Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 02 Nov 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
WEDNESDAY, 02 NOVEMBER 2016
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:02.
The House Chairperson: Committees, Oversight, Co-operative
Government and Intergovernmental Relations took the Chair and
requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or
meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NO NOTICES OF MOTION OR MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
(Announcement)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I have been
informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices
of motion or motions without notice except motions on the Order
Paper.
CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT RESOLUTION ON RE-ESTABLISHMENT
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENT OF BOARD MEMBERS TO
NATIONAL YOUTH DEVELOPMENT AGENCY, NOTWITHSTANDING RULE 247(1)
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, thank you very much for
this opportunity. I move the draft resolution printed in my name on
the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting
of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council
considers the draft resolution on the re-establishment of the Ad
Hoc Joint Committee on the Appointment of Board Members to the
National Youth Development Agency.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
RE-ESTABLISHMENT
OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENT OF BOARD MEMBERS TO
NATIONAL YOUTH DEVELOPMENT AGENCY
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I move the draft resolution printed
in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the Council -
(1) notes –
(a)
the resolution of 23 February 2016 which established an Ad
Hoc Joint Committee on the Appointment of Board Members to
the National Youth Development Agency;
(b)
Joint Rule 138(5)(a), which provides that an ad hoc joint
committee ceases to exist when it has completed the task
for which it was established; and
(c)
that the Committee ceased to exist on 24 May 2016, after it
completed its task for which it was established and
reported to the Assembly;
(2) resolves, subject to the concurrence of the National Assembly,
to re-establish the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on the Appointment
of Board Members to the National Youth Development Agency with
the same composition, membership, mandate and powers as its
predecessor;
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(3) instructs the Committee to incorporate in its work the
proceedings and all the work of the previous committee; and
(4) sets the deadline by which the Committee is to report to 7
December 2016.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Before we proceed to
questions I would like to take this opportunity to welcome Ministers
and Deputy Ministers in this Chamber.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
ECONOMICS
Cluster 4C
MINISTERS:
Cheap/illegal imports
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247. Mr J M Mthethwa (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked
the Minister of
Economic Development:
What plans does the Government have to deal with the increase
of cheap and illegal imports which threaten local industries
and the jobs?
CO427E
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: House Chairperson, hon
members, colleagues, I want to agree with the hon Mthethwa that
illegal imports threaten local industries and jobs. Unscrupulous
importers smuggle products into South Africa using a range of
methods. For example, they falsify the import documentation so that
something that may be declared as one product carrying smaller
tariff. In fact, it is another product; or they misdeclare the value
of the product; or say the goods are destined for a neighbouring
country and comes through the port of Durban and then redirected,
that threatens South African jobs.
In addition to that, some goods are imported legally but they are
very cheap and the combination of cheap imports and illegal imports
is an enormous challenge for the industry. There are things that we
are doing to address this, and I am going to highlight six of ways
in which we deal with this challenge. The first one is to inspect
more containers so that we determine that what is on the paperwork
and what is in the container is in fact align, if they say it is a
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care then it should be a car. When they say it is clothing, it is
indeed clothing.
The second thing that we are now doing to discourage acts of
illegality is that we are monitoring the price on the paperwork. If
it is suspiciously low, then Sars does a thorough investigation. I
want to give example of suits; something like about five or six
years ago in 2011, a suit the average price of suits landed in South
Africa was R134,00 per suit.
Now, you know that you are not going to be able to buy a suit for
R134,00. So, Sars began to crackdown and said just hang on I know
this is in your invoice but is it true? Slowly the importers
realised that we are on to them. Today, in 2015 the average landed a
price of R208,00 still very low but at least a 55% increase in the
declared value. Slowly now we are beginning to get importers to
declare more honestly because they know our systems are in place.
Thirdly, because some prices are subsidised by the countries they
sell basically below the cost of production. We introduced something
called an anti-damping duty. What that is, hon members, it is called
a special tax to ensure that the actual landed price that goes into
the retail chain is higher than the declared price. I want to give
an example of cement, an import from Pakistan took off a couple of
years ago, and we discovered that the price was so low that you
could not make cement at that price. And we slapped on an anti-
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dumping duty and that has now significantly decreased the level of
cement imports from Pakistan, in fact, it halved in 2014 compared to
2015.
The fourth thing that we are doing is that we strengthen the laws.
In 2014 we published the Customs Control Act and the Customs Duty
Act; Sars is getting the systems in place once the Acts come into
effect, which basically will provide for tougher measures, for
example, imprisonment, much higher fines and penalties, holding the
retail chain responsible and liable for illegal imports.
The fifth thing that we are doing is that where goods are coming in
cheaply but there is nothing illegal about it is a challenge for our
competitiveness. And so, we are putting some money into some sectors
like clothing and textiles. We are helping to improve the
competitiveness of that sector through investment in people, skills
development, as well as investment in technology. And over the past
few years, hon members would be pleased to know that in fact we have
reduced the level of job losses in that sector; it was 15 000 to
20000 jobs loss every year, and today it is stable. In fact a year
ago there was a small increase in jobs in the sector.
Finally, a well-focus buy local campaign can be enormously helpful
in stilling pride in locally made goods and reducing the level of
imports. We have now published regulations that require every public
entity, including Parliament, when it buys T-Shirts, caps or
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anything like that to buy it from South African manufacturers.
However, there is more that we can do as citizens to support local
industry. Last year on the Budget Vote on economic development, we
had few sawing machines installed here in Parliament, first time in
the history of Parliament.
We brought with those sawing machines clothing workers, for example,
Nosipho Kayana and Sonia Smith these were garment workers who were
stitching clothing with pride, creating jobs in South Africa and
wanting all South Africans to wear their clothing. Those are six
measures that we are taking to deal with the problem of imports.
Thank you.
Mr J M MTHETHWA: Thank you, hon Minister for the answer that you
have deliberated right now; but my question is – because I did not
hear including this – there are these big containers of second-hand
clothes that come from overseas and they are flooding the market in
throughout South Africa. When we walk our streets in Durban we find
clothes and people are buying those clothes very cheap, a dress is
about R50 or R70 each. And it is destroying the clothing industry in
our country; what plans to you have in order to curb this scourge of
industry that is destroying our country?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you; you must also use
an example of a trouser not only of a dress. [Laughter.]
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The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for that follow-up
supplementary question. The question of imports of second-hand
clothing is a challenge both in South Africa and indeed elsewhere in
the continent. What often happens is that charity-organisations in
Europe or the US collect clothing saying that it is going to be used
to support and help Africans who don‘t have cloths.
That then is bought by commercial operators in many cases. Those
commercial operations bring it into the country, and sometimes they
apply for what is called a rebated duty, a request that we don‘t
even charge a tariff. Once it comes into the country it is sold in
the market like any other commodity. Exactly as the hon member has
witnessed. So, what do we do about this? A few years ago we
introduced a requirement that any import of second-hand clothing has
got to via a permit, must be via a permit. You can‘t simply bring it
into the country; it
If indeed hon member you have seen a rise in the level of secondhand clothing in eThekwini area perhaps even in other urban areas, I
will put together some information from Eye Tech. We have four
inspectors, sir, in Eye Tech. They look at few sensitive products;
second-hand clothing is an example. And I would be very happy to
provide that information to the member and also for it to be
published in Hansard so that other members would have access to that
information. That is the commitment I am making.
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In conclusion, government can do some things and we need to do our
things better, we need to make sure that the borders are properly
policed; that goods that comes in pay their applicable tax and if
permits are required that they are processed. At the end of the day
we also have to mobilise public opinion, exactly as the hon member
has done now by explaining the connection because when a consumer
sees a bargain something – I am going to use a shirt, hon Chair, as
the example, I am not going to go anywhere else on this one.
If they see a cheap shirt being sold for R60,00 they think that is
great. The human story that can, in fact, plunge some of the poorest
workers in the country out of a job is not often realised. That is
where Parliament, or government, we as Cabinet members can play an
important advocacy role. The law can only do so much. We must build
public support for the application of our law. That would be what I
would leave the hon member with. Thank you.
Decline in SA economy
278. Mr J J Londt (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of Economic
Development:
Whether his department has taken any actions to ensure a (a)
stable
economy
and
(b)
continued
economic
development
and
growth in response to the recent declines in South Africa‘s
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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economy; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO544E
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I would like to
thank hon Londt for the question that deals with challenges in the
South African economy and the steps we are taking to deal with those
challenges.
Let me start by contextualising what has happened to the economy in
recent months. Over the last six months we have been buffeted by a
global environment that is not conducive to fast growth. In fact,
hon members would see that growth rates across the African continent
have been adjusted downwards. In fact, there is clear evidence that
a number of African economies are teetering on the brink of
recession.
So, what are we doing about that? I want to highlight three or four
key interventions. The first intervention is investment in
infrastructure. When the state pumps money into infrastructure
development, it is what an economist would call a counter-cyclical
measure. You see your car is slowing down; you give it an injection
of fuel. That is why Minister Gordhan, in the Medium-term Budget
Policy Statement, indicated an increase in the level of public
sector investment in infrastructure like transport,
telecommunications, water, energy and other core drivers of the
economy.
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Secondly, it is investment that is facilitated through industrial
funding to which the state has access. We have a corporation, the
Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, and its decisions are quite
critical because it partners with the private sector to bring
investment into the economy. My colleague, Minister JoematPetterson, will be speaking later, but allow me to say that, through
the efforts of her department on renewable energy, the IDC has
supported a number of projects which have brought liquidity into the
economy. We now expect more of that will be done.
Over the past 12 months, the IDC has approved something like
R14,5 billion of fresh investment. That is just IDC money.
Obviously, its partners also bring some money in. Over the next 12
to 18 months we can begin to expect that those investment approvals
will convert to the building of new factories and the expansion of
factories. Examples of that ... I went to Nelson Mandela Bay not
very long ago to do a sod-turning at a site where a big auto plant
will be built. This plant will be the first new light vehicle
autoplant in 40 years in South Africa. The counter-party is Beijing
Automotive International Group. That investment will start off as a
R4,5 billion investment and it will hopefully grow to about
R11 billion.
The third example I want to give is in competition policy. Part of
how one re-ignites growth is to combat cartels, monopolies and
collusion in the private sector and help to ensure that, in fact, we
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have a competitive industry which smaller businesses can enter and
find a platform. There are a number of measures that the competition
authorities have launched to investigate cartels and fine them. From
1 May this year we introduced legislation that makes it a criminal
offence punishable by 10 years imprisonment for colluding and acting
corruptly in sectors such as these.
Finally, given the time, I also want to emphasise the importance of
expanding South African markets and markets for South African-made
goods. So we are now working very hard with 25 other African
countries to create a free-trade area that will cover 600 million
consumers. Once we are able to finalise the terms and agree to them,
this free-trade area will very, very significantly expand the market
for South African goods.
Many foreign investors are quite interested in this and they will
see it as a spur to expand their South African manufacturing
operations so that they can target the demand elsewhere on the
African continent.
So these are four interventions aimed at ensuring that the downward
slope of economic growth is reversed and that we re-ignite growth.
Thank you.
Mr J J LONDT: Thank you for your response, hon Minister. Minister,
you have listed numerous steps that your department has taken to
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ensure economic growth or at least prevent a further slide. Yet, as
an emerging economy ... in fact, not just an emerging economy in the
world, but actually a leading economy in Africa, we should show
better growth than what we are doing at the moment. The projected
growth of 0,5% as recently projected by Treasury is just not enough
to address the unemployment that have in South Africa.
From your answers it appears that you are trying your best, yet the
results are not really showing in terms of the economic growth and
also in terms of converting that growth into jobs for South
Africans.
Many economists and commentators have said that one of the main
reasons we are not achieving the desired growth and also getting
more investors over and above those who are currently investing is
because of the country‘s current political instability. Would it be
fair to say that your department, with all these incentives that you
are currently putting in place, is actually doing damage control and
not economic growth, based on the current economic ... or the
political climate ... and when we should, in fact, with your
department, take the lead in Africa, and not just do the damage
control that you are doing at the moment.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much, hon
Londt. Let me start by saying that, if we look at the growth profile
across the African continent, we see exactly the same downward line
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on growth in Nigeria, Egypt, Angola and a number of other African
countries. In fact, if we also look at Brazil and Russia — they are
two quite important countries because they both have commoditydriven economies like ours — then we see a similar pattern. That
pattern has at its heart what happened in 2008. With the meltdown on
Wall Street and the resultant global financial crisis, hon members
will recall that, at the time, China stepped up at the end of 2008
because they knew that, if the global economy were to go into a deep
recession, it would be at an enormously expensive cost to the
Chinese economy. So they essentially converted a lot of their
surplus resources into infrastructure investment. They expanded
their energy plants, they built more roads, and they did big dams
and canals and so on.
That infrastructure programme led to a significant increase in the
demand for commodities — things like iron ore, manganese, coal and
so on. South Africa benefitted from that. Nigeria and Angola also
benefitted because those are two oil-rich economies. We in
particular ... if you look at what happened to iron ore and coal ...
they just went through the roof.
However, about a year ago, China rebalanced its economy. It
recognised that it could not continue to invest at the levels that
it was investing in infrastructure. As it pivoted to what it called
a domestic strategy — investing more in education, health care
services and so on — demand for iron ore and coal dropped.
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We are paying the price for that.
The lesson out of that for us is that we have got to work harder to
rebalance our economy, and not to be exporters of raw material to
the extent that we have been.
So there are a few steps we have taken and I would be very happy to
share with the members what those steps are that we are taking to
ensure that we have a more balanced economy.
Having said all of that, there is no question that the political
economy does matter in creating an environment that is conducive to
investment. So we have to work on all those fronts to be able to
ensure that we deal with our challenges, whether they are induced by
global developments — like the change in commodity prices — or
developments in the South African political economy. Thank you.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair and Minister, it is true that two of the
largest African economies that are competing with us are also on the
downward trend. In fact, the World Bank has projected slow economic
growth throughout the world. We are not exempted from this. We are
all trying to navigate through global and domestic pressures.
What is important is that what we should recognise is that South
Africa quarter has been able to register a trade surplus over the
last recent. This is quite a positive on our part.
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Are we looking into investing more in infrastructural development so
that we build on such a positive? In my view, if you don‘t have
economic growth, you can‘t stimulate consumption. If you can‘t
stimulate consumption, you can‘t have revenue generation mechanisms
to invest into the development paths that you want to pursue.
In your opinion, are we on the right trajectory given the path that
we are trying to pursue? Are we building the export base so that we
can regularise our trade balance? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for the question,
hon member. I would make three points which all come down to the
following: We are taking the right steps, but we need to do even
more of it.
When commentators were surprised by the rise in our GDP after
everybody had predicted that we would go into recession, what became
very evident is that a significant portion of that quarterly growth
came from manufacturing and, in particular, exports to the rest of
the continent.
So, even though African business conditions on the continent are not
as strong, as pro-growth and as robust as they were a year or two
ago, South African manufacturers are finding ways to get into that.
I think that is the first point I want to make.
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Having made that point, I think, a lot can happen and a lot more can
be done in the domestic economy.
Twenty years ago, everybody talked about an export-led model of
growth. But, if everybody is exporting, you will soon get to the
point where you have a crisis caused by over-production. In the
steel industry, for example, we sit now with a global glut. We have
to look at domestic opportunities. We have to find ways in which we
stimulate domestic demand. How can we do that?
One way is deal exactly with hon Mthethwa‘s earlier question on
illegal imports. If we can displace imports from elsewhere in the
world with locally manufactured goods, that is a source of
production growth.
So, in addition to exports, you want to be able to sell more of your
goods in your domestic economy too.
I want to use the example of Ford Motor Company. They produce
vehicles in Tshwane. One of those is the Ford Ranger bakkie. Today,
that plant relies for a big part of its expanding market on selling
bakkies to the rest of the continent. One out of five vehicles
coming out of that plant is sold elsewhere on the African continent.
But you are only able to produce that one out of five if you also
have a market for four out of the five. And so you have got to be
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able to sell in your domestic market and use some of the
efficiencies to build an export line.
The third area that I want to focus on is that some of our
development programmes are not only good from a development point of
view — from a social welfare point of view — but they can also act
as a spur to growth. An example of this is when we invest heavily in
education — the individuals benefit through literacy, numeracy and
so on, but it is also a core investment in the economy.
Also, when we deal with issues like poverty ... when we have rural
development programmes, like providing water and transport in a
rural area, you bring the rural poor into the economy ... into the
mainstream economy.
So it is on all three fronts. Exports, yes, very important, but also
the domestic market, and also development programmes that bring more
South Africans into the economic mainstream, which, ultimately, is
critical to trying to push up our GDP numbers and employment
numbers. Thank you.
Ms T WANA: Chairperson, I want to ask the Minister, after this 20
years of democracy ... I don‘t know whether I am going to emotional
about this ... I want to apologise if I sound emotional.
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The issue of a programme of industrial development zones, IDZs, has
a concentration in East London and the development of uplifting the
economy has a concentration in Port Elizabeth. There is another
portion that is along the seabelt. It starts at Butterworth towards
Port St Johns. If these programmes are concentrated towards the
seabelt, what research is in place to analyse a framework to
establish an industrial zone within the belt of Transkei.
Secondly, the population ... it differs, and the economic suffering
differs. But there is this programme of malls ... and that programme
of malls is part of economic development. My question is, what is
the beneficiation to the people who are serving there from the rural
areas ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Wana ... Honourable ...
Okay, let me make a general appeal to all of you. A supplementary
question should be linked to the original question. It is entirely
up to you, Minister, if you want to comment.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for that remark,
Chairperson. Let me comment very briefly.
First, on the question on our IDZ programme, we have now expanded it
to special economic zones. Special economic zones will not be
limited only to the seabelt. We have left it to each province to
look at its provincial profile and identify what it believes to be
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the most necessary area in which to locate the special economic
zone. In the case of the Eastern Cape it is now up to the Eastern
Cape government to make the choice out of all the many important
areas as to which one would it put first into the queue.
If there is a little bit more time, we can deal with the ... there
is a question later that will deal more specifically with Dimbaza
and I will come back to the Eastern Cape when I deal with that.
Secondly, on the shopping malls issue ... If I understood the
question correctly, it is really about what opportunities are there
for local players in the shopping malls. Now, shopping malls have
become a much bigger part of the South African retail landscape.
While they offer consumers greater choice — you can go to many
different shops in one location — they also compete with smaller
retailers in townships and elsewhere. There have been a number of
complaints about the impact of shopping malls on the retail sector,
particularly small retailers.
Combined with that has been a further problem. That is shopping that
malls appear to have leasing arrangement that would, it is argued,
tend to favour the larger retailers.
So, what are we doing about this, hon members? The Competition
Commission will be having a market enquiry through which it will
look very carefully at shopping malls and township retail. Hon
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members and the constituencies that hon members represent will be
entitled to make their representations to the market enquiry. The
enquiry will be chaired by Prof Halton Cheadle — a very well-known
professor at law.
Based on the evidence that comes out of the market enquiry, there
may well be recommendations on policy that will be put to government
and then dealt with. Of course, it would be great to also bring
those recommendations to the NCOP because it is at the provincial
level that many of those problems manifest themselves. Thank you.
