.

 

 

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Okay, it’s Tlouamma?

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes!

 

 

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: But here, hon ... [Interjection.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, don’t worry about that. What’s your question, hon member?

 

 

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: Can hon Tlouamma tell us where Dr Mamphele Ramphele is? [Interjections.]

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Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the role that Dr Mamphele Ramphele played in this country can never be changed by that hon member ... [Interjection.]

 

 

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: You ought to know when members are being irrelevant to the debate. That is a very irrelevant question meant to derail the rest of us from the debate. I think you must rule as irrelevant because what does Mamphele Ramphele have to do with the hon member’s topic of discussion. That king is irrelevant and she must go elsewhere to ask that question.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member had the choice to ignore it. Hon member, what are you rising on now?

 

 

Ms M R M MOTHAPO: It is because hon Plouamma or Tlouamma mentioned leaders so I thought he would mention his own leader. [Interjection.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, please sit down.

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Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, how do I dethrone a king? I want to dethrone that king.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member. Please proceed, you have 15 seconds left.

 

 

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: No, I’m done.

 

 

Mr L R MBINDA: Hon Deputy Speaker, as the PAC we understand that uTata Mandela was the member of the ANC Youth League and he was working with the likes of Robert Mangaliso Sobukwe. This is the same generation that drafted the 1949 program of action. At the centre of this program were the land question, self- determination and Africanization. This is the basis which the PAC was formed on to continue teaching the African people about the restoration land back to its rightful owners.

 

 

As we debate this historic day, we ought to understand what the struggle of the African people is all about. African people were fighting for self-determination to return the land that was

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stolen from through the barrel of a gun. With that understanding, the land to us is anything and everything that is underneath and above the surface as well as above the sky, including the oxygen that we breathe.

 

 

The PAC salutes all men and women who paid their supreme sacrifice in defence of their forefathers – I hope forefathers will be understood as a metaphor.

 

 

The PAC continue for its call for 21st March to be renamed Anti- Pass Campaign to preserve the correct historic version of the day for future generations. This is the day where 69 people were killed and hundreds of them were wounded by the then racist regime.

 

 

To the Freedom Front Plus, there is no way that a black group will dominate a white group because you cannot dominate if you are not in control of the economy. It doesn’t work like, you must be in control of resources and the economy then you dominate the other group.

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On the issue of Nelson Mandela, we will describe him as a man of integrity, vision and wisdom; a man who saw beyond others, even those walking with him; a man whom the human kind came first; a man of peace even at the displeasure of himself and his people. Today we are where we are, talking about land or expropriation without compensation, and we are trying to undo what he inflicted. Thank you.

 

 

Sesotho:

 

Ms S P KOPANE: Ke a leboha Motsamaisi wa Dipuisano.

 

 

English:

 

When Mahatma Gandhi said: “A nation greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members”. He was referring to those vulnerable people of the society who are unable to take care of themselves. It is the time of the year once again when we have to reflect on the journey that all of us as South Africans have walked to achieve the democracy that we are having today. Let me repeat it for the sake of my hon. Members on my right. It is

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time to reflect on the journey that all of us have walked, not just those in the ANC. [Interjections.]

 

 

This hard won democracy was fought for by every South African, not only in the ANC like they would like us to believe. [Applause.] Let me remind you that in 1994 an overwhelming majority of the people voted for a new Parliament and new government. This multi-party government is a representation of the hopes and dreams of all South Africans. This Parliament is a symbol of that democracy. This is why the Constitution with the founding principle of South Africa belongs to all who live in it, and does not only belong to the ANC alone.

 

 

As we prepare to celebrate Human Rights Day, we need to understand and remind ourselves that our democracy came as a result of great sacrifices and a combined determination of many heroes who have walked before us. The fearless fighter for a democratic and free South Africa, Helen Suzman was one of those many heroes who we must also remember today. [Interjections.] [Applause.] She was a lone voice in this Parliament fighting for

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the rights and freedom of every South African. But more than two decades ago, there are still millions of South Africans who are still suffering from the injustice of the past under the ANC-led government. And for them, the hopes and the dreams of the new South Africa remain just a dream.

