Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 10 May 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
TUESDAY, 10 MAY 2016
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:00.
The House Chairperson: Committees, Oversight, Co-operative Government and Intergovernmental Relations took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Labuschagne?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, after seven years, you should know my name is Van Lingen and not Labuschagne – unless you are squint or you want to curry favour from the hon Labuschagne!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I am very sorry, hon Van Lingen! Hon Van Lingen?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council on behalf of the DA:
That the Council -
(1) notes that the Quarterly Labour Force Survey revealed that 8,9 million people do not have jobs or have given up looking for jobs in South Africa;
(2) further notes that unemployment has increased to a record high of 36,3%, or 8,9 million people unemployed, in the first quarter of 2016;
(3) also notes that 355 000 people lost their jobs in the first
quarter of this year; and
(4) debates the government‘s ability to implement the structural reforms necessary to boost economic growth and create jobs in South Africa.
Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council -
(1) notes that, 20 years back, on 8 May 1996, South Africa formally adopted the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Act, Act 108 of 1996;
(2) also notes that this Constitution marked the break of our country with its past of racial, gender, class and all other forms of discrimination, and introduced a democratic form of government based on the will of the people;
(3) further notes the adoption of this Constitution also gave birth to South Africa‘s second House of Parliament, the National Council of Provinces, that replaced the former Senate;
(4) therefore joins millions of South Africans, united in diversity, in celebrating the collective heritage of the new struggle to build a new national, democratic society, as envisaged in this Constitution; and
(5) reaffirms our commitment towards protecting and promoting this Constitution as a democratic platform to heal the injustices of the past.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council on behalf of the DA:
That the Council -
(1) notes that Gauteng Community Safety MEC Sizakele NkosiMalobane‘s self-imposed deadline regarding the investigation into Mr Bafana Mahlabane‘s fitness to hold office, on 30 January 2016, has passed, yet no feedback has been provided; and
(2) calls for an urgent investigation into the appointment of Bafana Mahlabe as Chief of Police in the Ekurhuleni Metro Police Department, as he does not meet the requirements of section 64(c) of the South African Police Service Act.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council on behalf of the DA:
That the Council debates the lack of sporting facilities and proper coaching opportunities available to the different communities of this country; the role that sport can play to unite the people of this country; the opportunities that the enhancement of sport can play to develop talented individuals to make a decent living; and the benefits for all South Africans, as a whole.
Ms E PRINS: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council -
(1) notes with the utmost concern, and debates persistent gang violence in many townships across South Africa;
(2) further notes that, despite several interventions, gang violence in many townships across South Africa continues to rise and spread, leaving behind a trail of dead bodies, including those of innocent victims, such as children and community and family members, who are caught in the line of fire by heartless gangs who show no regard for human life and the rule of law;
(3) recognises that in the Western Cape alone, it was estimated, in 2013, that there were 100 000 gang members; 12% of the 2 580 murders in the province were gang-related, an increase of 86% from 2012; and
(4) notes that these cases continue to spiral.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council on behalf of the DA:
That the Council debates, in relation to the ongoing violence in Vuwani, Limpopo, the disputed municipal demarcations process, the continued dishonesty with the local community, the failure of service delivery in these municipalities, the plan to help rebuild schools and the condemnable failure by the SAPS and Crime Intelligence to respond swiftly to protect important infrastructure in the town.
Ms M C DIKGALE: Hon Chairperson, my notice of motion would be a repetition of what the hon Smit has just moved, but I just want to condemn the violence. Thank you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council on behalf of the DA:
That the Council debates the transferring of title deeds to eligible beneficiaries and the economic development linked to it, in light of the fact that no title deeds were transferred to eligible beneficiaries in the Buffalo City, Nelson Mandela Bay and Johannesburg Metros in the 2013-14 financial year.
RACIALLY BIGOTED REMARKS MADE BY GROCERY SHOP MANAGER
(Draft Resolution)
Ms Z V NCITHA: Chair, on behalf of the ANC I hereby move without
notice:
That the Council -
10 MAY 2016
(1)
PAGE: 7 of 311
notes with utter dismay and contempt the racially bigoted
remarks make by the attorney Coetzee ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It‘s a motion without notice
that you are ...
Ms Z V NCITHA: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, we haven‘t come to that.
We‘re coming to that now. Thank you. Does any member wish to move a
motion without notice? I‘ll start with you, hon Ncitha.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Thank you, Chair, again. My apologies.
RACIALLY BIGOTED REMARKS MADE BY GROCERY SHOP MANAGER
(Draft Resolution)
Ms Z V NCITHA: Chair, on behalf of the ANC I hereby move without
notice:
That the Council -
(1)
notes with utter dismay and contempt the racially bigoted
remarks make by the attorney Coetzee who is a grocery manager
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 8 of 311
at Checkers at Selcourt Towers in Springs, east of
Johannesburg, who likened the black store cashiers and
packers to baboons;
(2)
further notes that when confronted about this remark the same
manager showed no remorse but reiterated that he saw no
difference between the workers and baboons;
(3)
takes this opportunity to condemn in the strongest possible
terms the disparaging and bigoted remarks of attorney Coetzee
and warns other bigoted shallow-minded people like him that
this kind of racist and repulsive utterance has no place in
our country and society;
(4)
undertakes to do everything in our power to put an end to it
and shuns all those who continue to insult our people; and
(5)
calls on Checkers to take corrective action against the
manager and on the shop steward of Checkers to ensure that
this incidence is reported to the relevant authorities.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONDOLENCES ON PASSING OF MR CHRIS HATTINGH’S MOTHER
(Draft Resolution)
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 9 of 311
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby
wish to move without notice:
That the Council -
(1)
notes the recent passing of the hon Chris Hattingh‘s mother;
(2)
conveys its deepest sympathy for his family‘s loss; and
(3)
gives its heartfelt condolences and that the Council‘s
thoughts and prayers are with him and his family.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CALL FOR URGENT INTERVENTION TO ADDRESS ANC FACTION FIGHT WHICH
DAMAGED THE MAROTOLA PRIMARY SCHOOL IN STINKWATER
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, on behalf of the DA I hereby wish to
move a motion without notice:
That the Council -
(1)
calls on the Minister of Basic Education, the SA Police
Service and the ANC to intervene urgently in the Marotola
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 10 of 311
Primary School in Stinkwater, which was damaged during a
fight between two ANC factions on Sunday, 8 May 2016;
(2)
notes that two gunshots were fired, endangering children, and
classroom windows were broken; and
(3)
calls on the community to open police cases against the
respective ANC members who were involved in this incident
which has resulted in our children sitting in cold classrooms
today.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
CONDOLENCES EXTENDED TO FLOOD VICTIMS IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Draft Resolution)
Mr E M MLAMBO: Hon Chair, on behalf of the ANC I hereby move without
notice:
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 11 of 311
That the Council -
(1)
notes with alarm that four people were killed, 400 people
were displaced and more than 150 homes were damaged in
flooding in KwaZulu-Natal last weekend;
(2)
notes that although this rainfall came at a time when the
province is experiencing drought, the storm did not improve
the drought conditions as the water levels in the water
reserve dams are still low;
(3)
therefore extends its condolences and sympathy to the
families and victims; and
(4)
also extends word of appreciation to all respective
governmental structures and other stakeholders that assisted
the victims during this trying time.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONDOLENCES ON PASSING OF HON SENZO MKHIZE OF THE KWAZULU-NATAL
PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE
(Draft Resolution)
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 12 of 311
Mr J M MTHETHWA: Chair, on behalf of the ANC I hereby move without
notice:
That the Council -
(1)
notes with profound sadness the death of the Chief Whip of
the ANC in the KwaZulu-Natal provincial legislature, the hon
Senzo Mkhize, who died after a long illness last Friday;
(2)
further notes that the hon Senzo Mkhize was an outstanding
revolutionary and a selfless and dedicated cadre of the
national revolution who was respected and admired by all our
people regardless of their political affiliations and views;
(3)
acknowledges that the passing of the hon Senzo Mkhize has
left a huge void in the ANC, its alliance partners and the
provincial legislature; and
(4)
takes this opportunity to convey its heartfelt condolences to
the hon Mkhize‘s family, the people of KwaZulu-Natal and to
the ANC and its alliance partners.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
WELCOMING OF TOURISM INDABA IN DURBAN
(Draft Resolution)
10 MAY 2016
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Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, I hereby move, on behalf of the ANC, the
following motion without notice:
That the Council -
(1)
notes and welcomes the hosting of the Tourism Indaba by the
national Department of Tourism and other stakeholders at the
Durban International Convention Centre that began on 6 May
2016;
(2)
also notes that the indaba hosts different delegates from
different sectors within South Africa and outside our borders
and that it enables different stakeholders to come together
to share knowledge and create partnerships;
(3)
further notes that tourism constitutes part of Africa‘s
overall economy, that it is of vital importance that
stakeholders in the tourism industry across the continent
harness the rich potential of this sector by working
together;
(4)
notes, as tourism is a key contributor to South Africa‘s
economy and to job creation, the indaba will yield positive
resolutions that will benefit our country in this time of
economic need; and
10 MAY 2016
(5)
PAGE: 14 of 311
therefore wishes them well in their endeavours to strengthen
our economic sustainability and promotion of economic cooperation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
THE MOGALAKWENA LOCAL MUNICIPALITY IN NEED OF URGENT INTERVENTION
(Draft Resolution)
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, on behalf of the DA, I hereby wish
to move a motion without notice:
That the Council (1)
notes that the Mogalakwena Local Municipality is at a total
shutdown once again owing to strike action by employees who
demand benchmarking that is financially unaffordable to the
municipality;
10 MAY 2016
(2)
PAGE: 15 of 311
also notes that both of the Minister of Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, Mr Van Rooyen, and the
MEC of the Limpopo provincial department of Co-operative
Governance, Human Settlements and Traditional Affairs have
attempted to mediate a four-month temporary solution at a
cost of R16 million;
(3)
notes that this did not resolve the issue and that this
municipality is in serious distress and needs serious
intervention; and
(4)
delegates the matter to the Select Committee on Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs in order to do oversight
and to recommend a solution as a matter of urgency.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
CONDOLENCES TO HON ZWANE ON PASSING OF HER MOTHER
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 16 of 311
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A S SINGH: Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That this Council -
(1)
notes with profound sadness the death of the mother of our
hon Lungelwa Zwane who was laid to rest last Saturday – may
her soul in peace; and
(2)
takes this opportunity to convey our heartfelt condolences to
the hon Zwane and her family for the loss of her loved one –
may they have strength to bear this loss.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MINISTER OF SPORT SPENDS MORE ON AWARDS CEREMONIES THAN ON BUDGET OF
OLYMPIC GAMES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr W F FABER: Hon House Chair, on behalf of the DA I hereby wish to
move a motion without notice:
That the House -
10 MAY 2016
(1)
PAGE: 17 of 311
notes that the Minister of Sport and Recreation Mr Fikile
Mbalula has spent R110 million on awards ceremonies in the
past three years and only R25 million on the three-year
Olympic budget;
(2)
maintains that the Minister needs to prioritise the sport
budget on athletes and not parties;
(3)
notes that this is of concern given that South Africa will be
competing in the upcoming Olympic Games in Brazil; and
(4)
condemns the reckless spending of the Minister, and wishes
our athletes well in the upcoming games.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
APPRECIATION FOR JUDICIARY’S UPHOLDING OF CONSTITUTION IN NKANDLA
JUDGMENT
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 18 of 311
(Draft Resolution)
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby
wish to move a motion without notice:
That the Council forwards a letter of appreciation to the Chief
Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng, conveying our sincere appreciation for
the way the judiciary upholds the Constitution of this country and
the rule of law in general without fear, favour or prejudice in
the Nkandla Constitutional Court judgment.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
CONFLATION BETWEEN STATE AND PARTY IN PUBLIC PROTECTOR REPORTS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, on behalf of the DA I hereby
wish to move a motion without notice:
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 19 of 311
That the Council -
(1)
notes that in two Public Protector reports, the Public
Protector found conflation between party and state to the
benefit of the ANC;
(2)
further notes that in the first report she found that the
Free State provincial government used state resources to
advertise the ANC ahead of the 2011 elections;
(3)
also notes that in the second report she found that Julius
Malema, the then leader of the ANC Youth League, to have
distributed state food parcels at a party event; and
(4)
welcomes these reports and condemns the use of state funds
for political-party initiatives.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 20 of 311
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
GAUTENG SCHOOLS OF THE FUTURE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Chair, on behalf of the might ANC, I hereby move
without notice:
That the Council -
(1)
notes and appreciates that the Gauteng education department
is putting some of its abundant schools to use, spending on
millions of rand on turning them into hi-tech specialised
institutions;
(2)
also notes that the plan will see 20 deserted schools
throughout the province converted into schools that will
provide training in the type of technical skills needed in
the areas in which they are situated;
(3)
further notes with overwhelming excitement that the first ICT
and engineering school to open will be inaugurated by the
ever-working MEC Panyaza Lesufi next week in Emdeni, Soweto;
10 MAY 2016
(4)
PAGE: 21 of 311
also notes that the schools boast amenities that include
brand new classrooms, which all have which all have
interactive and smart boards and their own attached offices
that will be the class teacher‘s workspace, as well as a
modern soccer field, a tennis court, a basketball, netball
and volleyball combi-court, workshops that will be fitted
with the engines of a helicopter, a Caterpillar payloader and
even a Boeing 737 aircraft, and a library, among other
things; and
(5)
therefore applauds the ever-working ANC-led government for
upholding education as a key priority as enshrined in the ANC
manifesto – I so move with overwhelming support.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
SOUTH AFRICA’S SOVEREIGN CREDIT RATING CONFIRMED AT BAA2
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 22 of 311
(Draft Resolution)
Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC I move a
motion without notice:
That the Council -
(1)
notes that the rating agency Moody‘s has affirmed the
country‘s sovereign credit rating as Baa2, which is two
notches above junk status;
(2)
also notes that the country is likely approaching a turning
point after several years of falling growth;
(3)
further notes the plans, as stated in the state of the nation
address by His Excellency President Zuma and the hon Minister
of Finance in the national Budget for fiscal consolidation,
and that these have been discussed with the private sector
and the unions and were translated into action;
(4)
also notes that South Africa can be placed on a different
trajectory in the near term;
(5)
commends the ANC government on its relentless efforts to
rally all sectors behind this common goal;
10 MAY 2016
(6)
PAGE: 23 of 311
further notes the putting of South Africa‘s case at
international fora, such as the World Trade Organisation in
Geneva, the International Monetary Fund in Washington, the
World Economic Forum in Davos and at the meetings the
Minister of Finance had with investors in the United Kingdom,
Washington and Boston;
(7)
notes that all of us have to convert our thoughts and plans
into concrete action that has a direct impact on inclusive
growth; and
(8)
reaffirms government‘s position in terms of controlling debt
and therefore expenditure, building investor confidence,
undertaking reforms and working towards socioeconomic
transformation.
[Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 24 of 311
Mr C F B SMIT: Do you recognise, hon House Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are not yet recognised.
Why are you standing, hon Smit?
Mr C F B SMIT: On a point of clarity, hon Chair. I don‘t if I heard
correctly, but the hon De Beer said ―on behalf of the NP of the
ANC‖. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Smit! Hon Dlamini, you
are the last one.
REVISED REGULATIONS TO SOCIAL ASSISTANCE ACT TO BE PROMULGATED
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, on behalf of the mighty organisation the
ANC, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council (1)
notes and welcomes the announcement that was made by the hon
Minister of Social Development Bathabile Dlamini that the
Department of Social Development would promulgate revised
regulations to the Social Assistance Act to put an end to
unauthorised and unlawful deductions that are made to grant
beneficiaries‘ accounts;
10 MAY 2016
(2)
PAGE: 25 of 311
further notes that these regulations require that grant
beneficiaries go to a SA Social Security Agency office, or
Sassa office, to give written permission to Sassa for a
deduction to be made and that no payments to brokers will be
allowed; and
(3)
takes this opportunity to welcome these regulations as a
decisive intervention to put an end to the exploitation of
grant beneficiaries by unscrupulous companies, especially
those that at times sell short-term insurance.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Is there any objection to the
motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): In light of the objection,
the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will
now become a notice of a motion.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Vote No 17 - Social Development South Africa:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Let
me invite the hon Minister of Social Development, hon Dlamini.
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 26 of 311
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chair, on a point of order: Before you proceed, I
thought that you with your calibre would at least congratulate
Sundowns for winning the league. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mme N P MOKGOSI: Modulasetilo, ke ne ke kopa go botsa mma potso ya
gore a ga a itshiela sengwenyana se se bogale, se se ka dirang gore
a seke a kgona go tswelela le tiro ya gompieno mo teng ga Ntlo eno?
[Tsenoganong.] Re tle re e lebelele gore a mme ga a itshiela sepe se
se bogale se se ka dirang gore tsamaiso ya Ntlo eno, e seke ya
tsamaya sentle ka tlhamalalo. Ke a leboga. [Tsenoganong.]
(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms N P MOKGOSI: Chairperson, Can I direct a question to a member? I
want to know if she had maybe taken a strong drink that is making it
difficult for her to effectively perform the duties in this House.
[Interjections.] We must look into that matter. I thank you.
[Interjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Continue hon Minister.
Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chair, on a point of order: The hon member must
withdraw the remarks she just made. She is making very serious
insinuations.
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 27 of 311
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokgosi let me address what you have said. Let me deal with hon
Mokgosi first. Hon Mokgosi you know the rules of the NCOP. Can you
please withdraw what you have said about the Minister?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I asked a question, I did not make any remarks. I
asked a question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokgosi can you withdraw what you have attributed to the hon
Minister.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Okay Chairperson, maybe you did not understand the
language that I spoke, maybe the translators did not translate
exactly what I asked. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Members, order! Don‘t assist me. I know what I am doing. Hon
Mokgosi, I am asking you for the last time. Can you withdraw what
you have attributed to the hon Minister of Social development?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Okay, I withdraw the true question that I have asked
the Minister.
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 28 of 311
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Can
you take your seat? Hon Mokwele, no I can‘t have two people at the
same time. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: You also do. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBER: O nole, bona fela jaaka a... [Go se utlwagale.] [She is
drunk, look at ... [Inaudible.]]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Must I speak? Am I protected?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokwele you are recognised.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo wa Ntlo, ka tlotlo le boikokobetso,
potso e neng motl Mokgosi a neng a botsa [Tsenoganong.] [House
Chair, with all respect, the question asked by hon Mokgosi...
[Injerjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
hon Mokwele let me assist you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ga ese ke fetse go bua.[I am not done speaking.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, before you can even finish, I understand what you are saying.
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 29 of 311
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, you don‘t understand. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokwele, if you are challenging my ruling, there is a procedure.
[Interjections.] I have made a ruling about what was said by hon
Mokgosi.
Ms T J MOKWELE: But I am not challenging your ruling.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
Mtileni you are not recognised. I am still dealing with hon Mokwele.
Are you saying she must sit down? [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Let me assist you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mtileni, you are not recognised, can you take your seat? Hon
members, imagine if all the people can do what you are doing. There
will be chaos in the House. Hon Mokwele; make your point.
[Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Motlotlegi, ke ne ke re potso e mme a e boditseng,
ka Setswana o dirisitse mafoko a phefofatso. Ga gona gope fa lefoko
le a le dirisitseng le e leng gore le nyatsa Ntlo e. [I am
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 30 of 311
clarifying that the question that the member asked has nothing to do
with disrespecting this House. She used metaphor.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokwele, can you take your seat so that I can address you. Can you
kindly take your seat? That is why I said, I have made a ruling
about what was said by hon Mokgosi, and she has withdrawn and you
are taking us back. [Interjections.] You are not even recognised
Mtileni. [Interjections.] Can you take your seat? Can all of you
please put your hands down? Let me be very clear and do it probably
for the last time. About the issue of hon Mokgosi, I have made a
ruling as a presiding officer. No one should raise their hand in
relation to what was said, because I even requested her to withdraw.
And that was done. So I am not even going to entertain any person
who will take us to that one. [Applause.]
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, on a point of order: Just also on
the rules of this House, if we can apply it that when other members
are standing, the hon Minister also sits down while adhering that
process so that you also implement that rule.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 17 – Social Development:
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 31 of 311
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson; Deputy Minister
of Social Development, Ms Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu; Chairperson
and members of the Select Committee on Social Development; hon
members of the National Council of Provinces; MECs of Social
Development here present; Distinguished guests and representatives of
Faith Based Organisations, Community Based Organisations and the
civil society at large; comrades and friends.
It g i v e s me great pleasure to present to this House Budget Vote 17
through which we remain firmly focused on fulfilling our
Constitutional mandate and the progressive building of a shared
future envisioned in the National Development Plan (Vision 2030).
In framing this Budget Vote, we are guided by the enduring
principles of our Constitution that was born from the sweat, tears
and blood of the forbearers of our liberation struggle.
On the 4th of May when I presented this Budget Vote in the National
Assembly, I reaffirmed our commitment to respond to the economic
and many other vulnerabilities that confront our people on a
daily basis. Contrary to the opposition propaganda, ours is a
party founded on constitutional values and principles, and ours is
a constitutional government. We will always defend and uphold our
most cherished Constitution, derived from a struggle against
values and the repressive p o l i c i e s of the past.
the
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 32 of 311
A painful past for so many of our people - a past we are told
to forgo ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Minister, sorry hon Minister. Hon member, hon Engelbrecht, why are
you standing?
MS B ENGELBRECHT: Mr Chair, thank you. On a point of order. The
ConCourt has just made a ruling that the President and the Ministers
that supported him did not uphold, defend or support the
Constitution. So will the Minister please withdraw her statements!
She‘s misleading the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Engelbrecht, it‘s a point for debate. Can you present the statement?
Hon Engelbrecht, maybe let me allow you to present the statement
that must be withdrawn.
Hon ... can you take your seat? Can you take your seat? Ja.
Hon Engelbrecht, the hon Minister has made a statement and after
making the statement, hon members are going to have an opportunity
to engage and debate the budget. Let‘s allow the Minister to
continue. Continue hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: A painful past for so many ...
[Interjection.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Sorry, hon Minister. Hon Essack?
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson. But just based on your comment - and
you can check that on Hansard - are you, with due respect to you,
and as Chairperson of this House, are you suggesting that the
Constitutional Judge‘s ruling is a matter for debate? Is that what
you are suggesting Sir? Because that is what you said.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): At
no stage I said that.
Mr F ESSACK: That is what you said. You can go to Hansard Sir. I
just wanted to highlight it. Thank you for the opportunity.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Essack, I‘m not going to be debating with you. But I said the hon
Minister has made a statement, and I said it‘s presenting a budget
and hon members are going to debate the budget. I‘m not talking
about judges. Hon Mokwele?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ka tlotlo le boikokobetso. Fa sebui se
eme mo phodiamong se bua, se bo se re latlha ... [Chairperson, with
all due respect, when the speaker is on the podium and misleads
us...]
10 MAY 2016
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... as the House. She‘s not only misleading this House, she‘s also
misleading South Africa. Can you please rule on that?
The hon Minister is misleading South Africa that the ANC government
is upholding the Constitution, that is a lie, according to the
judge, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi):
Take your seat, order. Let me read for you, Rule 46 on the National
Council of Provinces. No member may use offensive or unbecoming
language in the Council.
Hon members, let‘s refrain from compromising the decorum of the
House. Hon Mokwele?
Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ka tlotlo le boikokobetso. [With due respect.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokwele, I ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Are you listening to me or are you listening to your
advocate?
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): I
recognised you, now I‘m dealing with hon Julius. Let me take ...
[Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: So I must sit down?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Yes, I‘m taking hon Julius. Hon Julius?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, for clarity. You are reading us a rule
that is not pertaining to this issue. The issue is, can you make a
statement that is misleading the House? That‘s the issue. And if you
are now saying that any statement, in your ruling, remember your
rulings become rules in this House, and we will have problems the
whole day debating. You are now saying to us that, any statement is
a statement of debate because you didn‘t qualify what you said. I
can now say, the ANC, all of you are thieves in my debate. Will it
be fair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): If
you want. Let me take it further ... [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: It‘s a point of debate. You understand? Okay ...
[Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): let
me take ... hon Julius, let me take it further. It says, no member
may deliberately make a statement in the Council which the member
knows is false.
But, but, no, no, I‘m saying ... no, I was not making a ruling, I
was reading ... [Interjections.]
Hon, take your seat hon Mokwele. Hon members, take your seat. Hon
members, let me repeat what I said when ... can you take your seat?
Can you take your seat? Mtileni take your seat. Mtileni can you take
your seat? Mtileni, Mtileni, Mtileni, I‘m giving you the final
warning, take your seat.
Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
put your hand down hon Mohapi.
Hon members, if I have made a ruling, I‘m not going to subject my
ruling to a debate to the House. Let me repeat it, if I‘m making a
ruling, at no stage I‘ll subject my ruling to the debate to the
House. If a member is aggrieved about a ruling, there‘s a procedure
to be followed. Hon Minister, continue.
Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): No,
I never recognised you.
Let me recognise you, hon Mokwele.
Mme T J MOKWELE: Ke a leboga. Modulasetilo, ka tlotlo le
boikokobetso, a o itse gore ke a go tlotla ka dinako tse tsotlhe
...Ke a go tlotla ...
o fetsa go buisa molao, wa Ntlo eno, o o buang gore ga gona leloko
lepe le le tlang go emang fa pele ga Ntlo a bo a bua ntlha kgotsa a
tlhagisa tshwaelo e a itseng gore ga se nnete, a bua maaka, o fetsa
go bua jalo, wena ka molomo wa gago.
Re botsa le go ikuela mo go bona gore ... (Translation of Setswana
paragraphs follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: With all due respect, I respect you Chairperson;
you know I do. You have just read an act for this House that stated
that no member must stand in the House to say something that is not
true. You have just said that.
We are humbly asking that they ...]
... sit down, sit down, sit down, I‘m still speaking [Interjection.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr.A J Nyambi):
Mokwele, Mokwele, Mokwele, Mokwele, it is not your responsibility to
do that ... [Interjection.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Tell her to ... [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Take your seat hon ... [Inaudible.]
Conclude, hon Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: F***, okay.
Ka jalo, motlotlegi Modulasetilo, re dirile boikuelo ba gore ...
[Chairperson, we are humbly requesting that...]
Minister misled the country, not only the country even this House.
You confirmed ...
... wena, akere lona le kgona go bala dibuka tseo ... [...you are
able to read those books...]
... you‘ve got enough time to read those things of yours to favour
you ...
10 MAY 2016
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... o ntshitse ntlha ya Molao 47 fa ke se dire phoso, gore ga go na
motho yo o tlo go emang fa a bua ... jaanong re kopa ka tsweetswee
gore katlholo ya gago e seke ya tsaya letlhakore. O se ke wa tsaya
letlhakore la ga Tona ... [...you read Rule 47 if I am not mistaken,
do not be biased in your ruling please.]
... because she‘s the Minister of ANC. Your ruling must be based on
the very same rules that you have highlighted on. So ...
... re kopa ka tsweetswee gore Tona a busetse morago mafoko a gagwe
... [Can the Minister withdraw?]
... it‘s true that ANC and its leaders are not upholding the
Constitution. It‘s true, you know that, please ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokwele, hon Mokwele, order members. Put your hands down. Hon
Mokwele, I have made a ruling. I even went further to clarify that
I‘m not going to subject my ruling to a discussion of the NCOP.
Ms T J MOKWELE: But your ruling is bias, your ruling is bias
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Can
you continue, hon Minister. Can you continue, hon Minister.
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 40 of 311
Ms T J MOKWELE: Your ruling must not be bias because at the end
[Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi):
Take your seat, hon Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible]
The HOUSE CHAIRPESON: COMMITTEES AND OVERSIGHT (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon
Mokwele, take your seat. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: A painful past for so many of
our people, a past we are told to forget and to move on, but a past
that so many on the opposition benches reminisce nostalgically
about.
In presenting this Budget Vote, I would like to reiterate a
statement made by the founding father of our democracy, the late
President Nelson Mandela, during the opening of the first democratic
Parliament in 1994. He stated that,
I
quote:
― Freedom cannot
be achieved unless women have been emancipated from all forms of
oppression and they must all stand for the right of Nonceba if they
are committed to the Constitution‖.
10 MAY 2016
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He further stated that, I q u o t e : "our endeavours must be about
the liberation of women, the emancipation of the man and the
liberty of the child".
This clarion call remains relevant to the struggles of women in this
country and this is what we aim to achieve through this Budget,
particularly during the tough economic times.
In this financial year the Department of Social Development received
a budget of R148 billion. Of this amount, R140 billion goes towards
protecting the most vulnerable households, older persons, people
with disabilities and children. Our primary goal remains the
eradication of poverty. In addition, the budget allocation for the
Provincial Departments of Social Development will grow from over
R17 billion in 2016-17 to just above R20 billion in 2018/19.
Following the recent approval of the Early Child Development,
ECD, Policy by Cabinet, an allocation of R810 million is
allocated as conditional grant to the nine provincial departments
over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister?
Please take your seat. Hon Mtileni! Is that a point of order?
Mr V E MTILENI: May I know, hon Chair, if the Minister is ready to
take a question?
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 42 of 311
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister,
do you wish to take a question?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: No.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: She is not
prepared to take a question. Please take your seat.
Mr V E MTILENI: Not?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Please take
your seat!
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: With this allocation, we remain
true to our commitment and the resolutions of the 52nd ANC
Conference in Mangaung that declared ECD a public good. Posterity
will judge us all harshly if we do not invest in the future of our
children, because ECD is the cornerstone of any Human Resource
Development Strategy of a country.
We also remain focused in addressing the social ills through the
expansion of social services in key areas such as social crime
prevention, combating alcohol and substance abuse and continuous
strengthening of victim empowerment services. Gender Based Violence
remains one of the most prevalent human rights violations that
affect women and children disproportionately. It cuts across the
10 MAY 2016
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lines of race, culture, ethnicity, religion, income, or class. It
takes place behind high halls in the posh suburbs of Sandton or the
panoramic sea views of Clifton.
Rape is not a black culture as the likes of the learned North
Gauteng High Court Judge, Maria Mabel Jansen, who by virtue of her
profession and position is supposed to uphold the rule of law, would
like us to believe.
Addressing this scourge remains our top priority. As the latest
crime surveys shows, the drivers of violence are structural and
ideological. Structural factors include poverty and inequality,
while patriarchy underpins violence against women and girls because
of their gender. This kind of violence seeks to perpetuate gender
inequalities, including harmful traditional practices targeting
women and girls such as ukuthwala and virginity testing.
Also, we cannot delink violence from the blatant racism, stigma,
sexism, religious intolerance and anti- Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,
Transgender, LGBTI, sentiments held by some political leaders and
the general society. This is irrespective of whether these
discriminatory attitudes emerge as sermons in conservative church
settings or on social media platforms.
Key amongst these is addressing poverty and inequality to give
effect to outcome 13 which seeks to build an inclusive and
10 MAY 2016
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responsive social protection system as envisaged in the National
Development Plan, NDP. Structural interventions must include women‘s
economic empowerment as a prerequisite for sustainable development
and on-going engagement and mobilisation of key sectors such as NonGovernmental Organisations, NGOs, Community-Based Organisations CBOs
and Faith Based Organisations, FBOs. We will also need to engage in
horizontal advocacy to change the consciousness of the people in our
society.
We will also be implementing elements of the Adolescent Sexual and
Reproductive Health and Rights Strategy such as Comprehensive
Sexuality Education as part of our prevention and empowerment
programme.
In this financial year, we will also expand the reach and coverage
of the Command Centre on gender based violence to also include the
Child Line and SASSA so that they too can benefit from the
counselling services that address all forms of trauma and at 24
hours a day.
In the last financial year, we established ten White Door Safe
Spaces in Limpopo, Mpumalanga, KwaZulu-Natal, Eastern Cape, North
West and in the Northern Cape. We will expand on these services by
establishing additional five White Doors of Hope in KwaZulu-Natal,
Mpumalanga, Free State and Limpopo in this financial year.
10 MAY 2016
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The provision of social security remains the most effective antipoverty strategy of government. This programme has been exceedingly
successful in reducing poverty and inequality and has been hailed
internationally. As we have stated before, SASSA will take charge of
the overall administration and payment of social grants in the next
financial year.
I would like to assure this house that we are dealing decisively
with the issue of unauthorised and unlawful deductions that bedevil
our current payment system. I am therefore, pleased to inform this
house that the regulations to the Social Assistance Act have been
amended and published on Friday, 6 May 2016. The revised regulations
will enable us to put to an end to the recurrence of unauthorised,
unlawful and immoral deductions and also tighten control of the
payment environment. We have also instituted recourse mechanisms for
deductions and I am pleased that many of these cases have been
successfully solved.
We cannot allow unscrupulous business people to exploit gaps in the
system to profiteer off the backs of the poor. Such predatory
business practices undermine our efforts to eradicate poverty. I
therefore urge all Honourable Members to join us in the hands off
our grants campaign and to use every platform to help us spread the
message and educate our beneficiaries.
10 MAY 2016
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Over the past 10 years SASSA has improved the quality of lives of
many of our people. The biggest and most successful initiative was
the transition from a fragmented social security system inherited in
1994 into a single and effective national social assistance
programme. Under the leadership of the former Minister of Social
Development, Zola Skweyiya, the Social Assistance Act was amended,
paving the way for a social assistance system that is deracialised,
facilitated access for all children and fostered age equalisation in
respect of Old Age Pension. Each passing year, we continue to live
up to our slogan: paying the right social grant, to the right
person, at the right time and place, in that order.
With regard to all the achievements I have spoken of, I have
absolutely no hesitation in saying that the African National
Congress, stands at the centre of these advances. These achievements
did not come by chance. Our actions will continue to be informed by
the pledge we made to the people, by the goal that our movement has
pursued from its birth the objective of securing a better life for
all.
The implementation of the Household Food and Nutrition Security
Strategy is at the apex of our priorities. The approach we follow in
the implementation of this strategy is a developmental one in that
the Community Nutrition Development Centres are run by cooperatives
and Non-Profit Organisations, NPOs. We purchase food from local
cooperatives and encourage them to produce more and of a higher
10 MAY 2016
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quality so that they can graduate to supply supermarkets in the
tertiary economy.
Together with NPOs, we have created a network of 166 Community
Nutrition and Development Centres in targeted poor communities
affected by high levels of food insecurity and malnutrition. In
return, these centres have created over 600 jobs. We will increase
these centres to at least 200 in this financial year. If you want to
know them come and join us. Not with regards to membership. Go to
our programmes. You will see what I am talking about. We are in the
midst of a drought and an economic downturn.
This has resulted in a
higher food prices which means that poor people will have reduced
access to nutritious food.
The Department of Social Development is duty bound to intervene in
such instances. We cannot in good conscience stop our Social Relief
of Distress programme because there may be an election taking place
in the same region where people are experiencing undue hardship. We
are looking at an intervention and recovery programme for
Malamulele; a particularly marginalised community. We are also going
to host a conference in the second half of this year to develop a
comprehensive implementation strategy to deal with challenges of
food security and malnutrition. We should not politicise the hunger
of our people!
10 MAY 2016
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The constant link that is made by certain sectors of our society to
the distribution of nutritious food through the SRD programme and
the issue of buying votes is an insult to the poor.
Ms T J MOKWELE: That‘s what you are doing.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: But also, the very same people
that are complaining about the ANC in distributing SRD...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Don‘t drown
the speaker on the podium
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: ... sabotaged the programme of
the ruling party and come with their paraphernalia and we have
photographs to that effect, so they are not innocent. But also, the
DA lost a case in 2014 to this effect and therefore, please people
must speak what they know. And they must understand what they are
talking about. The committee has completed its work and has made
valuable proposals on the White Paper.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Minister?
Please take your seat. Hon Engelbrecht?
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Chair, the Minister is misleading this House. It
has been found that the top nine of the ten best municipalities in
10 MAY 2016
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South Africa come from the Western Cape run by the DA, so once again
she is misleading this House.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No. Order!
Order! Hon Engelbrecht? Order! The war cannot happen in the House.
Hon Engelbrecht, may I address you and the members? Hon members,
when you make a statement like a member is misleading. It is a very
serious issue. I want to advice that when you do that, you bring in
a substantive motion. Don‘t eco me, because when you do that you are
actually bringing a very serious accusation, so it must not be a
willy nilly thing. When members are debating and the issue is
debatable, members are on the Speaker‘s list. All their parties are
on the list. If it is something you want to dispute, please avail
yourself to the debate, but if you are very clear that this is a
misleading of the House and therefore the public, bring a
substantive motion. And I want to proceed. Hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: The report will be tabled at
FOSAD, on 11 May 2016, before Cabinet and we will then bring it
through to Cabinet.
