Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 31 Aug 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
WEDNESDAY, 31 AUGUST 2017
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 14:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, it is an honour for me to announce that joining us, in the gallery, is Mr Hakainde Hichilema, the leader of the Zambian opposition, UPND. [Applause.]
Hon members, the only item on today’s Order Paper is Questions addressed to the President.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege in terms of Rule 31: Once more, we are called upon in this House to be addressed by a person who the
highest court of the land has found to have violated the Constitution. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: Can you please listen to this before ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I have not even finished! [Interjections.] Hon member, I have not even finished asking what the point of order is.
Mr G A GARDEE: Madam Speaker, the point that I rose on is a point of privilege in terms of Rule 31.
The SPEAKER: On which ... Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: We request that ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: ... you explain to us, Madam Speaker, why Duduzane’s father has come here to address us when, actually, the highest court of the land has found him to have violated the Constitution. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: And you also, with this House, are complicit. [Interjections.] The same judgment also had an adverse point ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I urge you to take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: ... you and the Parliament.
The SPEAKER: I urge you to take your seat, hon member.
Hon members, it has been ruled before that, in terms of the Constitution, the President is elected by Parliament and can also be removed from office by Parliament. [Interjections.] This can be done in terms of either section 89 or section 102 of the Constitution.
On 8 August, this House considered a motion of no confidence in the President and, as we all know, the motion did not succeed. [Applause.] There is therefore no basis in law or in terms of the Rules for the President not to be allowed to speak in this House today, and for as long as he is the President of the Republic. [Interjections.] I therefore really appeal to hon members that we proceed with the Order, which is Questions to the President. [Interjections.]
The first Question has been asked by the hon Leader of the Opposition.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker, on a point of order: Rule 31(2)(b) refers to your telling this Parliament that since the President has violated the Constitution and his oath of office, Parliament is expected to discipline him.
The SPEAKER: Hon Hlophe ...
Ms H O HLOPHE: May I just finish, Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Hon Hlophe, I have ruled on this matter and I urge you to take your seat.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker, may I just finish?
The SPEAKER: No, hon Hlophe. I have ruled and I urge you to take your seat.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker, not today. We just want to get your engagement. Why don’t you just take action against him because ... [Inaudible.] ... his office?
The SPEAKER: Hon Hlophe, I am now going to switch off your microphone.
Ms H O HLOPHE: But we are engaging, Speaker, in terms of the Rules.
The SPEAKER: I am going to switch off your microphone.
Ms H O HLOPHE: It’s the Rules, Speaker! [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Speaker, on a point of order ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members, the first question has been asked by the hon Leader of the Opposition.
Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order! On a point of order! [Interjections.] On a point of order! On a point of order! [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Microphone! Microphone!
Mr J S MALEMA: I have not been suspended. On a point of order! [Interjections.] On a point of order!
The SPEAKER: The Chair has the right to switch off a microphone ... [Interjections.] ... when an hon member is not co-operating. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Not us – we have not been switched off!
An HON MEMBER: Chair, you have not answered our question! [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Ms M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngeke sikwazi la ngaphakathi ukuthi sihlale namasela, abantu abatshontshayo.
Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order! The microphone, Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: I have ruled on the matter of the President
... [Interjections.] ... and his right to speak in the House. For as long as he is the President of the Republic, he has the right to come and answer questions in the House. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr J S MALEMA: You cannot switch off our microphones, Speaker! You are suppressing our freedom of speech. You cannot switch off our microphones. [Interjections.] Please switch on our microphones. You can’t do that! We are going to speak here. [Interjections.] Thank you.
Speaker, you are out of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, I have not given you the right to address me.
Mr J S MALEMA: I am rising on a point of order. Please don’t abuse your power.
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
Mr J S MALEMA: You cannot switch off our microphones. You can switch off her microphone.
The SPEAKER: I will switch off her microphone ...
Mr J S MALEMA: But you also switched off our microphones.
The SPEAKER: I have now switched on all your microphones and I am urging you to take your seat ...
Mr J S MALEMA: Please, please, don’t abuse power.
The SPEAKER: ... so the President can answer your questions.
Mr J S MALEMA: Don’t abuse your power, please. [Interjections.]
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, I rise on a point of order: can you please rule on this? You are quoting the Constitution where section 89(1)(a) explicitly states “a serious violation of the Constitution or the law”. There is a judgment by the Constitutional Court that uBaba kaDuduzane [Duduzane’s father] has violated the Constitution. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ...
Dr M Q NDLOZI: No, this is my last sentence. We wrote to you, as the head of Parliament, to institute disciplinary proceedings against uBaba kaDuduzane so that he can be answerable for violating the Constitution.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ... hon Ndlozi ...
Dr M Q NDLOZI: And you are continuing to allow him to come here on the basis that he is the President.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, I am not allowing you to deal with that particular matter here, in this sitting, which is specifically for the President ...
Dr M Q NDLOZI: My last point ...
The SPEAKER: ... to answer questions.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: But we wrote to you, Speaker. We wrote to you!
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, you don’t deal with that matter here.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: A motion of no confidence has nothing to do with section 89(1). There is a ruling by the highest court in the land that uBaba kaDuduzane has broken the law. [Interjections.] You must have at a disciplinary hearing so that he come and answer.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi ... [Interjections.]
Dr M Q NDLOZI: That is what we are asking. What is he doing here before he goes into a constitutional treatment action? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, I am switching off your microphone.
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.] ... Hon Speaker ...
An HON MEMBER: Hon Chair ... [Interjections.] ... on a point of order. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: The microphone’s off.
Ms D CARTER: Exactly! Hon Speaker ... Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order, hon Speaker ...
Ms D CARTER: It’s off. Hon Speaker ...
An HON MEMBER: Hon Speaker ...
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: There’s a point of order here.
Ms D CARTER: ... I’ve been standing since before even the hon Malema spoke.
The SPEAKER: That’s alright, I will come back to you. Hon Deputy Chief Whip?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker,
in terms of Rule 140, today’s sitting is about Questions to the President ...
The SPEAKER: Indeed.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: ... which
all of us sitting in this House agreed upon in the Programming Committee meeting, this morning. [Interjections.] Yes, some of those people who are against this sitting today were not part of that meeting. It was agreed by the majority of parties represented in this House that today we would have Questions to the President. So, we cannot be held to ransom by people who do not recognise the President.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker, on a point of order ...
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: He is here
to deal with his constitutional obligation to this House. I thank you.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker! Speaker! On a point of order: I just want to say ...
The SPEAKER: Hon members ...
Ms H O HLOPHE: ... the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party was not even there ...
The SPEAKER: ... don’t interrupt when another hon member is on the floor.
Ms H O HLOPHE: She wasn’t even at that meeting, so she must not speak as if she was there. She was not at that meeting.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, this is a session for the President to answer questions. [Interjections.] I appeal to hon members to co-operate and let us proceed with this session for the President to answer the questions. If
not, I will have to ask you if you would like you to leave the session. [Interjections.]
Dr M Q NDLOZI: NO, we do not want to leave, no.
IsiZulu:
Ms KHAWULA: Asifuni ukuhamba la sizosebenza.
English:
Dr Q NDLOZI: Speaker, ubaba kaDuduzane suspended Mdu Manana on the basis ...
The SPEAKER: I can’t have two people from the EFF talking at the same time.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: I am talking, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: So, please.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: The hon Mduduzi Manana who is honourable no more, was suspended by ubaba kaDuduzane.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, I did not recognise you, Hon Carter.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Mr Zuma did worse, there is a Constitutional Court finding against him. Why isn’t he suspending himself?
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Why must we sit here and listen to uBaba kaDuduzane on the basis ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, hon Carter
Ms D CARTER: Speaker, you have to look at your systems and the fairness of your procedures, if you, in exactly the same point as the hon Malema, you cannot if hon Hlophe’s mic is switched off and then you switch everyone’s mic off throughout the House. That is unconstitutional, you cannot do that. You can switch the person’s mic off but you cannot switch everyone’s mic off.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much hon Carter, you are correct and I am asking the table staff to look into the issue of the mics. When I want to switch off one mic, only one mic must go off, it must not disadvantage the whole house. So, hon members, I now ... [Interjections.]
Mr T RAWULA: Order, hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: What is the issue, hon Mbatha.
Mr T RAWULA: No, no no, I am hon Mbatha.
The SPEAKER: Who are you?
Mr T RAWULA: I am hon Rawula.
The SPEAKER: You are hon Khawula.
Mr T RAWULA: Rawula. Thank you very much for recognising me. Speaker, the first two speakers raised a point of privilege which is Rule 31. I want clarity, are there rules that are suspended in the House because in terms of the rules a member may rise and raise a point of
privilege and your duty is to listen to the point up to the end. Please advise us if there are certain rules in the House that have been suspended so that we may be advised. Thank you very much, please rule on that.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I have ruled on that matter which was raised by the very first person who stood up on a point of order and I made an immediate ruling on the matter and I have announced it in the House and I wish to proceed to ask the President to answer the question of the hon Leader of the Opposition.
Mr J S MALEMA: Speaker, on a point of privilege.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, I am not going to continue giving you an opportunity for a point of privilege which in fact is about abusing this House.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, one of the things that you may have to come to terms with is that we have a right to speak here and it doesn’t matter whether you are irritated by our inputs or not. You must listen to us and
all we are asking is that we cannot have Duduzane’s father running to speak here ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No hon Malema ... [Interjections.] ... hon Malema ...
Mr J S MALEMA: ... after the Constitutional Court pronounced on him
The SPEAKER: ... Hon Malema, you have now abused even the right I am giving you now, by calling an hon member in the House by a private reference. I am saying that here you address other hon members as hon members. Yes, hon member at the back.
Mr J S MALEMA: No Speaker, I was still making my point.
The SPEAKER: No hon, no. I told you to take your seat.
Mr J S MALEMA: I hope you are proud that every time you come here Parliament degenerates because of your crimes. I hope you are proud.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: yes, hon member at the back.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Thank you hon Speaker, I want to check if we can’t subject the hon President to a lie detector test because his presidency is like a crime in progress and I do not want to be part of a president who is not willing to abide by our Constitution.
The SPEAKER: Hon Plouamma, please take your seat.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, I was hoping for better from you.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No, it is because of that ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I was hoping from you since you were seating here a day before yesterday. [Laughter.] I expected much better from you.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Speaker, do not patronise me. It is because of that women’s conference that we cannot be addressed by a rapist. It is because of that women’s conference we cannot be addressed by a person that rapes women.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, you must withdraw that immediately.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: No, he must go.
The SPEAKER: NO, you must immediately withdraw.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: He must go, we can’t be addressed by him.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Yes Speaker.
The SPEAKER: You must say what you want to say in the right and correct form and you know that. You do not stand in the House and just throw and insult which in
fact amounts to you abusing another hon member. If you want to put to us a wrong that has been done by anyone here, please do it in the correct form. You know that you must put it in the form of a substantive motion. You can’t just stand up and thin that because you are in the House you can say anything to anybody.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Okay, I withdraw. I withdraw.
The SPEAKER: Thank you.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: But now Speaker, can I speak my point?
The SPEAKER: What is your point?
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: My point is that we can’t be addressed by the father of Duduzane. He has no respect for the Constitution. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No hon Ntlangwini.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Speaker, do not be abused by that man, he must leave. He can’t address us here.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ntlangwini, take your seat. Hon members, I know recognised the hon Chauke.
Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: I am recognising the hon Chauke.
Mr M S MBATHA: Speaker, I was before Chauke.
The SPEAKER: No hon Mbatha. Yes, hon Chauke.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Speaker, I thought that you would be able to make a very strong ruling regarding this address by the President as the father of Duduzane. I thought that you would give protection to the President because it cannot be ... [Interjections.] ... that we then reduce the President’s office to an extent that there are insults coming to the President. From the ANC side we take serious exception of this Speaker and we want you to make a ruling of those who are disrupting the House, if they want to be in the House they must really adhere to the rules and we proceed in that fashion because we cannot take it anymore that we must allow these insults
that are coming to the President and it becomes normal. You have to make a ruling on that.
The SPEAKER: Thanks hon Chauke.
Mr J S MALEMA: No, you are out of order. If you work for your family, you will be called Duduzane’s father. He has abdicated his responsibility of being the father of the nation because he is feeding his family. [Interjections.] He must stop feeding his family ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order hon Malema! Hon member, you are out of order.
UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER: Order Speaker! Speaker ...
IsiZulu:
... ubaba ka Ratanang akakwazi ukukhuluma ...
English:
... without being appointed.
The SPEAKER: I want to make a ruling here as raised by the hon Chauke. Hon members, the Rules of Parliament are in principle designed to foster the free exchange of ideas and meaningful debate and to ensure that the dignity and decorum of the House is maintained. Without due decorum this House would be unable to conduct its business and serve the people’s interest.
In this regard, there are a number of Rules and conventions relating to how members should refer to one another and specifically that they should address each other in a respectful manner. Moreover, I must remind members that they are here in their official capacity as elected representatives and not as heads of a particular household or as a relation to another individual. So, hon members, we are here in our particular capacities as Members of Parliament. Infact I remember the hon Floyd Shivambu emphasising that point. Based on these principles, I am of the view that it is not in order to refer to the President or any other member in their personal capacity.
