Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 09 Mar 2016

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD


WEDNESDAY, 9 MARCH 2016
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

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The Council met at 14:00.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayer and meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I
have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be
no notices of motion or motions without notice, accept for the
motions that are on the Order Paper.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Chairperson, I
hereby move, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a
sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions; the
Council considers draft resolutions on remuneration of
Constitutional Court Judges, Judges and Magistrates, and the report
of the Select Committee on Finance.

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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members,
there is no speakers list. I shall put the question and the question
is that the motion be agreed to.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I want to raise a point of order
before we agree to the motion.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I
shall put the question and the question is that the motion be agreed
to. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow the provinces
the opportunity to make their declarations to vote, if they so wish.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I don’t want to make a declaration on the report;
I want to raise a point of order on the motion be put to the House.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: The first
motion?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The first motion.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Please, go
ahead.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, on a point of order: Section 70 of the
Constitution allows the Council to do its own practice. Our law
actually also allows to take into consideration common law, which is

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recognised in this Council as practices and processes followed
previously until now by this Council. The practice of any report to
be printed in the ATC is thus not being followed, with regard to the
report of Select Committee on Finance

Subsequently, there will be no opportunity to acquaint ourselves
before the report will be tabled in the Council today. Although the
report is now on each one’s desk, we didn’t have time to read it and
it has not been printed in the ATC.

I urge the Chair to uphold the decorum, which she always maintains
as a priority in the NCOP. If this practice is allowed to be set
aside today, it will set a precedent and will be in contravention
with existing practice. I would thus like to move that the Council
amends the motion and that the latter part of it is being removed.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Labuschagne, do I understand that you wish us to amend the first
motion? That motion simply says that we must consider the draft
resolutions on the remuneration of Constitutional Court Judges,
judges and magistrates and report of the select committee. Is that
the point of order you are raising?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chair, the point of order is that the report
of the Select Committee on Finance must be removed, because the
report has not been printed in the ATC. Thank you.

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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members,
can I be allowed to take advice on this matter? Hon members, there
is a point of order from hon Labuschagne who wishes that the last
part of the first motion, ―and the report of Select Committee on
Finance‖ should not be allowed because that report has not been
printed in the ATC. The hon Labuschagne also said that
alternatively, she would like to amend the motion.

I would like to avail you the opportunity to amend this motion
because the report of the select committee should be the report that
deals with the issue of the second and third motions. Hon
Labuschagne, would you like to make the amendment to the motion,
which you were suggesting?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I would amend the motion which is
first on the Order Paper as follows: Draft Resolution, that,
notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that the sitting of the
Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council considers
draft resolutions on remuneration of Constitutional Court Judges,
judges and magistrates. That is the amendment of the first motion.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members,
we now have a motion to amend the first motion on the Order Paper. I
must therefore, first put the amended motion to the House. Will the
House agree to the amendment of the first motion, as proposed by hon
Labuschagne? [Interjections.] Order, members! Will the House agree?

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[Interjections.] No, please, calm down. I am going to give the
opportunity to provinces to vote on the amendment as proposed by hon
Labuschagne. I am going to take you alphabetically.

Eastern Cape: Eastern Cape disagrees.

Free State: chairperson, Free State does not support.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]

Gauteng: We do not agree with the amendment.

KwaZulu-Natal: KwaZulu-Natal disagrees.

Limpopo: Limpopo ga e dumelelane le yona [Limpopo does not agree.]
[Interjections.]

Mpumalanga: Mpumalanga does not agree.

The Northern Cape: The Northern Cape does not agree.

The North West: The North West ga e dumelane, Modulasitilo. [North
West does not agree, Chairperson.]

The Western Cape: The Western Cape supports the motion.

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Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order: The North West
does not have that mandate. So, it can’t vote.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Order,
members. You are a delegate of the North West, you are a delegate of
the Free State and practice and convention in this House is that
leaders of provincial delegations vote on behalf of their provinces.
[Interjections.] No, member, I am addressing you on your point of
order. I am addressing the point of order you raised.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I actually want to say that we
cannot enter into this system knowing the precedent that we are
creating that is extremely dangerous and not in line with common law
practice.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members,
in fact, you are not setting a precedent; we found the precedent in
this House. It is interesting for me that members who are in
provincial delegations today, question the mandates of their leaders
of delegations, because the precedent you set is that you have
always allowed the leaders of delegations to vote. If members says
to me today that, in fact, before the leaders of provincial
delegations vote, I must start off by asking this House whether
delegations have met and have reached, then it is a separate thing.

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That would then be the first time that this House will consider that
matter. In the absence of that, we will do and consider and conclude
this in the way we have done it and then come back to the question,
which is very relevant, which Ms Mokwele is addressing. We will then
come to the question whether this House, in the future, must
entertain asking provincial delegations whether they have actually
arrived at a mandate.

I am taking no further points of order. [Interjections.] No, please,
don’t add on. I am taking no further points of order. We have voted
and I want the results.

The Western Cape moved an amendment as follows:

That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting
of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council
considers draft resolutions on remuneration of Constitutional
Court Judges, Judges and Magistrates.

Question put: That the amended motion be agreed to.

AGAINST: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo,
Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

IN FAVOUR: Western Cape.

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Amendment rejected.

Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, no, I am not changing. With due respect,
I said Free State does not support. That is what I said.
[Interjections.] No, it is me who said it. [Interjections.] That is
what I said. I can place it on record. That is what I said. I said,
Free State does not support. That is what I said.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon members, I
may have heard wrongly, but I thought that the member said he
supported. Supposing, we take it that ... Hon Labuschagne, hon
Michalakis, you are on your feet.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I raised on a point of order, firstly, to
amend the motion. Then the amendment on the motion must be put to
the vote. The way, in which we have done it now, there will be no
way to do a declaration on the question and that is the motion. The
point of order that I want to raise is that the precedent is not
being set on how we vote. The precedent is being set on the fact
that a report that has not been printed in the ATC is going to be
tabled in this House and will put me in a position, as a delegation,
to vote on a report for which I did not have time to read and I did
not have the time to get acquainted with the content. That is an
unfair practice in this House. That was the reason why I amended the
report.

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There is no reason. We have done it last year in 2015. We all got
together, because the reports were not printed in the ATC. We
rescheduled a meeting of this Council to the next day at 9:00 in the
morning because reports were not printed in the ATC.

Today, it might be because of pressure or a glitch, whatever the
reason. We are not even nasty; we are just following the rules. We
just say that the report, based on practices that have been followed
in the past in this House, has not been printed in the ATC and
therefore, we can’t discuss it.

There is no reason that it can’t be printed in the ATC today and be
discussed at 9:00 or 14:00 for a half an hour. If we follow that
through, it sets a precedent, that, in the future, we can bring to
this House whatever we want to, without it being printed in the ATC.

That will not contribute to the status of the NCOP, as a Council.
Thank you very much.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Labuschagne, I
also accorded you the opportunity to propose an amendment. You took
the opportunity to propose the amendment to the motion. That
amendment that you proposed was put to the House to vote on ... that
amendment was put to the House to vote on. That vote has been
carried and now you want to open up and take the House back to the
discussion as though an amendment has not been put. The amendment

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that hon Labuschagne proposed was that we put the full stop after
magistrates, which would then exclude ... That amendment has been
put to the House and has been defeated. Whether or not we count the
vote of the Free State which I thought I heard in the same way as
hon Julius, but the hon member says in fact that is not what he
said. If we even nullify that vote of the Free State in this
particular instance, that amendment has been carried. I want to then
do what I should do. I want to ask the House to proceed to vote on
motion 1 as it stands on the Order Paper. Hon Michalakis, you
insist?

Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you Chairperson. On a point of order and
thank you for indulging me: The Constitution specifically states
that this Council must make decisions in a fair and transparent
manner that is consistent with democracy. The report has not been
printed in the ATC and with the greatest of respect I submit that
since it wasn’t printed in the ATC this Council did not have the
opportunity to scrutinise it before we make a decision. There is no
way that this Council can objectively make an informed decision in
such a manner and that would result in it not being in a fair and
open manner that is consistent with democracy.

I therefore submit, with the greatest of respect hon Chairperson,
that should it be put to a vote and Council decides to approve this
document that the decision to put it to a vote in Council would
result in an unconstitutional decision. I do not want to ... and I

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say it with the greatest of respect ... I do not want to disagree
necessarily with your decisions as the Chairperson but I would like
to caution that should this be put to a vote and the procedure was
unconstitutional, that we might face a very dangerous precedent.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Michalakis.
Hon members, it would seem to me that you want to have your cake and
eat it. That is a draft resolution. The draft resolution is put.
That is a point of order. The point of order also offers an
alternative. It says, allow me to make an amendment. Any amendment
to a motion or statement is first put to the vote. That amendment is
put to the vote. As it is put to the vote, it means we must now
consider that which is here. I know what the Constitution says. It
also says that the House can make its internal arrangements. In
other words ... in other words, the House can take a decision to
suspend or to do whatever. Hon De Beer?

Mr C J DE BEER: Chairperson, just on a point of clarity. The report
was jointly adopted yesterday by the Select Committee on Finance and
the Standing Committee on Finance. The Standing Committee on
Finance’s report was printed in the ATC, as it appears on page 30 of
the ATC of today. I recognised it this morning at 06:45am when I
went down to the stores to get the ATC paper. I immediately phoned
the manager of the unit, Adv Tau and I engaged with Adv Phindela,
secretary of the NCOP, as to what now. I was advised that this
document will be tabled today as is on the desks of hon members, as

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printed in the ATC, and that is the correct procedure until now that
was followed. The content of this document is precisely the same,
word for word, comma for comma, point for point as the Standing
Committee on Finance has printed in the ATC. Thank you, Chair.
[Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we have taken a vote. We
have taken a vote on the matter. The matter about the ATC has been
clarified. The point I can now deduce from what hon Labuschagne is
raising is that because two committees considered the same issues
the two committees should have printed separately in the ATC.

