Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 08 Aug 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY CHAMBER TUESDAY, 8 AUGUST 2017
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TUESDAY, 08 AUGUST 2017
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 14:07.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed with today’s business, I wish to make the following announcements.
NEW MEMBER SWORN IN
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Mr M H Redelinghuys has
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been filled by the nomination of Mr D R Ryder with effect from 01 July 2017. [Applause.] The member has taken oath in the Deputy Speaker’s office. We welcome you, hon member.
CONDOLENCES
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: On behalf of presiding officers, I also wish to convey our heartfelt condolences to the families and friends of two ANC Members of Parliament who passed away, Mr Trevor BONHOMME and Mr Timothy Khoza. May we stand and observe a moment of silence in respect of the hon members.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the House will schedule... [Interjections.] ... hon members, order, order, order [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, can you please call that person to order, we don’t need him here.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please... [Interjection.]
Mr G A GARDEE: He’s in the gallery, he ... where are the bouncers? Can you bounce on him please? [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members... please take your seat, take your seat. Hon members, the House will schedule condolence motions in this regard in due course. We also wish other members of the Portfolio Committee on Basic Education who were injured in a car accident a speedy recovery. They are hon N Gina, hon I M Ollis and hon C N Majeke.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The only item on the Order Paper is a motion in the name of the hon Leader of the Opposition. Hon Maimane... [Interjection.]
Mr N F SHIVHAMBU: Deputy Speaker, prior to... can we... because this motion of no confidence is going to be decided by secret ballot, we have two people in the House who are not allowed to vote because they are not Members of Parliament, can we propose
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that they excuse themselves for this process and then we participate as Members of Parliament? [Interjections.] That is Mr Nhleko and Ms Mokonyane. So, they must excuse themselves because we are going to engage in affairs that involve Members of Parliament and the two of them are not Members of Parliament. Can they excuse us so that we’re able to deal with business of the day? Remove a person in their absence, please. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, thank you very much. Hon members, the business of the house will be conducted by the Chair appropriately and at appropriate times, if necessary we’ll make the necessary procedures. [Interjections.] Hon Maimane. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes! Please take your seat hon member. Yes, hon Singh!
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Mr N SINGH: Hon Deputy Speaker, yesterday we made a request that the Chip Whips Forum meet, and we did meet earlier on today. We agreed that the procedure for voting will be amended and distributed to all members. I’d like to know when that is going to be done because the debate is now starting?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the people who know that will give an indication to you soon. They will be able to do that soon, it’s okay.
MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE IN MR J G ZUMA AS PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA, IN TERMS OF SECTION 102(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA, 1996
(Draft Resolution)
The Leader of the Opposition moved: That the House resolves, in terms of section 102(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996, that it has no confidence in Mr J G Zuma as President of the Republic of South Africa on the grounds of his
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continued irrational, irresponsible and reckless leadership, and that:
his decision to recall former Minister of Finance Pravin Gordhan and former Deputy Minister of Finance Mcebisi Jonas from an international road show which was aimed at increasing investor confidence had the exact opposite effect which led to the plummeting of the Rand;
the President’s continued reckless and irrational behaviour surrounding the position of Minister of Finance had resulted in an economic crisis, which was previously seen when Minister Nene was summarily fired from the position in December 2015;
President Zuma deliberately chose to repeat his actions, which is evidence that he has lost all sense of rationality and sound judgement;
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these actions resulted in job losses and would thus be most profoundly felt by the poor and most vulnerable citizens in South Africa; and
his derelict leadership has resulted in a collapse of public confidence in the President of the Republic of South Africa, created a government at war with itself and ultimately undermined efforts to restore confidence in the South African economy.
MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE IN MR J G ZUMA AS PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA, IN TERMS OF SECTION 102(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA, 1996
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, hon members, comrades, fighters, democrats, fellow South Africans...
Setswana:
... bagaetsho dumelang. [...compatriots, good day.]
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English:
Last week we lost a colleague and a committed parliamentarian. Those who worked closely with hon Timothy Khoza spoke of his big heart and his concern for others. [Interjections.] He died while performing his duty and that is how we will remember him, committed to the people and always trying to make a difference. Our thoughts and prayers are with him, his family and his party at such a difficult time. [Applause.]
Hon members, we may represent different parties in this House, but we are united in our love for our country and our loyalty to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. We may have different opinions, but we are not enemies. All of us sitting in this House, black, white, Indian and coloured, want South Africa to work. To be the prosperous nation we know it can be.
I became a Member of Parliament because I wanted to serve the people of this country. I wanted to make a difference. And I know that most of you who are sitting here are here for the same reason, you want to do what is right, what is just and what is
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honourable. We have all travelled a different journey to get here.
Growing up in Soweto in the 1980s I witnessed, like many of you, the sharp end of Apartheid brutality. And I swore that I would do what I could, with what I have, to fight oppression in this country.
I never imagined that one day I would be here, in this Parliament, fighting a new form of oppression, a corrupt system that keeps our people imprisoned in poverty. If you had told me that one day our democratically elected President would end up corrupted and captured by a criminal syndicate, I would’ve never believed you. But here we are. We’ve all travelled along different roads, but we’ve arrived at the same destination.
We all have a choice today to do what is right, what is just and what is honourable. I know many of you are tired of talking about President Zuma. So am I. and I’m tired of speaking about the Guptas. That is why we tabled this motion, so that we can
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move on from this disastrous chapter and focus on the things that matter for our people.
Hon members, this is a historic day. Indeed, since the dawn of our democracy, the stakes have never been higher. Our state has been captured. And we know this from the hundreds of thousands of emails that have been leaked. We know this from the testimony of members and former members of this House.
As a result, our economy is in recession and our country has been downgraded to junk status. While the corrupt quickly exchange their stolen rands into dollars, it is ordinary South Africans who are hit hard.
Fellow South Africans, I have seen with my own eyes the effects of poverty in communities across South Africa. I have spoken to people who collect spoiled meat from rubbish dumps to feed their families. I have met mothers who feed their children on sugar water and boiled weeds. I’ve heard of parents abandoning their
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babies, and I have heard of good people turning to crime out of sheer desperation.
Setswana:
Bagaetsho, matshelo a Maaforika borwa a ntse a nna boima. Gompieno borotho bo tura go feta maabane. Malapa a mantsi ga a sa tlhole a na le toro ya go nna le ntlo ya bone mo Aforika Borwa. Ba ba bonang ditšhelete tsa mphiwafela tsa setšhaba ba ntse ba tswelela go sokola ka gonne ditšhelete tseo tsa mphiwafela ga di kgone go tokafatsa matshelo a bone.
English:
The value of pensions and savings is shrinking.
IsiXhosa:
Ayisekho imali yokuthenga iincwadi zokufundisa (text books); ayisekho imali yokwakha amagumbi okufundisela kwaye ayisekho nemali yokuthutha abantwana ibase esikolweni (scholar transport).
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English:
In fact, what is even more tragic is that more and more South Africans are running out of opportunity to find work.
Fellow South Africans, hon members, the choice that is before us is a simple one. Either we will we allow one family, aided and abetted by our President, to take everything we have from us. Or will we, on behalf of the people of South Africa who elected us, take our country back. The choice before us today is not between yellow, red or blue; it is not about party politics; it is not about which party tabled the motion or who didn’t. Today our choice is between right and wrong; between good and evil. Today we do what is best for our country, or we turn our back on it.
When we vote today, let us recall the oath of office that each of us took when we stood here, that oath says:
I swear that I will be faithful to the Republic of South Africa, and will obey, respect and uphold the Constitution and all other law of the Republic. I solemnly promise to
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perform my functions as a member of the National Assembly to the best of my ability.
All of us sitting in this House said those words right here in this House. But saying those words will mean nothing if today we don’t put our words to action.
Are we, hon members, prepared to uphold the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and all other the laws, as we swore that we would? [Applause.]
Voting in secret today means none of us have an excuse. We are all free to follow our conscience. If we fail to use this opportunity, history and many South Africans will judge us harshly. And the people of South Africa may never forgive us.
I hold out the hope that there are enough people in this House today ... [Interjection.]
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I’m sorry hon member, please take your seat. Hon members, can I plead with you that we lower our voices so that the speaker can be heard. [Interjections.] We would like every speaker who’s going to speak here to be listened to. This is presumably a very important debate. Thank you very much. Go ahead hon member.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I would hope that there are enough people in this House who will put politics aside and do what is right for the people who elected them.
We are encouraged by the words of former Minister Gordhan when he says:
I think the president should move aside and let somebody take over this country and reset the course; so that we can fulfil the kind of aspirations that Mandela and his generation had for South Africa.
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Hon Gordhan, will you play your part today in resetting the course history?
We are encouraged by the words of hon Hanekom when he says “Most MPs are senior members of the ANC committed to South Africa and our movement. They’ll do what is best for our country.”
We take hearts Ntate (Mr) Ramaphosa, from your words when you spoke about state capture... [Interjection.]
Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member? Hon member, please take your seat. Order! Hon members, please, order. Yes hon member, what are you rising on?
Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Speaker, hon Maimane has failed to deal with Hellen Zille, so he can’t tell us anything. [Interjections.]
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, that’s not a point of order. Proceed, hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, can we allow the speaker to proceed because if we do that we will take on time that we should be deserving... I understand your concern. Can we proceed without allowing the debate... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I rise on Rule 66: Members not to be interrupted, and particularly by spurious points of order. Now, the hon member there does this in every debate. And I would you to urge him to refrain, in this important debate, from making himself look foolish and this House look foolish with his spurious points or order that are not points of order in terms of our rules. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
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The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Ntate (Mr) Ramaphosa you said “I will not keep quiet and remain numb to what this means for our country and its people. We will not protect those in our own ranks who are involved in these actions.”
Ntate (Mr) Ramaphosa, today, will you put your words to your actions?
