Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 14 Jun 2017

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

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WEDNESDAY, 14 JUNE 2017
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:03.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to
observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

Question 19:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, various
allegations have been made in the public domain and much
evidence has also been published about undue influence of
some people, who it has been found that they may well
have had undue influence with regard to a number of
institutions of government and state in relation to
nontransparent appointments as well as procurement
decisions. The allegations are clearly a matter of grave
concern to many South Africans. State capture, even said

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in whatever form it takes is abhorrent and something that
we all as South Africans should not and cannot tolerate.

Amongst the urgent steps we need to take in this regard
is to establish a judicial commission of inquiry so that
it can probe the claims of corporate capture of state
institutions. President Jacob Zuma, who is the Head of
State and Head of Government, has the powers to establish
such a commission in terms of section 84(f) of the
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. He has
indicated that he isn’t opposed to the establishment a
commission of inquiry. As we speak now, he is in the
process of consulting his legal advisors in order to find
ways of giving effect to this proposal.

It is in the interest of all South Africans that the
commission should be set up as quickly as possible so
that all those who have evidence can present their
evidence to a competent body and those allegedly
implicated should also have an opportunity to respond to
the allegations that are being made against them. At the
same time, it is critical that the law enforcement
agencies give these allegations their full attention.

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We welcome the announcement by the Directorate for
Priority Crime Investigation, that they have already
begun investigations in these matters. The veracity of
the claims need to be established, where crimes have been
committed, those responsible must be prosecuted and must
be brought to book.

One of the important pillars of our democracy is the
concept of the rule of law. It is important that South
Africa should be a country that is regulated by the rule
of law. In matters like these, the law should be allowed
to take its course without any fear or favour. Alongside
this work, the government is paying specific attention to
strengthening the governance, the financial management
and the functioning of state-owned enterprises.

The Interministerial Committee on SOEs on the reform of
SOEs is engaged in the implementation of various Cabinet
decisions that were taken last year. These include the
adoption of a guideline for remuneration of key officials
in state-owned enterprises as well as the appointment of
directors. Still on SOEs, we are also looking at how we
can bring the private sector to participate through a

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framework, particularly when it comes to infrastructure
delivery. The Interministerial Committee has also been
overseeing a consultation process on a guide for the
appointment of boards and the various executive officers
and ensuring consistency and transparency so as to reduce
any form of opportunity for manipulation or bad
influence.

Consultation is also underway on a new government
shareholder policy, which will result in an overarching
SOE legislation which will inevitably come to this
Parliament. It is expected that this policy will improve
our oversight on SOEs and also ensure more effective
deployment and management of public resources and achieve
better co-ordination with regards to the commercial as
well as the social mandate of our SOEs.

Together, these measures should reduce the potential for
SOEs to be captured by corporate or private interests.
However, it is essential that we attend to the
allegations that are currently in the public domain with
purpose and determination if we are to restore the
confidence of our SOEs. These SOEs play a critical in the

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economic life of our country and therefore, we would like
to safeguard their integrity and ensure that they operate
as well as they should to advance the interests of all
South Africans. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M GUNGUBELE: Hon Speaker, I appreciate a helpful
response by the Deputy President, however, there is a
view that the pronouncement by our movement on the state
capture and judicial commission of inquiry is a ploy to
make it general or confuse the Public Protector’s
recommendation or render the process endless. What would
be your comment to that, Deputy President?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I am not aware of any
commentary that would make this process, particularly the
Public Protector’s intervention through her report an
endless one. This process is supposed to be a focused
process. The important part of it is that once you
appoint a judicial commission of inquiry, you are
elevating the investigation of this whole issue of state
capture and putting it in the hands of an entity or body
that is professional, focused and independent - an entity
that will be able to manage the investigations and come

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out with the truth. Obviously, the terms of reference of
this commission will guide what a judicial commission of
inquiry will do and we hope and trust that the terms of
reference will be broad and focused to ensure that the
issue of state capture is properly analysed and
investigated in all its ramifications. Also ensuring that
the truth in the end does comes out.

Those who have been fingered should be able to go and
give evidence or explain themselves in a fair manner and
that that commission will be able to clear people’s names
and if not cleared, then the consequences of the law
should be able to take place. So, the governing party in
my view is not trying to make this process long or
complicated, in fact it wants it to be as focused as
possible and happen as quickly as possible.

The good thing is that this judicial commission of
inquiry proposal has not received any rejection from any
quarter – from the President right throughout it is
supported. All that remains to be done is the modalities
of having it appointed. Thank you.

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Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, we from the ACDP welcomes
the commitment to fight state capture and particularly
the second leg of your answer was to appreciate the
commission of inquiry. There is obviously a degree of
urgency, where there are allegations of money leaving the
country and that is why we welcome the NPA and the Hawks
also investigating the allegations of criminality. As we
know, the Public Protector’s report also referred
allegations of criminality to these units. Deputy
President, we are however concerned about the allegations
from the board Chairperson of Prasa, Mr Popo Molefe, who
is now going to court, where he alleges that the Hawks
did not investigate allegations of corruption over a
period of two years. I would ask you, Deputy President,
whilst we appreciate the need to urgently investigate and
prosecute criminality now, how can we ensure that the
Hawks are not themselves captured in as much as they do
not investigate the serious allegations? There is
overwhelming and compelling prima facie evidence that
should be investigated and when necessary prosecuted.
Thank you, Speaker.

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, if live as we do as South
Africans in a country that upholds and respects and
embraces the rule of law, we should not be concerned that
any state institution should act unfairly and act outside
the parameters of the law, for instance, the chairperson
of Prasa believes that the work that should have been
done by the Hawks has not been done, he is fully entitled
to approach judiciary in our country, which is an
independent institution to get declaratory order in order
to get some form of justice and have the matter properly
addressed. Anybody from lowly citizen in our country to
whomever else, they have that opportunity and the right
to do so.

What is important is that the rule of law should be the
real lodestar that all of us follow and focus our eyes
on. In this regard I would say, if anybody has any doubt
about any state institution acting outside the parameters
of the law, the judiciary is there to apply the rule of
law. In this regard, if the Hawks or any entity is
sleeping on the job, the judiciary is there to help guide
us and point the way forward. Thank you.

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Ms H O HLOPHE: Hon Speaker, when I was listening to the
Deputy President, I feel the need to ask a direct
question. Do you support the commission of inquiry as the
Deputy President or not?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I do. I have gone public. I
will tell you the reason why I support it. I support a
commission of inquiry into this matter because of all
these allegations that are being made all round and truth
be told, if there are allegations like these, whoever is
affected should welcome the opportunity to go before an
independent body and explain themselves to clear their
name and put their case before such a judicial inquiry. I
say everyone whose name has been mentioned and even those
who have not been mentioned and anybody who has any
evidence should welcome the idea of going to the
commission of inquiry and present themselves. It is for
that reason that I support it.

The other important reason is that it is important that
those who have been mentioned should clear their names.
They should have that opportunity to clear their names.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]

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Mr D J MAYNIER: Hon Speaker, my question is whether the
Deputy President ultimately agrees that the best way to
prevent the manifestation of state capture is as the hon
Gungubele himself so eloquently put it a few months ago
for President Jacob Zuma to step down. The Deputy
President knows the answer to the question is yes. We
know the answer to the question is yes. Why does the
Deputy President just not make it easy on himself and
say, yes? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, if I know the answer
to the question, why is he bothering asking the question?
[Laughter.] [Applause.] I think the hon member should not
be unfair to himself. The commission of inquiry as I said
and I don’t want to repeat myself, is a great opportunity
that all of us as South Africans should grab. Those whose
names have been mentioned should also grab the
opportunity by going to the commission and explain their
actions or lack thereof. It affects everyone. I would be
affected as well and so are my colleagues.