 

 

There is a saying that those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. It is clear now that the ANC have decided to have a retrograde amnesia and repeat the unjust treatment to our people. Today I stand here with more questions than answers. I stand here before you remembering the days of apartheid Security Police who used to terrorise our people in my neighbourhood. I am reminded about how 47 mineworkers in Marikana were brutally killed. For the families of those who were killed, there is little to celebrate and not a single leader in the ANC has stepped forward and apologised or took accountability for those killings. How can we celebrate Human Rights Day with any sense of pride while there are millions of South Africans who still mourn the death of their loved ones under the ANC watch on daily

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basis? There are weakest members of our society through their eyes we will be watched.

 

 

Deputy Speaker, the inhumane manner in which 143 of the weakest members of society were handled in Life Esidimeni is a horror movie that will remain in our memories for years to come. The reality is 143 patients who most vulnerable members of society were brutally killed at the hands of those who are mandated to protect and look after them. No government in the world has ever treated such vulnerable people in this manner. For families of the lost ones, have little to celebrate. Once again, not single leaders of the ANC have stepped forward and apologise or took accountability for the death of those innocent people. Instead, we see those who are responsible, like Qedani Mahlangu, are being protected, walking side by side with President Ramaphosa while she should be walking straight to prison. [Applause.] One would expect given all what has happened that the ANC would be remorseful for the Life Esidimeni incident but instead, they have learned nothing and feel nothing.

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Yesterday MEC Ramokgopa announced that 44 former Life Esidimeni Mental Health patients are still missing. But guess what; nine of missing patients are receiving grants from SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, but have not yet been traced. The lack of access to oncology service for cancer patients in KwaZulu-Natal has potentially resulted in the death of more than 400 patients.

 

 

SA Human Rights Commission report found that both the Department of Health, provincially and nationally have failed to take reasonable steps to progressively realise the rights to have access to care and they have violated the rights of human dignity – life of a patient. Guess what, no one was held accountable, why are we celebrating Human Rights Day today?

 

 

Lastly, the current outbreak of listeriosis has claimed more than 180 lives. Again, those who are responsible have not faced justice. They should all be held accountable and charged with culpable homicide and murder. The DA will continue to defend the rights of those vulnerable people of our society in our country. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

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Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you very much Deputy Speaker. Hon members, today we come together as the National Assembly to remember, honour and put into action the pledge that our beloved President Nelson Mandela so effectively embodied. He lived for, fought for and died defending every South African’s human rights.

 

 

I want to state that the struggle for human rights and the implementation of human rights is a struggle against forgetting who we are and where we come from. As tata Nelson Mandela stated, a struggle against forgetting and a constant reminder that the freedoms we enjoy today were ground out of struggle and sacrifice.

 

 

This is why in the preamble of our Constitution we make a declaration of what we consider important to our South African society. Our Constitution declares for all the world to see that:

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We, the people of South Africa, Recognise the injustices of our past; Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land; Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.

 

 

We should never forget this pledge. Our people will never let us forget this pledge and the ANC will never allow our society to forget this pledge.

 

 

Let me state that it was as a result of the struggles against colonialism, racism, poverty and underdevelopment initiated by the ANC of Tambo, Mandela and Sisulu that we today celebrate our collective freedom and human rights. It was the ANC of Tambo, Mandela and Sisulu that ushered in our modern-day narrative of revolution, participatory democracy, gender equality, human rights, social justice, nonracialism, freedom, self- determination and human solidarity.

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Any short history will show us that in 1923 it was the ANC that adopted a Bill of Rights, and reclaimed South Africa’s humanity and the right to participate in the economic life of our country.

 

 

It was the ANC that in 1955 launched the Freedom Charter as a lodestar for human rights on the basis of freedom, justice and equality.

 

 

By 1946 it was the ANC that placed South Africa at the centre of the global debate on human rights and justice. For those who don’t know, it was the ANC that contributed in no small way to the UN Declaration in 1948.

 

 

It was the ANC that launched the Harare Declaration in 1989 that so ably proclaimed the basis for all people of our land on our human rights.

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It was all South Africans, under the leadership of the ANC led by President tata Mandela that crafted this Constitution we are talking about today.

 

 

It was the ANC that brought the nation together under the inspiring leadership of tata Nelson Mandela to build the platform of this Parliament in 1994 as a debating and implementing ... human rights through legislative drafting and oversight.

 

 

However, in this centenary year of tata Mandela, what does human rights mean to the vulnerable today? Vulnerable people cannot live only on these rights. They need land which was taken away from them. We have given them the rights ... opportunity to enjoy these rights by sharpening the government’s ability to deliver services where it is most needed. This means that we need to make sure through our oversight over the executive that government departments must deliver to people who are in hospitals, who go to police stations to report crime, who

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struggle to find work and those who toil every day for their lives and for survival.

