Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 20 Sep 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
TUESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:02.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to
observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that
there will not be any motions, accept for those printed on the Order
Paper in the name to the Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I move that,
notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the
Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council considers
the draft resolution on the establishment of an ad hoc joint
committee in terms of Joint Rule 138.
I will not go to the background information. It is as given there;
it is recorded. That committee should report to the National Council
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 2 of 177
of Provinces by 10 November 2016, in accordance with the provisions
of the code.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
The Chief Whip of the Council, moved: That the Council -
(1)
notes –
(a)
the findings and recommendation in the Second Report of
Joint Committee on Ethics and Members‘ Interests
regarding the alleged failure by the Leader of the
Opposition, Mr M A Maimane, to disclose a certain
sponsorship he received in support of his nomination as
party leader at the elective conference of the Democratic
Alliance in 2015; and
(b)
the subsequent ruling of the Western Cape High Court in
the matter Maimane and other v Chairperson of the Joint
Committee on Ethics and Members‘ Interests, Parliament
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 3 of 177
and others dated 23 June 2016, which found, inter alia,
that none of the members of the Joint Committee on Ethics
and Members‘ Interests who participated in the decision
taken on 17 February 2016 and/or 16 March 2016 may
participate in the reconsideration of the matter.
(2)
resolves, subject to the concurrence of the National
Assembly, to establish an ad hoc joint committee in terms of
Joint Rule 138, the committee to -
(a)
reconsider the allegation of nondisclosure by the Leader
of the Opposition;
(b)
consist of 14 members of the National Assembly, as
follows: African National Congress 8, Democratic Alliance
3, Economic Freedom Fighters 1, and other parties 2; and
9 members of the National Council of Provinces, having
due regard for the judgment of the Western Cape High
Court;
(c)
notwithstanding any other joint rule to the contrary,
exercise those powers and functions in the following
Joint Rules that it may deem necessary for the
performance of its task, including powers and functions
specifically assigned to the Joint Committee on Ethics
and Members‘ Interests by these rules –
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
i.
PAGE: 4 of 177
Joint Rule 32, which provides for the general powers
of a joint committee;
ii.
Joint Rule 124(1)(a), which provides for the power to
implement the Code of Ethical Conduct and Disclosure
of Members‘ Interests for Assembly and permanent
Council members (the Code) as set out in the Schedule
to the Joint Rules;
iii.
Joint Rule 124(1)(e), which provides for the power to
perform the other functions and exercise the other
powers reasonably assigned to the Joint Committee on
Ethics and Members‘ Interests in the Code and in terms
of resolutions adopted in both Houses;
iv.
Joint Rule 125, which provides that meetings must be
held in closed session when a matter affecting a
specific Assembly or Council member is being
considered and the matter is regarded to be
confidential;
v.
Joint Rule 127, which provides that each committee
member and alternative member must swear or affirm,
before either the Speaker or the Chairperson of the
Council, depending on the House of which that person
is a member, to comply with the requirements of
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 5 of 177
confidentiality set out in the Code, as well as each
member of staff assigned for the work of the
committee; and
vi.
Joint Rule 126, which provides that a question is
decided when there is agreement on the question among
the majority of members present, provided at least
half of its members are present; and
(d)
report to the National Council of Provinces by 10
November 2016, in accordance oaf the provisions of the
Code.
Declarations of Vote:
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, the Western Cape wants to draw
the attention of the Council to the fact that the ethics committee
is the committee that has to rule and to be very ethical in their
decisions. It is an embarrassment to Parliament that the Leader of
the Opposition had to go to court to get a ruling on certain
procedures and processes that have been followed by the ethics
committee, while a lot of members in the ethical committee, while
the committee was in sitting, pointed to the fact that they were not
following the rules and procedures.
Therefore, the Western Cape declares that we support this motion and
that we will really have an overview on the subcommittee that is
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 6 of 177
going to be established not to follow the same processes. This is
not in the good interest of the National Council of Provinces, the
National Assembly and the parliamentarians, in general. Thank you.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, it is very important that members of
the public, particularly those who purport to be high and above
standard, also follow suit. To contest on the basis of procedure and
rules is a question of evading the reality of the matter. The
reality of the matter is that a requirement to disclose anything is
incumbent upon any member who is under oath and who believes and
always shouts and dances about anticorruption, ethics and so.
It is an indictment on the Leader of the Opposition, for it not to
have been disclosed, even if it was one cent. Therefore, to hide
behind procedure and rules is unacceptable. We believe that he must
live a clean life. He must lead in that direction because he
requires everybody else to do so.
If Parliament can, it must make sure that the matter is done fairly,
procedurally and ethically, as it is supposed to be.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 7 of 177
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
GOVERNANCE
Cluster 3
MINISTERS:
Municipal infrastructure backlog
129. Mr
M
J
Mohapi
(Free
State:
ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
(a) What is the current backlog in the municipal infrastructure
and
(b)
when
will
this
backlog
be
eradicated
furnished)?
(details
CO343E
The MINISTER OF COOPORATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: A ke
leboge sebaka se ke se filweng Motlatsamodulasetulo. [Deputy
Chairperson, thank you for affording me this opportunity.]
Maybe I should indicate that the current backlog of municipal
infrastructure as reflected in the Statistics SA Community Survey
Report of 2016 is as follows. On water supply, accessibility
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 8 of 177
backlogs for pipe water supply stands at 4,3 million households,
which is equal to 26%. On safe drinking water backlogs, the
statistic stands at 2,5 households which is equal to 15%.
On sanitation, households without improved sanitation ... this means
the national sanitation backlog is at 5,4 million, which translates
to 32%.
On electricity, the electricity backlog of households without
connection is about 2 million or 2,145 million which is equal to
13,34%.
On solid waste or refuse removal, the backlog is 4,51 million
households and it equates to 25,8%. The backlog in this instance
relates to an approximation of households that have their own
disposal without supervision.
On roads, the estimated road plan backlog is 69 200 km and this
includes paved roads, gravel roads and tracks, which is equivalent
to 26,33%.
But now, these are just statistics from Statistics SA. According to
our medium-term strategic framework 2014-19, the infrastructure
backlog eradication targets for the various sectors indicated above
is planned as follows.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 9 of 177
On water supply, 90% of households will have access to reliable
water services by 2019. Of course, the remaining 10% plus growth in
population will be addressed as part of the 2030 Millennium
Development Goals of universal access to services.
On improved sanitation, 90% of households will have access to
functional sanitation services by 2019. The remaining 10% plus
growth in population will be addressed as part of the 2030
Millennium Development Goals of universal access to services.
On electricity, a total of 1,4 million additional households will be
connected to the grid and an additional 105 000 to non-grid energy
supply by 2019. Ninety per cent of all households are expected to
have access to electricity by 2030, with the rest making use of nongrid solutions.
On solid waste management or waste removal, 80% of households will
have access to an acceptable refuse removal service by 2019. The
remaining 20% plus growth in population will be addressed as part of
the 2030 Millennium Development Goals of universal access to
services.
On roads and storm water, in 2015-16, the Department of Transport
made a provision of R12 billion to deal with the road
infrastructure-related work in order to address existing backlogs by
2018-19. This allocated amount will eradicate the targeted backlog
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 10 of 177
of 69 200 km. The same amount should be allocated with a certain
annual percentage increase up to 2030 in line with the National
Development Plan, NDP. Thank you.
Mr J M MTHETHWA: Thank you, hon Minister, for the satisfactory
answers. My follow up will be ... Hon Minister, any penalties to
those municipalities that failed to spend their Municipal
Infrastructure Grants, MIG?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Who
failed to spend their energy? I didn‘t get the question clearly.
[Interjections.] Oh, of course, the MIG!
As you are aware, as it happened just recently, there is obviously a
provision for MIG to be allocated to those municipalities that are
in need, as compared to those who can‘t spend their MIG. But that is
not a priority for our Ministry. Our priority currently is to make
sure that municipalities are capacitated appropriately so that they
can expand on these important allocations. Remember, as we reallocate, we deny our people the most needed services.
So, that is not a priority. Our priority for now, through the
Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, is to intervene in
areas where we think there are capacity problems. I will cite just
one good example where we intervened successfully. In Sekhukhune,
they nearly missed an allocation of not less than R40 million for it
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 11 of 177
to be re-allocated. We intervened through the Misa intervention
approach and, as a result, that money was utilised as expected. As
we speak, services have been rendered to our people in the affected
area.
Mr C HATTINGH: Deputy Chair, I would like to thank the hon Minister
for the comprehensive response. Given the hon Minister‘s vast
experience in the financial arena, I would like to know whether the
Minister will be able to translate the houses without etcetera into
monetary terms. What are we talking about? How much money are we
talking about? We are talking about 2030. How many years will it
take to eradicate this backlog that you have just explained to us?
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
[Inaudible.] ... elucidated, Deputy Chairperson. Our medium-term
expenditure framework is very clear on the targets and I have
definitely highlighted those targets.
Obviously, from an oversight perspective, it would be important for
to us to follow up on the execution of those targets as outlined in
our medium-term strategic framework.
But also, what is key here, as clearly cited in the framework, is
the provision of resources to execute. So it is very important that,
as we follow up, we also take that into consideration.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 12 of 177
But the targets are very clear. And this is definitely something
that will have ... I mean ... including Members of Parliament will
have to follow up and make sure that we stick to those targets as
outlined in our Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that a follow-up question?
Mr C HATTINGH: Deputy Chair, I asked a direct question and the
Minister did not respond. I asked for an answer in monetary terms –
that is actually rands and cents.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was worried about that part of
your question. You even say, with the Minister‘s background of
having been in finance ... [Interjections.] The minute we get to
that, it then changes the whole question.
So the principal question is about the infrastructure backlogs, and
the Minister, I think, has done his best to respond to that
question.
Can I protect him from being put on the spot ... [Inaudible.] ... to
a question that might not be relevant. Hon Julius?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair ...
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 13 of 177
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh ... I didn‘t ... Okay, fine,
now that I have already called you, can I take you off ...
[Inaudible.] Is that a point of order, hon Julius?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Yes, Deputy Chairperson. I almost ... there is
another point of order. But I think it is not putting on the spot.
It is holding the Minister accountable. The question was
straightforward monetary value. The Minister didn‘t answer it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, if you can refer to
your Rules, they will explain to you ... especially when it comes to
questions that need statistics ... very clear. So let‘s not get into
... Hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, what we do and say
in this House forms the record of this House. It will go into
Hansard until the end of time. The order is ... the Minister has
responded. The response may not be what the hon member was
expecting, but the Minister has responded.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, I‘ve made a ruling on that
matter. Hon Rayi?
Mr M RAYI: Deputy Chair, my follow-up question is whether there is
any role played by the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 14 of 177
Committee, PICC, with regard to assisting on the backlogs as well as
ensuring the monitoring of the spending of the MIG.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes
indeed, there is a role that is played by the said structure but
also let me indicate that this role is played to complement, among
other things, initiatives like the MIG, the regional bulk
infrastructure grant, as well as the municipal water infrastructure
grant. So, definitely, there is a collaborative effort within
spheres but also within funding sources to address the
infrastructure backlog that is facing our country.
Mr M CHETTY: Hon Minister, National Treasury resorted to withholding
the equitable share from certain councils that were in arrears to
Eskom. This was unconstitutional and led to these municipalities
being placed under further financial constraints, which resulted in
the delivery of basic services to our communities being sacrificed.
What measures, if any, has your department put in place to prevent
this occurrence from happening again, what measures, if any, has
your department put in place to ensure that these failing
municipalities comply and address their non-payment to Eskom?
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: As
you are all aware, the incident that has been referred to led to the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 15 of 177
re-allocation of the equitable share that was withheld from affected
municipalities in the previous financial year.
But, equally important for members to note is the fact that the
Department of Co-operative Government and Traditional Affairs,
working together with National Treasury, and of course the
Department of Energy, initiated a process of engaging affected
municipalities where, in those meetings, the development of a
repayment plan was prioritised but also the issue of addressing the
real problems that are affecting those municipalities or the
problems that led to those municipalities not sticking to the
repayment arrangement originally made, were entertained. As we are
speaking now, as you are all aware, we haven‘t heard of any
potential action from Eskom on those municipalities because of this
constant engagement that is currently taking place between the
affected municipalities under the leadership of the Department of
Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs working jointly with
the Department of Energy. The Department of Public Enterprises is
also on board. So, definitely, there is work that is being done with
affected municipalities.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: That
brings us to the end of Question 129.
Before we proceed to the next Question, I have received a note from
the Chief Whip of the Council, requesting me to acknowledge hon
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 16 of 177
Khosini who replaces hon Mokoena, and then to also acknowledge the
presence of a special delegate from Gauteng, hon Sarupen.
I thought someone would rise on a point that he must jump in the
House as a form of welcome. I can see the members are a bit ...
[Inaudible.] ... therefore you should think for us. But you are
welcome.
Disciplining of councillors
132. Mr
M
Chetty
(KwaZulu-Natal:
DA)
asked
the
Minister
of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
(1)
Whether,
with
reference
to
the
unconstituted
Jozini
Municipal Council, he will discipline the councillors of a
certain political party (name furnished) who (a) staged a
walkout during the election of the mayor and (b) failed to
attend the subsequent meeting called by the municipality;
(2)
whether there will be any intervention by his department in
this regard; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details?
CO346E
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chairperson, the answer to the first part of the Question is,
No, because, as you are all aware, the method for instituting
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 17 of 177
discipline against public representatives, of course, is a matter
assigned to political parties. I must indicate that part (b) of the
Question is also not applicable because of that particular
provision.
On the issue of the question on the intervention, as you are all
aware, the intervention is defined in the Constitution of our
Republic. It is the responsibility of the provincial executive
council to deal with a municipality that has failed to execute its
obligation. I think that provision, section 139(1)(a) and (b), is a
familiar one.
In this particular instance, I must indicate that the provincial
Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, led
by MEC Nomusa Dube-Ncube, has submitted the following information to
the department. The Jozini Municipal Council met, firstly, on
18 August to elect a Speaker. However, the result was a tie, with 20
councillors for the ANC and 20 councillors for the IFP. Before the
presiding officer could determine the results ballot, the ANC-led
component of the council, 20 councillors in this regard, requested a
caucus, which was granted by the presiding officer. These
councillors did not return to the Chamber, which resulted in the
meeting not forming a quorum and having to be adjourned.
I must indicate that, as the Department of Co-operative Governance
and Traditional Affairs, we immediately followed this up with the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 18 of 177
MEC to check on what was happening. Indeed, the MEC was on the
ground, establishing what was happening and striving to realise a
solution, working together with a collective of public
representatives in Jozini Local Municipality.
As a result, the meeting was subsequently held on 16 September, and
all the office bearers were elected. As we speak, we have an
indication from the MEC‘s office that the district municipality will
also be constituted on Thursday, 22 September. So, by 22 September,
Jozini and the district will be constituted accordingly, as the last
municipality in the country to do so. Thank you very much.
Mr M CHETTY: Deputy Chair, I am glad the hon Minister made reference
in his response to the hon MEC for Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs. To enlighten you, the Jozini Local Municipality
will only be constituted, not at the second instance, but at the
third instance. The first occasion was when the ANC did not return
from their caucus. On the second occasion, they failed to pitch up
for the meeting. It was only at the third instance.
However, as a follow-up question: Hon Minister, it is now public
knowledge that, one month after the local government election and at
the third attempt, the Jozini Municipal Council has finally been
constituted. Are you aware that a company linked to the husband of
Nomusa Dube-Ncube, the very same hon MEC for KwaZulu-Natal that you
say has her feet on the ground, was the beneficiary of a R33 million
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 19 of 177
tender? [Interjections.] Deputy Chair, may I have some protection
here?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Order, hon
members! Order!
Mr M CHETTY: Thank you. If you are aware, what measures have you put
in place to ensure that practices of this nature do not occur? If
you were not aware, what measures will you put in place to ensure
that the MECs do not abuse their positions for financial benefit? In
addition, do you have the will to implement the DA‘s policy which
prevents public representatives from doing business with government?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chairperson, I am not sure if this is a linked question to
the main Question. However, it is very clear this question is not
linked. Without getting into the details of the submission, let me
reassure the hon member that, as government, we have put in place
various mechanisms and measures to combat fraud and corruption. This
is not something that should be looked at as a new revelation. It‘s
not something that should be looked at as something that is
happening because some people are perhaps leading in certain
municipalities. This is something that has been happening all along
and we will continue to adhere to those provisions. Thank you very
much.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 20 of 177
Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, Minister, let me start by saying
South Africa does not have to worry about those who have squandered
money illegally in Jozini because the new mayor and his executive
are already onto them. It does not need to be the Minister at
national level directing them on how to arrest people who are
stealing money. [Laughter.] They do have powers to do so themselves.
Hon Minister, my follow-up question to you is: This municipality has
to be operational for the next five years. How is your department
going to ensure that these walk-outs, if they continue to occur, do
not destabilise the functioning and operations of the municipality
and that people do get the benefit of the good service delivery that
the IFP has promised them, on the ground? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, as to how municipalities and municipal councils are
expected to function is prescribed in the Constitution. Hon members
will appreciate that municipal councils function independently from
other spheres of government. The only time a province comes into a
municipality is when the municipality fails in realising its
executive obligation as prescribed in the Constitution. That is why,
through the provision of section 139, we are able to determine that
incremental process. There is no Big Brother approach here. The
responsibility of making municipalities functional is the
responsibility of the municipal councils, as constituted. So, I
think that is where it starts.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 21 of 177
I would encourage all political parties ... because with the
experience that we have from the coalitions that were established as
an outcome of the 2011 administration, it is very clear that, if we
have these relationships that are not necessarily guided by clear
governance models, we will continue to intervene in those
municipalities, as guided by the Constitution. Let‘s get the basics
right. Of course, in terms of the national or provincial
intervention, it will definitely not be an issue that we should be
that concerned with. It all starts at municipal council level, as
provided for in the legislation. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, we want to congratulate
whoever won the election in Jozini. [Laughter.] We will still know
who won. In addition, we want to hear the Minister‘s comment in
relation to the structures that provide checks and balances on how
the municipality is run. So, whatever the fears raised here by
scaremongers that there would be walk-outs, the destabilising of
municipalities by whoever it may be – and people assume we do know –
we would like to hear his comment on that one. How intact are such
procedures, processes and structures that provide the checks and
balances and participation of people in the municipality?
In addition, for the record, we also congratulate the ANC leadership
in the province. On Friday, they went out in public and committed
the ANC to co-operate in making sure that people in Jozini would
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 22 of 177
receive their service delivery requirements. Therefore, we would
like to hear from the Minister on the importance of ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! On a point of order, hon
Nzimande: I thought that we had agreed, from the beginning, that
there wouldn‘t be any motions in the House. [Interjections.]
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Deputy Chair, on a point of order: A member is
allowed to make comments and ask questions. This is what I have
done. I have made comments and in those comments, there is no format
to congratulating. However, it is still within the question and
requires of the Minister to comment and say something in terms of
the party and their commitments and agreements to participate. So, I
think it is quite in order. I don‘t know who else is worried about
that, but on the party‘s commitment to structures that secure and
put checks and balances on the running of municipalities, can the
Minister comment?
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: Just as
the Chief Whip was doing, I think we need to protect the hon
Minister. This is the same question which I asked and which the
Minister has responded to. It is being asked for the second time.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is not ... there are some
other follow-up questions that had their own direction, in one way
or another. Hon Minister?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 23 of 177
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, yes, the mechanisms to ensure checks and balances are
in place. [Interjections.] Am I protected, Deputy Chair? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nzimande, can we protect the
Minister, please? [Interjections.] Hon Minister? Order! Order, hon
members!
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: In
our mechanisms, emphasis is placed at a provincial level where
provincial departments are encouraged to work closely with
municipalities. On our side, as Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, the relevant MECs report to us on the
performance of municipalities in their respective provinces, from
time to time. This is standardised on a monthly basis, but also
occurs during our Minmec meetings.