I beg this House to allow the business of the House to continue and
allow us to proceed with this, since it is in fact true that the
report was printed in the ATC, albeit not by both the committees
that considered the matters. We will find out why and how it comes
about that when two committees consider the same report one is
printed in the ATC and the other one is not printed in the ATC, and
get back to the House. I shall now proceed to put the question to
the House. Hon Essack?
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, I apologise most profusely. Then I
must ask if that be the case and your ruling, what is the
circumstance on the declaration? [Interjections.] I’m addressing the
Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]

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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The ... Hon Labuschagne said there was
no point of declarations. I can let her repeat herself because ...
[Interjections.] ... No, order! Yes. Can I allow this House to
continue with its business, hon Van Lingen? Hon De Beer and the hon
Chief Whip are showing us that in fact the report was printed in the
ATC. I have said that I will look into the reason why the second
committee’s report which is identical to this report – since that
seems to be the issue which is holding this House up – was not also
printed in the ATC.

If the House says that we should allow for declarations in terms of
this motion, I shall be happy to do so. Does the House want to make
declarations before we take the vote on motion one, because we dealt
with the amended version of motion one?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: We have got the three motions and then on the
order of the day we have consideration of the report of the fiscal
framework. If you deem it fit for us not to make a declaration now,
will we be allowed to make a declaration once we get to the order of
the day?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ma’am, I did ... I did ... and I’m
going to be very slow ... Order, order! I did say that provinces ...
members can make their declarations. It is the hon Labuschagne who
did not see the point to continue ... [Inaudible.] ... with that. I
have just put that same question to the House, as to whether the

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House wants to make declarations. I have not closed the door on
declarations. So I do not wish to be misunderstood. If members wish
to use their three minutes to make declarations, they are free to do
so now. Does any member wish to make a declaration? We are still on
the first motion. None? Okay, I’m going to take the vote on motion
one. [Interjections.] No, hon member, let’s be very clear. There is
a motion. You proposed an amendment to the motion. I need to know
that the main motion which was amended is carried by this House so
that we can proceed, and that is the question I’m putting to this
House now. Will leaders of delegations please vote on motion one
unless you wish to make a declaration again on motion one after
proposing an amendment to it? Hon Labuschange, I really do not
understand now. Please take your ...

Declarations of Vote:
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you Chair, I understand now that I am
allowed to make a declaration on the motion. Chair, I want to put it
to the House that the Western Cape does not support the fact that
the motion is going to be carried in the House, based on the fact
that – in the ATC as hon De Beer alluded to – it is printed in the
ATC as the report of the Standing Committee on Finance on the 2016
Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals dated 8 March, and the report
that’s in front of us that’s not been printed in the ATC is the
report of the Select Committee on Finance on the 2016 Fiscal
Framework and Revenue. Therefore it should be printed in the ATC as
a separate report, otherwise it should have been indicated as a

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joint committee and the report simultaneously printed in the ATC to
both Houses.

Furthermore, I want to say in this declaration that I want to allude
to hon Michalakis’ proposal ... or that what we are doing in this
House at the moment is not fair because the precedent is being set
now today that – whenever in the next term – any report can be dealt
with in this House by putting the motion on the Order Paper knowing
that eight provinces will outvote one province. That is not a fair
practice in this House and we will take this up further, and it’s
not according to the Constitution. Thank you.

Question put. That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

AGAINST: Western Cape.

Mr J W W JULIUS: I humbly apologise for going back but can a
province vote yes on both? Can you support both? Obviously it’s not
the same, but one province voted the same on both.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I note what you are saying, hon member.
Hon members, all provinces have voted and therefore I declare that

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the motion has been agreed to in terms of section 65 of the
Constitution.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

APPROVAL IN WHOLE THE DETERMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
OF SOUTH AFRICA OF THE RATE OF SALARIES AND ALLOWANCES PAYABLE TO
CONSTITUTIONAL COURT JUDGES OR JUDGES, AS IT APPEARS IN THE DRAFT
NOTICE AND SCHEDULE OF 23 FEBRUARY 2016, TABLED IN THE COUNCIL ON 3
MARCH 2016

(Draft Resolution)

APPROVAL IN WHOLE THE DETERMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
OF SOUTH AFRICA OF THE RATE OF SALARIES AND ALLOWANCES PAYABLE TO
MAGISTRATES, AS IT APPEARS IN THE DRAFT NOTICE AND SCHEDULE OF 23
FEBRUARY 2016, TABLED IN THE COUNCIL ON 3 MARCH 2016

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson of the Council, I hereby
move:

That the Council resolves, in terms of section 15(4)(b)(i) of the
Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, Act 47 of

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2001, as amended by section 15 of the Judicial Officers Act, Act
28 of 2003, to approve in whole the rate of salaries and
allowances payable to Constitutional Court Judges or Judges, as
determined by the President of the Republic of South Africa in
the Draft Notice and Schedule of 23 February 2016, which was
tabled in the Council on 3 March 2016.

Mr D L XIMBI: [Interjections.] Can I come over there?
[Interjections.] Hon Chairperson, in terms of section 2(1)(a) of the
Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act of 2001,
Constitutional Court Judges and Judges are entitled to annual
salaries and such allowances or benefits as determined by the
President from time to time by notice in terms of Gazette and
approved by Parliament in terms of section 2(4) of the Act.

Chairperson, section 2(4)(a) of the Act requires that a notice
contemplated in section 2(1)(a) of the Act be submitted to
Parliament for approval before publication.

On 2 March 2016, the Select Committee on Security and Justice
received a briefing from the Department of Justice and
Constitutional Development in relation to the proposed increases in
salaries of the Constitutional Court Judges and Judges, as set out
in Draft Notice and Schedule by the President that had to be
approved by the Houses of Parliament.

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The final recommendation for the salary increases of the
Constitutional Court Judges and other judges is 4,4% with effect
from 1 April 2015.

The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the
Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(3)(b) of
the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, Act 47 of
2001, determining the rate at which salaries are payable to
Constitutional Court Judges and Judges annually with effect from 1
April 2015, referred to it, recommends that the Council approve the
said Draft Notice and Schedule. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ximbi, does your report just cover
both?

Mr D L XIMBI: No, Ma’am. I can go to the Magistrates, Ma’am.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you.

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, section 12(1)(a) of the Magistrates Act,
Act 90 of 1993, spells out the procedures for determining the
salaries of magistrates. Magistrates are entitled to such salaries,
allowance or benefits as determined by the President from time to
time by notice in terms of Gazette after taking into consideration
the recommendation of the Independent Commission for the
Remuneration of Public Office Bearers, established under section 2

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of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office
Bearers Act, Act 92 of 1997, and approved by the President in terms
of subsection 3. Section 12(3)(a) provides for such a notice as
contemplated in section 12(a), a notice issued under subsection 1(a)
must be submitted to Parliament for approval before publication
thereof.

On 2 March 2016, the Select Committee on Security and Justice
received a briefing from the Department of Justice and
Constitutional Development in relation to the proposed increases in
the salaries of the magistrates, as set out in a Draft Notice by the
President that had to be approved by both Houses of Parliament.

For this year, the final recommendation was the following: Firstly,
5,5% from the position of the special grade chief magistrate, to the
position of the chief magistrate; secondly, 6% from the position of
the senior magistrate to the position of the magistrate. Therefore,
the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the
Draft Notice and Schedule in terms of section 12(3) of the
Magistrate Act of 1993. That is Act 90 of 1993, Chairperson,
determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates
annually with effect from 1 April 2015, referred to it, recommends
that the Council approve the said Draft Notice and Schedule. Thank
you very much, Chairperson. Thanks a lot.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you.

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Debate concluded.

Question put on the second motion on the Order Paper. That the
motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, kwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

Question put on the third motion on the Order Paper. That the motion
be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:

Democratic transformation programmes

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Mr M J Mohapi (Free State: ANC) asked the Deputy President:

(1)

What
place

programmes
to

address

of

democratic

transformation

are

in

the challenges of (a) poverty, (b)

unemployment and (c) divisions of (i) race, (ii) class
and (iii) gender in order to enhance respect and unity
in the country (details furnished);

(2)

what

critical

role

is

played

by

the

Department

of

Arts and Culture in this regard;
(3)

whether the Government will have a summit on Racism in
order to address this issue; if not, why not; if so,
when?

CO110E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members, the
South African government’s programme to transform our society and
indeed to transform the economy of our country is clearly set out in
our National Development Plan, NDP. This plan - supported by the
majority of our people and indeed by many parties in our Parliament
- addresses the challenges that we face principally with poverty,
unemployment, as well as the divisions on the basis of race, class
and gender.

This plan addresses these challenges in a comprehensive manner. It
acknowledges that the divisions that our country faces are

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perpetuated by both racist and sexist attitudes and practises, by
unequal economic and social relations. The government has taken a
number of concrete steps to eradicate the material basis of racism,
sexism and class division in our country: By working to ensure equal
access to education; equal access to healthcare; housing; social
grants; and a number of other basic services that are available to
our people.

Government has also instituted a number of measures to redress
centuries of economic dispossession and exploitation. A number of
these measures include: Employment equity measures; land restitution
and land reform; Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment measures;
preferential procurement; the development of small and medium
enterprises; as well as the development of black industrialists,
which has just been approved by Cabinet.

On the issue of race, government has developed a draft national
action plan to combat racism and to also deal with the question of
racial discrimination, xenophobia and other related acts of
intolerance that continue to be practised in our country. All South
Africans have been invited to comment on the draft plan before 30
June 2016.