And then there was the frank admission by Honourable Blade Nzimande when he recalled the events that led up to Polokwane in 2007. In fact, he said:
Had we known that our revolution and our struggle were going to be handed over to an immigrant Indian family going by the name of Gupta, we would have behaved differently. We would not have thought that Zuma was the right person to lead the ANC and to lead the alliance or the country, for that matter.
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Baba (Mr) uNzimande, are you prepared today to correct your mistakes of ten years ago in this House?
We were moved by the brave words of hon Khoza when she told President Zuma that “South Africa no longer needs you. Uphold the ANC’s constitution, uphold the country’s Constitution and step aside.” [Applause.] Your vote in favour of the motion Mama (Ms) uKhoza is the honourable and ultimate service to the people.
Hon members, these statements reflect what many, if not most, of you feel. Aside from the instructions given to the ANC caucus to follow the party line, who within the ANC and its alliance really wants President Zuma?
Amongst ANC stalwarts, the calls for him to step down have become a deafening chorus, with former presidents speaking out aloud. Former President Motlanthe is on record stating that if he were an MP he’d support the motion to remove President Zuma. [Applause.]
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Former President Thabo Mbeki shared this sentiment when he said “It is obvious and logical that MPs must act in Parliament as the voice of the people, not the voice of the political parties to which they might belong.”
Hon members, I know what Nelson Mandela would have done in this House today. [Interjections.] And you know it too. He once said: “May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears.”
I am asking you today to overcome your fears, to show courage when the people of this country need you the most.
I am asking you today to vote for hope; the hope that we can defeat the corruption that oppresses our people; the hope of a prosperous nation at peace with itself and with the world; the hope that we can make South Africa a better place for our children.
If we do the right thing today, we will give our children a better future that they deserve.
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Vote for your hopes, hon members, not your fears. Do the right thing today. Vote with your conscience, and remove this corrupt and broken President from office. [Applause.]
I plead you, let us put the people of South Africa first and vote to remove Jacob Zuma today. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, His
Excellency the Deputy President, hon Ministers and hon Deputy Ministers, hon members and our guests in the gallery, I greet you all, firstly, we extend our sincere and heartfelt condolences to the families of our comrades, who were also members of this House hon Trevor Bonhomme from Kwazulu-Natal who passed on after a long battle with cancer. And also hon Timothy Khoza from Mpumalanga who died in a car accident while on oversight visit to schools around Paarl. The ANC is much poorer without them, may their souls rest in peace. We also extend our best wishes to the committee members who were injured while on oversight hon Nomalungelo Gina, who is still in hospital, hon
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Cynthia Majeke and Ian Ollis who are recuperating at home – including the driver of the minibus, Mr Meyer.
Hon Deputy Speaker, as we celebrate the Women’s Month, the ANC commits to creating a safe and secure environment for women. The ANC welcomes the Speaker’s decision to opt for a secret ballot. We have always indicated our openness to either a secret or open ballot. Moving forward as parties and a country, we should reflect on whether it is desirable for public representatives to conduct their vote in secret. The inherent danger of such a practice having a potential to use money to influence politics, and the electorate not knowing what their representatives voted for.
Our Constitution, the Rules of the National Assembly and the Joint Rules of Parliament, Chapter 9 institutions and the judiciary ensure that the executive accounts. The President has, at least, four question and answer sessions annually in this House, where Members have a responsibility to scrutinize executive decisions.
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Siswati:
Sekela Somlomo, siyati sonkhe kwekutsi Mengameli unelilungelo ngekweMtsetfosisekelo kwekutsi akhetse emalunga eliKhabhinethi aphindze futsi awantjintje. Kulilungelo lakhe laliniketwe nguMtsetfosisekelo. Singemalunga aKhongolose siyati kwekutsi sikhundla kukhongolose akusibo bukhosi, siyabolekwa. Inkhosi iyatalwa kodvwa tsine siyakhetfwa.
English:
Deputy Speaker, the haste for political showboating and vilification of the President - not robust questioning of the office that is displayed by walk outs each time the President honours his obligations, undermines our responsibility. We are aware of all the issues raised by our society. We acknowledge our mistakes and are committed to correcting them. We aspire to do the right thing. As our former President, uTata Nelson Mandela, explained “I am not a saint, unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying.”
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The May 2017 ANC National Executive Committee, NEC, and lekgotla agreed on a judicial commission of inquiry to investigate all the allegations of state capture. The President has also committed to the establishment of the judicial commission.
This debate is about our integrity as the governing party, public representatives, and the nation, which occurs in an environment where a democratically elected majority - with policies for a radical impetus to a constitutional liberal democracy, is pitted against an insurrectionist opposition anchored on a racial privilege protectionism and narrow populist nationalism.
This motion is their publicly stated intention of regime change. A wish to manipulate the legislature, usurp the Constitution so as to collapse government, deter service delivery and sow seeds of chaos in society to ultimately grab power. A hypocritical opposition, devoid of integrity, disciplines its public representatives for voting with conscience for a service delivery budget. Shame on you!
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It is the same hypocrisy that voted in defense of its Western Cape leader, yet expects the ANC to vote otherwise. We are not sell outs - We know who sent us here and we will vote the ANC.
Siswati:
Siyati sonkhe kwekutsi tinhlangano tetepolitiki kuphela letingenela lukhetfo. Tinhlangano tetepolitiki kuphela letiphumelele elukhetfweni letitfumela emalunga ato kutsi ayotimela ePhalamende, tiwanikete ligunya lokutsi tisebente njani. Njengoba sonkhe sihleli lapha sitfunyelwe tinhlangano tetfu ngekwehlukana. Sonkhe njengoba silapha siphatsiswe (iMAndate) tinhlangano tetfu kutokwenta umsebenti ngendlela leshiwo ngito. Akekho namunye lekangatsi uvota nganembeza wakhe.
Sibonile kwenteka kumasipala iMogale City Municipality emakhansela e-EFF abitiwe kwekutsi atojeziswa. Emakhansela eDA lavote ngekulandzela nembeza wawo abitiwe ahlolwa ngemshini lokhona kubona lokungemanga.
English:
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What a shame on you! Sometimes our hurt is immeasurable, the anguish of the people insufferable, and the propensity of our collective resilience beyond sustainability when tested. At times, the noise is so loud, it deafens even the lucidity of reason. At which point, we seek the easiest and quickest of exits, oblivious to the incalculable costs to ourselves as a people and party, now and into the future. It is yet at this very moment that our individual and collective integrity must propel us to rise above political expediency and personal distastes - assume higher goals our forebears and lodestars set for us as a people. The ANC rejects this motion with the contempt it deserve. I thank you
Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to thank the incoming acting President, Baleka Mbete, for having been courageous enough to take a decision allowing the secret ballot to take place in the National Assembly today. Many in the ANC, including the officials of the ANC have told her not to engage on issues of secret ballot but to offer an open ballot.
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She went against the wishes of the officials of the ANC. We salute her for that.
We are not here today to remove a democratically elected government of the ANC which was voted for by our people in 2014. Whether we like it or not, we must at all times respect the wish of the people. That’s why we are here, to make it very clear that ours today is not against the ANC, but against the father of Duduzane. We are here to remove Duduzane’s father, because Duduzane’s father is the most corrupt individual in this country. [Applause.]
I want to say to the comrades in the ANC, we warned you about Nkandla, and you did not listen to us when we spoke about it. In 2016, you lost some of the metros, and your response was, you should have acted better on Nkandla. Your response was, you could have handled this matter differently. And you committed that you were going to improve after those outcomes. From August 2016 to today, there is no single improvement. You have degenerated further. You have become worse than before
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3 August 2016. Now, can you imagine what is going to happen in 2019 if you are going to continue the way you have been going up until today?
We want to say to you, we are not questioning whether the President has powers to appoint a Cabinet or reshuffle it. But we have a problem with a Cabinet that gets reshuffled by people who are not elected. Because, if the Cabinet is reshuffled by the Guptas, then we know that the President is no longer executing his responsibilities. We are rising against the Guptas who are reshuffling Cabinet. We are rising against the Guptas who are appointing the boards of Eskom, Prasa, Transnet, SABC, and SAA. We are rising against the Guptas who have ensured that our economy is downgraded, that our economy is in recession. We are rising against those who have surrendered the people’s power to a family of foreigners. That’s what brings us here today. If the President had executed his responsibilities and respected his oath of office, we would not be here today. We will never call for the removal of an elected President who respects his oath of office.
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So, stop misleading yourselves. Stop telling yourselves a lie. The vote is secret. Your conscience will remain with you. You know we are telling the truth.
We want to say to hon Nkhentsani, you are doing very well in the Energy department. We are unable to say so because of the things you said during Nkandla. You are writing your own history as you sit here. Even if you are going to perform better in the future, we will have a difficulty because of the wrong history you had written. All of you sitting here, individually ... hon Deputy President, you are writing your own history.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...
Mr J S MALEMA: You will be judged according to the history you write for yourself.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... your time has expired.
Mr J S MALEMA: I am saying this to Stella Ndabeni, Pule Mabe ...
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr J S MALEMA: ... all of you, these people will not be here when you are this side.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema ...
Mr J S MALEMA: Protect your future, Stella ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, your time has expired!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... by voting baba uDuduzane out of power. ANC, vote Zuma ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr J S MALEMA: We want ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I warned you that your time had expired.
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Mr J S MALEMA: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, your time has expired! What’s wrong with you? [Interjections.] [Applause.]
PRINCE M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, His Excellency, the Deputy President, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members of this House, I would like, first of all, to thank the Speaker for having used her discretion to allow this debate. I know she gets brickbats most of the time; on this occasion, I think she deserves a bouquet. [Applause.]
The poisonous seed of corruption was sown long before democracy. But its roots silently crept over the threshold, along with a liberated nation. The axe of our highest ideals failed to destroy this strangling vine. Instead, it was nourished, with every secret deal, irregular tender and dishonest word, until we reached the point that the unthinkable became possible: A sitting President lied to Parliament, lied to the people,
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trampled the Constitution, and sold our country to the highest bidder.
Today, we as the custodians of our nation’s wellbeing must act to save South Africa. This motion of no confidence is not against the ANC. We are not here to say the ANC must fall. It is against corruption. It is against state capture. It is against one man.
The President knows that I am deeply uncomfortable speaking against my head of state. People younger than I are more comfortable saying phanzi [down] with Zuma. I cannot say that to an incumbent head of state. I am a patriot and a servant of this country. I believe in respecting the Office of the President, and I have never attacked that office, either publicly or privately.
I believe in protecting the dignity of this highest office of our land, which is why — ten years ago — I proposed separating the position of head of state from that of the head of
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government. That wasn’t done, and now we have reached an impasse.
To protect the dignity of the Office of the President, I am forced to speak against the man who has brought that office into disrepute. [Interjections.]
Today, we must vote with our conscience, or we must face the righteous anger of millions of South Africans. [Interjections.] They won’t keep silent. They will express themselves, not only through marches and protests, but also through the ballot box.
Colleagues, I have heard you saying, “We can’t have our leader recalled by the DA”. But this is not a DA initiative. [Interjections.] Look outside. Look at the people lining the streets of Cape Town and Pretoria, and marching in cities across our nation. [Applause.] These are ordinary South Africans from all political persuasions, including the ANC. Their message is clear.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shenge, I’m afraid your time has expired.
Mr N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, hon members of this House, the NFP wants to convey its condolences to the bereaved families of the departed hon members of this House, and also wish those who are still in hospital a speedy recovery.
Today’s debate is historic. Today’s vote is crucial and critical. Never has South African society been so mobilised. No matter how the vote goes, South Africans from all walks of life want change and action.
South Africans of all persuasions feel betrayed, rejected and mockery in the eyes of their counterparts across the continent and other nations. Day by day, they see their hopes of a productive, thriving, rich, caring and prosperous South Africa dashed! These masses of our people feel the pinch. That tells us how important decisions taken in this House are.
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The NFP notes that various sectors and organs of our society have combined their effort and have repeatedly spoken with one voice against maladministration, lack of service delivery and graft that continues that continue to define this administration. Perennial challenges seem to engulf the government of the day and show themselves in service delivery protests.
Many South Africans are languishing in abject poverty, hunger, and unemployment, while a lack of basic resources like water and sanitation, electricity, housing, and roads defines their being. Economic resources keep shrinking and our economy is not growing, thus resulting in huge job losses and relegating the majority of South Africans to utter despair. Most South Africans go to bed with empty stomachs, yet corruption from top to bottom is so rife and heavily embedded in government.
We, however, cannot sit back and think that mother nature will bring a prosperous South Africa on a silver platter. We must do
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something and every opportunity that avails itself must be used responsibly.
Our society is the one whose foundations have been shaken. South Africa becomes a more polarised nation on a daily basis. The rich become richer and the poor become poorer.
The National Freedom believes that we have to work together as South Africans. Unity is not an option; it is a socio-political imperative! We need to inculcate a new spirit of patriotism in our people, so that they come together, air their views and dissent, march and picket, but protect the physical structures and resources in our communities.
The National Freedom Party believes that we must mobilise and galvanise all sectors of our society. All patriots must stand together and speak with one voice, and creatively come forward with new strategies and techniques to help constructively build and change our society for the better.
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This is our country! This is our children’s country! We must protect this country for generations to come! We cannot behave as if we do not care!
For some time now, opposition parties have been speaking, some ANC members have been speaking, civil society has been speaking, and everyone has been speaking about graft and the abhorrent state capture in this country. It seems it fell on deaf ears.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...
Mr N M KHUBISA: We want to say we must heed the words of Nelson Mandela ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... your time has expired.
Mr N M KHUBISA:
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Let us never be unmindful of the terrible past from which we come, using that memory not as a means to keep us shackled to the past in a negative manner ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Khubisa, you are following a bad example.
Mr N M KHUBISA:
... but rather as a joyous reminder of how far we have come.
Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, this is a bad habit you are following.
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members, fellow South Africans, following the success of the UDM by creating a safety net for all members of Parliament through
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voting by secret ballot we have to cease the opportunity to put the people and the country first. In this regard, let us vote against the abuse of power, the infamous bogus intelligence report and the abuse of the resources of our people. Let us vote against the threats to our sovereignty and the constitutional order. Let us vote against Mr Zuma, the chief architect of the state capture.
As if that is not enough, Mr Zuma had courage to mislead this House about a bond to his private house. Later on he went to the NCOP to mislead that House too. He said the Public Protector never gave him a fair chance to respond to allegations against him, yet he was given no less than four hours. In years to come the history we are writing today shall not only be read and taught but it will also determine the socio-economic and political future of our country.
Whatever we do this afternoon, it must be for and about South Africa. The electorate has bestowed upon us a responsibility to collectively stay through to the vision, mission and goals of
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our country as espoused in our Constitution. We are also called upon to live up to the values and ideals of those who came before us and founded the constitutional democracy. Accordingly, these challenges must propel us to do everything within the confines of the law and redirect the downward trajectory that has visited our country under the leadership of Mr Zuma into an opportunity to recapture the historic mission of our nation and Constitution.
IsiXhosa:
Okokugqibela, ndinandlalele, mna ndidlala apha embindini kwezopolitiko, ndinilungiselele yonke into. Fakani amanqaku nina ngoku kuba akusekho naloo mgcinizipali phaya. Iimpondo zihleli zodwa. Fakani ibhola. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Mr P P MABE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Deputy President of the republic...
Sepedi:
Bapedi ba re: “Ngwana a llela nakana ya mokhure sehla o mo nee.”
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English:
Today we are going to give it to our modern day fanatics of fame and fortune, the DA who consistently want to appear as the authors of the moral script and custodians of good conduct in society. In the DA the word revolution does not exist.
Everything they do is guided by opportunism, lust and desperation for fame. Our movement, the ANC, has led the charge in liberating the People of South Africa and leading the rest of society to a right path, one that has always been about reconstruction and development.
We are entering this debate of yet another frivolous and fruitless Motion of No Confidence to primarily attempt to the essence that this motion is grounded on. Any serious motion brought against a President duly elected by the NA, specifically one that impinges on the character of the President needs to be well researched with necessary empirical data and backed by substantiated and verified reports and not gossips and hearsays doctored to appear as facts.
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The worst thing to happen is, believing in your own propaganda, a path the DA seems to be following. As Thomas Sankara has it, we in the ANC, the movement of the people are not against progress but we do not want progress that is anarchic and criminally neglecting the rights of others.
We will continue to draw strength from our forebears and with one such being Tata Nelson Mandela. His words of wisdom continue to resonate with our efforts to build a country for all. For the benefit of the proposals of this frivolous motion who are clearly guided by the destruction and a greater will to try everything to undermine what has been done including approaching the courts with the aim of liquidating the people’s revolution. Isithwalandwe Tata Nelson Mandela warned:
It is so easy to break down and destroy. The heroes are those who make peace and build.
There is no right-thinking movement rooted amongst the people, driven by the greater love for humanity which can vote in favour
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of entrenching minority interests and extracting a people- centred government from power. Today, we are taking full control of this debate, performing to the fullest and without a hint of doubt our leadership role including dictating on what needs to happen.
What are confronted with as the nation that requires ANC leadership? We have before Parliament the 2016 state of capture report from the previous Public Protector which this Parliament is beginning to apply its mind on. Thanks to the ANC leadership in Caucus. In applying our minds, we are well aware that the state of capture report was concluded rapidly, containing very serious findings and recommending very specific remedial action. In this regard, our President of the ANC and that of the Republic is already leading the charge undertaking the process to establish a judiciary commission of enquiry with rigour and honour. Its conclusions on the allegations made will have a measure of credibility. [Interjections.]
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The outrage in public over the levels of perceived and real corruption must be urgently addressed by this Parliament. As public representatives led by the ANC and with the support of other political parties, we have already initiated a process that will allow complete expression by all political parties as representatives of our people. This process allows for the necessary examination, scrutiny and testing of the veracity of allegations contained in various reports currently before Parliament. It is the existence of these various multiparty instruments within Parliament, like the ad hoc committees that are necessary to asset accountability and our continued oversight role to regularly attend to instances of wrong doing and consolidate good governance.
Consistently with our resolve to represent all of our people fairly, where Parliament might not have necessary capacity will regularly differ such to structures in our society that are set up to investigate. This will make the public interest, our democracy, our Constitution; the programme of government
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informed by the governing party must succeed since its design is to improve the lives of our people and give them secure future.
Already the Portfolio Committees of Public Enterprise, Home Affairs and the Standing Committee of Public Accounts are leading the way with the Department of Transport and Mineral Resources set to follow. So, while the DA’s motion seeks to dislodge the state President and de facto his appointed Cabinet, bring about a collapse in the Executive and serve their stated desire to force the country to go to the early national and provincial elections, the ANC positions to say the nation is speaking and has spoken and having listened, we are responding. [Interjections.]
The public correctly hates corruption, theft and other forms of public and private sector in real corruption and as a public representative we are duty bound to investigate these allegations both real and perceived. We must bring experts and analysts to test the veracity of allegations and to come into a determination on what must happen to those who are implicated
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irrespective of who it is. As progressive democrats allow a fair, open and due process to take place.
While as public opinion is critical, we which public representatives must appreciate and respect, the court of public opinion must not be allowed to become the bench mark of decision making as this will collapse the structures that the state, the Constitution and the law have put in place to test the veracity of allegations, claims and counter claims. [Applause.] This is even more important today where social media seeks to influence the outcomes even without subjecting itself to the test of veracity. The ANC will not lean to opposition parties especially you and remove its President.
As we know that these opposition parties are working overnight to dislodge the ANC and extract it from power without following due processes. This is another special coup d’état. This motion is nothing else but a test of character. We refuse to be directed the DA and the rest of the opposition. Parliament must act on the balance of evidence and not on the allegations of the
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DA motion. Establish wrong doing and then act and not the other way round otherwise everyone can see that this is merely opportunistic. The Constitution requires that we, as parliamentarians apply our minds.
