Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 28 Nov 2018
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 10:02
The House Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY moved: That the House suspends Rule 290(2)(a), which provides inter alia that the debate on the Second Reading of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have elapsed since the committee’s report was tabled for the purposes of conducting the Second Reading debate today on the Adjustment Appropriation Bill and the Special Appropriation Bill. I so move House Chair.
Declarations of Vote:
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Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the wavering of the three day rule is a direct consequence of us having three months holiday from this Parliament. We become a sausage factory. We have pressurised all the committees to produce legislation at record speed. Yesterday in the Rules committee, we had a report from the high level panel whereby one of their concerns for Parliament was that we do not have proper public participation when dealing with legislation. We use it as window dressing. We do not take the inputs of the public seriously and this is one further example of how we are just using Parliament as a sausage machine. The DA will not be supporting this motion. Thank you. [Applause.]
Question put.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chairperson, I move with due respect the precedence be given to Third Order and Fourth Order as they appear on the Order Paper; which in simple language means that we will start our business today with Third
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Order and Forth Order and if so agreed; and then revert back to First Order and Second Order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): I now put the motion. I see you are standing already. I still need to put the motion., can you just wait?
Question put.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Okay. Hon Mente.
Ms N V MENTE: No; we want to know the reason because yesterday we were lobbying that this motion must come first in the House. We agreed, now all of a sudden things change and we are not being told. Why must that be happening? What is the reason for it to happen like that? We cannot just be told that this is going to happen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, Parliament as an institution, is governed through consensus in terms of the
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programme. We have consulted with many parties and indeed; there are some members of other parties who are not here now to debate this item. Therefore, it’s only prudent that we allow all parties to present their views on this matter. We can’t then put an item on the Order Paper when we have been informed by other parties that their members that are responsible for this area are not here at this time, we still continue as if we have not heard them.
Indeed; what we had requested from all parties - by the way - first of all, this item had been put in all our programmes for debate tomorrow. We have brought if forward today. That is the consultation that we had with all parties. All of them agreed except the timing of where we are putting this item because there are some members of other parties that are not here now, that are meant to deal with this matter. As the ANC, we are in full agreement that indeed Third Order and Fourth Order can take precedence then we come back to First Order and Second Order because all parties at that time will have all their debaters in this House.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you. With the explanation given ... Hon Mente
Ms N V MENTE: No, that explanation is not satisfactory. Members were told to be here by 10’oclock. That’s what they are paid to do. It is even embarrassing for the Chief Whip to be telling us that are members who are not here. If he fails to whip his people in line, we shouldn’t suffer for that. [Interjections.] It is not our problem. [Interjections.] You must put your people in line. We are not going to be responsible for your own fault. Do not disadvantage us. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you hon Mente. You have made your point. Hon Steeinhuizen is first. No, hon Steeinhuisen was up before you. Please take your seat.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, can I address you in terms of Rule 210 of the NA Rules? You would know that decisions are made in the programming committee by consensus.
This matter was programmed last week by the programming
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committee for the debate tomorrow. That’s what was agreed in the programming committee. We were approached and we agreed that we will have the debate today. We are just asking – so what? That is a very mature response but anyway, we agreed with the colleagues that we will have the debate today.
We are merely asking for the debate to be later in the day. But if we want to take technical and really apply the rules, then frankly Rule 44 which was being used to get this on the Order Paper this way doesn’t apply because there had been a detailed determination for the sitting day made in the programming committee last week. This place has to operate by consensus and with reasonableness. I think it is very rich of the hon Mente who has only three members in the House today to start pointing out what the other Whips are doing. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): Thank you. Having received the explanation, ... [Interjections.] No I think you got your chance EFF. Having received the explanation, may I now put the question?
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Question put.
Agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE ON 2018 MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT FOR PROPOSED FISCAL FRAMEWORK
Ms D G MAHLANGU: Hon Chairperson, hon members of this august House, the Standing Committee on Finance considered the 2018 Medium-Term Budget Policy Framework for the proposed fiscal framework tabled by the Minister of Finance on 24 October 2018.
The tabled MTBPS included the revised fiscal framework for the 2017-18 financial year, and the proposed fiscal framework for the next three years. As per section 12 of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act 9 of 2009, this is the report on the proposed fiscal framework.
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In order to address the challenges of accelerating economic growth and reducing unemployment, poverty, inequality, the skewed pattern of ownership and production, the ANC envisaged a developmental state that will play a leading role by directly investing in underdeveloped areas and directing private investment.
The committee notes that over the MTEF period, we have to ensure that the expenditure ceiling remains intact. Reprioritisation of R32,4 billion will take funding from nonperforming areas to fund the upgrading of informal settlements and the President’s economic stimulus and recovery plan.
The resources for the economic stimulus and recovery plan will include a combination of reprioritisation changes to grant structures and in-year allocation amounts to more than
R50 billion. A reprioritisation of R15,9 billion will go towards infrastructure programmes, supporting industrialisation, the EPWP. The additional R16,5 billion will be allocated to various
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programmes, including funding to restore much-needed capacity at the South African Revenue Services.
The committee welcomes these allocations, especially to the infrastructure and Sars, but the committee wants to see an implementation plan.
IsiNdebele:
Asisafuni “iscamtho” ...
English:
As you will be presenting your quarterly reports to the committee, going forward, as an oversight committee, we will be monitoring and evaluating the implementation plan as to how far you are in terms of implementing ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G BOROTO): Hon members, please take your seats. I think the noise is too high. Will you please take your seats?
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IsiNdebele:
Kkz D G MAHLANGU: Ngaphezulu kokuthi sizwisise besamukele ubujamo bethu beemali, sithokozela ingcenye yamaphensende amatjhumi asithandathu wesabelo seemali ezokufakwa emahlelweni wezepilo, wezefundo, wezehlala kuhle nawezokuthuthukiswa komphakathi eminyakeni ezako.
English:
However, the committee is concerned about the misalignment of NDP goals and infrastructure spending outcomes in all three spheres of government.
This is a very important point to all members and members of the executive. We cannot tell ordinary members down there at the villages and townships, if they need a certain service that it is not under our jurisdiction but under that of another level of government. So, that integration is very important. It needs to be aligned so that we can give good service to our people.
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More than ever, the country needs economic growth. The proposed fiscal framework and the MTBPS as a whole have to be evaluated in terms of the extent to which it contributes to investment, growth, job creation and the reduction of inequality.
The committee believes that government needs to, among other things, do far more to reduce political and policy uncertainty, address the key structural challenges, revitalise and strengthen Sars, encourage job creation investment, spend money more efficiently and effectively and act decisively against corruption. That is the call by our organisation and the President. [Applause.] Furthermore, we must tackle the illicit economy for more effective implementation.
Afrikaans:
Die komitee glo belegging is van kardinale belang vir ekonomiese groei, maar internasionale beleggers sal meer belangstelling toon om te belê as die binnelandse privaatsektor dit doen. Ons doen dus ’n beroep op alle binnelandse beleggers om in
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werkskepping te belê, teneinde ekonomiese groei te verseker. [Applous.]
English:
The committee reiterates its views that government alone cannot ensure the necessary economic growth. Parliament, the private sector, trade unions, sections of civil society and the public at large all have a role to play. Government, however, has to lead, in this regard.
We call on government and National Treasury, in particular, to manage public finances prudently. We are here to make sure that you are doing what you are mandated to do, and to watch what you are doing with the public purse.
IsiNdebele:
Bantu beSewula Afrika, koke lokhu esele ngikubalile kumisebenzi emihle eyenziwa yihlangano yenu i-ANC - ngitjho ihlangano yamambala, enetlha, etlhogomela abantu boke beSewula Afrika.
Sibawa niragele phambili niyivowudele nangomnyaka ozako.
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Ningavowudeli iinlelesi, abogalajani nabosomthwadlana kodwana nivowudele i-ANC. Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo Wendlu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G BOROTO): I just want to welcome learners from the Youth Leadership Development Programme from the South African Navy to Parliament today. [Applause.] We are proud of you.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, let me begin by noting that the new Minister of Finance, Tito Mboweni, is once again missing in action for a major debate on the Budget in this Parliament.
Now, the new Minister delivered his maiden Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, four weeks ago in Parliament. The metrics were bad and took the markets by surprise, and as a result the rand tanked and bond yields spiked.
However, there were elements of the MTBPS that were courageous. To his credit, the Minister took on the wreckers inside the governing party, warning them not to attack the mandate and
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independence of the Reserve Bank. This is exactly what the wreckers inside the governing party needed to be told as they force us closer to the brink.
We are in deep economic trouble and the Minister was absolutely right ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Order, hon members!
Mr D J MAYNIER: ... to say that we are at a crossroads.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): There’s too much noise. Sorry for that, hon Maynier. I’m watching. Hon members, can we please be quiet and listen to the debate? There’s also too much movement. Can we reduce that? Continue with your two seconds that were stolen, hon Maynier.
Mr D J MAYNIER: We are in deep economic trouble. We have a growth problem, with an average economic growth rate of two per cent expected over the medium term. We have a revenue problem,
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with a revenue shortfall of R57 billion expected over the medium term. We have an expenditure problem, with an expenditure over- run of R23 billion over the medium term. We have a state-owned enterprises, SOEs, problem, with zombie SOEs requiring billions of rand in bailouts over the medium term. We have a deficit problem, with our fiscal deficit expected to blow out to
R251 billion or four per cent of GDP by 2021-22. We have a debt problem, with our national debt expected to reach a staggering R3,7 trillion or 59% of GDP by 2021-22.
We remain a small open economy with twin deficits, making us vulnerable to external shocks; which is why we welcomed the Minister’s announcement that it is now time to consider a new fiscal anchor. The aim of fiscal policy is of course to stabilise national debt, which has been a spectacular failure given the fact that national debt is expected to increase from R627 billion or 26% of GDP in 2008-09 to a staggering
R3,7 trillion or 59% of GDP in 2021-22. This means that we will be spending a staggering R247 billion on debt service costs in
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2021-22, which is the equivalent of what we will spend on Basic Education this year in 2018-19.
We think the solution is a statutory fiscal rule and we are in the advanced stages of preparing a Private Members Bill called the Fiscal Responsibility Bill, which will make provision for a debt ceiling and which we will introduce in this Parliament.
We cannot go on like this, and we hope that the Minister will not allow himself to be muzzled and will continue to take on the wreckers inside the governing party. He started off well by saying that zombie SOEs like the SA Airways should be shut down. He also said that those who supported land expropriation without compensation are ill-informed. This of course was greeted with horror by the wreckers inside the governing party because of course they still reminisce fondly about the good old days of Checkpoint Charlie and Aeroflot.
The Minister needs to take on Jeremy Cronin, who is still shackled to the idea of a Soviet-style central state planning
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commission and who thinks the National Development Plan comprises of a few untested proposals, summaries of programmes long underway and much else.
He needs to take on Rob Davies, who is still shackled to the idea of a Soviet-style ...
Mr P J MNGUNI: Order, House Chair. House Chair, from the back.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Hon Maynier, can you take your seat? Yes hon Mnguni?
Mr P J MNGUNI: ... [Inaudible.] Thank you very much, House Chair. The hon Maynier, who has been asked to sit and won’t sit, has consistently not been referring to members of this House in the requisite manner. He refers to, what he calls, Jeremy Cronin
... what he calls Rob Davies. May he please refer to them in the appropriate manner as hon members or as Mr if he can’t?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Thank you very much. That is in accordance with our rules ... Rule 85. Hon Maynier, please do that as you continue with your speech. Thank you.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the Minister needs to take on the hon Rob Davies, who is still shackled to the idea of a Soviet- style smokestack economy, with workers toiling around blast furnaces happily singing, Arise ye workers, as they deliver the perfect rendition of The Internationale. [Applause.]
The Minister needs to take on Ebrahim Patel, who is busy weaponising the Competition Commission to stamp out monopolies in the private sector while doing everything he can to protect monopolies in the state sector, including desperately clinging on to the biggest and most dangerous monopoly, Eskom.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Hon Maynier, please take your seat.
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon House Chair, I rise on a point of privilege. When the House Chair has made a ruling I think a
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member has to refrain from that behaviour. It is so clear that the hon member on the podium is continually violating Rule 85.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Hon Maynier, I think I have to say this for the last time. Please use Rule 85. Every member of this House should be addressed in a dignified and respectable manner. Thank you very much.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson?
Mr D J MAYNIER: Thank you, Chair.
Mr M WATERS: Sorry, David. Chairperson, if I may ask for clarity on Rule 85. The hon Maynier referred to a Minister as Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): No, not this time.
Mr M WATERS: He did. He did ... [Inaudible.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Hon Waters, please. I heard him. I don’t want to delay this any further.
Mr M WATERS: He referred to the Minister ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Please continue hon Maynier.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Thank you, Chairperson. Of course, there is one wrecker which the Minister does not have to take on. That is the hon Yunus Carrim because of course he is a communist of a special type. He fights the struggle of the working class, not from the factory floor or from the plains of Outer Mongolia as he often claims, but from the lobbies of the most lavish hotels in Washington.
Mr P J MNGUNI: ... [Inaudible.] ... hon House Chair. [Interjections.] Hon House Chair?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Yes, hon Mnguni? Take your seat, hon Maynier. Yes, hon Mnguni?
Mr P J MNGUNI: Rule 85 reads thus: “No member may impute improper motives to any other member, or cast personal reflections upon a member’s integrity ...” Hon Maynier is doing exactly the same to the hon Yunus Carrim. It is unacceptable and against the rules of the House. May he please withdraw from this kind of conduct? Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Hon member, I’m still getting advice. I didn’t hear the part that you are talking about. Can I go to you? Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chairperson, Rule
85 cannot trump section 58 of the Constitution. This is well within the bounds of political debate. [Interjections.] The hon Carrim ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs M G Boroto): Hon member, I think that is a debate. Let me seek advice. I didn’t hear the words that he used. I will rule on that later. Thank you. Continue hon member. Please desist from not aligning yourself with the rules of the House.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the hon Yunus Carrim is a communist of a special type because he’s best kept secret is ... wait for
... that despite being a leading member of the communist party, he serves as a member on the board of the parliamentary network
... wait for it ... of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. [Interjections.]
Oh, and of course the Minister should not forget the hon Nomvula Mokonyane, who of course is more of a nutter than a wrecker, and who thinks that we can just pick up the rand.
In the end, we welcome the fact that the Minister has decided to remain on Twitter and has wisely decided to be more careful on Twitter. We know that he’s had a bad start but things will get
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better as he finds his feet, and we look forward to debating the best ideas to take us forward in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr T RAWULA: Hon Chairperson, perhaps the most overuse cliché of all time is that on the definition of insanity by Albert Einstein. It is argued that he defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again, and expects different results.
Over the past 24 years, the ANC’s fiscal framework has been fixated on pleased external forces rather than focusing on building internal capacity and conditions for sustainable and self- perpetuating economic growth. Conservative spending patterns, fixation with pleasing rating agencies and the International Monetary Fund, IMF, and the World Bank, cutting down on spending on essential social services have never stimulated growth anywhere, and most certainly not in this country for the past 24 years. These are purportedly done to boost investor confidence to kick-start the economy. This is the single most fooling idea that the ANC has.
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The economy will not be revitalised through chipping away the little that ordinary people have, by shedding jobs, by privatising state institutions. The economy will grow when the state plays a developmental role, when it equalises the unequal playing field, and when it acts unashamedly on behalf of the millions of poor Africans in this country. The reality of the matter is that big capital is not investing in this country, and this has been a problem even before the Zuma demolition mob took over power.
Almost R1,5 trillion is enclosed in reserves of large Johannesburg Stock Exchange, JSE, listed companies, and is kept there deliberately by big business for purposes only they know, which we can only speculate about. This investment strike by big corporations is allowed to happen because we have a weak regulatory environment that places no obligations whatsoever on entities making money out of South African resources and labour. This is coupled by equally weak trade regulations, which allow for exports of primary products and imports of finished products
... [Interjections.] You are very obsessed with the EFF.
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This needs to change if we are to get the economy running again. This requires targeted state intervention and spending on key sectors of the economy. It requires bravery to admit that almost R1 trillion that will be spent on independent power producers is a massive waste of money, with no clearly defined benefits. It requires long term vision to resist the neoliberal temptation to privatise Eskom and SA Airways, SAA, but rather, to recapitalise these, place them under capable leadership, and utilise them to drive broad reconfiguration of the economy. It makes no sense that South Africa, being the largest producers of platinum in the world, has no say on the pricing of this important product.
Direct state intervention in the management of the economy will guarantee that South African wealth is used for the benefit of South African people. The ANC is found wanting in all these respects and the Standing Committee on Finance ought not to be endorsing this short-sighted stifling of economic activity in the country. You must never be fooled by the Democratic Alliance that state inherent is in capable of making interventions in the
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economy. The state can make a proper intervention ... [Time expired.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, when the Minister goes to deliver his maiden Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, there was a huge expectation that well finally the new dawn will come full settle with the new President earlier on this year, but what we got not we expected was chalk and cheese. It was the same script with different actors. What we got was the further confirmation that the economy is not growing at the hands of the ANC. Debts is escalating at the hands of the ANC. Unemployment is increasing at the hands of the ANC. The SA Revenue Service, Sars, is collapsing at the hands of the ANC. The state-owned enterprises, SOEs, are collapsing at the hands of the ANC. Corruption had become the Alpha and Omega of our discourse at the hands of the ANC.
What we got is that the ANC is virtually clueless about what needs to happen in this country. Then what we did get was that, yet again financial solutions were now becoming the order of the
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day bailout. The issue at SAA is not because it needs more money, we are speaking about an institution here that makes
R31 billion, but their expenditure is R33 billion. What does the ANC choose to do? Well, they want to give SAA R5 billion. The question becomes, is SAA actually pro-poor? The answer is a resounding no. But, because the ANC is so hell-bent on an egotistic exercise of trying to protect its own dignity to whomever it is. It has actually sacrificed that which is in the collective interest of our people.
Why aren’t we investing heavily in the transport of the majority of our people, the poor? Yet, we are funding SAA which is flown by the elites. It is clear that the ANC is now a shadow of its former self, no longer pro-poor but pro the rich. Then last week we had the reshuffle and all of us would have expected that the President was actually going to be committed to his own commitments and actually realign the economic cluster. Well, what happened? All we got was the realignment of the Department of Communications. Congratulations sister Stella. However, beyond that you have got the Department of Small Business
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Development, Trade and Industry, Finance and all of them trying to do the exact same thing. What is going to happen? Confusion of the highest order.
It is clear as never before that the ANC has reached the end of even the basics of imagination, clueless directionless and visionless. In conclusion, let me say that sell SAA and redirect the funds to pro-poor spending. Walk your talk and put your money where your mouth is. If you are pro-poor sell SAA. [Time expired.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Chairperson, Colleagues, Members in the gallery, the NFP welcomes the report of the standing committee. The policy statement seeks to propose division of revenue between spheres of government and between arms of government within a sphere. Having considered submissions from various stakeholders including amongst others; Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, South African Local Government Association, SALGA, Public Service Commission, PSC, Human Science Research Council, Public Benefit Organisation and PBO. Yes indeed I think
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of the medium term, if implemented and that seems to the serious problem in the country that we have some of the best plans but we lack implementation and the second one is consequence management. That is the two major crisis that we have in South Africa. Whilst these plans are very good unless you are going to implement them, they are not going to benefit people on the ground, particularly the poorest of the poor.
Some of the recommendations are welcomed particularly in terms of education and infrastructure but I we all are aware of the serious challenges we have of the infrastructure development in South Africa. The poor performance, the Early Child Development, EDC program does not even work in the Eastern Cape to honest with you, and unless we can deal with those things, putting money into infrastructure is not going solve the problem.
I have said before I think we at some stage are going to reach some fiscal cliff, because debt and debt service cost continue to rise. I have been told that other day that it’s expected to rise another R1 billion, there appears to be no end to it. We
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welcome the money that is going to be spent on sanitation; we welcome the money that is going to be spent particularly on health in light of the introduction of National Health Insurance, NHI and the 2200 critical posts in provinces and expanding medical student internships, I that augurs well, particularly for the health care in South Africa.
We are all aware that there serious challenges, particularly providing quality health care in provinces throughout the country. The FFC has highlighted one of the serious challenges, of being governance and yes indeed, that why we say separate politics from administration. Completely no politician should have anything to do with administration what so ever, not even employ anybody, not even benefit from it. If we can do that we can go a long way in sorting some of the challenges we face. We loose about R200 billion a year, no value for money a matter that need to be dealt with urgently. The NFP will support this. Thank you
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Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chairperson, let’s put a lot of issues into perspective here. Over the last eight this ANC government has borrowed over trillion rands and yet with that trillion rands it has yet been able to make a dent in the unemployment rate in South Africa especially among the youth. We are still despite these borrowings which are very high; we still the most unequal society in the world. Where did that money go, it’s clear that went to some of your pockets and the Guptas as well, which means can’t govern.
The second issue, I was listening to Minister of Finance, Chairperson, YUNUS CARRIM there is one matter that we need to correct, yes section 224 of the Constitution guarantees the independence of the Reserve Bank, I agree, its in terms, it must ensure price stability, it must also defend or protect the value of the rand but the South African Reserve Bank only enjoys instrument independence not goal independence. Government sets goal for the Central Bank, so the political discussion around Central Bank issue is about monetary policy, to say what goal we should be setting for Central Bank rather than the Central Bank
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telling us what to do on a daily basis, as if they unfettered independence or control.
There is no Central Bank; in your case you have stimulus packages, if read the report even the Projected Benefit Obligation, PBO, section talks about stimulus packages that Government has undertaken over the years but your the Central Bank moves in the opposite direction. I will give one typical example. There was an opportunity last year when the inflation rate was just under five percent, in the Consumer Price Index, CPIX, but they decided to increase the interest rate, at the time when the economy was in recession, in my view that’s irresponsible. I don’t know what the view of other people on this matter is.
The other issue here, whether we like or not, we have to look at our fiscal framework from a very broad and African context to say your growth strategy depends on you primarily now, when trying to export or trade with rest of African continent. The problem is that most African countries, 18 of them are facing a
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high debt risk crisis, out Of that 18, 11 of them already there is looming debt crisis in those countries. Meaning that as soon as the economies go belly up, you not be able to grow the economy or depend on the African continent on order to grow the economy.
Look at our trade relation between South Africa and China, despite initiatives to reduce dominant soft commodities in its BRICKS report basket, South Africa’s raw material increased exports from about 34% to 70% of the total exports from 2001 to 2016. At the same time manufactured exports went the opposite direction, there was 41% in 2001 and now there actually 24% in 2016. We must look at this thing at a very micro perspective and not just behave or operate in silos, not
IsiXhosa:
...ngokungathi uMzansi Afrika uhleli wodwa. Amasela.
Mr W W WESSELS: Hon Chairperson, hon Mahlangu said a very important thing and the electorates should listen to what she
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said and they should do that. She said – and she made a call on the electorate – to not vote for the people who are not doing the right things. To not vote for the people who are doing the wrong things let’s explore that. The hon Ace Magashule who is not so honourable anymore, did he do the right thing when he stole the money of the people of the Free State and gave it to the Guptas to fund their wedding? Did the former Premier of the North West do the right thing when he stole the money from The Department of Health and gave it to the Gupta-funded ambulance services which are not serving the people and clinics? Was that the right thing to do? Is it a right thing to have contracted development programmes which only benefit the children of premiers and not the actual small businesses which it is intended to do?
The hon Premier of the Free State, Sisi Ntombela, her children benefit from those programmes. Her home address is even the address of the registered business which benefits from these contracted development programmes. Is that the right thing to do? No, it is not. Whilst both types of programmes are looted by
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the ANC, the ANC government cannot be serious about developing small businesses and developing their economy. We are at a crossroad because of policy uncertainty created by the ANC government. That is not the right thing to do. We are at the crossroad financially and in our economy because of wrong policy directions.
The hon Rawula is absolutely correct. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is a definition of insanity. This government is insane to think that distributing wealth can create wealth. By dividing wealth you will never create wealth and you will never serve the interest of the poor. The same thing is being done over and over again. Giving 60% of this budget to the Department of Education and the Department of Health is correct, but the problem is that both our education and health systems are collapsing. So, that money is wasted.
Chairperson, furthermore, the fact of the matter is that we are on an unsustainable path by bailing out state-owned enterprises
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and by also with a wage bill being 40% of the national budget and 50% provincially. We will never get out of this fiscal cliff. We are on a fiscal cliff. Let the electorate do what the hon Mahlangu called on them to do and let them vote the ANC out of power next year. That is the only solution to South Africa. I thank you.
Mrs D CARTER: Chair, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the proposed Fiscal Framework and the Report of the Standing Committee on Finance thereon, read like a horrific nightmare. The ruling party have overloaded this plane. It’s carrying too much dead weight and far too many passengers. It has not been serviced in years. Its engines are not firing on all cylinders. Its controls are no longer responsive to commands. Its fuel tanks are leaking and it doesn’t have enough aviation gasoline, Avgas, to reach its destination.
It has been flown straight into a massive turbulent storm despite all the warnings. The pilot, the co-pilot and crew are fighting amongst themselves. And they managed to put the plane
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into a stall. It is now in a deadly nose dive and rock bottom is fast approaching. The relief pilots are frantically pulling up on the yoke as the alarm shouts, pull up! pull up! But South Africa, its people and their future continue to hurtle towards a catastrophic end. Chair, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the proposed Fiscal Framework puts in stark numbers in black and white the consequences of the ruling party’s rotten, maladministration and malfeasant governance of the state in all spheres of government, of the rooting of corruption in just about every organ of state under its political control with its tacit approval, the rampant looting of the destructive consequences of state capture in which the ruling party is wholly complicit, of the malicious destruction of the capabilities of many of the organs of our state at the hands of the ANC operatives, of its reckless mismanagement of our fiscus and of its wanton destruction of our economic growth prospects.
It will take years if not decades if we are ever to avoid a fiscal blow out and the need for International Monetary Fund, IMF, bail out to counter the fight back by the ANC itself, to
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weed out the rot, to undo the patronage networks, to recapture and rebuild the state in all spheres, to right size and re- capacitate our public administration. It will take years to return to a state of fiscal sustainability. It will take years to reduce government’s debt, to create conditions for investor confidence and reignite economic growth and regain a positive credit rating. Chair, numbers don’t lie. The ruling party has betrayed our nation. It has condemned the whole generation to a life of joblessness, poverty and continuing inequality. Speaker, our country can no longer sustain the misrule and tyranny of the ANC. The ANC can no longer be entrusted with piloting our country. South Africa ... Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the Minister of Finances tabled the 2018 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement under significantly worsening economic circumstances resulting in far less fiscal space to manoeuvre since the tabling of the 2018 Budget in February. During his speech he referred to a favourite scripture Isaiah 58 which states: Those from among you shall build the old waste places, you shall raise the foundations of many
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generations and you shall be called the repairer of the breach and the restorer of the streets to dwell in it.
We, in the ACDP do believe that we are in a process like Nehemiah of rebuilding the walls of our nation. This is after 10 years of fraud, state capture and corruption. The evidence of which was first revealed by the Public Protector in her State of Capture Report. The churches unburdening panel report, the academics report, the leaked Gupta emails and the Eskom parliamentary inquiry of which the report was concluded this morning. We also hear of startling revelations that have been given to both the Zondo and Nugent Commissions of Inquiry. We look forward to action being taken in consequence of these various reports.
The figures that have been shared in the Medium-Term Budget are startling. They paint a dire picture with estimates for economic growth in the medium-term being 1,7%, 2,1%, 2,3% and that could even be cautiously optimistic. We see the budget deficit is much higher than forecast. In February -4,2% up from 3.6% and 4% up
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from 3,5%. As the other speakers have said, this translate into an increased gross loan debt to increase from R2,8 trillion to a staggering R3,7 thousand billion of 58,5% of gross domestic products, GDP. This is mainly to finance the increasing budget deficit. We see fluctuations in inflation, interest and exchange rates affecting the debt. With the weaker rand accounts for about 70% of the R47,6 billion which is the upward revision to gross loan debt in this current financial year. The debt service costs being the fastest growing budget item at R181 billion per year.
Indeed we need a new fiscal anchor. In addition to the expenditure ceiling, we need a fiscal debt ceiling. We cannot continue on this basis. We need political accountability for the situation that we have allowed ourselves to be in over this past
10 years. We need policy certainty and to champion reforms necessary for business and investor confidence. I thank you. [Time expired.]
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Mr N T NHLEKO: Madam Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, we, of the ANC, rise in support of the report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the 2018 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS.
We do so, appreciating the attendant revenue shortfalls that have widened over the past four years rising to R49 billion in 2017-18. It is expected that revenue shortfall will be at R24,7 billion in 2019-20 and R33 billion in 2020-21.