Over and above that, through our Back to Basics programme, we have
deployed what we term ―crack teams‖ to make sure that, at a
provincial level, the relevant provincial departments are duly
supported. In addition, municipalities that are having functionality
problems are duly supported.
I must also indicate to the House that, on top of that, during the
recently held, successful, local government elections, we
established a team at national level in the joint operations centre.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 24 of 177
Because of the outcome of the election results, we have decided not
to disband that team until we are sure that all municipalities are
properly constituted. This is also to complement – remember, before
the elections, we had what we termed the transitional committees?
These were committees working to ensure that ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members! Can you
listen to the response as provided by the Minister?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, these were committees that were established to ensure
that all municipalities that were newly established as a result of
the outcome of the Municipal Demarcation Board decision are
assisted. Those committees are still running. We are also supporting
those committees. So, hitherto, I think we have done our best to
make sure that mechanisms are in place to ensure that municipalities
are properly constituted.
Going forward, we will always be there to support municipalities, of
course, working through their provinces, where there are problems.
Thank you very much.
Building sustainable institution of traditional leadership
128. Mr J M Mthethwa (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
Whether
his
PAGE: 25 of 177
department
is
(a)
fulfilling
its
objective
of
building a sustainable institution of traditional leadership
and (b) resolving all outstanding disputes (details furnished);
if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO342E
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes,
indeed Deputy Chair, the Department of Traditional Affairs – of
course this one of the departments that falls under the Ministry of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA – is doing all
in its power to build an institution of traditional leadership that
is sustainable and will peacefully resolve all disputes.
The term of office of the commission on traditional leadership,
disputes and claims was extended to 30 December 2017. Meaning that as of today – there are 253 remaining cases in Limpopo. The
commission inherited 1244 disputes and claims from the previous
Nhlapo Commission, as well as any dispute and claims lodged before 1
August 2010.
To date, the commission has finalised 991 disputes and claims. This
commission is tasked with the responsibilities of resolving disputes
of traditional leaders.
Furthermore, the department continues to develop customary law of
succession and genealogies of all traditional leaders. In addition,
the department is in the process of creating a Chief Directorate
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 26 of 177
that will deal with disputes of traditional leaders after the
commission term has ended. The Chief Directorate will be assisted,
of course, by the National House of Traditional Leaders in resolving
disputes and claims.
With the current process, we‘re pleased that the commission will be
able to finalise all claims and disputes of traditional leadership
that are before it. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Mr J M MTHETHWA: Deputy Chair. Thank you very much Minister. The
institution of traditional leaders, Minister, differ from province
to province, any mechanism that will set up a uniformity of all
traditional leaders‘ institution throughout the country?
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes,
indeed, I fully agree with hon Mthethwa. This is one outcome of the
assessment that has been conducted. And, as a result of that, we‘re
at the situation whereby we‘re engaging extensively with the sector
to make sure that we address these disparities and we obviously
develop systems to standardise how the sector is being treated.
But, as you know, there‘s a lot of history behind these disparities
and we‘re trying our level best to entertain these. As a result of
our commitment to address these, I must indicate that on the 21st and
24th of November there will be a national dialogue of traditional
leaders, government and other stakeholders.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 27 of 177
And already, we have started build-up processes to make sure that,
amongst other things, we address these disparities and we harmonise
the sector; and of course, where possible, introduce some standards.
Definitely this is something that is enjoying our attention. Thank
you very much, Deputy Chair.
Mr M RAYI: I think the response is partly addressing the follow up
question that I‘m having, because last year during the Provincial
Week we visited one of the palaces of kings in the Eastern Cape.
There was a complaint that traditional leaders are not treated
equally with regard to the allocation of resources and budgets; but
also the state of the roads leading to these palaces is not good
especially with regard to the palace of Bumbane, Nqadu, Qawukeni and
Nyandeni. So, partly the Minister says they will be harmonising and
addressing some of the disparities. I don‘t know if he, perhaps, has
further comment on that matter?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: So,
it‘s not a follow up necessarily?
Mr M RAYI: It is [Inaudible.] if he can comment on that as well. If
he can comment whether this harmonisation will also talk to the
resources and the budgets.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Then
now it becomes a follow up question. Hon Minister!
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 28 of 177
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The
reality of the matter is that albeit the proclamation was done by
the President, as to how it‘s enforced at the provincial level – I
mean that‘s where we have major differences because provinces
approach this issue differently and they provide for the traditional
leadership differently; and as a result that‘s why we‘re arguing
that we have to find a mechanism to standardise these provisions
because they cause a lot of dissatisfaction among the sector itself.
And that‘s something we‘re working on.
Mr M KHAWULA: The hon Minister is affirming that the department is
fulfilling the objective of building a sustainable institution of
traditional leadership. My follow up is on that first part of the
response.
In 2009, hon Deputy Minister, the coalition of traditional leaders –
the hon Nkosi here is part of that because it was a coalition of all
kings irrespective of political ideology – approached government.
Government set up a committee under the leadership of the then
Deputy President, who is today the President of the country, all the
line functioning Ministries were part of that committee.
The coalition made presentations to the committee. The committee
together with the coalition agreed that there was a need for
sections of the Constitution, section 7 and section 17, to be
amended in order to allow for blockage of the obliteration of the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 29 of 177
powers and functions of traditional leaders in accordance with the
Structures Act.
Now, up to this day Minister, that has not happened but the Minister
is saying the department is fulfilling its objective. There‘s a
contradiction, hon Minister, can you explain this because kings have
made pleas to your department. Your department has not responded but
you are saying you are responding positively. It‘s a contradiction.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Indeed, the Department of Traditional Affairs is responding
accordingly to the provision of the Constitution which enjoins us to
support and be of assistance as we promote customary practices and
support the traditional leadership sector.
The process that the member is referring to is the same processes
that yielded the necessity to have some amendment introduced to what
was previously the Traditional Leadership Framework Act. Currently,
as we‘re speaking, because of the muted amendments we‘re looking
forward to the inclusion of the Koi San as part of the traditional
leadership sector, as one example. But beyond that there has been
some thorough assessment that has been done by the department to
determine functionality of various traditional councils. And of
course, we hope that as we move to the national dialogue of
traditional leaders we‘ll have a full report from that particular
assessment on the functionality of all traditional councils in the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 30 of 177
country. The record of the matter is that our commitment to support
traditional leaders is something that is definitely there and we
think that we still have a lot of work to do, working together with
the sector itself, that‘s exactly what we‘re doing now.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke lebogela tsibogo ya gago Tona le fa karaboya
potso ya ga motl Khawula e iketse kwa thoko o sa mo fa karabo ya
nnete eo a neng a go botsa yona. [Minister, thank you for your
response even though the answer that you provided to hon Khawula‘s
question was untrue and unrelated to the question.
My question, hon Minister, is with regard to the D Accounts. You
know in the North West province ...
... re na le merafe e e le gore e na le meepo ... [... we have
communities that owns the mines ...]
... where there were issues or queries regarding the beneficiations
of those mines to the communities. There was a D Account that was
opened by the department then and the Premier before Thandi Modise
and Thandi Modise herself. Up until now, Minister, those communities
are still awaiting for the response with regard to their monies from
the department and the legislature itself.
So, I would like to know – from your side – since you have been in
the office, how far are you on dealing with the issue of D Accounts
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 31 of 177
because they are the ones that are now at the key of protest in the
whole mining communities of North West?
Ms L L ZWANE: I think we need to refer to the Chairperson of this
Council as hon Thandi Modise not as ordinary Thandi Modise, as the
member has actually said.
Ms T J MOKWELE: You like to do that. I said Premier, Premier, it‘s a
position by itself, Premier.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
member, I allowed you to continue to conclude your question.
Ms T J MOKWELE: You‘re sustaining it?
Ke ne ke batla fela gore ke itse gore Tona, mo ntlheng eo ya di D
Accounts, re kopa o re thuse ka gonne merafe e tsogelane
kgatlhanong, ga re kgone go fitlhelela madi a rona. Ke a leboga.
(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Minister, I just wanted to know with regards to the D Accounts, we
need help because communities are at each other‘s throat, we cannot
access our monies. Thank you.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 32 of 177
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Minister, I would allow you to respond if you so wish to. But let me
allow you an opportunity then to [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, indeed the D Account matter was brought to our
attention and as we‘re speaking now the matter is being investigated
and I don‘t think I‘m privy to the details of that process. But it
goes beyond the D Account; it‘s all about how issues of economic
development in areas that are under the jurisdiction of traditional
leadership are being entertained. Because as you might be following,
there is a lot that is also happening in Limpopo, where the
communities in those traditional jurisdictions feel that they‘re
been taken for granted by mining houses, as an example.
Now, as part of the broader assessment that we‘re currently ceased
with, working together with the Department of Mineral Resources –
this is one area we‘re looking at, the social labour plans as well
as how our communities in those areas are properly empowered by some
of these operations; so it goes beyond the D Account issue and
indeed there is a problem in this area and going forward we really
need to do our best to resolve the situation for the sake of the
sustainability of those communities but also for the sake of proper
empowerment of our communities under the jurisdiction of traditional
leadership. Thank you.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 33 of 177
Promise on municipal demarcations
141. Ms
N
P
Koni
(Northern
Cape:
EFF)
asked
the
Minister
of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
Whether the law allows for municipal demarcations to be used
for political expediency (details furnished); if not, what is
the
position
in
this
regard;
if
so,
what
are
the
details?
relevant
CO362E
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, demarcation is the responsibility of the Municipal
Demarcation Board which we all know that it is an independent
authority responsible for determination of municipal boundaries and
in terms of section 155(3)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of
South Africa is empowered to do such. The board status as an
independent authority is also provided for in the Local Government
Municipal Demarcation Act 27 of 1998. Section 3 of this Act provides
that the board is a juristic person. It is independent and must be
impartial and must perform its function without fear, favour or
prejudice.
Furthermore, section 4 of the Municipal Demarcation Act provides
that the board must determine municipal boundaries in accordance
with this Act and other appropriate legislation enacted in terms of
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 34 of 177
Chapter 7 of the Constitution. Therefore, indeed, the board is an
independent structure. Thank you very much.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Deputy Chairperson, through you to the Minister,
the follow-up is that the people of Matatiele had been crying for
far too long demanding that they be incorporated to KwaZulu-Natal.
You refused to listen just as you refused to listen when you were a
mayor of Khutsong until people forced you, and just as you refused
to listen to people in Limpopo regarding the Vuwani matter. It is
not rank opportunist on your part to agree to the demands of the
people of Matatiele, just so you can get votes from the AIC to
continue governing in municipality that you have lost as the ANC.
Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Minister, before that, is that a point of order or is it a followup? You may proceed, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, maybe let me remind the member of the history of the
matter that he is referring to because I feel that at time he was
lost when he did the follow-up question. He is trying to mix these
things and these are the two things that cannot come together. I
hope a member is a member of the AIC because his reasoning is along
those lines. If we are all aware ... [Interjections.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 35 of 177
Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chair, why is the Minister saying that the
member is the member of the AIC? He can see that he is wearing the
red regalia. He cannot be a member of the AIC. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: May I
make a ruling on that question? The ruling is as follows, that even
the member in his follow-up question, he made reference to the AIC.
Can you continue, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, this party as you are all aware is at the forefront of
this Matatiele issue. The root for the matter is that this party was
established in December 2005, in Matatiele locality. At the centre
of its establishment was a protest against the inclusion of the area
in the Eastern Cape rather than KwaZulu-Natal. Matatiele was moved
from KwaZulu-Natal to the Eastern Cape in 2005, and I think without
necessarily getting into the details of that processes what is key
here or each member should try to refrain from is to assigning this
to an individual-led process. Remember that this was a decision of
this Parliament. This Parliament had to definitely re-enact the
provision of the 12 amendment which the Constitutional Court ruled
that had not been validly enacted.
This provision transferred the Matatiele Local Municipality from
Kwazulu-Natal province to the Eastern Cape Province. Therefore, it
is not a one-man show process. It involves some aspects of
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 36 of 177
participation. However, on top of that I must indicate that there is
a process that we have undertook that we will be entertaining beyond
this recent local government elections or visiting those areas where
there has been some reservation and to make sure that we engage
appropriately with our people in affected areas without necessarily
having to raise any unfounded expectations in that particular
consultative because we have received letters coming from those
areas. So, definitely as a responsible Ministry we are expected to
make follow up on those letters. That is exactly that we will be
doing. It is not only Matatiele, there are other areas that where we
have received some letters around issues of provincial boundaries. I
think it is important for the member to know that provincial
boundary is a process that is dealt with not even by the Demarcation
Board. It is something that is dealt with at this level because it
is a constitutional amendment aspect. Thank you very much.
Mr W F FABER: Deputy Chair, through you to the Minister, why does
demarcation in municipalities change almost during every election,
when there is almost no movement of voters entering or exiting in
areas? It is just in for the weekend and then out again after the
weekend. You should know Minister how that works. Then people go to
work again and they just bring money home so they are in for
weekends. This clearly shows that there is no question in the amount
of residents changing in this way, for example, like in Phokwane.
Can you please tell us, Minister, why almost every election there
are changes where there are not really people moving in these areas?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 37 of 177
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, Demarcation Act is very clear on what triggers
redetermination or determination and inter alia one of the things
that the Demarcation Board usually looks at as guided by the Act is
the increase in the number of voters in the given area, but also ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, can you allow the Minister to respond?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
This is one of the many reasons that the Demarcation Board usually
considers because at the centre of this exercise the Demarcation
Board must ensure that if a ward is constituted, that ward will be
viable, but also that ward will be in such a position that services
will be rendered efficiently and effectively for our constituency in
that ward. Now, the concern raised by the member is a very genuine
concern.
Just recently, before the local government elections, the
Demarcation Board working with ourselves and other institutions and
role-players including the academia gathered together in the indaba
that was convened by the Demarcation Board and this is one of the
things that was cited in that indaba. One of the findings that was
very stacking coming out of that engagement is the fact that since
this Act was brought to live, I think some years ago and it was in
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 38 of 177
1998, hitherto we have never looked at it and say can we review this
Act. Now, as a result of that engagement, the Act is going to be
reviewed.
There was a clear call from that indaba that there is a need for us
to review the Act. Of course, as we review the Act, we will also
have to address these issues of the frequency of the redetermination
and determination, among other things. Definitely, there will be a
process that we think is long overdue of looking at the efficacy of
the provision of this particular Act. Definitely, this is one of the
areas that has been raised as a concern. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, I think we just need to make the
comments that we all know about the politics behind the
demarcations. We all know about it. I do not think we can be fooled
in this House to say that it is the Demarcation Board‘s decisions
and there are more votes there and so forth. Minister, earlier in
Question 132 after the frivolous motion or nonmotion by the hon
Nzimande, you referred to special support the Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs will give to ... [Laughter.]
[Interjections.]
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Deputy Chair, I take offense to this low mentally
performing member. He cannot attack me on his motion when he answers
a question. It is out of order. I think it is demeanour to my
integrity and I would like you to rule on that.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 39 of 177
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I will
sustain that point of order and also request members to refrain from
referring to questions that have already been answered. However, let
us rather focus on the question that we are dealing with it right
now. Continue, hon member.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, I thought you would rule on something
that hon Nzimande also made a statement of ―mentally low‖. He
referred to me and I know that you heard it. You know these things
fall so soft only when it is opposition. They will never hear it ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can you
continue with your follow-up question?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: It
is fine; let me continue with my question. You referred earlier to
that, based on this question of the Demarcation Board, extra support
or special support that are given to struggling municipalities after
majors by the Demarcation Board. I just want to know what support
you are providing to these municipalities that are now struggling in
terms of service delivery protest and so forth and others that
cannot cope due to major and special arrangements that must be made.
If you can start with an example at home, Minister, you were in my
home, Rand West, if you can start with that example. Thank you.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 40 of 177
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, as earlier indicated that the National Treasury went
to an extent of publishing financial resources for these newly
merged municipalities. I think it is just too early for us to say
that these municipalities are not functional because we have not
even concluded the first month of the existence. We are busy now
with inducting and training councillors in those municipalities.
Therefore, I am not sure what the member is referring to, what is
the basis of that because the root of the matter is that we have not
picked up any major challenges in the cited municipality, the Rand
West Municipality that he is referring to.
We think that all transitional arrangements and transitional
provisions were definitely adhered to before even the elections.
Therefore, I think it is just too early for a member to pick up on
the ... I know it is quite comfortable and soothe to cite your
constituency at this platform because it shows that you are really
doing something for your constituency. But, truly speaking let us
not mislead the public and say that these newly established
municipalities are not functional or are having problems. We have
not recorded any. As I have said, we are monitoring performance of
those municipalities and where necessary we intervene. We will not
hesitate to intervene and to assist these municipalities. Thank you
very much.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 41 of 177
Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, in the Minister‘s response to the
first follow-up, the hon Minister took a short cut. I just want to
take the long walk for clarity purposes. A decision to put Matatiele
under the Eastern Cape was taken after a referendum was held in
Matatiele by the legislature and parliament of KwaZulu-Natal. In
that referendum, the overwhelming majority of the people of
Matatiele, more than 80% voted in favour of KwaZulu-Natal. The
matter went to the legislature in KwaZulu-Natal. The ANC in the
legislature used its majority to vote against the wishes of the
people of Matatiele. They voted against the results of the
referendum.
Now, I am glad that the Minister is saying that the demarcation is
the responsibility of the Demarcation Board. Now, what I want know,
hon Minister is, if any political parties just use Matatiele as a
butter system and they promise each other using Matatiele; would you
say then that is null and void because it is the Demarcation Board
that must take a decision. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, the determination of provincial boundaries should not
be confused with the redetermination or determination of ward
boundaries. These are two different processes. If you temper with
provincial boundaries, you will have to follow due constitutional
process. That constitutional process obviously will lead to that
particular decision being enacted through a process of Parliament.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 42 of 177
That was exactly what I was trying to explain. I have never said
that there was no referendum that was held in Matatiele or about
Matatiele situation. I have never said that. But, the root of the
matter is that as I have correctly concluded, we have received
correspondences from the constituency of Matatiele and other
constituencies who are affected by provincial boundaries.
My predecessor duly so, responded and indicated that after the local
government elections – the recently held local government elections
– we will be entertaining whatever that is raised in those
correspondences. Therefore, definitely there is no duck and diving
here; we will have to provide solutions to some of these challenges
facing our people. Thank you very much.
Functioning of municipalities
112. Mr
W
F
Faber
(Northern
Cape:
DA)
asked
the
Minister
of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
(1)
What measures are in place to ensure the effective and
efficient functioning of municipalities that are currently
bankrupt;
(2)
whether members of the Executive Councils in the provinces
report
on
the
stagnant
financial
status
of
the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 43 of 177
municipalities;
if
not,
why
not;
if
so,
how
is
his
into
the
department addressing this issue;
(3)
what
were
the
outcomes
of
an
investigation
inappropriate use of funds by departments in Limpopo?
CO322E
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chair, various methods are used to determine the financial
health to determine the financial health of municipalities. These
include, amongst others, year-on-year growth in debtors and
creditors as a percentage of cash and investment, reliance on
national and provincial government transfers, persistence on
negative cash balance, as well as debtors as a percentage of owned
revenue.
I must indicate that there are municipalities that do not have
sufficient cash to pay their creditors, such as Eskom, water boards
and others, in line with the requirements of the Municipal Finance
Management Act. In addition, some municipalities are still
struggling to collect outstanding debt on municipal services. When
municipalities are struggling to pay their creditors due to
persistence in negative cash balances, they are classified as in
financial distress or technically bankrupt.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 44 of 177
Support initiatives are undertaken by various stakeholders,
including national and provincial Departments of Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogtas, and Treasuries. They
develop measures to address the financial sustainability of these
municipalities. I must indicate that as Cogta and National Treasury,
we have embarked on simplified revenue plans replicable model
project in which we are currently targeting 30 municipalities.