That in itself has everything to do with clearing the
decks and ensuring that we put this state capture matter

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behind us and get on with the process of moving South
Africa forward. That is the important part. Thank you.

Question 20:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, the
issue of violence against women is clearly an affront to
all South Africans. Apart from its devastating impact on
the individuals affected, their families and their
friends, it undermines our efforts to build a caring
society in which the rights and dignity of all are
respected and upheld. If we are to succeed in overcoming
gender-based violence, we need to understand and
effectively address its causes. We also need to implement
measures to reduce the potential for gender-based
violence, and ensure proper support for survivors and
others.

The National Development Plan aspires to create a society
where the women and young girls in our country can walk
freely in the streets of our nation and children can play
safely outside. The Integrated Plan of Action to Fight
Gender Based Violence 2013-18 therefore aims to transform
attitudes, practices and behaviour. It aims to ensure

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better access to support services for women and children
at risk and to provide long-term care, support and
empowerment services for survivors of violence.

The plan aims to ensure that women and children are
better protected from violence through a strengthened
system with supportive legislative policy and
institutional frameworks that have adequate resources and
organisational capacity. It must also have comprehensive
evidence-based information. Work is currently under way
to review the Integrated Plan of Action, taking into
consideration lessons learnt and recommendations from the
diagnostic review that was done.

As part of a broader campaign to empower adolescent girls
and young women, the She Conquers campaign works to
reduce new HIV infections and focuses on teenage
pregnancies, school dropout rates, and sexual and genderbased violence. Government has also launched the National
Dialogues on Violence Against Women and Children. These
are a mode of engagement with communities to find the
reason for violence against women and children and to
develop common solutions.

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The respective Ministers in the executive have reported
to this House on progress made in our programmes to
address violence against women and children. These
engagements with the National Assembly have helped to
inform the conceptualisation of some of these programmes
and campaigns.

The struggle against violence against women cannot be
left to government alone, or, indeed, to the public
representatives in this House. It must be embraced by all
South Africans – men, in particular – to ensure that we
act decisively to end this scourge of violence against
women and children. I thank you.

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, I thank the Deputy
President very much for his answer which I really
appreciate. However, as things stand at the moment, there
is really no political will to address gender-based
violence, and I will give you examples of why.

In 2012, President Zuma launched the National Council
Against Gender-Based Violence but then afforded it no
funding. So, it was scrapped. Now, we’ve got government’s

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Integrated Plan of Action to Fight Gender-Based Violence.
Again, no resources were allocated to it. It wasn’t
costed and so, it’s achieved no success.

Clearly, government is not serious about fighting genderbased violence if it doesn’t fund its noble intentions.
In fact, this means that government is all talk and no
action. This is simply not good enough. In the meantime,
too many lives are lost, women who go to police stations
are turned away and, in general, the system is failing
our women.

Part of my question was: Can you list some of the
successes? Clearly, there are no successes to list. So,
yes, Deputy President, it is important for our
communities, our boys and our men to rise up and fight
back but they cannot do so if our government is not
leading by example. So, my question, Deputy President, is
this: As Leader of Government Business, what will you be
doing to hold to account Ministers who are failing our
women and our children? I think we need to start with the
Minister of Social Development.

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Finally, it’s very clear that this fight needs political
will, political leadership and resources. Can you give us
the undertaking – because we know we will not be getting
it from President Zuma – that you will take the lead in
this fight; and that our Cabinet will declare the
onslaught against women and children a national crisis;
and that you will, finally, give it the resources and
attention it requires? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the hon
Van der Merwe will be pleased to know that the Cabinet
has been at work addressing this matter. It has spent a
considerable amount of time, and Ministers through an
interministerial committee, IMC, have also been engaged
in finding solutions, embarking on actions that are going
to reduce violence against women and children.

Clearly, you are coming up with truly laudable proposals.
Political leadership is necessary. I could not fault you
on that, and I would agree with you completely. Funding
is also necessary. I will not fault you on that, and I
agree with you completely.

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Clearly, as much as we are acting under very difficult
economic constraints at the moment, this fight against
violence is a fight that we must fund. We must find money
for it and make sure that it is properly funded. At the
same time, however, the work that we do to execute this
will and this resolve that we have is done through a
plethora of government departments. For instance, the SA
Police Service do it on a dedicated basis and they are
rolling out offices in various police stations which are
going to make it much more conducive for victims of
violence to be properly counselled, to be properly cared
for, given the dignity that they deserve. Now, that is
being done through the SAPS budget.

Similarly, Social Welfare also has a budget dedicated to
caring for victims of violence. Indeed, the Ministry of
Women in the Presidency and throughout the various
departments of government, the work is getting done.
Clearly, we need to double or redouble our resolve. We
need to strengthen the various interventions that we are
making and this has been made very, very clear.

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I belong to the governing party and the governing party,
itself, has taken this up as a major campaign. It is in
the process of rolling it out throughout the country and
this campaign, in the end, should know no party
affiliation. It should run right across the various
parties. All of us should engage in it and as we do so,
we should be working alongside government and insisting
that government should strengthen its own interventions.
Where interventions are weak, we should be speaking out
and saying which parts we would like to have
strengthened.

So, you and I are completely ad idem on this. We want to
lead this campaign with great determination and great
strength. I am glad to hear that you and a number of
people in your party are going to be part of this
campaign, going forward. So, I thank you dearly. Thank
you very much.

Ms N V MENTE: Speaker, Deputy President, during the
Nquthu campaigns, we saw you committed ... even drinking
sorghum beer there. [Interjections.] I would like to see
the same commitment to this cause. I want to put it to

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you that, in what you are telling us, you are not half as
committed as you are saying.

Recently, you and the Minister of Health attended a
SA National Aids Council, Sanac, meeting, but you wanted
to leave before the end. The meeting then diverted from
the agenda, which was gender-based violence and HIV/Aids,
to your either staying or leaving. [Interjections.] That
is not commitment to the cause that we have today.

The violence against women is escalating at very high
levels. We want protection. You are the Leader of
Government Business. The Ministers must learn from you.
When you commit yourself, they will commit themselves
too. However, if you only commit halfway, they will not
commit fully. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I
explained very clearly my reason for leaving the Sanac
meeting. That was well explained, and may I say
immediately that the majority of people who were there
were very understanding of the reason for my departure.

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Only one person raised an issue and I said I’d like to
have a discussion with her.

In all the Sanac events, activities and interventions,
the Minister of Health and I have been giving leadership.
We have also been following the leadership of the various
leaders we have in Sanac, because in Sanac, we work as a
team. Nearly everyone who is there provides leadership.
They are leaders in their own right in their various
organisations. So, when one of them is absent, there are
many others who take the lead. When I am absent, the
Minister takes the lead. When he is absent, I take the
lead.

So, the point you have put forward is well made but my
departure from the Sanac meeting should not really be a
reflection on the weakness of my determination and it
can’t even be equated to drinking umqombothi. You know,
you can’t reduce ...

IsiZulu:
... into ebaluleke kangaka uyilinganise [equate]
nokuphuza umqombothi.

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English:
Umqombothi is the least of the important things. The
issue here is that we should all get engaged in this
process and I want to see myself in the street, together
with you, walking side by side, working together,
executing our commitment. That’s where I want to meet
you, right estrateni [in the street]. Thank you very
much. [Applause.]

Prof N M KHUBISA: Speaker, hon Deputy President, there is
another very bleak side of the story which is linked to
gender-based violence. Just recently, at a place around
Vryheid and Nquthu, a certain girl had to escape from a
place where there are foreign nationals who take girls
into a house and rape them. After that, they are
trafficked to certain places abroad. It is alleged that
each girl will cost about R15 000. That is another
scourge there.

