Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 21 Sep 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
WEDNESDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 15:08.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to
observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the
DA:
That the Council —
(1) debates the contravention of the Government Gazette 23964
dated 18 October 2002 which states that a municipal council
with less than 40 seats are classified as category B
municipalities;
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(2) notes that throughout the country, these category B
municipalities have been contravening the Local Government
Municipal Structures Act 117 of 1998, for many years now, by
appointing chief whips as full time councillors resulting in
unlawful, fruitless and wasteful expenditure of public money.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the
IFP:
That the Council –
(1) debates the alleged abuse and capture of state power by
certain sections of the private sector;
(2) investigates whether this state capture is not linked to
international mafia-type crime syndicates which are already
known to be in operation in other countries around the world;
and
(3) also finds measures that can be put in place to ensure that
key positions in government and state-owned enterprises are
not filled by puppets of these hidden masters whose only aim
is to further the business interests of their masters.
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Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that
on the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of
the UDM:
That the Council –
(1) debates ways of enforcing mining sector and private companies
to pay their former employees in time with speed;
(2) notes that most people who have worked in mines and private
companies in many instances die before they get their pension
fund; and
(3) believes that some of the reasons are because of lack of
information as pension and provident funds are located in
various institutions.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that
on the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of
the ANC:
That the Council debates the response time of ambulance
particularly for Priority Level 1, P1, or critical patients
which continues to result in public outcry and concerns.
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Mr D STOCK: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on behalf of the
ANC:
That the Council –
(1) debates the cost of data in South Africa which has resulted
in a popular campaign for the education for the reduction of
data fees commonly knows as #DataMustFall; and
(2) further notes that South Africa charges are among the highest
prices of data compared to other countries such as India,
Nigeria and as many operators continue the use of data as a
revenue stream.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice
that on the next sitting day of the Council, I shall move on
behalf of the DA:
That the Council –
(1) debates the DA‘s proposed alternative presidential handbook
introduced on Thursday 15 September 2016;
(2) notes that the DA‘s near cost cutting alternative
presidential handbook seeks to address the manifold
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shortcomings of the current Presidential Handbook which has
failed to curtail the President‘s careless and wasteful
spending;
(3) also notes that the DA‘s presidential handbook aims to ensure
that the person who occupies the presidency is not given free
reign with the people‘s money but is held to clear and
precise standards and guidelines as to ensure that public
funds are used to uplift the poor and deliver services;
(4) further notes that the purpose of the alternative
presidential handbook is to ensure appropriate support to the
Presidency and crucial to seek quantifiable limits on that
expenditure; and
(5) acknowledges that restoring trust in the office of the
presidency is desperately needed and the DA‘s alternative
handbook will be a significant step in re-establishing faith.
KING GOODWILL ZWELITHINI CELEBRATES 24 YEARS AS KING
(Draft Resolution)
Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo, egameni leNkatha yeNkululeko, ngiphakamisa
ukuthi:
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Le Ndlu –
(i)
izwakalise ukubonga kwayo ekubongeleni iSilo samaZulu
iNgonyama uGoodwill Zwelithini kaBhekuZulu ngokuba
sesihlalweni sobukhosi iminyaka engama-24 okuyisikhathi
eside ukwedlula zonke izingonyama zakwaZulu ezike zahlala
kulesi sigqiki;
(ii)
uhalalisele uZulu wonkana njengoba kulo nyaka uZulu
uhlanganisa iminyaka engama-200 wabunjwa yinkosi uShaka;
(iii) siphakamise ukuthokoza kwethu kuNdunankulu kaZulu womdabu
uMntwana wakwaPhindangene ngokuba ngudondolo oluhle
kuMdlokombana nakuZulu wonkana;
(iv)
sithi wena ongangezwelakhe ubhejane odla bakayise, bhejane
phuma esiqiwini kade bekuvalele, unwele olude ngasitha, uma
ngangingemZulu ngabe ngiyini. Ngiyabonga.
(Translation of isiZulu motion without notice follows.)
[Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I give notice on behalf of the IFP
that on the next sitting day:
That this House –
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
(i)
PAGE: 7 of 151
appreciates His Majesty, King Goodwill Zwelithini , the son
of Bhekuzulu for being a reigning King for 24 years, which
is the longest time than any Zulu King has been on the
reigns;
(ii) congratulates the Zulu nation as a whole, as this year
marks 200 years since it was established by King Shaka;
(iii) appreciates, the Zulu Traditional Prime Minister, the son
of Phindangene for being a pillar to Mdlokombana [Praise
name.] and to the Zulu nation as a whole;
(iv) we are saying, ongangezwelakhe ubhejane odla bakayise,
bhejane phuma esiqiwini kade bekuvalele [Praise names.]
Long live ngasitha [Praise name.] which ethnic group would
I belong to, if I was not a Zulu. Thank you.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
MDUDUZI (MANDOZA) TSHABALALA
(Motion of Condolence)
Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
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That the Council -
(i)
notes that on Sunday, 18 September 2016, South African
musician Mduduzi Tshabalala, better known as Mandoza,
passed away after a battle with cancer;
(ii)
acknowledges the significant contribution Mandoza made to
South African music through his career as a multi-platinum
status artist;
(iii) also acknowledges the legacy of a man who for years
connected South Africans from all facets and corners of
South Africa with his songs and performances;
(iv)
recalls that Mandoza‘ s hit song released in 2000,
Nkalakatha, instantly made him a household name in South
Africa and shot him to widespread fame; [Laughter] – Can
you translate that into Afrikaans? If you cant, then just
keep quiet - and
(v)
extends its condolences to the family, friends and loved
ones of the acclaimed Kwaito musician, Mduduzi Edmund
Tshabalala, popularly known as Mandoza. I so move. I am
sorry hon Chair, with the interruptions from these people.
This is a motion of condolence.
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Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
MEDICATION DESTROYED IN MPUMALANGA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on
behalf of the DA:
That the Council –
(1)
notes that the MEC for Health in Mpumalanga, Gileon Mashego
be removed as MEC due to his department‘s destruction of
medicines worth R5 million in the last two financial years;
(2)
further notes that these medicines were left unused because
of a shortage of medical officers, pharmacists as well as
storage space;
(3)
notes that MEC Mashego clearly has no interest in attending
to the healthcare needs of the people of Mpumalanga whilst
he enjoys the pecks of an all-inclusive medical aid
provided to him by the state, the people of Mpumalanga
queue for hours only for their medication to expire and be
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destroyed whilst they wait;
(4)
acknowledges that the longer Gillion Mashego stays as MEC
for Health, more people of Mpumalanga will continue to
suffer;
(5)
notes that the DA has visited many facilities around the
province and it is tragic to witness the damage caused by
Mashego‘s administration;
(6)
calls on Premier David Mabuza to stop the cadre deployment
of incapable individuals. I so move.
In light of the objection the motion shall not be proceeded with
and it shall become a notice of a motion.
SOLLY MSIMANGA FIGHTS CURRUPTION IN TSHWANE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on
behalf of the DA:
That the Council –
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(1)
PAGE: 11 of 151
notes that the DA welcomes the attempts of the new mayor of
Tshwane, Solly Msimanga, to root out corruption in the
Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality;
(2)
also notes that the newly elected DA mayor started at home
in his own municipality and found that civil servants names
were on the database of the poor who qualify for services
like free water and electricity as well as exemption from
rates and taxes;
(3)
further notes that the database of the indigents is being
cleaned-up to ensure that the poorest of the poor benefit
and not corrupt cadres;
(4)
acknowledges that the DA applauds the new mayor with his
stance to root out corruption in the Tshwane metropolitan
Municipality. I so move.
In light of the objection the motion shall not be proceeded with
and it shall become a notice of a motion.
?????????
(Draft Resolution)
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Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I am not sure because it is almost
similar to the motion ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Faber, on what point are you rising?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I would like to know, I did not hear
your call if one of the members of the ANC voted against fighting
corruption.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: There
is an objection.
Mr W F FABER: Okay. I just wanted to know.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You
may proceed.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I am not sure because it
is more or less similar to the motion that was read by hon
Hattingh.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES:
Condolences?
Ms L C DLAMINI: Yes.
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: If it
is the same then in terms of the rules I would appreciate that you
just support that motion.
Ms L C DLAMINI: No. I support it... [Interjections.]
Mr A J NYAMBI: On a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Just
take your seat, hon member. There is a point of order.
Mr A J NYAMBI: Thank you Chair, I am checking whether it is
parliamentary for an hon member to make a statement in the House
that he is aware that it is false. Like the hon member said, he
wanted to make sure that you are hearing ANC members supporting
corruption.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: It is
not parliamentary.
Mr A J NYAMBI: That is what he did. Hon Faber said that. He said
he wanted to make sure that ANC members in this Chamber are
supporting corruption.
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I did
not hear that part and I am definitely sure that his mic was not
on ...
UNIDENTIFIED MEMBER: He did.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: ...
and if that is the case ... [Interjections.] No, hon Faber, I am
not giving you an opportunity because of ... [Interjections.]. Hon
members, order! Hon Faber, now because of your proximity with the
hon Dlomo, obviously we would have heard you. I didn‘t hear you.
If then that is the case, please do not do that. Can we continue
with hon Gaehler.
HAWKS BUST COUNTERFEIT GOODS IN BUTTERWORTH
(Draft Resolution)
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on
behalf of the DA:
That the Council –
(1)
notes that on 20 September it was reported that the Hawks
confiscated counterfeit clothing items worth R7.5 million
in Butterworth;
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(2)
PAGE: 15 of 151
further notes that the bust, which is believed to be the
biggest in the Eastern Cape was as a result of a joint
operation between the unit, the tactical response team and
the Department of Home Affairs;
(3)
applauds the team involved for its swift action; and
(4)
condemns the selling of counterfeit clothing which hurt
businesses and their brands.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
SPEEDY RECOVERY OF ARCHBISHOP EMERITUS DESMOND TUTU
(Draft Resolution)
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on
behalf of the ANC:
That the Council –
(1)
notes and welcomes with delight that Archbishop Emeritus
Desmond Tutu is recovering well after being readmitted to
hospital on Saturday due to an infection developing at the
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site of an earlier surgery;
(2)
further notes that he underwent a surgical procedure
earlier this month to address the cause of recurring
infections related to past treatment for prostate cancer;
and
(3)
takes this opportunity to wish Archbishop Tutu a speedy
recovery and good health.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
BIRTHDAY WISHES FOR WINNIE MANDELA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms T K MAMPURU: Mohl Motlatšamodulasetulo, legatong la ANC [Hon
Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC] I hereby move without
notice:
That the Council -
(1)
notes and celebrates the birthday of our veteran and
stalwart, Mama Winnie Mandela, who turns 80 next week on
Monday, 26 September;
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
(2)
PAGE: 17 of 151
further notes that Mama Winnie Mandela remains one of the
living symbols of our fearless resistance against apartheid
rule and gender marginalisation in our country; and
(3)
takes this opportunity to wish Mama Winnie Mandela a joyous
birthday and a happy long life.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
SERVICE DELIVERY PROTESTS IN CAPE TOWN TOWNSHIPS CONDEMNED
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D L XIMBI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on
behalf of the ANC:
That the Council -
(1)
notes the eruption of protests in townships in Cape Town,
as residents continue to vent their frustration about the
slow pace of delivery of services in the townships in the
Western Cape, especially for houses for hostel dwellers;
(2)
further notes that these protests have resulted in
vandalism of public property such as a post office if Langa
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and Metrorail train lines, resulting in thousands of
commuters late for work;
(3)
acknowledges that while recognising the rights of
communities to protest, we condemns the burning and
destruction of public property; and
(4)
calls on our people to exercise their right with due regard
to the rule of law and public property.
The motion is not agreed to.
THUTHUZELA CARE CENTRE’S SERVICE IN WORCESTER COMMENDED
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on
behalf of the DA:
That the Council -
(1)
notes the Thuthuzela Care Centre located at Worcester
General Specialist Hospital as a model of best practice;
(2)
also notes that the Thuthuzela Care Centre is a Sexual
Assault Survivor Centres, acting as a one-stop facility
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that play a critical part in South Africa‘s anti-rape
strategy;
(3)
acknowledges that the centre in Worcester has a full
multiprofessional team and has achieved an 84% conviction
rate;
(4)
further acknowledges that the centre has been announced as
the best centre in South Africa;
(5)
recognises and appreciates the efficient services being
rendered to the people of Worcester and nearby areas; and
(6)
congratulates the management and personnel for their
remarkable achievements.
The motion is not agreed to.
SOUTH AFRICAN PARALYMPICS TEAM CONGRATULATED FOR OUTSTANDING
PERFORMANCE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms T MOTARA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on
behalf of the ANC:
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That the Council -
(1)
notes with utmost pride the performance of the 2016 South
African Paralympics team, bringing home a total of 17
medals from the Rio Games;
(2)
further notes that the outstanding performance of the
Paralympics Team has placed South Africa at number 22 on
the overall Paralympics table in 2016; and
(3)
takes this opportunity to congratulate the team for their
sterling work in raising our national flag.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
AN APPEAL FOR PUBLIC HEALTH INSTITUTIONS TO COMPLY WITH WORKPLACE
SAFETY STANDARDS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms T WANA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice on behalf
of the ANC:
That the Council -
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(1)
PAGE: 21 of 151
notes with utmost concern that inspections carried out by
the Department of Labour at public health care sector
facilities across the country have uncovered shocking
noncompliance when it comes workplace safety and hazardous
biological agents;
(2)
further notes that the results of 407 inspections conducted
in the nine provinces in the public health care sector in
the 2014-15 financial year, showed that only 91 facilities
complied with workplace safety standards and the treatment
of hazardous biological agents while 316 did not comply;
(3)
also notes that the worst performing provinces include my
province, the Eastern Cape at 18%, Gauteng at 9% and
Limpopo at a shocking 0%; and
(4)
takes this opportunity to call on the Minister of Health to
intervene immediately in ensuring that processes and
programmes are put in place to ensure that public health
institutions comply with workplace safety standards,
particularly with the treatment of hazardous biological
agents. Thank you.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
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CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND
JUSTICE - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO THE MTHATHA REMAND DETENTION AND
MTHATHA MEDIUM CORRECTIONAL CENTRE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
CORRECTIONAL SERVICES, MTHATHA EASTERN CAPE
Mr D L XIMBI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the committee undertook an
oversight visit to the Mthatha Remand Detention and Mthatha Medium
Correctional Centre of the Department of Correctional Services in
Mthatha, Eastern Cape, on 9 September 2015. The aim of the
oversight was to: Firstly, determine the levels of overcrowding at
the centre; secondly, the state of the facility; thirdly,
determine the challenges faced by the centre management in its day
to day operations; and lastly, determine the challenges towards
repairing the facility and alleviating the overcrowding at the
facility.
The observations by the delegation: Firstly, a poor state of the
facility and poor maintenance of the facility, the facility was in
a very poor condition with the delegation observing cracks and
broken plaster, exposed plumbing, and damaged windows, leaking
faucets and toilets and general unkempt conditions.
Secondly, overcrowding of sections members observed that 149
inmates share one toilet. Unit 3 was so overcrowded that inmates
were only allowed out for 30 minutes per day.
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Thirdly, banned substances in cells, the delegation visited the
juvenile detention section and observed messy conditions and an
obvious marijuana stench, with one member, finding rolled paper
containing what appeared to be marijuana - intsangu [dagga].
Fourthly, essential broken equipment; the Unit 5 cold room was not
in working order in the kitchen and had been out of service for
months.
Lastly, poor access control and guarding of facility; the access
control system was not operational at the time of the oversight
visit and many of the electrical components in the entire facility
needed to be replaced. The window frames were rusted and needed to
be replaced. The ceilings were in poor condition with many damaged
to such an extent that the rafters were exposed. The delegation
observed that the guard towers were not manned and while the
delegation waited for the centre management to find the guard, he
took quite a while to return to his post.
The recommendations from the committee; the committee requested
the department to supply the committee with the following
information within 14 days after its adoption by the National
Council of Provinces: The department must forward a breakdown of
the posts and the length of time the posts have been vacant; the
department must indicate whether the area manager has been
appointed and whether the security personnel posts were filled;
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the department must indicate in a report the progress made to date
with the upgrading the facility, repair of the reticulation and
sewerage system, the kitchen upgrade and cold room repair; and the
department must supply a breakdown of the prioritised national
projects as identified by the department‘s national facilities
team. Therefore, the Select Committee on Security and Justice,
having considered the report, recommends that the National Council
of Provinces approves the report. Thank you, Chairperson.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
In Favour: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND
JUSTICE - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO DIEPKLOOF POLICE STATION
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, the committee decided to visit this
police station given the internal audit report on the station and
media reports regarding mismanagement which was reported on in the
media in March 2016. The Soweto Cluster within which Diepkloof
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Police Station falls was also involved in the 2015 xenophobic
attacks on foreign shop owners.
Strategies to prevent, contain and manage these types of civil
unrest were also a determining factor in the decision to conduct
oversight over Diepkloof Police Station. The committee determined
the following as key issues to investigate: one, the management of
the station; two, firearms competence; three, disciplinary
hearings; four, regular cell visitation and filling of vacancies.
The following observations were made by the committee during the
sight inspection: one, victim empowerment centre - the centre is
staffed by one female and one male who have been trained by
lifeline as well as one police official and an extra person who
coordinates the centre; two, firearm license office - the firearm
application room is a separate office with four officials on duty
– one sergeant, one clerk and two lieutenants; three, immigration
- South African Police Service continually checks on foreign
nationals and the station has a business against crime community
meeting that provides regular feedback. The Saps also works with
home affairs to ensure that undocumented persons are reported to
home affairs.
In respect of the undesirable business, the station received a
weekly report on the matter. Members were concerned about the high
number of vacancies at the police station. South African Police
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Service reported that there are three officers who are currently
required to redo the firearm competency test and that these
officials have been taken off the street until the completion of
the test.
The fourth observation was a domestic violent register - the
police officials were able to present one register with complaints
and another general register with logs the client detects; five,
holding cells - population limits were set out for each cell and
clearly marked outside each holding cell. The delegation inspected
two cells; one with a family offender alone in the cell with a
sponge mattress, toilet and a shower facility and the other cell
was occupied by an undocumented migrant male. In relation to the
migrant male, the delegation was informed that the police station
experienced some challenges with the Department of Home Affairs
not responding timeously to collect undocumented migrants.
The committee made the following recommendations to the police
stations: One, that the police station furnish the committee with
the audit report mentioned in the news article; two, the police
station identify its challenges and forward them to the committee;
three, that the police station explain its turnaround strategy to
address vacancies and forward this information to the committee;
four, that the police station set up regular meetings with the
Department of Home Affairs in respect of undocumented migrants.
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Therefore, the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having
considered this report, recommends that the NCOP approve this
report. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
ANNUAL REPORT ON THE ACTIVITIES OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON
SECURITY AND JUSTICE, 1 APRIL 2015 TO 31 MARCH 2016
(Consideration of Report of Select Committee on Security and
Justice)
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, this is our Annual Report. The
committee oversees the following departments: Police, Justice and
Correctional Services, Defence and Military Veterans.
In the period under review, the following Bills were referred to
the committee:
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The Criminal Law Amendment Bill 2014, which is sexual offence and
related matters;
The Maintenance Amendment Bill 2014, which serves to amend the
Maintenance Act 99 of 1998, in order to improve the maintenance
system;
Defence Laws Repeal and Amendment Bill, [B7 2015] section 75;
Criminal Matters [B 20B-15] section 75, the amendments intend
providing for changes to the law pertaining to infrastructurerelated offences by providing stricter provisions for the granting
of bail, the sentencing of offenders and creating a new offence to
criminalise damage to, tampering with or destruction of essential
infrastructure which may interfere with the provision of basic
services to the public; and
Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 2B-15] section75).
The following papers were referred to the committee:
Briefing on proclamations in respect of entities involved in
terrorist and related activities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of
Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities
Act No 33 of 2004, and tabled in terms of section 26 of the Act;
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Revised Draft Rules 2015, made in terms of section 7(3) of the
Promotion of Administrative Justice Act No 3 of 2000; and
Provisionally suspended magistrate, Mr L Zantsi.
The following oversight visits were conducted by the Committee:
On 20 August 2015, Oversight visit to North West, in Matlosana,
One Stop Child Justice Centre.
On 9 September 2015, Oversight visit to Mthatha Department of
Correctional Services, DCS, - Maximum Correctional Services.
On 27 May 2015 the committee hosted a workshop on child justice.
The purpose of the workshop was to ensure that Members of
Parliament, MPs, understood the Child Justice Act and all
implementation challenges related thereto prior to conducting the
oversight visit to the Child Justice Centre in the North West
Province.
The objectives of the workshop were the following:
To share a common understanding of the Child Justice Act;
To understand the challenges related to implementation of the Act,
particularly in relation to children in conflict with the law;
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To understand the implementation challenges related to the Child
Justice Centres;
To equip members to oversee the implementation of the Child
Justice Act and prepare for oversight visits to Child Justice
Centres; and
To develop an understanding of parliamentary responsibilities in
oversight.
The workshop gave the committee, along with some other portfolio
committee members, civil society organisations, academics and the
department, the opportunity to engage collectively regarding child
justice.
Chairperson, the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having
considered this Report, recommends that the National Council of
Provinces approves the Report.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN
FAVOUR:
Eastern
Cape,
Free
State,
Gauteng,
KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
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FINDING A LASTING SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM OF OVERCROWDING AND
SHORTAGES OF CLASSROOMS IN SCHOOLS IN THE WESTERN CAPE – Building
of additional classrooms in the Western Cape
(Subject for Debate)
Ms E PRINS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Ministers present, hon
members, all protocol observed.
Sekerlik die belangrikste geskenk wat ‘n land aan sy kinders kan
gee is om aan elke kind ‘n gelyke kans te bied deur hom of haar
toe te rus met kennis en vaardighede om die toekoms in te vaar.
Suid-Afrika se Grondwet is gebou rondom die regte van die individu
en die gemeenskap. Dit sluit ook die reg van die kind in.
Onderwys is van die grootste belang binne ‘n menseregte kultuur.
Nie net rus dit die leerder toe met die nodige kundighede en
vaardighede vir ‘n sinvolle beroep nie; dit is ook ‘n geskikte
instrument om die grondtoon van die menseregte kultuur aan ‘n jong
en opgroeiende geslag oor te dra.
Dit is slegs deur onderwys dat ons vrygemaak kan word van onkunde,
bygeloof en vrees om plek te maak vir waardigheid en self-respek.
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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[Certainly the most important gift a country can give its
children, is to offer every child an equal opportunity by
equipping him or her with knowledge and skills to sail into the
future.
South Africa‘s Constitution is built upon the rights of the
individual and society. It also includes the right of the child.
Teaching is of the utmost importance within a human rights
culture. It does not only equip the learner with the necessary
expertise and skills for a meaningful job; but is also a proper
instrument to convey the fundamental tone of the human rights
culture to a young and burgeoning generation.
It is only through education that we can be liberated from
ignorance, superstition and fear to make room for dignity and
self-respect.]
Chapter 9 of the National Development Plan, NDP, states that
education, training and innovation are central to South Africa‘s
long-term development. They are core elements in the quest to
eliminate poverty and reduce inequality and are the foundations of
an equal society.
The National Development Plan is very clear on the provision of
infrastructure for education, as it stipulates:
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Infrastructure backlogs need to be addressed so that all
schools meet the basic infrastructure and equipment standards
set by the National Department of Basic Education. This
requires the targeted action to address the lack of basic
infrastructure.
We all know about the special place that children had in the life
of our great leader and father of the nation, the respected Nelson
Mandela. It is therefore no wonder that he had the following to
say about children and education, and I quote:
The power of education extends beyond the development of skills
we need for economic success. It can contribute to nationbuilding and reconciliation. Our previous system emphasised the
physical and other differences of South Africans with
devastating effects. We are steadily but surely introducing
education that enables our children to exploit their
similarities and common goals, while appreciating the strength
in their diversity. There can be no keener revelation of a
society‘s soul than the way in which it treats its children.
Die vraag is, slaag ons daarin om die klimaat en die omstandighede
te skep waaronder die kind homself moet toerus vir die lewe? Ons
lewe in ‘n tyd waar hierdie kosbaarheid onder ons voete vertrap
word. Leerders het ‘n politieke speelbal geword, veral in ‘n
provinsie soos die Wes-Kaap wat slegs daarop ingestel is om aan
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die einde van die jaar te spog met die beste slaagsyfer in die
land. Dit is goed en reg dat ons trots moet wees op die prestasie
wat leerders behaal, maar terwyl die Wes-Kaapse Premier en LUR vir
Onderwys paradeer met die top matrikulante en dan daarmee spog oor
hoe goed die onderwysstelsel in die Wes-Kaap is, praat hulle nie
graag oor die blinde oog wat gedraai word na die toestande
waaronder leerders in die arm en agtergeblewe dele van die
provinsie moet skool gaan nie.
Ons het in die pas afgelope verkiesing ervaar hoe die DA probeer
het om die waardes van die Vryheidsmanifes en selfs die beeld van
Nelson Mandela te probeer kaap. Dit skree egter ten hemele wanneer
ons kyk na die haglike omstandighede waaraan leerders daagliks
blootgestel word, soos wat lede van hierdie Huis ervaar het tydens
ons onlangse besoek aan skole in die provinsie. Dit laat ‘n groot
vraagteken hang oor die provinsie se erns om die speelveld gelyk
te maak vir ons arm en agtergeblewe kinders, veral dié op die
platteland.
Daar is ‘n Afrikaanse spreekwoord wat sê, ―Woorde wek, maar
voorbeelde trek‖. Laat my dus toe om die vologende voorbeelde aan
te haal. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The question remains, do we succeed in creating the climate and
conditions under which the child must equip himself for life? We
live at a time this preciousness is trampled on. Learners have
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become a political football, especially in a province like the
Western Cape which is only geared to boasting with the best pass
rate in the country. It is good and right that we are proud of the
achievements of learners, but while the Premier of the Western
Cape and the MEC of Education are parading with the top
matriculants and then boast about how good the education system of
the Western Cape is, they don‘t readily talk about the fact that a
blind eye is turned to the conditions under which learners in the
poor and disadvantaged parts of the province attend school.
We experienced in the most recent election, how the DA tried to
hijack the values of the Freedom charter and even the image of
Nelson Mandela. It cries to high heaven when we look at the
desperate conditions learners are exposed to, and which members of
this House experienced during recent visits to schools in the
province. It leaves us with a big question about the province‘s
seriousness to level the playing field for poor and disadvantaged
children, especially those in the rural areas.
There is an Afrikaans idiom which says, ―Actions speak louder than
words‖. Allow me therefore to quote the following examples.]
Nkqubela Primary School in Robertson has 934 learners. This is the
only Xhosa-medium school in the area. The school has 24 classrooms
of which nine are mobile classrooms, and one wendy house that
serves as a classroom. The school uses the facilities of two
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churches to house Grade R learners and other learners in an effort
to accommodate children who are hungry for education.
This indicates an average of over 53 learners per classroom. Even
the ablution facilities are limited and in a state of disrepair,
with a ratio of one toilet for 66 girls and one toilet for 47
boys.
There is no room for extension for temporary classrooms. We need a
completely new school with facilities on a different piece of
land.
Charleston Hill Sekondêre Skool is ‘n skool wat voorheen
benadeelde leerlinge huisves en bedien sewe laerskole in die area,
wat ‘n reuse probleem is betreffende klaskamers. Hier word
gemiddeld 50 tot 60 leerlinge per klas gehuisves. Dit is geen
verbasing dat die druipsyfer gemiddeld 50% per graad per jaar is
nie. Die skool is geidentifiseer as ‘n onderpresteerder.
[Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Charleston Hill Secondary School is a school that makes provision
for previously disadvantaged learners and serves seven primary
schools in the area, and that causes a major problem regarding
classrooms. Here 50 to 60 learners are accommodated per classroom.
No wonder the failure rate every year is on average 50% per grade.
The school were identified as an underachiever. [Interjections.]
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Prins, please take your
seat. On what point are you rising, hon member?
Mr J J LONDT: Deputy Chair, I would like to know whether the
member is willing to take a question on the oversight visit we had
last week.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you prepared to take a
question, hon Prins?
Ms E PRINS: No, Deputy Chair. We had enough time to discuss while
we were on the ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. Allow me to
respond to the member. [Laughter.] She is not prepared to take a
question. Please continue with the debate, hon Prins.
Me E PRINS: Wat is die letsels wat gelaat word op diesulke
leerlinge en watter hoop het hulle op enige prestasie?
Boonop als dit, is die klaskamers gebou met asbestos en word die
leerlinge blootgestel aan gesondheidsprobleme. U kan u indink hoe
koud hierdie klaskamers gedurende die wintermaande is. Die vraag
is of hierdie leerlinge al getoets is vir enige siektes soos
tuberkulose of andere gesondheidsprobleme wat gepaardgaan met
asbestos.
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Hierdie is twee voorbeelde van skole tydens ons oorsigbesoek, maar
daar is nog meer tragiese verhale in die Wes-Kaap as gevolg van
oorbevolkte skole.
Oorbevolking in ons skole het ‘n nadelige invloed op leerling
opvoeding op verskeie maniere. Dit affekteer die klasaktiwiteite
sowel as die onderwysbeplanning. Onerwysers het gewoonlik minder
beplanningstyd wat normaalweg ook gepaard gaan met minder
hulpmiddele in die klaskamer.
Onderwysers spandeer die meeste van hulle tyd om die oorvol
klaskamer te bestuur, in plaas daarvan om kwaliteit onderrig te
gee en innoverende onderrigmetodes toe te pas.
Daar is normaalweg ‘n groter tendens van afwesigheid van
onderwysers as gevolg van uitbranding en hoë vlakke van stres.
Leerders se konsentrasie word beïnvloed en persoonlike aandag aan
individuele leerders lei skipbreuk. Dit is hier waar swakker
leerders deur die krake val omdat individuele aandag ontbreek en
leerprobleme nie maklik geidentifiseer word nie. (Translation of
Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Ms E PRINS: What are the wounds these learners carry and what
hope do they have regarding any achievements?
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In addition, the classrooms are made of asbestos and the learners
are exposed to health problems. You can imagine how cold these
classrooms are during winter months. It is an open question
whether these learners have been tested for any illnesses like
tuberculosis or other health problems associated with asbestos.
These are two examples of schools we visited during our
oversightvisit, but there are more tragic stories due to
overcrowded schools in the Western Cape.
Overcrowding in our schools has in different ways influenced
learner education negatively. It influences the activities in die
classroom as well as education planning. Teachers generally have
less time for planning and that normally goes hand in hand with
fewer teaching aids in the classroom.
Rather than giving quality teaching and applying innovative
teaching methods, teachers spend most of their time managing the
overcrowded classroom.
There are normally a greater tendency of absenteeism of teachers
due to burnout and high levels of stress.
The ability of learners to concentrate is influenced and the
personal attention to individual learners suffers. It is here that
weaker learners fall through the cracks, because individual
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attention is lacking and learning problems are not easily
identified.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, you are running
out of time.
Ms E PRINS: Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Ek het nog nie eens by die positiewe uitgekom nie! [I haven‘t even
touched on the positive aspects yet!]
An HON MEMBER: Haai jinne! [O my word!]
Mnr C HATTINGH: Agb Voorsitter, die Adjunkminister van Basiese
Onderwys het net vanoggend in ‘n gekose komitee vergadering in ‘n
aanbieding oor daardie meetbare fasette in onderwys in die
verskillende provinsies gerapporteer. Dit was weereens beklemtoon
dat uit die top drie beste provinsies, wat gewoonlik ander
provinsies uitpresetreer, ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph
follows.)
[Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chairperson, the Deputy Minister of Basic
Education only this morning at a select committee meeting reported
on those measurable facets in the various provinces. It was once
again emphasised that out of the top three best provinces, which
usually outperform other provinces,...]
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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... two provinces were consistently mentioned: Gauteng and the
Western Cape, our top performing provinces in education.
[Applause.]
Coincidently, these two provinces are consistently receiving the
most learners from other provinces, annually. And they have to
continue without a concomitant increase in the equitable share
received from government to cope with the increased burden on the
respective provincial budgets.
My kolega sê, woorde wek, maar voorbeelde trek. Inderdaad, die
Wes-Kaap trek mense van oral aan, om hier beter onderrig te
ondergaan. [My colleague says, words inspire, but examples entice.
Indeed, the Western Cape is enticing people from all over to
undergo better education here.]
About 20 000 new learners join the province‘s schools annually, in
the case of the Western Cape. Now, that equates to about 20 new
schools every year. And still this province, along with Gauteng,
remains on average the uncontested best performer assessed over a
series of measureable outputs.
And this brings me to this debate and perhaps what is hidden
behind this debate. Only this morning, the Deputy Minister of the
Department of Basic Education stated that, to really address the
state of education in our provinces, we have to remove political
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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interests and agendas and put the interests of the learner first.
Can we truly say that this is what is unfolding here today?
In the context of this debate I would like to refer to, The
Prince, Niccolo Machiavelli‘s political philosophical treatise
published in 1532. A quote from it more than 500 years later may
still find relevance in political debates such as these, hon
Prins:
There are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by
itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a
third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of
others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, and
the third is useless.
The question that arises time and again is: Why the continuous,
petty and vexatious attacks on the Western Cape? It, in fact,
should make us all proud being the flagship and trendsetting
province in most of the comparable deliverables in the country.
There are massive backlogs, not only in the provision of
classrooms but also in basic services, as addressed through the
Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Development Initiative, Asidi,
programme. However, the same variable performance levels exist in
the expenditure ... [Time expired.]. The topic today was to come
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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with solutions, but the member forgot to mention that. I would
just like to know whether she could do it in her follow-up.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, may I caution you that there is a clock. Can you just
check that clock, as you continue participating in the debate?
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, please allow me to first and foremost
acknowledge the presence of supreme forces. Irrespective of what
our perceptions might be, I greet all of you, assalamu alaikum
[peace be with you]. When we debate overcrowding and shortage of
classrooms in the Western Cape, it must be clear that here, we are
essentially talking about forgotten, poor black and coloured
community schools in the areas.