In the circumstance we find ourselves in, it becomes not only crucial to analyse, but properly reflect and articulate in a balanced responsible manner. We have to do this with a view to give hope and direction to our nation.
King Shaka, in a discussion with Zingili Mkhize, counsels in this regard, when he says, I quote:
In danger two courses of action are wrong:
To act precipitately brings the threat nearer;
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To slacken one’s alertness enables the enemy to strike. Heroes are not those who rush to their weapons,
But those who carefully weigh all strategies.
In the meeting of the joint committees; the hon member Shophe- Sithole of the National Assembly, correctly, asserted a point that; we, as parliamentarians cannot get away with failure to deliver and to be held accountable. The buck stops with Members of Parliament. In her own words; - “What about us?”
In the same meeting, the Minister of Finance lamented lack of vigilance in carrying out our mandate and further stated that it was as if he had woken up from a coma; after he had served in the first Cabinet of 1994; realising that Cabinet decisions are yet to be fully implemented.
A clear case in point is the state asset register audit still to be implemented, which rightly is one of the factors among many that contribute to low economic growth, low employment and low tax revenue.
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In this very same report that we are dealing with today, the standing committee reiterates its belief that we need to be far more effective and efficient in our oversight role to the extent that the executive fails to fulfil its responsibilities. This is partly a reflection of the parliamentary committees to effectively fulfil our responsibilities.
I fully identify with these sentiments expressed. When I was a Director-General of the Department of Labour, I brought to this House, a case in which, the Auditor-General had issued a five- year consecutive disclaimer in one of the entities that I was responsible for. In that particular instance, I had instituted a process in terms of section 38 of the Public Finance Management Act.
Similarly, when I was Minister of Police, we had a case that involved African people who were apprehended, kidnapped and murdered, clearly a case of the continuation of the dehumanisation of the African person. Some of our security agencies were implicated in such acts. In all these instances,
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we all looked the other way as nothing was done. Instead, one was subjected to all forms of political profanities you could imagine.
At best, we all sang hymns to the silence. That in itself was dereliction of duty, a profligate act; a negation of responsive and transparent governance, a pre-requisite and duty in our law. It is dishonest to jump up and down, gyrating, gesticulating, shouting for accountability, when, in fact, we do the opposite.
This trail of failure to abide with first class institutional controls of administrative governance as this House, cutting across all political parties; demonstrably speaks quite materially to the cancerous and toxic atmosphere hampering necessary tools to create a conducive, sound and legitimate governance and economic practices.
In response to queries from his mother, Queen Nandi; regarding his setting up of his administration and army; King Shaka, states that, I quote:
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I, too, must follow these laws, whatever the consequences. I must elevate the glory that attends to our nation and army. If I fail and choose only what satisfies my own appetite,
Then there shall be greater disasters than ever before.
So, ladies and gentlemen, in the light of all the institutional structures and systems that we have before us such as the departmental annual reports, the Auditor-General reports and other state institutionalised reporting systems; the question arises; why do we fail to exercise oversight and accountability? Why? Can we honestly seek to establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental rights and succeed at it without transparency, integrity and accountability? If not, how then do we hope to achieve healthy economic growth? It must be noted that oversight and accountability also advances the principles and objectives of the national democratic revolution.
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On the tabling of the MTBPS, the Minister of Finance said, “We must stop talking in controversial terms about our country”.
Stretching this point, I would venture to say that; the negative sentiments that get churned out from some of our societal leadership, perpetuate a long held view by colonial masters that Africans and black people in general are inept, corrupt and lack purpose.
These articulations give rise to sabotage. Instead of us speaking encouragement and optimism through efforts to improve our people's lives, we are stuck in a time warp in which self- inflicted blows of self-destruction; negativity and immobilising pessimism become the new cancer that smothers genuine problem solving and innovation.
This even takes away confidence from foreign direct investment, thus ultimately sabotage our nation's pride and great image. We cannot speak failure and have victory.
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It is common cause that all countries have challenges, particularly corruption. However, it is arguably reasonable that in order to improve the economic outlook as a whole across the broader spectrum, Parliament has to play its oversight and accountability and hold the executive to account. This is to be done through adherence to principles of project management and observance of administrative processes.
Our Constitution in essence seek redress, honest criticism and pointing at wrongs that undermine nationhood, development and the statehood project which safeguards against life-denying practices to humanity, dignity, equality and liberty. Of note ladies and gentlemen; is the need for us to; as Vladimir Lenin would put it; confront dishonesty and retrogressive tendencies among ourselves, as a force of habit.
This calls for a renewal; a clarion call to reinvigoration, a recommitment and rebirth, a self-perpetuating, life redeeming and self-sustained human effort. We have to build ourselves and always stay true to it. The necessary ingredient for us to
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achieve this is patriotism. A patriotism governed by reason, spirit and desire.
We are at an epoch turning point. Crisis breeds opportunities to fix attitudes, in particular, and a re-set, through self- introspection, as to how we resolve challenges.
Now is the time to renew our commitment to nation building as a united people. A time to speak to struggles of an everyday nature as we construct policy. An opportunity wherefrom through all the instruments of prudent and transparent levers of reliable and responsive governance there can be created, salves and amelioration, indeed a restoration of long-promised, cherished dignity and decent livelihood for all.
Mqalane, the High Priest at the Ceremony of Return for Queen Nandi, in making a hero’s pledge to the Palm Race; stated that, I quote:
Only through decay is growth possible.
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New generations feed on the richness of the earth; Their roots extend to the home of the Forefathers. In the next generation our inheritors shall prosper.
We, too, are the plants that come from broken leaves. Our anthems shall be sung by the river;
Our children shall drink from the fountains of our legends.
We need to recommit ladies and gentlemen and dedicate ourselves to fight for the health of the common man and woman, the marginalised and disadvantaged; reclaim the humanity of the African person. Breathe hope through effective administrative and governance systems; thus improving better service delivery and indeed achieves prosperity for all. The ANC stands exactly for this particular value system. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms G S A NGWENYA: House Chairperson, South Africa fell into a recession earlier this year, which meant that we were not just moving slowly but moving backwards.
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According to the Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, GDP growth is now expected to grow at an even lower percentage in 2018.
Although the ANC has made us accustomed to mediocrity, the reality is that South Africa has vast potential to be a globally significant nation with abundant opportunities for the majority who lives in it. Our country is endowed with 2 800 km of coastline, one of the most bio-diverse ecosystems with plants and animal species found nowhere else in the world, and riches in mineral deposits, including 96% of known global reserves of the platinum-group minerals. We also have one of the most sophisticated financial markets in the world. Our natural and intellectual endowments mean that we can be ambitious about our ability to attract the world and investors to our doorstep.
So, at this time of economic crisis in our country, we are in fact not in need of a new beginning but rather of new blood. We can be a modern and forward-looking nation. The trouble is that ANC leaders cannot look forward because their greatest achievements lie in the past. [Applause.] So, they try and convince South Africans that our greatest achievements also lie
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in history. It is no coincidence that if you hear a young, intelligent voice in Parliament, like the hon Nkwankwa or the hon Hlengwa, it will not be from the ANC. The ANC is where new ideas go to die. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
It is thus no surprise that when the ANC looked for a new Minister, they chose yet again a relic from the past. To lecture us on good governance today, we had Mr “Fire Pool”. When confronted with the jobs crisis, it reached back into its 1998 playbook and pulled out a jobs summit – always, always backward looking. It is the Faustian pacts from these summits that have got us here today. The real pacts that are made are that unions will exert their influence on government to rapidly raise wages and in order to buy social capital – the social licence to operate – big business would accept uncompetitive labour demands in exchange for beneficial deals with the politically connected. Those out in the cold were the millions of unemployed and small entrepreneurial firms.
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South Africa can no longer have a governing party that takes sides: the side of big business against small business, the side of unions against the unemployed. We have done it again most recently, with the national minimum wage effectively making it illegal for people to accept work at a price they find acceptable.
South Africa definitely needs new blood and new, innovative ideas that will, in fact, accelerate growth and lead us along the path that we need. South Africa can have a political party that instead looks at having new opportunities instead of the old opportunities or the “old deal”, the old Faustian deal that we are continuously presented with by the government that is currently in place. [Applause.]
Ms T V TOBIAS: Chairperson and hon members, good morning. I raised the point in the finance committee a few weeks ago that the Governor of the Reserve Bank would raise the repo rate by
basis points. This in itself will raise interest rates and raise inflation, hence the budget that we are at today.
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In the same vein, he said the economic growth outlook remains a challenge. Having said this, a strategic manoeuvre in government spending is a temporary damper. Interestingly, in the same vein, the Chinese president will be meeting with the US president on the sidelines of the G20 meeting, hon Minister. Therefore, this in itself is a move that shows international economic growth will change. Therefore, South Africa will not be affected by the trade war if that meeting yields good results. The international trade wars affect developing countries in such a way that it has put South Africa in a technical recession. Guess what, the fools won’t understand.
The South African government also restored trust between government and the people by introducing measures to address challenges of economic growth, as we mentioned earlier during the Money Bills discussions. [Interjections.] The national debt has been reduced. The structure of the deficit has been reduced. The wage bill has been reduced. All this has been done in the face of challenges of rising interesting rates and revised growth. [Interjections.] The South African government has
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implemented growth-enhancing reforms, and the typical examples are the stimulus package and the infrastructure reprioritisation budget that will cost a whopping R50 billion. Thousands of jobs have been established.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Where? Where?
Ms T V TOBIAS: A total of R56 million has been invested. An amount of R5,9 trillion has been budgeted for spending. The ground structure has been changed and R16,5 billion reprioritised for skills funding, R16,2 billion for agriculture, R6,66 billion for the township economy, and free sanitation for schools – with the compliments of the ANC-led government. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
However, we have to address the fiscal slippage by deviations on spending by government departments.
Sesotho:
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Maloko a hlomphehileng, le setjhaba ka kakaretso, nako e fihlile hore re shebe tsela tseo re itelang ka tsona hore na ho a hlokahala hore ha re hwanta ebe re senya ditshebeletso tsa setjhaba. Na ho a hlokahala hore re senye meaho ya mebuso ya selehae?
Hape, mebuso ya selehae e tshwanetse ho mamela ditletlebo tsa setjhaba; ho tea mohlala, ha masepala wa selehae o aha ditsela o tshwanetse ho tobana le setjhaba, ho dumellana le ho tlalehela batho ka ditshebelletso tse tlang ho etsahala, hore setjhaba le sona se ikgotsofatse hore metjha ya melao e latetswe ho isa qetellong.
Makhanselara a tshwanetse ho mamela setjhaba ebile ba tshwanetse ho tloha ho ajweng ha dithendara. A nke ke fetole puo ke tle ka mona baheso.
English:
Let me make it very clear to the hon David Maynier: The ANC conferences make policies on behalf of its general membership.
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There is nothing wrong at all if any member, including Minister Mboweni, if they browse their views. We also do it all the time in the Standing Committee on Finance, so don’t be hypocritical when it relates to you.
Of course, hon members, there is nothing I can do with the obsession of the hon David Maynier with the Minister. I don’t want to speak about his sexual orientation, perhaps, or his inferior complexities. [Interjections.] Perhaps he likes you. Also, let me make it very clear to hon members ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chairperson, I would ask that you ask the member that she withdraw what she’s just said. It is a deeply personally insulting comment, and if she is trying to use it as some form of slur, it makes it even worse because it would question what her view is on LGBTI people. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): What was it?
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Ms T V TOBIAS: I said he likes him.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: She should be ashamed of herself! Her party says it won’t discriminate against gay people, and then you are using it as a slur!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We will look at the Hansard for that. Thank you. Continue, hon member.
Ms T V TOBIAS: Chairperson, I need to make it very clear: I respect the LGBTI society. I just said he likes him. [Interjections.] There’s nothing wrong if he likes him.
An HON MEMBER: You’re disgusting!
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon members, the national debt has decreased. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! I will rule on that! Order! Continue, hon member.
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Ms T V TOBIAS: Let me state another fact. The national debt will decrease in the outer years. It has been presented in the budget. The fiscal responsibility has always made our country be recognised by rating agencies. That is why we are classified as a stable country. [Interjections.]
I also need to say to the EFF that it is an illusion that government has cut down on essential services. I have listed the budget expenditure items that have increased. Targeted expenditure has been proposed by the Standing Committee on Finance. Had you taken care to read the report, you would have seen our very specific recommendation on targeted expenditure.
Well, of course, you don’t belong to our committee. Therefore, it makes sense that you will not understand.
With reference to the IFP, hon Hlengwa, you call us “babulali”. Really? Do you call the ANC murderers? I do not want to look back. [Interjections.] If at all the ANC is clueless, Mr Hlengwa, you want to make us believe the millions of houses the ANC has built are nothing? You want us to believe that free
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health services are nothing? You want us to believe that free education is nothing? [Interjections.] Well, let’s check what happened when your party led a particular Bantustan.
Mr X NGWEZI: Chairperson, on a point of order: Mr Hlengwa didn’t say what the hon member is saying there. She was not listening properly. [Interjections.] Mr Hlengwa didn’t say that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Alright, that is a point of debate. Continue, hon member.
Ms D CARTER: Chair, on a point of order: The member is misleading the House. It is not the ANC. It is the taxpayers’ money! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, that is not a point of order. Continue, hon Tobias. Hon members, please lower your voices! Let’s carry on with the debate. [Interjections.]
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Ms T V TOBIAS: Chairperson, I find it very surprising that the hon Kwankwa, who is a banker by profession, misunderstands the fact that the Reserve Bank is established by an Act of government, the Banks Act. Therefore, its mandate is stipulated very clearly in the Banks Act. Opportunistically, today, you stand before us and want to pretend that the macroeconomic policy of the South African government is not made by the President and Minister of Finance but by the Governor of the Reserve Bank. Really? Let’s get our facts right. Are you a real banker or not? [Interjections.]
Let me also remind you, in relation to trade matters, the Minister of Trade and Industry ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, I can’t hear, and when I am unable to hear, I cannot ... [Interjections.]
Ms T V TOBIAS: ... signed a free trade area, which this House, in the absence of the hon Kwankwa, has ratified.
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Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, on a point of order: The point is about goal dependence and instrument independence. The independence of the central bank is captured in the Constitution, but the political mandate is set by government. It is simple. It is monetary economics.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Kwankwa, you cannot debate with the member at the podium. Continue, hon member. That is not a point of order.
Ms T V TOBIAS: Chair, let me also tell you that the “Chief Howler”, the Chief Whip of the Opposition, quoted section 54 of the Constitution that speaks about the privilege of Ministers, not the lie he was peddling here.
With reference to the hon Wessels, who is blinded by criticising the ANC, he is not even aware that, as I am standing at this podium, there is a commission called the State Capture Commission that is bringing people to book for their actions – therefore, compliments of the ANC. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
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Hon Carter, it is very difficult to listen to ... [Time expired.] [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Chair ...
Mr J D MAYNIER: Chairperson, on a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Gungubele, please take your seat. Your time will not be touched. Yes, hon member?
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order under Rule 92. I wonder if somebody could explain why the Minister is not responding to the debate.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member ... [Interjections.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: Is he perhaps under a gagging order? [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): That’s not a point of order, please! Continue, hon Deputy Minister. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Madam Chair. Good day.
The central challenge that South Africa faces is to raise economic growth and reduce unemployment ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Hon Deputy Minister, please wait. Hon Kohler-Barnard, hon Dlamini, please. The gestures are referred to in our Rules. What I have observed I’m not going to allow to continue. Continue, hon Deputy Minister.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPPOSITION PARTY: Madam House
Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order. There appears to be something wrong with the system, because it’s saying that now speaking is hon T T Mboweni. We know that he’s been gagged, and that’s why the hon Gungubele is here.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay, thank you. You are correct, hon member. There have been changes. I’m sorry that I did not inform you. Continue, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: We are saying that the central challenge facing our country ... [Interjections.] ... is to raise economic growth, reduce unemployment.
We know that unemployment remains high, and many low- and middle-income households are contending with higher prices for water, electricity and transport. The quality of public expenditure is often poor. We accept government’s problems as severe, particularly at the provincial and local government levels and in state-owned companies.
Government is committed to tackling all these problems. That is why we support the committee reports. [Interjections.]
Twenty eighteen highlights the difficult economic fiscal choices confronting our government over the medium term. It sets out an
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ambitious reform agenda to boost growth, reduce cost pressures, and improve financial governance. [Interjections.]
Relative to Budget 2018, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement showed a significant widening of the deficit, largely driven by revenue shortfalls. The expenditure ceiling remains intact as a key anchor of fiscal policy, despite spending pressures.
Gross debt is expected to stabilise at 59% of GDP in 2023-24. That is what we are committed to, reflecting higher borrowing, rising interest rates and rand depreciation, those being the sources of explanation of this change.
We agree that government cannot continue to borrow at this rate. A part that stabilises and reduces the national debt must always be tightened and get better in terms of its ingredients.
Government needs to reduce the structural deficit, we agree, particularly by tackling the consistently high growth in the real public sector wage bill and a number of other cost drivers that undermine our ability to reduce this gap.
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In addition, the expenditure ceiling ... new fiscal anchors may be required, we agree. The candid nature of messaging in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement 2018 has been applauded, but general feedback was that the fiscal seepage was larger than anticipated, and that the reform agenda had not gone far enough to move things the way we wanted. Even when we had interactions with rating agencies, this matter was raised. [Interjections.]
Looking ahead, government needs to take some difficult decisions to get the economy onto a higher growth path and encourage job creation. Some of them are articulated in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.
The President’s plan to support economic recovery provides essential elements needed to bolster confidence. A crucial component of this package is the intention to partner with the private sector to increase investment in infrastructure.
Having said that, the difference between us and anybody else is that we know ... [Interjections.] ... we know we are facing a
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fiscal sustainability challenge which finds expression in the debt to GDP ratio, the high wage bill, fast-growing debt costs and a need to improve expenditure composition. [Interjections.]
Because we are a leading party ... that’s why we are in line with the portfolio committee’s report. Our duty is in the terrain of finding solutions to this problem, and not in the terrain of political stone throwing. The difference between us and those who are throwing stones is that they are throwing stones post-1994. We threw stones before 1994, because that was the time to throw the stones because the leadership was illegitimate, racist and unacceptable. At that point, we understood why stones had to be thrown. We wanted to undermine that government. It was an illegitimate government. It was not a people’s government. At that time, you were propping that government up. A number of you ... You have actually realised how nice it is to throw stones post-1994.
Now, we are not going to engage you in the game of throwing stones because we’ve got, as we keep on telling you, a
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leadership responsibility. I don’t want to talk about parties that are scared of running even 100 million municipalities ... [Interjections.] ... that had over every opportunity of leadership so that they continue to be throwing stones. Because the only capacity they have is to throw stones. That’s why they are scared of leading anything. [Interjections.]
So we can’t waste time engaging people on leadership issues when they are not leading. We contest a turf of leadership because we are leading.
IsiXhosa:
Kuba siyakhokela akunjalo?
English:
And so, all I want to say is that, having acknowledged these challenges, we are saying, we are spending a lot of our time providing solutions. We are going to speak at length on this matter when we deal with the Appropriation Bill. We support the committee report. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
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Debate concluded.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Report accordingly adopted.
UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
(Ruling)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, earlier on, hon Mnguni rose on a point of order in terms of Rule 85 where hon Maynier referred to hon Carrim as a special communist who
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chose to fight his struggle from hotels. This is a point of debate and therefore not sustained.
UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
(Ruling)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): In her speech, hon Tobias made reference to hon Maynier’s obsession with the Minister of Finance and alluded that it might be related to his sexual orientation or inferiority complex. Assembly Rule 84 states that no member shall use offensive, abusive, insulting, disrespectful or unbecoming unparliamentary words or language, nor offensive, unbecoming or threatening gestures. Remarks of a sexist, personal or hurtful nature are out of order. I therefore ask hon Tobias to withdraw her reference to the sexual orientation of hon Maynier as well as that he has an inferiority complex. [Interjections.]
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Order, hon members, I am making a ruling. You are making a noise.
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, I withdraw unreservedly. [Applause.]
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS ON 2018 MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
Motion agreed to.
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Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HOME AFFAIRS - ELECTORAL LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
No objections.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
ELECTORAL LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
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(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order, hon members! Will those who leave the Chamber do so quietly and without any disruptions, please?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, A little over five months from now the term of the fifth Parliament will come to an end, triggering the start of the 90-day Constitutional window during which elections must be held. These coming national and provincial elections coincide with the 25th anniversary of our historic first democratic elections in 1994 when millions of our people stood shoulder-to-shoulder in long queues to cast their first votes for a free, democratic, nonsexist and nonracial South Africa.
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During the past 25 years, under the stewardship of the IEC, we have seen our multiparty electoral democracy evolve, flourish, mature and now having to cope with digital transformation or revolution. Since 1999, we have seen our voters’ roll grow from around 18 million people to over 26 million people currently.
The number of registered political parties has expanded from under 100 parties to nearly 600 today. We have seen the number of voting stations almost double from about 14 000 to almost
932 planned for next year.
The first amendment seeks to protect the IEC brand and provide for the prohibition of the use of the name of the Independent Electoral Commission, its acronym, logo, designs or electoral material. The well-known blue and white ballot box with IEC on the side has become synonymous with integrity, trust and electoral excellence, both here and abroad.
It is an asset worth protecting. The amendment seek to prevent confusion between this Constitutional institution and other agencies or institutions working in the electoral landscape —
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including those conducting corporate, student, union and other elections.
A second key area of amendments relates to the compilation and maintenance of the national common voters’ roll, not disenfranchising people. We have addressed matters raised by the Constitutional Court. Our approach is to adhere to the Constitutional ruling in relation to the requirements of addresses, while ensuring that we do not disenfranchise our citizens.
The accuracy, integrity and inclusiveness of the voters’ roll are a cornerstone of free and fair elections. Accordingly, the Bill provides an alternative voting process for voters whose addresses do not appear on the voters’ roll. On Election Day, such a voter may present herself at a voting station. She will be given a form on which to record her address before being issued with both national and provincial ballots.
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For those persons whom it is impossible to provide an address or adequate description of place of residence, such a person may be issued with only a national ballot. This is good balance in view of the apartheid history of excluding the majority, particularly black, the poor and the marginalised from the voting process.
We would like to say: Please remember that in order to vote, you must be registered; and in order to register, you must have an ID card or book. We urge all South Africans to apply, collect their IDs and register to vote now for the ongoing registration process which is happening in our municipalities or on 26-27 January 2019, during a voter registration weekend.
We, under the stewardship of the IEC, are looking forward to your co-operation and we are ready to run the best election ever. I move that the House approves the Electoral Laws Amendment Bill. I thank you.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chair, let me first take this opportunity to welcome the new Minister. We don’t say new from the box because
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we have been with you for quite some time and I think all of us can bear testimony of his capacity and his ability to lead the Department of Home Affairs.
Immediately after the Constitutional Court ruling, the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, embarked on the process of voter registration, not only the issue of voter registration but to deal then with the issue of making sure that all voters are captured in the voters’ roll with addresses. That process, as the Minister has just confirmed it, went through during the level of voter registration and then the ongoing registration that is taking place.
I want to take this opportunity to thank the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs to have been able to process this Bill as a matter of urgency because you’ll remember that it was only presented to the committee almost three weeks ago; at the same time we were able to source the public view around this particular legislation.
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Setswana:
Jaanong, fa re boela morago go lebelela lebaka la gore Kgotlatshekelo ya Molaotheo e tseye tshweetso ya gore IEC le puso ba tshwanetse ba netefatse gore maina le diaterese tsa batlhophi di a tlhagelela mo lenaneng la batlhophi; ke tshweetso e e tshusumeditsweng ke seo se diragetseng kwa Tlokwe morago ga gore Rre Kham le ba bangwe ba ise IEC kwa kgotlatshekelo. Mme IEC e ne ya netefatsa gore re kgona go mametlelela Molaotlhomo ono gompieno.
Molaotlhomo ono o re o mametlelelang gompieno ga se one fela o o tsamaisang ditlhopho. Re lebile gape le dithata tseo IEC e tlileng go nna le tsona tsa gore e nne yone e e kwadisang diaterese tsa batlhophi ka letsatsi la ditlhopho.
Mametlelelo eno e tlile go thusa gape ka tsamaiso ya ditlhopho tsa selegae gore fa go tlhophiwa, diaterese tsa batlhophi di tlhagelele mo lenaneng la batlhophi.
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Molaotlhomo ono o tlile go fa gape IEC dithata tsa go tsereganya fa go na le dikgotlhang ka fa gare ga makoko a sepolotiki go netefatsa gore dikgotlhang tseo ga di kgoreletse ditlhopho go ka tswelela pele.
English:
In the process of this engagement that we had on this amendment, the DA came with a proposed Private Member’s Bill sponsored by hon Waters. We tried as much as possible to look at the issues that were raised in the Private Member’s Bill and it was very clear that the only interest that the DA had was to capture the voters who are in Canada and London. They have not really looked at the best interest of making sure that all voters in the country are given this opportunity.
At the same time, these amendments that we are dealing with today, will then assist to confirm that all those who have voted
– you’ll recall that anyone who votes, his/her ID gets stamped; we now have a smart ID which we are proud of as the ANC that this government has now managed to give more than 10 million
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South Africans a beautiful card called the smart card ID, as compared to that old dompass that we used to be given by the people on the left here. [Applause.] Now, you don’t put a stamp on a smart card ID, it will then be taken and confirmed digitally that this individual has voted.
But one of the things that we must address, Chairperson, is that you have a party in Parliament called the DA, that is voted by the majority of African people and yet when you look at its composition in the NA, the majority of the people that are here are white South Africans voted by black ... majority of the black people in the DA are seated at the back. It worries me when I look at them and I ask myself a question of “Why do you put all the black people at the corner there and all of you are here in front?” [Interjections.] For me it’s a concern that ... moving forward, is that the people of South Africa must now know that we killed apartheid in 1994 but apartheid is still alive in this arrangement that I see here. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
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Therefore, as we go to vote next year, let’s take into account that as much as you may want to have changed the colour, the jackal still remains the jackal that we see today here; it is not changing. It tried to get into the sheep skin; the sheep skin does not cover it. So, we agree that it’s a party that we must not trust.
And my biggest worry again is that the fight that you see in the NA between the EFF and the DA; the EFF must take the position that it must stop supporting this wolf that is covered in a sheep skin. The EFF must be very clear, if you’re a revolutionary, this is an opportunity to break this tie with an immediate effect because it does not help you to come into this House and fight with these people when you have an alliance with them. Kill the alliance. Let’s agree that you are a stand-alone party and leave us to deal with this particular party that we have to deal with. [Applause.]
Chairperson, we’ll not allow that our elections to be disturbed by anyone. We are calling on the SA Police Service and the SA
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Defence Force as they always assist in the process to make sure that we have free and fair elections.
But I will definitely not stop to expose this party called the DA that claims so much that they are democratic. In fact, I will be surprised today when we deal with this Bill that the DA will come openly and support it.
Look at the wonderful work that was done by the electoral commission. Since 1994 to date, a wonderful foundation has been laid on elections. Commissioners with credibility have come and gone.
The DA today will come and say they are opposing this Bill. South Africans must watch them. If they come and oppose it, you must then know that they don’t even respect the beautiful foundation that we have set for the ... [Inaudible.] We are the example if you look at the running of the elections in South Africa because of the credible people who made sure that these
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people become credible, only through the leadership of the ANC. [Interjection.]
Mr T W MHLONGO: Chairperson, can a member take a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Are you prepared to take a question, hon member? [Interjections.]
Mr H P CHAUKE: I’m fine, I can take a question.
Mr T W MHLONGO: Are you part of the delegation that will go to the Zondo Commission?
Mr H P CHAUKE: What is the question?
Mr T W MHLONGO: Are you part of the delegation that will appear at the Zondo Commission?
Mr H P CHAUKE: You see now? You can see the confusion. We’re dealing with elections here, we’re dealing with the credibility
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of the elections then someone talks about the Zondo Commission. [Time Expired.] What has the Zondo Commission got to do with this electoral law? It has nothing to do. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M H HOOSEN: Hon Chauke, you speak like you are an expert on the DA. You predicted that we will not be supporting this Bill, but it is clear and it shows that actually, you know very little about the DA because we will be supporting this Bill.
So when you stand here and you speak like you are an expert on the DA, it means you know nothing about the DA, and those people who are listening to you will not take you seriously.
However, hon Chairperson, this Bill contains a number of progressive proposals, which seek to streamline our electoral process and strengthen our democratic process.
As the DA, we have consistently supported and promoted measures to ensure that our electoral process is as accessible as
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possible for all South Africans and that the outcomes of elections are indeed free and fair.