Jobs loss in 2016
274. Mr
M
Khawula
(KwaZulu-Natal:
IFP)
asked
the
Minister
of
Economic Development:
Whether there were any job losses to the South African economy
in the first and second quarters of 2016; if not, what is the
position in this regard; if so, (a) how many and (b) in which
sectors of the economy?
CO540E
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, hon Khawula‘s
question goes to the issue of job losses. Now there are two surveys
that government uses to measure unemployment levels. The one is the
quarterly employment survey. And that is the survey of businesses
themselves which shows that over the six months period there has
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been something of the order of 70 000 job losses. But if we take the
much bigger survey which is the quarterly labour force survey, where
Statistics SA people go knocking on doors and asking individual
householders whether they are employed or unemployed and compare
those results, then the total increases to 473 000. So what we have
done, we have broken this down. We have tried to say where are the
job losses taking places and why has it taken place.
The biggest set of job losses is in the retail sector. Some 144 000
jobs were lost in retail over this period. Now we expect some degree
of job losses in retail normally in the first quarter. And the
reason is simple, the big stores and the shopping malls, and so on;
all boast the employment for Christmas sales. So they take on more
people in December. And generally they have people only for that
December period and turn to shed labour in January and February.
So over the last couple of years we have always lost jobs in
wholesale and retail when it comes to the first quarter. We then
turn to recover that from the second to the fourth quarter. So, are
watching this very closely to see what will happen in the third
quarter. Will we recover some of those jobs and will we by December
have increased the number of jobs. If we don‘t, that is, if by the
third quarter of the year it remains flat and consumer demand is
down by December, then we can have a net job loss for the year. But
the jury is still out on that that.
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The second one is government. Jobs in government, according to the
quarterly labour force survey, shrunk by some 81 000 jobs. We have
looked at the different provinces to see how one breaks this down,
and it gives a very interesting one does it. The single biggest set
of job losses in that period in the government sector appears to be
in KwaZulu-Natal, followed by the second biggest one of your top
provinces, the Western Cape.
There are two provinces that had job growth. I have just taken four
provinces as my sample. I have taken Western Cape, Eastern Cape,
KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. And of these four, two of them grew but
very slightly. Eastern Cape only added 5 000 jobs in the six month
period and Gauteng added only 4 000 jobs.
If you then take into account that Western Cape lost some 16 000
government jobs and KwaZulu-Natal appears to have lost some 48 000
government jobs, you have had a net reduction in government jobs. If
the hon Members in the NCOP are interested we can do a more detailed
analysis for the select committee when we do the annual report of
the Economic Development Department, just perhaps as slide or two,
to show what has happened at provincial level with jobs in the last
six months and the last 12 months.
There are, of course, a few other areas where there have been job
losses: Business sector and construction slowed down and that has
contributed to job losses. They talk to the earlier question that
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hon Londt raised because there is a relationship between economic
growth and jobs growth. When the economy slows down it can result
either in modest jobs growth or in fact job shedding. So that is why
an important of what we need to do is to reignite economic growth
and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement sets out coherently from
government‘s point of view what are some of the key things that we
will be dealing with. If in the supplementary questions there is a
space I would like to perhaps expand a little bit on this. Thank
you, Chairperson.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson to the hon Minister, let me start by
appreciate your offer; we would appreciate the detailed analysis
when you present your annual report. My chairperson here of the
select committee is not disagreeing with me on that. The second one,
hon Minister, is exactly what you have touched on. Can you just
elaborate on how government plans to reignite? Because when jobs get
lost we become consent, especially in the IFP. You know, we are a
party that represents the people and therefore we become very
consent when people suffer. Government is there to serve the people
and my job is to make you, Minister, serve the people. My job right
now is to find out from you: How do you plan to recoup what has been
lost? It is not a responsibility of your department alone but a
responsibility of government and the private sector. What plan is
there, in the long term? Because like you are saying we cannot be
focusing on short-terms. Therefore in the long run, what plans are
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 26 of 159
there to ensure that we recoup whatever gets lost from the people?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I will start by
making an observation because I think the issue of short-term and
long-term is quite important. If we take the last six months, it is
clear we have had quite a sharp reduction in employment. If we take
the period from October 2010 when government adopted a number of
jobs drivers. Taking that much longer period; what has happened
during that period, hon members, is that employment grew by a net
1,9 million additional workers. So you have had quite robust jobs
growth over the period as a whole with a sharp reduction in the last
six months. In fact I would venture that probably the last six
months must be the period during which there was one of the biggest
job reduction.
Coming then to then, what we are going to do. I am going identify
five areas that we are doing currently, but there is a much longer
list, and they are all underpinned by the nine-point plan that
government announced. That nine-point plan says, there are concrete
things we can do in the economy to grow jobs.
The first one is infrastructure, and I want to illustrate it: I went
to Saldanha recently and worked there – and it will come to the next
question – on infrastructure projects that can take off. And in one
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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of the later questions I am asked on infrastructure, I will tire the
reply there.
The second thing is, together with businesses we are engaging with
investors – both domestic and foreign investors - to identify
opportunities for growth in the economy. The example I gave, of the
auto plant that will be set up in the Nelson Mandela Bay illustrates
that. But we are doing something more than simply attracting
investment. We are now saying, how we can encourage those investors
to localise their supply chain. Instead of assembling cars simply
with imported products, how can we make more bumpers and windscreens
and gearboxes and engine blocks, door panels and doors, perhaps even
the electronic vehicles in South Africa because that creates jobs.
The third thing we are doing now, we are trying to attract new
sectors to the South African economy - some in very traditional
industries and some in new industries. Let me take a traditional
industry that I am sure the IFP and the other parties will
appreciate. Five years ago all new taxis where imported. We set down
with Toyota and later with a company called Beijing Auto Works, and
we asked them: How can we ensure that we build taxis on the African
continent? Today we now have taxi production here in South Africa
and in fact eThekwini is a major supplier of taxis to the market.
[Applause.] And I see the applause for that step crosses all party
lines. [Laughter.]
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 28 of 159
The fourth area is public employment programmes, what we call EPWPs.
They begin to deal with some of your short-term employment
challenges. But ultimately we need to do more to draw investment
into your food value chain in the beneficiation of South Africa‘s
mineral supplies. And there is an initiative that we have launched
around fuel cells. We are the world‘s biggest producer of platinum.
But when the car industry globally went into difficulty, when demand
began to drop, demand for platinum also declined. The big users of
platinum are the car industry, they do something called catalytic
converter with it and the second one is the jewellery industry that
makes platinum rings and so on.
Now we cannot change what happens globally to the car industry. But
we can begin to invest to find new users for platinum. So, we are
now co-investing and supporting the development of technology that
uses platinum to generate energy. And again I have the Minister of
Energy next she may well want also add later on this. But we have
got few pilot projects now where people are using platinum. If we
can bring that price down through advances in technology, we can
expand demand for platinum which will help to lift jobs and growth
in the South African economy. So, those are few concrete examples of
what we do.
Under-investment in economic infrastructure
2 NOVEMBER 2016
248. Ms
T
Motara
PAGE: 29 of 159
(Gauteng:
ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
Economic
Development:
Whether the Government is making any progress in addressing the
damage
of
decades
of
under-investment
in
economic
infrastructure that has resulted in the backlog which continue
to render the South African economy under severe strain; if
not, (a) why not and (b) what are the major challenging areas;
if so, what are the relevant details?
CO429E
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, yes, indeed let
me contextualise infrastructure. In the 1970s, the state under
invested in economic infrastructure partly because it dealt with a
small part of the population. Many South Africans were living in the
old Bantustans. Secondly, by the late 70s and early 80s, more and
more of the national budget under apartheid went to military
spending. We inherited a challenge in infrastructure.
In the early years of the new democracy, we invested heavily in the
infrastructure but mainly in social infrastructure, houses,
connecting houses to electricity and so on. For the past eight years
or so, maybe nine years, we began to invest much more heavily in
coeconomic infrastructure, which is what your question relates to.
In the first half it was stimulated by the 2010 World Cup. We built
stadia and we built the Gauteng freeway improvement programme. From
about 2010 and 2011 more of the spending has gone into energy, water
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 30 of 159
and areas like that. If you look at the budget that the Parliament
approves you will see the infrastructure component of it shows a
rising investment spend. Today, we are spending about just over a
billion rand per working day in modernising the South African
infrastructure. Unlike in 2010, it does not always take place in the
main cities, a lot of it is rurally-based infrastructure. Medupi and
Kusile are massive construction sites, but they are not on the way
to the airport, you don‘t see them, but they are quite important.
The Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC,
currently cracks about 300 infrastructure projects. Some very
interesting examples about them in the last financial year alone, we
built 150 schools, 30 clinics and we connected some 250 000 houses
to the electricity grid. I have some data here on the roads that we
paved and the transmission lines that we did. We also built two
large dams and ports were extended. I spoke earlier about Saldanha,
eThekwini and the Port of Nqcukga.
I want to use electricity to illustrate how significant this is. The
first electricity was connected in South Africa in the year 1892. I
think it was before any of us were born. Between that year and 1996,
which is the first census in the democracy, 5,2 million homes were
connected to the energy grid. From 1996 to date, an additional more
than 7,5 million homes were connected to the grid. In other words,
in less than 20 years of democracy we did significantly more than
106 years under apartheid and colonialism. But we need to do even
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 31 of 159
more to deal with the backlogs. One of the key steps is to address
infrastructure spending.
The Minister of Finance announced in the Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement that over the next three years government will be
investing directly and through the partnerships that we enter into,
more than R900 billion in infrastructure. That shows that we had
historical backlogs and we have began to addressing those backlogs
quite strongly. We have not completed the programme and there is
more that needs to be done and we have had to supplement the deep
and significant spending on social infrastructure with new spending
on core economic infrastructure. Thank you.
Ms T MOTARA: Thank you for your response, hon Minister. Minister,
given that the government alone cannot fund all the infrastructure
projects, to what extent has your department received or your
codepartments received private partners to expand public
infrastructure spend? You don‘t have to give monetary values. Is
there an indication of intent by the private sector to join
government towards infrastructure investment and maintenance
spending?
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Yes, indeed, government is
expanding the envelope of public infrastructure spend. In other
words, the amount of money that the fiscus is making available as
Cabinet through the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement we have sent
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 32 of 159
signal to markets that we want to change the composition of spending
and redirect spending away from consumption to investment because
this is the planting of the seeds in an economy. But we also see
enormous opportunities for partnerships with the private sectors. In
fact, we have one example of private sector partnership. I don‘t
know all my examples today are energy examples because the Minister
is seating next to me and she is making sure that I keep energy on
the radar.
The independent power producer, IPP, programme on renewable energy
is one where private investors and government has come to build
solar plants, wind farms and one hydro energy plant. This programme
is an interesting partnership because in addition to foreign
investors we have had South African banks coming to the party and
indeed public institutions like the Industrial Development
Corporation, IDC, and the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA,
have also coinvested. In fact, the IDC exposure to the renewable
energy programme is probably of the order of R15 billion. That is an
enormous some of money that is made available to ensure that we
don‘t rely only on the fiscus to finance infrastructure.
We are now looking at a few other areas where we can do it. Some of
the challenges of private investors are obviously will only invest
when the return justifies that investment. So, the state has to
balance what the increase cost will be of using road through tolling
or using water through the tariff against bringing that extra
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 33 of 159
capital in. It is a balancing act where we try to make sure that we
balance these things carefully.
My final point on the question of partnerships and expanding
infrastructure is, it is not all about money. In fact, very often a
constraint in infrastructure spending is not fundamentally founded
on the absence of capital, but it is because we do not have the
requisite technical skills to move a project quickly from conception
to execution. Those should be engineers, project managers,
procurement specialists, quantity surveyors and so on, that can come
in and package the projects so that they are capable of being
bankable. In other words we can go to capital markets and raise
money for them or alternatively they can be monitored because you
cannot take a massive investment project and simple approve it
without seeing how you will finance it, not only the building of it,
but also its operation and maintenance.
So, we are now looking at how we can improve the technical
capability in government. The PICC and the National Treasury are
working closely together at the request of Cabinet to see how we can
put together better and additional technical skills to help shift
and lift the rate of public investment. Thank you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Thank you for putting into context the economic
infrastructure investment over the years although the 1892 and the
investment after that does not make sense, but you can do anything
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 34 of 159
with statistics. We would have liked to know from the samples that
the Minister have analysed actually how many houses were there in
1892. But this is for another day. Hon Chair, we would like to know
... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order! hon members. Hon
Hattingh, you are protected. Hon Motlashuping!
Mr C HATTINGH: I would like to know in the context of infrastructure
and investment. As reference was made to public-private
partnerships, what effect does the current economic instability in
our country, the threat of another credit rating downgrade,
allegations of fraud, corruption, state capture, etc have on the
prospective investment in South Africa and are steps being taken to
counter and mitigate these effects? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Hatting, thank you for
that. Let me start with the 1892 issue because it is actually very
important. We have compared the number of households connected from
the first time when the first house was connected, which happens by
the way to be in Cape Town, over 106 years. In other words, we are
not saying how many houses were connected in 1892. We said, for the
entire 106 years, at the end of 106th year, there were only
5,2 million homes connected to the electricity grid. I would
encourage hon Hatting to even, perhaps, ask the hon members sitting
here today. Many of the hon members sitting here today if they can
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 35 of 159
just for a moment go back 25 years ago to 1990, you will find that
many hon members seated here were living in townships without any
electricity. Soweto was still known as the the dark city. Today, if
you drive through Soweto you will see the benefits of urban
development, electricity, water and so on. All parties must
celebrate what the democracy is achieving. It is our common
heritage, something we can all say, fantastic! That does not mean we
must not do even more because when we say we have done a lot, it
does not take away the responsibility to do even more as we go
forward.
I want to go briefly forward by looking at the economic environment,
the question of credit rating and so on. I will start with the
credit rating issue. It is important for us to maintain the best
possible credit rating, and there is a reason for it. Your credit
rating determines the cost of your capital. In other words, what is
the interest rate that is charged on the money that you borrow both
in the domestic and the global markets. It is important for us that
we interact with credit ratings to be able to show them what our
fundamentals are like. The other day the IDC was subject to a review
by the Fitch Ratings, one of the credit rating agencies. I sat down
with the Fitch Ratings, I took them through the IDC‘s financials where it was strong and where there were challenges. We pointed out
in the case of the IDC that it had strong governance arrangements.
There was no question raised about corruption or anything like that
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 36 of 159
in respect of the IDC. The Fitch Ratings came back and reaffirmed
the IDC‘s very strong credit rating.
Let me take that to a country level. At country level there is no
question about it. We all see that it is important to combat
corruption in both the public sector and in the private sector. In
the public sector there is tender fraud and in the private sector
there is collusion by companies, price fixing and so on. If we do
that, we release resources that can go into investment and that can
go into improving the lives of all South Africans. I think we must
have common cause across party lines that corruption is bad for the
economy, corruption is bad for the South African people and we must
stand firm against it, whether that corruption takes place in the
private sector or in the public sector. [Applause.]
Finally, on the issue of the economy in the global environment where
many economies are battling, investors are looking at where can they
get the best return and where is the guarantee that that return and
their property will be safe. We have one institution that is
particularly important in South Africa. I call it an institution
because it is more than one just a piece of law, it is the South
African Constitution. That Constitution is the bedrock of our
government, of our democracy, of the rights of workers, the rights
of investors and the rights of citizens. When we point out to
foreign investors the protections in the Constitution that we can‘t
get to a point where power is usurped, there would be democratic
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 37 of 159
elections, there is a free country and that the judiciary is
independent, they take note of that. They say it is better to invest
in an environment like that. Even though it is a noisy democracy and
even though there are challenges in our political economy that we
must deal with, no question about it, but they look beyond the
short-term. They say when you have a Constitution that protects the
rights of everybody, that is the kind of place that we want to
invest in.
But they also need secure energy, which is where the investment in
power plants, renewable energy and the expansion of our energy grid,
is so important. Then, they look at people. They want to see skilled
workers in an economy and investment in education particularly
quality high school education and education through the Technical
and Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges and
universities are another aspect. We have to get all of these right.
When we get all these right and improve them, investment flows to
economies like that. On this, it is a work in progress. I think we
are making progress on some of these. But I also recognise that
there are challenges in other areas that we must address. I have
attempted to give a very frank response that investors look at.
I was in Davos in January this year and we met a large number of
foreign investors. Their interest was in this detail. They wanted to
know whether we have a secure energy supply. Based on that we are
working hard on the Nine-Point Plan and the measures that different
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 38 of 159
government departments are taking and they are all critical in
unlocking more investment in the economy. Thank you.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Chairperson, my question is on the issue of starting
to invest in the economic infrastructure. I want to know, is this
debate across all spheres of government? I am asking this question
because I would like to know if the municipalities are already on
that mode of investing in that. Conscious of the fact that they do
have a lot of backlogs in terms of infrastructure, they need to
start doing it because for them to be able to build the economy of
their regions and be able to contribute to the gross domestic
product, GDP, of the country they also need to focus on economic
infrastructure. That is why I am asking you this question. Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Yes, indeed hon member, when
we announced the R900 billion infrastructure envelope we don‘t mean
that that is a national budget. That is spread across all three
spheres. Here is an interesting little fact about spending on
infrastructure. If one takes municipal spending as a whole,
municipalities invest more in infrastructure than national
government departments. National government is a major player in
infrastructure through state-owned companies. If you take stateowned companies out of the equation, municipalities spend more than
the national departments. Of course once you add state-owned
companies in, because they are big instruments, then the picture
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 39 of 159
changes and national government is a very significant driver of
infrastructure investment.
Coeconomiuc infrastructure needs a municipal connection. I want to
give a very complex example of the De Hoop Dam. We‘ve built this
massive dam in Limpopo. The national government led the programme.
It is a dam which is able to supply water to communities and to the
mines. Once you have your dam you need water pipelines. We are
building the big water pipelines to the major areas, but from the
water pipelines you need to reticulate water to communities, and
that is a municipal function. Because we have not done that, many
communities there, for example, Jane Furse in the Sekhukhune area
don‘t have water even though there is this massive new dam that has
been built. They can see the big water pipelines going past them.
So, it underscores us in national government - the importance of coordinating the work of municipalities on infrastructure with the
work of national government. We can‘t just leave it and say, well it
is a separate and distinct sphere of government. Yes, of course it
is, but if it is not well co-ordinated, you are going to find this
kind of challenges and therefore I want to highlight that.
In one other area, a big part of transport infrastructure, is not
just these national roads, but it is also urban transport - there is
Rea Vaya in Johannesburg, A Re Yeng in Tshwane and MyCiTi in Cape
Town. The effort is to learn from global best practices and
introduce an incentive of cheaper and faster public transport. If
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 40 of 159
every person who wants to travel in the city aspires to have a car
we may be like Jakarta, the capital city of Indonesia. If ever hon
members want to punish errand members send them to Jakarta and let
them drive from the airport to the inner city during rush hour. It
takes hours to get from one part of the city to the other part. I
make that light hearted comment, but it is a serious issue. We have
to improve public transport. There is much that we can learn from
Indonesia by the way, but I think on the question of urban transport
there are models elsewhere in the world where public transport is
the centre piece and is supplemented by private transport. Take a
city like London, they have invested a lot more in public transport.