The provincial government’s welfare department has
intervened but what can be done from your side, Deputy
President, to prevent such a pandemic and such a scourge?
Thank you.

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon
Khubisa, these types of incidents should really be
publicised, talked about and reported. It is when we have
an active citizenry through various formations that exist
amongst our people. From the governing party side, we
have called for street committees to be established so
that every street throughout the length and breadth of
our country should have people who are actively involved
in engaging in the task to ensure that there is no
violence against women and children.

If there are such committees and structures, we will then
be able to prevent activities like those that are clearly
criminal, that are clearly inexcusable. One cannot begin
to excuse actions such as the kidnapping of young girls
and having them raped and then sold into, say,
prostitution or sent outside the country. That cannot be
tolerated.

That information has to come forward, however, because
our law-enforcement agencies are on the lookout for
perpetrators like those. Those perpetrators belong behind
bars. They should not be let loose amongst our people.

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They should not be let loose amongst young girls. They
should actually be arrested, prosecuted and sent to
prison.

So, we call on our people to take action through the
various structures and communities and make sure that we
act together with our law-enforcement agencies to rid our
country of this scourge. Thank you very much.

Ms L M MASEKO: Madam Speaker, I thank His Excellency the
Deputy President for elaborating on that question by the
hon Van der Merwe and on the subsequent questions.

Given your delegated responsibilities as Deputy President
and your engagement with communities and stakeholders in
some of the foras to which you belong or head, my
question is: How can this engagement with them ensure
that there is buy-in, education and commitment from these
stakeholders and communities in fighting this scourge of
gender-based violence and ensure that human rights for
all are respected and upheld? Thank you.

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the
best way is to never stop talking about this matter.
Never stop taking action against this scourge and
highlight the importance of upholding the dignity of
women and young girls.

Through the various structures, such as the one I
referred to, the She Conquers campaign, it is focused on
young women and adolescent girls. Much as its genesis or
centre-point is HIV/Aids, it also deals with issues of
gender-based violence. It also deals with, say, the
economic disempowerment of women. It also deals with
poverty issues - because quite a few of these scourges
are really driven by poverty and the inequality that
continues to persist in our country. It also deals with
issues of education and the issues of lack of jobs.

So, a combination of all these problems is addressed
through a campaign like She Conquers. Indeed, there are
quite a number of other campaigns being led by various
departments in government. The important thing for all of
us, as leaders, is that we must not let up. We must
continue to talk about this matter. We must particularly

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focus on certain special groups in society – men and
young men – because those are the ones we need to reach
out to so that they fully understand that respect of
women, ensuring that we respect their dignity and human
rights, should be the order of the day in our country.

If we all spread the message, each one of us, as leaders,
we will then be able to reach out to those people and
change the behaviour, change the thinking and raise the
level of consciousness of as many South Africans as we
possibly can. Thank you very much.

Question 21:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the challenge of ensuring
that employees in our country in both the public and the
private sector are adequately cared for in relation to
retirement is currently confronting not only our country
but a number of countries around the world.

Due to advances in healthcare, many people who are
pensioners tend to live longer than a generation ago.
This then necessitates that the process of looking after
them and having a comfortable retirement comes to the

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fore because the healthcare that is now available to many
people enables them to live a lot longer. Many countries
have ageing populations. South Africa has the additional
challenge of widespread poverty and also is burdened by a
high level of unemployment and inequality, an inequality
that is racialised, for that matter – with significant
historical discrepancies in pension arrangements for
black and white South Africans. As a result, the majority
of pensioners in this country rely on state pensions.

With respect to the question posed by the hon member, I
am informed that the pension provisions for employees of
state-owned enterprises are protected in terms of the
rules of the funds, and the funds are also responsibly
managed. I am aware of long-standing challenges with
regard to pensioners that are part of the Transport
Pension Fund and the Transnet Second Defined Benefit
Fund. I am also aware that a class action has been
instituted on this matter, which involves a number of
people who are on pension. Whether or not it is heard in
our courts depends on legal challenges to it that I
understand have been referred to the Constitutional
Court.

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The Department of Public Enterprises is the one
department best placed to give answers on this matter and
also an update on the litigation to which Transnet,
particularly, is a party. Needless to say, it is vitally
important that this matter is resolved without any
further delay – meaning, as quickly as possible – as it
affects the living conditions of many elderly people who
are anxious, in great need, and who need this matter to
be resolved as quickly as possible. I thank you.

Adv A de W ALBERTS: Speaker, through you to the Deputy
President: Thank you for your answer. Many of the state
pensioners are quite concerned that there might be statecapture processes currently on the move in their funds.
One of the problems we have is that the state pension
funds are not transparent like private funds, for they do
not fall under the Pension Funds Act and therefore do not
have access to the Pension Funds Adjudicator. So,
whenever they have troubles they cannot resolve in their
funds, they have to go the route of litigation, which is
obviously very expensive, and, for impoverished
pensioners, it is really not possible to do that.

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My question is whether the Deputy President will consider
implementing or changing the laws in such a way that the
Pension Funds Adjudicator will have jurisdiction over all
funds, irrespective of whether they are private or
public. Secondly, will he ensure that the situation that
occurred with the Transnet funds does not repeat itself,
for most of those pensioners earn an average of
R2 500 per month, which is less than the amount that you
set for a basic income? I don’t think anybody can survive
on that. So, you need to have a look that, and I would
really appreciate it if you could consider changing the
laws to protect the funds and to make the state funds
more accountable in future. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, this is a proposal –
not a question as such – a proposal to consider whether
the Pension Fund Adjudicator could have jurisdiction over
all pension funds, including state pension funds. It is a
matter that I am sure can be looked at. I have not
applied my mind to it. It certainly is a proposal that
has been put on the table. Maybe it can be elucidated a
little more in writing so that we can then evaluate its

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efficacy and whether it is possible to have such a
proposal drafted into a piece of legislation.

I will say immediately that it is important that people
who are on pension should have a sense that their pension
funds are protected, are well looked after, and that they
are being dealt with and treated fairly. Clearly, if
there is a pensioner who, through the pension that he or
she gets as a result of past employment, is getting say
R2 500, that needs to be examined in light of the pension
fund rules and the pension fund funds in his or her own
pension fund. So, it is a matter that I would not be able
to adjudicate on. You referred to the basic income. We
refer to it as a national minimum wage, which, yes, if
the pension fund that some people get is R2 500, would be
less than the national minimum wage that we put in place.

All those matters need to be looked at. It is quite a lot
of work that can be done, but I welcome a positive
proposal that can be examined and taken forward. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]

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Ms N W A MAZZONE: Speaker, through you to the Deputy
President: Thank you. There has been a lot of speculation
in media reports about the safety of the Government
Employees Pension Fund, GEPF. I think that, even as
Members of Parliament, MPs, we are very concerned. Many
of us are – I am luckily not one of them quite yet –
reaching retirement age, and people are deeply concerned.
Hon Pandor, you are nowhere near retirement age yet.
[Laughter.]