If we do not fight hard to promote a free and fair process, our democracy will fail and our country will fail. It is for these reasons that the DA will be supporting this Bill.
Hon Chairperson, while we do so, we also have to highlight some of the concerns that we have expressed while the portfolio committee was attending to this Bill.
Before our committee, were two Bills as hon Chauke has mentioned
the one that is dealing with electoral laws is this Bill, and there was another Bill that was dealing with other electoral laws. That Bill was filed by hon Waters as hon Chauke has mentioned.
That Bill, hon Chairperson, made a number of progressive proposals, which would make voting easier for the hundreds and thousands of voters who are working outside of the country, to
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exercise their constitutional right to vote. It did not mention specifically Canada and London as the hon Chauke has strictly misled you. For example, one of the proposals was to increase the number of voting stations outside of the country, so that more citizens who are living abroad can exercise their constitutional right to vote.
This is not an uncommon practice as many countries in the world, go out of their way to make sure that all citizens, wherever they may be in the world, can exercise their right to vote.
In fact, some countries even make it obligatory that every single citizen of their country casts a vote in a national election. They do this to ensure that electoral outcomes reflect the will of all its citizens, not just some.
However, when the portfolio committee was faced with following the same international best practice, the ANC, did everything in their power to prevent that Bill or its proposals from being
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considered, which is why today we only have one Bill before the House today.
It is clear, therefore, that the ANC will only support electoral proposals that benefit them and they are not serious about protecting the rights of all South Africans citizens.
In fact, some of the comments that the ANC members in the committee made were nothing short of shocking. Why should any person who is working outside of South Africa have an interest in the country they ask?
Well, we want to send a message today to all South Africans who are living abroad. The ANC does not want you to vote. The ANC does not want you to exercise your constitutional right. The ANC wants to make it as difficult as possible for you to cast your vote in the next elections.
This is why you who are living and working abroad, must do everything humanly possible to mobilise as many South Africans
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citizens who are living abroad, to claim your rightful place and exercise your constitutional right to vote. [Applause.]
Whilst we the DA are fighting for you here in Parliament, you must fight the ANC in the ballot box. South Africa belongs to you too. Hon Chairperson, in the run-up to almost every election, we see a sudden increase of government events; a sudden increase in expenditure for advertising on billboards, newspapers and radio.
We all know that ANC Ministers, premiers and mayors find creative ways to divert public funds for the benefit of the ANC campaign. We are not stupid, we see you. And then the all too common food parcel handouts become familiar in the weeks running up to the elections. We are not stupid, we see you.
Well, this Bill now prohibits the use of public funds for election campaigns. We want to send another strong message to the ANC who are the main culprits of this illegal practice. In this election, we will not accept you’re cheating. We will hold
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you accountable and we will not keep quiet. Because in every election, the ANC resorts to all forms of cheating just to get extra votes.
We also want to send a strong message to those officials who sign off on the expenditure of these events and advertising. Remember, there are laws in this country and we will hold you too responsible for allowing yourselves to succumb to the political pressure of using public funds for campaign purposes.
And then we want to send a message to the voters. If they bring you food parcels in this next election, take it. In fact, take two. Mobilise everyone single person in your community and go enjoy the food parcels because it is your tax money, not the ANC’s money.
And when the food parcels are finished, you must toyi-toyi for some more. But when you get to the voting station, they the ANC will not know whom you are voting for, so take the food parcel, but vote for the DA. [Applause.]
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If the ANC promises you jobs to vote for them. Take the job, but vote for the DA, they will not know. If the ANC threatens to take your grant away if you don’t vote for them, they are lying to you. They will never ever know whom you voted for. Your vote is secret.
Finally, hon Chairperson, we would like to thank the IEC for finally including these provisions of prohibiting the use of public funds for election campaigns. This is a step in the right direction.
However, this provision will not be worth the paper it is written on if the IEC fails to implement this provision and act against the corrupt ANC when these funds are used for campaign purposes. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson, firstly, let me just clarify few things to the Deputy Minister of Finance, unfortunately he left the House and to Mr Chauke, that the voters made the EFF kingmakers. So, ideologically and politically you must go and
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check what does that mean. They didn’t make us government. They didn’t give us a mandate to govern. So, go and govern. You do it wrongly or you do it right, it is your problem not ours.
While we welcome some of the changes that the Electoral Laws Amendment Bill will bring about, we are also concern with a number of others.
We welcome the fact that parties will now be able to register electronically, as this will mean there is more contestation, which is good for our democracy.
We welcome the addition of Clause 4, which will allow the Electoral Court to hear intraparty disputes and thereafter, where necessary make rulings. We welcome clause 11 which will allow political parties to substitute candidates on a party list, if they appear on more than one list.
However, we do have other concerns. The fact that the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, law is not implemented on
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the day of elections, when the ANC distribute T-shirts right at the voting station, when campaigning is closing at twelve midnight the previous day and we are also concerned with the fact that you utilise the services of the school principals as presiding officers over the your elections which are dominated by the South African Democratic Teachers Union, SADTU, which is a Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, affiliate and the ANC tripartite alliance.
We are also very concerned with the fact that you chose to employ people that are in the working Budget of the government, yet there is a high unemployment rate in South Africa. you leave people that don’t have work. You don’t employ them, rather you employ this SADTU affiliates.
We are concerned about the exact procedures mentioned in Clause 12 which will allow those without addresses to not only
vote in national elections, but provincial elections as well. As we know in the past the ANC has abused and bussed people from
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various provinces, even from Lesotho, and this will make the process open to manipulation.
We are very concerned and object to Clause 17, which amends Section 87 of the Electoral Act, and prohibits the use of public funds, except those allocated in terms of the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act 103 of 1997.
We are also concerned that the Clause 7 is not clear on how to determine where South African residents who are staying abroad are ordinarily a resident in South Africa, allowing political parties to influence that process for their own ulterior motives.
The last concern we are having is the fact that the IEC will give us temporal voting stations and those temporal voting stations come in maybe for two hours at a certain area, yet the people of that area are not ready to go to that certain voting station and they move to the next voting station. That is where you leave a room for manipulation and stealing of votes by the
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ANC predominantly. So, that must stop. A temporal voting station must be there for twelve hours or until the time when the voters are not coming to the voting station anymore. Thank you very much.
Ms S J NKOMO: Chairperson, as our democracy matures and as political contestation increases and evens itself out, it will be critical that the institutions such as the IEC are strengthened beyond political interference, as they are vital
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Nkomo, may I just asked these members who are standing to take the seats? I can’t even see you. You may now continue.
Ms S J NKOMO: As I was stating that the IEC is actually strengthened beyond political interference and they are vital and not only in underpinning our democracy, but also in empowering ordinary South Africans.
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The right to vote in free and fair elections is the right which we need to be promoted always. This Bill which we support, as the IFP or the amendment to this Bill are actually critical when one looks at certain issues which actually seek to amend three pieces of crucial legislation which will have a substantive impact in next year’s elections.
We have a good electoral system which needs a lot of supporting. The IFP has always suggested improvements under the leadership of Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi as I stated last week and I quoted decades and I am still doing it. It was the best of times.
Being the Minister of Home Affairs, gave me the authority to appoint the van Zyl Slabbert Commission to investigate South Africa’s electoral system and recommend electoral reform in needed.
The Commission’s report recommended abandoning the proportional representation list system and adopting a mix system between
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constituency and proportional representation. The ANC vehemently rejected that recommendation. In fact, I was instructed by Cabinet not to distribute the Report, but to destroy it. I was raked over the coal by Cabinet when I sent the report to a university for safekeeping, but I have never regretted for sending this report to university.
Whilst the IFP supports these amendments we would like to caution against a lot of rigging which has happened previously and that is the rigging of votes where you find that people are even bussed to areas where you find that party agents are even refused permission in voting stations to lodge their complaints.
We are appealing that all is taken care of. The IFP supports these amendments. Thank you
Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, the NFP welcomes and supports the Electoral Laws Amendment Bill.
IsiZulu:
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Angisho nje ukuthi njengoba kuyilesikhathi simukela lo Mthethosivivinywa futhi siwuxhasa. Angisho ukuthi sekuyisikhathi ukuthi abantu bakithi batshelwe noma yikuphi lapho bekhona ukuthi abaphume ngobuningi, bayobhalisela ukuvota laba abangakaze babhalise ngoba yilapho phela sihambisa khona intando yeningi siyiqhubezela phambili. Nokuba izidingo zalelizwe sizenze, zibekhona futhi siqede ububha nobuphofu obukhona ezweni lakithi. Ayikho indlela esingenza ngayo ngaphandle kokuba abantu bakhuthazwe ukuba bayobhalisela ukuvota. Kuthi laba bakithi abangabanga nenhlanhla yokuthi baye ezikoleni bafunde, njengabadala bethu nabo balekelelwe ukuthi u-IEC aqhube abalekelele ukuba bakwazi ukuthi babhalise indlela okuyiyona.
Siyajabula ukuzwa ukuthi u-IEC kulo Mthethosivivinywa owuletha la ikhona indlela lapho ukuthi aqinise khona uhlelo lezokufunda [voter education.] Siyathokoza futhi ukubona ukuthi u-IEC emnyakeni enza umsebenzi, uwenze ngokwethembeka, yaqina intando yeningi. Sizoqhubeka siyixhasa into efana nale.
English:
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Now, the mandate of the IEC is to prepare and deliver credible free and fair elections within the prescripts enshrined in the Constitution and other related legal framework. To execute this mandate, it is incumbent upon the IEC to act with independence and impartiality as provided in the law.
The IEC must ensure a space conducive to the fulfilment of this mandate. The judgement of the Constitutional Court on the Tlokwe matter called upon the IEC to provide a credible and reliable voter’s roll with all the details of voters as contained in the judgement.
In line with the verdict, the IEC had to provide physical addresses for all the voters within a particular district or municipality or ward within eighteen months. The various steps were taken by the IEC to comply with the ruling to the extent that the IEC had to pray the court to grant an extension to this matter. The aim was to ensure credibility and to circumvent any bussing of people from other territories to vote somewhere and this was marrying the credibility of the election. This Bill
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therefore aims to amend certain pieces of legislation; the Electoral Commission Act 51 of 1996, the electoral act of 1998, and also to amend the local government municipal electoral act of 2000.
IsiZulu:
Siyajabula ukuzwa ukuthi umazisi asikho isidingo sokuthi agxivizwe nokuthi umuntu uma ngabe esebonile ukuthi, hhayi iphepha aliphethe lonakele engakalifaki, uyobuyela emuva aphinde ayoshintsha akwazi ukufaka elinye iphepha elidingekayo. Ibekhona inkinga uma ke kuhlukaniswa izindawo zokuvota ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.]
Mr M L W FILTANE: House Chairperson, section 19(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, confers a right to every citizen; to free, fair and regular elections for any legislative body established by the Constitution.
In six months’ time, our country will be holding its 6th national and provincial democratic elections and the Bill in
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front of us, is intended to ensure that ours, is indeed, a free and fair election.
Free and fair elections are important because, with a vote comes a voice. A country is not truly democratic until its citizens have the opportunity to choose their representatives through elections that are free and fair.
When citizens cannot speak freely or circumstances make it difficult for them to participate in an election, the people become effectively disenfranchised and their rights and interests are suppressed.
Critical development efforts cannot succeed without a legitimate and democratically elected government that is responsive and accountable to the people. Free and fair elections provide an important opportunity to advance democracy. They encourage political freedom.
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It is in this context that the UDM supports the Bill and its purpose. The UDM calls upon all South Africans who are eligible to vote, to go and register and supply all the relevant information required by the Electoral Commission.
Remember, whilst the final registration weekend for the 2019 elections is on 26 and 27 January, registration can also be done in the offices of the Municipal Electoral Officers. So, let us go and register to vote, vote correctly and soberly this time around.
We must not miss the opportunity to demonstrate that there are solutions to the challenges that face our nation, especially of the ANC creation. We can unite and work together towards creating better villages, townships, towns, cities and indeed a great and a winning nation.
We have it in our power to effect changes that will result in genuine improvements in the lives of all South Africans. There
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is one thing that we, as citizens, can all agree on, change of government is necessary.
In this election, voters will not simply be choosing between one political party and another. It is either they choose another five years of the same old discredited policies or poor service or choose change for the better. The UDM is ready to work with the citizenry to bring about this necessary change.
Yesterday, we were bombarded by this party, with claims of an improved political, social and economic landscape over the past
24 years. But if you look at our daily lives, you’ll realise that many of these claims are overstated. When the ANC government claims to have built houses, it is houses that are crumbling. The roads are full of potholes.
Fellow South Africans, we have much work to do. Go and vote right. Put these people to the dustbin. [Time expired.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, before I call hon Swart, I have now asked both the Whips of the DA and the ANC to talk to the members - two of their members, who are making phone calls or receiving phone calls in the House. That is not allowed. It shouldn’t happen. If you want to make a call, go outside and do it outside, please. The next speaker is the hon Swart.
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP supports this Bill. The amendments will bring the Electoral Act into line and seeks to streamline the electoral process to be as accessible as possible with the free and fair election and the free and fair outcome.
Before next year’s elections, we would also look forward to the Political Party Funding Bill been signed into law. It has been passed already by this House and it is sitting on the President’s desk. It is crucial that this Bill is signed into law. It also makes party funding transparent and will which individuals and companies support political parties.
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In terms of this Bill, we also support the banning of the use of public funds for electioneering purposes – those are state funds. We would urge parties, particularly the majority party- the ANC to not tell the social welfare recipients that would lose their pensions if they do not vote ANC. This is not true.
These are public funds, they cannot be taken away. Your votes are secret. So, if you vote for another party, your social welfare funds are secure.
We have as the ACDP and many in this House and the Minister of Finance has indicated that this nation is at the crossroads. We have the opportunity to choose which way to go ... [Interjections.]
Mr H P CHAUKE: On a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Swart, will just take your seat, please? Why are you rising, hon member?
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Mr H P CHAUKE: House Chairperson, we always respect hon Swart, but hon Swart ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is the point of order?
Mr H P CHAUKE: Hon Swart says that the ANC ... [Inaudible.] ... food parcels. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that’s not a point of order. It is a point of debate. Please take your seat!
Mr H P CHAUKE: And we like you, hon Swart. Don’t lie, please.
Mr S N SWART: Yes, indeed. So, we are at the crossroads. We as the ACDP believes that one has a choice entering this new election period as to who we are going to choose and what political party we going to choose to represent us.
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As I did earlier today, the Minister of Finance, hon Tito Mboweni, also mentioned the Scriptures. Let us look at what guidance Scripture gives us, as to how to conduct elections. The Bible, at Exodus 18 verse 21, states that we should elect capable men from our people, men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain. These are four simple principles. Just think, if we had followed those principles in our elections, where would we be as a nation? We would not have such fraud, corruption and state capture.
The Bible again gives us guidance in Proverbs 29 verse 2, when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when the wicked beareth rule, the people groan or mourn. Now, I put it to you. Are our people rejoicing or mourning? I would submit that our people are not rejoicing. There is much mourning.
So, hope the deferred makes the heart sick but longing fulfilled is a tree of life. We would submit and urge that it is time for change and it is time to vote for the ACDP. I thank you.
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Mr N L S KWANKWA: On a point of order, House Chair. While hon Swart was on the podium, hon Chauke accused him of lying and that is unparliamentary. Can we ask him to withdraw because this is an hon Member of Parliament.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I refer you to Rule 92(2).
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): It says that you should have raised that point of order immediately.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, I didn’t want to disturb the speaker. I mean, we have done it many times. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I won’t entertain it then.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, you are out of order, House Chairperson.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You should have risen on a point of order at the time.
Sepedi:
Mna M D KEKANA: E re ke šupetše pele ke tšwela pele ka mošomo wo gore mokgatlo wo mogolo wa badimo le batho, o thekga Molaokakanywa wo. Ke nyaka le go bontšha gore re kgotsofetše, ebile re thabile ge re ekwa mekgatlo ka bontši e thekga Molaokakanywa wo. E tla no ba mekgatlo ye mebedi yeo e lego gore ga e re thekge, efela e tšhaba go tšwelela. Bjale re re batho ba se ke ba lebala gore mokgatlo wo ke wona o ba ntšhitšego kua Egepeta. Ke nako bjale; re mo tseleng, re ya Kanana. Ke ba bantši bao ba tšwilego mokgatlong wo. Ke nyaka gore le batho ba gopole gore yona mekgatlo ye kamoka ga yona ya kganetšo, e tšwa go mokgatlo wo mogolo wa ANC. Modulasetulo ...
English:
There is a reason we celebrate South Africa’s national day on 27 April each year. Freedom Day will forever be associated with the day our people first exercised their right to cast a ballot and
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choose their own future in their own country. All these things happened because of the ANC. The right of citizens to participate in our electoral process is at the heart of our constitutional democracy.
The Electoral Laws Amendment Bill is a technical one aimed at giving effect to technical modalities of preparations elections on the one hand and ensuring free and fair elections on the other hand. It is the duty of this august House that we intervene through this Bill with a view to the realisation of free and fair elections in 2019.
The Bill seeks to facilitate the enjoyment of this right by providing clarity and certainty in a number of electoral aspects. The intervention of this House through this Bill will immensely contribute to the richness of our electoral democracy. Foremost among these is to secure the franchise for voters who do not have conventional addresses or whose addresses were not adequately recorded. Through no fault of their own, these voters have been left in no-man’s land with their standing on the
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voters’ roll called into question and the subject of on-going litigation and debate.
We need to call to mind one of the judgment of the Constitutional Court where the erstwhile Judge, Albie Sachs, intimated that voting is badge of honour for our citizens. This means that the right to vote is linked with the vindication of the right to human dignity. The Constitutional Court in its wisdom recently ruled to resolve this for next year’s elections by extending the suspension of the declaration of invalidity in respect of addresses to November next year.
The court also provided clear guidance on the balance between the importance of retaining the voting rights for all registered voters and the need to ensure the integrity of the voters’ roll. The Electoral Laws Amendment Bill seeks to facilitate this crucial balance by providing legislative certainty in how to secure the rights of all registered voters while protecting the integrity of the voters. The importance of a clear and well-
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understood legislative and regulatory framework as a foundation for free and fair elections which is the international norm.
Indeed, the electoral contest can only be fair when all the players are playing by the same rule book. The lack of clarity and certainty in this area over the past few years has been a source of contestation and frustration for political parties, candidates, voters and the Electoral Commission alike. All stakeholders will therefore benefit equally from the proposed amendments.
It is important that all citizens be afforded an opportunity to inspect a provisionally compiled voters’ roll so that everyone finds their comfort with the reasonable correctness of the voters’ roll before it is certified ahead of elections. This is important in order to avoid situations where objections to the voters’ roll are brought too close to the elections in circumstances where the commission has little scope to investigate and take corrective action.
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This Bill provides for the amendment to the election timetable in order to create requisite opportunity for the publication of a provisionally compiled voters’ roll and thus an opportunity for objections which must be determined before the roll is certified for elections. Again, this intervention is meant to bring an orderly preparation of elections which is an indispensable component of free and fair elections demanded by Constitution.
The amendments will also prepare South Africa’s electoral legislative framework for greater accessibility and efficiencies by opening the way for the expanded use of technology in the process. The imperatives of the Fourth Industrial Revolution demand of us to employ emerging technologies in order to seek efficiencies in the total governance system of our country. This includes the future possibility of electronic registration of voters accompanied by requisite safeguards as well as the electronic application for party registration. Technology is an important enabler of participation in a country with vast distances and limited resources.
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In conclusion, the Electoral Laws Amendment Bill provides a range of legislative amendments aimed at further protecting, securing and facilitating the right to vote first enjoyed by all our citizens almost 25 years ago. Again, all this happens because of the ANC. We know that the parties ...
Sepedi:
... kamoka ga tšona di tšwa mokgatlong wa ANC. Re ra gore batho kamoka ba se ke ba gakantšhwa ke seo mekgatlo ya kganetšo e tla bego e se bolela. Re re kamoka a re bouteng, re bouteleng ANC. Le ba baswa bao ba tlogo go thoma go bouta, a ba se ke ba lebala go boutela mokgatlo wo mogolo wo. Wo ke mokgatlo wo o re ntšhitšeng kua bokgobeng - mo go bego go bouta bona ba bašweu feela. Ga se ra swanela go lebala gore motho yo moso o be a swariwa bjalo ka lekgoba; o be a sa tšewe bjalo ka selo ... [Nako e fedile.] Ke a leboga.
English:
The ANC supports the Bill.
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Mr D M GUMEDE: Hon Chairperson and hon members, good morning. Firstly, perhaps let me start by addressing an inexactitude by hon Mr Hoosen. Mr Hoosen said that there are hundreds of thousands of citizens living abroad, who would like to vote and that we need to make it easier for them to do so. As usual, they are very economical with the truth. The figures as seen on the last national and provincial elections in 2014 are only 18 564 votes that were cast abroad. Now, you talk about hundreds of thousands. It is 18 564 votes ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERON (Mr R T Frolick): Order, hon members.
Mr D M GUMEDE: ... out of a total of 18,6 million votes overall. That is very negligible of you. Let’s talk facts. This represents less than 0,01% of the voting population. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERON (Mr R T Frolick): Order, hon members.
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Mr D M GUMEDE: The DA is economical with the truth because the larger issue is the enfranchising of citizens inside the country, particularly the poor, on the basis that they don’t have addresses. Yet, they won’t fight for the poor people because they are not their concern. The ANC cannot allow the country to return to a condition where people are disenfranchised through the application of the law. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERON (Mr R T Frolick): Order, hon members.
Mr D M GUMEDE: This will not happen while the ANC is on the watch. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERON (Mr R T Frolick): Order, hon members.
Mr D M GUMEDE: Let me go back to my speech. The ANC would like to thank the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, for delivering free and fair elections time after time. It has delivered free and fair general elections after general
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elections, and indeed, ushered free and fair local government elections after local government elections every time for 25 years. This has precisely reflected the will of the people.
This is what Mandela says about the will of the people: “The will of the people is the basis of authority of government which is a principle universally acknowledged.” This will the IEC has protected unconditionally over the years. No wonder, that the IEC has been invited by different organisations in different parts of the world because of its impeccable track record.
Indeed, we are proud of men and women that have served in that institution over the last 25 years.
IsiZulu:
Asimangali ke uma sizwa ukuthi lenhlangano emele ukhetho imenywa ngapha nangapha emhlabeni wonke ukuthi izocobelelana nabo ulwazi mayelana nezinhlelo zokhetho. Sithi: halala IEC! Umsebenzi wenu uyabonakala.
English:
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This legislation serves to enhance the performance of this revered institution by keeping with changes of the time, both as a result of technology as well as experiences that we had in different elections, like bussing of voters. There have been intraparty list disputes in parties which have frequently visited the PAC and this legislation addresses that. It provides that voter education should be accredited to ensure the quality that enhances its performance.
It takes into account the reality of the advent of the ID card, and therefore it stipulates that there is no need for stamping of the ID documents during elections. We are confident that a democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous South Africa will further be entrenched, given this legislation.
Let us continue to register on an ongoing basis, every day. Let us particularly make sure that we maximise the days of 26 and 27 January which will be the last days for registration. We as the ANC says, continue to register in order to vote for the ANC. The ANC has done so much for you, starting with a credible IEC and
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IEC with integrity; let us know that we cannot afford to disappoint Mandela and mama Sisulu wherever they are.
They started this journey many years ago. Let their wishes be realised even more with this legislation. The ANC wants to assure South Africans that the integrity of the results of the next elections will even be better than whatever we have seen before. The systems have been improved; the law has been improved and we are willing to make sure that we deliver the best.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERON (Mr R T Frolick): Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr D M GUMEDE: We support this legislation. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chair, I thank the committee for speedily processing this Bill, and I also thank all the parties for supporting this important legislation. We
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congratulate the IEC for their campaign on getting addresses from voters.
In the last two and a half years, there have been increased voters with complete addresses from 34% to over 82% to date. I agree with hon Khubisa and hon Gumede that the IEC is a credible world-class organisation with a good track record of running free, fair and credible elections. We call upon all South Africans to get their IDs at our offices, collect them, register and vote in the next year’s elections.
The ANC government urges all the South African citizens that are eligible to vote to come out in their numbers now and during the registration weekend on 26 and 27 January next year, to register and to update their address details. Now is the time to make your vote your voice. Join fellow South Africans and make your voices heard. I thank you.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. That concludes the debate. Are there any objections for the Bill being read a second time?
Hon MEMBERS: No.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Frolick): There are no objections. The secretary will read the Bill a second time.
Bill read a second time.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Frolick)
SECOND ORDER
ELECTORAL LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R T Frolick): The Bill will be sent to the NCOP for concurrence. Hon members, I will now suspend the business of the House for lunch break until 2pm. The bells will be rung 10 minutes before the resumption of the business.
Business Suspended at 12:45 and Resumed at 14:00.
House Suspended at 12:48
Business suspended at 12:45 and resumed at 14:00.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Report)
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the report be adopted.
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Question put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
During division:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, can I call for a division?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): It has already been called. I am not sure how you call for a division on a matter that relates to your department.
Hon member Johnson, the House is in session. The earlier ruling still applies. Phones can be used in silent mode where you can either text or send WhatsApp messages, but you cannot take a call in the House. Can we please respect that ruling? The fact that we have minutes for the division doesn’t mean the House has been adjourned. It is still in session. Thank you.
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Order, hon members! Close the doors. [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! A division having been called ... Order!
An HON MEMBER: Hey, lock the doors!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, members! Can you please close the doors?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, on a point of order: The hon Dlamini-Zuma has come in once the doors were closed, as that member has there. [Interjections.] And ... [Inaudible.] ... and the hon Holomisa!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.] Hon Mabe, take your seat! Order, hon members! Hon members, I have asked that you be seated. I had given five minutes for the bells to be rung, and I asked that the doors be closed. Hon members, I think let’s be respectful. There are members who came after the bells had stopped ringing.
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[Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! There are two members I observed.
HON MEMBERS: Four! Four!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No. Who is the fourth one? [Interjections.] Order! Hon members, can I just ask the NA Table to assist me so that we can proceed with the process?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Dlamini-Zuma, Motsoaledi, Holomisa and Chikunga.
An HON MEMBER: Yes, Chikunga!
Mr P J MNGUNI: House Chair, on a point of order ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, no. Please take your seats. I have recognised the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, you correctly said that the doors must be locked. Now, we then take it for granted that the doors would have been locked when you so instructed. Anybody who would be outside the doors would not gain entry. You can’t penalise people who should not have gained entry who are in here because your officials outside should have ensured that nobody gains entry into this plenary. [Applause.] [Interjections.] So, perhaps it is something that you should consider with those who are tasked with stopping anybody from getting in, particularly when we have so ordered that the doors must be locked.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Can I just respond to that point of order. Please take your seat. Order, hon members! That is why I said there are two members that I observed. I did not see the others, as mentioned by other hon members. Indeed, my consultation with the NA Table was because our staff at the doors should have closed the doors after five minutes.
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Order, hon members! Order! I will allow the hon Mnguni, who was first, and will allow the hon Steenhuisen, and I will allow you.
Mr P J MNGUNI: House Chair, like the Chief Whip said, we abide by your rulings. I would like to invite you, ably supported by the Table, to really apply your mind to the fact of the DA leaving whilst the doors were closed and pushing out at that point. In as much as members may not come in, they may also not walk out at that stage, once the doors are closed. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I address you in terms of Rule 112. The Rules don’t say anything about “locking” of doors. They say that the doors are “barred”, which means the doors are closed. After the door at the back had been closed, and it was clearly closed, as per your instruction, the hon Dlamini-Zuma, the hon Holomisa, the hon Motsoaledi, and the hon Chikunga forced open the door at the back and walked in. That is not in terms of the Rules. [Interjections.] If the Rules must be applied, they must be applied to everybody equally.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. Please take your seat. I will come to you. I have recognised the member of the EFF.
Mr T RAWULA: Chair, you must apply the Rules consistently. The reality is that you have seen members come here after the bells were rung. The reality is that the Minister of Health was there holding the door to allow his members to come in. [Interjections.] The point that I am raising is that it doesn’t matter how you apply your mind, but we must be honest. We are adults here. The Minister held the door so the members could come in. The doors were long closed, but he allowed his members to come in, despite the fact that you had already finished ringing the bells. I am being honest.
Take your ruling, and be as firm as possible. Don’t be confused by the majority of the ANC. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! I will come back to you. As I said earlier, there are two members
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I observed coming in. That is why I said I want to consult with the NA Table because I might have missed other members who came in after the time had lapsed. It is those two members I was going to ask not to exercise their voting rights. [Interjections.]