The Department of Arts and Culture has undertaken initiatives like
Mzansi Golden Economy programme, MGE, to address the challenges of
poverty and unemployment through the arts, culture and heritage

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sector. It has also organised community conversations and sectoral
engagements across our country to address issues of social cohesion
and nation building.

Through the Department of Arts and Culture, government has partnered
with the Moral Regeneration Movement, MRM, on a number of projects
that will help to build and enrich the moral and ethical substance
of our nation. All this is being done to address the challenges that
we continue to face.

The government, on its part, is not planning a national summit to
exclusively deal with racism. Instead, government is supporting a
range of initiatives that will address these societal challenges.
The National Summit on Social Cohesion that is being planned for
2018 will take stock of the progress that we would have made in
promoting social cohesion, including ridding our country of racism,
sexism, xenophobia and intolerance.

If we are to address the divisions of our society and build a united
nation, what we would have to do is work together. Social cohesion
is a national effort which will require that we must all take
collective action and also take personal responsibility as citizens
of this great nation.

Mong M J MOHAPI: Motsamaisi wa mosebetsi, ke tla kopa hore karabo ya
ka e be molemong wa baahi ba mapolasing; ke ka hoo ke tla bua ka

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Sesotho. Ke a leboha Motlatsa Mopresidente ka karabo ya hao.
Matsatsing a ho feta, e ne e le boingodiso bakeng sa dikgetho tsa
bomasepala tse tlang di re lebile, moo re ileng ra tswa letsholo le
ba bang ba baithaopi ho ya mapolasing a Parys le Kroonstad.

Baahi ba fanne ka lentswe la thoholetso tshebetsong ya mmuso, ebile
ba qolla ka bobatsi mosebetsi wa Mopremiri ntate Ace Magashule,
kwana Foreistata, ka ho netefatsa hore ho na le ntshetsopele ya
metse ya mapolasing. Ho buuwa ka sebaka se bitswang Diyatalawa, mane
haufi le Qwaqwa. Fela, tseo e leng dintlha tseo ba di hlahisitseng,
ke hore: Le hoja ba bona kgatelopele maphelong a bona, ho ntse ho e
na le kgaello e ntseng e le teng. Kgaello ena e bakwa ke bofuma,
tlhokeho ya mosebetsi, tlhokeho ya matlo le tse ding tsa
ditshebeletso, jwaloka metsi le motlakase. [Kena hanong.]
(Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, I would like to ask that my response be
in the interest of farm dwellers, that is why I am going to speak
Sesotho. Thank you, Deputy President, for your response. We recently
had voter registration for the upcoming local elections, whereby we
went out to campaign with some of the volunteers and visited farms
in Parys and Kroonstad.

The citizens have commended the work of government and clearly
highlighted the work that has been done by the Hon Premier Ace
Magashule in the Free State, by ensuring that there is development

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in rural areas. They talked about a place called Diyatalawa, near
Qwaqwa. But, the issues they raised were that though they see
development in their lives, there are still shortages that exist.
These shortages are as a result of poverty, unemployment, lack of
housing and other services such as water and electricity.
[Interjections.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon Mtileni!
Are you making a point of order?

Mr V E MTILENI: Ja! Rising on a point of order: I can see that the
hon member is deliberating, making a very long speech, ...
[Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank you very
much. That is not a point of order. Please take your seat!
[Interjections.

Mr V E MTILENI: ... instead of posing a straight forward question.
He has taken much of your time now. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Please take
your seat! That is not a point of order!

Mr V E MTILENI: But were you aware that he has already taken much of
your time? [Interjections.]

9 MARCH 2016

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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Please take
your seat, now!

Attention hon members: Members have two minutes to make whatever
points, and to have given us a supplementary question within those
two minutes. You have 41 seconds left!

Mong M J MOHAPI: Modulasetulo, ke a leboha. Ke tse ding tsa ditshupo
tse bontshang hore ba bang ba baahi ha ba tsotelle bohlokwa ba
maphelo a batho ba bo rona ba mapolasing.

Motlatsa Mopresidente, potso e bileng teng ke hore: Na ke eng e re
tla e etsa hoba ba bang ba batho ba mapolasing, ba ntse ba
hatelletswe ke boramapolasi ba basweu? Hape potso e leng teng ke
hore: Na re kgutlisa jwang seriti sa ba bang ba ntseng ba na le
bothata bono?

Ntle le mono, re reng ka twantsho ya bosoto ya batho ba borona ba
ntshuwang ka mahahapa mapolasing ao ba dulang ho ona? Ya ho qetela:
Re etsang hobane boholo ba bona ba ne ba bile ba tjho hore le
dikgethong ba a batla ho ya, empa ho ya ka tlhekefetso eo ba e
fumanang, ba wele moya? Potso e leng teng ke hore: Na ke eng eo re
ka e etsang kapa eo Mopresidente, ofisi ya hae, le wena le ka e
etsang ho tshehetsa batho bao ho kgutlisa tshepo ho bona?

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MODULASETULO WA NCOP: Morena, o na le sebaka sa metsotso e mebedi ho
botsa potso ya tlatseletso e le nngwe; wena o botsitse tse nne. Ke
kopa hore Ntlo ena e ke e tsebe, e be e hlomphe melawana ya yona.
(Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson, thank you. These are some of the
indications that some of the citizens do not care about the
importance of the lives of our fellow citizens who live in the
farms.

Deputy President, the question is: What is it that we can do for
some of the people who are farm dwellers who are still being
oppressed by white farmers? Another question is: How can we restore
the dignity of some of those who still have this problem?

Besides that, what are we saying regarding the struggle to fight
against the cruelty towards our people, who are forcefully removed
from the farms where they live? Lastly, what are we going to do
because the majority of them were saying that they do want to go to
the elections, but because of the abuse they have experienced, they
have lost all hope? The question is: What is it that we can do or
that the President, his office, and you can do to support those
people in order to restore their hope?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member,
you have two minutes to ask one supplementary question; you have

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asked four. I am asking this House to know and also respect its own
rules.]

In short, hon members: You have two minutes to make your
supplementary questions but each member is allowed only one
supplementary question. Please do not do what hon Mohapi has done by
asking four supplementary questions, because the Deputy President
will have a limited time to respond to one supplementary question.

Hon Deputy President, you are on the floor!

MOTLATSA MOPRESIDENTE: Modulasetulo, ke lebohela potso eno. Ntho ya
bohlokwa eo re tlamehileng hore re e hlokomele ke ena ya hore: Eya,
re ntse re tseba hore haholoholo mapolasing, ho ntse ho na le
kgatello e tswelang pele. Ehlile batho ba haeso ba ntse ba tshwerwe
ka tsela e bohloko ka nnete.

Jwale, ntho e hlokahalang hona mono ke hore ha diketsahalo tseno tsa
ho hloriswa ha batho ba habo rona di etsahala mapolasing, kapa kae
kapa kae, batho bao ba hokahane le mekgatlo ya bona. Ehlile,
mekgatlo ya batho ba habo rona ke yona e tlamehileng hore e eme e
lwanele ditokelo tsa batho bano. Mmuso o kgona ho ema ka mora batho,
o thuse batho, haeba ditletlebo tseno di tla hlahiswa pepeneneng, re
di bone, re di tsebe.

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Hangata re utlwa fela ho ntse ho buuwa hore ka mona ho tjena, ka
mane ho tjenana. Ntho e hlokahalang ke hore ditaba di behwe
pepeneneng. Haeba bao ba nang le mapolasi ba hlorisa batho ba heso,
re tshwanetse hore re ba tsebe hore ke bomang, re tsebe ho sebedisa
melao ya naha ena. Re na le Molaotheo o kgonang ho sireletsa
setjhaba. Ha re sebediseng melao ya rona, re sebediseng mafapha a
rona a mmuso, hore tsena di kgone ho sireletsa batho ba habo rona di lwanele batho bano.

Ehlile, mekgatlo ya rona – ekaba mekgatlo ya dipolotiki, kapa yaba
mekgatlo ya baahi – e tlamehile hore e eme ka maoto e thuse bano ba
sa kgoneng hore ba itwanele. Ehlile, mokgatlo oo wa hao, ona o
tshwereng naha ena, ke ona o tlamehileng hore o tsamaele batho pele
ka nnete, ka makala a ona; o shebisise hantle hore batho ba heso ba
tshwerwe jwang. Ha re sa etse jwalo, kgatello ya batho ba habo rona
e tla nne e tswele pele.

Ba bang ba di etsa ka lekunutu ntho tsena. Ba di etsa bosiu re sa
tsebe, re sa bone! Ehlile, re batla hore bano ba jwalo ba tlalehwe,
ba behwe pepeneng - re ba bone, re ba tsebe - hore molao o kgone ho
sebetsana le bona. Re na le melao e ka kgonang hore e sebetsane le
bona, e ba kenye tseleng, e ba lokise haebe ba etsa ntho tse
tswileng tseleng. Ke a leboha. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs
follows.)

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[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, thank you for the question. An
important thing that we must be aware of is this: Yes, we are well
aware that, particularly in the farms, discrimination still exists.
Our people are still being ill-treated.

Now, what is needed is that when these incidents of our people being
persecuted in the farms - or anywhere else - happen, our people must
contact their organisations. Our civic organisations are the ones
that must fight for the rights of our people. Government can stand
behind people to help them if such complaints are made public, so
that we witness and know about them.

We often only hear of some situations here and there. What is needed
is that issues must be made public. If those who own farms ill-treat
our people, then we must know who they are so that we can use the
laws of this country. We have a Constitution that is able to protect
the people. Let us use our laws as well as government departments,
so that they can protect our people – and fight for our people.

