Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 09 Nov 2016

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD


WEDNESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2016
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:04.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

THE COUNCIL TO CONSIDER THE DRAFT RESOLUTION ON “TAKING PARLIAMENT
TO THE PEOPLE” PROGRAMME

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson , Deputy President of
the Republic of South Africa, special delegates, members of this
august House, I move:

That notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of
the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council
considers the Draft Resolution on “Taking Parliament to the
People” programme, Draft Resolution on the extension of reporting

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deadline of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’
Interests and the Report of the Select Committee on Finance.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

COUNCIL TO CONDUCT OVERSIGHT AND PROVIDE A PLATFORM FOR
CONSIDERATION OF ISSUES AFFECTING PROVINCES

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson, I move:

That, in terms of Rule 21(2) and, in the interest of enhancing
public participation, conducting oversight and providing a
platform for consideration of issues affecting provinces as
provided for in section 42(4) and 72(1) of the Constitution of the
Republic of South Africa,

(1) the Council resolves to, from 14 to 18 November 2016, conduct
public hearings, hold meetings, conduct oversight visits and

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sit in plenary in the province of the Eastern Cape on 18
November 2016, at 09:00, until the conclusion of business on
that day; and

(2) the Council notes that the estimated cost of effecting the
change in venue and maintaining it for the specified period
will be approximately R5 million.

Declaration of vote:
Mr J J LONDT: Hon Chairperson, the Western Cape objects to these
draft resolutions on the account that members were not consulted on
the change to travel dates for the “Taking Parliament to the People”
programme. On the initial travel form it was indicated that members
will be going to the Eastern Cape on 14 November. We made no
objection to this. However, this date was unilaterally changed by
the Office of the Chief Whip to 18 November without consulting
members. Various members from both the government as well as the
opposition have indicated their objections hereto.

This House is aware that we serve constituencies at home and that we
have an obligation towards them as well. In order to accommodate
them, meetings were moved to 18 November as per the original
agreement and this now also have to be cancelled to the detriment of
our own constituencies. Although we support the initiative of
“Taking Parliament to the People” programme in the Eastern Cape, we
strongly object to the fact that the wording of the resolution does

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not include the time for travelling. Chairperson, we accordingly
request your permission in terms of Rule 76(c) to include the word
“travel” in the subparagraph(1). A draft amendment has been prepared
and upon your agreement, can be tabled for your convenience. The
Western Cape cannot support the Draft Resolution as it currently
appears on the Order Paper.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Western Cape objects to the Draft
Resolution. You advised me to look at Rule 76. I want to say that I
do know the concerns raised by the Western Cape. We have earlier on
addressed some of those concerns. The Draft Resolution, as I read
it, simply says that the programme of “Taking Parliament to the
People” to the Eastern Cape starts on 14 and ends on 18 November. The
concerns which were raised earlier on during the day by hon members
from all parties have been taken into consideration but cannot be
used to change the dates of the formal programme. We have also said
that those members who have concerns will be directed to relevant
people for us to have an idea. Therefore, I beg to reject the
proposal made by the Western Cape on this amendment and wish to
continue.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

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AGAINST: Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

EXTENSION OF THE DEADLINE BY WHICH THE AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE ON
ETHICS AND MEMBERS’ INTERESTS HAS TO REPORT

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Hon Chairperson, I move:

That the Council, subject to the concurrence of the National
Assembly, extends the deadline by which the Ad Hoc Joint Committee
on Ethics and Members’ Interests has to report, to 31 March 2017.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

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THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:

Funds earmarked for vaccine research/development

13.

Ms M L Moshodi (Free State: ANC) asked the Deputy President:

Whether any funds were earmarked from 1 April 2014 to 31
March 2016 for research and the development of a vaccine
that will cure HIV/Aids; if not, why not; if so, what are
the relevant details?

CO554E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP and hon members,
the global struggle to end Aids recently received a huge boost with
the start this month of what we regard as groundbreaking HIV vaccine
trials in South Africa. This vaccine trial is regarded by many as
the most scientific study in the world on HIV. What is significant
about it is that it is led by South African scientists in almost all
aspects of this research. The research and the trial will enrol
5 400 HIV negative South Africans who are aged between 18 and 35
years in 18 sites right across our country under the strictest
ethical standards of scientific research over a period of 20 months.

Half of the participants will receive five doses of the vaccine and
half will receive a placebo. The participants will be followed up
for three years to assess the efficacy of the vaccine. The estimated
cost of the trial is around R135 million and this is being done in

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partnership with private sector players as well as the public
sector. The partners in this trial are the South African Medical
Research Council, which is a government research council, the US
National Institutes of Health, the Bill and Melinda Gates
Foundation, Stanhope Pasteur, GlaxoSmithKline and the HIV Trials
Network.

The first vaccine trial using a similar vaccine was completed in
Thailand seven years ago and it reduced HIV transmission by 39%. In
our trial which will get underway scientists expect the vaccine to
be at least 50% effective but hope that it will be much more than
50%. The leading role that South Africa is playing in vaccine
research is the result of ongoing investment in HIV vaccine
development over many years. In 1999, a programme called the SA Aids
Vaccine Initiative was established through funding from the
departments of Health and Science and Technology. With the support
of development partners and the private sector, this initiative has
done much to lay the ground for the current trials that we have now
embarked upon.

Today, all government funding for HIV vaccine research is channelled
through the Medical Research Council. These includes, earmarked
funds from Treasury and funds from the Department of Science and
Technology. The total investment in Aids vaccine research are around
R35 million for 2014 to 2015 and R31 million for 2015 to 2016. In
addition to support from the private sector, the US National

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Institute of Health is contributing more than R1 billion towards
this type of research.

While such a vaccine would become the most effective prevention
method to reduce new HIV infections, the results of the trial will
only start coming through around 2022. Given the current rate of new
HIV infections particularly amongst adolescent girls and young
women, South Africa cannot afford to wait for the results of this
trial. There is work to be done right now. We need to intensify our
prevention efforts, expand our treatment programmes and act with a
good measure of urgency to change high risk behaviour and encourage
condom use, monogamous relationships, pre-exposure prophylaxis and
male medical circumcision. The start of this vaccine trial gives us
great hope but it should never make us complacent. We have no choice
but to massively increase our global investment in HIV treatment as
well as prevention so that we can end Aids by 2030, as we have
committed.

All these groundbreaking developments, are done under the auspices
of the SA Aids Vaccine Initiative. The account I have given is
testament to the progress we have made against the benchmarks that
we set for ourselves as we set up the vaccine initiative. The
developments are quite groundbreaking as I have said and they are
exciting in their extent but we need to remain focussed and make
sure that we do indeed defeat this pandemic of HIV. This is but one

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of those efforts that we have to make in order to defeat this
pandemic. Thank you very much.

Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Chairperson and Deputy President, thanks for the
progressive response. Deputy President, the South African government
has established the SA Aids Vaccine Initiative to co-ordinate and
support the development and testing of HIV vaccine in our country
with the aim of finding an affordable, effective and locally
relevant HIV vaccine. My follow up question is: what are the records
of achievements to date? Thank you, hon Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as I was saying, this is just
getting underway and as it gets underway there are quite a number of
participants that have to be recruited. It was only yesterday where
we had recruited the first two participants. As I was saying 5 400
will need to participate throughout the 18 sites and we are hoping
that we will hit our number of 5 400 of people who are prepared to
participate in this and test this whole process for the entire
period. We will only be able to see whether this becomes successful
after the trial period, but all the participants will be monitored.
We ar going to follow them throughout the entire period. The
protocols that have been set are really good and this trial is going
to have a great deal of positive efficacy. Thank you very much.

MS N P KONI: Deputy President, Fezile Khuzwayo, who got to be known
in South Africa as Khwezi recently passed away. She had for the past

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10 years lived as a foreigner in the country her father fought so
hard for. In her memory, what are you planning to do to preach
amongst the youth the need for prevention through safe sex, the need
to deal with the stigma which prevents people from seeking
treatment, to capacitate young women to deal with pressure from old
man who feel entitled to have sex with them as Mr Zuma felt entitled
to Khwezi’s body? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, I am pleased to inform the
member that the issues that she is raising about what we are going
to do to address all the points that she has raised are matters that
the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, is dealing with on an ongoing
basis. In fact, we will have a Sanac plenary session on Friday - a
plenary session which will bring together various entities and
individuals who are playing a really positive role in highlighting
the importance of fighting this pandemic and also the programmes
that we all need to embark upon.