Allow me the time to ask the question to the NA Table whether, apart from the two members I observed coming in, they observed any other members. Order, hon members! There are so many members raising their hands. I have seen you. Just allow me two minutes to talk to the NA Table. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, whilst they are busy, may I address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members. I have, as indicated, consulted with the Table. The two members that – alright, let me just explain. I have just asked the members here. We can either hold back this process and go and look at the cameras ... the two members I noted who came in
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after the doors were closed were the hon Dlamini-Zuma and the hon Holomisa. Indeed, the hon Motsoaledi was holding the door, according to the members. So, I may not know who came in or not. [Interjections.] No, I am just explaining what actually happened. Hon Dlamini-Zuma, you would like to address me?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: House Chair, I don’t mind if you say I mustn’t exercise my vote, but I did not open the door. I found the door open. I did not open the door. [Interjections.] I found the door open. I didn’t touch the door. So, for anyone to say that I came when the door was closed is wrong. I did not open the door. I have never opened up in here for more than
18 years. I never push the door open. When I am late, and the door is closed, I stand outside. I know the Rules of this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. Indeed, that is the point I was making, that I had asked that the doors be closed. There is also the point the hon Mthembu has raised that we need to deal with our own staff that did not close the door as they were supposed to. There is another
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statement that has been made that the hon Motsoaledi, even though he was already inside, actually held back the door. [Interjections.] Hon Motsoaledi?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, yes, I came in long ago. I was standing by the door. The hon Dlamini-Zuma is correct. She came in before the door was closed. The person for whom I held the door is the hon Holomisa. I confess that I did that but not her. She came in on time because I was standing next to the door, and I apologise for that. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Thank you very much. Hon Dlamini-Dubazana?
IsiZulu:
Nk Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo weNdlu ehloniphekileyo. Ngiphakama ngoMthetho weLungelo uma inhlangano ekuleNdlu icela ukuhlukana[division.] amalungu ayo kufuneka ashiye iNdlu engakabizi ukuhlukana. Amalungu e-DA afike abiza ukuhlukana kuthe lokho sekwenzekile kwayima besukuma bephuma
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behamba. Kuthe isiphelile le mizuzu eyisihlanu sekuphuma i-oda yokuthi mayivalwe iminyango baqhubeka baphusha umnyango bangena. Ngisukumela ... [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon members, order! Order! Hon Maseko and the hon member of the IFP, please take your seats! Hon members, clearly we do have a challenge, firstly in terms of what happened in the process. [Interjections.] With regard to ... wait! Wait, hon members.
Hon members of the IFP and NFP, hon Shaik Emam, please be in order!
Prof N M KHUBISA: I am sorry, Chair. He has done nothing.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, please take your seats! You don’t know whether he did or did not. [Interjections.] Hon members ...
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Mr P D N MALOYI: Madam Chair, may I rise on a point of order? This is important. I want to draw your attention to Rule 117 that talks about “confusion or error concerning division”. I want to read it to you, Madam Chair, and members of this House, in order for you to make a proper decision. It says the following:
If in the opinion of the presiding officer there is confusion or error concerning a division, the presiding officer may direct that another division must take place.
Because there is a serious error, because there is serious confusion, I am appealing to you to apply Rule 117. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order, hon members!
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, may I address you?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order!
Mr M WATERS: Chair!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Yes, hon member.
Mr M WATERS: May I address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Yes, you can.
Mr M WATERS: On Rule 117 and on a point of privilege. On Rule
117 - there is no confusion. We haven’t even had the division yet. First of all. Ok.
On a point of privilege, it is not the DA’s responsibility to ensure there is a quorum in the House. It is the ruling party’s responsibility, not ours. You have to make sure your members are here. And no DA member left the House once the doors were shut. No DA member and you all know that. No DA member did I was watching ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order hon members!
Mr M WATERS: ... so that’s also another lie.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Can you take a seat. Order hon members. The reason I actually made a point of ... you know at the point at which I was about to rule when the hon member raised that point of order, is precisely what we were reflecting on with the NA table staff.
Let me explain. As I said earlier, a division was called. I asked for the bells to be rung for five minutes. After five minutes I asked that the doors must be closed. Then - as I said that I saw two members coming in – and I was going to rule before any point of order was made. The issue has arising about how many people came in and also what happened on the door because hon member said “yes I came in, the door was open. So it was not closed”. Hon Motsoaledi has agreed that yes, he did open the door for hon Holomisa.
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The question is that the other two members that are being referred to as four – I did not see. And with respect ... yes, that’s why I was saying I can suspend the House. We can look at the footage. We can move to the other processes if members so wish and I know we can’t. That is why I am saying ... and therefore, the two options - is either we suspend the House for ten minutes and go and look at the footage or we actually apply Rule 117 and reopen the division.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, if I may address you? Chairperson, may I address you?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Yes, you may.
Mr M WATERS: We would like to go with the first option that you have given the House. That you suspend the House and go and look at the footage. It won’t take longer than ten minutes. And while that is happening the doors must be locked so that no other members can come into this House please. Thank you very much.
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: Chair, we would indeed go with your second option. Because, as you would know Chair, seated from this vantage point. When you had asked for the doors to be locked there were members of the DA that were pushing that door to go out. Indeed, there is confusion. I could see them seated here. So, there would be confusion. The best way of dealing with this confusion is just to reorder that the division be taken again, be redone. Thank you.
Ms N V MENTE: Thank you sisi Thoko. There is no confusion. Rule
117 will not be applying. Whoever came in knowing very well that there were not supposed to be inside must just leave the House quietly. That is the only option you have or you go with your first option. You go and view the footage and see who came in unauthorised to come in. And then you come back.
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, if you suspend the House it means all of us will leave and all of us will come in again, right. And that should not be allowed. You have made a ruling that you saw two members enter after the door should have been barred. Those
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two members should be asked respectfully to leave the House and we proceed with the division. Whatever the result of the division is and after that, one can take a decision. But you have to ensure that the division proceeds. And we can’t have options in terms of the rules. A rule is a rule. You either in or you are out. You are pregnant or you are not pregnant. So I think Chair, we would suggest that you proceed and ask the two members who you noticed, even though it is contention whether it is two or four, ask them to leave and then we proceed with the division and we take it from there. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, in accordance with the previous speaker, you earlier indicated that you might ask those members that came in afterwards not to vote. But in terms of Rule 115, “members must vote if they are in the House”. So that is not an option. That is why I will support the view that we continue now with the division. Thank you, Chair.
Ms J D KILIAN: Chairperson, it is evident that the doors were not barred and that there were procedural problems. So my
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suggestion would be that you have no other option but to restart the process to ring the bells again so that we can start the process all over. If the procedural officers are allowing members to come in afterwards, those members cannot be blamed for entering the Chamber. Therefore, our request would be, please ring the bells again and let us start the process to comply with the procedures of the House. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Chair, I would not want to delve into what happened at that door because, I sit here and I saw what happened there. Hhayi, (No) whoa, whoa! What I may have seen or not seen is subject to debate.
What is not subject to debate is that your ruling and determination is final. And from that you have made a determination that two members came in.
The HOUSE CHAIR (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order, hon members! Hon Mabe, can you allow the Chair to conduct the proceedings.
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Mr M HLENGWA: You made a determination that you observed two members. So we can give you here all our stories but, the person who must make a decision is yourself. That is the first point.
On the issue of procedural flaw and that it is the officers who let people in – let us be fair to the staff members. The hon Minister of Health has been bold and honest enough to say that he held the door open. So let us not fault the staff members.
Thirdly, it would be a dereliction of duty if you place to the House options on a ruling. That is unprecedented. It can’t be an either or. Present a ruling and then you speak to that. Because, all of us here may have observed different things.
Chair, I request you that after all these inputs and on the determination that you made – that it was two members that you first and foremost make a ruling before we give you all these stories. Thank you.
Mr S LUZIPHO: Chair, I have got no intention to contest what people are arguing in the House. It depends what is it that each
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one of us said they have seen. My understanding is simple and is that we are no longer on the issue that erupted in the meeting.
What I understand is that you have presented to the House two options that the House can consider. And if that is the case I think the only way you can assist us as the House is, how do we reach a determination on the option presented to us. And in my view then it suggest that it is almost equivalent to having two motions in the House. The House make a determination on how to arrive on the best or the majority view on the options presented to the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order hon members. I have listened to the inputs from all members and I take it that all of you made those inputs in the interest of helping to solve the challenge that arose. And I would like to make a ruling.
As indicated I would request the two members I saw not to exercise their vote and step outside so that we can vote and
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they will then come in. Hon Holomisa and hon Dlamini-Zuma. Order hon members, I have made a ruling.
On the issue of hon Motsoaledi and his admission on what happened that will be dealt with separately. It is not a matter for the voting at the moment. Order hon members.
A division having been called I would like to remind hon members that they man only vote from their allocated seats. When requested to do so members must simple indicate their vote by pressing the appropriate button. If a member inadvertently presses the wrong button the member may thereafter press the correct button. The last button pressed will be recorded as the member’s vote when the voting session is closed by the Chair.
Order hon members.
The Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party moved: That the Report be adopted.
Division demanded.
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The House divided.
AYES ~ 209: Abraham-Ntantiso, N; Abrahams; B L; Adams, R C; Adams, F; Adams, P E; Bapela, K O; Basson, J V; Bekwa, S D; Beukman,F; Bhengu, P; Bhengu, F; Bilankulu; N K; Bongo, B T; Booi, M S; Botes;A; Buthelezi, N S; Capa, N; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, B H;Cele, M A; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chueu, M P;Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, N B; Davies, R H;Didiza, A T; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini- Dubazana, Z S; Dlamini-Zuma, N C;Dlodlo, A; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dube, J J; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim,E I; Esterhuizen, J A; Faku, Z C; Filtane, M L W; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, JL; Galo, M P; Gamede, D D; Gardee, G A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gina, N;Gordhan, P J; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hanekom, D A; Hlengwa, M; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Kabini, D J; Kalako, M U; Kekana; P S;Kekana, H B; Kekana, C D; Kekana, M D; Kekana, E; Kenye, T E;Khoarai, L P; Khosa, D H; Khubisa, N M; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D;Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kubayi, M T; Kwankwa, N L S;Landers, L T; Lesoma, R M M; Luyenge, Z; Luzipo; S; Maake, J J;Mabasa, X; Mabe, B P; Mabija, L; Mabuza, D D; Madella, A F; Maesela,P;
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Mafu, N N; Magadzi, D P; Magwanishe, G; Mahlalela, A F; Mahlangu,J L; Mahlangu, D G; Mahlobo, M D; Maila, M S A; Majeke, C N;Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makondo, T; Maloyi, P D N;Maluleke, B J; Manamela, K B; Manana, M N S; Mandela, Z M D;Mantashe, P T; Maphanga, W B ; Maphatsoe, E R K; Mapisa- Nqakula, NN; Mapulane, M P; Martins, B A D; Masango, M S A; Masehela, E K M;Maseko, L M; Mashile; B L; Masondo, N A; Masuku, M B;Maswanganyi, M J; Mathale, C C; Matlala, M H; Matsimbi, C; Mavunda,R T; Maxegwana, C H M; Mbuyane, S H; Mchunu, S; Mdakane, M R;Memela, T C; Meso, L D; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, Z L; Mkongi, B M;Mmemezi, H M Z; Mmola, M P; Mmusi, S G; Mncwabe, S C; Mnganga
-Gcabashe, L A; Mnguni, P J; Mnguni, D; Mogotsi, V P; Molebatsi, M A;Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motsoaledi, P A;Mpanza, T K; Mthembu; J M; Mthembu; N; Mthethwa; E N; Mthethwa; EM; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndaba, C N; Ndabeni-Abrahams, ST; Ndlovu; B C ; Ndongeni, N; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Ngwezi, X; Nhleko, N; Nkadimeng, M F; Nkonyeni, P;Nkonzo, T M; Nkwinti, G E; Nobanda, G N; November, N T; Ntombela,M L D; Nxesi, T W; Nyambi, H V; Oliphant, M N; Oliphant, GG;Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M;
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Patel, E; Phaahla, M J; Phosa, Y N;Pikinini, I A; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Radebe, B A; Ralegoma, SM;Ramatlakane, L; Rantho, D Z; Raphuti, D D; Seabi, A M; Semenya, M R;Senokoanyane, D Z; September, C C; Shabalala, N F; Shabangu, S; ShaikEmam, A M; Shope-Sithole, S C N; Sibande, M P; Singh, N; Sithole, K P;Skosana, G J; Smith, V G; Sotyu; M M; Thabethe, E; Theko, L C; Tleane,S A; Tobias, T V; Tom, X S; Tongwane, T M A; Tseke, G K; Tseli, R M;Tsoleli, S P; Tsotetsi, D R; Tuck, A; Van Schalkwyk, S R; Williams, A J;Wolmarans, M J; Xaba, N; Xego, S T.
NOES - 79: Alberts, A; America, D; Atkinson, P G; Bagraim, M; Bara,M R; Basson, L J; Boshoff, H S; Bozzoli, B; Brauteseth, T J;Breytenbach, G; Cachalia, G K Y; Cassim, Y; Chance, R W T; De Freitas,M S F; Dreyer, A M; Esau, S; Figg, M J; Figlan, A M; Geyer, H P;Gqada, T; Groenewald, H B; Grootboom, G A; Hadebe, T Z; Hoosen; MH; Horn, W; Hugo, R; Hunsinger, C H H; Kalyan, S V; Khanyile, T A;Khawula, M S; King, C; Kohler, D; Kruger, H C C; Lees, R A; Londt, J J;Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Mackenzie, C; Malatsi, M S; Marais, E J;Marais, S J F; Masango, B S ; Matiase, N S; Matsepe, C D; Maynier, D J;Mazzone, N W A; Mbhele, Z N;
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Mcloughlin, A R; Mente, N V; Mhlongo,T W; Motau, S C; Motshidi, T K; Ngwenya, G W; Rabotapi, M W;Rawula, T; Robertson, K P; Robinson, D; Ross, D C; Ryder, D R;Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shackleton, S; Shinn, M R; Stander, T;Steenhuisen, J H; Steenkamp, J; Steyn, A; Stubbe, D J; Swart, S N;Thembekwayo, S S; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Walt, D; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, V; Walters, T C R; Waters, M; Wessels, WW; Wilson, E R; Yako, Y N,
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, I would like to address you in terms of Rule 69(f) of the Rules of the National Assembly. Given the admission of Minister Motsoaledi this afternoon, I would like that that incidence about the door is forwarded, in terms of Rule 69(f), to the Powers and Privileges committee for an investigation.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: House Chair, the hon member, hon Motsoaledi, stood up in this House and apologised for what he has done. [Interjections.]
An hon Member: He did not apologise.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY: He did apologised right here in the House. Now, what more do you want? [Interjections.] You cannot call it a gross disorderly conduct. It can’t be a gross disorderly conduct in this House. Just holding a door! But he has apologised for that. And I would request, House Chair, that you take into account that the member has indeed apologised for his misdeed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members! I will reflect on this matter and come back to the House. Can the secretary reach...
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Mr P J MNUGUNI: House Chair, with respect, may I ask. I abide by your ruling, but in terms of the aspect that was reported go back to the footage. You have not ruled on it. When that door was closed people moved out and it is also not doing any good to the course of parliamentary voting. House Chair, get back to that because it should not create a precedence either. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you hon member, a footage will be looked into.
2018 MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
(Debate)
Ms Y N PHOSA: Ho Chairperson, hon Minister of Finance in absentia, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members , distinguished guests, fellow South Africans, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to congratulate the brand new Minister of Finance for his maiden speech and tabling the 2018
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Adjustments Appropriation Bill to this august House that has been broadly consulted with sufficient public participation, an Adjustments Appropriation Bill that is propoor and is in accordance with the ANC government’s priorities.
Fellow South Africans, every year during the consideration of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, the DA shadow cabinet makes flimsy, clumsy and populist alternative proposals that are not properly consulted and have no resonance with our people, and are merely intended to be the smokescreen for our people with the hope that they will garner more support during elections.
Again this year, they have concocted a shadow adjustments appropriation, which, if considered, will only lead to job losses, loss of state business and shift from the ANC government’s road infrastructure, and the SA Airways, SAA, turnaround strategy investment in favour of a once off end of the year bonus, just once off, and not even in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF’s once off end of the year bonus which is nothing short of buying votes by the DA. These
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proposals are laughable and rejected by the ANC as they are not in the best interest of the people of this country.
Of the R5,9 trillion over the 2019 MTEF period, the ANC governing party has allocated over the three years, largest – and I mean largest- allocations for learning and culture, which is R1,2 trillion), health R724 billion; social development inclusive of social grants, R911 billion; and community development R683 billion.
Fellow South Africans, please listen to me, that is why the ANC is the party to be trusted. The ANC supports and recommends the approval of the 2018 Amendments Appropriations Bill. This we do for South Africans to ensure continued investments in social and economic services, infrastructure and social protection through the various votes that the Amendments Appropriation Bill is proposing. We also do so, definitely so do, because Ma Albertina Sisulu reminds us that, and I quote:
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We are each required to walk our own road and then stop, assess what we have learnt, and share it with others. It is only in this way that the next generation can learn from those who have walked before them. We can do no more than tell our story. Then it is up to them to make of it what they will.
What is required for the next generation has been optimally explored through the participation of stakeholders, that is constitutional, legal and nonstate, and the different line departments through the public participation process of the Standing Committee on Appropriations. The Adjustments Appropriation Bill is what government has assessed and learnt in the context of our economic growth and investment challenges, the societal demand to address poverty and inequality as well as to reprioritise public spending through the different votes.
The ANC government has learnt from the economic and social challenges facing our society, and has the national responsibility to fund the continued roll-out and improvements
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in critical areas of service delivery whilst simultaneously trying to kick-start growth in the economy aimed at reducing unemployment which is alarmingly high. We admit that it is high, but something is being done. This, our government, is doing through a four-pronged approach in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement which is, firstly, maintaining the expenditure ceiling; secondly, maintaining government’s personnel expenditure ceiling; thirdly. reprioritising spending towards the roll-out of the President's economic stimulus package especially infrastructure investment; and fourth, rebuilding state institutions.
The Adjustments Appropriation Bill provides for increases or decreases to allocations set out in the main 2018 Appropriation Act, including shifts in the anticipated economic classification of public spending. It sets adjustments to allocations.
Furthermore, the adjusted estimates of national expenditure explain national changes in detail, together with midyear performance and expenditure information. What is crystal clear in terms of our rule-bound system which is the purview of
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Parliament‘s Standing Committee on Appropriations, is that all of allocated expenditure and other adjustments are subject to the Republic's Constitution, Public Finance Management Act and its regulations; as well as section 5 of the Appropriation Act 2018. These adjustments to budgets as contained in this Bill serves both to effect necessary spending changes and to contribute to in-year oversight and management. And, as such, this Bill makes provision for 2018-19 unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure of more than R668 million with the amounts of R159,6 million for postdisaster construction and rehabilitation; R176,8 million for postdisaster rehabilitation of schools; R199,5 million for postdisaster reconstruction and rehabilitation of hospitals. This ANC government cares and it respond to the needs of the people. The amount of R100 million is for post-disaster reconstruction and rehabilitation of housing and human settlements. Indeed, we are delivering.
This is the ANC-led government's commitment to ensure infrastructure investments for our present and future generation. We support the expenditure earmarked in the 2018
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Budget for future allocation and would like to highlight the following allocations: R5665 million for drought relief allocated to the Department of Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries; R2,947 billion for the SA Post Office to defray debt and fund operational requirements through the vote of Telecommunications and Postal Services; R1,3 billion for drought relief through the function of Water and Sanitation;
R800 million towards school infrastructure backlogs grant for capital assets; and R1,226 billion for drought relief through the Vote of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.
And, to remind those who are doomsayers, that the initiative taken by the government to establish a judicial commission of inquiry into allegations of state capture, corruption – I repeat corruption - corruption and fraud in the public sector, including organs of state has been funded to uproot corruption by the ANC government.
This is further strengthened by the government's resolve, let me remind you, that is the ANC government, to make available more
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than R22,9 million for the Commission of Inquiry into Tax Administration and Governance at the SA Revenue Service. This is an illustration of the commitment of the ANC government to fight and will continue to fight any form of fraud and corruption, including protecting our institutions to deliver on their public mandate, and thereby demonstrate public value.
Hon Speaker, we are indeed concerned about the spiralling debt of state-owned companies that has accelerated significantly since 2007 largely as a result of nonfinancial state-owned companies, SOCs. Their total loan and bond debt increased from 8% of the gross domestic product, GDP, in 2007 to 15,6% in September 2017.
On Water scarcity, we are concerned that water scarcity presents a serious challenge to South Africa‘s social wellbeing, food security and economic growth. The water scarcity problem is most likely to exacerbate rapidly as demand escalates due to population growth and the rest.
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Current estimates suggest that South Africa is experiencing a water deficit of approximately between 2,7 and 3,8 billion cubic meters per annum. Addressing water challenges require bold steps from government and the affected stakeholders and the fiscal structure to prioritise water resource management.
We accept that the county’s growth trajectory must be set in balance given economic and fiscal risks and our undisputed commitment on education, health, social development and transport sectors.
With respect to health, one of the notable changes is the reprioritisation of funding amounting to R350 million, to fund critical vacancies in public health and R150 million for purchasing beds and linen. Our concern is that reprioritised funding may not be enough for the implementation of the department’s other programmes including the national health insurance and to fill critical vacancies within the public health facilities.
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Hon Speaker, as I conclude, l want to confirm through this input that as a going concern we will be vigilantly looking at compliance with legislation of supply chain management, regulatory and legislative compliance with the Public Finance Management Act, Treasury Regulation and other financial protocols. I would like to thank the the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, Public Service Commission, PSC, for their objective analysis and briefings to the committee. Also, we are thankful for the public submissions made by [Time expired.] Budget Justice Coalition, the Congress of SA Trade Unions, Cosatu, United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund, Unicef, Project Fair Play. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
The ANC supports the Bill, and remember it is only the ANC that must be trusted.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Hon Chairperson, the new Minister of Finance is again not present at a major budget debate in this Parliament. We have the distinct impression that he has been served with a
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gagging order by the governing party of the restatement calling for the closing down of the SA Airways, SAA, perhaps the Deputy Minister will confirm this in his reply. We proposed five amendments to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill to support senior citizens, improve road maintenance and improve rail transport. We specifically proposed an amendment to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill to increase the appropriation of the Department of Social Development by R1,2 billion to provide recipients of the old age grant with a R355 end-of-year top-up.
We did so following a submission to the Finance committee from a forum of women pensioners. They travelled by road all the way from Pietermaritzburg to propose an end-of-year bonus because and I quote:
With our pensions we must cover the usual expenses plus the extra expenses of school uniforms, shoes, stationery and extra food because our grandchildren are on holiday and they are always hungry.
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We proposed to fund the amendment to the Adjustments Appropriation Bill by decreasing the appropriation of the Department of Public Enterprises by R1,2 billion, which was earmarked for the bailout of the SA Express Airways. The fact is that the SA Express Airways could be shut down almost immediately, and we trust that the Minister is strongly supporting shutting down the SA Airways and will also strongly support shutting down the SA Express Airways.
However, after nearly three hours of deliberations at an appropriations committee meeting, which mysteriously did not appear on the Z-list the ANC and the EFF voted against our proposal and rejected the R355 end-of-year top-up for pensioners. Let me repeat that the ANC and the EFF voted against our proposal and rejected the R355 end-of-year top-up for pensioners. They turned a deaf ear to the pensioners who must find money for the extra expenses of school uniforms, stationery and extra food because their grandchildren are on holiday and they are always hungry. This, of course, was easy for them because most members of the governing party who serve on the
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Appropriations committee are pensioners. They retired five years ago to the Appropriations committee, but they are receiving a pension equivalent to the salary of a full-time Member of Parliament. This proves in the end that when it comes to a choice between supporting pensioners who are struggling to make ends meet and bailing out a zombie state-owned airline, the ANC chose to bailout a zombie state-owned airline.
It proves that when it comes to a choice between supporting pensioners who are struggling to make ends meet and bailing out a zombie state-owned airline, the EFF chose to bail out a zombie state-owned airline - which is a disgrace considering how pensioners are battling to make ends meet in South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon House Chair, we feel sorry for the new Minister of Finance, Mr Mboweni, who had to deliver the Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement under difficult conditions after his predecessor resigned after lying about his relationship with the Guptas. This is however not about Mr Mboweni; it is about
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the country and the dangerous trajectory it is taking. The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement demonstrated just how the ANC has run out of ideas to manage an economy that works for all. The idea of creating more jobs is to cut those jobs we are already have. The idea of expanding the economy is to invest at less than infrastructure development.
The idea of ensuring an equitable and representative economy is to sell of the stat-owned enterprises to a few capitals of industry. According to the most recent report of the global financial integrity between 2010 and 2014, South Africa lost almost $37 billion of American dollars that is about
$7,4 billion American dollars a year in potential government revenue due to elicit financial flows. In the statement by the Minister, there was no mention of how the state is planning to deal with the phenomenon of elicit financial flows, tax-based erosion and avoidance by in the main multinational companies.
Failure to address all tax gaps in the absence of solid nontax revenue indicates that it is workers who will continue to carry
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major of the tax burden. This is all in the while multinational companies enjoy the benefits of all tax rates and aggressively avoiding tax and shifting profits. It is for this reason that you have now resorted to the narrow undesirable steps of even increasing the value-added tax, VAT, to 15% with potential disastrous impact on the poor. The same reasoning applies to national government obsession with e-tolls in Gauteng. This was a bad policy decision. It is bad, and then as it is bad now and the insistence by the Minister of Finance that these remain government policy shows that we are led by deaf leaders who have no capacity whatsoever to listen and reflect upon the consequences of their decision.
Mr Mboweni also did not provide any tangible plan or programme on how to deal with the debt of the gross domestic product, GDP, ratio which is currently standing at over 60%. We found such a plan and we may find ourselves as a country reaching 100% debt to GDP ratio which will be a crisis. Lastly, we must warn Mr Mboweni to desist from even thinking about the massive retrenchment he seems to be salivating in the public service.
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The EFF rejects any intention to retrench public servants as this would worsen already existing crisis of high unemployment levels.
Furthermore, the EFF is adamant that this Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement is no different from the rest that have been presented in the past. We demand irresponsive people-centred budget which adequately addresses and responding to the needs of poor as oppose to serving the rich and the political surrogates represented here by the DA and the ANC. In physics we are taught that for every action there is a reaction. This law applies also in social science and in class relations whose reaction to exportation is class struggle and revolution. If the people in socioeconomic condition worsen as it is the case now, we call on our people to protest, stand up against the ANC and the DA; reject these parties in the next year national elections, and for that we reject this budget statement. Thank you so much. [Time expired.]
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Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, a prevailing narrative in this House by the ANC is how it seeks to self-praise itself for the Commission of Inquiry. The Commission of Inquiry is not borne by the ANC. It was borne by the Public Protector. In fact, what the ANC did give birth to was the state capture. In this House you aided, abated and supported the architecting chief of state capture. Therefore, you cannot come here in good faith and tell us that, no, the State Capture Commission yada, yada, yada. No, every time a motion of no confidence was brought against the architecting chief of state capture, you stood on the side of that person.
You are only thereby obligation and not by choice. You have now seen it as an opportunity to try and redeem yourself in the public whereas if it was convenient you are the ones who are looting. So, let’s not come here and play games and pretend as though that you’ve done this out of choice, it is because the Public Protector made the findings and the determination and you are compelled and bound by it to comply.
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Earlier on the hon Tobias decided to come here and want to go on a bashing of the former KwaZulu government as if it had actually not worked. Well, let me tell you that that government built
6 000 schools. That government built clinics. That government gave us the University of Zululand which produced not less than two Chief Justices: Mogoeng Mogoeng and Sandile Ngcobo. That government built colleges of education which you have came into government as the ANC you shut down. That Zulu government was the one which brought investment from Taiwan to create jobs. That Zulu government is the only government which in 1994 sent money back... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you speak on the microphone?
Mr M HLENGWA: ... to the national government so that the money could go into the national purse. Therefore, you come here and denigrate it, but we know that under difficult conditions it were for black people with the shoestring budget. You have a lot of money, what have you done with it? You have stolen it. You
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have been corrupt. You have taken this country to the gutters. So, you come here denigrated knowing that it actually worked.
On top of that this ANC government that you are talking about gave us a VAT increase which is oppressing the majority of our people. This ANC government that you are talking about gave us the e-tolls which oppressing our people. This ANC government that you are talking about protected state capture. This ANC government that you are talking about is the one that is actually has collapsed this country. Therefore, you come here and try and denigrate us. However, your conscious knows that when we do analysis of what happened post-1994, history will judge all of you this side of the House that sat by and stood by and watch Jacob Zuma wrecked this country, whilst he was in the pocket of the Guptas and to make up for that you have come with unfair and unsustainable interventions for finance to try and solve problems that you created. The problem ... was never Jacob Zuma, but it was you who aided and abated Jacob Zuma. [Time expired.]