Actually, our organisations – whether political parties, or civic
organisations – must stand up and fight for those who are not able
to fight for themselves. Actually, your own party that is governing
this country is the one that should really be leading the people,
with its own spheres, carefully monitoring how our people are being
treated. If we do not do so, the oppression of our people will
always continue.

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Some do these things in private. They do them at night while we do
not know and are unable to see them! Actually, we want such people
to be reported, and be exposed – so that we can see and know them –
so that the law can deal with them. We have laws that can be able to
deal with them, that can call them to order, that can correct them
if they are doing things that are out of order. Thank you.]

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon chairperson, Hon Deputy President, the original
question is indeed a little bit packed, but I will concentrate on
just one aspect of the question as my follow up. The social spending
of the country is estimated to be around 60% of the total Budget of
the country. The social programmes are said to be having an impact
in poverty reduction, but the Gini coefficient of the country has
kept on sliding downwards. Today it is estimated to be at around
0,69%. So, the gap is not getting better but is getting worse, yet
social spending is consuming about 60% of the Budget. What can you
say about these social protection programmes in terms of their
impact in the Gini coefficient of the people of South Africa?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madame Chair, I guess if the government of the
Republic of South Africa had not embarked on the type of social
protection programmes that it has embarked upon, the Gini
coefficient of our country would be a lot worse than what it is.

It is generally agreed to that the progress that has been made in
the reduction of poverty in our country - in terms of lifting a

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number of our people out of poverty - has contributed to making sure
that the Gini coefficient of our country does not go much higher
than where it is now.

A number of measures have to be taken to make sure that we see a
greater improvement, and it has to do with the reduction of
inequality in our country. Many measures are being taken, and one of
those is income inequality. There continues to be income inequality
in our country and there continues to be asset poverty in our
country. [Interjections.]

These are measures that we are addressing. Right now, the government
is involved in a process - which is government initiated - in which
a number of role players who are social partners are participating
in, for addressing the issue of a national minimum wage.

In many countries where minimum wage has been instituted, it has led
to an improvement in the Gini coefficient. We can quote a number of
countries. Brazil happens to be one of those countries where, after
the national minimum wage was instituted, the Gini coefficient then
improved. So, inequality started reducing.

We are looking at a number of measures; we are not standing still.
We are looking at various measures to improve the quality of life of
our people, to also reduce inequality, and in the end, to eradicate

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poverty in South Africa. So, that is one of the many measures that
are being taken.

The improvement of education is going to directly lead to an
improvement of the Gini coefficient. And, of course, the performance
of our economy: Once the economy starts performing at higher levels,
we should be able to see a greater improvement. A combination of all
these measures will in time lead to the reduction of our Gini
coefficient. I am confident about that and it is going to happen.

We live in a country of great opportunity. All we have to do is to
grasp those opportunities in a committed way - without theorising,
without hallucinating - and deal in a very practical way, the ways
of improving the lives of our people. That is what the ANC is
committed to! [Applause.]

Dr Y C VAWDA: Through you hon Chair, hon Deputy President, in South
Africa we have a huge problem that is facing us regarding racial
divide. This racial divide is based largely on the huge socioeconomic discrepancy that exists in this country. When we make
attempts at present to solve these problems - working within the
confines of the very same socio-economic systems that were
established predemocracy - what we do is continue to promote the
divide that presently exist.

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What we are saying is that these extreme disparities require extreme
solutions. We need to look in South Africa as matter of urgency in
order to redress the socio-economic divide and to address the issue
of racism which is raising its head in a very concerning manner. We
see what occurs at present on our campuses in this country.

What we need is to look very seriously at issues that would assist
us to redress the socio-economic disparities. These include: The
issue of land; the issue of salaries; and the issues that would help
to raise the standard of people in this country. When that happens:
Then, we will begin to see how our people will come together, and we
will seriously begin nation building in this country, which is what
we need as a matter of urgency.

What is the government going to do to ensure that we redress these
issues, taking very extreme measures in the short term?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, the government is hard at work to
deal precisely with the issues that the hon member has cited. We are
at work to address the issue of land. Land is being addressed in a
focused manner. Many of our people are hungry for land. Land remains
a key challenge that we as South Africans must all face. We are
using a number approaches and programmes to address the land
question.

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There is Land Restitution subprogramme - through which a lot of
money has already been paid out to give back the land that was taken
from our people - within the confines of our Constitution. The
constitutional parameters are being utilised to deal with the land
question.

There is Land Reform programme in which the Department of Rural
Development and Land Reform is precisely busy with all that. At the
agricultural level, a number of our people who want to work the land
are being given assistance. Of course, more can be done and should
be done. We are committed to do precisely that.

We are also focusing on a number of other things that are going to
economically empower our people, and as I said earlier, education is
one of those. Education continues to occupy fairly important place
in the budgetary process of our country.

Health is another area. We are doing a lot to deal with the
historical imbalances that we inherited. Remember we did not inherit
a clean sheet. We inherited a history of dispossession, a history of
racial division, and a history of oppression and exploitation. What
we needed to do was to deal with those issues.

We are essentially dealing with three things at one go. We are
dealing with our past: Trying to correct that past; and redress that
past. We are also dealing with our present: But, as we deal with our

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present; we also have to focus our eyes on the future. Hence, the
National Development Plan which will take us to 2030. This is so
that in 2030, South Africa should be a completely different country
from what it is today.

We have a long term plan. We don’t just have a present day plan. We
are dealing with all the challenges that span the entire landscape
of South Africa. On a daily basis, we are dealing with every issue
that you can even begin to think of. Why are we doing that? We are
doing this so that we can deliver a better life to all our people.
That is what we are doing with a lot of obsession, a lot of focus
and a lot of determination. That is what this government is all
about.

Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, Your Excellency, the Deputy President,
just by way of follow up, one would like to know: Whether - in the
process of addressing these challenges, such as poverty,
unemployment and divisions in terms of race, class and gender there is sufficient collaboration between the government departments
and co-ordination? One would like to know the extent to which
government is enjoying the support and co-operation of non-state
actors or nongovernmental organisations? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madame Chair, as the government executes its
programmes, particularly in relation to implementing the National
Development Plan, it continues to mobilise the broad section of

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South African society in various formations. It continues to seek
the support of civil organisation - nongovernmental organisations.
Many of them do turn to coy less around programmes of government.

To this end, we have set up a number of institutions – the National
Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, is one of those –
where institutions or formations are able to meet together to
discuss a number of important issues that impact on the lives of our
people as a whole. We also take out time to meet with the trade
union movement.

We work at close range with a various trade union federations to
discuss matters of great importance. Soon, the President will be
meeting the various leaders of trade union federations. In fact,
that will take place next week or so. Recently, the President has
had extensive discussions with business leaders and their various
business organisations.

The president continues to meet on an ongoing basis with the
traditional leaders of our country as well - sporting bodies, you
name it! The President and the government – the government in fact,
through various departments - continue to work with our people
through the various imbizos and through various consultation foras.

So, the government knows that it cannot act alone: It cannot
implement various measures and interventions that need to be

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embarked upon to change the lives of our people for the better. It
works with civil society. It works with business. It works with
trade unions. It works with traditional leaders and a whole host of
other fellow South Africans. This is a government that is committed
to a consultative process of government.

We believe that in order to achieve the goals of the NDP, and to act
in terms of the values and principles that are set out in our
Constitution, we should indeed act in context. We happen to believe
that if we are to change things in our country, we must work
together. Working together has become part of our deoxyribonucleic
acid, DNA, as South Africa.

Many South Africans desire and wish that we should all work together
to redress the imbalances of the past and to make sure that our
people get a better life. This is the key hallmark of how we as
South Africans need to work, and how need to approach the challenges
that we have as a nation. Thank you Madame Chair.

Measures to address wage inequalities

2.

Mr O J Sefako (North West: ANC) asked the Deputy President:

What (a) measures and (b) plans are in place to address wage
inequalities (details furnished), considering the fact that the
socio-economic

effects

of

this

challenge

impinge

upon

South

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Africa’s economic development as a result of labour unrest and
instability?

CO113E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon members. Wage
inequality has its roots in the systematic dispossession, the
marginalisation and the exploitation of black South Africans over
many decades. Various measures were put in place, including
legislation such as the Job Reservation Act and so on, to institute
a culture and a system of wage inequality in our country. Wage
inequality in our country that we continue to grapple with has its
origins from our racist past and this is precisely what we have to
deal with. The good thing is that all South Africans agree, in fact
most South Africans agree that we must move away from wage
inequality and move to a dispensation where we rid our country of
the determination of wages along exploitative and racist ways.

Since 1994 the government has been working with its social partners
to address economic inequality, unemployment and poverty. It is for
this reason that government has invested significantly in education
and skills development. It has promoted employment equity and BEE,
and it has sought to take a number of actions and measures to
protect the vulnerable people in our country, particularly workers
in this regard.

Among the mechanisms currently being pursued to address wage
inequality is to establish a national minimum wage. Deliberations

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are currently underway in Nedlac and they are now beginning to focus
on the structure and the level of the national minimum wage. All
parties and social partners in Nedlac have accepted and agreed to
the need for a national minimum wage in South Africa. That was like
a milestone event, that everybody now agrees and has embraced the
notion that South Africa should have a national minimum wage.
Alongside other measures, the national minimum wage can contribute
significantly to reducing wage inequality by raising the income of
the lowest paid workers.

At the same time, if properly designed, this national minimum wage
can stimulate economic activity by increasing demand for goods and
services in our economy. It can act as a great impetus to economic
growth in our country because lowly paid workers will now have
additional income which can be disposable, which they can spend on a
number of goods and services.