As the hon member knows that Sanac brings together people from
various sectors of South African society, government, business,
labour, sports people, traditional leaders, community-based
organisations, you name them. All of them have, through the
strategic plan that they adopted five years ago, been able to chart
a path that addresses all those issues. For instance, addressing the
issue of stigma we have a huge programme that addresses issues of
stigma. We are going to be highlighting the issue of stigma more

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prominently on World Aids Day on 1 December in eKurhuleni when we
will bring together some 20 000 people to participate in this very
important day which is commemorated and celebrated throughout the
world.

We also have a number of programmes that address the issue of safe
sex, prevention and of various issues of how we should address
various constituencies in our country, be it men, adolescent girls,
young women, sex workers and Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and
Intersex, LGBTI, community. All those have a place of focus as we
deal with this Aids pandemic. We would like to believe that the
various programmes that we have embarked upon and the campaigns that
we participate in with the assistance of various partners that we
have from all over the world from the UN, the global fund and a
number of organisations, we are pulling our weight in South Africa.
As the member well knows, we carry the biggest burden in this
country in relation to having so many of our country men and women.

In relation to the question that you have raised about a specific
young woman who passed away, may her soul rest in peace. She is one
of those who indeed like many others we will always want to remember
as a person who was afflicted by this disease. There will be a
number of occasions and proposals on how we commemorate her life as
well as the lives of others. Remember that what she was afflicted
with is something that we have to keep on talking about so that we
ensure that as many South Africans as possible are aware of the HIV

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pandemic and do not fall prey to it. That is what she would also
have wanted. Thank you very much.

Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, it is indeed very encouraging to hear
the news about the research into HIV vaccine development even more
encouraging to hear the coming to the party of the private sector in
this. The Deputy President mentioned the amounts expanded or
budgeted for during two financial years which I think in view of the
cost of research and our South African situation massive impact of
HIV/Aids on our economy and population in general, may perhaps be
regarded as a bit conservative. The R24 million and I think it was
R35 million, two cash based on that. I would like to know whether
those funds from government were actually expanded during those
years, and what is the current situation of our government’s
contribution in the current financial year to this research?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, yes, those amounts may appear
conservative, but at the same time if the member listened carefully
to me, our research efforts on HIV also benefits from the generous
assistance partnerships and working together with a number of
stakeholders. As I indicated we work in a multidimensional and
multipartnership manner. We have a number of partners around the
world who support the work that we are doing. Remember that our work
is not only limited to research on HIV vaccine, it is
multidimensional - it cuts across a number of other areas of the
work that we need to do. The good thing is that we have a

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partnership going where the US funding organisations will be pumping
up to a R1 billion to assist in the research effort on its own
together with a number of other initiatives that they embarked on.
The South African government, yes, does pay this amount in research,
but let us remember that more money is being paid and dispensed by
the South African government for treatment.

The antiretroviral which are now being made available to 3,4 million
South Africans requires billions of rands. Quite a bit of the budget
goes into treatment, some of it goes into research and quite a
portion of it goes into the whole number of other programmes. This
is where the South Africa then gets a lot of assistance from a
number of partners - the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the
Global Fund, President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, Pepfar,
which is the US government one and a number of others. The German
government also assists us. We have a plethora of programmes that
are underway and money is then distributed right across the board.
The money that is available for this year escapes my mind right now,
but there is money that has been set aside for research. Some of it
as I conclude comes from the Health department and some from the
Science and Technology. Indeed other departments also participate in
one shape, form or another. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Withdrawal from ICC

14.

Mr C Hattingh (North West: DA) asked the Deputy President:

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Whether the departure of a certain person (name furnished)
from the Waterkloof Airforce Base had any negative impact
on (a) South Africa’s international relations and (b) the
decision to withdraw from the International Criminal Court;
if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are
the relevant details?

CO557E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair and hon members, since the advent
of democracy in our country in 1994, South Africa has been resolute
in its efforts to promote the peaceful resolution of conflicts
around the world, but more importantly on our continent.

South Africa has been active on peace efforts in several African
countries, and indeed in other parts of the world. Our approach to
the issue of the International Criminal Court, ICC, is therefore
informed by extensive experience of the demands, as well as the
challenges of achieving peace, working for peace, reconciliation,
and reconstruction.

For the South African government, this is not about theory, it is
largely about practice that is born out of the experience that we
have gathered on the ground and on the job. South Africa is
committed to the protection of human rights and the fight against
impunity, a commitment that was forged during our years of struggle.

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We condemn in the strongest terms, human rights violations and
international crimes wherever they may occur and call upon those who
are responsible to held accountable, and this is a commitment that
we have made and we will continue with it. But we must also be
certain that the prosecution of perpetrators is not pursued at the
expense of peace.

South Africa played a significant role in the establishment of the
ICC, and was one of the first signatories of the Rome Statute. While
remain firmly committed to the objectives of the international
criminal court, we have publicly and repeatedly expressed concern
about the manner in which the ICC functions.

Most recently, South Africa use the mechanism of consultation
available under article 97 of the Rome Statute to raise the
difficulty it has in reconciling its obligations in terms of the
statute and its obligations as a member of the African Union,
committed to the resolution of conflict through dialogue and
negotiation. Despite these engagements, the principal issue we
raised has not been addressed. It has therefore become apparent that
to continue to be a state party to the Rome Statute would undermine
South Africa’s efforts to promote the peaceful resolution of
conflict, both on the African continent and further afield.

The withdrawal from the ICC should therefore be understood as a
critic of the manner in which the institution has functioned, rather

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than a rejection of the underlying values of that institution. For
the record, South Africa continues to enjoy beneficial and cordial
bilateral relations with its international partners and participates
without hindrance in all multilateral processes.

South Africa will continue to work for peace, stability, and the
equal protection of human rights. This is a commitment that we make
as a government, and we will continue to hold onto. Thank you, madam
Chair.

Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, the words “peace and reconciliation” runs
like a golden thread through the response of the Deputy President,
however, the list of international crimes listed in the Rome Statute
and signed of by South Africa on 17 July 1998 includes genocide,
crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime specifically
stated as the crime of aggression.

Now, in addressing this, we supported that action should be taken on
the perpetrators of this horrific crimes. Does South African
government has a proposal for the establishment of an alternative or
alternatively, do you perhaps see that the increase of the scope of
the mandate of the African court on human and people’s rights, which
as we know can only make recommendations and not prosecute war
criminals? Where to from here?

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, clearly South Africa has its own
domestic laws, and we would like to adhere to those, and we would
even say that should they be transgressed, perpetrators should be
dealt with in accordance with our own laws. As we are a citizen of
Africa and an integral part of the African continent working under
the ages of African Union, AU, clearly, African institutions are
also the type of institutions that we should rely on for the
promotion of human rights and utilise whatever vehicle that the AU
will set up, and will agree to now and into the future.

Now, being part of the AU means that we are part of a big broad
family of African countries that have committed themselves to 2063
commitments, and imbedded in that is the issue of human rights and
the structures that will be set up, that are in place, and will be
set up to promote human rights are those that we will subscribe to,
and if there is an opportunity to strengthen them so that we can
indeed achieve the ideals that we subscribe to as a nation, then we
will support that, because what we have committed ourselves to is
that people who participate in genocide, war crimes, and violates
the basic human rights of others should be brought to book and
should be dealt with.

It is a commitment that we as South Africans will hold onto, and we
would want to see properly followed up through the various
instruments and structures that South Africa, and indeed as part of

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Africa we will have and uphold into the future. Thank you, madam,
Chair

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy President, you have in a sense answered my
question in a broader sense ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am glad to hear that.

Mr G MICHALAKIS: ... I am also quiet glad, but I would like more
direct reply if possible to this question if the answer if yes. The
Rome Statute establishes four crimes: genocide crimes against
humanity, war crimes and the crime of aggression. This are crimes
that can be investigated by the ICC in situations where states are
unable or unwilling to do so themselves. What I would like to know
is: Does the South African government object to any current ongoing
prosecutions against any Head of State currently accused of one of
those four crimes by the Rome statute? If so, which instances and
what are the specific objections? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We obviously have to deal with all these
matters in terms of the laws that we have in our country, and in
terms of the principles that we have embraced. Clearly, anyone who
violates the rights of others and commits horrendous crimes like the
one’s that you have alluded to should be brought to trial. Now, in
saying so, we are saying we have laws in our own country that deal
with that, and indeed if this were to be done here, every South

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African would want people who have violated the rights of others to
be dealt with. Thank you, hon Chair.

Mr E MAKUE: Hon Deputy President, you adequately addressed the part
of the human rights and peace element, but the original question had
two elements to it, and I want to particularly address you on the
element related to international relations. Coming from a select
committee meeting this morning were we dealt with international
relations, we are deeply concerned that the actions that we take as
this parliament should not in anyway compromise our country’s
position internationally. Can you help us to understand the
political implications of whether this particular matter would also
be given adequate attention? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, that’s a very valid question. The
decisions that have been taken by the South African government
should at all times seek to advance our international standing,
because in doing so we advance the interest of all South Africans.