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, the National Freedom Party welcomes the report of the Standing Committee on Appropriations. [Interjections.] What is very clear is that this House is not the House to find solutions, to address the challenges of the people in this country. However, I am sure that the people in the gallery and people all over South Africa in their millions are watching exactly how hon members behave in this House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order, hon members!
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: So, we must understand that we are equally responsible for what everybody says about everybody else.
Corruption exists all over. Failure to deliver exists all over. All parties, all across South Africa are all doing the same thing. All have weaknesses but all also have strengths.
We cannot forget the fact that a lot of successes have taken place and changed the lives of people in South Africa, since
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2014. Let us be honest about that, but equally, let us admit that there are a lot of challenges.
I think a lot of you could see that there is a lot of talent in this place. There is talent from all sides. Unfortunately, we are not using it to the best of our ability to address the needs of the people in the country. Do you know why? It is about power, control, resources.
You will hear somebody come here and say that somebody is corrupt. Their party is also corrupt. They are also looting and stealing. The easiest thing to do is to come here because this platform gives you that opportunity to do that. Do we ever sit down and ask ourselves why we are here? Are we not here to create a better life and address the inequality of the past. We are not interested in that. Clearly, we are not.
Let me come to the issue of the SAA and SA Express. Yes, indeed, SAA has serious challenges, but let us also be mindful of the fact that the mechanism that has been put in place currently to
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identify and deal with them is gaining momentum. I think there has been a briefing and there has been success already.
Let us admit that nobody is talking about the previous Mr Coleman who took the entire fleet and sold it away, and now you have to lease the same plane. Why don’t we call for a thorough investigation into that as well?
Why don’t we call an investigation into the audit report of exactly what happened in Limpopo Province since 2012? It is a serious problem. That is why we are here. We are not willing to deal with those issues because we want to grandstand and that is the easiest thing to do.
The bailout to SAA Express is very clear. They have also made their presentation to the portfolio committee and to the standing committee and there is a lot of progress. This is government’s baby. This is ours. What do we do if it is your own business? You close it, shut, and lose your money. [Time
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expired.] Let us put mechanisms in place to solve the problem and make a success of it. The NFP supports the report.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Shaik Emam, the African National Congress appointed all of those people, so they should take responsibility for what happened there. I think we should start from there. [Interjections.]
I agree with hon Hlengwa that it is actually the African National Congress that is on trial in this state capture thing. I have not seen any member of the opposition party being called to account for stealing state resources or channelling state resources to families that are associated with the African National Congress. [Applause.]
What does that tell you? It means that South Africans can entrust us with governing this country in 2019. I want to quote it this time. You can accuse me of intellectual indolence, but I want to quote from your own document. It says:
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Government’s guarantee portfolio totals R670 billion of which the largest facility has been granted to Eskom.
We all know that.
By the end of June 2018, R334 billion of those government guarantee facilities have already been used. In 2016-17, the latest year for which figures are available, the combined liabilities of national public entities and state- owned companies totalled R1,6 trillion. The interest- bearing debt of the 10 state-owned entities that borrow most has grown from R266 billion in 2009-10 to R702 billion in 2016.
Your own document says that there has been an increase of 163% in seven years. You must tell me if that is not reckless. You must tell me if that is not poor governance on your part.
I want to say, for example, if you read the African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance, in fact, Chapter 9 of that
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Political, Economic and Social Governance - deals with the issue of how you manage public finances. It places a responsibility on members states in the African continent to be transparent about these issues, but also to be responsible in how these states manage finances, because they understand the interconnectedness of the different economies in Africa.
What am I saying with this very long preamble? We have a responsibility not only to check our finances, but to check the finances of African governance because look at what is happening in Africa. There is about $123 billion of public funds that have been extended by the Chinese government to African governments, but that is not documented anywhere, over and above, the private debt that they get from IMF and so on.
So, it means this entire continent, including South Africa, if we are not careful, is about to get into a debt crisis because of poor management of public finances, which the leaders of the African continent do not want to consider. [Time expired.]
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IsiXhosa:
Owu madoda ixesha lam seliphelile? Liyakhawuleza xa kuhleli mna kodwa. [Uwelewele.]
Mr W W WESSELS: House Chairperson, the hon Phosa says and concludes her speech by saying that the ANC can be trusted. I wonder if that is true. She talks about a big challenge that South Africa is facing in terms of our water scarcity. How can the ANC be trusted, if it is the ANC government that allows billions of litres of water to be lost annually because of poor maintenance, mismanagement and completely wrong priorities?
Let me take the Eastern Cape, for example. In the Eastern Cape, in the last financial year, there have been water losses of
113 billion litres. That is not a government that is responsible or a government that can be trusted.
We cannot talk about appropriating funds to departments, whilst our departments are bottomless pits. Our irregular expenditure
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has increased fivefold in the last financial year – a bottomless pit.
Our fruitless and wasteful expenditure increased by 200%. That is not an achievement; that means that our public management of our funds is bad. We do not have consequence management, in terms of how our funds are managed.
Afrikaans:
Die agb Shaik Emam praat van die ANC wat nie die enigste party is wat steel nie. Dit mag dalk waar wees, maar die ANC steel nie miljoene nie; die ANC steel miljarde. Daar is nie net ’n
R100 000 hier of ’n miljoen daar wat wegraak nie, dit is miljarde wat gesteel is. Miljarde wat kon gebruik gewees het om die ongelykhede en armoede waarvan hierdie lede praat, aan te spreek.
As u minder gesteel het, sou die armoede in hierdie land alreeds aangespreek gewees het; sou infrastruktuur opgehef kon word; sou
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daar beter meganismes kon wees om werklik die land se krisis en probleme aan te spreek.
Maar, nee, u beskerm net u eie magsposisie. U gebruik alles wat u sê om u posisie te beskerm en nie om werklik die probleem aan te spreek nie. U is nie ernstig oor bestuur nie. U is nie ernstig oor finansiële bestuur nie.
English:
The inequality in this country could have been addressed if there was an actual focus on infrastructure development, creating wealth and building the economy, and not just redistributing wealth.
This Appropriation Bill is insufficient to actually address the crisis that you are facing. I thank you.
Ms D CARTER: Chairperson, for the last month this house has considered a plethora of Budgetary Review Recommendation Reports. In doing so, we have studied the Strategic Plans,
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Annual Reports, Audit Findings and Performance Outcomes of our national departments.
In most instances, they make for a sad and disturbing story, sad and disturbing reading and I want to say not a good story to tell at all. They tell a tale of unmet performance targets; acts of malfeasance and corruption with no consequences; and of irregular, unauthorised, wasteful and fruitless expenditure.
An academic at UCT, estimates that over 98% of irregular expenditure is not meaningfully followed up. The Auditor General, AG, has recently reported that fruitless and wasteful expenditure increased by a whopping 200% over the last year.
Where are the consequences?
By all accounts, it is the same departments that keep on offending, such as those departments dealing with water, health, and education, let alone our provincial and local governments.
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We note the view of the AG that urgent intervention is required in our provincial departments of health, education and public works, which are largely responsible for bulk public infrastructure provision.
We are concerned at the growing tendency among civil servants, to dispute audit findings without any basis and instances of gross intimidation against the staff of the AG.
I raise these issues to question the efficacy of our spend, In the hope that the funds proposed to be allocated in the Adjustments Appropriation Bill will be used in the best interests of our society and will not be misappropriated, wasted and looted like we see in over a couple of years.
We also support the additional appropriation to the Office of the Chief Justice as part of the programme to strengthen the independence of the judiciary and its government.
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We welcome the allocation to provide water, to improve infrastructure and offset the economic cost of a drought. The allocation funding for the second phase of Cape Town’s My Citi bus programme; and the provision made to address the dire shortage of medical professionals.
The government’s spend is said to be aimed at reducing poverty and inequality and at this point I want to state that it is disturbing that a request by pensioners that travel from KwaZulu-Natal for an additional R355 end of year bonus was rejected. If you cared you would have not rejected it.
The President has signed off on the minimum wage and I put it to this House that if you want a good story to tell, then double the pensioner’s money. Even in the minimum wage, you can at least double them, because today they need to survive on half of it.
What you spend on a dinner or what you eat at lunch ... [Inaudible.] [Time Expired.]
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Mr S N SWART: House Chairperson, one of the largest adjustments relates to the proposed recapitalisation of the South African Express airline. The staggering amount of R1,240 billion is to be give to SA Express airline, obviously subject to certain conditions, but this can’t be supported. It is an absolute disgrace.
We will be considering a further bailout to SAA in the special adjustment appropriation, thus a total of R6,249 billion to state airlines. At the very least though by 31 December 2018, the Department Public Enterprises must present a plan to Cabinet for state-owned airlines which should include options for strategic partnerships and the disposal of non co-assets.
It is clear, the SA Express must be shut down and it is so straight forward without any further delay to avoid wasting taxpayer’s money. We share the view that this allocation could have been far better spent elsewhere such as alleviating the plight of pensioners referred to by other speakers.
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In general, on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, we see that revenue is said to reduce over the medium term by R27 billion this financial year, R24 billion 2019-20, and
R33 billion in 2021 and that is a direct results of state capture of SA Revenue Service that is being elevated and discussed in this House, but we believe as the ACDP that far more revenue must be secured by strengthening SA Revenue Service and we welcome the interim report of the Nugent Commission. We also need drastic reduction of wasteful expenditure and more effectively address the illicit economy and corruption.
The tobacco industry that is illicitly and billions of rand that should come to SA Revenue Service, is it not coming to SA Revenue Service. More revenue, we believe is also flowing from investment and economic growth and job creation. We welcome the steps that have been taken in the mean time to rectify what has been happening at SA Revenue Service by Acting Commissioner, Mr Kingon.
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He must be appointed. Appoint him as the permanent commissioner. Let’s also his steps to re-establish the large business unit but much need to be welcomed but much more needs to be done.
We have said it. Many speakers have said it that political responsibility must be accepted for the situation I mentioned is facing. We do acknowledge like this morning with the Eskom inquiry when we finalised that there are members across all political parties including the ANC that have fought state corruption, but far more needs to have be done and far more could have been done to avoid the looting and plundering that did take place. I thank you.
Mr A R MCLOUGHLIN: Hon House Chairperson, during his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the Minister of Finance announced some changes to the Fiscal Framework. These necessitated I adjustments to the monies appropriated to government departments in terms of the Appropriations Act 33 of 2014. We hope that they were also based on a view to the future posited on a desire to
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ensure that future budgetary requirements could be foreseen and planned for in advance.
The Honourable Minister, occupies an invidious position. He took on a task that a motley crew of sad predecessors have been unable to complete, namely getting South Africa’s floundering economy back on track.
From the outset, the Minister may have recognised that he was approaching the crossroads, but to the detriment of every South African, having reached the crossroads, he veered neither to the right nor the left, but charged recklessly onwards on the same errant path that his predecessors had followed. He may have reshuffled the deck,
He dealt the Nation a worse hand than it had held before. For any nation to succeed it needs to channel all fields of endeavour towards a common goal, that of providing goods, services and intellectual assets that are enviously sought after by its competitors and jealously guarded by its citizens.
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The DA believes in a free market economy that creates the opportunity for every South African to compete in a fair environment and pursue his or her own ambitions. We perceive the facilitation of the achievement of those ambitions to be one of our core functions. Not limited to certain select individuals based on certain arbitrary criteria but openly and fairly accessible to all South Africans.
The ANC, having been one of the most successful liberation movements in world history, has degenerated into a mass of corruption, complicity, denial, factionalism and debauchery, reminiscent of the last days of the Roman Empire.
It has failed its people, it has failed the country and, indeed, it has failed itself. A few examples of why I say this are to be found in the Adjustments Appropriation Bill before this House today.
Firstly, one can probably understand a government wishing to preserve its national carrier. It is a proud heritage symbol,
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but, after allocating a further R5 billion to South African Airways, SAA, why are we appropriating an additional
R1,249 billion to a second airline when National Treasury itself confirms that SA Express is technically insolvent, as previous speakers has said that this airline needs to go and fast.
Secondly, an appropriation of R409 million is included to pay for the Commissions of Enquiry into State Capture and Tax Administration and Governance. This is also has been raised before, but please do not misunderstand me. These commissions are very necessary, but they have been made necessary by the failure of the ANC to discipline its cadres, oversee their activities and take remedial action against perpetrators.
Thirdly, it is an appropriation of R800 million to basic education to pay for school infrastructure backlogs. South Africa spends a huge percentage of its annual Budget on basic education and yet we produce the worst results of almost any nation on earth! This is another massive failure by the ANC.
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In all of the above instances, Mr & Mrs everyday South African, law-abiding, hard-working and tax paying citizens, who have done nothing wrong, are being punished by having to pay for the ANC failures.
The ANC recently celebrated its 106 anniversary. It is obviously old and decrepit. Indeed, it is on life support. It is time the nation put it out of its misery and irreversibly pulled the plug! it’s time for the DA government in South Africa.
Ms S C N SHOPE-SITHOLE: Hon Speaker in absentia, hon House Chairperson and hon Ministers ...
Xitsonga:
... avuxeni.
English:
Today I have come to support this report of the Portfolio Committee on Appropriation. That is what I have come to do.
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[Interjections.] You must go to school, don’t talk to me like that.
I am going to discuss my speech in three sections. Firstly, I want to inform my people at home that government has put aside R484 billion for social and economic infrastructure and it is the responsibility of this House, every Member of Parliament, to look after this R484 million.
The Constitution of the Republic ... [Interjections.] Can you protect me, I can’t even hear myself. Steenhuisen! This illiterate is talking all the time!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, please. Hon members, can we please maintain the decorum of this House?
Ms S C N SHOPE-SITHOLE: Hon Chair, I need to speak but I can’t be speaking with Steenhuisen doing this. No! I need your protection Chair.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please continue. Hon van der Merwe, please don’t shout. Continue.
Ms S C N SHOPE-SITHOLE: I am going to talk about the two elephants in the House. The first elephant is ourselves ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, please!
Ms S C N SHOPE-SITHOLE: ... is ourselves as members of this House. The Constitution puts the responsibility of looking after the monies of the state on us but instead we make bioscope in the House – we are making noise like hon Steenhuisen. We are not doing what the Constitution says we must do. We have to do exactly that if we are serious about protecting the economy of our country.
The second elephant is Treasury. I know that the integrated financial management system is a thorn in Treasury’s flesh but I think Treasury must rise up to the occasion, forget the past and
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try to put that system together. If we have it right, we will be able to control financial movement in the whole country.
As we speak the systems of the different spheres are not talking to each other and there is no magic in planet earth that Treasury can use to follow money in every sphere of government if systems are not talking to each other.
Deputy Minister, we have talked about south relations so many times in ANC conferences. We have India and they are very advanced in Information Technology, IT. Why don’t we ask them to help us if we are failing to do it ourselves because we need the integrated financial management system up and running? We need to focus on that one.
I plead with you Deputy Minister to follow that up so that Treasury can be able to monitor the movement of money in the country. Otherwise we can talk or shout at each other but we will never be able to monitor the movement of money in the country.
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Hon Deputy Minister, I usually hear your department talking about cost containment. John Maynard Keynes said, “The boom, not the slump, is the right time for austerity at the Treasury.” That is what Keynes said.
If we are having a problem with the growth of the economy and we do not spend or we under spend on infrastructure, private sector will not come to the party; they will put their money aside. So, Treasury must spend and we must not have situations where there is under spending, especially in infrastructure.
I want to talk about instructions I got from Mama Adelaide Tambo in 1994, in Dakar Senegal in the preparation for the Beijing Platform and Action. She said: Whatever we are discussing here we must always remember that poverty resides in women, especially rural women and children, and if we are serious about eradicating poverty from our countries we must deal with poverty in women because if mothers are poor, children will be poor, under nourished and underdeveloped.
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I want you, hon Deputy Minister, to make sure that the set asides that are given to women are spent. We should not have a situation where there is under spending in the set asides allocated to women.
The department of Agriculture should look at assisting rural women because they would like to ensure that there is food security in rural areas especially now that food is becoming expensive. [Interjections.]
The elephants are finished and I have an announcement to make to the House. This is the announcement: The 2019 elections will mark the end of the Gupta-funded DA rule in the Western Cape. [Interjections.] Forget about the Western Cape. You will not get the Western Cape because the Guptas will not fund you anymore.
You got funding from the Guptas. You won because you got funding from the Guptas and I expect you to go to the Zondo Commission and tell us how many times you visited the Gupta’s place before you got the funding. The only person that is left here is your
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leader, Maimane. He must go tell South Africa how many times he visited the Guptas before he got the money that helped him win the 2019 elections. Thank you.
Mr M SHACKLETON: House Chair, the comments of the immediately preceding speaker are deeply ironic considering that she herself supported Zuma at Nasrec.
The government is out of touch with the plight of ordinary South Africans. We have become immune as a nation to figures that are thrown around when it comes to corruption, wasteful expenditure and grand theft.
The figures R800 million, R2 billion, R100 billion all start to sound the same. Every cent is a new opportunity to deliver to the people of South Africa. If we are not improving the lives of others, then why are we here? Total state-owned enterprises, SOEs, loan and bond debt increased from 8% of gross domestic product, GDP, in 2007 to 15,6% 2017.
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The SOE sector has driven the expansion of contingent liabilities in the budget. A report of the Financial and Fiscal Commission states that the expenditure ceiling is likely to be breached by R2,9 billion due to bailouts to state-owned entities. If this should happen, South Africa’s credit rating will likely be downgraded further, which will give us a weaker currency and higher debt-service costs. It will cause life to become more expensive for all South Africans, from all walks of life. Year on year we are faced with a new plan by SOEs telling us that this year will be the year and that this year’s particular bailout will be the cure-all.
Government contractors face a crisis of not being paid. In the Eastern Cape, recently, 27 contractors downed tools due to government debt to them to the tune of R104 million. The issue of invoices not being paid within 30 days affects numerous government departments. The allocation of spending is truly out the window.
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Whilst government may sit on an SA Express plane looking out through the window of luxury, over 30 million South Africans are living in poverty and many who try to make an honest living find their invoices unpaid by government.
The R820 million cut to the Health Facility Revitalisation Grant in the February 2018 budget has had a disastrous effect on provincial plans for hospital maintenance and development. How can one expect a doctor who has been working for 15 hours a day
— without overtime pay — to provide consistent performance to patients? Until this is addressed, we will continue to pay billions in medico—legal claims every year.
The DA remains concerned that the Child Support Grant of R410 remains below the value of the food poverty line of R547 per person per month. We need to care for our people. We cannot support the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
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Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: Hon House Chair, members of the executive, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the tabling of an Adjustment Appropriations Bill is quite a familiar process to all of us and we should apply our minds to determine what needs to be done ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you assist with the microphone, please?
Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: Okay! Am I fine now? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Okay!
Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: ... with regard to the allocation of funds to address the needs of the people we are meant to serve. It is an opportunity to scrutinize the Budget, bearing in mind that an annual Budget was already tabled.
As we go about with our business, and concern ourselves with the economic challenges, we also have this permanent group which
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never has anything to contribute to the work at hand. I am yet to see or hear the DA saying something constructive when we deal with such important issues which affect our country and the citizens’ livelihoods. They are turning themselves into an enemy instead of being part of the collective.
Anyway, they are very good in exposing themselves to the world; no one actually knows what their position is besides criticising the ANC and government. We have a situation whereby they always want to manipulate the whole committee to accept their ill- informed amendments which they themselves struggle to motivate.
Now, I just want to move away from my speech and speak to some of the issues that have been raised. We have listened to particularly the DA, the SA Airways and SA Express story – a story that they have made a permanent issue but they don’t get it that it will never ever succeed.
We have got two members of the DA that sit on the Appropriations Committee but there is this belief that Mr Maynier and Mr Lees –
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Mr Lees being the release for this year, and he is not going to succeed – think that other people cannot think.
You come and you want to impose this issue. This SA Airways issue you started two years ago and you continue with it. You think that we will reach a stage ... [Interjections.] You think that there will be a time when you will ... [Interjections.] They must keep quiet! [Interjections.]
You think that you will succeed to get the SA Airways to be sold to your people, because I know you have got a target and you are come now to the SA Express. You are repeating it. That is all we are debating about because now these are desperate times for you. That is going to remain just that: Desperate times!
As things stand, you do not use the SA Airways aircraft but you use the British Airways, which is where your loyalty is at. So, you must stay with your British Airways but you will never ever get the SA Express and the SA Airways to be scrapped or sold.
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Now, the latest – if I may share with the House – is that they are telling us they want to amend the Appropriations Bill.
They are also telling us about the old-age pension, something that they have never known before or during their apartheid time. They are telling us about nine gogos [elderly women] from Pietermaritzburg and they want to use that as a sample of what old people have to go through. They want to give a once-off bonus in December. Honestly, I do not know how your minds work!
I really don’t know what is with other people - some of the people that are talking about issues. Hon Hlengwa, you went on- and-on about corruption and so forth. Today you actually surprised me a bit; you were like possessed. [Laughter.] You went on-and-on! I thought – and you must be careful! [Interjections.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Senokoanyane!
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Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: No, I am saying you were talking like a person ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Senokoanyane, please take your seat! [Interjections.] Order! Wait! Hon members, please, I can’t hear!
Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, Rule 92(1). I think you ...
IsiZulu:
... nawe nje unguwe, lento uyayizwa nje.
English:
Possessed!
IsiZulu:
Yinhlamba phela leyo, yinhlamba Sihlalo.
English:
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She must withdraw. I don’t mind the spirit of debate. Possessed
- never!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much. I will seek advice. I am not about the ruling of the word, “Possessed”. I will seek advice. Continue, m’am; I will rule before I leave this seat. [Interjections.] Hon members, please! Wait, Ms Dorris – wait a bit! Hon members, please!
Ms T V TOBIAS: Hon Chairperson, as you make a ruling, will you explain what possession is? Is he possessed by money or by ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member, just leave it. It is not ... [Interjections.] Hon members, I think we are now just deteriorating with this noise and I can’t even hear the speakers on the podium. Let us respect the decorum of this House. This is a very important debate. Please, I am begging you now! Thank you. Continue, hon member.
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Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: I was actually worried about you, hon Hlengwa, that you were about to get a heart attack. I also would like to find out from you and the IFP if you know a member of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature by the name of Hassan Motala, whom I understand has been convicted of fraud? [Interjections.]
Mnu M HLENGWA: Samxosha lowo!
Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: And, he has actually been put on economic rehabilitation. It is the first time I heard about that. [Interjections.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson! I rise on Rule 92.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Take your seat, hon member!
Mr N SINGH: Is your hon member on the podium allowed to ask us questions. She is now asking a question of the IFP. Do I have the right of response?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member! [Interjections.]
Mr N SINGH: Why is she asking a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member Singh, please take your seat. Continue hon member, Senokoanyane.
Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: I just wanted to know if you know the guy – the hon member of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature? And do you know anything about the Zululand Municipality, where the staff are not paid their salaries? But, I will not ask for answers.
Mr X NGWEZI: Order, hon House Chairperson! May I please rise on a point of privilege? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ngwezi. Yes! Hon member, please! What’s your point of order, hon Ngwezi?
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Mr X NGWEZI: Hon House Chairperson, I think the member is misleading the House because it was just the 25th of the month. [Interjections.] If workers were not paid at Zululand District Municipality, you would have known by the 25th. [Interjections.] It is the 27th today; workers have been paid. She mustn’t mislead the House! [Interjections.] She mustn’t mislead the House!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, you cannot debate - Hon Ngwezi, you cannot debate with a member who is on the podium. [Interjections.] Hon members there, you can talk but she can’t even hear me. Please! Continue, hon member!
Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: Chair, I was actually asking questions; I wasn’t saying I know about these things. Otherwise, I would like to just raise the issue of corruption. It has been raised so many times, that is why I am also asking questions. Some of you speak as if this corruption issue was raised by yourselves.
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I know, hon Hlengwa you said that the ANC-led government is only handling it because of the Public Protector. However, the state capture is not the only form of corruption and I think the ANC is very clear about fighting corruption.
I want to tell you that some of you keep on playing to the gallery here, thinking that the people out there – the community
will actually support you because of that. You are doing yourselves a disfavour because people are not stupid; people can see through you.
If this is how you think you are going to win elections next year, by being actors and actresses, about things that you don’t even know, I really do feel very sorry for you. I feel sorry for you. I can tell you here and now that some of you are not going to be even represented in this Parliament next year. You must just know that you are not going to be represented.
I will then go to say that as we talk about the Appropriations Bill, the President did announce what we call the economic
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stimulus and recovery plan, which focuses on economic growth – something that some of you are not interested in. There have been so many initiatives that have been put in place.
For instance, in March this year, the Youth Employment Service was launched – an initiative that is led by business sector. It is aimed at enabling young people to access job opportunities. We all know that young people are struggling to get employment. Not just because you are not educated but because experience has always been a barrier. This initiative is assisting them to be able to access employment. The future will then look very bright for young people once it ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order, hon members! Hon members, I can here you laugh there at the corner, please!
Ms D Z SENOKOANYANE: I just want to add before my time is over, that we also have seen a lot of shift in the Budget, whereby in some allocations, unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure has been made. Reprioritisation of public spending becomes very key
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if we must stimulate economic growth and create jobs. We already have the National Development Plan, which is a long-term vision to promote inclusive economic growth and reduce unemployment, poverty and inequality.
The state of our economy demands that we must put in place various reforms in order to reverse some of the challenges the country faces. It is time to allow small businesses to play an active role, by supporting their initiatives, as part of inclusive economic growth and job creation.
We have policies but this sector faces many challenges as they attempt to establish themselves in the economy due to financial constraints. Although we must commend government for initiatives such as the Small Business and Innovation Fund, we are also very lucky to have CEOs who saw it fit to establish the CEO Initiatives Fund, which has made a commitment to invest in the SMME sector.
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This is South Africa for you; not people who work against what South Africa wants. The recent Job Summit has also been a real eye opener for those of us who have interest in this country. We saw that display of collective strength and commitment towards the needs of the people as society looks up to us. As we emphasise job creation, we need to look at creating descent work and sustainable livelihoods in line with the NDP vision in order to improve people’s living standards and ensure a dignified existence for all South Africans.
In terms of the NDP, unemployment reduction should be at 6% by 2030, but we are obviously not doing very well just yet. There is nothing wrong anyway with being positive. This is government policy which all of you are expected to implement but you do not seem to get it.
Now listen: It is the ANC that is governing the country; not you. It is not surprising because for some of you this is just a platform or playground for making noise about things that you
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have no clue on. As long as it is against the ANC, it is fine for you.
One of the highlights of the adjustments is ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
An HON MEMBER: Where’s the Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: I just want to express my gratitude to all the members of this House who have engaged on this debate. It was lively and exciting, but I think the challenge we are faced with is the mirage ... a political mirage. If I were to make my little definition of a political mirage, but using the scientific word, it’s that a mirage is an optical illusion which creates a vision of seeming water on the road at a distance, being a reflection of light which is heated through air which is heated by the road.
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Now, the challenge we are facing here is that that mirage seeks to create confusion around the following. It is the ANC government that has expressed its appreciation of the mishaps along the road under our leadership. It is no other party. Our documents acknowledge the fiscal situation ... its sustainability. That’s why you are able to quote them. They do not come from you. They come from the documents crafted by us. We have accepted that. Yet, now you want to create a political mirage so that this noise must come ... as if it’s originating from you. Yet, it has been accepted by us.
However, the dangers of this mirage again seek to hide the following. When we look ahead, there must be this noise so that our people do not know when changes happen, where they come from. That we are looking ahead and saying that government needs to take some difficult decisions to get the economy onto a higher growth path and encourage job creation. That’s what we are saying.
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We are saying a crucial component of this package is the intention to partner with the private sector to increase investment in public infrastructure. In addition, government must make progress in strengthening governance. This partnership has already found expression during the job summit and the investment summit. However, the mirage wants to hide that this summit took place and that it had results because when the changes come from these initiatives, the mirage would have created an impression that they come from the noise that we are hearing here.
Some progress has been made in implementing the President’s recovery plan in terms of removing blockages to growth. Draft policy direction for licensing high demand spectrum has been issued. Work is underway on restructuring options for the electricity sector. The Mining Charter has been approved by the Cabinet. Visa regulations are actually being wrapped up.
The second element of the plan relates to the reprioritisation of public spending to support growth and job creation. The
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Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, includes the reprioritisation of about 32 billion over the next three years, of which 15,9 billion goes towards faster spending infrastructure programmes, clothing and textile incentives, and the Expanded Public Works Programme. A total of 16,5 billion is allocated to various programmes and entities, including funding for the SA Revenue Service, Sars. Again, these are the things this government is doing, and the political mirage seeks to hide this so that it should be coming from that side. [Interjections.]