The antithesis of this is to speculate and indulge in generalities. The fact that we are being asked to commit ourselves to something which opposition parties do not apply themselves to in their own leadership is common cause. We want say to those parties which include the moving of today’s motion of no confidence that you will never convince any conscious MP by being yourself inconsistent. Courts of law apply this principle but today you want to lower the standards to govern the country for your benefit as the party. Let me come to the other part of the DA motion which speaks to the matters of economic concern which are directly attributed to the President. It is important that you listen because you are going to learn few things. [Interjections.] We will never vote to remove the ANC from power. We are going to consistently educate you on what the ANC has done. [Time expired.]
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Afrikaans:
Mnr P G GROENEWALD: Agb Adjunkspeaker, die vraag wat ons vir onsself moet vra is: Wanneer kan die mense van Suid-Afrika vertroue hê in ’n President? Die mense kan vertoue hê in ’n President wanneer daardie President in die belange van die mense optree. Wanneer ’n President bereid is om verantwoordelikheid en aanspreeklikheid te aanvaar vir die dade van die regering of die dade wat hy toelaat, kan ons sê dat dit ’n verantwoordelike President is waarin mense vertroue het.
English:
However, what we have in South Africa is a President who is constantly doing blame shifting. It is never the fault of the President; it is always someone else’s fault. It is always about shifting the blame. If the economy does not grow, then it is because of white monopoly capital. It is about shifting the blame. That is what you are doing.
I want to say to the hon members of the ANC today, ... [Interjections.] ... If you do not ... [Interjections.] Listen
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carefully. If you do not give the support to this motion, and remove the President, who is a blame shifter, then you say to the people of South Africa that the problem is not the President, the real problem is the ANC. That is what you say. Then the ANC government must be replaced. That is going to happen.
I also want to say to the hon members of the ANC, you must listen very carefully. [Interjections.] I am a realist when it comes to politics. I want to say to the hon members of the ANC that the choice today is not only a choice for or against the motion. There is an alternative - abstain. If you ... I understand that you must protect your party. If you want to prove to the people of South Africa that you do listen to their needs, then I am asking you to abstain from this vote and give a message to your President to say that you don’t have confidence in him. [Interjections.] You have the choice.
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The Freedom Front Plus will support this motion of no confidence because we don’t have any confidence in a blame shifter for a President. I thank you.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Hon Deputy Speaker, within the confines of Robben Island, the leading lights of our movement, the African National Congress, taught us that the struggle that we were waging was not a sectarian struggle; it was a struggle for the people of South Africa to enjoy democracy and a better life for all. Those stalwarts that thought us included the late Walter Sisulu, Nelson Mandela, Govan Mbeki, ... [Interjections.] ...
No, they taught me, not you. You were not there. [Applause.]
They also taught us that it was crucial to always be truthful and honest. As a consequence, one of them said: I have nothing. I am here on Robben Island and I have nothing. I only have prayers and cloths. But a critical thing I have is integrity – the truthfulness to my people. I told them that I will never betray my commitment to them that I will fight for justice.
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Although I have nothing, I am remembered because I have not lied to them.
Firstly, here we have a situation of an individual, a leader who promised our people to uphold the Constitution, but has been found, by the highest court of our country, to have lied to the people because he did not uphold it. If I was asked to vote for such a man, I would refuse. I invite you, the whole House, to not vote for anybody who lied to our people.
Secondly, here we have to decide about an individual entrusted with the budget of our nation who then took that and stole for himself and stole with his friends, the Guptas, and so on. Such an individual has lied to our people. Please, don’t vote for someone like that. All of us must not vote for someone who lied to our people and stole their money.
Thirdly, here we have to vote around the issue of an individual who has been entrusted with the responsibility to govern our country and who has promised before our nation that he would do
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so, and then gave that responsibility to some foreigners to compose our Cabinet, to manipulate it, to give instructions day and night. We have only discovered in the recent weeks that ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Lekota, your time has expired.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Don’t vote for such an individual. Vote for someone who will be trustworthy to the people of our country. I appeal to all of you comrades, this side and that side to vote for someone we can trust. [Time has expired.]
REV K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, hon members, the ACDP welcomes the Speaker’s decision yesterday to allow for today’s motion of no confidence in President Zuma, to be voted on by secret ballot, so that members of this House will be able to vote according to their conscience. If we thought that the Nkandla debacle was scandalous, the extent of revelations of state capture borders on being treasonous. Former Minister of Finance, Pravin Gordhan, has estimated that state capture has cost the country in excess of R100 billion.
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In attempt to persuade ANC members not to support this motion, hon Mthembu stated and I quote: “President Zuma’s removal from office would have the impact of a nuclear bomb and it would be disastrous if it happens.” However, we are saying today that we do not agree with hon Mthembu. We believe the opposite to be the truth. What could be worse than the President enabling large- scale state capture and recklessly reshuffling his Cabinet to benefit the Guptas?
In an open letter to ANC MPs, Rev Moss Ntlha said and I quote: “You stand at a crossroads where you can either choose to continue to put the country through its current trauma or you can choose to focus on the common good by ensuring that this President is impeached as soon as possible.”
On behalf of the ACDP, I want to take this opportunity to commend those courageous ANC MPs who have despite personal threats to their safety, stood their grounds and spoke out against state capture and corruption. [Applause.] It is those courageous MPs who know that this motion is not only about
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opposition politics, but rather about the very soul and survival of our country. That is why we expect all members of this House who love this country to support this motion.
We believe that change must start from the head or all other efforts to restore order will be in vein. We agree with the hon Makhosi Khoza who is on record as saying the following about this motion today, and I quote: “It is a critical step in taking back our democracy, which has been usurped by a suffocating web of greed, corruption and patronage.” She believes this has become the hallmark of the current ANC leadership.
It is disgraceful that some in the ANC are rushing to censure hon Khoza while President Zuma is not being held to account. He has avoided accountability for too long and is no longer fit to hold office.
We have said it in the past in this House and we repeat it again that the writing is on the wall. The President has been weighed on the scales and found wanting. Today, the President must be
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discharged. All members of this House must vote the President out. Thank you.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Deputy Speaker, today the eyes of our nation are on this Parliament, watching and waiting in hope. The people of South Africa have the expectation that we will bring them a new beginning today and we dare not to fail them. I stand here today to make an impassioned plea to members of the ANC not to disappoint the people of our country again. [Interjections.]
In particular, I ask you not to disappoint the millions of South Africans who have stood by you through thick and thin. If you keep Jacob Zuma as President today, many of your faithful supporters will no longer call the ANC their home. It will be difficult for them to leave, but leave they will. When you cast your vote... [Interjections.]
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes hon member. Hon Van Damme, please take your seat.
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on Rule 85: If hon Van Damme can call the President, the hon or Mr or uBaba.
IsiZulu:
Nk P T VAN DAMME: Cha, angizokwazi, mama.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is correct. Go ahead hon member.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: When you cast your vote today hon members, also think of South Africans who struggle everyday to survive. These are South Africans who had hoped that after 23 years of freedom, life would have gotten better. These are the gogos (grandmothers) who live in dire poverty; these are the mothers who cannot feed their children; these are the fathers who are losing their jobs as our economy continues to fail, factories and mines closing down.
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The people of South Africa, hon Deputy Speaker, place in this Parliament their hope that a better South Africa can start today. Setting our country back on track requires the removal of the corrupt system which Jacob Zuma and his insiders have created. Now, it is time to take action against our country’s captured President... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon Van Damme! A point was raised about calling members that.
IsiZulu:
Nk P T VAN DAMME: Ngithe angizokwazi.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you either call him Mr or hon. You know it, it is the rule.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: No President who has stolen the people’s money, violated our Constitution and broken his oath of office should be protected by this august House and its members. Time
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and time again the members on my right have protected this man. They have defended him, they have backed him and there is simply no excuse to do so again.
I listened to ANC speaker after ANC speaker today. Firstly, you could barely mention Mr Jacob Zuma by name and secondly, none of you actually spoke about why this House must vote against this motion of no confidence. You have no confidence in Jacob Zuma, so support this motion! [Applause.]
This is not a motion against the ANC, this is not a motion to remove the ANC government, it is a motion to remove Mr Jacob Zuma! [Applause.]
Let us remember why we are here today. The DA tabled this motion because of Mr Jacob Zuma’s Gupta-sponsored Cabinet reshuffle which tanked our economy and sent our country straight to junk status. We are seeing the consequences of this day after day as life gets more expensive and hundreds of thousands of jobs are lost. [Interjections.]
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Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I would like to address you. It cannot be accepted that an hon member, I raised a point of order earlier on Rule 85, keeps continually and deliberately still doing it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon member corrected herself, hon member. [Interjections.]
Ms Z S DLAMINI-DUBAZANA: No! But she keeps on doing it again. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, order! Hon members, you do not... [Interjections.]
Ms P T VAN DAMME: As more and more details of the Gupta-control of our government emerge, it is clear that Jacob Zuma has sold out our country, including, his own party. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member... [Interjections.]
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Ms P T VAN DAMME: Today, hon members... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You keep on repeating that. [Interjections.]
Ms P T VAN DAMME: What?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now call the President, the President or Mr.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Alright.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You know that.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: As more and more details emerge of the Gupta- control of our government, it is clear that Mr Jacob Zuma has sold our country out including his own party.
Today, hon members, please do the right thing. Please put South Africa first. Please put an end to the Zuma oligarchy. If you will not do it for yourselves as the ANC or the people of this country, do it for the struggle heroes who gave their lives for
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this democracy and must be turning in their graves when they see what has become to a once glorious movement.
The votes we need to put South Africa first sit in your hands as the ANC. This is a rare moment, a chance to do right by the people of South Africa. Can we ignore the millions who are unemployed and losing their jobs? Can we ignore the hungry and the impoverished? Can we ignore the grand corruption of this man, Mr Jacob Zuma? History will judge you as the ANC if you again choose to protect Jacob Zuma. A better South Africa can start today. [Interjections.]
Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order. This side, hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes? Hon Van Damme, take your seat. Yes, hon member?
Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on Rule 85.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ja.
Mr G S RADEBE: The hon member continuously calls the President by his first name.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright.
Mr G S RADEBE: And she knows very well that that is not allowed and I think she is doing it deliberately.
IsiZulu:
Akuthina esabulala u-Van Damme! [Uhleko.]
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Clearly that member does not only want to be the mampara of the month, but the mampara of this term! [Applause.]
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Van Damme. Hon Van Damme. Hon Van Damme. Hon members, when we request you to obey the rules, it is because we want you to respect this House. Are you listening hon Van Damme? Respect this House and its rules. If you show contempt to the rules, that is out of order and you know that.
Do not do that again.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: I said Mr Zuma repeatedly, so I am not sure what he means... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no, do not deny anything, we are listening to you. Please, proceed.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: History will judge you badly as the ANC. If you choose to again protect Jacob Zuma, a better South Africa can start... [Interjections.] Mr Jacob Zuma, I am sorry! A better South Africa can start today, but only if you put South Africa first. The people of South Africa are watching. For once, please, do the right thing, fire Mr Jacob Zuma! [Applause.]
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Deputy
Speaker, hon Deputy President and hon members of this House, today’s session in this House has attracted, in my view, more attention in our country and even abroad, to even surpass the opening of Parliament and the delivery by the President of the state of the nation address.
However, we have been here before - seven times in the last seven years. The only difference today is that the process of voting will be secret. The reason it is secret is because there is some belief among the opposition parties, that some ANC members in this Chamber will vote with them, thus giving a boost to their no confidence motion to oust the President. In other words, they want those ANC members to help them topple the ANC.
The sponsor of this motion, the hon Mmusi Maimane, has said on a number of occasions that President Zuma is not the real target. He is but a small aspect of their strategy. The target is the ANC.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please take your seat. Yes, hon Ndlozi, what are you rising on?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I think the speaker on the platform is deliberately misleading the House in that we are looking to topple the ANC. That is not true. Can you be honest to yourself mama and speak from your conscience. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member that is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Hon Ndlozi, take your seat. That is not a point of order.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: There are other
leaders on the opposition benches here in this House who have expressed a similar sentiment. As hon Julius Malema yesterday said, their goal is to remove the ANC from power. [Interjections.] They want ANC members to help them fulfil that ambition. They believe the time is now ripe for them to further
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exacerbate the problems of the ANC.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is out of order to misrepresent what the Commander-in-Chief, CIC, of the EFF has said. He never said that. [Interjections.] The ANC will remove itself in 2019. We are saying that in this process we are going to remove the father of Edward and Duduzane. [Interjections.] Those are the targets that we are dealing with now. In 2019, we will deal with the elections. So, don’t misrepresent the CIC to argue a narrow point because it is not a reflection of the reality. [Interjections.] He never said ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, take your seat please. That is not a point of order.
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Floyd, I am
sure if you go back ... [Interjections.] ...if you go back to yesterday’s news and the interview you had, you will hear exactly what I have said.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please take your seat. Yes.
Mr J S MALEMA: No, she is lying about me in my presence here. [Laughter.] She is too old to be engaging in such things. [Interjections.] I want to respect her, but she can’t lie about me. [Interjections.] I said yesterday, this is about Edward’s father. It is not about you, it is about Edward’s father.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, hon Malema ...
Mr J S MALEMA: I am focusing on Edward’s father. That is where I am focusing now. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you can’t say the member is lying. You know that, withdraw that. No, withdraw that. You
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can’t say that in the House unless ... [Interjections.] ... Do so.
Mr J S MALEMA: Okay, I withdraw. I withdraw, but you are misrepresenting the truth, mama. Edward’s father. Let’s focus on Edward’s father, please!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you are out of order.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: They want ANC
members to help them fulfil that ambition. They believe the time is now ripe for them to further exacerbate the problems within the ANC. The ANC leadership admitted publicly that the movement was experiencing big problems as a consequence of the wayward behaviour of some of its members. [Interjections.] When the ANC held its 105 Anniversary Celebration on 8 January this year, we told South Africa through the President about those issues. We were open as we publicly admitted that some of our members were involved in corrupt activities. They were encouraging factionalism in our structures and destroying, in the
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circumstances, the unity that our forebears forged among South Africans to construct a country that would belong to all who live in it black and white. We have publicly admitted that the ANC has these days become, indeed, a “house divided”.
Our message on 8 January included the following lines and I quote:
The people have told us that we are too busy fighting each other and we do not pay sufficient attention to their needs. Our own research and interactions with members of the ANC demonstrate clearly that the people abhor the apparent preoccupation with personal gain. People are clear; their main priorities are jobs, fighting crime and corruption. Our task, therefore, is to grow the economy, create jobs and rigorously fight crime and corruption.
The opposition in this House are doing all they can, including sponsoring this motion, further to divide the ANC so that we are a shadow of what we were during the 2019 general election.
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[Interjections.] And, they want the ANC members to help them achieve that goal. The word “conscience” has been bandied about so many times in the past while. People have been calling on members of the ANC to use their conscience to remove President Zuma, as if we ordinarily have no conscience. [Interjections.] However, let me tell you what exactly my conscience is: It reminds me that it was South African voters who sent us to our Parliament to represent them — all of us - ruling party and the opposition. The ANC has received more votes than all the parties in the Chamber and became the ruling party since the first election in 1994. [Applause.] My conscience tells me, we all need to respect the voters that brought us here.
The only way the ANC can lose power is by way of a negative vote at the next general election. We cannot use means other than the people’s votes to try and topple the ANC. Remember, as you yourselves in the oppositions’ benches have said that the ANC is the target and removing the ANC from power is the main aim. You said it. [Interjections.] Let’s go to a general election [Interjections.] Let’s go to a general election. [Applause.] We
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should not use other tactics to get rid of a governing party. [Applause.] That would be akin to a coup.
There is a phrase I also want to introduce in the context of this debate: Political consciousness. My political consciousness tells me I have a duty to defend the ANC. [Applause.] I am standing here on this podium to defend the ANC. I spent my youth as a member of the ANC. I am now approaching the twilight of my political career. I came into this House in 1994, as part of the First Parliament. I have been a leader in the ANC. Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what are you rising on?
Mr M S MBATHA: Yes. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. There are people up here who are clapping very loudly. [Interjections.] Can you please coach them about the Rules of the House?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right. Hon members and our guests in the gallery, don’t participate by way of clapping or shouting. We
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welcome your presence nevertheless. Please, obey the rules of your invitation. Thank you. Go ahead, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I believe,
therefore, I have served my people the best way I could in those years. However, I will always defend the ANC, for as long as it is at the helm and in contact with the people of South Africa.
Perhaps in keeping with the historical significance of the moment, we should allow history ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please take your seat. What is your point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: The rules are clear that members must stick to the topic of debate. [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Sithetha ngotata kaDuduzane Zuma namhlanje ...
English:
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... not about the ANC.[Interjections.] Can you please focus, mama. We are not talking about you being here since 1994. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Ndlozi,
unfortunately, ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, stop talking. I am switching off your microphone.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: To us it’s like you are applying for a job.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: No, not at all.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I am switching off your microphone. [ Interjections.] Take your seat. Hon Minister, please proceed with your debate.
IsiXhosa:
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UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NAMAGQALA OMKHOSI: Mamela ke Lungu
elihloniphekileyo, Ndlozi, andikamboni uDuduzane no-Edward apha kule Ndlu yoWiso-mthetho yeSizwe.
English:
Perhaps in keeping with the historical significance of the moment, we should allow ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please take your seat. Yes, hon member. [Interjections.] What are you rising on, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I
rise on Rule 92 a point of order. Rule 2 clearly states that members must stand up with a point of order and indicate which Rule they are referring to.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyakucela Sihlalo ukuthi ake usincede kulaba bantu abaphazamisa usisi Nosiviwe ekhuluma. [Ubuwelewele.]
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English:
Chairperson, you are allowing particularly the EFF not only to disrupt, but to make political statements. We are all capable of doing that, but there are Rules of the House. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Ngakho ke le ‘nonsense’ ezihlezi laphaya ngicela ukuthi uzibambe lezi zinto lezi.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I haven’t allowed anybody to break the Rules. I have told them not to do that and you are falsely accusing me. It is incorrect.
Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: That member says ...
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IsiZulu:
... uzibambe le zinto. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
Who is ‘izinto’ here? Can you please tell her to withdraw those words. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Akunazinto lapha, Chief.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, take your seat. I have heard you.
Mr G A GARDEE: Yes, ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member I have heard you. Hon Minister did you say that? [Interjections.] Hon Minister, did you say that? [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
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UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHUKISWA KWAMABHIZINISI AMANCANE: Izinto
ziyazazi zona.
English:
That’s it.
IsiZulu:
USEKELA SOMLOMO: Hhayi lungu elihloniphekile, ...
English
... you can’t say that. You have to withdraw that. Hon Minister, you have to withdraw that. [Interjections.] That is not to be said in the House.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I withdraw.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Unconditionally, please. Hon members, order!
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, ...
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, what are you rising on?
Mr J S MALEMA: No, next time you must bring breathalyser here. How can a normal sober person say such things? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you are out of order. You must withdraw that. Hon Malema withdraw that. [Interjections.] Hon member, you withdraw that ... any member here ... what breathalyser here. Withdraw it, hon Malema.
Mr J S MALEMA: What is unparliamentary about that?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, withdraw your statement hon member.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Which Rule are you applying? You remind me of something. We have used the word breathalyser in this Parliament before and there was never such a ruling. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu who gave you the right to speak? [Interjections.] Take your seat! Take your seat. Hon
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Malema, I requested you to withdraw what you imputed on the member. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: I withdraw because I don’t want you to chase me out. I want to vote a criminal out. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat! Take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon member. Hon Minister, please proceed. [Interjections.]