It would be of concern if through a decision that we may well have
taken that we degrade the standing position of South Africa around
the world. Taking this decision which has been communicated also to
the Secretary-General of the UN, we have took the trouble to explain
to all and sundry the reasons why we have taken the steps that we
took, and may I say to you that a great deal of people have been

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able to understand the rational behind the decision we took, and in
fact, have said, yes, we do understand.

There have been issues and concerns in terms of the way the ICC has
operated, and when we explained our decision they said, we do
understand and of course others have said they would have preferred
that we didn’t pull out - They would have preferred that we could
have explained, we could have stayed to give further explanations.

What we are doing in terms of our international relations and
everything that we do at international level, we are reaching out
and giving full and detailed explanations to all and sundry as to
why we took the step we did, and we found that as people understand,
they come to a different conclusion that, yes, we understand, and we
have not tarnished your image as well.

So, we are in the process of explaining our decision. South Africa
remains a member of good standing internationally in various
multilateral organisations. We still have the level of respect and
acceptance that we have always had, and this is seen as one of those
processes that when explained people do understand. Thank you very
much.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, I am burning to ask how the Deputy
President will vote tomorrow in the National Assembly, but let’s
leave it for tomorrow. It’s very important. The government stance

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towards this has an undertone of gerrymandering, because it took a
decision and then came to Parliament. The worst part of it all is as
you spoke about it earlier; whenever a crime is committed someone
must be brought to book. A crime was committed. Someone took Omar
al-Barshir out of the country without arresting him after the court
said arrest, so a crime was committed. The Supreme Court of Appeal
held it that it was unlawful. Now, who was held liable for this
crime or who will be held liable? Are there any plans to let someone
account for this unlawful behaviour? It remains unlawful.

I just want to know, will anyone be brought to book like you earlier
stated? Thank you, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Deputy
President, it is a question related to the withdrawal from the ICC
and the Rome Statute in general, but it is a departure from the line
of questioning from the original question. I am going to leave ...
Yes it is. I am however going to leave it to you as to whether or
not you wish to respond to that question.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, thank you very much for the
advice you are giving. The best I can do is to say, the matter is
being given attention even as we speak. Thank you very much.

Five-point implementation plan

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15.

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Ms Z V Ncitha (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Deputy President:

What progress has been made in achieving the aims of the
Five-Point Implementation Plan
Human

Resource

Development

which
Council

was

adopted

(Council)

by
to

the
(a)

identify and (b) remove bottlenecks in skills for each area
of work identified by the Council?

CO555E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson of the NCOP, the Human Resource
Development Council, HRDC, is one of the most remarkable instances
of social partnerships and collaboration in the democratic era in
our country. It brings together a diversity of expert knowledge and
industry insight that assists us in having a co-ordinated and
integrated response, to a critical national challenge which is
skills development.

The HRDC looks at the country’s human development system. It looks
at it as a whole and seeks to ensure that it meets the needs of our
economy. Through its deliberations, it has helped to influence the
allocation of resources and the effort to where they are most
needed. Since its formation, the HRDC has made important progress in
identifying some of the key obstacles to the development of skills
and the capabilities that our economy needs.

Through the work of its nine technical teams, this council has
developed recommendations to address a number of obstacles. These

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recommendations are being implemented through the relevant
departments of government and other entities.

Madam Chair, due to time constraints, I will not be able to deal
with all the recommendations, say for just a few. We do have the
annual report of the HRDC which I am sure members have in their
position and if they don’t, I am quite sure that we would be willing
to make sure that members do get copies of this annual report.

The HRDC task team on foundational learning has focused on the
delivery of quality basic education. Central to the success of our
school, is the capacity of our teachers. The Department of Basic
Education and the Department Higher Education and Training have
therefore developed an integrated strategic planning framework for
teachers’, education and development.

Understanding the vital importance of Maths and Science and
recognising our deficiencies in this area, the HRDC setup a standing
committee on Maths and Science which started its work in March 2016.
In recognising the disastrous effect of the apartheid education
system on the majority of our people, the council has played close
attention to worker education as well. The HRDC has adopted a
worker-education framework that is currently being developed.

Building on the work of the task team in strengthening Technical and
Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges, the Department of

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Higher Education and Training is implementing a TVET college’s
turnaround strategy, and amongst other things, the council promotes
partnerships between these TVET colleges and the private sector. And
it has also partnered with the South African Institute of Chartered
Accountants to improve the financial management of these TVET
colleges.

We have also developed a wonderful programme which we have dubbed
the adoption programme, where we partner TVET colleges with a number
of companies. To date hereof, a number of these TVET colleges have
been partnered with really outstanding and leading international
companies such as General Electric, possible, one of the top five
companies in the world. They have adopted some of our TVET colleges,
banks, such as Standard Bank, Continental Tyres, Sasol and a number
of other companies have partnered with our TVET colleges and adopted
them. Some of their key executives in those companies go and deliver
lectures at our TVET colleges. What is also important is that they
then bring in young people into their learnership processes in these
companies making young people ready for work as soon as they are
finished. We have found this programme to work extremely well.

There is also a concerted effort to integrate the teaching of
entrepreneurship in all stages of the education process. In this, we
are working on together with various players in the private sector.
As part of the centres of entrepreneurship programme, there are

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currently three centres in Ekurhuleni, in False Bay and in the Gert
Sibande TVET Colleges.

Another major area of attention is the development of a new cohort
of academics and scientists with the skills, the experience and
resources to significantly expand research and teaching output of
our institutions of higher learning. And to ensure that South Africa
grows a diverse representative and quality pool of academics and
industry, 125 learning posts have been allocated to universities for
the 2015-16 financial year, as part of the new generation academic
programme.

To ensure that our country skills development programmes are better
aligned to the needs of the economy, the Department of Higher
Education and Training is in the process of establishing a skills
planning unit. All this is happening through the work that is being
done by this council.

This council quietly beavers away and comes up with a number of very
good proposals that are then given to various government departments
and indeed, the private sector to work on and to implement. This
council does a great deal of work and it is the type of council that
should be supported all round. We hope that members will become more
and more aware and are fair with the work that this HRDC council is
doing. Thank you very much.

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Ms Z V NCITHA: Chairperson, let me thank the Deputy President for
the elaborate response to the question to the extent that you have
touched on my follow-up question because it was going to be around
the issue of Work Stream 2: where you deal with the young people
getting to be entrepreneurs but in your response. However, in your
response you ended up responding to that. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, I am glad that I, in anticipation
of the follow-up question responded to the follow-up question with a
great deal of foresight and fortitude I was able to respond. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]

Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, hon Deputy President, these type of
councils are critical in terms of the long-term economic growth that
this country so desperately needs and that our young unemployed nine
million people so desperately needs.

The critical focus of the artisan and the technician development
system was to increase the capacity, the quality and the relevance
of the development of the artisans that you spoke about.

Can I ask you how far are we in terms of this, has this really been
accomplished and if not where are we in terms of the stages of
developing this capacity and what do we still need to do to really
chain out these artisans that are gona make a difference to the
country and to themselves? Thank you.

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am glad to say that we are making progress.
Obviously, the biggest challenge we have is our history, where we
come from. Where we come from is a horrible place where people were
not even given the opportunity to acquire those skills. So there
isn’t a deep base on which we start. We are starting from a very low
and shallow base. But even as that is so, we are making traction, we
are making progress.

I am always filled with joy when the HRDC holds its meetings and we
have tended to have our meetings in various centres around the
country, centres of real work, where we go either to a factory, a
place where manufacturing happens or we go to a place where a skill
is taught; sometimes we go to TVET Colleges themselves.

I am always filled with a great deal of joy when I see young people
boys and girls or young women and young men who get into some of
these artisan learning professions and go into them with a great
deal of enthusiasm. The picture that I always remember is how a 19year-old girl her name, is Palesa, she told me that “my great
ambition Deputy President is to become a diesel mechanic” and I saw
her at work, training to be a mechanic. She has finished now and she
is a diesel mechanic. Working under yellow equipment taking out huge
engines. [Applause.]

When I saw that I was filled with a great deal of joy and wherever I
have gone, I have often seen young people taking up these skills in

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their dirty overalls, in their dirty clothes. They go under huge
machines they make things. In one place we saw them making machines,
manufacturing machines whether they wear red overalls, blue overalls
or green overalls, those are the real people who do work and less
talk. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, the direct answer to the question is yes, we are making
progress. Young people of this country are hungry for knowledge,
they are hungry for experience and it is to this end that we have
asked the private sector to open up its doors. Open up your doors so
that young people can come and learn the world of work so that they
come into your factors, into your establishments of making things.
Learn to become artisans, be experienced in what they do and also
become entrepreneurs.