Changes to grant structures amounting to 14,7 billion will promote the upgrading of informal settlements in partnership with communities. Housing subsidies amounting to one billion will be centralised to better support middle and low income buyers. In the current year, 1,7 billion is added to infrastructure spending and 3,4 billion is allocated to drought relief, mostly for water infrastructure. This mirage wants to hide this work.
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As for the third element of the plan, the introduction of ... infrastructure fund, government is working with the development finance institutions and private-sector partners on an infrastructure project to deal with the issue of project preparation, project capacity and so on.
What else is this mirage trying to hide? Having listened to hon Maynier, he says they propose an increment here; an addition, so that textbooks can be bought for schools and all that. Again, what is this mirage trying to hide? It’s trying to hide the following. That ... free education ... to more than 80% of our schools, benefitting over nine million children. That statement is a mirage that seeks to hide this thing. About nine million receive free nutritious meals every school day. Your statement is a mirage that seeks to hide this to create seeming water.
Two thirds of deserving learners are transported to school. This mirage statement that you made seeks to hide this. Over 200 state of the art schools have been delivered and many are
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coming. Your mirage ... seemingly concerned about pensioners, seeks to hide this.
But what else does your mirage hide? It hides the following. Here where you are governing ... Siqalo, Marikana and Khayelitsha have no access roads. Yet Bishopscourt and all the uptown ... have all these issues.
In Khayelitsha, a policeman died under what was supposed to be a light, which has not been serviced for eight years. And it’s under you! However, there are no lights that are not functioning in the suburbs there. That is under your leadership. [Interjections.]
This mirage seeks to hide this. People are queuing here for toileting in Khayelitsha and Marikana, and there are no roads and no lights, and your noise seeks to actually hide this because it’s a political mirage that wants to create an impression that the ANC is confused, lost and that we don’t know what we are trying to do. [Interjections.] No, it’s a mirage!
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Now, let’s take this mirage further. I want to accept the concern, for instance, around the tobacco issue, hon Swart. However, to assure you, as government we are putting in billions to revamp the Sars situation which was messed up by people who, in my view ... I don’t know how sanity actually deserted them.
There are serious interventions in reviving the large business concentration, putting together enforcement units to actually quickly be able to get on top of this illicit ... [Inaudible.]
... because I agree with you. This is a serious matter.
Those things that we are doing are meant to ensure that our people do see a difference. I repeat; it’s us who have accepted our weaknesses in concrete terms and it’s us who have put programmes ... to deal with those weaknesses.
However, this mirage wants to create an impression that it’s you who have told us about these issues. The fact of the matter is that you know it’s not true. Go and ... [Inaudible.] ... Siqalo, sort out the light of eight years there in Khayelitsha so that no further police die under the lights. [Interjections.]
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Now, having said all that, member Maynier, when you speak for instance about SA Express, SAE, it is a matter that I can tell you ... I’m challenging you. There’s a next debate coming. We are going to engage on the SAE situation but I felt for now I must allow you ...
IsiXhosa:
...ukuba utshayelele, uxhentsele inkosi xa isiza, kodwa uza kuziva xa sele ufikile kuyo.
English:
Now, I also want to acknowledge what member Kwankwa ... which I think we must take seriously. The situation of the African fiscus. It’s a matter that the African Development Bank ...
Kwankwa is also part of. The African Development Bank, a well- rated bank as we speak now, has got what we call high fives.
Amongst others, is integration, connecting Africa, industrialising Africa, lighting Africa, feeding Africa and providing concessional loans so that the African situation is attended to. All African states sit there as ... [Inaudible.] In
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other words, the point we are raising is not a point that is not attended to. Africa is attending to that matter because we have observed it and we are dealing with it. Having said all that, here is the commitment of the stimulus package.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Having said all that, hon Deputy Minister, your time has expired. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: ... because we are going to deal with the mirage. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a first time.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[Voting take in from minutes]
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Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a first time.
UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
(Ruling)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon members, earlier on the hon Hlengwa stood on a point of order with reference to hon Senokoanyane having said that he looked like he is possessed.
According to the dictionary, a person can be possessed by a spirit or ideas. It is not clear whether the member intended to impugn the dignity of the hon Hlengwa or cast aspersions on him.
I would like to caution hon members to avoid using language which may be seen to cause offence to other members. That’s my ruling. Thank you very much. I will now ask the secretary to read the Eighth Order.
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(Consideration of Votes and Schedule)
Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I wish to thank parties for advising the staff on which Votes they would record the objections and on which they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the process. Order, order.
Hon members, the proceedings will initially take the form of a question and answer session. I shall put each Vote in respect of which adjustments have been made and in turn members will have the opportunity to ask questions to the relevant Ministers in respect of these adjustments. Each party has been allocated a global time for all Votes. Members of the executive have up to two minutes to respond to questions per Vote.
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Hon members, there have been request from parties that in some instances they will use their allocated time to make a declaration instead of asking a question. This will be allowed. Naturally, where a declaration instead of a question has been made, there will be no expectation for a reply from the responsible Minister. Once a party’s time has expired, they will not be allowed to put further questions. Members must please press the talk button if they wish to ask a question. Hon members should please wait until I recognise them before putting their question. I now put Vote No – 1. Are there any questions? There is a statement. Hon member. [Applause.]
Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put.
Mr S C MOTAU: Hon Chairperson, the more things change ANC style the more they stay the same. President Ramaphosa like his disastrous predecessor Jacob Zuma, presides over one of the most bloated ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Motau, will you just hold on please. Table staff, will you pay attention please, so that we can deduct the time of the member from the allocated time. Alright. You may continue hon member.
Mr S C MOTAU: Thank you. President Ramaphosa like his disastrous predecessor Jacob Zuma presides over one of the most bloated Cabinet in the world. This is very fertile ground for a very costly ANC’s style cadre deployment.
However, this Parliament has yet to establish a dedicate portfolio committee to exercise oversight on the Presidency despite several pleas from the DA. This Parliament elects the President and it must have oversight on how the vast appropriations for Budget Vote No 1 are expanded to hold the Presidency accountable.
The DA regards this failure as a dereliction of responsibility on the part of the ANC crippled Parliament. The DA will not
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rubberstamp any Budget Vote for the Presidency. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, the challenge in supporting this Vote is that there is still no accountability mechanism. We as the IFP have put a proposal to the Rules Committee that we have a portfolio committee to oversee Vote No 1. Every other government department has a portfolio committee except Vote No
1. I hope now with a new President in place, things will change and that now we can hold the officials in that department accountable for the monies they spent.
Rule 225 is very, very clear in terms of setting up portfolio committees and I hope that next time when we consider Vote No 1 in the Sixth Parliament, we will have a proper portfolio committee that can interrogate the officials in that particular department. Thank you.
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair, in the Presidency, indeed there are departments that account to Parliament, within the Presidency.
Secondly, the Office of the President co-ordinates work of government as a whole. This House holds accountable this work of government. All the departments that are under government and headed by the President are held accountable by this House. So, having said that House Chair, the ANC fully supports the appropriation to Vote No 1.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Chair, as the UDM what we would like to emphasise that should bear in mind as we support this Bill is that for a change the ANC government must please slow down on corruption. We do concede that it cannot do without corruption. That is an accepted fact. [Interjections.] That is the only way in which they know how to run this country – down. However, please slow down! Sit down in your caucus and decide by what percentage you are going to reduce corruption. That is our plea. [Applause.]
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Secondly, underexpenditure is nothing else, but a spit in the face of the poor people who keep voting you time and time again and yet you do not want to spend the money on them, rather you put the money in the pockets of a few individuals some of them are sitting right here. They have facilitated it and the moment people rise up and talk about it they get killed. We read about this latest shooting of this Limpopo councillor who was talking against the VBS Mutual Bank saga. So, those are the two things that we want to stress on behalf of the UDM in so far as the ANC government is concerned. Slow down on corruption and please spend money that we allocate for services for the people. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you hon member. Hon members, I will now put Vote ... my apologies. Vote No 2 – Parliament has not been adjusted. In fact it is not even reflected in the Schedule to the Bill. I will thus put Vote No 3
Communications. Are there any questions? I will now put Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. [Interjections.]
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Ms N V MENTE: Sorry Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, why are you rising?
Ms N V MENTE: I am rising on a point of clarification Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes.
Ms N V MENTE: When do we then get an opportunity to record the objections?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, thank you for the question. Hon members, we will first go through all the Votes and then after that process we will go Vote by Vote and put it for formal consideration by the House. Alright.
Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I also want to encourage you, because it can be a very long afternoon. Speak from your benches you do not need to come and use the podium.
Alright. [Interjections.] Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Are there any questions? [Applause.]
Sepedi:
Mna C D MATSEPE: Modulasetulo wa Ngwako, ke kwana kudu le mohl Chauke ge a re seo EFF e bego e se nyaka ka mo go DA ga se ya se hwetša. Ke kwana le yena ka go fetišiša, ka lebaka la gore pego ya bjale ya VBS e bolela gore ANC le EFF ba hweditše tšhelete ka kua VBS - ke maemo a ditaba ao re bolelago ka ona bjale. [Tsenoganong.] Ga re makale re le ba DA ka lebaka la gore ke tshwanelo gonabjale, ebile go a bontšha le ka mo Palamenteng gore EFF e boela ka mo go lena ka lebaka la gore EFF ke ngwana wa ANC - e tšwa gona ka moo go ANC. Go be go se na ka mokgwa woo EFF e ka se boeleng go lena.
English:
Mr T RAWULA: Chairperson, on a point of order.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member at the podium will you take your seat please, there is a point of order. Take your seat hon member.
Mr T RAWULA: This member is misleading this House. We are not the children of the ANC. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member that is not a point of order. Thank you. It is not a point of order and you can debate that.
Sepedi:
Mr C D MATSEPE: Tšhelete yeo e utswitšwego kua VBS, ke a boeletša – yeo e utswitšwego ke ANC le EFF ... [Tsenoganong.]
... ke tšhelete yeo e ka bego e eya setšhabeng go aba ditirelo. Mebasepala kamoka ya Afrika-Borwa e phuhlame ka lebaka la gore ga e sa na tšhelete. Bašomedi ba ga mmasepala ga ba gole; ga ba na tšhelete. Mebasepala e kolota Eskom dibilione tša diranta. Go a bontšha gore lena ANC ga le na dihlong tša go bolela ka mo Palamenteng gore le emetše setšhaba eupša setšhaba ... kua Ga-
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Sekhukhune ... [Tsenoganong.] ... mme Tobias, kua Ga-Sekhukhune kua ... e tla ke go botše, batho ba Ga-Sekhukhune ba re dintlwana tša boithomelo ... [Tsenoganong.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon member has been recalled from the podium by the DA. Are there any further questions or declarations? Hon Khubisa.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon House Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, I have a question directed to the hon Minister, Dr Mkhize, Khabazela.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members!
Prof N M KHUBISA: Yes, Chairperson, the question is: I would love to hear from the good doctor: Has there been any progress
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that has been made with regard to those municipalities that owe the VBS Mutual Bank? I remember last time you said there was progress working with Treasury and the law-enforcement agencies. I just want to know whether there is anything new that has been done. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I also want to remind you that we are dealing with adjustments here. It is not a general Question Time session that we are having. Your questions must be specific to the adjustment that has taken place in the Vote.
Prof N M KHUBISA: This one is specific, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
House Chairperson, yes, there has been actions in a number of municipalities. We did report that the forensic investigations were done in the three provinces. Already in the North West
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there have been a number of officials that have been charged. So, that process is going ahead. Some of them are actually councillors like in Madibeng the councillor was actually charged.
Then in Limpopo similarly, in Vhembe, in Giyani and some of the municipalities I do not have the list just now. So, there have been actions there. The report has now been received from the North West which was done by Sekela Xabiso forensics. We are going through that report to look at what additional actions are needed in those situations. So, once they are all consolidated we will be able to submit a proper report to all the members.
We did say that we expected that they would be concluded by the end of November. However, at the end of all of these we have taken a clear view that those municipalities are supposed to go and redo their budgets and therefore we are going to be looking at them together with Treasury to see what additional steps need to be taken at that level. Thank you.
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Vote 5 – Home Affairs - put
Declarations of vote:
Mr M H HOOSEN: Chairperson, we have a situation in South Africa, whereby through government’s own estimates we’ve got more than
11 million undocumented South Africans walking around in our country.
Our ports of entry are completely inefficient, and we don’t even have decent borders any longer. So, if you think that the DA is going to be supporting this budget, you must be joking. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, from the ACDP side we appreciate that Home Affairs has many challenges. But we would like to congratulate the new Minister on his appointment. My question relates to programme 2, citizen affairs: The amount of
R930,7 million has been allocated for the production and issuing of passports, smart and identity cards.
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Minister, I’m sure that you would agree with me that this is a very large figure. Possibly, you could clarify what has necessitated this substantial adjustment? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, let me start by saying that the Department of Home Affairs continues to improve its services, and that it had unqualified audit despite all the shortages. The adjustments come mainly from reimbursements of funds that we have started regenerating as the department.
This is a normal practise done by Treasury, so that later on there will be adjustments from funds we have raised. Some of these funds have already been spent, for instance, R200 million was spent on the rollout of the improvement of the offices in order to digitise and have smartcards.
An amount of R900 million is for the production of the citizens’ services, the passports, the rollout and production of more smartcards so that we can reach our targets. But mainly, it is money which comes from self-funding. Some of it has already been
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spent and some of it will be spent later this year. Thank you very much.
Ms S J NKOMO: Chairperson, as I quoted Dickens in A Tale of Two Cities last week, this department had its best of times under the leadership and guidance of Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi and it is now currently challenged as it goes through the worst of times without such leadership.
Last week I stated that if anybody wanted to ask a question, don’t howl among many, just rise up and ask a question. The reality is that Home Affairs must get its act in order; otherwise, it will keep on not reaching its mandate. A return to fundamentals is very necessary in this department.
The department has now stated a major statement which keeps coming up in all our media, and the statement is stated as, our systems are offline. This statement comes out even in our televisions and everywhere else. Therefore, we would like the
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Minister to clarify this statement, our systems are offline. The IFP however supports this report. Thank you.
Vote No 6 – International Relations and Cooperation – agreed to (EFF and DA dissenting).
Vote No 7 – National Treasury – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
No 8 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – agreed to (DA and EFF dissenting).
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Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Declaration of Vote:
Ms N MAZZONE: House Chairperson, the situation in the Department of Public Enterprises is so dire that I’m forced to do quick safety briefing for Parliament.
The emergency exits are sale SAA, sale SA Express and stop the monopoly stranglehold. There is no life jacket left under the
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seat, no oxygen marks had been deployed, but there will be no oxygen flowing due to the lack of funding.
Chair, if we don’t take the bold step and stop privatising our state-owned entities we will wait for the captain’s call to brace for the crash-landing. The DA will not be supporting this Adjustments Appropriation Bill. [Applause.]
Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson, the Public Enterprises is going to be playing out the same scenario we saw playing at the SAPS with the rogue unit.
We now see the famous IPPs, which are taking a lot of money from the budget of the country and brought by the Minister Pravin Gordan, of which we said here, there is a nuclear deal but there is a new nuclear deal in the form of the IPPS.
There has been a booting of Siyabonga Gama without following the due processes and when he has demonstrated the positive results
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at Transnet under his leadership, but guess what, booted out because he is not a favourite of the Minister.
Denel and SAA are going to be sold to private companies. It is not going to happen under our watch. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Chairperson, the ANC support this vote and the ANC does not the privatisation of the SOEs because we still have hope that we have a Minister that has been able to clean up and create stability and making sure that the SOEs are geared up towards financial sustainability.
With that, we know that this Minister is capable of taking the SOEs forward and turn it into a capable financial sound enterprise. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, a question to the Minister, a question in light of the fact that there is now going to be a bailout for the SA Express together with the SAA. Do you believe
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that both these entities can turn the tide and become profitable at some time? Thank you.
THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chair, firstly, I think we need to understand that all of these enterprises were victims - including the big ones like Transnet - of state capture. Being in a denialist mode about that, is where we are going to be futile because there is lots of proof that is coming out, and; there is a lot more proof that will be coming.
Secondly, as a result, there are all in a financial trouble. Thirdly, you sell them today, you got nothing for them.
Fourthly, we need to improve the conditions, operationally, strategically and financially of each of these institutions before we can look at the options.
Fifthly, the government has said that we will bring in strategic equity partners, but you bring them in when you are in good health. You don’t bring them in when you are sick. In the sixth place, there won’t be any crash-landing. Thank you. [Applause.]
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Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 11 – Public Works – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
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Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 12 – Statistics South Africa – agreed to.
Vote No 13 – Women – agreed to (DA, EFF, IFP and FFP dissenting).
Vote No 14 – Basic Education – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
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Declarations of vote:
Ms N I TARABELLA MARCHESI: Chairperson, the earned R800, million added towards the completion of current and ongoing infrastructure school project is a drop in the ocean. We still need the R7,2 billion that has been cut from the budget and also R10, billion needed to have the adequate and safe infrastructure for our learners.
Now, the ANC says kids must wait until 2030 to have proper toilets, which actually means that more of our learners are in danger of falling into pit toilets like Michael Komape from Limpopo and Lumka Mkthethwa from the Eastern Cape; and also not forgetting the recent embarrassing incident where a leaner fell and almost drowned in a pit toilet in Dalibango Primary School in Centane in Eastern Cape.
Clearly, with this government, our children are below looting as a priority. South Africa needs a caring DA government because corruption and mismanagement ruin the future of our children.
The DA believes that every child is valuable and therefore must
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be treated equally and fairly. We won’t support this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr X NGWEZI: House Chairperson, the IFP believes that schools must be safe environments for teaching and learning. Therefore, we urge the department to deal with infrastructure challenges that have become dangerous to both our kids and learners as we go to 2019.
Secondly, hon House Chairperson, the department must urgently deal with the violence that actually exists in our schools, whether it is a teacher to learner or learner to teacher or learner to learner violence it must be dealt with. I think we have seen enough deaths and injuries in our schools. We cannot want to see others going forward. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Nk N GINA: Sihlalo singuKhongolose siyaseseka le sabiwomali. Sibonge kakhulu ...
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English:
... to see the strides that the department has taken, more especially when it comes to the issues of the infrastructure.
We know, we fully agree that there are still challenges even when it comes to the issues of sanitation toilets, but the intervention that the department has come up with together with the intervention of the President of the country, we truly believe as the department has committed, that by the end of next year, we will be talking about less of such cases or it will be a thing of the past.
So, we really appreciate the steps, the commitment that the department has taken and we are condemning those people who will always stand up on a very negative note, even if there are strides and commitment that the department might have made. So it is one of the things that we commend the department for doing, and; we fully support the budget vote that is in front of us. Thank you. [Applause.]
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Vote No 15 – Higher Education and Training – put.
Declarations of Vote:
Prof B BOZZOLI: Higher Education and Training’s budget is much distorted. Lots of extra resources came into it basically because of the extortion by students who threatened violence if they did not get what they wanted. This means all the extra billions in Higher Education and Training which really comes from the other departments has actually gone to students cost and very little to actual real problems in education, for example, poor schooling, poor Technical Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges, unstable universities and neglected postgraduates.
This is what happens when you put all your money to satisfy the noises of those most violent sectors of the population leaving none for more difficult and complex issues. We don’t support this budget. We think it is misdirected. We think it should have been even more adjusted and we think it is unsustainable. Thank you.
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Mr N S MATIASE: House Chair, free and quality education will remain a pipe dream never to arise on the horizon for as long as the government continue to perpetuate the apartheid patterns of financial exclusions for most of the deserving working class students. For as long as students who waged a very bold struggle for fees-must- fall remain in prisons and kept in police cells for a just course.
We call on government to ensure that those who remain in prison and those who are facing criminal charges, such charges are dropped to ensure that they enjoy and benefit from the fruits of the struggle they have waged. For that and until government revise its approach to that, this Budget Vote shall be rejected. We reject it until those students are freed from prison.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: House Chair, of course the ANC would support Vote 15. Hon members, we are all reminded in this House that the struggle that the students waged to improve their lives and to make sure that the ANC government implements the just issues that they have raised. We will always support the fact that our
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Constitution says that we must improve Higher Education and Training in this country.
It will be wrong of us to then call those students noisy makers and also call them a range of different things when in the main is the poorest of the poor that has asked that we improve the situation of education. Minister, the question is, does the budget correctly increase the roll-out for students housing infrastructure? Can you inform the House what benefits would be derived from this, including the fact that we have an increase into the skills levy that came to about R382 million? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, the
student housing infrastructure funding would be directed primarily to four institutions; Nelson Mandela University where a health sciences faculty is planned, Sefako Makgatho Health Sciences University which is a new addition in the health sciences arena, we will also be providing funding to Vaal University of Technology and we will be establishing a project
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management office on infrastructure where we will have technical support to ensure successful execution of the initiatives.
With respect to the sector skills fund, the sector of the Education and Training Authority Funding will be very pleased at that because we think it will help us to providing increased support to young people who requires skills training and employment. So, we would be asking the Skills Education Training Authorities, Setas, that we should focus primarily on young people that can get skills in order to speedily enter the employment space. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Vote No 16 – Health – put.
Declaration of Vote:
Ms E R WILSON: Chair, despite a budget of R1,6 billion for National Health Insurance, NHI, health planning and system enablement, health has systematically collapsed. Monies for employing doctors at NHI pilot sites were not spent on doctors, but on debt. Within a year those badly needed doctors were
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unemployed in a lot of areas. Billions of rands spent on NHI and everything else in health has come to zero. The R134 billion transferred to the provinces will not be used to upgrade services. It will do nothing to support the poor and vulnerable.
There is nothing in this budget to arrest the decaying health, let alone like we know how the NHI works. So desperate is the Minister that he has made alterations to the NHI Bill without following procedures or consulting with the Portfolio on Health. Only the comatose could give the nod to this abysmal report as presented by this department. I thank you. [Applause.]
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ezempilo nje zehlulekile kuzo zonke izifundazwe. Njengoba ngikhuluma nani nje eKwaZulu-Natal kunenkinga enkulu yezidumbu ekufanele ngabe zihlinziwe kwenziwe uhlolo lwembangela yokufa ukuze zihambe ziyongcwatshwa ngenxa yalo Hulumeni ongafuni ukulalela izikhalo zabantu nokuba abanikeze izinsiza. Abantu abangcwatshiwe, leyo mizimba ihleli ekhaya, kuhlinzwa isidumbu ngasinye ngosuku.
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Okunye okukhona yinkinga laphaya emtholampilo nasezibhedlela zasemakhaya, abantu bakhona abanakiwe, izibhedlela azithuthukiswa, odokotela abekho, abahlengikazi, wakhe wezwa kuphi ukuthi umhlengikazi uyivolontiya. Laphaya nje kugcina sekuthiwa manje kunezibhedlela ezithize, koMphumulo, yilena kude nakude, kuzo zonke izifundazwe sinenkinga efanayo.
Njengoba ngikhuluma nani nje, ngithi anginazise ukuthi sisenkingeni ngalo Hulumeni okhona ongakwazi ukubhekelela izinkinga zabantu abamnyama ikakhulukazi noma kuthiwa sekufanele ngabe bayasinda izimoto zeziguli azikho, odokotela abekho, abantu kufuneka ukuthi bahlinzwe ukuze babhekwe ukuthi baphila kangakanani akwenzeki. Ngaleyo ndlela sithi siyayikhahlela lento, ayikho umsebenzi wayo. Abantu bayagula njengoba ngikhuluma nani. Ngimutshelile-ke nangu uNgqongqoshe wenu ukuthi e-75 imindeni ihleli ndawonye, iyagula kodwa ihlaliswa endlini eyodwa, shona khona. Ngiyabonga.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon House Chair, a question to Minister, let me commend you on your passion to provide National Health
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Insurance and universal health coverage. We note that there will be funding for additional 2000 critical medical posts. Firstly, I want to know what impact will it have on the rolling out of your NHI? Secondly, your community health care workers programme that you putting in place – which is a great thing – but if you remember a while ago we agreed that community health care workers will be made permanent. Could you please advise on that as well? Thank you.
Mr A F MAHLALELA: Chair, as the ANC, we want from the onset to indicate that we support the Vote as reflected and deal with the myth that the Bill on NHI is not before Parliament. Therefore, it is still with the executive. There is no requirement in terms of the law that when a Bill is being processed by the executive it must do so in consultation with the committee. There is no such a law. Therefore, we are still waiting as the portfolio committee for the Bill to be tabled by the Minister before Parliament so that it gets referred to the committee. It is only at that stage that the committee will be able to engage with the Bill as required by the law. Not the other way round.
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Secondly, we want to request the Minister just to clarify what are the implications of the current adjustment in relation to the NHI implementation as well as to what extent will you assure this House that the allocations for linens and other related finances that has been given will be able to be used accordingly, taking into consideration the financial constraint that the provinces find themselves. How do you make sure that this money will be used for that intended purpose? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, indeed as it was announced by the President himself we are trying to use the stimulus package to inject more people in the Human Resource, HR, in the form of 2000 health workers. It will be doctors, nurses, etc. It is a drop in the ocean but it will help. The number of people we need in the health care system is more than that. That is why during the presidential co-ordinating council with the premiers it was decided that the health budget needs to be recalibrated to deal specifically with HR issues and infrastructure.
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The second thing about community health workers, yes, we took a decision that community health workers must be absorbed by the state to become permanent members of the workforce. Two weeks ago, I had an event with the Member of the Executive Council, MEC, for Health in Gauteng, Doctor Gwen Ramokgopa, where they absorbed 9000 community health workers as permanent members of the workforce and they are all put on minimum wage. [Applause.] All the other provinces promised to do so and by June next year,
54 000 community health workers will be permanent members of the workforce on a minimum wage. Of course, except in the Western Cape which said that they won’t be part of that programme.
The stimulus package hon member Mahlalela – let me start with the shorter one – is for Human Resources, for linen and to buy beds. We are 100% sure that it will be used for that because no cash will be sent in provinces. We have already identified the areas where we will buy the linen. It is a facility owned by ... Thank you. [Time expired.]
Vote No 17 – Social Development – put.
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Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.
Vote No 19 – Defence and Military Veterans – put.
Vote No 20 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate – put.
Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms P BHENGU-KOMBE: Chairperson, the 54th Conference of the ANC call on a need to debate the subject on the decriminalisation of sex work. The Commission on Gender Equality, CGE, has provided the comprehensive report with its recommendation on sex work and their position based on the human’s rights approach which is in line with the international laws. Therefore, hon Minister, will this appropriation allow you to rollout sensitisation programmes to debate this aspect within the stakeholders and the societies? Thank you very much.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are there any further questions to Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development? If not, the Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT (Mr J J
Jeffery): Chairperson, the issue of decriminalisation of people who sell sex is a complex issue. It is definitely something that we need to ensure that there are debates and we will be doing in the coming financial year.
Let me just explain why it’s not simple to decriminalise or criminalise. Effectively, sex workers are currently not been prosecuted for engaging in sex workers as far as I am aware. What they are being arrested for is for other infringements such as soliciting, municipal bylaws, etc. That is where the problem comes in.
So, the issue is basically - there is a number of scenarios, do you fully decriminalise, you have partially decriminalisation
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which is what is happening in the Northern countries and recently by France and Canada, where the selling of sex is not criminalise but the buying of sex is criminalised. If you decriminalise and that the Nordic Model is supported by the NCOP which had a study trip to Scandinavia.
If you do go for full decriminalisation, what happens to the pimps, what happens to where you can solicit for work, given the views of individuals who live in those areas? So, it’s a complex issue. It’s something we need to debate as South Africa. Yes, we are already involved in programmes to support the rights of sex workers as human beings. Thank you.
Vote No 22 – Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration – put.
Vote No 23 – Police – put.
Declarations of vote:
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Mr Z N MBHELE: Chairperson, the DA supports our cops on the ground but objects to the ANC’s sponsored cronyism and corruption that leaves them under resourced and under equipped. We support our hardworking dedicated men and women in blue, but objects to the ANC sponsored mismanagement that leaves them languishing in overcrowded dilapidated police stations.
The ANC has clearly shown that it lacks the political will to make the fundamental reform required to make the Police Service an effective crime fighting organisation. Only the DA has a plan to fix the SAPS and make it honest and professional. [Applause.]
So, my question is: would the Minister, Baba Ndosi, agree to give the DA-run Western government its portion of the SAPS budget to manage directly? Then maybe, we might support this Vote and show you how the police should be run. Thank you.
Ms N V MENTE: Minister of Police, firstly, the Deputy Minister of Justice is giving us a new clarification in relation with the arrest of sex workers. I put it to you, Deputy Minister, that
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sex workers get arrested under the loitering term. They signed J534 and kept in cells for four hours. Can you please make sure that doesn’t happen?
Secondly, the whole country, Minister, you know the scourge of violence against women, molestation against boys and then the rape of young children and women, but the whole country does not have DNA Swabs. So, what does that mean? It means that justice a very thin thing for the victims to achieve. Can we get assurance from you that as from Monday; at least, we will be getting DNA swabs into the police stations?
Lastly, can we get assurance from you that you are going to stop the sole provider of the tires in the police because the vans in rural areas and townships and everywhere else which is very far from the central point like the Cape Town, a sole provider of the tires is based in Johannesburg? That delays the vans to get the tires. Most of the vans are packed in police stations because they do not have spare wheels. Thank you very much.
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Minister, there appears to be a lot of peace now, particularly in the Cape Flats. Allow me to commend you for your anti-gang unit. Could you elaborate and tell us what have been the real successes and whether you intend taking this to other areas also affected with gang violence? Thank you.
Mr X NGWEZI: House Chairperson, violence against women and children have sky rocketed, 57 murders per day has become the order of the day and rape. Sexual assault and robbery has sadly become a norm in our society. Prosecution of crime and enforcement of the law is paramount.
We need to work together to ensure that policing intervention is strengthened but in doing so, we must address the socioeconomic conditions of our people.
The IFP has always called for the specialise courts to deal with corruption, which is the apex of the rot in our country. We need an Integrity Commission to ensure that public office bearers are fully complied with the oath which they take upon being sworn
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in. Get rid of the rot, address the scourge of violence in our society and redress the inequalities that haunt our people. The IFP supports.
Mr S N SWART: House Chair, the ACDP is very grateful to the thousands of loyal South African policemen who serve the nation, many of who make the supreme sacrifice and give their lives.
We will urge that, members of civil society churches adopt a police station and come alongside them and assist them, pray for them, pray for their safety.
As far as the Hawks are concerned, we are concerned of report that there are 1 500 corruption cases whilst they are making good progress with private sectors, Steinhoff, VBS and Old Mutual enquiries. It is a concern to us given that the Public Protector’s State of Capture Report into corruption at Eskom, Transnet and others was forwarded to them some two years ago and very little progress seems to have been made in those investigations.
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So, we urge Parliament to hold the Hawks accountable to call them to account as well as the national Prosecuting Authority as to what progress has been made with these investigations. I thank you.
Mr F BEUKMAN: Hon Minister, the question from the side of the ANC, we have seen recent successes by the SA Police Service with regard to dealing with the issue of cash in transit. There has been a major reduction in cash-in -transit heists and one of the reasons maybe is the issue of specialised units. We have seen the TRT, the NIU, the task team, task force also contributing.
What is the Minister View? Should the specialised units further strengthen going forward? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The member of the DA, Baba Mbhele, must go and read the Constitution on what it says about policies.
That will be the best he can do for himself. Secondly, the DNA swabs have been ordered. Yes, we expect some delays, but we also expect their arrival soon.
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Decentralisation is on board of dealing with the specialised cases in the provinces under the umbrella of the national command and control.
With regard to the anti-gang unit, unfortunately I can’t give the details. But if you want to hear about the wonderful work of the SA Police Service, ask the Western Cape people, especially those from the Cape Flats and African townships. They will tell you that at long last, the SA Police Service has taken over their safety and they are very much grateful. But tomorrow, we are giving a full account of how many high fly risks we have arrested and how many cases are in court. More than 40 cases are in court, top of them are arrested and millions of rands and drugs were confiscated. Listen to us tomorrow.
Fifty seven murders a day are not only women. It is South Africans that are dying a day, of which is a bad number. We are trying to work on it very well. Hawks are beginning to fly, hon member. We can see them working. New people have been put in
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place. Last week, the Cabinet has employed the new heads in several provinces.
With regard to cash in transit, a specialised unit will be forever there. We are very thankful, especially on the crime intelligence that everybody has been dancing around it. It is doing a very good work. Thank you.
Vote No 24 – Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front dissenting).
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 25 — Economic Development - put
Division demanded.
The House divided.
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[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Declarations of vote:
Dr M J CARDO: Chairperson, the Department of Economic Development has failed to promote inclusive growth. It has failed to reduce unemployment and, it has failed to bring clarity and coherence to economic policy making in government. This year, according to the International Monetary Fund, South Africa will grow at less than 1%.
In 2009, there were 6,7% million unemployed South Africans. Today, there are almost 10 million South Africans without a job. With every passing quarter, the National Development Plan’s target of 5% growth, 11 million jobs and 6% unemployment become more and more unobtainable.
The Competition Commission which receives over R366 million in transfers from the Department of Economic Development’s R1 billion budget was responsible for a R128 million in a regular expenditure in the past two financial years in order to feed its
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deeply entrenched patronage network centred on Ndzabandzaba Attorneys Inc.
The DA will not support this budget and in 2019, we believe that the department should be shutdown and its budget and functions should be channelled to other departments. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Are there any further questions? Hon Minister, that was not a question but if you wish to respond to it you can do so.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: House Chair, I think that the hon Cardo has been present at the number of portfolio committee meetings, where we dealt very extensively with the issue of both inclusive growth and the role of the department.
Just yesterday in fact, hon Cardo was taken through 64 examples of real empowerment bringing in black industrialists women and young people in a range of activities ranging from agro processing to the green economy, to core industrialisation, to
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transport infrastructure, all of these. I do understand that we are heading for an election but, I don’t think that gives us licence to change the facts. We can have any option but don’t change the facts. Stick to the facts. So I think that we have a good record and we need to do a lot more and we are committed to doing that. Thank you very much.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 26 – Energy – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Declarations of vote:
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Ms G NGWENYA: Chairperson, the DA and South Africans were under the impression that we were safe and clear of any nuclear danger. So imagine our surprise when it brief but [Inaudible] through the adjustments revealed that R59 million allocations to the nuclear Bill. These funds were used to finance 59 million on research.
The DA has advised the ANC for years about the drawbacks of its Russian passion. This passion at first contained but toxic waste seen radiated throughout the entire ANC and to let it clearly burnt every single brain to a crisp. How else do you explain the fact that they spent R259 million on research and insights that the DA had been providing for free for years. Ironically, the treatment for radioactive materials is a blue pill named “passion blue”. It did not come in time to save South Africans R259 million. But the next time I sit in the Portfolio Committee on Energy and witness brains fried by radioactive activity I would make sure to ask the Deputy President for his medical contacts.
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Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 27 – Environmental Affairs – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 28 – Labour - put
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
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Declarations of vote:
Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, the ANC supports Budget Vote no 28 on Labour. We need to appreciate the signing into law the four pieces of legislation on labour by the President on Friday, last week. Amongst the pieces of legislation that we are speaking about is the National Minimum Wage Act, which is a historic Act in this country that seeks to also improve the wages for plus- minus 6 million workers in our country.
The question that I now need to raise with the Minister is, to explain to us the real impact of this piece of legislation, the National Minimum Wage Act and their preparedness to implement it. Thank you very much.
Mr S N SWART: Chair, the ACDP would just like to commend its colleague Cheryllyn Dudley for the portion of the Private Members Bill allowing for Paternity Leave which was signed into Law this week which allows and we would commend her at its very progressive and let us as the House ... it is the first time in
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history that a Private Members Bill has been passed by an opposition party. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: House Chairperson, firstly, on that National Minimum Wage Act, I just want to say to the hon member that of course, there is a positive impact particularly, on those workers that were not part of getting the wages in particular, from the hospitality sector who were paid through tips. And also to those that have been paid through the wage bargaining agreements that were less than the National Minimum Wage Act that has been agreed to.
Through you hon House Chair, to the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Labour, we have now signed the request for the President to promulgate the implementation of the National Minimum Wage Act. Immediately when the President has promulgated the Act, then we would be able to educate the workers particularly, those who were previously not paid their wages in this country.
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I also want to challenge those that are saying these are peanuts precisely, because some of them they didn’t have the opportunity to get those particular wages.
To the hon member from the ACDP, we welcome the comment. However, I also want to indicate that the Labour Laws Amendment Bill didn’t only look at the paternity issues but, it also looked at the same sex marriages for adoption and that those parents who have adopted children will also qualify as long as they were contributing to the unemployment insurance. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 29 – Mineral Resources – put.
Division demanded.
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[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 30 – Science and Technology – agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Vote No 31 - Small Business Development – put.
Division demanded.
The House demanded.
[TAKEN FROM MINUTES.]
Declarations of vote:
Mr R W T CHANCE: Chairperson, the only adjustment to this budget that would be appropriate would be as complete readjustment out
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of the budget. The plain fact is, with economic growth of less than 1%, our economy and small businesses are struggling. They are going backwards and not forwards. The department is a blip on the rate that the small businesses is struggling to survive the deluge of red tape, inaccessible government support and unfriendly business environment. It is totally irrelevant to the vast majority of them. With the result that it is incapable of making a dent in the 9,7 million people unemployed.
Small businesses have the potential to create millions of jobs in South Africa but only the DA has the capacity and the ability to make that happened. We reject this budget. Thank you.
Nkul X MABASA: Mutshamaxitulu, ANC yi seketela Vhoti ya 31.
English:
The Department of Small Business Development attempts to address the inequalities, poverty and unemployment primarily caused by apartheid and colonialism. That repressive class is what the DA represents. Who can forget that blacks were not allowed to own
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shops in towns? Minister, how the historic obstacles hindering the progress of black businesses be overcome. How can these obstacles be overcome?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T |DIDIZA): I am sorry Minister. Can you respond?
IsiZulu:
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Sihlalo WeNdlu,
Ngiyabonga kakhulu ngoba bekuzosuka impi enkulu kakhulu. Abakwazi ukuthi bakhulume singaphenduli ngoba lento abayikhulumayo bayayazi bona ngokwabo ukuthi sila sikhona nje ngenxa yabo. Uma sasikwazile ukuthi kule minyakeni eyizinkulungwane edlule umuntu omnyama wayekwazi naye ukuziqalela ibhizinisi lakhe ngabe sikude kabi. Lo okhuluma nge- bioscope yena uyibhayiskobho yena ngokwakhe. [Ubuwelewele.] Uhleli laphaya ngoba eyi-bioscope. Bonke laba abahleli ngaphesheya laphaya bayi-bioscope bona ngokwabo.
English:
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The fact of the matter is that the role of small and medium enterprises is clearly understood by the government of the ANC. It is clearly understood that we need to create conducive environment for them. However, the challenge that we face is that even when that environment is created for Small, Medium & Micro Enterprise Businesses, SMMEs, the access to market is very difficult and that access to market doesn’t sit this side, it sits that side. Access to market is about big companies closing the possibilities and access to that market for SMMEs.
Thirdly, it is also about the fact that access to finance – unfortunately, for SMMEs continues to depend only on government, when in all honesty, this South Africa belongs who live in it black and white. But when it comes to access to finance most of your black owned, women owned, youth owned can’t go anywhere else except government and it’s impossible for the government to be able to assist them.
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SMMEs must be assisted both by government and the private sector and the “bioscope films” must start speaking to the reality of that. Thank you.
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 32 – Telecommunications and Postal Services – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 33 – Tourism – agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting)
Vote No 34 – Trade and Industry – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Declarations of vote:
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Ms J L FUBBS: Hon Chairperson, Trade and Industry that is Vote No 34 happens to be the most dynamic Vote that is on the books today ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... for various reasons. Because of those reasons, although Economic Development is not my area, I was surprised to hear the hon Khadu talking about job loses, etc. Of course, there are a couple of job losses. [Interjections.] ... but the issue is this, hon Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!
Ms J L FUBBS ... why doesn’t the opposition say that we have gained ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. [Interjections.] Hon Fubbs, can you take a seat. What is the point of order, hon member?
Mr D MACPHERSON: Just a point of order Chair: Is it correct to mislead the House by calling 10 million unemployed people, a couple of unemployed people? [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. Can you take your seat? Proceed, hon member.
Ms J L FUBBS: If I may be allowed to continue. Take Komatsu for example, these Komatsu campuses are building a whole skills upgrading issue and this indicate their confidence in our country. We also have these 985 million who have retained more than 900 jobs. Why don’t we hear you saying that, and they have retained these jobs because of the measures that have been put in by the Department of Trade and Industry under the leadership of Minister Rob Davies. I thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Vote No 35 – Transport – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
Question agreed to.
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Vote accordingly agreed to.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Chair, with regard to Transport, there is a serious concern about the fact that the government has suddenly stopped subsidising the taxi industry. There used to be a subsidy for them to hand in their old kombis and exchange for a given figure and the government will help them to acquire new vehicles. Why has government stopped subsidising them? This has led to a way that they have now, out of frustration resorted to form their own political party which will have a number of seats here in the opposition benches, come next year. Why has the government stopped subsidising them, given that they are strategic partners to the economy of this country, transporting as they do, millions of people everyday. We want answers.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Filtane, as you know that the question must be relevant to the adjustment - I hope you have noted that in your question, it was not quite relevant, but the Minister can respond if he wants to. I recognise the hon member of the DA.
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Mr M S F DE FREITAS: House Chair, earlier today my colleague the hon David Maynier described the failing state-owned enterprises, SOEs, as zombie-style SOEs. Well, thank you to the equally failing government, we now also have zombie-style projects, the e-toll project is exactly an example of such. This project is now billions of rands in the red. And what this ANC government do, is to do what is has done with the failed zombie-style SOEs; it bails this project out.
In this budget, R3 billion was transferred from the passenger rail agency to SA National Roads Agency, Sanral, nontoll network. The Passenger Rail Agency of SA, Prasa, is the most desperate and disastrous transport entity and it need every cent it can get to fix the failing rail infrastructure. Instead, the ANC takes money away from it. The R3 billion and an additional R2,7 billion was moved from Sanral nontoll network to the e- tolls. This was all done very quietly in the hope that the DA and the public would not notice the shuffling of money to prop up the zombie-style projects. On this fact alone, we simply cannot support this Vote.
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Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: House Chairperson, through you to the Minister, clearly there seems to be some kind of a capacity problem in the department, if you look at the issue of Prasa and R3 billion that has been taken away. Prasa goes on to say that even if you did not take it away they would not have been able to spend. What measures are you putting in place to be able to correct that? That is surely going to affect service delivery which is what they have alluded to.
IsiZulu:
Mnu M P SIBANDE: Sihlalo, i-ANC iyasesekela le sabiwomali. Sihlalo ngicela ukukhumbuza wonke umphakathi waseNingizimu Afrika ngempumelelo eyenziwe yilohulumeni oholwa yi-African Congress, ngaphandle kwakhe akekho omunye.
English:
There in Mount Edgecombe Interchange, one of the largest and hi- tech interchange in the southern hemisphere ...
IsiZulu:
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... kuyatshengisa ukuthi uhulumeni ukhathazekile ngoba wenze okuthile laphaya eThekwini ku-N2. Laphaya ekungeneni lapho kuhlangana iNingizimu neMozambique kunebholoho elikhulu elehlise amahora ayisithupha ukuya kuhora elilodwa lapho bekugangiwa khona ngesikhathi sobandlululo - uma ngabe kuyogangiwa eMozambique eMatola. Kufuneka sibakhumbuze. Kubuye futhi laphaya eMbonini ese-Nigel eyakhiwe ...
English:
... a railway, which was opened by President Ramaphosa, is the cutting edge facility globally. We are now going to manufacture our own 560 trains here in South Africa to create jobs, Minister
...
IsiZulu:
... ongakhuluma ngawo. Ikhona ingoma yomzabalazo ebeyithi: “shosholoza Mandela, shaya induku mfana siyozwa ngawe uma sekulungile.” Thina sithi: shosholoza Ngqongqoshe, shaya induku mfana sizokuzwa ngawe uma ukhetho selufikile ngoba i-ANC izothatha konke. [Ubuwelewele.]
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, through you to Mr Filtane, regarding the recapitalisation, it has not been stopped at all. What has happened is that the service provider’s contract came to the end and we are appointing a new contractor. Firstly, when it started we were paying each taxi owner who have scrapped their taxis R50 000 ; now we are paying them R90 000 and the intention is to increase that when we finalise the process of reviewing the programme. Secondly, regarding the issue of moving R3 billion from Prasa to Sanral - that was capital expenditure, Capex, budget which Prasa was not going to use and Sanral required it. So, we thought that it can actually be moved. Of course, we will be taking the money back to Prasa, as to when that will happen ... Therefore, there is nothing abnormal that has actually happened. We are going to ensure that Sanral continues to build and maintain our roads.
The tolling system is as old as the 1700s. It started here in the Western Cape. It was done manually where people would stand on the road and collect money for e-tolls. We developed it in South Africa and collected it through toll plazas and what we
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see today, and of course we evolved to the electronic collection which is nothing but the development of how you collect money.
We are looking into that - we are implementing the method of collecting money which is the tolling system or the user-pay system which I believe continues to be the government policy. It is only the method of collection which we are reviewing and looking into. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Vote No 36 – Water and Sanitation – put.
Mr L J BASSON: Water and Sanitation is bankrupt with
R7,6 billion in unauthorised irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure, and had to pay more than R8 billion on a accruals, overdraft, unbudgeted commitments out of this financial year.
The result is that there is no infrastructure development, maintenance and bucket eradication. This department failed to eradicate the filthy undignified bucket toilets. This department is full of corruption and is infected with an infected with a toxic Nomvula Mokonyane virus and the result is that South
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Africans suffer without water and dignified sanitation. I thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr L JOHNSON: Chairperson, what I can say is that the ANC means business. [Interjections.] We don’t just walk; we act. A company masquerading as a grade 9 is investigated and found to be on the other side of the law. We said in our Budget Vote debate that going forward, no corrupt implicated officials under investigation or charged must be allowed to continue plundering the department further.
Senior officials of the department and entities are being charged for wrong doing, leaving no stone unturned. The ANC is on course in bettering the lives of our people by bringing about clean water and dignified sanitation solutions. That is why the people of South Africa shall continue to support the party of Mandela, the party of Sisulu, especially in the coming 2019 elections. The ANC supports this budget. [Interjections.]
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Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Minister, I would like to ask this question again and again. When can I see the statue of Winnie Mandela on the parliamentary precinct? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: As soon as we apply for that process and follow it to the letter and it will come to me. I can’t do it for you, I must judge – remember? So, if you start it, I will wait for it this side. Thank you.
Vote No 38 – Human Settlements – put.
Vote No 39 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Hon Chair, leading up to today, my spirits has been lifted by our multiparty portfolio committee. I need to be dropped by the department and internal ANC shenanigans, but really what else can we expect other than a poor budget
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allocation to land reform, the consistent shifting of land reform goalposts, the elitist capture of properties meant for primary claimants, the factional score settling form within for the department, the inability to measure success or failure, and through this, trying to change section 25 of the Constitution in an attempt to show some form of credibility towards the voters.
The department is in a mess, the budget is insignificant and our people are getting very anxious. It is time to cut your umbilical cord with the ANC as it is pulling you down with it.
It’s time for change; it’s time to vote for the DA. Viva DA viva! Viva “abantu bakithi” [our people]! We cannot support this. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr M L W FILTANE: Why has the Department of Rural Development decided to shift funds from one category to another such that you are now advancing the courts of commercial farmers whilst abandoning the poor into a project called blended finance? What is the thinking behind leaving the poor so that you can advance the cause of commercial farmers? Not that we are against it, but
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we just want to know the reasoning behind making the poor to get poorer. What is the reason? Thank you.
Ms N K F HLONYANA: For years, this department has failed to live up to its mandate. While this is partly due to government incompetence of the ANC and its corruption, but also this department was set up to fail from the beginning. We cannot operate within the limits of our Constitution; that is why at the beginning of the year when the EFF tabled the motion to amend section 25; it was something to be celebrated. It is kindly very limiting. For centuries, generation upon generation has fought for this dispossession without making the ultimate sacrifice. Today, we the current generation of freedom fighters have undertaken a historic task of returning our land to the people, land that was taken and ripped away from us in 1652. It is very ghastly here for us.
By next year, with or without the DA, we are going to have to amend section 25 of the Constitution. It would be amended. The process of land expropriation without compensation would have
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begun and maybe then, we will start to support the budget of this department. Thank you.
Ms L C THEKO: Chairperson, land reform is slow due to various reasons, one being the exorbitant prices of land. Now, land reform will be faster, as we are going to expropriate land without compensation. People will see the positive results. What I want to ask is how are the smallholder farmers going to benefit from the smallholder farmers? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you. Is there a response from the Minister or Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND AFFAIRS: House
Chairperson, I just want to indicate the DA member that the amendment of the Constitution is a decision of the majority of the South Africans. [Interjections.] I don’t care whether the DA is part of it or not, but it is a process that is happening within Parliament. Hon Filtane, on the issue of blended finance, we are trying our best to support our smallholder farmers in
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this programme. We are going to give smallholder farmers grants and also part of the loans because we think that there are lots of demands in our communities, especially from our smallholder farmers and the people that are going to occupy the land that we are going to expropriate. We therefore need to give them part loan and part grant so that everybody can benefit. Expropriation of land without compensation is a must and it will happen. [Applause.]
Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.
Mr T W MHLONGO: Chairperson, I’d like to congratulate Banyana Banyana on making history especially in South Africa. [Applause.] Thank you. I’d like to call on the Minister of Sport and Recreation to make sure that he supports Banyana Banyana especially in terms of human resources. One of the things ... [Interjections.] Whatever ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order!
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Mr T W MHLONGO: One of the things that we are doing with sport
... Sport can develop; sport can unite the nation, but the ANC has failed to make sure that there is unity in South Africa.
Regarding the Vhembe Municipality, there is grant of plus-minus R29 million which was spent on an incomplete stadium in Vhembe. This includes VBS issues. Minister, what are you going to do about that?
One of the things that we are still waiting for is the report of the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Sascoc. It is now nine months and two days that we have spent waiting for this report. We’ve spent more than R4 million for that Sascoc report. I don’t see the Minister. Deputy Minister, when is the report going to come out?
Regarding the 30 days’ invoice, to date more than five companies are still waiting for payment. What are you going to do? Are we going to have officials being made to be accountable for
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consequence management? I ask this because we don’t implement that.
One of the things that we are waiting for is regarding Boxing SA. They don’t follow tender processes; they are failing the department. What are you going to do, Deputy Minister, to make sure that they implement exactly what we have agreed to as a committee?
One is the things that the ANC has done ... there is a plan, but they cannot implement that plan. You fail South Africa to make sure that we unite for women’s empowerment, especially Banyana Banyana, and we’ve failed even to make sure that we take care of our mothers because ...
[IsiZulu:]
Ms N V MENTE: I have just one question. Deputy Minister, could you please tell us when Banyana Banyana is going to get the same
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privileges, the same benefits and the same salaries as Bafana Bafana?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member, your seconds are up.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, I do want to ask a question about Banyana Banyana, because we seem to be in the habit of rewarding losers. The male teams get a lot of money, but the females who are doing us proud are not being paid enough. So, we’d like to know when there is going to be equity and parity. Secondly, in your programme you talk about improving the quality of life of all South Africans. Now, besides the traditional sports that we know of – soccer, netball, etc – what other programmes are there of the department to improve the quality of life of all South Africans?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, I also want to concur when it comes to the challenges with allocations to women’s sport - and to men’s - but particularly
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for Banyana Banyana and Bafana Bafana. Now, regarding the Legacy Fund, billions are still missing. No audit reports. Nothing has happened. Now, we hear that Basketball SA is having serious challenges. They are in court. Will you initiate investigations into both: the 2010 World Cup and the Legacy Fund, and Basketball SA? Thank you.
Mr S M RALEGOMA: Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote because the department is well run. The department has had a clean audit consecutively five times. Secondly, South Africa remains competitive in sport because of the ANC.
The Proteas – the cricket team – is playing internationally. The Springboks are playing well. Banyana Banyana has just won.
Bafana Bafana is in line to qualify.
The issue that we are worried about as the ANC is transformation
whether some of the parties that are here will be in a position to take us forward. Our worry, given the example that we see in terms of the caucus here which is lily white, is
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whether we’ll be in a position to go forward once they can do what they are claiming that they will. It is something that they won’t see ... because I have also seen on their website here in the Western Cape that the word “transformation” is nonexistent. So, what type of party is anti transformation, but wants our own people to vote for it? So, we support this Budget Vote because the ANC remains the only party that pursues nonracialism in South Africa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, in
terms of the IFP’s question: My friend, we have mass participation programmes, we have active recreation programmes, we have school sport mass participation programmes ... So, there is a hive of activity on sport and recreation to really get our nation active and to make it a winning nation.
As far as the Legacy Fund of Safa is concerned, it is being audited, the information is available, and the member is more than welcome to approach our offices. We will serve him with that information.
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When comes to what the hon member of the DA and all other members said: it is not only Banyana Banyana which we are very proud of who did exceptionally well to qualify. It is also the female cricketers who win all the time. They are doing very well. Our netball girls are doing fantastically and they are flying the flag very high for our country. So, we are indeed proud of the female sports teams and what they are doing and achieving for our country.
In terms of the unite campaign, it was the father of our nation Nelson Mandela, the first president of a democratic South Africa, that showed us the power of sport to unite the nation. We continue to do so every day of our lives.
In terms of the boxing report, we have turned this around. The new CEO and the board are doing exceptionally well. We’re dealing with the legacy of boxing. It’s on the up, and we’re looking forward to a clean audit coming out again.
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As far as the Sascoc report is concerned, I find it very strange. It is a commission of inquiry. A retired judge is conducting it. He is calling evidence. He is working with the report, and it will released in time when we have received it. I trust that I have dealt with all the questions. Thank you. [Applause.]
STATEMENT ON VOTING AND DOOR INCIDENT IN THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! That concludes the question-and-answer session on the Votes. Before we proceed, I want to come back to the matter that happened earlier in the House. Order, hon members!
I would like to address the House about the incident which occurred earlier today during the voting on the report of the Standing Committee on Appropriations on the Adjustments Appropriation Bill. The incident was, indeed, unfortunate and did not reflect well on the business of the House. It is evident
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that certain Rules were transgressed at the time which led to the incident.
Firstly, I can report that the hon Motsoaledi - as he said here in the House, by his own admission – held open the door for members after I had ordered that they be closed, and therefore contravened the Rules. The Minister in this House subsequently apologised for this, which I believe was fitting.
Hon members, in the same vein I therefore want to put on record, as the hon Dlamini-Zuma indicated, that she did not push the door. Indeed, neither her nor the hon Holomisa pushed the door. The hon Motsoaledi had opened the door. So, I want to put that on report so that there is no misreading or misconceptions of what happened.
Also, there have been matters that have been raised with regard to the members of the DA who allegedly were said to have left the House as well when the doors were supposed to have been closed. I just want to say to hon members: We will again look at
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that matter in terms of the footage and come back and rule accordingly. I therefore want to say to hon members: Indeed, I thank the members, particularly for appreciating the decision that had to be made at that time and for the hon Motsoaledi to also accept his own transgression in respect of our Rules. Thank you, hon members.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: I’m not challenging your ruling or commenting on it. I just want to be specific about which Holomisa you are talking about. It was not my leader. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! You were here in the House earlier on and the matter was clearly dealt with, so that can’t be a point of order.
Vote No 1 – Presidency – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
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[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 3 – Communications – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 4 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs – put.
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Division demanded.
The House divided.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): A division being called, I will ask for the bells to be rung for two seconds. Order.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes.
Dr C P MULDER: I rise on a point of order. My point of order is: I think you are supposed to make the bells to be rung for less than 15 seconds, in terms of Rule 1121. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Correctly, the hon member is right, but I went with the popular Vote which was expressed by members earlier on. So, that was a deviation we will ensure that we stick by the rules. Are all members on their allocated seats? [Interjections.] I would like to remind members that they
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may only Vote on their allocated seats. When requested to do so members must simply indicate their Vote by pressing the appropriate button below the yes, no or abstain signs. If any member inadvertently presses the wrong button the member may thereafter press the correct button. The last button pressed will be recorded as the member’s Vote when the voting session is closed by the Chair. Order, hon members. The Question before the House is that Vote No 4 be agreed to. Are all members in their allocated seats? Voting will now commence.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 5 – Home Affairs – put.
Division demanded.
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The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 6 – International Relations and Cooperation – agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters and Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 7 – National Treasury – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
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Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 8 – Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation – agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put.
Division demanded.
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The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 11 – Public Works – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
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Vote No 12 – Statistics South Africa – agreed to.
Vote No 13 – Women – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 14 – Basic Education – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 15 – Higher Education and Training – put.
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Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 16 — Health — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
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Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 17 — Social Development — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 18 — Correctional Services — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
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[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 19 — Defence and Military Veterans — agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Vote No 20 — Independent Police Investigative Directorate — agreed to.
Vote No 21 — Justice and Constitutional Development — agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 22 — Office of the Chief Justice and Judicial Administration — agreed to.
Vote No 23 — Police — put.
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Division demanded
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 24 — Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries — agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 25 — Economic Development — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
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[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 26 — Energy — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
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Vote No 27 — Environmental Affairs — agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No — 28 Labour — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 29 — Mineral Resources — put
Division demanded.
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The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 30 — Science and Technology — agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Vote No 31 — Small Business Development — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
Question agreed to.
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Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 32 — Telecommunications and Postal Services — agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters, Inkatha Freedom Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 33 — Tourism — agreed to (Economic Freedom Fighters dissenting).
Vote No 34 — Trade and Industry — agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
Vote No 35 — Transport — put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]
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Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 36 – Water and Sanitation – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 37 – Arts and Culture – agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
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Vote No 38 – Human Settlements – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 39 – Rural Development and Land Reform – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
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Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to
Vote No 40 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Vote accordingly agreed to
Schedule put.
Division demanded.
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[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Schedule accordingly agreed to.
ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Question put.
Bill read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Economic Freedom Fighters and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
SPECIAL APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Report)
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There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 198 [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
NOES – 93 [TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
SPECIAL APPROPRIATION BILL
WEDNESDAY, 28 NOVEMBER 2018
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(First Reading debate)
Ms Y N PHOSA: Chairperson, hon Minister of Finance in absentia, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen; the 2018 Special Appropriations Bill was tabled for consideration by the Standing Committee on Appropriations, on the 24th November 2018 and the committee’s report there on was adopted on the 27th November 2018. The Bill is requesting the committee to appropriate an additional amount of money for the Department of Public Enterprises to settle the maturing debt obligations for South African Airways state owned company, whilst the aviation industry remains a volatile business and the SAA continues to struggle in a very competitive market, we have no choice, I repeat we have no choice but to allocate the R5 billion that the SAA needs, immediately!
Funding the maturing debt obligation and supporting a turn around strategy for the business is a significantly better option than withholding funding and facing all the outstanding the guaranteed debt maturing at once. During discussion with the
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Department of Public Enterprises, the Board and the Management of SAA, it became crystal clear that unsustainable past practices resulted in the current crisis, therefore given this historical debt and the need for a state owned airline, we will have to give further financial support, but this has to be limited and it has to faced out.
Crucially it has to be linked to rigorous condition that SAA significantly improves the implementation of its turn around strategy. Among these conditions, we would like to see a significant reduction in wastage, mismanagement and corruption, as well as substantial improvement in its finances. The National Treasury and the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation have to monitor the effective implementation of this condition and report to Parliament regularly on this.
We need to end lost making routes, consolidate profit making routes, rationalise the fleet, rationalise the SAA and SA Express, acquire the necessary skills and improve public relations etcetera. The hope will bring to fellow South
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Africans, is that the presentations by SAA and SA Express indicated that number of initiatives are already being applied by both these companies that will result in a turnaround to profitability.
For SAA the board has set 2021 as target for returning the business to operate profitably, while South African Express indicated that they will be able to return to a profit during the 2019 financial year, we have been assured by the Board of SAA and SA Express that they have started strengthening the management teams in the two businesses by ensuring that key positions are filled by aviation specialist. With SAA providing a valuable link between our economy and that of our neighbours in Africa, as well as other countries, we have a corresponding duty to protect the skills and good will inherent in the revered history of the our flag career. SAA needs to remain a state owned airline, I repeat it needs remain a state owned airline and it must be not shut down, because of its importance to our trade and industrial policies, as well as our goal of being a developmental state.
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A privatised SAA will simple pursue profits relentlessly, dismissed workers freely and will have no interest in the state developmental goal. Selling SAA will also contribute to us giving away our sovereignty. We pray that it must not happen. We fully support the President and the Minister on the strategic equity partner and other public private partnership such as management partnership, service partnerships, and secondment from private sector and others.
In conclusion, we strongly believe that by investing in the much needed R5 billion as requested in this Special Appropriation Bill, we will not only protect the balance sheet of the SAA but that of our country. We must the best interest of country at heart. Strong and adequately funded state owned enterprise is not a luxury; it is a fundamental precondition for fro economic growth and sustainable development. It is the corners stone for economic health and one of the first places where the rating agencies will look at, when assessing our policies and actions.
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It will also keep the wolf from the door. All the stakeholders that came to brief the committee on this Special Appropriation Bill we thank them so much and thank you for bringing insights that have enable us to understand and be able to support this Bill from an informed position. I would like to thank the hard working staff. The ANC supports the Bill and please don’t forget, it is only the ANC that you must trust. I thank you.
Mr R A LEES: Mr Chairman and hon Minister, where is the hon Minister? He’s gone. Oh, there is the hon Minister, but where is the other one who was talking about mirages earlier. Well, the SA Airways, SAA, is not a mirage, but it’s a reality. And in fact it should be parked in some distant hanger in Limpopo wrapped in shrink-wrap rather than trying to use our money.
The SA Airways has, as a result of political interference, poor management and rampant corruption, consumed R31,4 billion in bailouts that could have been used to stimulate the economy and to create jobs for South Africans. There have been bailouts of R0,7 billion in 2007; R1,6 billion in 2010; and a staggering
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R10 billion in 2017. Now SAA wants yet another R5 billion.
None - I repeat- none of this huge amount of R5 billion will be used to buy new aircraft or even to pay for a month or two jet’s fuel or salaries. All of the R5 billion will go straight to the banks and financial institution houses who have already lent the R5 billion to SAA, and SAA has already spent the R5 billion.
There will be nothing left for SAA to use to fund the further losses they expect for the rest of the financial year. In reality, SAA are extorting R5 billion from service delivery to poor South Africans.
Banks and other financial institutions comprising ABSA, Ashburton, FirstRand, Investec, Momentum Group Limited, MMI, Nedbank, Sanlam and Standard Bank have been complicit in this extortion. They lent R5 billion to SAA knowing full well that SAA were running at massive losses and have no way of repaying the banks by 30 November. In the six months to the end of September, SAA had already racked up losses of R2,2 billion and they forecast a loss of R5,3 billion for the current financial
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year.
What Parliament should do now is to force the banks and other financial institutions who have learnt the R5 billion irresponsibly to call the government guarantees that underwrite the loans in. Let the banks and financial houses face the public exposure for their irresponsible lending. Now we are told that SA will be forced into liquidation if they do not receive another R3,5 billion before the end of March.
Now we are told that SAA will be forced into liquidation if they do not receive another R3,5 billion before the end of March. We were told that borrowing this additional R3,5 billion from the banks was not possible as the banks required additional commitments. These commitments are presumably more unilateral letters of commitment from the Finance Minister like the one that Minister Nene issued in March 2018. This letter of commitment was clearly the basis on which banks and finance houses made the irresponsible loans of R5 billion.
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If the banks are not an option to provide the R3,5 billion in cash required to keep SAA flying in the thunderstorm, then what are the options to provide the R3,5 billion to SAA to prevent a crash landing. Unless the Finance Minister gets his way to shut down SAA, which seems unlikely given the smackdown that he received from President Ramaphosa, there are two clear options that the ANC government are likely to consider. The one option would be to embark upon yet another dodgy section 16 of the Public Finance Management Act payment of the R3,5 billion directly to SAA from the National Revenue Fund. This would follow the precedence set by the then Minister of Finance, Malusi Gigaba who made a pretence that SAA funding requirement was an emergency matter in order to activate section 16. The second option would be to secretly approach the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, to provide a loan to SAA in the same way that the PIC pulled Eskom back from the brink in early 2018. Given the controversy surrounding the PIC and the appointment of an acting chief executive officer, CEO, such a move to raid the funds of pensioners to save SAA would simply be immoral.
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Right now, SAA is insolvent and is trading recklessly. Under the present circumstances it will not be possible for the board and management to stand any chance of nursing SAA back to profitability. They are spending all their time jumping from one funding crisis to the next with the false hope that South Africans will be happy to provide the R21 billion that SAA say they have to have in order to possibly, with no guarantees given, return SAA to profitability.
Apparently, the Auditor-General has refused to accept that SAA is a going concern. Consequently, the SAA annual report that should have been tabled in Parliament by the end of September has still not been tabled. But even if Parliament approves the R5 billion bailout it will still not make SAA a going concern. In order for SAA to be a going concern it needs to be able to trade for 12 months. This is not the case as SAA needs another R3,5 billion just to enable it to trade until the end of the current financial year on 31 March 2019.
The SA Airways cannot continue to drain desperately needed money
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for poor South Africans. A line must now be drawn in the sand. The liability to the taxpayer must now be limited to the foolish government guarantees of R16,8 billion issued and not a cent more must be taken.[Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr T RAWULA: Chairperson, anybody who has a basic understanding of economics knows that for a nation and its economy to develop for the benefit of its people, in particular the poor, state- owned entities must play a leading role. Over a 40-year period the Chinese experienced unprecedented economy growth and development and so 800 million people lifted out of poverty.
From state-owned banks which supply capital and credit, state- owned manufacturers have turned China into a global manufacturing hub to state-owned technology firms which over a ten-year period have managed to catch up with the United States in the development and manufacturing of high technology. It is state-owned companies that have been central to China’s historic economic development. China is just one of the many examples across both developed and developing world.
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But currently in the Department of Public Enterprises there is concerted effort led by Minister Pravin Gordhan to slowly collapse our state-owned enterprises, SOEs, so that they can be privatised and sold off to his friends and masters like the Ruperts, Oppenheimers and others. That is why he has began a process of purging SOE boards of black executives firing individuals without following any due process and replacing them with whites from the private sector who facilitate the very collapse of SOEs they have been assigned to manage. The SA Airways, SAA, must be saved and the EFF supports the decision to appropriate an extra R5 billion of the National Revenue Fund to settle debts owed by SAA.
But it is extremely concerning that conditional to this
R5 billion appropriations are the requirements that the Minister of Finance, who has been unclear of whether SAA should be privatised or not, imposes various conditions on SAA before and after R5 billion has been transferred. Imposing conditions is not necessary unusual but if one combine the talk of privatisation and the clear intent to privatise all SOEs shown
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by the Minister of Public Enterprise, these conditions are extremely important to be considered. The question we should all be asking ourselves is what are the conditions that the National Treasury is imposing on SAA. As the EFF we have clearly stated that SAA must be saved, stabilised and once again be made profitable.
The narrative we are sold by many on my right and some on the left that states are inherently incapable of running SOEs is not true. It is incorrect. The fact that South Africa has had unfortunate leadership does not create an impression that there is not a single state that is capable of running SOEs efficiently. All you need is the focus and competent leadership that will be able to come up with a proper turnaround strategy and ensure that our SOEs are saved. Stop this madness that you are fed by some sited here. [Interjections.] I don’t want to mention names but the likes of the DA.
How can this be done? It is through strategic partnership with global airline that can provide capital, technical and
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governance capacity and bring about the necessary stability. But this equity must remain a minority shareholder. [Time expired.] The majority stake owned by the state should not be owned by government department but other state-owned enterprises.
IsiXhosa:
Abantu baseMzantsi Afrika.
Mr M HLENGWA: House Chairperson, the time has come for South Africa to say to SA Airways, SAA, “mene, mene, tekel, upharsin” [the writing is on the wall.]
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. We have been bailing SAA out day in and day out and, with every bailout, they slide further and further into failure.
This bailout that is being requested today amounts to nothing more than this Parliament being expected to throw financial solutions at non-financial problems. On the back of that we are
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expected to approve a bailout of SAA when it has been unable to submit its financial report to this Parliament for the past three years. How do we then give a bailout blindly, when we are not privy to the nitty gritties of SAA’s state of health?
This lack of transparency in itself causes the suspicion that this is not a bailout in good faith.
The turnaround strategy that we have been told about and have been told about and probably will be told about is another case of persistent déjà vu.
So, it’s time to bite the bullet. It’s time for us to bail out the citizens of South Africa from the ANC, bail them out from VAT, bail them out from corruption, bail them out from escalating fuel prices, and bail them out from e-tolls. The only way to do that is to vote out the incompetent ANC, at whose hands SAA has collapsed. SAA generates revenue of R31 billion every year on average, but its expenditure stands at
R33 billion. Logic tells you that you need to reprioritise your
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spending pattern for you to stay afloat and then set you on a trajectory of actually making a profit.
This bailout is on the back of the poor. It is not pro-poor. [Interjections.]
One hon member then there shouts ... talk about Ithala . [Interjections.] Oh, it is ANC leadership who looted Ithala!
So ...
IsiZulu:
... i-IFP noMtwana kaPhindangene ...
English:
... in good faith started Ithala, and you looted because that is what you do best. You are a bunch of looters. [Interjections.] It is evident. There are looters on the left, and looters on the right.
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And then you go and appoint Pearl Bhengu ...
Mr P D N MALOYI: Order! Order! Order! Order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Hlengwa, could you please take your seat. Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr P D N MALOYI: I am rising in terms of Rule 84. I think for the member to call us a bunch of looters is insulting and disrespectful. It cannot be accepted.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, did you refer to anyone in the House?
Mr M HLENGWA: I did not refer to anyone, hon House Chairperson. You can check Hansard. But if the shoe fits, then I can nothing about that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I will check Hansard and I will come back with a ruling.
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Mr M HLENGWA: You are most welcome to do so, hon House Chairperson. Thank you.
So, at the end of the day, the only solution – practical, sustainable and in the collective interests of our economy and the majority of our people – is to sell SAA. Swallow your pride and admit that you have failed, and rescue South Africans from your failures. Let’s sell SAA. The IFP cannot support this malicious bailout. Thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, yet another R5 billion for SAA. It is true that there has been mismanagement, corruption, fraud, and fruitless and wasteful expenditure in SAA. There has been flouting of Treasury regulations. It is a business which ended up with lenders being owed R16,7 billion. This has been happening over the years. The lenders are pushing the door, wanting their money. R5 billion would have made a dent in poverty and unemployment because it comes from somewhere.
Treasury has to sort it out so that we are able to bail SAA out once again.
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This is a classic example of an enterprise which has been badly managed for years, with no consequence management. Flouting of supply-chain management, SCM, policies has been at the order of the day. It is only now that we see that there is some kind of a turnaround strategy, but only R400 million has been received through that kind of a turnaround strategy. That is really not even a drop in the ocean, compared to what has happened in SAA.
Whereas we lack young, black pilots and technicians, now we have to bail out an enterprise out that has failed dismally.
The NFP wants to put it that we need an equity strategic partner in order to turn SAA around. We cannot afford to sell it. We must [Inaudible.] yet we must admit that that is the money for the poor. But we need a partner who will assist to resuscitate SAA.
SAA needs competent executives and directors, people with skills who can turn the enterprise around. Minister, we believe that we need to vigorously try every effort to ensure that we turn this
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enterprise around. It has been a waste and we need the right people to turn the enterprise around. We need that partner to turn SAA around. Thank you.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: House Chairperson, these blunders are going make us seem like we are suffering from ideological schizophrenia.
The issue here is very clear. As a social democratic party, we support the need to have SOEs in order to be able drive development decisively. But the problem now is that, if you listen to what is happening — privatise SAA, sell SAA — you are going to sell all the SOEs. What’s going to happen? It’s going to turn you into a Mickey Mouse government that cannot drive development.
Not only that, it will actually turn you into a government in office but not in power, with all the challenges of poverty, inequality that we need to address. But we can’t say to you, and continue to give you a blank cheque because, you see ...
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IsiXhosa:
... phaya emakhaya kukho la ngoma ithi: ngabula wen’unethemba liyatshon’ilanga! Ndiqinisekile ukuba la masela ebebe imali kwaSAA ayabhiyoza ngoku xa kufuneka sipasise izi-R5 yezigidi ngezigidi kuba kaloku ziza kungena emanxebeni, azisayi kuya nakuloo ndawo ebezifanele ukuba ziya kuyo.
English:
In fact, we already know that this R5 billion has already been spent. But I think what is important here for us in particular as the UDM is that we need to emphasise the point that we cannot keep on spending money on SOEs that waste and squander it every now and then without consequences, with impunity I should say. I mean, even if you look at your own report, this Appropriations Report, it says that SAA developed a turnaround strategy in 2013, and has since revised it due to limited success.
Yoh! Limited success! But you keep on bailing them out every year! It can’t be.
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But I think what is also important is the issue that ... you see, because you’re not running these SOEs properly, because you are not dealing with the governance issues and because most of the boards are actually divided along your factional lines in particular in the ruling party, you are failing to address the challenges that are faced by the SOEs in the long term. [Interjections.]
No, we know these things.
IsiXhosa:
Nicinga ukuba sihlala phi? Kaloku siyazazi ezi zinto kwaye siyathetha naba bantu. Yhini le!
English:
I think the other issue that you created ... [Inaudible.] ... remember this issue of ideological schizophrenia...
IsiXhosa:
... le ngxaki enisifaka kuyo ...
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English:
... is that, even things that looked at one point like neo- liberal utopianism, seem attractive, such as selling SOEs because you are not running the SOEs properly.
While we believe in supporting the importance of SOEs in driving economic development, we cannot unfortunately support this Special Appropriations Bill for one condition, because we do not believe that SAA will be able to spend the money properly, and because we are saying to you ... we are making a strong appeal to say, work very hard to try and turn around most of these SOEs.
We have seen that you have already started doing that, but we can’t give you a blank cheque before we’ve seen the results. Thank you very much.
IsiXhosa: Hlukanani nam.
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Mr W W WESSELS: Hon House Chair, once again this Special Appropriation is for the SA Airways, SAA, and we know more bailouts will tap the taxpayer and the poor in the very near future. Ironically, it is these very taxpayers and the poor who should be the true recipients of services emanating from these funds which instead are being used to fix unfixable state-owned entities, SOEs. There is nothing that the ANC government has touched which does not require a turnaround strategy. The ANC has taken South Africa’s economy, leaving us with an unemployment rate that is a ghastly violation of human rights.
Bailing out SOEs which have no going concern is insanity. No, hon Rawula, the SAA has not collapsed because of a concerted effort in order to obtain privatisation. That’s a conspiracy theory which is nonsense. It has collapsed because of socialist tendencies and policies. Why is the Ethiopian Airlines successful? It is because they installed commercial practices - practices of profitability; not these socialist policies of your government, Minister.
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To save the poor, to get South Africa out of a fiscal cliff ... it is to end the bailouts and to stop what is currently happening. These types of bailouts should stop. Privatisation should occur.
Over and above the destruction, the immorality of this state of affairs is underscored by the scandalous and continuous billion rand bailouts of SOEs whose leaders and chief executive officers, CEOs, pay themselves lucrative salaries and bonuses, while not a single cent can be appropriated to set at least one injustice straight, and that is paying back the money stolen from Transnet’s pensioners.
Nothing is done to save our rural economy which is facing electricity blackouts due to municipalities’ outstanding debt to Eskom.
Hon Phosa, the ANC cannot be trusted. It is the ANC looters who destroyed our national airline. I thank you.
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Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair. The Special Appropriation adjustment, as many speakers have indicated, relates to an amount of five billion immediately required to recapitalise the SAA.
Now, this follows looting and plundering that we’ve seen at the SAA over the years, with the SAA showing a net loss of
5,7 billion for the 2017-18 financial year. The present year’s financials are not yet available due to the going concern questions from the Auditor-General, AG.
The ACDP does however wish to commend the new board on its attempts to stabilise the airline. We met with them yesterday. However, it will be implementing what we understand to be the 14th turnaround strategy. At the same time, travelling ... I travel a lot on the SAA ... we wish to commend those pilots of the highest standard, the cabin crew, and honest staff members and management who on a daily basis try to keep the brand flying.
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Regrettably however, we know there are dishonest staff with theft and fraud on the increase. The SAA briefing yesterday refers to theft of utility loading devices. The AG also indicated that the existence of certain inventory could not be verified. This is disgraceful!
The previous board commissioned no less than four forensic investigations on a number of operations. Criminal and civil action must be instituted to implement the findings of those investigations and we are pleased our briefing yesterday indicated that the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, is assisting and the Hawks are setting up a team of specialist investigators.
Maybe the SIU will do like they indicated yesterday to Parliament ... with the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC. They are bringing applications to have previous directors declared delinquent directors in terms of section 162 of the Companies Act. That’s a step that we can take.
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The question can rightly be asked, how much more must be given to bailout the SAA and will it ever be brought back to a profit- making business? When I asked yesterday how another African airline, Ethiopian airways, made a profit, we were told that the policy environment under which the airline operates was vastly different. What does that actually mean? Well, it means that black economic empowerment, BEE, requirements for procurement results in the airline paying up to a 50% premium for the items it purchases. How can that ever be justifiable if it’s true and how can we expect the airline to run at a profit?
However, it must be noted that the needs are a capital injection of 21 billion over the next term ... five billion today. They need a further 9,2 billion in short-term loans and 7,5 billion in working capital ... 3,5 billion by December. These are staggering figures. [Time expired.]
Mr N E GCWABAZA: House Chairperson, hon members, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers ...
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IsiZulu:
... uMnyango wezaMabhizinisi Omphakathi kanye nabaphathi abasha benkampani kahulumeni yamabhanoyi, i-SAA babikele ikomidi kulelisonto eledlule ukuthi umsebenzi asebewenzile unezinkomba zokuthi lenkampani izobuyela esimweni esihle sokusebenza kanye nesimo esihle sezezimali. Labaphathi banobuchwepheshe bokukhulisa lenkampani, namaqhinga abawasebenzisayo ayaveza ukuthi le nkampani iyobe isizimele ngokwesikhwama sezimali eminyakeni emithathu kusuka ngowe-1920.
I-ANC iyakuxhasa ukuthi le nkampani inikezwe lemali yezigidi ezinhlanu ukuze abaphathi bebhodi kanye nabaphathi abakhulu [executive] bakhokhe ingxenye yalesikweletu esikhona bese beqhubeka nokuvusa futhi bathuthukise i-SAA ize ibe yinkampani kahulumeni ephonsa esivivaneni sokuthuthukiswa komnotho nokwakhiwa kwemisebenzi.
English:
This year South Africa signed the Continental Free Trade Area agreement which is a mechanism for promoting economic
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integration and for expanding trade across the African continent. Reliable air transport is vital and the SAA must play a visible role in the movement of people and goods across the African continent. Also, tourism is a growing industry and the SAA should become a big player in transporting tourists into the country.
Therefore, the SAA must be given the financial support that it needs. The airline companies that are owned by the state, put together, employ 9 784 workers. The SAA alone employs over
6 000 workers. The ANC supports every effort that seeks to protect existing jobs in the SAA and in the SA Express, and to create new jobs.
What is frightening is the dangerous chorus from the DA and the IFP. [Interjections.] The dangerous chorus has four reasons:
Firstly, these two organisations are saying to government, sell the SOEs to those who are already rich;
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Secondly, stop the Black Industrialist Programme and kill the small, medium and micro-sized enterprises, SMMEs, whose business must be supported by these state-owned companies, SOCs;
Thirdly, stop the state from playing a role in growing the economy, creating jobs and reducing inequalities, using the state SOCs; and
Fourthly, retrench thousands of workers employed by the SOCs.
Scarier still ... [Interjections.] ... is that the DA objects to all fund allocations to the economic cluster departments. As we have heard them today, they object, they oppose. This is a dangerous message that the DA and the IFP are boldly giving to our people. This destructive message must be defeated and the ANC will do everything in its power to continue to support the SMMEs so that they can be used to grow the economy, create jobs, reduce inequalities and ensure that the goals of the National Development Plan are achieved.
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It is not surprising that today the DA is attacking the banks for partnering with government. They have not accepted that the whole private sector is supporting President Ramaphosa’s initiative to drive investment in South Africa’s economy. The ANC cannot ... [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon House Chair, I just to say before we start: To us, Pravin Gordhan is a time-tested leader, who has led us for years, during the most adverse times. He passed the test; so we will not be misled by kids with smoke evidence. There must come something with concrete evidence; no stories. That is what we say about Pravin.
Again, I just want to say these facts, just to deal with this mirage again. I just want to say these facts and I am challenging all of you who say these facts are not true, so that you can test and come with your contrary facts: In SA Airways, as we speak, all domestic routes, except Port Elizabeth, are profitable at gross profit margin level. [Interjections.] What does this mean?
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They are able to cover aircraft leasing cost, pilot salaries, cabin crew salaries, fuel, food, navigation and landing costs. [Interjections.] These are facts that are there. You can have your opinion but not your facts. There’s a concentration on Port Elizabeth which is still struggling. [Interjections.] Now that the margins have returned, SA Airways is increasing frequencies in the domestic market: Johannesburg to East London and Johannesburg to Cape Town routes to claw back the market share.
There is clarity about balancing pursuit of market share with pursuit of profitability. These are facts. Over the years, SA Airways has been blindly chasing market share at the expense of profitability, leading to major loses. This balance has to be found. All regional routes are profitable, except Entebbe, which is being attended to. These are fact; not opinions.
The London route is profitable for four months in a row since consolidation demand into a single flight daily. Now, there is an exploration of growth initiatives. The rest of international routes have been negatively impacted by oil price and poor
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performance by SA Airways Technical, affecting aircraft availability and schedule integrity, leading to higher costs of operations.
Oil price has moved with range, sub 60 billion a barrel. If it stays within the range over the next five months, there should be ability to claw back loses on the first half of the year in international market. With outsourcing of heavy checks in wide- body aircrafts, SA Airways now has a right fleet availability for international market.
Procurement benefits are being realized. As we speak now, R400 million a year to-date has been achieved and there is an aim of targeting R2,8 billion in procurement savings over the next three years. [Interjections.] This is not a sleeping institution; this is an institution at work! SA Airways Technical operational people are in the match. That is the argument we are making. [Interjections.]
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Now, these are the facts. You can come here with your political mirage ... [Interjections.] Since being unbundled from Transnet Group in 2007, SA Airways has for most part been loss making – that is agreed – largely due to its poor operating model, in actual case, aviation skills, lack of board and management ...
Ms M S KHAWULA: On point of order, Sihlalo!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is a point of order, hon member?
IsiZulu:
Ms M S KHAWULA: Ngabe umfundisi ukuthi usesele yedwa abazalwane sebehambile? Kusho ukuthi ayikho lento ayikhulumayo, makavale isonto.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is not a point of order, really! Continue, hon Deputy Minister!
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: That is why I have been missing you these past two days. A new board management team was appointed at SA Airways towards the end of 2017, while under the shareholder oversight of National Treasury, and close collaboration over the past year has produced a firm basis for sustainable turnaround of the airline with initial positive results already emerging. There is a series of green shoes here. These are facts; not opinions.
Currently, most domestic and regional routes are profitable, while greater efforts are being made as part of the turnaround strategy. To convert loss making in international routes to profitability, in this regard, a number of initiatives are in place. I have already articulated those. Now, what are we saying?
Therefore, in the 2018 MTBPS, the Minister stated, I quote:
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To support a sustainable reconfiguration of our airline portfolio in 2018-19, government will provide additional funding for SA Airways and SA Express.
SA Express does not currently generate sufficient income to cover its operating expenses. Therefore, funding has been allocated to SA Express to cover the airline’s government- guaranteed obligations which amount to R1,2 billion. With this allocation, funds will not be utilised to repay any portion of debt owed by SA Express to Transnet. SA Express guarantees will be reduced in line with the quantum of recapitalisation. Monthly progress reports on the use of the funds must be submitted to the Department of Public Enterprises and the National Treasury.
For timorous preparation of 2019 Budget, the Department of Public Enterprise should present a strategy: For approval by the Cabinet, of the optimal corporate structure for the state-owned airlines, which should include options that will be pursued for the introduction of the strategic equity partner, for the disposal of noncore asset and to submit comprehensive plan on
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the SA Express that outlines the airline’s strategy to reduce its reliance on the government financial support.
The point I want to make is that the facts at our disposal ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Angisiyo intanga yakho! [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The facts at our disposal say: If you were to sell SA Airways tomorrow, you have to pay R60 billion. We are challenging a contrary view. We are not articulating opinion; we are articulating facts. The money you needed since last year until it is profitable at 2021 is R21 billion.
Do your comparison and look at the developments and the green shoots now. Ask yourself: If were to look at these facts and ignore the mirage; you can see the path where SA Airways is going, ... [Time expired.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
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Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Special Appropriation Bill be read a first time.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[BELLS RUNG FOR FIVE MINUTES]
Voting:
[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES]
Question agreed to.
Special Appropriation Bill accordingly read a first time.
Question put: That the Special Appropriation Bill be read a second time.
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Special Appropriation Bill accordingly read a second time (Democratic Alliance, Inkatha Freedom Party, Economic Freedom Fighters and United Democratic Movement dissenting).
Business of the day concluded.
The House adjourned at 19:29