Mr G S RADEBE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?
Mr G S RADEBE: I am rising on Rule 84. Hon Malema has just said that he is just going to vote a criminal out. It is unparliamentary. [Interjections.]
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, did you say that? [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Yes, I did.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Withdraw that, hon member.
Mr J S MALEMA: I withdraw. I want to vote a crook out. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, withdraw that.
Mr J S MALEMA: I withdraw. I want to vote lemenemene[a trickster] out. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you withdraw ...
Mr J S MALEMA: Is that unparliamentary?
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You either withdraw unconditionally or you will have to take the consequences of your decision.
Mr J S MALEMA: I withdraw.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.
Mr J S MALEMA: ... unconditionally. [Laughter.]
Ms D CARTER: Hon Deputy Speaker?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what are you rising on?
Ms D CARTER: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Minister earlier did not withdraw unconditionally. She said she draws. There is a difference between drawing and withdrawing. So, she must withdraw and not just draw.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat, that’s frivolous. Go ahead, hon Minister.
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The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker,
On 23 May 2014, the then leader of the DA, hon Helen Zille, while making her final election campaign call to the voters, summed up the message of her party, when she said this to South Africans:
Remember that in a democracy, the government is supposed to work for you. You hire it and you can fire it. And we all know how it’s done. You hire with your vote and you fire with your vote.
A few days later, South Africans voted in an overwhelming majority and rejected her invitation to fire the ANC government. She was correct however, in her assertion that “we all know how it is done”, referring to the electoral process as the most credible test to determine what the people want. It is the only way voters can truly express themselves directly, on what is best. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member? Hon Minister, please take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: Section 102 of the Constitution says a President can be removed and that is legal. The speaker cannot mislead the nation by saying that a President can only be removed by a general election. She must withdraw that statement.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, that’s a political statement, hon member. Take your seat. Proceed. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon members, it
is however, also important, to make the following point by continuing to place their confidence and their hopes in the ANC, our people do not do so out of an act of naivety. Neither do they do so out of a belief that they owe the ANC anything. Their reason for their support is that they remember that the ANC was the premier force that led them in struggle to liberate our beloved country. [Applause.]
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To round off my input, let me remind you, hon members - especially ANC members, that this movement does not belong only to the South African masses. It is a movement of the people of the continent. [Applause.] What used to be the ANC anthem, based on Enoch Sontonga‘s composition, Nkosi Sikelel’iAfrika, continues to be the national anthem of some of the continent’s countries. They claim that the ANC is their own and want the ANC to do good
... [Time expired.]
Mr M P GALO: Deputy Speaker, on the 13th annual Steve Biko Memorial Lecture delivered at the University of Cape Town in 2012, Ben Okri decried the posture that the liberation movements assume once they have waged a struggle against oppressive regimes. He eloquently rubbished the movements, arguing that they come to eat and squander the possibilities of their times.
The agility of the ANC is dwindling and its political ancestors are turning against the tide. Lest we forget that the negotiated political pact in 1994 was far more than what we bargained for. It introduced the checks and balances as oversight instruments
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over the executive. Members of Parliament are leap bound by their oath of office and affirmation. This is indeed an oath that ought to pursue public good in favour of the poor and the marginalised.
In hindsight, this House is well-versed in the recent Constitutional Court ruling in the secret ballot case where the Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng warned parliamentarians to be circumspect when they strike a delicate balance between party interests and their duties as Members of Parliament. It is this balance that will determine whether the lifespan of our parliamentary democracy would withstand the test of time.
Our hard-won constitutional democracy can not be paralysed by a mob of constitutional delinquents who have no regard for the letter spirit and purport of our national blueprint. It is a matter of grave concern that a country so imbued by economic probity and tight fiscal consolidation is now teetering on the brink of technical recession.
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The members of the ANC should be able to establish moral fortitude and rise to the occasion.
The values that underpin our constitutional democracy were not designed to fulfil nefarious ends but to ensure that the conduct of Members of Parliament is in sync with the principles of responsiveness, openness and accountability from the executive. It is entirely upon Members of Parliament to choose ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]what all South Africans have been praying for, accountability from the executive. I thank you.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon members. The bad spell of the Guptas is powerful. I cannot recognise Minister Gigaba anymore. I cannot recognise Minister Mosebenzi Zwane anymore.
President Zuma has stabbed the Constitution of this country with a knife. His presidency is more like a kiss of death to the future and economic recovery of this country. President Zuma is
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beyond redemption; with his countless scandals, he can win awards in prison. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] President Zuma is a weapon of economic destruction.
Those who will vote for Zuma are worse than those who killed Ruth First and Chris Hani. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, President or Mister Zuma. Just obey the Rules of the House, Okay. It is not about your opinions; it is about the Rules of the House. [Interjections.] Just stick to them. Go ahead hon member, just ignore them.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I understand. We cannot be led by someone who opened the doors for pirates like the Guptas. Our country has been surrendered to asset strippers. If President Zuma survives this motion; we are truly on a highway to hell. The economic revolution of this presidency is the Gupta revolution. This President tolerates pillage of state funds.
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The Gupta empire is spreading like an infectious disease and the family of the President are beneficiaries. The power of the executive has been outsourced. The Gupta family has become our Cabinet. We are a nation deceived and manipulated. Therefore removing President Zuma is not an option but a must.
It is my plea that today you must show your courage. You must show your love for this country. We must make sure that we protect the future for generations to come. I beg you, even those we know that are natural-born cowards, today we are expecting you to rise above the occasion.
I expect not to see this President sitting in this chair anymore. I cannot tolerate him in this National Assembly anymore. We do not want to see any state of the nation address by President Zuma. At least, Deputy President, please, today, prove me wrong, that you are one of the brave ones. I knew you. I want to see you remembering the 1986 march that you led.
Please lead us today. Let us remove this President. I thank you. [Applause.]
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Mr L R MBINDA: Deputy Speaker, hon members. The PAC notes the Vote of No Confidence as tabled before this Parliament today which has found popular expression as the ZUMA MUST GO choir. The PAC however does not see the Vote of No Confidence against President Zuma as the solution to the problem of corruption and patronage as perpetrated by the ruling party.
As the PAC, we exist solely to serve the African people and them alone. We therefore will not be used or persuaded into being part of any imperialist agendas aimed at galvanising the forces of capitalism against the very African people we are sworn to serve. Therefore, as the PAC, we have decided to focus on what matters most, the return of the land and wealth of our country back to its rightful owners.
However, the PAC has observed throughout the post-1994 dispensation, the very ANC which too claims to be in service of our people has continued to protect and maintain the existence of the capitalist and colonial structure of our economy.
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Changing of faces or warm bodies will not benefit the interests of the African people but it will benefit those that are in the ruling elite.
For President Zuma is an individual pursuing the programmes of the ANC, so what you need to do is just to remove the ANC. The ANC has entrenched liberal policies whilst widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots. It is therefore our view that the capitalist imperialist economic setup which deprives the African people of opportunities cannot be overthrown through a Vote of No Confidence but rather through a changing of the Constitution and the abandoning of the evil system of capitalism. In so doing, we would then begin to address the issues of corruption in the ANC-led government which is largely part of a culture and norm centralised in the office of the President. Thank you.
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, comrades, hon members, fellow Azanians. The APC has always made concrete analysis of concrete conditions and takes decisions in the interest of the African
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nation and the working-class. The APC has resolved that we will not abstain in this Vote. We will vote. We will vote in support of good governance, against corruption and the cause for fundamental transformation of the politico-socioeconomic power relations which have been sustained and reproduced in the era of freedom.
So, the APC will vote in support of the motion before the House. [Applause.] Our vote is a protest against mismanagement, corruption, maladministration and the thieving of public resources. Ours is a vote demanding public leadership that is ethical, upright, honest, earnest, focused and resolute in serving the people.
We want revolutionary morality as the bedrock that informs public leadership; forge exemplary conduct, everything for the people and nothing against the people. Ours is a vote against the perpetuation and reproduction of the poverty, unemployment and any inequality inherited from white minority rule.
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The rich have become richer whilst the poor continue to live in gut-wrenching poverty; drowning in their misery, with gangs, drugs, alcoholism, femicide, diseases, violence etc.
Let those who love their people and progress join the APC in the cause of Pan-Africanism and socialism. Fellow Azanians, I thank you for your kind attention. I thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, colleagues and Members of Parliament, one of the ramifications of unipolar world order is the imperialist imagination of demanding regime change in countries across the global sound. Often, this is the removal from office of those heads of state and government, who refuse to kowtow to the reactionary interest of an oppressive global hegemony
Similarly, the call for regime change in South Africa today is a ploy to destabilise, subvert and undermine our democratic order
... [Interjection.]
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Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, you are requested to ensure that there is no ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What Rule is that?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order, which is Rule 92.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, what about Rule 92?
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker, I will read for you the Rules if you don’t know them.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You don’t know them - that’s why you need help.
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Mr G A GARDEE: I am telling you it is Rule 92. Do you want page? You want me to read it?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What do you want to address, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: I want to address the misrepresentation by the Minister, who speaks of regime change and global agenda.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member that is not a point of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: It is. He must not misrepresentation us here. It is about Duduzane’s father here and it is not about the change of government.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, take your seat. That’s not a point of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: We can’t allow misrepresentation here.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order and screaming won’t make it so. Go ahead, Minister.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Speaker thanks for that commercial break. They seek the back door, because they are not democrats. They seek the back door, because as true agents of apartheid together with their former homelands government stooges and puppets on the left of this House, they long for days of minority rule, the dark days when a small illegitimate handful would boss people around. They seek the back door, while they fail to win through ballot as they contest the ANC all the time and get defeated. We know very well that their target is not President alone. They have no confidence in the 11 million people. [Interjections.]
Ms H O HLOPHE: On a point of order, hon Speaker, we just want to clarify that we are not clapping for the Minister, but we are clapping for you, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon Minister, proceed.