Lastly, I would like to skip all other issues and take this
opportunity and thank Ms Virginia Peterson for the sterling work she
has done in the agency.
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Liphelile
ixesha lakho Mphathiswa, ungagqibezela ke kodwa. [Your time has
expired hon Minister, but you can conclude though.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Her term is coming to an end on
15 May and we wish her all the best in her future endeavours. Thank
you.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, special
delegates, hon members, I greet you. Chairperson, allow me to open
my debate by saying that as South Africans we should be proud of
ourselves for being responsible citizens. If wishes were horses to
some people, this country would be upside down; but because we have
responsible citizens in this country, we still have a sound, solid,
and vibrant country that is able to provide services to its people.
Hon Chair, they even go to an extend of saying that they want to
shutdown the government; forgetting that this government is
providing services to the people whom they claim to be representing.
They forget that if government could be shutdown one day, millions
of lives of South Africans people would be shutdown too. The very
same people they claim to be representing.
Besides all this, we are proud to say that South Africa is sound,
solid, vibrant and on course to serve its people. The expression of
what we are saying could be best defined in this Department of
Social Development. The core mandate of the Department of Social
10 MAY 2016
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Development is the provision of support and upliftment of the most
vulnerable groups in South African societies.
As a caring government, the South African government puts the
wellbeing of its people first, not individual interest. This is
encapsulated in the vision and mission of this department, and also
aligned to the broader objectives of government‘s national
development plan vision 2030, as well as the policies of the
governing party.
According to the 2011 census South Africa had a total population of
51,7 million people, almost one in three or 29,6% of the population
is aged between 4 to 14 years and a further 28,9% aged between 15
and 34 years making South Africa a youthful populated country.
The point that I want to bring forward is that this presents
opportunities with investments in education and healthcare directed
to ensure growth and development. However, given the reality of
poverty, unemployment and inequalities and the impact of HIV and
Aids that South Africa faces, some of these opportunities are lost
and or not maximised.
The Select Committee on Social Services appreciate and welcome the
budget of R148 billion this financial year. Of this amount, 94% as
the Minister indicated earlier, which is R140 billion is dedicated
to poor households to support the elderly, people with disabilities
10 MAY 2016
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and children in the form of social assistance. Over the Medium-term
the department has projected to paying grants about 18,1 million
beneficiaries.
As indicated by the Minister earlier that the split of this is as
follows: old age grants will receive R58,9 billion; child support
grant will receive R52 billion; disability grant will receive R20,4
billion; foster care grant will receive R5,5 billion; social relief
of distress will receive R500 million; grant-in-aid will receive
R500 million; war veterans grant will receive R3,6 million and care
dependency grant will receive R2,6 billion.
The aforementioned grants aim to boost the income of poor
households, which bear the brunt of unemployment, poverty and
inequality that persists in South African society. While research
suggests that in spite of the increases in social grants, they are
generally below inflation.
Ngako bantfu nabesutsi ubeva batsi ... [That is why when people have
eaten and have had their fill you hear them saying...]
... that they want to close down government, they literally mean
that they want to close the entire population I have just mentioned
above.
The Department of Social Development and the South African Social
Security Agency, Sassa, are involved in rendering social security
10 MAY 2016
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services designed to address poverty and food insecurity in the
country. Of particular importance is the social relief of distress
which is a practical example of these services. Social relief of
distress is a form of social assistance that is aimed at assisting
needy individuals and households by providing access to food by
means of food voucher, food parcel or cash in kind.
You don‘t know how painful it is that our people wee removed from
their properties, land of their birth and they were made slaves.
That is why today when we talk about this social relief we don‘t
have the same understanding.
Thus it can be said to be mechanism that is used to address food
insecurity to individuals and households in need. Many of the poor
households in South Africa rely on the state social grants as a
means of income for their daily sustenance, and these households are
mostly African and women, and child-headed homes. However, there are
also people who still experience food shortages in their households
even thought the government provides social relief of distress to
needy households.
The short-term nature of this assistance compromises its
effectiveness as a sustainable strategy for reducing food
insecurity. This can be attributed to resources3 limitations on the
part of both the Department of Social Development. It is against
this backdrop that the Select Committee on Social Services is
pleased to notice that the budget for social relief of distress
10 MAY 2016
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programme increases from R450,2 million to R500 million for this
financial year, constituting a real increase of 4,19%. While social
relief of distress provides short-term relief for poor households,
government recognises that long-term solutions are needed.
Hon Chair, we are concerned as the select committee to realise that
the alcohol and drug abuse is on the rise. According to the World
Health Organisation 15% of South Africa‘s population have a drug
problem. This high level of drug abuse cost South Africa over R20
billion a year. These statistics have earned the country the dubious
reputation of being one of the drug capitals of the world.
The Select Committee on Social Services is pleased to note that
Cabinet approved additional allocation of R50 million each year over
the MTEF period for the construction of substance abuse and
treatment centres in Northern Cape, Eastern Cape, North West and
Free State.
Hon Minister, the issue of drugs is affecting all provinces as much
as we consider the limitations in terms of budget we would like to
see all provinces having these centres so that all provinces are
accommodated. We want to recommend, Minister that you consider
strengthening the following programmes: gender-based violence, if we
could have more campaigns on that; early childhood development;
nation-building, and I know that this is new mandate to the
department; but we are saying that there must be something seen that
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is done by the department in collaboration with other departments
that are involved. Also, strengthen your programme on human
trafficking.
The Select Committee on Social Services welcomes and support the
budget allocated to the Department of Social Development for this
financial year, and will continue its oversight on the national
Department of Social Development and the provincial departments to
ensure that money allocated to this department is spent well for the
benefit of the people of South Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Faber, I
don‘t have ‗bokkies‘ in the House.
Mr W F FABER: Sorry, hon Chair! That is just a metaphor way of
speaking.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I know ...
... maar daar is geen bokkies hier! [...but there are no ‗bokkies‘
here!]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, Mme Modise, Ministers and
fellow members in the gallery, thank you. Hon Dlamini, I just want
to bring to your attention that you are the last people as the ANC
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to claim to be responsible when you have so much disrespect for the
Office of the Public Protector‘s.
The South African Constitution is crystal clear about the rights
afforded to all South Africans, especially to those more vulnerable.
Section 27 of the Constitution states that ―everyone has the right
to have access to health care, food, water and social security.‖ The
pertinent question is whether the Minister of Social Services is
upholding this right in a responsible and accountable manner.
The answer to that is, no!
When the Minister of Social Development visited the New Brighton
community in Nelson Mandela Bay, she burst into tears after
residents insulted her. Minister Dlamini, I would like to say to you
today that you have the right to cry and express your emotions in
sad moments, but we ask you to please cry for legitimate, right
reasons.
Exercise your right to cry because, according to the National
Development Plan, South Africa will need a total of 60 000 welfare
service practitioners by 2030 to meet South Africa‘s social welfare
needs. In October 2014, the Minister advised that there were only
17 441 operation social workers in the country. This shortage means
that the existing social workers are completely overburdened. The
promise remains unfulfilled!
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Cry for the 2 500 social workers who were granted Department of
Social Department bursaries and promised jobs – and still the
promise has not been fulfilled - on completion of their studies but
they are now without work because the department did not budget for
them despite their contractual agreements. Imagine the impact these
social workers would have had on the vulnerable groups that we are
faced with in all nine provinces.
This shortage of social workers is a major problem. In 2012, it was
shown that there were numerous applications of qualified social
workers who did not even receive the acknowledgement of their
applications. Yet, this Minister promises that there is justice done
by social development. Imagine how much damage this has caused and
how much crime has been committed by unemployment in this regard!
With the food price inflation, the Minister must cry legitimately
for social grant beneficiaries who cannot afford to buy enough food
to meet their most basic nutritional requirements. The Minister must
also cry legitimately for the fact that her office has received more
than 40 000 queries regarding illegal social grant deductions in the
month of February alone. This supports the evidence that the DA has
gathered.
The DA thus welcomes the publication of the revised Regulations to
the Social Assistance Act announced by Minister Dlamini on Friday,
6 May. And we are saying, how much damage has been caused by the
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scourge? The revision seeks to address the problem of illegal
deductions to social grants that the DA has fought on an ongoing
basis. This is a victory for the most vulnerable in our society who
have suffered from this scourge for far too long.
The DA will monitor closely whether these regulations stipulate that
the beneficiaries must, in person, provide written permission to
SASSA for all deductions; that only insurers registered under the
Long-term Insurance Act of 1998 may offer funeral policies; and that
payments for funeral policy premiums will now only be made directly
to the insurer responsible for providing benefits under the policy,
with no payments to brokers being allowed.
Finally, Minister Dlamini, you must cry for the fact that the Public
Protector found that the Free State provincial government and Julius
Malema, the then leader of the ANC Youth League, had both used state
resources for political ends and gains. These state resources came
from your department, Minister! You need to address them!
[Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: On a point of order, Chairperson: I think hon
Mpambo-Sibhukwana is on a high level of gossip. She said it earlier
on and we cautioned her.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Is that a
point of order?
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Mr V E MTILENI: Julius Malema is the commander in chief of the EFF,
not of the ANC.
The CHAIPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you very
much!
Mr V E MTILENI: She seems to have mistaken the two.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mtileni
you have offered us your opinion. It is not a point of order.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, I just want to request the Chairperson
to make a ruling. The findings of the Public Protector, particularly
around Free State, did not make a determination that there was an
abuse of state funds. There is no finding like that.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mohapi,
let me have sight before I can make a ruling on what the hon member
is quoting, then allow me to come and make a ruling because both of
you are members of this Council.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: In 2013, just to remind you Minister, you
distributed food parcels in Tlokwe shortly before the by-elections
because you knew that there was a high likelihood the ANC would lose
to the DA. The Public Protector said, ―When a minister is in an
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event as a Minister, not as a party representative, he or she can
not endorse a particular political party‖. Minister, stop
undermining the Office of the Public Protector‘s! That is a warning!
Further, the Public Protector found that in late 2009, when the ANC
Youth League had rallies near Cape Town, Malema handed over food
parcels paid for by Sassa. Oh shame, he had to fulfil the ANC
mandate! At this event, the Public Protector said Sassa abetted the
ANC Youth League to achieve its ―party-political objective, thus
creating a conflict of interest and favouritism‖.
Yes Minister, slowly but surely you are revealing to South Africans
the ‗little skeletons‘ you have in your closet.
The DA – it‘s a promise - will be watching you very closely during
these coming elections not to misuse the state funds at the expense
of taxpayer. Instead of wasting your time bribing people for votes,
you should be investing in making a difference in South African
communities and being accountable to Parliament! Minister, to date,
you have not answered one question for the year! The question that
was posed to you in 2015 has not been answered. You have no respect
for this house, Minister!
The DA-led national government would merge the Departments of Health
and Social Development – and this is the model we should be
following - because they have strong links to one another in terms
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of improving the standard of living of South Africans and providing
those from disadvantaged communities with services. The
administrative costs we‘ll save from disbanding the Health Ministry
and merging it with the Social Development Ministry would amount to
R28 854 000. Have your maths and work on it.
DA-run local governments will facilitate and promote initiatives to
address social issues facing our youth and children by: firstly,
partnering with provincial and national government, community,
faith, and nongovernmental organisations to facilitate and support
programmes that promote responsible choices and reduce substance
abuse – and in this case we‘ll urge the national Minister to deploy
efficient police and not inefficient police to the Western Cape;
secondly, creatively using public amenities, including sports and
recreation amenities and libraries in an effort to provide young
people with constructive alternatives to antisocial behaviour; and
thirdly, maximising the quantity and quality of Early Childhood
Development facilities – which we spoke about - in municipalities so
that more young children receive pre-school education development.
In the DA-run Midvaal Municipality in Gauteng, where the DA
identified a gap in the provision of quality childcare, we have
provided primary schools with workers from the Community Works
Programme to boost Early Childhood Development initiatives. This
intervention will provide children from disadvantaged backgrounds
with quality after-school care, allowing parents to spend much more
time in their work. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
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MS N MAYATHULA-KHOZA(Gauteng: MEC for Social Development): Good
afternoon hon Chair, hon Members of the NCOP, hon Minister and
Deputy Minister of Social Development, distinguished guests, hon
MECs who are here with us, ladies and gentlemen. We are here on
behalf of the ANC-led Gauteng government to support the national
Social Development budget as presented by the hon Minister
In her address, the Minister painted a picture that inspired hope.
She crystallised how younger generations of women of all races,
united in diversity, were working together to enhance freedom and
democracy that their mothers and grand mothers fought so hard for.
As Gauteng Provincial Government, GPG, we would like to welcome the
2017-18 Department of Social Development‘s budget of R148 billion.
We are especially pleased to note that R140 billion of this amount
goes directly to poor households to support the elderly, people with
disabilities and our children. It also goes a long way in the
creation of employment in our country. Although Statistics SA
reports today that unemployment has increased by 2,2 % in the first
quarter, we are encouraged to learn that employment in the community
and social services increased by 51 000 during this quarter.
This brings hope that through this Social development budget, more
jobs will be created especially for our youth and women through
various programs that the Minister has outlined. This budget is
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therefore a cannon fodder that stands between our people‘s better
life and a life of despair through a caring ANC-led government‘s
efforts of radical socio economic development and implementation of
intervention programmes for and with the poor.
The Gauteng Provincial Government, is taking decisive steps to make
Gauteng an integrated city region characterised by social cohesion
and economic inclusion. We have a ten-pillar programme of radical
transformation, modernisation and reindustrialisation, TMR. Whilst
our department is located in Pillar 3 of the TMR, which concerns
itself with accelerated social transformation, we also contribute to
other pillars. Through the TMR, we are improving access to quality
early childhood development, ECD, combating substance abuse and
gender-based violence, expanding the war on poverty programme, and
upscaling the welfare to work programme.
As part this programme, we are creating economic opportunities
through programmes such as the Social Relief of Distress grant and
Community Nutrition Development Centres, CNDCs. One member was
asking, ―Where are these centres; where is this programme.‖ We want
to say to you: We have these programmes in Gauteng.
To date, since late 2014, we have rollout eight of these Community
Nutrition Development Centres which are benefiting already over
40 000 beneficiaries, and we are planning six more of these CNDCs
for the coming year. Beneficiaries comprised of our homeless poor in
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the province appreciate this programme initiated by the ANC-led
government ...
... ngoba iqeda indlala. [... because it eradicates hunger.]
To contribute to radical economic transformation, we have increased
procurement of goods from local co-operatives such as school
uniforms, nutritious food, blankets and dignity packs. This has
increased our broad-based black economic empowerment through the
SMME participation, as well as companies owned by young people,
women and people with disabilities.
Since June 2014, over 3 200 jobs – and these are decent jobs - and
over 367 cooperatives in Gauteng have benefitted from the school
uniform programme. About 25 agricultural cooperatives have
benefitted from preferential procurement supplying vegetables used
for hunger relief amongst the poor people whilst providing nutrition
in our province. Come and visit us, we will show you where these
programmes are happening.
Our Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, coupled with 57 of our
Isibindi programmes, initiated by this Minister, is also
contributing well towards employment opportunities and poverty
relief. Since 2009, we have been able to absorb all our 690 trainee
social workers and deployed them throughout the province using our
ward-based model to improve access to Social Welfare by the
residents of Gauteng. These young social workers have expressed
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their appreciation to the ANC-led government for bursaries and for
the employment they have also received.
We are implementing the Welfare to Work programme, W2W, which aims
to either transit youth who are on welfare into permanent lucrative
employment or provide further education opportunities. To date, just
since 2014, over 4 000 young women who are on the social grant
system have benefitted from the programme. They are now in descent
sustainable jobs.
Between the 2015-16 and 2018-19 financial years into the future, our
Gauteng Social Development department shall have completed the
construction of 15 early childhood development centres – the
prototypes - as part of the social infrastructure programme that was
initiated by our hon Minister which will include the areas of
Hammanskraal, Winterveld, Mabopane, Everton, Sharpeville, Boipatong,
and Khutsong. [Interjections.] Yes, come and visit us; we will show
you!
As part of ECD program, we provide educational toys and computers,
occupational health and safety equipment, toy libraries, play groups
and standardised meals. Hygiene training is being done at our ECDs
and sanitisers are provided. There are many more kinds of activities
that we see happening. Over and above 100 000 children in funded
early childhood development centres, 58 000 children have to date
undergone assessment in terms of the body mass index project, BMI
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project. This will help our children to really grow well and to also
be prepared for their future.
Over the past 5 years, to contribute to youth development, a total
of over 24 000 young people participated in skills development
programmes; 659 young people participated in the internship
programme; 583 participated in learnership programmes and 360
unemployed young people benefited from external bursary programmes,
apart from those that I spoke about earlier. We also have social
cooperatives that are being empowered radically and economically by
the Gauteng Provincial Government.
We now buy school uniform and all sorts of goods from about 859 of
them for our school learners. The recent set of 355 uniforms were
provided to deserving learners of Curtis Nkondo School of
Specialisation, the best in South Africa, which was officially
opened by my colleague, MEC Lesufi, yesterday. I was there to see
all what my hon member was saying earlier on – the big engine;
something that has never happened in any of the schools in our
country. [Applause.] Our girl children continue to benefit from the
school uniforms and dignity packs as well as many other programmes.
In the interest of time, I will move towards conclusion. The Gauteng
Provincial Government definitely supports this national Social
Development budget because it brings hope to the people of South
Africa, especially the vulnerable people in society. This budget
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will make it possible for us to continue our efforts to bring hope
to those of our people who find themselves on the streets and use
drugs - not because they like to be there, but - because of certain
societal problems.
Of the 200 homeless youth we found sleeping on the cold streets of
Johannesburg just a few days ago – in fact, last Friday - 83 of
these young ones volunteered to be taken to our rehabilitation
centres after which they will receive aftercare, be reintegrated
with families and will also most importantly be linked to skills
development programs in preparation for employment so that they
don‘t go back to the cold streets.
Our social workers are engaging with families of remaining young
people, to help them through our courts so that they can also go
through rehabilitation, aftercare and eventually gain jobs. The SA
Police Service is hard at work arresting drug lords.
Let me thank you, hon Chair, for this moment. Let me also thank our
Minister, the Deputy Minister and the Cabinet collective for your
wisdom in crafting the social development programmes and resource
allocation that makes it possible for us to move our country,
including our city region of Gauteng, forward. We continue to grow
inclusive economy, build a better life for our people, together with
them. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
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Ms W G THUSI (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chairperson, hon Minister
Bathabile Dlamini, Deputy Minister Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu, my
colleagues the MECs, the Department of Social Development family,
hon delegates, distinguished guests and representatives of faithbased organisations and community-based organisations, comrades and
friends, hon Minister: we want to thank you for delivering such a
comprehensive budget speech. The province of KwaZulu-Natal supports
your Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Twenty years and two days ago South Africa witnessed one of the most
extraordinary moments of its history when the Constitution was
adopted in May 1996. This world-respected document has, in the past
20 years, shaped how the Department of Social Development crafts its
policies and programmes aimed at transforming the lives of millions
of South Africans.
Based on constitutional obligations, the mandate of the department
is to provide developmental social welfare services and communitydevelopment interventions to vulnerable groups. Great strides have
been made in changing lives, thanks to the mandate we derived from
the Constitution.
In 1996, only 3 million people had access to social grants. Today,
more than 60 million people receive social grants. These
achievements would not have been made were it not because of the
ruling party - the ANC – which, at its conferences, consistently
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adopted policies that made it easier for us as the department to
carry out our mandate.
Today, the ANC-led government provides a range of social grants
which include the child support grant, the disability grant, the
care dependency grant, the foster care grant, the war veterans‘
grant, the old age grant and the grant in aid care.
I would like to state that the journey we have travelled since the
Constitution gave us the mandate, but it has not been a walk in the
park. Despite having to deal with enormous apartheid social
conditions in our society, which left millions of our people in a
state of abyss, we have had to deal with people who are totally
against our interventions.
We are aware that there are those among us in this House who are
quick to say that we are building a society that is dependent on
social grants. [Interjections.] We want to say, without fear of
contradiction, that the provision of social grants remains one of
the most effective strategic interventions of our government in
addressing the plight of the poor in the short term. It also serves
as a firm foundation for broader social protection in order to allow
our people to seek other means to sustain themselves and their
families. Our ultimate objective is to eradicate poverty, and the
social assistance programme contributes significantly to this
effort. [Interjections.]
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In our province, everybody listens to what the speaker at the podium
is saying and they go out and all work together to make sure that
they change the lives of the people in the province.
Speaking during the adoption of our Constitution, our icon,
President Nelson, said, and I quote: ―The new Constitution obliges
us to strive to improve the quality of life of the people ...
redress the centuries of unspeakable deprivations, by striving to
eliminate poverty, illiteracy, homelessness and disease.‖
Budget Vote 17, presented by Minister Dlamini, shows that we strive
to improve quality of life, as eloquently stated by President Nelson
Mandela. Minister Dlamini‘s budget is an expression of our promise
to deepen and improve the quality of life of all those who are
impoverished, vulnerable and socially excluded. We are delighted
that of the R148 billion allocated to the department for this
financial year, R140 billion goes directly to poor households to
support the elderly, people with disabilities and children.
Hon members would remember that a few years ago our province
experienced a wave of attacks directed at older persons, targeting
particularly those who lived alone or with family members who
worked. The area hardest hit by this was KwaSwayimane in the
Midlands. Our department then conceived an idea to build day-care
centres for older persons, and I am proud to report that in July
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last year we handed over the first such centre to the community of
KwaSwayimane. It has been a year since and the feedback we are
getting from local leadership and the community itself is
incredible. We have also adopted a ward-based approach in which
social workers and community caregivers, who are placed in all
wards, render social work services to older persons.
Our department has been rendering services to people with
disabilities, but over the past two years we have expanded this
group to include previously marginalised groups, such as people with
albinism, autism and dyslexia. In November 2014 the United Nations
took a resolution declaring 13 June World Albinism Day in order to
raise awareness about this condition that affects people all over
the world.
Our department in KwaZulu-Natal did not miss a beat: We celebrated
our first World Albinism Day in Mandeni last year. Since then we
have strengthened our relations with organisations representing
people with albinism, and we are also going out into our communities
to educate people about this condition and dispel the many
derogatory myths being spread by opportunists seeking to make a
quick buck.
I believe our province is the first to start a database of people
with albinism in order not just to ensure that we know where they
are, but also to ensure that they benefit from a partnership we,
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together with the Albinism Society, have established with Nivea for
the company to provide sunscreen to people with albinism free of
charge. We are constantly engaging the disability sector in order to
stay in touch with developments in the sector and the needs of the
people they represent.
In the fight against HIV and Aids, we are working with nonprofit
organisations, or NPOs, to enhance child care forums in our rural
districts, such as Umkhanyakude where we have capacitated five NPOs
on organisational development. We have also trained 1 304 community
caregivers in the Integrated Community Caregivers Foundation Course
and they are due to complete this course this year. In our povertyalleviation efforts we have partnered with the German Development
Bank, which donated R30 million for the construction of six
community care centres due for completion this year. We also do have
more than 35 Community Nutrition Development Centres in the
province. We invite the members who have been asking questions to
visit these centres. [Applause.]
On the social relief of distress, we have provided relief to more
than 1 000 households affected by all kinds of disasters that were
undeclared and other social hardships.
Urban poverty is a reality that we need to face. Among these 10 000
households, we count the Mkhize from Umlazi. This is the story of a
man who was gainfully employed, but due to no fault of his own was
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retrenched. His wife left him because he could no longer provide for
her and the children. Shortly afterwards he suffered a stroke that
left him in a wheelchair. His mother was forced to leave her own
home to come to look after him. With her pension this woman now had
two households to run and it was just not enough, so they ended up
living at the mercy of neighbours. Her neighbours bought the case to
our attention and, indeed, we intervened.
These are cases we deal with on a daily basis away from the glare of
cameras, and therefore you hardly read about them in the media. I am
mentioning this because some poor hon members think the social
relief of distress is a vote-buying scam, and it is not. It is a
measure implemented by our government to save lives and it does.
On child care and protection services, we conducted awareness
campaigns on social ills in all districts, focusing on child abuse,
neglect and exploitation, because we believe it is important for our
children. Most recently, we held a massive drug-awareness campaign
in KwaMashu together with the Congress of SA Students, Cosas. We are
facing a serious problem of drug abuse, especially amongst young
children in our communities, and I would like to call on hon members
to preach this message in the various communities they visit. We
will not win the war against drugs unless we work together as
government, NPOs and, most importantly, the police and the
community. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Time expired.]
[Applause.]
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Ms H J MASHAMBA: Hon Chairperson, Minister Bathabile Dlamini, Deputy
Minister of Social Development, Ms Hendrietta Bogopane-Zulu,
Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Social Development, hon
Members of Parliament and all protocol observed, as we celebrate
Workers‘ Month, we acknowledge the great strides that have been made
in the 22 years of freedom to protect and promote the rights of
workers in South Africa. We salute those who fought tirelessly for
the rights of workers since the birth of our democracy.
It is with this in mind that we further welcome the Minister‘s
undertaking to address the issue of the employment of social service
professionals, as per the aspirations of the NDP. We acknowledge and
accept that challenges exist and that it has the potential to affect
service delivery. The situation is further complicated by the fact
that training is provided for these professionals but that their
absorption into the system is not always possible.
This situation is not unique to the Limpopo province, but the
province is badly affected by it. We are, however, confident that
the matter will be resolved very soon. Hon Minister, earlier on I
said to you that your speech brings hope to some of us because we
thought all was lost. Now we acknowledge the challenges we are
facing, regarding recruitment and employment of social workers. We
say in your own words that indeed if we can galvanise resources to
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ensure that the sector has the required capacity per personnel and
programmes we shall have done a lot for the provinces.
The youth remains our priority as the ANC-led government and it is
evident from the Minister‘s budget speech that meticulous planning
and energy will be spent on uplifting the youth from the early
childhood phase, to those seeking employment after school. It is
through these programmes that we will be able to support the youth
in their endeavours to not only find employment, but create
opportunities to be self-sufficient and to plough back into their
communities. An urgent sense of belonging and pride in community and
culture needs to be instilled in our children from a very young age
in order for them to become responsible and patriotic citizens.
Our people need not become completely reliant on government in terms
of grants and handouts but it is imperative that South African
communities learn to become self-sustained even under the most
trying of financial circumstances at home and globally. We therefore
need to heighten our efforts in terms of the proverbial ‗teaching
people how to fish instead of handing out fish‘.
We are confident that the support of co-operatives will go a long
way to achieve this. We once again call on all government structures
to ensure that they support these co-operatives to the fullest when
it comes to procurement of goods, where possible.
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We further applaud the advances made by the department in terms of
gender-based violence. With these innovations that the Minister
spoke of, we can ensure that the most vulnerable citizens are
attended to immediately in their hour of need. Crimes against women
and children continue unabated and the healing process starts with
proper counselling and assistance, especially for successful
prosecution of the perpetrators. We still need to encourage women
and children and society at large to speak out and report violence
against vulnerable citizens in communities.
We are still observing the trend of illegal, immoral and
unauthorised deductions on old age grants. It seems that some form of
education is needed for citizens applying for grants in order to
empower them with information and teach them to jealously guard
these funds that are supposed to assist them. Unfortunately, there
will always be people with ill intentions who try to exploit
vulnerable citizens. It is therefore important that they should be
given the tools with which to protect themselves.
Hon Chairperson, allow me in closure to indicate that there are many
issues that have been mentioned. I won‘t repeat them for the sake of
repeating, but we say thank you to the Minister. Once more, I say
that your speech brought hope to some of us. We are confident that
this budget will go a long way in ensuring a social safety net for
our people; advance community development; create opportunities for
the youth and heal a nation. The fact that the bulk of Budget Vote
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No 17 is directed at the poor is a testimony to government‘s
continued commitment to its people.
You know what? I thought that my daughters that side were going to
make noise when I speak. [Interjections.] I thought I was going to
get an opportunity of reminding them that they are the mothers and
grandmothers of tomorrow. Even Mtileni was thinking that I was going
to talk to him. He is too old now; I won‘t talk to him. There is a
difference between being a child and behaving childishly. So, today
...
... le ntshwabišitše. [... you behaved differently.]
But I just needed to indicate that. Yes, I know we should conduct
our business in a lively manner but it should be moderately because
of people sitting there; I don‘t know what they are saying. I am not
talking on behalf of ANC or talking to EFF and all that, but I am
talking to fellow South Africans. What picture are we giving? Can
our people really want or aspire to become politicians if they see
us doing what we are doing.
Ke le swaretše; ga se ke le sware ka pelo. [I have forgiven you; I
don‘t have grudges against you.]
But I am just reminding you that we can interject; we can do this
and that, but in a dignified way. Thank you.
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Ms N P MOKGOSI: Ke a leboga, motlotlegi Modulasetilo. Ke tseye
tšhono e ke dumedise Maaforikaborwa diporofense ka bophara.[Thank
you, hon Chairperson. Let me take this opportunity to greet South
Africans at large in all the nine provinces.]
Singumbutho we-Economic Freedom Fighters silukhaba ngawo omane olu
Hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali leSebe lezoPhuhliso loLuntu. [As the Economic
Freedom Fighters we totally reject the Budget Vote of the Department
of Social Development.]
The EFF rejects Budget Vote 17 on Social Development. We reject this
Budget Vote because, firstly, we don‘t trust the smolanyana skeleton
Minister Bathabile Dlamini. The Minister has a very nasty tendency
of using government funds meant for social development for ANC
political purposes, particularly during election years. She uses
food parcels meant for the poorest of poor as campaign material. We
know she will further entrench these nasty tendencies of hers
because this is the election year and the ANC stands to loose a lot
of municipalities to the EFF.
Re go tlhomile matlho mme. [We are looking at you.]
She cannot separate her role as the president of the ANC Women‘s
League ... [Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
please take your seat.
Mr M RAYI: Hon Chair, I am rising on a point of order: Hon Mokgosi
is casting aspersion on the Minister and I would like her to
withdraw or bring a substantive motion on the issue that she is
raising; because there is no proof on the issues that that she is
raising. I would therefore propose that she must either withdraw or
then bring substantive evidence on issue that she is raising.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
you referred to the Minister of Social Development ... If I remember
well you said we don‘t trust this smolanyana skeleton Minister,
thereby reflecting on the Minister and her person. The Point of
order from the hon Rayi is that this casts aspersions and that you
should withdraw.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Hon Chair, if I may address you. In fact I quoted
her words; I just forgot to indicate that it is an open and closed
quote. [Interjections.] My bet, I forget to open the quote and close
the quote. I was in fact quoting her very own words, hon Chair.
Mr M RAYI: Chair, my point of order is the fact that in her speech
she says that the Minister is giving away the money of the
department – I will use my words – for bribing. The real issue is
not about the smolanyana ... [Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: ... of
smolanyana.
Mr M RAYI: ... but it about saying that the Minister is using the
money of the department unfairly.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thanks for
clearing that up. Hon Mokgosi, that is what the point of order is
all about; that you are saying the Minister is using the money of
the department to bribe or words to that effect.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Its true, hon Chairperson, I have just spoken the
truth and everybody knows, including Mohapi.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
are you saying that it is true?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Yes, hon Chairperson, the naked truth.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Is there
evidence?
10 MAY 2016
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Ms N P MOKGOSI: Hon Chair?
HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Say, yes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I
am not an ancestor yet. Order! Order!!
HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Yes!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order!! I am
not an ancestor please don‘t echo me. Ngisaphila. [I am still
alive.] Hon Mokgosi?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I didn‘t know that I will be requested to provide
evidence as we speak, but if I can be given a chance to compile a
report, I can do it and make a submission.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
please withdraw your words where you say the Minister did bribe,
until such time you bring evidence.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I am temporarily withdrawing the truth which is that
the Minister is bribing.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Are you
withdrawing the words which you uttered, saying, the Minister is
bribing?
10 MAY 2016
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Ms N P MOKGOSI: Yes, Chairperson, temporarily so, until ...
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order. You are
withdrawing words that says, the Minister is using the money to ...
[Interjections.]
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Then, if it‘s not temporarily, I am not withdrawing,
Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are to
withdraw unconditionally. The word temporarily tempers with the
withdrawal. You are withdrawing, and I said until ...
[Interjections.] So I will qualify when you give me ...
[Interjections.] ... then we can bring the matter back to a debate.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Can I request that we cross that bridge when we get
there, Chairperson?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Are you
withdrawing?
Ms T J MOKWELE: No!
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I am not withdrawing the truth, Chairperson.
[Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I am not ...
[Interjections.] ... Hon Mokwele I am not talking to you. I am
talking to a member of this House who is on the podium and to whom a
point of order has been raised. Hon Mokwele, you are not advising in
this House. You are not advising a member who is representing a
province in this House.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Take your
seat, I did not recognise you. Take you seat.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Take you seat!
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Take you seat!
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes, keep
quiet
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Hon Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: We are still
on the matter of you withdrawing. You said you are withdrawing but
temporarily. I am saying, please do not give me a condition because
I have made things easy for you. I said bring substantive evidence
and then we can reopen this matter and have a debate on whether it
was true or not.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: In fact you are making this to be more difficult
than it should be. I can‘t withdraw the truth. I said I request to
be given time to bring along a proof. Now you are forcing me to
withdraw the truth. And you are saying things will continue until I
bring evidence. So, may I be allowed to give evidence, I will
withdraw then. No, we will entertain this matter then. At this point
I refuse to withdraw, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I am giving
you an instruction, as the Presiding Officer of this House, to
withdraw.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: You are not being consistent now, Chairperson.
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I am very
consistent ... [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Take your
seat, hon Mtileni, I am addressing this member and I don‘t want to
be assisted. Take your seat. Hon Mokgosi, withdraw.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: People have said a lot of things here, especially
the ANC members, but they have never been made to withdraw; now you
are saying I must withdraw. Chairperson, you are not being
consistent. I have got trust in you that you should in fact protect
me.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I am
protecting you, but ... [Interjections.]
Ms N P MOKGOSI: So, I am not withdrawing anything.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: ... I also
have the responsible to protect the decorum. [Interjections.]
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I will only withdraw if I am to withdraw
temporarily.
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, you cannot
give me a condition. And if you continue to say, you refuse, hon
member, I must ask you to leave the podium and the House.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: I withdraw.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You withdraw,
thank you. Can we continue, please? Hon Mtileni, take your seat.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: She can‘t separate her role as the president of the
ANC Women‘s League from her role as the government Minister. So, how
can you trust her with a budget of over R140 billion set aside for
this department for the 2016-17 financial year. Secondly this
Minister is not fit to hold office of a portfolio as important as
social development which is meant to look after our most vulnerable
people. Not so long ago she embarrassed herself and the nation when
she was caught drunk by the citizens of Port Elizabeth. How can you
trust someone who cannot control her drinking habits?
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi!
Hon Mokgosi, please take your seat, I have got another point of
order. Hon Rayi?
Mr M RAYI: Hon Chairperson, is a similar point of order. She is
still continuing with a speech that casts aspersion on the Minister.
10 MAY 2016
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Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member,
take your seat please, let me address hon Rayi.
Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Take your
seat. Take your seat.
Mr V E MTILENI: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, no, no.
Hon Mtileni! Actually I was going to make exactly the same point
until you decided that you can speak on my behalf. Yes, it seems
like a trend but this is a new sentence that when you look at and
listen to it, is point which members can challenge and contest in
their debates. So, I am going to allow you, hon Mokgosi, to
continue. I have ruled on this matter, hon Dlamini.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Thirdly, this budget does not, at all, address the
challenges that should be addressed by the Department of Social ...
[Interjections.]
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I am rising on a point of order.
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Which point of
order; the one that I have just ruled on?
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Mokgosi said the Minister was caught drunk in
Port Elizabeth.
HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes!
Ms L C DLAMINI: Can she prove that?
Mr V E MTILENI: It is in the newspapers.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mtileni!
Hon Dlamini, I did not hear that. Hon member, I did not hear that.
Hon member, you make it very difficult for us to rule because if you
make noise I happen to miss some of the parts and therefore I cannot
... [Inaudible.] So, hon Mokgosi, did you say that the Minister was
drunk?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Can I repeat the sentence if my time would be
extended with two minutes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes, repeat
the sentence please.
10 MAY 2016
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Ms N P MOKGOSI: Not so long ago, she embarrassed her self and the
nation when she was caught by citizens of Port Elizabeth. How can
you trust someone who can‘t control herself? [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order! No,no,
no, no! Order! [Interjections.] Order, members!
HONOURABLE MEMBER: That‘s not what you said!
Ms N P MOKGOSI: They want to put words in my mouth.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Members,
order! Order! Hon ... Order!