That is why the current deliberations amongst the social partners
are on the level at which to set the national minimum wage are so
important. While the national minimum wage needs to make a
meaningful difference in the lives of the lowest paid workers, we
need to ensure that economic growth and job creation are also
sustained. All social partners have committed themselves to conclude
these deliberations as soon as possible and without any delay. Right
now, as I speak, those partners are meeting at the Nedlac task team

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level and they are deliberating on the level of the national minimum
wage.

I am hopeful that we will have success and we will able to have a
national minimum wage which hopefully should be broadly acceptable
to all social players and partners in our country. Thank you madam
Chair.

Mr O SEFAKO: Thank you Deputy President. In many instances, the wage
inequalities are as a result of high exploitation of workers,
particularly the farm workers and factory workers who happen to be
casual and temporary.

The Labour Relations Amendment Act, 2014, ushered hope and
inspirations to the labour sector and South Africa in general, that
indeed it is going to allay the subjectivity to this wage inequality
that is making the poor workers the walking and talking objects. The
question is, what is it that South Africa is doing to ensure that
such behaviour is not continued so that the workers can indeed end
up also enjoying the wealth of this country? Thank you very much,
Chair.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The government has, for quiet a while now been
taking active measures to address the plight of working people
particularly the lowest paid workers in our country, and to this end
a number of sectors in our economy are covered by sectorally

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determined minimum wages. Right now, up to 46% are covered workers,
that is, are covered by sectorally determined minimum wages, 32% are
covered by negotiated minimum wages and 22% are not covered at all.
The government is concerned about this and it is for this reason
that these sectoral minimum wages were set in place, particularly
for farm workers, domestic workers and a number of other workers who
are at the bottom of the income rung.

Government will continue to seek ways to protect working people
through the Labour Relations Act and through a number of other
measures and regulations because this government wants to improve
the lot of working people, particularly the vulnerable workers in
our economy and it will continue to do so. As I said earlier, the
institution of a national minimum wage is going to take this
protection to much higher level because once a national minimum wage
is set, no worker, except if there are going exemptions, which will
be agreed upon by the social partners, no worker will earn below the
minimum wage that will have been set. That, in more ways than one,
will have set in place one of the strongest protection measures for
working people in our country and indeed if you look at their
situation the conditions of employment have also improved quite
dramatically over the years. The issue of easy dismissal of workers
is no longer what it used to be like in the past.

Safety has also improved quite a lot and there is greater protection
for workers when they are working in unsafe areas. Government has

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been taking active steps, apart from focusing on the incomes of
workers, it has also been looking at the conditions of employment of
those workers. So measures are in place and they will continue to be
improved.

Let me end up by saying, we are fortunate to have a very strong
trade union movement in our country which has been acting as the
shield and the guardian of many workers. Working together with
government, we have been able, with the trade unions in our country,
to make great advances to give working people in our country better
conditions of employment and as I say, much more still needs to be
done when a national minimum wage is in place, things would have
moved forward a great deal. Thank you madam Chair.

Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke a leboga Modulasetilo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy President, it is not because we enjoy
repeating ourselves in the House. Millions of South Africans out
there are exploited. Some of them are paid with liquor, some are
paid with vegetables and I think that one you know very well. Most
of them are unable to put bread on the table of their families, let
alone to pay fees for their children’s studies. We cannot sit here
and discuss minimum wage for more than 50 years, it is time now that
South Africans know when... [Interjection.] ...

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Yes... during your Freedom Charter adoption, you must go back to
your history ...

When will South Africans, especially the working class, know when
will the government implement the minimum wage? We just need time,
date and a day. Please Deputy President, we cannot sit here and be
told about Nedlac, social cohesions and all those things. We need
implementation now. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair. With the greatest respect to the
member, it is through social cohesion and Nedlac that we will have a
national minimum wage. This government is not going to legislate a
minimum wage on its own on a unilateral basis without moving along
with its social partners. It is the agreement that will flow out of
negotiations, deliberations and discussions with the social partners
that will yield this national minimum wage that you are so eager to
have. As they say it takes two to tango. In this case it takes a
number of social partners to go to a national minimum wage tango and
we will get there, there is no single entity or party or partner in
the deliberations who is stopping progress. The parties, as I speak
now...

...ausi wa me, ba kopane mme ba ntse ba buisana. Ke kopa o itse gore
dilo tse di botlhokwa di tsaya nako... [ ...my sister, they have met
and have been holding discussions. Please bear in mind that
important things takes time...]

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Ms T J MOKWELE: ...but you said so last year, you must update.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Fa e kabo go ya ka nna, nkabo e le kgale ke e
tsentse tirisong ... [If it was up to me, I would have implemented
it long time ago...]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ...but we do not work like that, we do not
work on a unilateral basis, we work collectively and we are going to
get an agreement on the national minimum wage ...

Ms T J MOKWELE: When?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you madam Chair.

Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you Chairperson. [Interjection.] Hon Deputy
President, firstly I do not agree with you on the minimum wage,
before I ask my question to use up my two minutes. I think it will
increase unemployment because it only caters for the employed. You
are a businessman yourself, if you have to pay more you will hire
less, that is business. The President said it himself, the economy
must create jobs. I think it is a bit reckless and not well
researched to implement it on a full scale. We should really look at
the impact it will have. Nevertheless Deputy President, the
projected economic growth stands at 0.8%. I think the President
advised last week, down from 2% for 2015 and 1,5% as per the medium
term budget of October.

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BBBEE can only work if jobs are created and I think you have to
agree with me on that one. We can only create jobs if there is
economic growth. Do you agree that without economic growth, BBBEE
and other policies of government will work slow or not at all?
Because we need to be fair and honest to South Africans and tell
them that there is a projected economic growth that does not look
good. But we stand here and say we are going to create 6 million
jobs ...

The CHAIRPERSDON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, Your time.

Mr J W W JULIUS: ... do you agree with that ... [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let me say, there is ample research that
proves that depending on the level where you set your minimum wage,
once it has been set it can actually lead to the improvement of the
income of a number of people. For a while, it is possible that there
could be job shedding. But, if you have set the minimum wage at a
level where it can put more money into the pockets of the lowest
earning workers, what that does is that they use that extra money to
buy more goods and services. That then can lead to more demand and
more people will then get employed. When that happens, it then
begins to fuel another spade of growth in your economy. That has
been done and tested in other economies. So we are not sucking eggs
or hot air, it is something that has been tested elsewhere.
[Applause.]

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Let me assure you, in traversing this route of moving towards the
minimum wage, all the social partners are walking this road together
and agree that we should have a national minimum wage. The issue is
going to be the level. We are enjoying a high level of expert advice
from the International Labour Organisation, from countries such as
Brazil, Germany, the United Kingdom, Malaysia, you name them. We are
traversing this road with our trade unions, social partners,
business and government. We are united in saying if we craft it at a
level where we can promote job creation as well as, to a large
extend, try and ameliorate massive job losses, we could see greater
demand of goods and services in our economy.

Coming back to the issue of growth and Broad Based Black Economic
Empowerment, the two are not mutually exclusive. It is not a chicken
and egg situation, what should come first. If we are serious about
correcting the imbalances of the past, we have to embrace Black
Economic Empowerment, because if we do not, we will not have the
growth that we dream about and in fact we could have a regression.
Because those who are not empowered, then do not become part and
parcel of the economic growth that the country should have. What
needs to be done is that we have to embrace both and say we are
going to take these challenges with the scruff of its neck. We are
going to move forward with Black Economic Empowerment and we are
also going to generate growth. If we take determined good measures
and interventions, it is through that, that our economy will begin
to grow. One of the reasons why we have not seen so much growth is

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because many of our people remain excluded from being owners of our
economy and active participants in our economy, they are just
bystanders or labourers. Unleash the levers of our economy and we
will see growth. Thank you very much.

Ms T MOTARA: Deputy President, notwithstanding that the sector
determination process is not concluded, there are wage inequalities
as a result of sectors that are not adhering to the current laws.
What remains a pressing issue is the enforcement of the current
labour laws and wage laws. Government, particularly the Department
of Labour, has employed labour inspectors to monitor the
implementation and adherence to these laws but in most instances it
is not taking place, especially in farms and the informal sectors of
the society. What would your response be, especially considering
that the state has an increased wage bill and these officials have
the responsibility to do what they are employed to do? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One of the challenges we are faced with as the
parties and the social partners who are negotiating the minimum wage
is enforcement. How, for instance, is the national minimum wage
going to be enforced? We will obviously want to come up with
solutions, bearing in mind the experience that we currently have.
You are absolutely correct hon member that our experience currently
is not the greatest because many employers and many companies are
not adhering to the sectoral determinations of wages that have been
put in place. Of course there is a lot that we still need to improve

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in the state apparatus or state machinery. One of the things we have
to improve is having people who are going to enforce the laws and
the regulations of our country.

In my book it does not necessarily mean that you have to employ
millions of people. You just have to employ a sufficient number of
people who are going to be focused. In my ways it could just mean
redeployment of people who are currently in the state sector, who
are going to be more focused and it is possibly going to be an issue
of, not only redeployment, but their management and their own focus.
If we can do that we will be able to get a number of more companies
to adhere. It is when there is greater adherence, particularly to
the national minimum wage that we will begin to see the benefits
that we are talking about and the benefits of people earning higher
wages and having more disposable income to a point where they begin
to become consumers and the demand goes up. More employment is
created and the companies become more profitable, they pay more
taxes and we are able to have more people who can act as focused and
active inspectors to ensure that there is full adherence. It is in
the state sector that we have to manage things. Let me say, it is
not like the wheels are coming off and things are terrible and
worse. We are improving on an ongoing basis. We see improvement as
we look closely at the management of processes in government we see
a consistent improvement, and that is what we should rely on. We are
going to get better, even to manage adherence and compliance to the
national minimum wage. And that is the reason why many of us are so

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looking forward to the institution of a national minimum wage
because there will be better enforcement. Thank you madam Chair.