In the House members should refer to each other as hon or by their titles. I therefore urge members to address each other in line with the rules and practices of this House.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, let us put on record that we reject that Eurocentric ruling that promotes European culture in a South African, African Parliament. It is very much respectful within our culture to refer to you
...
IsiZulu:
... njengo mama kabanibani.
English:
At least I am not saying Baleka or Mbethe we are not saying Zuma we are saying baba kaDuduzane. [Interjections.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: On a point of order.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: In our culture, that is respectful but we want to register that that is precisely what we use, he
is ubaba ka... [Interjections.] ... – unless he wants to reject his son.
The SPEAKER: Order!
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Do you want to abandon your son when you come here? He serves him and he is here to protect him. So we must reject that ruling of yours as an Eurocentric and ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.].
The SPEAKER: Order, hon Ndlozi. You have no right to scream everything you have been saying.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Don’t confuse screaming with passion. It is passion and not screaming. I promise you, you heard everything I said.
The SPEAKER: I have not recognised you hon.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: It is passion and it is also African.
The SPEAKER: I have not recognised you. I am recognising the hon Shaik Emam.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Madam Speaker, we have come here for a specific reason and that is to get responses from the President. Secondly, there are millions of people internationally and locally that are waiting to hear the responses of the President. May I urge you, Madam President to exercise your right in terms of the rules and bring the decorum and ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ... back to the House. Thank you.
Ms M S KHAWULA: On a point of order.
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Mama uKhawula, ngicela uhlale phansi.
Nks M S KHAWULA: Ake sihloniphane, yizwe lethu leli.
USOMLOMO: Ngicela lokho nami ukuthi sihloniphane.
Nks M S KHAWULA: le ndoda leyo mayihambe lana, ayisadingeki nezinyanga azisayifuni lana.
USOMLOMO: Akukona ukuhlonipha lokho.
Nks M S KHAWULA: Mayiphume le ndoda. Ubaba kaDuduzane uyahlinishwa.
USOMLOMO: Ngicela uhlale phansi.
Nks M S KHAWULA: Hhayi! Makahambe!
USOMLOMO: Asisamdingi.
USOMLOMO: Ngicela uzihloniphe wena kuqala.
English:
I will now call the hon Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I rise
on a point of order, Rule 92 in relation to the abuse of Rule 31. First, hon Speaker, let us read Rule 31 so that the audience out there understands what Rule 31 is about. Rule 31 says that:
A member who wishes to raise a perceived breach of privilege must report it to the Speaker without delay.
If the alleged breach of privilege is in the Speaker’s opinion adequately substantiated and may affect a sitting of the House on the day on which the question of privilege is reported or in the immediate future, the Speaker may, with due regard to the provisions of the Powers and Privileges Act,
-
make an immediate ruling on the matter and announce it in the House, or
provide the member with an opportunity during the sitting to move an urgent motion without notice in terms of Rules 97(1)(b) and 101.
If the alleged breach of privilege does not directly affect a sitting of the House in the immediate future, the Speaker must refer the matter to the Committee on Powers and Privileges and inform the House accordingly, either immediately or at the earliest opportunity.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Order Speaker.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, we
therefore move that we are here on Rule 140 and the business of this House is to receive responses to the questions that have been directed to the President. That is the business of the House. Any of the matters that have been raised as matters of privilege, there is no matter of privilege that has been raised that precedes or that needs to nullify Rule 140 that empowers this House to receive answers to the questions that have been directed to the President. I so move.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, that point of order is sustained and we have now taken many points of order. I now proceed to...
Mr J S MALEMA: No, no hon Speaker, on a point of order...
The SPEAKER: ... questions
Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, I am not taking anymore points of orders.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, you are abusing your power because ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, I am not taking anymore points of orders.
Mr J S MALEMA: When you call the President you are referring to him as baba. All the time when the President is here, you refer to him as baba.
The SPEAKER: No, I call him President.
Mr J S MALEMA: No, you say baba, all the time. You are not consistent and you are abusing power. There is nothing wrong with baba kaDuduzane.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, if you do not want to take your seat and co-operate so that this House can proceed with its business, I will have to give you the opportunity to exercise the right to leave the House. [Interjections.]
Ms N V MENTE: Point of order Speaker.
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Hayi andisazithathi iziphakamiso zonqwanqwada sisi ngoku.
English:
Ms N V MENTE: No, point of order, based on what the Chief Whip has said. He is looking for...
The SPEAKER: I am now proceeding. We have spent 30 minutes on points of order that are spurious. I am now...
IsiXhosa:
Nks N V MENTE: Sifuna ukulungisa uMbhexeshi oyiNtlonko. Simbhalele incwadi uMbhexeshi oyiNtloko kodwa khange azidine ngokuyiphendula. Makangathi ke ngoku apha siwusebenzisa gwenxa uMgaqo wama-31. Asimsebenzisi gwenxa koko sikhangelana nempendulo kula ncwadi besimbhalele yona ethi thatha utata kaDuduzane umzise phambi kwekomiti yoluleko.
English:
The SPEAKER: You are now speaking without my permission. I now call upon the President to answer the questions.
Ms N R MASHABELA: Point of order Speaker, Speaker you are continuing to violate the Constitution by allowing baba kaDududzane to come here and speak. [Interjections.] This is a man who failed to respect the Constitution. No, wait.
The SPEAKER: No, I am going to allow the Sergeant-at-arms to allow you to go out; to assist you to go out.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, you did not warn her. You must warn her first; warn her first. You cannot call a Sergeant-at-arms at her first offence. Warn her first. You cannot abuse power like that otherwise we will have to take you on review because you acting unconstitutionally. You must warn her first. You cannot just call the Sergeant-at-arms on the first offence. Warn her first and see if she is not co-operating. She is even sitting down now and there is no need for a Sergeant-at- arms. Come, come, come here papa kaDuduzane come. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, hon members, I have said, I am done with points of orders. I am done. So you are all warned that we have finished. You are all warned.
Mr J S MALEMA: There is no such a Ruling, hon Speaker. You cannot generalise.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, I have to proceed to questions. I now ask the hon President to come to the podium and answer the question of the hon The Leader of the Opposition.
Alleged influence to do business with members of the family or extended members of the family.
Question 14:
The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic: Whether, since his appointment as President of the Republic on 6 May 2009 and with particular reference to sections 96(2)(b) and (c) of the Constitution of South Africa, 1996, which stipulate that Cabinet members should not act in any way that is
inconsistent with their office, or expose themselves to any situation involving the risk of a conflict between their official responsibilities and private interests, or use their position or any information entrusted to them to enrich themselves or improperly benefit any other person, he, as head of Cabinet, instructed or influenced any state department or entity to award contracts and/or agreements for the purpose of conducting business with any (a) member of his immediate and extended family and
(b) businesses and/or corporations with ties to his family members or relatives; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details in each case?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I wish to make it categorically clear that I have never instructed or directed any state institution to give contracts to anyone whatsoever. [Interjections.] Having said that, the issues raised by the Leader of the Opposition in his question are similar to the issues that were investigated by the Public Protector in the report entitled State of Capture.
I have stated on numerous occasions my intention to establish a commission of enquiry to investigate matters raised in the report. I am pursuing this course. I deem this to be in the public interest and in the course of good governance and accountability. I thank you Madam Speaker. [Interjections.]
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: I did not want to interrupt the President but when you said that the First Order of the day is Questions and then there were points of order and we pushed our buttons. When the President started speaking the buttons were cleared. So, I am saying for fairness purposes, for people who did not see that the buttons were cleared must clear them again before we get to follow up question.
After you have called for the First Order of the day, we pushed our buttons and our lights were on. While the President was speaking the lights were off.
The SPEAKER: Can we just check on that. What is happening with the list? I see now, my own screen is clear.
Mr G GARDEE: In the meantime...
IsiXhosa:
... angahlala phantsi utata kaDuduzane...
English:
... whilst we are getting those things cleared. Madam Speaker...
IsiXhosa:
... ungamxelela ukuba angahlala phantsi.
USOMLOMO: Hlala phantsi wena kuqala. [Kwahlekwa.]
English:
The SPEAKER: Can I just, for clarity sake, announce the names that appear? It is the hon The Leader of the Opposition, hon Inkosi Cebekhulu from the IFP, the hon Shaik-Emmam from the NFP and the hon Mente from EFF. That will be the four. Hon Carter, you are there but you are right at the bottom.
Ms D CARTER: Exactly, exactly, do you know why? They cleared it. [Inaudible]
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter, please take your seat. The machine did not clear the list; it just put them in order.
Ms D CARTER: No, no, this Table is manipulating who must be speakers. I have got witnesses here that it was cleared after the President started speaking. I have got witnesses that know that our lights were on and it was cleared afterwards. It is being manipulated to fit the ANC of which speakers they want to speak.
The SPEAKER: But there is no ANC here. It is the IFP, NFP and EFF.
Ms D CARTER: I am saying to you that you are manipulating the Table. The Table is manipulating it.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker, Shaik-Emmam is the ANC. It is such that he is sitting on this side.
The SPEAKER: The hon The Leader of the Opposition.
Ms D CARTER: The only way this process is going to be fair is to again clear the list.
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter, I have heard you. We have heard you and the Table staff have noted the point and we are looking into it.
Ms D CARTER: That is not sorting out the problem.
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter, there is nothing we can do as the whole plenary here right now.
Ms D CARTER: For fairness of the process you should reset it and then give anyone the opportunity for the first who pushed the buttons to be on. But to just be switched off and cleared – does not work that way and I am not going to give up. You can throw me out but unless it is fair process, we cannot continue. [Interjections.]
Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, when the name of hon Shaik-Emmam was called, there was a bit of howling. Let
it be known that hon Shaik-Emmam is a member of the NFP. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, hon The leader of the Opposition has been recognised.
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, you have not addressed my point. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I have no way of addressing it. Hon Carter, hon Carter...
Ms D CARTER: I have witnesses that after the President started speaking you, with the Table cleared the speaking buttons. So, for it to be a fair process, clear everyone and give everyone the opportunity to push the buttons again. That will be in all fairness.
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker, just remove that Shaik-Emmam because he is very useless and put her in his place.
Mr T RAWULA: But you have made exceptions for baba KaDududuzane to speak. Make exceptions for Carter as well.
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter, we have noted your point and Mr Xaso here, who heads the Table, is looking into it with his colleagues but he is saying to me that when they were listening to the points of order they were dealing with that and they were not yet at the point of supplementary questions. So, whatever you are complaining about will be followed up by the team under Mr Xaso.
Ms D CARTER: Speaker, I do not agree with them for the single reason that we ...
The SPEAKER: Can we then not waste the time of the House? We have already wasted a lot of time of the House. I appeal to you to please deal with it in the office of the Secretary to the NA, Mr Xaso, please.
Ms D CARTER: Speaker, does that mean we need to deal with the President outside too?
The SPEAKER: No.
Ms D CARTER: Well, exactly. So, the only fair process will be to reset all the buttons. That is going to be no problem.
The SPEAKER: Go and tell Mr Xaso.
Ms D CARTER: No, you are the Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No, I am not Mr Xaso. I do not deal with the machines. He deals with them.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: But Speaker, you cannot refer us to Xaso. Hon Speaker, you cannot refer us to Xaso. This thing of buttons is rules. It allows you to determine fairness.
The SPEAKER: I am not talking to you hon Ndlozi.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: But I am talking to you, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No, take your seat. Take your seat.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Do not refer the House to Xaso. You are out of order. Who is Xaso, by the way? Who elected Xaso?
The SPEAKER: If she wants to get to the details of the buttons then she will have to deal with Mr Xaso.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Maseko at the back stood up before you.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Hayi mama uyaphazama. Kudala ndime apha. Ndingakuva xa usithi umbone kuqala.
English:
Ms L M MASEKO: It is okay Speaker, give him the chance. I will talk after him.
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Ngomdala okanye ngomncinci?
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Hayi, ndixakiwe mama. Makhe ndingakuphenduli okwangoku.
USOMLOMO: Ndicinga ukuba makuthethe umama kuqala.
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Hayi, ndingamnika, akukho ngxaki kuloo nto.
English:
Ms L M MASEKO: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: Hon Hlophe called hon Shaik-Emmam useless and I would like you to ask her to withdraw that.
Ms H O HLOPHE: But I was trying to make a point that Shaik-Emmam is an ANC useless person in this House. So, you can even call Carter instead.
The SPEAKER: No, no, withdraw.
Ms H O HLOPHE: I withdraw.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, I understand and sympathise with you entirely because I understand your predicament that from where you are sitting you are not able to determine accurately who was first and last on the list and what happened earlier. But then, it takes us back to
the proposal I made to you on behalf of the UDM that we should have access to the queuing system for follow up questions on our screens. That will address this problem but not only that but it will ensure the credibility of the system. It will also ensure that there is fairness in the system.
The SPEAKER: I believe you raised that in the Chief Whips’...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: No, no, no, in the Programming Committee this morning. I am saying we need to attend ...
The SPEAKER: Now, you are up scaling it into this House? Mr N L S KWANKWA: I am underscoring that point.
The SPEAKER: The House is not in a position to deal with that issue right now, hon Kwankwa.
IsiXhosa:
Nceda uhlale phantsi bhuti maan. Ixesha lixhatshwe yinja ngoku.