I think that it is fair for us to say that we are
concerned, and we should be concerned for all our fellow
government employees. Deputy President, I would like you
to give an assurance to this House today that, under no
circumstances, will the Government Employees Pension Fund
be used or be allowed to be used, regardless of the rules
of the pension fund, to bail out any of the embattled
state-owned entities. That is the threat that is being
made, and it is something that worries not only us as
400 MPs but thousands of people across the country who
are going to count on this pension fund to be their
security in their old age. So, we need you as Leader of
Government Business to give us the assurance that this

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pension fund won’t be used to bail out a state-owned
entity. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, what I one can say
is that, clearly, the GEPF, which is managed by the
Public Investment Corporation, PIC, will always make sure
that the funds of the pension fund contributors are safe,
are well managed, and they have always been well managed
from the time I became aware of the PIC. The PIC, some
years ago, was worth just R500 million, and now it is
well above R1 trillion and more, which tells me that it
invests government employees’ pension funds very wisely,
and we have seen a great rise in that.

How do they invest those funds? They invest those through
a number of companies where they invest money. Their
investment strategy has always struck me as being very
prudent and as it being a well-managed type of investment
house because, in the end, that is what they are. They
have been managing, collectively, our money very
carefully. How do they do that? They buy shares in
various companies listed on the stock exchange, some
unlisted. They also buy bonds. Sometimes, when private

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companies and state-owned enterprises, SOEs, issue bonds,
they buy those because that is a store of a good
investment return.

If a state-owned enterprise issues a bond, and Sanlam,
Old Mutual, whoever, or some fund overseas buys a bond
like that, the PIC, which manages our money, could also
feel that they should put some money in. That, in my
view, does not mean that they are bailing out state-owned
enterprises. They are merely investing, and if they
invest in Eskom, they know that Eskom is a cash
generator, and they are going to get their money back. It
could be over a 10-year bond or a 20-year bond, and they
often take a long-term view of the money they invest.
That is why the PIC’s money or the GEPF’s money runs into
R1 trillion or more.

So, I do not share the same fear that you have – that our
government employees’ funds are going to be invested
badly or going to be squandered. I think the PIC has
distinguished itself as a very good money manager. So,
have faith, like I do, in the ability of the PIC and the
Government Employees Pension Fund to manage our money

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properly. They are also managing my pension money and
yours, so relax, and take this journey along with all of
us. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Speaker, through you to the Deputy
President: I also have concerns. The Government Employees
Pension Fund must ideally hold approximately
R1 600 billion in assets, which would be sufficient to
cover its liabilities. These assets are managed by the
PIC that you just mentioned and which estimates that it,
should the fund theoretically be required to fulfil its
obligations now, has the assets to fulfil only 79,3% of
the liability. This is down from 121% in 2014. So, I
don’t share your optimism.

Also, who gave the PIC permission to allocate
R196 billion to SOEs? I also don’t share your optimism
about Eskom, for example. Why is that, sir, and will you
tell government employees why their life savings and
pensions are going to state-owned entities? Why does
Regulation 28, which was created purposely to protect
retirement fund members, not apply to the largest pension

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fund in South Africa, the Government Employees Pension
Fund? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, my optimism is still
quite high, notwithstanding what the member has said –
that, in 2014, the cover they had was 120%, and now it
can be 79% or 80%. If one were to look at the economics
of it all, it is possibly a movement in investment. Right
now, the stock market is at a lower level and, in 2014,
we were riding highs that many people had never seen
before. The important thing is that there is still a
store of funds there, and the cover – I don’t know what
the actual cover ratio is – but the cover is still there
and able to cover those who are pensionable right now.

If you were to look at the employees who are pensionable
right now or who can take pension, the GEPF would be able
to cover its liabilities and obligations. If you study
the world of pension funds and these retirement
companies, you will find that sometimes they are below
cover, and sometimes they are above the cover. They ride
with the wave of how the market moves. So, as long they
have proper cover and there is prudency, I am not too

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concerned about that. I am not so au fait with
Regulation 28, but the extent where it has to cover any
liabilities, I think there is sufficient money in the
GEPF to cover that. Maybe the Minister of Finance, who is
in charge of all this, would be able to give you the full
details of how well covered government employees are with
regard to their pension fund.

I am comfortable that they are because there will never
be a run by every government employee on the pension fund
where everybody says that they retire now, even if they
are 25 years old, and asks for their money. So, we have
to ride the waves. In the end, there will always be the
assurance that government employees will get their money.
Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Speaker ... [Interjections.] ...
through you to the Deputy President: My question is
twofold. One question is: What level of oversight does
government have with the pension savings of the state
employees? That is the first aspect. The second one is:
In terms of state employees who are reaching pensionable
age, if you do become President, which I hope you would

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... [Interjections.] ... what would you do differently to
ensure that these state employees get added benefits like
housing and other benefits, which they don’t enjoy
presently? Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the level of oversight
that government has on, say, the PIC, clearly as you
know, is through Treasury. In the end, government makes
sure that, through governance processes, the PIC has a
well-functioning board, and there are proper governance
processes in the PIC itself. The PIC, as you know,
manages the GEPF. It manages the UIF’s funds and that of
many others. So, the Deputy Minister of Finance is the
chairman of the PIC. He oversees, in his fiduciary role
and responsibilities, the work of the PIC and makes sure
the investment committee of the PIC functions well. So, I
am satisfied with the level of governance within the PIC
or over government employees’ pension funds. It is there,
and it functions well. [Interjections.]

In relation to the issues such as housing, I think you
are raising a very interesting matter. I visited
Singapore a few months ago, and I found something that is

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really admirable. Government employees belong to a
pension fund on a compulsory basis, and their
contribution also helps them to get housing loans. As a
result, in Singapore, nearly all government employees
have housing because they use their pension fund money as
collateral, if you like, to get loans that allow them to
get houses. That is a well-streamlined process that they
have put in place over many years, to a point where the
housing of the people of Singapore is among the best in
the world. It is underpinned by their pension process.

By the way, every employee – whether privately or state
employed – has to contribute to this national pension
fund that helps everyone to have a store of wealth. It
also helps them with accumulation of some assets, so what
you are saying is very interesting. I think some pension
funds in our country do help employees to utilise their
funds in their pension fund as collateral for housing. We
have been looking at something similar in government, and
I am sure we will be advancing our thinking in that
regard so that we can help as many people as possible
when it comes to housing and to obtaining a number of
other assets. Thank you very much.

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Question 22:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the
World Economic Forum on Africa, which was held in Durban
in May this year, attracted a number of participants from
many countries and some of the participants were heads of
government, investors, policy makers and top business
people and entrepreneurs. Civil servants were also in the
mix and people from civil society were also participants.

Once again, Team South Africa distinguishes itself
extremely well. Team South Africa, consisting of
government, labour, business and civil society was able,
Madam Speaker, to effectively use World Economic Forum
Africa as a platform to position South Africa as a
destination for both business and investment.

As in previous World Economic Forum, WEF, events, South
Africa was able to effectively present our country’s
economic strength and engage meaningfully with various
investors and government leaders from other countries in
relation to the challenges that not only South Africa but
the continent faces.

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In a global economic environment in which there is
significant competition for investment as well as trade
opportunities, the World Economic Forum has an essential
role to play in exposing investors to what opportunities
countries have to offer. It is in this regard where South
Africa was able to excel exceedingly well.

Several other African countries have been effectively
using the WEF to showcase their economies and their
countries, and to present to the world the great
potential and the countless opportunities that their
countries have.

The WEF Africa meeting also provides an opportunity to
deliberate on a number of issues, including challenges
facing the continent at both economic and social and the
measures that we are taking to address them.

There was a particular focus on creating conditions that
are necessary for diversification of Africa’s economies,
the expansion of energy generating capacity as well as
the roll-out of infrastructure throughout the continent

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in the form or roads, in the form of railways as well as
building waterways.

South Africa’s experience in its renewable energy
independent power producer’s programme was considered
with particular interest by a number of investors. I
mean, they could not stop talking about the excellent
level of proficiency that we have reached in this regard.