This project will contribute to the reduction of consumer death and
enhancement of municipalities‘ revenue collection. An
intergovernmental task team composed of Department of International
Relations and Cooperation, Dirco, Department of Public Enterprises,
Eskom, South African Local Government Association, Salga, National
Treasury and their provincial counterparts was formed to conduct an
in-depth analysis into the status of municipalities that cannot
afford to pay Eskom as the biggest creditor. This is something that
I have referred to earlier.
Affordability analysis studies were undertaken and repayment plans
agreeable to both Eskom and the municipalities were approved.
Treasuries were are also assisting the municipalities to develop and
implement financial recovery plans which look at setting specific
strategies for addressing the financial problems faced by some
municipalities. These include the reduction of unnecessary
expenditure and increasing the collection of own revenue.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 45 of 177
On the second part of the question, I must indicate that the answer
there is a yes, because the MECs report to the Cogta Ministers and
Members of Executive Councils Meeting, Cogta Minmec, on
implementation of and progress on the Back to Basics programme which
among others covers the financial status of municipalities as one of
the five pillars of this important programme.
Various support packages for each of the identified municipalities
are undertaken, which include the monthly and quarterly debt review
forums, assisting municipalities‘ development of revenue enhancement
strategies and the review of municipal credit control and debt
collection policies.
I must also indicate that the department does not have a mandate to
oversee investigations regarding inappropriate use of funds by
provincial departments. According to section 106 of the Local
Government Municipal Systems Act 32 of 2000, our department oversees
investigations into inappropriate use of funds by municipalities.
Thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Chair, as you know, the CFOs and municipal managers
have to take responsibility. Usually, they then also get suspended
and dismissed. But, do they actually account after the actions of
the investigations – for instance, like in Lebekwane Municipality?
If they then take accountability, why do they get redeployed to
other municipalities at the taxpayer‘s cost?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 46 of 177
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: This
has been a problem in the past, but I can assure the member that we
have provided for a database where such people are blacklisted to
exactly avoid your concern which has also been a national concern.
This matter is being addressed. Definitely, if you want statistical
information: There already are those who have been blacklisted; and
information has been shared accordingly within the sector. Thank you
very much.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon chair, I greet everybody with As Salam Maleikum.
The issue here is that in a lot of municipalities that have become
bankrupt in the years gone by, this bankruptcy has resulted largely
from the inefficiencies or the corruptions of not only officials but
also of politicians.
The question then that we are asking is: What has the Minister‘s
department done to investigate these municipalities to exactly
determine the reasons for the bankruptcy setting in; and what is the
hon Minister‘s department going to do to ensure that the relevant
people are brought to book?
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
There is a lot of work that has been done by the Ministry to refer
because - remember that - the Ministry does not have the capacity to
investigate some of these serious allegations. So, matters have been
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 47 of 177
referred to other law enforcement agencies. Here I can cite the
Special Investigation Unit and the Assessment Forfeiture Unit.
The statistical information is present. It was presented in our last
report and it can be provided to members on request. However, there
is work that is being done to deal with some of these cases. We
refer them to appropriate establishment to deal with. Some are
serious and very unfortunate cases. Thank you.
Mr M CHETTY: Hon Minister, your predecessor, the hon Minister Pravin
Gordhan, last year said that one in three municipalities were
dysfunctional and therefore introduced the Back to Basics programme.
He cited political instability, poor service delivery and
institutional mismanagement as factors that led to councils being
dysfunctional.
Can you inform this House, with regards to the numerous service
strikes and protest actions that we have experienced this year: Has
the Back to Basics programme been successful or not; and what is the
progress or decline to date? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Indeed, there are a lot of good stories that are coming out of this
newly-introduced approach of Back to Basics. Just this morning, I
was hosting a delegation of business people, of course led by a
minister from Switzerland. As you know, Nestlé is a Swiss company.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 48 of 177
So, they appreciated some of the interventions that we had to make
through Back to Basics in the operations that are of course led by
Nestlé.
So, this clearly shows that among other things, there is progress
that we are making in some of the areas. However, the root of the
matter is that the first year assessment of Back to Basics clearly
shows that the performance of municipalities is uneven. That
suggests that we can‘t employ a blanket approach on matters. If one
municipality is doing well, we can‘t say all municipalities are
doing well. Equally so, if one municipality is not doing well, we
can‘t say they all are not doing well.
Also, their problems vary from one municipality to the other. So, as
we intervene, we will have to be very realistic and develop tailormade interventions for specific municipalities. Indeed, we can also
provide evidence to show some of the difference that we have made in
other municipalities.
Of course, there are municipalities where there are persistent
problems, where we are still striving together, working with
provinces and other role players because Back to Basics is a
collaborative effort to address the problems encountered by some of
these municipalities. Our work continues in those municipalities.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 49 of 177
Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, referring to the blacklisting of officials, I
would like to know: How will this blacklist work? Will it be
published in the Government Gazette? How will it be utilised? It is
not really a blacklist if it is in the Minister‘s drawer somewhere.
I would also like to know: How far or what processes will be
involved? I believe that there maybe some, even members here, that
should be on that list. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: You
seem to have some information. Perhaps you should furnish us with
the details of those members that you think were not properly
blacklisted. The fact of the matter is that this is a new initiative
and, among other things, we are looking at the enforceability of it
because it is very important that if we blacklist, that should be
binding. We don‘t have people blacklisted and they continue to gain
the benefits of the public sector. So, this is something that will
definitely strengthen as we move forward. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it a point of order?
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, with your permission, may I rise on a
point of privilege, please?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes!
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 50 of 177
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chairperson, at many occasions, the speaker who
has spoken just now on behalf of the DA on a follow-up question: Has
made reference to me as skelem; made reference to me as a criminal
that is wanted; and just today he makes reference to some of the
people who are in the House who are supposed to be blacklisted.
I want to place it on record at this Council that hon Hattingh is
grossly misinformed. I am not the George Mthimunye who he has made
reference to, who was once a municipal manager in Klerksdorp.
[Laughter.] I am a different George Mthimunye! [Laughter.]
[Interjections.] He must get his facts correct and stop misleading
the public! Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: That is
a very interesting one, precisely because of what has been said
previously – I don‘t have the benefit of that – regarding the
criminals or whatsoever. If it is a statement that was made in the
Council and it is on record of the Council: Will I therefore be
allowed an opportunity to familiarise myself with what was said in
the Council and make a proper ruling on that matter?
I don‘t know if these are silent statements that are being echoed
there, far from me, and if I am able to really make a ruling on
them. Hon Nzimande, is that point of order?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 51 of 177
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chair, I rise on the Rule on relevance. I am
noticing that we have participated in this question, asking followup questions that are not core to the main question. The main
question is talking about the current bankrupt municipalities, and
the follow-up questions are all over – from disciplining of members,
transferring, deploying and all sorts of things. They are not
talking about the current bankrupt municipalities.
So, according to me, from the presiding point of view – the
presidium – it is important that we are relevant to the cause;
otherwise some of us find it out of order. Also, there is by law no
municipality declared bankrupt. That is the point of irrelevance.
There might be nonviable municipalities versus viable
municipalities. However, in the country, as far as I know, it is a
misleading question - it is irrelevant. Therefore, the follow-up
questions and clarities to it are also irrelevant.
I would like the presidium to go and look at it so that what comes
to the Council is proper and relevant. Otherwise, we are running the
risk of misleading the public and engage on matters that we are not
supposed to engage on legally. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can I
respond to that? [Interjections.] Hon Faber, can I respond to that?
It is relevant because the Rules that govern questions session point
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 52 of 177
us to a fact that: Any follow-up question that is made must be
relevant to the principal question. I made that ruling, but because
you are politicians, you have one way or other of bringing other
things up.
In protecting the Minister, I would obviously make reference or
maybe check with him if he is willing to respond to a political
statement or question that is being put. Yes, it is true; other
follow-up questions are political statement more than really
speaking to the principal question that has been put to the Council
or the Minister. So, it is an appeal once more: Let us go back and
be relevant to the principal question as put by a member. Hon Faber!
Mr W F FABER: Deputy Chairperson, I hear what you say but to be
quite honest, you are the Chairperson of the Council; not the member
that was standing up giving us a whole story about how it works. So,
that is my first comment. And then, the issue is: If we ask relevant
questions; we want relevant answers. We are not getting the answers!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Faber, I thought I was even protecting you in my earlier ruling,
saying that let us be focused. We would be tempted, like I said,
because we are politicians. This is a gathering of politicians, so
there will be that temptation to make a political swiping statement
here and there.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 53 of 177
I cannot also be found to be so rigid as not to allow members to
make such statements but the appeal is that let us be relevant to
the principal question. Hon Vawda, are you okay now? Alright that
then concludes Question 112.
Duties & functions of PRs & ward councillors
134. Mr
L
B
Gaehler
(Eastern
Cape:
UDM)
asked
the
Minister
of
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
Whether his department has specific duties and functions for
(a) ward councillors and (b) party representatives; if not, why
not; if so, what are the relevant details in each case?
CO354E
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
Deputy Chairperson, the specific duties and functions of both ward
and proportional representation councillors are provided for,
amongst others, in the following pieces of legislation: the
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, the Local Government
Municipal Structures Act and the Local Government Municipal Systems
Act. There are also many other guidelines and policies that
councillors must adhere to, in order to implement as part of their
daily responsibilities of being a public representative.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 54 of 177
As you are all aware, their responsibilities include, inter alia,
helping communities in explaining what their needs are; developing
and supporting community structures; facilitating public
participation in government development projects; identifying
service blockages in the community and finding solutions to
identified needs and blockages by meeting with national, provincial
and local government structures.
That is adequately provided for in our Back to Basics approach. So,
it is a collaborative approach.
I must indicate that, as we speak, the department, in collaboration
with South African Local Government Association, Salga, National
Treasury, Local government Sector Education and Training Authority,
LGSeta, and the Department of Public Service and Administration, is
presently rolling out an induction programme for all newly elected
councillors. The programme is mainly intended to assist councillors
to understand their roles and responsibilities as members of
municipal councils. I thank you.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Chair, in fact, these questions got mixed up
by the Questions Office. This one was supposed to be a Question for
Written Reply. But I have spoken to the Chief Whip about it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I couldn‘t follow the last part
of ...
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 55 of 177
Mr L B GAEHLER: I said the questions were mixed by the Questions
Office. This one was for Written Reply. The other one which is for
Oral Reply is not in.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Minister I am not happy ... [Laughter.] ... with
your answer. I want a specific answer. What are the duties? The
question is very clear: What are the duties? The reasons I ask this
question is that where the governing party is in control or is in
charge of the council, the duties of proportional representation,
PR, councillors are not given to them. Their functions are not
given. We know about your workshops, etc, but your leadership in the
councils where you are in charge do not want the PR councillors to
do their duties and therefore, the taxpayers‘ money paid to them
make them to become what we call ATM councillors who are not doing
their duties because of your management in councils. So, I want a
specific answer from you as a Minister. What are the duties of the
PR councillors? This is a simple question. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon
member, just take it easy. The reality of the matter here is that PR
councillors, like any public representatives elected to serve in a
municipal council, are equally entitled to serve in various
committees of a municipal council. That is what is happening.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 56 of 177
Now, I am not sure what the member is referring to when he
emphasised this thing of ... I mean 15 years in our democratic local
government system ... referring to the duties of a PR council.
The fact of the matter is that PR councillors also participate in
various committees of a municipal council. But, those PR councillors
can also serve as mayors or speakers. It all depends on how the
outcome of the constitution of a given municipal council is
determined.
So, truly speaking, I don‘t get the question. I really don‘t get the
question. Maybe the member wants to get to certain specifics and I
will appreciate if the member can ... even ... I think he was right
by saying the question should have been referred to a written
response. I think he can still do a follow-up for a written response
so that we can give him more explanation on the functions of PR
councillors. If he does mind, I think one is ready to take him for
tea so that we can explain some of these things quite succinctly
because I do not understand exactly what his problem is. Thank you
very much.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Ikhona ingxaki ekhoyo. [There is a problem.]
Chairperson, the Minister is here to answer questions.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 57 of 177
Akawuphenduli lo mbuzo ndiwubuzayo. Umsebenzi kaCeba oHlonyelweyo
(PR Councillor) yintoni na? [He has not answered the question I have
asked. What are the duties of a PR Councillor?]
Are they allowed to satisfy things and so forth?
Kutheni ungangeni apha enyanisweni? Phendula umbuzo lo wokuba benza
ntoni na aba ceba bahlonyelweyo? (PR Councillor). Uyeke ukube
utshona ngapha nangapha. [Kwahlekwa.] (Translation of isiXhosa
paragraph follows.)
[Why do you skirt around the truth? Just answer the question
regarding what PR Councillors do. And stop ducking and diving.
[Laughter.]]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can I take the
opportunity to protect the Minister because the follow-up question
was made. There is even a suggestion that says the question can
still be responded to in writing and further engagement, but to
allow a member to ask two follow-up questions is against the Rules.
Mr C HATTINGH: I would like to hear the Minister‘s approach and the
department‘s situation on ... let‘s call it deployment of municipal
councillors by mayors, by speakers and even by the so-called single
whips to specific wards and then also, to do oversight at, for
instance, schools which is not a local government competency. What
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 58 of 177
is going on there? Where do they get the right to do so and even to
threaten councillors if they do not oblige. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon
Hattingh, a municipal councillor is what one could term the first
line of defence of a government. Our people do not know that
technical difference you are referring to. When they look at a
councillor either — a PR or a ward councillor — they see the
government. That is why we are insisting that even public
representative should participate in community-based structures like
the Community Policing Forums, CPFs, school governing bodies and
many others because those are the structures that assist in that
given area — the municipal council or the ward committee to do its
work of taking the needs of a given community to the relevant sector
department in the spirit of intergovernmental relations.
We do not expect that to be abused, no. It is not like when you are
there as a councillor, all of a sudden you must employ the so-called
the big brother approach. No. You are there as a leader to guide,
but also to listen and assist those community-based structures as
they strive to improve the lives of our people in that given ward or
in that given constituency. That is what is encouraged.
I do not think we should entertain the negative side of it. Our
focus should be on how to utilise public representatives to enhance
aspects of public participation and the efficiency and effectiveness
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 59 of 177
of community-based structures. We should not discourage councillors
from participating in such structures. I think that is very
important because those structures are sources of information. But,
these are the very same structures that we expect to participate in
ward committees as sectors and in our development agenda as driven
by the Integrated Development Plans, IDPs, of given municipalities.
So, it is very important for councillors to lead and participate in
some of those structures. Thank you.
Mr M CHETTY: Hon Minister, let me first say that our councillors are
not the first line of defence. They are the first line of
accountability. But, I am sure of the fact that the way you have
been attacking your former predecessor as well, you are in the
military veteran tone.
So, hon Minister, you earlier answered a question on traditional
leadership. Currently, roles of traditional leaders in councils are
still not clearly defined. In some areas, ward ... [Interjections.]
...
Can I get protection, Deputy Chair? [Interjections.] ...
[Inaudible.] ... Only certain people get protection. I am from
KwaZulu-Natal as is the hon Nzimande. I would like some protection.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are
protected.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 60 of 177
Mr M CHETTY: Thank you. Let me start again.
Hon Minister you earlier answered a question on traditional
leadership. Currently, roles of traditional leaders in councils are
still not clearly defined. In some areas, ward councillors and
traditional leaders who are from different political allegiances are
in conflict and do not complement each other. Issues around who is
responsible for that particular ward are of concern. Is it the
democratically elected ward councillor or the traditional leader of
the area? Does your department have specific duties and functions
for the traditional leaders in councils? What are the relevant
details? If not, when will the department have these implemented?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:
[Inaudible.] ... a core question, but I think it is very relevant in
the sense that it deals with the relationship between councillors
and one of the key role-players — traditional leaders — in a given
municipality. The root of the matter is that it is true, but still
let us not employ a blanket approach because it is not in all
municipalities where this thing is not working. It is working very
well in some municipalities and we are learning from those
municipalities to take the best practices to municipalities that are
having problems.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 61 of 177
For the first time in the history of the councillor induction
programme, we have included a chapter on how traditional leaders
should work with municipal councillors. But, I must tell you that it
is not a straightforward process and the engagements are continuing.
We think, working together with the relevant affected traditional
leaders and with the National House of Traditional Leaders and other
role-players, this is an area that we should address. It is also
cited as an agenda item for our upcoming dialogue with traditional
leaders.
It is a fact, there are relationship problems in some
municipalities, but there are best practices that are coming out in
other municipalities on how traditional leaders relate to municipal
councils. This is something that we will continue to enjoy our focus
going forward. Thank you very much.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, what we have noticed recently is that,
after the governing party had lost some of the larger metropoles, we
hear sentiments coming out of Luthuli House that the present
proportional representation system is not working for democracy at
local government level. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that a point of order?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 62 of 177
Mr M T MHLANGA: Deputy Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. To
the hon member, there is nothing legislated in that regard.
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat, hon Vawda. Let
me just take ... [Interjections.] Hon member, can I listen to the
point of order.
Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, our country‘s Constitution is clear on the
terms of the proportional representation system. There is no
regulation that says we must amend the proportional representative
method. There is nothing like that in the legislation. So, in that
order, Chair
... [Interjections.]
No, we don‘t bring Luthuli House here! We are dealing with
legislative matters here matters here. [Inaudible.] Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can I just rule on
the point as raised. Firstly, we dealt with the issues of relevance
earlier on. I find the question not to be relevant to the principal
question. [Interjections.]
Can I just respond to ... [Interjections.] ... yes I will recognise
you; there is no problem.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 63 of 177
I am appealing to hon Vawda ... [Interjections.] ... hon members ...
I am appealing to you, hon Vawda, to focus your follow up question
on the principal question.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, kgangkgolo ke gore motl Vawda ga a
fetsa go botsa potso. [Chairperson, the issue is that hon Vawda did
not finish his question.]
So, you can‘t rule on the unfinished sentence. You don‘t know what
his statement to the question will be. So, allow the member to voice
his statement and thereafter ask a question, it is then that you can
make a ruling. You don‘t know his statement when mentioning Luthuli
House, of which is the truth that you want to amend the section in
the Municipal Structures Act Structure‘s Act or Municipal Electoral
Act Electoral‘s Act. Allow him to speak and then you make a ruling.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Fine. Unfortunately, I will just
live up to my responsibilities which are to decide on matters that I
have to decide on. I have protected hon Vawda and I am requesting
him to continue with his follow up question but being relevant to
the principle question. Can you proceed with your question hon
member?
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Deputy Chair, thank you very much indeed for your
protection as well. The question to the hon Minister will be very
simple that, does the hon Minister agree with the present
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 64 of 177
proportional representation system, PR, at a local government level?
If he does not agree, then he should explain to us what alternatives
he has in mind? And if he does agree that the system is still
relevant, then has he reprimanded the relevant people who are
indicating otherwise from Luthuli House? Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You would realise hon Vawda that
you are now asking a totally new question. Now you seek an opinion
of the Minister whereas the Minister is supposed to respond to the
roles of PR councillors, as posed by the hon Gaehler which is the
principle question. However, hon Minister, if you want to engage
with that sweeping political statement, this is the House to do so.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The
member‘s poacher is a reflection of preoccupation about Luthuli
House. If I remember his association with Luthuli House is so
common. Maybe I should facilitate the process of reintroducing you
to Luthuli House once more. However, let us not forget our
responsibilities as public representatives ... [Interjections.]
Ms T MOKWELE: Inaudible.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, you are out of
order my dear, please don‘t do that. Continue hon Minister.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 65 of 177
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: ...
albeit the question is not direct to the core question. However, let
me clarify to the member that if there is any mooted legislative
change let‘s remember that that is your responsibility as Members of
Parliament. So if you want to effect or pose some changes, here is a
battle field. Don‘t throw it to me.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP! Take your seat hon Minister.