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Mama, yima kancinci.
English:
We had a similar problem with the Deputy President and it is recurring. That is why it is important for us to discuss it here.
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Hlala phantsi kaloku, siza kuphinda siqubisane nayo loo nto. Masivumeleni utata uMaimane athethe.
English:
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, Speaker.
IsiXhosa:
Ohloniphekileyo Ndlozi, hlala phantsi.
English:
Can I address you Speaker?
IsiXhosa:
Hayi, hlala phantsi bhuti.
English:
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Okay, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: No, even on a point of order, sit down.
Mr G GARDEE: Madam Speaker, you are requested to give a ruling as to whether it is parliamentary to call an hon member here “ubhuti” when actually you are refusing us to refer “umlisa waseNkandla ukuthi ubaba kaDuduzane.”
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Hlala phansi! Wena hlala phansi! Hamba uyohlala phansi.
English:
Hon Maimane, speak please.
Mr B A RADEBE: Speaker, on a point of order. [Interjections.]. The member of EFF has just called the President “umlisa waseNkandla”. [Interjections.] I think, that it is not parliamentary. He must be addressed appropriately. Secondly, Speaker, you have made a ruling about referring to people informally. They consistently
do that. I think your ruling is final according to Rule 92(11). Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Nk S M KHAWULA: Hhayi, hhayi! Mhlawumbe awumazi, vele ngumuntu wesilisa lona. [Ubuwelewele.] Kanti awazi yini ukuthi ngumuntu wesilisa lo? [Ubuwelewele.] Usenkingeni. Uyamthuka phela manje wena. [Ubuwelewele.] Usitshela ukuthi akuyona indoda le. [Uhleko.] Musa ukudlala ngathi. Hawu, yindoda le. Umlisa lo. [Uhleko.]
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Bakwethu mina bengicela sisebenze namhlanje.
English:
Mr S J MALEMA: On a point of order, Speaker. No, no, no, you just called hon Khawula, mam’uKhawula against your own ruling ... [Laughter.] ... be consistent. It’s not done. Your ruling, you know very well that it is wrong. That is why you called mam’uKhawula, mam’uKhawula. That is why we will call him baba kaDuduzane.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, take your seat. [Interjections.] Please, take your seat! Hon Maimane, please ask your supplementary question.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, I would have really hope that the motion no of confidence would have succeeded and members from that side, in fact, some agreed with us that the President be removed. [Interjections.] I am here to speak about this doublespeak, in your response you said you are willing to set up a judicial commission of inquiry but, in fact, you are opposing it in court.
That is not my question. In your state of Nkandla report
– “Secure in Comfort” – you said you have a bond but in fact none of that has been proven. I want to get to this question because the trend is continuing. You are saying in the same question, you have never done so. Yet, there is an affidavit tabled by Mr Brent Simons that has come through. He says he was present at the meetings where you requested for relatives that you know to be given particular contracts. [Interjections.] Now, clarify for us, who is lying to South Africa? Is it Mr Simons and if he is lying, are you going to take any legal actions against him or are you, in fact, Mr President, misleading
South Africans about not helping your family members to get contracts in the state? [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I have answered the question. I have never done such a thing. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: You have my answer, hon member. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, on what point are you rising now?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I am rising on Rule 91. Madam Speaker, the hon Maimane asked the President a specific question. [Interjections.] He said that if Mr Simons is lying as the President is now alleging in this public forum, is he going to take legal
action against him? That was a clear question. The President must answer. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I have answered the question. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Cebekhulu.
Mr G GARDEE: This one, you are going to answer. Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: No, no. You have not been recognised. Hon Cebekhulu has been recognised.
Sepedi:
Mna S J MALEMA: Ao!
English:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Cebekhulu.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, please allow me to proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, you are moving on, though, that is the problem. That is why, you know, people like this come to the House to disrupt the House because the President frustrates the process. [Interjections.] If the President answers the questions, we wouldn’t, perhaps, have all the drama in the House every time. People get frustrated because the President won’t answer. It was a simple question. If Mr Simons is lying will the President take legal action against him? You did not answer that with respect, sir. You did not answer your question at all and you must answer.
Otherwise, Madam Speaker, this is a sham. We might as well all pack it up, not go through this drama and all go home if this is a sham. He must answer the question.
Otherwise, this House is failing in its duty. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, may I proceed to allow the hon Cebekhulu to ask his question. [Interjections.]
Mr G GARDEE: Madam Speaker, you are disrupting the House. With due respect, we wish to assist you as we used to do before.
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Awuhlale phansi!
English:
Mr G GARDEE: With due respect, Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.] ... I request your indulgence on a point of order against you.
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Hlala phansi!
English:
Mr G GARDEE: You are not going to call the next supplementary question, Madam Speaker; that you can be assured of.
The SPEAKER: Oh!
Mr G GARDEE: Allow us to speak to you.
The SPEAKER: Oh! So, I am going to take instructions from you that I must not call the next supplementary question. I am calling the hon Cebekhulu. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, on a point of order. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Members, what do you want us to do? The hon President ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Listen, he must answer the question. [Interjections.] He must answer the questions [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Ehe! Uyangihlekisa yazi.
English:
Mr J S MALEMA: He must answer the questions. [Interjections.]
Hon MEMBERS: Answer the questions! Answer the questions! Answer the questions!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, order! Order! This has been said before and I am going to repeat it. It is not possible for the Chair to prescribe to the executive how they should respond to questions from members. [Interjections.] If a member is dissatisfied with the reply, there are processes available for them to obtain further information in line with their oversight responsibility. [Interjections.] I believe hon members that members of the executive should use the opportunity provided by Question Time, to provide the House with as much information as possible to assist members in exercising their oversight functions. However, the Chair cannot put words in the mouth of the member of the executive.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, let me assist you.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Malema. I don’t need your assistance.
Mr J S MALEMA: You need assistance.
The SPEAKER: No, I don’t.
Mr J S MALEMA: Speaker, if there are no words coming out of the mouth of an executive, you are going to make him take words out of his mouth.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Malema.
Mr J S MALEMA: He is not saying anything.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema.
Mr J S MALEMA: What is the purpose of this? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, please take your seat! I wish to proceed to hon Cebekhulu.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, please! Co-operate with me.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I please address you. I would love to co-operate. I really
want to. May I just address you in terms of Rule 26(4) of the NA Rules? Madam Speaker, your job as a Speaker is to make sure that the Rules are applied, and to ensure the participation of members of all parties. It is not that we are not happy about the response. We are complaining about the lack of response. [Interjections.] The President didn’t answer; it’s not that we are unhappy with what he said. He is refusing to answer the questions. Madam Speaker, please crack your whip and get the President to answer the questions. That is why you are there. Put this institution before this man. The Constitution ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: The hon President has answered ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: He has not.
The SPEAKER: ... in the manner he has answered and there is nothing I would be able to do about that. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Lungu elihloniphekile Kwankwa ngicela uhlale phansi.
English:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You can compel him to answer the questions, Madam Speaker. You can compel him it’s in your right to do so. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Hlala phansi! Hlala phansi Kwankwa!
IsiXhosa:
USOMLOMO: Ohloniphekileyo Kwankwa, ndicela uhlale phantsi, hlala phantsi, hlala phantsi Kwankwa.
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Uyamosha uMongameli, uyamosha mama ayikho le nto.
USOMLOMO: Hlala phansi Kwankwa ...
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: Hayi mama, ndiphakamise isandla.
Ms L MATHYS: Hon Speaker, hon Speaker! Can we be recognised?
Mr N LS KWANKWA: Speaker, I would like a proposal, if I may?
The SPEAKER: What proposal?
Mr N L S KWANKWA: May be the Leader of the Official Opposition should put the question to the President again; it’s possible that he didn’t hear it. But we cannot allow the President to treat Parliament with disdain, like he is doing. It’s completely unacceptable. [Applause.]
This is the attitude that you see in most members of the executive who refuse to answer questions, they would absent themselves when we deliver member’s statements in this House. They are taking cue from the President.
IsiXhosa:
Mama, injalo, yinyaniso.
USOMLOMO: Hayi, ohloniphekileyo Kwankwa.
Mnu N L S KWANKWA: UMongameli wenza unothanda apha. Ngoku wena ufuna simyeke?
The SPEAKER: I am not doing that; I am asking the hon Cebekhulu who is the next person.
Ms L MATHYS: Speaker, hon Speaker, this is what we went through when we trying to hold him accountable ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Ah-ah, I have not recognised you. So, please take your seat. Please take your seat.
Prince G BUTHELEZI: Speaker, the request from me is that when members are answering questions, and when all this is going on – can I plead with you that the President be allowed to sit down, please. [Interjections.] I don’t need your assistance. Can I request that he be allowed because he is still the head of state whether we like him or not. And for him to be standing while all this is going on – I don’t think it is right. I am just pleading for him to be allowed to take a seat while all this is going on.
The SPEAKER: Actually there is no problem with hon President taking a sit in the meantime.
IsiZulu:
Nk S M KHAWULA: Vele umthetho uthi umuntu uhlala phansi awuthi kuyakhulunywa endlini umile ngezinyawo. Akumiwa endlini ngezinyawo. [Ubuwelewele.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Cebekhulu, ask your supplementary question.
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Thank you, Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: No! Hon Speaker, we have not received an answer and we went through the same thing when we were dealing with the issue of Nkandla; and you kept on covering up!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, take your seat hon member!
Ms L MATHYS: And you kept on covering up ... [Inaudible.]
... questions, yes or no! You are rendering this
Parliament absolutely useless if you can’t even ... [Inaudible.] ... and giving direction to the executive what they supposed to do and say answer the question; whether we like ... [Inaudible.] he is supposed to say yes or no. He hasn’t answered the question!
The SPEAKER: Can you take your seat?
Ms L MATHYS: No! But why are you not doing your job?
The SPEAKER: Take your seat!
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon Cebekhulu, please ask ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, please let hon Cebekhulu ask his supplementary question.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon Leader of the Opposition, you have asked your supplementary question.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, no, no, I am on a point of privilege!
IsiZulu:
USOMLOMO: Cha! [No] Ngicela uhlale phansi baba.
UMHOLI WEQEMBU ELIPHIKISAYO ELISEMTHETHWENI: Ngiyakucela
ma
USOMLOMO: Cha.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Please; can I put a point of order because this is crucial. I don’t want to disrupt the process, I am not asking for any complications.
The SPEAKER: You are just complicating my life.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, no, no, no! When you ask a question you expect an answer, the question is quite simple, it says someone is lying to South Africa
about ... [Interjections.] I am asking whether the President is going to take this person to court. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: The President says he has answered you.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: He has not! No!
[Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: So, if you are not satisfied, follow order, not now and not here.
Ms M C C PILANE –MAJAKE: On a point of order, Speaker;
The SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
Ms M C C PILANE –MAJAKE: The Leader of the Opposition is actually saying that the President is lying. Is that parliamentary? Can you please make a ruling on it? I am also rising in accordance with rule No 61 which actually says that we are now having a behaviour that is grossly disorderly. [Interjections.]
The conduct of the opposition in this House is grossly disorderly and I want to read this rule in conjunction with Rule No 92 to say that they are so disorderly and also Rule 92 says that when you have made a ruling there shouldn’t be any points of order that follows your ruling. Whenever you make a ruling the opposition must comply so that it can actually help us to run the business of this House in the same manner. I thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you might have interpreted it that way but he did not actually say it. And therefore, I want to proceed to hon Cebekhulu.
Mr D CARTER: Hon Speaker, hon Speaker, hon Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter and hon Plouamma, I am asking both of you to take your seats. [Interjections.]
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, you ignored us but you take ANC to rise on points of order ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: You are wasting time, hon Carter take your seat.
Ms D CARTER: No, I am not!
The SPEAKER: Do you rather want to leave the House?
Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker, hon Speaker!
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, I have been standing on a point of order and you haven’t recognised me.
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter, I am switching off your mike because you don’t want to co-operate.
Mr M WATERS: I haven’t risen on a point of order all day yet.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Waters, no.
Mr M WATERS: Can you please recognise me – Rule 91.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, we have wasted an hour now. [Interjections.] No! I am not allowing it.
Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker, it’s not us. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No! I am taking hon Cebekhulu’s follow-up question.
An HON MEMBER: Hon Speaker, can you recognise me please.
Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker ... [Inaudible.] hold executive to account; if anybody is giving you a hard time it’s the President by, once again, disregarding and trampling the Constitution ... [Inaudible.] I am rising on a point of order on Rule 91, you have to recognise me.
The SPEAKER: No. I am not taking you point of order; I told you I am not taking any points of order.
Mr M WATERS: ... [Inaudible.] The President claims that he has answered the question, however, Madam Speaker, the follow-up question was different. [Interjections.] The follow-up question was different!
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, you did not give any warning for switching that mike off.
Mr M WATERS: So, the President has actually not answered hon Maimane’s follow up. [Interjections.] The follow-up question was different. ... [Interjections.] and therefore ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Kodwa Somlomo [Speaker], khipha uMongameli kuyonakala ngaphakathi ... [Ubuwelewele.] [Uhleko.]
Mr H P CAUKE: Hallow! Hallow! Is this thing working?