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: They have no confidence in the people and 11 million plus, who voted the ANC and because democracy is poetic justice the people have no confidence in them, therefore, their target is our democracy in its entirety.
A major fallacy that has been raised by the opposition is that the recession was caused by the Cabinet reshuffle and nothing can be further from the truth. The threat of the recession began to manifest between the last quarter of 2016 and the first quarter of 2017, which predates the cabinet reshuffle-equally significant.
The first downgrade by Standard & Poor’s, S&P, to sub-investment level was decided before the reshuffle. It is therefore disingenuous to suggest that the downgrade was a reaction to cabinet reshuffle and what this means is that this motion is therefore founded on fake news.
The target of our detractors with this motion is the authority of government because what they aim for is a coup d’état to
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overthrow a legitimate government through this destabilisation. This is the same government ... [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Order, hon Minister, please, take your seat. What point are you rising on?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Here, Madam Speaker, here we go.
The SPEAKER: I am looking at the EFF benches, hon Malema?
Mr J S MALEMA: I am rising on a point of order. Hon Speaker, it is a serious allegation to say a motion that was processed properly through your office is actually a coup d’état. I think the Minister must withdraw that allegation.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order. Hon Steenhuisen?
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, I rise on Rule 85 of the National Assembly Rules, which talks about reflections on members of the assembly. I think it’s a very serious reflection on members of this assembly or hon members of this House to accuse them of a coup d’état, when all they have done is to place Constitutional motion that appears on the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa on the Order Paper.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member that is stretching a point. It is a political point, hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: So, is it a political point when I call the President a criminal. We will remember that one.
The SPEAKER: No, to say a coup d’état is not the same as calling someone a criminal, please leave that issue, hon member.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: This is the same government that has measures in place to grow and transform the economy.
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Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Ndlozi, what is the point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Speaker, I want to persuade you. A coup d’état is crime in this country. It is executed through guns and death.
The SPEAKER: Hon member let me look at this issue in the Hansard, and then I will take it forward.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Okay, please, because you accuse hon members of a coup d'état. It is actually very irresponsible.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: This is an attempt of a political coup d’état, no apology about that. This is the same government that has had measures in place to grow and transform economy through nine-point plan. As a result of this plan, the energy crisis in this country has largely been resolved and load
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shedding is the thing of the past. In fact, our people’s access to electricity has increased from 58% to 85%.
In its commitment to bringing about ... [Interjections.]
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker, the hon Minister of International Relations and Co-operation is doing it again. She is sleeping.
The SPEAKER: No, please take your seat, hon Mbatha.
Mr M S MBATHA: She is thinking about the future.
The SPEAKER: No, please take your seat. Leave the Minister. Hon Minister, please proceed.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: ... prosperity for all, this is the same government that has put in place fourteen-point recovery measures following broad consultation with various stakeholders in order to unlock economic growth and to rehabilitate business and consumer confidence.
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The government has increased GDP by more than nine times from
400 billion to over four trillion per annum. This is the same government whose proactive and progressive policies have seen the overall health of South Africans improving with life expectancy having increased to six years.
This is the same government that has decreased functional illiteracy nearly by half, from 34% to 19%. In fact the basic education system has been an upward trend and matric pass rate has improved. We have seen students who have obtained the National Senior Certificate increasing from 45% to 56%. This is the same government that has ensured that 17 million beneficiaries receive social grant as part of comprehensive fight of the scourge of poverty.
The stooges and their bosses are targeting the people’s assembly because they think this is their best apartheid Parliament. This is not your apartheid Parliament and the ANC is not your Bantustan playground. Their target and the real motive behind
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this facade. Their ultimate target is the ANC, a true movement of the people.
We have got the news for you, the ANC is united, solid, resilient and vibrant and even if you say no, you will see with the defeat today. The ANC will resolve its own internal dynamics because we have a time-tested systems and processes that define and refine our forward march.
At 105-years-old, the ANC is the oldest liberation movement that still stands and the ANC will not be lectured by the studs-ups and some mickey mouse organisations like yourselves. On behalf of overwhelming majority of our people the ANC rejects and repudiates this reactionary motion. We have confidence in the people. We have confidence in the duly elected head of state and government. We have confidence in the democratic government of the Republic of South Africa. We don’t have confidence to the stooges and their bosses, because so much has been said about Madiba today; let me quote what Madiba would have said about them.
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Addressing Congress of South African Trade Unions, COSATU rally in 2000 and I quote:
The DA is a party of white bosses and black stooges, and no matter how they cover up by getting a few black stooges, they remain the bosses. They remain a white party.”
We have heard what the Leader of the Opposition has said here, he said a lot about Motlanthe and Mbeki who are ANC leaders, but I am looking forward to a day when you remind South Africans of your predecessors and let me remind you of your predecessors, Helen Suzman, the one of qualified franchise, Collin Englin, Frederik van Zyl Slabbert, Zach de Deer, Tony Leon, whose father was hanging freedom fighters as a judge and Helen Zille. So, I don’t think that there is anything you are going to give us. We are going to defeat you even today.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Fellow South Africans, the Constitution of the Republic envisaged section 102 and the motion of no confidence in the President. It did not say that,
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if you move that motion, you are moving it for a regime change. It only sought to say that, if you move that motion, you are moving for accountability, which is what we are here to ask for today. I want to urge fellow South Africans to listen carefully. Minister Mthethwa, when the former President, Kgalema Motlanthe said:
Those people are not hirelings of the ANC. They are public representatives. They take an oath as the parliamentarians to be public representatives. They can’t be treated the same way as you treat an ANC branch.
What is true is that, speaker after speaker came here today and married President Jacob Zuma and the ANC, as if the two are inseparable. I would hate to believe that, that must be so. That today you will vote to defend corruption rather than the people who elected you to come here; I would hate to believe that this glorious movement that the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans referred to as the shadow of itself, it’s not because
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of the Opposition, but it’s because of President Jacob Zuma and not the members on this side.
Fellow South Africans, I am here to simply say that this motion was not moved by a particular race, it was moved on behalf of the people of this country. Labour, business, religious communities, the South Africans stood in unison outside here, black and white, and call on you to do the right thing today. [Applause.]
Many of you went to the National Executive Committee, NEC, to call for the President to resign. Many of you have spoken. I am not here to call for a regime change. I am here to call for the removal of the President who has violated the Constitution of this Republic. [Applause.]
You could ask him yourselves to resign, but he cannot because he has proven that he has not been elected out there; he is elected in here by the Members of Parliament who elect the President.
Let me quote one of my former leaders as you have challenged me
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to do. Helen Suzman once said: “There is a chill running down this Parliament and it’s looking for a spine!”
The SPEAKER: Order!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I fear that today we will prove whether we will act courageously for our people or courageously for Jacob Zuma. Act courageously for our people! I thank you very much. Vote for this motion! [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! That concludes the debate. I now put the motion. Are there any objections?
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
The SPEAKER: There are objections. I therefore put the question. Those in favour will say aye.
HON MEMBERS: Aye!
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The SPEAKER: Those against will say no.
HON MEMBERS: No!
The SPEAKER: I think the noes have it.
Mr M WATERS: Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Yes!
Mr M WATERS: The DA calls for a secret ballot. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: You are calling for a division. Now that the division has been called for, the bells will be rung. For how long? [Interjections.] Okay hon members! A division has been called for and the House will be suspended to allow for the preparation of the Chamber for the votes to be conducted by secret ballot.
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Yes!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: May I address you in terms of Rule 92 of Annexure L of the document that was distributed earlier ...
The SPEAKER: Yes!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... to seek your guidance and ruling in a matter which has remained before us today.
The SPEAKER: What is that matter?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Section 102 says that the votes in this instance, is decided by a majority of the members of the National Assembly. As there are apparently more than five vacancies in this National Assembly of seats that are unfilled, could we get guidance from you of what the threshold in this
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instance would be for a 50% plus one, because the guide was saying ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Yes hon Steenhuisen, finish off! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Surely on this instance, because there are vacancies in the National Assembly, it couldn’t be 201 votes. We know that it is going to be a very close thing today; so we want to make sure that we understand exactly what that threshold is, given those vacancies in the National Assembly. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I’m advised that the quorum is always counted on 400 seats. Therefore, the 400 seats mean that the quorum would be 201 in spite of the vacancies in the ANC. Now, hon members, please let’s suspend the seating and the bells will be rung to alert the members to the resumption of business. The business is now suspended.
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BUSINESS SUSPENED AT 15:58 AND RESUMED AT 16:34.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! The bells have been ringing for almost 10 minutes. We think it is time for us to move towards our seats.
Members with particular disabilities, like being partially sighted, will be assisted. Arrangements have been made for these specific members.
Order, hon members! Regarding the point of order raised by the hon Steenhuisen, relating to whether the quorum should be counted on the basis of the number of members of the Assembly, put differently: in the event of vacancies – as we know there are a number of vacancies – the question is whether the quorum should take account of those vacancies.
Hon members, I ruled that we would proceed with the voting as we have always done, counting the quorum on the basis of 400 members. We will still seek a legal opinion. The outcome of that
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process will be made known to the members. If that impacts on the outcome of the election today, then that will be attended to accordingly in terms of whatever adjustments.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I am happy with you proceeding in that regard, but just to clarify: It’s not about the quorum; it’s about the threshold that would be required to meet the constitutional hurdle of 50% plus one. The argument is that those five members should be subtracted from the 400. So it is not about a quorum; it’s about eligible members who are able to vote.
The SPEAKER: Okay, that’s fine. It’s alright. We will seek a legal opinion. Should there be a need for an adjustment, we will attend to it accordingly. Order, hon members! Hon Shivambu?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, perhaps you must give us an illustration as to when we are going to get that illustration
... what number we need to determine the legitimacy and legality
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of the outcome. [Interjections.] This is because section 102(2) says that ...
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Could you listen to the hon Shivambu? Proceed, hon Shivambu.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Section 102(2) of the Constitution says that a motion of no confidence in the President can be passed or shall be passed by the majority of Members of Parliament. So, if we have vacancies that have not been filled, you cannot imagine those members as existing. Members of Parliament are those that have been sworn in ... have adhered to the Constitution and the oath and who have said that they abide by the Constitution. So that is the basis. It can’t be 400 when we are 395 here. We must work on the basis of the number that we have so that we are able to then determine the outcome of the motion of no confidence.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, that is why I didn’t want us to debate the matter here, and said: Let us deal with it thoroughly and do every consultation we need to do, but proceed as we have
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always done and that is counting the number and therefore the majority plus one – 50% plus one – on the basis of the seats of the Assembly for now until such time that we have sought legal advice and been properly advised. Then we will do whatever we need to do to adjust. Next week should be ... really ... it should be possible for us.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Is it not possible to get the legal opinion now, Speaker?
The SPEAKER: No, hon Shivambu. I appeal to you ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... [Inaudible.] ... process now.
The SPEAKER: I appeal to you to take a seat, hon Shivambu, so that we can proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, we do concur with you. In the past we have determined the threshold for
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matters of this nature on the basis of 400 seats. That’s what has been the norm, and we have never changed from that norm. We therefore concur with your ruling that we work on this basis whilst, at the same time, you seek legal clarity on the matter. Thank you very much, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to indicate that the procedure for the vote has been sent to all parties.
Mr M W L FILTANE: Point of order, Speaker. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: What ... who is calling for a point of order?
Mr M W L FILTANE: The UDM.
The SPEAKER: Hon Filtane?
Mr M W L FILTANE: Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity, Speaker. The norm does not apply here. We went to the Constitutional Court exactly because of a norm that was applied
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by you and proven to be incorrect. We want a proper interpretation of the Constitution of the country. We can’t be told about norms. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Filtane. We will still come back after seeking legal advice.
EXPLANATION OF PROCEDURE FOR VOTING BY SECRET BALLOT
The SPEAKER: Hon members, in accordance with the procedure that has been sent to all parties, the doors will be locked for the purpose of the vote. I also wish to indicate that the table staff that are here on the floor will assist with the voting process. They have taken the oath and affirmation before me for the purpose of this exercise. The table staff will now show that the ballot boxes are empty and close them. [Demonstrated.]
Now, hon members, one ballot paper with the official mark will be issued to every member present and eligible to vote – one ballot paper with the official mark. Members will be called in
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alphabetical order according to their surnames. When their names are called, members must collect a ballot paper from the voting table.
After collecting a ballot paper, each member must proceed to one of the ballot booths and must record his or her vote by placing a clear mark alongside the yes, no or abstain options provided on the ballot paper for the recording of the vote. A mark that is not placed alongside an option will render the ballot paper invalid. So, you must make sure you make your mark against the yes, no or abstain options - clearly.
A ballot paper will be invalid if it is not stamped, if it is unmarked or if a member has signed his or her name or made more than one mark in recording his or her vote. So if there is no stamp or if the paper is unmarked, or if a member has signed his or her name or made more than one mark in recording his or her vote, then that paper will also be invalid.
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After making his or her mark on the ballot paper and while still in the booth, the member must fold his or her ballot paper in such a manner that the official mark thereon is visible to the table staff at the ballot box.
After the staff member has noted the official mark on the ballot paper, the member should deposit it in the ballot box and resume his or her seat. Members must not use electronic devices inside the voting booths. The taking of pictures inside the voting booths is prohibited. I ask the Chamber camera operators to ensure that cameras are not focused or zoomed into the booths. I am now talking about the cameras that are normally operational. The Secretary will now call upon members to vote.
The House proceeded to vote by secret ballot on the motion moved by the Leader of the Opposition.
COMMENCEMENT OF NAMES BEING CALLED OUT - ALPHABETICAL ORDER.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS & CO-OPERATION:
Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Who is calling me? Yes, hon Landers?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS & CO-OPERATION:
Madam Speaker, you ruled that no cameras would be allowed inside the voting booths. However, on the gallery is a gentleman carrying a camera with a high zoom. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: We would like to ask our guests on the gallery to please abstain from participating. Please, honourable guests and members of the media, do not participate in the activities on the floor. We appeal to you.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Order, Chair?
The SPEAKER: Hon Filtane?
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Mr M L W FILTANE: There are two cameras there at the centre, and the gentleman with a blue shirt and a grey top ... [Inaudible.]
... he’s looking that other side. He is waving us away when we wave that those two cameras must stop operating. He is looking at me now. Please show your authority and stop it. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Could we ask our staff, who are given the responsibility to help us with the management of the gallery, to please assist. We would like our guests to enjoy every minute of being on the gallery, but we also ask that they co-operate with the Rules of this House.
NAMES BEING CALLED OUT FOR VOTING RESUMED.
The SPEAKER: Order! Please start from scratch.
NAMES BEING CALLED OUT FOR VOTING RESUMED WHERE PREVIOUSLY STOPPED.
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Mr B A RADEBE: Order, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Yes ... someone is calling for a point of order.
Mr B A RADEBE: I’m to your right, just further in front.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Speaker, we would like to really appeal, as you have done, to the guests. Clearly, one camera is in a position such that we cannot be very comfortable that he is not taking shots. We really want to appeal to you, hon Speaker, that that camera be shielded away from the House. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I’ll ask the table office to assist us by actually going up to help the staff that are supposed to make sure that this doesn’t happen from the gallery. We have already asked that cameras not be operated. The Rules that we are operating with have been agreed to by all parties. We cannot now have other
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people who just violate what we are asking to have observed by all of us, both in the House and on the gallery.
[16:54:46] NAMES BEING CALLED OUT FOR VOTING RESUMED.
Mr ?/An HON MEMBER: Order, Speaker. Order! Maimane is having a cellphone into the booth. [Interjections.] Ya, but it was said we must not use it. [Interjections.]
Ms/An HON MEMBER: Maimane must be disqualified. [Interjections.] He must be disqualified.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Indeed, that was a breach, but we will have to deal with it. He has removed it. [Interjections.]
Mr/An HON MEMBER: Order, Speaker! Order, Speaker! Hon Maimane must be disqualified, Speaker. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! [Interjections.]
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Mr/An HON MEMBER: Hon Maimane must be disqualified.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, could you allow this to be dealt with properly. Please let the voting proceed.
NAMES BEING CALLED OUT FOR VOTING RESUMED.
CALLING OUT OF NAMES FOR VOTING CONCLUDED.
The SPEAKER: Are there any hon members that have not yet voted? Please come forward so that you can be assisted in voting.
Dr C P MULDER: Madam Speaker, may I address you on that point?
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Mulder.
Dr C P MULDER: If I am wrong, then I apologise. The procedure that you issued today states clearly in paragraph d(6) that each member present must vote. I may be wrong, but I don’t find your name on the voters’ roll, and I did not see Madam Speaker vote.
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If I am wrong, then I apologise. You are a member of the House, Ma’am.
The SPEAKER: I think you are, because the Constitution has something to say about that. Could the table staff find the relevant ... Yes, we thought of that and we talked about it. I want to ask the Secretary to read the relevant section of the Constitution. The font is too small for my eyes. The Secretary, when called upon by the Chair, must assist. Please read this.
It’s too small. It’s section 53(2)(b). Secretary, could you please read.
A TABLE STAFF MEMBER: Section 53(2) of the Constitution reads as follows:
The member of the National Assembly presiding at a meeting of the Assembly has no deliberative vote, but –
must cast a deciding vote when there is an equal number of votes on each side of a question; and
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may cast a deliberative vote when a question must be decided with a supporting vote of at least two thirds of the members of the Assembly.
The SPEAKER: So, I hope, hon Mulder, you are satisfied that that settles the matter.
Dr C P MULDER: No, it does not, Madam.
The SPEAKER: It doesn’t.
Dr C P MULDER: I don’t think so, no.
The SPEAKER: Okay. Go on.
Dr C P MULDER: No. I think the section is quite clear. It says exactly the point: that if there is a two-thirds majority needed
– this is not the case at the moment. There are not an equal number of votes at the moment. You’re not expecting to cast a
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deliberative vote. As a member of the House, you’re entitled to vote. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Mulder, there is a situation which I learned about when we were busy with the negotiations. It was that, depending on how many lawyers you have in the room, you would have that many interpretations of whatever sentence or whatever you’re dealing with. These lawyers here in front of me, who are my assistants, are very determined that that is how we have always interpreted this section, which is that unless there is a need to do a casting vote – when, in fact, there is an equal number in the House – I would have to exercise that casting vote. That is how we have always interpreted it. Now, unless we ask that that matter also be dealt with along the lines of the other one, we are going to be here until midnight – knowing how many lawyers are in this Chamber right now. So, I would like to request that we do it the way we have always done it. If you insist, it should go to that same exercise – that process that will determine the other issue.
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Unless there are other members that have not voted and wish to do so now, the table staff will now close and seal the ballet boxes. I will suspend proceedings shortly to enable the Secretary to count the votes in the Chamber in my presence and the presence of the designated party representatives. They may not use electronic equipment in the Chamber to take pictures or disclose the results in any way before they are announced in the Chamber. The bells will be rung for five members to alert members to the resumption of business. This will be after the counting has been done. Business is now suspended until the bells are rung.
BUSINESS SUSPENDED AT 17:53 AND RESUMED AT 18:41.
The SPEAKER: Order! [Members singing.] Hon members and guests on the gallery, could we all take our seats. I have received a written report on the results of the votes from the Secretary of the National Assembly. The results of the vote by secret ballot are as follows: total votes: 384; the yes votes: 177 ... [Applause.] ... Order! Order! Order, hon members! [Applause.]
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Can I finish? The number of no votes: 198. [Applause.] [Some members singing.] Order! Order! Order! Order! Order, hon members! I haven’t finished. There were nine abstentions.
Therefore the motion of no confidence in the President is accordingly negatived. [Applause.]
Question not agreed to.
Motion accordingly negatived.
The House adjourned at 18:43.
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