Anyone who has been to London has seen how easy it is to move around
the city. On a proportional basis there are fewer cars in the inner
city than even in Johannesburg or Cape Town. So, that is municipal
investment. Municipalities lead that and you can see clearly the
connection between that and the economy.
Finally, those buses, the MyCiTi and Rea Vaya buses, are now
manufactured here in South Africa. [Applause.] Let me say this about
the Rea Vaya buses, the key investor is a company called Bus Mart It
is black South African – a black industrialist. Thank you.
Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair and hon Minister, you know that any
progress in the economy must be sustained. I agree somewhat that,
yes, our Constitution is there and it is good, but if neglected it
is not good. You seem to be economical in your analysis of what the
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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rating agencies look at. They look at these things too. They look at
the good Constitution, but they look at how we deal with our good
Constitution. They look at institutional abuse, they look at weak
leadership and they look at state capture. These all impact
negatively on our economy and it will hamper our progress.
My question is, as a Minister you do all you can to grow our economy
and I have the greatest respect for that because that is a caring
government if you grow the economy as people will get jobs. But as a
Minister, what are your proposals in the economic climate? This is
hampering the progress we are making as South Africans. What are you
doing about this? What are you saying? You cannot just keep quiet.
Thank you.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius! Hon Minister, it is
entirely a new question not linked to the original one, but I will
leave it to the Minister to comment if he want to.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: House Chairperson, I would
like to respond although fairly briefly. My response to hon Julius
is to recognise what I call political economy. Political economy
matters in investment. All of those issues that you have referred to
economists describe them as the political economy of a country. It
is also important to say, and I think we need to be fearless about
it, that we must act against corruption; we must act against any
person who seeks to misuse our public institutions.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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I also want to highlight the point that rating agencies
fundamentally look at one issue. The fundamental thing that they
look at ultimately is, are you capable of repaying the loans that
are made. They need to see a positive growth story in the economy
too. They need to see obviously that everybody is looking at
political, economic and demographic factors and so on. But the key
for them ultimately is what your growth story is. That is what they
say to us when we meet them. South Africa needs to have a credible
growth story that can show the economy increasing the growth rate.
That is fundamental.
When I say that, it in no way detracts from the fact that we need to
address the challenges in the political economy more generally as
part of dealing with creating an environment in which our people
have a high degree of faith and confidence in governance and in what
we are doing. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, in terms of the
Rules of the NCOP, now we were supposed to deal with Question 269,
but unfortunately no arrangement was made and the member is not in
the House. So, hon members join me in thanking the Minister and the
Deputy Minister for availing themselves to deal with their questions
for the Department of Economic Development. [Applause.] Thank you.
Great Inga Water Project in DRC
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 43 of 159
260. Mr E R Makue (Gauteng: ANC) asked the Minister of Energy:
(1)
When will the power from the Great Inga Water Project in
the
Democratic
Republic
of
the
Congo
benefit
South
Africans;
(2)
whether there are any reasons or causes for the delays in
this regard; if not, why has it taken so many years for
this project to deliver electricity to South Africa; if so,
what are the relevant details?
CO524E
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Makue, I
hope I got it correct this time. It should be clearly understood
that South Africa is not the builder or the constructor of the Grand
Inga Project. The Democratic Republic of Congo is a sovereign
nation, and they will construct Grand Inga Hydroelectricity Project.
South Africa is an off-taker of that electricity. So, we have no
jurisdiction over when they procure, how they procure, when they
appoint preferred bidders. So, the DRC has not appointed any
preferred bidders. They are still working with preferred developers,
and because South Africa is not the constructor of the
hydroelectricity dam, we no control over the timeframe in which that
dam will be built and the energy will be supplied to South Africa.
But needless to say that if the hydroelectricity project is
completed, that energy has to be transported from the DRC to South
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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Africa. So, it has to come through at least three different
countries before it reaches South Africa.
South Africa on each side is working with the Southern African power
pool, which includes Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia, Angola, and a
range of other countries to discuss the integration of the grid for
energy supply in the Southern Africa state. Thank you.
Mr E MAKUE: Minister, thank you very much for that reply which helps
in two ways. Firstly, clarifying that the project is led by the DRC,
but the second point that you are making links to my follow up
question about the other countries in the region and the importance
of co-ordinating with this countries where the electricity lines
will run through.
When we received the report from the Department of Energy, the
question that we were raising is that as South Africans and the way
we perceive our role within the Southern African Development
Community, SADC, region, it is going to be important for us not to
be seen as a big brother, but also for countries through which this
electricity lines will be running to benefit from the project, and
you have given us that assurance which is appreciated. I thank you,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: This is precisely our role in SADC. Hon
members will know that South Africa imports hydroelectricity from
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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the Cahora Bassa Dam, in Mozambique. We are quite dependent on the
supply of hydroelectricity from the Cahora Bassa Dam, and that is in
the northern part of Mozambique.
We receive that electricity from Mozambique without the Mozambican
along that transmission route receiving electricity. This does cause
a lot disgruntlement and unhappiness, correctly so, from the local
people. So, our engagement with the SADC region and what we call the
Southern African power pool is to strengthen the grid so that when
we exit or evacuate energy from a particular country that the
communities along that power line is also supplied with energy.
So, the Department of Energy is assisting the SADC secretariat in
negotiating with the DRC, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, and Angola
because we should also realise that DRC has quite a long west to
east corridor. So, if the dam is going to be closer to Kinshasa,
then we will be able to evacuate the energy via Congo-Brazzaville,
Angola and Namibia. So, there is a western corridor bringing the
hydroelectricity to South Africa, but there is also an Eastern
corridor, which is via Zambia, Zimbabwe and Botswana to South
Africa. That would then mean that we would have to take the energy
from Kinshasa to the Katanga region of the DRC.
We are assisting to facilitate the development and preparation of
project documents and design. We are assisting them with the
proposals to develop, operate and maintain a high-voltage, direct
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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current, HVDC, transmission scheme that would be able to deliver at
least 2 500 megawatts of energy to South Africa. But the technical
aspects of bringing or evacuating that energy from the DRC to South
Africa would be the cost implications, and that would be our
challenge and it‘s what we are assisting them with. Because the
technical know how is step up step down electricity and we don‘t
want to pay enormous amounts of money for energy, and by the time it
gets to South Africa and doesn‘t give us value for money.
So, I hope that answers your question. We cannot speculate about
procurement costs and the time, but certainly it would be imperative
for the development of the region that we do get the Grand Inga
operational, and the project has to start as soon as possible. I
thank you.
Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, I thought there is someone else. I
wasn‘t ready. Hon Minister, there are certain communities in the
DRC, about five villages that must be moved in order for this dam to
be extended, and I don‘t think they are happy. So, there are a few
risks involved. I don‘t think is too major at this stage. Noting
that the South African envisage to procure more than 50%, which is
2 500 megawatts of the 4 800 megawatts of the Inga 3 Project, and in
view of the suspension of the World Bank‘s financing of Inga 3 in
July 2016, this year, what steps have been taken to alleviate the
potential loss due to the postponement of the delivery of these
2 500 megawatts of power? Thank you.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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The MINISTER OF ENERGY (Ms T M Joemat-Pettersson): The DRC is a
sovereign country. We are not responsible for the resettlement of
communities. So, that wouldn‘t be the responsibility or the business
of the Republic of South Africa. However, we have a very strong
human rights culture and of course we wouldn‘t want communities to
be unnecessarily displaced if we participate in such a project.
We are not the funder of the actual building of the dam. So, we
cannot then provide those kinds of assurance to the World Bank or
whatever funding institution on behalf of the DRC. South Africa has
surplus of energy currently. So, the success of Eskom and the
ability of South Africa to bring Kusile and Medupi online has
assisted us in creating energy surplus right now. So, that is a huge
success story.
The surplus energy can now be utilised in our smelters, mines, and
the generation of energy for our economy. You would recall that when
we didn‘t have that energy supply, we curtailed the demand. Now that
we have the supply, we are working on increasing the demand, and
that demand of especially our mining sector would be fulfilled. We
would like to see a number of our smelters coming online again
because we would be able to deliver energy to them.
A secure supply of energy is imperative for business development.
Our independent power producer programme, which has been the most
successful, it is completely applauded globally as a project where a
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 48 of 159
country has brought in the private sector to generate energy, and I
think South Africans should claim this as victory, and not because
it was delivered by an ANC Minister.
I think we are absolutely clouded by this nuclear boogie man or
boogie person that we don‘t even realise that in the meantime we are
the best procurer of renewable energy in the world. [Applause.]
Well, we don‘t also need renewable energy. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister, don‘t be
tempted to respond to what is not a question.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: No, but this is a very important statement.
We must very careful to say that if we have energy surplus we
therefore don‘t need nuclear energy. We actually do. If we have
energy surplus, then I should also stop the renewable energy
projects, but we are planning for our future. So, our future depends
on supply and the demand that can be met, but also demands site
management so that we get the balance between households supply and
commercial supply.
Our other imperative is also to get our carbon emissions and our
carbon credits in a fine balance, and I think we need to spend a
little bit more time once members have scrutinised the draft
Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, or the Integrated Energy Plan, IEP,
which will be public, and which I hope members will scrutinise and
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 49 of 159
send us comments for integration into the IRP and the IEP. I thank
you.
Electricity generated
250. Mr O S Terblanche (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of
Energy:
(a) How much electricity is (i) currently generated from other
suppliers other than Eskom and (ii) her department hoping to
outsource and (b) for how long will the outsourcing take place?
CO506E
The MINISTER OF ENERGY (Ms T M Joemat-Pettersson): House Chair, our
department procured renewable energy from independent power
producers of the private sector and we have procured 6300 megawatts
and 2800 megawatts of this has already being supplied to the grid.
This is a private sector partnership. 1000 megawatts is under
construction because it was procured in different phases. You do
recall that we had round one, two, three and 3,54. So, because we
are procuring in different phases, we offer and sign through Eskom
power purchase agreements at different prices.
The current operational power plants have managed to produce
approximately 11 784 gigawatts to date. In addition to the
renewable, we procured 1000 megawatts through diesel fire power
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 50 of 159
plants to address the electricity demand during peak time, morning
and evening. Two power plants were procured in this regard and both
plants are in operation. The first plant started last on 30
September 2015 and the other plant commenced operation in September
2016. Hon members, you should appreciate that a year ago you were
asking me questions about load shedding. This year we can speak to
you about how we‘ve accelerated the generation of electricity in our
country through the participation of the private sector. Thank you.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: House Chairperson, hon Minister, I think you can
indeed be proud on what you have achieved to source additional
electricity to our economy and the grid. Just a question on this,
what is the difference in cost, on average between one kilowatt
power generated by the private suppliers and the same quantity
generated by Eskom? Is there any difference, which source is the
most beneficial for the economy and the environment from the
pollution perspective? Thank you House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY (Ms T M Joemat-Pettersson): Thank you hon
member for your questions and comments. The final determination of
our energy mix and the split of energy is what will assist us in
determining the variables of price. Round one and round two of our
renewable energy programme came in at a very high cost. It is
heavily subsidised through tariffs. However, the latest rounds,
because of the development of technology, are coming in very cheap.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 51 of 159
The hon member should also take into account that we do not have the
technology for the storage capacity of renewable energy to solar and
wind. So, we can only utilise the renewable energy, the solar and
the wind energy for a third of the day. Now, that drives up the cost
of renewable energy because for two-thirds of the day or the
evening, the sun isn‘t shining or the wind isn‘t blowing, we cannot
then supply the grid with renewable energy. That pushes up the cost
of renewable energy but technology is changing and the storage
capacity for wind and solar technology will be developing. Solar
Photovoltaic, PV, is coming in quite cheaper and it is very
comparable with other energy sources or energy mixes.
In the next ten years we will have to retire at least six large coal
fire power stations; Grand Dales, Hendrina and all those huge coal
fire power stations, which will create a challenge for our base load
requirement. For base load right now, to have the energy mix between
base load and the availability of supply, we are not going to be
able to build that many coal fire power stations because we have to
reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.
If we are not going to rapidly build more coal fire power stations,
then we need an alternative source for base load. With Integrated
Resource Plan or IRP and IEP will now be published for public
comment and once we‘ve received that input we will be then finetuning the pricing of our future energy mix. For now, the cheaper
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 52 of 159
source of energy to our grid is nuclear energy from Koeberg. Thank
you.
Independent Power Producers
261. Mr M I Rayi (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Energy:
What role will the (a) Khanyisa and (b) Thabametsi Independent
Power Producers play in (i) ensuring a secure power supply and
(ii) improving economic development (details furnished)?
CO525E
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Thank you very much, hon member. I have
developed an argument today about independent power producers. I‘m
not going to explain a lot more, but Khanyisa and Thabametsi
Independent Power Producers are, in fact, a part of the Integrated
Resource Plan, IRPs or the Independent Power Producer, IPPs.
I would not be able to say when we would achieve commercial
operation. If we do not achieve commercial operation there is
normally a negotiations which we do enter into. We have entered into
negotiation with Eskom on the connections of our IPP projects. You
would know that we are negotiating on the power purchase agreement
with Eskom. Thank you.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 53 of 159
Mr M RAYI: Thank you, hon House Chair, and thank you Minister.
Having listened to the announcement that you made about the two
projects, one in Limpopo and the other one in Mpumalanga, it is very
impressive in that; one, the construction and the operation
altogether will create about 20 000 jobs; but what is also
impressive is the fact that it also promotes Black Economic
Empowerment, but it also adds about 830 or 63 megawatts to the grid.
The question therefore, would be whether there is any intention to
roll-out similar projects in other provinces, because if you were to
calculate this 20 000, just for the two provinces altogether you
will be talking about 180 000 jobs that would be created just around
construction and operations. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Thank you, hon members. I think sometimes it
is a bit difficult to sing your own praises you know, but anyway,
thank you for – I didn‘t do it you know in my response, but hon
member, the two projects we are mentioning in the independent power
producers was the capacity which we determine in terms of the IRPs.
Now together the determination will give us 2 500 megawatts of coal
fire plants. I have now given a capacity of 863 megawatts, which
will be in operation by 2021, as you said 20 000 jobs will be
created through these two coals fired power plants. I would then
still be left with more than 1 500 electricity under the current
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 54 of 159
2010 IRP, to give to independent power producers, that‘s just for
coal.
So, certainly we could create more and more power plants, but
because we are all anticipating a new IRP, I‘m a little bit
reluctant to continue at a rapid pace so that I can take into
account the figures we have with the new IRP. In respect of our
economic development objectives, the preferred bidders have
committed to threshold in terms of local content, South Africa
enters into participation with a Broad-Based Black Economic
Empowerment shareholding.
The minimum commitments were set in respect of social, enterprising
skills development, the local economic development programme is
quite significant and there is the social enterprise development.
Four of these programmes are quite significant.
The IPP programmes which have been developed over the past rounds,
the first three rounds, they will be generating a return of
investment for the community trust of at least R1 billion over 20
years and we have to plan for that kind of spending in communities
so that the money is spent appropriately; but we are working with
the Northern Cape government and other governments, because many of
these trusts will be in the Northern Cape.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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So Northern Cape there is quite a lot of work to be done by the
communities, because we know what happened to trusts. They start
fighting immediately there is money available. So, we need to manage
what they will spend the money on because some would want it as cash
in hand and I don‘t think we should be doing that. We should be
spending it on economic development projects in the communities. I
thank you.
Consideration of draft Integrated Resource Plan
277. Mr
L
B
Gaehler
(Eastern
Cape:
UDM)
asked
the
Minister
of
Energy:
Whether
her
department‘s
draft
Integrated
Resource
Plan
has
been considered in the deliberations with Eskom regarding the
new nuclear build project, if not, why not; if so, what are the
relevant details?
CO543E
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Hon Chairperson, we have presented the draft
Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, and the draft Integrated Energy Plan,
IEP, to Cabinet. The Minister in the Presidency will be announcing
tomorrow that these documents will go out formally for public
comments and those public comments will be taken into account when
we finalise the IRP and the IEP.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 56 of 159
The first stage is development of a least cost plan or a base case
based on the promulgated 2010-2030 IRP, as a starting base. The
second stage of the IRP is to update the policy adjustments and that
then will go back to Cabinet for completion IEP and IRP. I thank
you.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Minister, what are the processes underway
towards the finalisation of the nuclear project? What are the
timeframes attached to it? How is the project resourced? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: House Chairperson, hon Gaehler, today
Cabinet has endorsed that Eskom becomes the owner operator and
procurer of the nuclear power programme. As soon as we have
developed the programme through Eskom, we will be able to get back
to the NCOP to give you further information. I thank you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister, in
view of the projected lower electricity demand by 2030. Reduction
from 67 800 Megawatts to 61 200 Megawatts thick and that is a
reduction of about 6 600 Megawatts due to the exponential economic
growth suggested by the National Development Plan, NDP, and this is
to reduce unemployment and alleviate poverty and a shift in economic
development away from energy intensive industries, the potential of
shell gas production, and future fuel costs, that is gas and coal
versus the uncertainty of nuclear energy costs and the rapid
expansion of renewable energy at very much reduced prices, would the
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 57 of 159
department, Cabinet, government consider postponing the decision to
introduce further nuclear energy until after 2025?
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: I have explained and I will continue
explaining the integrated resource plan and the integrated energy
plan which I would like the hon member to scrutinise and to respond
to; because this is the period where we will be taking comments.
We need that kind of projection when we do our assumptions for the
future. When we have that kind of information then we determine the
different scenarios for growth, the scenarios for a lack of growth
and the scenario planning is the first phase of the integrated
resource plan.
The planning of nuclear is a long process which started already
during the period of former President Mandela. The first White Paper
on Energy Policy which included the need for nuclear which developed
through the government of former President Mandela or the ANC-led
government.
The first intergovernmental agreement on nuclear was signed by the
then Minister of Foreign Affairs in 2004. So this has been a long
programme. We have been working on this already since former
President Mandela was the President. If we agree to the building of
the nuclear power plant it would take us another five years of
planning the exact details before we start building. If the nuclear
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 58 of 159
power plant starts – I think we would have already delayed it quite
considerably and it would take us at least another five years before
we start building it. By then, the situation could have changed
radically in our country.
This planning is not done by the Department of Energy alone; it is
done by a group of experts. I have a ministerial advisory committee
which includes Prof Anton Eberhard and Chris Yelland, who advise me
on the future needs for the electricity supply as well as the energy
mix. Those decisions will have to be taken. We can‘t delay it for
much longer.
Green Economy
263. Mr
S
G
Mthimunye
(Mpumalanga:
ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
Energy:
(a) What is the role of the Green Economy in job creation and
(b) what programmes does her department have in support of the
Green
Economy
projects
in
maximising
its
job
potential?
creation
CO528E
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Hon House Chair, in the energy space, the
green economy has the largest potential to create jobs with the
minimal amount of investment. As an example, the regulations
promulgated by the department requiring energy users to compile
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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energy management plans relating to the energy usage implies that
energy auditors have to be employed in various sectors of the
economy in order to produce this energy management plans.
The types of jobs that result from this generation are highly
qualified skill jobs, which are sustainable into the future. We have
also creating a number of jobs for the solar water heating system,
but unfortunately the demand is so great and we cannot keep up with
the demand. Every member asks me for solar water heaters, but please
be patient. We are rolling out the Solar Water Heater Programme and
we do realise that the Solar Water Heater Programme has the
potential to create job opportunities in the green economy, which
will be complemented by the Expanded Public Works Programme. I thank
you.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Minister, can I dream allow just to trigger your
response? How about the green economy being roll-out by 2030 in
every township and village through co-ops that will assist create
jobs there, co-ops that are run by the local communities and also
assist to bring down the cost of household budget since we know that
in almost every household the second highest cost is that of
electricity? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: I am thinking in the same direction. We have
implemented a pilot project for, especially the electrification of
informal settlements because when we speak of household
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 60 of 159
electrification or universal access to electricity, we normally
calculate the number of houses in your formal settlement and not in
your informal settlement. So, we have run a very interesting and
very successful pilot programme for renewable energy or solar energy
being provided to your informal settlements. I think we should
honour and recognise Dr Wolsey Barnard for the significant role he
has played in the roll-out of how solar electricity or our
Integrated National Electrification Programme.
Now, this project was so successful that we can include local women,
the youth and train them in various green energy technology,
including the manufacturing, the installation, the maintenance and
the monitoring of the project.
The Solar Water Heater Programme was a very successful programme,
but we didn‘t train your co-operatives, your youth or your women in
the maintenance or the installation of the heater.
So, many of those geysers were installed without the necessary know
how and a number of those geysers are not working. So, if we train
the youth or women to do the maintenance of those geysers, firstly,
they would have been stored properly. Secondly, they would have to
maintain it. That will create sustainable jobs.
So, there are a number of projects in clean energy that could create
more jobs. The disadvantaged communities are also now been given
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 61 of 159
projects concentrating on biomass, biogas and solar and wind
technologies.
Previously, disadvantage South Africans will be given huge
opportunities as we unfold this programme for biomass and biogas.
You know, cow dung is free of charge. So, turning cow dung into
energy, will just be a manner of collecting the cow dung. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, can you join me
taking this opportunity to thank you, hon Minister, for availing
yourself to answer question in the National Council of Provinces.
Thank you, Minister. [Applause.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: House Chairperson, it is unfair. You have to deal
with these questions properly: The fact that you call a Minister to
answer one question only. So, please in future ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It‘s not a point of order hon
Gaehler; can you take your seat?
Mr L B GAEHLER: ... Please, it is unfair ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you take your seat?
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 62 of 159
Mr L B GAEHLER: ... And you can see members are not interested. Some
of them are worried about their report at 5 o‘clock. The ANC members
are sick here as you can see. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Gaehler, that is not a
point of order. [Laughter.] Hon Deputy Minister, you are welcome.
Let me invite ... Order, members. Hon Deputy Minister, in terms of
our Rules, the member who asked Question 273 is not in the House and
has not made any arrangement in that regard and therefore it means
that that question will lapse. So, we will go straight to Question
264, asked by hon Makue. That is why the member is talking about one
question; however, that was not a point of order.
Cooperation between department & BBBEE Commission
264. Mr E R Makue (Gauteng: ANC) asked the Minister of Labour:
Whether
any
practical
between
her
department
Empowerment
Commission,
plans
and
are
the
in
place
Broad-Based
particularly
on
for
cooperation
Black
matters
Economic
affecting
affirmative action; if not, why not; if so, (a) what plans and
(b) what are the results of the cooperation?
CO529E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: House Chairperson, thanks for
allowing us as the department to come and share some information on
matters pertaining the department. The Minister is unable to be with
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 63 of 159
us as she is involved in an engagement relating to the Binational
Commission with the Republic of Zimbabwe. She is in Zimbabwe today,
and she requested me to come and give the responses on her behalf.
To answer the question from hon Makue, yes, in so far as creating
legislative resonance between the Employment Equity Act and the
Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, Act is concerned,
there are plans in place to facilitate co-operation between the
Department of Labour and the BBBEE Commission.
This is bound to be easy to achieve now that the legal framework is
in place. However, despite not having the legislative instrument in
past, there have been concerted efforts to construct co-operation
between the department, specifically the Commission for Employment
Equity, CEE, and the Department of Trade and Industry with respect
to the BBBEE empowerment unit.
The objective of these continuous engagements is to ensure alignment
in relation to implementation of these two pieces of legislation as
they are the main drivers of social and economic transformation. One
of the BBBEE commissioners serves as a member on the Employment
Equity Commission as a representative of the state.
This arrangement entrenches direct co-operation between the BBBEE
Commission and the CEE in advising the Minister of Labour on
employment policies and other related matters. Notably, we have
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 64 of 159
worked with the BBBEE unit in relation to the management and control
scorecard of the BBBEE codes to ensure alignment between the two
pieces of legislation.
The following had been achieved prior to establishment of the BBBEE
Commission: The DTI had a representative from the BBBEE unit
representing government on the CEE; collaboration between the DTI
and the Department of Labour on the initial employment equity
scorecard in terms of the BBBEE codes; collaboration between the two
departments on aligning the definition of the designated groups in
the Employment Equity Act and the black people in the BBBEE Act as
amended.
Alignment of the occupational levels in the BBBEE scorecard to the
occupational levels in the Employment Equity Act and its
regulations, for example, previously, the top and senior management
levels were not covered as part of the management and control
component of the BBBEE scorecard. Furthermore, the old BBBEE
scorecard did not cover the intersection of race and gender as part
of the measuring criteria. Now, with the alignment to the Employment
Equity Act requirements, we are able to ensure that the different
groups within the black group with regard to race and gender i.e.
Africans, Coloureds and Indians are being equitably represented.
In accordance with their economically active population
demographics, instead of having only one race group within the black
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 65 of 159
group being represented, especially in the top and senior management
level.
In addition, the alignment ensures that women of the various race
groups within the black group are taken into account in the
measuring criteria utilised by the BBBEE verification agencies
before any BBBEE certificates are issued to any company for
tendering processes.
Setting the minimum percentage in terms of the targets on the
scorecard for an employer to qualify for any points in terms of
occupational level, making employment equity reports available
during the verification process, for example, the BBBEE verification
agencies only utilise or take into account the verification process
as authentic, verification source, copies of the employment equity
reports submitted to the Department of Labour by any companies
before rating a company on the employment equity scorecard in the
BBBEE codes. If no such proof can be obtained from the Department of
Labour and the employment equity system, no points are awarded to
such company for BBBEE certificates.
The following has been achieved after the establishment of the BBBEE
Commission in 2015-16 financial years. The first acting commissioner
appointed after the formation of the BBBEE Commission was appointed
by the Minister of Labour to represent government on the Commission
on Employment Equity. Having representation of a commissioner of the
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 66 of 159
BBBEE Commission ensures that the advice the Minister receives from
the Commission on Employment Equity incorporate strategies to
continually monitor, consult and ensure alignment between the two
pieces of legislation.
Incorporating employment equity is an element of the management
control scorecard after the seven elements in the BBBEE codes was
reduced and clustered into five elements. The meeting between the
BBBEE unit and the Employment Equity Directorate is currently being
arranged to identify areas for further alignments including
preferential procurements and state contracts, compliance,
verification and auditing processes for employment equity skills
development and so on.
Collaboration between the two departments has, therefore, been
taking place from the inception of the BBBEE Act and its codes since
2003. Now that you have the BBBEE Commission with a representative
on the CEE, we are certain that the alignment between the two pieces
of legislation will be strengthened and lead to improved results.
Thank you.
Mr E MAKUE: House Chairperson, thanks to the Deputy Minister for a
comprehensive feedback, particularly, to highlight co-operation and
the Employment Equity Act, the scorecard and the alignment. But in
terms of our role, we see it as important to recognise that there
will be those employers that will try and crook the system.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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Therefore, my question is: Would you be able to give us an
indication of what training would also be provided to the labour
inspectors on the ground to look at the BBBEE, in particular, to
also to look at the empowerment of people with disabilities?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: House Chairperson, well, of course,
there will always be people who will try to undermine the programme
of economic and social transformation. Hence, it will obviously be
necessary if we discover that indeed our inspectors as currently
employed in their positions are not able to do the work that is
expected of them to be given the necessary training. As a
department, we always welcome ideas that are going to ensure
improvement in the work that we are doing as we strive for this
economic and social transformation of our nation.
I unfortunately cannot be able to say what kind of training will be
provided exactly but once as the work progresses and shortcomings
established, that training will be provided. Yes, that‘s my response
to the question. I beg your pardon?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you can‘t ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: There was another point that he
raised. I just forgot. Can he be allowed?
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 68 of 159
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, I can allow him.
Mr E MAKUE: House Chairperson, it on people with disabilities.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: Oh yes, that is very important.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes, people living with
disabilities, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF LABOUR: Yes, as the custodians of the
Employment Equity Act, we always want to ensure that persons with
disabilities are also taken into account. So, as we work together
with the Commission on BBBEE, we will ensure that that is always
taken on board. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: House Chairperson, I have information
that they can arrive any minute from now. I appeal to your kind
heart that we have body break?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, I suggest we
have a comfort break for five minutes. Let‘s have a comfort break
for five minutes whilst waiting for them.
Business suspended.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 69 of 159
Purpose/relevance of EPWP
265. Mr J M Mthethwa (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked
the Minister of
Public Works:
(1)
Whether the Expanded Public Works Programme (EPWP) is still
relevant and serves the intended purpose to South Africans
(details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the
relevant details;
(2)
whether his department has any measures in place to (a)
monitor and (b) evaluate the work done and time spent on
work by persons absorbed in EPWP; if not, why not; if so,
what are the relevant details?
CO530E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson and hon members, the
mid-term review on the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP,
Phase 2 found that the EPWP and its objectives are still relevant
and that the design of this programme is appropriate for its
purpose. So, the participants and stakeholders of the programme were
very positive about the opportunities for work, the assets created
and the services provided through the EPWP.
So, the study found that the EPWP is highly relevant to the
expressed needs of the poor and the unemployed in South Africa. The
National Development Plan, NDP, emphasises the relevance of the EPWP
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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by stating that in order for South Africa to reduce unemployment,
the EPWP should reach a million full-time equivalent jobs by 2015
and 2 million by 2019. The NDP further notes the positive social and
psychological effects that the EPWP has on the unemployed people
living in poverty in terms of the income earned, the rebuilding of
the independence and the restoration of the dignity.
According to the latest statistics of Statistics SA, Labour Market
Dynamics, a total of 5,3 million people were unemployed in the first
quarter of 2015. Of those unemployed, 85% were black South Africans.
Fifty eight per cent of them that are 2,5 million of them did not
complete secondary education. This is the target population from
where the EPWP draws its participants. So, the statistics
demonstrate the need for the EPWP and its relevance in alleviating
poverty and creating work opportunities to the many unemployed and
the unskilled South Africans.
So, the national Department of Works conducts periodic evaluation
studies to determine the effectiveness, efficiency and the impact of
this programme in the lives of the participants and communities.
This includes evaluating work done by participants, time spent on
the work and the impact of these activities.
Lastly, the department has implemented the EPWP web-based reporting
system with the details of projects, expenditure and participants
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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employed in the programme. This system allows for monitoring of the
work done and duration spent by the participants in the programme.
Moreover, on the biannual basis, the EPWP conducts what we call the
Data Quality Assessment to verify and validate the information
reported to the EPWP Programme Reporting Systems. Other monitoring
and verification mechanisms include side visits, provincial steering
committee meetings and sector meetings. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr J M MTHETHWA: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, we note that
among the main objectives of the EPWP are job creation and skills
training. In our experience, it has proven that in areas where the
locals have received technical skills training the quality of
workmanship and the speed in terms of the delivery of the projects
is very good. My question is: Did the department have a plan in
place to make our municipalities to submit reports regularly? I am
asking this question because some of the municipalities did not
submit the reports and that resulted in the permanent loss of
statistics, as we know that reporting is done through Internet?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson to the hon Mthethwa,
it is a fact that in some instances there is under-reporting and we
have realised that. We are not sure if there will be any overreporting, however there is under-reporting. In some instances, it
is a fact that some of the reports in some municipalities are of a
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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poor quality. In fact the basis of an issue which has been raised by
the audit is that the information which has been coming from the
municipalities is not qualitative. And, as the national Department
of Public Works, we have been punished by the auditors although we
are not the culprits. We have taken a discussion together with the
municipalities on insisting on proper reporting.
First, we send our people to the municipalities to train them.
However remember, hon Nyambose, these are spheres of government
therefore you cannot impose as this is a constitutional arrangement.
You can make recommendations, it depends on the co-operation. Some
are co-operating. In fact, last week in the Minmec, some were
suggesting that if there are those who are not complying in terms of
giving the information, they should be punished by not giving them
the next grant. However, somebody said, it is not those officials
you are punishing because these programmes are going to the poor
people. So, it is a catch-22 situation. That is why we have decided
that we will have to try work through the Department of Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs and go down to those
municipalities who are not able to give us qualitative reports and
work with them. It is a real issue that you are raising. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, the last time
we met, the hon Minister made a commitment on an issue that I have
always been raising, that the EPWP is infested by partisanship where
a person gets the job on the basis of holding or rather being in
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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possession of a political party membership card. I even gave the
Minister the details of one incident and the Minister committed on
checking that. I just want to find out if the Minister did check and
if yes, has there been an improvement? I am asking this because that
which I gave to the Minister is something tangible. I just want to
find out whether the Minister has followed that up and if yes, are
there any improvements? This is for the purpose of ensuring that
people are employed on the basis of the objectives of the programme
and not on somebody‘s ideological position. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Khawula, your concerns are
genuine. We have said, regardless of who is ruling, all the parties
are guilty of this conduct. If you come to Cape Town for instance,
the issue of the DA using this thing to recruit has been a serious
problem, even in the IFP areas this has been a serious issue and ...
[Laughter.] ... so is the ruling party. It has been a serious
problem. And sometimes there have been even interparty squabbles on
this particular problem. It is across the parties. However, when we
address these problems, we do it in a structured way through Minmec
- the structure formed by Ministers and the MECs. But we also go to
the municipalities and talk to them in terms of the recruitment
procedures that they should follow. We have warned a number of them
that if they persist on these issues we are going to be forced to
withdraw the grants.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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However the issue remains, you cannot just come and impose on
another sphere of government. We have consistently raised this
matter in all our public meetings but it keeps on coming when
dealing with this particular matter. However, I think I will be able
to see what follow up has been made by the officials especially the
unit and - because there are certain municipalities that we said
they must focus on - if they have been able to come up with a report
in relation to this municipality which you mentioned. I will then be
able to give you that answer. Thank you.
Mr S G THOBEJANE: Hon Chairperson, I think, Deputy ... I am sorry,
Minister, we should not allow this matter to be politicised because
... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Kgoši [King], he is the
Minister and not a Deputy Minister.
Mr S G THOBEJANE: That is what I have said. I started by saying,
Deputy and after apologising, I then said, Minister. Alright. Thank
you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, King.
Mr S G THOBEJANE: Plus one minute because ... [Laughter.]
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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Hon Minister, what I was saying is that for the purpose of achieving
the intended plan of government we should avoid politicising the
programmes. From where you are sitting, I am not sure whether there
are any possibilities for you to play an oversight role - I said
this even during our last Question Time – whereby you would develop
a mechanism which will enable you, through the Public Finance
Management Act, to say, ―We are giving out this money, and we cannot
be give out money and go away. We give out money and continue to
monitor whether the execution of the plan is in accordance to our
goals. Because, as you have mentioned, people on the ground are
doing all what they are doing so that at the ultimate end they can
come back and say, ―The EPWP is not working.‖ The intention of the
EPWP, hon Minister, I want to believe is to address issues that are
affecting the poor people on the ground. Can‘t we have a mechanism
that would enable you to conduct a closer monitoring than what it is
now? Thank you, very much.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon House Chair, how I wish that our
interpretation of the Constitution could remain the same, so that
whenever there are problems we allow a structure from the higher
level to intervene. The problem is that we become very political
when we deal with these issues. We entrench our positions and become
very territorial. I think you are right, you cannot keep on pumping
money saying that it is a grant. You need to make a follow-up on
that particular grant. I think there need to be some common
interpretation that as we plough the resources we must be able to
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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follow them. I think if we want our system of governance to succeed
then there must be co-ordination, working together and giving
support to one another. And there must be no territories because
once there are territories, it means there is a problem. I think
that is the spirit which the Members of Parliament, MPs, must move
with especially when they come from the provinces to the national.
Even if we, as MPs, approach the municipalities doing oversight,
that must be the understanding. The people should not understand
these different levels as territories which are untouchable by
others and so on. Otherwise, that means chaos because the national
government plans and pulls together the resources but the
implementers are on the ground. Therefore the two sectors must talk
to each other. Thank you.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, I am a proud
member of the ANC. I joined this movement as a very young activist
... [Interjections.] It is a preamble to my question. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, please put your
question. You have got only two minutes to do that.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: I did not join the ANC when I was old. Now,
South Africa is faced with the triple challenge of unemployment,
inequality and poverty. Now when the ANC-led government pursues a
particular direction to address these issues, prophets of doom would
come with their own analysis of what unemployment is and how it
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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should be addressed? My question to the Minister is ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Motlashuping, order!
Order, hon Motlashuping! Hon Motlashuping, please take your seat!
Please take your seat.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon House Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon House Chair, my point of order is: The rules allow
for questions to be asked, however, with due respect every time the
hon member gets up he sings a song about the ANC. Can you ask him
that instead of giving a political speech he just go direct to the
question so that the Minister can answer. [Laughter.][16:32:49]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon member! I did not
even hear what the hon Essack was saying. Hon Essack, can you please
repeat yourself, and please speak to the mic so that I can hear you.
Mr F ESSACK: Absolutely. Thank you for the opportunity. Hon
Chairperson, can I be protected.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, what is your
point of order?
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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Mr F ESSACK: My point of order, hon Chairperson is: Every time the
hon member gets up he tells a long story about the ANC instead of
just asking the question to the Minister. Can you just ask him to
address his question to the Minister so that the Minister can reply
instead of giving us a long political rhetoric? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. Hon Essack. Order,
hon Jihad. Hon Essack, you are the one who is out of order. That is
not a point of order. [Applause.] Continue, hon Motlashuping but
please put your question.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Yes, I will. A traitor and a hero are born in
the same house.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, put your
question.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: This was a member of the ANC who betrayed the
organisation and went to the DA. Now, hon Minister, I am just
asking, is this wonderful programme in terms of your analysis
providing ... And I am not reading; nobody prepared me because the
ANC is capable. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Leave them out, hon
Motlashuping, please! I see two hands.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 79 of 159
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, no, let me finish my question, Chair.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Motlashuping, take your
seat. Hon Hatting, please take your seat. Take your seat I did not
recognise you. I will start with the hon member Essack and then come
to you. Hon Essack.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members!
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chair, with absolute due respect, I do not mean to
derail the House, you are in control and I respect that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I will be happy if you
cannot do that.
Mr F ESSACK: With due respect hon Chair, I would ask you to ask the
hon member to withdraw the statement or the suggestion he made that
I was a member of the ANC. Can you ask him to withdraw because that
is absolutely false and he is now misleading the country as a whole?
Please ask him to withdraw a false statement because there is no
evidence whatsoever!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, I have heard
you, please take your seat. Hon Motlashuping, the hon Essack, as he
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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puts it, was never a member of the ANC and please desist from doing
that. [Interjections.] Alright, before you continue, I said I will
give the hon member Hattingh a chance. Hon Hattingh.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, you may know that on my previous
occupation I was a pharmacist and now I am very concerned about our
health here. I smell a strong smell of alcohol; perhaps the air
conditioning must be checked. [Laughter.] I think there is something
wrong with the air conditioning, I smell alcohol here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. Thank you, hon
Hatting, we will check that. Continue, hon member.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Minister, what I wanted to ask is whether
you can confirm that we are providing efficient and effective ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, you did not
listen to me. [Interjections.] I asked him to desist from doing that
and that is a ruling. I will never change that. Please take you
seat. Take your seat. [Interjections.]
Hon Essack, hon Essack, you promised me that you are not going to
derail the House. So, what you are doing now is the opposite.
[Interjections.]
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, with due respect ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I asked him to stop doing
that.
Mr F ESSACK: With due respect, hon Chair I have no intentions of
derailing your House. I am asking you to ask the hon member to
withdraw the false statement. That is all that I am asking. If I am
derailing the House, I apologise. Let the hon member withdraw a
false statement.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, I repeat, I have
ruled on the matter, let us continue. Hon Motlashuping, please put
your question.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Yes, hon Minister, what I wanted to ask is that
... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. And I think this
will be for the last time. Hon Julius is on his feet. Hon Essack.
Oh, hon Julius, my apologies.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon House Chair, I just need to set a record ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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Mr J W W JULIUS: ... in terms of your ruling, because you know that
all rulings that you make in this House become a rule, it means from
now on any false statement made in this House will become a rule.
This is . [Interjections.] So, even if I can make a false statement
against any member now it will become a rule.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You are now repeating
yourself. I am waiting for you to take your seat because you have
already put your point across. I want to respond. Can I respond
before you come in? [Interjections.] Let me respond. Let me respond,
hon Essack. You know very well that if you are not satisfied ...
[Interjections.]
Hon Julius, my apologies. Hon Essack, you know very well that if you
are not satisfied, you have to complain in writing. Please do that.
Hon Jihad.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Chairperson, thank you very much for the
opportunity. At times it is hard for people to stomach challenges. I
was just saying can you ensure that we progress without these
unnecessary frivolous points of orders Chairperson, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright. Thank you very
much, that is what I have just done. Hon Essack, please. Hon
Motlashuping, can you please put your question. [Interjections.]
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 83 of 159
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: The only mistake that I have done is that ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Motlashuping please, do
not repeat that.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: I am a proud member of the ANC. Hon Minister,
do you think that this programme is providing an efficient and
effective service delivery to the community of South Africa at
large? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Overall ... [Interjections.]
Mr C HATTINGH: I do not know whether we can get an investigation?
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Hattingh ...
[Interjections.] Let us allow the Minister to respond. We will take
care of that.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Overall, hon member, we think that
this programme is effective. However, it is not as efficient as we
would like it to be. We have been talking about the challenges here.
These are the challenges that we have to deal with. However, 80% of
what is contained in the programme is appreciated by the communities
who are also the beneficiaries in the various municipalities. I can
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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even tell you, when the members of the main opposition party were
campaigning they marched to Luthuli House demanding the fulltime
jobs. However, immediately they were told that the EPWP would bring
7 million jobs above the existing 5 million they appreciated it.
However, they speak in double tongues when they are politicking. So,
everybody is appreciating it. Thank you.
Expenditure on Nkandla residence
276. Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Public
Works:
(a) What is his department‘s budget and spending on the Nkandla
Presidential residence in view of the escalating costs during
construction
(details
furnished)
department plan to spend this budget?
and
(b)
how
does
his
CO542E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson, there is no spending
on the Nkandla Presidential Residence except for an amount of
R10 611,89 which was incurred recently as a result of the work done
to conduct the maintenance on the VIP Guard House. Any maintenance
work on state-owned properties is drawn from the planned and the
day-to-day maintenance budget. There is no specific budget the
President‘s private residence is getting. Therefore, the maintenance
to the state domestic facilities used by SAPS at Nkandla will be
provided for, from either the planned or day-to-day maintenance
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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budget which cater for most departmental projects and not any
specific project. That is the response to this question.
However, I might further say, with regard to the work done to the
residences of former the Presidents and Deputy Presidents, there are
currently security reports that are being reviewed by the InterDepartmental Security Committee. These reports include all current
and former Presidents and Deputy Presidents. Our Department of
Public Works, DPW Projects and Professional Services are doing
costing reports and these will then be sent to the InterDepartmental Security Committee for consideration. Upon approval, it
is then that the DPW will resume the process of maintaining or
replacing security measures at the residences of the affected
esteemed and imminent former public office bearers. Therefore, we
don‘t do anything unless it is informed by the Security Cluster.
Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, hon Minister. Hon Minister, you‘ll agree
with me that this matter is stuck with us for the rest of our lives
because the hon President will be a former President one day. There
will be a need for plans like you are saying there are plans in
place for servicing former Presidents. Now, this is what I want to
know: In the plans of the department, what will happen in terms of
spending, to the nonsecurity features that were judged to have been
put in this residence wrongly and thus, being the wrong benefit? In
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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your plans as the department, what do you have going forward? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Sorry Chair. What are our plans for
the nonsecurity plans? We don‘t have any plans for the nonsecurity
features. However, there are plans for the other assets of the other
departments and we will be informed by those particular departments
because the assets are theirs. We are talking about clinics and
others. Those departments will tell us how to use those things. All
the others ... I think we all know what the Public Protector had
ruled in relation to those. The President has to pay for those
because they were not seen as security features. Therefore, we don‘t
have plans for that. Thank you.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Minister, based on the subject of Nkandla and the
fact that it is recognised as a National Key Point, my question is
then: Has the property been evaluated for rates and taxes, and on
what value is how much being paid every month to the local
municipality? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon member, that is not in the mandate
of the Department of Public Works. Thank you.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Minister, who is paying the bill on rates and
taxes, and services consumption on a monthly basis? Thank you
Chairperson.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Repeat your question as the
Minister did not get what you wanted to say. He wants to check who
is footing the bill.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Minister, I was asking obviously about the
monthly services consumption, electricity and water, and also the
rates and taxes. Who is responsible for that? Is your department
paying for that? Thank you, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Where, in the Department?
Are you referring to the department?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Department of Public Works.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Certainly! You go to the Ministerial
Handbook. For those who are using their private homes we don‘t pay
that. Those are private homes. However, what we do if we have put
the personnel of the department in some of the assets like
electricity, we will have to do the calculation of those who are the
officials of the other departments and that should be paid. We claim
it from the various departments only in relation to those assets of
the other departments and not the private homestead.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Wana!
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 88 of 159
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, on appoint of order: The Minister
has not answered my question. I wanted to know whether the
Department of Public Works actually pays a certain amount on a
monthly basis. That was my question. I want a simple yes or no.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I allowed you because you
were the fifth person.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson, I thought I was clear
in my response. I have said that we will not pay for any private ...
[Interjections.] ... because you want me to answer it the way ...
[Interjections.] No, I am not going to do that. I am not going to
answer it the way you want it. I am going to give an answer as I
understand the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let us avoid the dialogue,
hon Terblanche. There is a point of order. Hon Wana, please take
your seat. Hon members, you are making a lot of noise, please!
Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, on a point of order: The hon Minister is not
supposed to directly address the member or point at him with his
finger.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, if you address
the hon member, address the hon member through the Table of the
Chair. Thank you, hon Hattingh.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 89 of 159
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: I apologise, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Apology accepted.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: However, I am clear that I have
answered that question. If we have to maintain our assets and the
personnel from the different departments, we pay and claim from the
different departments but not for private use. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I think it is loud and clear
now.
Capacity building/skills development programmes
267. Mr S G Mthimunye (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of Public
Works:
Whether his department has any plans for (a) capacity building
and (b) skills development programmes for the enhancement of
efficiency;
details?
if
not,
why
not;
if
so,
what
are
the
relevant
CO533E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: The Department of Public Works has
plans for capacity building and skills development. The skills
development and capacity building programme are treated as one
programme as follows: the Department of Public works is implementing
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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capacity building and skills development programmes that are aimed
at enhancing efficiency. The programmes are aligned to the Council
for the Built Environment Skills Intervention Pipeline. The skills
pipeline is divided into three strategies, namely: The push
strategy, the intermediate strategy and the pull strategy.
Our pull strategy is aimed at promoting and enhancing the learning
of mathematics in physical science at high school level to ensure
adequate tutoring of learners from disadvantaged backgrounds who
want to pursue careers in the built environment area. The schools
are allocated, enrolled and selected from the disadvantaged areas,
townships, rural and informal settlements. The Department of Public
Works awards bursaries to Grade 12 learners that are admitted to
various universities to pursue studies towards built environment.
There are a number of schools where we are doing this particular
programme. At the end of the second quarter of 2016-17 we had
awarded about 163 bursaries to students who are enrolled for built
environment studies at tertiary institutions.
In terms of the intermediate strategy, the department is
implementing what we call as the young professionals programme with
the aim of offering young people from disadvantaged communities,
both from urban and rural areas, opportunities to undergo structured
mentorship programme leading to professional registration with
relevant statutory professional councils.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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The youth professionals programme is in the following areas:
Engineering, civil, electrical and mechanical, quantity surveying,
architectural services, landscape architectural construction and
project management, project evaluation and town planning. At the end
of 2016-17 quarter in October, the Department of Public Works had
1 359 beneficiaries participating in the skills development
programme in all these areas, young professionals, management
training, artisan trainees, intense school programme, technical
learnership and bursary holders.
The last one is what we call as the pull strategy which ensures the
retention of scare skills with the Department of Public Works to
continue the mentorship programme in order to register more black
professionals.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Ngiyazibongela kuwe Sihlalo, nakuwe thish‘omkhulu,
anginawo umbuzo. [I thank you, Chairperson, and you principal, but I
do not have a question.]
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, thank hon Minister for your response,
however, one would like to get further details in terms of the
criteria for your selection of students. What criteria do you use
for the selection and also where exactly are these schools. I just
want to hear if my district is amongst the schools that have
benefited from this programme. Also the placement once students have
completed, do they get placed for employment. Thank you.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 92 of 159
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: The Selection Criteria, we normally
say that it is the students from the disadvantaged families and
areas. We have this programme where we chose in those schools, if I
remember from the top of my head, we have a lot of kids from Vhembe,
Giyani, Sekhukhune, Lusikisiki, Kimberly and so on. So, we just pick
up from those particular high schools but very interestingly, we
start that programme at Grade 10 supply them with extra tuition and
most of them when they graduate at Grade 12, those kids pass with a
minimum of 80%. One of the girls who topped this thing did not have
parents and was staying with her grandmother and had seven
distinctions from Mbizana. [Applause.] She is here now at the
University of Cape Town, UCT, doing her first year in engineering.
What we do is that there must be confirmed acceptance to enrol for
the built environment or property studies preferably at the
traditional universities. If the students are already enrolled then
they must have performed more than 60%. All those we are taking are
more than 80% and even 655 on physics and mathematics. The areas
where they go to, in fact if I were to mention, we take them to all
the different universities of South Africa, UCT, University of
Pretoria, Cape Peninsula University of Technology, Tshwane, Wits,
University of KwaZulu –Natal, Stellenbosch, North West University in
Potchefstroom, University of Johannesburg, Walter Sisulu in Free
State, central University of Technology and King Sabatha Tvet, they
are all in these particular institutions in different fields such as
engineering and so on, construction management, property studies,
architecture, landscape architecture, quantity surveying, town
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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planning and horticulture. We cater mainly for these whom we are
nursing in the different schools in terms of our programme. Our
belief, as you can hear now that it is a teacher speaking about
skills, [Laughter.] is that you must grow them when they are young.
You must grow them because you are not going to get the best maths
graduates if you have not tempered with them and come up with a
programme at a high school level and you do not start at Grade 12
that is why we are starting at Grade 10.
Chairperson, just for information purposes, our own bursary caters
for tuition fees, accommodation, books, stationery, project
materials, meals and allowances. In fact it is to the maximum of
R130 000 per annum because at UCT, the fees are around that, whilst
they range in other institutions. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, we are not
going to allow you to answer Question 272 because the hon member is
not in the House and also he did not make an arrangement with us. We
will move straight to Question 268.
Adherence to measures
268. Ms M C Dikgale (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister of Public
Works:
2 NOVEMBER 2016
(1)
PAGE: 94 of 159
What steps has his department taken in pursuit of adherence
to (a) contain costs, (b) cut waste, (c) combat fraud and
corruption, (d) renegotiate all leases on properties and
equipment
(details
furnished)
and
(e)
ensure
value
for
money;
(2)
whether any progressive results have been yielded in this
regard; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details?
CO534E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: In terms of containing costs following
the National Treasury‘s instruction number one of 2013-14, the
Department of Public Works started implementing cost containing
measures since then, the National Treasury has also issued
subsequent instructions, the last being instruction number three
issued on 20 September 2016. Pursuant to this, the department has
issued circulars relating to various identified, including travel
for cost containment and compliance to be enforced.
On the issue of cutting waste, departmental officials are
continuously urged and reminded to use water and electricity
prudently in order to save and lower the utility cost for the
department. Fitting of the energy saving measures has taken place in
the buildings accommodating the Department of Public Works as well
as client departments. That programme is continuing and is not yet
complete.
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On combating fraud and corruption the Department of Public Works has
taken the following steps amongst others to combat fraud and
corruption: A national road show coupled with media briefings have
taken place to alert suppliers of the scourge of fraudulent order
scams because there are order scams that people just circulate and
other people fall into these scams without even checking with us.
The department of Public works has also developed comprehensive
fraud prevention strategies as a result of the expressed commitment
of the department to fight fraud and corruption. It is aligned with
the Public Service Anti-Corruption Strategy which is championed by
the department of Public Service and Administration.
The strategy is based on four key components, namely: Prevention
which means training and awareness, risk management, policies and
procedures. Secondly, detections that is whistle-blowing, reporting
mechanisms and internal audit. The last one is investigation and
resolution. So, renegotiating leases on properties and equipment, as
a department we received a list dispensation from the national
Treasury which determine that rentals should be market related and
escalated rates should not exceed 6%. This dispensation has allowed
the department to review existing leases at competitive rates. In
some instances you will find that we have been paying 45% above the
market. This is what is coming historically, by the way, I need to
emphasise this, corruption knows no colour and both black and white
landlords have been involved in some of these things. You will
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remember that property is still a very close thing in terms of the
past. Who is dominating there? SO, corruption knows no colour.
to ensure the value of money apart from the process of benchmarking
rentals to ensure that the department is getting value for money,
the department has also started ensuring that contracts entered into
are scrutinised thoroughly to ensure fairness and balance. Moreover,
term contracts are entered into for facilities management to ensure
that the Department of Public Works is receiving competitive rates
and reduces the high costs of procuring under emergence.
Two, yes positive results have been yielded. The expenditure on air
travel highlights a decrease in the number of transactions due to
different airlines being utilised on a competitive price basis. The
expenditure on vehicle hire has also yielded savings as a result of
officials now being restricted to using class B vehicles. Imagine
this, when you have about six or seven officials coming to Cape Town
for a particular meeting, sleeping in a hotel and then having
different cars. Now, once you force them into one or two cars, then
you are cutting a lot of costs. Catering expenses for internal
meetings, workshops, training sessions for meetings attended by
officials only, trainers, consultants contracted to the department
has been reduced significantly. Whilst catering may only be provided
for extended engagement but it must be approved by the delegated
authority. This Minister of Small Businesses will kill you about
that because ask a question, where do the small businesses get these
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contracts because if you kill them it means that you are also
killing businesses and employment for them. That is her position and
it is coincidental that she is seated next to me. [Laughter.] Thank
you.
Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Minister, thank you for the response.
Ngisacela ukubuza, ngiyaqaphela nje ukuthi ngenxa yesimo
sobandlululo nomlando la siphuma khona, esikhathini esiningi
amahhovisi omnyango wakho asemadolobheni ngoba yilapho kukhona
izakhiwo ezingasetshenziswa ukuze kuqedelwe lezi zivumelwano
zokuqashisa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[I have a question, I have noticed that due to apartheid and the
history of where we are coming from, in most cases your department‘s
offices are in urban areas because that is where the buildings that
can be used to do the lease agreements are.]
I do not know if there are any lease agreements ...
... ezindaweni zasemalokishini kanye nasezindaweni zamakhosi ngoba
leyonto idala ukuthi kuhlomule laba ababekade bevele behlomula bese
kuthi abantu abamnyama abanazo mhlawumbe izakhiwo ezindaweni
ezikahle ngaphansi kwezindawo zamakhosi nasemalokishini, bangakwazi
ukungena ukuze bahlomule kulezi zivumelwano zokuqasha njengoba
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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eshilo uNgqongqoshe ukuthi ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph
follows.)
[... in the locations and in the rural areas because this only
benefits those who have already been benefitting and the black
people who have buildings that are in good condition but which are
in the rural areas and the locations cannot benefit in these lease
agreements as the Minister had said ...]
... the issue of property is still very closed. How are we going to
open it up such that the previously disadvantaged also begin to
benefit? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Let me try and put it properly. This
is the crime of apartheid spatial development. Those who are still
defending apartheid inherited privileges must think twice because
services and points of services as you say are good in towns, not
even in townships. They are good in towns and who is there? But in
the previously disadvantaged we don‘t have that. We have started a
programme called precinct development. We want to build small
precincts, in the small dorpies and even in the townships. Remember,
even when there is an office for the Department of Home Affairs in
these rural towns, it‘s a small dilapidated house of somebody where
the department is paying about R200 000 to R300 000 a month. So,
there is a unit we called the precinct development where we want to
take the offices exactly in these areas.
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We are saying now services must go to the people, instead of the
people all of them converging into the bigger towns. The poor are
the ones who are spending more in order to get those services, but
the rich are next to those services. How I wish that all political
parties can understand that, not to defend the privileges of the
past, but it‘s a long road. It‘s a big plan which we must say take
these things to the townships and the rural areas. I know that Home
Affairs and Social Development are sitting on us, wanting their
offices out there not and not in the cities. Thank you.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, through you to the hon Minister, I
think the taxpayer is very excited about the fact that you would be
cutting expenditure, looking at fraud and that you would be
reviewing the leases. However, apparently there are over 2 000
buildings empty and underutilised being leased by your department.
If we look at the global positioning system, GPS, co-ordinates of
these 200 of 2 000 empty underutilised buildings are actually at the
bottom of the sea.
My question to you therefore Minister is: What is the cost of these
more than 2 000 underutilised buildings - costing the department in
terms of rates and taxes and municipal services? What will your
department be doing to terminate this excessive and abusive
expenditure of state resources? Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: First, with due respect, this
sensation that the co-ordinates - some of them, are showing the
buildings under the sea was asked last year. We explained to the
people who were asking that question. In fact, it was hon member
from the DA. In fact, we said to them its nonsense what they are
talking about because there will never be any building under the
sea. They had interpreted the information which had been incorrectly
given. I can be honest and say it‘s very technical even for me, but
our officials came and tried to interpret this particular
information. In fact, it was the wrong application of that
particular formula to come to such a conclusion. There is nothing
like that. [Interjections.]
Now, let me come back to this. We had indicated that Public Works
deals with 95 000 buildings and we are talking about 30 000 land
parcels. We are constructing a register. That register, at some
stage when there was a talk of this thing, was at around 95%. It
means we had been able to locate all our properties what they were
doing and so on. But there is still a lot to be done in terms of
reconciliation and so on.
Remember, you are talking about a property portfolio which is 10
times bigger than Growthpoint Properties. Growthpoint is talking
about 5 000 properties, as a private company. But ours, it‘s so
huge. It was not going to be easy that you have everything perfect.
Concerning the issue of the rates and taxes, there are discussions
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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now. We have put an interministerial committee, IMC, which involves
the National Treasury, Co-operative Governance and Traditional
Affairs, Cogta, and Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. It also
involves Public Works in provinces and certain municipalities to
deal with this issue of the rates and taxes, but I must mention this
thing. I might be going off now. This issue of the rates and taxes,
it‘s not just simply the national department‘s owing – it is also
about the right invoices which must come from the municipalities.
The issue of the evaluation is a very critical issue in relation to
this particular matter. So, it is not just a simple task which we
think that it is because of the national department. We are dealing
with that issue. We know what we owe; we know what the other
departments owe and there is a movement towards resolving this
particular matter. We are having a Cabinet memorandum, which we have
sent to the government - governance and administration cluster
dealing with this particular matter. But, it is still going to be a
long time because the key thing is the invoicing from the
municipalities where there seems to be some capacity, especially
capacity questions in the smaller municipalities. However, we are
working collaboratively with all the spheres of government to deal
with this particular matter.
And also, there are properties which have been built, only to find
that those properties are not ours. They belong to other spheres of
government. Fortunately, the asset register has become a game
changer in the whole process. Thank you.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I am now going to allow the
hon member Hattingh to put in his follow-up question, but before
that hon Hattingh I want to confirm that ... [Inaudible.]
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I must say I haven‘t smell the ethyl
alcohol lately
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, hon member. If ever
you have a problem with another member, please the Chief Whip is
around. You can go to the Chief Whip. You cannot discuss the hon
member with me.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Is the member a pharmacist?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me allow you to take
your seat. I see the hon member is standing, she is on her feet.
What is your problem?
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, just in response to the Minister‘s
answers ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Oh! No, no.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: He didn‘t answer my question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Engelbrecht, you cannot
respond to the Minister. I gave you a chance and we were all here
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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when the Minister was responding to your question. [Interjections.]
Please take your seat. Take your seat, hon member.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: He doesn‘t know. Obviously, he doesn‘t know how
many millions have been wasted ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Take your seat. Take your
seat, hon member. Thank you very much. Hon Hatting?
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I would like to thank the Minister for his
department‘s attempts to curb corruption and the way they are doing
it to combat corruption and also fraud. I would like to know, in the
department‘s pursuance to cut fraud: Could the Minister, perhaps,
indicate if steps have been taken to ensure that the tender system
in the department becomes transparent and corruption free? If so,
just give us a brief indication of what has been done. Thank you,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: We just follow the prescripts of the
Public Finance Management Act to deal with the procurement very
transparent. That‘s what we do. No, no that‘s what we do and
Ministers cannot even intervene in that process. If Ministers
intervene, they will be showing interest. All we do is to follow the
prescripts of the Public Finance Management Act as they are. What we
have also done ... [Interjections.]
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Do not listen to her, hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: The prescripts of the Public Finance
Management Act are very clear. You have to advertise and advertise
in the national newspapers because it must be competitive. You must
set up the relevant committees, different committees and so on.
Those are the processes which must just be followed.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Value for money.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Exactly. We do exactly that - the
value for money.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order, hon Nthebe.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: In fact, that is why we have charged
people when those prescripts were not followed. When there are
scandals in terms of the implementation of the various programmes.
We have even set up a risk and management branch in the department,
which deals with all these particular issues we are talking about so
that we can prevent. But if it happens - it slips through, because
corruption can be very sophisticated. These are leakages. If it
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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leaks we are able to deal with that very, very quickly. These are
the processes which we are following to deal with that.
You will also appreciate three to four years ago, there were many
scandals which were emerging due to proper prescripts not followed.
You haven‘t heard more about those recently. It doesn‘t mean that is
not going to happen because crooks are always very sophisticated,
trying to be ahead of the systems. We have put the right systems now
and we think that those systems are very, very helpful.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon
Minister. I am now going to give a chance to hon Terblanche. Hon
Wana, you are late, mama. You will try next time. Hon Terblanche?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, we really appreciate, especially the
taxpayers will appreciate the savings that the Minister and his
Department of Public Works were, obviously, able to bring about.
That brings me to a question. There is a standing request, if not an
instruction from Treasury that government needs to cut down on the
use of consultants. I am just wondering whether the Minister can
indicate to us how many or what percentage of new projects is Public
Works is executing? Why is the planning and the oversight
constructions have been done by the in-house specialists? Thank you,
Chairperson.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It deals with the costs, hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: In relation to this question, I just
have to be honest because of hundreds of the projects which we are
running. I cannot be able to tell you the exact number, but I can be
able to write that down. Remember, the issue of the consultants on
the construction projects is inbuilt. It is there; it‘s part of the
requirements that some of the things are not going to be done
without those consultants. They are not consultants who do full-time
work for the people but I will be able to give you the exact answer
where we are using those particular consultants.
Remember, the built environment specialist whom we are trying to
grow now in the department when I was talking about the bursaries.
Those who were there in the past ... in fact, top engineers today
who are private, civil and electrical engineers were trained in the
Public Service. Most of them left. They opened private companies and
come back to the department as consultants. In fact, it‘s an irony
that today those who built a system of the government through
employing people in the government are arguing for leaner government
while we are arguing for a big government with the right technical
skills. It‘s like today, most of the people who are the products of
the public schooling system all over the world, all of a sudden are
arguing that children should go into the private schooling when they
are the products of the public schooling system.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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It is the same with the built environment professionals today who
are triumphing in the private sector; they were trained in Public
Works – the old Public Works. That is why we are trying to revive
even our own workshops, but some people argue for lean, mean
government – privatise this and privatise that and so on and so
forth. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much,
Minister. Order, hon members! Hon Minister, for now I can give you a
break because you are still going to take care of transport
questions as you have received an apology that the hon Minister of
Transport is not going to be in the House, but you will act on
behalf of the Minister.
Support from big businesses
258. Mr J M Mthethwa (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked
the Minister of
Small Business Development:
How are big businesses partnering and cooperating in supporting
small businesses and cooperatives (details furnished)?
CO522E
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chair, I thank the hon
Mthethwa for the question.
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The Department of Small Business Development has made an effort to
engage the private sector to open their value chains for small
enterprises and co-operatives in different sectors. These
engagements with the private sector have revealed that the sector is
keen to partner with government towards supporting the growth and
competitiveness of small enterprises and co-operatives.
However, challenges are evident especially where a part contribution
from government is needed due to limited financial resources.
We have a few partnerships, hon member, which I will list in just a
second, but I do want to indicate, hon members, that, over the past
two years that I have been in office, my eyes have been opened much
wider to the challenges which are faced by our small and medium
enterprises, particularly black youth, women and people living with
disabilities. My experience, hon members, is that the economic
structure of South Africa, as it stands today, has made it very
difficult for small, medium and micro-sized enterprises, SMMEs —
even those who have been in it for a while — to enter this space.
Circumstances and the way our economy is structured make it very
difficult for them to participate.
I think that, for the two years I have been in office, hon members,
I have come to the conclusion that we dealt with political apartheid
in the past but we have still not dealt with economic apartheid in
the manner in which we are supposed to. The reason we are unable to
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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do that — despite the fact that government has put plans in place
through the Nine-Point Plan which, by the way, also indicates that
unlocking the potential for SMMEs and co-operatives is high on the
agenda. But, until such time that we really look collectively, by
the way ... because it cannot be the responsibility of government
alone to try and create an environment conducive for the
participation of SMMEs. It is also dependent on all of us taking
collective decisions.
I am happy, hon members, that, at least over the two years that we
have been in the office, we have placed the issue of SMMEs high on
the agenda, including the participation of the private sector, which
...
By the way, there is also an issue of the private sector where SMMEs
are supposed to get an opportunity within the value chain of the big
businesses. That doesn‘t happen. It is always government that has to
come and push them to do so. We are convinced that with the
memoranda of understanding that we have with different big
businesses such as Pick n Pay and South African Breweries ... We
hope that these examples will also be exemplary to others so that
they realise that this is something that they need to do.
In conclusion, I would also like to say that my belief is that the
ANC, in particular, has been a buffer between the rich and the poor.
It is time that the rich, the wealthy and those that sit with their
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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millions realise that it cannot be the responsibility of government
alone to really pull the majority of our people who were never in
the mainstream economy ... What we are doing as a department is
almost like a drop in the ocean if we look at inclusion and its
politics. I thank you.
Mr J M MTHETHWA: Mageba! Ndabezitha! Indeed, in your department
there is a change. There is a lot of effort that you have made. We
congratulate you on that.
But, hon Minister, most of the small business and co-operative are
struggling to get involved with big companies. There are companies
who do not want to partner with those small businesses and cooperatives. My question is, did we have a plan in place to make
those who are doing that comply so that the economy of this country
can be uplifted? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much for
the follow-up question.
Yes, I think I would like to start with the fact that, overall your
black economic empowerment programmes have been in the forefront in
trying to ensure that the participation of black women, people
living with disabilities and youth are included. But, I would hasten
to say that, even with that plan of black economic empowerment
including broad-based black economic empowerment itself there have
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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been challenges because, again, the government was forced into a
situation of legislation instead of us partnering automatically. So
it became very clear that, unless government takes the
responsibility and legislates and regulates ... which, by the way
... over-legislation and over-regulation also have their own
challenges.
But, in our view, we think that what the government has done in
putting those systems in place is enabling. It does have challenges.
The Department of Small Business Development does not necessarily
believe that we should only focus on that legislation and the
regulation. It means that, politically, we need to find buy-in. We
also need to have South Africans collectively mobilised and
organised politically to understand that the future depends on small
and medium enterprises. Unless we support them and hold their hands,
especially the ones that were not able to participate in the past
... Even if you give them the loans ...
We‘ve got Sefa, which is our Small Enterprise Finance Agency and
Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, which is a non-financial
one. My experience over the two years is that there are more of them
going to Sefa than to Seda. This clearly indicates to us that what
they need most is the financial ability to buy the machinery which
they have to use.
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If we can also look at the fact that the economy of South Africa
grew a little bit ... And when you look at which side grew, it shows
that it was through manufacturing. The manufacturing sector is where
you find that the majority of our people are not participating. So,
the department is looking into how we can make sure that we do that.
But has been exciting also for the department is that the SA Revenue
Service, Sars, this year announced that 18 000 new SMMEs were able
to register for tax and pay tax. That is interesting.
That can be exciting, but there are other questions around it. Who
are these SMMEs? Where are these SMMEs? In what sectors are these
SMMEs? But more than anything else for us is break it down to the
minutest detail. How many of them are women? How many of them are
youth? How many of them are black? Because we can be excited over
the fact that 18 000 registered, only to find out that many of them
are still the same old ... who were able to do so in the past.
Our department is also happy with the fact that, between government
and the private sector, there are structures which have been created
by the Presidency in the Presidency. Commissions which are supposed
to be able to assist us in looking at the role of small and medium
enterprises not only from a point of view of economic growth, but
simply because we understand and we see the facts and figures as
government that the more people we have who are in the SMMEs ... The
facts are that most people who are employed today are employed by
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SMMEs than big business. The structures that we are putting in
place, we are hoping that ... because we have been in office for two
and a half years ... We think that the systems and the programmes
that we have put in place are going to assist us then.
But lastly ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Conclude, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: May I conclude by saying
that one of the challenges we see is the support that we give and
the packages we give to support SMMEs ... There is poor coordination between the three spheres of government. People behave as
if there are three different governments when there is actually one
government with three spheres. I think that this House also has a
responsibility of ensuring that it holds the provinces and local
structures accountable.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Hon Minister, thank you very much for that
discussion on SMMEs. We are all fully aware that the only way that
the economy can grow is if we stimulate our SMMEs. However, it is
not always just about financial funding. There is a huge lack of
skills colleges, places teaching businesses how to run businesses,
and physical hands on training of artisans. We really believe there
is a huge gap in terms of that aspect of SMMEs. Could you please
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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just explain to us how you will be attempting to address that
challenge? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: We fully agree with the
hon member that it‘s not always about financial resources. Yes, I
did indicate that the experience of two years shows that many of the
SMMEs, particular black SMMEs and those in townships, really
struggle from a financial point of view. The department has
identified the issue of training which took us to having a
discussion with Technical and Vocational Education and Training,
Tvet, colleges. In all 9 provinces, we are engaging with the Tvet
colleges to make sure that those colleges introduce the issues of
small and medium enterprise training and also entrepreneurship, as
entrepreneurship is indicated as the lowest in South Africa compared
to other countries.
Secondly, through Seda, we have training programmes which are in all
9 provinces. And remember that the offices of Seda are also in all 9
provinces. We would like to see that expanding because the
challenges in relation to people who are in the townships and people
who are in the rural areas ... It is very difficult for them to
travel to the Seda offices where they can get the assistance that we
offer.
We are looking at what other alternatives we have. This includes the
introduction of entrepreneurship in schools and in high schools and
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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also includes looking at the people who are providing the training
because there are a lot of organisations that provide the training.
What is a little bit of a problem is that some of them put the
packages together because they want to access government money
instead of really doing proper training. So we will have to validate
those who are currently doing the training.
Let me also say there are enterprise development projects and
programmes that are run by the private sector. Unfortunately, many
of them are merely a tick in the box. But we want to partner with
the private sector and with those who are doing the kind of training
that we think is relevant and useful to the felt needs of small and
medium enterprises. We are convinced that if we go into partnership
and work with them, we will be able to deal with this huge gap that
you are talking about. I thank you.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, I think the Minister read my mind.
In terms of diversification, Minister, the automobile sector is
still lily white. As we roll out the black industrialist programme,
how do we integrate that so that we see the small business
leveraging out of that programme. The good example of that is in the
Gauteng [Inaudible.] which is called the Automotive Industry
Development Centre which is owned by the Gauteng provincial
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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government. If that could be replicated in other provinces I think
it would make a good positive dent in the economy.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chair, we fully agree
with that. We are looking at especially the successful centres to
see how we can have those in other provinces. I think what is also
important here is that the department realises and recognises that
it would not really be possible for us to reach out to almost
everybody. One also has to consider the fact that we have human
resource and financial constraints.
We are working with the provinces. We have had meetings with
Gauteng, Free State and with the Mpumalanga provinces because we
want to say to the provinces that their plans for support for SMMEs
must include proper co-ordination between us and themselves.
I must say that we are getting a very positive response regarding
streamlining the programmes that we have with provinces.
I would also like to say that we have a special programme called the
National Gazelles programme. This programme identifies the 200 topnotch performing SMMEs across various sectors, including the
automobile sector.
We think that the National Gazelles programme would be a feeder into
the black industrialist programme because these programmes have
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support from both government and the private sector. The first 40
were already selected this year and that it is getting all the
necessary support that I mentioned — from financial support to
technical support to hand holding support.
What we are looking at is bringing all those successful SMMEs on
board — irrespective or regardless of their colour — because we
think that they are the ones that can support us in this. The more
we have training centres and hubs like these, the better for SMMEs.
But the department on its own cannot run those hubs. Many of those
hubs had been set up by the private sector and we are in a few
working together with them. Thank you.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, it‘s always great to engage such a
knowledgeable ANC-deployed Minister. [Interjections.] Minister, I am
a firm believer that there will never be freedom, fairness and
opportunity as others are advocating. In the absence ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Nthebe, please take your
seat. Yes, hon Faber?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, please! Freedom, fairness and opportunity
is DA. He doesn‘t know what he is talking about, please! Thank you.
[Interjections.] [Laughter.]
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 118 of 159
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber, that is not a
point of order, sir. Take your seat.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, I want to repeat, I am a firm believer that
there will never be freedom, fairness and opportunity in the absence
of a deliberate and decisive intervention, particularly in the space
that you are in Minister. [Interjections.]
I am saying this because, when we talk about the SMMEs, the
environment is littered with examples. The Asian Tigers, for
instance, grow their economy to over 90% based on SMMEs and cooperatives.
In this case, Minister, are we able to look into the matter that I
think that economic growth will continue to be a mirage if we do not
intervene. The issue of market penetration ... Will this partnership
and whatever it is that we are addressing here also seek to open up
market penetration and level the playing field so that our SMMEs and
co-operatives can begin to enter that space so that freedom,
fairness and opportunity can become a reality? Don‘t tell somebody
when you are 100 meters down the race line that there is freedom
when you are already down the line and you don‘t assist. Thank you,
Chair. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon members! Hon
members, order!
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 119 of 159
Over to you, hon Minister. [Interjections.]
Hon members ... Hon Mthimunye, hon Faber, hon Julius, please, don‘t
drown the House. Let‘s give the Minister a chance to speak.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much
Chairperson. Maybe I need to repeat again what I said earlier on.
Unless we deal with the structure of the economy of South Africa,
our interventions will find it very difficult to bear fruit within a
short space of time. I believe that this government of the ANC is
recognising that and not pointing a finger, but saying, what do we
do about it. The fact that a Department of Small Business
Development was formed out of a unit that existed within the
Department of Trade and Industry, is a firm recognition of the need
for us to develop interventions.
May I also quickly say that, since we came into office, we took all
those programs that were under the Department of Trade and Industry
and evaluated them against current challenges and what we need to
do. The department has completed that process and has rationalised
its programmes so that we don‘t have too many programmes. We are
comfortable with the fact that our new programmes will not deplete
our resources.
However, having said that, I did indicate earlier on that our
challenge as far as market penetration is concerned is the
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 120 of 159
monopolistic approach of the South African economy. Unless we begin
to break that down ... Unless we begin ... I will make a simple
example. Malls, for instance, are being built all over the show.
Show me one place where you can find small and medium enterprises
who are either black, women or youth owned who have space in those
markets to show what they have to sell.
Show me a shop in all these big shops that you are talking about
where you can buy this dress that I am wearing. None! None of those
shops will have this. This is what you find in a small little corner
shop or in the home of a woman who is trying to make a living.
We believe that we need to change the structure of the economy. We
need to break this monopoly. There are a few who have come on board.
I can mention the example of SA Breweries. They have given an
opportunity to women — women in maize — to plant. But even though
they came on board, they expected us to put up something. We had to
put up R20 million and they put up another R20 million to ensure
that these women are supported. These women had their first maize
harvest in July. This has since taken off within SA Breweries.
If we can get more of such partnerships, others will see these
partnerships are real and that we are not looking at hiding but are
trying to find ways of being realistic and honest. The apartheid
economic structure has to go. We have to do it as government. It is
our responsibility, but we need to be met, on the other hand, by
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 121 of 159
those people who have lots of financial resources and are surrounded
by experience. I thank you.
Township entrepreneur development/advancement strategy
266. Mr
E
R
Makue
(Gauteng:
ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
Small
Business Development:
(1)
Whether
the
Government
has
developed
a
township
entrepreneur development and advancement strategy to ensure
the
coordination
of
entrepreneurial
activities
and
initiatives in the townships (details furnished); if not,
why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2)
what progress has been made in enhancing the coordination
of entrepreneurial activities in the townships to generate
broader economic benefits for the country?
CO531E
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much,
Chairperson for the question. Again, the Department of Small
Business Development has not developed a township entrepreneurship
development ... [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Hon Rayi, hon Julius,
no, no; continue member.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 122 of 159
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: The department has not
developed a township entrepreneur development and advancement
strategy that ensures co-ordination of the entrepreneurial activity
initiatives in the township.
However, the department has been intervening through a number of
programmes that benefit township entrepreneurs and businesses, as I
even indicated earlier on, that we are trying to pull our resources
to make sure that at national, provincial and local level we are
supportive of entrepreneurs and small businesses.
The department has prioritised township and rural areas in the
implementation of all its financial and non-financial support
programmes as part of main streaming to these prioritised areas. To
this end, the department has targeted 50% of all its interventions
to the township and 30% for rural.
This, you will see in the programme that we have developed, but this
you will also see in the expenditure in those programmes that we are
talking about. The department is also implementing the National
Informal Business Upliftment Strategy, NIBUS, which benefits a
considerable number of township and rural enterprises.
The primary purpose of this NIBUS as we call it is to enhance the
ability of enterprises in the informal economy to benefit from
support programmes by our department, the government at large and
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 123 of 159
the private sector. We have a special programme of training those in
the informal sector through this NIBUS programme that we are talking
about.
We work together with the retail seta to train informal businesses
but we do not only do the training and give the certificate, we move
to a point of saying if you have done the general training in
business, and this is your specific area, then we will buy the
equipment.
If it means we must buy an industrial stove or if it means we must
buy a machine, you know these dryers for hair salons and all that.
We have to do that because those are the things that make it
difficult for our people. Many at times, we find them buying very
small machinery that breaks very easily, whereas if you buy the
industrial machines then you can see the sustainability.
With the aggregated target of 80% support for township and rural
areas, it is expected that there will be improvement in the
development and sustainability of entrepreneurial activities and
enterprise in the targeted areas.
Collaborations are being developed with provinces to enhance the
working township and rural areas. There has been an engagement with
the local economic development forums. This is where the biggest
problem is. You have got local economic development offices that are
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 124 of 159
not properly resourced; also some of the people that work in these
offices do not really have the adequate training.
We are engaging at the local municipality to say, your local
economic development office should be the first point of call where
small and medium enterprises come to. So with that co-ordinated
effort, we think that we will see progress very soon to make sure
that we can see the impact of what we are doing. Thank you.
Mr E MAKUE: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you Minister for what has
been a very helpful response, which is also linked to the earlier
response that you gave. It becomes apparent that if we are serious
to deal with the Nine-Point Plan and in particular, the challenges
of poverty, inequality and unemployment, that‘s a small business
sector that needs to be focused on.
I‘m worried therefore, Chairperson, when the Minister said that
there is human resources and financial constraints within the
Department of Small Business and Development, and also mentions some
other inhibiting factors.
Now, with us having the unique position as Members of the NCOP being
delegated by our provinces and working closely with the
municipalities, the question then still remains, how can we - if you
could help Minister - assist in ensuring that indeed there is a
strategy that is properly formulated so that we can maximise the
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 125 of 159
opportunities of the small business sector in our economy. Thank
you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you very much,
Chairperson. I think what is very exciting on our side, as we were
rationalising the programmes that we have, we decided that one of
the programmes that we need to have would be the one of Small,
Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs co-operative designing support
programmes, which also must have a research element so that when we
begin to develop exactly the strategy that you are talking about it
is also informed by empirical evidence, that‘s the first thing.
The second thing is that we also have decided that we need to go
into partnership with the academic institutions and the private
sector to help us in the development of these strategies that you
are talking about, and we are looking at the fact that we do not
have enough resources. However there are resources that are sitting
either in the private sector or in this institution.
To that effect, we have had meetings with the Gordon Institute of
Business, Unisa, including the University of the Western Cape here.
We have sat down with them to say, how we can be able to assist each
other so that we develop programmes - not programmes necessarily,
but we develop strategies that can be able to respond.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 126 of 159
The issue of human resource, obviously, we believe that it is not a
problem of just the Department of Small Business Development alone.
It is a general problem that the country is facing. What I think is
important here is the fact that as small and medium enterprises, we
see the opportunities, even within the different departments of
government. That is why, for instance, the Minister of Public Works
talked about cutting here and cutting there when he was responding
to these whole issues.
The fact of the matter is that many of the black suppliers have now
found themselves in a space where they are no longer supplying what
they used to supply in government; and it is almost like cutting our
noses to spite our faces even though we do understand that we are in
a financial constraint, but we still do believe that the SMMEs are
going to find themselves being short-changed if this space is being
closed for them.
I think on this issue, when I said there must be co-ordination
between the three spheres of government, we believe there is
sometimes a lot of wastage in between when there is no proper coordination. I believe with co-ordination, we will be able to make
sure that strategies and programmes are aligned in all three spheres
of government. I thank you.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, thank you very much hon
Minister that was your last question. Thank you so much for your
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 127 of 159
detailed response. [Applause.] The hon member Julius was very late
to raise his hand. You did not raise your hand and I have already
thanked the Minister and now you are then raising your hand.
[Interjection.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I have been looking. I have
been looking hon Julius. Okay, all right. Order hon members!
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chair, on a point of order, immediately after the
response ... [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon members, order! Hon
member Julius, I did not give you a chance to speak Baba. You just
stand up and take the microphone. Thank you very much, hon Minister.
[Applause.] Hon Minister, hon Minister Zulu, please take your seat
Mam; my apology. The hon Julius wants to raise a Point of Order. I
don‘t know whether it is on the Minister or on whom, tell us, sir.
Mr J W W JULIUS: You will soon know. [Laughter.] But, what I ‗m
trying to say is immediately after the response to the obvious
follow-up question from hon Makue, because it is his question, I
then raised my hand. It would do no harm to take one more question.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 128 of 159
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, thank you. Take your
seat hon Julius. Hon Julius, you know very well that you were late;
immediately after I said to the hon Minister, thank you very much
for that was your last question, you then think of raising your
hand. If I can allow you, even tomorrow you are going to repeat
that. My apology hon Julius the ruling stands. Thank you very much
hon Zulu. [Applause.] Order, hon members!
We were supposed to now take question 279 but there was an
interdepartmental transfer of the question asked by the hon Londt.
The question has been transferred to the Minister of Finance. So hon
Essack, I see you. The other thing, hon members, we are not going to
allow question 253. It is not to be responded in the House because
the hon Vawda is not here and there was no arrangement.
I don‘t know what the excitement today is. People are so excited.
They don‘t even want to listen. Order, hon members! So, we are now
going to move to question 255 asked by the hon G M Manopole to the
Minister. Before I can allow you, hon Minister I see the hon Essack
is standing. What is the problem hon Essack?
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson ... [Interjection.] [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Why are you on your feet?
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 129 of 159
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, with due respect, I mean you are in
control as I said earlier; but in the spirit of democracy. I would
ask you to apply your mind and allow members to interrogate and
engage the Ministers so that South Africans out there can hear what
they have to say. Chairperson, why are you shutting down, so
diplomatically the engagements with the Ministers, and please be
honest? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me be honest with you
hon Essack, that is not a Point of Order. Hon Nxesi continue. Oh!
Now it is hon Khawula. Why are you on your feet hon Khawula? Order
hon members, hon Motlashuping, hon Londt please, let‘s give the hon
Khawula a hearing, over to you, sir.
Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, what has happened to hon Julius really
can happen to all of us. So, maybe the Chairperson needs to clarify
for us when is the right time to put up your hand because hon Julius
put up his hand as soon as the Minister finished, which is, I think,
the right thing to do, but now the hon Chair has ruled.
[Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Okay allow the hon
Khawula to finish what he is saying, hon members.
Mr M KHAWULA: Because the hon Chair has ruled we cannot go back
there but then, when is then the right time?
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 130 of 159
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, thank you very much
hon Khawula for that question. The right time is how you normally do
it. When there is a follow up question, when – no, no I‘m responding
to you now and you are standing up.
Mr B G NTHEBE: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, how we normally do it,
how the hon Julius, normally raise his hand. That‘s how we have to
do that. The hon Makue raised his hand and I tried to check there
was no one who was raising his hand; but immediately after the hon
Minister finished, I also looked around, but when I was saying thank
you, then he decided to raise his hand. I‘m here I‘m seeing all of
you. Thank you very much. Continue hon Minister.
Rail collision/passenger accidents
255. Ms G M Manopole (Northern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of
Transport:
Whether the Government has quantified the costs paid to victims
of
train
incidents,
particularly
in
rail
collision
and
passenger accidents; if not, why not; if so, (a) what measures
are in place to strengthen rail passenger safety and (b) what
are the further relevant details?
CO519E
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 131 of 159
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (ON BEHALF THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT):
Chair, on behalf of the Minister and Deputy Minister of Transport
who are both outside the country, the response to this question,
because we are working together in the Inter-Ministerial Committee,
IMC, and infrastructure, Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa,
Prasa, has indeed quantified its liability in respect of the
commuter injury claims and as required by the accounting standards.
These are disclosed annual financial statement.
Note 16 on page 86 of the 2014 Financial Statement reflects a
provision of R197 180 000 for the ending 2015 up to R162 823 000 in
2014. In terms of the measures taken to strengthen the rail
passengers‘ safety, Prasa has embarked on various safety management
and intervention programmes to turn around and improve the provision
of our service.
With regard to rail infrastructure, various rehabilitation
programmes are underway to specifically address the realignment of
the track and the pathway signalling telecoms and other electrical
equipments.
As for the rolling stock, the business has put in place the
intervention programme to aggressively attend to the asset
conditioning as part of the maintenance programme. Accordingly, the
upgrade of the depot machinery and equipment as well as the
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 132 of 159
component refurbishment and the upgrading of the train radios
feature prominently in this particular programme.
The Prasa rail measures to strengthen the passengers‘ safety, the
operational risk management, Prasa manages risks through detailed
Risk Registers and Risk Committees in each of the operating regions
as well as in all departments dealing with the train activities,
operations engineering and projects.
On the government management, the Board of Control of Prasa oversees
the safety and the environmental strategies and practices through
the quarterly Safety Help and Environmental Committees, SHECs,
meetings. On Operational Safety Management, Prasa rail manages
operational safety through the Safety Management System coordinated
by a dedicated nominated manager as required by the Rail Safety Act.
This Safety Management System, SMS, is a requirement of the
operating permit issued by the Rail Safety Regulator. The SMS
include the regular operational safety meetings, monitoring of the
safety standards, practises, strategies and interventions,
compliance for operating safety permits and interaction with the
various Rail Safety Regulator, RSR. The safety interface agreements
with Transnet and all external parties involved in the operational
environment, which are the contractors, suppliers and the third
parties.
On the safety system, it covers the following management areas:
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 133 of 159
The Risk Assessment Management; Railway Safety; Occurrence
Management; Safety Policy Statement; Safety Procedures; Human factor
Management, which is test and training; and Medical Surveillance.
Train working environment and general operating instructions of
Prasa manages these safety operational rules and operating
instructions through the updated TWR and the GI for all operating
conditions, refresher training and regular safety campaigns.
On the rail modernisation, which is the last point and technology
induction, Prasa‘s modernisation programme includes upgrading of the
signalling new trains and communication system with the state-ofthe-art applications. The signalling modernisation includes
replacing old and obsolete signalling with modern automated signals
and controls while the new train specifications include future
migration to automated train protections with the full modernisation
of the signal system. So, the Prasa modernisation programme also
includes the full protection of the corridors with corridor fencing
and wailing and technology Closed-circuit television, CCTV,
applications to protect the rail operational environment from
illegal trespassing and dangerous behaviour.
In short ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Conclude hon Minister.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 134 of 159
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi): (ON BEHALF OF THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT): In short, we are modernising as government
in relation to this area of safety.
Ms G M MANOPOLE: Chair, thank you hon Minister for the comprehensive
response you gave. I indeed see that there are measures in place to
address the safety features. Mine is with regard to ... I am taking
a risk; I know that the Minister is acting but I think that he will
be able to respond to that. Taking into consideration that there are
measures like this Assessment Management and Safety Management plans
in place.
The other factors are that how do the relationship of the department
with stakeholders and the community with regard to campaigns to
raise it to the community able cable theft, which is affecting the
communication? We can upgrade the system but the issues of cable
theft, if not raised to the community level. I just want to check
whether these measures taking place will include the campaigns of
going to the community to raise an awareness, to assist and work
with the SA Police Service, SAPS, and also work with Eskom with
regard to cable theft to raise awareness? How is it important that
the community also ensure that they assist? For them, if you are
not, this cable theft is ongoing. It is going to affect their safety
and their convenience of going to work. It is also important for
them to play a role in this. I just want to find that the campaign
is holding. Thank you.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 135 of 159
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi): (ON BEHALF OF THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT): This has been a very hot issue not just in
relation to the Department of Transport, but even in the whole PICC
when we were discussing the infrastructure. The damage it has done.
In fact cable theft is tantamount to sabotage. It cannot just be an
issue of government dealing with it legally, it is clear that it
should be a matter which is going to need various stakeholders,
which needs business, the communities and so on. That is why we were
saying with business we must be able to identify even in terms of
the legislation which was introduced by Minister Patel. We were
saying kill the market where this is being sold because the market
is mainly going overseas and going through our own ports. We were
saying therefore, a multipronged strategy to deal with this
particular matter but also conscientising our communities about the
danger this is doing in destroying our communities.
Indeed, there are programmes where we are trying to interact with
the communities; it is just that we have not been able to have the
details here. I think those can still be supplied by the department
but it is a very important comment.
Mr C HATTINGH: House Chair, we were in the previous Minister who
took us back to the 1800 earlier today. The first major railway
accident in South Africa happened on 19 February 1896, massive
explosion with a dynamite train. Unfortunately the Minister is not
here but I think he would have loved to hear that.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 136 of 159
I would like know, in view of the increasing number of rail
accidents, and serious rail accidents, whether the responsible
Minister will consider the appointment of external independent
investigators to investigate rail accidents? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi): (ON BEHALF OF THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT): Consultants, no. Obviously, within the
departmental structures, within government, you will always have the
expertise to do that. But if you don‘t have the expertise, you
automatically go outside and that is logical. If needs be, you need
the expertise from outside because you don‘t have them inside to do
the investigations. It can‘t just be predetermined that you will
always rely on the people outside. It depends on the capacity and on
the scale of a problem at that particular moment.
Ms T WANA: House Chair, my question is: What is the plan of the
department in terms of extending the rail passenger transport,
looking at various accidents that are happening? Last week, there
was a DMJ Transport accident, that week there was a Translux
accident. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi): (ON BEHALF OF THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT): It is a fact that in our roads we are faced
with a lot of congestion, congestion in relation to both normal
passenger cars and even goods trucks. I think we have a lot of them
and hence we have such congestion. The issue of expanding rail is
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 137 of 159
within that particular context. You might know that there has been
some agreement with some of the countries to look into this
particular question. Those who have been specialising in this
particular area and there are agreements with various countries like
China but they have not yet been taken to operational level, there
are still going to be further discussions at departmental level to
look at the real strategy of expansion in relation to the rail.
Clearly, in the plans of the department, long term planning, there
is thinking along this particular. There are already particular
areas which I would not be able to remember now, which have already
been earmarked that they should be considered first. For instance,
one of them, and I think it relates to some question which is
coming, there has been this issue about the debate of Moloto
Corridor - the issue of expanding the road. As an add-on, the issue
of rail between Moloto and Pretoria where there is very heavy
traffic. So, there are those issues which, maybe I can request the
Ministry to do some submissions in terms of the detailed plans if
they are there.
Contract awarded without tender
249. Mr
W
F
Faber
(Northern
Cape:
DA)
asked
the
Minister
of
Transport:
(1)
What were the reasons for (a) awarding a certain company
(name furnished) a R90 million contract without a tender
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 138 of 159
and (b) paying R30 million upfront for a project that was
put on hold;
(2)
whether her department has taken any actions following the
Public Protector‘s findings that the Passenger Rail Agency
of South Africa has routinely broken (a) the Public Finance
Management Act, 1999 (Act 1 of 1999), and (b) other related
laws and regulations in awarding contracts; if not, why
not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO499E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (on behalf of the Minister of
Transport): Chairprson, the supply chain management, SCM, policy of
Prasa allows for the procuring of services through the confinement
of where the needs of the business preclude the use of a competitive
bidding process.
The reasons that were provided for the confinement was that, the
nature of the security service required necessitate the application
of a need to know principle, and that an open tender process will
defeat the whole purpose of undercover operation, that it was
prudent that the company recommended be appointed on a confinement
due to the sensitive nature of the surreptitious security operations
which were to be provided.
Although this reasoning was accepted by the group executive officer,
it was not provided for in the SCM policy relied upon when the
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 139 of 159
confinement was approved. This is one of the contracts that are
subject to investigation that were recommended by the Public
Protector in her report titled, ―Derailed‖.
In terms of paying the R30 million upfront for the project that was
put on hold, the upfront payment that was made on the 25th April
2015 is the amount of R4 680 425, 60. This amount was for the
following items of the agreement that was signed on the 18th of May
2015: Team mobilisation and project initiation, Orientation of the
team on security challenges, Prasa corporate plan, Prasa operational
environment, modernisation of ICT, security challenges, security
constraints, scope scale and definition, systems requirement and
data restructuring, Prasa security strategy review of the physical
standards and guidelines, review of the security operations
procedures. The outcome of the investigations underway will inform
Prasa on how to proceed with this particular contrary.
On the second part of the question, whether the department has taken
any actions following the Public Protector‘s findings; the Minister
was made aware of the allegations of maladministration relating to
the financial mismanagement to the tender irregularities and
irregular appointments in July 2015, when the office of the AuditorGeneral released its report dated 31 July 2015. This was before the
Public Protector‘s report was finalised.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 140 of 159
The Minister in her capacity as a shareholder on behalf of
government has considered the report of the Auditor-General and
engaged the board of Prasa on the issues raised in the report. So
the board of Prasa resolved to institute a forensic investigation on
various issues of irregular fruitless and wasteful expenditure
incurred by Prasa and all irregular and unlawful activities related
thereto.
This scope was naturally enhanced by the findings in the derailed
report. The Werkman‘s Attorney conducted the forensic investigation
as part of the remedial actions and National Treasury was instructed
through the office of the chief procurement officer to assist in the
investigation on the matter of the irregular fruitless and wasteful
expenditure.
Other matters are being reviewed by Prasa internal audit department
where the irregular fruitless and wasteful expenditure is less than
R10 million. So the outcome of the forensic audit is in the process
of being implemented as some disciplinary steps are conducted
against certain officials who are found to have committed the
transgression. Thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, unfortunately, I did not read the whole
355 pages of State of Capture report yet. As most probably I would
be able to read something into that as well. However, I think the
answers that I got from the Minister is not exactly what I was
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 141 of 159
looking for, as I wanted to know what the Minister will do as it was
very clear by the Public Protector that the Public Finance
Management Act was broken, it was bridged. It is easy to come here
and say that there is an investigation. The Public Protector said it
clearly that this was wrong. I want to know, Minister, what are you
going to do about that?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (on behalf of the Minister of
Transport): Chairperson, you see, hon member, if there are a number
of investigations, it is proper that you allow everything to be
available so that you don‘t deal with issues in a piecemeal fashion.
That is the logic.
However, the Minister has said, some of the issues are coming from
that particular report, some of the issues have been referred to the
board. And remember, boards have judiciary duties. The Minister
doesn‘t just jump the board. The Minister is not operational. The
board all it does is the oversight and demand that certain actions
must be implemented and it is very clear from the answer that there
are processes which have been put in place. If there are people who
have to answer, they must answer and people being charged, put into
disciplinary actions. They are being put into those processes. The
Minister must be patient and wait for those who are charged to do
that.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 142 of 159
For that matter, even the board doesn‘t just charge, the board
relies on the operational staff which is the chief executive. We
must be very careful. The mistakes which some of us have made is to
rush things even when we have facts, we end up losing on procedural
issues.
You must know one thing, the Labour Relations Act. I am talking as a
practitioner for almost more than 20 years as a trade unionist. In
many instances, I can tell you, we won cases against government
because they were rushing. Even where our members were wrong because
on procedures, they were found to be wanting although they had a
very strong case. We must follow those procedures and not to rush.
Follow the procedural process that the Minister is talking about
here. Not that he has neglected what has been, in fact, what has
been recommended by the Public Protector is being followed. But
refer it to the appropriate structures to action.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, hon Minister, your comment was
noted, however one must remember that Prasa is a state owned entity.
A state owned entity is funded by taxpayer‘s money and the Public
Finance Management Act, is very clear. It says ―the confinement to
unsolicited bid can only be awarded under very specific
circumstances‖. One of them is that if it is an emergency, another
one is, if it‘s a unique product which nobody else holds, and if
there is lack of competitors.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
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The Public Finance Management Act, says nothing about the need to
know contract. If we go on the Public Finance Management Act, which
I can assume is correct and valid. Then Prasa has certainly
defrauded millions from taxpayers. The Public Protector was very
clear in her comments and her recommendations. She said that she
gave a damning report on Prasa on its financial affairs and
routinely breaking the Public Finance Management Act, and her
recommendation was that all contracts, every single contract of
Prasa has to be investigated. So my question to you, hon Minister,
is, has that been done and if not why not?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you hon Engelbrecht.
Order, order hon members. Allow the Minister to respond.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: (on behalf of the Minister of
Transport): Chairperson, Prasa is a state-owned entity funded by the
taxpayer‘s money. Who has denied that? No one has denied that. In
fact, the question which you are asking is the same question which
was asked by the previous colleague. But you are trying to put it in
a different way to say – and I‘m still saying, the Minister who has
an oversight will instruct the appropriate structures. The Minister
would not jump those structures. If the Minister is doing that he
would be interfering. It is funny because it has always been the DA
telling Ministers who are interfering in this and that, not
respecting what is in the legislation.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 144 of 159
According to this legislation the board is responsible. I have said
in my initial response, the Minister has instructed the board on all
the various issues which have been raised. It‘s as simple as that.
The Minister has instructed them, she gives them time she expects a
response by a particular time. Thank you.
Investment in rail infrastructure/services
256. Mr
B
G
Nthebe
(North
West:
ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
Transport:
What progress has South Africa made in expanding investment in
rail infrastructure and services, in light of some of the
country‘s rail infrastructure that has reached its lifespan,
leading to reliability and enormous costs in repairs?
CO520E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (STANDING FOR THE MINISTER OF
TRANSPORT): Well, in addressing the decades of under investment in
the commuter rail infrastructure, the Passenger Rail Agency of SA,
Prasa, has embarked on a significant capital investment programme
focused on the modernisation of the infrastructure and the rolling
stock. Over the next 10 years, Prasa will be investing in excess of
R170 billion in the capital investment programme and Prasa aims to
position passenger rail transport as the backbone and the mode of
choice of public transport in South Africa.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 145 of 159
The strategy is carried through the implementation of the capital
investment programme which includes infrastructure, the rolling
stock development and modernisation. The implementation thereof is
through some of the following programmes: the signalling and
telecommunications; modernisation of the rolling stock and
infrastructure; new train acquisitions; station modernisation; depo
modernisation; station upgrades and improvements.
The understanding we have is that - and it links to the question
which was asked by the hon member from the DA as the follow-up
question to the previous one - more than 2 million passengers are
transported daily by Prasa. The reality is that the expectations of
the consistent and quality service by these passengers still remains
a challenge in most corridors like most infrastructure
revitalisation projects. They are multiple and these are mega
projects, not just annual small projects. They need a lot of
technical planning for that particular matter. Therefore, there is a
plan by the Department of Transport through Prasa. Thank you.
Mr B G NTHEBE: No, Chair, I think there is an appreciation from the
Minister‘s response that we cannot begin to deal with the economic
growth without rail infrastructure that is so needed. However, we
also need to remove the burden that is placed on our roads by
Freight, hon Minister.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 146 of 159
I am quite happy because I know that Transnet and Prasa are
beginning to build a lot of skills revolution and infrastructure in
your Koedoespoort centre, where massive trains are being
manufactured internally, and the local content has been done
beneficiation. Therefore, from where we are sitting, we think that
we are coming closer to re-engineering what was done over the years
by 1986 De Villiers Commission. We thank you so much for your
response.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: That was not a question, it was a comment.
Thank you very much.
Taxi recapitalisation programme
275. Mr
M
Khawula
(KwaZulu-Natal:
IFP)
asked
the
Minister
of
Transport:
Whether she will provide an update on her department‘s taxi
recapitalisation programme; if not, why not; if so, (a) when
was it envisaged to be completed and (b)(i) how many undesired
panel vans have been scrapped so far and (ii) how much was the
total compensation cost for this programme in each province?
CO541E
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 147 of 159
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): The question is whether the
Minister will provide an update on department‘s taxi
recapitalisation programme, if not, why not. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi):(ON BEHALF OF THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT): No, no, I am confusing my papers. You are
not supposed to be on the floor. [Laughter.] Relax, hon Julius.
[Laughter.] Oh! It‘s here; it‘s here, madam.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale):Hon Minister, hon Julius is
not in the House.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi):(ON BEHALF OF THE
MINISTER OF TRANSPORT): Chairperson, the taxi recapitalisation
programme called the TRP, it‘s a Cabinet approved programme that
assists the taxi owners with the replacement of the old unsafe taxi
vehicles - replacing them with the new and safety compliant
vehicles.
The taxi owners voluntarily submit their old vehicles for scrapping
and received an amount of just over R82 000 as an incentive to
scrap, which also assist with providing deposit for the purchase of
the new vehicle. They also have the option of scrapping and exiting
the industry, in which case they are required to cede the applicable
operating licences back to the government. The programme has been
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 148 of 159
under implementation since 2006 and was initially approved for the
period of seven years.
The Cabinet later approved the programme to continue until every old
taxi vehicle has been scrapped. So, taxi scrapping has been
instrumental in achieving the objectives of this taxi
recapitalisation programme, which are to improve the commuter safety
and makes South Africa road safer through the upgrade of the taxi
fleet. Recently, the programme has also undergone a review process
to assess the performance so far, and to also look at the ways of
improving the rate of uptake by the industry. The findings of this
review which are currently undergoing a consultation process will be
presented to the Cabinet with the recommendations before the end of
the current financial year, which is 2016-17.
The TRP is approved to process applications for old minibus vehicles
or vehicles that went through a legal and approved conversion
process before the cut-off date of 4 September 2006. Any illegally
converted vehicles are not allowed to operate on our roads. Law
enforcement is required to remove such vehicles and their operating
licences confiscated. So, the programme has scrapped 66 949 old taxi
vehicles as at 30 September 2016. The value of scrapping allowance
is paid per province from inception to 30 September 2016 and is as
follows: Eastern Cape 8 180 at R467 million, Free State 5 158 at
R292 million, Gauteng 14 762 at R870 million; KwaZulu-Natal 7 702 at
R460 million, Limpopo 7 688 at R429 million, Mpumalanga 8 330 at
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 149 of 159
R493 million, Northern Cape 680 at R36 million, North West 7 451 at
R418 million and Western Cape 6 998 at R439 million. The total is
about 66 949 which is R3,9 billion. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, ngibingelele uMhlonishwa ...
[Thank you Chairperson, I greet you Minister ...]
... like the Minister has said. I want to agree, it was a noble
objective to ensure that we try to keep our road safe, so that the
government does not continue spending and putting money into a
bottomless pit. What measures are there to ensure that we don‘t have
vehicles getting paid for more that once, which is tantamount to
corruption? Did the government at the beginning of the programme
ensured that there is an audit that indicates how many of these
vehicles we have in the country.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order, order, hon ...
Order, Order, sir. [Interjections.] Hon ... order!I want to check.
Okay, it‘s not a point of order. You are standing. All right.
Mr M KHAWULA: How many of these vehicles do we have in the country,
so that when we reach the end point, you know even before somebody
can tell you that you have paid all the removal of these unneeded
vehicles on our roads? Did you have measures like that in place so
that you don‘t keep on standing endlessly? Thank you.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 150 of 159
MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: (Mr T W Nxesi): (REPRESENTING THE MINISTER
OF TRANSPORT: Mhlonishwa uKhawula kule ndaba yomageza yalezi zimoto
zabo. Siyabazi-ke thina omageza. Angisho? [Hon Khawula, regarding
the issue of the taxi drivers and their vehicles, we know them.
Isn‘t that so?]
The Ministry has been able to put measures and ways of auditing this
particular information, but the reality is that there would always
be things which are just falling through despite the measures you
might have put in place. However, I am not in the department. I
might request the department to come up with that information to
your satisfaction so that you can be able to assess that, including
the total number of the vehicles in the country which are there.
Remember, that is always a moving target. It‘s very difficult to be
exact about that.
Moloto Road Project
254. Mr E R Makue (Gauteng: ANC) asked the Minister of Transport:
Whether her department will provide plans and time frames for
the completion of the Moloto Road Project; if not, why not; if
so, what are the relevant details?
CO518E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi, on behalf of the
Minister of Transport): Hon Chairperson, we have been battling with
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 151 of 159
this matter at the level of the Presidential Infrastructure Coordinating Commission, PICC. Well, the Mpumalanga and Limpopo
provinces sections of the Moloto Road were incorporated into SA
National Roads Agency, Sanral - that Sanral managed network on 29
July. These were the sections in the province of Limpopo and
Mpumalanga. Gauteng province has elected to retain their portion of
the R573 as a provincial road not to transfer this to the national
road network managed by Sanral.
Gauteng province and Sanral have signed an agreement in November
2015 were Sanral will project manage the project in the construction
on behalf of the province.
So, the upgrading or the capacity and safety improvement as well as
the reduction of the number of the intersection construction of the
services roads will take care a total period of eight to 10 years That‘s 2016 to 2025 - with most of the work done in the period 2017
to 2022.
So, the number of the projects to improve Moloto Road will be
approximately 12. The improvement of the service of the roads and
related work will be 15 projects, and the number of the projects may
vary and are dependent on the various factors that include the
funding available, environmental authorisation and permits, timing
and impacts.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 152 of 159
I must explain this part Chairperson and hon members, with the
current economic challenges, the economy not growing, remember that
even the purse is shrinking, but the issue of funding of this
project becomes an issue.
But I think government is biting the bullet to say, investment in
the infrastructure is necessary despite the constraints, because
when are investing on the infrastructure, you are expecting returns,
in fact, we are trying to stimulate the economy. So, in the area of
the infrastructure, we are biting the bullet despite the constraints
we are having.
So, in summary, the progress to date is as follows: The commencement
of the designs in Gauteng is August 2017, in Limpopo is February
2016, March 2016 in Mpumalanga. The commencement of the
environmental assessments issues is April 2016 in Gauteng. All of
them are in April.
The construction works which have not started yet are estimated to
start in 2017, first package, and so on - in almost all the ... Then
routine road maintenance started in August 2015.
So, well, there are certain challenges that expectations of
opportunities from local labour and local business, but the reality
is that the projects will not be able to provide opportunities for
all. But remember, we are dealing with the rural areas. Once there
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 153 of 159
is a project, there are big expectations. That‘s why the issue of
community facilitation is very important.
It‘s not just technical work. Other people think that is technical
work. Those who are coming from the Eastern Cape will tell you that
some of our projects came to a halt because people were fighting to
say, why you are giving those people and neglecting the local people
in terms of tenders. A project had to come to a standstill for about
three to five months.
So, the issue of social facilitation becomes very important, and
also the timeous environmental regulatory permits from the various
competent authorities.
Remember here, we are talking about provinces and national, not just
province, and those are different authorities also on challenge
encroachment of development into the road reserve, especially in the
informal and illegal traders as well as some residential dwelling.
You know, there is a new feature now. When people hear that
something is going to happen there, they quickly occupy there
because they come and say, we must be bought by government, pick
monies. That‘s why the issue of social facilities is very ... Land
acquisition for additional land required to expand the road is very
important. That‘s why the Expropriation Bill is very important.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 154 of 159
Those who are objecting to the Expropriation Bill must know that
there are objecting to development for the rural people. It‘s nice
to sit here and object, but our people want development, because we
want land, we want to expropriate it for development, not for
ourselves. If we want to build a road, we want to put the electric
pylons, we must get the land. We cant negotiate forever with the
people ...
... besibiza intloko kaloliwe ngomhlaba omncinci. [charching us
exorbitantly for a small piece of land.]
Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, I welcome very much the response and note
that the matter is complex. I would therefore hold onto the
prerogative to raise this matter further with the Department of
Transport, because I serve on the select committee to which the
report ... But I thank the Minister for at least enabling to
understand the complexity. Thank you, Chair.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Hon Minister, thank you for that very brave
effort in trying to explain the Moloto Road. It is the second
biggest road with the biggest amount of volume in this country,
except for the N1, and it is also considered the most dangerous road
in South Africa.
It transports people from the previous Kwandebele area to Pretoria.
We are looking at around about 150 000 transporters per day, and
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 155 of 159
over 600 busses that travel that road. It‘s a narrow road. It‘s a
dangerous road and is full of potholes. [Interjections.] Can I be
protected, Chair, please? I live in that area.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye, order. You
are protected, hon Engelbrecht.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: The number of people that have been killed are
absolutely disastrous and shocking, and the number of people with
long-term disabilities is absolutely horrendous with the huge cost
to the environment and the economy. Now, it has taken this
government 13 years, the very first feasibility study was done in
2003. So, it is taking this government 13 years of empty promises to
sign an agreement ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Hon Mthimunye, order!
Continue hon Engelbrecht. Ask your question, mom.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: ... with China Communication Construction
Company. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order! Hon Jihad, no.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: So, the government has signed an agreement with
China Communication Construction Company for this massive project.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 156 of 159
We are looking at round about R38 billion, currently estimated
value, which will probably increase.
Now, you are absolutely right, hon Minister, our country needs
economy, we need investment in local development. The tragedy is
that this contract is now been signed with the agent dragon, and it
has been known and well documented that the agent companies employ
their own people, use their own suppliers and it‘s a resultant
negative capital outflow. It has been shown that there is a negative
impact on the local trade and commerce, and that the South African
labour will not benefit.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Please ask your question?
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: My question to you therefore Minister is: What
is the extent of the economic deal with this Chinese company, and
how will they benefit and how much will they benefit from this deal
which should be coming to the local South African economy? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi, on behalf of the
Minister of Transport): Well, South Africa has signed a number of
bilateral with the different countries, but whenever we go into
those agreements; we make sure that we do not compromise ourselves
as a country. There is no way that we will allow foreign labour in
whatever project with whatever company to be exported when we do
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 157 of 159
have labour here. We will negotiate. It will only be where we do not
have expertise, and our approach is simple, we must talk about
bringing those people in order to transfer the skills, and once
skills have been transferred to our people, we continue with our
people doing that.
But there is one reality. We are not an island. We must benefit from
the technologies of the other countries. My problem is one, I don‘t
know whether this thing is ideological or what. You talk China,
people scream, you talk the United State, you talk Britain, people
do not scream. [Applause.] What informs it? [Interjections.] No, we
are not hypocrits. When you talk the United State, when you talk
Europe, people do not scream. [Interjections.] You talk China,
people scream. [Interjections.] What we are saying is that whoever
we are entering into an arrangement with, our national interest
comes first. [Applause.]
So, we will make sure that in whatever agreement, we are able to
secure our national interest.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order, hon members!
Hon Julius, hon Jihad! Hon members! Hon members! Hon Pastor! Hon
Rev! Hon Zwane, order! Hon Rayi, order! Order, members. Allow the
Minister to finish.
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 158 of 159
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W Nxesi, on behalf of the
Minister of Transport): The problem is that people ask questions,
you respect them; you listen to them, when you have to respond because truth is painful - and they start screaming at you. That‘s
the problem that hon Julius is having. But that is my response,
Chair. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order, hon members.
Order, hon Julius! Order! Hon members, allow me ... Hon Khawula! Hon
Khawula! I don‘t know what is the excitement today? Allow me hon
members ... Please give me a hearing. Give me a hearing. Thank you
very much for that.
Hon Minister, thank you very much for availing yourself into this
House. That was the last question. You are done. We heard the
details and we are very much thankful. I will encourage the hon
members to continue with their genuine questions, because our hon
Ministers have the inside of everything in their department. Thank
you so much. [Applause.]
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
I would also want to thank the Ministers that availed themselves
earlier on, and I would also want to thank the hon members, those
who were drowning the Minister, and other hon members. Thank you
very much. [Interjections.] You kept the House alive and that is
2 NOVEMBER 2016
PAGE: 159 of 159
democracy. [Applause.] Now, I am going to ask the hon members to
remain standing as the procession leaves the House. This House is
adjourned.
Debate concluded.
The Council adjourned at 18:53.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159
(1)
National Veld and Forest Fire Amendment Bill, 2016, submitted by the Minister of
Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.
Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the
Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources.
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