 

 

It is we as members of this august House that must make sure that we defend every single human right of our people as encapsulated in the Bill of Rights.

 

 

As we debate and celebrate the centenary of tata Nelson Mandela, thousands of farmworkers continue to live and work in unbearable conditions. Some workers are treated as slaves and are beaten by farmers, and when they approach our courts their voices are lost in the system. Some prosecutors deliberately intimidate those farmworkers into submission and sometimes the dropping the charges. I have a case here that has just happened recently in Laingsburg.

 

 

We have to make sure that government departments do not trample on the rights of our people. They were hard fought for and hard won, and we have to defend these rights with the spirit and energy that tata Mandela displayed so ably.

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In this new dawn, as characterised by President Ramaphosa, we have to deepen this human right’s culture across our society. We should do this by continuing to raise awareness of human rights as we are in fact doing in this debate today.

 

 

Our schools and universities must return to teaching our children the importance of celebrating and defending these human rights. We should recognise that the growth of civil society organisations in our country gives expression to the defence of human rights in our country.

 

 

Let me be clear that our practice of human rights should be an expression of our people's needs. It means that when our people go to police stations to report crimes they should not be chased away, they should not be deferred away and their complaints should be addressed speedily. It means that when people like Mrs Mamabolo from a local community goes to apply for a pension, maintenance or old age grant, she should be treated with dignity and respect by officials of government. When the children at schools ask us to protect them from gangs and drugs then

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government should be responsive. It means when our trade unions exercise their right to protest peacefully we should hear them.

 

 

When the rights of the most vulnerable in our society are defended then we say that the strength of human culture is being adhered to. When the prisoner lays a complaint about his treatment and access to HIV medication we should be responsive to that. When the gay and lesbian community gets discriminatory treatment we must intervene because the Bill of Rights protects them too. When the sex worker complains of police treatment we should investigate that. When an old pensioner stands outside in a queue for a long time waiting for an application we should be responsive and act on that.

 

 

We express our human rights by defending the human rights of others. South Africans are known for being vigilant in expressing those human rights. If we want to extend our human rights, we should promote active citizenship. We should get citizens to participate ... in educating these rights ... to

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teach them about civic knowledge and its value. This we have to learn from a great man, tata Nelson Rolihlala Mandela.

 

 

Before I respond to the DA, let me end by quoting the words of tata Nelson Mandela:

 

 

Our drive for human dignity and basic rights is premised on the development of our country and the improvement of the living conditions of the people. The freedoms whose virtue we are extolling will be meaningless in the face of grinding poverty and underdevelopment.

 

 

Deputy Speaker, the DA spoke about a few things and let me quickly respond to them. The issue about what happened in Soweto remains a despicable act. The issue about the police who in fact molested children stands condemned. It’s something that all of us should condemn. In fact, if a police officer does that he or she does not belong in the SA Police Service but in jail somewhere.

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Now, the DA ... Let me just say that you stand here and speak about the school safety programme, and what you are going to do about it. By the way, Helen Zille has been the premier now for almost nine years. One year before the elections you come here to grandstand and say we are going to implement the grand ... [

 

 

By the way, you in fact destroy what you found. The ANC implemented the school safety programme. You came in, took away the budget and destroyed everything. You said you don’t need this at schools. Today in Cape Town and on the Cape Flats ... [Applause.] ... you will find ... [Inaudible.] ... at schools where gang violence is rife. It’s because of you! [Interjections.] It’s because of the DA! Shame on you! You come here to grandstand because it’s one year before the elections.

 

 

Somebody stands here and says there is no sexual offenders’ register. At the moment as we stand here there are 28 760 people on that offenders’ list and that list is updated every day. You completely and deliberately mislead this House!

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I think we should understand why are celebrating the Constitution that we are speaking about today. Today we celebrate our ...

 

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: [Inaudible.]

 

 

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: The ... I will leave you ... that to you because if you saying I am prosecute ... you are prosecute yourself.

 

 

Mr H P CHAUKE: No, no, no, point of order, Deputy Speaker: I think it’s unparliamentary for the Chief Whip of the Opposition to use the word that he has just used; that of prostituting the House. My appeal is that he should withdraw it. He cannot do that in the House. Dignify that. There are kids in the gallery up there. How do you explain such things when there are kids in the gallery? How do you do that? [Interjections.]

 

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I used the word crosstitute and I referred to the fact that this member sat

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on both sides of the House. You can check the Hansard if you want. [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let’s not degenerate by using vulgar language if we must. I do wish that we do that.

 

 

Dr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, that word doesn’t appear in the English language. What language is it?

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have no idea.

 

 

Dr M Q NDLOZI: We don’t know. He must define it for us. What do you mean by this member, hon Chief Steenhuisen? What has this member done? [Interjections.]

 

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It’s accepted in the political lexicon that when you sell your principles for the highest offer it’s a crosstitute.

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Dr M Q NDLOZI: Oh, he crossed the floor? Where was he before? [Interjections.] Cope? He used to be in Cope? Wow! [Interjections.] So is that what it means?

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member? Hon Ndlozi, take your seat.

 

 

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Deputy Speaker?

 

 

Dr M Q NDLOZI: [Inaudible.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon Ndlozi! You are out of order. [Interjections.] Yes hon member?

 

 

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, can I continue? My time.

 

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I will give him a

 

chance. Deputy Speaker, you pointed at me.

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Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Let me just say this to you. There is a debate about the question of ... [Inaudible.] ... Esidimeni ... [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ramatlakane, take your seat. Let me listen to the ...

 

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I just wanted to ask whether the member would gladly take a question from me.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ramatlakane?

 

 

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: I will.

 

 

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Deputy Speaker?

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members! Go ahead hon Minister. [Interjections.]

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The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I just wanted to ask the member if he can explain ... Well, firstly hon Deputy Speaker, we have said that that sounds ...

 

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. Deputy Speaker?

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There’s a member on the floor who is speaking!

 

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: No! That sounds are

 

used ...

 

 

Mr M WATERS: Yes, she’s supposed to be asking a question not making a ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Yes, give me a

 

chance to ask the question.

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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat! Hon Waters, you are not listening! [Interjections.] Hon Waters, take your seat and listen!

 

 

The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Firstly, I would

 

like the member to please explain to the House where those members who are sitting on his left were during the liberation struggle. Secondly, we have explained that in our culture those kissing sounds are used for dogs at home. There are no dogs in this House. They have a problem of not understanding our culture because they don’t live with us. They must stop making those kissing sounds in this House.

 

 

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, what is the question please? Please take control of this debate. Thank you.

 

 

Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Deputy Speaker? I’ve been standing here for some time. Point of order please: I don’t want the House to take the word prostitute very lightly because ... [Interjections.]

... it’s a word that is used generally in society to undermine

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sex workers. [Interjections.] If we allow Members of Parliament to utilise it, it implies by definition that hon Ramatlakane is a sex worker [Interjections.] [Applause.] So, in terms of the rules I suggest that hon Steenhuisen should withdraw that, especially on a very important debate on human rights. If hon Steenhuisen is not going to withdraw I suggest that he be taken to the Ethics Committee. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: [Inaudible.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I suggest that I come back with a ruling on this matter. I do think it crosses boundaries but I would like to come back to rule on this matter. I would like the hon member to reply to the questions.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: Point of order Deputy Speaker.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?

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Ms N V MENTE: Deputy Speaker, there is nothing derogatory when a person is called a sex worker.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I have ruled on that matter so you can’t ...

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: A sex worker exists in South Africa. It’s a job of a person. [Interjections.] It’s not derogatory at all.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I didn’t ask you to rule on the matter. I said I will rule.

 

 

Ms N V MENTE: No, we cannot be told that sex workers do not exist. They do exist and they work here in South Africa. It’s a type of work they do.

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not allowed ... Hon member, if I were you I would gladly take my seat. Go ahead hon member. I didn’t ask you to rule on that matter! Go ahead hon Ramatlakane. Respond to the questions asked.

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Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker, I want to respond to the Minister’s questions. During the struggle those on my left were all in the suburbs defending apartheid ... [Interjections>] ... taking ... killing our children in townships, making sure that we don’t get our freedom. [Interjections.] That is where they were. [Interjections.] So they belong there; in the ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

 

 

Mr S P MHLONGO: Deputy Speaker, I think the member is not informed. I was in Orlando. Thank you. [Interjections.]

 

 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat. Hon Ramatlakane, I’m afraid your time has expired. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

 

 

Hon members, please join me in welcoming the children in the gallery who in future are going to replace you here in your seats. They come from a school named Samora Machel. Welcome kids. [Applause.]

 

 

Debate concluded.

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The House adjourned at 13:05.