Take your seat hon Mokwele. I think it is a given that our primary
constitutional responsibility as Members of Parliament is to pass
legislation. In any way, if there is an amendment to any piece of
legislation, it‘s going to be debated in this House.
We will debate
it, we will agree or disagree with the amendment and all that, but
to shout at the Minister would not help the process because our
opportunity will come if there is such an amendment being proposed
in any case. I am just appealing to hon Mokwele, stop interjecting
directly with the Minister and shouting the Minister down. Please
don‘t do that.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chair, it is a fact that the ANC has made a
point in terms of amending the legislation. It‘s a fact. So we can‘t
be sitting here and ignoring facts that the ANC publicly did mention
through the Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly and on national
media that they want to amend the legislation. The Minister cannot
come here and tell us that if we want to do one, two, three – it‘s a
fact that you have seen that this thing of PR system is no longer
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 66 of 177
working for the ANC so you need to review it. It‘s a fact, it will
come to us and we will discuss it. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, can you take your
seat please? Hon Minister, may I direct you not to respond to any
political statement that was made anywhere. Don‘t respond to that.
Rather respond to issues that are directly to your portfolio. Can
you please do that?
What is your point of order hon Julius?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, remember that if you make a ruling it
has bearing on the rules like the Chief Whip earlier said. In other
words, no Minister will be allowed to respond on a political
statement whether it is from the ANC or any other party. Do you
agree with that?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, I had said before
that this is a political platform for us to debate political
matters. The Minister is required to respond to a statement that was
made by Luthuli House and the Minister responds to questions
directed to his department that have been put to him by this House.
Can we just protect the Minister to focus on what we have requested
him to do which is to respond to a question that says, “What is it
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 67 of 177
that his department is doing in defining and assisting PR
councillors‖?
Hon members, may I not allow any other further engagement on this
matter and not to put the Minister to a point where he must now
respond to things he had not said. At least, if he had made the
statement out there and then comes to the House, that question would
have been relevant. To say, but you said it. It would have been
relevant. However, if something has been said by some else there,
you can‘t. Can I recognise hon Labuschagne?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order. I just
want to refer to a few rules here. A few rulings have been made
today in this Council and in every sitting we are going along this
line.
Rule 30 says, there is freedom of speech in this House. Another rule
says that, ―The Cabinet and the executive committee is accountable
to this House‖. So when members do ask questions and the Minister
says that councillors have oversight on schools – that is not the
mandate of the council. After that, the Minister makes a political
statement and say that he is allowing the councillors to take
responsibility for something that is not their responsibility except
the accounts on a municipal level. So when we then raise questions
on the political statements that the Minister make then we cannot
raise these questions. How fair is that?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 68 of 177
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, I was even going to
appreciate the fact that you brought us back into what we are
supposed to be doing, that freedom of speech relevant to the
department and relevant to the work and the principle question that
has been put. That is exactly what I am cautioning members against,
to say, can we allow the Minister to respond to matters that have
been put to him. I am not saying the Minister should not respond to
questions that have been put to him, that are relevant to his
department. Hon Mokwele, can you please proceed?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ok, thank you very much Deputy Chair. The issue of
political statement comes from the hon Minister there. Because in
his response he said to hon Vawda that he is going to introduce him
to Luthuli House and that on its own is a political statement. So
when we engage him on what he said, don‘t protect him, allow us to
speak to him and he must respond to whatever question that we are
posing to him.
It‘s a fact that the National Assembly‘s Deputy Speaker announced
publicly about the matter on the table. The Deputy Speaker of the
National Assembly and the Minister are accountable to the National
Assembly and they are also members of a political party. So the
decision was taken by the political party. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I allow the Minister to
respond to the question as put to him and the follow up question as
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 69 of 177
read by ... [Interjections.] ... what is the point of privilege, hon
Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: There is a question before the House.
Can the House limit itself to the question at hand? What is being
said here may be relevant in some other debates, but let‘s focus on
the question at hand. Thank you Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Let me
allow the Deputy Minister to respond to the follow up questions as
put to him. On what point are you rising hon Gaehler?
Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order. I ask you
to be fair. When the Minister replied to me on a political
statement, he said he wants to take me out for tea. Why did he want
to take me out for tea? Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ok, I think that is a matter
that can be sorted out somewhere else.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: ...
the last time I worked with the hon member in the finance committee
I used to take him to tea as an elderly. So I am not sure why it is
a problem to continue to engage with an elderly over tea on some of
these matters.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 70 of 177
Deputy Chairperson, I think I have responded to all the questions
posed to me. I just wanted to clarify on the mooted changes on
legislation irrespective of their origin and I was given advice that
it is a process that should be championed here. That was my advice.
So members should not refer it to the Ministry, as if it is the
Ministry‗s responsibility to effect the legislative changes. It is a
parliamentary process and I think they should entertain it at that
level.
The issue of participation into school governing bodies, crime
prevention forums, cpfs, – I have said it clearly that we are not
necessarily saying councillors must [Inaudible.] sectors, but they
must co-operate in the spirit of intergovernmental relationship.
They must co-operate and support those structures because those
structures are very important for the stabilisation of their local
constituencies, so it is important that they must be collaboration
between public representatives and community based structures. That
one is very critical. I am not saying public representatives should
take over all of a sudden the legislative responsibilities of other
sectors no, it must be done within the spirit of intergovernmental
relationship. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much hon
Minister. Hon Mokwele, we still have an outstanding issue ...
[Interjections.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 71 of 177
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes, I know. However Deputy Chair with due respect,
I am requesting you not to always call me by name, citing as if I am
the only person who is causing disruption in this House ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... oh, you are aware?
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... you must also call hon George and hon Nthebe
with their names, please ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... so you are aware that you
are causing disruption?
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... they are making noise and you are saying hon
members, but if it was me you would say hon Mokwele you are making
noise, please.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... hon member, I am sure the
reason why I keep on referring to you by your name is because of
that outstanding matter that is on record in this House. It was
raised by hon Khawula. I can still remember and there was a
unanimous agreement in this House. Hon members that concludes
questions to hon Minister van Rooyen. I will then proceed to the
Minister of Public and Administration.
Personal development programmes
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 72 of 177
140. Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Public
Service and Administration:
(1)
Whether there are any personal development programmes that
are aimed at (a) re-skilling and/or (b) upgrading employees
on
the
job
in
line
with
strategic
outcome
2
of
his
department; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details;
(2)
whether these programmes cut across all (a) departments,
(b) fields and (c) careers in the (i) service and (ii)
government-funded employments; if not, what is the position
in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO361E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chair, in
consultation with respective supervisors, all employees must submit
a Personal Development Plan, PDP, with their respective performance
agreements - that‘s the first answer. The PDP is aimed at addressing
the identified development gaps through reskilling or capacity
development programmes. The upgrading of employees skills and
competencies through training programmes, on-the-job mentoring and
peer support is an ongoing exercise.
Second part of the section - yes, these interventions cut across all
departments within the Public Service. They are implemented in terms
of Public Service Regulations and other prescripts issued by my
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 73 of 177
department. For example, I have released a directive to ensure that
senior managers attend compulsory capacity development programmes
over a mandatory period of 18 days in a three year cycle. Please
note that the training interventions identified in the PDP and
compulsory training programmes for senior managers are funded
through departmental budgets. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Mr M KHAWULA: The concern here, hon Minister, is the laws to
government, that government is losing a lot of skills and personnel,
especially to the private sector because of maybe lack of proper
retention skills in government. For example, in the private sector,
especially for a number of professions, when an employee enrols onthe-job, the programme is funded by the employer whereas in
government for most professions, for example, in teaching, when I am
a teacher, I get a bursary when I am still studying towards
teaching, but on-the-job, when I want to upskill myself, there are
no incentives in government that are funded by a government to can
be able to help those who want to go on with their studies. That was
the gist of the question because it is intended in private sector as
a retention strategy. Why is the same not happening in government so
that we can be able to retain the much required skills? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, I take that
to be a suggestion. It‘s not a question. Basically, the hon member
is suggesting that we need to develop incentives to retain people
within the Public Service. Of course, we do have some incentives for
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 74 of 177
people to stay in the Public Service, but not the same instrument
that he is suggesting. Public Service pays fairly well and the bulk
of our budget - 10% of it goes to payments of public servants.
We are introducing the housing scheme, like the new one that we have
to incentivise public servants. We are doing that in collaboration
with the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, and also with the
banking system so that we can make sure that those who do not
qualify, for instance, for RDP houses, are able to access
accommodation. It‘s just one example of the things we do. So, I
think the member is suggesting that we need to give further
scholarships. But if you apply to the Construction Education and
Training Authorities, Cetas, you will get some scholarships if you
qualify. So, basically it‘s a suggestion and we will have a look at
it. Thank you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I would like to know ... There is
something that we come across over a wide spectrum. What is the
Minister‘s view, the department‘s view on the deployment? Let‘s call
it deployment - the Minister will understand, of unqualified or
underqualified officials into managerial positions. Then, what
corrective measures or disciplinary actions are taken in cases such
as these? Thank you.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 75 of 177
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Okay, there are
performance agreements that are signed between the executive
authorities and heads of departments.
Mr C HATTINGH: Do not converse loudly while another member is
speaking, the member behind me, please!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr J R Tau): Yes, she agrees.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: So, if a
particular employee does not live up to the performance agreements,
corrective measures are taken. It‘s either we train the particular
employee using the National School of Governance and its associate
institutions like other academic institutions to try to upgrade the
skills. If the person is not trainable, obviously at some point, we
are going to have to get rid of that person because they can‘t
deliver the necessary service.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr J R Tau): Is there any other
follow up question? Hon Rayi, sorry!
Mr M RAYI: Yes, you had noted me earlier. Hon Deputy Chair, my
question is similar to hon Khawula‘s one, but mine is slightly
different in that I know of the fact that departments are also
paying for the upskilling of employees. So, therefore, my question
is linked to the skills development of employees as to whether a
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 76 of 177
retention strategy is in place to guard against what he was saying
that employees who are trained get posts by the private sector in
particular. Thanks you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: The only way you
can guarantee retention is when you provide and you give better
working conditions. Again, I have mentioned that the salaries that
we give to civil servants are fairly competitive. So, I do not see
how we would then retain people because you have to have a career
plan for a particular employee. So, as they reach a certain level of
development they can be promoted as and when the posts are
available. So, three elements basically, good salary, good working
conditions and of course career path. That‘s the plan.
Single public service
123. Mr J M Mthethwa (KwaZulu-Natal: ANC) asked the Minister of
Public Service and Administration:
Whether any measures are in place to establish a single public
service; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO337E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy
Chairperson, the conceptual debate on the Single Public service has
culminated with the signing into law of the Public Administration
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 77 of 177
Management Act 11 of 2014; here after referred to as the Pam act.
The Public Administration Management Act establishes a uniform
system of public administration in all the three spheres of
government by promoting and further entrenching the values of and
principles governing the public administration in section 195(1) of
the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
Section 20 of the Public Administration Management Act allows the
President to determine the effective dates for the different
provision thus allowing a staggered approach in operationalising the
Act. The Department of Public Service and Administration has
commenced work on the drafting of regulations under the Public
Administration Management Act 2014 and has gazetted the first set of
draft resolutions for public comments.
The first set of draft regulations focuses on section 8 and 9 of the
main Act, the Public Service Administration Act.
Mr J M MTHETHWA: Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you very much, hon
Minister, I am satisfied with your reply, I have no follow-up
question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. I don‘t see
any hand, hon Khawula is that an afterthought?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 78 of 177
Mr M KHAWULA: No, Chairperson, I was waiting for the hon Mthethwa to
take his rightful place so that I can follow thereafter. Now that he
has just told us that he doesn‘t have a follow-up question, can I
shoot?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes.
Mr M KHAWULA: Now, hon Minister is the regulations that the Minister
is talking about going to regulate on this practise of the
staggering salaries, especially with the two spheres of government;
the national and the provincial as compared to the other spheres,
which is where you will find a very small municipality with no tax
base at all, having a municipal manager who is earning more than a
director-general of a government department. This is a major course
for concern in this issue of regulating the field, is that going to
be addressed?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, the current
regulations which are being consulted are focusing mainly on
preventing the public servants from doing business with the state.
So, it is an anticorruption measure. If we move to the next phase
those are the sorts of things that we would have to look at over a
period of time.
Mr M RAYI: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to find out from the
Minister, what does the single public service means for the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 79 of 177
collective bargaining. Currently, you have a collective bargaining
for public administration and also you have collective bargaining
for other spheres such as local government which is separate from
the provincial or the national bargaining collective bargaining.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, as we move
towards the creation of a single public service in the country which
is not the reality at the moment, part of the issue would be to
regularise those differences that the member is pointing out. It is
also important for us to understand that underlying the drive
towards a single public service is the ability of the government to
move personnel from one sphere to another. But also to make sure
that again to relate to the earlier question is that we standardise
the salaries and the benefits for all the spheres of government. So,
currently, we are having different chambers of negotiations because
the spheres are still separate but we are going towards that
direction.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Deputy Chair, I just wanted to know on this
proposed legislation if there was an impact study done; if so, what
does it show, in terms of how many public servants who are actually
now doing business with government? Because if they are now out they
might leave the public service and go to their business or they may
opt to stay in the public service. Was there an impact study done
and what does it show; how many people are there and what can be the
likely impact of this on the public service.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 80 of 177
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, the impact
study was not done. However, what we have done is that at the
beginning of August 2016, for six month if there are public servants
who are doing business with government would be allowed to conclude
their transactions, beyond that point they would have to leave the
public service.
Suspended employees
118. Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of Public
Service and Administration:
(a) How many employees are currently on suspension for more
than 60 days in all government departments and (b) what is the
total cost on the salary of these employees?
CO329E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson,
based on the reports received from provinces and national
departments, there are 295 employees who are on suspension. The
total cost of the salaries of these employees is above R33 million.
The breakdown of each department and provinces is annexed to this
question. We will make it available to members if they so wish. This
information is about all employees on suspension and not only those
on suspension for periods longer than 60 days. Thank you very much,
Deputy Chair.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 81 of 177
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, thank you Minister for that concise
answer and it is appreciated that you will make the statistics
available to us. But, yes, our government‘s salary bill is already
very, very high. Employees on suspension are actually placing an
extra burden on government departments. What is the department doing
to reduce this phenomenon in our Public Service? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Obviously, we are
deeply concerned about the time that it takes us to finalise cases.
Collaborating with the Department of Public Service and
Administration, DPSA, Department of Monitoring and Evaluation,
ourselves and the Treasury we have put together a team which begin
to intervene in areas where we seem to be unable to perform. This is
one area where we are intervening. We are dispensing special teams
to assist with the resolution of the disputes to facilitate
resolution of cases. We are doing the same with the 30-days payment
period which kills small businesses. We are intervening actively.
Thank you.
Mr M RAYI: Hon Deputy Chair, I just want the mechanism that could be
put in place to speed up these processes of discipline. You will
find that there are employees who are on suspension for years.
Yesterday I was watching the programme Expresso where General Mdluli
was saying that he has been suspended for six years. Is there no
other mechanism of speeding up? I know, for instance, in the
province when we were engaging with the former premier, Noxolo, she
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 82 of 177
indicated that they could consider retired judges so that they get
involved in trying to speed up such cases and it is a point that she
could sell to your department, Minister. I don‘t know if you could
consider that as part of the mechanisms.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Well, in
principle one would not be opposed to that because what we have
developed now, through the national school of governance, is the
system where we bring in former civil servants, the retired ones, to
come and assist with training. So, I am saying that the principle
sounds okay because the retired judges are being paid even when they
have retired. We don‘t have to respend the money on other people. We
can bring them in, obviously in consultation and hopefully persuade
them to see it as their national duty. I thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I heard
somebody and I forgot to note. I think you will be the last one.
Mr F ESSACK: Deputy Chair, Hon Minister ... [Laughter.] lets get
down to the serious side of the business. Your colleagues are
obviously always trying their protection games. Hon Minister, just
to recap, are there any plans to capacitate the human resource
departments to equip them with the needed skills to then conduct
disciplinary hearings in government departments? Thank you, Chair.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 83 of 177
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I did
not understand it so ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: But if I
understood the question is, are there any plans to capacitate the
units within the department that is dealing with human resources. Of
course, we do give training to our civil servants. We upgrade them
as already explained earlier on and if there are deficiencies we
definitely do intervene. I must say that we are worried about this
issue of outstanding cases that are not resolved. So, I‘ve already
stated intervention mechanisms that we have set up special units to
focus on areas where we are underperforming. Thank you very much.
Finalisation of disciplinary processes
131. Ms T Wana (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Public
Service and Administration:
Whether there is a regulatory framework within his department
which determines the period within which disciplinary processes
should be finalised (details furnished); if not, why not; if
so, what are the relevant details?
CO345E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Yes, now we are
coming back to the same question which we have been dealing with,
anyway, the period within which the disciplinary processes should be
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 84 of 177
finalised is contained in Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining
Council, PSCBC, Collective Agreement Resolution 1 of 2003, which is
the disciplinary code and procedure for the public servants. The
ministerial directive in Chapter 7 of the senior managers‘ handbook,
the period within which disciplinary cases should be dealt with is
contained in clause 7(3)(a) of the code which states that a
disciplinary hearing should be held within ten days of notifying the
employee, that such a hearing will take place.
The outcome of the hearing should be communicated within five
working days in terms of clause 7(3)(0) of the code after the
conclusion of the disciplinary hearing. Clause 7(2)(c) of the code
states that if the employee is suspended or transferred as a
precautionary measure the employer must hold a disciplinary hearing
within a month or 60 days depending on the complexity of the matter
and the length of the investigation.
The chair of the hearing must then decide on any further
postponement. In instances where employees lodge appeals, Clause
8(8) of the code states that the department must finalise them
within 30 days. The combined periods to finalise a disciplinary
process where there are minimal complexities is 90 days. Thank you.
Ms T WANA: Chairperson, Minister, I wanted clarity. Is the
department using the South African Resource Management in the public
sector and if that is the case, what is their role with regard to
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 85 of 177
considering the long service of public servants with regard to
promotions? And with regard to transformation, what is their
framework in terms of Batho Pele which was adopted in 1996? Because
if you look at those professionals, they are too white and when you
look at what they do, they are not far from the apartheid practices.
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: I don‘t have an
answer to that question. I will have to come back to the member
about it. Thank you.
Timeframe for pension pay-outs
143. Dr Y C Vawda (Mpumalanga: EFF) asked the Minister of Public
Service and Administration:
Whether
there
are
any
mechanisms
in
place
to
ensure
that
departments make pension pay-outs within the period prescribed
by
law
(details
mechanisms?
furnished);
if
not,
why
not;
if
so,
what
CO364E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: In terms of
Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council Resolution 1 of
2012, the employer committed to submitting exit documents to the
Government Pension‘s Administration Agency, GPAA, within 30 days of
the employees exit.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 86 of 177
The GPAA further issued a practice notice to all employer
departments as far back as 2014. The practice notice is intended to
inform employer departments of the minimum steps to be taken in the
event that an employee retires from employment.
In terms of Government Employees Pension Law, 1996, the pension
payout should be transferred to the person concerned within 60 days
after submission of all exit documents to the GPAA. In another
words, the GPAA takes up proximately 30 days to process a payment
after the employer department have prepared exit documents and
submitted the documents to the GPAA.
The GPAA also interacts with members and pensioners through road
shows where there are afforded an opportunity to update their
personal information and have their queries attended to on site. In
some instances, the delays are caused by the employees due to their
tax affairs not being in order, changing banks and not informing the
GPAA accordingly, and a host of other reasons amongst others, which
also includes court orders in divorce settlements. Thank you.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I am going to keep it simple this time. Hon
Deputy Minister, this backlogs that take place in the pension
payouts, obviously, this is not something ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We have the Minister in our
midst today.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 87 of 177
Dr Y C VAWDA: My apologies. Did I say Deputy Minister?
[Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Which one are you redeploying?
Who is being redeployed?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, Chief Whip. Hon
Vawda, it is the Minister and not the Deputy Minister.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Apology ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Apology is accepted.
Dr Y C VAWDA: ... I am referring to Deputy Chair, sorry. Hon
Minister, the question that we are asking is that these pension
payouts and the delays in these pension payouts are not universal.
They are not all over. There are certain areas where they are
happening. The question that we are asking is: Whether there is a
plan in place to identify exactly where the backlogs and the reasons
for the backlogs and whether there is a plan in place to build
capacity to ensure that these backlogs do not take place? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Again, it is the
same answer that ... Hon member, what we are doing - where we see
gaps, because what happens in government system now is that we have
clusters and we monitor performance by departments, provinces and we
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 88 of 177
identify problem areas, we colour them red, where we make progress
is yellow, and where there is good performance it is green. We take
measures to move from red to yellow to green in areas where we are
lacking behind. Thank you.
Mr S G THOBEJANE: Minister, this problem ...
... ya go diega ga tefo ya diphenšene, ke nnete. Mohlomongwe se le
swanetšego go se dira ke gore le lebelele gore naa sedirišwa sa lena
sa go monithara ke sa mohuta mang – seo se kgotsofatšago ke gore
batho ba ba tla se tšweletša ka potlako gomme ba se diriša go ya ka
moo molao o ngwadilwego ka gona. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph
follows.)
[... of delayed pension payouts is true. I suggest that you find an
efficient way for people to monitor the progress in respect of their
pension payouts. This is to ensure that their pensions are paid out
timeously as stipulated by the law.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Basically, as I
am saying wherever we have weaknesses, we put measures in place.
That is the job of my department to make sure that problematic areas
identified. We have to diagnose the problem. Just to give you an
example, for instance, the issue of 30 days payment, which is a
standard and a norm. So, you have to ask the question: Why is it
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 89 of 177
that the departments are not able to pay within 30 days? Have we set
the bar too much high? You have to ask those questions.
We are interrogating subjects like that. As we intervene we
discovered that sometimes the problem is not that the bar is too
high but is implementation steps. In another words delegations of
authority, for instance, if only one person is authorised to sign
out a document and there is no other person to do the same. In the
absence of that one, you have a problem, so we are loosening up
those systems. Thank you very much.
Verification of qualifications
130. Mr D L Ximbi (Western Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Public
Service and Administration:
What
measures
authenticity
public
of
service,
has
his
department
qualifications
in
light
of
of
the
taken
current
recent
to
verify
employees
public
in
the
the
sensation
regarding fraudulent and fake qualifications in South Africa?
CO344E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Adv N A
Ramatlhodi): In terms of the public service regulations, all
departments are required to conduct personnel suitability checks on
individuals prior to appointment, as part of the recruitment
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 90 of 177
process. By the way, this goes to an earlier question, which was
asked. These checks are done to ensure that credible individuals are
employed in the public service.
The checks also include qualifications verifications, and are done
with the aim of checking every candidate‘ suitability to employment
in the public service, and for any potentially corrupt practice on
the part of the candidate such as deliberate misrepresentations of
facts.
Some departments also engage in bulk verification, currently
employed by individuals to improve their employee data. The South
African Qualifications Authority as an organ of state and the
custodian of South African qualifications, has been identified
through a directive issued by the Minister of Public Service and
Administration to verify qualifications of both current and
prospective employees in the public service.
If the same authority through their verification process identifies
incidences of alleged misrepresentations or fraudulent
qualifications, then individual departments are alerted by the
authority in the verification report to deal with the matter further
as they may be required.
The authority also reports to the DPSA any case of suspected
misrepresentations. The information provided by the authority only
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 91 of 177
relates to the misrepresentation of the qualification in terms of
the request received by the authority from the departments. Thank
you very much Chair.
Mr D L XIMBI: Thank you Chairperson. Minister, don‘t you think that
the department need to fast track or speed up the implementation of
single administration so that the department can intervene in
fighting corruption, more especially in the municipality, for an
example, in the City of Cape Town whereby the city is employing a
Deputy Director without qualifications and also the city employs an
advisor to the major without qualification, a leader of pota-pota
Loyiso Nkohla ... [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Ximbi, please take your
seat. Oh okay, thank you very much, continue.
Mr D L XIMBI: Thank you, I think – don‘t you think that speeding up
this single administration will help this corruption of people
employed without qualifications, and people employs their friends in
their offices without qualifications; thank you hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Adv N A
Ramatlhodi): We are moving in that direction of creating a single
... [Interjection.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 92 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon Faber order! Order
hon Nthebe!
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Adv N A
Ramatlhodi): We are moving in the direction of a single public
service, the Act provides for that. It is regulations which are
systematically being promulgated and gazetted to operationalise the
Act. Thank you very much.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, is it a House Chair neh, or what it is,
the Deputy House Chair, am I right? Let me say the Presiding
Officer.
You know Minister, the DA had to go to court with the COO of SABC
and we won the case, no qualifications. My thing is, if we want the
public service with zero, nonqualified people in the public service,
why didn‘t your department, at least, I would expect that you can at
least tell the ANC that no, no lets say something about this.
You said nothing about it and it impacts directly on public service,
because what you want to do in the public service is directly
against you. And you said nothing about it. I mean it is taking you
further, but the follow up question that I want to ask also - no, I
don‘t expect the Minister to respond to a political statement, that
is a rule in the House.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 93 of 177
My question is, were any of the officials found guilty of fraudulent
qualifications so far placed on the register of misrepresentation of
qualifications, and on the register of fraudulent qualifications
respectively. If so, are these names available to the public? Thank
you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Adv N A
Ramatlhodi): Well, the state-owned enterprise, SOEs is not regulated
by the department, DPSA. So I would respond to the issue of Ntate
Hlaudi at SABC, it falls outside our scope of responsibility.
Mr J W W JULIUS: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon Julius!
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION (Adv N A
Ramathlodi): Indeed, I said nothing that is why you heard nothing.
[Laughter.] So I did say nothing, I said nothing, that‘s why you
heard nothing hon. Now, the second part of the question, I will have
to come back to you. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister. Question 124 has
been asked by Kgosi Thobejane to the Minister.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 94 of 177
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Sorry? That‘s
done. It‘s 130.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Thank you very much. Question 130
was your last question. You did very well, hon Minister and ...
[Applause.] ... I really want to applaud the hon members for the
order they have shown in this House. As we continue with our
questions I would want to welcome the hon Minister. Before you even
come in, wait for me to ... [Interjections.] Is it on a point of
order?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): That is why I am requesting you to take
your seat and to listen to me.
Mr J W W JULIUS: I just wanted to know what the yardstick for, ―did
well‖ is.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): I did not ...
Mr J W W JULIUS: How do you know the Minister did well?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 95 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): I did not allow you ... I did not give you
permission to speak. [Applause.] Thank you very much. Indeed, the
Minister deserves a round of applause.
Hon members, I have an announcement to make. The hon Minister
Shabangu is going to respond to these questions. Minister Radebe is
attending the UN Assembly in New York and Deputy Minister Manamela
is chairing an interministerial committee in Pretoria. So the hon
Minister is going to take responsibility for the hon Minister in The
Presidency.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): I see the two hon members are standing on
their feet. Can I allow hon Mokwele and then hon ... [Inaudible.]
Sorry?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetulo wa Ntlo, ke rata go tsaya tšhono e go
... [House Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to
...]
... register a concern with regard to the Ministry in The
Presidency. It‘s not the first time that they are doing this. For
the Order Paper to be released and published to us it‘s with the ...
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 96 of 177
Go netefaditswe gore ... [Tsenoganong.] [We were assured that ...
[Interjection.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye, please allow the hon member
to say whatever she wants to say. [Inaudible.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Go netefaditswe gore ... [We were assured that ...]
... Ministers will be available. Hon Jeff Radebe ...
... maloba o tlile fano a araba dipotso, a dira polelo fa a fetsa a
tsamaya. [He was here not so long ago and he answered questions,
made a statement and left ...]
... without even responding to our follow up statements. Secondly,
it has been a while since we saw the Ministers from The Presidency.
So we want to register a concern, hon Chair...
...gore a Ditona di re tlotle, fa ba tshwanetse ba tle mo Ntlong ba
tle mo ntlong. Maitato a Motlatsatona nna ga ke e tseye ... [that
Ministers must respect us. When they are scheduled to come to the
House, they must do so. I do not accept the Deputy Minster‘s
apologies ...]
... as the EFF in this House. Thanks.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 97 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, before I allow the hon Labuschagne
can I raise this letter to the members of the House? Hon Mokwele?
hon Mokwele?
Ke kgopela o lebelele pele, mma. Le go lebelela o lebeledišiše. Go
bolela nnete, taba yeuwe o e bolelago e a kwagala - bjale ditaba
šedi ... (Translation of Sepedi pargraph follows.)
[Please look first, madam. Look carefully. To be honest with you,
you are right – now ...]
... there is an apology ...
... yeo e šetšego e rometšwe; ga go swane le ge re re ga go na motho
yo a lego gona go araba dipotšišo. [... that is already sent out.
Its not like we are saying that there is no one to respond to the
questions.]
So, there is an apology ...
... ye ba e rometšego. Ntlha ya gago ye o e ngwadišitšego re a e
leboga. E kwagetše, e tla fihla ka ofising ya Mopresidente. [...
that is already sent out. Your point is noted. We will ensure that
it is sent to the office of the President.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 98 of 177
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, hon Chair. I want to support the hon
member in what she said but I would like to have clarity. Which
Minister is going to stand in for the Minister in The Presidency
now?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Repeat your question.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Which Minister is going to stand in for the
Minister in The Presidency now? [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): We have Minister Shabangu in front of us
and in the House. She‘s going to ... [Inaudible.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: May I also know what is the date of the letter of
apology to this House? [Interjections.] None of this was raised in
the multiparty forum and/or the programming meeting. That is the
decision-making organisations and structures in this House.
Decisions are not being made by other people. I am a member of those
two bodies and for the second time in this year this is what is
happening here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, hon member, your concern is also
registered. Can you take your seat, ma? Okay, finish then.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 99 of 177
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I would like to know why my point of order with
regard to the date on the letter of apology cannot be divulged to
this House because this is apparent. If the programming committee,
the Chief Whip‘s office or whoever makes decisions in this House its
... [Inaudible.] ... absolutely clear that‘s its not the multiparty
Whips forum or the programming committee because none of these
things were discussed there. Then they should‘ve known if the
Minister apologised long before the time so that we could reschedule
or not allow these questions. We are again going to sit in a
position that when we ask follow up questions those questions will
not be answered. So Chair, can you rule whether the Minister is
going to take the questions on the Paper and the follow ups or is
she only going to take the questions on the Paper.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, thank you very much. I‘ve noticed
your hand, hon Mthimunye. I have a letter of apology in front of us
which is dated today, the 20th, and the reason being that the
Minister was ready to come to the House.
The other thing is that the hon Minister is acting. That is why she
is here. I believe she will take the responsibility.
[Interjections.] Yes. Let‘s allow her to continue, hon members. Hon
Mthimunye, do you still want to say something?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 100 of 177
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Yes. Please Chair, for future purposes lets not
allow this kind of exchange between the presiding officer and
members in subjecting the presiding officer to cross examination on
administrative matters. The exchange of correspondence is between
Parliament and a department. It‘s an administrative matter. And, a
Minister can represent another Minister in terms of the rules, as
long as they agree. It can‘t be debated in this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much. Hon members, please
take your seats. Hon Mthimunye, they were ... I think they are also
allowed to register their points. So we are done with this one. Now
we continue. We are now on Question 124. Hon Minister, you are
welcome. Question 124 has been raised by Kgosi S G Thobejane. Over
to you, hon Minister.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetulo, mo ntlheng ya kgalemo: PeleTona a
araba, ntlha e e motl Mthimunye a e tlhagisang ... [Chairperson, on
a point of order: before the Minister gives an answer, the point
that is raised by hon Mthimunye ...]
... is out of order. You must tell him that he‘s out of order
because he is ... [Interjections] ... a member of the programming
...
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 101 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): The point of order is sustained. Hon
Tebogo ... hon Tebogo ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... and for a member to ask questions of clarity is
outlined in the rules. It‘s outlined in the rules.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Tebogo!
Ms T J MOKWELE: I‘m listening, ma‘am.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Please, I‘m requesting you to be quiet
because the hon member next to you is rising on a point of order ...
... gomme ke nyaka go go bontšha gore ke ahlotše mo morerong wouwe,
mohl Tebogo. Re swanetše re fetele pele, bjale wena o re bušetša
morago. Ga go na taba. Mohl Nyambi! Dula fase, mma. Dula fase, mohl
Tebogo. Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[... and I would like to indicate to hon Tebogo that I have made a
ruling against that. We need to proceed, but you keep taking us
back. No problem, hon Nyambi. Please take your seat, hon Tebogo. I
thank you.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 102 of 177
Mr A J NYAMBI: Chair, let me respectfully submit that you have made
a ruling and the member is challenging your ruling. So, that is why
I am appealing that she is out of order. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order sustained. Continue hon Minister.
Performance monitoring of three spheres
124. Kgoši S G Thobejane (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister in The
Presidency:
What is the role of his department in monitoring performance
across the three spheres of government (details furnished)?
CO338E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR THE MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY: Thank you chairperson. The answer to ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Tebogo, please allow the Minister to
respond to the question.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR THE MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY: The answer to Question 124 from Kgosi Thobejane is as
follows. Since the establishment of the Department of Planning,
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 103 of 177
Monitoring and Evaluation in 2010, it has developed a number of
tools and systems to monitor the work of government across all
spheres of government. At national level the Department of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation monitors the implementation of the
National Development Plan 2030 and the 14 priority outcomes through
the Medium-Term Strategic Framework and the programme of action, and
quarterly reports to Cabinet on progress. All departments are
subject to submit their reports to Cabinet.
Mr S G THOBEJANE: Thank you House Chair and thank you Minister for
the response. The follow up question is as follows. Are you
confident that the tool you are using to play your monitoring and
performance has got the capacity to detect the deficiencies at
whatever level of government?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR THE MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon Kgosi. Just to say that the current tool
we have ... as you know its less than five years since it was
developed. At this stage there are various reports which come and
... having observed by the report ... and we believe that the tool
is effective where we monitor service delivery ... and the citizenbased monitoring tool programme which intends to see whether there
is quality of service provided.
Hon Kgosi, I must also say that whilst we are doing this, at various
times we continue to evaluate the outcome of the reports but also on
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 104 of 177
the basis of that ... then they are able to indicate whether the
tool is effective and we continue to refine it in a way that will
allow us to continue responding adequately to ensure that we get
quality reports.
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon Minister. Hon
Minister, I just want to find out if there are consequences for
nonperformance, and if there are can you just cite examples? In
South Africa you hear of government departments getting disclaimers.
We haven‘t heard of any consequences for Ministers, administrators,
premiers or members of executive councils, MECs. Are there
consequences or is it just a tool? If there are can you cite just
one example?
... eyodwa nje Mhlonishwa? [Uhleko.] [... just one hon Member?
[Laughter.]]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR THE MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Just to indicate that
the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation‘s objective is to assess
the performance of various departments and identify weaknesses and
gaps, but also to be able to show where improvements and
transgressions have happened. When it comes to the question of
whether the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation has a
responsibility of disciplining those who are transgressing; it‘s not
its responsibility. However, its responsibility is to compile
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 105 of 177
reports and make recommendations. Some of those recommendations are
recommendations which departments themselves ... as they are being
identified and transgressions ... As we know the accounting officer
must take responsibility and if there are findings which are made by
Monitoring and Evaluation then the Minister of the respective
department has a responsibility to take necessary measures when his
or her department is not performing accordingly and there are
findings.
Just to assist hon Khawula, its part of what internal audits in
departments look at but it is also what the Auditor-General at the
end identifies. Maybe, as you know the Auditor-General has indicated
that there are sometimes findings where there are no consequences.
However, I can also say that there are departments which have acted
when they are not ... especially the responsible officials ... when
they are not able to implement recommendations ... and giving
progress on programmes of government. We might have to go to the
various departments to give you that report where you can see there
was action taken at some point.
Mr M RAYI: Thank you, Chair. I was going to ask a similar question
that hon Khawula asked. It seems as if we are asking the same
questions because he wrote me a note with regard to the previous one
... that I‘ve taken the question that he was going to ...
However, given that the Minister in The Presidency says that they
don‘t have powers to discipline spheres of government, would the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 106 of 177
Minister in The Presidency consider bringing in legislation to that
effect so that there is consequence management for those that fail
to live up to the expectation — that there is consequence
management?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR THE MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon member. Just to indicate that
it might be a good idea but I don‘t think that the Department of
Monitoring and Evaluation would be the one because we also deal with
civil servants. We have disciplinary codes, processes and procedures
on what are the consequences when departments or officials do not
deliver on their mandates. Part of that is informed by their
performance agreements because what we as Monitoring and Evaluation
are talking about is what departments do. It‘s the work they do
everyday and if they are not doing that work, indeed I agree there
must be consequences and I think the Department of Public Service
and Administration has the necessary tools to discipline officials
who are unable to execute their responsibilities.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Minister. Unfortunately I‘m
left with one member who will be hon Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you, hon Minister. My question is as follows.
Is your department relevant if it doesn‘t have the mandate to take
steps against those who are not performing? Are we not misusing ...
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 107 of 177
[Interjections.] Can I speak, Chair? The hon Chief Whip is
intimidating me. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): I did not notice that. I gave you
permission to speak. I did not notice that.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you. Like I said, do we really need this
Ministry because it doesn‘t have any mandatory duties to discipline?
It just makes the recommendations. So why can‘t we take the budgets
and make sure that we strengthen the Department of Public Service
and Administration so that it can have that capacity to deal with
matters of ... [Interjections.] You see now? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Allow her to finish, hon Chief Whip. Are
you done ma?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ee, o ntshositse ka gonne ke motho yo mogolo akere.
[Setshego.] [Yes, as an elderly person, he scared me. [Laughter.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Please take your seat, hon Tebogo.
Although you are talking about the Ministry, the question deals with
the department. Anyhow, I‘ll leave this in the hands of the Minister
unless the Chief Whip wants to say something.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 108 of 177
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): You do want to?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I do, I do.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT: (Ms M C Dikgale): Mama, please take your seat.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, to my ears that question
sounds like a new question.
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND MEMBERS
SUPPORT (Ms M C Dikgale): Chief Whip that is why I said it will
depend on the Minister as to whether she wants to respond. It is
indeed a new question.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR THE MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chairperson. I think I will respond to the
question. There is an absolute necessity for the department‘s
existence. If there was no need it would not have been created. I
think we need to separate what is done by the Department of Public
Service and Administration from Monitoring and Evaluation. The
Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation is responsible for
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 109 of 177
the evaluation and monitoring of government programmes and servicedelivery effectiveness to the people. The Department of Public
Service and Administration is responsible for conditions of
employment, as the employer of the state. So these are two
completely different responsibilities.
Monitoring and evaluation, which is one of its roles currently, is
to make sure that the Batho Pele principles are implemented. One of
its responsibilities is to make sure that Ministers are able to
deliver on the 14 outcomes but also that there is no conflict
amongst Ministers because sometimes you find that the work they are
doing is complementary ... how best do we have that. Currently we
talk about cluster systems where Ministers come together to maximise
their contributions and delivery of services.
Implementation of National Evaluation System
142. Ms T J Mokwele (North West: EFF) asked the Minister in The
Presidency:
(1)
What is the current state of the (a) implementation and (b)
efficacy of South Africa‘s National Evaluation System;
(2)
whether the system is effective; if not, why not; if so,
(a) why are
departments returning unused
infrastructure
funds to the National Treasury (details furnished);
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(3)
PAGE: 110 of 177
what action is his department taking in instances where
departments are underperforming?