Inter-governmental Technical Working Group: Food Security

3.

Mr C F B Smit (Limpopo: DA) asked the Deputy President:

(1)

Whether the Inter-governmental Technical Working Group
that was constituted in 2014 to develop a National Food
and Security Plan received any written submissions; if
not,

what

measures

are

in

place

to

encourage

more

participation in the consultation process; if so,

(2)

whether

the

consideration;

submissions
if

not,

why

have
not;

relevant details?

been
if

so,

taken
what

are

into
the

CO115E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chair, the Intergovernmental Technical
Working Group was reconstituted in 2015 to develop a comprehensive
national Food and Nutrition Security Implementation Plan for South
Africa. The technical working group has utilised diverse mechanisms
to consult with key stakeholders and it has received quite a number
of submissions. The inputs received from a range of stakeholders
have been incorporated into a draft plan.

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Further consultations will be conducted with provincial government
as well as key stakeholders prior to the finalisation of the plan.
This work is critical, particularly in the light of the current
drought in our country that is having a severe impact on food
availability. The development of this draft plan underscores our
government’s commitment to ensure food security, particularly for
the most vulnerable. It has achieved good co-operation all round
because submissions have been made and we are hoping that there will
be further discussions and inputs as we move forward to have this
plan implemented. Thank you.

Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson through you to the hon Deputy
President, a consultative workshop was held on the Draft Policy
Implementation Plan and such a workshop for academia and civil
society was held on 16 and 17 March 2015 but only five organisations
were invited to this public input session.

In October 2015, the same five organisations were invited to the
workshop and yet again other interest groups and organisations such
as SA Human Rights Commission, SAHRC, Oxfam and Section 27 were
excluded. Furthermore, the process for written submissions for the
public was only open for three days. Deputy President, given the
ensuing drought and food insecurity crises that our country
currently faces, how committed is this working group to receiving
input and solutions from all South Africans? When and where will
South Africans be able to send their submissions to?

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, my information is that the
workshop that was held in September of 2015 was attended by 96
stakeholders. Now, that differs from what you are telling me and I
think both you and I can go and check and find out exactly what
happened but that is my information.

With regard to the government’s commitment, its commitment is total.
We held this workshop with a view to getting inputs and suggestions
from people of our country as organised through their various
formations, NGOs and so forth. The fact that we held this workshop
and invited a number of participants means that we are serious and
going beyond this.

We will be determined to implement the plan and the policy that will
flow out of this because as it is now, work is being done to
finalise all this. We are not going to rest on our laurels and not
implement what was properly discussed in that type of forum. Apart
from this, there is much more that we are doing, particularly when
it comes to addressing the question of drought.

We have addressed this issue in the Budget and there are a number of
steps that are being taken to make sure that we address the question
of drought. The Department of Social Development disaster respond
through its various feeding programmes will also be used in a number
of areas to alleviate the challenges and problems that will be faced
by our people more generally. I am please to say that through the

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school nutrition programme, we continue to make sure that the nine
million young people in our country do get a meal at school every
day.

This is one government and I know of no other that distribute and
feeds nine million young people every day for five days of the week.
[Applause.] No other government does that. That should be seen as a
determination on the part of government and equally, to have held a
workshop like this – a consultative workshop, means that we want to
involve as many participants as possible to come forward with views
and ideas so that we can work together to ensure that our people get
a better life. We are obsessed just about that to give South
Africans a better life. This is one of the ways that we are
determined to do it. Thank you.

Mr V E MTILENI:

Avuxeni, Xandla xa Phuresidente. [Good morning,

deputy President.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Ahee! [Good morning.]

Mr V E MTILENI: I raised my hand at first but I was not
acknowledged. [Interjections.] The question that I have now ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order. You are not the person who
sponsored the question. That person gets the first supplementary.
[Interjections.] Please go and read your Rules.

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Mr V E MTILENI: Mr Deputy President, for far too long, the
government have been confusing food security with food sovereignty.
Food security is the ability of the country to feed its citizens
while food sovereignty is the freedom of people to produce the food
they like, at any given time and the way they like it. My question
to you is: Do people have the freedom to produce the food they like?
Where and when?

Only two companies have control on seed, which is crucial for food
production. These companies are white owned and only a tiny minority
of white farmers produce food for the country. What risks does the
monopolisation of agriculture pose for our future prospects of food
security or food sovereignty?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chair, our government is committed to
ensuring that South Africa does not only have food security but also
food sovereignty. Food security is being ensured in a number of ways
and one of the ways as I was saying, is to make sure that people get
food - availability and access to food and their income levels must
be good enough so that they can be able to buy food. When it comes
to food sovereignty, the government has embarked on a number of
programmes.

The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the
Department of Rural Development and Land Reform has embarked on a
number of programmes. As we speak now, we are implementing the Agri-

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Parks Programme where we are getting a number of our people to to
get reconnected with farming - proper productive farming, that goes
just beyond subsistence. Through these Agri-Parks, we are getting a
number of small and medium farmers, farm holders to participate in
these AgriFarms.

As it is now, we aim to bring 120 000 hectares into production,
involving some 145 000 small and medium farmers. This we are
determined to do because we want them to get into the production
level of producing for our country and of course, we are also
focussing on the whole agro-processing sector. That is precisely
where we are also bringing in more and more black people. It is a
joy for us to hear and see black farmers producing poultry for
instance, millions and millions of chickens being produced by black
farmers.

As we go around the country, the government goes around to empower
those types of farmers. At the same time, we are also training a
number of young people in agriculture through various colleges - so
that they can become extension officers to go and support those
emerging farmers who are small, medium or large, with knowledge. The
government is also helping a great deal with seed and our cattle
distribution programme is also working very well in a number of
provinces.

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A lot is being done to revamp our agricultural base so that we have
food sovereignty. A lot is being done to make sure that there is
food security in our country. These we are doing because we know we
face the challenge. That is precisely the challenge that we have
spoken about. We are coming up with practical solutions. If you, hon
member, have better ideas - good ideas on how this can be done, we
invite you to come forward. Put ideas on the table; let’s work
together and get the job done. [Interjections.]

Ms B ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chairperson through you to hon Deputy
President, we appreciate government for acknowledging the drought
with seven provinces that have been declared drought disaster areas.
In spite of that a mere R1 billion has been allocated from the
national Budget for alleviation measures of which 187 million has
already been used for animal feed and more than 600 000 animals have
died at this point.

This makes it clear that the ANC does not understand the extent of
this drought crisis. Based on the mandate and conclusions of the
working group, have you, hon Deputy President, been in consultation
with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
to ensure that the drought is immediately declared a national
disaster in terms of section 23 and section 27 of the Disaster
Management Act? Thank you.

9 MARCH 2016

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Madam Chair, we continue in the executive
to hold discussions on the drought that our country is facing.
Various Ministers - not only the Minister of Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, but the Minister of
the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, the Minister
of Rural Development and Land Reform. All our Ministers, through the
cluster that is in government are keeping their eye on the
challenges that our country faces in relation to drought.

A number of meetings continue to take place with a number of farming
organisations. A number of farmers who have come and we discussed
this and the programmes and interventions that the government has
announced have been discussed at close range. Yes, the government
has voted R1,1 billion which is going towards increasing more water
availability. About half of that is going to go to borehole drilling
because our country, as we all know, is water scarce and that is
going to be deployed for making water available. At R300 million or
so, it’s going to be deployed towards cattle movement. The movement
of cattle from one area to another and about R187 million is going
to be utilised for cattle feed or animal feed.

In addition to all that, there are a number of government
institutions, for instance, the Land Bank. The Land Bank has just
announced that they have a pocket of money through the Industrial
Development Corporation, IDC, which is going to be made available to
finance farmers, particularly in the time of drought.

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Farmers are actually saying that what they now need are loans so
that they can start planting for the following year. They are saying
that we should give them the ability to have loans - either
guarantee them or give some measure of soft loans so that they can
have enough capital to plant. These are active measures that are
being taken on an ongoing basis to address the question of drought.

Now, you may well have better ideas and if you do, put them on the
table. Come forward and I say again, come forward, put your ideas on
the table. [Interjections.] These are the ideas that we have put on
the table and these are the ideas that are being embraced by people
who are in the business. [Interjections.] Let’s work together to
make this happen. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Chairperson ...

Mohl Motlatšamopresidente wa Repabliki ya Afrika-Borwa, ke kgopela
go tseba gore mananeo a go swana le Siyazondla, mo profenseng ya
Kapa Bohlabela, Siyavuna, mo KwaZulu-Natal, Masibuyele Emasimini, mo
Mpumalanga, Fetša Tlala, mo Limpopo le mananeo a mangwe a mantši a
go tšweletša dijo ka malapeng nageng ka bophara, le wona ke karolo
ya lenaneo la rena la bosetšhaba la tšhireletšego dijong le boipušo
dijong naa? (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

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[Hon Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, I would like
to know whether programmes like Siyazondla in Eastern Cape, Siyavuna
in KwaZulu-Natal, Masibuyele Emasimini in Mpumalanga, Fetša Tlala in
Limpopo and many other household food production programmes
countrywide are part of our integrated food security and nutrition
programme.]

MOTLATSA MOPORESIDENTE: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo, ke lebohe le
Leloko le Hlomphehang la Ntlo. Karabo ya ka ke hore mananeo ao
kaofela ha ona, Siyazondla, Siyavuna, Fetsa Tlala le a mang a
mangata, ke ona ao mmuso ona o etsang hore re sebedisane mmoho le
batho ba rona. Mananeo ao oohle, jwaleka Fetsa Tlala, e filwe
tjhelete e lekanang le R2,8 bilione hore e sebetsane le batho ba
heso ho qeta tlala. Mananeo a kang Letlole la Thuso ya Tshotleho ya
Setjhaba [Social Relief of Distress grant] le oona a sebetsana le
mesebetsi eo kaofela. Mmuso o na le mananeo a mangata a shebaneng le
komello eo re shebaneng le yona. O etsetsa hore bothata bo
tjametseng batho ba rona bo be bobebe le hore (Translation of
Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson. Let me also thank the
hon members of this House. My answer is that all those programmes,
Siyazondla, Siyavuna, Fetsa Tlala and many others, are the ones this
government uses in order to work together with our people. All those
programmes such as Fetsa Tlala have been allocated funds as much as
R2,8 billion to be used on behalf of our people in order to

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eradicate poverty. Programmes such as Social Relief of Distress
Grant also serve the same purpose. Government has many other
programmes aimed at the drought that we are facing today. It does so
in order to ease the burden that our people are faced with so that
... ]

Our people as a whole, who are struggling and suffering under the
current drought conditions, have a measure of alleviation from the
drought that we have. We should be grateful as South Africans, as I
am, that we have a responsive government - government which, when
realising that there are challenges that its citizens face, it is
able to respond. On the issue of drought and food security, this
government is responding on an active basis, on a daily basis, going
forward. Thank you.

Counselling facilities: persons using HIV/Aids self-test kits

4.

Ms E Prins (Western Cape: ANC) asked the Deputy President:

What

facilities

will

be

made

available

for

immediate

counselling for persons who make use of HIV/Aids self-test
kits (details furnished)?

CO131E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chair, hon members, the Department of
Health has not commenced with self-testing for HIV. However, selftest kits have recently been approved by SA Pharmacy Council and are

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now available over a counter in a number of retail pharmacists. It
is critical to highlight that the testing kits are to be used only
for screening. Those who screen positive must go to health
facilities to have the confirmatory test done.

A diagnosis of HIV can only be done once the second test analysed by
the relevant laboratory is also done. The Pharmacy Council is
currently finalising a standard operating procedure to ensure that
pharmacies provide appropriate information on the use of the testing
kits. We therefore encourage members of the public to use the
services of health, particularly the health call centre where they
can have their questions answered about the use of the testing kits
or the interpretation of the results that they may get.

The government itself continues to provide counselling services at
all public HIV testing sites. We therefore urge all South Africans
who are sexually active to test for HIV regularly. I thank you,
Madam Chair.

Ms E PRINS: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you please speak nearer to the
mike.

Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Deputy President if
there is government mechanism in place to ensure that there is

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compliance with the government practice of pre-test and post–test
counselling as well as proper disease management education to those
who choose to purchase self-help kits? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, hon members,, this is precisely
what I was addressing that the SA Pharmacy Council of SA is
currently finalising standard operating procedures, and as it does
so, the Department of Health is the department that will be
examining this very closely in order for us to work together and
have an operating procedure that will have efficacy, obviously
through its various centres around the country.

The Department of Health has systems that are in place for
counselling and testing which is a new phenomenon which we need to
deal with. The Department of Health is going to work at close range
with the Pharmacy Council to come up with all the procedures that
will enable people who bought the self-help kits to interface with
them in way that will also lead to proper usage, with the measure of
counselling availability as well as proper testing if they have
tested positively. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms N P MOKGOSI: Motlotlegi Modulasetilo, ke kopa go botsa Motlatsa
Moporesitente gore ...[Hon Chairperson, I would like to ask the
Deputy President ...]

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What are you doing as the government to dispel the wrong notions and
perceptions around HIV and Aids, such as the dangerous view that
sleeping with virgins cures HIV or that one popularly made by Mr
Zuma, that after having sex with an HIV positive person one can just
take a shower? Have you as the government scolded Mr Zuma for the
dangerous comments that he made, which have a capacity to mislead
the nation? Thank you.

Mr O SEFAKO: Hon Chair, the hon Mokgosi should address the President
of the Republic of South Africa properly as His Excellency, not just
a Mr. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Noted. Hon Mokgosi, hon Mr Zuma is the
President of the Republic.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chair, the issue of HIV is indeed been
driven in our country by the Department of Health, but actively
implemented by the SA National Aids Council, Sanac, a body that is
made up of various sectors in terms of various organisations that
span the length and the breadth of our country. The Sanac has come
up with very clear positions in its National Strategic Plan on our
approach as a nation on the challenge of HIV that we face.

The Sanac has achieved great success since 2009 when we turned the
whole issue of Aids around and began to distribute antiretroviral
drugs that also saved many lives. In the course of doing all that,

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the message has been very clear in terms of what causes Aids, its
prevention and spreading the message to sexually active people in
our country, particularly to young people as well.

So, that has never been in question. We have made sure, as Sanac
that we remain on point on message; we continue to do precisely that
and we continue to ramp up our activities as we continue to face new
challenges on the HIV front. We are also addressing a big issue of
Tuberculosis now, which is one of the challenges that we are facing.

In a few days we will also be launching a programme to address the
challenge that sex workers face and we are launching a very, very
good programme that is going to address all those challenges. So, on
an ongoing basis, there is a lot that we are doing of a positive
nature. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, may I ask the hon Deputy President
... [Interjections.]

Ms N P MOKGOSI: Chairperson, I’m standing on a point of order. Maybe
the Deputy President did not understand my question and therefore,
maybe I need to repeat it. My question was, have you as the
government scolded Mr Zuma for the dangerous comments he made
regarding HIV and Aids? [Interjections.] No, that was my question!

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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Order! Hon Mokgosi, that is not a
point of order! Hon Khawula, you are on the floor!

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, you are on the floor!

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, the hon Deputy President is saying
that the proper operating procedures are still going to be put in
place. That sounds very dangerous. My question then is: How has it
happened that there was an authorisation for the self-test kit
before the proper operating procedures are put in place, wasn’t that
putting the cart before the horse? I’m saying this because, this can
have very dangerous consequences from what I’m hearing what the
Deputy President has said. Were you maybe not in a rush to do what
was supposed to be second first and first to second?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, as I was saying, these operating
procedures are being finalised and they will soon be in place. The
SA Pharmacy Council having approved the utilisation and distribution
of these kits has had to come up with proper operating procedures
which are now in final stages and I’m sure that they are going to be
distributed soon. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Phasing out of SOEs

9 MARCH 2016
5.

Page: 66 of 114

Ms T G Mpambo-Sibhukwana (Western Cape: DA) asked the Deputy
President:

Whether the Government is committed to phase out the stateowned enterprises as announced by the President in his 2016
State-of-the-Nation Address; if not, what is the position
in this regard; if so, when will this process commence?CO137E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, hon members, the main challenge
facing our country is clearly the achievement of faster economic
growth, greater job creation and the reduction of poverty and
inequality.

Now, our state-owned enterprises, SOEs, can play and do play a
critical role as catalysts and drivers of investment and growth as
well as employment in the South African economy. A number of them
had been playing that role over the years. Many are well placed to
perform this role. However, some of these state-owned companies are
facing operational and financial challenges or lack proper
governance and management. Others are struggling to remain
profitable in very trying and difficult trading circumstances.

Working together with various Ministries and stakeholders, the
interministerial committee that I chair is currently seized with the
task of strengthening the economic, social and developmental role of
these state-owned enterprises. The interministerial committee is

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overseeing the implementation of the Presidential Review Committee
and it is doing so in a phased manner. It is particularly focusing
in the immediate term on the stabilisation and the consolidation of
a number of these state-owned companies. As President Jacob Zuma,
indicated in his state of the nation address, this process involves
a number of things that have to be done. These include: streamlining
some of these state-owned enterprises, sharpening their mandate,
rationalising them where is there is an overlap of mandates, and
phasing out those that are no longer relevant to our developmental
agenda.

The interministerial committee is attending to this as a matter of
priority but understanding that it demands transparency, broad
consultation and extensive research. We are confident that we will
achieve our objective of a strong, capable, efficient public sector
that plays a key and leading role in a number of cases in the
growing of our economy and the development of our people.

This is a work in progress and many of these state-owned enterprises
operate in rather difficult sectors of our economy. Sometimes they
operate in sectors of our economy that are given to cyclicality,
where, if the cycle turns, their own fortunes also turn. Sometimes
in turns negatively, and sometimes positively. A number of them are
now in the grip of the very challenging economic circumstances that
we are living under.

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We are confident that, once they are repositioned, once they have
prioritise their own operations, straighten out their governance
procedures and we have good management in place once in a number of
cases, we will be able to reposition many of these state-owned
enterprises.

A number of them continue to be treasure troves of our economy. A
number of them are like the silver that we should continue holding
on to as a nation. But we have decided that where some of them are
no longer relevant to our national mandate, they should be phased
out. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Deputy President, I would like you to
tell us what the details are regarding the ongoing performance
review of state-owned enterprises in terms of identifying
politically connected business groups that are out to capture
government institutions for their own personal gain. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The process of looking at the Presidential
Review Committee’s work and recommendations is going to involve
looking at the strategies that these SOEs have been pursuing. We are
going to look at improving their performance, look at their
governance and their business plans and all this is going to be done
in a very transparent and open manner. Where governance structures
and processes are weak and where they can be abused, we will address
those and straighten them out, so that they operate just in terms of

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good corporate governance processes and procedures and on an ethical
basis. This we will do because we want to avoid a situation where,
when they do business with whomever, they do so on a completely
independent and arm’s length basis.