We are talking about schools in Langa, Nyanga, Gugulethu,
Manenberg and Mitchells Plain. We are not talking about schools in
Camps Bay and the other affluent areas. We are talking about
schools in the Central and Klein Karoo where classrooms have
cracked walls that are on the verge of collapse. We are talking
about schools in the Breeder Valley where classrooms have broken
windows.
This must be clear, and it is not only overcrowding and shortage
of classrooms; such narrow focus is misleading and short-sighted.
Schools in poor communities do not even have libraries and books.
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Schools in poor communities do not have computers and science
labs. There are no sport and recreation facilities for our
children in these poorer areas.
There are no safety measures, gates, fences and CCTV security
measures like for schools in rich and affluent suburbs. According
to a recent social audit of safety and sanitation conducted by
Equal Education, 35% of schools in the Western Cape are not safe.
The government of the Western Cape has no interest in providing
quality free basic education for black and coloured poor people,
and this is clear. [Applause.] Instead, rugby fields are
prioritised in public schools like Stellenbosch High School that
is in a rich area, while schools in Kayamandi do not have
classrooms. High-level and stylish computer sciences are
prioritised in these affluent schools like Knysna Primary School,
while schools in Khayaletha do not have toilets.
This is the reality of education in the Western Cape – a divided
province along racial grounds, a continuation of an apartheid
learning environment. [Applause.]
The only government that will take education forward, particularly
for black children is the EFF government. It will only be when the
EFF government takes over in 2019 that all schools will have
classrooms. It will only be when the EFF government takes over in
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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2019 that classrooms will have 21st century technology to enhance
learning and teaching. It will only be when the EFF government
takes over in 2019 that classrooms will restore dignity to all
children. [Time expired.] Just for the record, the kingmakers must
ensure that the kings do their job. Thank you.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson and members, classroom shortages
across the country and in particular, in the Western and Eastern
parts of the country are a chronic matter. The situation is
depriving learners of an opportunity to realise their full
potential and freedom through access to a quality education.
It is shocking to learn that 22 years into democracy, learners of
Phakamisa Primary School in Kwanokuthula Township in Plettenberg
Bay are struggling to access quality education because the
classrooms are just not available to accommodate them.
This is a disastrous and chronic reality. The devastating
expression of this chronic situation is found more in the rural
areas of the Eastern Cape Province. For instance, at Xhentse
Senior Secondary School in Libode, there is almost no space to
move in its Grade 12 class, due to overcrowding.
In many instances, in those rural areas, a classroom is available,
but it was either built by a community using poor quality material
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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due to nonaffordability or the school is in a poor state that
poses a life danger to both the learners and educators.
As if this problem is not dire enough, where there are makeshift
classrooms, there are no facilities like toilets, libraries,
laboratories and sport fields. This is against many promises and
time frames pronounced over many years.
It is a constitutional obligation of the national government and
all provincial governments, including the Western Cape government,
to ensure that learners are not deprived of their right to
education.
However, we are making a clarion call to the Minister of Basic
Education to ensure that all learners in South Africa are learning
under conditions that guarantees them access to quality education.
Thank you.
Ms D SCHAFER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, it is no secret that under a
DA-led government life is better. This is evident from the large
number of learners who arrive here in the Western Cape at the
start of every school year as individuals choose to move to the
Western Cape in search of freedom, fairness and job opportunities,
with a better education for their children. It is also evident
from the recent local government elections where more and more
municipalises have chosen to vote for a better life.
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The topic for today‘s debate is complex. There is no simple
lasting solution to the problem of overcrowding and shortages of
classrooms, and yes, we do have overcrowding. Both of these are
caused by largely one thing, and that is insufficient money being
allocated for this purpose. The reasons for this insufficient
allocation are several, which I shall elucidate shortly.
Apart from the lack of money, another reason for the lack of
sufficient classrooms is insufficient investment by the previous
ANC administration in school infrastructure. In 2009, when the DA
took over the Western Cape government, we inherited a backlog of
hundreds of schools that were built with inappropriate materials
dating back to the apartheid era that evidently needed a
maintenance, upgrade or to be replaced entirely with a new
structure. [Interjections.] ―Ndiya funda ikuthetha iSiXhosa‖ [I am
learning to speak isiXhosa] don‘t worry. At the same time we
needed to keep up with the population growth in this province by
building new schools to cater for the additional l5 000 to 20 000
learners who enter this province every year.
The large numbers of inward migration to this province have
massive financial and planning consequences impacting on the
provisioning of education resources and the overall management of
the system. To accommodate all these additional learners requires
an extra 22 to 24 schools per year, at a cost of approximately
R50 million each, and more than 700 educators. On average, every
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learner in the Western Cape costs the public purse around R12 000
each year. This includes their norms and standards allocations and
educators‘ salaries averaged on a per learner basis.
The costs of growth are staggering. Over the last three years,
between 2Ol3 and 2Ol6, to accommodate just the influx of learners
has cost the department over R863 million. In addition, we would
need to spend between R1 and Rl,25 billion in a year just to build
the schools to keep up with this demand. This is without taking
into account maintenance of existing schools. Of course we cannot
build schools that quickly anyhow. We need to identify suitable
land, often acquire it, design the school, put it out to tender
and evaluate and award the tender before we can even start
building it.
The DA-run Western Cape has proven that with the money we do have
our infrastructure needs are prioritised. This is evident from the
fact that since 2009, we have completed 95 new and replacement
schools with an additional three schools that will be completed by
the end of this financial year. [Interjections.] No, it is not
national, but the Western Cape. A replacement school is a school
that has been replaced entirely with a new brick and mortar
structure, replacing its previous structure which was built with
inappropriate materials during the apartheid era. We have also had
zero underexpenditure on our infrastructure budget unlike the ANC
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in the Eastern Cape who had R500 million underexpenditure last
year. Fortunately, we got R50 million of that.
During the ANC‘s tenure between 2004 and 2009, they only built or
replaced 42 schools less than half of what we have done. In
addition to the schools we have built, the Western Cape Education
Department, WCED, has built 553 additional classrooms over the
last six years which include classrooms provided for the expansion
of schools, relief classrooms as well as Grade R classrooms. This
year we have invested Rl5 million on building 108 Grade R
classrooms to expand access.
We have recently increased the budget for expansion and relief
classrooms from R15 million in 2Ol5-16 to R48 million in 2O16-17,
in order to increase the number of classrooms provided owing to
the ever increasing demand for access to schools in our metro and
other growth areas. In addition to relieve the pressure at some of
our most congested schools, we have placed an additional 122
mobile classrooms at schools in need. Even with all this delivery,
it is simply not enough. Unless we are provided with more money
and more capacity to implement these projects, we cannot keep up
with the demand that is being placed on this province.
Another problem that sometimes leads to overcrowded classrooms is,
of course, insufficient teachers. In 2015, we managed to make
progress in this regard by increasing our basket of posts by 676.
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Thanks to various aspects of mismanagement by the ANC at national
level. We are now sitting with an extremely difficult financial
situation which has seen us not being able to increase the basket
this year and could well see a decrease next year.
The first aspect of mismanagement is the lack of economic growth
caused in large part by the ANC‘s internal policy disagreements
which has led to lack of investor confidence. And I note with
interest hon Prins referring to the National Development Plan,
NDP, when half of the rest of the party wants to implement the
national democratic revolution, NDR, and the growth path. But at
least they seem united in implementing the Gupta development plan,
GDP.
Secondly, is the flagrant theft and wastage of government money by
the ANC. They are now so brazen that they have even appointed the
thief- in-chief to oversee state-owned enterprises, now that they
have lost control over billions of rand in the municipalities that
they governed prior to 3 August 2016.
And then there is the increase in conditions of service for public
servants. The WCED employs teachers and noneducator staff, but the
national government is responsible for negotiating wage increases.
Despite the fact that we told national government what we can
afford, they negotiated almost double that. The crucial point is
that they have not given us the additional funding to cover those
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increases. As a result of these increases, we faced an immediate
budget shortfall last year alone of Rl,3 billion over the Mediumterm Expenditure Framework, MTEF. The agreement is linked to
inflation and is therefore unpredictable. The more inflation
increases, the more it impacts on our budget. We then had to cut
our budget by another R100 million last year, and have been asked
to prepare for more cuts this year. How on this basis are we ever
going to even catch up with the backlogs, let alone provide for
ever increasing numbers? Because of this we cannot afford to
increase the number of educators in view of the financial position
in which we have been put by the national government. Obviously,
this increases the size of classes and it is a disgrace. We also
do not have sufficient money for our accommodation needs. It is a
cause of great distress to me that our schools will continue to
feel the burden of decisions that have been made at a national
level by the ANC. Every day as the rand decreases and growth
stagnates we see our schools struggling more and more.
Some parents simply cannot afford to pay school fees which leave
schools that serve poorer communities in an even more compromised
position. This is not assisted by the quintile system which
allocates money according to poverty levels of a community. This
system is outdated and flawed. Schools classified as Quintile 4
and Quintile 5 often serves communities which are as badly off as
the no-fee schools in Quintiles 1 to Quintile 3. The funding model
tor schools needs to change, and I am pleased that at a national
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level this has now been acknowledged. What also needs to change is
the fact that we keep on receiving funding based on out-dated
information. The information used to calculate our equitable share
is the previous year's snap survey as well as information from the
general household survey. Other provinces have been cushioned from
the effects of losing people, but at the expense of provinces
gaining those people. And yet we have to provide for them. So we
are always playing catch-up. I understand the Treasury is looking
at ways of making the equitable share more responsive to the needs
of education in particular, as we are certainly not the only
province to experience problems with this.
I must also add that we are expecting even more learners to come
into the province in 2017. As most of you will know, the Western
Cape province was the only province to have increased its
percentage pass rate in the National Senior Certificate, NSC, in
2Ol6, while achieving the highest pass rate in the country —
84,7%. [Applause.]
Next year there is no way of knowing how many additional learners
will require placement, the areas in which they will settle, ages
and grades, nor will we know how many additional classrooms and
teachers will be needed to accommodate the influx.
Another unrealistic pressure is to expect minimum norms and
standards for infrastructure to be implemented over a few years in
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the current financial situation, and given the backlogs.
Organisations need to realise that we simply do not have the money
to keep up with the increasing demand on accommodation, never mind
addressing all the needs of some of our smaller and older schools.
As explained we are tackling this issue as fast as we can within
the budget frameworks if possible. However, if we were to just
replace all the old schools with inappropriate structures that
alone
would cost R17 billion, and our entire budget is
R19 billion. The DA-run Western Cape will continue to engage with
national government as we are committed to providing quality
education for all in the Western Cape as we have been doing since
2009.
I just want to address some of the issues raised. The hon Prins,
you referred to the issue of safety in schools which has
disappeared. If you can speak to your national colleagues in the
SA Police Service, SAPS, which have authority over the police, we
would greatly appreciate it. We have serious safety concerns in
the province. The police have been systematically underresourced
in the Western Cape and we require their support hugely in order
for us to address safety concerns which concerns me a lot.
[Interjections.] No, you must listen faster. We don‘t deny that
more need to be done at all, but we are really doing the best we
can under a very, very difficult circumstances.
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As far as asbestos is concerned, asbestos is in itself dangerous.
It is dangerous only when it is damaged. But we are replacing them
systematically anyway.
The other thing that cost us a huge amount of money which we could
rather use for service delivery is vandalism. I don‘t know how
many times we are expected to replace broken windows, stolen
fences and even classrooms sometimes where people do not even
notice and they just let people carry them away. We can‘t keep on
replacing damaged and stolen stuff. So we really need the
assistance of the SAPS and all other role-players in order to help
us in order to be able to spend every single cent we can on
delivering best quality education to all learners. [Time expired.]
Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, hon members, let me just quote
Alexander Pope when he said, ―Drink deep, or chase not the waters
of the
Pierian Spring. For shallow droughts intoxicate the mind
but drinking deep sobers the mind again.‖ In that spirit, I want
to welcome the announcement by the Minister of Higher Education,
Dr Blade Nzimande, wherein he said that for poor students that are
beneficiaries of NSFAS as well as those that are the ‗missing
middle‘, there isn‘t going to be any fee increase next year.
In other words, the ANC that runs a budget that is pro-poor is
actually taking care of the poor and the quality of education is
going to be improved progressively. [Applause.] I do want to say
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that the under-8% cap is actually going to affect those that can
afford. The budget is pro-poor; it addresses poor families and it
addresses the middle income group that has always been struggling.
Thank you to the Minister. However, we regret the protests.
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Zwane, just hold it! Hon Michalakis?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: I
believe the speaker is a bit off the topic. I think it just went
completely over her head. The topic is actually, Schools in the
Western Cape; not the Higher Education budget – completely over
her head!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: It is
a point of relevance! [Interjections.]
Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you for the lecture!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No,
no, no! Can I make a ruling on that? It is a point of relevance to
the topic; that is the point that you are raising. If you differ
with me, then I don‘t know which rules am I supposed to read now.
Therefore, I will allow the member to continue with the debate.
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Ms L L ZWANE: Through you, Chairperson: You can‘t lecture me in
how to debate; lecture the DA! Now, with reference to the schools
that are supposed to be build, I heard the MEC for Education in
the Western Cape lament the fact that they don‘t have money to
roll out the programmes of infrastructure development. This ANCled government has actually allocated budget to each and every
province, including the Western Cape.
For the Western Cape alone, the government has allocated
R992 million. We stand to see if that money is going to be spent,
come end of the financial year. For the Eastern Cape, the ANC-led
government has allocated R1,6 billion; Gauteng was allocated
R1,3 billion for infrastructure; KwaZulu-Natal was allocated
R1,9 billion for infrastructure; Mpumalanga was allocated
R988 million; North West was allocated R971 million; and then the
Northern Cape was allocated R971 million.
Now, with the figures that one has read: Which government are you
referring to that is failing to deliver? The ANC is delivering and
everybody can see, expect that do not want to see. In the process
of delivering an infrastructure, including classrooms, we need to
ensure that there is land. We need appropriate land for us to be
able to build schools that are the state-of-the-art. So, please
release the land that you have siphoned forcefully from us so that
we can be able to pitch the standard and build appropriate
schools. [Applause.]
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With regards to planning, I heard the MEC lament about the fact
that the population is growing. when you plan schools, you factor
in the projections of population growth – how far is the learner
population going to grow up to a given year for generation to
come, just as the ex-Model C schools did. We need to ensure that
we put up solid structures with a maintenance plan.
I therefore call upon the DA: To please take of Phakamisa Primary
- it is overcrowded; St Paul‘s Primary in George is also
overcrowded; and George High School is overcrowded. Go and attend
to those! [Applause.]
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, whilst the IFP is the protagonist
of federalism - for example, in South Africa we have provinces
because of the IFP and we have got two ballot papers at our
national elections: One for national; and another for the province
because of federalism, ho Mhlanga – we do acknowledge that South
Africa is one country. It is one country! Therefore, it cannot be
expected that infrastructure challenges that are in the Western
Cape will be different from infrastructure challenges that are in
the rest of the country, because South Africa is one country.
What is lacking, which we did not get at Codesa is adequate powers
to the provinces to be able to, amongst other things, collect
provincial taxes so that provinces cannot solely rely on the
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national fiscus. It is all these people here who denied us this,
and today, you are caught up in that situation.
The IFP has always maintained that the status quo in our schools
today is that those who are rich in our communities are able to
buy quality education and those who are poor remain with poor
education because they cannot have the means to send their
learners to where they can pay for quality education. It is
happening in all the nine provinces of our country.
The Western Cape situation is different. It creates a situation
where there are racial divide because of our historical
backgrounds. Those who are rich go to the rich schools – quality
education; those who are poor go to the poor schools – poor
education. The audit conducted by Equal Education in the Western
Cape, amongst other things, has got these findings: Schools don‘t
have proper sanitation; they don‘t have libraries; they don‘t have
laboratories; and they suffer overcrowding.
At the beginning of the year the Western Cape Education has its
hands full, trying to secure space for hundreds of stranded
pupils. On the Recapitalisation Programme, the schools that are
closing, shutting down, are in the townships and the rural areas
only. Schools elsewhere are not shutting down.
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What the IFP offers as a solution, in conclusion, is that we need
total overhaul of the whole schooling system in South Africa so
that the education of the child from a rich background is similar
to the education of the child from a poor background. I thank you.
Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, let me start by thanking everybody that
took part in this debate. It is clear that there are problems in
the Western Cape – big problems! The problems are only in our poor
areas – the previously disadvantaged areas. We didn‘t even speak
about Khayelitsha like the hon member was saying. You can go and
do an analysis.
You will find that previous Model C schools are sorted out. There
have no complains; we visited two. The only complain was about the
roof but I want to say that we must ... [Interjections.] Every
effort should be made in our future planning to adequate
facilities for learners as close as possible to the areas where
they live. We need to give attention MEC; we cannot go to those
areas every time and experience the same problems. It is not
right.
After 22 years of democracy, we had to make progress in that area.
I am telling you, it is a serious problem! We all should agree! I
cannot stand here and think that a member of the DA would come
here to play petty politics, saying I am useless! If I am useless;
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after 15 years I am still in Parliament. Where were you?
[Laughter.] Don‘t come here with your petty apartheid politics!
We can debate on this Western Cape, I can tell you because I am
from here. I am not from another province, I am from here. I can
take you to all those areas and I can show you the legacy of
apartheid! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Prins! Hon Prins! Hon Prins, can you address me, please!
Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, sorry! But standing here and listening to
members coming here to deny what is going on – the reality. They
saw it in practice! The DA people saw it; they didn‘t even want to
go to the toilets to see the conditions of the toilets. That‘s how
worse it is! [Interjections.]
... [Onhoorbaar.] ... nie wat julle Nasionale Party ...
[Onhoorbaar.] [Tussenwerpsels.][... [Inaudible.] ... not what your
National Party ... [Inaudible.]]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Prins can you just take your seat. Hon Khawula, on what point are
you rising? [Interjections.] Hon members, order! [Interjections.]
Ms E PRINS: [Onhoorbaar.] [Inaudible.]
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES:
Hon Prins, order please! [Laughter.] You know, I like one thing:
That is ... [Interjections.]
Ms E PRINS: [Onhoorbaar.] Waar was jy? [Inaudible.] [Where were
you?]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Prins, please! [Laughter.]
Just to be consistent you know, Hon Hattingh made a very important
observation yesterday in so far as the Rules are concerned: How to
converse in the Council? It is nothing to hackle but it is
something wrong to drown a speake0r and to interrupt a speaker.
That is wrong! However, it is happening today, just next to him
and he doesn‘t see anything wrong with that. Can we just be
consistent with what we are doing, please?
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order, I can
see that the speaker is very angry.
Bengikhulekela ukuthi uma engabashayanga nje nkosi yami. [Uhleko.]
Uma engababambanga nje ngezandla akhulume kodwa angababambi
ngezandla. [I was praying that he does not beat them. [Laughter.]
If he could just talk to them, but do not beat them with his
hands.]
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No,
that is not a point of order. I am going to sustain that point.
Can we conclude the debate. Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana?
Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, I just want to thank once ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Just
hold on, please! Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana?
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, on a point of order: Hon
Prins on pointing with her fingers [ngeminwe yakhe]. It is not
parliamentary and she is ignoring you as a Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I
cautioned her. I cautioned her that she must ... [Interjections.]
Aah aah, hon Prins! Address the Council through me.
Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, I withdraw my finger if that is a
problem. [Laughter.] I once again want to say thank you for all
the contributions – positive and negative. We all have one goal
and we must go for it. MEC, I am giving you instructions today - I
am sorry about my finger: Please go to our poor areas and make a
difference so that we can see. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
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IMPACT OF CRIME IN SOUTH AFRICA: MOVING WITH UTMOST SPEED TO
ADDRESS CAUSES AND EFFECTS OF CRIME TO COMMUNITIES.
(Subject for Discussion)
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, thank
you very much. I also appreciate the presence of some members of
executive councils, MECs, as well as special delegates, to this
Chamber.
The crime statistics for 2015-16 provide us as South Africans with
a reason and opportunity to review and reflect on our social
behavioural patterns. Our analysis of the statistics indicates a
decline in almost all categories of crime with the exception of
contact crime.
This suggests that in instances where the category of crime can be
policed following conventional methods of deployment there is a
decline, whilst there is an increase in areas that involve social
behavioural patterns that are difficult to monitor and police.
For example, domestic violence often occurs in the privacy of
residential premises and equally often results in murder, rape or
any of the contact crimes. It is sad that today the SA Police
Service spends billions of rand and lengthy periods of time
monitoring protests, for example issues such as lack of service
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delivery, appointments of people from outside to jobs within a
specific area, targeting shops belonging to foreigners, burning of
property and so on, instead of dealing with the serious criminal
activities taking place and badly affecting our communities.
Nonetheless, an overall comparative analysis of the recent
statistics indicates that we are headed in the right direction and
if we are to unite we will surely and certainly conquer crime.
However, the questions to be focussed on are merely just a few and
are as follows. Firstly, what are the causes of crime; secondly,
what are the effects of crime; thirdly, what should be done to
address the causes of crime; fourthly, what is being done to
address the causes of crime; fifthly, what should be done to
address the effects of crime; and lastly, what is being done to
address the effects of crime. These questions are important
because they would then give us an indication of where we are and
give us an idea of a pathway we should be taking in the fight
against crime.
Perhaps an excellent starting point would be for us in this very
same Chamber to begin to lead by example and encourage respect for
the next person and patriotism for the country. For it is only
through respect and love for our country and our fellow citizens
that we would certainly see an overall reduction in crime.
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For example, if one is to look at the very stubborn and serious
category of contact crimes one notices that the practice of these
crimes really stems from a lack of respect and thoughtfulness for
other human beings. It is only a person with a poor upbringing,
possibly a person who harbours anger or whose moral conscience is
tainted or nonexistent, who would actually gather the courage to
murder, rape, grievously assault and even go on to rob another
human being. Again, if such a person cannot respect a human being
or demonstrate love for their country, then certainly there is
little chance that such a person would respect another person‘s
property or for that matter, the state.
It is for that reason that I believe the increase in contact
crimes and the mere persistence of crimes relating to property
conveys a message deeper than merely the committing of a crime. It
speaks to a deeper social fracture in our society, something that
will not only have to involve law enforcement agencies but also a
huge commitment of unity between government as a whole and the
entire community towards the rejuvenation of the moral fibre of
our society.
Our society today suffers from a range of irregular social and, by
consequence, broken moral ills. The oppressor from even decades
ago used tactics such as the breakdown of families and culture as
an attempt to destroy our Africanness and values. Through
oppressive capitalist systems, our fathers were forced to carry
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dompasses and seek employment in the cities, in the mines and in
the gardens and kitchens of white monopoly capitalist oppressors.
It was compulsory and eventually became somewhat normalised to
find an absurd situation such as in which a black mother worked in
Johannesburg, the father worked in Kimberley whilst the children
lived in Soweto, and only to reunite once per annum. As a result
of which children grew up without proper guidance and in broken
families.
Today ladies and gentlemen, we still experience severely broken
families. This time however, we now have extra causes of such
brokenness which range from the death of fathers due to various
illnesses, including HIV and Aids, to merely fathers who refuse to
take responsibility for their children. As such, boys grow up to
be angry men who live without teachings of respect. Subsequently,
they seek father figures from gangsters and such other persons who
teach them nothing but immorality and disregard for their own
persons, the next person and so on. They are encouraged to take
drugs and engage in criminal activities. They are left without the
slightest of consciences and that is why we have young men who can
even gather the courage to rape a 90-year-old granny.
Another severely crippling aspect is the high levels of economic
disparities that exist within our society. There is no doubt that
our people — the African and black people in general — still
remain economically oppressed with the means of production and a
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greater chunk of the economic cake in the hands of our former
oppressors — the white monopoly capitalists. Our people are still
poor and this is one of the leading causes of crime.
Inequality is a possible explanation as to why we still see the
high number of crimes that relate to the taking away of property
of another, such as robbery, theft, burglary, drug-related
offences, carjacking, shoplifting and so on. In this regard there
are two broad categories of crime. The first is the 17 community
reported serious crimes which in the recent statistics constituted
83% of all crimes. The second category is crimes detected as a
result of police action which in turn constituted 17% of all
crimes.
Now, with regard to the 17 community reported serious crimes we
have four subcategories. Of the four subcategories we have a
decrease in three: contact related crimes by 0,8%; contact crimes
relating to property by 1,8%; and other serious crimes by 4,1%.
While these are significant strides in the fight against crime,
the 1% increase in the stubborn contact crimes is a serious cause
for concern. We are particularly concerned about murder cases
which increased by 4,9%; attempted murder by 3,4%; assault with
grievous bodily harm by 0,2%; common assault by 2,2%; and robbery
with aggravating circumstances by 2,7%. These crimes were mostly
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reported in the Western Cape, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and the
Eastern Cape.
The national murder study of 2015-16 illustrating the motive or
causative factors leading to murder could be clearly established
in only 59,3% of the analysed cases. A total of 58,9% of the
murders resulted from social behaviour, mostly arguments and/or
misunderstandings. According to the same available statistics,
multiple murders accounted for 3,5% of all murder counts recorded
in 2015-16. A total of 55 victims were killed due to domestic
violence; 34 victims due to vigilantism or mob justice; and 33
were killed during other skirmishes during the committing of such
crimes. Taxi violence contributed to the increase of murders by
190 counts, particularly during the latter part of the period
under review, whilst conflict among illegal miners, the so-called
zama zamas, was identified as contributing to the murder figures
recorded in the Free State.
Although not that prominent from a national perspective, gang
violence was found to be a direct generator of murders in the
Western Cape. More than 26,9% of the arrested offenders had
previous convictions ragging from assault, theft, drug-related
crimes, burglary at residential properties, robbery, illegal
possession of firearms and ammunition, malicious damage to
property to murder. The most prominent murder weapons were knives
at 36,3%; firearms at 32,1% and other sharp instruments at 11,1%.
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Gauteng and the Western Cape had more murders committed with
firearms than knives.
However, we are encouraged that sexual offences have taken a
significant dive with a reduction of 3,2%. Indeed, in this regard
we are heading for a better and safer community, especially for
women.
On crimes detected as a result of police action, again we have
seen a general reduction in the lag by the police as there has
been fewer such crimes detected. I wouldn‘t want to dwell much on
the statistics themselves ... [Inaudible.] ... would believe that
all hon members and patriotic citizens would by now at least have
perused the important figures that we published.
With regard to gang violence, another severe problem that we are
facing is the question of criminal gangs. Almost all listed the
crimes — and in all provinces — can be linked in some way or
another to various gangs and repeat offenders.
There certainly are several measures that the SAPSi has embarked
upon to prevent this phenomenon. However, as I have stated before,
one of the mistakes that we as a South African society tends to
make is to think that all problems must be solved by the police.
This is quite unfortunate because this is essentially what our
while oppressors taught us — that once the police come with their
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guns and ammunition everything will be resolved. However, some of
these problems are indicative of social backwardness which can be
solved by extensive community engagements and awareness
initiatives all within our respective communities. The family
members and the community in which our youths grow up have a huge
role to play in this regard.
The effect of drugs is playing a significant role in criminal
activities, thus damaging our country. It is sad indeed and each
province seems to have its own unique drugs. Some of these drugs
seem to have become somewhat normal within our communities. We
even nickname some of these boys and drug addicts as whoonga boys
and nyaope boys, whom we know very well are stealing our property
and selling it at ridiculously low prices just to get the drug for
the day.
Another problem facing our communities is the question of the
willingness to buy contraband or stolen property. It is us
community members who have created a market for stolen goods. The
SA Police Service has again partnered with various nongovernmental
organisations and is conducting community engagements and
awareness programmes on the Lahla iLahle Campaign which seeks to
discourage the purchasing of stolen products. These and many
problems require a number of strategic initiatives which
definitely must be implemented speedily and effectively. For
example, we are in the process of establishing various specialised
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multistakeholder engagement forums to address issues such as druginfested areas, mine crimes, cross border crimes and so on.
Thus, to address the high car thefts, murders, robberies, etc in
crimes reported in KwaZulu-Natal‘s far north region, we have
formed a multistakeholder engagement forum which includes
government departments such as Home Affairs, the Police, the
Defence as well as Transport, both from South Africa‘s side and
Mozambique‘s. On the other hand we have also roped in traditional
leaders, local municipal leaders and such other strategic
community members.
We are also forming similar forums which will include various
government departments, as well as different taxi associations,
bus operators and so on. Another example is of one in the Richards
Bay area earmarked to address various criminal activities
affecting the area, such as cable theft and so on.
These forums will sit regularly to find solutions to some of these
disputes in different areas. There is a lot that we still need to
do to ensure the redress of land to our people and ensure that our
people enter into and enjoy a fair share of the mainstream
economy.
We are certainly glad that through the Broad-Based Black Economic
Empowerment, BBBEE, policies, grants for small businesses and a
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plethora of such legislation, policies and initiatives, the ANCled government is showing a keen interest in implementing these
policies and ensuring that our people are economically
emancipated.
Firstly, we have reported on the rejuvenated back to basics
approach which will see the transformation of the SAPS, including
demilitarisation, professionalisation, integrity and discipline;
Secondly, we are encouraging and enforcing uncompromising
compliance with the fundamentals of policing; and
Finally, this approach seeks to see the police ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: As you summarise, Hon
Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... delve into a culture of performance
management and accountability.
In brief, this methodology will ensure that we immediately
characterise our current real problems supported by factual
evidence. We will then endeavour to immediately repair the
problems in our Police Service by bringing about a tangible
interim solution to prevent the situation getting any worse than
already is the case. [Applause.]
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Mr D L XIMBI: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister of Police, members
of the House, delegates from outside Cape Town or Western Cape and
members of the executive council, MECs, present, the topic for
today is ―Moving with utmost speed to address the causes and
effects of crime‖. We need to revisit the history of violence in
South Africa. It has been argued that the legacy of apartheid has
bequeathed to South Africa a culture of violence. The apartheid
era brought about state operated racism and police brutality.
Before 1994, the primary focus of law enforcement and the justice
system was on upholding, securing and entrenching the apartheid
state. The resulting highly centralised, paramilitarised and
authoritarian police service concentrated its efforts and
resources on eliminating opposition to the apartheid system.
During apartheid, not only were many of the laws unjust, the
security forces, particularly the police, were used by the state
to ensure that all South Africans lived in fear of the state. The
states of emergency during apartheid was used as a means to detain
large numbers of people in undisclosed locations and police could
kill randomly without being held to account. The continued unrest
and long struggle resulted in violence and losses of many of our
comrades.
Violence surrounded and became an integral part of daily living in
both the public as well as the public space. It was perpetrated by
both the state against those directly or indirectly opposed to it.
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Police officials used violence from the point of arrest and in
detentions.
The brutality of apartheid; the inequalities the policy gave rise
to and the demoralising effect of racism are some of the
contributing factors responsible for the violent crimes
experienced by South Africans. Apartheid state police also exposed
boys and young men to humiliating police harassment and a violent
prison system. Hence, the underlying influence apartheid had on
families, left children, as the Minister said, to grow up in
single parent families because of the migrant labour system. A
major focus of policing at that time was suppressing resistance to
the apartheid government.
We need to look also at the complex social and economic conditions
that created conditions for violence and crime. Poverty is one of
the major factors contributing to violent crimes in South Africa.
High levels of unemployment and inequality still influences crime.
One has to further consider the extent to which issues such as
housing, jobs, wages and education results in much aggression
which is often expressed through displaced violence within the
family and in the homes.
The social context further gives rise to children forming parts of
gangs, as mentioned by the Minister, to achieve a sense of
belonging and the distribution and influence of drugs is not only
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influencing high levels of crime but also breaking down family
units. The vulnerability of young people is linked to inadequate
child rearing and poor youth socialisation and therefore some
South African children are exposed to risk factors which enhance
the chances that they will become involved in criminality and
violence.
Internationally and in South Africa, there is increasing evidence
to show that poor people bear the brunt of violence in society.
Some of these include, a patriarchal society where women and
children are devalued and vulnerable, and the development of a
culture of violence where violence is seen as a legitimate means
to achieve goals.
Let us look at the role of the police as a driving force in the
fight against crime; firstly by highlighting the progress made
since 1994. With the onset of democracy in South Africa, in 1995,
the South African legislature passed the South African Police
Service Act 68. This Act established community policing as a new
goal for the reorganised South African Police Service. The new
government faces the task of transforming the police service into
one which would be both acceptable to the majority of the
population, and effective against crime.
The new government moved swiftly to change some of the symbols
associated with apartheid policing after the 1994 elections:
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Firstly, the name was changed to the South African Police Service
to symbolise the shift from a force to a service which was a key
component of the ANC‘s policy approach. Secondly, the new police
leadership was appointed, with the National Commissioner appointed
directly by the President. Thirdly, the uniform was changed. A new
uniform was designed for the new SA Police Service, SAPS, which
was less militaristic.
Fourthly, a new insignia was created for the SAPS, to replace that
of the eleven former police forces. Fifthly, the colour of police
vehicles changed, with all new vehicles being painted white with
blue lettering, instead of the bright yellow which had become
associated with fire brigade style police in armoured vehicles. In
some provinces, the names of police stations were changed, where
they had previously been named after apartheid era politicians or
police leaders.
Early strategies regarding the provision of safety and security in
the country centred on instilling collaborative working
relationships amongst key government departments and stakeholders.
This approach was first articulated in the 1996 National Crime
Prevention Strategy. This strategy was geared towards the
development of integrated cross-cutting programmes. Government‘s
policy approach to policing and community safety was cemented in
the 1998 White Paper on Safety and Security. Assigning the SAPS
with the primary responsibility for reducing crime, particularly
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those beyond its control like social contact crimes, as mentioned
by the Minister, hampered the effective implementation of the
National Crime Prevention Strategy, NCPS.
Nearly two decades into democracy, the police and policing has
undergone many changes in an attempt to provide adequate responses
to crime. Crime prevention approaches and strategies have been
closely tied to the broader constitutional vision of ensuring that
all citizens are safe and secure. This vision is espoused in the
National Development Plan and guides the work of the department.
Internally, the police have undergone a significant transformation
and are implementing demilitarisation and professionalism as key
tenets of policing as well as building working relationships with
communities. This is evident through programmes such as their
school safety programme and mobile police clinics, amongst others.
The National Development Plan places emphasis on working with
communities via Community Policing Forums. Access to justice and
the safety of rural and farming communities demanded special
attention which led to the implementation of the Rural Safety
Strategy by the SAPS as rural police stations are often isolated
and responsible for vast areas.
Therefore, a number of promising initiatives are taking place to
improve policing. To this end, SAPS is implementing a Back to
Basics programme to improve policing. As a result of this
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approach, some positive changes are already evident: A reduction
in cases that are older than one year through the introduction of
a docket age analysis system; better usage of forensic leads in
cases which has resulted in improved forensic work in the past
year; and improved firearm recovery. In the third quarter of the
SAPS 2015-16 financial year, firearms were reported lost or stolen
and ... Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chairperson, earlier this month, Minister
of Police, Nathi Nhleko, announced to Parliament that, broadly
speaking, crime in South Africa decreased. The acting Police
Commissioner, Lieutenant General, Phahlane, said in the portfolio
committee here in Parliament and I quote:
―When we say that we have made progress, sometimes it is not
convincing, especially when we talk on areas where lives have
been lost, but the downward trend suggests our efforts are
making a serious dent towards reducing crime. We are going to
carry on turning the picture around.‘‘
This would naturally evoke cheers from the government benches
under the false impression that in terms of crime statistics, the
department, which this Minister leads, is doing a good job in
keeping us safe. In fact, the opposite is true, in their
conclusion that crime in general is declining. The Minister and
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Acting Commissioner, failed to mention that they did not
differentiate between serious and petty crimes.
When one looks at serious crimes in isolation, the same statistics
show a 4,9% increase in murder compared to last year. This amounts
to an average of 51 people being murdered every day in South
Africa. This means that all South African citizens and visitors
from abroad are faced with a greater threat of being murdered.
You, as citizens, are less safe today than ever, over the last
decade.
Apart from murder, there has also been a 14,3% increase in
reported hijackings, along with increases in assault with the
intent to do bodily harm; common assault; robbery with aggravating
circumstances; and residential robberies. Cash in transit
robberies went up by a staggering 15,1%.
Among the offences rather, where decrease was recorded in sexual
offences,...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, sorry.
Ms P C SAMKA: Sihlalo, ingaba ilungu elihloniphekileyo likulungele
na ukuthatha umbuzo? [Chairperson, is the hon member ready to take
a question?]
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, are you ready to take
a question?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Not at this stage, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he is not ready to take a
question.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: ... among the offences where a decrease was
recorded are sexual offences with a decrease of 3,2%, and petty
crimes. This does not mean, however, that these crimes have
diminished significantly in recent years.
The reporting of crimes such as sexual offences and petty crimes
go hand in hand with the trust the public has in the police and
their capacity to act in these cases. If the general public‘s
perception is that the police won‘t act on their complaints, due
to a trust deficit, obviously these statistics would come down.
As always, I wish to make it very clear that have some excellent
officers in the SA Police Service, SAPS. To them we can never
repay the debt we owe for keeping us safe. But they also have some
astonishingly corrupt colleagues and even bosses who have
contributed to the fact that trust in the police in this country
has hit rock bottom.
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I want to feel safe in my own country and so do millions of
others. Security is one of the basic things that citizens in an
open democracy should enjoy and it is ironically one of the basic
rights which honest South Africans are being deprived of by the
State‘s neglect.
Gareth Newham, the Head of Governance, Crime and Justice Division
at the Institute for Security Studies, reminded us recently that
there was a time, not too long ago, when the Police in many areas
were on the right track. As recently as 2009, the SAPS in Gauteng
managed to bring down the number of aggravated robberies by
employing experienced task teams and effective crime intelligence.
These people also had adequate forensic support.
Within eight months of the implementation of this initiative, they
managed to help increase the arrests of these criminals by 100%.
Crime came down and citizens were safer. This was done through
effective crime intelligence. And then, two months after President
Zuma was appointed, General Richard Mdluli, a person facing
criminal prosecution for a string of crimes, including murder and
corruption, gets appointed as the National Head of Crime
Intelligence. This is one favour for another spy tape favour.
From there the ball was passed to the then acting National
Director of Public Prosecution to withdraw the 783 counts of
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corruption against Mr Jacob Zuma, paving the way for him to become
President.
The very same Minister Nathi Nhleko, then also ordered the then
acting National Commissioner, Mkhwanazi, to stop all
investigations and all disciplinary actions against Mdluli. He is
now suspended - thanks to the courts, but he has still not faced
any disciplinary processes. So, we are sitting with a Crime
Intelligence Unit with no permanent head for the least four years.
Thanks to ANC politics and the President‘s cover-ups, something
with which the Minister, not least after Nkandla, is all too
familiar.
In this period of four years, hijacking has gone up by 55%, armed
robberies by 31% and murder is up by 20% in these four years,
reaching its highest point in a decade. We are now more likely to
be murdered than any time since 2006. Let‘s applaud because
shoplifting is down.
There is one glaringly simple solution to the increase of these
serious crimes in South Africa, which is directly linked to the
cause of the problem - politics. The Minister needs to realise
that there is a clear problem and a clear cause. Take the politics
out of the police. The Minister also needs to realise that he is a
political leader of this department, ultimately responsible for
the safety of our people, or the lack thereof.
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I am still to be convinced that an increase in murder due to
police ineffectiveness caused by politics leaves the politicians
at the helm free of any blame. Ultimately, the Minister can shift
the blame, make excuses and play politics, but he should be
reminded that he has been playing politics with people‘s lives.
The lives of more than 50 million South African citizens,
thousands visitors and thousands dedicated police men and women,
who serve our country loyally.
If, for the Minister, serving to the best of your ability means
that one man‘s politics comes before the lives of millions of
South African citizens, you should rethink who is the master you
serve, or resign. I thank you.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Chair, the ANC government must be ashamed for
failing to deal with the causes of crime. Our hardworking men and
women in blue must know that when they are in the streets of this
country dealing with criminals, they are on their own.
This government is not interested in dealing with the root causes
and effects of crime, especially in poor communities. The hon
Minister laments the fact that the police have to spend time to
control the civil unrest in this country. This suggests that the
hon Minister doesn‘t appreciate the very basis of the high crime
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rate in this country which is directly related to the huge socioeconomic discrepancy in this country.
South Africa has the highest crime rate in the world, but this
country also has the greatest socio-economic discrepancy in the
world. These two statistics are related.
The hon Minister and also the hon Chairperson of the select
committee both stand on this podium and lament the effects of
apartheid. Twenty two years into democracy? Twenty two years of
failed and pathetic ANC governance? This government has lost the
plot. Unless the police have the following necessities, there is
no moving anywhere, and let alone moving at speed to deal with the
causes of crime: Firstly, decent police stations in buildings with
water, electricity, working telephones and internet; secondly,
appropriate allocation...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, sorry.
Mr M T MHLANGA: Chairperson, I don‘t know through you, can I ask
the member a question, please?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you ready, hon Vawda, to take a
question?
Dr Y C VAWDA: No sir, not at the risk of boring the people.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, he is not ready.
Dr Y C VAWDA: ... of vans that are well maintained and equipped
with modern technology; thirdly, to fight crime effectively, our
police must have 21 century modern equipment, particularly for
communication and analysis; fourthly, provision of proper
foundation and continuous training; fifthly, integration of
research into efforts to prevent and to deal with crime
particularly from research organisations; sixthly, well
capacitated detective services; and lastly, appropriate allocation
of number of police based on need, size and challenges facing the
communities.
All these are important and key requirements that if not met, we
will continue to see our men and women in blue killed in the line
of duty unnecessarily so. We will continue to see unresolved
murder cases while the criminals walks the streets free. We will
continue to see more policing deployed in Constantia, Sandton and
other rich suburbs while in Langa, Gugulethu, Alex, Marikana,
Diepsloot and the other places will have very few policing.
But more tragic, poverty and inequality continue to criminalise
many of our people. Unless we address poverty and inequality,
crime will continue unresolved and widespread.
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We must understand that in South Africa today, we are still
working within the same socio-economic systems that were
established in the pre-democratic era. These systems were
specifically meant to favour parts of the community and neglect
the majority.
We advocate that we need to move outside of these socio-economic
systems in order to deliver for the majority people of this
country and it is for this reason that we advocate nationalisation
of strategic gross resources. It is for this reason that we
advocate land reform in this country. It is for this reason that
we are advocating that our children must receive free tertiary
education up to first degree.
Our people will only be delivered out the miseries of Third World
living and into First World if address these basic fundamental
socio-economic causes of the discrepancies in this country.
Our people don‘t have jobs particularly young people and this is a
serious root cause of crime. Our people continue to be exploited,
paid slave wages without job security; this is a root cause of
crime. Our people don‘t have access to electricity; this is a root
cause of crime. Our people don‘t have access to clean water; this
is a root cause of crime. Our people don‘t access to decent
housing and this is a root cause of crime, twenty two years into
the new South Africa. Twenty two years of hope of the people of
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this country – the hope that is leading to despair and this is why
we are seeing such ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, thank you.
Ms T WANA: Hon Chair, hon members, Deputy chairperson of the NCOP
in absentia, Chief Whip of the NCOP, Minister of Police, permanent
delegates, delegates from provinces, distinguished guests and
members of the media, good afternoon; I salute you. When you are
standing here, Chair, it is very disturbing to listen to enemy
agents talking as if they knew the transformation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Wana, will you take your seat? Yes, hon Faber.
Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, on a point of clarity: What is an enemy
agent? Can the speaker help us because I have no idea? Just to get
clarity on that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Faber, you know that what you are doing is not in order. You
have to ascertain first whether the hon member is ready to take a
question. I thought you wanted her to respond to your question. If
it is a point of order, it is a point of order. Why are you
rising, hon Faber?
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Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I would like to know if the speaker
would like to take a question to tell me what the enemy agent is.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
No, no, hon Faber, you cannot do that. Hon Faber, you know the
Rules very well. Firstly, make sure that the member is ready to
take a question. Hon Wana, are you ready to take a question? Can
you go to the microphone and are you ready to take a question?
Ms T WANA: Chairperson, I am very busy. Therefore, I cannot take a
question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
She is not ready to take a question.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, can I then ask you Chairperson, to get
clarity on that? I have no idea what that agent is. If you can
give us clarity please Chairperson, we cannot sit here without the
clarity.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Clarity on what?
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Mr W F FABER: On what the enemy agent is. We heard something hon
Chair. I cannot ask the question apparently. So, I would like to
ask clarity from you as Chairperson, through you Chair.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: May I?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Sorry mama, let me make a Ruling. Hon Chief Whip, let me make my
Ruling first, then I will recognise you. Hon Faber, you are now
asking me a question. Well, I heard hon Wana talking about the
enemy agent. I listened very attentively but missed a part of
whether she was referring to hon member or to anybody in this
august House. Yes, I heard her talking about the enemy agent. So,
it is not for me now to ... Hon Essack ... Before hon Essack I
said I will recognise the hon Chief Whip. Are you fine? Okay. Hon
Essack, let me start with the Chief Whip. I will come back to you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Chairperson,
though we know we enjoy certain immunities by virtue of our status
in this House, I would like to really indicate that hon Faber
knows the topic under discussion.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Mama, mama, no ...
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Okay, can we
be relevant to the topic?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, yes Mama, already, I have made a Ruling about the issue of
hon Faber. Hon Faber, can you take your seat? Hon Essack ... No,
hon Faber, will you take your seat? No, I have made a Ruling.
Mr W F FABER: No, I want to speak to Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
No, I have noted hon Essack.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, thank you. You mentioned that you
missed a point whether the speaker on the podium was referring to
the individuals here or not. You are not sure about that. Just to
remind you Sir, the speaker on the podium said it very clearly
that: ―It is very difficult when you are listening to people here,
that are enemy agents.‖
You can rectify or ask her, the speaker, to get clarity.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
No, order!
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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Mr F ESSACK: That is why we want to get clarity because we do not
know what enemy agents are.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, thank you hon Essack for clarifying. Let me be afforded an
opportunity to go through Hansard and see whether she was
referring to a member in the House. Then I will make a Ruling
accordingly but let me appeal to all of you to refrain from - you
know the Rules very well - using unbecoming language. No, I am
referring to all of you, including the speaker and all the
members. Let us refrain from using offensive and unbecoming
language in the Chamber. Continue hon Wana.
Ms T WANA: Thank you Chairperson, let me thank my organisation,
the ANC for giving me this opportunity of standing here on this
podium and debate about the topic on violence against women and
children and the right of freedom and security of women. Let me
salute the struggle and the march of all races by South African
women on 09 August 1956. That march is still relevant even today.
Bantu bakuthi, njengokuba nisibona sihleli apha sixoxela ukuba
oomama bangcono emva kwengcinezelo ababekuyo, ndifuna ukuthi
koomama masimanyaneni kuba thina siyayazi inimba. Masinqande kwaba
bantwana bethu esibase kumaziko emfundo ephakamileyo ukuba bahlele
ngezantsi. Kaloku lo rhulumente babemvotele nge-1994 ngurhulumente
omamelayo. Le nto bayenzayo ngoku ayisekuko ukukhalaza.
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Ezi zinto zikhalazelwayo ngoku zizinto ezazishiywe ngurhulumente
wengcinezelo engazenzanga. Ukusukela namhlanje, boomama,
masithethe nabantwana bethu kuba sithi abantu abathwala ubunzima
iinyanga ezilithoba.
Nks T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Banibonile njengokuba be ...
Nks T WANA: Undibona ndithule nje bantu bakuthi, ndifuna uqaphele
ukuba xa umntu eginyiwe ngabelungu, uye ajike abe ngumlungukazi.
[Kwahlekwa.] Nindibona ndithula nje, ndisima kancinci nje,
ndiyayazi ukuba nimamele ekhayeni. Ndifuna nibone ukuba umntu xa
ezenze umlungu, uye aginywe ngabelungu kuba abelungu abadlali.
(Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Compatriots, as you see that we are sitting here and debating
that women are better after the oppression they were in before. I
want to say to women, let us be united because we know empathy for
our children. Let us ask our children in tertiary institution to
slow down the pace. The government they have voted for can listen.
Complaining is not what they are doing now anymore.
What they are complaining for are things that were left incomplete
by the apartheid government. As from today, women, let‘s talk with
our children because we had difficult time for nine months.
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Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Did they see you while they...
[Inaudible.]
Ms T WANA: I kept quiet because I want you to notice that when a
person has been taken by white people, she changes to be a white
woman. [Laughter.] The reason why I keep quiet, pauses, I know you
are listening at home. I want you to see that when a person makes
herself a white person he is taken by white people because whites
do not have time to play.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: [Inaudible.]
Ms T WANA: Ngoko ke ucinga ukuba andifuni kumphendula kanti hayi,
ndifuna nimbone. [Therefore you might think I don‘t want to answer
her but no, I want you to see her.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: [Inaudible.]
Ms T WANA: On the speculation: The achievement of democratic South
Africa to an extent that the gender after 1994 has got a
prominence and a public conversation.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hayi ndingumXhosa xho, andingxengwanga.
[I‘m an original Xhosa woman, I‘m not a cross breed.]
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Ms T WANA: Too much on this is still on the historic level but the
fact that few people of our society can come ideologically in ...
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: [Inaudible.]
Ms T WANA: ... ignorance in the matter largely consistent and the
women today are still under pressure.
Ndifuna ukuthi bantu bakuthi njengokuba sime apha sinezinto
esizibonayo. Mna andisayi kutsho ukuba ngomphi umbutho ...
[Compatriots, I would like to say, as we are standing here we see
things. I won‘t say which political party...]
... which has a feeling of something which is painful ...
... kodwa abantu abantsundu ... [...but blacks...]
... the have-nots stood up and defended Reeva Steenkamp and the
rich people are quite even today. Reeva Steenkamp is a white woman
who was slaughtered by a white guy but the have-nots are defending
Steenkamp every day in courts. Those are black women of South
Africa.
We thank O R Tambo on the day he made a statement that says:
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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Our revolution will never be complete without the participation
of women in South Africa.
[Applause.] That participation is relevant because as Africans, we
do not care about the colour; the feeling is one and you cannot
kill an innocent person.
As women, we no longer allow the national question to be above
gender issues. In fact, we no longer allow the thinking that the
national question is something separate from the revolution of the
gender. So, women of South Africa are special in the international
world because we have managed to build women of substance. Look at
our own Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka. Where is she? Look at Geraldine
Joslyn Fraser-Moleketi, Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma because ANC can
build a person. Chairperson, our South Africa is a signatory to
the protocols of international law in protection of young people.
For instance, the 1989 UN Convention on the Rights of the Child
provides that no one has a right to torture a child.
Ndiyababona ke aba tata babelungu abakwaziyo ukudubula abantwana
noonina babo. [I see those white men who can shoot children and
their mothers.]
That is a sinister to us as blacks; we do not do that. Secondly,
in the International Labour Organisation, ILO ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Wana, would you take your seat? Hon Essack, why are you
standing?
Mr F ESSACK: Very simple hon Chairperson and I am sure you will
agree with me. I would like to ask you to please ask the speaker
on the podium to retract the statement which, honestly, is not
right and is out of order that white people‘s children – she can
see that white people‘s children will kill their own parents. I do
not think that is tasteful and I would ask you to rule that she
should please withdraw that statement in a democratic society that
we live in.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you. Hon Wana ...
Ms T WANA: NgokwasesiXhoseni ke bantu bakuthi ... [Compatriots in
Xhosa tradition...]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Wana, can you go back and read the part that is dealing with
white parents. I might have missed it as hon – I beg your pardon,
white children, dealing with white parents. Can you read that
statement? I want to make my Ruling.
Ms T WANA: What I was saying Chairperson ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
No, do not clarify; just read what you have written.
Ms T WANA: The white man has got a capacity to kill their white
children and their mothers. Secondly, in Stellenbosch currently,
there is a white person who has been bailed by R1 million. He has
hacked ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Wana, no, will you take your seat? I am dealing with that
point of order. Hon Wana, can you withdraw that statement?
Ms T WANA: For the sake of peace ...
... kuba inyaniso ibuhlungu, ndiyarhoxisa. [...because truth is
bitter, I withdraw.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
No, do not qualify; just withdraw the statement.
Ms T WANA: I withdraw the statement, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Thank you, continue.
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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Ms T WANA: Secondly, in Stellenbosch currently, there is a guy who
has been bailed by R1 million. He has killed his partner. That is
a Stellenbosch white person. That is a Stellenbosch white guy.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, on a point of order: Firstly, that case
is sub judice; secondly, it is a drug-related incident; thirdly,
it is not a race incident. It has nothing to do with race or
colour. So, please Chairperson, I would like the speaker to
retract her whole statement.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Faber, your point of order is sustained. Hon Wana, we cannot
deal with cases that are in court. They are sub judice and the
Rules are very clear. So, refrain from entertaining an issue that
is still in court. Continue with your speech.
Ms T WANA: Sorry, Chairperson. The issue here is stating the
victimisation and the violence of women by other cultures. That is
the issue. For Faber to give me more information, I was not
interested. But what I was saying is that other cultures have the
capacity of doing what I was saying. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Wana, will you take your seat? Take your seat hon Michalakis.
I have made a point of order about that. Hon Wana, hon Faber made
a point of order and I sustained the point of order as it is in
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order. The Rules of the House are very clear that we cannot deal
with issues that are in court. They are sub judice. So, I am
saying refrain and do not even dare to explain the reasons. Do not
even motivate.
Ms T WANA: As I was saying, the International Labour Organisation
also prohibits child labour in all working places. So, that shows
that the international world is aware of child labour and you must
protect the children. In 1994, our Constitution secured the
freedom of women. Let me also congratulate our government in terms
building Thuthuzela Centres so that ...
... ukuze aba mama babethiweyo baze badlwengulwa bakwazi ukuba
baye kuhlala kula maziko kwaye bafumane uhlolo lwengqondo.
[...those women who have been assaulted and raped stay in those
centres and get counselling.]
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, with due respect, I know this matter is
getting a little out of hand but then the speaker is alluding to
the fact that Omar al Bashir can be condoned for murdering
children. Is that what she is saying?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
No.
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Mr F ESSACK: She is referring to the same issues. What is good for
the goose is good for the gander. Crime has no colour.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Hon Essack, will you take your seat? If you rise, you do like hon
Faber has done. It is either you are raising a point of order or
you want to ask a question. You cannot rise and debate with the
speaker on the podium.
Ms T WANA: Bantu bakuthi, nanjengoko besele ndichazile, masincede
sizigcine izidima zethu, siqale siyazi ukuba ezi ndawo urhulumente
azibekileyo, uzibekele ukuncedisa thina. Ngaloo mazwi ke ndithi
njengokuba silapha nje sipasisa le mithetho. [Compatriots, as I
have already alluded.
Let us maintain our dignity, start by
knowing that, things that government has kept aside, he kept them
to help us. By those words I say, as we are here we are passing
the laws.]
As a result, as I am standing here, I am very proud that the rate
of violence in the Eastern Cape, where I come from, has immensely
dropped and also in these seven provinces it is evident that it is
dropping also. The job that is being done by our policewomen to
have programmes in the rural areas should be very much appreciated
by all of us.
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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Kaloku phaya ezilalini eminye imithetho abayazi ... [They do not
know other laws in rural areas...]
... but because this is a participatory government, all the
stakeholders are given a hearing. So, that is why we are
witnessing the drop in the rate of violence. Sexual offences are
also lower in those areas.
With those words, Chairperson, let me reiterate that we as people
born into this ANC and never left it, appreciate that the Freedom
Charter of 1955 has given us an insight in every programme and we
can think out of the box rather than to impress our bosses. Thank
you very much Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, while our laws have substantially
changed for the better and our Constitution protects the rights of
all South Africans and established the principle that all are
treated equally before the law, in practice this has been very
difficult to achieve. We know that it is relatively easy for those
who have access to wealth to pay for good lawyers, to [Inaudible.]
to court and to hire good security services and yet it is the
opposite for those trapped in deep poverty.
The crime control and prevention has been narrow, with a slant
towards wealthier suburbs, residents and business groups. This is
so because they are more likely to lobby around crime. More
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devastating crime incidents are primarily concentrated in the
rural areas where there is no access to media or to pressure
groups and government services. These crimes are therefore not
reported and thus they would not be part of the crime statistics
released annually.
It is these people, the country‘s poor, who are the hardest hit
and bear the brunt of crime on a daily basis. This is devastating
given that most citizens of the country are either extremely poor
or are continually vulnerable to becoming poor.
One of the cruellest kinds of crime is economic crime. It remains
a serious challenge to business leaders, government, private
individuals and the most vulnerable. It is like a virus that
persists despite efforts to combat it. It is a threat not only to
business but to a wide range of systems and including social
wellbeing of the citizens.
Economic crime damages internal government systems, erodes the
integrity of government and the private sector and tarnishes the
reputation of the country. Economic crime makes it difficult for
the effective and efficient provision of service delivery for the
poor. For as long as those holding political and economic power
act with impunity, and use the criminal justice system to dodge
very serious allegations of the abuse of power and state
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resources, we cannot reasonably expect citizens to respect law and
decrease crime.
Crime is the enemy of development. When crime is the order of the
day, then community development is stalled. We must work
collectively and urgently to stop crime. We must act as example in
fostering the culture of anti-crime and create crime free
communities.
Okokugqibela Mhlekazi, siyayivuma into yokuba kwezinye iindawo
ubundlobongela buhlile. Ukuba umntu ubala kakuhle, ukususela
kunyaka wama-1994, uya kufumanisa ukuba izinga lokusetyenziswa
kweziyobisi linyukile kwaye ubugulukudu, ukusetyenziswa
kweziyobisi nodlwengulo lwabantwana zizinto eningakwaziyo
ukuziphelisa kumaphondo onke oMzantsi Afrika.
Ndiyayiva le nto ayithethayo uMadlomo, kodwa kutsha nje kukho
umntwana oyintombazana obuleweyo eFord Gale, ezantsi kwaMpuku. Le
ntombazana ibulewe kwenye indawo yaya kubekwa kwaMpuku.
(Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Lastly Sir, we agree that in some places crime has gone down. If
a person counts properly, since 1994, you will find out that the
use of drugs has increased as well as criminality; the use of
drugs and the rape of children are the things that you can
eradicate in all the provinces of South Africa.
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I hear what Madlomo is saying, but recently a girl was killed at
Ford Gale, at Mpuku village. This girl was killed somewhere and
taken to Mpuku village.]
There are many of these crimes which are not reported ...
... ngabantu abahluphekayo. [... by poor people.]
The worst of all Minister, the police force, especially ...
... kwezaa ndawo zingaphandle, inengxaki yokulwa ubundlobongela.
[... in the rural areas, has a problem of fighting crime.]
It seems like there is no co-ordination between the police and the
justice sector. That needs to be addressed. You must talk with one
voice ...
...
ukuba nifuna ukulwa ubundlongela kuba amapolisa
nabatshutshisi abasebenzisani kakuhle. Loo nto ibalulekile kuba
abantu bakuthi bayaphela - masiyekeni ukuziqatha. Ezilalini
kunzima kwaye eyona nto engamandla yeyokuba xa kubulewe umntu
osisityebi nonezinto, amapolisa ayakhawuleza ukufika kuloo ndawo
kodwa xa kubulewe umntu ohlupheka njengam, akuhoywa. Zizinto
ezifuna ukuqwalaselwa ezo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph
follows.)
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[... if you want to fight crime, but the police and the
prosecutors are not working together. That is important because
our people are dying - let us stop deceiving ourselves. It is
difficult in the villages and what is worse if a rich person dies,
the police are quick to arrive at the scene but if a poor,
struggling person like me is killed, no one takes notice. These
are the things that needs to be taken into consideration.]
This is democracy; we need to address these things here.
Masiyekeni ukuqhathana apha. Ubundlobongela ezilalini bandile
kwaye kubi. Enkosi. [Let us stop deceiving each other here. Crime
in the villages has increased drastically. Thank you.]
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I think it will be appropriate that I
start off by thanking the women and men in blue for putting their
lives on the line to ensure that we are safe as a country. If you
could imagine that tomorrow we withdraw all police in the country
as people are claiming that they are not doing anything. How will
this country be? I want to thank them very much. They could have
taken other jobs but they decided to take this risky job for us to
be safe as a country. We want to thank them very much.
This debate takes place towards the end of the most important
month in the calendar of our country, Heritage Month. Accordingly,
this should be a great cause for celebration of our achievements
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in building a single nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and united
South Africa that truly belongs to all who live in it as
proclaimed in the Freedom Charter. It should also afford us an
opportunity to reflect critically on the challenges ahead in our
collective journey towards a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and
prosperous society.
As the Freedom Charter proclaims, ―there shall be peace, security
and comfort.‖ How far have we gone as a nation and as a country in
creating peace, security and comfort in our homes, our streets and
neighbourhoods? Emerging from the past of segregation,
socioeconomic deprivation and lack of equal access to
opportunities, how are our collective efforts in combating crime
making a dent?
This is a collective aspiration of the people of South Africa,
united in diversity against violent crime that include rape of
elderly people, children, murder, armed robbery and economic fraud
that threatens the security of our country.
It is always tempting in debates of this nature, for some —
underline some — political parties to display a narrow partisan
posture driven by desire for points scoring. But the fundamental
question, however, is how everything we have said in this podium
or this debate concretely contributes towards a greater
mobilisation of our social sectors against the scourge of crime
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instead of pointing fingers to each other? This is the fundamental
message that should emerge from this debate as South Africans
across colour, class, gender and religious affiliations are firmly
turning their eyes to our television screens to hear a message of
hope from all of us debating here today.
I agree with hon Michalakis who said we need to take politics out
of crime. But the reverse happened here while he was debating. We
need to do that, for example ... If we don‘t do that ... Crime
does not have colour; it affects all of us across colour lines.
The ANC enters this debate emboldened by the global realities of
the link between crime and socioeconomic status of people.
Today many nations of the world are confronted by the scourge of
crime due to the global economic downswing that has seen many
people laid off from employment, income and livelihoods. As an
alternative to employment as a source of income, some people
resort to crime in various forms. The indignity imposed by
poverty, hunger and deprivation has led to an escalation in
substance abuse, especially in the poorest sections of society.
Besides all the policies that the ANC-led government is
implementing that have led to the reduction of crime in our
country, the ANC, at its Mangaung conference in 2012, found the
introduction of street committees to be very important when
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dealing with issues of crime. I think we should consider that very
seriously if we want to deal with crime.
A number of resolutions were taken at the ANC‘s recently held
General Council. The ANC resolved to root out corruption in
government and the private sector, with the following
recommendations: periodically rotating civil servants, including
those in the security cluster, to different employment sites, to
ensure that they break the relationships that they have with
people that are involved in crime; expedite the vetting process
for government employees and its related entities; implement a
single state vetting agency to vet all strategically placed civil
servants, including those at state-owned enterprises, and people
who turn down a promotion even though it comes with an improved
remuneration packages.
In the contemporary context of South Africa, the effect of
apartheid ... you cannot shy away from that because that is from
where these socioeconomic conditions come. The effects of
apartheid social engineering that subjected the vast majority of
our people to the lack of equal access to opportunities and social
deprivation on the basis of colour, gender and class continue to
cause untold suffering in the lives of the vast majority. This
social engineering — which the United Nations declared a crime
against humanity — also assumes acute forms of violence.
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Sihlalo liyangiphazamisa ilungu elihloniphekile uMpambo-Sibhukwana
ngapha. [Chairperson, hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana is disturbing me this
side.]
How do we expect ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, no.
Ms L C DLAMINI: South Africa‘s contemporary public discourse of
crime abounds with a narrative by liberal apologists that merely
strengthening policing and the criminal justice system will
provide a panacea for crime in our country. This liberal view
wants us to believe that crime has no socioeconomic dimensions and
roots. However, the prevalence of violent and white collar crime
in South Africa clearly assumes a dichotomy of the poor and the
rich, with most violent crime found to be prevalent in poor
communities, and white collar crime prevalent within privileged
sections of the society. Our crime statistics year to year reveal
this pattern which clearly shows the socioeconomic profile of
crime in our country.
The recent crime statistics have clearly demonstrated a link
between poverty, substance abuse and crime especially in the
country‘s crime hotspots like Delft and Nyanga in the Western
Cape.
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The SA Police Service has developed, amongst other critical
interventions, the National Crime Prevention Strategy. Hon
Minister, it is very important to implement that strategy.
I have just learned that so many people think that they understand
what the root causes of crime are, but they don‘t. If you have
listened to the issues that they raised with the department ...
What does electricity, water, and housing have to do with this
department. We had an opportunity to meet with different Ministers
to talk about these issues but we are raising them with the
Minister today. It shows how much we don‘t understand.
In conclusion, crime knows no colour, class or religion. Let us
declare it our public enemy number one. Thank you very much, hon
Chair. [Applause.]
Mr D PLATO (Western Cape): Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members,
thank you for the opportunity to stress to you the impact that
crime is having on our country, which requires all of us to do
more.
In the Western Cape the prevalence of crime and specifically the
violent crime committed between people are wreaking havoc in our
communities. The impacts of these crimes are far reaching. In
debating the impact of crime in South Africa we have to realise
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that the impact we are talking about here is a lived experience to
someone outside of these parliamentary gates.
In the same token as the hon member who spoke before me, dare not
anyone here try and play politic with the safety threats the
people in this country face everyday. We cannot only discuss the
impact by measuring statistics, comparing provinces and areas
trying to assign blame to someone else. Our discussion on the
impact of crime today has to take a hard look at the crime
situation in South Africa; be frank about the problems that cause
crime; acknowledge the impact of crime on South Africans; find the
things we have to do the collective solutions with everyone‘s
involvement; reduce the impact of crime, and create safer
environments.
Anything less than that discussion is an insult to anyone who has
suffered and makes criminal out of all of us, as we derelict our
duty to serve the people of this country. The crime statistics
released paints a concerning reality across South Africa. The
crime situation in the Western Cape at first glance shows a slight
statistical improvement in 17 crime categories.
However, I am also concerned that in the Western Cape less crime
has statistically been reported than the year before. This could
be a reflection of lower public confidence in complaints; actually
being attended to effectively by the police. In the same breath, I
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would caution against reading too much into reported decreases in
some crime categories, as too many people still do not report
crime to the police.
As the Western Cape government we believe that under the new
provincial commissioner‘s leadership, we are experiencing
increased policing stability and better accountability to the
people in our communities.
The Western Cape has been severely impacted by limited policing
resources. The deployment of additional officers, 1 324 confirmed
of 3 000 backlog, cannot come a moment too soon. Indeed, it is
only the first step to addressing some very disturbing trends in
the crime statistics.
In order for us to understand and ultimately reduce the impact of
crime in South Africans, we need to understand what causes these
crimes and after interventions and alter our interventions and
problems accordingly.
The triple threat of poverty, unemployment and inequality can be
seen as possible contributors to why people turn to crime - a
temporary wrong solution in an attempt of survival. Problems with
policing resources, policing efficiencies and adequate polices
responses are another cause of why crime is often seen as being
left unabated.
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From my analyses, my observations and my interactions with
communities, and the number and types of complaints that my office
receives; I am convinced that the latest crime statistics has
shown a pervasive influence of gangs on the Western Cape‘s crime
rate.
At my estimates, interpersonal violence, and the Minister referred
to that as well, gangs, guns and drugs are collectively
responsible for almost half of all crimes reported in the Western
Cape. The provincial SAPS have said that 24% of all murder and
attempted murder cases are gang related.
Many communities are suffering under a vicious cycle of
gangsterism, drugs and guns. This is evident in statistics showing
that 36,3% of all drug crime occurs in the Western Cape. We also
have the country‘s highest rate of illegal possession of firearms
and ammunition, and seven of the top 10 stations for murder are in
the Western Cape.
The availability of guns in our communities, the scourge of drugs
and gangsters and the drug kingpins who hold our communities
hostage with these crimes have to be addressed.
That is why, Chairperson, I said in 2014 in this House, it was a
mistake to take away the police reservists. The sacking of so many
thousands of reservists impacts severely on policing manpower and
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resources at police stations. It impacts on police visibility on
our streets. We hamstrung the police so much and still believe
that the SAPS must win the fight against drugs and gangs.
The impact of dissolving the Specialised Gang and Drug units was a
mistake. It was a mistake which national Cabinet has realised and
has promised to bring back the Specialised Gang and Drug units
under the Hawks.
Chair, with these units‘ full implementation imminent, the rest of
us have a duty to maximise the opportunity it present to address
the rest of the problems which have historically helped to create
the conditions which can flourish.
We need the whole of society approach to stem the impact of crime
by addressing all aspects of the problem and improve the entire
criminal justice chain.
We in the Western Cape have taken our constitutional oversight
mandate seriously. We legislated our powers in the provincial
Community Safety Act and created the office of the Police
Ombudsman to help find solutions to the problems people experience
with the police, in an attempt to rebuild trust between
communities and the police and improve policing efficiency in the
province. We partner with the police in the province to this
extent and appreciate the work SAPS are doing.
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We have created the court watching briefs unit to identify
policing inefficiencies as they appear in the courts trying to
help prevent cases being scrapped from the court roll and justice
not being served.
The watching brief is expanding to 25 courts in the province and I
am excited about our continued talks with the justice department
as we cannot do this work without their assistance.
We partner with our communities through the safety structure which
exist such as the Community Policing Forums and Neighbourhood
Watchers. We aim to capacitate these structures with training and
support through the Expanded Public Partnership, EPP.
The final regulations pertaining to the Western Cape Community
Safety Act will take effect in October. It will see the department
of community safety receiving quarterly crime statistics from the
police to enable the entire safety fraternity to be activated with
the most recent information and to align all our responses to
crime in an attempt to help prevent crime from occurring.
We partner with all communities in the province to determine the
policing needs and priorities for the province through a
formalised process and collectively we draw up localised safety
plans ready for implementation by all safety role-players in a
community. A whole of society approach is incomplete without the
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involvement and support of people in communities and nongovernmental organisations working in our communities.
We partner with the religious fraternity in the Youth, Safety and
Religion Partnership program which provides educational and
development alternatives to youths at risk during school holidays.
And recently we have structured what we call the walking bus
initiative to provide safe persons for learners in the morning
from home to school and in the afternoon back from school to home.
The problems the youth face cannot be ignored and we,
collectively, have to address them. We need to prevent our youth
from becoming involved in negative social behaviours such as
gangsterism, drugs and alcohol. We need to create the
opportunities for our youth through education, jobs and social
programmes to keep them safe.
That is why my department invests heavily in youth focussed safety
outreaches. We will continue with the opportunities available at
our Chrysalis and Wolwekloof Academies, as well as the existing
opportunities for bursaries towards studying at Northlink
Colleges. Part of the drug problem in the Western Cape is the
harms associated with alcohol abuse.
Research confirms that alcohol abuse causes serious problems in
the Western Cape. Not only does excessive alcohol use and abuse
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have very serious medical implications for users and their unborn
babies but alcohol is also among the primary drivers behind many
violent crimes, fatalities on our roads, as well as domestic
violence and abuse. The Minister referred to that as well.
The Western Cape Department of Community Safety has been mandated
by the provincial cabinet to take the lead in the Alcohol Harms
Reduction (AHR) Game Changer which will see interventions based at
both community level and policy level simultaneously introduced to
bring about change. [Time expired.] Thank you, Chair.
Mr N D MASEMOLA (Limpopo): Chairperson, hon Minister and MECs,
comrades, colleagues, and fellow South Africans, the struggle for
liberation, freedom and democracy, led by the ANC, was the most
critical process to bring about peace, security and stability to
society. As such, we depart from the profound basis that quality
of life also means improving the safety and security of citizens
in their homes and wherever they are at different times. We debate
the phenomenon of crime at a time when we have long articulated
our policy approach that guarantees citizens protection and the
peaceful exercise of their democratic rights.
The National Crime Prevention Strategy provides a framework to
harness the energies required to co-ordinate the efforts for
collaboration, and this is based on principles of integrated
efficiency for service delivery, strong community participation,
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consultation, and the sharing of quality information for prompt
responses.
Continuous transformation of the SA Police Service focuses on
areas that increasingly ensure that communities have access to the
services needed from the SA Police Service. Through development
and capacity building of police stations, there is adequate access
to the service points. These community service centres have
resources to enforce the tactical response capacity driven by
intelligence and detective services to maximise space
opportunities in the interest of the citizens.
The protection of the nation and our sovereignty is paramount, and
protecting our way of life is our foremost mission and
constitutional duty. The ANC is pursuing the political
administration that would lead us to the goal long envisioned in
the Freedom Charter that there shall be peace, friendship,
security, and comfort. We debate this issue of national importance
days after the release of the crime statistics report by the
department – a report that points to areas that need continuous,
serious attention so that we bring down the levels of challenges
relating to crime in our communities. These include issues such as
cash-in-transit robbery, carjacking, driving under the influence
of alcohol and drugs, murder, attempted murder, and commercial
crime.
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These crime categories, not only limited to the abovementioned,
require serious attention by law enforcement agencies. Therefore,
multisectoral mechanisms would have to be strengthened
continuously to sharpen the systems so that we could undermine
criminal actions and win the war against crime.
It is clear that specific mindsets and historical conditions still
exist in society. This is seen through the proliferation of
illegal firearms in society, as well as the conspicuous display of
a psychological attitude that constrains the agenda of social
cohesion and continues to victimise vulnerable members of society.
These intentions and efforts strive to enlarge networks of crime
in reach and sophistication, both internally and across national
boundaries. This is done in an effort to undermine the democratic
government and instil panic in the nation in hopes of a shift in
power relations.
Those with such intentions should know that the contemporary
political issues that characterise the landscape are far from
signalling the demise of the ANC. In fact, the consciousness of
the people is being rekindled to ensure the durability and
longevity of the democratic government led by the glorious
organisation of the people of our country and the continent.
As we sharpen our efforts in fighting crime, let us refresh our
minds about what was said by the founding father of the democratic
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nation, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, at the occasion of the opening
of the Parliament in February 1995 when addressing public concern
about crime:
The situation cannot be tolerated in which our country continues
to be engulfed by the crime wave which includes murder, crimes
against women and children, drug trafficking, armed robbery,
fraud and theft. We must take the war to the criminals and no
longer allow the situation in which we are mere sitting ducks of
those in our society who, for whatever reason, are bent to
engage in criminal and anti-social activities.
Despite the fact that the socioeconomic space continues to be
challenged by criminal activities that have created different
communities in cities and towns in our country, the principle of
civil supremacy remains imperative 21 years after this statement
was made. As such, through national democratic transformation and
by enlisting the services of the SA Police Service, the ANC is
hard at work to eliminate conditions that seek to breed social
crime. Equally, the same is expected from communities – to make it
difficult for criminals to operate freely or find refuge amongst
them in many parts of the Republic.
Furthermore, political action to remedy the diagnosed challenges
related to crime is essential to precipitate change and upset the
mind equilibrium, in order to ensure the substantial erosion of
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dysfunctions of the mind that enmesh society and provide
conditions for criminal values to settle and find expression in
many ways.
Crime is not only the actions of those criminogenically disposed
individuals but also of a series of structured determinants
present in almost every community. Their social organisation
influences behavioural patterns in society, thus influencing and
defining characters of communities. This is seen from the
emergence of gangsters, syndicates, criminal activities, and the
management of the underground economy. All of this exposes us to
different experiences and realities of crime.
Nevertheless, the SA Police Service in our province, and I suppose
in other provinces, is working very hard through the following
activities to combat crime and attend to the flashpoints
identified in the recently released report. They do work by
conducting visible policing, through cluster co-ordination and
deployment of appropriate resources, by intensifying intelligence
and detective services, and building partnerships with
stakeholders. We also see capacity building of police stations for
proper handling of dockets and complaints, as well as appropriate
utilisation of resources, and proper understanding and application
of the law for successful prosecution. Work is also done by
improving tactical and response capacity, managing criminal
records and forensics, fighting crime and corruption, eradicating
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drugs in communities, and ensuring peace and territorial
integrity. These are just a few of the efforts embarked upon to
create conditions for safety in our communities.
In strengthening our collective approach to the fight against
crime, active involvement and participation of local government
cannot be overemphasised, as it could easily, or earlier, identify
antisocial behavioural conduct and social exclusion through its
active structures in communities and respond in good time to
address these. The establishment of municipal police is very
commendable progress made in strengthening the resource capacity
needed to fight crime in conjunction with the SA Police Service.
Crime in all its manifestations robs our country and its
institutions of valuable assets, both materially and human, and of
information critical to societal development. In the recent past,
we have also seen the emergence of illegal mining with serious
consequences, as lives were lost. We have seen fellow South
Africans registering their discontent and displeasure about
whatever matter in destructive and violent ways. These illegal
acts should be stopped, as they destroy properties and the moral
fibre of society. The rule of law is the basic tenet of this
government and, as such, we cannot afford any conduct contrary to
this.
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Nonetheless, singleness and cohesiveness of purpose is what gives
us the collective strength and ability to move our country forward
and reposition the inherent capacity required to sharpen our
continuous analysis and guide the course of action. Pent-up
energies in society should also be released to ensure maximum
participation by communities in police forums and community safety
forums for protection and safety endeavours, thus finding
solutions to the challenges of crime.
Therefore, any intellectual and short-sighted assault on the ANC
cannot change the fact that we are advancing a course, informed by
social transformation, within a realm of possibilities. Men and
women in uniform have laid down their lives in the service of the
nation. At this point in time, it is befitting to dip our banner
in memory of those great countrymen and –women and convey our
messages of condolences to their loved ones and families. May
their souls rest in peace, whilst we grapple with this complex
matter of bringing peace and stability to our country. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson and hon Minister, you do not have to be
a specialist of note in order to pinpoint the impact of crime in
South Africa. Crime mesmerises our communities. Fathers and
mothers, husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, cousins,
uncles, aunts, grannies – all targets of crime – are killed and
leave behind unprecedented levels of sorrow in their loved ones.
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Breadwinners in families are killed and leave behind destitute
families. Family lives are totally destroyed by the effects of
crime in our communities.
Our economy, already suffering the negative effects of shrinking
world markets, suffers a double blow at the effects of the reign
of crime. With South Africa being seen as the thriving capital of
Africa‘s economy, the potential of attracting criminals is also
heightened. As long as the country‘s ability to apprehend
offenders, prosecute them successfully, and lock them behind bars
thoroughly, is not strengthened, the country will continue to
attract more and more criminals.
The rule of law must apply equally to all South Africans and its
visitors, in the same manner, irrespective of status or one‘s
standing in society. Unfortunately, in the past, wrong precedents
have been set in the country. Unfortunately, selective application
of strict legal measures in the judicial system has set the wrong
precedent. Unfortunately, public figures in South Africa have, in
many instances, failed to set a positive example to the youth of
our country and communities. Unfortunately, public figures and
those in the high echelons of our Public Service have failed to
protect the very public purse that they are mandated to safeguard.
In some instances, this has happened with little or no effects of
follow-up or punishable consequences. To bring the country back in
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line with effective rule of law and respect for justice is a
mammoth task.
Be that as it may, in fighting crime the powers that be should
keep tightening their belts. One of the most important
considerations by investors in taking an investment decision is
stability of a country and minimal crime levels. As such, if crime
is not minimised in our country, investors will look elsewhere.
This means job losses to our citizens. The high level of
unemployment in turn also contributes to increased crime levels
because people then become desperate.
Because of high levels of crime, the moral fibre of our society
has been distorted. Grannies and uncles rape young girls and get
away with it easily. Women are abused, raped and killed. Violent
crimes affecting women and children have become the order of the
day. This is all because moral decay is at high levels in most of
our communities.
The IFP says South Africa needs a government that will be tough on
crime in the country. The IFP says South Africa needs a government
that will not be a friend of criminals. South Africa needs a
government that will be tough on the implementation of the rule of
law. The IFP applauds those men and women in blue who continue to
provide a dedicated service under very trying circumstances.
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Lastly, I am honoured to speak right after the hon Dickson, a
long-time friend and colleague. Thank you.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister, the
question here today is not whether crime has an impact on our
daily lives in South Africa but rather how does crime impact on
our daily lives and the quality thereof. Abram Maslow already
indicated back in 1943 in a paper titled, A theory of human
motivation, that safety is the second most basic need of human
beings in our hierarchy of needs.
The latest crime statistics announced by the SA Police Service
revealed that our country is in a crisis. Indeed a very dangerous
place to live in, let alone to try and make a living. An article
on the Times LIVE on 10 September 2016 supports this statement,
and I quote,
South Africa struggles with very high levels of crime and
violence.
As far as the murder rate is concerned the news paper states, and
I quote,
South Africa ranks in the top 10 worst countries that report
statistics ... The murder rate has risen nationally for the
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fourth year in a row from 33 per 100 000 citizens in 2014-15 to
34 per 100 000 last year.
The newspaper further states that the rate of increase has
accelerated and South Africa may be in for several years of
increase.
We, as the DA, acknowledge the fact that the police have managed
to bring down certain levels of crime, but South Africa remains a
dangerous place to live in. Indeed, South African immigrants are
frequently quoted as naming crime, and violent crime in
particular, as a major factor in their decision to leave the
country.
Crime impacts the lives of all South Africans in many ways
including their safety, family life, recreation, freedom of
movement, employment, health, business, investment, economic
growth, etc. We must also understand that it is not only criminals
that have contributed to South Africa‘s tarnished reputation as a
crime hotspot, some of our own politicians and prominent persons
have and continue to tarnish the reputation of our beloved
country. The best known example is none other than our
controversial President. In June of this year, the North Gauteng
High Court dismissed ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, can you
take your seat. Hon Mohai?
Mr S J MOHAI: House Chair, I request you to rule that the hon
member is tarnishing the reputation by insinuating that the
President is directly contributing to the crime in the country. It
is not consistent with the rules of the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, did you say
that the President directly contributes to the crime in the
country? Or go back to what you have written there.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: I said ... I wrote here, House Chair ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No don‘t explain, read what
you have written. [Interjections.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: No, I am going to read.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Some of our own politicians and prominent
persons have and continue to tarnish the reputation of our beloved
country. That is the word, House Chairperson. [Interjections.]
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An Hon MEMBER: And the President? [Interjections.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: The best known ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members, order.
Continue reading, it doesn‘t end there.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: The best known example – thank you for the
opportunity to repeat it, House Chairperson – is none other than
our controversial President. In June of this year the North
Gauteng High Court dismissed the National Prosecuting Authority‘s
application for leave ... [Interjections.]
An Hon MEMBER: It was not against the President ...
[Interjections.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: ... appeal in the matter relating to 783
charges of fraud, corruption, racketeering, and money laundering
levelled against the President. That is a court ruling; I did not
just decide to come and say it here. It is a court ruling.
[Interjections.]
An Hon MEMBER: It was not against the President.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: The building of his Nkandla ...
[Interjections.] ... House Chairperson, can I be protected?
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order members. Can you
continue? You are protected. No, let us not drown him.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: The building of his Nkandla palace of shame ...
[Interjections.] ... has made him even more infamous for misusing
state funds to enrich himself.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: My colleague earlier mentioned several
discredited former law enforcement officials for instance, Lt Gen
Mdluli and Mkhwanazi - all names which are now forever associated
with elaborate schemes to shield President Zuma from
accountability. We can now add the name of Lt Gen Berning Ntlemeza
who, by Minister Nhleko‘s own admission, was appointed as National
Head of the Directorate for Priority crime Investigation, known as
the Hawks, more than a year ago without informing Parliament. The
Minister has now asked ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, can you
take your seat? Hon Wana.
Ms T WANA: Through you, House Chairperson, can the speaker take a
question or maybe ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, are you
ready to take ... [Interjections.]
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Ms T WANA: I am not yet finished. Through you, House Chairperson,
I would like to know whether the speaker ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, you can‘t do that. That
is wrong and you know. Hon Terblanche, are you ready to take a
question?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Not at the moment.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, he is not ready to take
a question. Can you conclude, hon Terblanche?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: ... condone the transgression of the SA Police
Service Act and to rubberstamp his appointment, retrospectively.
No doubt, the ANC caucus will come to his rescue and vote
accordingly.
Minister, I must admit that I am a bit disappointed with you.
Earlier this year you were here and we were discussing the police
budget. We said very explicitly what we think ... I personally
said explicitly what I think needs to be done and that has
apparently not been done. Apparently you are still running around
looking for answers. Another question to you, sir: What are you
going to do now about the ruling of the court on Tuesday – the
McBride case. Do you intend to resign or merely ignore that as
well? That is very serious.
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The hon Vawda said that the ANC must be ashamed and I concur with
that. Twenty two years ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Terblanche, I am afraid
your time has expired.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr C HATTTINGH: Hon House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Hattingh.
Mr C HATTTINGH: Hon House Chair, we are not a very big group so I
think it is appropriate that we should try and pronounce each
other‘s surnames correctly. There is a difference between
Terblanche and Terre‘Blanche. Terre‘Blanche is someone who lived
in Ventersdorp some years ago.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): That is not a point of
order. Can you take your seat? [Laughter.]
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, Minister, special delegates here,
members of this august House, I had a speech prepared but I
decided, because of the tempo and the credence of this discussion,
to park that prepared speech.
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The hon Terblanche comes to this podium and makes an assertion.
South Africa is a constitutional democracy. The rule of law is
sacrosanct in South Africa. The final arbiters of legality in this
country are the courts. However, everybody in a court of law is
given recourse. So, allow the process in the department to take
its turn so that you can make a decision.
The reason I decided ...
Mr W F FABER: Chair, I know that this hon member of my ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No! Hon ... hon ...
Mr W F FABER: ... [Inaudible.] ... will take a question. A
reasonable question. Will he take it? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order, members! Hon Faber,
can you take your seat so that I can address you? [Interjections.]
Order, members! I don‘t need assistance. [Interjections.] No. I‘ll
deal with that. Don‘t worry. Hon Faber, you can‘t debate with the
speaker at the podium. Continue, hon Nthebe.
Mr B G NTHEBE: As I was saying, Chair, I stand before you as a ...
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I asked if the speaker would take a
question.
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Yes, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): He‘s ready. Ask your
question. [Interjections.] Order, members! [Interjections.] Are
you formulating the question? [Laughter.]
Mr W F FABER: No, no, no, Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order! [Interjections.] He
is ready to take your question.
Mr W F FABER: Can I ask the speaker to protect me from the
Chairperson, as the Chairperson is attacking me! Chairperson,
through you, I would like to ask the speaker a question. He was
just stating now that the law must take its course. My question
is: Is it the taxpayer that must pay every time the Minister goes
to court? What is his view on that - that the taxpayer has to pay
when the Minister has to go to court all the time?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Faber. Hon
Nthebe, you heard the question. Respond to the question.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, firstly let me take just two minutes to
school the hon Faber. I am taking his question out of sympathy,
because it is not relevant to the discussion. [Interjections.] Let
me assure him, I said, when I started, that South Africa is a
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constitutional democracy. Courts in this country are final
arbiters of legality. When a determination has been made by a
court, we, as members, whether of this House, or society, broadly,
make our own assertions. That does not assume the status of
truthfulness.
Mr W F FABER: ... [Inaudible.] ... of the taxpayer‘s money!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber! Hon Nthebe, I am
sorry. Hon Faber, refrain from debating with the hon Nthebe. You
have asked your question. Now, the hon Nthebe is responding. So,
just listen to the response and keep quiet. Can you continue, hon
Nthebe?
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, I stand before you as a layman and this is
how I understand the correlation between crime prevention, law
enforcement and the justice system. In our country, what we seek
to do – and this is what the hon Khawula captured so diligently –
is to see positive, successful investigation being done ...
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, I would like to ask, through
you, if the gentleman would take another question.
[Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon members! Thank you,
you may take your seat. Hon Nthebe, are you prepared to take
another question?
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, let me take another question. [Laughter.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chair, it‘s a very quick one. Since the
gentleman is analysing law now ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, no, no, hon Terblanche!
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: ... my question, Sir: What are your legal
qualifications?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, no, hon Terblanche. You
can‘t refer to the hon Nthebe as ―since a gentleman‖. He‘s an hon
member of the House.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: I am sorry, Chairperson, my mistake. I want to
know from him ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Refer to him correctly.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: I want to know from the hon Nthebe what his
legal qualifications are, Sir. Thank you.
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, hon Terblanche, I have just said that
I am a layman, and my understanding of the rule of law, law
enforcement and the justice system that we want to pursue, as a
country ...
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, I would like to know if this layman
then has the right to mislead the country, the people watching on
the television, because that is his point of view.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Labuschagne, you
can‘t do that. No, you can‘t stand up and ask a question.
Continue, hon Nthebe.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, as I was saying, I‘m a layman and my
understanding is as correct as what the hon Khawula was
mentioning. [Interjections.] I wanted to quote from the National
Development Plan, NDP, and I appreciate what the hon Plato was
saying. This is the spirit and intent which I want to appreciate
his discussion out of the proceedings today.
South Africa belongs to all its people and the future of our
country is our collective future. Making it work is a collective
responsibility. This is what the NDP states. I am raising this
because when we started, we were very political, but during the
course of the discussion, we all agreed that it takes all the
primary players, whether you are from business, civil society, or
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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wherever, to make sure that we all get our hands dirty and ensure
that crime prevention in this country becomes a reality. In the
absence of that, we will come here and lament, and not get the
statistics down to where we want them.
The hon Michalakis comes here and says there is no distinction
between serious and petty crime. However, the intent and purpose
of giving the statistics is for the sole purpose that we give ...
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member
is misleading the House. I did not say that there is no
distinction between the two. I said the Minister, when referring
to the fact that crime is down, did not make a distinction. The
hon member should listen, because he is misleading the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Michalakis, no. You
can‘t do that.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: He is misleading the House!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Michalakis, you are
debating with him.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: He is misleading the House, and Chair, he should
withdraw!
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are debating with him.
Can you continue, hon Nthebe?
Mr B G NTHEBE: Furthermore, hon member, you came here and said the
reduction in the statistics that was mentioned by the Minister was
not true. Let me school you. A reduction does not equate to the
nonexistence of crime. It says there‘s a reduction. It does not
say there is no crime at all. That‘s what you are missing.
Safety and security, like you said, is not a wish. It‘s a
concerted effort by all the role-players to ensure that crime
prevention works in this country. So, we cannot sit here and wish
that crime will come down, one day. We must all get our hands
dirty and all the primary role-players must come together to
ensure this becomes a reality.
There is one thing that we, as hon members, are doing incorrectly.
When the national government pumps resources into the Western
Cape, we claim victories. When there are shortfalls in the Western
Cape systems, it is national government‘s fault. You blame them
now for the collapse in public safety and security in this
province, but you are not taking credibility out of the huge
development investment that is taking place here. You are claiming
all the reductions in the unemployment rate in this province that
has been done by the national government.
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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I think it‘s ... the hon Vawda came here and said we needed to
deal with facilities. Now, hon Vawda, you can pump facilities as
much as you want to. If there is no concerted effort from the
primary role-players, you will not get it right. You said the
police must be empowered, but the police will not act in isolation
with the broader community. We need all the role-players to come
together and make sure ...
You also mentioned land reform. I want to agree with you. In fact,
more than six speakers here agreed on the socioeconomic impact of
crime, particularly in the poorer communities. However, what you
are missing is about land reform. You, as a party, did not
participate in the land Expropriation Bill that we are passing
lately. [Applause.] When you then come here and talk about land
reform, we want to urge you to go and check your Constitution,
section 25(4)(b). Property is not limited to land, and therefore,
property ...
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, on a point of order: What is the
point of relevance to crime in terms of what the speaker is now
addressing?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, you are
out of order. The speaker talked about the issue of land in
relation to crime and the hon Nthebe is responding. Hon Nthebe,
continue.
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Mr B G NTHEBE: We want to agree that, in solidarity with those who
are incorruptible, the upright men and women in blue, we must also
appreciate their efforts. We must all give them our utmost support
so that we continue to reap the rewards and reduce crime.
[Interjections.]
However, it is not an issue of wishful thinking. It‘s about how
all of us, in spite of our own political orientations, go out,
make sure that our communities ... the hon Masemola put it nicely
by saying the community policing forum must be able to be
functional in our own communities. I can quote to you, hon Faber,
what the RDP stated in 1994 about the police and stability in our
country - the ANC has always been consistent over the years. It is
not an issue that we are deciding on today.
We also want to remind hon members that at the Morogoro
conference, there was a resolution that stated we appreciate where
we come from, we know this land was conquered by force and was
ruled by force.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I cannot understand that this speaker
is talking about stability when his own commissioner was ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber!
Mr W F FABER: I don‘t understand this. That is not stability.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber, you are getting
a last warning because of your frivolous points of order.
[Interjections.] Continue, hon Nthebe.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, members of this House must not be surprised
when the hon Faber wants to disown the former police commissioner.
They did the same with Thuli Madonsela. They did the same with
Mokgoeng Mokgoeng. They did the same with the now incumbent Public
Protector. They will do the same in the future. So, it‘s not an
isolated incident that he now wants to isolate himself from the
parliamentary process and wants to apportion blame on the majority
party.
We must be patient with them, however, because when I started, I
said I am also a victim of crime. As I stand here, I also nurse
injuries from crime, but I will not apportion blame for crime and
instability in this country on an individual.
Therefore, we must appreciate our role as a whole, that, in our
unity, we must be able to move forward, but provide tangible
responsibilities to ourselves to make sure that crime does not
survive in this country. If we are going to come here and relate
to the issues of crime in this part of the country that is not
working, hon Faber, we are not going to the ... [Interjections.]
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Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, could you please refer to the speaker
to speak through the Chairperson and not directly to me, as I am
sitting here, please? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Yes. The point of order
is sustained. You can‘t speak directly to the hon Faber. Continue,
and speak through me, hon Nthebe. Even if you are addressing the
hon Faber, do it through me.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, through you, some of us sitting here are
beneficiaries of the system that we are trying to undo now. So, it
would be quite tricky for others to accept this cruel reality,
too.
The hon Wana was quite truthful. Mama, in most cases, crime seeks
to take a patriarchal path. Most of the crime victims remain the
hewers of wood and the drawers of water, right on the periphery of
the periphery. We acknowledge that, but we are doing much to
ensure that there must be something that is done. We continue to
encourage those who guard our own communities, who come together
when meetings are called to ensure that such matters are addressed
and say it is only in our unity that we will be able to defeat
such a monster.
For those who are hiding behind the inability of our own inability
to come as a solid force, their days are numbered. We have
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confidence in our police. We have confidence in our judicial
system and we know of the gaps that are there. We have the
capacity to close them and plug them off, so that, in the future,
we tap into the possibility of a South Africa that is free, and
free of crime.
When we come here – through you, Chair - it‘s a pity that other
members who sit her on my extreme right did not even talk about
white-collar crime. We know that constituency. Thank you, Chair.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chair, hon members, thank you
very much. The interesting part with this debate is the
convergence that I could pick up right across the different, sort
of political formations. I think that is very interesting; for me
that is positive. I think we need to build on to that positive
approach. For example, hon Ximbi spoke on the question of the
apartheid history and the colonial history and how that impacts
the social behaviour and levels of poverty and inequality in our
society - which I think is correct. But the same point was also
amplified differently by hon Vawda from the EFF. The only
difference is that he apportions the backlog to the ANC and yet he
knows one fundamental fact that for over three and a half
centuries, one will not be able to reverse the impact of such
concerted sort of system that was imposed on our people. We need
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to acknowledge that because failure to do so shows that we are
really not being practical and realistic and so on.
This convergence between hon Vawda and hon Ximbi is also to be
found in the articulations that MEC Plato made here. In other
words, we are getting much more closer in contextualising what our
problem is as a South African society. I am saying it is positive
in a sense that builds itself into a stepping stone for us to be
able to find tangible and adequate solutions to the problem.
The problem I really have in this debate is hon Michalakis who in
the first instance uses our own statistics. He is mentioning the
4,9% increase in the murder rate and so forth and says that we are
giving false impressions. It is not false impressions that crime
over the ten-year-period has been decreasing in this country. It
is also not false impressions that the broad categories of other
crimes cases in South Africa that has been registered decreased.
It is a scientific fact. But it is also a scientific fact that we
have had an increase in the murder rate. We have had an increase
in the broad category of contact crimes and so on. But then, he
accentuates his point and that‘s what unreasonability can do
sometimes. He then says that visitors from overseas stand a very
good chance of being murdered in this country. Who in his
reasonable mind will just approach somebody walking on the
pavement and stab or shoot him or her to death. It never happens.
But the fact of the matter is that the actual sociological outlook
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of crime around issues of murder in this country happens amongst
acquaintances – people who drink together, people who socialise
together and people who live together.
I dealt with the question of the research work that we did. That
clearly indicates that this is the problem that we have in South
Africa and it‘s about social behaviour and its patterns that have
to be confronted by society as a whole - not necessarily
exclusively or by the police in isolation; but society will have
to do something with regards to that. He also tells untruth and
says I stopped the disciplinary processes relating to Mr Mdluli
and yet he knows very well that I wasn‘t here. I wasn‘t a Minister
of Police. It‘s precisely because young as he is - which I find
very baffling - he still suffers from the old white colonial
mentality that black people look the same ... [Interjections.] You
know, because I happen to be a Nathi Nhleko - so, a Nathi Nhleko
is equivalent to another Nathi and that‘s really a serious problem
because in the history of this country and the history of this
continent, that‘s how the colonialists perceived us. We need to
correct that and you are still very young. You can‘t suffer from
such backwardness. He then says that politics must be taken out of
the police, I do not know what that means.
The SA Police Service is governed by the Constitution and by law.
Now, we police everything and everyone in this country, including
your political rallies, by the way. That‘s what we do because as a
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service, you can‘t just be a partisan in either form or otherwise.
If we have to do what we are supposed to do; it has to be
thoroughly done. And that‘s simply how it is. I do not know what
is meant by the politics being taken out of the police, unless I
have to be educated by you, sir - in terms of what you actually
implied.
The last person is Mr Terblanche. Mr Terblanche, firstly - maybe
after the session, you will tell me what it is that you instructed
me to do, sir, because you also didn‘t just get into that. The
next thing you asked me was about Mr McBride‘s Constitutional
Court case. The starting point is that before you even delve into
any discussion around that, you should read the Constitutional
Court judgement.
The Constitutional Court judgement did not say that no
disciplinary action should be taken against Mr McBride. It stated
that it does not have a problem with the position that was taken
by the Minister, for instance, in suspending Mr McBride - but it
has a problem with the constitutionality of a valid law as we
speak. This is the law that was passed by this Parliament, section
6 of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act. It said
that it wouldn‘t want to rely on it and that is why, amongst other
things, they read section 17DA and another section of the SA
Police Act into the Independent Police Investigative Directorate
Act. They read one law into another law because in their own
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opinion the valid law that the Minister relied on to take action
was not constitutional and it was not the action to be taken by
the Minister, for that matter.
I think before you delve into these particular issues I would
suggest that it is important to do proper research. You should
read, correctly so, before you come and articulate on matters of
this nature. Hon Gaehler, I agree with you, the reason why you
don‘t take drugs or smoke dagga, for example, is not because the
police said you shouldn‘t smoke dagga but it is about your
upbringing. It is in terms of who raised you up and groomed you
into the kind of a man you are today. That‘s the issue. I am not
saying that as the police we shouldn‘t increase our efforts in the
fight against drugs for instance, but there is a problem with the
social defects that we must also attend to. It is not cool to take
drugs and that‘s what we need to teach our children. For me it
would be abdication of responsibility to think that it‘s the
police who must teach our children not to binge themselves in
alcohol and not take drugs. We should also be doing something. We
need this collective effort that the other hon members referred
to. I firmly agree with you.
This disparity between urban and rural areas is a historical fact.
I live in a rural area for example, and I know what it means. I
know the fact that within a 30km radius I can‘t access a police
station. It is a historical fact but we are taking steps to
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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reverse it but we are not going to be able to reverse it overnight
- of course it is going to take quite a concerted effort, amongst
others. The key question is that, simply, if we are to have a
peaceful society - a stable society to raise our children in a
normal kind of environment - all we need is to bend all our
efforts and society together and fight against crime. Thank you
very much. [Applause.]
The Council adjourned at 18:49
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159
(1)
Judicial Matters Amendment Bill, 2016, submitted by the Minister of Justice and
Constitutional Services.
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
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Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Services and the
Select Committee on Security and Justice.
National Council of Provinces
The Chairperson
1.
Membership of Committees
(a)
Change in the Membership of Select Committees of the National Council of Provinces
(NCOP):
Select Committee on Economic and Business Development (Economic Development,
Energy, Labour, Transport, Public Works and Small Business Development)
Appointed: Hon. Dr H. E. Mateme (ANC: Limpopo) (alternate)
Appointed: Hon. T. Motara (ANC: Gauteng) (Alternate)
Select Committee on Trade and International Relations (Trade and Industry,
Tourism and International Relations)
Appointed: Hon. Dr H. E. Mateme (ANC: Limpopo) (alternate)
Appointed: Hon. T. Motara (ANC: Gauteng) (Alternate)
21 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 151 of 151
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister in The Presidency
(a)
2016 Second Quarterly Report of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee
(NCACC), tabled in terms of section 23(1)(c) of the National Conventional Arms
Control Act, 2002 (Act No 41 of 2002).
2.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Development Bank of Southern Africa (DBSA)
for 2015-16, including the Report Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
and Performance Information for 2015-16.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Council of Provinces
Please see pages 3-25 of the ATCs.
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