CO363E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY): In November 2011, Cabinet approved the National
Evaluation Policy Framework which sets the basis for the National
Evaluation System. The framework provides a system for government to
evaluate its policies, programmes and systems. Based on the findings
I tabled before Cabinet, the evaluation system has progressed. From
the first evaluation that was completed in 2012 there are 54
national evaluations that have been completed, covering R90 billion
of government expenditure.
In addition, there are 55 provincial evaluations being undertaken
and some of these evaluations are being undertaken by national
department. Therefore, the Department of Planning Monitoring and
Evaluation presents to Cabinet the findings and recommendations of
the evaluations, and the relevant department produces an
implementation plan to address the findings of the evaluation. Focus
is not only on performance but also on assessing the impact of
government policies and programmes as I have indicated earlier on.
Thank you
Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chairperson, to the hon Minister, the main
concern here is that the impression out there is that government
does not work and does not care about the plight of the people. The
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 111 of 177
department of education in the Eastern Cape has been returning
budgets to the National Treasury for many years, and nothing has
been done to ensure that monies allocated are spent for the purpose
they have been allocated. Is the National Evaluation System allowing
for action to be taken against individuals who are not doing their
jobs in the department? If not, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY): House Chairperson, I think my earlier response answered
that. There are systems in government. The Department of Public
Service and Administration is responsible for defining what should
happen to officials who do not execute their responsibilities
adequately. Just to add, when you talk about the Eastern Cape,
especially the department of education, there have been various
interventions: Your section 100 where the national government
intervenes in trying to make a difference.
So, you can say that you do not know but I‘m just saying exactly
what is happening ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, order, hon Mokwele.
[Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY): ... and may I also say that it is not the same. You can
say it is the same but you also need to acknowledge that despite the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 112 of 177
huge backlog, there is a change in the Eastern Cape. There might
still be problems but there are changes, and the national Department
of Basic Education continues to come up with interventions.
So I just want to say that there are mechanisms in government which
intend to address officials who are not doing their work. And I
think some of us can give you people who are unemployed because they
could not fulfil their obligations in government. We have a lot of
them.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you hon Minister even
though she was trying to intimidate you so that you do not respond,
you managed. In the absence of other hands we continue to Question
125. The question deals with the aims of the Operation Phakisa.
Aims of Operation Phakisa
125. Ms G M Manopole (Northern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister in The
Presidency:
Whether Government has achieved the aims of Operation Phakisa
(details
furnished);
relevant details?
if
not,
why
not;
if
so,
what
are
the
CO339E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY): House Chairperson, government of South Africa is on
firm course towards achieving the aims of Operation Phakisa. South
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 113 of 177
Africa‘s approach and methodology for accelerating ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Sorry, sorry, hon Minister.
Okay, hon Mokwele ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: On a point of order. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): ... I have noticed that the
hon Manopole is not in the House and the hon Chief Whip is also not
here. My apologies that I did not check before allowing the hon
Minister to respond. Order sustained. Can we ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, let‘s not do that. Hon Manopole is not
in the House so this question cannot be taken in terms of the rules
and you did not indicate it. Please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): We will continue to question
... Hon Khawula?
Mr M KHAWULA: House Chair, because this will happen to one of us in
the future, I want it to be put in order like this: It is not only
that hon Manopole is not in the House but also because there is no
arrangement.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 114 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): That is what I said and I
have apologised on that one. Hon Minister, please take us through
question 136. May I check if ever the hon Engelbrecht is in the
House?
M & E framework for SOEs
136. Ms B A Engelbrecht (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister in The
Presidency:
Whether there is a monitoring and evaluation framework that has
been developed for all state-owned enterprises (SOEs) since the
appointment
of
the
President
of
the
Republic
as
the
new
Chairperson of the Presidential SOE Coordinating Council; if
not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO357E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms S Shabangu for the
Minister in the Presidency): Chairperson, there is no monitoring
evaluations systems designed specifically for monitoring state-owned
enterprises, SOEs. Since the President has been appointed as the
chair of the council, some of those issues are still to be
developed. But also through shareholder compacts, they enter as
government through Ministers into shareholder ... They take
responsibility to monitor the performance of state-owned assets.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chair, I am not sure I understood the Minister
clearly. The way I understood her, she said there is no monitoring
and evaluation framework which is very concerning, because if that
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 115 of 177
is true then it makes sense why the Chief Operating Officer, COO,
Hlaudi Motsoeneng was allowed to authorise the dismissal of four
journalists. My question then is: What plans does the department
have to create this monitoring and evaluation framework to ensure
that the state-owned entities do not actually create some more rogue
COOs like what has just happened? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms S Shabangu for the
Minister in the Presidency): Chairperson, may I say after that, as
legislatures who do oversight would understand the law better. What
does the King Commission says about the independence of boards and
their responsibility. So, I just want to say we can‘t be an anomaly
government where we are going to create law as this government of
disciplining state-owned individuals, but also in a way that we will
be flouting our own Constitution? I think we understand the laws of
this country. We are the law makers.
We know exactly that there is a question of boards of SOEs or any
institutions to be independent in running those assets, hence Kings
Commission. I would urge the hon member to go and read; especially
now that it has been further refined in making sure that corporate
governance is very strong. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): We are now going to Question
121 asked by the hon M J Mohapi and I have received an indication
that the hon Mthimunye is entrusted with answering this question.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 116 of 177
Self-monitoring and evaluation
121. Mr M J Mohapi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister in The
Presidency:
Whether
there
evaluation
tools
are
and
any
over-arching
systems
within
self-monitoring
the
Government
to
and
(a)
track, (b) monitor and (c) evaluate government performance on a
continuous basis (details furnished); if not, why not; if so,
what are the relevant details?
CO335E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms S Shabangu for the
Minister in the Presidency): The Department of Monitoring and
Evaluation has a government-wide monitoring and evaluation systems
to monitor the implementation of government performance against
priorities. The Medium Term Strategic Framework, MTFS, is the tool
we use as I have indicated, to implement government‘s 14 outcomes.
Performance against the 14 outcomes are monitored and reported to
the government programme of action system. Also monitor progress
against other priority areas such as the nine-point plan. Quarterly
progress reports are plans and are produced against these and
submitted to Cabinet. Thank you.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon House Chair, just to make a little follow up
around these tools, whether the tools and system don‘t transverse to
those provided for by the Constitution to Parliament?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 117 of 177
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms S Shabangu for the
Minister in the Presidency): Definitely they are not. They
compliment what Parliament does, but it also assist Parliament in
making sure that when the Department of Performance Monitoring and
Evaluation appears in Parliament, they are able to offer you
information which Parliament might not have had an opportunity in
being able to access. So, it‘s a department which is necessary in
making sure that it strengthens and helps us, but it also make sure
that we are accountable, because as we are a new government, there
are also issues of strengthening systems in making sure that issues
of governance, accountability and also financial matters in our
systems are properly done. So, it compliments Parliament instead of
being something which might collude or end up going against what
Parliament does. Thank you.
Impact of GDP on 2033 outcomes
115. Mr F Essack (Limpopo: DA) asked the Minister in The Presidency:
(1)
How has the subsequent regression of the Gross Domestic
Product
growth
impacted
on
the
2033
outcomes,
given
Operation Phakisa‘s 4% growth per annum projection;
(2)
which of the 13 focus areas will make achieving the 2033
outcomes a challenge?
CO326E
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 118 of 177
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (for The MINISTER IN THE
PRESIDENCY): Operation Phakisa is a South African government
approach and a methodology for accelerating delivery on a national
priority which is espoused in the National Development Plan, NDP,
and does this faster and efficiently. NDP 2030 sets out the
following outcomes: Objectives for employment and growth; a decrease
in the unemployment rate of 25% to 14% in 2020 and to 6% in 2030; a
rise in labour force participation rate from 54% in 2010 to 645 –
about 11 million additional jobs by 2030.
In keeping with the NDP 2030, the first component of Operation
Phakisa which focuses on the ocean economy was launched in 2014.
Government together with its social partners set an aspiration
target of growing the gross domestic product, GDP, and contributing
to our ocean economy by between R129 billion and R177 billion by
2033, with between 800 000 and 1 million jobs being created.
Major milestones have been attained towards achieving the aims of
Operation Phakisa since its inception in July 2014. The ocean
economy component of Operation Phakisa has unlocked R17 billion in
both public and private sector investments and a total of 4903 jobs
are being created. Thank you.
Mr A J NYAMBI: I rise on a point. Hon House Chair, I thought you
will give an opportunity to hon Essack from EEF in Limpopo and not
the one from Mpumalanga.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 119 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): It‘s not a point
of order because there is an initial attached to it, Mr F Essack.
Mr F ESSACK: It was a typographical error, ma‘am. I don‘t think it‘s
an issue.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Hon
Essack, please take your seat. And where is the hon F.Essack, from
Limpopo? He is not in the House. We were supposed to receive a note
from the office of the Chief Whip that the hon Essack from
Mpumalanga will stand on behalf of the hon Essack from Limpopo. So,
we didn‘t get that. Hon House Chairperson of Committees, you have
saved the situation. Please take your seat. Let‘s continue. Hon
Minister ... Order! Hon Essack, you are not from Limpopo, you are
from Mpumalanga. Okay, please take your seat hon Essack. Hon Essack,
allow democracy to reign in this House. I am ruling and I am asking
you to take a seat. Okay, hon members, we will also jump Question
116 and go to ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetulo, mo ntlheng ya kgalemo: Santlha
Modulasetulo ... [Chairperson, on a point of order: Firstly,
Chairperson ...]
... I think you are from Limpopo. You know that you don‘t have
Essack in Limpopo. And the name there is for a member of this House.
The only challenge we are having, is the Question Paper that was
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 120 of 177
typed from wherever, it‘s not a member‘s fault. The question is for
the hon member from Mpumalanga. What you need to do on your side is
just to rectify the mistake that was done by the administration and
allow hon Essack to ask a follow up question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele ...
Ke go kwele. Ke go kwele gabotse; madimabe ga ke šome ka diphošollo.
Nna sa ka ke go bona gore Letlakala la Dipotšišo le tšwela pele. Ka
go realo, ke nagana gore ge e ba o na le pelaelo, o tla ngwalela
Ofisi ya Sefepi Segolo ... Aowa, aowa, mohl Mokwele, ke sa bolela
wena o emeletše o re aowa. Ke kgopela gore o dule fase o ntheeletše.
Se se diregago gonabjale ke gore re tšwela pele, mohl Mokwele ...
(Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[I have heard you loud and clear. Unfortunately I don‘t deal with
amendments on the question paper. My job is to read out the list of
question as set out on it. I suggest that you refer any complaints
to the Office of the Chief Whip ... No, no, hon Mokwele, I am still
talking to you and you already up. That is unacceptable. Please be
seated and listen to what I hav to say. We need to proceed, hon
Mokwele ...]
I have made a ruling on that one, we continue. Hon Mokwele, I want
to recognise hon Faber and you are making a lot of noise there.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 121 of 177
Mr W F FABER: House Chair, it cannot be that because the
administration made a boo-boo with hon Essack by putting him on
Limpopo that these questions can‘t be answered. That cannot be. If
there was an administrative mistake, then it‘s definitely not the
issue of the hon member that posed the question, but an
administrative issue. We cannot now say that because this hon member
Essack is not here, we all know that this is hon Essack. So, please,
I would like you to rule on this. Otherwise unfortunately you have
to take us further; we cannot just leave it like this.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon
members. Hon Faber, you what to do if you are not satisfied. We
don‘t have the member from Limpopo and we don‘t even know where he
is. So, you can complain in writing to the office of the Chief Whip.
Unless if we ask the Chief Whip because ... Okay, hon Essack, please
take your seat. Hon Chief Whip is here, maybe she will clarify us
and we can take it from there. Hon Essack, I requested you to take a
seat, and then I will give you a chance after the Chief Whip.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: I am rising to say that the Chair has already made
a ruling on this matter. Allowing the Chief Whip to make an input on
this matter is taking this House backward. I want to submit that we
progress and move to the next question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): I have made a
ruling on Question 115. Now we are on Question 116. So, that is why
I want clarity from the Chief Whip. Hon Chief Whip ... Hon members,
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 122 of 177
please take your seats. You know how to complain. Hon Chief Whip,
there is a problem here. We are on Question 116 ... Yes. Hon Mampuru
... All of you standing, I am not going to recognise you. I am now
going to recognise the Chief Whip. The Chief Whip must clarify us.
Ms T K MAMPURU: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Then you didn‘t
notify the table. Hon Mampuru, please take your seat. What you are
saying is what we said. That‘s why I am not going to allow all of
you to speak. I want the Chief Whip because our offices aren‘t
dealing with this. After you have checked with the staff, you didn‘t
tell anyone. We are not even aware that you were busy there. Hon
Chief Whip ... Hon Mampuru, please respect the table, please. Hon
Chief Whip, why is this happening? Question 115 and 116 were asked
by the hon Essack from Limpopo province and he is not here.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: House Chair, with regards to the
logistics of how questions are being tabled, we do have the
questions office. To take this House forward Chairperson, let us
receive the responses. The department has the responses irrespective
of who comes from which province. The department is here. We are not
talking amongst ourselves here; we are talking to the citizens of
the country out there. My plea Chairperson, from your position and
your kind heart, can you have the people of the Republic get the
answer which the department has prepared.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 123 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Before we can
listen to your request ... Please take your seat hon Chief Whip. We
want to know who this hon Essack from Limpopo is. We don‘t want to
set the precedence ...
... ke gore ga re nyake go bea taba ye e lego gore le gosasa e tla
... [that will put us in a difficult situation to handle in future.]
... it will follow us; it will haunt us. If the member is not in the
House and there was no arrangement made with the table, then we have
to leave the question and go to another question.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: House Chair, the Rule you are alluding
to, from where I sit ... I must be educated on the Rule of leaving a
question ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Which one? Are
you referring to the one about the member not being in the House?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: No, I am talking about if members are
allocated to provinces they don‘t belong to - that particular Rule.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Chief Whip
... Hon members please take your seats. I want to be clear with the
Chief Whip. Are you saying ... Hon Chief Whip ...
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 124 of 177
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Okay. No, it‘s not my question, it‘s not
my query. It looks like now I am under interrogation here.
[Laughter.] I wanted ... Yes; I wanted the House to move forward.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Chief Whip,
that‘s what we want. But I want to check ... This matter is chaotic.
You said ... No; I want to check ... Can you allocate me a question
and say I am from KwaZulu-Natal whereas I am from Limpopo? Can you
do that?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Because this one
is from Limpopo. If it is a typing error, Chief Whip, you must say
it, and then we move forward.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: What must I say?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): If it is a
typing error. Is this hon Essack from Limpopo or from ...
[Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: I think it is obvious. We don‘t have an
Essack from Limpopo. It‘s obvious. It‘s a typing error.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 125 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Now, hon
Chief Whip, we wanted to hear that. Hon Nyambi, you are the one who
raised a point of order on this matter. The hon Chief Whip says this
is a typing error, and then we can take it. Now we have the reason.
And the hon Minister has already responded to that question. So, hon
Essack, you can make your follow up. Take your seats, hon members.
No, the Chief Whip says it‘s a typing error. Hon Essack, please
continue. I did not allow you to speak hon member. Take your seat.
Mr F ESSACK: I have defected.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Before you, hon
Mokwele let me allow hon Gaehler.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, I do not believe it‘s a typing error. I
think the problem lies with the question of sending to presiding
officers, because Question 134 as I said previously, was for a
written reply. And the question that was for oral reply did not
appear on the Question Paper. So, there is a problem that we all
need to address. The House needs to be managed properly. There is a
problem. It‘s not a mistake. My question was for a written reply and
not for oral reply. It is the second time this mistake is happening
today.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Like my learned colleague has already alluded, we
need to put this on record that we are having a challenge in terms
of the running of this House. In most instances we find ourselves
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 126 of 177
dealing with issues that are of logistical nature. It is not the
first time. Today, this problem is repeating itself. Please put it
on record that we have problems in the House – the problem of the
running of the House both administratively and the Whippery side so
that we do not come across the same mistakes. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Well, as the
presiding officer for today, I have acknowledged that it was a
typing error and therefore we continue. Hon Faber, I want to move
forward.
Mr W F FABER: House Chair, we can go forward, but then you must
retract your ruling because you already ruled that we go on. Now, if
that was the ruling, then you have to now reverse your ruling.
That‘s all I want to say.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay. Maybe you
didn‘t hear me. I said the hon Essack must continue with his follow
up question, meaning that we are allowing him to continue.
Mr F ESSACK: What does the House want?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, you
are now out of order. I allowed you to make your follow up question.
Please, leave hon Mokwele alone.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 127 of 177
Mr F ESSACK: The problem is that hon Nyambi ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Nyambi
is quiet. It‘s hon Mokwele.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon House Chair, I just needed clarity before I ask my
follow up question. With absolute due respect and respect for the
chair that you are occupying, the fact that you allowed the Minister
to answer the question in the first instance, you should have
realised there that it was not an issue of a typographical error ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): There was no
point of order. That‘s why I allowed the Minister. Continue with
your follow up question hon member.
Mr F ESSACK: Yes. If you look on the next page, I am on again under
the same ... Let‘s not go back there. In any case, let me just do
this one slowly so that the hon Minister can capture my follow up
question comfortably. Right, hon Minister, with the increased
fruitless and wasteful expenditure linked to failed supply chain
management procedures as reported by the Auditor-General, in his
consolidated Financial Management Act, FMA, as well as the Public
Finance Management Act, PFMA, reports, what steps have been
implemented to combat these escalating corruption referring to focus
point 12? I thank you.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 128 of 177
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms S Shabangu for the
Minister in the Presidency): House Chair, this is a complete new
question. May I read the question to you? The question says: How has
the subsequent regression of the GDP growth impacted on the 2030
outcomes given Operation Phakisa‘s 4% growth per annum projection?
Which of the 13 focus area will make achieving 2033 outcomes a
challenge? So, all issues raised by the member are so irrelevant.
The member can put that as a new question to the Minister. Thank
you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack,
please, I didn‘t allow you to speak. No, you are not allowed ... You
are continuing to speak and I didn‘t allow you to. Hon Essack! Why
that dialogue?
Mr F ESSACK: The 13 focus points. And my question says ... I am
referring to focus point 12. What is so complicated about that hon
Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon Minister
gave us a response. Can we continue? She said it‘s a new question.
Please, respect that. According to the Minister, it is a new
question. Hon Faber, why are you standing? Hon Essack, please take
your seat. The Hon member is on the floor. [Laughter.] Hon Essack,
take your seat. In the first place I did not even allow you to
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 129 of 177
speak. You just spoke without being recognised. Hon Essack, please
take your seat!
Mr F ESSACK: I am sitting ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): You are
standing. You are not sitting. [Laughter.] Hon Faber, let me allow
hon Ximbi because he stood up before you. Take your seat.
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I have a concern about this. I would like
to appeal to you even if you have a ruling on this. I would advise
that we need to go and investigate whether the hon member has indeed
asked a question to the department. I think that will help. I think
he is misleading or he is taking advantage of being here. Thank you
Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Ximbi, I
have made a ruling on that matter, please. Let‘s not take the
decorum of this House to where it does not belong. Hon Faber, why
are you on your feet?
Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, I am standing on a point of order.
Hon Essack had a very good follow up question. If the Minister
cannot answer it, can we at least then ask the Minister whether the
relevant Minister can respond in a written reply to make it fair to
hon Essack? I just don‘t think it is fair for a Minister if she
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 130 of 177
doesn‘t have the ability to answer the question, to say it‘s a new
question because it is not fair to the question. I really believe
that we should ask the Minister whether the relevant Minister can
give us a written reply, then we won‘t be defeating the objective.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Faber, it is
very wrong of you to say that the hon Minister does not have the
ability to answer the question. The Minister stood up and even
encouraged the member to put the question in writing. So, can we
continue? We are now on Question 116 asked by the hon Essack. What
is the problem hon Mokwele? Why are you on your feet?
Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, I am about to tell you why am I on my
feet. No, the Minister read on one page and didn‘t go to the next
page where there is talk about the supplementary question from hon
Essack. She read the first part of the question. This question
overlaps to the next page, Minister, as asked by the hon Essack. So,
if you don‘t have the answer now, you must just apologise ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): No.
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... Yes it goes there, just read the second part.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): No. We are
listening to what you are saying ... [Interjections.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 131 of 177
Ms T J MOKWELE: That is the second part. She says no, it‘s the
second part of the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Don‘t listen to
her. Look at me because I am the one who allowed you to speak not
the hon Minister. Can I check with the hon Minister if indeed you
did not check part two of the question? Okay, allow the hon Minister
to respond. She is in the House.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY (Ms S Shabangu for the
Minister in the Presidency): I think when I don‘t have glasses I
even see better. Let me read it to you. Question 1, because I cant
see due to my age, I will put on the glasses to read: How has the
subsequent regression of the GDP growth impacted on the 2033
outcomes given Operation Phakisa‘s 4% growth per annum projection?
Is it not the same? Question 2: Which of the 13 focus areas which
make achieving 2033 outcomes a challenge? I have responded to that.
If you have captured my answer, it did cover the question as per the
Question Paper. The new question which arose, I still insist that it
is a new question. The member can put it in writing but also, I want
to say I am highly competent enough. That is why I respect this
House to come and answer questions about the Ministry. Thank you.
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (MS M C Dikgale): I even ruled on
that matter that you do have the ability. Hon members, can we now
continue to Question 116 asked by the hon F Essack from Mpumalanga.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 132 of 177
You are on your feet hon Essack and I don‘t know why. Why are you
standing hon Essack? We have ruled on the matter and we are moving
to the next question.
Mr F ESSACK: Hon House Chair, before you move to my next question,
we have heard the response from the hon Minister. She said very
clearly and I say this with due respect that she is very ‗capable
and well versed.‘ I pointed and referred you back and it is on
Hansard. My question is specifically a follow up question based on
focus point 12. My question covers the 13 focus points. The hon
Minister says she is more than capable of answering. She even read
out the question - Which of the 13 focus areas which make achieving
2033 outcomes a challenge? My follow up question is based on focus
point 12. Allow the Minister to answer the question and if she is
not capable she must say it ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, you
are now out of order. We have ruled on the matter and you know how
to complain. If ever you aren‘t satisfied, please, follow the
correct procedure. Now, we are on Question 116 to the hon Minister.
Order hon members!
Sexual abuse of girls
116. Mr F Essack (Limpopo: DA) asked the Minister of Women in The
Presidency:
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 133 of 177
Whether, with reference to the statement by the Deputy Minister
of Social Development (details furnished), she has taken any
steps
to
address
the
sexual
abuse
of
vulnerable
girls,
particularly in the rural areas; if not, why not; if so, what
are the relevant details?
CO327E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: My department participated
in the girls‘ assembly and we are happy with the various
interventions by the Department of Social Development. They have put
in place part of the process, having identified the challenges faced
by the girls in opening criminal cases on behalf of the girls who
are pregnant or gave birth whilst under the age of consent.
Counselling and the partnership with the Soul City are happening.
Love Life and civil society organisations are engaged in empowering
the girls with positive life skills. And we will continue working
together with the Department of Social Development in the
implementation of programmes that ensure that the girl child is at
school but also make sure that they are empowered. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Essack, do you have a
follow-up question?
Mr F ESSACK: Absolutely, of course! Chairperson, it‘s me on the
floor again. [Laughter.] Hon Minister, I will go slowly again
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 134 of 177
because I see you lose touch with the different focus points.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Essack we cannot
allow that, no.
Mr F ESSACK: Allow me to carry on. So my follow-up question hon
Minister is, Is there a difference - or maybe you will tell me if
it‘s another question, but anyway let‘s try. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M C Dikgale): Hon Essack ...
Mr F ESSACK: Is there a difference in the prevalence in pre-18
pregnancies in rural and urban areas? In simple words what I am
basically saying is: What is the extent of the problem in other
areas? I made it very easy now. Thank you Deputy Chair.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, may I plead how we
address each other. May I plead for your intervention?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M C Dikgale): Yes, that is why I came in.
I asked him to stop what he was doing but to focus on ...
[Interjections.] ... the words that he was uttering.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Can I say that the issue
...
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 135 of 177
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M C Dikgale): What is your point of order?
Mr C HATTINGH: The member must sit so that I can put it, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M C Dikgale): The Minister; she is not a
member of this House.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Minister is it Parliamentary to ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M C Dikgale): Hon Mthimunye!
Mr C HATTINGH: Hey, gaan terug Vryburg toe, jy! [Go back to Vryburg,
you!]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M C Dikgale): You are protected. Don‘t
even listen to him. [Laughter.]
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, on a point of order: Is it Parliamentary
to refer to a member - you did it and the Minister did it - as He
and not referring to a hon member? You did it. I heard it and don‘t
tell me you didn‘t do it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M C Dikgale): Thank you very much, hon
member. Hon Minister, the members in this House are hon members and
not He or She. Thank you. Continue. [Laughter.]
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 136 of 177
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, I must acknowledge
that the issue of young girls both in urban and rural areas on early
pregnancies and exposed to matters of giving birth to children
before their time is a challenge for the country. It is a matter
that we, together with the Department of Social Development, are
addressing hence part of what we will be doing is to roll out
national dialogues and reaching out to them. Also making sure that
Thuthuzela centres are not only in urban areas. They go to the rural
areas and make sure that young girls are protected. I also want to
say that part of the programme is to make sure that young girls are
at school instead of being in other places.
The challenge which we are facing, as we know, is that this
patriarchal society makes these young girls vulnerable. Hence, we
have the Department of Social Development which is able to offer
families support through various social grants in making sure that
the young children or girls are at school and don‘t continue to
become victims of sexual abuse. And the various awareness programmes
which we run at different times are intended to reach out to the
young girls in making sure that they can value and be educated to
take care of their lives.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you hon Minister for the response and thank
you for forcing or allowing a girl child to go to school. But for
us, speaking without any action won‘t result into anything that will
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 137 of 177
benefit the very same person that we are concerned about. So, I want
to know whether your department will initiate legislation where we
force ...
... bana go tsaya maikarabelo. Puso e netefatsa jang gore bana bao
ba ba tshwanetseng go ya sekolong ka dingwaga tse tshwanetseng ba a
ya? Ke eng seo lefapha le ka se dirang go netefatsa gore re a
gatelela gore bana rona, segolobogolo bao ba leng kwa magaeng, ba ya
kwa sekolong go bona thuto le go tokafatsa matshelo a bone? Dilo tsa
go tshwana le tshotlakako ka thobalano di ka fokotsega mo setšhabeng
sa rona gonne ba tlabo ba na le kitso ya go itshireletsa. Ke a
leboga.
TONA YA BASADI KWA KANTORONG YA MOPORESITENTE: Go bua ka kgang ya
bana ba basetsana segolobogolo bao ba santseng ba gola e bile ba
tsietsega bonolo, Lefapha la Thuto ya Motheo le na le mananeo ao e
leng gore a gapeletsa bana gore ba tsene sekolo. Go na le mekgatlo
ya baagi e e leng teng kwa makeisheneng a rona le kwa magaeng e e
dirang ka thata go leka gore ngwana wa mosetsana a tsene sekolo.
Re tshwanetse go tshwaragana! Ke batla go gatelela seno, gore re
kgone go tswelela pele, batsadi le bona ba tshwanetse go tsaya
maikarabelo a bana ba bona go re kgontsha go dira mmogo go thusa
bana ba basetsana. Ga jaana bothata jo re na leng bone ke batsadi ba
ba ithayang ba re sekolo ke sone se se tshwanetseng go ba phuthela
bana; mme ba sa bone ba na le tshwanelo ya go ba tlhokomela.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 138 of 177
Jaanong, nna jaaka leloko la Ntlo eno e e tlotlegang ke a re rona
mmogo re tshwaraganeng, re thusaneng segolobogolo kwa magaeng le kwa
makeisheneng gore bana ba rona ba ithute.
Lefapha la Thuto ya Motheo le dikampa tsa go fitlhelela setšhaba di
kopanya bana ba basetsana le go ba ruta maitsholo. Sa botlhokwa ke
gore baagi ba tshwaragane go rotloetsa bana ba bone go ithuta. Ke a
leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[... children to take responsibility. How does the government ensure
that children who have to attend school at the required age are able
to attend? What can the department do to emphasise that our
children, especially those in the rural areas, should attend school
and to improve their lives? Things like sexual abuse would decrease
in our society because they will have the knowledge to protect
themselves. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: IN respect of the issue of
girl children who are still growing up and are easily deceived, the
Department of Basic Education has programmes in place that ensure
that children are forced to attend school. There are also civil
organisations in our townships and rural areas that work hard to try
to ensure a girl child attends school.
We have to work together! I would like to emphasise that in order
for us to progress, the parents should also take responsibility for
their children to make it possible to work together in helping a
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 139 of 177
girl child. The challenge we currently have is that of parents who
think that it is the school only that has the responsibility of
taking care of and guiding their children. They don‘t see the need
for them to help the school to achieve this goal. As a member of
this august House I am appealing that we work together and that we
help each other, especially in the rural areas and the townships to
ensure that our children receive an education.
The Department of Basic Education and the outreach camps are uniting
girl children and teaching them how to behave in a good way. The
important thing is for the communities to unite in encouraging their
children to get education. Thank you.]
Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chair, the reference is on the Deputy Minister
of Department of Social Development on the question. One of the
points that she raised with regard to the rural areas where there is
sexual abuse, is a particular municipality in the North West, Ratlou
Local Municipality where about 3 000 underage girls have been sexual
abused. I wanted to check what sort of legal steps other than
advocacy for the underage girls have been taken against men who have
done these horrible things. But also with regard to advocacy, it
could be that you have raised it but I was too slow for the
interpretation. What is the role of other departments in terms of
collaboration with regard to advocacy, the Departments of Basic
Education, Health, Women as well as Social Development? Thanks.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 140 of 177
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, we are working
with all the departments. If you look at the programme of
government, the integrated programme of action which was developed
through inter-ministerial committee and headed by the Department of
Social Development. It is part of the programme where we look at
advocacy and how best we can make sure that we reach out to all
corners of South Africa through advocacy and education, but also
through intervention because when you do advocacy you also need to
come up with mechanisms of intervention.
What kind of interventions are we referring to, specifically when
you refer to the challenges faced by this particular committee when
it comes to the young girls? The Deputy Minister herself decided to
go to the police stations to open cases of statutory rape against
these particular individuals who had committed such crimes but also
destroying the lives of young girls. So what we have agreed with the
Department of Social Development is that we are going to make a
follow up in making sure, especially in this particular area that
drastic or necessary steps are taken against these men who have gone
out of their way to commit statutory rape because indeed these are
very young children. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Minister, thank you very much for the answers
and we know that that it is a combined effort of various departments
to be able to handle this problem. I would like to know if the
Minister in the Presidency would be able to give us an undertaking
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 141 of 177
that she will lobby and advocate the Department of Health to
incentivise the training of forensic nurses to support and help them
through the process in the Thuthuzela centres to increase the
conviction rate of those who abuse these young women. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon member, I think it‘s
not just about lobbying for Thuthuzela centres. It is about looking
at the holistic approach of the Thuthuzela centres as they stand or
are designed today and be able to say, what is it that needs to be
done because when you talk about Thuthuzela centres, it‘s not only
about the nurse. We need Social Workers, Police, National
Prosecuting Authority, NPA which are already there. How do we
increase this capacity? But also, one of the things we are looking
at today is how best do we position them to ensure that they are
effective and the outcome or the work that they are doing is in such
a way that we can see a deterrence or complete eradication of abuse,
not only for girls, but for women at large because that is its
responsibility. Therefore, we are reviewing Thuthuzela centres and
see how to also make sure that you don‘t find them only in cities
but they also stretch to rural areas in a way that all women can
have an opportunity of accessing services.
Promotion of women socio-economic empowerment
122. Ms T Wana (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Women in
The Presidency:
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 142 of 177
What are the (a) achievements of and (b) challenges faced by
her department in its programme of (i) women empowerment and
(ii) gender inequality (details furnished)?
CO336E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the
department‘s strategy with regard to the socioeconomic empowerment
of women and the promotion of gender equality is to focus on
producing valid data and information - such as the report on the
status of women in the South African economy which was launched by
the President in 2015 - which forms the basis for the President‘s
directive to the economic cluster to put the issue of women
inclusion at the centre of our plans especially the nine-point plan.
We also have outreach programmes that would contribute to nationbuilding and social cohesion such as the 16 Days of Activism for No
Violence Against Women and Children, the national dialogues in
municipalities and sectors, monitoring and evaluating the
implementation of the Integrated Programme of Action Addressing
Violence Against Women and Children and the implementation of the
presidential directive. That is what we are doing.
The major challenges we have experienced were the restructuring of
the department to deliver on its new mandate and of being under
resourced which has consequences on our ability to attract the right
skills set to drive the restructuring. We are currently engaging
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 143 of 177
with National Treasury on the issue but also the Department of
Public Service and Administration. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Wana, do you
have a follow up question?
Ms T WANA: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay.
Ms T WANA: Chairperson to the Minister, thank you for the answer. My
follow-up question is as follows: Looking at the promotions through
socioeconomic empowerment, what percentage of disabled women have
participated in this programme and what percentage of women have
been appointed in managerial positions in this department? Thank
you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister,
you are free to bring the percentages if you ever do not have them.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: As the department we are at
3% when it comes to the employment of people living with disability.
We are also proud to say to this House that our ICT person is
someone who has challenges with sight. So we have empowered the
people. At the level of the department in terms of women employed in
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 144 of 177
senior management position, if I am not wrong, we are at 67%. Am I
right director-general? Yes, I am right we are 67% compliant.
Generally speaking we have produced the report which gives us
figures on the status of women in the various sectors. However, I
will not be able to go into the details of that report now. The
recent challenge as shown by the report is that in South Africa
whilst more learners and students are going to schools and
universities only 3% of them are black Africans and 19% are from the
white communities. These are indications of the inequalities that we
continue to see growing in our country. So these are some of the
issues in our view, we, as a department, are looking at breaking
down to check their impact when it comes to women empowerment in
South Africa.
Mr M RAYI: Hon House Chair, hon Minister, we have domestic workers,
most of them are women. I wanted to find out what is it that the
department is doing to assist domestic workers who are mainly women
in terms of socioeconomic empowerment; and also to safeguard them
against exploitation by their employers. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: When it comes to domestic
workers, as we know, they fall under the Department of Labour.
However, we are not just looking at domestic workers alone, but at
all women who are working. Working together with the Department of
Labour, we have various programmes through which we intend to
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 145 of 177
empower women. This includes, amongst others, programmes such as
‗equal work for equal pay.‘ Because of the challenges faced by
domestic workers, working through the inspectorate of the Department
of Labour, we continue to encourage them to register with the
Department of Labour in making sure that their rights are not being
undermined. We continue to make sure that domestic workers are safe
from the threats made against them in the work environment. Working
through various forums and izimbizo, our department together with
the Department of Labour is committed to making sure that domestic
workers know their rights but also know what they can and cannot do.
But key amongst all these, is the awareness about their rights and
to report abuse and violation of their rights by the employer.
Study on violence against women and children
144. Ms T J Mokwele (North West: EFF) asked the Minister of Women in
The Presidency:
Whether her department has implemented the recommendations on
the study commissioned on violence against women and children
in 2013 (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are
the relevant details?
CO365E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the Study on
Violence Against Women in South Africa provided a number of
recommendations not only for the department, but for policy makers,
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 146 of 177
donors, programme implementers as well as researchers. The
Department of Women has been implementing most of these
recommendations through different programmes and activities. We
have, for example,
roll-out interventions aimed at changing social
norms around masculinity and gender relations, the use of violence,
enhancing the social and economic empowerment of women and girls.
These interventions include our programme of 365 days of activism
which also targets men because unless we are able to bring men
onboard who are perpetrators of violence we would not be able to
change the patriarchal society of our country.
We work with civil society, traditional leaders, religious
fraternity as well as rural people. We have the interministerial
committee, IMC, on the integrated programme of action where all
departments are required to implement including the Justice, Crime
Prevention and Security cluster. Thank you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, no follow up question.
Women in Business Master-Class Series
127. Ms G M Manopole (Northern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of
Women in The Presidency:
(1)
How
does
the
Women
in
Business
Master-Class
initiative effectively benefit women in South Africa;
Series
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(2)
whether the private sector is
PAGE: 147 of 177
playing any role in the
agenda to transform and enable women to fully participate
in the economy; if not, why not; if so, what role?
CO341E
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES (Ms M C
Dikgale): We proceed to Question 127 asked by hon G M Manopole. Hon
members, I am happy to inform you that the hon Chief Whip has
entrusted this question to hon Motara. So, hon Motara will be
responsible for Question 127. Over to you, hon Minister!
Ms T J MOKWELE: I don‘t know if I am correct, Chair. You will tell
me if I am out of order. Initially there was no arrangement made for
hon Manopole. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES (Ms M C
Dikgale): Hon Motara, please, please, please!
Ms T J MOKWELE: I am calm. I am calm and I don‘t want to cause any
fight; please, please, please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES (Ms M C
Dikgale): Hon members, allow the hon member to raise her question.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I want to check whether proper arrangements were
made for this one?
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 148 of 177
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES (Ms M C
Dikgale): Thank you very much. There is proper arrangement from the
Table of the Chief Whip. Hon Mokwele, don‘t listen to him, but
listen to me. I have proper arrangement and it is also on paper.
The other thing that I must say is that when we did not know who is
going to represent hon Motara, the Chief Whip was out. Now she is in
the House.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chairperson. At
the launch of the Women in Business Master Class Series which was
initiative in October 2015, as a department we were invited to
participate in helping to initiate black women, especially African
women in particular, to receive requisite skills building,
development through mentoring and coaching that will assist in
increasing their boards representation and participation as well as
providing them with opportunities to network and share best
practices.
The pioneering role of women which is played in leadership positions
today was one of the deliberation in this particular area where we
have to make sure how best should women in business interact with
ordinary women and share their experience and mentor the young
people.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 149 of 177
As we speak today private sector is very much aware that without
bringing on boards all other people, especially when it comes to the
mentoring of young women, there will be no continuity when it comes
to the empowerment of women. Thank you.
Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson to the Minister, in relation to your
response, have you looked at the secondary economy for up scaling
those who are in business - the secondary economy or the informal
economy – those that are in the informal economy to upscale their
business acumen which is derived from the informal sector to be able
to equally participate in the formal sector?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much for the
question from the hon member. I think that is one of the key
elements if we want to change South Africa in ensuring that women
participate fully. We are working together with the Department of
Small Business Development especially when it comes to women in
making sure that they are not just at the level of informal
settlement and small businesses, but they can participate both at
medium and macro businesses.
Some of the issues that we are looking at when we get the reports on
the nine-point plan, we want to see the performance of various
departments when it comes to the empowerment of women. That is going
to be an interesting report because in terms of the presidential
directive they have to tell us how are they empowering women. I
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 150 of 177
think I don‘t want to make any suggestion. We have to wait to get
that report which will then inform us how do we move forward - are
we changing the patterns of the economy or do we retain it. But also
are we getting women into the mainstream economy or they continue to
be at the lower level of our economy. These are some of the issues
when we get the report from our monitoring and evaluation division.
Thank you.