If were to do that, the millions of young people in our country
would be able to find space, capacity, knowledge and full
empowerment so that they can go out into the world of work and make
this country work and make this country great. That is what young
people in this country want to do. Thank you very much.

Ms D B NGWENYA: Chairperson, Deputy President, the five-point
turnaround plan emphasises the need for expanding access to
institutions of higher learning to produce intermediate skills
especially the artisans and professionals and academics and stronger

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partnerships between industry and higher education and training
institutions in research and development.

With the state flatly refusing to provide free quality education,
how do you plan to expand access to these institutions of higher
learning. Do you really think that the circularisation of campuses
and the arrests of student activists is the answer to the current
Fees Must Fall protest? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, the South African government has
made a commitment to the young people of this country that what it
does want to do is to support them on their journey to acquire
skills, to acquire knowledge and to acquire education and to be able
to contribute to the growth of our economy so that they themselves
can lead a better life. To this end, the South African government
has committed billions and billions of rands to make education
accessible. The doors of learning have been opened.

The big commitment that it has made is that, it is committed to
ensuring that the children from poor families should have great
access to education. They must be able to get into institutions of
learning fully supported by the state. Fully supported to go and
learn. Because we have got budgetary constraints, we have also said
that the children of parents who can afford to pay, the children of
parents who are well off should have their families continuing to
pay for them.

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PAGE: 30 of 74

However, the children of those families that cannot afford to pay
should be assisted and that is happening as we speak. The government
in response to the very legitimate calls that have been made by
young people that the government should make more funding available
has responded and is pumping more money into education. And the
partnerships that we are forming with the private sector are also
going to yield even greater results in this regard.

The South African government wants to make it absolutely clear that
we are on the side of our young people as they want to learn, as
they want to acquire skills and knowledge in institutions of higher
learning and we are committed to assisting children from poor
families. That in itself takes us forward in terms of broadening
access.

Many more young people in our country are now in institutions of
higher learning and it is this government that opened those doors
and we will continue to open those doors because we are committed to
the learning, the acquisition of skills of our young people. Thank
you.

Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Mandizibulele kuwe Mama uThandi Modise,
nakuwe Sekela Mongameli welizwe loMzantsi Afrika.

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Owam umbuzo uquphile ufuna nje impendulo engqalileyo. Ndicela
ungagwegwelezi uye ngqo apho lifele khona ithole. Umbuzo wam uthi:
(Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Let me thank you Mama Thandi Modise, and
hon Deputy President of South Africa.

My question is simple and it needs a simple answer.

You must not

bit about the bush just go straight to the point. My question is:]

... previously you had referred to your turnaround strategy which we
all appreciate as South African citizens. Your turnaround strategy
has impacted on the Technical and Vocational Education of Colleges
affectionately known as TVET Colleges, which were adopted by some
colleges through co-operatives. That is a good story to tell.

In lieu of this - protected please Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected hon member.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA how many permanent jobs, not temporary jobs
have been created with these co-operations from the TVET graduates?
And I want specifications on these. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, This question requires some
statistics, it requires real numbers which I was not able to bring

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with. However, I am quite happy to get those numbers and make them
to the hon member, so that I should not do what she said I could do
Ukujikeleza kanje. [Going round about a point]

More directly I will say, we can make those figures available
because in our co-operation with various companies and institutions
we finding that those young people who are brought into learnerships
such as artisan training, internships quite often do get jobs either
in those companies or are better prepared to get jobs in other
companies.

What I was most impressed was when I went to a TVET College in
Ekurhuleni and the principal of the TVET College told me that as
soon as these young people leave their colleges they already have
jobs. She said, “There is no young person we release into the world
of work without a job. We ensure that we partner them with various
companies as they are still learning. Companies are exposed to these
young people and in fact companies have found the TVET Colleges,
particular the in Ekurhuleni which is in the manufacturing basin of
our country, that it is a very recruiting spot. They go and ask for
the CV’s of these young people and that is where they go for
recruitment”.

These TVET Colleges play a critical role. Not only as forums where
young people are trained, but also as placement forums where young
people can be placed in jobs, either in the companies that had been

9 NOVEMBER 2016

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assisting the college itself or in other associated companies. I
repeat what she said “Deputy President all our graduates do get jobs
when they leave this place” And that is great achievement. Thank
you. [Applause.]

Government at war with itself

16.

Mr L B Gaehler (Eastern Cape: UDM) asked the Deputy President:

(1)

Whether the current situation (details furnished) has
(a)

divided

the

local

business

community

and

(b)

negatively affected its confidence in the Government;
if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,
what

action

is

the

Government

(i)

taking

or

(ii)

intending to take to (aa) consolidate the work already
done in building collaboration between the Government,
labour and business and (bb) ensure more investment to
the local economy;

(2)

whether

the

resignation

of

(a)

reported

the

Chief

divisions

and

Executive Officer

of

(b)
the

Black Business Council will have a negative impact
on

the

business

community;

if

not,

what

is

the

position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant
details;

9 NOVEMBER 2016
(3)

PAGE: 34 of 74

whether the situation has created tensions within the
global business community regarding investment in the
South African economy; if not, what is the position in
this

regard;

if

so,

what

action

is

the

Government

taking to avert the huge scale dis-investment in the
local economy?

CO553E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon members, at the centre
of the partnership between government, business and labour is a
shared understanding of what I would call, the overriding task of
the moment, which is the creation of jobs, particularly jobs for
young people. There is an appreciation amongst all social partners
with regard to the urgency of the challenge and critical need,
particularly at this time, for collaboration as well as engagement.

Through the initiative led by the Minister of Finance, Mr Pravin
Gordhan, and the Business Unity SA President, Mr Jabu Mabuza,
government, business and labour are taking practical steps to
increase investment, support small enterprise development, address
youth unemployment and maintain South Africa’s investment status in
the world.

While some are doing all they can to talk our country down, some of
whom are within this country, the country’s leading CEOs, labour
leaders and government leaders are working closely on measures that

9 NOVEMBER 2016

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will strengthen the economy and promote investor confidence in our
country.

This is a significant, if not unprecedented development in the
history of our country. And this underscores the critical challenges
we face as a nation and the determination of everyone who wants to
make a meaningful contribution.

As part of its efforts to address youth unemployment, the initiative
of empowering young people is about developing a programme that aims
to place one million young people in paid internships in the private
sector, over the next three years. I still want to see this one million people within two years. We are still talking, we are
still negotiating; we might be able to get there. By giving young
people work experience, this programme will significantly increase
their ability to find employment.

There is also agreement on the establishment of a fund that will
make equity investments in small enterprises that have growth
potential.

The private sector has already committed to a whooping and an
impressive R1,5 billion fund. Government appreciates the support it
continues to receive from business as well as from labour, in its
engagements during the national and international investment
processes. It has also received important support from business in

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establishing what we call Invest SA, which is a one-stop shop to
streamline and accelerate the investment process in our country.
Invest SA has an investment pipeline of about R90 billion for the
2015-16 financial year and R38 billion up to the second quarter of
this financial year.

There are quite a number of announcements that are being made and
will continue to be made with regard to this pipeline. It is quite
an impressive pipeline that includes iconic companies in our country
such as Toyota, Nestle, Sumitomo Rubber Industries, Goodyear, Ford,
Sipla, and so forth.

Invest SA also provides support to the Interministerial Committee on
Investment that is chaired by the President.

Maximising the benefits of these developments for the economy
depends on the decisive action to restore confidence in our economy
and we are seeing this happening on an ongoing basis. This is also
being bolstered by the decisions that are being taken by the
executive, in relation to some of the challenges that we face as a
country at an economic level.

Work is underway. Work is being done to make sure that the economic
and investment prospects of our country are heightened to a much
higher level, all the time. Thank you very much.

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Mr L B GAEHLER: Madam Chair, Deputy President, the business
community has contending views, but those views are about profit
maximisation within the context of the current mode of accumulation.
They will therefore seek to influence and determine public policy
directions in favour of their divergent, yet primary interest. Now,
when some, through their formal association, position themselves in
favour of one of the state institutions against another, it may
threaten stability within state institutions and influence
allegiance.

What is the government doing to make sure that the dynamics within
the business community do not get transported into state
institutions? That is the question. What is the government doing to
make sure that the dynamics within the business community do not get
transported into the state institutions?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, the question is: What are we
doing to ensure that the dynamics within the business community that
tend to lead to differences and so forth do not get into the state
institutions? That is a very good question and it is on the heels of
what was announced recently in relation to state-owned enterprises.
Cabinet announced that, in reforming our state-owned enterprises, we
have adopted a good governance model through which our boards will
operate in a particular way, subscribing to certain values and
principles. That alone, is going to make sure that whatever dynamics
that might be outside of state entities, be they state-owned

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enterprises and indeed even government departments, should not
unduly affect what is happening in those institutions, as those
institutions themselves need to adhere to good governance
principles.