Mr M WATERS: The follow-up question could not have been answered because it’s different to the original that is in the question paper, Madam Speaker. The question was: Will the President take legal actions against Mr Gideon Sam, who has claimed the affidavit that the President did indeed put pressure on officials to give contracts to his family members; and the President has not answered the question. It’s a simple yes or no; and you are not doing your constitutional obligation by forcing him to answer the question. [Applause.]
Hon MEMBERS: Answer the question, answer the question, etc.
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, hon members!
Inkosi N R CEBEKHULU: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon President, given that there has been such a great deal of controversy that one can almost say has been a hallmark of your presidency around members of your immediate family and friends who have financially benefited from state contracts because of influence exercised by you, and you to deny this?
Mr President, can I take you back to 2009 to a meeting with Mr Jacinto Roger, who was summoned to a meeting with you, your son Duduzane, and Mr Tony Gupta where you expressly told Mr Rodger who held a senior position in the Department of Mineral Resources to help Duduzane wherever he could as Duduzane was the only child involved with money. Was this not the start of the Zuma Empire being built with undue Presidential influence being exercised by you on civil servants for the direct benefit of your family?
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Madam Speaker, I have never sat in a meeting with the person of a name I don’t know. I have never sat in a meeting an asked anyone to help Duduzane, never. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shaik-Emam!
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, on a point of order!
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Thank you, Madam Speaker ...
Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, on a point of order!
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter, I have told you that I was done with your points of order. Please, take your seat, hon Carter.
Ms D CARTER: The President is misleading the House. There is evidence and proof that he had a meeting. He is once again lying to South Africa.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Madam Speaker, let me start off by acknowledging what my colleague from the EFF said. She
said I was useless. Let me tell this House, Madam Speaker, that this particular member has a great and the only opportunity in this House to be able to say something because she is voiceless in her own party. When the boss says sit, she sits, when he says stand, she stands and when he says jump, she asks, how high. So, this is her opportunity.
Ms L MATHYS: On a point of order, Chair. He must withdraw or he is going to meet ... can you withdraw that because you don’t sit in our party meetings and you do not know what is going on there. So, can you get him to withdraw, hon Speaker?
IsiZulu:
Nks M S KHAWULA: Futhi nguye owamlethela amaGupta lo Emam. AmaGupta afike naye.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shaik Emam, there has been a request for you to withdraw for saying a member gets up when her boss tells her to get up. There is a request for you to withdraw that.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: But Madam Speaker, that is common knowledge throughout South Africa.
Ms L MATHYS: He doesn’t sit in our meetings hence he must withdraw.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: They do what they are told. That is clear that they don’t have a voice and they don’t serve the people of this country either. They do nothing.
The SPEAKER: Hon Mathys, please, take your seat also. We are not here for you to ...
Ms H O HLOPHE: Speaker!
IsiZulu:
... ube khuluma ngami lo? Leli party agent belikhuluma ngami ngiphumile? Angangijwayeli mina.
USOMLOMO: Qha, hlala phansi mama uHlophe
Mr L G MOKOENA: Madam Speaker!
The SPEAKER: No, hon member. Can you allow ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nks M S KHAWULA: Uyadelela lo muntu wamaGupta.
The SPEAKER: Allow the hon member to ask his supplementary question.
Mr L G MOKOENA: No, I was going to ask him to comply to your ruling, please. Ask him to comply with your ruling.
The SPEAKER: Okay, I don’t need your help though, just take your seat. Can you withdraw, hon Shaik-Emam?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Madam Speaker, for the interest of the decorum of this House, I withdraw,
The SPEAKER: Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Mr President, what is very, very clear and I know many people are talking about the commission of enquiry into capture and into members having interest
in business. Mr President, we are 23 years into democracy. The economy is still in the control of a few running 30-year contracts that were issued just before the 1994 elections. Can you tell this House and South Africa that any enquiry will include all state capture and all influence that past and present members may have had in business and industry, whether it is finance, motor vehicle trade or whatever industry to ensure that all that would be investigated in the interest of radical economic transformation. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Madam Speaker, as I have said that I am pursuing the issue of the commission, I am looking at the terms of reference and they will deal with the matters of corruption. Indeed, how far it goes that will also be known when we announce the commission as well as the type of either the state capture or whatever that we will be dealing with or the kind of corruption that will indicate some capture of one kind or the other. So, those matters will be addressed by the commission. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, “baba ka kaDuduzane” [Duduzane’s father] the issue of Mr Rocher is on record. Here is a man who says he sat with you and your son in a meeting and you said he must sort out your son. Those allegations are so serious in a country where ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Chauke, are you rising on a point of order?
Mr H P CHAUKE: Speaker...[Interjections.]
Sepedi:
Mna J S MALEMA: Hee! Chauke, aowa banna, o nyaka mošomo naa?
Mr H P CHAUKE: Speaker, you have made ...
Xitsonga:
Nkul J S MALEMA: U lava poso? Aa, Chauke! U lava poso?
Mr H P CHAUKE: Speaker, you have made a ruling ... [Interjections.]
English:
Mr J S MALEMA: You are so desperate, Chauke ...
Xitsonga:
Nkul J S MALEMA:... u lava poso? Aa! Tshama hansi, Chauke.
Mr H P CHAUKE: ... that we are going to refer and address the President as the President of the Republic ...
Xitsonga:
Nkul J S MALEMA: Aa! Hakunene u lava poso, ku suka eNorth West. U lava poso? Hawu! Hakunene u lava swakudya, Chauke?
Mr H P CHAUKE: ... therefore, Speaker, you need to maintain the decision that you have taken on how we must address the President. Please, can you maintain that ...
Xitsonga:
Nkul J S MALEMA: Aa, makwerhu.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, please, address the hon the President as hon the President.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon “baba kaDuduzane” [Duduzane’s father].
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: I have attached hon.
The SPEAKER: No, I said address him as hon the President.
Mr J S MALEMA: No, there is no Rule that says I must say hon President. It says, hon or Mister. Okay, Mr Zuma.
Now, there is an allegation of state capture. Here is a man who puts you right at the centre of a state capture. You don’t do anything about him and you don’t take legal action against him; or if you don’t want to take legal action against him, you do not even say to him withdraw that unfounded allegation against me for the sake of the good image of the office you are occupying, or else I will take action. You don’t say any of those things. You then come here and say that there is no such a thing.
Why are you not taking actions against people who are putting you right at the centre of a state capture?
People say you have a house in Dubai, but you don’t take action. People say you are working with the Guptas to appoint Ministers and all that – that one I know you are doing it – you don’t take action against such people, including, amongst others, the newspapers and all forms of media who made these allegations. Why are you not taking action to, at least, protect the good image of the office if you don’t care personally, that office?
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Hon Speaker, I don’t know whether members want to play politics. Firstly, everyday people in this country say something about President Zuma.
Should I stand everyday take everybody to court? You say a lot of things about me. Should I do so? If I were to do so ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: You can take me to court ... [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: If I were to do so [Interjections.] No, man ...
IsiZulu:
... ngisakhuluma.
Mnu J S MALEMA: Nami ngiyakhuluma.
English:
The SPEAKER: He is answering you, hon Malema.
Mr J S MALEMA: This is not your House ...
IsiZulu:
...ngeke uthi ngiyakhuluma sengathi usendlini yakho ...
English:
... this is not your House. This is Parliament.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema!
Sepedi:
... mo ga gona “ngisakhuluma”. O sa “khuluma” eng? Re a “khuluma” le rena moo.
The SPEAKER: Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: Everyone speaks here. This is our House.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: You asked a question.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Malema, you have asked a question.
Mr J S MALEMA: You can take action against me if you think I am lying; take action against me. Why are you not taking action against me? I am not scared. You can take action against me. I am not scared you will never take action against me.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Generally, I don’t take actions against people like you, I don’t do it.
Mr J S MALEMA: Because you know we are telling the truth. You know we are telling the truth. You will never take action because you know we are telling the truth. You will never challenge the truth in court. Go to court, you will never challenge the truth in court. You are protecting yourself against ... [Inaudible.]
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: I don’t take actions in court against people like you. I don’t, hon member.
Mr J S MALEMA: Because you know we are telling the truth. Let us go to court so that we can proof the corruption.
Let’s go to court. Take us to court.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I have answered the question.
Ms N V MENTE: On a point of order, Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.
Ms N V MENTE: No, Speaker, “baba kaDuduzane” [Duduzane’s father] can’t come here ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, hon member.
Ms N V MENTE: ... and spend the tax of this country under false pretence that he is coming to account as an executive, but says nothing.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member.
Ms N V MENTE: He says he has answered the question. Which question has he answered? He only said that he does not take people to court.
The SPEAKER: Hon member!
Ms N V MENTE: Why is he doing it? He must answer the question.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member, don’t do that.
Ms N V MENTE: He can’t come here and say nothing, then otherwise you must just call this House off.
The SPEAKER: Don’t do that, hon member.
Ms N V MENTE: Call off this whole proceedings. We are wasting time here.
The SPEAKER: We are, I agree with you.
Ms N V MENTE: No, we are wasting time and he is saying nothing.
The SPEAKER: I agree with you, we have wasted a lot of time.
Ms N V MENTE: He did not answer the question of the DA.
The SPEAKER: We have wasted a lot of time, I agree with you.
Ms N V MENTE: He is not answering the question of the EFF, but he answered the question of that party agent who is useless.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I see a forest of hands from the EFF benches.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Madam Speaker!
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I am not taking your hands.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Madam Speaker, can you recognise me?
The SPEAKER: No, hon member.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Mam, it is an extremely important point of order.
The SPEAKER: I am sure all of them are extremely urgent.
Mr L G MOKOENA: No, no, I am sorry, Mam, this is only the second time.
The SPEAKER: But I urged you to take your seat for us to proceed, hon members,
Mr L G MOKOENA: Can I ask one question, Mam? It is a point of order to Mr President because this is extremely important. This pertains to the Office of the President. The Office of the President is being put into disrepute here.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please, take your seat I have not recognised you.
Mr L G MOKOENA: We are asking you, how are you going to protect that office?
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member!
Mr L G MOKOENA: It is not personal and it is not about you.
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member!
Mr L G MOKOENA: How do you protect the President’s Office which is being put into disrepute for the country, and not for you?
IsiZulu:
Siyakucela baba, siyakucela...
English:
...please, answer the nation.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please, take your seat.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Hon Speaker, I just want to get clarity. You are saying you are not going to take points of orders from EFF, what is that? You must not do that to us. We are here as hon members and we are going to ask this man of Nkandla everything that we want. By the way Mr Zuma, we think you are a criminal. That is what we think of you. There is nothing we are going to change. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, I have asked you several times, after having told you I am done with taking points of orders from you, because you have abused the time. I have asked you to take your seats again and again ... [Interjections.] ... you know yourselves. Your conduct is really interfering with the business and the pace of our ability to proceed with the questions to the President. I am not ... [Interjections.]
Isizulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: U-Chauke kufuneka axolise ukutheni uZuma akayena umlisa, akakhokhe inkomo lowaya, axolise kuZuma. Uyamhlaza ukuthi akayena umlisa lo. Mhlawulise mlisa, mhlawulise wena Zuma ukuze asazi kahle.
Mr CHAUKE: Hon Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Hon Chauke?
Mr H P CHAUKE: Speaker, I thought you will make your ruling. A member has just called the President a criminal and I thought you will be able to make a ruling, please.
The SPEAKER: An hon member who called the President a criminal, withdraw that. Withdraw that hon member. I saw you. Yes, withdraw.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Speaker, all I said is that Mr President we think you are a criminal.
The SPEAKER: Withdraw that hon member because you know is wrong to do it that way. I told you that when you have to do ...
Mr M M DLAMINI: Which is the right way to tell that the person is a criminal? Which is the right way?
The SPEAKER: ... the right way is to appropriately draft a well considered and well formulated motion
Mr M M DLAMINI: But he is here.
The SPEAKER: A substantiated motion.
Mr M M DLAMINI: I want to save state resources. That is why I am telling you here right now.
The SPEAKER: I am saying withdraw it hon member?
Mr M M DLAMINI: Okay, I withdraw.
The SPEAKER: Hon members I proceed to Question 15 asked by hon Kekana and I call upon the hon the President.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Point of order!
The SPEAKER: I am not taking a point of order anymore. I told you.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, the Rules don’t say that.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, I told you.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: I know is difficult, but you have to take it.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Ndlozi.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: I know is tough to be there ...
The SPEAKER: I am not going to allow the afternoon to go.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: ... all the time when the President is in the House, but you have to take it. It is about the Rules.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, no.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Point of order, Speaker.
The SPEAKER: You are not going to abuse the rules and waste the House’s time and say I have to do it. I am not allowing you, hon Ndlozi.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Speaker, you don’t know what I am going to say, whether I am going to abuse or misuse. It is a point of order. You are a speaker, you must take it.
The SPEAKER: I am asking the hon the President to answer Question 15.
Question 15:
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Hon Speaker, South Africa, as the only African member of the G20, uses her participation to advance the African agenda of sustainable development, inclusive growth, reduction of inequality and the promotion of a just economic world order.
Sustainable inclusive development was given deeper meaning and emphasis during the Chinese Presidency of the G20 last year and was taken further during the German Presidency this year.
During the last summit in Hamburg, Germany, the G20 launched the G20 African Partnership, which strives to renew efforts for sustainable economic development in Africa.