Mr M RAYI: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, during the
Women‘s Day celebration, the chairperson of the African Union
indicated that there is a framework, the AU framework, called the
continental framework which has set aside 30% on procurement for
women. As South Africa is a member of the African Union, AU, what
are we doing in terms of implementing that continental framework?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon member. I
just want to say that before the AU could even start talking about
the quota South Africa had already done that. I think instead of
talking about the AU we need to talk about South Africa. I think
what we have to talk about is the 30% set aside on the affirmative
procurement and how are women benefiting in that space. We talk
about the 30% set aside in the small businesses and how are women
faring when it comes to that. But also when we talk about the broadbased black economic empowerment, BBBEE, how are women faring? These
are the issues we will be assessing when we get the report.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 151 of 177
But also to indicate that the tool of the African Union is not just
about the 30% set aside when it comes to the economy, but it is also
about that as a country we need to reach parity by 2020. As South
Africa we are one of those countries which are doing well when it
comes to government, but we are lagging behind in the private
sector. We have to look at the mechanisms which will allow us to
make sure that more women do participate in the economy. Thank you.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Thank you Minister. As the department has a tool to
measure the growth of women in the informal business sector to
ensure that they move from informal business sector?
[Interjections.]
Khawuyeke ukungxola mama. Uthini mama? Ndimde kaloku mna kwaye
andifani nawe MaDlamini. [Stop making noise, ma‘am. What are saying,
ma‘am? Well, unlike you, Ms Dlamini, I am tall.]
As the department has a tool to measure the growth of women in the
informal business sector to ensure that they move from informal
business to formal sector in all departments, is that tool, if it
has, properly monitored? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much. We are
working closely with the Department of Monitoring and Evaluation so
that we don‘t duplicate their tool. In the department we have our
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 152 of 177
own monitoring and evaluation section which has a tool of
monitoring. That is the tool which we are going to use in monitoring
your economic cluster departments. That is where we will realise if
the programmes of the Small Business department are indeed
empowering women, but not only that, but also is it pushing them up
or keeping them at that level. So I would plead with the House that
allow us to be at that space. We are already asking departments to
submit reports. It is not an easy process, I must say. Some
departments say to us they want partnership because they must go
with us to go and do economic awareness of women because we are a
department of awareness. That is not what we are looking for. We
want to see to what extent are women empowered economically. We want
to see to what extent is the life of women changing. But also
bringing back their dignity because if you are able to fend for
yourself is not just about an empowerment, but is also about selfassertiveness, it‘s also about self-confidence in being able to
carry and take forward your life. Thank you.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Thank you Minister. My simple question is, what is
it that the government is doing in order to empower women
particularly from the rural areas because really you find that the
rural women are suffering a lot? They still expect their husband to
go and work in mines and bring bread on the table. Many of them have
registered the co-operatives and there is nothing that is actually
happening. Thank you, Minister.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 153 of 177
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, hon ―mzala‖
[cousin]. I am happy to have a mzala [Laughter.] Chairperson, I
think it is a big challenge. The question of the empowerment of
rural women in a country as a whole is not just when it comes to
economic empowerment, but it is also about access to education in
changing their lives. There is a lot which we need to do.
For instance, part of the programme of Operation Phakisa in various
areas we are saying that Operation Phakisa must not focus in the
cities, but it has to go out to the rural areas. When you look at
the ocean economy which is in KwaZulu-Natal it can‘t be ocean
economy around Durban or eThekwini whilst we know that the coastal
area is so rural. So the issue of programmes by various departments
including the Department of Environment Affairs must train women and
get women to go to school making sure that whatever opportunities
which prevail in those areas are given to women.
When it comes to the questions you are raising about the cooperatives I would say, what we need to do as government is to make
sure that instead of just creating co-operatives for the sake of cooperatives, we create co-operatives which are tangible with a clear
programme and also to say what is it that must empower women. We
have good co-operatives which are successful. We have seen them in
some of the places. We can copy and emulate some of them. But we
need to be very creative in making sure we respond and talk to those
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 154 of 177
issues of women especially in the rural areas if we want to change
our economy. Thank you.
Female genital mutilation
113. Mr C Hattingh (North West: DA) asked the Minister of Women in
The Presidency:
Whether
she
has
been
informed
of
alleged
female
genital
mutilation that is taking place in the provinces; if so, (a)
which provinces are mostly affected and (b) what steps has her
department taken to address this matter?
CO323E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chair, neither the.
department nor I have been informed of any allegations of female
genital mutilation in any of South Africa‘s provinces. I also want
to say that practises like female genital mutilation are prohibited
and outlawed in South Africa.
Furthermore, let me state that the World Health Organisation, WHO,
has listed all countries in which female genital mutilation is
practised and South Africa is not listed because we do not practise
it.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 155 of 177
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I do have access to the international list
and I will forward the list to the Minister so that she can
reconsider her response. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Do you want to respond, hon
Minister? Okay.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you. He needs to
respond. Yes. I will welcome the list which talks about that but I
must also emphasise that South Africa, as a country, does not
practise that. I would appreciate it if the hon member can give me
the list with examples.
I also want to urge the hon member that genital mutilation is
outlawed. Why do you, as a lawmaker, allow it to happen? Why did you
not report it and make sure that the law enforcement of this country
deals with that? It is outlawed. We have signed various conventions
and international protocols against this practise because we do not
practise it as South Africans and it does not exist.
I would love to know whether he reported it as an hon member? We all
have an obligation, as citizens but also as lawmakers, when we see
anything which goes against the law, to report it. We do not wait to
come here and raise it because we have got an obligation to the
voter in making sure that we protect them. Thank you.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 156 of 177
Department reconfigured/restructured
126. Mr M T Mhlanga (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of Women in
The Presidency:
Whether her department has been reconfigured and restructured
in order to contribute meaningfully to the achievement of the
National Development Plan (details furnished); if not, why not;
if so, what are the relevant details?
CO340E
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, the department
has restructured and done concurrence which, as I have indicated
earlier on, was approved by the Department of Public Service and
Administration. What we have also done, hon Mhlanga ... it is just I
have decided that it might assist to see how we have reconfigured
the department. I want to give it to you so that you can see how we
have done in making sure that, as a new structure which was approved
by the Department of Public Service and Administration together with
Treasury, how we have reconfigured the department moving forward.
Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, I will accept the response from the Minister
but further try to ask a follow-up question. You have some
morosophist here who says that the department does not respond to
the call as per its mandate. [Laughter.] I would really appreciate
if the Minister can further allude to the establishment of the desk
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 157 of 177
or the institutional desk in our legislatures and our municipalities
in this regard. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, patriarchy comes
in many ways and reflects itself in many ways. That is why when you
talk about transformation you also need transformation of the mind.
The RDP of the mind and soul becomes necessary in these particular
areas for us to be able to move forward because any other department
can exist but when it comes to women, it will be seen as a sub or is
less important.
What we need to do as you indicated, hon member, is that our
responsibility is to monitor and make sure that progress is made in
making sure that women are integrated in all sectors of our society
but not only integrated, but women are able to advance themselves
and compete like any other person in our country. I am proud to say
that we see young women, especially at universities, rising better
than boys in making sure that they can perform. So, that is what we
need to see happening in our country.
There is a necessity for this department but I also want to
underline that it cannot be a department which is as big as the
Department of Social Development because our responsibility is
completely different. You need a department with high-level skills
and which is able to whip the department and other departments, and
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 158 of 177
whip the private sector in ensuring that women are able to move
forward. So, the restructuring intends to achieve that. Thank you.
Mr M RAYI: Hon Minister, firstly we need to congratulate women for
fighting and ensuring that there is a fully fledged department that
focuses on them.
Perhaps we need to take a step further by also ensuring that at
provincial and local government levels we do have these departments
and not just a directorate of special programmes where you will have
women as part of the special programmes. We need to have a fully
fledged department at a provincial level with a political champion
in the form of the MEC. [Interjections.] Can I be protected, hon
Chair? But I have made my point, anyway. Thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon member from
KwaZulu-Natal.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, I have forgotten
to make just one point. Currently, in terms of the national gender
machinery, departments are supposed to be having sections, as you
correctly said, of focus points for gender advancement in the
interest of women. But what we have discovered — because we have
done a national analysis — is that it is not taken seriously.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 159 of 177
The first problem is that it is given at a very junior level where
there is no authority. So, it becomes like a process of keep me busy
kind of a situation. We are reviewing that as a department. We are
engaging the Department of Public Service and Administration to make
sure that the level is at least at chief director level, but not
only there. It must not be a stand-alone. We are saying it must be
in the office of the director-general and should form part of the
director-general‘s performance agreement. So, when you assess the
director-general you do so about the process, programmes and
progress she or he has made in terms of the empowerment of women. It
is not easy.
Inyusa umnqantsa kancinci kodwa sinethemba lokuba iza kulunga
nangona ingalulanga nje. Kuyafuneka abantu baqonde ukuba xa ezi
zinto ziphakanyiswa, ziye zibekelwe ecaleni zingahoywa. (Translation
of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[It is a bit difficult but we are hopeful that ultimately it is
going to come right. People should understand that when these issues
are raised, they are sometimes put aside and ignored.]
This is exactly what is happening currently but if we want to make
sure that women are empowered, we mainstream that and let the
director-general take responsibility in ensuring that the directorgeneral sticks to the performance agreement. This will enable us to
see whether he is performing in making sure that women are empowered
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 160 of 177
in that particular sector and not only in government. If it is Dti,
it means that in private sector we also want to see progress being
done by Dti in changing the lives of women. Thank you.
Mr A J NYAMBI: Hon Chair, let me start by commending the Minister
for what she has done given the reality of the triple challenges
that all of us know of our past. My question is in relation to
appointing me as ambassador to always once in a month, come to your
boardroom with some of those in this House that we see that they
still need an RDP of the soul and mind. Will you be available to
always come and do that in terms of your schedule Minister? Thank
you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Nyambi, that
is a new question but it will depend on the hon Minister if ever she
will be available.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chair, I love the
challenge and I would insist on not only yourself but more of you
because we really need men to transform society. I would say, it
must not only be you. If more men can come up as ambassadors for us
in fighting gender-based violence in our country, we will see young
women being able to go school; and also see more women and equality
as enshrined in our Constitution happening. We must know that it is
one of the keys. I love the challenge and welcome it but I want see
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 161 of 177
more men coming forward. I am ready and we can even start now.
[Applause.]
Mnu M KHAWULA: Sihlalo ohloniphekile uma ngabe sekuthiwa into
iyenzeka usungaqala ngoNyambi ... [Uhleko.] ... UNyambi. Uma
ususibheka sonke lapha eNdlini nguyena ongaqala ngaye lowaya.
Ngempela ngempela ungaqalaphi, ungaqala laphaya? [Uhleko.]
UNGQONGQOSHE WABESIFAZANE EHHOVISI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngibonga kakhulu
kulungu elihloniphekile uMnu Khawula kodwa angifuni yena kuphela
nginifuna nonke [Uhleko.] Nonke nize. Ngingabonga kakhulu nawe uma
ungaba owesibili. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr N KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson if this thing is happening, you can
start with hon Nyambi ... [Laughter.] ... hon Nyambi. If you look at
us in this House it is him that you can start with. Really, really
where can you start, can you start there? [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you very much, hon
member, hon Khawula but I don‘t want only him I want all of you.
[Laughter.] You must all come. I can be very grateful if you can be
the second one.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you for
the response hon Minister. Hon Khawula and all other members can see
the ability that you are having in responding to all the questions.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 162 of 177
We are now coming to the end but I would like to say, even to the
Ministers who were here, that they really did this House so well. I
also want to thank the hon members for all the participation that
they have shown me today. I was so touched when you were fighting
for your rights. All of you were standing and I am happy that you
are really ready to work for the people of South Africa and also to
represent them well. Hon Minister, the nation was watching and has
seen you. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
The Council adjourned at 18:27.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
THURSDAY, 8 SEPTEMBER 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1
The Minister of Finance
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(a)
PAGE: 163 of 177
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Regulatory Board for Auditors for
2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 214-2016].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Accounting Standards Board for 2015-16,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 155-2016].
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the Financial Services Board for 2015-16, including the
Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information
for 2015-16 [RP 273-2016].
2.
The Minister of Public Enterprises
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Denel SOC Limited for 2015-16, including the Report
of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for
2015-16 [RP 270-2016].
3.
The Minister of Telecommunications and Postal Services
(a)
Revised Strategic Plan of the National Electronic Media Institute of South Africa
(NEMISA) for 2016-2021.
(b)
Revised Annual Performance Plan of the National Electronic Media Institute of South
Africa (NEMISA) for 2016/2017.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
4.
PAGE: 164 of 177
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 34 – Department of Trade and Industry for 201516, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information of Vote 34 for 2015-16 [RP 305-2016].
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Council of Provinces
1.
Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Singapore for the
avoidance of double taxation and prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to Taxes on
Income, dated 7 September 2016.
The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the
agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
Republic of Singapore for the avoidance of double taxation and prevention of fiscal evasion with
respect to taxes on income, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996, approve the
said agreement.
Report to be considered.
2.
Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the agreement between the Government of
the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the United Arab Emirates for the
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 165 of 177
avoidance of double taxation and prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on
income, dated 7 September 2016.
The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the
Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the
United Arab Emirates for the avoidance of double taxation and prevention of fiscal evasion with
respect to taxes on income, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996, approve the
said agreement.
Report to be considered.
MONDAY, 12 SEPTEMBER 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – April 2015, tabled in terms of section
54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act,
2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(b)
PAGE: 166 of 177
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – May 2015, tabled in terms of section
54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act,
2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(c)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – June 2015, tabled in terms of section
54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act,
2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(d)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – July 2015, tabled in terms of section
54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act,
2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(e)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – August 2015, tabled in terms of section
54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act,
2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(f)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – September 2015, tabled in terms of
section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures
Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(g)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – October 2015, tabled in terms of
section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legis latures
Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(h)
PAGE: 167 of 177
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – February 2016, tabled in terms of
section 54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures
Act, 2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
(i)
Monthly Financial Statements of Parliament – March 2016, tabled in terms of section
54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act,
2009 (Act No 10 of 2009).
2.
The Minister of Energy
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African National Energy Development
Institute (SANEDI) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
3.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Land Bank for 2015-16, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Consolidated Financial Statements of the Land and Agricultural
Development Bank of South Africa (Land Bank) for 2015-16 [RP 191-2016].
(b)
Annual Report of the Bank Supervision Department of the South African Reserve Bank for
2015.
(c)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Reserve Bank for 2015-16, including
the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2015-16.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(d)
PAGE: 168 of 177
Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public Deposits for the year ended 31
March 2016.
4.
The Minister of Transport
(a)
Ministerial Order regarding Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation, tabled in terms of
section 100(4) of the Civil Aviation Act, 2009 (Act No 13 of 2009).
TUESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 2016
Please see pages 1-23 of the ATCs.
WEDNESDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Appointment of chairperson of Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence
(a)
Mr C Nqakula has been appointed as chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on
Intelligence with effect from 14 September 2016 in terms of section 2 of the Intelligence
Services Oversight Act, 1994 (Act No 40 of 1994).
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 169 of 177
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) on the
Represented Political Parties’ Fund for 2015-16, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 2202016].
2.
The Minister of Energy
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Energy Regulator of South Africa
(NERSA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 215-2016].
3.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Office of the Pension Funds Adjudicator for 201516, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 221-2016].
4.
The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(a)
PAGE: 170 of 177
Report on Activities of the South African Law Reform Commission for 2015-16.
THURSDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) for 201516, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 213-2016].
2.
The Minister of Communications
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 3 – Department of Communications for 2015-16,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information of Vote 3 for 2015-16 [RP 268-2016].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Media Development and Diversity Agency
(MDDA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(c)
PAGE: 171 of 177
Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Communications Authority of South
Africa (ICASA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
(d)
Report and Financial Statements of the Film and Publication Board (FPB) for 2015-16,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2015-16.
3.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Report and Preliminary Annual Financial Statements of South African Airways SOC
Limited (SAA) for 2014-15.
4.
The Minister of Higher Education and Training
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of Vote 15 – Department of Higher Education and
Training for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information of Vote 15 for 2015-16 [RP 260-2016].
(b)
Report and Financial Statements of the Agriculture Sector Education and Training
Authority (Agri-Seta) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 159-2016].
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(c)
PAGE: 172 of 177
Report and Financial Statements of the Banking Sector Education and Training Authority
(Bank-Seta) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 160-2016].
(d) Report and Financial Statements of Culture, Arts, Tourism, Hospitality and Sport Sector
Education and Training Authority (CATHS-SETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16
[RP 161-2016].
(e)
Report and Financial Statements of Construction Education and Training Authority
(CETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 162-2016].
(f)
Report and Financial Statements of the Council on Higher Education (CHE) for 2015-16,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2015-16.
(g) Report and Financial Statements of the Chemical Industries Education and Training
Authority (CHIETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 163-2016].
(h) Report and Financial Statements of Education Training and Development Practices Sector
Education and Training Authority (ETDP-SETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16
[RP 164-2016].
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(i)
PAGE: 173 of 177
Report and Financial Statements of the Energy and Water Sector Education and Training
Authority (EW-SETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 165-2016].
(j)
Report and Financial Statements of the Financial and Accounting Services Sector
Education and Training Authority (FASSET) for 2015-16, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16
[RP 166-2016].
(k) Report and Financial Statements of the Food and Beverages Manufacturing Industry Sector
Education and Training Authority (Foodbev-Seta) for 2015-16, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
(l)
Report and Financial Statements of the Fibre Processing and Manufacturing Sector
Education and Training Authority (FP&M-Seta) for 2015-16, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16
[RP 196-2015].
(m) Report and Financial Statements of the Health and Welfare Sector Education and Training
Authority (HW-SETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 169-2016].
(n)
Report and Financial Statements of the Insurance Sector Education and Training Authority
(Inseta) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 179-2016].
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 174 of 177
(o) Report and Financial Statements of the Manufacturing, Engineering and Related Services
Sector Education and Training Authority (MER-Seta) for 2015-16, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16
[RP 171-2016].
(p) Report and Financial Statements of the Media, Information and Communication
Technologies Sector Education and Training Authority (MICT-Seta) for 2015-16,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2015-16 [RP 172-2016].
(q) Report and Financial Statements of the Mining Qualifications Authority (MQA) for 201516, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 173-2016].
(r)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme (NSFAS)
for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2015-16.
(s)
Report and Financial Statements of the Quality Council for Trades and Occupations
(QCTO) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
(t)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Qualifications Authority (SAQA) for
2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2015-16.
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(u)
PAGE: 175 of 177
Report and Financial Statements of the Safety and Security Sector Education and Training
Authority (SAS-SETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
(v)
Report and Financial Statements of the Local Government Sector Education and Training
Authority (LG-SETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 275-2016].
(w) Report and Financial Statements of the Transport Education and Training Authority
(TETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 177-2016].
(x)
Report and Financial Statements of the Public Service Sector Education and Training
Authority (PSETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
(y)
Report and Financial Statements of the Wholesale and Retail Sector Education and
Training Authority (W&R-SETA) for 2015-16, including the Report of the AuditorGeneral on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 1782016].
(z)
Report and Financial Statements of the National Skills Fund (NSF) for 2015-16, including
the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2015-16 [RP 291-2016].
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
PAGE: 176 of 177
(aa) Report and Financial Statements of the Services Sector Education and Training Authority
(SERVICES Seta) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16 [RP 176-2016].
5.
The Minister of Public Enterprises
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Forestry Company SOC (Limited)
(SAFCOL) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2015-16.
6.
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Report and Financial Statements of the Technology and Human Resources for Industry
Programme (THRIP) for 2015-16, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2015-16.
TUESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Energy
20 SEPTEMBER 2016
(a)
PAGE: 177 of 177
Report and Financial Statements of the National Nuclear Regulator (NNR) for 2015-16,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance
Information for 2015-16 [RP 313-2016].
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents