Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 24 May 2017

Summary

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Minutes


WEDNESDAY, 24 MAY 2017
 


PROCEEDINGS OF MINI PLENARY SESSION OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY


Members of the mini-plenary session met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 16:25.


Mr A F Mahlalela, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.


APPROPRIATION BILL


Debate on Vote No 10 — Public Service and Administration:


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Minister

for the Public Service and Administration, Ms Dipuo Letsatsi-Duba, hon members, chairperson of the Presidential Remuneration Review Commission, Justice Kenneth Mthiyane, chairperson of the Public Service Commission, PSC, Adv Richard Sizani, chairperson of the Government Employees Medical Scheme, Gems, Ms Nontobeko Ntsinde, Director-General for the Department of Public Service and


Administration, Director-General for the PSC, Director-General of the National School of Government, executive director of the Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI, the principal officer of Gems, distinguished guests, and I want to acknowledge the following traditional leaders — Rose Mpambo, Hosi Mathonsi, Inkosi Tembe and Kgosi Sole from the North West [Applause.], fellow South Africans and hon Chairperson, we stand here today with much humility to present to this august House Budget Vote No 10 with hope, which we believe is going to deepen our transformation of the broad Public Service, so that it may correctly be wired to address the pressing problems confronted by the masses of our people. We present this budget today, following in the footsteps of the longest-serving president general of our revolutionary movement, the ANC. In honour of president Oliver Reginald Tambo and during the centenary since his birth, we want to dedicate this Vote to the hundreds of thousands of public servants who have chosen the path to emulate his selfless life of service to our people.


It is common knowledge that president Tambo and President Mandela chose a life of selfless service despite the attractions and full potential of a more prosperous and self-centred life. Reflecting on this chosen path, in the seminal life story of President Nelson
 


Mandela in the Long Walk to Freedom, years later president Tambo said:


For years we worked side by side in the offices near the Courts. To reach our desks each morning, Nelson and I ran the gauntlet of patient queues of people overflowing from the chairs in the waiting-room into the corridors. ... when we started our law partnership, we had not been rebels against South African apartheid, our experiences in our offices would have remedied the deficiency. We had risen to professional status in our community, but every case in court, every visit to the prisons to interview clients, reminded us of the humiliation and suffering burning into our people.


It is this selfless dedication we wish to deepen and promote in the Public Service of today. It is this type of dedication, vigour and humility we intend to ignite further in our Public Service. We do so conscious that the majority of our people remain without a means of control over their own lives as they continue to be exploited only to fuel the engines of profit in servitude to white monopoly capital and global iterations.
 


Consequently, as we dedicate this Vote to the thousands of public servants dedicated to changing the material conditions of our people, we do so conscious that unless a radical socioeconomic transformation path is undertaken, those conditions will never improve. To paraphrase president OR Tambo‘s address to the International Labour Organisation in 1986, our economy cannot be reformed; our struggle has entered a phase which marks the final days of the white monopoly-dominated system.


To move us further in that phase we require a new, innovative, selfless and inspired type of Public Service, in the mould of our former president OR Tambo, all of which are in line with the principles of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa which, ―provide an effective, transparent, accountable, and coherent government ...‖


Although this budget seeks to address our radical socioeconomic transformation agenda in the longer term, it does adhere to our medium-term aspirations as contained in the National Development Plan, NDP. The NDP builds the foundation for an efficient, effective and development-orientated Public Service as part of a capable and developmental state which can facilitate and implement radical socioeconomic transformation.
 


In this regard, our strategic mandate as a portfolio is to create an enabling policy environment for the rest of the Public Service and also to support the effective implementation of these policies through, amongst others, the monitoring, training and promotion of innovation.


September this year also marks 20 years since the adoption of the Batho Pele principles and the White Paper on Transforming Public Service Delivery. During the adoption of these principles, the then Minister of Public Service and Administration, Dr Zola Skweyiya, reflected that:


One of government‘s most important tasks is to build a Public Service capable of meeting the challenge of improving the delivery of public services to the citizens of South Africa. Access to decent public services is no longer a privilege to be enjoyed by a few; it is now the rightful expectation of all citizens, especially those previously disadvantaged. The transforming of our Public Service is to be judged, rightly, by the practical difference people see in their everyday lives.


During this financial year, we will therefore adhere to these principles and related public policies ... to test ... presented by
 


this first democratic Minister for Public Service and Administration, with a view of improving on them and aligning it to our reinvigorated agenda. As we review this, we will also take lessons from hardworking public servants such as the winner of the fourth national Batho Pele Excellence Awards, Ms Thulisile Mathenjwa. Ms Mathenjwa, can you please stand up? [Applause.] Thank you. We want to take this opportunity to thank and appreciate her for walking in the footsteps of president OR Tambo and becoming an embodiment of a public servant that South Africa deserves. Ms Mathenjwa works in one of the most important, but also neglected sectors that can accelerate our radical economic transformation agenda. This is the agricultural sector. Millions of women occupy this sector and go unnoticed, and we need to find ways to further empower such women, whilst ensuring that shared and inclusive growth in that and other sectors is done in our economy.


The CPSI is a cross-cutting facility of government aimed at entrenching and driving the culture and practice of innovation in the public sector to address service-delivery challenges.
Consequently, as the Public Service Act provides, it is responsible for the establishment of norms and standards relating to transformation, reform, innovation and any other matter to improve
 


the effectiveness and efficiency of the Public Service and service delivery to the public.


In advancing this, the CPSI will partner with various institutions within the health, safety and security, and education spheres in order to collaborate on the development of prototypes, as well as to nurture and sustain the Public Service innovation and learning culture. These collaborations will include the development and implementation of a multimedia innovation centre as well as the innovation journal.


Work will also continue in relation to the ever-popular Public Sector Innovation Awards as well as the Annual Public Sector Innovation Conference. Allow me to recognise Ms Ramadimetja Catherine Masekoameng who represents one of the sixteen 2016 awardees of the Public Sector Innovation Awards. May you rise up? That‘s Ms Masekoameng. [Applause.] Ms Masekoameng comes from Limpopo‘s Treasury revenue enhancement strategy project which was awarded the coveted 2015 innovator of the year title. This project is an example of how government departments can refocus their revenue generations in the current dwindling equitable share.
 


Going forward, we will also pay greater attention to governance and accountability measures of the CPSI with the aim of rendering greater effectiveness and broader participation, an area of work which the Deputy Minister will elaborate on.


Our ethos is one which is guided by the Constitution and it implores us to demonstrate that we belong to our communities; we serve our communities; and we care about our communities. To this end we must ensure that our government belongs to all our people and it is in service to our people wherever they are. It is against this background that I want to share with you some of the projects we have embarked on, like the Back to school campaign, where we visited a number of schools in KwaZulu-Natal, North West, Limpopo and Mpumalanga. We were accompanied by our strategic partners from the private sector as part of the Public-Private Partnership that sponsored different items which were donated to identified and deserving historically disadvantaged learners in different schools.


Through the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, Foundation, we awarded two top matriculants with bursaries. Those are the financially deserving ones. One is doing Accountancy at the University of Johannesburg while another one is doing Social Economic Development at the University of Mpumalanga.

In Mpumalanga province, in partnership with the MTN Foundation, we donated 11 multimedia centres; 1 000 bicycles and backpacks, and related accessories, including talking books, to schools. The MTN Foundation has also signed an agreement with the contractor to construct an information communications technology, ICT, laboratory at Tshimbupfe Secondary School this financial year. I would like to acknowledge Mrs Kusile Mthunzi-Hairwadzi, the general manager of the MTN Foundation. May you please rise? [Applause.]


We also donated school shoes to nine identified schools throughout the country, through the Professor Alfred Nevhutanda Development Foundation. In absentia, we would like to appreciate one civil servant, Mr Khwezi Ngwenya, who is a model public servant and an employee of the Estate Agency Affairs Board, a parastatal of the Department of Human Settlements, who donated out of his pocket a sizeable number of pairs of shoes to schools in the KwaZulu-Natal province. We call upon all other public servants and other prominent persons to emulate this exemplary citizen. We also encourage other corporate citizens and foundations to partner with us in our initiatives to serve our people.


We also believe that these contributions will go a long way to assisting those in need to make their lives better. We have the
 


responsibility to inculcate the ethos of service and volunteerism as a way of life for all public servants. Everyday must be filled with service and care for our people. Let us not wait until the next Mandela Day or another calendar day for us to encourage an active Public Service and an active citizenry.


In moving forward together we amended the Public Service Regulations on the 1st of August last year, so that we put in place policies and regulations to curb corruption in the Public Service. Through these amendments, these regulations stipulate clearly that public servants must not conduct business with any organ of state or be a director of a public or private company conducting business with an organ of state. Public servants were also informed accordingly that they should cease doing business with organs of state or resign from the Public Service.