HONOURABLE MEMEBR: That‘s dishonesty now.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order!! Hon
Mokgosi, just repeat that sentence as you said it originally?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Not so long ago, she embarrassed herself and the
nation when she was caught by the citizens of Port Elizabeth. How
can we trust someone who cannot control herself? [Laughter.]
Mr A J NYAMBI: Chair!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes.
10 MAY 2016
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Mr A J NYAMBI: I want to submit that if you can, go to Hansard
because she is deliberately misleading the House. What she said
initially is not what she is reading now. Where she says, ―She was
caught ...‖ she jumped the part she read initially. And it‘s
deliberate. If you can go to Hansard you will get the exact words
that she uttered.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member.
Hon Mtileni, what is your ...
Mr V E MTILENI: Chair, your co-Chair ... I think this time around
chickens are back home to roost, because he himself could not give
us a chance to say what the Minister had said. He actually drowned
us and so now he is saying ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, no, no,
come back. We are on this particular ruling, don‘t take me back to
that time when I was not in the House.
Mr V E MTILENI: I am saying this because you were not in the House
yet, Ma‘m. You were still outside when he could not rule on that
one.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members,
hon Mokgosi is being accused of not reading exactly what she said. I
want to look at Hansard and thereafter come back to this. Now, hon
10 MAY 2016
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Mokgosi, this is serious because if you have jumped words you will
be on camera having read that into the record. And that will be
serious.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: My speech also will be my supportive evidence.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I
will look at Hansard and come back to the House. Please continue.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Thirdly, this budget does not, at all, address the
challenges that should be addressed by the Department of Social
Development. This department used a lot of money to provide
bursaries for the training of social workers particularly in Eastern
Cape. Those social workers are now sitting at home without jobs, and
this is true. [Interjections.] Hey wena [you], relax!
If this is wasteful expenditure then we don‘t know what wasteful
expenditure is. The funds set aside for early childhood are grossly
insufficient for the challenges facing the early childhood
development centres, ECDCs.
Re bua ka dikretšhe, kretšhe, kretšhe. La palelwa. [I am talking
about creches, creches, creches. You are failing.]
We know for a fact that the country is faced with serious problems
of broken homes whereby young children are not provided with the
necessary developmental tools that children are entitled to. Many
10 MAY 2016
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ECDC centres are not provided with the needed support to provide
comprehensive care for our children. This is more serious in rural
areas where old women who are driven by just love, and provide early
childhood education.
When the EFF takes over - not if and not when – government and
municipality we will ensure that there is a crèche in each and every
ward in this South Africa. The EFF-run municipalities will lead in
ensuring that all orphans and child-headed households are put on
database and taken care of by the municipality. The EFF-run
municipalities will ensure that there are enough social workers to
match the needs of the population of every municipality. The EFF-run
municipalities will compile a database of all university graduates
who are unemployed and device programmes that will ensure that they
get the necessary skills to enable them to participate in the
economy. The EFF-run municipalities, particularly in mining towns,
will ensure that people are not just dependent on social grants but
will work with industry to develop skilling programme for the
unemployed and grant-dependent people.
The ANC is not equipped with understanding of the real problems
facing our people. They come with cosmetic solutions to problems
that require systematic interventions.
We reject this budget for it is inadequate. We reject Bathabile
Dlamini who has defined her role as merely that of defending Jacob
10 MAY 2016
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Zuma instead of leading a process of social responsibility. Hon
Minister! [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
there is a point of order.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, in terms of the rules of the House, an
hon member cannot refer to the Minister as Bathabile Dlamini. She
must refer to her as hon Dlamini and the President, as hon His
Excellency Jacob, Gedleyihlekisa Zuma.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
the Minister is hon Dlamini.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Hon Minister of the ANC, hon Zuma, the President of
the ANC.
Hon Minister, ha o nwa metsi, o a nwa thata, o tla tlhatsa mme, o
itlhokomele. Ke a leboga. [Hon Minister, when you drink water, you
drink a lot of it, hence you will vomit; take care of yourself.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi!
Hon Mokgosi! Is that a threat?
Mme N P MOKGOSI: Ke raya
ha o nwa metsi, o a nwa thatha, ke re o
tla tlhatsa, ke sekapuo e bile ke Setswana se ntse jalo ga se
10 MAY 2016
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tolokiwi. Ga go na gore nka se tsaya ka se potapota, ke tla be ke
bua maaka kgotsa ke bua dithogano. Ha ke bua jaana ke re...
(Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms N P MOKGOSI: I am saying that when you drink water, you drink a
lot of it; I am saying you will vomit, which is a metaphor and
Setswana metaphors are not translatable.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
you are speaking to a Motswana.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Okay.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Please,
withdraw that.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Hee mma, e re ke e boeletse gore o tle o nkutlwe.
[Ma‘am, let me repeat myself so you can hear me properly.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, no, no,
no.
Mme N P MOKGOSI: Heeeee! Ga ke kgone mma tlhe. Nka se busetse mafoko
a puo ya loleme la ga mme ko morago. Hee mme tlhe, ska ntira jalo.
Ha o nwa metsi thata o bo o tlatsa dimpa, dimpa di a thubega kgotsa
o ka tlhatsa. Ke raya Tona gore a itlhokomele mo go nweng metsi
10 MAY 2016
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thata, gore dimpa di ka phatlhoga. Ga se thogano epe mma go bua
nnete, le wena o ka mpakela. (Translation of Setswana paragraph
follows.)
[Ms N P MOKGOSI: Nooo! I am unable to ma‘am. I cannot withdraw words
of my mother tongue. No ma‘am, please do not do that to me. When you
drink a lot of water and your stomach gets full from water, your
stomach will burst or you will vomit. I am saying to the Minister
that she must take care of herself with regard to drinking a lot of
water; her stomach will burst. It is not in any way offensive as
what I am saying is actually the truth; you can also be my witness.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokgosi,
hon Mokgosi.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Mma. [Ma‘am.]
The CHAIPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: What did you
say? Just the last sentence.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Ha o nwa metsi thata ... [When you drink a lot of
water ...]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, no, no.
O rileng... [What did you say...]
10 MAY 2016
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...after Ma‘am?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Hee, ke ne ke rile ke re honourable mme [No, I was
saying to the honourable member.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: And then?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Ke re le wena o ka mpakela.[You can be my witness.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Ohoo! ge ausi,
ngwanaka ...[Okay, listen then my child ...]
... hon member take your seat.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Kea leboga mme. [Thank you ma‘am.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: What you did
was to use a simple Setswana word which says, beware. No, no, no,
no! Hon members, it does not matter how you coach your language. A
threat – soft, hard - is still a threat. Please desist from using
mathayithayi to issue threats. Literally speaking what the hon
Mokgosi said is that if you drink too much water you will become
bilious and you will throw out. If you look at it literally, it
means nothing, but in fact it says, if you pile too much on yourself
you will be injured. So, desist from issuing threats to members in
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 97 of 311
this House. Wherever you issue other threats is none of my business,
but in this House it is.
Ms P C SAMKA: Hon Chairperson, ...
AbaPhathiswa abakhona apha, amalungu esigqeba kwiziNdlu zamaPhondo,
obambeleyo isabhokhwe salendlu, amalungu ale ndlu. [Ministers
present here, provincial MECs, acting Chief Whip of the House,
members of the House.]
Ladies and gentlemen.
Mandinibulise ngale mva kwemini ngegama le-African National
Congress. Mandibulele le nyhweba ndiyifumanayo ngokuthunywa yi-ANC,
umbutho wesizwe. Ndibeka umnwe kuhlahlo lwabiwo-mali lweSebe
lezeNtlalakahle noPhuhliso... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph
follows.)
[Let me greet you this afternoon, in the name of the African
National Congress. Let me express my gratitude for the honour
bestowed on me by the ANC. My focus will be on the budget of the
Department of Social Development ...]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Samka,
please take your sit. There is no translation. No, there is nothing
difficult about Xhosa, what we need get fixed up, is the
10 MAY 2016
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interpretation. Is there interpretation up there? We are attending
to the interpretation but remember all languages are equal in this
country. Hon member, please continue.
Nksz P C SAMKA: Enkosi sihlalo. I-ANC iyaluxhasa ulwabiwo-mali
phantsi phantsi koMphathiswa, umama uBathabile Dlamini. Ndicela ke
sihlalo, ukhe undivumele khe ndikowute pha ku-Isaya uMprofethi,
isahluko seso-1 ivesi yesi-2, apho ifundeka ngolu hlobo: ―Yivani
mazulu, bekani iindlebe zenu mhlaba, ndizel‘ abantwana, ndabondla,
ndabakhulisa, basuka bakreqa kum. Ingcono inkomo ne-esile kuba
iyasazi isitali somnikazi wayo, kodwa abantu bam abaqiqi‖.
Sihlalo kwakhona, ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms P C SAMKA: Thank you, Chairperson. The ANC supports the budget
of the department under Minister Ms Bathabile Dlamini. Could you
please therefore, Chairperson, allow me to quote from Prophet Isiah,
chapter 1, verse 2, which reads as follows: ―Hear me, you heavens!
Listen, earth! I reared children and brought them up, but they have
rebelled against me. An ox knows its owner, and the donkey its
master manger, but my people do not think.‖
Again, Chairperson, ...]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members
channel 2
10 MAY 2016
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Nksz P C SAMKA: Lo ngunyaka obalulekileyo kwela Phondo leMpuma Kapa;
kuba kwiinyanga nje ezimbalwa ezigqithileyo, idyunivesithi yaseFort
Hare, esineqhayiya ngayo ibigqiba ikhulu leminyaka. Siyayazi ke
ngokuzibalula kwayo ngokuthi ikhuphe iinkcuba-buchopho, phakathi
kwazo singabalula uDr Mangosuthu Buthelezi; omnye weenkokheli
ezisadla amazimba. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Ngoko ke sithi, halala Nokholeji,
halala!! [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Sihlalo wale ndlu, abantu baseMzantsi Afrika baza kundingqinela xa
ndisithi – namhlanje iyabonakala indima edlalwe ngurhulumente
ekutshintsheni iimpilo zabantu, ingakumbi ekulwisaneni
nokusetyenziswa kweziyobisi ukwakha izimilo zabantu ingakumbi
kulutsha lwezwe lwakokwethu. Urhulumente ebambisene namacandelo
azimeleyo, ukwazile ukubeka imali bucala; eqinisekisa ukuba amaziko
okulwisana nalo bhubhane, ayakhiwa yaye ayanonelelwa kwiindawo
esihlala kuzo, ingakumbi kumatyotyombe. Loo nto ibonisa ukunakekela
nokubambisana kukarhulumente kunye noluntu jikelele.
Simbonile uBosasa kwiingingqi esiphuma kuzo, engena ephuma eqokelela
ulutsha oluthe lwahlangabezana nale ngxaki. Lungena olu lutsha,
luphuma kumakhaya, luncendisa abadala abathe bangamaxhoba
okuxhatshazwa nokuphathwa gadalala ngabantwana. Sithetha nje, apha
kule nyanga yeSilimela, ngomhla wama-26, urhulumente kazwelonke
ebambisene nowePhondo leMpuma Kapa baza kuvula iziko lokuqala, apho
10 MAY 2016
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kuza kuthi kunyangwe amaxhoba eziyobisi kula mmandla waseNelson
Mandela, e-Eastern Cape.
Masiyincome ke sihlalo loo nto, kuba kwiimbali zeli lizwe akakho
urhulumente owakhe wazibophelela ekuziseni iinkonzo kwiindawo
esihlala kuzo neendawo ezihlala abantu abantsundu ngaphandle kwalo
rhulumente ukhokeleyo we-ANC. Simothulela umnqwazi ke ngendima
ayidlalayo ekuzameni ukuncothula nayiphi na into ezama
ukutshabalalisa ikamva lomntwana.
Kwakhona sihlalo, ndivumele khe ndithi tshe kwisigaba somntwana
ukusuka ku-0 ukuya kwiminyaka emi-4. Ndikhe ndithi pha kwela phondo
nje lilodwa laseMpuma Kapa, ezi zigaba zomntwana ukusuka ku-0
ukuyoma kwiminyaka emi-4, kunyaka ophelileyo sihlalo- xa ndingakhe
ndithi gqaba nje amanani -ukwazile urhulumente wela phondo okokuba
aqinisekise into yokokuba ii-early childhood ezithe zafund(wa)
ngurhulumente zili-162 kanti kulo nyaka-mali ukwazile into yokokuba
azongeze zibe li-169. Abantu abaxhamlayo ke kwezo ECDs, ngabantu
abangama-53 027. Loo nto ibonakalise mhlophe ukuba urhulumente
uyinikile ingqwalasela yokuphuhlisa umntwana ukuqinisekisa ukuba
umntwana ngamnye umnika imali engange-R15 ngosuku ukuze kube nento
ayisa phantsi kwempumlo, amxhobise nangolwazi. Ngelo xesha ungena
esikolweni, abe exhonxhiwe, wafunjathiswa nangolwazi
oluphangaleleyo. Yonke lento urhulumente uyenza ebambisene neenkonzo
ekuhlaleni. Umzekelo ophilayo; singabalula inkonzo ephaya eMnceba,
kuNtabankulu, nenye inkonzo ephaya eBhayi, eNew Brighton kunye
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nekwaNonqaba, eMosselbaai; ezithe zona kwizishumi eziyingeniso,
baqinisekisa ukuba kubantwana abathe saa ezitratweni, bayaqokelelwa,
babanike into etyiwayo, balungise neengqondo zezo mpula kalujaca.
Simbonile ke uMphathiswa ngaxesha linye endwendwela ezi ndawo ezama
ukuqinisekisa into yokokuba uyabancedisa ekubeni aba bantwana
bayakwazi into yokokuba balale betyile, njengokuba senditshilo. La
maphulo ke asincedisa kakhulu kuba kuvela amathuba emisebenzi,
ingakumbi kubantu abangamanina. Sisithi ke, idepartment mayibe
ngathi iyaqinisa ekubeni ibancedise abazali kwezaa ndawo kuba
ngaxesha linye uya kuphawula ukuba ngenxa yokuswelwa kwemisebenzi,
abantu abaninzi babona kufanelekile ukuba makube yeyona nto le abaza
kuthi bazuze kuyo; yenze ke ngoku into yokokuba bayenze bengakhange
bawujonge umthetho; balandele umthetho ncakasana. Ifune ke into
yokokuba isebe eli malisondele kufutshane, liqinisekise into
yokokuba bayafundiswa ngendlela nenkqubo apho urhulumente anokuthi
abancedise ngayo ukuze bakwazi ukuxhamla kuwo lo msebenzi.
Kwakhona, sihlalo wale ndlu, kukho lento kuthiwa kukuselwa kotywala
eyandileyo apha eMzantsi Afrika. Yona engubhubhane, kufumaniseke
into yokokuba abantu abaninzi bangamaxhoba otywala, bangamaxhoba
eengozi ezindleleni. Ifune ke into yokokuba, njengabemi baseMzantsi
Afrika abajonge into yokokuba eli lizwe libheke phambili,
masibambisaneni ekubeni silwisane nawo lomkhuba wokusela utywala.
Abantu abangoomama ngabona bantu bangamaxhoba okusela utywala ukuze
10 MAY 2016
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ekugqibeleni abantwana bangabinayo imbeko phambi kwabantu naphambi
kwabazali babo.
Sicela ke siyi-ANC into yokokuba, ingaske ikhe iqwalaselwe lento,
idepartment yenze amaphulo aza kuthi aqinisekise into yokokuba aya
kwezaa ndawo, ingakumbi ezilalini ukufundisa abantu okokuba utywala
abusosiseko, utywala asinto umntu angadlalela kuyo; utywala kwakhona
akuyonto engaze ilithathe eli lizwe ilise phambili. Kwakhona ke
sihlalo xa ndiza kuhlala phantsi, siyayingqina namhlanje into
yokuba, sibambisene singabantu balapha eMzantsi Afrika sinako
ukuyitshintsha impilo yabantu. I-ANC iyayixhasa ireport.
Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms P C SAMKA: This is an important year to the province of the
Eastern Cape because in the past few months the University of Fort
Hare, our pride and joy, celebrated 100 years. We know of its proud
history, having produced great intellectuals such as Dr Mangosuthu
Buthelezi, one of the surviving leaders. [Applause.] Therefore we
say congratulations, Fort Hare, congratulations!! [Applause.]
Chairperson of the House, the people of South Africa will agree with
me when I say that government‘s role in changing people‘s lives is
there for all to see, more especially in fighting drug abuse and
developing moral behaviour amongst the people especially the youth
of our country. Government in conjunction with the private sector,
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has been able to set aside funds to make sure that in the fight
against this scourge structures are set up and looked after in our
communities, especially in informal settlements. This shows that
government cares for and works closely with society in general.
We have seen Bosasa bringing together the youth affected by this
problem in our areas. These young people go in and out of homesteads
helping elderly people who are victims of abuse at the hands of
their children. In this month, on 26 June, national government in
conjunction with the provincial government of the Eastern Cape will
officially open a centre in the Nelson Mandela Bay area, which is
the first of its kind, for drug rehabilitation.
We should commend this, Chairperson, because in the history of this
country no government apart from the ANC-led government has ever
committed itself to bringing services to African townships. We
congratulate this government on its role in trying to eradicate any
impediments to children‘s bright future.
Furthermore, Chairperson, allow me to touch on child development
from phase 0-4 years. Let me say that with regard to this phase of
child development in the province of the Eastern Cape alone – to
provide brief statistics - the provincial government managed to fund
162 early childhood development centres last year and that number
has increased to 169 in this financial year. A total of 53 027
benefit from these ECDs. This shows clearly that government has put
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focus on child development to ensure that R15 per day is spent on
each child so that the child can have something to eat and is also
provided with information. By the time a child starts school, it
should be moulded and provided with comprehensive information.
Government does all this in conjunction with the services provided
at community level. Living examples of this include the services
provided at Mnceba in Ntabankulu, at New Brighton in Port Elizabeth
and at Nonqaba in Mossel Bay. These centres collect poor children on
the streets and, from their subsidies, feed them and mould their
young minds.
We have seen the Minister visit these centres and trying to ensure
that the children therein go to bed with something in their
stomachs, as I have said. Such campaigns are very useful in that
they bring about job opportunities, more especially for women. We
say the department should double its efforts in helping parents in
those areas who, because of the high rate of unemployment, see this
as the main source of income and consequently do things without due
regard for the law to follow legal procedures. This means therefore
that the department should work closely with these people and teach
them about government processes so that they can benefit from this
work.
Furthermore, Chairperson of the House, there is this issue of
widespread alcohol abuse in South Africa. It is rife, and it has
been discovered that many alcoholics become victims of road
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accidents. This means therefore that as South Africans who aspire to
taking this country forward we have to work together and fight this
scourge. Many women are alcoholics and this in turn leads to lack of
respect amongst children.
As the ANC, we would appreciate it if the department could consider
this matter and come up with campaigns in those areas, particularly
in rural areas, to educate people about the fact that alcohol is not
essential, that it is not a plaything and that it can never take
this country forward. Furthermore, Chairperson, before I take my
seat, today we confirm that together as the people of South Africa
we can change people‘s lives. The ANC supports the report. Thank
you.]
MS s P NGOBENI: ( Mpumalanga: Chairperson - Social Development
MPUMALANGA SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT CHAIRPERSON): Hon Chairperson, hon
Minister Bathabile Dlamini, hon Deputy Minister, hon members of the
House, our distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, let me first
congratulate the hon Minister for a well-delivered speech. We really
support the budget, hon Minister.
We humbly accept the responsibility to participate in this debate
under another wake of racist spat. We can only rely on the Judicial
Service Council for its wisdom. Chairperson and members, we bring to
you warm and fraternal greetings from the people of Mpumalanga
legislature. Our Province remains the tourism hub for the people of
South Africa and the globe as we continue to boost the fourth
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largest number of local arrivals. Ours is a province that depicts
and demonstrates humanity. If you have not been to the place of the
rising sun, you have not yet experienced nature, tourism and
humanity.
This debate takes place at a time when we need to pause and reflect
on what the ANC demanded in a democratic government through its
document, Ready to Govern. Our budget policy statement reflects the
aspiration of the ANC to strive for the achievement of the right of
all South Africans as a whole to political and economic selfdetermination in a united South Africa; to overcome the legacy of
inequality and injustice created by colonialism and apartheid, in a
swift, progressive and principled way; to develop a sustainable
economy and state infrastructure that will progressively improve the
quality of life of all South Africans; and to encourage the
flourishing of the feeling that South Africa belongs to all who live
in it, to promote a common loyalty to and pride in the country and
to create a universal sense of freedom and security within its
borders.
Let me also indicate that this budget of R148 billion will really
assist our people down there. The hon Minister indicated what she is
going to do with that budget. Let me indicate that as people of this
country before 1994, we have experienced that our grandparents and
our little ones were not receiving any grant. Our grandparents were
receiving an old age grant once after three months. But now we see
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this government providing grants every month to the children, the
disabled, grandparents and all people who have lost their loved ones
- they are receiving these grants. It is only this department that
can provide and assist. We appreciate that, hon Minister.
[Applause.] I don‘t have any problem because I know that people do
have eyes, but they cannot see what is happening. For this period of
21 years, we have seen that the government of the ANC has provided
houses, pension and everything. How can a person say I can‘t see
what the ANC is doing.
Let me proceed because I am not going to argue with...
[Interjections.]
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, I rise on a point of order. The two members
are now engaging the member and they are not heckling. Can you
please rule on that.
(Point of Order)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members,
you have the right as members of this House... I am addressing you
too, hon members. You have the right to heckle, but you do not have
the right to drown the speaker on the podium. Keep it at that.
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Ms P NGOBENI (Mpumalanga: Chairperson - Social Development):
Chairperson, thank you very much. I don‘t remember addressing any
member in this House.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Please,
address them through me also, hon Ngobeni.
Ms P NGOBENI (Mpumalanga: Chairperson - Social Development): I also
want to appreciate that the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP,
programme for our youth is really assisting them because some of
them... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Don‘t drown
the member. Hon members don‘t drown the member on the podium.
Please, continue.
Ms P NGOBENI (Mpumalanga: Chairperson - Social Development): I
wanted to say that it‘s really assisting us. We hope and believe
that out of the R50 billion that you have indicated it is going to
assist people who sometime abuse alcohol and nyaope drug and the
like. We hope and believe that really it will make a difference to
our people. As Mpumalanga we really support the budget.
We also appreciate your programme of visiting our old ones during or
towards December time, and going to eat lunch with them. We really
appreciate that. They feel very much happy. In some cases you find
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that some our grannies are not taken care off, but they are only
taken care off when they are going to get their grants.
Also, we want to condemn the issue of the grannies whose money is
being deducted by some of the officials. We really condemn that. We
cannot allow a situation whereby they say that this grandmother has
bought airtime whereas it is not. We are in that campaign as
Mpumalanga. We are going up and down to assist in that regard. At
least there is a decrease of such cases in the province. We also
invite volunteers to go to the pay points to check things happening
in those areas. But I want to say that we really appreciate and
commend this budget. We hope and believe that since you indicated
that all provinces are going to benefit in relation to that one
of...
...lavo nwa byalwa hi ndlela yo ka yi nga lulamanga kutani eku
heteleleni va khoma vanhu nkuzi va tlhela va endla na swo tala.
Leswi i swin‘wana swa leswi nga hi tlheriselaka endzhaku.
Ha swi khensa sweswo. A ndzi tshembi leswaku wu kona mfumo wun‘wana
lowu nga vulaka leswaku loko wu nghena wu ta endla yini swin‘wana.
Tani hi ANC hi endlile swo tala. Ku hava swin‘wana leswi va nga swi
endlaka. Va ta endla swihi swin‘wana hikuva leswo tala hi swi
endlile? Swilo a swi lulami hi siku rin‘we. (Translation of Xitsonga
paragraphs follows.)
10 MAY 2016
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[...those who drink alcohol in an improper manner and go around
robbing people and do so many harmful activities. These are some of
the things that takes us backwards.
We appreciate what you doing. I do not believe that there is another
administration that can say when we are in government can do more
than what we have done.
As the ANC, we have done a lot. There is nothing more they can do.
We have done so much, what else are they going to do? Nothing works
perfectly on the first day.]
A baby cannot be born today and start walking, talking and the like.
We need to go step by step that is why I am saying I support this
budget of the Department of Social Development. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, poverty,
food insecurity, unemployment, lack of access to good education,
diseases and homelessness have a direct bearing in a relentless
vicious cycle on family and societal dysfunction.
At the core of social development are all these key challenges that
characterises our communities to this day. Not less than 40 000
young people are found in our jails because, amongst others, they
have resorted to crime and drug abuse. We need to join hands with
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many other role-players in our endeavour to build a caring nation
born out of caring families who are in themselves made up of caring
members.
Religious groups, traditional leaders and nongovernmental
organisations must play a role in moulding and building a caring
human being. The historic contribution that they have made and
continue to make will help us address this challenge.
Many a times there is a feeling of desperate and hopelessness for
families dealing with drugs and alcohol abuse in their homes. There
is a need for a holistic approach that deals with the associated
hurts and hang ups that lead the user down that destructive path.
In South Africa the trafficking of adults and children has grown
immensely. [Interjections.] The growth ...
... Sihlalo, khawundincede apha, uyandihlupha lo mntu lo.
[Kwahlekwa.] [... Chairperson, help me here, this person is
bothering me. [Laughter.]]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You are
protected hon Gaehler.
Mr L B GAEHLER: This growth has been linked to several social
issues, two of which are unemployment and poverty, hence most of the
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alleged victims are people who come from underprivileged homes. To
fight this scourge, government working with nongovernmental
organisations has a greater role to play in eliminating human
trafficking. We have an Act that provides mechanisms for the
eradication of modern day slavery and it must be used.
The use of the child support grant remains a great challenge. Many
of the intended beneficiaries are not benefiting as prescribed by
the law. In this regard, the UDM suggests that the department
develops a clear management and monitoring tool to ensure that this
important intervention is done.
Mphathiswa ohloniphekileyo, ndikhe ndakubhalela ndikhalela le nto.
Khange uzinike nkxamleko yokuba undiphendule, ndithetha ngabantwana
abangayi esikolweni abarhola igranti. Zange undiphendule kodwa
kukaninzi ndithetha nawe. Le nto le iyingxaki naphaya kuMasipala
wesiThili wase-Eden apho sifumanise abantwana bengayi esikolweni
kodwa bafumana isibonelelo sikarhulumente. Into ethetha ukuba ezi
mali zisetyenziswa ngendlela egwenxa. Siyakucela ke Mphathiswa ukuba
ungenelele.
Okokugqibela, le nto uyithandayo ke Mhlekazi. (Translation of
isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Hon Minister, I once wrote to you complaining about this issue. You
never bothered to respond. I am talking about the children who do
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not attend school and yet they get a grant. You did not respond to
me, but I‘ve been talking to you for a while. This is a problem even
in the Eden District Municipality where we found out that children
who do not attend school, still get the government grant. Which
means that these monies are being squandered. We ask you hon
Minister to intervene.
Lastly, that‘s what you like, Sir. ]
The UDM is concerned about the unauthorised deductions made from
pensioners‘ money under the disguise of airtime. We therefore call
on the department to set up a commission to investigate these
illegal deductions so that the money could be refunded to the
affected beneficiaries. We call on the department to have a
commission of inquiry ...
... kubuyiswe ezi mali zabantu zitsalwayo. Yiminyaka iimali zabantu
zitsalwa, Mphathiswa. Siyacela ukuba ukhe ufake ikomishoni. Ukuba
ngamagosa karhulumente mawabanjwe ukuze kubuye iimali zabantu
abahluphekayo. Siyacela kwaye sicinga ukuba uvile ngoku,
kangangokuba ndiyithetha ngolwimi lwakho ukuba aba bantu batya
iimali zabantu babanjwe. Faka ikomishoni babanjwe baye ejele kuba
kutyiwa imali zabantu abahluphekileyo. (Translation of isiXhosa
paragraph follows.)
10 MAY 2016
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[... to pay back the monies that are being deducted from the people.
It‘s been years that the people‘s monies have been deducted, hon
Minister. We ask you to appoint a commission of inquiry. If it is
government officials, they must be charged so that the suffering
people‘s monies can be paid back. We are asking - and we also think
you heard us now because I said it in your language - that the
people who are squandering the people‘s monies should be charged.
Appoint a commission of inquiry so that these people can go to jail,
because they are squandering the monies of the suffering people.]
Please act on this Minister, thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M WENGER: (WESTERN CAPE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMUNITY SAFETY):
Chairperson, we know that a society cannot prosper and develop
unless we overcome social exclusion. Social development is a key
department in our quest to overcome social exclusion. The Minister
has outlined the work her department will be undertaking over the
next financial year with a R148 billion budget. It is this
department‘s role to ensure that social ills facing our communities
such as poverty and substance abuse are eradicated.
The focus of this budget by the department on Early Childhood
Development, ECD, Policy and its implementation is one of
government‘s most important policy interventions over the next 20
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years in relation to the overall enhancement, wellbeing and
development of South Africa‘s children. It is in line with this that
the Western Cape Department of Social Development and the Department
of Health in the province have developed and are implementing the
First 1000 Days Programme.
Research has shown that the first 1000 days of child‘s life are
critical for their development. We believe that the first 1000 days
of a child‘s development, starting from conception moving through
pregnancy, birth and the first two years of life are crucial for
securing a child‘s bright future. Research indicates that physical,
emotional and mental developments of infants develop rapidly during
the first 1000 days period during which the brain grows up to 80% of
its size. These departments identified three pillars that are
critical in ensuring the healthy development of children. These are
ensuring the health and nutrition of both mother and baby, providing
mothers and babies with support from fathers, families and whole
community, providing the right stimulation for the babies‘ learning
needs and giving them a safe substance abuse free environment which
promotes wellbeing.
We are using our growing network of over 1700 registered early
childhood development centres. The social development department
provides advice and support to countless parents of young children
on matters raging from nutrition to assistance with access to safe
and creative spaces for children to grow, play and to develop. The
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following key areas of intervention aimed at improving access and
quality have been priorities from the next three to five years by
the Department of Social Development in the Western Cape.
They are to facilitate appropriate ECD coverage in the province,
improve ECD quality at targeted sites where school readiness is poor
in conjunction with the Department of Education in order to
contribute to the improvement of educational outcomes of children,
improve the quality of nutrition at ECD sites in partnership with
the Department of Health, supporting the mainstreaming of children
with disabilities in selected ECD sites through training teacher
development, parental involvement and support, appropriate equipment
and infrastructure support.
The ECD Policy gives our children the best possible start in life
and we therefore welcome the R810 million that has been allocated as
a conditional grant to provinces as mentioned by Minister Dlamini.
Without a doubt, the allocation will increase the department‘s
capacity to deliver ECD services over the medium term.
This year marks ten years since the establishment of SASSA. Since
its inception in April 2006, the main purpose of social assistance
has been to combat poverty, especially amongst the most vulnerable
in our society. Currently, over 3 million older persons have access
to the old age grant while a million people receive the disability
grant. However, we have heard increasing reports and the Minister
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made mention of this in her speech that beneficiaries have had their
SASSA accounts fraudulently debited and many have been tricked into
taking out high interest loans by loan sharks.
We understand that SASSA will be taking over the management and
control of the payment process from April 2017. The intention is to
have a single payment platform which will facilitate the payment of
social assistance through multiple channels and we hope that this
will have the desired outcomes. It is concerning to note that the
very same people SASSA aims to assist are driven into debt and
further into poverty by these individuals that prey on the
vulnerable.
I am glad that the Minister spoke on human trafficking in her budget
speech in the National Assembly. This is a very serious issue that
needs to be addressed. Recent reports have suggested that South
Africa is a source transit and destination country for men and women
subjected to trafficking. Children young as nine years old are
prostituted as a result of this illicit trade. Many victims are
lured with the promise of employment. Much more needs to be done to
protect our young girls and boys from crimes of this nature.
The Prevention and Combating of Trafficking in Persons Act is a good
start if only it were being properly used. Despite the Act, by the
end of 2014 the Western Cape Directorate for Priority Crime
Investigation, CDPI, had not made any arrest in terms of this Act
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and neither were there any arrested persons charged in term of this
Act. All the persons arrested for human trafficking related offences
were arrested and charged in terms of Sexual Offences Legislation
which begs the question why the legislation is not being used to
convict criminals because 39 cases of human trafficking were
reported to the SA Police Service in the Western Cape between 2010
and 2014.
We have also noted that our communities and families continue to be
torn apart by the scourge of violence, abuse and discrimination and
it appears that the department is taking these issues seriously. We
will engage with the Minister on the victim support bill that is
aimed at strengthening the protection care and support services for
victims. We welcome any intervention that will eradicate crimes
against children and women in our society.
One of the biggest challenges, facing not only the province but
South Africa as a whole, is the scourge of crime in our communities.
The reality is that substance abuse is among the top drivers of
crime in the province and youth make up the biggest social group
involved in both. The Western Cape has plans to ensure that over
12 000 individuals benefit from substance abuse services that
include prevention and rehabilitation.
Also an important medium term target is to render early intervention
services for substance abuse to over 7000 clients in the current
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financial year. In this regard, we welcome the announcement by the
national government of the reintroduction of the specialised police
units. We have long held that the strategy aimed at reducing the
harm of substance abuse not only require social intervention but a
strong and competent policing response with dedicated resources
designed to make arrests and secure convictions of drug manufactures
and dealers.
In conclusion, our priority must be the poor and the vulnerable
because we know that a society cannot prosper and develop unless we
can overcome social exclusion. I thank you.
Mr D STOCK: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Minister, the Deputy
Minister, hon members of the NCOP, special delegates, ladies and
gentlemen, the Department of Social Development plays a critical
role in the lives of ordinary South Africans. The department is at
the centre of the fight against poverty, unemployment and
inequality, in order to mitigate the negative impacts that these
would have on future generations of this country. The National
Development Plan, NDP, Vision 2030 gives social protection a central
role in addressing the critical challenges of eradicating poverty
and reducing inequality.
Outcome 13, the newly inaugurated outcome is an all inclusive and
responsive social protection system. Outcome 13 envisages social
protection as a concept that brings together several elements
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through which government seeks to address the multidimensional
nature of poverty and inequality.
To this end, the department and its partners made significant
strides in improving the quality of its services to the public.
Amongst others, commendable progress has been made in broadening
access to social assistance, early childhood development, services,
victim empowerment, food security, and services to older persons and
people with disabilities.
The social assistance programme remains the single most significant
contributor to the fight against poverty and inequality. In 2015,
the social assistance programme witnessed its largest expansion yet,
with more than 16,5 million individuals benefitting from the social
safety net. More than 11,7 million children benefited from the child
support grant, CSG, while about 2,9 million older persons were
recipients of the old age grant, OAG.
As part of addressing the slow uptake of the CSG among children in
the 0 to 1 year age cohort, and to maximise interventions that
benefit children within their first 1 000 days, the department,
through the South African Social Security Agency, Sassa, registered
140 000 children as CSG recipients.
Similarly, the department made efforts to expand the OAG to the
elderly by increasing the means test threshold to ensure that more
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elderly people benefit from the grant. The increase in the threshold
brought in 80 000 more recipients of the OAG during 2015.
Levels of violence directed at vulnerable groups, especially women,
children and older persons remain stubbornly and unacceptably high.
In response to the high levels of violence against women and
children, the department launched a Command Centre on Gender-Based
Violence during 2015. The Command Centre on Gender-Based Violence
attended to more than 3 500 calls in its first 12 months of
existence, up to the end of March 2015. The centre works in
partnership with the South African Police Services and has a
referral system to the police service for all cases reported through
that centre. It is worth noting that the command centres won two
national awards, namely the Innovation Award from the Contact Centre
Management Group and the Changing Lives Award from Africom Awards.
With regard to services to older persons, the department promotes a
holistic approach to active ageing and the well-being among the
country‘s senior citizens. A number of initiatives have been rolled
out by the Department of Social Development and other stakeholders
to promote the general wellbeing of ordinary South Africans.
In 2014, the Minister of Social Development opened the National
Older Persons Golden Games at the Mbombela Stadium in Mpumalanga.
The games, hosted in partnership with Sports and Recreation South
Africa, saw older persons participating in sport and recreation
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activities such as the duck walk, dress-up race, football, athletics
and others.
The Department of Social Development is tasked with facilitating and
monitoring the implementation of the food for all programmes.
Distressed households were being provided with food through the
department and FoodBank South Africa programme. While social relief
of distress provides short-term relief for poor households, the ANCled government recognises that longer-term solutions are needed.