In crafting these, we received the assistance of a plethora of
people, some experts and some well-versed, in the process of good
corporate governance and the process of upholding good values of how
to run these institutions. We are certain that, as all state
institutions adhere to these, they will have the good shock
absorbers as it were, not to be susceptible to undue influences from
outside.

Now, this is part of how we are going to be reforming, how we are
reforming our state-owned enterprises and how we want our state
institutions to function. We want our institutions to function in
accordance with good corporate governance processes, procedures and
rules. Those rules, we believe, will be the very best that one can
get in terms of good corporate governance, adhering to good
principles that will be executed by people with integrity, people
who are honest, people who are committed to work for the people of
this country.

That is how we want to chart a path forward for our state-owned
enterprises and they should not be influenced and be a blow in the
wind like a candle. They should be solid; they should be committed

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to high-lying principles, as accentuated in this corporate
governance model that we are setting out. Thank you.

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, as clearly
outlined by the Minister of Finance in the recent Medium-term Budget
Policy Statement, the government needs to implement serious reforms,
as outline in the National Development Plan and of course, even more
in the Nine-point Plan. You will recall all of those. My question is
an easy one. As the leader of government business, what role will
you then play in removing these structural obstacles to economic
growth and how do you plan to contribute to what is creating
national consensus in building confidence in economic investment and
driving this issue of job creation? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, my role as Deputy President
is to assist the President in the execution of his tasks and also to
execute the tasks that the President asks me to execute. The role of
leader of government business is not necessarily looking after the
business operations of all these institutions or the economy as such
because we have line Ministers who do that. The title is really a
misnomer because the title should be the leader of government
affairs in relation to particularly, Parliament. That is what it is.

It is not necessarily government business. Who looks after
government business? It is the various Ministries - Minister of

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Public Enterprises, Minister of Finance, the various line Ministers
who have state-owned enterprises that operate with them.

However, what I have also been asked to do is to head up the
interministerial committee that deals with issues that relate to
state-owned enterprises. In that, the fortunate thing is that we act
as a collegiate. We are colleagues and act together. The
interministerial function bears testimony to this because it is a
combination of Ministers who deal with the economy, Ministers who
deal with state-owned enterprises. Together, we are able to sit and
craft various strategies and indeed policy directions, policies
which are finally finalised by the line Ministries to move the
economy forward.

So, in that, I act with a number of other colleagues. We are very
serious about moving the economy of our country forward. So, my role
in all this should be seen as part of the totality of the whole. If
you look at the “some of the parts”, I become part of that whole,
“some of the parts”. Thank you.

Mr M M CHABANGU: Madam Chairperson, thank you Deputy President for
recognising the presence of the EFF in Parliament. You have, on a
number of occasions, expressed your support for President Zuma,
despite numerous opportunities for you to dissociate yourself from
his destructive presidency. Do you also support his handing over of
the business of running the country to the Gupta family? Would you

9 NOVEMBER 2016

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support the establishment of a judicial commission of enquiry into
the state capture led by a judge, recommended by the Chief Justice?
Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Deputy
President, this is a completely new question. I think the hon member
is advised to put that question directly in the next line of
questions to the Deputy President on paper. [Interjections.] I have
ruled on that matter, Mr Essack.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, the stateowned enterprises, I think we will all agree, are all playing very
important roles in this country, to ensure that our economy grow,
etcetera. You also indicated and alluded to a number of steps that
the government plans to take in order to get them sorted out and get
them into a position where they are not going to be like the candles
you referred to, but stand on a sure footing and make a good
contribution. My question is: How many state-owned enterprises has
the government been able to get to that point, and if they are not
there yet, what is the sort of timeframes you are looking at? Thank
you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, the hon member might well
know that we have some 720 state-owned enterprises. Clearly, not all
of them play a critical role in the structure of our economy, but
quite a number of them do. Many of these state-owned enterprises are

9 NOVEMBER 2016

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operating well. Some have challenges and some are not operating well
at all. What we tend to do when we look at these state-owned
enterprises is to put them on a piece of paper, almost like a graph
– the green, the yellow and the red.

As we analyse them, we look at their performance and sometimes we
put arrows and say, this one is moving towards the green, this one
is moving towards the red and this one is moving towards the yellow.
We then come up with strategies of how we can move them away from
the red.

Being in the red means that their balance sheet is maybe severely
constrained and challenged. Maybe they have too much debt, they have
run out of leeway of either guarantees and they are making losses.

Sometimes when they are in the yellow, they are just a little bit in
the water and they show signs of getting out. When they are in the
green, like some of our state-owned enterprises that are doing well,
we are overjoyed and full of smiles.

Those that are facing challenges are being given close attention and
some of these reformed processes that we have adopted are meant to
address their own situation and their condition. We are confident
that the measures that the Cabinet decided on are going to assist in
ensuring them up. They are also going to assist in making sure that

9 NOVEMBER 2016

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they move more and more out of need for further capital and further
guarantees, as we move on.

The close attention that we are giving to these state-owned
enterprises in itself is a great achievement because they are now on
our radar screens. We are tracking them on an ongoing basis and want
to make sure that they do make the contribution that they should
make to the country. We look at which ones are well positioned to
play a developmental role and which ones are well positioned to
continue operating in a way that will, in the end, be able to turn
out profit and dividend to the nation.

So, in answering your question, I would say that there are quite a
few of those that we believe will come right soon and there are
quite a number that are already on the green side. With regard to
those on the red side, we are heading towards the yellow and we want
to head them towards the green. Thank you very much.

Establishment of Higher Level Panel

17.

Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Deputy President:

What are the reasons for the establishment of the High
Level Panel that duplicates the objectives of the National
Council of Provinces’ legislative mandate?

CO560E

9 NOVEMBER 2016

PAGE: 44 of 74

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, as the hon member would be
aware that the establishment of this High Level Panel of eminent
South Africans was an initiative of Parliament, not the executive. I
will nevertheless share whatever information I have on this matter
and may I immediately add that much of what I know is in the public
domain. However, I am able to say that in June last year, after a
process of multiparty consultation, both Houses of Parliament
adopted the strategic plan of Parliament which highlighted the
importance of reviewing the impact of these Houses legislation. As a
result in December 2015, the Speakers’ Forum established an
independent High Level Panel of 17 eminent South Africans chaired by
former President Kgalema Motlanthe to assess the implementation of
legislation passed since 1994.

The panel was mandated to investigate the impact of legislation in
relation to the triple challenge of poverty, unemployment and
inequality, the creation and equitable distribution of wealth in our
country, land reform restitution and redistribution and security of
tenure, nation-building and social cohesion. This assessment will
entail the identification of existing legislation passed by
Parliament that enable the transformational goals of the
developmental state as well as laws that impede these goals.

The initiative should be widely welcomed because it offers an
opportunity to reflect for all of us on the extent to which we have
collectively, as a body of people who were chosen by the masses of

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our people to represent them, been able to pursue a transformational
agenda over the last two decades. It will also enable us to identify
achievements and shortcomings. It will inform the approach we take
to our legislative programme going forward and ultimately contribute
to making Parliament a more effective agent of the people of this
country. It is expected that the panel which is led, as I said, by
former President Kgalema Motlanthe will make recommendations and
submit its final report to the Speakers’ Forum in August of 2017,
which is next year.

Further information about the panel can be obtained, I am sure, from
Parliament and this is readily available information which is up our
early but I think this is an initiative we should all welcome and
look forward to its results. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, thank you Deputy President, none
of the existing legislation has any implementation procedures or
socioeconomic standards. Now, in essence, this means that cost
analysis and impact assessments cannot be effectively conducted. Our
concern is a criteria or standard of evaluation therefore employed
by High Level Panel. What objective standards of evaluation are
being used to evaluate the impact of legislation from our
promulgated since 1994 as you said and how did the panel come to the
conclusion that these are the objective standards? Thank you, Madam.

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, the huge disadvantage that I
suffer from is that I am not a member of this panel and I have not
ever been able to sit in any of their deliberations. Now, they are
beavering away doing their work and I have not been privy to any of
the things that they are doing. The assessments that they are going
to make on our legislation is something that one will only become
aware of once they come out with their report. However, assessing
the impact of legislation clearly is something that I believe can be
done by various institutions as well. The good is that we brought
together a collection of 17 eminent South Africans, some of whom are
academics who I believe will be able to do a really good job in
assessing the impact. I hope that is the understanding that I had of
the question. Thank you very much.