A need was identified for the development of policies
that deepen Africa’s financial markets. A consistent
theme throughout the meeting was the role that research
and innovation could play in stimulating economic growth.

In this regard, we were able as South Africa to showcase
what our country is doing in relation to innovation, in
relation to creativity at the science and technology
level. As a consequent, there was much emphasis on
improving also education outcomes.

So, all in all, the WEF is a great forum, is an oasis for
great ideas, and is an oasis where people go to have
contact and having had contact to move to contract with a

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number of investors that one finds there. We have found
it to be most useful and is a breeding ground for great
economic opportunities for our country. We will continue
to participate and the great thing is that when we all go
as Team South Africa, business labour and government and
civil society, we speak with one voice. We are united and
all of us read from the same script. Thank you, Madam
Chair.

Mr M U KALAKO: Deputy President, thank you for your
answer. Following from what you have said, Africa is
positioning itself as an investment destination. What are
the plans added on what you have said as you have
elaborated on what this government is doing? What are the
plans and programmes that are coordinated by Southern
African countries and Africa at large in order to take
advantage of the opportunities created by hosting World
Economic Forum? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: We have a plefora
of plans and the one other good thing is that as African
countries, particularly Southern African countries, we
have intended to approach the WEF in a collective way,

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where we all promote one another, where we speak
positively about our region and where we try to
demonstrate to the world that we are moving more and more
towards integration in relation to trade, the movement of
goods and services right across the region where we are
focussing on infrastructure and we showcase projects such
as the Inga project where we will be generating energy
for the region, not only so much for the DRC and where as
we worked together and invest together, we are able to
reach high levels of great cooperation.

If there is an area where the region can cooperate
effectively around, it is through investment and trade
and in investment, particularly in infrastructures where
we were able almost to speak with one voice with the
investors. We were be able to show them that in areas
such as to tourism, which is a great job creator, that
when people from outside our region and the continent
come, they should look at us not so much only as South
African, but look at us as a region, where the region as
a whole has so much to offer on tourism, on investment
and energy solely as well is a great one an innovation, a
Minister of Science and Technology will tell you that she

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participate with a number of other Ministers who deal
with innovation and science from the region and indeed
from the continent.

So, these forums are able to get us to cooperate in a way
that gives us a number of great opportunities. So, the
WEF lends itself as a very good oasis for investment
opportunities. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M J CARDO: Deputy President, addressing the media at
the World Economic Forum on Africa earlier this year, you
said that Africa needed selfless and accountable leaders
who will lead this continent on a developmental
trajectory. My question to you, Deputy President is, do
you regard President Zuma as a selfless and accountable
leader who was able to steer South Africa along a
developmental pat? How does your party plan to
institutionalise the ideal of selfless and accountable
leadership in the state, which the former Public
Protector found had been captured by the Gupta family?
Thank you. [Applause.]

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Now, as you might
well know, President Zuma chairs has been honoured by the
continent to chair the infrastructure development
trajectory of the continent. Now, this, the continent did
... [Applause.] ... out of an informed realisation of how
South Africa as led by President Zuma has been able to
change the infrastructure trajectory of our country and
move it forward, and you look at the record that has been
achieved, the infrastructure layout and development that
has taken place in our country in recent years, a second
to none on the continent. [Applause.] A second to none,
and I think, let us give due regard and respect where it
is due. Where it is due, let us give it. No, no, I think
you better listen. You may want to condemn President Zuma
for a whole number of things and so forth, but I think we
should also focus on what our country has achieved. It
has achieved a phenomenal amount of progress and African
leaders recognise that, they have seen that, and that is
why they appointed President Zuma to be the champion.
Listen to this, the champion of infrastructure
development on the continent. [Applause.]

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So, I think recognise that and how do we plan to
institutionalise good leadership as the governing party
has its own processes like any other party, like your
party has its own processes. They may be great, they may
be weak, they may be flowed, but I am the last one to
condemn you for the processes that you have in your
party, which I may think are really bad and rotten, but I
will not do so.

Similarly, give recognition to the governing party that
as a governing party as a living organism that deals with
its problems and challenges, it has a plefora of wise men
and women who know how to chart the party forward. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]

Mr M L W FILTANE: Good afternoon, Mr Deputy President.
Through you Chair, if I was at the President at this
conference, I would have felt ashamed as South African
when the Department of Public Works made a trip to China
just to get poultry $4 million for its programmes. Now,
think about that, it is a World Forum, there is South
Africa going to China to get $4 million. Now, compared
that with the situation whereby there is very little

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Intra-Africa trade, we jumped its oceans and we go to
other countries overseas.

Now, was youth unemployment at its height for grounded at
this World Economic Forum, which is South Africa’s
problem? Question that I want to put to you in closing
is, why not overhaul our entire education curriculum so
as to produce qualified and skilled entrepreneurs, not
employees of the future, entrepreneurs, why not do it
soon?

In your principal response, you did say that you touched
on that. My question, the point of emphasis here is what
is holding the current government from doing that soon
rather than talking about it over along period of time?

In closing, ocean economy has been spoken about by your
government since 2005, but the first significant action
was only taken about a year or so ago. Why take so long
for such important changes that are needed? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: That is a mouthful
of issues, hon Filtane, but I will try to answer them. I

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think we should not look down on efforts that are made by
our colleagues even if they go to China or any country
and come back with $4 million. An amount of 4 million
dollars in our life is four times almost 13,5 or 13, 6,
and that’s a start. I was told that this was a start.
This is like ...

IsiZulu:
... le nto abayibiza ngokuthi yimvulamlomo. Uvula ngayo
umlomo kuthi ngemuva kwalokho kulandele enye imali
ngaphezu kwaleyo. [Ubuwelewele.]

English:
So, don’t look down upon initiatives like that. When it
comes to the youth employment, one of the things that we
are focussing on as government is the employment of young
people. We are very much alive to the fact that many of
our young people are unemployed; up to 60% of young
people are unemployed and we are very much alive to it.
That’s why we are forming partnerships with those who
will be able to create jobs for young people. Our stateowned enterprises are opening up opportunities for
learnerships and mentorship. So, that is being done.

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We have appealing to the private sector to do the same.
We are working and finalising a project through which one
million young people will be brought into learnerships
and mentorships by a number of companies throughout the
country over a three year period. That’s 330 000 every
year for the next three years, which can also be rolledout in the coming years. Now, that should never be looked
down upon.

So, we are making every effort. If you talk to any of the
Ministers, people who sit on their Cabinet here, they
will tell you that they have youth employment projects
focussed initiatives that they are working on trying to
see how best young people can be brought into employment,
into being introduced into the world of work. We are
doing precisely that.

Now, entrepreneurship is obviously a very important
aspect of our economic trajectory. We are trying to
promote entrepreneurship, the growth of entrepreneurs as
much as we possible can. But let us be clear, not
everyone can be an entrepreneur.

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So, there are people that can be entrepreneurs. We want
to create conducive environment for them to be able to be
creative to become entrepreneurs and be successful
entrepreneurs.

The Department of Small Business is focusing on that and
some people have even said, introducing the curriculum
entrepreneurship as a discipline for learning and I find
that very attractive. I support it completely. That
matter is obviously going to be looked at.

The oceans economy – I don’t know how far you are from
the ocean because if you are close to the ocean and the
various nodal points in our country – remember we have
3 000 length ocean that surround our country, and in a
number of the ports and harbours that we have, there is a
lot of activity taking place. We also focusing on
aquaculture and a number of other disciplines that the
ocean gives rise to.

So, much work is being done. Since we held our Ocean
Economy Phakisa, it has spooned a number of initiatives,
and we have a number of investment opportunities. Hon

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Filtane, you will be pleased to hear that many of those
are underpinned by dollars and pounds and data marks and
people who want to come and invest here and not
400 million dollars and above. I thought that will make
you smile. I am glad to have made you happy as I finalise
answering your question. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Tshivenḓa:
Vho S J NKOMO: Ndo livhuwa nga maanḓa Mufarisa
Muphuresidennde. Ndi masiari.

English:
Vho S J NKOMO: I think the Deputy President; you said you
have made contacts and contracts in this World Economic
Forum.

Tshivenḓa:
Riṋe ri IFP, ri khou ṱoḓa u ḓivha kana ri khou humbela u
vhudzisa uri ...

English:
... now that matters have actually happened at that
forum and ...

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Tshivenḓa:
Ri tshi khou sedza Afrika Tshipember, ri tshi khou sedza
na Afrika na ḽifhasi nga vhuphara ...

English:
... how will this forum or things that were said there,
how will they resolve some of the challenges which were
addressed and some of the challenges which were actually
brought forth in that forum?

Tshivenḓa:
Ri khou humbela u vhudzisa ngauri ri a zwi ḓivha zwavhuḓi
uri ...

English:
... showcasing is quite good and to cover each other is
quiet good where if talking about a particular country,
we all gang up against who so ever and we talk on those
matters, but the reality is that after the forum ...

Tshivenḓa:

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... ri khou ita mini, ri khou wana mini, ri khou ya gayi
riṋe ri Afrika ngauri ndi zwa ndeme kha riṋe uri ri zwi
ite. Ndo livhuwa.

Tshivenḓa:
MUFARISA MUPHURESIDENNDE: Ndi a livhuwa. Ndi masiari a
vhuḓi. ndi livhuwa mbudziso yavho ngauri ndi khou i vhona
i tshi khou lingedza uri i ri ise hafho kha u amba nga
zwe ra zwi wana kha heyi World Economic Forum.

Zwe ra zwi wana ndi zwinzhi. A thi ngo ḓa ngeno ndo
lugisa dziphindulo dzoṱhe. Ndi nga kona uri ndi vha
ṱalutshedze nga ḽiṅwe ḓuvha uri hone ro wana mini kha heyi
World Economic Forum ngauri ndo amba ngauri vhathu kha
maguvhangano hayo vha a kona u ṱangana, vha ri vho ṱangana
vha ambisane, vha tshi fhedza u ambisana ri wane uri vha
a kona uri vha vhe na zwine vha zwi phetha vha ri hezwi
ndi zwine ra ḓo kona u zwi ita. Ri ḓo ḓisa tshelede
nngafha hafha Afrika Tshipembe. Ri khou ṱoḓa uri ri dzhene
kha heyi tshumelo, i nga vha migodi, i nga vha dzifeme, i
nga vha fulufulu ḽa ḓuvha kana dza muya kha zwoṱhe zwezwo.

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Ndi zwinzhi zwe zwa ambiwa nga hazwo kha heyi World
Economic Forum zwine zwa vha zwithu zwa vhuḓi kha riṋe
vhathu vha fhano Afrika Tshipembe zwine zwa ḓo kona uri
zwi ise ikonomi yashu phanḓa.

Ngauralo, ndi nga kona uri ndi vha ṱalutshedze nga
tshifhinga tshiḓaho uri hone ro wana mini ngauri a ri
sokou ya kha haya maguvhangano u sokou sumbedza vhathu
uri ro naka u swika gayi. Ri ya ri tshi khou isa zwine ra
nga kona u zwi ita navho uri ri sumbedzane uri ikonomi
yashu ri nga i isa hani phanḓa.

English:
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: So, when we go to
these conferences, we just don’t go to show our pretty
faces. We go with a clear intention of winning business
opportunities, investment opportunities for our beloved
Republic of South Africa. We don’t just go to meet people
and have meals and drink wine. We are focus on winning
investment opportunities. So, in time I will be able to
showcase to you some of those. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]

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Question 23:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, hon
Meshoe, the ongoing revelations about allegations of
corporate capture of public institutions have undoubtedly
and understandably undermined public confidence in our
country, our country’s leaders and our institutions. We
have to admit that. They have tended to erode confidence.
That too, we must admit.

It is therefore essential that these allegations, as I
said, are thoroughly investigated as a matter of urgency,
through a comprehensive, transparent and credible
process.

As I indicated earlier, this should include the
establishment of a judicial commission of inquiry.
Allegations of criminal conduct should also be
investigated by the relevant law enforcement agencies, so
that the law can take its course without fear or favour.

Efforts to promote ethical, moral leadership, which is
what you asked, need to be strengthened throughout the
country. This is an ongoing process that requires the

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attention of all of us, not just a select few people.
Each one of us, you and I, are included in this.

In fact, you will find honest, capable and committed
leaders across the South African society, in all
communities, in all sectors, in government and in the
political sphere. There are leaders who are doing
excellent work to build a better South Africa and improve
the lives of our people.

These include elected officials, public servants,
community leaders and civil society activists. Now is the
time for these people to come to the fore and to get
engaged in what we call, active citizenry, as called for
also by the National Development Plan.

They must speak out against practices that undermine one
of our key values, which are the rule of law, the
integrity of our public institutions and the responsible
use of our public resources.

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They need to work to expose wrongdoing, ensure
accountability and, where necessary, take whatever
corrective measures necessary.

These leaders need to demonstrate to our people that
there are ethical leaders in this country who are
prepared to take up their interests and concerns. These
leaders need to give our people a good measure of hope
and encouragement in their ability to lead from the front
with honesty and integrity.

This is not a responsibility that falls on one person. It
falls on all our shoulders. It falls on all of us sitting
here. It is the responsibility, which I would like to
suggest we take seriously, as elected leaders of our
people. That is what we need to demonstrate. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker and Deputy President, we often
hear of political leaders who step down from office, due
to scandals and corruption caused by their lack of moral
integrity, particularly in the USA, Europe, Asia, etc.
However, in Africa, this is not the case. Voters, who do

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not seem to care about integrity in leadership, allow
corrupt leaders to remain in office.

Our own government has Ministers who also have
allegations of corruption hanging over their heads, but
who choose to remain in office. President Zuma who said
to have about 783 allegations of corruptions against him
is one example.

During your days as the Chairman of the Student Christian
Movement in Turfloop, you always insisted on ethical
leadership. Is that still your position? If yes, how are
you helping your colleagues in Cabinet, including the
President, to be the bastion of ethical leadership? I am
sure you remember that when Mr Mandela was still the
President, he challenged members of the House one day. He
said that young people out there need leaders of
integrity. So, Members of Parliament should be such
leaders. My question is: Are you willing to take that
responsibility of challenging these Members of Parliament
to be good role models to young people out there and to
always overcome the temptation to be corrupt?

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, Rev
Meshoe came short of telling you that we were together at
the University of the North. I was the Chairman of the
Student Christian Movement and he was my dedicated
follower. [Applause.] [Laughter.] Sorry for being
flippant in the afternoon.

I am able to confirm that yes, leaders should be ethical
and demonstrate their commitment to the great values of
integrity and I would willingly and easily call upon all
of us, not so much because of my position, but all of us
collectively, as equal Members of Parliament. That is
what we should be showcasing, particularly to the young
people of our country. They should see that we, as
leaders, are able to be ethical and that we are willing
and determined to do things correctly and live by the
words that we pronounce.

So, I am willing to pronounce that quite openly. I am
glad to see and know that you are also willing to walk
that road. So, without any doubt, I am willing to say
precisely that, Rev Meshoe. Thank you.

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Mr S C MOTAU: Deputy President, let me see if we can put
some flesh on this issue that you have just raised.
J Z 783, the infamous fraud and corruption charges, still
hang over the head of President Jacob Zuma. The stench of
the Nkandla scandal refuses to go away. The devastation
of the Constitutional Court judgement against the
President remains a dark cloud over his misleadership.
All these blemishes bare testimony to the absence of
ethical, moral and just leadership, at the highest level
of your government. Does the Deputy President believe
South Africa can extricate itself from the ethical and
moral decay, highlighted by Mr Kgalema Mothlanthe, of the
current government leaders, and if yes, how?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I
would like to say that we should never try to be holier
than thou, holier than other people. Things like mishaps
in ethical behaviour can happen to anyone and can happen
to any organisation. [Interjections.] When they do
happen, clearly, they need to be properly processed and
addressed and that is the important thing that we should
focus on. [Interjections.]

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In the end, our commitment to the values that are clearly
enshrined in our Constitution should be our lodestar. Our
lodestar should be those values that we have all
subscribed not only to embrace, but to live by them. In
doing so, all of us collectively, as leaders, should
ensure that we give leadership to the country.

Can we live up to that? I would yes. Whenever, for
instance, there are problems, we should pick ourselves up
and live up to those types of values, because the
Constitution of our country has embedded in it those
wonderful, great values. We should all daily, hourly,
weekly subscribe to it and live by it.

So, hon Motau, I would invite you to use the Constitution
for bedtime reading and make sure that it does continue
to be the lodestar of your and my behaviour. We should
ensure that we have the South Africa of our dreams.
[Interjections.] Thank you very much.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Speaker, Deputy President, I must
agree with you. Yesterday, whilst we were paying tribute
to the late Ahmed Mohamed Kathrada, it was once again a

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day for grandstanding and politicking, rather than paying
tribute to a real leader, as if these challenges don’t
exist in other parties. [Interjections.]. You know, there
is another latest corruption scam regarding computers in
the Western Cape with Helen Zille. You know that.

What happens in the African National Congress or any
ruling party does have an impact on the country, as a
whole. It is quite clear that, today, politics is about
hunger, thirst, control and power. That is what it is all
about. Would government ever consider, not now maybe in
five or ten years, an inclusive government that also
attract members from other parties that have skills? And
many of these parties do. In that way, we will have a
more inclusive government so that they can work together
and put the interests of South Africans before their own,
rather than shouting, screaming and abusing each other.
Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, if you
look back in your most recent history, you will find that
the one and sole governing party that our country has had
in the past 23 years, has always sought to promote the

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unity of our nation and has done so in very practical
ways. It started off as a government of national unity
where it said, notwithstanding the fact that we won the
majority vote, we are going to invite other parties, even
our opponents, to govern with us. That served the country
extremely well.

Beyond that, it continues to invite leaders from other
parties to be in the executive so that we not only give
semblance of national unity, but we actually live it,
utilising the talents and capabilities of members from
other parties and include them, together with members
from the governing party to take our country forward.
That has served us extremely well.

Now, that has been, if you like, the mantra of the
governing party over the past 23 years. Going forward,
there is nothing that stops the governing party of the
African National Congress from continuing to do things
like that. Our main aim is to unite all South Africans to
build a united nation and make sure that South Africa
moves forward. We would be willing to utilise the skills

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and the capabilities of South Africans right across the
board, if it means taking our country forward.

So, yes, do you want to watch this space? You can watch
it. We will continue doing what is right for South
Africa.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker, Hon Deputy President, you
sound like you are flogging a dead horse. The brutal
truth is that you are also losing your integrity. Can you
break from the yoke that the President has put on you?
The President is frog-marching us into a state of
hopelessness. Why are you continuing to legitimise his
failed leadership? Why do you allow the President to
slowly diverge from the values that are enshrined in our
Constitution? Why are you continuing to give the future
of the country a death sentence? [Interjections.]

Deputy President, why are you allowing the President to
turn you into an arme skepsel [poor creature] Deputy
President?

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I
don’t know what the actual question is. [Interjections.]
I don’t have my Afrikaans dictionary to remember what an
arme skepsel [poor creature] is. [Laughter] All I can say
is that I am not a skepsel [creature]. So, I am not an
arme skepsel [[poor creature] and that is the answer that
I will be willing to give to hon Plouamma. Thank you very
much.

Question 24:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker,
General Motors first conveyed its decision to withdraw
from South Africa to the government on 16 May 2017, two
days before the workforce was informed and the company
made a public statement to this effect. General Motors
indicated at the time that the company was in advanced
negotiations regarding the sale of some of General
Motors’ assets to Isuzu. General Motors’ decision comes
on the back of sustained efforts by government in recent
years to assist the company.

The company informed us that it has not performed well in
the domestic market recently both in terms of production

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and sales. The manner and the timing of the decision to
withdraw from South Africa did not allow any meaningful
intervention prior to the decision. Nevertheless, an
urgent process has been put in place by the Department of
Trade and Industry to engage both General Motors and
Isuzu with a view to ensure everything possible is done
to support the production of the Isuzu vehicles in South
Africa. They will also explore the possibility that a new
investor can take over the part of the General Motors
facility not sold to Isuzu to produce other vehicles,
possibly in another market segment or as a contract
manager.

An announcement will be made in this regard in due
course. The lesson which emerges from all this experience
is that global automotive industry is highly dynamic and
competitive market in which companies make decisions that
are based on global strategies and considerations. We are
told that the decision by General Motors is informed by
its global strategy which includes exiting other markets
such as Australia and India.

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Increasing competitive global market countries compete
for both investment and production in the context of
decisions that are made by global manufacturers. This is
precisely why government is engaged in an automotive
policy review and strategy process where we are working
closely with a wide range of companies and industry
associations. This process will develop a post-2020
automotive master plan which will serve before Cabinet
later this year and through this we will be able to
ensure that we have a master plan that will be able to
serve the economy of our country in good measure. Thank
you very much.

IsiZulu:
Nk L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Somlomo waleNdlu ehloniphekile,
ngizibongele nakuSekela Mongameli ohloniphekile
ngempendulo yakhe anginikeza yona. Kodwa, yini enye
engenziwa uHulumeni ukusiza bonke abasebenzi abangase
noma balahlekelwe yimisebenzi ngenxa yokuthi asibanga
khona isikhathi esanele sokuxoxisana phecelezi amanegotiations.

English:

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Hon Deputy President, is there any penalty to this
company for such a behaviour within the automotive
industry policy to prevent or any existing policy related
to that to prevent a repeat of the similar situation.

IsiZulu:
Ngizibongele Somlomo mama.

IsiZulu:
USEKELA MONGAMELI WASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, mangithi
lenkinga esibhekene nayo yokuthi i-General Motors ivale
imisebenzi yayo noma idayise ibhizinisi layo izokwenza
ukuthi abasebenzi abaningana balahlekelwe yimisebenzi.
Yonto esiphatha kabi leyo ngoba into esiyifunayo wukuthi
abasebenzi bakuleli lakithi bangalahlekelwa yimisebenzi.
Inyunyana yabo i- National Union of Metal Workers of South
Africa, NUMSA, okwamanje ikhulumisana nayo i-General
Motors ukubonisana ukuthi kungenziwani ukuthi lemisebenzi
eminingi, kwakuthiwe kungaba wu-900 yabasebenzi, ukuthi
ingalahleki yonke.

Uhulumeni wona ngokusebenzisa [through] uMnyango
Wezabasebenzi [Department of Labour] uzozama ukuthi laba

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basebenzi abazolahlekelwa yimisebenzi bathole ezinye
izindlela, mhlawumbe bangaqeqeshwa kwamanya amakhono
[skills] abangake bangene kuwo bakwazi ukuthi baye
kwezinye izindawo bathole imisebenzi. Okukhona ukuthi uma
i-Isuzu izothenga enye ingxenye yalemboni [factory]
mhlawumbe kuzoba ngconywana, mhlawumbi ngeke abasebenzi
abaningi balahlekelwe imisebenzi

English:
When it comes to the issue of a penalty, I don’t know if
my colleagues in Trade and Industry have given
consideration to this. It is certainly something because
I think our main complaint about this is that the
shortness of the notice that was given to us, firstly, as
government and thereafter to the union is something that
does not sit comfortably with us, because much as it is a
decision that is taken after global investment and
manufacturing or production considerations, it is
something that General Motors has been talking about over
a long time in their own boardrooms, and the number of
other structures to spring this on us with the
consequence of almost 900 people losing their jobs. It is
something that we are unhappy about.

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I think from what you are saying is something that we
should safeguard ourselves against that there should be
some measure of a protection that we should give once to
ourselves but particularly to workers. Things like these
need to be done with a pre-notice and pre-warning so that
people have an opportunity of rearranging their own lives
and rearranging work opportunities that they may well
have. Therefore, I think maybe in the master plan
agreement is something that needs to be looked at. I am
certainly open that we should examine that because it is
incorrect that a decision is taken and imposed on us
within two days, then is announced and it destabilises
the lives of so many people and in the end the vulnerable
workers who have nothing else to turn to find themselves
in the street. It is certainly an idea that we should
take forward.

IsiZulu:
Ngiyakubonga ukuthi lombono uwubekile etafuleni.
Ngiyathemba ukuthi singakwazi ukuthi sibonisane ngawo.
Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]

English:

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Mr G CACHALIA: The fact of the matter, Deputy President,
notwithstanding the spin the Minister has put on the
matter of General Motors’, GM, withdrawal from the
country and echoed by you is an evidence by General
Motors own media statement which says, and I quote:

We determine that the continued or increased
investment in manufacturing in South Africa would not
provide General Motors the expected returns of other
global investment opportunities.

It is therefore as clear as mud that GM has lost all
faith in South Africa’s economy under President Zuma and
Minister Davies. Does the Deputy President agree that
General Motors’ decisions are directly attribute to the
mismanagement of our economy by the ANC and its
President, and what if anything does the Deputy President
choose or intend to do about this?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I
think it is really hugely dishonest to ascribe General
Motors’ departure or intention to depart or sale of their
business to the way the governing party is managing the

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economy. They have done exactly the same thing with India
and Australia. Maybe hon Cachalia will announce here and
now that that two is due to the mismanagement of the
Indian economy and the Australian economy by those
governments. [Applause.] I want to know whether he is
willing to do that. I think it is really cheap and it is
dishonest to be making such a statement. If you want to
ascribe any fault to the way, yes, we are managing the
economy you should not choose this one. You can choose
many others.

That having been said, South Africa stands out throughout
the world as one of the best investment destinations for
the automotive industry. We have in this country
Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, BMW,
and you name them. They all come here. Why do they come
here? They come here because we have created a good
investment climate and environment. They also come here
because we’ve got skilled workers. The workers in the
automotive industry in this country build and create the
best Mercedes-Benzes that are exported to the United
States, my friend. [Applause.] That is what we do in this

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country. In a number of cases they have won awards that
far exceed even German workers.

South African workers go to Germany to showcase their
capability in creating a weary good Mercedes-Benz. I
don’t know what car you are driving. Maybe if you drive a
BMW and a Mercedes-Benz car you will know that it has
been built by South African workers and it is a very good
car. Therefore, we have a very good investment climate
and none of the automotive investors will ascribe those
types of reasons that you are putting forward to their
investment decisions. This country offers the best
investment environment for automotive matters. I want you
to remember that. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon Speaker, through you to the
Deputy President, I agree the GM’s decision to withdraw
was purely a business cut back from their part. As a
matter of fact, the automobile industry is by far
receiving more grounds and more incentives than any other
industry in South Africa and I have to agree with you.
The Motor Industry Development Programme, MIDP, was also
a success in this country. However, you will agree, sir,

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that the excess of cost of vehicles cuts across not only
families, but also through the industry because every
business needs vehicles to do their business.

Why don’t they allow mostly middle class taxpayers to
maintain their industrialist huge profit margin? I will
give you an example. The automotive industrial policy
which forces us to pay merely double the international
market price for vehicles and prohibit South Africa to
import cheaper, in other words used in the roadworthy
vehicles from overseas. Why do we pay import duties on
taxes and then taxes again on the duties for car
accessories? Government will impose a 100% ... [Time
expired.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time for the follow-up
question has expired. The hon Deputy President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I
did not finally get the drift. However, the drifts I got
were on two issues. Maybe the first suggestion I would
like to make to hon Esterhuizen is that maybe he should
find time with great thanks and respect to have coffee

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with hon Cachalia and explain to him in really simple
terms how good our auto industry is, because hon Cachalia
does not seem to get it. It needs a person like you who
has grasped the importance of our auto industry to
explain to him.

Hon Esterhuizen, I got the drift of what you were
raising, the issue of the high taxes and the issue of the
excessive crisis of our vehicles - that is certainly
something that obviously can be looked at. The Department
of Trade and Industry would, in my view, be willing to
look at the tax structure around the vehicles. It can be
sad that the vehicles in our country turn to be quite
expensive whereas they are cheaper in other countries I
have found. Therefore, it is something that can elicit a
conversation with the Minister of Trade and Industry.
Thank you very much.

Mr M S MBATHA: Mr Ramaphosa, I will put it to you that
one of the decisions that warrant General Motors to leave
may not necessarily be economical, it maybe political.
General Motors is expanding in America and they are

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coming back to the local territory which is basically as
an American company. They want to increase American jobs.

Now, my question is, we have hosted them for years, in
fact, they were hosted by the apartheid government before
a democratic order. We have awarded them incentives worth
millions. I would like to know what the conditions of
these incentives were, because these are public funds
aimed at stimulating growth, job creation and making the
relationship between South Africa and these companies’
mutual. It cannot be that out of those agreements
somebody can just pack and go unilaterally.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I did not quite get
the question but the tail end of it, no, no ...
[Interjections.]

Mr M S MBATHA: Can I repeat the question?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No.

Mr M S MBATHA: Yes, but why are you saying that you did
not get the question?

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The SPEAKER: No, hon Mbatha, please. Proceed, Deputy
President.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The gist of what he
was asking as I understood it was the terms of the
agreements that we have with these automakers who get
such incentives and subsidies from us and that it should
not be acceptable that they unilaterally just up and go.
That is how I understood it. I think clearly that the
terms of those agreements is a matter that needs to be
looked at very closely and Trade and Industry can
enlighten us on that. Possibly, maybe we had never really
countenance the fact that any of these investors that we
are giving incentives would just up and go just suddenly
and maybe that has not been fully covered.

The experience that we now have is going to enlighten us
and make us wiser when it comes to having to deal with
the master plan that we are working on to 2020.
Therefore, those are the types of considerations that we
are going to have in mind. We are going to want to
protect our workers, to protect the industry and also to
protect the investment that we are making because we are,

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if you like, coinvestors and this industry because they
get subsidies and they get a lot of assistance and
through that they are then able to make these cars and
make a profit. Therefore, we also need to look at how we
can protect ourselves as workers and as a country. Thank
you very much, hon Mbatha, we will take it up. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: That concludes questions to the Deputy
President. I thank the hon the Deputy President. That
also concludes the business for the day and the House is
adjourned.

Questions Concluded.

The House adjourned at 16:59.


 

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