This initiative is designed to support private investment, sustainable infrastructure development and employment in African countries. Investment compacts have already been committed to by a few African countries.
A number of projects have been adopted as part of the G20 African Partnership, aimed at ensuring the inclusion of marginalised and vulnerable groups in our society. These include the #Skillsforgirls, the G20 Initiative for Rural Youth Employment and the Women Entrepreneurs Financing Initiative. South Africa uses its position as co-chair of the G20 Development Working Group to promote pro-poor and pro-Africa projects.
The Working Group launched the important G20 Initiative on Supporting Industrialisation in Africa and the least developed countries. The focus is on women and youth to particularly promote science, technology and innovation as critical means for industrialisation ... [Interjections.]
Mr G GARDEE: Madam Speaker, we rise in terms of Rule 83 not a point of order, Madam Speaker. Rule 83. Can we read Rule 83?
The SPEAKER: Don’t interrupt the speaker on the podium.
Mr G GARDEE: No, Rule 83 allows it.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon President, can you take your seat?
Mr G GARDEE: Rule 83, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: But hon member you can’t just come up and speak.
Mr G GARDEE: It is Rule 83, let us remove Rule 83.
The SPEAKER: There is no Rule that allows you to interrupt someone.
Mr G GARDEE: Can I read it?
The SPEAKER: No.
Mr G GARDEE: The table must read for you.
The SPEAKER: I don’t want to allow you to disrupt when somebody is speaking.
Mr G GARDEE: It is Rule 83.
The SPEAKER: No.
Mr G GARDEE: It is Rule 83 Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: There is no Rule that makes a person to interrupt another one.
Mr G GARDEE: A member must as far as possible refrain from reading her/his speech ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member!
Mr G GARDEE: ... but may refresh his/her memory by referring to the notes. He is ever reading too much.
The SPEAKER: Hon Member, can you take seat?
Mr G GARDEE: But Rule 83, Madam Speaker. It is fine.
The SPEAKER: Hon President, please finish your question.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: ... South Africa also uses its position as co-chair of the Development Working Group to advocate support for low income and developing countries to secure energy security, food security, and infrastructure development and to mobilise domestic resources.
Ms M V MENTE: I rise on a point of order, Speaker - Rule 92(2).
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Hon Speaker.
Ms M V MENTE: Speaker, Rule 92(2).
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: As co-chair of the G20 Development Working Group, South Africa also introduced initiatives to address cross-border ... [Interjections.]
Ms N V MENTE: Point of order, Speaker. We may stand up exactly at the occurrence of the disorder.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: ... financial flows derived from illicit activities ... [Interjections.]
Ms N V MENTE: Allow me to address you, Speaker, you can’t ignore us. There are Rules in this House. I am standing on point of the Rules. Speaker, allow me.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: These include comprehensive financial regulatory reforms, efforts to make the international tax system more transparent as well as tackling corruption in both the public and private sectors.
The G20 has also agreed that low income and developing countries especially in Africa must be assisted with tax administration and capacity challenges so that they do not lose much-needed revenue. [Interjections.]
Mr T RAWULA: Order, Speaker! Rule 92. The President is in breach of Rule 83. Rule 92(2).
The SPEAKER: No, hon member, take your seat.
Mr T RAWULA: Says I have a right to rise on the occurrence of the contravention of the Rule. You are now contravening Rule 83. We are expected to refresh you on your notes not to read them. Please rule on that. Can you sustain my ruling?
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: I have recently appointed an Inter- Ministerial Committee co-chaired by the Ministers of International Relations and Co-operation and Finance, whose task is to ensure that the G20 resolutions that promote a better life for our people are implemented. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr E KEKANA: Hon Speaker, to the hon President, as the Co-Chair of the G20 Development Working Group in, the execution of your responsibilities, will you consult with other African countries in order to get their buy-in in line with your commitment of the concept of inclusivity as stated at the recent BRICS leadership meeting at the G20 Summit in July 2017?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, yes, the consultations have started already. When the G26 – there are those who get invited in Africa, the Chairperson of the African Union, AU, and the Chairperson of Planning and Coordinating Agency, NEPAD. We consult when we are there and we have already consulted ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngabe uMongameli umbonile nangu usbali wakho eqhamuka ngaphesheya sizathi.
English:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... and we are going forward to consult other countries in the continent, particularly those who operate under the NEPAD who are looking at the economy of the continent. That will be done particularly because G20 has committed itself that it is going to support the countries in Africa by establishing this partnership. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Ms D CARTER: Speaker, to the President, in your reply in tackling corruption and ensuring a better life for all of our people, I would like to ask you, Mr Zuma, did your
meeting with Russian businessman, Vladimir Yevtushenkov in Davos in January 2015 and other meetings here in South Africa influence your decision to appoint Silas Zimu as your special advisor on energy? Is Evtushenkov business one of the potential buyers of a Telkom shares which government is planning to sell? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Carter, just one second. Yes, hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, Rule 91, I do not know if the sound is not travelling up there but it is very clear that the government benches are making cat sounds. You would know that we have had previous rulings in the House that members may not make animal sounds when other people are speaking. You need to, as a Speaker, ensure that all parties can participate in a manner befitting our democracy. Will you ask the government benches to grow up and behave?
The SPEAKER: Hon members, cat sounds are not allowed in the House while another hon member is speaking. Can we allow hon Carter to finish?
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: Speaker, it is Councillor Mabe. She must withdraw what she is doing. That one there that failed in Mogale City.
The SPEAKER: Hon Carter, go on and finish your question.
Ms D CARTER: I am not sure if the President heard the complete question. In his meeting with Yevtushenkov ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, allow hon Carter to ask her question.
Ms D CARTER: ... in January 2015 and other meetings he had here in South Africa, did your meetings with them influence the appointment of Silas Zimu as your special advisor on energy? Is Yevtushenkov Sistema business one of the potential buyers of a Telkom shares which government is planning to sell off?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, there is no Russian business person who influenced me to appoint Zimu
as the advisor on energy; I took my decision. Thank you Madam Speaker.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Speaker, to the hon President, given the rise in a nationalist and protectionist sentiments particularly in the US and the UK, how does South Africa intend to use its co-chairing of the G20 Development Working Group and its membership of BRICS to reform the global order and in particular to balance against hegemony of the US in the global system in line with our geostrategic interests? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, firstly, our participation in the G20 or BRICS is informed by the interest of the country and those of the continent.
Secondly, we do not necessarily police countries on the kind of attitude they take to the world.
We have our own beliefs as a country and as a continent. We know when some countries take particular positions through elections for instance a particular party which is known to have a particular kind of direction as it has happened in the United States, we cannot interfere with
those kinds of politics. We address the kind of relationship that must help to promote how our country benefits in such relations as well as the continent particularly if you talk about G20. We look at what is it that needs to be done in the main to strengthen the relations but also to prioritise the developing countries to have a fair deal when they deal with big countries.
We do not necessarily attack policies of countries. We could respond to the actions those countries take if those actions interfere with the global understanding of how things should flow in terms of government etc.
With regards to BRICS, it discusses the approach which is different from that followed by other big countries and there is absolutely no feeling that there could be a wrong development there. We work together; we develop, we are growing as a group of countries to address the plight of the poor people and the plight of our countries. This is what we do particularly if you serve in a group like the one I’m referring to of the G20.
We discuss the economic problems of the globe and what could be the kind of possible solution that could be reduce the impact which would be negative economically and how to ignite the economy. We discuss how to address issues that we all know, for example, the growing unemployment because it is a global challenge, the unemployed youth and the widening gap between the rich and the poor. These are the issues we discuss.
In other words, we discuss the issues as to how do we help the society and how the world can work together to deal with the solutions that will make the world better than it is. Those are the issues we deal with. We do not get into the domestic policies of countries. We deal with global issues as well as actions if those countries are taking actions that we feel are not helping the global relations. Thank you Deputy Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, to the President, recently you travelled to Zambia. You arrived there and you had a meeting with your compatriot, Mr Lungu. Sitting in the gallery today is the Leader of the Opposition from Zambia who happened to have been detained
in prison for over hundred days under the charges of treason, under this notion that he ought to be taught a lesson.
My biggest concern is that our government has neither condemn those actions and not spoken out against them. I want to know, will you tell Mr Hichilema who is sitting here, why the South African government failed SADC by not condemning its action and violation of human rights that took place there in Zambia? Could you explain it to him? [Applause.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Radebe.
Mr B A RADEBE: Let us be fair, the follow up by the Leader of the Opposition is different from the main question which is dealing with BRICS, consultation and other things and not about Zambia.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon President, you have a choice. Go ahead hon President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy Speaker, as I have mentioned, we are dealing with relations of the countries globally which are basically relations between countries and those that are defined in the multilateral institutions.
What I said here, and I was very clear: We do not interfere in the politics of countries, we don’t and that is our policy. [Applause.] If countries do whatever they do, as I said, it depends if it is a kind of an action that interferes with the flow of the relations in terms of the global or continental or bilateral. If countries get into problems - we are not an opposition in Zambia therefore we can’t go there and participate in either side.
If the Leader of the Opposition in Zambia wins the elections, he will relate to that party as a party and if they have particular views about the oppositions, we are not going to get there and discuss the matters of Zambia nor the matters of any country.
We are very careful how we conduct our foreign policy; we create relations and do not enter or interfere in the domestic affairs of countries. Thank you Deputy Speaker.
Question 16:
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Hon Speaker, government monitoring and evaluation programmes have become invaluable tools in helping us to identify service delivery successes as well as challenges, with the aim of improving governance and service delivery to our people. The Siyahlola Presidential Monitoring Programme was launched in July 2012. Through this programme, the President visits communities to inspect and assess progress made in delivering basic services to the people.
The Siyahlola visits focus on specific basic services delivery issues such as water, electricity, education, health or any other issue that a particular community has raised as a concern, or which government undertook to act upon. Government departments and agencies undertake follow ups after the Presidential visit and ensure that issues raised by the community are attended to. Since the beginning of this year, the Siyahlola visits have been
undertaken focusing on the fight against crime at KwaMhlabuyalingana in KwaZulu-Natal, KZN, where the community had complained about the theft of vehicles which are taken to Mozambique and to Soshanguve in Tshwane where the community faces serious challenges relating to drug abuse and resultant crimes.
A visit was also undertaken to Nyanga in Cape Town which has been dubbed the murder capital of the country where people live in fear of attacks daily. The Presidential Siyahlola visit also took us to Lusikisiki in the Eastern Cape to tackle crime. Work is still ongoing in these ... [Interjections.]
Ms M S KHAWULA: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga uMthetho wama-45, bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi uMongameli ulokhu esitshela ukuthi uyahlola, uyahlola futhi ubala nezinyanga yonke into. Ngabe uhlola izintombi noma ngabe mhlawumbe sekuqeqeshwa izangoma ukuthi zihlole lapha? Angazi.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. Take your seat, hon member. Hon members, frivolous points of order are not allowed. They are disruptive of members or person on the podium. Mr President, please go ahead.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Work is still ongoing in these areas to advance the fight against crime and also to deal with other socioeconomic issues raised by the communities. Other government monitoring mechanisms in place include the Presidential Imbizo Programme through which the President accompanied by Ministers, premiers, Deputy Ministers, members of the executive council, MECs, and mayors interacts with members of the community and hear their concerns and suggestions.
In addition to the Presidential Imbizo, the Government Communications and Information System, GCIS, organises comprehensive and extensive formal Imbizo Focus Week programmes where Ministers and Deputy Ministers visit various communities for feedback and to monitor the implementation of programmes. There is also the Presidential Hotline which citizens use to report service
delivery challenges in their communities. As at the end of July 2017, the main issues citizens complained about were employment, housing, water, electricity and civic issues such as the need for birth certificates or identity documents.
In addition, over 900 government facilities have been visited through the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation’s Frontline Service Delivery Monitoring Programme which was launched in 2011. Service improvement programmes were agreed to for these facilities following the visits. The Department of Public Service and Administration leads the Batho Pele, People First, programme of government, which promotes citizen care in the public service. Through Project Khaedu run by the Department of Public Service and Administration, senior managers undergo training and visit the coalface, spending at least a week gaining a firsthand account of people’s experience of government services.
The Department of Social Development runs project Mikondzo through which they visit communities and identify people in need of assistance including orphans
and vulnerable children, the aged and infirm. Destitute families requiring food or medical care are identified during such visits and are given assistance. Importantly, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs runs the Back to Basics programme aimed at monitoring and improving the performance of local government.
Offices of the premier and mayors also undertake direct monitoring of service delivery. A key factor that has arisen, hon Deputy Speaker, is the need to promote integrated planning and work among departments and among the three spheres of government. It is for this reason that the Siyahlola and Imbizo Programmes bring together all three spheres of government in addressing specific service delivery issues. If people complain about water, they are likely to need electricity or transport as well which means all affected departments and spheres of government should work together, putting the citizens first.
We have also identified communication as a key challenge. Government may think a community needs a school first
when they actually need a clinic first and the school later. We will continue to use these programmes to improve governance and also to keep in close contact with the citizens that we serve. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms L MATHYS: Deputy Speaker, can you just please remind Mr President Zuma that Rule 83 that says a member must as far as possible refrain from reading his or her speech, but may refresh his or her memory by referring to notes. Therefore, please kindly I noted that your previous hon Speaker was feeling a bit tied but can you please advise because ... [Inaudible] ... thank you.
Ms R M M LESOMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, His Excellency, the hon President, I am sure Siyahlola Presidential Monitoring Programme is also aimed at developing necessary interventions where deem necessary informed by material conditions on the ground findings and committee response in the said Izimbizos. Are there any, hon President, specific areas of improvement that were triggered by the programme and what has been the committee’s response in this respect? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Deputy Speaker, yes, in a number of areas that we have gone, there has been a response from the communities who have seen the difference. I think that the recent one that we went to was KwaMhlabuyalingana in Ingwavuma. Ever since we went there where there were a lot of crime, cars being taken and they were complaints about the police. We went there and the situation has changed. They have sent messages to thank the government. Indeed, even a new police station is being built as a result of that visit. The stealing of cars crossing the border has gone down. So, there are, that is one example and there are many other examples where the Siyahlola has helped. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr S P MHLONGO: Deputy Speaker, what I wanted to find out is that, where does the Monitoring Ministry located in the Presidency’s report and how does it report because we have never received any report of Monitoring and Evaluation Ministry as this House?
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Deputy Speaker, the Minister responsible for Performance, Monitoring and Evaluation
reports to the Cabinet like all other Ministers as to what is happening. In fact, the reports are always given even in the extended Cabinet, Lekgotla, it is always given the report and it becomes part of the broader government reporting. Therefore, the reports are given all the time. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, through you to Mr Zuma, the Constitution provides that the President exercises executive authority, amongst other means, developing and implementing national policy and co-ordinating the functions of state departments and administration. Now, Mr Zuma, the National Development Plan, NDP, is our country’s roadmap aimed at reducing poverty, inequality and unemployment. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency exists largely as a measure to ensure the effective implementation of the NDP.
Now, Mr Zuma, given the arising poverty, inequality and unemployment, rampant corruption including state capture and inability to develop a capable state and inability to give effective NDP - these are all under your presidency
which agrees that you have failed to ensure meaningful implementation, monitoring and evaluation, and thus have failed to give properly effective executive authority conferred upon you by the Constitution. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Hon Deputy Speaker, as I answered this question the reports are given periodically about the implementation of the NDP and there is a progress that is known and that is reported all the time as I say. That department reports in a number of very serious gatherings of government. Therefore, there is progress that is being made. It is not correct to say that there is nothing or there is a failure. There is no failure.
In fact, the NDP is discussed continuously by the Cabinet looking at how far we have gone. In fact, besides that, there are outcomes that government judges itself how far it is going on a number of tasks that has been given which are tasks that are implementing the NDP. Therefore, there is no truth from the point that it is failing. It is being implemented and we are making progress not at the same level in different aspects of government. Others are moving faster than others and others are not.
However, it is moving forward. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Would not be correct, Mr President, we must assume that nobody wants to monitor and evaluate your finances and you certainly come here and really offer gets the questions. However, my really problem, Mr President, is that, in fact, recent events have shown that South Africans, particularly poor South Africans and black South Africans, are getting poorer.
When it comes to the issue of monitoring and evaluation, your government ensures that there were 100 mental ill patients whom were not looked after. It can be very clear about the fact that in the Statistic SA report that came out last week, that in fact 30,4 million South Africans are now living in poverty. It is clear that the ANC government fails poor people. I don’t think we should debate the issue.
What I want to know is what actions has your government taken noting all of these reports and the monitoring and evaluation reports, in fact, to deal with the situation
of poor people and the absolute level of poverty increasing under your watch and this government that sits here, for specially for poor South Africans who are sitting at home. Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF RSA: Hon Deputy Speaker, certainly, this government has worked and has made progress. We have, as government, reported in this Parliament through Ministers. They have made a report about what progress they have made. In addition to that, everybody agrees that in South Africa the poor people are better off than what they were in general. We are aware that there has been a report by the Statistic SA that was indicating some shortcomings that have been there, but no one can say that we have not made progress. Poor people agree that we have made progress. That is a question of how far do you deal with the legacy of where we come from, because there are specific things that make our people, perhaps the pace to be slower than it would have been in other countries.
Therefore, we have made progress. We have not claimed that we have solved all problems. We have always said
that we have made progress, but there are still many challenges because of the tasks that we have to deal with of the legacy of apartheid. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Question 17:
The PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Proclamation has been signed and was referred to the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development for publication. I thank you.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Ndiyabonga. Mr President, I welcome your decision to issue the Proclamation on SAA and I think naturally the question has to ask, there are problems with the other SOEs and I want to look at one in particular, because my earlier question which you did not answer highlighted the fact that there were business deals that you were doing.
Now another close associate of yours is the chair of SAA, and the real challenges that over the past number of years, SAA has been given R23,3 billion of poor people’s money. We have taken poor people’s money to subsidise an airline that is run by close associate of yours.
Isn’t it about time that we take a decisive action and remove the board especially Miss Myeni out of that board of SAA, get a competent leadership so we can turn the airline around and deliver on state owned enterprises?
Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, definitely the question is in connection with SABC not SAA. So I don’t know what is happening. Please!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I agree with you. Eh! That’s a different issue altogether hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... SOEs. [Inaudible.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Eh! On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon President!
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Gardee! Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Like on your own you have a choice because it is completely irrelevant. So you have a choice President.
Mr G A GARDEE: That’s a proper ruling I was coming there.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee! Don’t speak when you are not recognised, the rules say that. So please obey the rule. You check it there are in front of you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, with respect. I don’t think it is fair for you as a supposedly impartial chair to rule that somebody’s question is irrelevant.
It is not irrelevant, it maybe it is not to your liking but I don’t know if it is correct for you as a presiding officer to be saying things are irrelevant. It is not irrelevant.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, I have ruled on this matter, the President is going to decide how he deals with that question.
The President: Huh! [Laughter.] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Firstly, the specific company that you are referring to of the SAA – this company has never been on top of the world. It has had problems all the time, long before the people who are working there now.
You would absolutely appreciate that at one point we had to get an expert from the United States, who also did not help the problem.
In fact, the people you are referring to now – the fact that the portfolio committee for the first time got a report of corruption in SAA is because of the people you are talking about who made that possible. We did not get that report from all others who have been there before, and that report indicates that corruption has been going on for a long time.
What has happen is that a decision has been taken to recapitalise the SAA and turn it around. There are also other plans to deal with the SAA, which will be announced not long so that it becomes the company that we all want.
I don’t think you can blame anyone on a company that have been in difficulties for a long time. You can blame any people ... [Interjection.] ... a long list of saying these are the people ...[Interjection.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, the President cannot stand up here and lie. There was Mam Siza Mzimela here.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee!
Mr G A GARDEE: It can’t happen that we are told that there have been problems in SAA long before a girlfriend Dudu Myeni took over there.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, you are not supposed to talk when you are not recognised.
Mr G A GARDEE: No, but you are not doing your job Deputy Speaker. You are not doing your job Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you must also withdraw that the President is lying.
Mr G A GARDEE: Oh! He is misrepresenting the truth.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw!
Mr G A GARDEE: He is misrepresenting the truth.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, my question to you is please withdraw. Please withdraw!
Mr G A GARDEE: No, we withdraw lying but he is misrepresenting the truth and very economic with the facts.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, Rule 79 says you may not speak when you are not recognised. Now, sit down. [Interjection.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Oh now you are trying to find something else we have dealt with the other one.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sit down, no, no, no. Sit down hon member. Take your seat hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: We are saying the President must find a way to answer the question correctly and not tell us wrong things here.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we switched off your mic. Hon member, I switched off your mic.
Mr G A GARDEE: No, don’t switch it off. Eh!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am. I have already.
Isixhosa:
Mr G A GARDEE: Uyadelela ngoku! Uqalile ke ngoku ukudelela!
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that gesture is out of order and you must stop doing that hon member. Hon member, you must stop doing that, it is out of order. Those gestures are out of order.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Point of order eh, Deputy Speaker!
Mr H P CHAUKE: Deputy Speaker, point of order!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can you please be in order.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Chauke why?
Mr H P CHAUKE: Deputy Speaker, the hon member has just said Uyadelela and I see that you are just leaving it. I thought you would ... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!
Dr M Q NDLOZI: He is the first one to use that word in Parliament.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I am speaking here.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: It’s his word.
Mr H P CHAUKE: It’s unparliamentary.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: It’s his word.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!
Dr M Q NDLOZI: He coined the word “delela” in Parliament Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members!
Mr M M DLAMINI: You were not here.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: You were not here “Tatana” we understand. You were still with Supra there in the North West. Delela was introduced by that man on stage.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you take your seat. Hon member, I’m switching off your mic. I am switching off your mic. You may not speak when you were not recognised and you are out of order in the language you are using here.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Deputy Speaker, can you recognise me in the point of order?
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, you can’t say to a person you are not recognised but withdraw. How do they withdraw if you did not recognise them? No, but!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member, please stop playing semantics - and that’s playing semantics.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Do you... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! If you stand up here and semantic unparliamentary remarks, you must withdraw them it does not matter under what circumstances.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Which rule talks about semantics?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat, take your seat! Hon President, please proceed.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, before you proceed.
Isizulu:
Kancane nje baba kaDuduzane.
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, nobody appointed you hon member. Nobody recognises you.
Mr M M DLAMINI: But you won’t do it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Don’t say anybody ... [Interjection.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: No, Ae, don’t rush!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not ... [Interjection.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: No, relax. Don’t rush.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not recognised, okay and you will not speak. I’m switching off your mic. I’m switching off your mic.
Mr M M DLAMINI: This thing of ubaba kaDuduzane... [Interjection.] He must stop lying to Parliament. Baba kaDuduzane must stop lying to Parliament...
Interjection.] ...the part we are dealing with.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. Take your seat. Take your seat hon member. Please take your seat.
Ms H O HLOPE: Speaker! Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: And members, eh! We have a business before us. What are you rising on hon member? What’s your point of order?
Ms H O HLOPE: A point of order is that ubaba kaDuduzane can’t come and distort facts here. Siza – SAA was very well under Siza Mzimela. So SAA is going down under your girlfriend Baba.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I’m now stopping you from talking because you refuse to... [Interjection.]
Ms H O HLOPE: Your girlfriend is messing up.
Isizulu:
Ms M S KHAWULA: Ngempela lamadoda amabili enzani laphaya. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
Mr H P CHAUKE: I think that we – my mic is off. No, no, we really rely on the presiding officers to maintain the decorum of the House. A member has just said now that – something very bad which I can’t repeat it myself; and the speaker I think that ... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, okay.
Mr H P CHAUKE: ...and I think that you should really make a proper ruling because it is uncalled for that we go to this extend. Please Deputy Speaker.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker! Rule 91 Deputy Speaker it is not the Deputy Speaker’s responsibility to maintain the decor of the House, that’s the Household Services’ responsibility. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we have a duty, hon members ... [Interjection
Mr G A GARDEE: No, no hon Steenhuisen, that’s semantics already. It is just semantics. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can I proceed? Hon members, we have a duty here to ensure the smooth conduct of proceedings. We also have to ensure that the privileges of all members of the sitting are protected.
If a member does not wish to participate in the proceedings he or she is free to do so. Such a position however cannot mean that the House must be prevented from carrying out its Constitutional mandate. What I see now is the abuse of the privilege of freedom of speech and that is unacceptable. I warn members, eh! I’m not taking any further points of order on this matter because this procedure ... [Interjection.]
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: On a point of order Deputy Speaker, you can’t make a ruling like that.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I’m still addressing. You may not do that.
Ms E N NTLANGWINI: You can’t.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, Rule 79 says you may not speak if you are not recognised. [Interjection.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: Deputy Speaker, don’t behave like you are a headman here.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: When a presiding officer addresses the House ... [Interjection.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: This is not some rural meeting here that you come with your own rules. You are going to take the points of orders here.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, when a presiding officer
– I’m switching off your mic.
Mr M M DLAMINI: And we are not asking for permission from you we are telling you straight.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members... [Interjection.] ...him or herself like this is acting disorderly ... [Interjection.]
Mr M M DLAMINI: Order Deputy Speaker! You are out of order Deputy Speaker you must withdraw your statement.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ...or act in ... [Interjection.] that of the Chair. A member who does this will be asked to leave the Chamber in terms of Rule 70.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Order Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker, order!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we have now pointed out the rules to you. [Interjection.]
Mr H P CHAUKE: There is no rule that suspends the application of rules.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do not violate them. We now proceed with the business of the House. Hon Plouamma, your supplementary question!
Mr H P CHAUKE: Deputy, – oh Plouamma!
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Thank you – you have switched off.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, order!
Ms M S KHAWULA: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon member! Order! Your heckling is becoming disruptive. Order, proceed hon Plouamma!
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Thank you hon Deputy Speaker. Hon President, former Minister of Communication Faith Muthambi and Mr Hlaudi Motsoeneng have left the SABC in tatters, and it is believed that they enjoy your company. Why are you always associated with incompetent or corrupt characters? When are you going to fire Minister Faith Muthambi?
The PRESIDENT: [Laughter.] Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. I’m not firing Minister Muthambi. I have not taken that decision. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, you have a Minister who leaked Cabinet memos here in terms of the Gupta leaks. [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what rule is that?
Mr G A GARDEE: You have got eh, eh, eh - “ubaba la” saying he is not going to – the question says... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, hon member! The rules do not allow you to do that.
Mr G A GARDEE: ...What are the reasons for his delay to sign a Proclamation? He must answer that question. And the next question is why he didn’t fire that Minister there.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the President has responded to that question. Now take your seat now.
Mr G A GARDEE: Ehe! He has responded, he has not replied and gives an answer. There is a difference between response and giving an answer and he is going to give an answer here. You are going to give an answer Baba. Deputy Speaker, just wait, just wait, chini!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are being disruptive now. Take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: We are not disruptive – you are disruptive. You are disrupting the House. You are disrupting the House Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, stop disrupting the House.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are challenging the chair and that is out of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: Don’t do that. Don’t do that Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we are going to request you because you are not... [Interjection.]
Mr G A GARDEE: That is not going to happen Deputy Speaker, ungaqali kudelela ngoku!
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have asked you to take your seat. I now ask you again to take your seat so that this proceeding can proceed. Hon members, your conduct is now not only interrupting with the ability of the House to proceed... [Interjection.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, give that directive to the President Mr Zuma. He must actually answer the question. No ways.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... but you are also disregarding the authority of the chair, and if you do not take your seat I will have to ask you to leave the Chamber.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, with due respect, I shall take my seat but you definitely have a responsibility.
You have a Constitutional responsibility Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I now ask the Sergeant- at-Arms to help the member out.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, Ae, Deputy Speaker, no, no, no, no, no, no. Deputy Speaker, stop with those semantics of yours. Nobody is going to leave here on the basis that a President does not want to answer questions. He must leave, not anybody in the House.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!
Dr M Q NDLOZI: We are insistent, we have been here, we want answers he doesn’t answer; and then you instruct hon members to leave the House. How can that be?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ndlozi, nobody asked you to speak, you were not recognised... [Interjection.]
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Nobody has to the people of South Africa asked me to. I don’t speak on your permission. You don’t have to ask me to speak.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are continually ... [Interjection.] You are disruptive.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: I’m challenging your ruling, hon Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I also ask you now if you do not take your seat ... [Interjection.]
Dr M Q NDLOZI: You can’t chase Members of the House out, on the basis of demanding answers from ubaba kaDuduzane, then you are rendering this session useless.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member! You, you and hon Gardee - Hon members, I have now spoken enough and I ask Gardee and hon Ndlozi to leave the House.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: We are sitting here with the person who is not answering questions and you are saying we must stay here for non answers.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sergeant-at-Arms, please approach the two members... [Interjection.]
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Why must I leave the House, why must I leave the House?
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee and hon Ndlozi!
Dr M Q NDLOZI: But why must I leave the House?
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Consistently refuse to obey the rulings of the chair. I now ask you to approach them and request that.
Mr J S MALEMA: You are defending a criminal of note against hon members. You are defending a criminal against hon members who are doing their job.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are also speaking, disobeying the request that you speak only when you are recognised. Hon member!
Mr J S MALEMA: They are here doing their job executing a mandate given to them by South Africans.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sergeant-at-Arms I have requested you to approach the members please help them to leave.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, you cannot defend the number one criminal at the expense of the Constitution and holding a criminal accountable.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I’m defending the rules of the House. This institution must be conducted properly.
Mr J S MALEMA: You are defending a criminal.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Nobody asked you to speak.
Mr J S MALEMA: He must be held accountable and that’s what we are doing here. That’s what we are doing here. That’s what we are elected to do.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: [Inaudible.]
Mr J S MALEMA: If wena (you) you came here for salary only, we didn’t come here for salary only. Call those people to come and kick us.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I’m now switching off the mics.
Ms L A MATHYS: Deputy Speaker, why are you... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have warned you.
Isizulu:
Ms M S KHAWULA: Nimxosheleni uManana?
English:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have asked those members approached to leave the House.
Ms L A MATHYS: But you haven’t asked me I’m standing on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, kindly leave the House as requested.
Ms L A MATHYS: Which member...? [Interjection.]
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker! ... [Interjection.] ... must sit down.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Members that were told. Hon Malema, I requested you not to speak when you are not recognised. I requested you to do that.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Why do you want to chase us out? People have been disrupting here you didn’t chase them out.
Ms L A MATHYS: What are we going to do?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I request you to leave the House.
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The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, hon Gardee, hon Ndlozi, I have pointed out to you. Hon members must kindly leave.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, you said I should sit down and I sat down. I sat down. You requested I sat down, I sat down.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Switch on here!
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Can we address you Deputy Speaker? Can we address you for the last time?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All of you members who are on your feet I have requested you. You are being disruptive. You are not meant to do that.
Mr G A GARDEE: You know you requested me to sit down I sat down here.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Hee, Deputy Speaker! Switch on, switch on!
Ms L A MATHYS: We can stop being ... [Interjection.] We are disrupting corruption.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Aa those ones!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Eh! The Sergeant-at-Arms, order hon members!
Mr M M DLAMINI: Let them come.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members, order!
Mr J S MALEMA: Le a utswa man.
Mr G A GARDEE: Le a utswa baba kaDuduzane.
Dr M Q NDLOZI: Uyadelela!
Ms L A MATHYS: Disrupting corruption.
AN HON MEMBER: You must protect your criminal, voetsek!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members! Please be in order, we must now proceed with the business of the House.
Ms L A MATHYS: Disrupting corruption. We are disrupting corruption.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order hon members!
Prof N M KHUBISA: Eh Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, thank you very much. Hon President, I ... [Interjection.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please stop doing that, this is actually disruptive. You are yourself becoming disruptive now. If you want to join them outside please do so with pleasure, with the greatest of pleasure.
Please!
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon President, I believe that there is nexus between this very question and the question you answered when you arrived here in June. The question was about arresting all these things that are tarnishing the image of the country and I refer specifically to the appointment of the Judicial Commission of Inquiry.
The hon President made an undertaking by saying that, that was sacrosanct and there was a need for an agency in appointing a Judicial Commission of Inquiry; but the question is, Your Excellency: Will that be an undertaking from your side that there will be no further delays?
I’m saying this because there are other issues that are playing out in the media for instance the debacle that is reported in the media with reference to the Department of Finance. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I have said so here and I have said it today that I’m in the process of establishing the Commission of Inquiry. I have been working with the legal people to work on it and that is what is happening and it will be announced in due course. Thank you very much.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Arising from your response on the SIU Proclamation hon President, in addition to the time taken for such a Proclamation one of the main challenges facing the SIU is that of insufficient funding for its complex investigation such as the SABC inquiry and the irregularities there.
You yourself President, in February this year you quoted on 43 government departments and institutions who owe the SIU more than R418 million to pay the outstanding debt.
Would you not agree that by not paying those debts they
are frustrating the completion of the investigations where departments are clearly implicated? It serves them not to pay their debt to the SIU; and this is clearly unturnable, and if so what do you intend doing to address this, to ensure that the SIU is fully funded to fight corruption and maladministration. I thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. With regard to the delay to this particular SIU investigation it had nothing to do with the lack of finances. What had happened is that the matters to be investigated were put in the application and some of the matters put there were put together with the matters that were investigated already.
So that application had to be cleaned up. It was a process on its own. It was not because of the lack of funds. So I wouldn’t answer that question because with regards to this one, that was not the case. The case was that the application had to be put properly and that has been done and that’s why it has been signed. Thank you very much.
Question 18:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, we launched Operation Phakisa in 2014 to promote faster implementation of the undertakings made in the National Development Plan, NDP, to our people, to promote economic growth and job creation. Operation Phakisa is unique in that it brings together sectors that hardly plan together
- business, labour, academia, and government to work out the most ideal plans to achieve growth and development in a particular sector.
We have begun to implement the programme in six areas – the ocean economy, building ideal clinics, promoting information and communication technologies in schools, promoting growth in the mining sector as well as agriculture and rural development and biodiversity and tourism. The ocean economy has attracted R24 billion in investments. The Department of Trade and Industry has provided incentives to the value of R428 million.
The global amount of R24 billion consists of investments from different components of the ocean economy. The Maritime Transport and Manufacturing Delivery Unit has
secured investments to the value of R5,6 billion while the oil and gas component unlocked a total of
R18,4 billion. Aquaculture has raised R444 million, Marine Protection Services and Governance, R31 million and Coastal and Marine Tourism, R40 million. Skills development is a core component of the ocean economy. A total of 614 women have been trained in marine manufacturing and 733 women in the marine transport sector. More than a thousand youth have been trained in marine manufacturing and close to 200 in marine transport sectors.
The Operation Phakisa Ideal Clinic Programme is aimed at improving quality of care at our Primary Health Care, PHC, facilities. An ideal clinic is one with good infrastructure, adequate staff, adequate medicine and supplies, good administrative processes and sufficient bulk supplies that use applicable clinical policies, protocols, guidelines, as well as partner and stakeholder support. All these elements are important in order to ensure the provision of quality health services are given to the community.
By the end of June 2017, a total of 1108 clinics in the public sector had achieved the ideal clinic status.
This performance translates to 32% of the existing stock of 3 477 PHC facilities. The set target is that 2 823 PHC facilities should reach the ideal clinic status by March 2019. Operation Phakisa in the basic education sector promotes the use of Information and Communication Technology, ICT, for teaching and learning. Since this Phakisa was launched in October 2015, a total of 3 455 schools have been connected to the internet and received devices.
Approximately 54% of the more than 25 000 schools had acquired connectivity through various technologies. A total of 31 800 teachers have been trained in various levels of ICT skills. In this way, the outdated methods of teaching and learning are being rapidly replaced as teachers and learners move towards 21st century approaches. The Operation Phakisa mining programme awaits finalisation by the affected departments so that implementation can begin.
The main aim of Operation Phakisa in agriculture, land reform and rural development is to stimulate growth, foster job creation and instil transformation along the agriculture and rural development value chain, and to contribute to inclusive growth. The work of Operation Phakisa on biodiversity focuses on three work streams, which are coastal and marine tourism; bioprospecting; and wildlife. Detailed implementation plans for this Operation Phakisa have been developed. Inadequate funding for some projects emanating from different Operation Phakisa programmes is a key challenge. South Africa is utilising relations with our strategic partners to attract investment and funding, foster business partnerships and secure training opportunities.
Furthermore, we will also continue to engage directly with the private sector to understand their constraints and remove blockages in order to stimulate investments.
Government will also continue to invest in its infrastructure build programme to attract investments. I thank you Deputy Speaker.
Mr M A DIRKS: His Excellency, hon Comrade President Zuma, [Interjections.] can the Brazil Russia India China South Africa, Brics, bank assist Operation Phakisa in meeting our economic growth targets and speed up radical economic transformation hon President? Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Deputy Speaker, yes, the Brics bank is earmarked to address those issues ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: President, please take your seat. Yes hon member, what are you rising on?
Mr C MACKENZIE: Deputy Speaker, I have a point of order. Sorry for disturbing the President, the hon Dirks, on two occasions raised – I cannot even show you what that sign was – but it is one finger in my hand that he raised towards a member on this side of the House. Could you explain why he is allowed to use that unparliamentary behaviour? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Dirks, I hope you did not do that. [Interjections.] No, hon members, hon Dirks denies it. Hon members, I addressed this question of gestures earlier ... [Inaudible.] the Rules are very explicit about that. Let us not do that ... we will do that hon
... [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Deputy Speaker, as I was saying that the Brics is indeed poised to help develop the economies particularly from the developing countries and many others and therefore the issue of it assisting the countries in many respects is growing. They have already first called the projects that have been approved and they are waiting for more projects and they are raising more money. Bear in mind that the bank is new and it is therefore working very well. We are satisfied as members of Brics that it is doing its best and it will therefore address those questions. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Eesthuizen ... [Interjections.] Esterhuizen, baie dankie [Thank you very much] I will learn to say it better next time. Thank you very much hon
Van der Merwe, I am listening to your guidance. [Laughter.] Please go ahead. [Laughter.]
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: I will give the President his moment of humour. Deputy Speaker, like the NDP that the President has mentioned business could have been sceptical of such a centralised approach to business but I embraced and have already spent billions but unfortunately that is where it ended, that is where it stayed, only a plan. Mr President, my question, State- Owned Enterprises, SOEs, are crucial for Phakisa’s success but currently most are depending on government bailouts for survival and how can you expect investors to support this initiative when financial institutions within South Africa are stopping to lend money to SOEs because these SOEs or State-Owned Enterprises are being used for personal monetary gain by certain individuals?
Now, how can you ensure the investors and the private sector for a continued support for Phakisa? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No, the investors are investing. It is not a question whether you could expect them to do that, they are doing it. They are investing.
They can see the potential of Operation Phakisa in different sectors. So it is not a question of speculating whether they will participate or not, they are participating. Thank you Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gqada.
Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker, I think there must have been an error.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, alright.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, I think all of us can agree that the only way you keep a programme such as this functioning well is by building a capable state, ours is captured, is eradicating corruption and providing leadership, which does not exist. Now, the fundamentals in this instance is that 9,3 million South Africans are without work at this point in time. My crucial question to you, whilst we are being downgraded to junk status, whilst we are in recession, the fundamental reasons have been because your decision to recycle the finance Minister every single time, do you
not believe it is about time that you make coherent policy process and stop the business of recycling finance Ministers or maybe give the nation reasons why you keep changing finance Ministers or are we ever going to get to a point where we bring stability to policy and leadership in this country under your tenure?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: There is in this country a situation that is found globally. Many countries because of the economic breakdown are in difficulties. They have been in difficulties, some of them worse than South Africa. In fact, at a time when the economy was challenging the globe, South Africa was performing even better than its equal countries. Now, I do not think, you say as if South Africa is just on its own. Every country has been affected including old economies and they did not change any Ministers and you cannot say therefore if there is a change in government that is what caused the economy. No, and I am saying there has been countries in difficulties without the Minister being changed, do not make that if a Minister is changed that means you are then causing economic problems. [Interjections.] They change all the time, leaving aside the attitude of
business particularly in South Africa which has a particular kind of attitude. So, all I am saying, you cannot pin down the economic position of South Africa to a removal of a Minister. Even though I am saying in other countries there was no Minister taken out and the economies were down, some of them were at a point where it was very difficult. [Interjections.] I am just correcting you. That is just politicking that it was was because of the Minister.
Ministers have been changed in this country but at a particular time because of the economic situation globally then the situation became what it is. I am just correcting that because you are making it as if once you change a Minister then the economy goes down. That is not the truth. In South Africa we have faced other kind of challenges which we dealt with and we are dealing with those. It is not because of the actions of government only because the economy has been not functioning with those Ministers in place.
AN HON MEMBER: No, but with you in place.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Umhh! So I am just saying you cannot base your question as if it is the magic wand that once you remove a Minister, the economy goes down. There have been many economies that have gone down big and small and they are recovering. South Africa is part of the global economy. It cannot escape the economic problems. Thank you, madam ... Deputy Speaker ... [Laughter.] not madam. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Deputy Speaker, Mr President, you talk about jobs, ideal clinics, throughout the country. Now, first of all let me start off at ... [Inaudible.] I will give you an example of an area in Ugu where people have to travel almost 50 kilometres just to get a clinic KwaNguza Gumatane Ndilande. Then let me add, we talk about ideal clinics, just this week a Mr Lesley Clifford died because he had been going to the Mitchell’s Plein Day Hospital every day and had been turned away without being served and died there mercilessly at that hospital.
Now, on the one hand we talk about creating clinics but our people are dying every day and I want to add that a deployed member in the Western Cape, the service in terms
of the health sector in the Western Cape leaves a lot to be desired. Thank you Mr ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]
IsiZulu:
ISEKELA LIKASOMLOMO: Hayi! Ayihlangene nhlobo nalombuzo olana mhlonishwa Mongameli.
Question 19:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Our country has made considerable progress in the fight against gender-based violence thanks to the collaboration on this programme by government, civil society and communities.
Given the high levels of domestic violence and also violence against women and children in general, government has responded with legislation as well strengthening the criminal justice system, in addition to awareness campaigns such as the 16 Days of Activism for no Violence against Women and Children.
The Constitution of the Republic is the foremost law that enshrines the right of women to dignity, equality, security and other rights. We also have legislation such
as the Domestic Violence Act, the Protection from Harassment Act and the Amended Sexual Offences and Related Matters Act as instruments to be utilised for recourse.
Government has opened 60 Sexual Offences Courts. These courts are aimed at increasing conviction rates and to minimise the secondary victimisation of rape survivors.
There are also domestic violence courts in all magistrate courts which grant protection orders under both the Domestic Violence Act and the Protection from Harassment Act.
Further, the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units have been reintroduced in police stations.
There are currently more than a thousand designated victim empowerment rooms at police stations for purposes of enabling statements of the survivors of sexual offences, domestic violence, trafficking and other traumatised individuals to be taken in private. Where there are no designated victim friendly rooms,
alternative arrangements must be made for the taking of statements in private.
There are specialised investigators who investigate sexual offences, some family-related crimes and all child abuse crimes. In addition the Hawks investigate all cases of human trafficking and organised crime.
Government has also established Thuthuzela Care Centres which operate as 24 hours daily centres for victims of sexual assault and other related offences in order to provide comprehensive support to victims of violence. The centres are run in partnership between the Departments of Health, Social Development, Police and Justice and Constitutional Development. As a result of dedicated investigations, a total of 5 41 life sentences were achieved during the past financial year.
Importantly, the police are being trained to implement these laws. The curriculum at police training centres now also includes a module on gender-based violence and each police station has to ensure that all officers get this training.
We need to do a lot more still to change attitudes towards women. More also needs to be done to empower women, report cases of abuse and for family members and others, not to prevent them from reporting perpetrators if they are close to them or known to the family.
I thank you.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon President, I think legislation alone will not help us if your Cabinet is not leading by example. Therefore, I would like to ask you whether you would conceive that your government having granted diplomatic immunity to Mrs Grace Mugabe has completely made a mockery of our rule of law and also made a mockery of all our efforts to fight violence and abuse.
Secondly, you have missed the part of the question where I ask you about the comments that the hon Minister of Social Development made when she said that in your Cabinet there are worse abusers of women than Mr Manana. Therefore, I want to know from you, who are these people that are abusing women? Will you take steps against the Minister of Social Development for harbouring criminals? And what steps are you, personally, taking to ensure that
those guilty parties would be reported to authorities? Because, Mr President, if you don’t act yourself then you, the Minister of Socials Development, the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation and the hon the Manana are all guilty of abuse of women. I thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, firstly, we have done everything to create structures and the laws that we are talking about so that people who commit such crimes are reported and law takes its course. Standing here, I don’t know who the people abusing women are. I am sure those who will have knowledge will know what to do in order to deal with that. Therefore, I cannot answer your question fully because I don’t know. In my Cabinet, I don’t know, I have not seen anyone. I am sure if I knew, I would be able to report. Thank you Deputy Speaker.
IsiXhosa:
Nks N N MAFU: Sekela Somlomo ...
Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, may I rise on a point of order, Sir?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Singh, just hold on hon Mafu. Yes, what is your point of order?
Mr N SINGH: Deputy Speaker, we are required as members of this House to submit questions to the office of the President at least 16 days before the President comes to this House. Now, the hon Van der Merwe is quite correct, a question directed at the President is very specific – part b – and there was no answer to this question. We would really like the office of the President to know that when we send these questions in advance we expect them to research the answers and provide them to the President.
The PRESIDENT: I thought that was directed to you. Was it directed to me? I thought he was just telling you that when the questions are sent to the office of the President, this is what is expected. In so far as the question is concerned, I was saying we have structures and laws that deal with these matters. I heard somebody saying that I know there are some people beating up their women. He or she is not saying to the President: President, I know so and so is beating up their women.
How am I going to know who those people are? I said I don’t know who those people in the Cabinet are. That is different from whether the question has been answered or not. I am answering the question and I answered the question.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE; Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order hon member?
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Deputy Speaker, I also asked the President whether he would give an undertaking that he would engaged the Minister so that he can get the details himself and show some leadership. It is no good to tell us that he is passionate or committed to fighting gender- based violence, but he is not willing to take any action himself. I also asked him about Grace Mugabe’s pretext of diplomatic immunity and what message that will send to our fight against gender-based violence. He did not answer anything.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before you respond, Mr President, can I remind members and Whips in particular, to find a way to change the Rules to allow one to ask three or four supplementary questions. We are placed in an invidious position as presiding officers to rule that you have asked three or four supplementary questions. This means that, if the President has partially answered any part of those questions, then he may not have answered even your legitimate question. Therefore, Whips, please attend to that. We are not here to do that. President you may respond.
The PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, well, I have no difficult in asking the Minister now that the issue has been raised in Parliament. She is a Member of this Parliament as well. I cannot, if people make remarks in every corner, go to them to ask what they are talking about. I am sure I will be running up and down asking people, absolutely. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mafu ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, I want to address you in terms of Rule 80(4) of the Rules of the National Assembly, if I may. The problem with telling untruths is that they come back to bite you. Now, you asked the hon Dirks just now whether he had made that unparliamentary gesture, and he told you, Deputy Speaker, that he had not. Unfortunately, he’s been caught on the parliamentary channel and on two news channels with his middle finger pointing up. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
So, not only did he behave in an unparliamentary way, he lied to you, Sir. And I would suggest to you that lying to the presiding officer is a very serious offence and that he should be held to account.
You can’t throw people out of the House when they are exercising their rights but allow someone to get away
with blatantly lying to you as the presiding officer. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, that matter and the use of cellphones in the House will be addressed to the committee that is appropriate to handle that. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. We will do that.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, may I just say to you, Sir, this has nothing to do with the use of cellphones in the House. This was caught on footage.
It’s now doing its rounds on social media. You need to restore the dignity of this House.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, and that’s how I do it. [Interjections.] And that’s how I do it. This matter ... Hon member, this is exactly ... We will address all those issues interlinked and altogether. We will do that. [Interjections.] You have passed Rules. I have just commented about the Rules you make, and then you conveniently want to skip some of them and use others.
That will not be allowed.
Hon Mafu, please go ahead and respond to your question here.
IsiXhosa:
Nks N N MAFU: Mongameli woMzantsi Afrika, siyabulela ngempendulo yakho. Umbuzo wam uthi: Ingaba akhona kusini na amanyathelo awathathayo urhulumente ukuqinisekisa umanyano kuluntu, intsebenziswano, ukunyamezelena, neenkqubo zokulwa izenzo zobundlobongela ezigxile kwisini nokhuselo lwamalungelo abantu basetyhini emisebenzini,kumasebe karhulumente nakwilizwe jikelele?
Okwesibini, ingaba ngawaphi amanyathelo anokuthathwa kwabo baziinkokheli namagosa aphezulu karhulumente awo naliphi na iqela lezopolitiko athi abonwe ephembelele izenzo zobundlobongela ezigxile kwisini nokunyhashwa kwamalungelo abantu basetyhini. Ndiyabulela Mongameli.
IsiXhosa:
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHLIKI YOMZANTSI AFRIKA: Njengoko
bendikhe ndatsho ngaphambili ukuba ikhona imithetho neendlela zokuba kujongwe okanye kuqwalaselwe abantu abanyhasha amalungelo abo basetyhini. Bonke abantu abanyhasha amalungelo abanye,nokuba nguMaphathiswa,
iLungu lePalamente okanye nokuba ngubanina, kufuneka bafumane isohlwayo kuba umthetho awukhethi ukuba umntu ngubani na. Xa umntu engathobeli umthetho kunyenzelekile ukuba ajongane nengalo yomthetho kuba wophula umthetho waseMzantsi Afrika. Loo nto icacile ingakumbi xa umntu esiza nobungqina balowo umoshileyo ngaphambili. Loo mntu kufuneka abanjwe kuba umthetho wenzelwe izinto ezinjalo.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you. Dr Makhosi Khoza voted ... or, well, she stood up to you. And you said: There must be witch-hunt against her. You said: Those people must be prosecuted. The question is actually quite simple, Mr President. On what grounds did Grace Mugabe get diplomatic immunity for? On what basis? It’s as simple as that. She came here, she beat up a young South African woman and we want to know why the South African government allowed here to leave under the guise of diplomatic immunity. [Applause.] That’s all.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I am told that the DA’s constitution is clear in that if a member of the
DA votes against the DA, he or she is automatically out of the party. So you can’t comment on the matter ... what the ANC is doing. [Interjections.] That’s what I am told: that you don’t even do the witch-hunt. Once they vote, they’re out. [Applause.] [Interjections.] So that one ...
With regard to Mrs Mugabe, now I’m not a lawyer. I don’t know the points of law and I was not involved in this process. [Interjections.] How it has been done I would be lying if I speculate – what were the facts that were put, because I was not in that department dealing with that matter. So I’m not going to give you an answer that is not there. [Interjections.] Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon President, hon Deputy Speaker, I think, hon President, we must admit that truth and honesty have long departed your administration. Why can’t you admit that you are afraid of Robert Mugabe? [Interjections.] Therefore, his wife can beat anyone even in South Africa. The less said about Mduduzi Manana the better.
Hon President, why are we paying you? Because it seems you have opened our country to abuse. When are you going to start leading, hon President? [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Firstly, I have not opened the country to any abuse. [Interjections.] Part of the reason why we have the laws in the country is that when somebody commits a crime here there are ... [Interjections.] ... law enforcement entities that deal with that.
In so far as the matter we are referring to, the police were very active and very involved dealing with that.
What I’m not saying ... I’m not a lawyer. I don’t know what happened and how the matter at the end came to the point that it did. [Interjections.] So, all I’m saying is that the right actions were taken. The police were there. They dealt with the matter. Then the issue of diplomatic conditions came about and actions were taken. All I am saying is that I can’t give that detail not being aware of what actually happened. I can’t lie. Why do you say that the truth has run away? Because I am telling the truth? [Interjections.] What’s your problem? You know, if
for example, you did not want to come to Parliament to politick ... If you were interested in it, you would have gone to the police station where the case was put and you would have the facts. But you just want to politick. You want me to talk. You want me to discuss the matter, the details of which I don’t know. [Interjections.] Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Mr H P CHAUKE: I think we have just been exposed to something that is shocking, really. If there is a clinic or a doctor – we need to attend to that member quickly, because a member was doing something in the House which was abnormal. [Interjections.] Can you attend to that ... [Inaudible.] ... ?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no. Hon Chauke, no.
The House adjourned at 17:03.
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