Ms M P KONI: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President you hinted earlier, I
think you were answering Question 16, that you assist the President
which we all know. However, I am going to plead with you to also
assist him with numbers – it is a serious concern with reading
numbers. It is a very serious concern. If the report of the High
Level Panel indicates that actually the Constitution which
safeguards white land theft is a measure hindrance towards
transformation, will the ANC be open to amending the Constitution to
allow for expropriation of land without compensation? If not, then
what is the point of the commission if you will not implement their
recommendations? Thank you. Do you want me to repeat?

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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Deputy
President, I think ... hon Koni this is a question which has nothing
to do with legislative review and the competence of the Deputy
President. Deputy President, it is up to you to respond to this but
it is a completely different question from what should be followed
on.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, the best answer I can give
to this question is that hon member is asking me to literally, both
literally and figuratively, put the cart before the horse. Basically
saying if this is what we are going to do, I do not know what this
panel is going to do. I think the best thing that the hon member and
myself can do is to wait for the report of this panel. It is after
this panel has issued their report and the hon member and myself
have studied it very carefully page by page that we will be able to
make an assessment of what they are saying.

If the hon member then still persists in finding answers to this
question, I am sure she will be able to throw deep within her
conscious and finds answers. If not, I am quite happy to meet the
hon member so that we can discuss this matter. Thank you, Madam
Chair. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you
Deputy President. The hon Ramulifho! Order! Order, members! Please
proceed, hon member.

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Mr K RAMULIFHO: Madam Chairperson, through you to the Deputy
President, should the recommendations by the High Level Panel of ...
[Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Qha,
awajeziswa amanxusa akhethekile kulo Muzi. Qhubeka baba. [No,
special delegates are not punishable in this House. Proceed, sir.]

Mr K RAMULIFHO: I am Khume Ramulifho from Gauteng. Should the
recommendations by the High Level Panel come back and they have
harsh implications for the ANC-run government, meaning that
essentially the ANC has failed South Africa in terms of implementing
legislation that should be beneficial to the people. Is your
government prepared to accept and implement the recommendations of
this panel? I want to ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order! Order,
members! I want to protect this member on the floor. Order! Please
proceed.

Mr K RAMULIFHO: I want to understand whether the Deputy President
will accept recommendations regardless of the implications to ensure
that this panel is not just doing this for formality or compliance,
but the impact which they come up as government will pursue and
implement.

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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Ramulifho,
in this House we have a rule that deals with a speculation, and the
hon Deputy President you are at liberty to want to speculate. That
is what the hon member is asking you to do.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, one of the things that I am
not greatly gifted on is to be a speculator. I intend to want to
deal with reality as I confront reality. The hon member is saying
... please this panel has been set up. This commission has been set
up. We want to upfront to commit that you are going to accept
whatever recommendation that they come up with, sign up to that.
Life never works like that. You only deal with reality. Once a
recommendation has been made when you have analysed it, weight it
up, it is then that whoever you are you will say yes, I do accept
this recommendation.

Sometimes a recommendation may require further elucidation; it may
require further introspection and further research. Therefore, how
do you then say that accept any recommendation whatever it is before
it is even made. I am not a gambler. I am not a speculator. I hope
that the hon member will accept how I approach life. Thank you very
much. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Deputy
President, thank you very much. The hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana! You are
covered, that was my last hand on Question 17. We move on to

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Question 18. It was posed by the hon Mohai. I have been instructed
that the hon Mohapi will deal with the question. Deputy President!

Plans for single public service

18.

Mr S J Mohai (Free State: ANC) asked the Deputy President:

(1)

Whether

it is viable

to have the Local Government

Sector Education and Training Authority (LGSETA) and
the

Public

Service

Sector

Education

and

Training

Authority (PSETA) as separate entities, in light of
the

plans

for

a

if

not,

furnished);

single
what

public
is

the

service

(details

position

in

this

PSETA

will

regard; if so, what are the relevant details;

(2)

whether
amplify

the
the

role
role

of
of

the
the

LGSETA

and

Public

Administration

Leadership and Management Academy (Palama) if the two
SETAs are integrated into Palama; if not, why not; if
so, what are the relevant details?

CO556E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon members, according to
the National Development Plan, NDP, the achievement of a capable
developmental state is central to the achievement of our vision for
2030. Sector Education and Training Authorities, Setas, play a
critical role in developing the skills of the public service and the

9 NOVEMBER 2016

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capabilities of the state. Indeed Setas play an important role in
identifying the skill needs of every economic sector in our country.
They have been particularly successful at identifying scarce and
critical skill needs in the labour market as well as facilitating
practical workplace experience for learners from universities and
Technical and Vocational Education and training, TVET, colleges.

Between 2012 and 2015, nearly 70 000 artisans qualified through
workplace training opportunities facilitated by Setas. In the same
period, Setas found work based learning opportunities for well over
186 000 learners. They provided bursaries for nearly 60 000 learners
across all economic sectors in almost all institutions in our
country. They have provided training to over 13 000 adult workers
through adult education and training programmes.

Because Setas have such a significant impact on the development of
our country’s human capital, it is important that sufficient
attention be given to their design, mandate, operation but more
importantly, that they should be assisted to succeed in the task
that they have at hand.

The Minister of Higher Education and Training is responsible for
making a determination as to the viability, the number and economic
classification of these Setas. The Seta landscape is currently being
reviewed by the Department of Higher Education and Training. This
review will take into account the potential impact of a single

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public service. In doing so, consideration will need to be given not
only to the sheer size of the public service in all spheres of
government, but also to the variety of functions, responsibility,
skills and requirements. It must be remembered that Setas are
expected to keep a close link to those enterprises that contribute
to their levy income and whose training needs they are supposed and
meant to serve. Because no Seta stands on its own, it stands as an
entity that relates to a particular sector of our economy.

If this constituency base is too large for diversity then there is a
great possibility that it would neglect some while seeking to serve
others. Against this backdrop, the Regulating Department has
indicated that it does not immediately intend to merge these two
Setas. However, there is every intention to increase co-operation
between them.

With respect to the National School of Government, formally known as
Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, it
should be remembered that it is a provider of training for the
public service and for public servants. The role of the local
government Seta and the public service Seta is to quality assure and
accredit providers of training. The public service Seta has
accredited and is responsible for the monitoring of the National
School of Government as a provider of training.

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In our efforts to promote quality learning and in terms of good
practice, the role of a provider of training should be kept quite
separate from that of an accrediting and monitoring body. We believe
that this is a healthy way of separation so that there are no
conflicts.

As government undertakes its review of the Seta landscape, we need
to ensure that these institutions continue to fulfil the essential
role they play in promoting skills development, economic growth, job
creation and moving our country forward in every respect,
particularly around the acquisition of skills. Thank you Madam
Chair.

Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, let me acknowledge
with gratitude the comprehensive way of responding to this question.
However, I just need an emphasis in terms of the co-operation that
you spoke about around local government Seta and public service
Seta, whether this co-operation is together with Palama? Do you
envisage Deputy President that the philosophy, the content and the
method of training will best improve our service delivery and fully
attain our aspiration of developmental state? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I can attest to the fact that
the objectives that we should achieve, precisely those ideals that
the hon Mohapi is talking about, that we should be able to have
well-trained public servant who will want to serve the people of our

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country which in the end will improve service delivery. Public
servant should know that they joined the public service precisely to
try and achieve this ideal that we have. Deliver good services to
our people and doing it adhering to the principles of putting our
people first – Batho Pele, before anyone else so that they should be
deeply imbued with the spirit of service, spirit of service our
people like some of the leading forebears that our country has had –
the Nelson Mandelas of this world, the Oliver Tambos of this world,
the Lillian Ngoyis of this world, the Albertina Sisulus of this
world. This is precisely what we want our civil servants to be like
to be able to serve our people and we want them to commit to that
and this training that they will be getting is aimed at precisely
achieving those goals. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Enkosi mama uSihlalo, kuwe Sekela
Mphathiswa ...

USEKELA MONGAMELI: Sekela Mongameli.

Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Mongameli wam, Mongameli wam nowabantu
baseMzantsi Afrika. [Kwahlekwa.]

USEKELA MONGAMELI: Hayi, ndiyayithanda ke le ndlela oyibeka ngayo.

Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Ndicela ukuba uze ungagwegwelezi, uvele
ungqale uye apho kufele khona ithole njengakuqala.

9 NOVEMBER 2016

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USEKELA MONGAMELI: Sobe ndigwegweleze, ndiyathembisa. (Translation
of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, to you,
Deputy Minister ...

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy President.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: My President and the President of the
people of South Africa. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I like the way you put it.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: I appeal to you not to beat about the bush
and go straight to the point, like the first time.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I promise, I will not beat about the bush.]

I want to know if we have any plans to merge any Setas in the near
future? If so, which entities would you match and what could be the
reasons to do that? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As I said earlier Madam Chairperson, I did say
that a review process is underway. The Minister of Higher Education
and Training has embarked on a review process and this a very good
process. It aims to assess the Setas to see whether they have

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sufficient efficacy as they operation. So, therefore, one is not
able to say right now whether any of the Setas aimed to be merged.
The Minister is doing a very thorough process and where it will end
up is something that will be borne out of the result of the review
process that the Minister has embarked upon. Thank Madam
Chairperson.

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, His Excellency, the Deputy President, my
follow-up question is with regard to the work that is being done by
the Department of Higher Education and Training and coming up with a
new framework for restructuring of the Setas. I want to believe that
that reconfiguration when it is completed, is going to assist us
with respect to reducing the duplications in the functions of the
Setas and also assist us in the deployment of resources to the
various Setas as we have observed in the committee that there are
some of the Setas that are really struggling with the finances,
particularly the public service Seta. The reconfiguration could
probably also address the problem.

Alongside that is the issue of skills development. We know that our
country need a skilled and capable workforce and the Setas are
playing a critical role insofar as skills development is concerned.
Are there mechanisms in place to ensure that whilst you address the
issue of reconfiguration but you also do not compromise their
functions of skills development in keeping with the objectives of
the National Development Plan?

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, one of the key objectives
why the Setas were set up was to enhance the development of our
people’s skills. In fact, I could say that that was the central
objective. In whatever process we embark on, be it looking at the
efficacy or the continued existence of Setas standing either
separately or others to be merged, the one thing that we will not
allow to be compromised, to be dumped along the way and to be
sacrificed, is their ability to continue with their central task of
improving the skills of our people. Now, that is something that we
are going to keep focus on remembering that they were set up for
skills development. We will therefore want to continue capacitating
them, we will continue to want them to remain focused on skills
development.

I can assure a member that we will not drop the ball as it were when
it comes to the issue of skills development. Whatever configuration
we finally come up with, be it for either the public service or
indeed some other Setas that may well be struggling as the member
alluded to the public service one which is the one that is
struggling, but the report that I gave now shows that they are
playing a key role in helping in the development of skills and that
is something that we are not going to drop largely because it is
identified in the National Development Plan as a key objective that
we should follow in a dogged way to ensure that our country does
have skilled who will make a meaningful contribution to the economy
of our country. Thank you Madam Chairperson.

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Ms D NGWENYA: Ndiyabulela kwakhona Sihlalo. [Thank you again,
Chairperson.]

In your own words Deputy President you just said that the central
objective of the Setas is to enhance the skills of the public
servants, but it is unfortunate because we do not see it that way.
We feel that the Setas have been used as a tool to dispense
patronage and corruption.

Does your government have intentions of ensuring that in the future
you will build sufficient skills and capacity to do away with the
use of consultants for critical government functions? Enkosi. [Thank
you.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, I can testify that what I
said in my own words was to give a record of the progress that we
have made in relation to the number of people who some of these
Setas have assisted to get skills.

For good form and to enhance the happiness of the hon member and to
ensure that as she leaves this National Council of Provinces this
afternoon she is in a happy mood, I am able to repeat what I said
earlier. In fighting the number of people who have been able to
acquire skills, artisans, the hon member will remember that we live
in a country where people who look like her and myself, were not
given an opportunity to acquire skills particularly in the artisan

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field. Today I have been able to report that some of these Setas
have trained up to 70 000 artisans. [Applause.]

Hon member, if that is not an impressive record, I don’t know what
an impressive record is. But as I did allude to, I can already see
that my mere repetition of this number is placing a very broad smile
on the member’s face. [Laughter.] I thank you, Madam Speaker.
[Applause.]

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - 2016
REVISED FISCAL FRAMEWORK

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, you are most
welcome in the NCOP this afternoon. The Minister of Finance tabled
the 2016 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement, 2016 MTBPS, on 26
October 2016 and engaged with the Standing and Select Committees on
Finance on 27 October 2016.

Public hearings were held and several stakeholders appeared before
the committees, like the Parliamentary Budget Office, the PBO, the
Financial and Fiscal Commission, the FFC, Cosatu, Equal Education,
Rural Health Advocacy Project, RHAP, and Prof Jannie Rossouw from
Wits who made the written submission as he wasn’t present.

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On 4 October 2016, the National Treasury responded to the inputs and
submissions made by finance committees. What is the key message of
the MTBPS? In a constraint and stressed economic environment, the
MTBPS proposed the measured, balanced and careful attempt at fiscal
consolidation. The emphasis is that prudent fiscal management alone
is not a solution. Inclusive growth is needed and that requires
domestic and foreign confidence and removal of structural
constraints to growth.

Government needs to implement reforms outlined in the National
Development Plan and the Nine-Point Plan. Parliament must plan its
role in removing structural blockages to growth and contribute
towards creating national consensus on economic growth.

Parliament has to adequately engage on growth issues. I am coming to
this in our recommendations.

Our preoccupation is not rating agencies but putting the country on
the right footing. The committees once again note the timelines in
the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, Money
Bills Act, to report on the MTBPS. They need more time and capacity
to effectively engage with the MTBPS and intend to effect the
amendments to the Act before 2017 MTBPS is introduced.

Given the extreme challenging economic environment, the committees
commend the National Treasury on shaping the MTBPS and the balanced

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fiscal consolidation path that does not negatively affect service
delivery and ensures – very important – socio protection.

The committees recognise severity of the economic growth and job
creation challenges that confront the country. Since 2011, the
economic growth declined from 3,6% of GDP to a projected 0,5% in
2016. It is projected to increase to 1,3% in 2017 and 2% in 2018.
Even the projected 0,5% growth in 2016 may not be realised. The
prospects for global growth are also dim according the IMF report of
October 2016.

However, it is not as if the country is powerless. So, working
together across the divides in implementing decisions already taken
- including the Nine-Point Plan - effectively and speedily,
conditions can certainly be improved to lift growth and create jobs.

There is a need for unity and action, the need to act together for a
better future and the commitment to building coalition for faster
growth.

What seek and more can be done: If we collectively make the right
choices; support confidence and investment in our economy; create a
predictable and stable policy or political environment; and put the
national interest first. That is up to us!

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The rate of unemployment increased from 25% to 26,5% between the
first and second quarters of 2016, a loss of 112 000 jobs. If
constraints to economic growth are not addressed, unemployment rate
will continue to increase. The committees are really and seriously
concerned about this.

We welcome the appointment of the new SA Airways Board. We are
however concerned that SA Airways’ and other SOE’s exposure to state
guarantees remain one of the largest risks to the fiscal
consolidation path and national fiscus, given that the significant
part of the SOE debt is foreign denominated and more exposed to
external shocks.

The committees note that the net debt-to-GDP ratio is now expected
to stabilise at 46,2% in 2019, from 44,3% in 2015-16. When
provisions and contingent liabilities are added to net debt, the
South African balance sheet deteriorates to more than 50% over the
medium term. This is a serious concern which has to be addressed.
Also noted is the impact of a rising current account deficit on debt
service costs, partly arising from the exchange rate depreciation.

We recognise work done by the National Treasury in averting a credit
ratings downgrade by the international credit rating agencies. We
remain concern about the impact of a possible downgrading on the
fiscal consolidation path, particularly the state’s ability to
service debt.

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We welcome the post-school education in 2017-18 and over the Medium
Term Expenditure Framework period, MTEF period. The committees will
continue to work with the Standing Committee on Appropriations in
both Houses to consider ways of improving the allocations without
prejudicing other key social, economic and developmental programmes.
We commit to the expenditure ceiling but want to see far more value
for money on services delivered. The committees commit to strengthen
their oversight role in this regard. You will see, we are pointing
fingers to ourselves as committees as well.

We understand the need for tax increases in the current
circumstances but our concern is that in the environment of low
growth, increasing unemployment and subdued household consumption,
any tax increased by the National Treasury need to take full account
the possible unintended negative consequences on the consumers and
the economy.

There are 35 recommendations; I am not going to deal with every one
of them. The committee recommends the adoption of a Revised Fiscal
Framework and the proposed Medium Term Fiscal Framework - that is
the outer forecast years. We welcome the chapter on the risk to the
fiscal framework report provided in this year’s MTBPS and recommend
that the National Treasury provides such a report in each MTBPS and
reports to the committees regularly on the risks. We recommend that
government continues with a measured fiscal consolidation approach

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that moderately reduces a budget deficit while supporting of
economic growth.

It is very important, the committees recommended, that the National
Treasury and government as a whole intensify efforts at co-operation
between government, Parliament, the private sector, trade unions and
civil society to improve economic growth and create jobs. The
committees will seek to co-operate with other relevant parliamentary
committees in this regard and explore the possibility of approaching
the Speaker and the NCOP Chairperson to consider setting up an ad
hoc joint committee to deal with economic growth and job creation.

On post-school education, we commend that further allocations be
considered for post-school education without prejudicing other key
social programmes. The committees will work with the Standing and
Select Committees on Appropriations on this matter.

We acknowledge the progress in cost containment but we believe that
more can be done. The committees also recommend that National
Treasury engages the Auditor-General, AG, to explore possibilities
of the AG’s office conducting annual audits over time of compliance
of the national, provincial government departments, municipalities
and public entities, with cost containment measures decided by the
National Treasury, and reporting of these audits, which can be
considered by parliamentary committees. The committees require

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National Treasury to report on these possibilities in the first
quarterly briefings in 2017.

In conclusion, 55 million South Africans want to see and experience
real change in their lives, and continue progress. We have put the
national interest first. It is up to us. Let’s do it! I thank you.
[Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: That concludes
the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the
report be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow
the province the opportunity to make their declarations if they so
wish.

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Western Cape, North West.

Declarations of vote:
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, there is wide consensus that the
2016 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, was compiled in
very severe constrained economic conditions. The lowered tax revenue
growth necessitated lower spending to stay within affordability

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parameters. This approach is necessary to ensure that national debt
does not spiral out of control.

The reality on the ground however, is that this consolidation
exercise has a profound negative impact on the economy and the
community at large. Economic growth has been in a downward spiral
for five consecutive years and the per capita income of all South
Africans has been declining in line with this trend. The national
government has limited manoeuvrability to stimulate much needed
economic growth because of rising current account deficits and
increased borrowing needs. The historic reckless borrowing patterns
have now finally caught up with us and there is therefore no longer
business as usual.

Well-known culprits that are hampering our economy are ineffective
government, state capture, corruption, cadre deployment and
nonprofitable state enterprises. Chairperson, however we do support
... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected. Proceed.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you, Chairperson. However, we do support
the recommendations contained in the report ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!

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Mr O S TERBLANCHE: ... inter alia to establish an ad hoc committee
to conduct oversight of structural reforms necessary to boost the
economic growth, to ensure that the Auditor-General conduct audits
of national, provincial, municipal and public entities compliant
with cost-containment measures and to ensure that the national
Treasury tables a quarterly report on contingent liabilities
including most importantly guarantees.

Based on the reasons outlined above, hon Chairperson, the Western
Cape cannot support the revised fiscal framework and revenue
proposals because the impact of these proposals would not be in the
best interest of South Africans. I thank you, Chairperson.
[Applause.]

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Chairperson, the North West province
supports the fiscal framework. The current government’s vision rests
on the call that was made in 1955 which said that the people shall
share in South Africa’s wealth. They will do so through economic
transformation that intends to build an equitable society in which
there is decent work for all.

Therefore, as an integral part of the second phase of our transition
from apartheid to a national democratic society, we need to
accelerate growth and intensify our programme of economic
transformation. This government intends to transform the structure
of the economy through industrialisation, broad-based black economic

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empowerment and addressing the basic needs of our people including
women and the youth, and strengthening and expanding ...
[Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is also protected.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: ... the role of the state and the role of
state-owned enterprises. Chairperson, I will be doing the greatest
mistake if I do not acknowledge the fact that - I will not repeat
the figures that were said by the chairperson of the committee - the
growing debt is a serious risk and the committee has looked into.
However, we have acknowledged that there are quite a number of
formulas that are used to determine this debt and that should be
critically looked into and addressed.

We are also concerned about the job losses and we are saying we need
to create decent jobs. However, one area that this government is
doing and it is doing very wonderfully, is that in terms of the
infrastructure investment, it is doing enormously very well and that
must be appreciated. It is on these basis that we support this
fiscal framework. [Applause.] Now, Chairperson, I must ...
[Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motlashuping, please take your
seat. Sir, are you rising on a point of order? Hon Essack.

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Mr F ESSACK: Yes, hon Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, I want to hear the hon member.
Hon Dlamini, I want to hear the hon member on the floor.

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, thank you. My point of order is: I
just wanted to check with you, with due respect, if you would maybe
allow a question to the hon member?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Essack, that hon member is making a
declaration. [Interjection.]

Mr F ESSACK: I know very well, I thought maybe you would just allow
me to ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, I am not going to allow it. Please
conclude, Mr Motlashuping.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Thank you, Chair. As the Select Committee on
Finance, we sat and read the recommendations page by page. Hon
Essack, hon Terblanche and hon David Maynier were part of this
committee and they never questioned, instead they contributed
positively to the recommendations of the fiscal framework, yet they
come here and grandstand. [Interjections.] Well, in the committee
they have agreed and accepted the recommendations. Thank you, very
much. [Applause.]

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Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, are you on a point of
order? Hon Essack, the floor is yours.

Mr F ESSACK: Yes, Ma’m, with due respect, again and again the hon
member is misleading the House because in the committee - I just
want to point out if you would allow me hon Chairperson, in the
committee as the DA, we made it very, very clear that we do not
support the fiscus Bill, but we support the recommendations and that
was very clearly attested to by the hon Terblanche. So, I ask with
due respect hon Chairperson that the hon member making the
declaration on behalf of the North West must not mislead the country
because that is his form of grandstanding in the name of ...
[Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Essack, you have made your point.

Mr F ESSACK: Thank you, Ma’m.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The point that you are making is that
you supported the recommendations. The hon member says that in the
committee ... [Interjections.]

Please!

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Musani ukuzenza izinyanya ndiyanicela. [Please do not pretend to be
ancestors.]

Do not second guess me. Hon members are contending. One says this is
grand misleading of the public and this House, the other one says
no, but you are misleading this House here and now because in the
committee you agreed. Now, it is very difficult for me to say which
is which. However in the nature of declarations, members often say
things and this remark of members sometimes agreeing at committee
level and disagreeing in the House is quite normal. For sometimes
what is at play - and hon members we have been members of committees
and we know - what is often at play is that members have a different
take at committee level then there is another take that comes from
the overall thrust; the overall political party’s thrust on issues.

So, when members come here and disagree it does not necessarily mean
that they are fork-tongued. It simply means that they might have had
a caucus; they might have had a line that comes from their parties.
That is what might happen. However, sometimes it might be that
members are arguing because generally they agreed and then disagreed
on one or two points which then bring them into this House. So, I
would like to get some maturity here that says I do not find and
conclude on this matter, but say that in debates, let us agree that
sometimes we agree and disagree.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

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In favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

Against: Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order. Hon members, I would like to
thank all the special delegates who are with us today. It is always
a privilege and an honour that you come and participate with us.
However, I would also want to take this opportunity to formally
welcome the new members of this House - not so new I would be told the hon Chabangu, the hon Magwebu and the hon Ngwenya. You are
welcomed hon members and you are coming at the end of the year when
we are all tired and tempers are frayed, but you are part of us.
Thank you, very much. [Applause.]

Hon members that is the nature of politics. [Interjections.]

Hon members, before I adjourn the House I wish to request members to
remain for the briefing on the Taking Parliament to the People
programme and I conclude the business of the day, you are requested
to remain standing until the procession has left the House. This
House is adjourned.

9 NOVEMBER 2016

PAGE: 73 of 74

The Council adjourned at 16:31.
__________

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Membership of Committees

(a)

Change in the Membership of Select Committees of the National Council of Provinces
(NCOP):

Select Committee on Petitions and Executive Undertakings

Appointed: Hon. J M Mthethwa (ANC- KwaZulu-Natal) – Alternate
Resigned: Hon. L P M Nzimande (ANC- KwaZulu-Natal) – Alternate
Discharged: Hon. D M Stock (ANC - Northern Cape) – Alternate

Select Committee on Security and Justice

Appointed: Hon. J M Mthethwa (ANC – KwaZulu-Natal) – Alternate

9 NOVEMBER 2016

PAGE: 74 of 74

Resigned: Hon. L P M Nzimande (ANC- KwaZulu-Natal) – Alternate
Discharged: Hon. D M Stock (ANC - Northern Cape) – Alternate

Select Committee on Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs

Appointed: Hon. J M Mthethwa (ANC – KwaZulu-Natal) – Alternate
Resigned: Hon. L P M Nzimande (ANC- KwaZulu-Natal) – Alternate
Discharged: Hon. D M Stock (ANC - Northern Cape) – Alternate

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

Please see pages 37-49 of the ATCs.


 


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