The Project Mikondzo compels office-bound officials from the
Department of Social Development, the National Development Agency,
NDA, and the Sassa to join frontline officials to interact with
communities in a bid to tackle social problems such as poverty,
unemployment and inequality. The project includes an audit of early
childhood development, ECD, centres and the setting up of a command
centre with a toll-free hotline, which is open 24 hours a day, seven
days a week. It also includes a substance abuse awareness campaign,
targeting sports and music events. The project assisted the
department to reach about two million children who qualify for CSGs
but who have not registered with Sassa to receive grants. The
project is funded by Sassa and the Department of Social Development.
The department is committed to provide services to people with
disabilities. In November 2014, the Department finalised the
National Disability Rights Policy. This policy includes a monitoring
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and evaluation framework that will allow the department to track
progress made in eradicating inequalities and reducing poverty among
the disabled and their families. Through this policy, South Africa
ensures to honour its obligations under the International Convention
on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.
In conclusion, as a select committee, we support the Budget Vote 17
of the Department of Social Development.
Last but least, I think the Rules of this House are actually very
silent on plagiarism. We have actually noticed that some of the hon
members in this House plagiarise. They come to the podium and they
don‘t even quote the sources of their speeches. They present their
speeches as their own speeches. So, moving forward, I think the
Rules of the House must be very clear in relation to hon members who
plagiarise and present speeches as their own.
Yesterday, we watched the repeat of the social development Budget
Vote on TV. It was exactly what was said in the NA, by some members
of that opposition, some of them who are sitting on my left.
[Interjections.] They watch TV and they write down everything that
is being said there. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Don‘t drown
the speaker.
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Mr D STOCK: When they come to the podium, they present it as their
own speeches. [Interjections.] I think we are also going to have an
opportunity, as the NCOP, to review the Rules of the House. Part of
the proposal that I want to present to the House ...
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I refer to
earlier rulings. Does the member have any proof of that? Can he
supply us with proof or withdraw? That is an earlier ruling. Let us
go with that because I really have a problem with today‘s rulings.
The previous ruling of hon Nyambi, when you were not in the House,
was that you can make any statement as long as it is in your debate,
while you are debating. You overturned that ruling and I am very
glad you did or I perceived that you actually overturned it because
I became very worried. Let us draw a line now.
An earlier ruling was made, a member of this House made a statement
and the hon Chair said that the member must withdraw or bring proof.
If this member cannot bring proof that other members are guilty of
taking someone else‘s speech and read it here, he must withdraw
unconditionally.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I think you
have made your point. Hon Stock, your point of order is that you are
saying that members are plagiarising and the hon Julius says if you
cannot prove that, you must withdraw.
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Mr D STOCK: Hon Chair, I can provide proof to that effect. I can
provide proof to that effect. To provide proof to the House here, I
can say that yesterday, the portfolio committee had a debate on Vote
17 and it was live on TV. Some of the members presented exactly what
was said and done in the NA, here today. So, that is proof. I am not
thumb-sucking and I am not misleading the House. So, that is the
proof.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order! Can I
make a ruling? Order! Order! Hon Julius, the member says that - I
paraphrase the hon members of the EFF - it is a party line that they
propagate in the same manner. Hon Stock says that they are
plagiarising. They say it is not and that it is a party line that
they propagate in the same manner. I am going to leave it as open as
that. [Interjections.] Yes, I am because the members you sought to
protect are saying that they are saying it and it is what they are
saying as a party.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chair, those members there ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Which members?
Mr J W W JULIUS: ... referred to the Western Cape member that spoke
... [Interjections.] He referred to the ...
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Julius,
please take your seat. Hon Stock, did you point a finger at the
members of the Western Cape?
Mr D STOCK: No, I did not, hon Chair. No.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Julius,
let us concede that a finger ... [Interjections.] Order, hon member!
Let us concede that ... [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, I am
addressing the House. [Interjections.] Hon Julius, the point you are
making is that hon members should not plagiarise. The point we will
accept is that our Rules are silent on plagiarism. Members will
quote, but in this instance the members of the EFF say very freely
that they are quoting what they are saying over and over because
they are sending the same message. In that case, there is no
plagiarism. Can we continue, hon Stock?
Mr D STOCK: Hon Chair, within the same spirit, in terms of the
context of plagiarism, the ANC-led government here in Parliament has
made a serious, serious, serious intervention for Members of
Parliament. There are libraries here. Members can go to libraries
and research their speeches. They can attend committee meetings and
they can also sit down and write their own speeches. So, members are
not supposed to ... Hon Julius, ... Sorry hon Chair, through you,
members are not supposed to come to this House and present their
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speeches as if it is their own speeches. They must always quote the
sources where they get their information from.
As a select committee, we support this Budget Vote. Thank you very
much.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Stock, o seka wa re bolelela gore re bue jang.
[Stock, do not dictate to us on how we should talk.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokwele,
you are addressing me.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Through you, hon Chair.
Stock, o seka wa re bolelela gore re bue jang. [Stock, do not
dictate to us on how we should talk.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokwele,
it is hon Stock and through me.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Mr Stock.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokwele!
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Stock, through you, Chair, ...
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O seka wa re bolelela gore re ngangisane ka ga eng. Ee. O seka wa re
bolelela. Ga re a go tlela. E bile ga wa re boutela ntate. Ee. [Do
not dictate to us as to what we need to debate on. We are not hear
on your account; you did not vote us in Sir.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mokwele
and hon members, a point of order is not what hon Mokwle has just
done. What she is doing is encouraging dialogue that we don‘t want.
Hon Stock, we do not have a Rule that says people cannot quote their
party lines. Otherwise, all parties would not have speeches. In that
line, I think we must leave that as a point of debate, but members
have the right to regurgitate their party lines. They have the
right. It is when you now really ... If it is a party line, it will
be very difficult for us to rule. If, however, you want to steal
what Abraham Lincoln said as your own and we can catch you out, we
will have issues. I do not remember a Rule of this House that speaks
to plagiarism. So, we do need to look into it and see how, in the
future, we ensure that we keep ourselves in line. Hon Motlashuping,
you are in the House. [Interjections.]
Mr D STOCK: Hon Chair, as I conclude, ...
Ka Setswana leleme la ko gae. Setswana sa re, ngwana o o tlhogokgolo
o sira rragwe. [In Setswana: A rebellious child is a disgrace to his
father.]
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In actual fact, in English it means that you have a very small child
with a big head. The father of that child will not be able to see
because of the big head of the child.
Ngwana o o tlhogokgolo o sira rragwe. [A rebellious child is a
disgrace to his father.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can I ask ...
Batswana le diane tsa bone. Ka ditlhogo tse dikgolo, ka metsi a
mantsintsi ... [Laughter.] [Batswana and their idioms; with big
heads and waters ...]
Just in the ... Please.
Mr M B KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister allow me to start by
expressing the condolences of the IFP to the family of the late hon
Senzo Mkhize, the Chief Whip of the Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal.
Sithi ulale uphumule Khabazela. [We are saying rest in peace,
Khabazela (Clan name.).]
Social protection in South Africa is faced with surmountable
challenges which require close attention from the department. Social
protection does not only rest with the Department of Social
Development. The municipal indigent programmes are social
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protection. The energy indigent programme is social protection. The
Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, programme is social
protection. The social grants administered by the Social Development
Department are social protection and social security.
But there is no co-ordination in respect of identification of
beneficiaries by all these different stakeholders. Each one of them
has their own individual criteria of how they identify
beneficiaries. And these are stakeholder guidelines which are not an
official poverty line commonly adopted by government for all ofthem.
As a result, someone may be indigent with the municipal
socialprotection policy, but not quality for social protection with
the social development security programmes, or the housing
programme, or any other social protection programme.
The annual increases which are put to the grants every year by the
National Treasury into the social grants are not inflation informed.
These increases are some what thumb- sucked. The national Treasury
needs to explain, when Child Support Grant, CSG, or care dependency
grant or any other grant goes up by R10 per annum for example, what
it is that informs that increase.
The means tests administered in order for an applicant to quality
for any grant requires documents that may be difficult to acquire at
times, especially to the rural communities. Means tests for
qualification must indeed ensure that the programmes are not easily
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open to fraud and corruption. But at the same time the department
must assist those who end up falling into a wrong programme because
of difficulty in accessing necessary documentation for a relevant
grant. The CGS ends up being the most popular grant, may be because
of easy access to documents. Yet, it jeopardises those who should
have qualified for foster care grant or care dependency grant. This
is because the latter two are difficult to access but more in value
and CSG is easier to access but lesser in value.
This is tantamount to disguised exclusion. The IFP is concerned
about the sustainability of these programmes, if the Department
Social Development, DSD, does not devise quality programmes of selfhelp and self-reliance as exit programmes for some beneficiaries.
Whilst administering social protection programmes is good as a
relief measure, citizens also need to be gradually assisted to can
be able to stand on their own. With the economy slowly sliding
downwards each year, there might come a time when government may not
be able to honour some commitments.
South Africa continues to suffer from moral decay which results in
continued incidents of children and women abuse, and increased
incidents of substance abuse. The department needs to intensify its
programmes in these areas.
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As the local government election approaches, hopefully on
3 August 2016, the IFP hopes that the department will cease to be
the goose that lays the golden eggs for campaign programmes.
The Public Protector has recently confirmed that the Department
wrongfully utilised the programmes of the department to benefit the
ruling party in the 2009 elections through thee then Youth League
President Mr Julius Malema. We hope that the practise of buying
votes through government assistance programmes will come to an end.
The IFP agrees with the sentiment expressed by the Minister, it is
wrong to politicise hunger of the people. I can only hope that we
will practise what we preach. I thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members we
often speak of departments operating in silos. I would like to ask
the hon Minister, what she has done in forward planning for the
responsibilities of this department, the current economic situation
and the growth rate predictions for South Africa?
With an economic growth rate of 0,9%, which is most likely to drop
to below zero, the economy cannot grow. Economic growth of at least
5% as per the National Development Plan, NDP, is required to
decrease unemployment.
The World Bank estimates that 34% of South Africans are poor
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How is this department going to make a difference in the lives of
8,9 million unemployed people when there is already have
16,9 million state grant recipients?
This department had suddenly embarked on a social distress relief
campaign towards the end of the financial year in March in the
Western Cape, where literally queues of people stood waiting for the
R750 cash payout. This happened not because of a critical disaster
but because the department did not do its work throughout the year.
In how many other provinces did this happen.
The social development grant payment system has many illegal
deductions and now after six years it forbades all deductions, not
even funeral insurance policy deduction without consent. It should
be like that but until now the very poor and vulnerable have been
exploited with airtime and electricity deductions. The luring sale
speech – if you take this EasyPay card you can have an instant loan
of R1 000 on your South African Social Security Agency, SASSA, grant
the consequences of course is that the loan has to be paid back over
six months which will just dump the poor in a spiralling dungeon of
debt. This has happened because the National Credit Act,
Act 34 of 2005 has not been applied and the hon Minister allowed it.
It is necessary that the hon Minister explains to us how the new
regulations will actually stop the deductions because it is now from
the EasyPay card. We need for sure that the umbilical cord between
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the Minister and the department on the one hand and the Net1 Cash
Paymaster Services, CPS, on the other side has been cut altogether.
Minister, I have a whole lot of enquiries for you here today where
people are complaining about illegal deductions. When they get to
the SASSA offices they are referred to CPS and CPS tells them to
phone the number at the back of the card. That number on the back of
the card is never answered. So, we look at the services on the
ground for the SASSA beneficiaries is there MTN offices or Grindrod
Bank that will attend to the queries. No there isn‘t. So, the
question is, are we actually looking after the poor in this
particular case. One final question hon Minister is that your
department will stop using the CPS system in 2017. So, where are we?
Are you going to buy the Net1 CPS system or are you going to devise
another one? We have got no time left. We are running out. It is
absolutely critical that we do what we have to do to secure the
safety net for the poor. Otherwise we do not serve the poor in this
country. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr A J NYAMBI: Chair, Minister, I open with a quote from an unknown
author: Sometimes it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool
than to open your mouth and leave no doubt. [Interjections.]
The chief aim of the ANC in developing and implementing the
Reconstruction and Development Programme was to address the immense
socioeconomic problems that were caused by the long years of
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apartheid and the neglect of our people. We said this because, as we
were preparing to take over the reins of power, we undertook one of
the most comprehensive analyses of the ravaging impact of apartheid
in our society. In one of the first policy frameworks for our
movement titled, Ready to Govern: ANC Policy Guidelines for a
Democratic South Africa, we acknowledged the immense impact of
apartheid and the social exclusion of our people.
By 1994, our society was completely fractured by the legacy of
apartheid, which permeated almost every aspect of our life in our
communities. South Africa‘s economy was facing a variety of
structural problems that left our people in some of the most
disconcerting social conditions of poverty, unemployment,
illiteracy, poor health and dysfunctional social support systems.
After the demise of apartheid in 1994, the ANC-led government
proceeded with greater urgency and profound resilience to develop
one of the most comprehensive social transformation agendas geared
towards changing the material and social conditions of our people.
Armed with our Constitution, which was inspired by the vision of the
Freedom Charter, we proceeded to work with the utmost resilience and
determination to weave the threads that will see us celebrating a
nation which is nonracial, nonsexist and democratic – a nation that
is dedicated to pushing back the frontiers of poverty.
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In addressing poverty and inequality, the ANC-led government
committed itself to providing the basic rights to shelter, food,
health, employment, education, health care, water, sanitation and
all aspects that promote the physical and social wellbeing of all in
our society. As a result of our knowledge of the lived experiences
of our people and the brutal conditions that we faced under
apartheid, we proceeded with fierce urgency to provide a social
safety net to the most vulnerable sectors of our society. These
include women, children, youth, families in need of care and older
persons.
The ANC‘s position on social transformation seeks to empower people
to lift themselves out of poverty, while creating adequate social
nets to protect the most vulnerable in our society. Following the
ANC‘s national conference in 2007, a comprehensive social security
strategy was developed, which included expanding the base of the
poor through housing, land reform, and unemployment and accident
insurance, amongst other things. As a result of the decisive
interventions of the ANC, our programme of social grants has reduced
the poverty gap by an enormous 63%. We are aware that there are
those among us who are always quick to accuse us of building a
society that is dependent on social grants. Of course, they will say
so, because, unlike the majority of our people, their lives were
made more privileged by the conditions that existed under apartheid.
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As the ANC, we have said creating a social protection network and
strengthening families should remain a cardinal feature of our
national efforts to transform South Africa. In advancing this
perspective, we have said we need to move with great speed to build
a caring society that treats its most vulnerable with the utmost
respect and dignity. It is for this reason that we committed
ourselves to wage a concerted war against household poverty in all
its manifestations. We take great pride in the fact that the
Department of Social Development allocates the majority of its
budget to social assistance to our people. This is in line with our
arch aim of ensuring that every South African, especially the poor,
experiences an improving quality of life.
We, as the ANC, support the budget of the Minister of Social
Development. In supporting this budget, we believe that it is at the
centre of our decisive programmes and interventions to bring hope
for a better life to our people. The interventions of this
department continue to ensure that the ANC-led government remains a
bold beacon of hope and an instrument for the continued liberation
of our people from the trappings of poverty, unemployment, poor
health and underdevelopment.
I would be failing if I did not share with the House part of what I
have learned from this glorious movement. There are two things that
have an influence in life: upbringing and education.
[Interjections.] Education can be both informal and formal. If you
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speak in this House and compromise its decorum and show signs of
disrespect ...
... ngeSiswati angibuki wena ngibona umtali wakho. Ubohlala wati
kutsi nawutfola litfuba lekutokhuluma la, awutikhulumeli wena. Uma
ngibuka wena ukhuluma ngibona ekhaya lapho uphuma khona. Mine ekhaya
kitsi bangifundzise kutsi ngaso sonkhe sikhatsi uma ngikhuluma
ngihlale ngati kutsi konkhe lengikwentako kusuke kukhombisa kutsi
nguyiphi indzima ledlalwe batali bami ekungenteni kutsi ngibe
ngumuntfu. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)
[...in Siswati I am not looking at you but looking at your parent
through you. You must always bear in mind that when you are given an
opportunity to speak here, you are not speaking for yourself. When I
hear you speaking I see your home where you come from. At home I was
taught to always know that when I speak and everything that I do I
am reflecting the role played by my parents in bringing me up to be
who am I.]
Let me hasten to say that some of you are even quoting the Public
Protector‘s report, State and Party: Blurred Lines. It is only 40
pages. Go and read it so that you do not quote selectively.
[Interjections.] Nowhere in that Public Protector‘s report does it
say that social development must not assist the vulnerable. It is
addressing party involvement in social development. It is very
clear. [Interjections.]
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As uTata Madiba said, ―Poverty is not an accident. Like slavery and
apartheid, it is man-made and can be removed by the actions of human
beings.‖ At all times, when we get an opportunity to come here and
debate, the work of Parliament starts in the committees, not only at
this podium. If you don‘t attend a committee meeting and hope that,
by coming here, you are going to be able to engage with the
department that is doing a presentation and ask them questions at
committee level, you are doing us a disservice to our role of doing
oversight, in this Parliament.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, I don‘t have to attend those things. It is
nothing.
Modulasetulo, ke ne ke botsa gore a Modulasetilo wa Baduladitilo, o
ikaelela go tsaya potso? [Chair, I need to know if the Chair of
Chairpersons is willing to take a question?]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, are you prepared to take a
question?
Mr A J NYAMBI: With pleasure!
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chair, while we were engaging informally, the hon
Nyambi just said here that every time the EFF speaks from the
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podium, it speaks facts. Hon Nyambi, are you aligning to that there
or are you there to protect the party line? [Interjections.]
Mr A J NYAMBI: Shame on you, hon Mokwele! [Applause.] I deliberately
decided to take a question because I realised you didn‘t even have a
question – and you are fabricating lies. Shame on you, hon Mokwele!
Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon Mtileni? [Interjections.]
Order! Hon Mtileni?
Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chairperson, I just want to check: Is it
parliamentary for the hon Nyambi to say, ―Shame on you‖ when he
knows exactly ... [Interjections.] ... He was exchanging words with
the two beautiful ladies there. [Laughter.]
Mr A J NYAMBI: Can I respond to you?
Mr V E MTILENI: What was he feeling when they exchanged that with
the two beautiful ladies? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OP: Order! Order! Hon
Mtileni, ―Shame on you‖ is parliamentary. [Laughter.]
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Let me hasten to thank all the
MECs and representatives from provinces for their support and
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encouraging information and acceptance of the speech which is going
to be our policy for this financial year. And then also, I think
this came at the right time because today marks the 10th Anniversary
of the inauguration of our first President, the late President
Nelson Mandela. And that today I want to also say happy birthday to
my father, who is 83-years-old. [Applause.]
And then I want to stress that I am ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: ... a teetotaller and challenge
any member to make that allegation outside of the privileges of
Parliament, the allegation that I dream. Anyone who wants to
challenge it outside, say it. [Applause.] And then, thirdly ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, please take a pause. Hon
Mtileni?
Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Chairperson, what the hon Minister is saying,
don‘t you consider it as a threat? Like you said earlier ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I respond to you?
Mr V E MTILENI: Is it a threat or a challenge?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, it is a challenge. [Interjections.]
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Hon, please take your seat! Please take your seat! I heard you.
[Interjections.] No! No! Hon members, number on end. Can I see
another veteran parliamentarian here, hon Chris Harty? Hon members
of different Houses have said exactly the same way words. What you
say in the House if you are sure of your facts say it outside. It
actually simply means, say no, and say it out there so that I can
sue you without the protection of the House. That‘s what the
Minister was saying. [Applause.] Thank you very much. Hon Minister,
please continue.
AN HON MEMBER: It is on record.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: The issue of the easy pay card,
that‘s not our card. We have put the record straight. It‘s not our
card. Secondly, out of 78 events we attend as the department, there
are 570 acro events that are driven by the department, working with
other departments and SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, Social
Development NDA, National Development Agency. To the tune of last
financial year, it was R30 million.
Now, in other province, Sassa is a National Entity. And you go
there, you work with us. But I have been trying to say, no, you do
take chances in these activities. I here have the paraphernalia of
the DA in a Sassa event. [Interjections.] So, please, let‘s be very
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careful of what we say. [Interjections.] No! [Interjections.] And
then, one other thing that I want to say ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Do not drown the speaker on the podium
Continue, Minister.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: One other issue that I would
like to raise is that Social Security itself has proven to
contribute to economic growth. The contribution to the economy has
been proven by even the World Bank. The Social Security system has
also protected the poor. [Interjections.] And therefore, Social
Relief of Distress, SRD, runs throughout the year. And we are going
to continue running SRD at all times. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, take your seat! Hon
Labuschagne!
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, on a point of order, I would like to know
if the hon Minister would like to show us the evidence of the
Western Cape because I am sure that‘s the Western Cape government
logo and not the DA logo. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That‘s done. Can we please proceed?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order!
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, you said she must show
you. She has given you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Can I ask you that the Minister withdraw that
that‘s the DA logo because it‘s the Western Cape government logo.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: It‘s the government logo. I said
so. I made a mistake if I said DA. Its government ... But even the
government of the Western Cape is not supposed to put its logo on a
national entity event. That‘s the issue. [Interjections.] That is
the issue.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! [Interjections.] Order!
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: One other thing ...
[Interjections] ... look.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, Minister!
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: The issue of New Brighton ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, please take your seat! Hon
Mpambo! [Interjections.] Hon Mpambo!
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: I am Mpambo-Sibhukwana, Chairperson.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes! [Interjections.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: And is the double barrel. Chairperson, now
that the Minister has said herself that she made a mistake, can she
officially refrain that? She said to the House that she made a
mistake. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Okay, I refrain ...
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: ... that the government itself
is not allowed to put that paraphernalia in the activities of the
National Entity.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, just take ... Hon
Mtileni, what is your point?
Mr V E MTILENI:
Hon Chairperson, may you please ask the Minister to
withdraw because she can‘t just say I made a mistake and you leave
her like that? She should withdraw.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Okay, I said I withdraw, but I
insist that provincial government ...
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, take your seat please!
[Interjections.] Hon Mtileni, please take your seat!
[Interjections.] Let me respond to you. [Interjections.] Hon
Minister, take your seat! [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni, please take
your seat! [Interjections.] Hon members, order! [Interjections.]
Order! [Interjections.] Order! Sit down! [Interjections.] Sit!
[Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, take your seat now! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Do that! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Do that:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister! [Interjections] Hon
Minister! [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele!
Ms T MOKWELE: I am not scared of you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hey, hon Mokwele! [Interjections] Hon
Mokwele! [Interjections.] Usher of the Black Rod! [Interjections.]
Hon Mokwele!
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chair!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have been asking you.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I apologise.
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You apologise?
Ms T J MOKWELE: for you, not for ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! I want to address you,
hon Mtileni. [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni! [[Interjections.] A
member of the DA ... [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele! [Interjections.]
Mokwele! [Interjections.] You will not address this House or
continue to make any noise when I am addressing this House.
[Interjections.] Hon Mtileni! [[Interjections] Hon MpamboShibhukwana, makes a point of order and says Minister refrain. The
Minister says, I will refrain, but even the provincial government
has no right to use their logo at National events. You stand up and
you say, the refrain is not enough, she must withdraw. She says, I
withdraw, but the provincial government has no right to display
their logo at a national event. Now, you want me to rule at whether
or not, there was a withdrawal or a refrain. There was a withdrawal
and refrain with the caveat that says provincial governments have no
right to display their logos at the national government. I think
that we should give that ... [Interjections.] No! [Interjections.]
No, no, no, I am not hearing an issue on Giyani, we are addressing
this matter. [Interjections.] Please, take your seat!
[Interjections.] Take your seat, Mtileni! [Interjections.] Hey, take
your seat! [Interjections.] Take your seat! [Interjections.] Hon
Minister, please conclude. [Interjections.] Please conclude.
10 MAY 2016
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The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
... lastly ... [interjections.] ... I would like to address my issue
of expressing my feelings. [Interjections.] I have a right to
express my feelings. [Interjections.] And actually, I get very
disappointed if women who cry behind their close doors when they are
abused laugh at the abuse and a patriarchy, I face impended. It is a
disgrace, it is embarrassing and it means we have a lot of work to
do as South African women to try and educate the nation about the
issues of violence against women. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I have a point of order.
Members in the gallery ... [Interjections.] ... Members in the
gallery ... [Interjections.] ... you are not to clap your hands, you
don‘t do anything. You are here as observers and that‘s it. Hon
Smith? [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] Order! Hon Smith,
you are on the floor.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I think we should take the matter
that just happened with the hon Minister very seriously.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!
Mr C F B SMIT: That was a deliberate misleading of not only the
House but the public. That this matter should actually go to the
Ethics Committee and being handled at that level because if we have
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a Minister that is misrepresenting information in front of the whole
of South Africa saying that the DA logo was a Western Cape
Provincial Legislature‘s logo, It‘s a very serious allegation and
she has acknowledged that it is wrong. And I think this matter
should go through the Ethics Committee.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit! [Interjections.] Order!
[Interjections.] Order! Hon Smit, I thought you were rising on a
point of order. The matter is raised by two members of the DA before
you. The Minister says I have made a mistake, it is a government
thing. There is a demand that she withdraws, she withdraws. If you
wish to insist that this matter be taken further, please put a
matter a little letter, a substantive motion to my office. And let
us proceed. Hon Minister, please proceed.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I would like to
thank everyone who supported us and we call upon South Africans to
continue supporting us in our fight against the eradication of
poverty. [Interjectionsns.] Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokgosi, behave yourself. Minister,
have you concluded?
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Yes, I am finished. [Applause.]
APPROPRIATION BILL
10 MAY 2016
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(Policy debate)
Vote No 23 — Police:
Vote No 20 — Independent Police Investigative Directorate:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, the MECs present in this
particular Budget Vote ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, please take a seat. Yes
hon Mtileni?
Mr V E MTILENI: Heck, I‘m seeing ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What are you seeing?
Mr V E MTILENI: I‘m seeing ... after the conclusion of the speech by
the Minister of Social Development ... I‘m seeing a lot of people
who filled those chairs ... [Interjections.] I wanted to know ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order.
Mr V E MTILENI: ... did they accompany her and waste taxpayers‘
money? [Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni that is not a point of
order. Any member of Cabinet is accompanied ... can be accompanied
to any House. I‘m addressing you. [Interjections,] That is not a
point of order. Take your seat. [Interjections.] That is not a point
of order. Take your seat. You are wasting the time of this House.
Take your seat. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. The
chairperson of the select committee Mr Ximbi and the select
committee members, the acting national commissioner Lt Gen Phahlane
and your management team, the head of the Directorate for Priority
Crime Investigation, DPCI, Lt General Ntlemeza and management team
... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Members, there‘s too much noise in the
House.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... the acting executive director of the
Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, Mr Kgamanyane,
the acting secretary of police Mr Rapea, the chairperson of the
Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority, PSIRA, Board Prof
Mazibuko, the director of PSIRA Mr Chauke, the chairperson of the
Firearms Appeal Board Mr Mongwe, members of the SA Police Service,
the SAPS, esteemed guests, ladies and gentlemen, there is a
convergence of views in articulating the future of our society; at
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the centre of which is education. Former President Nelson Mandela
advanced that education is the most powerful weapon ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I have a member on her
feet. Please take your seat. Hon Mokwele?
Mme T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, Tona o buela kwa tlase, le gone go
nale modumo. Gongwe fela fa o ka mo neela metsotsonyana ele tlhano,
gore batho ba ba ntseng kwa ba kgone go suta, ga re mo utlwe, o
buela mo menong thata. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Chaiperson, the Minister is too soft. We are
struggling to hear, the noise is too high. Please allow him five
minutes so that the people at that far end can shift. Can he please
raise his voice?]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, the point is taken but in fact
the point you are making is no longer relevant because the people
have left. Therefore you should be hearing. Hon Minister, you do
have a Barry White tone. Can you just crescendo a little bit?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: There is a convergence of views in
articulating the future of our society; at the centre of which is
education. Former President Nelson Mandela advanced that education
is the most powerful weapon which one can use to change the world.
Abraham Lincoln stated that the philosophy of the schoolroom in one
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generation will be the philosophy of government in the next. The
great philosopher Plato suggested that the direction in which a man
starts will determine his future in life.
We raise these particular matters today precisely because the
fundamental question we ask is how people could decide to burn down
25 schools, destroying the future of our children just because of a
dispute over municipal, not even national or provincial, borders.
Essentially, this is an act of blatant, utter selfishness. It
represents a situation where backward thinking human beings only
think of their narrow interests and disregard the interests of
others; even worse, completely disregarding and/or deliberately
destroying the future of our children. Regardless of the seriousness
of the dispute, we cannot let our children suffer. Our children
cannot suffer because of our own inadequacies as adults.
In this regard, we speak for the ANC, its supporters and the
majority of other people who still remain in their sober senses in
condemning the acts of thuggery that have manifested itself in
Vuwani, Limpopo, where schools have been torched ostensibly in the
quest for municipal boundaries, which is just simply nothing else
but a disgrace; a despicable act which we all, the ANC and
opposition parties alike, speak out against and shun upon.
This despicable behaviour, a behaviour that encourages anarchy and
chaos as a form of addressing grievances, was under a different
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occasion and circumstances actively encouraged by others in this
legislative House. Worse still, we have heard some among us
deliberately speaking out to our people, publicly claiming to want
to settle their political scores and disrupt this democracy through
the barrel of a gun. Indeed, this is a shame and essentially sad.
Certainly there can never be any justification for burning down a
school. Never! Even during the evil days of apartheid we always
understood that education was vital for our liberation; that
education was essential for the development of an African child for
the African child to take their rightful place as worthy human
beings of our society; and that our collective future depended on us
improving ourselves. It cannot be that as we commemorate Africa
month, we see actions that contribute to keeping the African child
under growth deprivation.
We have consistently argued that making our country safe is a
collective effort that involves all stakeholders — communities,
government and business. Now we need this collective effort and
conscience more than ever. We salute the brave and wonderful parents
of Bungeni village who have taken it upon themselves to guard their
school from these louts. This is a true meaning of being a
responsible member of society — putting the interests of children
first, even if it means spending sleepless cold nights.
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I also take this opportunity to congratulate our police members for
handling this situation in the most responsible manner under the
circumstances, especially the arrests that have been effected. We
earnestly appeal to the community of Vuwani and anywhere in our
beautiful land to reject the criminal elements, the inhumane beings
that use the genuine grievances of our people to commit such
dastardly acts.
I also take this opportunity to thank Minister Mahlobo who was
acting Minister of Police in my absence, Minister Van Rooyen and
Deputy Minister Sotyu for showing leadership in the interventions
that they made in Vuwani.
Since my assumption of office in 2014, we have visited every
province in our beautiful country to interact with citizens but also
to acquaint ourselves with the prevalent conditions and learn what
improvements could be made to reduce crime and its scourges from our
communities. We are encouraged by the good men and women who defy
the odds and their circumstances in the fight against crime.
We have heard our people complaining about the easy and ubiquitous
availability of alcohol and drinking places that are taking over
communities and are a precursor to other crimes.
Drugs like nyaope have turned family members against each other and
children rob their homes and parents for a fix. During our visits we
10 MAY 2016
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have heard people complaining about the lax or noncompliance with
municipal bylaws which at times sees taverns in close proximity to
schools. This is what the community of Kwadukuza in KwaZulu-Natal
and a community in Secunda in Mpumalanga told us. We also heard
similar tales from other provinces.
We are confronted everyday by tales of a hijacked building in
central Johannesburg; cable theft that brings industries to a halt;
taxi violence; mushrooming settlements; undocumented foreigners
especially in provinces like Limpopo and Mpumalanga; the abuse and
rape of the elderly in the Eastern Cape; stock theft in the Free
State; and illicit mining.
However, much as we still experience these stated difficulties our
situation is not hopeless. We have recorded some successes,
including the profiling and detaining of vessels carrying
counterfeit goods in the Eastern Cape; cracking a cash-in-transit
gang of 13 in Virginia in the Free State; detecting and closing 21
illicit drug laboratories in Gauteng; and smashing rhino poaching
syndicates in KwaZulu-Natal resulting in 69 arrests and the seizure
of 35 firearms associated with these gangsters.
We have also linked 3 431 out of an overall 3 900 schools in Limpopo
to police stations; prioritised and recorded significant drug
busting in Mpumalanga through the Lebombo border post en route to
Gauteng; in the process recovering 596 livestock worth R3,3 million
10 MAY 2016
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in the North West; linking via deoxyribonucleic acid, DNA, a serial
rapist to 34 cases in the Northern Cape; and piloting the mobile
client service centre for localised service delivery in the Western
Cape.
Crimes against women and children continue to bedevil our society.
We have seen some notable successes in fighting this scourge. The
Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences unit has done
extraordinary work and has really dealt a severe blow to abusers and
rapists. In Limpopo this unit has attained 52 life sentences and
2 O50 years‘ imprisonment for those convicted of rape and other
sexual assault cases. In Gauteng, 45 suspects were sentenced to life
imprisonment for rape. Fifty four accused received life sentences in
the Free State and an equally high number in the Eastern Cape where
raping of the elderly is rife.
Challenges for the medium term and beyond are the need to address
the problem of gangsterism in our communities; upgrading
infrastructure; responding to rapid spatial developments; enhancing
police safety; focussed investigations of cyber-crime; and
conducting more high density lockdown operations.
As part of our efforts in improving policing service, we continue to
roll out police station infrastructure to reverse the apartheid
patterns of resourcing and taking into consideration new
settlements. We have launched police stations in Diepsloot, in
Yeoville in Gauteng; in Mambuka, KwaZulu-Natal; Plettenberg Bay in
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the Western Cape; and we are due to do the same in Madadeni in
Newcastle, KwaZulu-Natal. In the course of about seven or eight days
from here on we will also be launching a police station in Keimoes
in the Northern Cape and a number of other areas which were not
previously serviced.
Through the Civilian Secretariat for Police, we are ensuring that
police stations deliver the required service. We are monitoring and
having unannounced visits to police stations assessing their school
crime prevention protocols as well as auditing their compliance with
the Domestic Violence Act. Twenty four visits were conducted to the
Eastern Cape; we conducted 29 visits in the Free State; and 10 in
the North West to mention but a few. There is a need to ramp up the
Domestic Violence Act audits because a nation that cannot safeguard
its vulnerable sectors does not deserve a place among a community of
nations. Civil society remains a key partner in this effort and we
would like to urge organisations to keep up the pressure and work
closely to ensure that the Domestic Violence Act is implemented
correctly and consistently.
The same goes for the complaints management. Standing order 101
regulates the activities, processes, practices and timeframes
relating to the management of service-delivery complaints lodged
against the Police Service. Complaints provide the Police Service
with an opportunity to make an indepth analysis of the systemic
challenges that must be addressed to improve service delivery to the
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citizens. As part of addressing service-delivery complaints,
complainants should receive regular and consistent feedback from the
appointed SAPS investigator. We received and are dealing with a
total of 517 complaints from all provinces which included, but are
limited to resourcing shortcomings and general unhappiness with the
10111 service.
Through the secretariat we have also assessed community safety
forums as well as community policing forums, CPFs, and found that
the majority of these structures are indeed functional. The
following challenges amongst others are raised by provinces with
regard to CPFs: inadequate resourcing; lack of provision of
transport by the SAPS for CPF members to attend meetings; and no
budget for implementation of CPF programmes given the limited budget
provided by the departments of Safety and Security.
This is work in progress and we will continue to close the distance
between the police and the policed. Part of this work includes
ensuring that provincial secretariats are up and running. To date
Gauteng, Free State, North West and Western Cape provinces have
established secretariats while the other provinces are busy
reviewing organisational structures with the aim of establishing
secretariats in the foreseeable future. The common challenge shared
by the provinces is the shortage of personnel and financial
constraints which hampers service delivery.
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The Ipid contributes to building safer communities and ensuring that
all people in South Africa are and feel safe. The Ipid received a
total of 5 519 cases for year 2015-16. Of these, 3 508 constitute
the majority of cases related to assault; 865 for the discharge of
official firearms; 366 for deaths as a result of police action; and
216 for deaths in police custody.
The majority of the assault cases were reported in the Western Cape
and they stand at 871; Free State follows with 545; Gauteng follows
with 436 and KwaZulu-Natal with 426 cases. Most of the assault cases
are classified as common assault. For the period under review, 3 O50
matters have been closed and archived.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, please take your seat.
Hon Mokwele?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon House Chair, I was suggesting that we have the
report that the Minister is outlining now. We can read it for
ourselves. Let him come up with something for debate, not read the
report please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, please take your seat.
That is not a point of order. Continue hon Minister.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: For the period under review, 3 O50 matters
have been closed and archived. The majority of these cases which
stand at 1 036 were declined; 888 were unsubstantiated cases; and
416 were cases referred back to the SAPS.
The Ipid has forwarded 1 297 matters to the SAPS and 939 matters to
the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, for decisions. The
directorate achieved 177 convictions of which 26 received verbal
warnings; 66 written warnings; 27 dismissals; 10 suspended from the
service; 1 with a suspension of salary; and 47 were fines. The
directorate received 83 convictions and in one particular matter a
member received a life sentence.
It should also be noted that Ipid has an additional mandate of
implementing the recommendations of the Farlam Commission of
Inquiry. This additional mandate has implications on Ipid‘s staffing
and financial resource needs. The directorate has started with
implementing elements of the recommendations that do not have
budgetary implications.
The PSIRA has developed new training standards for all the different
categories or classes of security service providers who are required
to register in terms of the Private Security Industry Regulation Act
and has prepared a policy document for consultation with the
industry and its stakeholders. The consultations and the draft
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training regulations took into account the principles as pronounced
by the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act.
Improving service delivery remains a key priority for the authority.
In order to ensure that stakeholders continue to have access to our
much-needed services, the authority will be officially opening new
offices in the Free State and North West provinces during the 201617 financial year. The launch of these offices will help to address
the growing demand for the authority‘s services in these areas and
further ensure that the various rural communities from these
provinces are serviced.
Due to a lack of recourse for users as well as end users of private
security services in cases of damages incurred, the authority is in
the process of establishing a guarantee fund which is aimed at
addressing ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Please conclude hon Minister. Conclude.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, Ma‘am. Let me just
conclude by thanking the select committee and its members for its
diligence in maintaining and exercising oversight, and in ensuring
that we deliver on our mandate and constitutional obligations.
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Ladies and gentlemen, our effort in policing South Africa is about
humanity and its development. Therefore, our determination and
effort is about honour and integrity, and it is all about upholding
the ethics and values of our forefathers in creating a humane
society. In this regard, we shall not fail our people. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr D L XIMBI: House Chairperson, hon Minister Nhleko, hon Minister
Zokwana, members of the executive councils, MECs, who are present
here today, Acting Commissioner for SA Police Services, SAPS,
Executive Director for the Independent Police Investigative
Directorate, IPID, senior officials and Members of Parliament, ...
... ndivumeleni ndicaphule kwincwadi endakhe ndayifunda ethi, ―Beka
uyihlo nonyoko ukuze imihla yakho yolulwe emhlabeni.‖ Ngamazwi
okuqala lawo. Athi awesibini, ―Hambani nina nisindileyo ekreleni,
ningemi.‖ Athi awesithathu, angawokugqibela, athethwa nguYesu
kubafundi bakhe, ―Niyabona, nihamba phakathi kwamangcwaba athethayo,
ahumzelayo ze ningawamameli kuba anisayi kufika apho niya khona.‖
(Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... allow me to quote from the book that I have read which says.
―Honour your father and your mother, so that you may live long in
the land.‖ These are the first words. The second one says, ―Go you
who have escaped from the spear, and do not stop.‖ The third one
says, which are the last words spoken by Jesus to His disciples, ―Do
you see, that you are walking amongst the talking graves - do not
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listen to those who are whispering because you will not arrive where
you are going.‖]
Chairperson, the police that we have today are far better than the
police that we had before 1994. 2015 saw a rise in public violence
incidents in South Africa, involving student protests as well as an
alarming increase in the killing of our police officers. Appropriate
police action involves finding a balance between saving the state,
the public and police professionalism. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! Sorry, hon Chairperson.
Hon Mokwele, please lower your voice. Continue hon member.
Mr D L .XIMBI: The National Development Plan, NDP, speaks about
ensuring this balance, and states that by 2030, all people in South
Africa should feel safe and not fear crime. One of the Medium-Term
Strategy Framework, MTSF, targets is to ensure that SA Police
Services, SAPS, reduces the level of contact crime. During his 2016
state of the nation address, His Excellency, the President of the
Republic of South Africa, Jacob Zuma, noted that the SAPS is
undergoing a turnaround and has adopted the Back to Basics approach
to management, to rebuild the organisation and to improve
performance at all underperforming police stations.
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The Back to Basics approach is therefore, aimed at returning the
SAPS to dealing with its core mandate of prevention, investigation
and combating of crime. These include: discipline and the manner in
which police officers conduct themselves as a distinctive
characteristic of policing; enhancing police visibility, which
implies more police officers in uniform, thereby minimising
opportunities to commit crime; and targeted informed deployment of
operational resources to ensure the optimal utilisation of the
limited resources that the police have at their disposal, ensuring
that they have applied for maximum effect.
The SAPS police Budget is R80,9 billion and incorporates the
following over the medium-term and it will be utilised for: firstly,
addressing the current fixed establishments; secondly,
professionalising the police service through skills development;
thirdly, continuing strengthening of the criminal justice system by
contributing to the criminal justice sector, revamp and
modernisation programme; fourthly, investing in capital assets
consisting of machinery and equipment and strengthening the resource
capability of the Public Order Policing Unit.
In the Select Committee's interaction with the saps on their budget
and their Annual Performance Plans, APPs, the following were raised
as key issues for the SAPS to focus on going forward: firstly,
ensuring that every police station has sufficient vehicles and
resources; secondly, ensuring that there are sufficient forensic
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laboratories; thirdly, ensuring that our children are kept safe via
the school safety programme and worse in the Western Cape, where ...
... kubulawa abantwana kungekho ndlela yokuba abantwana mabadlale.
[... children are killed and there is no other way for them to
play.]
Fourthly, ensuring that police officials act in accordance with
human rights principles in carrying out their duties; and lastly,
ensuring the successful implementation of the Rural Safety Strategy.
Therefore, in conclusion, [Interjections.] to achieve the balance
between serving the state, the public and police professionalism,
the Back to Basics approach should ensure that the police
effectively fight crime and work with the community to effectively
implement this programme.
The ANC remains committed to ensure that all people are and feel
safe ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Chairperson, please hold on. Just
take your seat. Hon Mokwele, why are you on your feet?
Ms T J MOKWELE: I just want ... – we are here to work mama Cathy
right? This is time for work.
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Talk to me hon Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Okay, I want to check whether the Chairperson of my
lovely committee will be able to tell South Africa what they are
doing with regard to capacity building of men in blue ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Do you want to ... – Sorry, do you want
to ask him a question?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Can we check with him first?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes. Capacity building ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, no! Hon Mokwele, no!
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... why do you reduce the duration of training?
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! [Interjections.]
Mr D L XIMBI: Sihlalo, andinalo ixesha lokuthatha umbuzo walo sisi.
[Chairperson, I don‘t have time to take a question from this hon
member.]
Allow me to speak about IPID. When we talk about the IPID, we talk
about an important body responsible for ensuring a system of
internal and external checks and balances aimed at ensuring that,
police carry out their duties properly and are held responsible if
they fail to do so. [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
The IPID Act gives effect to the provision of section 206(6) of the
Constitution, ensuring independent oversight of the saps and
Municipality Police.
The IPID plays an important role in professionalising the saps
through conducting investigations and making appropriate
recommendations. The core mandate of the IPID contributes towards
the realisation of outcome 3 of the MTSF, which mirrors that of saps
- all people in South Africa are and feel safe.
In achieving this, IPID will focus on the following: the directorate
will expand its investigative methods and systems to respond to
cases of police misconduct and the abuse of police power; the
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directorate will strengthen its investigative capacity through the
newly established National Specialised Investigations Team. The
team's mandate is to conduct specialised investigations and
facilitate the training of investigators on systemic corruption and
other specialised investigations; the percentage of investigations
into police misconduct that are decision ready is expected to
increase as a result of the implementation of the above
investigative initiatives.
The primary goal is to ensure that the police services get rid of
corrupt and nonprofessional officials. The directorate will train
police officials at all police stations on key provisions of the
IPID Act, 2011. The training is aimed at ensuring that the police
officials are fully aware of and compliant with the provisions of
the Act in relation to their reporting obligations on crimes
committed by police officials.
Implementing recommendation referred to the police service by the
directorate and co-operating with the directorate during
investigations. In 2016-17, the IPID received the main appropriation
of R246,1 million. The keys focus over the medium-term is to
strengthen its investigative capacity including improving the
quality of training for investigators and the guidelines, systems
and procedures used for investigations and reporting.
10 MAY 2016
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In a meeting between the Select Committee on Security and Justice
and IPID, the following were raised as key issues: awareness raising
of IPID services to the public needs to be improved; to improve
the quality and effectiveness of policing, it is vital for the
public to understand the services of IPID and to be able to lay
complaints with IPID; efforts must be made to improve IPID's
operational footprint to ensure the efficiency of its
investigations.
It is clear that IPID has to investigate police misconduct to
ensure a greater trust is established between the community and
the police. By ensuring that more awareness raising i s conducted
with the public and improving its investigative capacity, it
will contribute to greater levels of police professionalism and
integrity.
The ANC supports the B udget of the IPID, w h i c h i s Vote 20. The
ANC supports Vote of the SAPS, which is Vote 23.
Nina nisindileyo ekreleni hambani ningemi. Ningaphikani ke nabantu
abakhomba indlela bajike bayilahle. Namhlanje abantu bathetha
ngenkululeko, bathetha ngamapolisa, abanye bathi baza kulithatha eli
lizwe ngemipu kwaye bazibiza ngokuba bangooChief Commander okanye
Thief Commander, loo nto leyo. Siyalazi ukuba eli lizwe leza ngoxolo
kwaye lilizwe elilawulwa ngentando yesininzi. Ukuba uTata uMandela
10 MAY 2016
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angaze ayive le nto ithethwa ngaba bantu apha phandle, angavuka ame
ngeenyawo. Kaloku siyabazi ootata bethu ukuba bangabantu boxolo.
Naba bantu bathetha ngemipu xa kungoku, ngela xesha sasisiza
nelizwe, babengekho bona. Zange balwe. (Translation of isiXhosa
paragraphs follows.)
[You who have escaped from the spear, walk and do not stop. Ignore
people who lead the way and end up losing it. Today people are
talking about freedom, they talk about the police; some say they are
going to take this country by force through the use of guns and they
call themselves Chief Commander or Thief Commander, whatever it is.
We know that we got this country through peace and this is a
democratic country. If Tata Mandela could hear what these people are
saying out there, he will rise from the dead and stand on his feet.
We know that our fathers are peace loving people.
These people who speak about guns now, when we were liberating the
country, they were not there. They never fought.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Sorry, hon Chairperson! Hon
Chairperson, please hold it. Hon Mokwele and hon Mokgosi, can I
remind you about Rule 32. Hon Mokwele, hon Mokwele and hon Mokgosi,
hon Mokgosi, please listen to me. Hon Mokgosi! I have seen you
Ma‘am; I will give you a chance. Let me address this point. Hon
10 MAY 2016
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Mokgosi and hon Mokwele! Ma‘am, Mpambo-Sibhukwana, please take your
seat. I have seen you. I have noted you. Let me remind you on Rule
32. Please listen. It says, during a debate in the Council, no
member may converse aloud. And you two hon members are really
debating from the floor. You are allowed to heckle but please, don‘t
drown the speaker. Hon!
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Your ruling hon Chairperson into what hon
Mokwele has just said to my colleague about a white racist remark.
Can she please withdraw the statement? And I want your ruling in
that regard, please, hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, no don‘t respond. Hon
Mokwele, hon Mokwele, [Laughter.] – You know ... – The use of
unbecoming language in this House is not allowed. Please withdraw
your remarks.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, you know ... [ Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Withdraw your remarks hon Mokwele?
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... this boy, this boy ... [Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Now you are repeating. He is an hon
member of this House. [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... this boy, this white boy. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele, eish. Hon Mokwele, no.
[Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... he must, he must respect me first.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele!
[Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: He has been making some remarks. [ Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mokwele! Hon Mokwele! Listen to me!
Hon Mokwele, if the hon member was attacking you, you were supposed
to stand up and raise the issue because he is in the House. So now,
what you are saying is totally out of order. Hon Mokwele, please
leave the House. Hon Mokwele, please leave the House.
[Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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Ms T J MOKWELE: I am not going to do that ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): When?
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... that white boy doesn‘t respect us. If you want
me to leave, I will leave ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Please help us; the hon member must
leave the House. Assist her to leave this House because we cannot
allow what she has just said. Okay, the hon member is on her feet,
can I give her a chance first, before I allow you, hon member? There
is a member standing behind you. Hon member, please give her a
chance.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: I wanted to have your ruling on the
derogatory remarks of a boy because semantically, it undermines his
manhood and he is a man. Unfortunately, she has left but I would
like you as a presiding officer in this House together with the hon
members to be witnesses because we won‘t stop but take this matter
further. We need your ruling on this, hon presiding officer.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): I assure you, you didn‘t hear me
10 MAY 2016
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because the hon member was busy speaking. I really did ask her to
withdraw because the hon member is not a boy; he is an hon member of
this House. Hon member!
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I think we were all shocked by the remark
here and I think we can only deplore that. But the last remark that
the hon member made before she left the House, went far beyond this.
And I want you to look at the record. Blasphemy in this House should
certainly not be tolerated. She can insult me, she can call me a
racist, call me a white boy but blasphemy in this House cries out
against anything ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, your point is taken. The
other thing that we will do is to refer the behaviour to the
Chairperson of the Council because it is totally unbecoming and
cannot be tolerated. But anyhow, we did ask her to leave the House.
Can we continue hon members!
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I think we need to address ...
... abantu boMzantsi Afrika. Ukuba bendisecaweni bendiza kuthi
lifikile ixesha lomgwebo, lokokuba abantu boMzantsi Afrika kuthethwe
nabo ngolu hlobo ngabantu abathi baza kuphatha eli lizwe.
Singaphathwa kanjani ngabantu abangenambeko? Eli lizwe, lilizwe
lezithethe namasiko kwaye safika kweli lizwe bekhona abantu
10 MAY 2016
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abamhlophe. Saye savumelana ukuba siya kuhlala sincedisane
ngokusebenza kweli lizwe. Ngoku abanye abantu bathi ezinye iintlanga
azikwazi ukuma apha, luthethe ngenxa yebala labo. Ndifuna ukuthi
uMzantsi Afrika mawuzikhethele. Iindlela zimbini, enye iya
kwantshabalala, enye iya kwaThixo. Ndiyayazi ukuba abantu bayayazi
i-ANC ukuba ngumbutho onembeko ebantwini kwaye unamagqala, unabantu
abadala, hayi ooNotsibidyokhwe abafane bathethe.
Ndifuna ukuthi, umz‘ontsundu mawungalahlekiswa ngabanye abantu. Ze
bangabinaxhala ngemipu nangeembumbulu. Ndiyawazi amagwala
ayakuthanda ukugrogrisa babe bethetha izinto ezingafanelekanga ukuba
zithethwe. Thina ke bantu bakhe baqeqeshwa bangamajoni, balwa,
bazabalaza, siyayazi into yompu. Asidlaleli kuyo. Aba bathetha
ngemipu ngoku, ngelaa xesha sasisebenzisa imipu babeseziswini zethu.
Namhlanje baza kugrogrisa ilizwe elilunge kangaka, eliqhubela
phambili kangaka nelihlonitshwe lihlabathi lonke.
Siyicelela uxolo le ntetho inje singurhulumente. Ayisuki
kurhulumente koko kubantu abaziziqu ezifuna ukurhwaphiliza.
Iyingxaki into yokuba abantu babe bethetha ngorhwaphilizo. Wena
wakhe wayiva na ikati isithi iziyekile iimpuku ibe imisila ivele
emlonyeni? Ungathetha kanjani ngorhwaphilizo? Nazi iimpuku zivele
ngemisila emlonyeni kodwa ukatana uthi uziyekile ukuzitya.
Sinengxaki. Ukuba singathetha kungasa phandle kodwa ke ndifuna
ukuthi siyaluxhasa oluhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali Mphathiswa. Siyabulela
kakhulu, enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
10 MAY 2016
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[...the people of South Africa. If I was in church I was going to
say the time of judgement has arrived; that of addressing the people
of South Africa like this by the people who are saying that they are
going to govern this country. How will we be governed by illdisciplined people? This country, is the country of norms and
customs and when we arrived here the white people were already here.
We agreed that we will always help each other in developing this
country. Now there are people who are saying to people of other
races that they cannot stand here and speak because of the colour of
their skin. I want to say that South Africa must choose for itself.
There are two ways, the one goes to destruction, the other one goes
to God. I know that people know that the ANC is the party that
respects people and that they have stalwarts; it has elderly people,
not ill-disciplined people who just say what they want.
I want to say, black people must not be misled by other people. They
must not worry about guns and bullets. I know that cowards like to
terrorise while they talk about things that are not supposed to be
said. We, the people who were trained as soldiers, fought and
struggled for freedom; we know the gun issue. We don‘t play with it.
Those who talk about guns now, while we were using guns they were
not even born. Today they are going to terrorise a peaceful country,
which is progressive and respected by the whole world.
10 MAY 2016
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We apologise for this type of talk as the government. It does not
come from government, but from people who want to loot. This issue
of people who always speak about corruption is problematic. Have you
ever heard about the cat which says it has stopped eating rats while
the tails appear in its mouth? How can you speak about corruption?
Here are the rats appearing by their tails in the mouth of the cat
but it said it has stopped eating them. We have a problem. If we can
speak, we can speak until the sun rises but I want to say we support
the Budget Vote Minister. We thank you a lot.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, all South Africans want to feel
safe. We want to feel safe in our own homes, in our neighbourhoods,
in our own towns and in our country. This need to feel safe is not a
luxury. It is a claim to the most basic of needs and the most basic
of rights. In this instance, the state has both a duty to act
proactively to prevent the occurrence of crime and where crime
occurs, to react to ensure that it does not occur again. Of course,
crime is part of the human condition and the circumstances in which
we live. It will always be present. The sad fact is that South
Africa still ranks as one of the countries in the world with the
highest homicide and rape occurrences, this, for a nation which has
enjoyed a state of international peace for more than 20 years.
It is the South African Police Service, SAPS, which is ultimately
responsible for ensuring the internal security of our nation and her
people. Although there is a serious lack of proper training of
service men and women, serious underesourcing of officers and police
10 MAY 2016
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stations, which both the Minister and the Deputy Minister on various
occasions have acknowledged and the socioeconomic factors that play
a role. It is the general distrust in the SAPS by the public that
worries me most. The most recent Victims of Crime Survey found that
nearly 45% of assaults and 37% of sexual offences are not reported
to the police. One of the main reasons for this was that police
won‘t do anything. Yes, we do have some excellent police officers in
the field who remain dedicated and committed to their work in
service of our nation. These officers put their lives at risk every
single day to protect us as ordinary citizens. To them we are
immensely grateful. But the problem is that in most circumstances
these honest and dedicated officers are subject to the authority of
less honest and less dedicated individuals at the helm.
One such example is the Provincial Police Commissioner of my own
province, the Free State, who has reportedly barred all station
commissioners in the province from complaining about the serious
lack of basic resources throughout the province. In turn, station
commanders have told their own staff that they are not to complain.
SAPS management have chosen to turn a blind eye instead of finding a
solution to this inconvenient truth and in the process, lives of
South African citizens are lost. At the top of hierarchy ...
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, on a point of order: With due respect, I
think you need to make a ruling. The hon member is casting
10 MAY 2016
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aspersions about the MEC of the Free State to say he has barred
commissioners from reporting around his province.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order, hon Faber, I really want
to hear what the hon member is saying. Please repeat.
Mr M J MOHAPI: I am saying, there is no evidence from the side of
hon member to cast aspersions around the MEC that he has barred
commissioners from reporting about failure to spend.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): The hon member Mohapi, unfortunately,
it is a point of debate so we have to allow the hon member to
continue.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: ... of untrustworthy bureaucrats, is none other
than the hon Minister, Nathi Nhleko, to whom I wish to extend a warm
welcome to this House. You will remember that I have raised the
matter of the Ministers nonappearance before our select committee in
my budget speech last year. During this year's briefings, the
Minister received an invitation but never showed up and never
informed his Deputy Minister to attend in his place. The select
committee - rightly so — requested that the department leave and to
only return once they bring a member of the executive with. Again,
the Minister did not pitch, but sent his Deputy instead. When asked
why he and his colleagues never appear before us to account to the
10 MAY 2016
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MPs in the NCOP, the excuse is always the same: we will appear when
we receive an invitation and we are not afraid of accountability.
This attitude reeks of disrespect for this House and the people we
represent.
AN HON MEMBER: Yes.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: This Minister has made more official visits to
overseas countries — heaven knows for what - over the past two
months than appearances before the Select Committee over the past
two years. This is the same Minister who was happy to abdicate his
responsibilities, like the last three national police commissioners,
in favour of undue political interference. Instead of protecting the
South African taxpayer, the very people who voted him in, this
Minister chose to undermine the public protector and to attempt to
save the skin of his boss for Nkandla. And we have the
Constitutional Court judgment to prove it. [Applause.]
Similarly, the previous national commissioner is currently on
suspension and facing an inquiry into her fitness to hold office
because of her actions that led to the massacre of miners at
Marikana. This is what happens when political appointments are made
where we should have proper apolitical appointments of career
officers who have the proper experience to deal with difficult
situations when they arise. But ultimately the person, who should
take the blame for the state our police is in, is the political
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head. Not much has changed since Marikana and the Minister of Police
should hang his head in shame.
The political fiasco he has created does not only extend to the very
core of the police service itself, but has extended to those tasked
with fighting priority crimes. Here l am referring to, The
Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, Hawks, who have been
compromised through yet another political appointment in the person
of Berning Ntlemeza. How can the person leading an elite unit such
as the Hawks be the one whose character is consistently called into
question? And this is not us saying this. In 2014 the North Gauteng
High Court stated that Ntlemeza was ―biased, dishonest and lacked
integrity and honour‖ and further that the very man responsible for
fighting crime and corruption and organized crime was dishonest and
―made false statements under oath". He is, in short, as much an
oxymoron as the words ―Hon Minister‖. And then these political
appointees embark on witch hunts against those who make it
uncomfortable for their political masters.
Among their victims are forensic investigator, Paul O‘Sullivan,
Advocate Thuli Madonsela as well as the former head of the Hawks
Anwa Dramat and other Hawks leaders in Johan Booysen and Shadrack
Sibiya. In reply to a parliamentary question in October last year,
it was revealed that since the disbandment of the Scorpions in
January 2009, there has been a 60% decline in arrests and an
astounding 83% plummet in conviction rates in the last six years of
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the Hawks‘ existence. If there is any doubt that Ntlemeza was a
political appointment, one only needs to read the statement by
former Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, head in
Limpopo, Humbulani Khuba, stating that Ntlemeza knew about his
appointment as acting head of the Hawks a full year and three months
before the appointment was made. The DA has repeatedly called for
the disbandment of the Hawks in favour of the re-establishment of
the Scorpions, reinstated to its rightful place under a strong and
independent National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, as the key
corruption-busting unit in our country. We cannot allow the further
loss of innocent lives due to state capture by this government —
albeit directly, or as an indirect consequence. Finally, I wish to
make one thing very clear: the allocation of resources to the
provinces, with regards to the number of police officers, equipment,
vehicles for example, is a national competence and is the
responsibility of the national government under the ANC. Yes,
provinces have limited powers to assist the SAPS, but ultimately the
effectiveness or ineffectiveness of our police falls directly under
the political leadership of Minister Nhleko.
If the Hon Minister is not able to ensure the effective functioning
of the police service in all our provinces, as a member of this
House representing the interests of the provinces, I extend a warm
invitation to him to embark on the process here in Parliament, in
handing over his duties to the provinces through appropriate
legislation. Some of our provinces are ready, willing and able to
10 MAY 2016
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ensure that their citizens are protected by an effective and
trustworthy police service free of state capture and political
interference. But, we cannot work to bring down the high crime rates
in each province because we don‘t control the police. So Minister,
your choice is simple: if you don‘t want to step up and fix the
SAPS, then hand it over to someone who will. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: House Chair, on a point of order: My apologies to
address you after the hon member has departed the podium but the hon
member made use of the word ―moron‖ in his argument. Can you please
go to the Hansard and come back with a ruling as to in what context
it was used.
AN HON MEMBER: Oxymoron.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Unfortunately the hon member left the
podium so your point of order was late.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, sorry, in terms of the rules I am
allowed to make a statement and I have made it clear.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, I did not give you a chance
to speak, please take your seat.
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Ms T WANA: Hon House Chair, hon Chairperson of the NCOP in absentia,
the acting Chief Whip of the NCOP, hon Ministers, executives of the
SA Police Service, permanent delegates and special delegates ...
... zikumkani neenkosi zelizwe lethu, ... [... kings and chiefs of
our country,...]
...I greet you in the name of our glorious movement, the ANC, which
has 104 years.
I sincerely thank the people of South Africa for having given the
ANC a further mandate to lead South Africa in the fifth democratic
Parliament.
Okokuqala, xa ndibhekisa kwesi sithethi sisuka apha, xa
uphindaphinda ubuxoki, ... [Firstly, when I refer to the previous
speaker, when you are repeating lies, ...]
... when you are repeating propaganda it becomes the truth.
Secondly, let me say, ...
... zemka iinkomo magwalandini. [... away goes your cattle, you
cowards.]
That was the slogan by a black woman in 1846 when they were
dispossessed of their land, but that slogan is still relevant even
10 MAY 2016
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today like it was during those days. Its relevance was clear because
brothers and sisters who were educated sided with their traditional
leaders to defend themselves and those who were attorneys were
neutralising the colonial masters. That slogan is still relevant
today because our own people are stabbing the ANC and that is not
fair because this organisation is a caring organisation. The police
today are not the same as those of before 1994 because those
policemen were targeting the political activists and nothing has
been done about that because the ANC bears no grudges. We are saying
that the ANC leads.
Xa ndibhekisa kuni ke bantu basemakhaya, nina baseNtabankulu, nina
baseQumanco asikwazi ukusebenza apha ngenxa yabantwana benu
abaqalekisiweyo. [When I refer to you my compatriots, the people
from Ntabankulu and Qumanco, we cannot work here because of you
cursed children.]
It is very difficult for us to work and preserve a discipline
because we are dealing with a cursed generation because they don‘t
have focus. The only focus they have ...
Utata uNqevu, kweza lali zethu, wenza ibali ngekati. Uthi ikati
sisilwanyana sasekhaya esihle kakhulu. Kodwa ukuba ikati ithe yatya
iimpuku iyakhutshwa ize negama layo litshintshe, iyeke ukuba yikati,
ibe yingada. Uthi ke utata uNqevu, ingada ayilityeleli ngabubele
ikhaya eyayihlala kulo. Ndifuna ke bantu bakuthi, niyazi ukuba yonke
10 MAY 2016
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le mibuthwana ayiyityeleli ngabubele imisebenzi emihle kaMadiba.
(Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Tata Nqevu, from our villages, made a story about a cat. He said a
cat is a domestic animal which is very beautiful. But if a cat eats
rats it is dishonoured and its name changes, it stops being a cat
and becomes a wildcat. Tata Nqevu said, the wildcat does not visit
its previous home with a good heart. I want you my compatriots, to
know that all these minority parties do not visit the beautiful work
of Madiba with good intentions.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order hon. Hon Wana, please take your
seat, ma‘am. Hon Mtileni?
Mr V E MTILENI: Hon House Chair, may you please fix ... we do not
have the Xitsonga interpretation and 90% of the deliberations are in
Zulu.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, please check channel two.
Mr V E MTILENI: It is not Zulu, it‘s Xhosa. [Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Take your seat, hon Mtileni and switch
to channel two. [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Or maybe she can change to English. [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Or do you want me to help you to
resolve the problem? Continue, hon Wana. [Interjections.] Switch to
channel two.
Ms T WANA: I-ANC iyaluxhasa olu hlahlo-lwabiwo-mali lamaR80 billion. Ngoku sihleli apha Sihlalo, ...
[The ANC supports the
Budget Vote of R80 billion. While we are sitting here Chairperson,
...]
... it is not even two hours, our policemen, the Hawks unit, have
managed to take two Nigerians to court with an illegal machinery
that makes drugs. I am proud of our own policy because the policy of
the ANC is clear. We want to demilitarise the police force, although
our own brothers are faced with militant and rude communities. In
the state of the nation address, the President told the police that
they must defend themselves when people in the communities are
killing them because if you kill a policeman; you are committing
high treason because it is the arm of government.
10 MAY 2016
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Secondly, let me go on and tell you about the Back-to-Basics
approach improvement. As a committee overstated in Gauteng and the
report was clear that they are committed to the new dispensation of
Back-to-Basis programme.
In the Eastern Cape ... I am very happy to say that the budget is
R6 billion and that means that this government is a caring
government. Let me talk about Independent Police Investigative
Directorate, Ipid ...
Mr V E MTILENI: It is only English on all these channels. It‘s only
English. May you please ask her to take a seat ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, as she is continuing with
the debate ...
Mr V E MTILENI: No, but I‘ll be missing all what she is saying.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): In the meantime switch on channel two
and they will be fixing ... Which language are you looking for?
[Interjections.] Xitsonga? Okay.
Mr V E MTILENI: Ask her to sit down whilst they resolve ...
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni!
[Interjections.] Hon Mtileni!
Mr V E MTILENI: I want to get each and every word, you know.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, please take your seat.
That will be taken care of. The hon member is continuing with the
debate. Continue, hon Wana. In the meantime, check channel two then
... [Interjections.]
Hon Mtileni. Hon Mtileni, for the last time, please take your seat
and tune on channel two. The Xitsonga ... [Interjections.] But those
people are not the ones who are controlling the channels. We are
solving the problem; take your seat. In the meantime switch on
English. And take your seat, hon Mtileni. Take your seat, hon
Mtileni. . Take your seat, hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni, take your seat!
Hon Mtileni, take your seat! Hon Nthebe? [Interjections.] Okay, hon
Nthebe is on the floor; please take your seat.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, according to the Rules of this House your
ruling is final. Can you plead with the hon member standing that it
is either he accept your ruling or he allow us to continue with the
debate. Thank you so much. [Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, I did not allow you to
speak. I asked you to take your seat and you are still standing. Hon
Mtileni!
HON MEMBERS: Take him out!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni. Hon Mtileni, please take
your seat, we want to continue with the debate. Continue, hon Wana.
Ms T WANA: Lastly ...
... bantu bakuthi ngoba nani niyazibonela, ndiyavuya ke xa
nizibonela kuba i-ANC yazisa iPalamente kuni kwaye abantu abangafuni
nkqubela phambili niyababona. Ndiyanicela ngomhla wokulungiselela
ukunqophisana; ukuphumeza amaphupha, nibazi ukuba abantwana bethu
abanezinto ezibomvu, ngabo aba bangafuniyo ukuba siqhubeleke
phambili. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... my compatriots because you can also see for yourself; I am
happy that you also see for yourselves that the ANC brought
Parliament to you and you can also see the people who do not want
progress. I am asking you on the day of preparing for the covenant
to fulfil the dreams; you must know that your children with the red
attire, are the ones who do not want progress.]
10 MAY 2016
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Let me congratulate ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Wana, my apologies.
[Interjections.] You were still on your feet, hon Mtileni.
Mr V E MTILENI: You can‘t fail to resolve a small issue. While you
fail in these big things, I cannot expect you to fail by assisting
me with the Xitsonga interpretation. [Interjections.] I know that
you are good failures but not on this one.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni, earlier on
you said she must either speak in English ...
Mr V E MTILENI: But she is continuing in isiXhosa.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): But then now, we have channel two,
which is interpretation in English. I asked you to tune on channel
two, so that we can continue.
Mr V E MTILENI: Let me check. Let her speak while I listen.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Channel two. Continue, ma‘am.
10 MAY 2016
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Ms T WANA: The thing is, you are wasting my time because the ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Don‘t worry about time. Don‘t worry
about time; your time is being taken care of.
Ms T WANA: As I am saying, this is the only organisation that has
managed to build a substructure called Ipid ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order, hon Mthimunye. Order. Order, hon
Mthimunye. Hon members ...
Mr M CHETTY: Have you recognised me, Chairperson. Would you please
protect me and ask the hon member to refer me as an honourable
member not that fella ... [Interjections.] Not that fellow.
[Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you very much; I did not hear
that. [Interjections.] Hon Mthimunye, please, he is an honourable
member. [Interjections.] You didn‘t say that; okay. [Interjections.]
[Laughter.] Continue, hon T Wana. No, hon members, no, no. Hon
...er! Please, man. Continue, hon Wana.
10 MAY 2016
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Ms T WANA: The time when the Western Cape province hired a hypocrite
called O‘Sullivan, we the ANC never said anything but today I
congratulate our police because that crook is behind bars and the
other one crunched because all of them are revolving around the
tricks of the National Party, now DA.
What I am saying Chairperson is that, Ipid, ...
... isincedile ukuba ibekhona ... [... is a blessing to have ...]
... because we are very aware, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Wana, hon member take your seat. Do
not worry about time. We are managing it. Hon Van Lingen?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, on appoint of order. There is a
ruling in this House where on 3 May when hon Mthimunye was referring
to hon Khawula as a member or a prodigal son of the ANC and he was
asked to withdraw. I am referring to this member and ask you to rule
on her to withdraw their tendency of saying that some of us belonged
to the National Party in the past. The fact that we are the DA does
not mean that we have any association, other than hon De Beer who
was with the National Party. [Interjections.]
Ms T WANA: Thank you, Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
10 MAY 2016
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Wait. Hon Wana, wait.
[Interjections.] Order! Order! Hon members, order! Hon van Lingen, I
think we have ruled on that matter so we cannot go back to it.
Continue.
Ms T WANA: Hon Chairperson, lastly as I was explaining this sub-unit
of Ipid. What I can suggest to the department is that there should
be more vigilance in terms of crime intelligence. What is taking
place in Grabouw today means that the Western Cape is not as they
said they are because if they were clever enough, they will try to
prevent that. They are always saying that they are the best in terms
of managing issues but today Grabouw is on fire and our own people
are going to defend that irrespective of colour.
Secondly, I wanted to say to our people that there was a
representation by Ipid that there is an unmandated instruction into
the investigation of the Marikana issue and the cost was
approximately R5 million. The committee made recommendations that
they should add all the cost incurred and submit to the Treasury so
that we can close this file. Although the file has been closed,
there are people who are trying to get political ...
[Interjections.] Okay. Because I was saying ...
10 MAY 2016
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... bantu bakuthi aba bantu batsha babesuka apha ekhaya – ingada
ayilityeleli ngabubele ikhaya lalo ibisuka kulo. Mandiyithethe into
yokuba, ... [... my compatriots, these young people comes from our
organisation, the wildcat does not visit the home it left with a
good heart. Let me say that ...]
... as the ANC, we have made a difference in terms of security and
even in this current Limpopo situation, they are arresting the
police. Secondly,...
... sonke silapha. [...all of us are here.]
I am saying to our police force, be strong because we are going for
local government elections and as a result, your own sons are
threatening us with bullets. Be strong as you usually are because in
the local government elections it‘s where we are going to win.
Sishota ngani. [You are the missing one.]
These minority parties - I am sure that they present their behaviour
every day when we stand here, ever since I came here in 2014, they
never supported the budget but every day they submit their claims.
What hypocrisy! Thank you. ANC lives.
MS s M MOKABA-PUKWANA: (MEC - TRANSPORT, SAFETY, SECURITY & LIASON):
Chairperson, let us join hands together to win the war against crime
and corruption. We need to build a united front to help and protect
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communities. The National Development Plan, NDP, advocates a
community-centred policing with sustained community participation
and support.
As a caring government, we must truly represent the aspirations of
our people as codified in the Freedom Charter, the South African
Constitution of 1996 and other conventions. To ensure this, as
politicians in this House, we may differ on certain issues, but our
ultimate aim of improving the lives of our people should be the
ultimate purpose that brings us together.
Hon Minister, Nkosinathi Nhleko, hon members ... [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I am challenging you ...
Ndzi kombela ku lulamisa swin‘wana lahaya ka nomboro ya ntlhanu.
Lahaya va nga tsala muchaviseki Mokaba-Pukwana, matsalelo lawaya ya
―safety, security, liaison‖ a hi wona. Matsalelo lawa a ma fanele ku
lulamisiwa leswaku ku tsariwa hi ndlela leyi nga fanela. Xana mi nga
swi lulamisa sweswi? Xana mi swi twisisile leswaku ndzi vula yini.
(Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)
[Can I please correct something there at number five? Where there is
hon Mokaba-Pukwana, the manner or style for ―safety, security,
liaison‖ is incorrect. The form in which this is written needs to be
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corrected so that it conforms to the formal style. Can you be able
to correct it now? Do you understand what I mean?]
The spelling mistake there.
Ms M MOKABA-PUKWANA (MEC - TRANSPORT, SAFETY, SECURITY & LIASON):
... the members of the executive councils, MECs present here, the
Acting National Police Commissioner, Lieutenant General, Phahlane,
the Head of Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI,
General Ntlemeza, the Acting Executive Director of Independent
Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, Mr Kgamanyana, the Acting
Secretariat, the Director and Chairperson of Private Security
Industry Regulatory Authority, PSIRA, Board, members of the SA
Police Services, and esteemed guests, I greet you.
I don‘t have time for this. What is going on in Vuwani, Limpopo, is
something we all condemn in strongest terms. It will never be
allowed that schools be burnt whenever residents are not satisfied
with a particular government decision. This government has laid down
processes to be followed whenever there are dissatisfactions
emanating from a particular decision. However, the fact that there
are suspects arrested gives hope in that those behind the burning of
schools will face full might of the law. Out of the twenty three
suspects apprehended, eleven appeared in the Malamulela court on
Monday and the matter was postponed to 16 May for formal bail
10 MAY 2016
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application. The remaining twelve appeared yesterday at the
Thohoyandou court.
Prior to the recent unrest in Vuwani, our premier, comrade Stanley
Chupu Mathabatha, established a Priority Committee on Protest
Action. The Committee comprises of the Departments of Safety,
Security as the coordinator, the Department of Education, the
Department of Co-operative Governance, Human Settlement and
Traditional Affairs, the South African Local Government Association,
Salga, the SA Police Services, the Department of Rural Development
and Land Reform, the Department of Home Affairs, the State Security
and both the district and the provincial House of Traditional
Leaders.
The main purpose of this committee was to empower all the
stakeholders dealing with protests through information sharing on
how best to deal with protests of this nature. The focus is how to
curb such protests turning into violence and lawlessness as well as
opening an open dialogue with aggrieved parties.
As the Limpopo province, we have a high percentage of youth making
up our population. This high young population is active in shaping
the socioeconomic status of the provincial economy. In that regard,
over the weekend, we held a successful Youth Crime Prevention Summit
at Polokwane. Some of the issues emphasised at the summit, was a
need for ongoing consultative sessions with the youth in the five
Limpopo districts. The importance of demarcation as a planning tool
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for service delivery and elections was also highlighted. These, and
others, are all aimed at ensuring a safe and secure - the social
order in Limpopo.
Hon Minister, I fully agree, that easy access to alcohol and drugs
contribute to high social crimes. To attest to that, in the previous
year we inspected a total of 16 849 liquor outlets and among items
confiscated were: 3,996 847 grams of dagga; 2,562 grams of cocaine;
22 grams of rock; 50 million grams of Nyaope.
It is disturbing to note that in all these operations, young people
who find themselves on the wrong side of the law are leading the
pack. It is just unfortunate that when the law take its course, our
youth takes the rap. Leaving thousands of young people with criminal
records, that bars them from securing meaningful job opportunities
in the market.
However, as a measure of engaging our youth to be part of their
safer and secure communities, we have successfully incorporated them
in our Community Policing Forums, CPFs, as well as Community Safety
Forums, CSFs. With regard to the CPFs and CSFs, let it be noted that
we are the first province to pay stipends to these volunteers.
During 2015-16, our CPFs and CSFs were receiving stipends and
sitting allowances as per crime prevention through environmental
design and the provincial CPF policy. That we did in support of the
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Limpopo Development Plan's responsibility to ensure that levels of
serious and violent crimes are drastically reduced.
This is not a payment but an appreciation for volunteering to spend
time and own resources to ensure that your communities feel safe and
secured at all times. We are basically reimbursing volunteers the
costs incurred during their crime prevention operations.
As an additional incentive, an amount of R4,5 million has been
secured to resource CPFs and CSFs operations. The end-product
continues to be better safety and security through improved policecommunity relations that has proved to be effective in managing
crime and lawlessness.
It has become a trend in our communities that criminal activities
escalate during Easter and Festive season holidays. Unfortunately,
our roads are used to perpetuate these criminalities and some of our
motorists are part of these syndicates. As a way of reducing the
transportation of stolen and unaccounted goods through our public
roads, seen through overloaded vehicles during this period, we have
since launched the Malaisha Operation programme.
Through this operation, we prevent stolen goods from crossing the
border and also curb the overloading of vehicles along the main
roads towards our cross-border posts. Major successes registered
through these operation include the confiscation of more than 8,421
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919 cartons of illegal cigarettes valued at R66,813 455. Over 140
vehicles were detained and most of them were used to smuggle goods
in and out of the country. Many of these goods did not comply with
the Second-Hand Goods Act.
In this financial year, we are launching a new pilot project on
Young Civilians on Patrol as a volunteer programme. The programme
will be operationalised through the Medium-Term Expenditure
Framework, MTSF, period. Young people linked to the CPFs in all
police stations and CSFs in all local municipalities will take part
in this project.
The intention of the programme is to equip the young people with the
necessary skills for patrolling our streets with the police. We
believe that the initiative will be building safer communities in
line with the NDP. We also aim to ensure the implementation of
integrated approach towards fighting crime, utilising all the
available crime fighting agencies within our communities.
Recent statistic reports on the negative and discouraging state of
youth in South Africa. As Limpopo, to counteract these sad
realities, we are keeping our youth busy with activities aimed at
promoting community safety and security. We also have programmes run
by both the CPF's and CFS's, that discourage the youth from engaging
in alcohol and drug abuses that lead to involvement in criminal
activities.
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Ladies and gentlemen; let me leave you with a scripture from the
book of 1 Corinthians 1:10 which read thus:
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you
say and that there be no divisions amongst you, but that you are
perfectly united in mind and thoughts. [Time expired.] Thank you
very much.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, hon Minister and members of the police
force, let me greet you. The United Democratic Movement supports the
budget. On 29 September 2015, Minister, you released crime
statistics covering the period of the financial year 2014-15. The
report revealed that an estimated 1,8 million crimes were reported
during that period. These statistics paint a dismal picture in terms
of personal security as contact crimes increased by 0,9%. These
include crimes like murder, attempted murder and robbery. This is
disturbing since they show a reversal of the good that has been done
since the advent of democracy.
Although there was a decrease on sexual offences, it has to be
noted, that statistics in this area are often complicated as the
number of victims who report is notoriously unreliable. Indeed as
emphasised, these statistics demand responses not only from the
police, but also from the public who have a great role to play in
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solving crimes. In this regard, the United Democratic Movement
suggest: That environments which are conducive to alternative forms
of conflict resolution and to the restoration of personal and social
morality be created by both police and communities, that good
strategies, judicious use of crime intelligence and specialised
agencies should be used and be able to reduce crimes in particular
those related to organised groups.
That greater political will, wiser leadership and the promotion of
more strategic policies and resource allocation be provided as
part of the solution. All South Africans - but especially those who
are poor and vulnerable - deserve to know that they have a
reasonable security and public safety. Many police officers are
working under stressful conditions with no support mechanisms. Some
are reported to be resisting attending counselling fearing that if
they are diagnosed with certain conditions, such may make it
difficult to get upwards mobility at work. One of the things that
the department needs to priorities is the implementation of a
doctrine that ensures that our police service functions according to
a set of rules that are in line with the values enshrined in our
Constitution.
Related to this, is a concerted mobilisation of communities so that
the relations between the police and communities is the one that
enhances the service and ensure maximum security of the citizens.
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The morale and discipline of some of the police officers in some
police stations leaves much to be desired. This is coupled with the
conditions under which these officers are expected to deliver
service as well as their attitude towards the servicing the
citizens. Some police stations – especially in the rural areas remains with no tools for operation, such as a mere photocopying
equipment, paper, ink and others, let alone long queues that are not
attended.
The service in these stations does not inspire confidence in the
police. Living conditions of rural police stations as well as the
deteriorating infrastructure are in bad state. Worse of all, some of
these infrastructures lease from private sector, and the government
is paying huge monies for that, but are in a bad state. To mention
but one, the Savoy complex in Mthatha - where the department is
paying millions – the infrastructure is not worth it at all.
Hon Minister, the UDM is concerned about the killing of police in
line of duty. We condemn these killings and call on our communities
to respect our police officers and we call on the community to
respect the law and assist in ensuring that those culprits are
brought to book. The instability within the Independent Police
Investigative Directorate undermines the strategic objectives for
which that directorate was established. The Minister must ensure
that there is stability in that directory.
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Finally, we call on the department to assist police widows
especially those whose husbands are murdered and those police who
are on pension. Some of them wait for years to get their pensions
yet they need those monies urgently. We call on the police to assist
them. Finally, we applaud the work done by The Hawks, but we are
concerned about the gang related crimes in South Africa. I repeat
myself, I am talking about South Africa, I am not talking about any
provinces, I am talking about South Africa. These crimes are too
high. Small kids are being killed daily, please do something about
that. I thank you.
Mr M B NTULI (KZN): The Chairperson, hon Ministers present, hon
members and esteemed guests, may I from the outset offer an apology
for Mr Mcunu, the MEC for Transport and Community Safety and Liaison
in KZN, who is still in bereavement. It is indeed an honour for me
to join you in this debate on Police budget that was eloquently
presented by the Minister of Police, the hon Nathi Nhleko, on
21 April 2016.
I rise to share sentiments with hon Minister that our men and women
in blue work very hard to protect our communities and to ensure that
South Africans are able to work in a peaceful and safe environment.
They do this with a clear understanding that the fight against crime
still remains the key priority of the government and it also
features prominently in the government blueprint, the National
Development Plan, NDP. The NDP is clear that having a safe
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environment is a precondition for an economically sound South
Africa.
The NDP stipulates and I quote:
When people feel unsafe it makes it harder for them to develop
their capabilities, pursue their personal goals and to take part
in social and economic activity. To achieve the goals set out in
this plan, NDP, South Africans need to feel safe everywhere and
have confidence in the criminal justice system to protect them
and to act swiftly and effectively when required to do so.
Police are therefore, the agents and activists in the struggle to
ensure that our communities remain safe and protected. To do this,
they need all our support and backing. Just to reflect on how hard
our police work, I wish to share with this august House the
statistics of arrests made by police in KwaZulu-Natal in the recent
past financial years.
In the 2014-15 financial year, police arrested 162 131 people. In
2009-2010 financial year, a total of 209 217 arrests were made in
KwaZulu-Natal; 229 426 in the period 2010 to 2011; 280 641 in the
period 2011 to 2012; and in the period 2012 to 2013 the total number
of arrests was 273 254. During 2013-14 financial year, a total of
255 136 arrests were effected.
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The figures of arrests I have alluded to, paints a disturbing
picture which means that our communities produce a lot of criminals.
On the other hand, it means our police work very hard and they need
support from all of us.
However, we need to remain very concerned with the high number of
withdrawals and the low number of convictions compared to the number
of arrests made. Clearly, this highlights the need for closer
monitoring to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the
police, especially on the investigation side.
In the last financial year, we had undertaken to implement a pilot
project to evaluate the efficiency and effectiveness of detective
services with reference to closed case dockets. This project
entailed the auditing of 50 closed dockets identified by the
department in respect of the crime categories of property and drugrelated crimes, contact crimes and sexual offences.
We approached the provincial commissioner in respect of the
initiation of the pilot project on 31 July 2015, who referred the
matter to the National Commissioner of Police. The Acting National
Commissioner of Police responded in a letter dated 8 December 2015
by giving partial authority for this project.
We accepted the approach proposed by the Acting National
Commissioner of Police subject to a request for further engagement
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on the methodology for future detection service delivery monitoring
and evaluation. Pending this engagement, the department has
identified 50 dockets for auditing and the compilations of the
audits reports are underway.
There has been confusion among certain quarters in respect of the
objective of this project. It is therefore important to reiterate
that this project seeks to evaluate the efficiency and effectiveness
of the work of police detectives and not the National Prosecuting
Authority. The exercise is intended to address the challenge of
deficient case dockets being submitted to the National Prosecuting
Authority, resulting in cases not being prosecuted at all or
successfully.
We are concerned about the delays in proceeding with this very
important project to improve the criminal justice system.
Honourable members, I wish to also refer to the findings of the
research project on police allocation and deployment patterns in
KZN. This research project looked at the effectiveness of police
deployment practices and available resources in terms of the SAPS
Resource Allocation Guidelines.
We remain concerned about the finding of this research, which
indicates a sad state of affairs with regard to the police personnel
deployed in KZN. Just to recap on this research, the United Nations
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sets a standard of a police to population ratio of 1:400 police
officers. In South Africa the overall police to population ratio
compares favourably with international standards at 1:346.
However, a total of 118 police stations, or 64% of KZN stations,
have police to population ratios of 1:500, with 45% of these having
ratios of above 1:700. Given its demographics and difficult terrain,
KZN would appear to have a shortage of police personnel. This has a
major impact on visible policing and service at the crime service
centres. There are indications that Crime Intelligence and
Detectives may also have an acute shortage of personnel.
In this financial year, we will conduct a detailed comparison of the
demographics, topography and the number of police deployed in KZN
when compared to other provinces. This will allow us to advocate for
concrete measures to be taken to address problems of policing in the
province.
In this address, I reflected on the good work done by our police
against criminals. But we remain concerned that police have become
targets of criminals, and they are killed and maimed by rampaging
rascals. From April 2014 to 31 March 2015, 14 members in KwaZuluNatal died while in the line of duty. This is indeed a great loss to
the state of KwaZulu-Natal.
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In the year under review, we conducted several awareness campaigns
and prayer meetings to mobilise communities to work with police and
to ensure their safety. Hon members, there is a strong feeling among
our communities that an attack on police should be treated as an
attack against state and therefore, should be regarded as an act of
treason.
In this financial year, KZN will intensify a one-million-signature
campaign against crime on police killings. The progress in reaching
our target with this campaign has been less than expected. We
therefore revised the implementation methodology to include
dialogues, billboards, proximity marketing, social media and radio
as key drivers of the campaign.
In conclusion, we wish to underline that we share this story with
you because we need your support in all our efforts to ensure that
indeed police in KwaZulu-Natal and South Africa live in a safe and
secure environment. I thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): We are now on item number eight and the
hon member Mokwele was ordered to leave the House. I did not receive
any arrangement from the Acting Chief Whip of the Council because I
was supposed to hear from him. On that note I shall now call on the
hon M Khawula from the IFP. Hon Mtileni, I can just see you pointing
somewhere, where I don‘t even understand. What is the problem, sir?
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Mr V E MTILENI: Hon House Chair, arrangements have been made that Dr
Vawda will speak on behalf of hon Mokwele.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Ok. Thank you very much for that
information, but you are not the Chief Whip or the Acting Chief Whip
of this Council. So, hon Khawula I am going to allow you to
continue.
Mr V E MTILENI: I was going to speak after hon Khawula.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, you have forfeited your
space. We are now on item number nine and we are continuing.
Mr V E MTILENI: Ok.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Next time make sure that you do the
necessary arrangements on time. Thanks.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, this debate takes
place after one has recently read of a cruel some incident of an
alleged rape of a woman suspect allegedly by a police officer at
Inanda Police Station. It is alleged that this incident took place
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right in front of other police officers, including a female police
officer. There have been numerous other incidents of police abuse of
their office including attacks on citizens in Bushbuckridge, Msinga,
KwaMashu, and other areas. This reckless abuse of power continues to
be an issue in the ranks of our police officers in the country.
One admits that it is not all our police officers who are guilty of
human rights abuses. Many of our men and women in blue are
committed, dedicated and respect the rule of law, but the few that
become rotten potatoes, if no visible remedial and corrective
actions is taken, the conclusion is that both the Independent Police
Investigative Directorate, Ipid, and the department are reluctant to
take action against their colleagues. The IFP is pleading with the
hon Minister that police officers who break the law must be brought
to book.
Effective policing has continued to evade the rural communities of
our country because of the mislocating of police stations in our
country. Most of police stations are located in the cities and
towns, but to also provide the service to rural communities and
townships far away. We once more appeal to the department to
prioritise building police stations in rural areas. When one moves
around, noticeable is the fact that it is police stations that
provide police services to rural areas which suffer understaffing,
which suffer poor resources and poor policing infrastructure.
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The IFP has always objected to the appointment of civilian National
Police Commissioners. After the suspension of Commissioner Phiyega,
we want to commend the department for appointing a career police
officer as Acting National Police Commissioner. This is what we need
if we are serious about keeping South Africa safe.
The department must prioritise the empowerment of the investigating
officers in the department. Many at time suspects get away on issues
of technicalities because of nonprofessionalism in investigations.
In order to have a strong justice system, investigating officers are
an important stakeholder. The collective or joint statement publicly
made by the provincial commissioner in support of the National
Commissioner when she was on the verge of suspension cannot pass
unchallenged. It was a very unfortunate and embarrassing statement
close to mutiny or defiance.
Police officers have taken an oath of service and loyalty to the
government of the day, not to an individual. Therefore, police
officers are loyal to the state. Today, Minister they serve the ANC
government; tomorrow they will serve the IFP government because
their loyalty is to the state.
Community Police Forums are collapsing in the country because of
lack of resources. As responsible leaders, we need to be encouraging
communities also play a role and participate in efforts to combat
crime in our country. But, how does this happen effectively when
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resources to assist are not provided? It is easier for communities
in the urban areas to participate in programmes because of the
economy and topography. In the same vein the economy and topography
of rural areas makes participation extremely difficult if there is
no assistance provided.
This House has spoken a lot about respect and ubuntu today. It is
unfortunate that I have to address these two when in this very House
there is an increase levels of lack of respect and ubuntu. Be that
as it may, hon Minister, what I am saying is that harassment and
ill-treatment of citizens still continues in some police stations
when people go there to report incidents. In this case this
unbecoming conduct does cloud the good work that other police
stations are doing.
For as long as the hon Minister does not clear himself, the Nkandla
saga will continue to hang around him like an albatross. About two
months ago, in this very House, I asked the hon Minster if he still
considered: The chicken run, the swimming pool, the theatre and the
tuck-shop to be security features in Nkandla. This was in view of
the hon President having acceded to consider paying for the extras.
The response from the Minister was that for as long as there was no
literature review on the matter to prove otherwise, he would
continue to stick by his words. Now that the Constitutional Court
has ruled otherwise, is this judgement providing enough literature
review for the Minister to concede?
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The image of South Africa rests very much in the ways South Africans
conduct themselves, and also in the way the police are doing their
work. Respect for the rule of law and maintenance of the rule of law
are important. The police must maintain the rule of law in all
respects. It should not be an easy thinking for anyone to want to
make South Africa a crime capital of the world. I thank you, hon
Chairperson.
Ms M WENGER (WESTERN CAPE: CHAIRPERSON OF COMMUNITY SAFETY):
Chairperson, as representatives of the public, we are judged by our
actions and not merely by our words. Minister Nhleko told the
National Assembly a few weeks ago that South Africans are under the
care and protection of a government that cares. He highlighted
Lavender Hill in Cape Town, a gang-affected community and how
policing there was a model, to be elevated in his police debate
speech.
However, let me tell the Minister about Lavender Hill. Lavender Hill
falls under the Steenberg Police Station, which I went to visit as
part of my oversight responsibilities. The Steenberg Police Station
has 16 less visible police officers than what it did in 2010, and
the station is short of 23 police officers. Officers have been
transferred away from this station by your administration and none
of these transfers have been replaced - none. As a result of the
police shortages, not all the sectors can be patrolled 24 hours a
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day and only two visible police vans are dispatched to two out of
the four sectors at the station. It is a tremendous worry that this
station does not have enough officers to comply with the very basics
of visible policing and the result is that only half of the
residents in this precinct have 24-hour police patrols.
The tragedy is that police resources are not allocated to where
there is a need, because the sector that is neglected, the sector
that does not have 24-hour patrols, is Lavender Hill - the sector
that needs it the most. A 32-year-old mother was shot three times
this weekend while protecting her child in a suspected gang-related
shooting in Lavender Hill. She died. Another woman nearby in
Lavender Hill was also shot and is in hospital recovering. Is this a
government that says that it cares, or is it a government that shows
that it cares?
A government will be judged by what it does and not by what it says.
The Minister in his speech repeated his commitment to better
policing and in particular better visible policing. He spoke about
early intervention and preventing crime, and we know that visible
policing is a crime prevention mechanism. He spoke about the backto-basics approach to policing which are to be applied properly and
consistently. One of the three pillars of this approach is, and I
quote:
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Enhances police visibility, which implies more police officers in
uniform, thereby minimising opportunities to commit crime.
―More police officers‖ he said. ―More police officers‖ he said. The
Minister has not told us what is really in the budget. He said one
thing and budgeted for another, because if we look at the numbers
behind the words, we see something very different. The Minister said
―More police officers‖. I did a snap poll last week; I asked
colleagues and members of the public how many more police officers
our nation will get between now and 2019, over the next three years.
For our whole country, how many officers do you, Chairperson, think
we will receive? I asked each hon member to think of a number. Most
of the people I asked said that crime is a priority and they do not
feel safe.
They said that the population is growing and therefore it follows
logically that the number of police officers should grow as well.
They put these factors together and the answers I got were, 10 000
more officers, 20 000 more officers and in the lowest estimate 5 000
more officers in uniform. But if we look at the police budget,
between now and 2019, South Africa will get a net total of 20 more
officers, not 20 000, but 20.There will be no increase in the next
three years in the number of crime intelligence officers, there will
be no increase for the next three years in the number of visible
police officers. Are these the actions of a government that cares?
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Minister, there is a serious oversight in how you have allocated
this budget. Twenty additional posts over the next three years for
our country are not enough. Far too many South Africans and
foreigners are victim to crime in our country every day and our
communities are not safe — they are not safe enough for you to not
increase the number of police officers. How can the police strategy
rest on pillars which cannot be implemented because there is no
budget for it? How can you tell South Africans that you plan to
enhance police visibility, which implies more police officers when
you know very well that there is no intention of giving South
Africans more police officers for the next three years?
What are you going to tell the residents of Lavender Hill who do not
have police patrolling 24 hours a day? What are you going to tell
the residents of Laingsburg where there is such a severe staffing
crisis that there is only one woman on duty on weekends? What are
you going to tell the residents of Khayelitsha that already have one
of the worst police-population ratios in our province? What are you
going to tell the residents of Nyanga, a place which sadly has a
reputation for being the murder capital of our nation? I stood here
almost exactly two years ago and I said the same thing in this
House. I told the hon members about the resource crisis at the
Nyanga police station.
To her credit, Deputy Minister Sotyu went to Nyanga to see for
herself and said that the station needed more officers urgently.
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But, we got little more than talk. Just last week the Community
Police Forum, CPF, marched to the station to demand more officers
because there are not enough officers to keep the residents of
Nyanga safe and those officers that are serving the station are so
overworked, they cannot be expected to deal with such high levels of
crime on their own.
How do you explain to the residents of Masiphumelele that the
desperately needed satellite police station that was opened with
much fanfare by the Deputy Minister last year has now been withdrawn
— especially during this time of unrest in this community?
Is this a government that cares?
A government will be judged by what it does and not by what it says.
The Minister also said that he wished to allocate additional
resources to the Hawks, with an allocation of R1,4 billion which
will also cater for the re-establishment of specialised units. Is
this enough to properly resource the Hawks as well as the
specialised units, or is this another case of telling us one thing
and budgeting for another?
As my colleague mentioned, since the disbandment of the Scorpions in
January 2009, there has been a 60% decline in a number of arrests
and the conviction rate has fallen by 83% in the last six years. It
is clear that this unit needs beefing up urgently. But, has enough
money been allocated to this unit? The announcement that the
R111 million to the Civilian Secretariat for the Police is welcome
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and we hope that some of these funds will be used for provinces. The
Civilian Secretariat Act was enacted with obligations on provinces
but without any due regard for budget towards provinces to be able
to perform these functions. We trust that this budget will rectify
this.
What we really need is a budget that empowers the police to do their
work for the citizens of this country. This Parliament is the
peoples‘ representative within the state and as Parliament we must
ensure that the police are performing to their very best ability and
with all the tools that they need to deliver safety. We need to
allocate a budget that will do justice to what we want to achieve,
to show that we care and not only say that we care. With a budget
allocation of roughly R80 billion, police management and each and
every police officer have an immense responsibility to deliver to
the citizens of our country.
An immense responsibility to relentlessly uphold the law, maintains
order, prevent crime, and conduct good investigations which lead to
convictions in court. Similarly, the citizens of South Africa have a
responsibility to be law-abiding and to assist and support the
police, because safety is everyone‘s responsibility.
In conclusion, I would like to take the opportunity to say thank you
to the men and women in blue who put words into action, who put
their lives on the line each day for us and who, despite difficult
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circumstances, fight on to make our communities safer. We owe it to
them to not support this budget and ask the Minister and his
department to go back to the drawing board and make a better plan
for our police. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon members, hon Ministers and
generals from the police, it is good to see real policemen again.
Mr Minister, policing is about the safety of real people. I listened
to you very carefully, and I will get to that at a later stage, but
Mr Minister, you seem to be confused. I will deal with that a little
later. It is common knowledge that the Western Cape had to go as far
as appointing a commission of inquiry into the policing needs in
Khayelitsha to try and convince the former national Minister that
the area and its people are severely neglected due to the skewed
allocation of resources by the SAPS leadership.
It was hoped that this would go a long way in showing the SAPS
leadership that this injustice had to be addressed urgently. Instead
of welcoming this initiative and implementing its findings, former
national Minister of Police Nathi Mthethwa first challenged the
setting up of the Khayelitsha Commission and then the findings in
what can only be described as an attempt to prevent proper policing
in areas of the Western Cape most affected by intolerably high
levels of crime. The court ruled in favour of the Premier of the
Western Cape, and her right to appoint such a commission was upheld.
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Despite this ruling, the quality of policing in Khayelitsha and
similar areas has not changed much due to the fact that those police
stations are still not properly resourced.
The Department of Police has adopted a back-to-basics approach in an
attempt to address the current shortcomings of the SAPS and its
inability to bring down stubbornly high crime rates in our country.
My understanding of this approach is that police services are
divided broadly into two focus areas: proactive and reacting
policing.
Proactive policing relates to crime prevention and the main efforts
of any police service should be focused in this area. The view of
the father of modern policing, Sir Robert Peel, was that visible
patrolling is the basis of any crime-prevention strategy. The total
staff complement tasked with this very important duty of crime
prevention through visible policing is only 53% of the South African
Police Service‘s total personnel strength.
Further, the Minister seems confused about the current style of
policing. In the recent past, the style was sector policing. That
was the buzz word a while ago. The approach was implemented over
various financial years at a phenomenal cost to taxpayers. It was
necessary to fund both the personnel and resources needed to roll
out the plan. I think the Minister owes South Africa and all South
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Africans feedback on the results of this costly exercise and whether
it is still the preferred model of policing.
It is not a new revelation to suggest that satellite police stations
need to be built in some affected areas. What indication we don‘t
have is what type of services will be rendered from there. One can
only assume that it will be limited to the very basic services, and,
unfortunately, our people will still have to travel vast distances
to other fully fledged police stations to access important police
services.
Reactive policing, on the other hand, is about the investigation of
crime after a crime was committed. Minister, the Khayelitsha
Commission found successful investigation and prosecution of crime
to be very low. The conviction rate is often as low as only 1%. The
whole spectrum of practical policing is hampered by understaffing,
unskilled personnel, underresourced units and, quite often,
inadequate leadership. Physical resources and mostly a lack thereof
are hampering the police officials in the execution of their duties.
Complaints about transport, accommodation, computer equipment,
cellphones, firearms and uniforms are well-known shortcomings that
always come to the fore as obstacles in the pursuit of excellence in
the SAPS.
Again, too little has been done to put the SAPS back on the road to
recovery. That is why we cannot support this budget. The problem can
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not only be attributed to a lack of funds but, to a large extent,
the policing style adopted, coupled with a dysfunctional organogram
favouring a silo approach. Success will only be possible if this
department‘s management starts to build an integrated, workable
organisation.
The following areas require urgent attention and budget allocations
that make serious interventions possible. Mr Minister, there should
be appropriate and relevant training and logistical support. Good
leadership – we need good leadership, Mr Minister, as well as the
reintroduction of specialised units such as the narcotics bureau,
firearms, and the implementation of the recommendations of both the
Farlam and the Khayelitsha Commissions. Money has to be found, Mr
Minister. In the SAPS, 19,1% of members are employed for
administrative purposes. Do you know how many members that
constitutes? It is more than 35 000 people.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, on a point of order: Will the
member accept a question from me? [Interjections.] Julius.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Motlashuping, let‘s find
out from the hon member whether he is ready to take a question.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, no, I am not going to answer any
question or take ...
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): He is not ready, hon
Motlashuping.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: ... any question from him. Chairperson, he
doesn‘t know anything about policing. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Continue, hon member.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: It is in excess of 35 000 people, and
35 000 people are sitting idly in offices.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Terblanche, please take
your seat. Hon Motlashuping, why are you standing?
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon
member has not looked at my CV, and it is incorrect ...
[Interjections.] ... for him to insinuate that I don‘t know anything
about policing.
An HON MEMBER: You are a whip. You should know the Rules!
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: The fact of the matter is that I know more than
he knows. I was interrogated by him. He was a police officer. I was
interrogated by him. [Interjections.] He knows.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Motlashuping! Hon
Motlashuping, please take your seat. We are not sustaining what you
were saying. Continue, hon Terblanche.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I think the House will excuse me –
you will see that my hair is greying – but I cannot remember that I
ever met him before.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Continue with the debate,
sir. [Laughter.]
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Serious consideration should be given to the
redeployment of a substantial number of these human resources to
other, more critical areas.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon members ... sorry, take
your seat, sir. Perhaps this announcement would help the hon members
to settle down. After the hon member Nhleko, we are going to take a
10-minute break so that you can stretch your legs and go to the
bathroom. Then we come back after 10 minutes and continue the
debate. Hon Faber?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I am quite shocked. The member here was
saying the hon member could not remember the other member because he
was killing them. [Interjections.] To make allegations like that
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against a former police brigadier, I think, and now a Member of
Parliament, I really believe is not honourable or parliamentary.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Order! Order! Hon members,
because of the noise, I cannot even hear what the hon member is
saying. Please allow him to speak. Hon Faber?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I was saying that one of the members here
said very clearly that hon Terblanche would not remember them, as he
was killing them. That is definitely not parliamentary. I think that
is a terrible insinuation to make. I really believe that any
allegations like those against an hon member must definitely be
retracted. He actually owes the hon member an apology.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Thank you, hon Faber.
Unfortunately, I do not even know who I can ask because you just
referred to the ―hon member‖ there. You did not mention the name of
the hon member. I would ask the hon member to conclude. Please
conclude, sir.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, as I said, serious consideration
must be given to redeploy a ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, please take your
seat. I recognise hon Faber and then hon Nthebe.
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Mr W F FABER: Chair, it was very clear. I pointed my finger, like
this, at hon Mthimunye.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, next time, don‘t
point your finger at the hon member. [Interjections.] Your finger
was pointed at the other hon member. Hon Mthimunye, can I check with
you whether you said that?
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, that hon member is ―skelm‖ pointing at me.
[Laughter.] I did not say that. I did not say that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): You did not say that?
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: No.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Alright, take your seat, hon
member. Please conclude. The hon member Nthebe? Sorry, sir.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, through you, as a senior citizen: Will the hon
member take a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me check with the hon
member. Are you ready to take a question?
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, no, I am busy with serious business,
and we can have a chat later. I will invite them over for coffee.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Nthebe, he is not
willing to take a question. Continue.
Mr B G NTHEBE: As senior citizens, we can ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): No, hon Nthebe. We cannot do
that. Continue, sir.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, as I said, serious consideration
must be given to the redeployment of a substantial number of these
people – more than 35 000 – to more critical areas.
It is further suggested that the allocation for the VIP protection
unit must also be scaled down drastically. This allocation must be
realistically aligned with real threats. Savings can be reallocated
to fund other, more important needs such as crime prevention, etc.
Even VIPs guarded by the so-called blue light brigades will have to
make do with more realistic and scaled-down protection. The risks
can be revisited on a regular basis and adjusted when necessary.
Hopefully their own sense of importance will be the only casualties
in this case.
Minister, I come back to you. Earlier, you referred to Abraham
Lincoln. Thank you, Chairperson. I am also done. [Time expired.]
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MR M J MTHETHWA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Minister
Zokwana, hon members and the national commissioner, I rise on behalf
of the ANC and support the two Budget Votes 20 and 23, the
Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, and the SA
Police Service respectively.
Hon Minister and my fellow hon members of the House, it is our view
that there should be no institution that can proclaim itself to be
the questioner and simultaneously, be the executioner. It is
important that institutions that serve our public have the means to
be self-reflexive, so that if there are members who are found to be
wanting and thus unsuitable or have infringed on the law, must be
charged accordingly.
The Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, is an
important office of the Police Service as it ensures that those
tasked with carrying out arrests and bringing criminals to book, are
not themselves criminals. We must support the endeavours of this
institution for it is not that accountability and channels of
recourse are noble and important cause, but that those of us tasked
with the responsibility of public office must be open to scrutiny.
The actions of our police officers must be able to stand up to the
best industry practice, that our officers must know that to have
power is not in itself absolute.
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It goes without saying that it is disturbing to hear of police
officers who assault, rape, rob and kill those they are supposed to
protect. This Manichean notion makes a mockery of the police service
that we are trying to build and the morals that are concomitant with
the role of being an officer of the law.
In one of the incidents, Franziska Blochliger was found robbed,
assaulted and murdered in Tokai, a fairly well-heeled neighbourhood
in the southern suburbs of Cape Town. The suspects that allegedly
perpetrated this heinous crime were caught in a space of about 48
hours.
But there is something that people try to deny every time that the
police are doing their work. It is surprising to hear the DA saying
they don‘t support this budget at the same time they are saying they
are running short of offices. But they don‘t support the budget. I
wonder which budget they will support. Since I came here they never
support any budget. They always deceive South Africans by saying
that they support the South African budget whereas they don‘t. And
they always shine on TV that they are doing something better for
South Africa whereas they don‘t. I want to say that the ANC is
governing South Africa, including the Western Cape - the ANC is
governing corner to corner.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: I am standing on the Rule because the member is
misleading the House. It has recently been proven that 9 out of 10
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top municipality are led by the DA. It has been proven by the
government departments. This is misleading the House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, please take your
seat. That is a point of debate. Continue, hon member.
Mr M J MTHETHWA: It is very important that South Africans must know
the truth. They vote for us to govern the country and deliver
services to the people. When we come up here we turn to be an enemy
of service delivery. We sit here, we insult each other, we deceit
each other, and we don‘t want to contribute positively in order for
us to make it sure that people on the ground are getting ser5vices
as they deserve.
I don‘t want to talk about the EFF because it is something which I
don‘t understand what they want.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, I am referring to my previous point
of order where the member is deliberately misleading the House and
it has been proven that where the DA govern it‘s a top 9 out of 10
municipalities in the Western Cape. Could you please have a ruling
on that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, please, I told
you that that is a point of debate. It‘s not a point of order.
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Ms B ENGELBRECHT: It is not! It is not!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It is, you are debating from
the floor. Please, take your seat, hon, member. Hon member, take
your seat. I have ruled, hon member, take your seat. I did rule, hon
member. I‘m not going to argue with you, hon member, please take
your seat. That is not a point of order. You are debating from the
floor, please take you seat.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, you need to make a ruling because
this is a fact.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member, I have made a
ruling.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, you have not made a ruling.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): I am asking you for the
last time, please take your seat.
Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, I am asking you to make a ruling on a
point, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): I am asking you for the last
time, please take your seat.
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Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, I am asking you to make a ruling on a
point
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon member take your seat.
Mr M J MTHETHWA: Elsewhere in the township of Khayelitsha, Sinoxolo
Mafevuka was found raped and murdered in the communal toilets. It
took the police about 14 days to arrest the suspects. It remains our
trust that challenges such as these should be addressed so that
everybody, regardless of class or race, would receive equal
treatment from our police service. But it took only 14 and this
thing happened at night. Through the work of the police in this
country they were able to apprehend the culprits within 14 days. We
support the work that you are doing in this country to maintain law
and order corner to corner of South Africa including the Western
Cape where people think they are governing alone.
I don‘t want to talk about the EFF because it is nothing. We are
going to the local government elections. As we are going to the
local government elections, don‘t think that to fill the stadium is
the vote, no, that is not a vote. You will see the vote when people
vote in the ballot paper.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon House Chair, It is very concerning that the hon
member from this side is coming to threaten and start to hit the
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member next to me. I don‘t want to be in the middle of the fight
here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Point taken. Hon Mhlanga,
please, don‘t go and threaten hon Mtileni. Hon Mtileni if you want
to speak to hon Mhlanga go that side and do not go next to hon
Smith. They must stop doing that. Continue!
Mr V E MTILENI: You guys always speak the truth. Sometimes when we
speak the truth ... You cannot ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms. M C Dikgale): Hon member, you were
supposed to be standing up stand up and ...
Mr V E MTILENI: You cannot keep on saying law and order, law and
order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mtileni, you know what
you are supposed to do.
Mr V E MTILENI: Me?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Yes, you have to stand
up... [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Ask the Minister of Police. Ask the Minister of
Police.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): You know I did not permit
you to speak. Please, take your seat.
Mr V E MTILENI: Don‘t keep on saying law and order in this country.
There is nothing like that in this country.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Continue hon, Mthethwa
Mr M J MTHETHWA: In this regard, we welcome your efforts to want to
professionalise and demilitarise the service, for a militant police
service has no place under a democratic government. In line with
this thinking, it is not incomprehensible that our police service
should evoke inspiration for the ways our officers carry themselves
while on and off duty. A professional service that is part of the
Batho Pele culture, a professional service that is part of the
community it serves, a service that is integrated within the nodes
of those it serves, such that community members can approach
officers with intelligence about criminal activities.
Communities are important stakeholders, and as such, a police
service that is disconnected from those it serves, will not be
operationally successful. We are frustrated and impatient with
criminals that do not hesitate to shoot and kill police officers, as
recent examples in Khayelitsha and Phillipi have demonstrated. It is
our hope that those who want only to kill officers should face the
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harshest punishment of the law. Equally, our officers should view
the opportunity of working in the service as an act of privilege, as
an enabler of the rule of law, an overseer of order and a guardian
of the vulnerable, young and old.
We note the questions around the pending case of management, and we
shall equally wait to be led in this regard by the Minister.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I would like to know whether the hon
member would like to take a question about the number one suspect is
not... but, 786 charges.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): No, no no, no. Let us check
with him first. Hon Mthethwa, are you ready to take a question?
Mr M J MTHETHWA: He is my neighbour in my house he can come to my
house I will give him an answer. No, you are my neighbour you can
com to my house and I will give you an answer for your question. He
is my neighbour. We are staying together.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chairperson, hon member does not sit down when
you talk and he interrupted you I did not hear you what you are
saying.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Our apology. The hon
Mthethwa is not ready to take your question. Continue, hon Mthethwa.
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Mr M J MTHETHWA: It is surprising because when they were attacked we
protected them. But now he is busy attacking me. [Laughter.]
This is to say, we should not be distracted and instead must focus
on bigger questions of accountability, for it cannot be correct that
there can be an action without a reaction, a cause without an
effect, for if we do not act within the confines of our Constitution
in our different spheres of work, then it means we are no different
from thugs or criminals who think that the world is theirs to
pillage and do as they please.
Lastly, I want to say, hon Minister, we 100% support this budget and
if it is more than that percentage we support it and we will support
it. We see the work that you are doing as the Minister that has been
deployed by the ANC....
... ezobusa kuze kubuye uJesu. [Ihlombe.] [...that will lead until
Jesus comes back.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Minister, my humble apology. I do not mean to
interrupt you, but hon Parkies is watching movies in his thing,
Chairperson.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): It is not parliamentary for
the hon members to watch movies in the House. Hon Parkies, please
stop that. Continue, hon Minister.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, I am exceedingly pleading to
the hon Minister to take a question from me so that he can
incorporate it into his reply.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let us check if the hon
Minister will be ready to take your question.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, can I respond to the debate?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam House Chairperson ...
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, my apologies. There is a
hon member who is standing. Please take your seat hon Minister.
Mr J J W JULIUS: Hon Minister, my humble apologies as I didn‘t mean
to interrupt you. Hon Parkies here is watching movies on his thing
there. [Laughter.]
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): I know it is not parliamentary
for the hon members to watch movies in the House. Hon Parkies,
please stop that. Continue hon Minister.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, hon members ...
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: INTERGOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATIVE
GOVERNMENT (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, my apologies again. There
is another member who is standing. Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, I am exceedingly pleading to
the hon Minister to take a question from me so that when he replies
he can incorporate my question.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Okay, let‘s check if ever the
hon Minister will be ready to take your question.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Please Minister.
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Minister, are you ready to
take a question?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, could I be allowed to respond
to the debate?
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: (Ms M C Dikgale): Hon Mpambo, the Minister is not
ready to take your question.
10 MAY 2016
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank You very much for the inputs and
suggestions that have been made in the debate. I would specifically
like to thank the Chairperson of the Select Committee for the inputs
made. I do want to focus on some few issues though in this
particular response. I need to thank hon member Terblanche for
clarifying Ms Wenger on the question of more police officers on the
ground. The more question talks largely to the issue of deployment
and utilisation of resources, not necessarily the quantity and
volume of members. I want to thank her for that because I think she
made a quite a valuable point around the question of what we do need
to consider when we for instance, deal with the question of the
deployment of members on the ground.
The fact that we were able to secure people in Lavender Hill during
the festive season, is scary and you can‘t ignore that. The fact
that in the northern areas in Port Elizabeth as we speak, people do
say that they are sleeping peacefully because we have been able to
contain gangsterism in that area. So, that‘s scary and it is
government at work. [Applause.] Those are the facts that can‘t be
ignored. It is true that there may be challenges here and there.
Hon Michalakis, I can only advise you that one of the issues that we
should always guard against, is that you and I can disagree on any
matter, but let us be factual at all material times. Let us not
manufacture things. For instance, you say that the appointment of
General Ndlemeza is a political appointee and yet you know very well
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that he has over 30 years experience in the SA Police Service. So,
how political is that? You are on one hand say you need a career
policeman and we give you one and yet you turn around and say it is
a political appointee. It is a political appointee if for instance
people that we perceive as friends are being investigated or if
there are specific cases that are being persuaded and we are
uncomfortable with those things, they become political appointees.
I think that is what we need to desist from because it is incorrect
that there are people that will be subjected, all of us as no one of
us are above the law, and if there are investigations that have got
to be conducted, must be conducted. You can‘t turn around and say I
happen to be so and so, I shouldn‘t be subjected to investigations
because that is a recipe for disaster in our democracy and
destabilising of our society. So, that‘s one particular problem.
You say I have been to overseas quite regularly. Now, let me tell
you an honest fact, I‘ve been to overseas in March ...
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Can I request the hon Minister
to address the members through the Chair?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Okay, I am sorry hon Chair. [Interjections.]
Through you Chair, it is factually incorrect to say I‘ve spent so
much time overseas. Factually, in 2016, I‘ve been abroad only twice
now. In a sense, one is in March and the last one was basically now
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recently. You seem to be thinking that because you saw somebody else
who may probably look like me and you thought it was me, I don‘t
know. It can‘t be correct.
I do think hon members and hon Chair that key issues that have been
raised are issues that all of us are making an effort towards
addressing. But you can‘t stand here for instance, and demonstrate a
schizophrenic kind of approach. You are making demands about issues
of safety and security and what the police should do and so forth,
on the one hand you don‘t support the Budget Vote. That‘s
schizophrenic because you don‘t know what exactly you want. I think
we should desist from such kind of approach because that is not to
the benefit of our society at all. The fact of the matter is that as
and when we continue to conduct and do our work insofar as policing
is concerned, there shall always be challenges and we must address
those particular challenges.
There is a statistic that has been thrown in here – 60% decline in
arrests. We stand here and tell you that in Gauteng alone, 21 drug
laboratories have been closed down and we give you figures about
people that have been arrested and taken to whatever. Where is the
decline?
I am then saying in our eagerness to be oppositional let us be
factual though because we can‘t just simply begin to manufacture
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things in a manner in which we think will only benefit us from a
narrow party political point of view.
Let me leave it at that Chairperson and hon members.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M C Dikgale): Let me take this opportunity and
thank the Minister for availing himself to this debate and also to
announce to hon members that we will have a 10 minutes break.
Please, all of you must come back including hon Mtileni.
Debate concluded.
Business suspended at 20:19 and resumed at 20:34.
DEBATE: OUTCOMES OF THE REPORT BACK SESSION: TAKING PARLIAMENT TO
THE PEOPLE IN EDEN DISTRICT MUNICIPALITY, WESTERN CAPE: TOGETHER
MAKING SERVICE DELIVERY WORK FOR OUR PEOPLE
Ms T R MODISE: Hon House Chairperson, hon members, ladies and
gentlemen. In opening up the debate today on the report back session
on the programme of taking Parliament to the Eden District which
took place from 18 to 20 April 2016 we note that our Constitution as
on 8 May has travelled 20 years since it was adopted in 1996. It is
thus fitting that we engage in a debate about an activity that is a
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demonstration of how we must continue to fulfil the provisions of
the Constitution as in this case where we facilitated public
involvement.
As you know, one of the priorities of the Fifth Parliament is the
enhancement of public involvement and public participation. This is
in fact what we must do in terms of the Constitution because we are
required to provide for meaningful involvement of our people in the
legislative and other sectors. Parliament is therefore placed in the
core of public discourse through the creation of platforms for
engagement with the public and sectors of society, particularly the
marginalised.
The Taking Parliament to the People programme is an instrument for
this House to engage with the people; it allows us to have a say in
this House on how people have a say in the issues of governance in
this country. The advantage of the programme is that it involves
participation of the three spheres of government; this is part of
our contribution towards promoting co-operative governance. The
programme must assist us to get a better understanding of the
challenges that our people face in the different corners of our
different provinces. It places us in good stead as a national forum
for the debate of the provincial issues.
Having being on the ground listening to the people as a collective
of this House, hearing the same stories at the same time, responding
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to the executive at the same time, this programme, if nothing else
fails, is the glue that must hold us all together to hold the
executive to account at the same time. Therefore, for me a programme
like Taking Parliament to the People can only have one priority and
it is to place the ordinary South African first. It is not for me to
remember that in 1976 I joined the ANC because that is immaterial
when I am in this House. It is to listen to the responses I get when
people ask my executive, the government. It is to look at the
quality of the services that were committed to the people. It is to
look at those things which we have left hanging in Eden, follow them
up, ensure that every select committee as well as the portfolio
committees of the provincial legislature follow up and we get
responses on behalf of the people.
It is the people of the Western Cape, it is the people of South
Africa and it is my people. That is what makes Taking Parliament to
the People beautiful because it gives us the opportunity to meet as
legislators and to intermingle as the legislative sector. Different
provinces coming together not only for the other provinces to have
come to the Western Cape to see but to know how good examples have
been set and to carry them home and to also see the bad examples and
then go home and hold their own executive accountable.
I think our decision to go back to Eden was good because the other
alternative would have been to do what we have been doing since the
inception of this programme which is to go there, listen, come back
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here, debate and forget. Once in a while we remember that something
happened in a particular province, we throw in a question but we are
not there physically to examine the quality of the work which people
have told us they have delivered.
So I am very happy that we took the advantage to go, I am also very
happy that not all the issues had been dealt with because that gives
us an opportunity to test the continued commitment by the executive
to deliver without being pushed and maybe all the select committees
will come back to us in the next programme to say that this matter
was not finished and we want to take a field trip to Eden to examine
what is happening there. Therefore the contract is continued between
the people and their Parliament.
It is important that we keep the constant flow of information
between ourselves, the legislature and the people and that we do not
see it as a once off. It is also important, and I want to thank all
the leaders, because we also said that we want to review the form on
content. It would be important for us as the NCOP to come back and
say whether we agree that the next Taking Parliament to the People
should be issue based. We have been throwing hints to hon members
that we want to go to the Eastern Cape on education, not to be all
over the show but to focus on education. We need to focused, come
back and say that this is our diagnosis, these are the remedies that
we recommend and this is the commitment that we have received.
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We want to go to the North West and say why the roads and water are
continually a problem. That way then it is focused, you are not all
over the show and then you can leave all the other matters to the
ordinary oversight mechanisms of Parliament to fall in place. I
think that overall we had the opportunity to unite as the NCOP, to
listen to our people but I think what made me more grateful was that
the NCOP managed, at least in the eyes of the public, to stand
together as public representatives.
Hon members, we know that there are still issues in Hessequa, in
Mossel Bay , in Knysna and in George. We also know that all of us
across the board are concerned about the wellbeing of the Oudtshoorn
Municipality and we must keep an eye on that. But we must also be
able to appreciate that we have started a report back session and we
must continue to do so. We must also say that we do expect that the
provincial speakers who have been given copies of our move towards
the new form of the Taking Parliament to the People will again
converge with us as the NCOP when we finalise how we will deal with
it in future.
I am aware Chairperson that - one hon member has already told me it
is past his bedtime, I am also aware that hon members will have a
lot of issues to debate but I would like to take this opportunity to
thank the entire executive across the three spheres, those who came
and of course condemn those mayors who dodged. But overall I would
like to thank all the members of the executives in the
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municipalities, provinces and national who gave us their time and
therefore gave our people the time.
I want to also thank you members, those of you who bothered to go,
because not all of us went. I want to say that tomorrow and next
year and the year after, this programme must continue to bring hope
be the glue that will reconcile our members. As I said Chair, I
would welcome to hear the views of the members on the report back
session on the NCOP. I thank you.
Mr J J LONDT: Good evening everybody. Thank you hon Chairperson for
making your speech shorter and sweet and I will try and do mine as
well. Hon members, the idea of Taking Parliament to the People,
TPTTP, was originally met with mixed reactions since its
introduction in 2002 and it has not done justice to the noble idea
of getting Parliament out of its traditional seat, out towards the
people. Since its inception millions have been spent in getting the
NCOP, from Cape Town, to all nine provinces and making sure that
people can participate in it. For the first time ever, and credit
here should go to the Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Thandi Modise,
the abovementioned role-players went back and actually reported back
on the issues that were raised by the members in the communities.
[Applause.]
I am just going to quickly move away from my speech and I want to
say, with the Parliament taking a beating, since the elections in
2014, there has been few people who have actually upheld the dignity
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and decorum of the institution of Parliament and I must say hon
Thandi Modise is one of the few people that have done and because of
her leadership in the NCOP, I think the NCOP is the one House of
Parliament that has since its inceptions, with a few exceptions from
our colleagues in red, kept up the standard of what we expect from a
Parliament. So, from my side, thank you for that. [Applause.] Even
though it took a year for the NCOP to have their feedback, I think
credit – I am going to concur with the hon Chairperson - should go
to all the Ministers, to the provincial government and all the local
councils who have made an effort to get the reports in order so that
we can give feedback to the people in the communities. The decision
to focus on the Western Cape and specifically Eden was originally
met with some scepticism as to why you chose the Western Cape and in
hindsight I must say it was a really good choice. The reason I said
it was a really good choice is that it allowed members of the NCOP
views from across South Africa to actually see the difference
between good and bad governance first hand. [Applause.]
The easiest and best known example that is often used, as to what
good service delivery is, is the City of Cape Town. But the fact of
the matter is that the majority of South Africans do not stay within
the boundaries of metros, they stay outside of the boundaries of the
metros, so you don‘t always compare apples to apples always. So this
TPTTP beginning of last year and this year actually allowed us to
compare apples to apples and it was actually kind of like a study
tour for members of the NCOP, to see what works and what didn‘t work
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and I am just going to touch on a few. The first, obviously and the
Chairperson didn‘t want to mention him by name but it is absolutely
shocking that the Kannaland Municipality‘s mayor didn‘t even
respect, not just this Parliament or the elected officials but his
voters, to attend the meetings and I think that should really be
addressed that mayors can not do that going forward. Originally, the
Oudtshoorn mayor also didn‘t pitch up and we should find ways and we
should discuss that going forward on how we are going to make sure
that those mayors that are elected by their people should actually
be there to be accountable. The trip to Eden also gave us
Oudtshoorn. Now Oudtshoorn is an example of what should not happen
and colleagues we can say what we want but the fold of Oudtshoorn is
there because of a group of ANC councillors and their coalition
partners who didn‘t want to run effective local government and tried
to hold on to power and let this be a warning, leading up to the
local government elections, we can not have that in South Africa.
You win power through the ballot box, you lose power through the
ballot box and you need to respect the choice of the voters and
people in South Africa need to take note of what happened in
Oudtshoorn and think carefully how you, when we come to the 3rd of
August. I also want to say that Oudtshoorn and Kanneland, they are
the two really bad examples but I must say since we had our original
session there and after some initial resistance by the local ANC
councillors, administration finally was put in place in Oudtshoorn
and there you could see, doing the basics right is what works. Local
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government is not rocket science. Do the basics right, don‘t try and
enrich yourself and your friends and you will deliver quality
services to the residents.
Here I must also give credit the five neighbouring DA
municipalities, who after administration took effect, went, out of
their own cognisance and helped jumpstart this basic service
delivery in Oudtshoorn. So Bitou, Knysna, George, Mossel Bay and
Hessequa, they assisted their neighbours because it is not just
looking after my own area because if an entire district is well
functioning, the economy will grow in the entire district but if one
pulls you down the entire district will be pulled down. Chairperson,
I trust I can take a few minutes of the Chairperson that she didn‘t
use. [Interjection.] Ja, I need to cut out a few now here.
Colleagues, there are good stories to tell as well going back home
... [Interjections.]
AN HON MEMBER: ... [Inaudible.] Jacob Zuma.
Mr J J LONDT: ... and I hope you are going back and tell the good
stories of the DA-run municipalities. I am just going to quickly, we
went to Hessequa. According to a report by Good Governance Africa
Agency, was rewarded as the 2nd best run municipality in South
Africa. There are five performance indicators that they looked at,
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they were only beaten by one other municipality and that was another
DA-run municipality, their neighbour, Swellendam. In addition to
this they were recently acknowledged as the best performing
municipality in South Africa by the Ratings Africa's Municipal
Financial Stability Index. In George, George is a good example where
quality local government take hands with provincial government as
well as national and they rolled out a fully integrated public
transport service, one that actually works and Port Elizabeth,
Nelson Mandela Bay, take note, your public transport network can
also work if you vote in a DA government. Just go and look at what
happened in George, how to roll out a transport network and you can
have the same, by just voting in the right people there. Mossel Bay
and George achieved clean audits in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015. Why is
awarding clean audits so important?
AN HON MEMBER: Londt.
Mr J J LONDT: If you want to ask a question please stand up and ask.
A clean audit shows that the taxpayers put in your care, you
actually look after it.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, I have a point of order. Hon
Londt, can I ask you a question, through you Chair?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Londt, are you ready to take
a question?
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Mr J J LONDT: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, you can ask your question
hon Motlashuping.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Are you aware that the municipalities that you
have just mentioned, Swellendam, Oudtshoorn, national government
intervened to make that government run and some of the individuals
who made those administrative ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ask the question hon
Motlashuping.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, no, I am making also a comment.
Mr J J LONDT: No, but it is question ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ask a question.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: But you know that national government
intervened.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you hon Motlashuping.
Order members!
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Mr J J LONDT: I am so glad that this member raised this because yes
I do know that national government together with provincial
government intervened in the Oudtshoorn municipality where the ANC
messed up. [Interjections.] [Applause.] The ANC and their coalition
partners ran Oudtshoorn into the ground. They had a surplus of funds
in their bank account and after the ANC and their and their
coalition partners had their hands on that, they awarded contracts
to friends and families, didn‘t care about service delivery, they
ran the municipality into the ground. The infrastructure
disintegrated in front of our eyes. There was refuse that had not
been removed or taken away in Oudtshoorn. There was sewerage running
into the rivers, negatively affecting the health of voters and
negatively affecting the economy and that was because of ANC
government failure. So yes, it is supposed that national government
should intervene where their own party messes up. Hon Chair didn‘t
give me enough time but with that I will finish off. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Mr E MAKUE: Hon House Chair, hon Chairperson of the NCOP, the Salga
representative that is with us, and hon members from provincial
governments, the NCOP mandate and responsibility of Taking
Parliament to the People is huge and should never be taken lightly.
It is incorrect to interpret this responsibility as an opportunity
for point scoring. The exercise is a great opportunity to engage, as
Parliament, with ordinary people and to hear how they experience
government.
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For many community members of the Eden District Municipality, our
visit is a rare opportunity to speak directly to their government
leaders and, more importantly, to have exchanges with all three
spheres of government at the same time. It is therefore appropriate
that we acknowledge and commend those government leaders from the
district and local municipalities, as well as leaders from the
provincial government, for their presence, co-operation and support.
There is definitely much room for improvement in our
intragovernmental co-operation across the three spheres of
government. The co-operation of municipal leaders, especially mayors
and councillors, still leaves much to be desired.
In the group that I had the honour of leading, the DA co-leader
refused to accept his responsibility. More disappointing was the
lack of co-operation from the Mossel Bay Mayor, and the absence of
some local councillors. Fortunately, this did not deter other
members of our multi-party team from doing our work and achieving
excellent results. The co-operation and support of two MECs, the
honourable Madikizela and the honourable Fritz, was beyond reproach.
We can also say the same about other honourable members from the
provincial government.
If the objective of this mission was to perform our governmental
responsibility of engaging with the people, the public meeting we
had was an embarrassment. This was due to the absence of certain
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important political leaders, particularly from the Office of the
Mayor. These leaders missed a wonderful opportunity to enhance the
confidence of ordinary community members in their elected political
leaders.
More than three quarters of the comments and questions raised during
the public meeting were about jobs. It is foolish to place the blame
on one party - the ANC - for the creation of jobs. Promises that are
made during the upcoming local government elections must be
realistic and achievable. It is irresponsible of parties to offer
people jobs when they know that they are unable to meet this
promise. As the ruling party and leaders of this democracy, we, in
the ANC, are painfully aware of the contemporary economic
constraints and their impact on sustainable jobs – also in the Eden
District Municipality.
Our team that visited the Mossel Bay Local Municipality visited six
sites. At the Site 3304 Housing Project, we were disappointed that
our recommendation for the project to be stopped was ignored.
Instead, underground infrastructure had been laid and the location
of the site rationalised by some engineers. All delegation members,
including those of the DA, requested that the reports in support of
the use of the site be made available to the NCOP. It just did not
make sense to us that houses could be constructed at such an incline
on a hill.
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Little progress has been made on the Khayelitsha Housing Project,
where the condition of the houses was a major concern. The
provincial MEC for Human Settlements shared the interventions made
by his office and the causes for delays in repairs. Ongoing
interventions, he emphasised, will be prioritised. We welcome that
because it is an outcome of our engagement of members of the NCOP
that brings about that difference to the people.
The principal of Cecelia Crèche, in KwaNonqaba, informed the
visiting delegation about the commendable progress arising from her
own undertakings. Prevailing conditions are unhygienic, unhealthy
and a serious threat to the wellbeing of the children attending this
crèche in a shack. Having a clean audit is not going to change the
conditions for the children in that crèche. The money must be spent
where there are people deserving of public support. [Applause.] The
significance of our visit became apparent when the provincial MEC
for Social Development committed his office to speedily addressing
the legion of challenges confronting this crèche that takes care of
our children.
Before visiting the Beehive site at Erf 6412 in D‘Almeida, we were
reliably informed that construction of sanitation facilities,
promised a year ago, only started a few days before our visit. We
are happy that it started because we were there and we put pressure
on the local authority to deliver. We witnessed this when we visited
the site and received praise from the entrepreneurs for the NCOP
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visit and interventions. Conditions around the site remain
unchanged, though a promise was made by the Mossel Bay Local
Municipality to lay paving that would prevent the dust presently
creating inconvenience for the traders.
As we are all aware, Thusong centres offer inexplicable relief for
communities to enjoy social services. Thus, our visit to the
KwaNonqaba Thusong Centre proved to us that, even in that community,
Thusong centres are no exception. They are responsive to the social
needs of our people.
The matter pertaining to computers and internet facilities in the
local library, we are glad to report, has been resolved. However,
the working environment and tools of the trade for the social
workers remained unresolved. In addition, the MEC for Social
Development in the province said it is unacceptable for social
workers to be expected to do their work without support from their
political heads after promises that such support would be given.
For the community of Power Town, our visit offered little relief.
None of the recommendations raised during our last visit has
received attention. Instead, the Mossel Bay Local Municipality
indicated that a site in Sonskynvallei has been identified for
relocation. Community leaders and the vast majority of community
members disagree with the mayor‘s assertion that Sonskynvallei is a
suitable option. Reasons for the removal of this community are
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contradicted by ―proper houses‖ erected close to the site from where
they are being removed. Why remove some and build houses for others
close by? I won‘t play the black-and-white trick, but we know that
that‘s what‘s happening there.
Our team deemed it important to attach clear timeframes to fulfil
the promises on all six above-mentioned projects. These timeframes
have been captured in the team report. It is, indeed, possible that,
together, we can make service delivery work for our people, as per
the slogan. In addition, together, we can take South Africa forward.
Let us stop the petty politicking and draw the experience from this
visit to the Eden District Municipality that, at least, we can work
together. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Mr D T DITHEBE: Thank you Chairperson, hon Chairperson of the NCOP,
hon Minister Zokwana, hon Members of Parliament, MPs and Members of
Provincial Legislatures, MPLs, Chief Whip of the NCOP, permanent and
special delegates, compañeros (comrades),
Hon Chair, public participation and accountability are the
constitutional and legislative obligations, and imperatives that
promote and consolidate our democratic order and establishment. They
give credence and fulfil the aspirations contained in the Freedom
Charter, namely that the people shall govern and that no government
can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of the
people.
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Hon Chairperson, let me first applaud the hon Chairperson of the
NCOP for defining what is meant by Taking Parliament to the People
and defining the importance of the three spheres of governance. Hon
Chairperson, when we involve the people of Eden District in the
running and managing of their affairs, we are not doing them a
favour but we are advancing one of the noblest objectives of our
struggle, namely that the people should become the centre of their
own liberation and development.
Hon Chair, the NDP 2030 reaffirms the importance and the centrality
of our people in the development and progress in our country; when
it unequivocally stating its efficient statement that South Africa
belongs to its entire people. Once, we uttered the dream of a
rainbow, now we see it and living it.
It does not curve over the sky Chairperson. It is reflected in each
one of us, at home, in the communities of Bitou, of George, of
Hessequa, of Kannaland, of Knysna, Mossel Bay and Oudtshoorn. In the
city and across the land, in an abundance of colour our people in
their grassroots settings are our most valuable assets and our key
drivers in terms of development and progress.
Hon Chairperson, the statement released on the 08 January 2016 by
the ANC National Executive Committee confirmed the fact that the
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ANC-led government is a government of the people, and that it exerts
to serve the aspirations and interests of the people.
It categorically states all the policies and programmes adopted by
the ANC-led government will always be in the best interest of the
people hence, we call ourselves, a people‘s revolutionary movement.
Hon Chairperson, we take our mandate from the people, we went to
Eden district, and they mandated us. We came back to the people of
Eden, to asses how far we have gone in terms of improving their
quality of life.
Chairperson, we were in Rosemoor at Phambili Women Centre and at one
old age home under the leadership of Chairperson Dlamini, if I‘m not
mistaken. We engaged with the leadership, but it is important to
note that as a delegation, we were not satisfied that not all the
concerns and challenges were addressed. Some progress was made but
there were still a lot of challenges to be addressed. For an
example, the appointment of the Board at the old age, we did
reaffirm, and commit ourselves as the NCOP and as the provinces that
we will come back to assess of what was not covered.
We also took visits to St George high school and to Parkdene clinic
and the central aim being to improve the lives of our people. There
was a central problem especially at the old age, the appointment of
the CEO and the resolution around the allowances for our old people
there.
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Chairperson, as the responsible government under the ANC, we were
never afraid of our people and we shall in future never shy away
from them precisely because we are a people‘s movement. We are not
Abomafikizolo. We have been with our people in the trenches during
the very difficult days of our struggle and we can never ever
abandon them now and in the future.
Our local government elections manifesto 2016, reiterates the fact
that together with our communities we will establish a strong,
accountable, transparent and resilient system of local governance.
The local communities will be involved in all the developmental
initiatives in their respective localities.
We have ensured that our counsellors will hold report back and
feedback meetings with our communities. In the rural areas,
counsellors work together with the traditional leaders. Hon Chair,
we are however, aware that there are communities that are still
experiencing challenges with regard to public participation.
Chairperson, our slogan during the local government elections, even
confirms the centrality of our people and the communities in
improving their quality of life. It states that the local government
is in your hands, all power to the people.
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Hence, we have deliberately decided for the next five years, to the
following key issues within the context of local government in the
rest of the country, including Eden: Putting people first and
engaging of communities. Delivering basic services in a more
efficient and effective manner. Strengthening and improving on good
governance and accountability; and ensuring a sound financial
management, thereby improving on delivering on the mandate of the
municipalities.
Chairperson, the ANC is the only time tested organisation that
bravely and fearlessly fought for more than 104 years for freedom
and democracy. That is the aspirations and interests of all our
people at heart, including the people of Eden district. It is the
only true and genuine vehicle for the total transformation of the
South African society. I thank you Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr M WILEY: Chairperson, I listened with great interest how my
colleague hon Jaco Londt painted the stark and worrying contrast
between DA and ANC approaches to government and how the DA, where it
governs, excels. The citizens of these DA care municipalities really
see and feel a difference in service delivery.
If we are honest, we would admit this fact. Chairperson, I want to
thank you in particular, Chairperson Modise, for the manner in which
you have approached this project, the first of its kind in the short
history of this House. I also want to thank you, Chairperson Modise,
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on behalf of the people of the Western Cape for choosing our
province for this particular honour. I am proud that we succeeded,
but we also learnt from the experience. Your positive attitude and
nation-building spirit was well captured in your closing remarks in
George where we wrapped up the visit to the Eden area. If only more
ANC office bearers had such a generosity of spirit, then I believe
South Africa would be a far better and happier place right now.
A place where both politicians and civil servants would be in the
service of the people and straight talking with credible leaders,
would be sufficient reminder to get us all back to our vital tasks.
Regrettably, in too many cases, we have to resort to the courts and
Chapter 9-institutions to get our national leaders to fulfil their
basic responsibility and simple mandate of service, morality and
probity. Chairperson, no project would be complete without some
critical analysis. Firstly, to all NCOP members, I want to thank you
for your participation and generally the good spirit during the
visit. Member Makue, who chaired one of the sessions that I
attended, was largely correct in his report, but I do differ with
regard to his analysis of our Deputy Speaker, who was organised as a
co-chair without any consultation or without any prior preparation.
Some good, some was not so good on the visit, but given praise – we
must give praise where it is due. The fact of the matter is that we
learned some lessons and the municipalities that we visited worked
and that it is important. The money that is allocated by government
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is spent wisely. It might not be enough but then pressures on the
system are very high, indeed.
As we all know the first attempt at holding this feedback session in
November was aborted at the last minute. This was simply poor
planning by the NCOP secretariat and cost the Western Cape
Parliament some R36 145 in cancelled booking fees amongst other
costs. We were committed and ready to go, but the NCOP was not. In
the end, and again thanks to the firm guiding hand of the
Chairperson Modise, a final date was determined well in advance and
a better and more affordable planning cycle began which ended in the
shortened two-day feedback, which we fully embraced. I say fully
embraced because the Premier of the Western Cape changed her weekly
Cabinet venue to George so that provincial Minister‘s could attend
each municipal public participation meeting and many of the site
visits. Surely, this was the sole purpose of the whole exercise. For
the government at all spheres to be held accountable to the issues
raised last year and how they had responded.
And this then raises the elephant in the room. Where were the
national government Ministers? [Interjections.] Not a single one was
in sight. They are part of the process for sure and last year at
Oudtshoorn the program was loaded with ministerial names — the vast
majority of whom failed to arrive and one stage provincial Western
Cape MECs were the only Ministers to be found.
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But more importantly, many issues relevant to national departments
were raised by the public. And the subsequent reports gave a
scorecard of how each was faring as time went on. It quickly became
apparent that while the municipalities and provincial departments
were really performing to deliver the goods, the same could not be
said about national departments and steadily the reports dropped the
scorecards till finally the national departments were simply written
out of the script altogether as if they did not exist at all.
Pity, I would have loved to have asked a follow-up with the
Ministers of Police, Defence and Justice why the Oudtshoorn case
against senior military officers has not been resolved —just
endlessly postponed? This is not a small issue, but goes to the
heart of our commitment to constitutionalism and the rule of law.
For the uninformed, and I repeat what I did last year when I
reported back at that time; one night in 2014 a Brig General and two
colonels from the Infantry School allegedly mobilised and armed two
platoons, commandeered armoured and other transport and surrounded
an Oudtshoorn police station. Under pain of an armed assault the
skeleton SAPS staff released several SANDF officers and NCO
candidates who apparently just qualified in their leadership
graduation, earlier for drinking at an illegal shebeen.
The SANDF refused to charge the alleged seditionists departmentally
and the General has been promoted! Makes one think! It makes one
shudder! [Interjections.] If you think that is ―Amandla‖ for
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constitutionalism, you are in the wrong place. There were many other
instances where national Ministers could have given feedback on
pensions, skills development, water affairs and much more. When I
got the speaker‘s list earlier today, it included a national
Minister. Unfortunately, as with the other sessions, the Minister is
not here to answer. But in any case reporting to this House after
the final report has been written rather misses the point of the
exercise.
In future, it will be imperative that more attention to finer
details be given to avoid late and chaotic ad hoc decision-making.
Last minute program changes, failing to respond to correspondence
from sites and municipalities leaves hosts under prepared and time
gets wasted and nerves frayed as was shown in Mossel Bay.
Unfortunately, the public meetings were just too much of a
temptation for some ANC NCOP politicians to play politics and it
must never again happen that the NCOP abrogates its responsibility
by allowing a non NCOP person to chair a public meeting and
effectively turn a serious occasion into a public joke. The fact
that the person chosen to chair the session at Riversdale, without
consultation, was none other than the ANC constituency head for the
area, was a blatant act of bad faith and betrayal of both the public
trust and our own relationship building within this forum here.
On the contrary, the sloganeering that characterises the themes of
this House are a direct extract from a Marxist handbook ―forward the
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Vanguard to liberate the people search rubbish‖ this ideological
claptrap has no part in modern political society and I challenged
this House to show me a single successful communist regime – ever in
history since Carl Max invented the rhetoric. [Interjections.]
Finally Chairperson, I want to thank all the officials, especially
those 11 from Western Cape Province, who accompanied the visit and
in no small way contributed to the final success of the project. I
also want to thank the NCOP officials, although I must admit the
report of the Riversdale meeting, it was indicative that some
Members of Parliament official have a very biased political view.
The total costs to WCPP amounted to R221 000 with some accounts
still outstanding. For a legislature as small as ours, this is a lot
of money. I better believe that the exercise was well spent.
I thank you.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, I want to refuse to reduce myself to the
level of hon Wiley and hon Londt. I want to start from the spirit in
which we left when we concluded the programme. It is an honour and
pleasure to debate in this hon House the Report of the NCOP - Taking
Parliament to the People in the Eden district, Western Cape. In
particular, my focus will be at George local municipality where we
were deployed.
Hon Chairperson and the House, let me first acknowledge and
appreciate the steward leadership of the hon Chairperson, which you
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provided in this important task of the NCOP - Taking Parliament to
the People. Hon Chair, if it wasn‘t because of you, one would not
have taken this programme to the Western Cape because at first, they
didn‘t want it at all but you insisted because it was important for
the people of the Western Cape to have this programme. This was not
an easy task but in the end, it was worth taking. For it was
politics at the beginning, it was a mind game – psychology, and it
was sociology – the people.
However, what were most important for me are the lessons learnt out
of the exercise – the people. The people‘s voice, the voice of the
electorate emerged at the end of the programme. The people shall
govern, that is what I have learned because all of us from different
spheres of government finally succumbed to the service delivery call
by the people. We also learned that working together as different
spheres of government is the way to go – to better the lives of the
people we represent.
We started as the not so good friends with suspicions, which were
confirmed by the previous speaker, but we ended on a very high note
as a formidable team, ready to deal with issues affecting our
people, beyond that, we got to know each other as people. You won‘t
believe that for the first time, I was in a car which we called it a
very important person, VIP, transport. I was the only ANC member in
it, the rest were DA people. But it was very nice. I was never
intimidated. We were a team.
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Even though the progress was not at the level we would have liked as
a team, but at least we know who is to do what, and the
accountability channels were laid out by the team members without
any contestation.
Hon Chairperson, let me refer you to some of the areas where group 2
was deployed. The group had to visit three facilities, namely: the
Phambili Refugee Centre for Battered Women and an Old Age Home both
in Rosemore; and the Thusong Centre at Thembalethu.
I must report that all spheres of government were there and attended
all centres without fail; both administrators and the political
leadership were there. When we visited those centres, we all
approached the issues as Members of Parliament. At no stage did we
confuse the public, where one person will defend and the other asks
questions. We all asked questions as people who were doing oversight
and we all agreed. When we left, the community or people from the
centres were not confused.
At the Phambili Refugee Centre - the issues there were the lease
agreement between the board and public works and the transfer of the
centre to the board. We all agreed that the issue of transferring
the centre to the board was not possible, it could be impossible to
do simply because government is not yet in a position of disposing
of its facilities. But we agreed as a team that there are other
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options that could be considered: firstly, that the centre could be
transferred to provincial government‘s social development; secondly,
that it be transferred to the George local municipality; thirdly,
that, if the two fails, the municipality could avail land to build a
new centre. We then said, with regard to the lease agreement, we
assigned the Department of Social Development to assist the centre
to finalise the lease agreement. A report should be sent to the
Select Committee Social Services in the NCOP and also to the
Provincial Legislature Portfolio Committee responsible for Social
Services issues by the end of April. I must say that up to now, we
have not yet received the report. I am not sure whether the report
is still coming.
We assigned hon Mpambo Sibhukwana, and the Member of Parliament who
is servicing the constituencies around that area and the MPLs to coordinate the stakeholders to agree on the appropriate option and
report back to the NCOP through the Select Committee and the
Provincial Legislature. We also said that in the NCOP, through the
office of the Chairperson, after the option is finalised, a letter
be written to the Department of Public Works to assist in fasttracking the process of transferring the centre.
With regard to the Old Age Home in Rosemore, we all agreed as a team
that there are still serious problems. No progress was reported
since the visit in 2015 but an administrator was appointed. So,
these things of claiming good things yet we were all there, made us
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to all agreed that some things did not go well, are not correct
because you are reducing and degrading yourself.
We were concerned that the administrator that was appointed had no
timeframes attached, it was an open-ended appointment. We agreed as
a team that the Department of Social Development must assign
timeframes on the appointment of the administrator and a report
should be sent to the portfolio committee. Also, the very same team
that we assigned as led by hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana be responsible to
co-ordinate the stakeholders and have meetings with those people.
The other issue in that centre is that, since the administrator took
over, residents are not happy at all. They are not treated the way
they want to be treated. Employees are also not satisfied. Some of
them are not getting paid.
And the last of the issues is the Thusong Centre. I must say, it was
reported that there was enormous progress since the visit of the
NOCP. The people who are now paying rent are above 70%. And those
that were not paying have committed to pay by the end of April and
proof of payment will be forwarded to the NCOP through the
committee.
One disturbing issue was in the meeting of the community where
racism seem to be serious a matter and it is disturbing that
sometimes you don‘t mind when individuals do it is
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institutionalised, it becomes a serious problem. It was reported
that if you are not a DA member and black, you are not appointed on
fulltime basis. They are only appointed on contract. The son of the
Mayor was appointed there being a graduate. This was also reported
in Hessequa with regard to a housing project, informal settlement in
Khayelitsha, where they said, if you are not a member of the DA, you
are not given services. Thank you very much hon Chair.
Cllr G WOLMARANS: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy
Chairperson, hon members. SALGA is very pleased to have participated
in the taking Parliament to the people report back session in the
Eden District in the province of Western Cape. During April 2015 the
communities of the Eden District were invited to engage with the
NCOP where they raised a number of concerns, complaints and issues
that affect them on a daily basis, thereby making their lives far
from better, as envisaged by government. In those engagements, a
promise was made that the NCOP delegation will do a follow up
session to assess the progress made in addressing the concerns
raised by the people.
We support initiatives such as these, in order to encourage
participatory democracy through enhanced public participation. We
also strongly believe that functional, collaborative partnerships
between all spheres of government are essential to improve service
delivery in municipal spaces. As the constitutional structure where
the three spheres of government meet, the NCOP plays a vital role in
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the promotion of the principles for Cooperative Government and
Intergovernmental Relations. The NCOP has an important role to play
in ensuring that the different spheres of government work together
in performing their unique functions in terms of the Constitution
and that in doing so, they do not encroach in each other‗s area of
competence.
The NCOP engagement with various communities in the Eden Districts
in April 2015 unearthed a number of challenges, some requiring
urgent attention by various stakeholders and others requiring a
different way of thinking and doing things by all of us. Among the
key issues which emerged from the engagements with the residents in
the district was access to services, poor quality services delivery
and housing were issues raised repeatedly by members of the public
that attended the hearings.
Specific issues included; lack of access to land; lack of housing;
delay and alleged corruption in allocating RDP houses to
beneficiaries on waiting lists, particularly elderly people. Poor
quality of RDP houses; lack of access to electricity for some areas
of the municipality, especially the poor farming areas, lack of
access to water and water shortages in some areas. Lack of
sanitation; racism and discrimination; lack of scholar transport in
some areas; need for gas and solar energy. Also, the need to empower
and include black residents in farming activities such as lucrative
ostrich farming.
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While there has been progress reported, there are still many
outstanding matters to be addressed. The absence of key stakeholder
including departments to report back to the communities is a cause
for concern. SALGA supports the NCOP initiative and encourages the
national and provincial departments to support this initiative in
the spirit of cooperative governance. It is incumbent on the NCOP to
ensure that the executive carries out all the undertakings and
commitments that have been made in its response to some of the key
service delivery issues raised above.
Challenges facing local government, the NCOP in co-operation with
SALGA, can play a significant part in addressing some of the more
fundamental issues impacting service delivery. It is important to
find the right balance between compliance and service delivery.
Excessive legislation, regulation and reporting requirements are
having a negative impact on municipalities. The issue of unfunded
and underfunded mandates must be addressed urgently.
Financing local government, success in delivering basic services at
local level is impacted by the effectiveness of coordination and the
participation of all major role players. But it is also dependent on
adequate financing. While acknowledging the difficulties in
balancing the national budget, SALGA is of the view that local
government, as the sphere closest to the people and providing a
direct link in the service delivery chain, is not receiving a
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sufficient portion of the equitable share funding. The review of
powers and functions must also be addressed.
In conclusion Chair, let us acknowledge, but not be overcome by the
challenges that remain. Hon Chairperson, this event proved once more
that the NCOP is the appropriate vehicle for the achievement of
participatory democracy and cooperative governance. SALGA has been
an active part of the NCOP family for some time now and we remain
committed to working with it and our other partners to find
sustainable and satisfactory solutions. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, I also want to say
taking Parliament to the people is a necessary public participation
tool. It is a pity that we did not understand what the Chairperson
said because he opened in a very balanced and fair manner.
Unfortunately, members are again in political point scoring which is
not the objective of this session. Hon Chairperson, I also want to
commend you for devising the report back session which is something
new at national level and also in the provinces which is something
that we need to do so that we don‘t leave things hanging, thank you
very much for that.
The report back session is important, we commend it but we also need
to look at how we improve on what we have started. The first thing
that I want to commend on is that we need to have a common
understanding of the objective of the programme itself. Because what
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I also noticed was that on these three level spheres of government
there were those who would be defensive and some would be aggressive
as if it is a kind of a fall finding mission and that is how others
would be defending whatever is on the ground.
Secondly, we need to say how do select Committee makes follow up
because what happened on the report back session was that there are
projects where the select Committee should have made follow up but
they last heard of those projects when they were on the ground last
year. And they only had contact again when they were back in the
projects and some of the issues we were surprised as members of the
committees. When we leave the ground, we need to be clear as to who
is going to do what and when because I think that is important.
The other thing is that members of Parliament and members of the
legislature need to understand that we are not the executive. So
when we are there on the ground, making commitments may be a problem
at times because it is only members of the executive who can make
commitments. So we need to be very cautious about what promises we
are making and what commitments we are making, are they legislative
or executive commitment. And it is also important to canvas the cooperation of all stake holders so that when we are on the ground,
there is no situation whereby some information cant be solved
because the is a stakeholder who is not present. But in the same
vein, it is important again to say what the consequences of those
who are not co-operating are. For example, the issue of [Inaudible.]
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which my House Chair here knows very well, because we were also
there with the pre visits, the Mayor and the Municipal Manager ran
away. It has happened again.
So there must be consequences because this is a Constitutional
mandate of a structure of a country which has to be respected. I
also want to comment on the public meeting hon House Chair to say,
the public meeting is that what I noticed was that there was again
this boxing match between the ANC and the DA, whereby they both came
wearing their regalia. The IFP came with their civil clothes,
[Laughter.] in George. [Applause.] That is what happened in George.
We need to call the public to meetings as the public. Lastly
Chairperson, the co-operation hon Minister of the Cabinet, was
really not satisfactory. At least in future the Cabinet must honour
this programme and be there when they are required to be there.
Thank you.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, my colleague Mr Khawula speaks the
truth. The chairperson has set a trend for this debate, and it is
not wise to divert from the trend here, although the ANC and the DA
are, as always, at each other.
What is most important is that it is about the people. I was with
the team that went to Kannaland with the Chief Whip, and I agree
with the colleagues here – hon Nthebe was there too – that there was
not much co-operation from the mayor of Kannaland. He only attended
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one meeting and also the councillors from that area. The government
has done some work on the clinic that had been visited previously.
The only problematic place was the farm ... the Parmalat dairy farm
– this Afrikaans name. You know them
...
... kwaye uyaziqonda ezi zinto zinzima. [... and you understand that
these things are difficult.]
The problem with that farm is a land claim and you know,
Chairperson, land claims are a major problem in our country. Because
of the land claim, the provincial and national government couldn‘t
resolve the problem there.
Secondly, there are future plans to address the water problem in
Kannaland. They have a very young, energetic municipal manager who
is hands-on. They are about to build a dam that is about R34 million
or so, but they are hands-on in dealing with the water problem.
Yes, lack of co-operation with the councillors was a problem. I was
the co-chair of that team. Things went very well.
Bekuphethe mna phaya makwedini. [I held the reigns there boys.]
Together with the Chief Whip, I was in charge there.
Bekuphethe mna ngqo phaya. [I was the only one holding the reigns
there.]
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Yes, there are some improvements, but there is still a lot to be
done. Poverty is at the order of the day; that is the truth of the
matter. There is a high rate of unemployment, but what is also a
major problem there ...
... hayi, hayi, ndithetha notata omdala wena umncinci gqithi kwaye
awunasimilo. [Kwahlekwa.] [... no, no, I am talking to the old man
and you are very young and disrespectful.]
... the kids who do not go to school. I am really worried about
that. What I said to the Minister of Social Development is that you
have kids in those areas that do not go school.
Kufuneka undikhangele ebusuku wena xa undifunayo, uza kundifumana.
[You must look for me at night if you want me, and you will find
me.]
Some work has been done, but there is quite a lot that has to be
done. Alcohol, as well as kids who do not go to school, is a major
problem in those areas. Unemployment is a problem. So, those are the
problems, but the national and the provincial governments have done
some work in especially the health and education departments. I
think that is about all.
10 MAY 2016
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Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chairperson and hon members, thank you.
[Interjections.] Chairperson Thandi Modise, we have learned a lot
from the Taking Parliament to the People visit to the Eden district.
I am sure the people appreciated it, especially since we conducted a
follow-up visit in quick succession.
A lot has been said about the DA-governed municipalities in the Eden
district especially.
Jy kan maar sê wat jy wil, agb Dlamini. [You can say what you want,
hon Dlamini.]
It has always been my suspicion, and I may be right or not, hon
Khawula, that the ANC is using the Taking Parliament to the People
programme as a political tool in the run-up to the election in an
attempt to portray the DA municipalities as failing. This proves to
be very difficult to highlight. Let me highlight some facts, since
you also spoke – hon Makue is not here now – about DA
municipalities. Let me highlight this to the ANC.
Yes, hon Londt, an index compiled by Good Governance Africa weeks
ago revealed that nine of the top 10 municipalities in South Africa
are DA-run municipalities. However, 19 of the 20 worst
municipalities are ANC run. Various reliable government data sources
were used to compile this index: the 2011 census, National Treasury
sources, Gaffney‘s Local Government in South Africa Yearbook, and
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Statistics SA sources. It does not lie; it cannot lie. It revealed
that where the DA governs, we govern the best.
This index shows that where we govern, there is accurate
administration, including capacity and financial soundness, as well
as economic development where we reduce poverty and unemployment,
hon Makue – not only clean audits, more than that. There is service
delivery, which includes refuse removal, water and sanitation. Hon
Dithebe, incidentally, these issues are again on the ANC manifesto.
You have failed this past 22 years. What are you going to change
now? They say the DA is simply the best government – not me. It is
government sources. We did it, and people want to live where we
govern.
Chairperson, I agree with you: The bus must move. Let us take
Parliament to more neglected people living in ANC-run
municipalities. Let‘s take Parliament to the people of the North
West where three provincial departments have been placed under
administration. Let‘s take it to the North West where, since 2009,
100% of municipalities are under investigation. We can ask hon
Mthimunye to lead that delegation. He knows about it. He has been
there – Naledi, Ventersdorp and other places.
Let‘s take Parliament to the people of Gauteng where Merafong,
Westonaria and Randfontein are the worst ANC-run municipalities in
that province. The DA does not only promise our people good
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governance; we do it. We have a track record. Listen to this. Hon
Londt, yes, Hessequa is the second best municipality in the country.
Mossel Bay is the fifth best municipality in the country. They are
both DA run.
Chairperson, South Africans see the difference. They want to be in a
DA-run municipality. People from places all over South Africa like
Johannesburg, Tshwane, Mogale City, Msunduzi, hon Chetty, and Nelson
Mandela Bay metro, demand better services. It is proven that the DA
governs better. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J P PARKIES: Hon Chair, and fellow colleagues, I am not going to
be tempted to respond to what the Chief Whip of the DA said, but to
summarise the supreme objective of our visit, which was the most
cathartic and incredible approach decided by the leadership of this
NCOP. I want to quote Le Duan, the leader of the Vietnam Workers
Party:
Things and phenomena cannot exist without a definite form of
combination of the various factors making them up. Organisations,
therefore, is an attribute of things and phenomena themselves.
When we speak of organisation in our social lives, we are dealing
with the relationships and the co-ordination of activity of
various parts of the whole, the system of leadership and
management in all fields, the system of forms and measures for the
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realisation of the decisions from the moment the plans are worked
out to final stage of checking on the results achieved.
Our history is filled with unfinished battles, and the trauma of
those battles continues to live with us today. We continue to live
with the effects of the vestiges of colonialism of a special type.
Colonialism left scratch moments wide open and prolonged, extending
human suffering with the sense of inexplicable violence and unspoken
tension. Beneath the surface reside layers of meaning that cut to
the root of inequality, humiliating hardship and tormenting poverty
that infuse South Africa‘s convoluted history.
The source of discomfort emanating from this ... the past lingers
beneath the surface.
Squinting through this history and current challenges facing our
people requires us, as a collective, to obliterate the terrible
suffering of the masses, without paying attention to the efficacy of
the nefarious system of capitalism.
Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I just want to know if
that was the movie that he watched on his iPhone while he was ...
[Laughter.]... totally off the subject.
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Mr J P PARKIES: The liberals of all shades would want us to believe
that, what informs their decisions and approach, at all times, is
ideologically neutral, when it is not.
This happens only through the radiating quality and intensity of
leadership that is capable of assuaging physical hunger, humiliating
hardship and the tormenting poverty of our people who are always in
quandary.
Therefore, the best way to understand the current fuss of the
present is to go back and review the history, to have a better
insight of the origins of the hostility plaguing us until today.
One issue that I want to raise is that our focus we consciously
decide on should not be on how many provinces we have visit, but on
the level of impact we make in the lives of ordinary people. This
confirms the correctness of the political decision taken by the
leadership.
Southern Cape Agricultural Co-operative in Mossel Bay, which
consists of seven members, operates on a farm called Matjiesdrift.
This land was bought in 2011 for R3,5 million. They received
R2,4 million from recap for infrastructure. The stock water was
never done and they alleged that R800 000 is still with Department
of Rural Development in George. They need 200 cattle and stock
watering for the farm to run. This farm is 806 hectares. They say
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there is that no productive or economic activity happening there. We
want to call on the select committee to follow up on this matter and
the provincial department to follow up on this matter. If we are
genuine about emerging black farmers coming from commercial farmers,
these people must be helped. If we are genuine about being
representatives of the great masses of our people, these people must
be helped.
The NCOP represents the voice of the people with the vital urge to
deny permanence of all effects that delineate human life and
dignity, which are socially abhorrent.
We need to encourage the select committee to fervently follow up on
all issues that are not yet resolved which have a direct bearing on
the service that should have an effect on the standard of living for
our people.
Our instant call for the support of George High School should be
constant. George High School is a school of excellence and a school
of choice. The land question relating to the St Paul Primary School
should be treated with greater urgency by the provincial government.
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: House Chair,
Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members of the NCOP, Salga
representative, mayors and councillors, distinguished guests, ladies
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and gentlemen, let me quote from Prof Lumumba addressing a great
meeting of Africa on agriculture in Kenya. He warned by saying that
African people will succeed when they do two things: entrench and
agree that technology and science are the key to us finding our
footprint and stop relying on donor funds but use their own funds
from their own governments.
However, he went beyond this and said that Africans must stop this
thing of competing like dwarves, arguing about which one of the
dwarves is taller than the others. That is the poison our opposition
parties happen to spread, as they try and outdo each other – I am
quoting: quote, unquote. If there is an offense, it is not me.
Mr C F B SMIT: House Chairperson, on a point of clarity, is it
actually allowed for the hon Minister to debate on something that
neither he nor any of the other Ministers attended? Maybe he has the
date wrong because tomorrow we have the debate ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Smit, take your seat.
The hon Minister is entitled and allowed to participate in this
debate. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you,
Chairperson. The 2016 Imbizo Focus Week is aimed at providing an
opportunity for the state to do the following: mobilise strategic
partners and communities to pull together collectively in growing
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the economy and agricultural sector and provide the state with a
first-hand account of engagements with communities towards building
confidence in government programmes in general and, in this case,
Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries programmes in
particular.
Let me say that I want to apologise for missing this one, but last
year I was present. I was present because I gave input where the
Western Cape MEC was absent. I have listened to Mr Londt speaking
about his distaste of councillors not attending meetings. I have the
same distaste, hon Londt, because I have been in the Western Cape.
Recently, we had run visits to look at the impact of the drought,
and the Western Cape MEC was conspicuously absent.
Let me say that, according to the Labour Force Survey report
embargoed, until yesterday it shows that, notwithstanding the
drought, the agricultural sector has grown by 16 000 jobs.
Government has introduced the nine-point plan as a delivery vehicle
to realise the goals of the National Development Plan.
The first pillar of the National Development Plan is to revitalise
the agriculture and agroprocessing value chain. Let me say that if
you fish in a town but you process in Cape Town, you are denying
that town the value of processing. You deny it jobs. The Western
Cape has done that in many towns, including the one we visited. In
this province, in terms of the processing of fish, you can do your
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own study. All the processing is done in Cape Town, depriving those
towns after you have exploited the multiple resources. So, what we
are saying therefore is that through agroprocessing, we will improve
the economy; we will improve agriculture, and we will give value.
[Interjections.]
Under the leadership of the Deputy President, the hon Cyril
Ramaphosa, we are developing the social compact that will ensure
that commitment by all stakeholders – in this case, we refer to the
private sector. They are onboard against the wishes of those who
think the ANC is not doing anything. Last night, we met with them.
They were shown progress and where we are going. The social compact,
once agreed upon, will be combined the outcomes of Operation Phakisa
that will provide the economic aspects for comprehensive
agricultural development for South Africa.
What you regarded as a movie, I think the hon Julius will confirm,
what the hon Parkies was showing us – the number of cattle. Hon
Julius was honest because he said he doesn‘t know where he can get a
farm in the Western Cape. I agree with him! There is no land for
black people in the Western Cape because in this province, the land
is under the custodianship of the Public Works department.
If you go to Gauteng, you will find land for black farmers –
anywhere except here. I can tell you that in this province, black
people constitute 1% of agriculture. It is a fact, and you say you
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are the best in the world. Yes, you can do books. You can be the
best in terms of your own accounting, but how do you account for
those that are hungry on a daily basis?
The Eden district socioeconomic aspects, as pronounced by the
2011 Census, indicate that the Western Cape population comprises
11,25% of the total population of the country. In this area, poverty
is of the greatest ...
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I think the hon Minister watched the same
communist video as hon Parkies because he is also on the wrong story
here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Faber, you cannot do
that. [Interjections.] Take your seat, hon Faber. Take your seat.
Hon Minister, continue.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: The Eden
district population amounts to 587 564 people, which is 9,8% of the
Western Cape population. It has the third largest population of all
the regions within the province, as well as the third largest
population growth rate after the City of Cape Town and the West
Coast district at 2,4%. This is slower than that of the province as
a whole, but the Eden district also has high levels of in-migration,
since it borders the Eastern Cape. In 2013, the most populous
regions were the City of Cape Town with 3,6 million people, followed
by the Cape Winelands with a population of 809 000.
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Food insecurity is still a grave concern for this region, country
and all the provinces, hence our targeted interventions. Let me show
you what we, as a department, are doing. The department has
allocated conditional grants amounting to R2,2 billion countrywide.
The Western Cape will receive R214 million of the Comprehensive
Agricultural Support Programme, CASP, and Ilima/Letsema allocations
for the 2016-17 financial year. An amount of R96 million will
directly support farmers with inputs and infrastructure. An amount
of R22 million is earmarked to strengthen extensive support
services, R4,5 million will revitalise Elsenburg College and,
finally, R40,8 million will repair infrastructure damaged by the
2012 floods.
The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries has approved
R12,5 million to be spent in the Eden district in 2016, so we are
partnering with this House in its intentions and we will be with
you. This will provide for 178 smallholder farmers in the Eden
district for 2016-17, including 145 fruit farmers, 11 ostrich
farmers, as well as sheep and cattle farmers.
Fruit farming is targeted for Hoë-Uitsig Co-operative, Rica‘s fruit,
and Mistico Trading with a total of 145 beneficiaries and a total
CASP allocation of R7,26 million. Other projects within the Eden
district include Musgrave for beef, Laaitjieslaagte for beef and
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sheep, as well as Hou Moed for ostrich farming with 31 beneficiaries
and a total allocation of Ilima/Letsema funding of R4,82 million.
Some of the success stories in the Western Cape are the following.
As a department, we are proud of these, as we made it happen.
Chamomile Farming enterprise is located in Schaapkraal, Philippi. It
is owned by four family members, and Ms Wadea Jappie is the farm
manager. This is a mixed-farming business producing vegetables and
layer production. The business was assisted with R6 million to
expand its layer production unit from 6 000 layers to 10 000 layers.
The other one is Trevor‘s Boerdery. Mr Trevor Abrahams is the owner
of the business located in Ceres, Cape Winelands. He received CASP
support of R6,9 million to increase fruit production, maintain
export quality, and build capacity to ensure compliance with export
standards.
Mr Tyrone Poole is the owner of the Hopefield Abattoir broiler
business and has been supported through CASP to upgrade the 10 000chicken-per-week abattoir.
Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, I just want to ascertain whether the
Minister is still with us. We are debating Taking Parliament to the
People in the Eden district. This is about local government. Where
are we now? [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius! Order, members!
Hon Julius, take your seat.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, but the Minister ... you can hear the
Minister is there ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, you had an
opportunity. You participated in the debate. Allow the Minister to
continue. Continue, sir.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you, sir.
Inyani iyakraka. [The truth hurts.] You know that, Mr Julius.
[Interjections.]
Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, I have a problem with – the Minister did use
the word ―ostrich‖ once. He is talking about Eden.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: I had been
taught in my younger life that, when you travel on your bicycle
delivering the mail, you should disregard the dogs that bark behind
you. I will do the same here. I don‘t intend to insult.
Mr André Cloete is the owner of the business Klein Ezeljacht, a
business operated on a Land Redistribution for Agricultural
Development, LRAD, farm. He has received support to increase food
production and efficiencies from 33,27 hectare to 40 hectare.
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The stories above are all indications that government intends to
strengthen agricultural growth and employment and ensure the
participation of black farmers in the mainstream agricultural
economy is improved. What we need is the buy-in from the provincial
leadership to make land available so that those farms are
sustainable and so that the hon Julius can dream of a tomorrow where
he is a farmer because this is his country.
In addressing the challenges in the Eden district, the three spheres
of government are working together to ensure that strategies address
the core developmental issues of the district. Government will bring
both rural and urban communities together by providing an
environment for empowerment, equal participation, self-sufficiency,
and progress. Integral to these claims are the prevention of
continued cultural and historical past inequalities and the
sustainable use of natural resources.
Agriculture is an integrated part of the strategies put in place by
government, as well as the Eden District Municipality. Currently,
government has scheduled meetings where relevant departments will
play a pivotal role in the development of an integrated business
plan for Eden District Municipality as a whole. The focus is on
Oudtshoorn and Kannaland Local Municipalities, with a specific focus
the towns of Amalienstein and Zoar to create enabling resources for
economic and social growth. Household action plans will be taken to
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the next food security meeting, scheduled for the end of May, for
grant funding.
What I am saying therefore is that, as the department, we are at
work. We don‘t sleep. We don‘t dream. We work with the people. What
we need is to tell the truth where it is due. It will not help us to
claim that we are the best-run town when we know that on the fringes
of those towns, you see shacks. Workers spend their time on those
farms but sleep in very bad conditions. Let‘s change that together.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I would just like to know whether the
Minister can tell us the truth about the Ncera farms near the East
London Airport as well. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon Faber! Hon Faber, you
know that you cannot do it that way. You first have to ascertain
whether the Minister is ready to take a question. Thank you, hon
Minister. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Chairperson,
thank you. Hon members, thank you all for taking time and putting
points across, some positive and others negative. In truth, we have
all learned something out of the programme.
In our first meeting and interaction as we arrived in George,
members of this House actually thought that they could instruct and
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things would happen. Members had to come to the point where we
accepted that as members of the legislature, we are not the
executives. We made recommendations, followed up, cajoled and made
noise.
The second lesson that we have learned is that, it is our attitude
that often opens the doors that are slammed hard in our faces. Any
human being will respond when you show co-operation. I always think
when politicians put aside their differences and focus on what
really drew us into politics, which is service to the people, that
will serve our people better.
I am very happy when members of the Council get angry on behalf of
the people. I am happy when you get arrogant on behalf of your
communities. I am unhappy when we sacrifice qualitative time to go
into oversight because we are busy with little things. I am unhappy
when we get assurances that work is being done and yet it is not
done.
Hon members, we do not have to remind the select committees of this
House that it is your responsibility, and perhaps hon Nyambi‘s work
to ensure that every committee programme that will come out of this
House will carry some commitments towards what the Eden District has
shown us. It is also – I don‘t see hon Mohapi. I don‘t know where he
went to and he is certainly younger than most of us in the House.
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However, one of the issues that we really need to work at is to
address the arrogance which happens at the face of service delivery
at local government. It is also – perhaps to use that committee we
should begin to educate public representatives about the
relationship of the three spheres and the relationship of the three
arms of state.
Therefore, Taking Parliament to the People has also not only availed
us with the opportunity to look at what is happening and to listen,
but it also puts us as practitioners on the ground to begin to do
that which we have been theorising about. Hon Wiley and hon members,
yes, we had to postpone but mostly because we had a labour unrest in
our hands. We could not guarantee that all the services we needed
when we were supposed to go to Eden at that time, we would have had
with the staff of Parliament being on strike. That was part of the
reason. It is also true that, that strike cost the Western Cape and
Parliament some money. It is a lesson again that we must talk and
try and deal with issues timeously so that they do not come to bite
us and cost us money.
Hon members, we must also remember that our main duty as members of
the House, hon Zokwana, is not to defend the executive but to ask
questions, and that is what oversight is all about. It is to ask the
executive to deliver on behalf of all our people. [Applause.] Now,
it is important to also look at communities and most of the time I
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only look at my constituency as my constituency. But, in fact, all
constituencies belong to this House.
When we want to represent and create reconciliation, we must be
guarded in how we consider all constituencies. All of us know where
we vote and where we are going to lobby. And all of us, when we are
in public, we are public representatives, period! I cannot in the
street say to a member of the public, don‘t talk to me because you
are wearing a t-shirt that is blue; and don‘t talk to me because you
are wearing red. I cannot do that because I am a public
representative.
Hon Hattingh, it is only when you get to my age that you begin to
understand some of these things that ultimately when you are
younger, it is nice and adventurous. But when you age, you begin to
appreciate the opportunities of being here, and of representing
people and a country. So, I‘m hoping that we are privileged enough
to have a diverse constituency at local government and all spheres.
Just before my time runs out, we appreciate that you are here hon
Minister. We did actually even have a meeting as the steering
community with the Minister of Performance and Monitoring and
Evaluation because we raised issues about performance across the
board. It would be interesting that when we begin to take Parliament
to people on issue base, that we would be able to point at a
Minister and say, on such and such a date you will be there.
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Perhaps it is with maturity as Members of Parliament that we‘ll
begin to understand that, in fact, members of the executive are
accountable to Parliament. Members of the executive are not members
of the NCOP but they are accountable to Parliament. And Parliament
is not the National Assembly, but it is the two Houses combined.
However, you see, until we take ourselves seriously, and until we
can impress on the executive that this House is important - and
perhaps even more important than their own House because we create,
hon Zokwana, that platform for you to talk directly to Salga, the
provinces and constituencies which are sometimes vulnerable and do
not necessarily belong to anybody because we simply represent the
provinces and the people who live in them. Therefore, whatever it is
that you need to put out there directly to the people, it is better
served by being a friend and a servant, using the platform availed
by the NCOP.
Hon members, thank you very much for being with us in Eden. I hope
that you will have much more enthusiasm in the next province we will
go to. I know that almost all provinces we have visited twice by
now, we keep the record. That is why it is important for us when we
go to a province, for provinces not to think that it is because some
of us now want to go after issues which affect people, and we really
don‘t care who runs the province and the municipality. We have to go
there and represent because, unless we do that and say to people
that Parliament has the reason to be respected and to become
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relevant as we thought it should be relevant, we will be killing
ourselves.
Imagine a country like South Africa which leads – for members who
have not represented us, as you walk into a meeting outside these
provinces and you are in a South African delegation, you are given
responsibility. They don‘t care whether you are in the DA or IFP.
So, we need to prepare ourselves to represent the country and
represent it well. Thank you very much and good night. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question Put That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 22:28
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
THURSDAY, 5 MAY 2016
10 MAY 2016
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TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services
(a)
Directives regarding all matters which are necessary or expedient to be provided for and
which are to be complied with by all members of the prosecuting authority who are tasked
with the institution and conducting of prosecutions in cases relating to trafficking in
persons, issued and tabled in terms of section 44(8) and section 44(9) respectively of the
Prevention and Combating of Trafficking in Persons Act, 2013 (Act No 7 of 2013).
2.
The Minister in The Presidency
(a)
2016 First Quarterly Report (January – March 2016) of the National Conventional Arms
Control Committee (NCACC), tabled in terms of section 23(1)(c) of the National
Conventional Arms Control Act, 2002 (Act No 41 of 2002).
FRIDAY, 6 MAY 2016
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
10 MAY 2016
1.
PAGE: 304 of 311
The Minister of Arts and Culture
(a)
Strategic Plan of the Pan South African Language Board for 2015-2020 [RP 70-2016]
(b)
Annual Performance Plan of the Pan South African Language Board for 2016-17 [RP 692016]
MONDAY, 9 MAY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Membership of Committees
(1)
Mr SJ Mohai (National Council of Provinces) and Mr VG Smith (National Assembly) have
been elected as the Co-Chairpersons of the Joint Standing Committee on the Financial
Management of Parliament with effect from 5 May 2016.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
10 MAY 2016
1.
PAGE: 305 of 311
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Government Notice No R.231, published in Government Gazette No 39796, dated 10
March 2016: Amendment to the Compulsory Specification for the safety of flexible cords
for electrical appliances (VC 8006), in terms of the National Regulator for Compulsory
Specification Act, 2008 (Act No 5 of 2008) as amended through Legal Metrology Act,
2014 (Act No 9 of 2014).
(b)
Government Notice No R.232, published in Government Gazette No 39796, dated 10
March 2016: Compulsory Specification for electric motor-operated hand-held tools,
transportable tools and lawn and garden machinery (VC 9105), in terms of the National
Regulator for Compulsory Specification Act, 2008 (Act No 5 of 2008) as amended through
Legal Metrology Act, 2014 (Act No 9 of 2014).
(c)
General Notice No 116, published in Government Gazette No 39808, dated 11 March 2016:
Intention to designate the South African Energy and Metallurgical Special Economic Zone
in Musina/Makhado in the Province of Limpopo: For public comment, in terms of the
Special Economic Zones Act, 2014 (Act No 16 of 2014).
(d)
Government Notice No 257, published in Government Gazette No 39818, dated 17 March
2016: Draft Amended Financial Services Sector Code for public comment, in terms of
section 9 (5) of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Amendment Act, 2003
(Act No 53 of 2003).
10 MAY 2016
(e)
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General Notice No 201, published in Government Gazette No 39910, dated 8 April 2016:
Erratum notice pertaining to transport sector Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment
(B-BBEE) Codes issued in terms of B-BBEE Act 2003, (Act No 53 of 2003) as amended
by B-BBEE Act, 2013 (Act No 46 of 2013).
(f)
Government Notice No 331, published in Government Gazette No 39832, dated 18 March
2016: Legal Metrology Draft Regulations, in terms of the Legal Metrology Act, 2014 (Act
No 9 of 2014).
TUESDAY, 10 MAY 2016
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
(1)
The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:
(a)
Protected Disclosures Amendment Bill [B 40 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec
75).
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 307 of 311
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a)
Fourth Quarterly Performance Report of Parliament for 2015-16, tabled in terms of section
54(1) of the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, 2009
(Act No 10 of 2009).
2.
The Minister of Police
(a)
Proclamation No 36, published in the Government Gazette No 39124, dated 21 August
2015: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
(b)
Proclamation No 37, published in the Government Gazette No 39124, dated 21 August
2015: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
10 MAY 2016
(c)
PAGE: 308 of 311
Proclamation No 38, published in the Government Gazette No 39124, dated 21 August
2015: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
(d)
Proclamation No 41, published in the Government Gazette No 39307, dated 21 October
2015: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
(e)
Proclamation No 42, published in the Government Gazette No 39332, dated 28 October
2015: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
(f)
Proclamation No 43, published in the Government Gazette No 39332, dated 28 October
2015: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
10 MAY 2016
(g)
PAGE: 309 of 311
Proclamation No 45, published in the Government Gazette No 39492, dated 10 December
2015: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
(h)
Proclamation No 7, published in the Government Gazette No 39737, dated 26 February
2016: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
(i)
Proclamation No 8, published in the Government Gazette No 39737, dated 26 February
2016: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
(j)
Proclamation No 13, published in the Government Gazette No 39863, dated 29 March
2016: Notification by President in respect of entities identified by the United Nations
Security Council, made in terms of section 25 of the Protection of Constitutional
Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities, 2004 (Act No 33 of 2004) and tabled
in terms of section 26 of the Act.
3.
The Minister of Telecommunications and Postal Services
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 310 of 311
Please note: The following entry replaces item 23(j) in the Tablings of 10 March 2016 in the
name of the Minister of Telecommunications and Postal Services on page 15:
(a)
Revised Corporate Plan for 2016/17 – 2020/21 and Annual Performance Plan of
Broadband Infraco for 2016/17.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Council of Provinces
1. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources on the Budget Vote and
Annual Performance Plan 2016/2017 of the Department of Environmental Affairs – Budget Vote
No 27, dated 10 May 2016
The Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources, having considered Budget Vote: 27 and
Annual Performance Plan 2016/2017 of the Department of Environmental Affairs, reports that the
Committee has concluded its deliberations thereon.
Report to be considered.
2. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources on the Budget Vote and
Annual Performance Plan 2016/2017 of the Department of Mineral Resources – Budget Vote No
29, dated 10 May 2016
10 MAY 2016
PAGE: 311 of 311
The Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources, having considered Budget Vote: 29 and
Annual Performance Plan 2016/2017 of the Department of Mineral Resources on 3 May 2016, reports
that the Committee has concluded its deliberations thereon.
Report to be considered
3. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources on the Performing Animals
Protection Amendment Bill [B 9B - 2015] (National Assembly – Section 75), dated 10 May 2016.
The Performing Animals Protection Amendment Bill [B 9B - 2015] was referred to the committee on
08 March 2016. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries briefed the committee on 12
April 2016 on the bill.
The Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources, having deliberated on and considered the
subject of the Performing Animals Protection Amendment Bill [B 9B - 2015] (National Assembly – sec
75), referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 75 Bill, agrees to the Bill without
amendments.
Report to be considered.
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