The regulations also introduced transitional arrangements for the implementation of regulation 13(c), which provided Public Service employees with a period of six months - which ended on 31 January 2017 - to relinquish their interests in businesses involved in conducting business with an organ of state or to resign from the Public Service. Employees who opted to resign from such businesses were required in terms of the transitional arrangements to provide
 

proof of resignation to their heads of department by the end of February 2017. I want to report to the House that the majority of public servants have complied with that.


In this regard, the National Treasury also manages the Central Supplier Database, CSD, empowered centrally to register suppliers who want to conduct business with the state. As such, it provides a list of names of individuals and businesses conducting business with the state or their departments. By comparing data from the Personnel Salary, Persal, system with that on the CSD, Public Service employees intending to conduct business with the state, as well as those that are already conducting business with the state, are identified. In January 2017, we forwarded letters to all executive authorities, identifying those officials that are registered on the CSD and those who are conducting business with an organ of state, to create awareness on the transitional arrangements.


In March this year, we also matched the CSD information with Persal. A total number of 11 516 public officials were found to be registered on the CSD and were therefore in a position to perform business with an organ of state or with government. As at the end of February and for the period 1 October 2016 to 28 February 2017, a total of 2 566 employees who were registered on the CSD have
 

resigned from the Public Service. We are currently following up with the department to assess if there are any remaining public servants who have not resigned from the companies they are associated with.
To assist with the implementation of regulation 13, we approved two directives:


Firstly, on 13 September 2016, a directive on other remunerative work outside the employee‘s employment in the relevant department as contemplated in section 30 of the Public Service Act, 1994, was approved. The directive came into effect on 1 November 2016. The directive clarifies that, although employees may obtain permission for remunerative work outside their employment, such permission shall not be used as a basis for conducting business with an organ of state.


Secondly, in January 2016, a directive on conducting business with an organ of state was approved to clarify the definition of an organ of state, and excluding certain activities that are not considered to be conducting business with an organ of state, for example teaching activities at universities.


With effect from 1 February 2017, National Treasury also amended the registration process for prospective suppliers to be registered on
 


the CSD in order to prohibit Public Service employees from being registered. During the registration process, all suppliers are matched against Persal to establish if they are Public Service employees or not. If a match is obtained, the person is flagged and is then required to provide proof that he or she is not a Public Service employee. We view misconduct in a serious light and will continue to strengthen measures for effective consequence management in the Public Service.


As part of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework‘s outcome 12, government has also identified the management of discipline as one of the priority indicators. The intention is to reduce the period it takes to resolve disciplinary cases from the baseline of 134 days in April 2015 to 90 days by April 2019. Of the 10 754 cases analysed, as at 31 March 2017 the median number of days taken to resolve disciplinary cases was 61 days. Notably, six of the nine provincial administrations were below 90 days. The median for national departments was 91 days.


Work will therefore continue to support departments that are above the median. Furthermore, the department has established a pool of experts to support departments by making available chairpersons, investigators and employer representatives to be used in
 

disciplinary hearings. In this regard, the department has received

38 requests for assistance and 97 experts were assigned.


A major concern for government is the role of departments in capturing, updating and maintaining required information with regard to discipline management on the Persal system. Steps are going to be put in place to ensure that all departments regularly capture and update information on Persal.


These are among the critical initiatives through which we seek to promote an integrity-driven Public Service, in the footsteps of OR Tambo. To complement these efforts, I want to report that last Friday the 19th we revived the National Anticorruption Forum, which is duly constituted by government, business and civil society to co- ordinate sectoral strategies in the fight against corruption. The PSC is assigned the secretariat responsibility of the forum.


These efforts will be complemented by further actions in relation to the vexing challenge of the nonsubmission of financial disclosure forms by the due date of 31 May. We are pleased to note the progress recorded during the 2016-17 financial year, wherein five provinces and 35 national departments achieved a 100% submission rate of financial disclosure forms. This is the highest submission rate by
 


both national and provincial departments since the inception of the Financial Disclosure Framework in 1999.


For the financial year ending 30 April 2016, 92% of senior management filed their disclosures on time. The introduction of the e-Disclosure, an electronic format of submitting financial disclosures, has assisted in increasing the compliance rate.


The PSC has finalised a framework for the promotion of the constitutional values and principles, and the evaluation of the performance of the Public Service against these values and principles. The framework therefore defines each principle, sets out the scope and content of each principle and proposes a number of performance indicators for each principle.


The PSC has also developed an evaluation tool to assess compliance with the values in the Public Service. The tool will therefore give a unique perspective on the Public Service, on whether we are adhering to and achieving the intended goals of the values on an outcome level and not merely ticking the compliance boxes with legislation.
 


Over the years, the PSC has actively monitored the extent to which the Public Service has succeeded in meeting the required employment equity targets. The PSC found that significant progress has been made in ensuring that equity in terms of race and gender is attended to. Despite this, it is our firm belief that more still has to be done in securing gender parity and women‘s leadership at all levels, particularly at the highest levels of the Public Service.


We have also noted the limited progress in achieving the disability equity target of two per cent. To advance this target we will seek active partnerships with organisations operating in the disability sector, particularly civil society and the labour movement, in line with Disabled People SA‘s motto of, Nothing about us, without us.


These efforts will also be complemented by the recommendation of the portfolio committee that the PSC conducts a follow up study to determine factors impeding government departments in achieving two per cent of people with disabilities and 50% in senior management in the Public Service, and make proposals for improvement. Without meeting these targets, our agenda for radical economic transformation and inclusive growth is under serious threat.
 


As we conduct this analysis and headcount, and determine where and at what level the women and people with disabilities are located, we will also pose the fundamental question of whether our department and indeed the Public Service at large is appropriately wired and designed to meet the department‘s specific mandates and our urgent objective for radical socioeconomic transformation. In doing so, we also continue with the ongoing engagements we have had with all our unions and stakeholders so that we may ensure a smooth and progressive process of capacitating the Public Service, whilst also taking on board as far as possible the concerns of labour, stakeholders and most importantly our citizens to whom we owe our very existence.


A fundamental consideration in the promotion of ethical conduct in the Public Service is the extent to which conflicts of interest that may exist between public servants‘ private interests and public duties are managed. Potential conflicts of interest are managed proactively through the Financial Disclosure Framework so as to avoid these from becoming actual conflicts of interest which can easily lead to corruption. Therefore, the primary function of the PSC is to scrutinise the financial disclosure forms received and to advise executive authorities on the prevalence of potential and actual conflicts of interest. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
 


Dr M B KHOZA: Chairperson, hon Minister, Ms Faith Muthambi, hon Deputy Minister, Depuo Lesatsi-Duba, hon members, let me also recognise Adv Sizani, the Chairperson of the Public Service Commission, officials, public servants of my country, fellow South Africans, sanibonani.


Hon Minister, I want to assure you that the committee that is overseeing your department is a very vibrant committee. It has considered the annual performance plan and it has seriously considered the budget that comes with it. It has adopted the budget. It has supported the budget.


In tabling the report of the portfolio committee responsible for overseeing the Department of Public Service and Administration which also houses the National School of Government, the Centre for Public Service Innovation and is responsible for receiving, processing and getting guidance from the reports of the Public Service Commission
... as this particular entity ... this particular commission is very important. The information that they collect is very important in strengthening the oversight function of the committee.

I would like you to allow me to contextualise the critical importance of the public service to our evolving participatory, people-centred and -driven constitutional democracy.


The public service is not driven by profit motives, but rather by service motives. However, it cares about the bottom line because we work with very limited financial resources, insufficient to meet the demands of our people. Yet, citizen satisfaction with our public services is not negotiable. This means public service and administration is not just about pushing papers, nor is it, as the Minister has already highlighted, just about ticking compliance boxes or frustrating our people.


We therefore need a public service that embraces an ethos of continuous quality improvement. Our people from all cultures, races, classes and gender orientations have two things that put a smile on their faces, namely quality and prosperity.


The National Development Plan 2030 states —


In a society with deep social and economic divisions, neither social nor economic transformation is possible without a capable and developmental state.
 


This extract can be found on page 408, Chapter 13 of the National Development Plan.


It is therefore within this context that the committee considered the Annual Performance Plan 2017-18 and resolved to support Budget Vote 10.


This department is the engine of government because, when all is said and done, what is government without those who are meant to implement its policies and programmes? The administration is therefore fundamentally important. It is actually key to turning political decisions into reality.


Whilst many departments have received budget cuts necessitated by the current very difficult economic environment, the Public Service and Administration‘s overall budget allocation is R897 million for 2017-18, compared to R779 million for the 2016-17 financial year.
This represents an increase of 15,3% in nominal terms.


It is important to note that an average of 48,2% of the department‘s total budget over the medium term is allocated to transfers and subsidies for the operations of the National School of Government, the Public Service Commission and the Centre for Public Service
 


Innovation. These departments provide public servants access to knowledge and skills, promote the principles of public administration and foster innovation in the public service.


The department‘s second-largest area of spending is the compensation of employees which accounts for 31,5% of the total budget over the medium term. The department has a staff complement of approximately
444 persons who work with personnel across government to strengthen the public service‘s contribution to national development.


The Budget Vote of the Department of Public Service and Administration is divided into six programmes that seek to achieve its mandate.


It is therefore a legitimate expectation, Minister, that we are expecting the department to deliver on its mandate because you received an increase when other departments did not. [Interjections.]


Hon members, we are living in the third industrial revolution, one that is extremely disruptive and very fast. It is an era of algorithms. It is also inevitable that we are entering yet another leg of the industrial revolution — one of artificial intelligence

and robotics. This places enormous pressure on the speed with which we deliver services on platforms that are consistent with the technological advances of our times.


It is important, hon members, to remember that, in 1994, we simply found the public service in a particular kind of configuration. We found that configuration there, and we simply continued with it as it we found it. But clearly, if we look at the trends and what is happening currently in terms of technological platforms, we really need to start to reconfigure the administration.


As such, Minister, we have had a very passionate engagement with the chairperson of the Public Service Commission. We think it is going to be absolutely important for them to also begin to look at the risks and whether the public service is adapting. The chances are that we may not be adapting and we may actually find ourselves in very difficult situations.


It is for this reason that Programme 2: Policy Development, Research and Analysis is very important to us. We would like it to be aligned with the technological advancement challenges of our time. The main purpose of this programme is to manage and oversee the formulation, development and review of policies, policy reform and transformation

programmes. It also manages research on and analysis of public service capacity, performance and reform by conducting productivity, accessibility and continuity studies, tracking trends in best practice in public administration discourse in order to enhance access to public services through feasibility and continuity studies. In 2016-17, the budget allocation for Programme 2 was  R28,3 million and, in 2017-18, the allocation is R34,4 million.


Inevitably, given our major concerns about government‘s ability to adjust and catch up with the effects of the third and fourth industrial revolutions, we applied our minds when we considered Programme 4: Government‘s Chief Information Officer. The purpose of the programme is to promote and manage the use of information communication technology as a strategic tool in the design and delivery of citizen-centred services within government by co- ordinating and consolidating public service information communication technology policies, strategies, costs, risk assessments, as well as ICT governance matters. The programme was introduced in order to develop, implement and monitor information communication technology policies and their norms and standards.
 

The budget allocation for Programme 4 accounts for a 2,39% share or R21,5 million of the total budget for 2017-18. In 2017-18, the allocation for Programme 4 increased by 13,76% in nominal terms.


These are the considerations that the committee took into account when it supported Budget Vote 10.


I know that the DA supports us but I don‘t know what happens to them when they come here! I had hoped that they would be consistent with the spirit of the committee. We discussed this; we agreed. [Interjections.] I don‘t know why you fear John so much! Hon Steenhuizen ... He‘s intimidating you! [Laughter.] You are so nice when you are with us, but once he is here in the room you change.


We are pleased with the progress of the National School of Government. The National School of Government is beginning to position itself. We were very concerned about it. There is a lot of money sitting in various departments, but that money is not necessarily assisting the school to grow. But we hope that, in the capable hands of Prof Levin, we are going to see this School of Government being a pioneer of excellence in government.

We are pleased with what we have been hearing. Unfortunately we don‘t have a lot of time, but they have been making steady progress, and I am very happy that we are beginning to rework their funding model.


The committee remains concerned, Minister, that this government — in these rapidly changing times when our needs are nowhere close to matching the availability of financial resources — is only injecting a total budget allocation of R34 million into the Centre for Public Service Innovation. Innovation is very important, especially for developing countries. If we are not going to be investing enough in innovation, we are really going to find ourselves being left out again, in the same way we were left out during the first and second industrial revolutions. If we are not going to innovate, we are going to be left out again.


It is for this reason, Minister, that we want to implore you to ensure that, as we enter this new cycle of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, we really have to make sure that we budget for innovation. It is not that we love the name. We‘ve been there, and we would like members to actually go the centre. It‘s absolutely impressive! The kinds of results they are already ... the kinds of benefits that we are already deriving from this Centre for

Innovation are really unbelievable, given their limited budget and budgetary constraints.


We have seen that they already beginning to save on costs. I mean, the blood issues ... Blood Bank things ... I mean ... I‘m not sure
... I don‘t know the terminology. Ms Thuli Radebe will be able to explain that.


But we have seen that they are beginning to assist us a lot by cutting costs.


So, Minister, kindly ensure that we are really focussed on this department because it looks like we are treating it as just this little entity over there. We have a lot of challenges in South Africa. In fact, last week I shared a platform with former President Obasanjo. One of the things he said was that South Africa and Nigeria — whether we like it or not — are expected to lead the development of this continent. But we can‘t lead the development of this continent if we don‘t invest enough in innovation, because this continent needs a lot of innovation.


The only bad news, Minister ... I thought I would reserve the bad news for last. Minister, we are not happy with the allocation of the


Department of Public Service Commission. You know, this department

... the budget allocation of this department has been cut to the extent that we are actually paying commissioners and staff to get paid and not to do the work, because only 3% of their budget is left for them to do what the commission was established for. In other words, what can you do with 3% of the budget? You are actually paying people to be paid, not to do the work. It‘s an irony. We think this is going to be looked at because we the country is currently facing challenges of poor performance in certain aspects, notwithstanding that we do have best practices elsewhere. But we also have serious challenges with corruption.


You were also talking about issues of nondisclosures and having to have our staff to disclose. The Public Service Commission is very important in fulfilling that function. We implore you to make sure that, going forward, we make sure that the Public Service Commission is not crippled by insufficient funds. In fact, it doesn‘t make any economic sense; we might as well just close the commission if we are going to be paying them to get paid.


So, notwithstanding ... we would like to appreciate the Minister‘s devotion to this new portfolio. We also urge the Minister and Deputy Minister to ensure that we find a lasting solution for the Thusong


centres. Today we actually had discussions around this, and we think the Deputy Minister is on top of her game. We are recommending that we really need to bring in all the managers of the Thusong centres so that the business ... the funding model that you are coming with
... or the business model of the Thusong centres is also informed by the functionaries. It is not something that is just kind of a desktop study that is not necessarily based on the realities on the ground. We also need to make sure that we get all the different stakeholders under one roof, and that we make a way forward for those Thusong centres because they are absolutely critical to all the things that you mentioned, Minister, in terms of our role and where we are headed to as a country in terms of development.


Minister, on behalf of the committee, allow me to leave you with this in support of Budget Vote 10. I want to quote Margaret Chase Smith, who said:


Public service must be more than doing a job efficiently and honestly; it must be a complete dedication to the people and to the nation.


Thank you.


Ms D VAN DER WALT: Hon Chairperson and colleagues let me put the facts right. The DA did not support the budget. We reserved our rights after noting it. Today I would like to honour the thousands of truly hard working and dedicated public servants striving to, do their jobs, those servants who are not captured but try to deliver services to the South African public.


Minister, today marks the 55th day since your appointment to this department. Yet, you attended any of the portfolio committee meetings neither the two day workshop which dealt with your department's Annual Performance Plan, APP, and budget. You were however very quick to start spending money by hosting two Imbizos; one on your 29th and the other on your 35th day in office at an estimated R1,3 million, and even quicker within your first seven days, you started building your personal office empire. Not sure if you have seen this document referred to as the Ministerial Handbook specifically chapter eight. It states that you are allowed a total of ten 10 posts in your Private Office Staff Compliment, not 22.
However, Minister you have never been one to adhere to rules. As you have shown time after time, you have an utter disregard for your oath of office and the Executive Ethics Code. Was it really necessary to re-staff the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, with your cadres? Clearly we all know the


answer to this. In the ANC blind loyalty is rewarded, especially the blind loyalty to corruption and incompetence. Minister, you cannot go wrong if you prioritise the following on your reading list: The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa; the Ministerial Handbook; the guideline on cost containment measures by National Treasury; Treasury Regulations and the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. Please note that according to chapter 10 of the Constitution of our country, this department must be governed by nine democratic values and principles which include amongst others the efficient, economic and effective use of resources must be promoted. Services must be provided impartially, fairly, equitably and without bias. People's needs must be responded to. Public administration must be accountable. Public administration must be broadly representative of the South African people, with employment and personnel management practices based on ability, objectivity, fairness and the need to redress the imbalances of the past to achieve broad representation.


South Africa's enlarged Cabinet, which will be limited to 15 departments after the DA takes over in 2019, is amongst the world's largest in relation to the size of its population, obviously your Mr Zuma‘s massive Cabinet has a direct correlation with the massive size of our Public Sector Wage Bill. The Public Sector Wage Bill is


reflective of the growth of the executive as increasingly more government posts and entities must be created to support a snowballing executive structure.


This is problematic because it is one of government‘s biggest expenditure items. The ANC led government allocated more than a staggering R550 billion, not 50, but 550 public sector wages for the year 2017-2018. This means that the Public Wage Bill, which amounted to 5% of total government expenditure in 1994, has swelled to 43% of total government expenditure in 2017.


The government head count has plateaud at around 1,32 million staff, but wage growth has been robust. Although adding staff has been curtailed in the public sector, wage growth remain spectacular compared to the private sector. Should the upcoming wage negotiations, which are to be conducted later this year, be concluded at similar agreements to previous years, not reduced wage settlements, it could definitely add further risk to the fiscal outlook.


Minister it will be useful for you to examine the details of the wage settlements since the 2015-2016 financial year which has already resulted in a total average increase of 11,5% per employee.


The total increase in the Wage Bill over the past three years is an absolutely shocking R77,3 billion. Let that sink in R77,3 billion. This money indeed, could certainly be spent in a better place. We literally have people who are dying of hunger in our country, we have people living on the streets, we over 9 million people who are unemployed. Surely, there must be a better way to spend this extravagant amount.


Wave after wave of above inflation pay hikes for public sector employees, particularly in ministries which provide very little public benefit, is simply not sustainable or justifiable.


As part of your department's 38 annual targets, you have to develop proposals for the next round of salary negotiations. What criteria will you use to ensure it is sustainable and that it will enhance service delivery to the people especially the poorest communities in South Africa? We as the DA want and will ensure that there is service delivery for every single citizen in our country.


Our new reshuffled Minister according to a track record since her days as an acting Municipal Manager until her previous department, which was communications recently has an utter disregard for money. By no means takes into account austerity measures and is highly when

it comes to any form of expenditure. She is by no means qualified or capable to address the looming crisis of the Public Wage Bill. This couldn't even run a successful yard sale let alone a successful department. After being moved around all over the show, when will we finally be able to consider this member‘s mischief managed? We as the DA remain utterly faith less. Thank you. [Applause.]


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I think Jacob Zuma is a fan of George Michael. You got to have faith; faith; faith; you got to have ... [Interjections.] ... the rest of the lyrics are quite on ... [Inaudible.] ... continue ... [Interjections.]


Mr M A DIRKS: Hon chairperson, I rise on a point of order. There is no Jacob Zuma in this House and we need to refer to other members in a respectful manner, either Mr or hon member not on their first names. Let us 18:18:09 respect of the Rules. Thank you.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Mahlalela): The order is sustained. Can you refer to any member of this House hon or Mr.


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, the Rule says I cannot refer to a person by the first name or the surname. Therefore, I referred to him by his full name, Jacob Zuma.
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Mahlalela): No, it is Mr.


Mr N PAULSEN: But anyway Chairperson, can we continue please!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Mahlalela): Yes, but you must respect the Rules of the House as you continue. You must respect the Rules of the House.


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, my time please! Otherwise, I cannot imagine why else the President would include the hon Faith in his Cabinet. He should rather have made her a Minister without ... [Interjections.]


Mr M A DIRKS: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Mahlalela): Hon Paulsen, I said you must refer to the President as required by the House as ...


I said the President. What is wrong with you? You need to understand your Rules.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Mahlalela): ... as Mr Zuma or hon Zuma.
 

 


Mr N PAULSEN: Okay, number one. Okay! If the President was so insistent on including the Faith in his Cabinet, he should have made her a Minister without portfolio.


We do not have faith in you hon Minister, since your days at communication we all know ... – sorry Ms - ... the fantastic catastrophe you caused there, we can only wait for the further destruction and chaos to come to this current department.


We say so because everywhere you go, you leave a trail of destruction. Where there was faith and hope when you arrived, by the time you are gone there is nothing but mistrust and misery. But, let's deal with something a bit more substantial a policy matter, which we have raised since our arrival in Parliament.


In January 2017, the University of Witwatersrand announced that it would start in sourcing contract employees. The salary of outsourced workers who earned below the minimum wage was increased to R4 500 in January. The University of Cape Town has in sourced all workers, more than 1 000 who were previously outsourced as security guards, cleaners, caterers, gardeners, and drivers. They are all now employed with full medical and pension benefits, and their children will have the same benefits as professor‘s children. A daughter of a
 

 


gardener will get free education because her mother is an employee of the university. A son of a cleaner will get free education because his father is an employee of the University, and this trend will spread across all universities. The EFF student command will not rest until all university workers are in sourced ethically and with dignity. But, we are not debating higher education today; we are debating public services and administration.


We stand here as the EFF to put forward a much more sustainable and financially sound proposal on how to build efficient public service. The government must take a lead in fighting against outsourcing, and not be led by university when government is supposed to be a leader of society.


The government departments; provincial departments; municipalities and state-owned entities outsource basic functions worth billions every year. That is why staff in this Parliament will not even get a salary increase this year. Thousands of workers are employed by companies and subcontracted to government, creating a network of corrupt unnecessary middleman; a layer of ANC cronies who get this tenders but pay the workers slave wages.
 

 


It is time that all of government in all spheres start employing people and we must do away with contracting and outsourcing.
Cleaners, gardeners, drivers, plumbers, artisans, and all other workers currently outsourced must form part of public services. They must benefit from medical aid, pension and housing subsidies. All workers must have fulltime 20 working days a month, a minimum of 42 hours a week with paid leave.


If the ANC is serious about socioeconomic radical transformation, from a public service reform, this is the most logical and practical manner to do it. Thank you very much.


Mr N SINGH: Hon Hlengwa serves on this committee so I will just be sharing some of his thoughts with all of you hon members here and the thoughts of the IFP. But at the outset let me wish the new Minister well and in particular the Deputy Minister who served as chairperson of the committee that I serve public enterprises. I must tell you things are hot there since you have been gone. This department has one of the toughest mandates in government. That is, inter alia, to ensure the efficiency and efficacy of the public service and improve the professionalization of service delivery by government to the people. This is particularly difficult given that this is done through a civil service which is keenly aware of the
 

 


socioeconomic conditions our people. Public service is no ordinary job, but rather a patriotic duty that makes or breaks the prospects of alleviating the plight of our people. In fact, public service is the yardstick measure of service delivery and a crucial benchmark about the health of our democratic discourse.


In order for the department to achieve its broad mandate it needs to establish a culture of patriotism in the civil service. It needs to establish well-run and effectively co-ordinated state institutions with public servants who are cognisant of the fact that they are there to serve the public and it is their commitment that ultimately provides this service at a personal level. Sometimes I wonder, where Batho Pele? [People First] Many magnificent, excellent civil servants and public servants, at the coalface of where the public attend the Department of Home Affairs and other places but there some who just should not be there Minister.


I was told the other day by a colleague of mine, when he walked into a Department of Home Affairs, at 10 o‘clock, people were eating Kentucky Fried Chicken, KFC, and he could see them through the window, three of them, and when he went and reported to the supervisor and he had to go back the following week, you know what they did? They blocked off the window so that you could not see that
 

 


they were eating KFC, they might have been eating still behind there. Now that is the kind of people that sometimes are our public face when we go there. In a country that is well renowned for protesting – and we can see a lot of service delivery protests – we need to ensure that our public servants up their game. The continued politicisation of unions is the greatest threat to the professional functioning of the Public Service. The politics of the tripartite alliance in particular have often spilled over into the operational discourse of the public service, bringing service delivery to a painfully grinding halt, to the expense of communities, patients and learners. The IFP supports, upholds and respects the right of workers to organise themselves into unions but all rights come with responsibilities especially when it comes to essential services.
Another ongoing issue that requires the department‘s attention is the issue of public servant absenteeism. How many public servants we find not at work on a Monday, not at work on a Friday? And then you get bogus medical certificates. I experienced it when I was MEC and people were coming with bogus medical certificates especially those of a psychiatric nature were they get off for a year, two years and not at work and you need to deal with this hon Minister.


The IFP will support the department‘s initiatives aimed at entrenching the Batho Pele principles and professional
 

 


administration in all spheres of government and at all sectors of public administration. South Africa deserves an impartial, transparent, competent, accountable, efficient, effective, apolitical, nonpartisan and trustworthy public service. As the IFP we support the budget and we will continue to work alongside the department to ensure that the principles of service delivery are adhered to at all levels and that the vision of the National Development Plan, NDP, is also maintained. I think my time is up Chair. Oh, my time is not up. Okay, let me talk about something else, I have half a minute.


I would also like to address the issue of people with disabilities. Maybe we can be told you know I am not in the department or in the committee, how many people were disabled? Are we meeting the quota? I know of an individual that worked for me when I was MEC who was blind and the one day I walked into the office I saw something shaking under the table and I thought it was a snake – because I jump on the table when I see a snake – but he had his guide dog there and this young man for 10 years has not gotten a job because the next MEC fired him after I had left. [Time expired.] Something has got to be done about people who are disabled who can be of service to the nation. Thank you, Chairperson.
 

 


IsiZulu:

Mnu S C MNCWABE: Sihlalo, ngibingelele uNgqongqoshe neSekela lakhe, abahlonishwa bonke abakhona, abaholi beminyango noma izinhlangano [entities] ezingaphansi komnyango abakhona, ngizwile ukuthi kukhona nabaholi bendabuko abakhona, ngiyabingelela koNdabezitha ngokuhlukahlukana.


English:

The stated core focus of the Department of Public Service and Administration is to implement and co-ordinate interventions aimed at achieving an efficient, effective and development-orientated public service which is an essential element of a capable and developmental state such as this one of ours, South Africa. In short, the department is expected to be the principle driver of the constitutional requirement that we have a public service that is professional, accountable and development-orientated. To execute its mandate, the department has been allocated a modest R897,1 million for 2017-2018 which represents an 8,21% real increase on the
R779 million for the previous financial year. A salient feature of the budget analysis is that 31,5% of the budget will be spent on employee salaries, and 48% has been allocated to transfers.
The NFP supports the observations and recommendations contained in the report of a portfolio committee. In particular, we are in
 

 


agreement with the assertion that the digital revolution in the public service is going to be crucial to service delivery in the public service and urge the department to implement the recommendation that the director-general should sensitise the Forum for SA Directors-General about the digital revolution, which is likely to impact on how government provides services in the future. In addition, we share in the comment of the portfolio committee that the 49% increase in the allocation for Program 5 dealing with service delivery support is commendable. This allocation will increase the capacity of the department to give technical support and advice to national, provincial and local government institutions that experience service delivery challenges and will ultimately serve as both a preventative and remedial measure to service delivery challenges and protests.


Finally, the NFP also supports the view that the department should prioritise and enhance e-governance as an important tool for improving service delivery. We share in the belief that e- governance must make government services more accessible, reduce the cost of accessing such services and improve turnaround times for receiving services in the public sector. The NFP supports this Budget Vote, and I thank you.
 

 


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you

Chairperson. The Minister of Public service and Administration hon Faith Muthambi, the hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, Dr Makhosi Khoza, the Chairperson of the Presidential Remuneration Review Commission, Justice Kenneth Mthiyane, the Chairperson of the Public Service Commission, Adv. Richard Sizani, Chairperson of the Government Employees Medical Scheme, Ms Nontobeko Ntsinde, Directors-General and Heads of MPSA entities, hon members, guests, fellow South Africans.


Hon Chairperson, we are honoured to present to this House the Budget Vote 10 of the Ministry of Public Service and Administration. As the Public Service and Administration, we are in the forefront in capacity building of our state. Our role is to ensure that throughout government, services are delivered, effectively, efficiently in a manner that redresses the imbalances of the past and restores dignity to all citizens.


We present this Budget Vote hon Chairperson seeking to make right where there were wrongs of the past. This is in line with the vision of generations of illustrious leaders that led our liberation movement. As the nation commemorates 2017 as the Year of Oliver Tambo, we are reminded hon Chairperson of the values of the ANC
 

 


President which he stood for. These values hon Chair, include amongst others the humility, selflessness, dedication, and respect for human dignity. We ask ourselves on how we can embrace these values to strengthen our services in government, as we seek to decisively respond to the aspirations of each and every citizen.


This leader Oliver Tambo hon Chair, left us a significant and an enduring heritage. It is a heritage that enhanced our Constitution, and contributes to the inclusive and equitable policies of our government. This is a legacy that lives on, and we must hon Chair, build on it. The Constitution of our country hon Chairperson, calls on all public administration to be accountable, transparent and developmental oriented. We owe it to this remarkable legacy of Oliver Tambo to ensure that public institutions are well run and effectively co-ordinated. These institutions hon Chairperson must diligently and consistently deliver in line with the heightened expectations on the public that we serve.


Against this increased citizen expectation for improved services, including the need for innovative service delivery tools, mounting pressure is put on government to find more creative ways of responding to citizen‘s expectations. Hon Chairperson, this calls for the public service to be more open minded, to embrace new
 

 


thinking, new ways of doing things, as this approach will present opportunities to derive simpler solutions to our common challenges.


To address these triple challenges of poverty, unemployment and inequality hon Chairperson as contained in the National Development Plan, the public service has to reinvent itself - to find new ways of adding value to the systems and practices at workplace. The Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI, continues to entrench the culture and practice of innovation in the public sector through various programmes.


In 2016 the CPSI took a strategic decision to launch a series of workshops that targeted the leadership of sectors to ensure that innovation is embraced as a vehicle for service delivery enhancement. As part of this drive hon Chairperson, the CPSI conducted four sector specific workshops for 163 hospital CEOs and Clinical Managers in Limpopo, Mpumalanga and KwaZulu-Natal where numerous health innovations, unearthed through the Annual Public Sector innovation Awards Programme, were shared. The purpose of this workshop was to encourage the replication and mainstreaming of implemented public sector innovations within the health care centre.
 

 


In 2016-17 hon Chair, the CPSI continued to facilitate the replication of innovative solutions unearthed through the Annual Public Sector Innovation Awards Programme. The Saving Blood, Saving Lives project from Edendale hospital in KwaZulu-Natal, where it saved the hospital R16 million in three years, is an example of such an innovation. [Applause.] In 2016 this project was recognised by the Minister of the Public Service and Administration, as a category winner for its role in reducing the use of blood and blood products thus saving money for this institution. This project is the first recipient of the GEMS Health Award, an accolade that the Medical Aid Scheme bestows, within the CPSI Innovation Awards Programme, on health institutions that have used innovation to solve service delivery challenges.


Hon Chairperson, we are happy to report to this House that the CPSI has facilitated the replication of this solution at various hospitals in Gauteng and elsewhere in the country. Within the last year the CPSI facilitated the replication of a crime prevention solution in 67 no fees schools in Gauteng in partnership with the Department of Community Safety and Education. The solution connects households and schools to sector policing vehicles, police stations and community police forums for quicker response time to incidents
 

 


of crime. To date, 25 police stations have been connected to households and schools in Gauteng and North West Province.


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M E Coleman): I am sorry but may you round off. I am hoping that you are rounding off.


The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Oh! Now

you have disorganised me hon Chair. Let me quickly rush to the last pages. Hon Chair in August 2016, the National School of Government entered into a Memorandum of Understanding, MOU, with the South African Local Government Association, SALGA, to collaborate on areas of capacity building in local government. The MOU also provides for collaboration in, inter alia, public lectures and leadership platforms for reflection, utilising local and international experts, targeting mayors councillors and top leaders in local government; and induction programmes for councillors and senior management to promote the narrative of Back to Basics in municipalities. In collaboration between the NSG and SALGA hon Chairperson, currently efforts to professionalism ... Thank you. We support the budget. [Time expired.]


Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister, I would like to start off by saying that thank you to the thousands of
 

 


good, honest and hardworking civil servants because we do have those. We respect them for what they are doing. Unfortunately, the question is - are they in the majority or are they in the minority? It was mentioned earlier today that the budget in terms of expenditure was 5% of the total Wage Bill while of total government expenses in 1994 was 5%. However, it increased to more than 40% in 2017, then we should all understand and realised that we are seriously in trouble. The reason for that is very simple; government is committed to job creation and I understand that, but on the completely wrong approach. It is not the task of government to use the civil service to create jobs. That is wrong. You can never do that.


They will differ fundamentally in principle with government because we believe that the private sector should be assisted to create jobs and to allow the economy to grow. That is not happening. You cannot create jobs with the civil service that are total bloated and with this enormous Wage Bill it will destroy us. However, there are things that concern me, hon Minister. Are you aware that the treasury‘s procurement office found that there are 12 000 deceased people on the register of companies that are doing business with the state – 12 000. I will come back to that. It is more worrying that the Treasury‘s procurement office found that there are 14 000 civil
 

 


servants who serve as directors of companies and who have contracts with the state. How is that possible? Why on earth should be the civil servants be doing business with the state. Why? Give me a good reason. Why?


A civil servant is supposed to have a good salary to serve the public and South Africa. They should not be in the position where they are using their positions to get hold of contracts. That same office found that fraud and inflated prices cost a state approximately 40% or R600 billion for goods and services. I have seen that myself. I was able to visit, unfortunately, the Nkandla situation. More that R262 million was spent there. You won‘t find R50 million in value there, but somebody paid R262 million. That is where the money is going. That why we have got the corruption problem in South Africa. That why things are going completely wrong. Those 12 000 deceased people on the register, do you know what they do? It is corrupt officials who create fake companies and use those deceased people‘s particulars and they endorse corrupt companies bid too high and then they get the contract. Minister, you are in trouble. [Time expired.]
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms E M Coleman): The time has expired, Mr Mulder. Thank you. The next speaker is hon D Carter. I am told ... [Interjections.]


Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, I will just check where she is because she is moving from Chamber to Chamber. We have got to understand that she is a one member.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms E M Coleman): Unfortunately, hon Carter is not here and we will continue with the next speaker. May I call upon hon Newhoudt-Druchen who will be speaking from the seat?


Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members and hon guests welcome. In 1993, an interim Constitution of South Africa was established, which indicates that there shall be a Public Service for South Africa, structured in terms of law to provide effective public administration. This resulted in the kind of public administration that we aspired for, as mentioned in Chapter 10 of the Constitution in 1996. Since 1994, our people started to be closer with government, legislatures and participate openly in the development affecting their lives, leading to an inclusive government. The ANC laid a foundation of a democratic public service on a basis for greater accountability of
 

 


the state to its citizens. There was a need to modernise the architecture of the Public Service, to make it more efficient, effective, accountable and people-centred, so that it would be able to fulfil its transformative agenda.


Significant progress has been made since 1994, notably through the extension of access to basic services such as water, electricity, education, housing and social security. However, despite this progress access to quality services remains uneven. The ANC believes that despite progress made by the Department of Public Service and Administration to address challenges highlighted in the National Development Plan, NDP, the department should further enhance and strengthen its capacity to address the following issues: Firstly, the implementation of the Public Administration and Management Act which prohibit public servants from doing business with the state.
The committee urges the department to speed up the process of finalisation of the Public Administration Management Regulations to curb inefficiencies in the Public Service.


Our Constitution states that we should have a public administration that is accountable, transparent, efficient and developmental orientated. Everyone appointed in the public administration has to be guided by the principles as we move towards building a Public
 

 


Service as career of choice. Principles and values are the code of conduct and practice, we all have the responsibility in the Public Service to embody and adhere to them. The office of norms and standards was established to curb malpractices in the Public Service. The department should partner with the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation as well as the Public Service Commission in ensuring heads of departments sign and evaluate performance agreements within prescribed timeframes. Government needs an electronic performance management system to monitor whether performance contract of directors-general, DGs, are signed within appropriate period. Government signed and adopted the Public Service Charter, and this promotes the service standards with a call on public servants to meet and exceed them.


The charter also seeks to improve service delivery programmes, and reinforces the commitment of all partners to service delivery improvement for the benefit of our citizens. In order to build effective, efficient and responsive Public Service, the department has to enforce effective implementation of the charter across the Public Service. During our oversight in Mpumalanga and Limpopo province, we have witnessed that government is lacking behind when it comes to instilling principles of this charter. The capacity of the state to deliver depends on human resources. During our
 

 


oversight visit, there is a huge vacancy rate in our public hospitals. The key responsibilities of the department are to monitor the vacancy rate in the Public Service. But the vacancy rate is not well reported and the persal system seems not to be accurate. We encourage the department to intensify its efforts in monitoring the vacancy rate.


Disciplinary cases are prolonged in the Public Service. A high number of officials are suspended, some with and others without salary. The department needs to publish such information as the committee has been asking for it. The idea of appointing a pool of experts to fast track disciplinary cases is most welcomed. In curbing conflict of interest either direct or indirect, we urge the department to speed up and prioritise consultation with relevant stakeholders in identify further categories of employees to disclose financial interest. This can serve as strategy to curb corruption in lower levels in the Public Service - ensuring that the Public Service is conducive to persons with disabilities as entrenched in the Bill of Rights, which affirms the democratic values of human dignity, equality and freedom, by ensuring that employees with disabilities are provided with the appropriate working environment and the required devices to effectively perform their duties and functions.
 

 


Since 31 December 2015, the Public Service had a workforce of

1 320 759 of which 9 O91 are employees with disabilities, yet only 1,19% of the employees with disabilities have been provide with reasonable accommodation and assistive devices. Also to ensure the implementation of a formal Public Service graduate recruitment scheme. The NDP proposes a number of interventions aimed at ensuring that the Public Service becomes a career of choice and that it attracts and retains appropriate skills and expertise necessary to deliver on the goals and mandate of government.


We applaud the department in prioritising the implementation of the scheme, as a strategy for recruiting dedicated young people, to develop their potential and advancing their career progression in the Public Service. The committee also recommended funding and institutional model for the Thusong Centres should be fast-tracked in a bid to improve the efficiency of these centres. The Public Service Commission is an independent oversight institution established in terms of Chapter 10 of the Constitution. The commission is addressing some of the key issues raised in the NDP such as building a capable, career-oriented and professional public service. The commission has an obligation to promote values and principles of public administration, as enshrined in the Constitution. Through its oversight reports, the Public Service
 

 


Commission, PSC, has continued to advise government as well as Parliament on areas of progress and areas that undermine the ability of the state to deliver. The PSC needs to ensure that there is improvement in timeous submission of disclosure forms by senior managers with regard to the financial disclosure framework.


Hon Minister and Chairperson of the Public Service Commission, the committee would like to see a 100% compliance rate with the financial disclosure framework. The commission should speed up analysis of information to detect if there are conflict of interest before it is too late. The e-disclosure system should serve as a preferred option in disclosing which is much faster and better. The Centre for Public Service Innovation was created to solve service delivery challenges in the Public Service through innovation and replication of solutions. The committee urges the Minister to ensure that this centre is well funded so as to assist government in tackling service delivery challenges. Hon Chair, the ANC supports this budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


Ms Z JONGBLOED: Chair, hon members, it is absolutely scandalous that Number one did not dump the new Minister of Public Service and Administration when he had the opportunity to do so in his recent midnight Cabinet reshuffle. In the final report of the SA
 

 


Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, ad hoc committee ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms E M Coleman): Mam Jongbloed, can you just wait, just a second.


Mr S M RALEGOMA: On a point of order, Rule 82. We want to understand which number one.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms E M Coleman): Order! Order, members! I think you know the Rule.


Ms Z JONGBLOED: No, the hon Number one. [Laughter.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms E M Coleman): Mevrou Jongbloed, please follow the Rules.


Ms Z JONGBLOED: What is it? I said the hon Number one.


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms E M Coleman): We don‘t have hon Number one in this Chamber or in the House. Please, do the right thing.


Ms Z JONGBLOED: The hon President.
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Ms E M Coleman): Thank you.


Ms Z JONGBLOED: In the final report of the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, ad hoc committee the following was stated about Minister Muthambi ―the committee found that the Minister displayed incompetence in carrying out her responsibilities as shareholder representative.‖ Now she is with the Department of Public Administration, but missing in action as you‘ve heard from my colleague hon Van der Walt about the Minister‘s apparent lack of interest in her new department.


Mr B T BONGO: Chairperson, on a point of order, the Rule on relevance.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F Mahlalela): Proceed, member. Can we have order, hon members? We about to finish, just relax.


Ms Z JONGBLOED: Which brings me to the question: why is this woman still employed as a Minister in this Cabinet? The Public Service deserves better. South Africa deserves better. We shouldn‘t be plagued by this Minister‘s presence in government.
 

 


Even more worrying than the antics of the Minister, is the lack of urgency of government departments to pay their bills. By the end of January this year the National School of Government, already underfunded, was owed a staggering R18 million by government departments for training already received. It seems as though the school is not being taken seriously by other state departments creating the impression that it is a mere line item on the budget and that spending the budget and ticking the boxes are more important than effective service delivery.


What is also not taken seriously, is the manner in which the government‘s Policy and Procedure on Incapacity Leave and Ill Health, Pilir, is abused and the increase over the last years of the number of sick leave days taken by civil servants 10,5 days annually compared to 6,4 list days in the private sector. What is wrong with the manner in which the system functions at the moment? Just about everything. Cases are not being managed properly. If an employee is off, nobody knows the difference.


Pilir is going pear shaped, with leave forms not being captured, not signed, captured late, questionable medical certificates or applications without certificates and general apathy. Under the former Minister Trevor Manuel, Pilir was under central control for
 

 


greater oversight. But it was decentralised too so that departments take responsibility. Currently, there is no central government oversight function with the result that departments can - and do - run amuck. The Western Cape DA government is the exception! A staggering R550 billion in salaries for 1,3 million government workers are being controlled under the Pilir scenario. One wonders how much of this goes to employees that should be working, but are pretending to be ill.


A case in point is the employee who applied for special sick leave, but was declined long after he was already on incapacity leave. The matter went to the Labour Court where his defence was that had he known leave would be declined, he would have returned to work after his normal sick leave. Put differently, he was not sick enough but abusing the system. Another instance of misuse is an employee who had sight problems and decided unilaterally to work from 9 am to 1 pm every day to avoid bad road traffic. It took his line manager four years to discover what he was doing!


The Pilir concept is a very good one. Unfortunately, the reality has shown how easily it can be abused and is abused, because of faulty mechanism. The solution is simple. When the DA becomes the government in 2019, we will ensure that Pilir is managed
 

 


operationally at provincial level; that there is a straight provincial reporting line; regular and detailed reporting; dedicated Pilir offices at provincial level; decisive actions in case where the system is found to be abused, including having employees on extra sick leave they were not entitled to, pay back the money; and most importantly, ensure that there is a central government oversight function. Civil servants are running rampant with sick leave at the moment. What is needed with great urgency is a commission of enquiry into the system of incapacity leave and how it is applied. Thank you.


Mr M A DIRKS: Hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon chairperson of the committee, my hon comrades, all distinguished guests, good afternoon and welcome to this budget debate. Let me say from the onset: The ANC supports this budget – we fully support it. [Applause.] The ANC remains committed to building a developmental state that will be able to lead efforts to overcome the challenges of poverty unemployment and inequality as guided by the strategy and tactics document of the ANC.


The ANC remains vigilant to deepen the National Democratic Revolution, NDR, and accelerate service delivery and development. We need a stronger developmental state and a more integrated co-operate
 

 


governance system. Therefore, the National School of Government‘s priority should be to become a provider and facilitator for the public sector, and a centre of excellence of applied work-place education and training. We need to professionalise public servants in order to create a public service that will realise the objectives of the developmental state and Vision 2030.


A critical aspect of the NDP is that a capable state requires a public service with a common ethos and sense of purpose. Therefore, capacity development requires training education, professional development opportunities as well as the institutionalisation of appropriate working practices, norms and behaviour The strategic intent of the National School of Government, Prof Levin, is to ensure 100% coverage of education, learning and development across all spheres of government. This shows that the ANC cares.


Since its establishment, the National School of Government, NSG, has designed the compulsory induction programme and has already begun with the induction of directors and chief directors; and executive induction programme targeting deputy DGs and DGs. The NSG should ensure that the programmes continue to gain momentum across all salary levels in the public service as it is but one of the flagship programmes towards a skilled and professional public service. The
 

 


ANC has since proposed the utilisation of in-service and retired public servants to facilitate the NSG programmes and courses.


The NSG has commenced with work to realise this initiative through the Rutanang Ma Afrika campaign. The NSG currently rolls out training on approximately 130 accredited and non-accredited courses and programmes covering developmental areas in leadership, management, administration and induction. In 2015-16 financial year, more than 30 000 learners were trained across these courses and programs.


Therefore we will continue to support the appointment of youth into learnership, internship and artisan programmes within the public services whilst providing an opportunity for permanent employment within the public service. The school of government, Prof Levin, must be strengthened to train and retrain public service employees in line with the priorities of the developmental state.


The school must ensure that state employees are trained adequately to execute the mandate of service delivery and render high quality standard services. The school must be equipped with adequate resources, Minister. The school must play a key role in the senior management development and retraining current senior managers.
 

 


In conclusion, the opposition has once again shown the masses of our people today that they have nothing to offer South Africa but to come here and grandstand. It is the ANC who are raising the issues sharply in portfolio committees. The DA members are silent participants in these committees, and the EFF is nowhere to be found. In fact, the EFF has reduced itself from a political party to a political labour broker agency of the DA. They have taken the votes that our people have entrusted them with, to change their lives and used it as cheap political labour to advance the Neo- liberal anti-transformation agenda of the racist corrupt DA. [Applause.] The EFF is nothing else but political scab workers of a special type for the DA – amagundwane!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): There is a point of order. What is a point of order, hon Paulsen?


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, the hon member is misleading this House. We are not in alliance with anyone. I think he is either drunk or on drugs!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Thank very much, hon Paulsen. What you are raising is a point of debate, unfortunately! Proceed, hon member.
 

 


Mr M A DIRKS: My dear hon Van der Walt, you raised an issue about the administration since 1994 and that the wage bill has increased by 43%.         That argument is flawed hon Van der Walt. Hon Mulder also came and reinforced that argument of yours but it is very flawed. I will tell you why the argument is flawed.


That argument is based and steeped deeply in the apartheid system because what you fail to mention here was that the administration you are speaking about was only established there to provide for a white minority in this country and not all the people of the country. That is only to represent the minority and not all the people!


What you further failed to mention is that there were parallel administrations with that administration: The administration of Matanzima, General Bantu Holomisa, Lucas Mangope, General Oupa Gqozo and all those apartheid administrations! [Applause.] That is where the South African government pumped in billions of rands into those administrations – where corruption was at its worst in those administrations.


There were not systems in place in those administrations – the worst kind of corruption that you experienced comes from those
 

 


administrators. So, when did we as the ANC had to take over? [Interjections.] When? [interjections.] Listen! Listen! Listen! [Interjections.] Keep quiet, I will respond to you. Listen, I am educating you! [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Order, hon members. Order! Order! We want to hear the argument. Order, hon member! Proceed hon Dirks.


Mr M A DIRKS: So, when the ANC-led government took over, they had to incorporate all those apartheid administrations into one. We inherited all that untrained unskilled people that had used no system to squander and abuse ratepayers‘ money. [Applause.] That is why – that‘s why we had to decide to set up the school of governance to retrain our people because when we came in we knew nothing about public administration, and our people learnt from the very corrupt white people that we found there. [Applause.] [Interjections.] We learnt from the very best, the corrupt people that we found there.


And lastly, Van der Walt, let me clarify this issue here ... [Interjections.]
 

 


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, this fellow is quick to jump up if you mention any of their members by their first name or surname, but he refers to this hon member as Van Der Walt.


Mr M A DIRKS: I withdraw!


Mr N PAULSEN: You withdraw – good! Now go home! Useless thing! You are useless person man!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Proceed, hon Dirks. I was not sure what point he was raising.


Mr M A DIRKS: Hon members, the hon Van der Walt raised that issue because every time when the DA gets a hiding from me, then she wants to raise nonsense. [Interjections.] She raised the issues, she says,
―That hon member wanted to join the DA‖. Let me respond to that once and for all. Let me respond to that!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hon Paulsen, what is the point of order?


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, what is this toxic masculinity about giving a hiding? It is poison! Why does he want to give a hiding?
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Now, what is the point of order, hon Paulsen?


Mr N PAULSEN: He says he is giving a hiding here!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): What is the point of order?


Mr N PAULSEN: His toxic masculinity!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, no, no, sit down, hon Paulsen; there is nothing that you are saying.


Mr M A DIRKS: You see, I want to respond to that: I want the DA today ... [Interjections.] I want the DA today to look at this black face of mine carefully. Look at this black face! You see here in front, there is no ‗for-rent sale‘ here! I can see ‗for-rent‘ there,
‗for rent‘ there and ‗for rent‘ there. I am not a for-rent black! I am not a rented darkie! There are rented darkies there! Thank you! [Applause.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Thank you very much. The next speaker is ... [Interjections.]
 

 


Dr W G JAMES: Hon Chair, may I address you, Sir?


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): There is nobody on the floor hon member.


Dr W G JAMES: No, I am asking to address you.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Okay!


Dr W G JAMES: The previous speaker ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Under which Rule are you addressing me?


Dr W G JAMES: I am rising to address you ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Under which Rule?


Dr W G JAMES: No, I don‘t have to specify a Rule. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, no, you must address me based on the Rule.
 

 


Dr W G JAMES: I don‘t have to address you on the basis of a Rule. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, you must address me based on the Rule book. [Interjections] You cannot just address me without referring to a Rule.


Dr W G JAMES: I am asking permission for me to address you as Chair.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): ON which Rule hon member?


Dr W G JAMES: When I get into Parliament, I don‘t have to specify a Rule, sir. I am asking your permission to address you.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, you can‘t say you can‘t specify which Rule you are addressing me on.


Dr W G JAMES: I have risen in Parliament before, in plenary ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hoh James, address me ... I don‘t have a problem with you addressing me, but you should ... [Interjections.]
 

 


Dr W G JAMES: I have never been asked, sir. I have never been asked. I have never been asked in Parliament ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, you might not have been asked, but I am asking you on what Rule are you addressing me.


Dr W G JAMES: I would like ... [Interjections.] I would like to refer to the fact that the previous speaker referred to our members as darkies. That is a racist comment, and I ask you to note it. I want to address you on the basis of the fact that it is inappropriate, it is wrong and it is unparliamentary. Nobody should be referred to as a darkie.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Thank you very much. I don‘t remember him raising or referring to ... [Interjections.]


Dr W G JAMES: Hon Chairperson!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): As I am saying, I don‘t remember the member raising that but the member is ... [Interjections.] Wait, wait, wait! The member is here, he can speak for himself. Did you, hon member Dirks ... Stand up! Did you refer to any member of the House as a darkie?
 

 


Mr M A DIRKS: Hon Chair, they don‘t want to ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Order, hon members. I want to hear what he is saying. Did you refer to any member ...


Mr M A DIRKS: Hon chair, let me repeat my word as to what I said.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, no, no, hon Dirks! I am asking: Did you ... [Interjections.]


Mr M A DIRKS: No, I need to repeat! No, let me repeat, I cannot ... [interjections.] Then, I will ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): I want a yes, or a no!


Mr M A DIRKS: Go to the Hansard then, hon Chair. Go to the Hansard!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): What is your response? Yes, I will go to the Hansard, but what are you saying? [Interjections.]


Mr M A DIRKS: I will probably go to the Hansard. [Interjections.]
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): But what are you saying? Yes or no?


Mr M A DIRKS: No, I cannot respond to you in that manner of yes or no. Allow me to say what I said!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hon Dirks, I want to understand whether you did refer to ... Because it is you who was speaking. [Interjections.] On what you are raising, the issue if for you to say yes or no ... [Interjections.]


Mr M A DIRKS: I am not prepared to respond to their query!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, you are not responding to them; you are responding to me. It is me who is asking you.


Mr M A DIRKS: No, no, no!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Okay!


Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, may I address you on the same issue in terms of Rule 84?
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hon Mulder!


Dr C P MULDER: What the hon member has just ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Wait, wait, wait! Can you have order, hon members? There is a member on the floor. Hon Mulder!


Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, what the hon member has just now said is a blatant lie. I want to ask you, hon Chairperson: If Members of Parliament cannot set the example in terms of integrity, who should do that? The hon member has just now ... [Interjections.]


Mr M A DIRKS: On a point of order! On a point of order! On a point of order!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hon Dirks, you can‘t call a point of order on top of a point of order. No man, sit down! No, no, no, you can‘t! You can‘t do that!


Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson! [Interjections.] Not only did the hon member on numerous occasions in his speech refer to members on this side of the House as darkies; he has just repeated that in an interjection! So, denying that is a blatant lie and I ask you to act
 

 


in terms of what has happened. We cannot allow this to happen in our Parliament.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Thank you, hon Mulder. Hon Dirks, did you say people are liars? Switch on your microphone. Did you say ... [Interjections.]


Mr M A DIRKS: Hon Chairperson, I did not say that any member of this House is a darkie. I said, there are rent darkies in the DA! That is what I said! I never said ... [Interjections.] And there are they sitting. Look at the rent darkies there! [Applause.] [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hon Dirks!


Afrikaans:

Mnr M A DIRKS: Sit hom uit!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Thanks very much. He ... [Interjections.]


Ms H S BOSHOFF: On a point of order, Chair!
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, wait, wait, I am still addressing ... [Interjections.]


Ms H S BOSHOFF: On a point of order!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, I am still responding to hon Dirks.


Ms H S BOSHOFF:       Will you recognise me after you have ... [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Yes, I will give you, Yes! The member has denied having said that, and I can only take his words of what he said. Then, we will go and check whether or not it does reflect in the Hansard. [Interjections.] Hon member?


Ms H S BOSHOFF: Chair, the hon Dirks has just referred or said to hon Van der Walt, ―Voetsek!‖ [Interjections.] I would like to check the recordings on that as well, because there is no way that we are going to allow him to get away with what he has been saying. Thank you.
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hon Singh! Wait, hon ... Hon Singh!


Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, I think we can end this quite quickly. I rise in terms of Rule 82. The hon member just now said that he has said, ―Rent a darkie‖. I mean, what more do we need to go and read Hansard or read anything else. He said it; he should be man enough to withdraw because it is unparliamentarily and an abusive language in this Chamber. That is all you should request him to do, Chairperson.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Thank you very much, hon Singh. As I have indicated, we will consult Hansard and we will then rule accordingly because he is denying everything that you are alleging he has said.


Mr N PAULSEN:            He is a liar!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Thank you very much. We will call the hon Minister to respond to the debate.
 

 


Mr M A DIRKS: Sorry! On a point of order, Chair. That member there, Van der Walt, is sitting there and shouting at me saying, ―Sies!‖ She must not let me tell her where sies is!


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Can you proceed, hon Minister?


Mr N PAULSEN: Chairperson, I can‘t believe you are allowing this man to get away with this. He just threatened the member! He just threatened the member and you don‘t have the courage to remove him from the Chambers.


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No, hon Paulsen, you are out of order.


Mr N PAULSEN: No, Chairperson. He just said, ―I will tell you where sies is‖. He threatened a member. [Interjections.]


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): No man, sit down hon Paulsen. Hon Paulsen.


Mr N PAULSEN: He threatened a female and you are allowing this. You are allowing this!
 

 


The CHAIRPERSON (Mr A F MAHLALELA): Hon Paulsen, no man, sit down. Sit down, please. Please sit down! Hon Minister, can you respond?


The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, Oh,

they are going. I wanted to address the members who have just left the House. But I will still put the matters on record so that the public should not continue to be misled. The hon Paulsen of the EFF, in particular, seems to be so confused and not even understanding the mandate of this department. I urge him in absentia to go and read the provisions of section 3 of the Public Service Act. It is very clear as to what our responsibilities as the Ministry are to that effect. We are not responsible for labour relations for all sectors in the country. That is why there are various ministries that have different roles and responsibilities when it comes to that. We are also responsible for the establishment of the sector bargaining chambers. We are solely for that. Nevertheless, he is gone. I think I will urge him to go and read the provision of section 3 of the Public Service Act. It is very clear about our mandate. The Deputy Minister and I have been accounting to the work that has been assigned to us in terms of the law to deal with that.


I want to appreciate hon Singh, hon Mulder and hon Mncwabe from the NFP for being watchdogs for the betterment of service delivery. This
 

 


is what we want to hear from you. [Applause.] I want to assure you that we are hard at work to make sure that we turnaround the Public Service into a desirable one. We welcome criticism. As long as you are playing your part then you are true patriots. We would like to welcome those inputs and I can assure we will give you feedback on the matters that you raised.


On the issue of bogus medical certificates, hon Singh, as you have raised, members of the portfolio committee will tell you that the department has introduced a sick leave and ill health retirement policy. They implemented it after they have briefed the committee. They found that it has its own challenges. The committee has advised that they review it. In our briefing meeting the Deputy Minister and I were briefed about the review process and we will come back to Parliament to close those gaps.


I am also equally ashamed about the issue of the disability percentage that you have raised. But if you have heard my speech, we have also commissioned the Public Service Commission to seriously look at that. It is a work that we have keen interest in, and we say women and people with disability and must be given an opportunity to work. To comply with mere 2% is an area of concern. Certain departments have not yet complied, but ours as a Ministry that is
 

 


responsible for the enforcement, I think it is a matter that we take serious concern on. Public Service Commission will assist to make sure that departments comply with that requirement.


The other issue that I want to raise is what hon Van der Walt has raised – the issue of the wage bill. They turn to forget where we come from. The apartheid salary bill was low because it served the chosen few. It was not meant for everybody. They turn to forget because from where we are seated now South Africa‘s public wage bill is only number two higher than China in terms of the World Bank‘s report. People use to selectively choose and criticise the salary bill and not understanding it. From where we are, where I am seated, there are public servants, young men and women who are putting their best and I don‘t think we are paying them enough. But still because they understand, when duty calls they still serve with pride because they belong, they care and they are there to serve. They turn to ignore the statistics that are very clear. In terms of the Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics, countries, South Africa is at 14%, Russia at 16%, Brazil at 24% and China at 26%.
Look at our own African countries. Morocco is leading in terms of the wage bill, Botswana and the rest to mention but few. You come here and use the issue of the salary bill as if we are irresponsible.
 

 


It is we, the ANC-led government, of course with the support of other political parties, who brought this democracy. When we say radical socioeconomic transformation in terms of the Public Service, you won‘t achieve it without competent public servants who are prepared to serve the nation. These are the values that we are trying to entrench in our Public Service.


Also I want to thank all the other members for your inputs when it comes to the Centre for Public Service Innovation, CPSI, funding. Indeed, it is true they are underfunded. The hon chair of the committee has raised it and said we are living in the world of technology and innovation. The way the CPSI is operating now is based on those one that come and ask for requests. I think we need to put more money, but we also need to look at the public-private partnership partnership. In the meantime in between when we look at the issue of the allocation, we need to look at the issue of public- private partnership. Also in terms of our own programme, the Deputy Minister and I have already taken a conscious view to say, out of the money that we are having where we have money, we will have projects that support the CPSI. We consider innovation.


I think I must give members opportunity to go and look at the issues that the MeMeZa Community Safety project is dealing with. Some of
 


you might have seen and experienced that. During our outreach programme with the Minister they gave us the ―memeza‖ [shout] buttons. Vulnerable women in rural areas are able to alert other people when they are victims of crime. I think that is the innovation that we should all embrace and any other related projects like the one in Limpopo that they have raised.


We have met with the CPSI and asked them more innovative ways. We are a department that is full of paper thus far. We must start to eliminate papers that we are having and move to the digital era that members have also said. [Time expired.] [Applause.]


Debate concluded.


The mini-plenary session rose at 18:29.