Everyone should know that doing business with state-owned
enterprises will be a transparent process. It will be a process that
is driven by good corporate governance procedures, by ethical
behaviour. The rules that are set out in the charters of those
companies will have to be adhered to and followed. And we will want
to have boards that are independent and focused on living and
executing their mandates of those state-owned enterprises. That is
what this review process is going to be focusing on. Thank you,
Madam Chair.

Ms N P MOKGOSI: Hon Chair, it is not surprising that there are
state-owned entities that are not viable today. It is mainly due to
lack of clear industrial policy co-ordinating the role of the stateowned entities which are blinded by neo-liberal policies instead of
taking control of strategic sectors. There is undisputed historical
evidence to show that’s how nations’ industry .... My question to
you now is, what is the co-ordinating strategy for state-owned
entities to ensure that they contribute towards the same objective,
and what exactly does government want to achieve with the stateowned entities? Thank you.

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair [Laughter.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: Re a go kgatlha ne? [We excite you?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, [Laughter.]

Maloko a a tlotlegang lo a nkgatlha [Setshego.] ka dipotso tse lo di
botsang. [Hon members, your questions are exciting.] [Laughter.]

Madam Chair, what we want to achieve with our state-owned
enterprises? We want to have state-owned enterprises that will
execute our developmental mandate. State-owned enterprises that are
going to grow and contribute to the growth of our economy and
contribute to the creation of jobs and be state-owned enterprises
that are going to operate with good governance procedures and
processes. That is what we want to achieve. They must contribute to
the wealth of our country and growth of our economy.

These state-owned enterprises are owned by people of South Africa
and we must inject growth, proper processes and procedures into them
so that all of us can benefit from the work that they do. That is
what is important.

In doing so, and doing so clearly, we have to embark on a number of
measures. And that is why the interministerial committee is busy
with. It is at work looking at number of issues including their

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operating environment. We want to be able to create good and
commercial environment that are conducive to their operations. We
want to improve the performance of these state-owned enterprises so
that they can be profitable and contribute to employment and the
growth of our country. That is what we are focusing on.

Will we be able to achieve this? I am confident that we will be able
to achieve this. It’s all very well to say that you adhering to
neoliberal policies and so forth. In our view what really matters is
whether these state-owned enterprises can fulfil the developmental
mandate that we have.

I can give you a good example like Eskom. What did Eskom do in the
life of our country prior to 1994? The distribution and reticulation
of electricity was only for a few white people in our country.
Today, Eskom, a state-owned enterprise, has reticulated and
distributed electricity even to the rural areas where we never
thought electricity would go. [Applause.] Now that is what we want.
We look at our water boards. They are state-owned enterprises and
what are they doing? They are rolling out water to far-flung
villages. Our people in villages used to see these huge pipes ...

... tsa metsi di ba feta fela, jwale metsi a se a kena moo ba dulang
teng. [Mahofi.] [...of water passing by, but now water is available
in their homes.] [Applause.]

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So that is what we want.

Now, to us what matters is not whether the cat is black or what, we
want a cat that is going to catch mice. [Interjections.] We want our
state-owned enterprise to work for our people and, believe it or
not, we are making progress and we are changing lives. [Applause.]
The lives of our people are getting better on an on going basis.
Thank you, madam Chair.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy President, thank you
for being brave enough to acknowledge that some of the state-owned
enterprises are no longer ...

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Relevant.

Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Relevant, yes. Thank you for that.

I was just wondering, hon Deputy President, whether ... you
mentioned the processes to be followed and stuff like that. Can you
maybe just inform us about the criteria that you are going to use to
determine or identify the candidates that are going to be sold,
first of all? Obviously then — being a business man as I too am a
business man — can you maybe indicate the time frames that we are
looking at and what amount are you expecting to generate for the
fiscus? That is my question, Deputy President. Thank you.

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, in terms of crafting the
criteria, in terms of determining which state-owned enterprises will
fall into the no-longer-relevant category, the interministerial
committee is busy with that. We are discussing precisely that issue
and we have, to a large extent, already made quite a number of
advances. We have looked at which state-owned enterprises operate in
certain key sectors of our economy which operate in the weaker
sector of our economy. We have also looked at their profitability,
commercial efficacy and what contribution they make to our
developmental agenda. So we are looking at all of that and we should
finalise that criteria in time to come.

What is our time frame? Obviously we want to have this done as soon
as possible but, in terms of discussions, these things, particularly
because we are dealing with a cross-sectional number of departments,
tend to take time. We are working in a determined way with maximum
speed because this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

How much are we expecting to get? That is a process that the
interministerial committee will be looking at. We still need to
decide what to do with those SOEs that are no longer relevant to our
developmental agenda.

The important thing — as the President said in his state of the
nation address — is that those that are no longer relevant to our
developmental agenda will be phased out. That is an important

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statement that we should focus our attention on because in the end
it is of no use to continue flogging a horse that is no longer
running. So we are going to be looking at matters like that. Thank
you, madam Chair.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Thank you...

... kuphethe enye inkunzi ngoku Sekela Sihlalo, yinkunzi uthi
ayonkunzi le. [... there is now a new bull in the kraal, Deputy
Chairperson. There is, you do not think so?]

Can you protect me?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You may proceed, hon member.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Can you protect me?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected.

Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy Chair, Deputy President, in reviewing these
state-owned enterprises, streamlining them and so on, would you
consider those state-owned enterprises that are in provinces and
even those that are at local government level, because there is a
lot of duplication? Will the government consider those and if not
why not because the country is losing a lot of money due to the
duplication.

9 MARCH 2016

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The answer is yes. [Applause.]

Action taken re-Marikana Commission Report

6.

Ms L Mathys (Gauteng: EFF) asked the Deputy President:

(1)

What action has he taken regarding the Marikana Commission
Report where 34 black mine workers were massacred (details
furnished);

(2)

(a)

why

National

has

the
and

Government
Provincial

only

acted

Police

against

the

Commissioners

regarding the Marikana Commission Report and (b) why
any action has not been taken against the (i) Deputy
President, (ii) Minister of Police and (iii) Minister
of Mineral Resources in this regard?

CO142E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the government,
through the Director-General in the Presidency and the Minister have
been looking very closely at what needs to be done with regards to
the actions to be taken, as I was asked, flowing out of the
unfortunate deaths of a number of people in Marikana. What I can say
is that the findings and the recommendations of the commission are
quite clear on this matter.

9 MARCH 2016

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As members know, I have in my personal capacity summons that has
been issued against me arising out of these events, and that is a
process that is now under litigation as they say. And as the
consequence and on the basis also of legal advice it is quite
inappropriate for me to get involved in any way at a personal level
as well as at the government level in any of the recommendations of
the Marikana Commission or any related processes. I guess
information on this matter can be obtained from the relevant
Ministers who were assigned by the President to deal with this
matter.

As for me it is inappropriate, quite honestly, to be dealing with
this matter. And that is the stands I have taken even at government
level. I am not involved. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. [Applause.]

Ms L MATHYS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the Deputy President in his ...
and I know now he claims that he does not want either to make
comments or get involved in a civil matter because it is under
litigation. But I am going to make my point anyway and I am sure ...
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, can you just speak
to the mic.

Ms L MATHYS: Oh, I like having to talk again. I understand that the
Deputy President says he cannot make comments on this matter because

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it is under litigation. But the matter is in the civil court. I am
going to go through the comments and some questions that I think he
could answer as the result of being in government. I look out as
everyone stands up when we speak about Marikana ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can you please take
your seats. Hon members, can you just take your seats.

Ms L MATHYS: You are not serious!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. Hon Mokwele, can you
just please be in order. I have ordered the members and requested
them to take their seats. Hon members, can you just take your seats.
Let me just hear and then I will allow you to raise your point of
order.

Ms L MATHYS: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Deputy Chair. That is a very
fair call. So the Deputy President in his testimony at the Farlam
Commission stated that he called for pointed action because people
were dying and something had to be done. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no. I will make a ruling
on this matter. [Interjections.]

Ms L MATHYS: Within a day or so he called for pointed action and
there were more police vans deployed to the Marikana kopi. What

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followed was the brutal slaughtering of striking mineworkers,
slaughtered worse than animals. And, Deputy Chair, it took the ANCled government four days to deal pointedly with those Marikana
striking mineworkers. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member.

Ms L MATHYS: Oh!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, may I just remind
you that in terms of the rules of this House that has always guided
us ... Hon member, can you take your seat. In terms of the rules
that guide this House if a matter is before the courts or recorded
as an issue that is under litigation, I take it that as the House we
all know that we cannot be dealing with such a matter. Or should I
refer to the specific rule?

Ms L MATHYS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I know which rule you are
talking about. This matter ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If it is a matter ... The Deputy
President did not respond to the question precisely because of the
processes and because of where the matter is. [Interjections.]

Ms L MATHYS: This is a civil matter. He is been sued! Chairperson!
[Interjections.]

9 MARCH 2016

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, hon members, can
you please take your seats! [Interjections.]

Ms L MATHYS: Deputy Chair, you are way offline here. Hon Deputy
Chair, I knew there was going to be a problem when you came on here.
I knew it.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, hon members, can
you please take your seats!

Ms L MATHYS: Hon Deputy Chair, I knew there was going to be a
problem!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, hon members, can
you please take your seats! Hon members! [Interjections.]

Ms L MATHYS: I am not talking about the injured mineworkers that are
being sued, I am talking about those that were already massacred and
the government action. Do not confuse the two. We cannot be ...
[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, can you take your
seats!

Ms L MATHYS: It is four years! Four years, we had people who were
slaughtered and no one has accounted for them!

9 MARCH 2016

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, can you take your
seat! Ag, not hon Mokwele, but hon Mathys!

Ms L MATHYS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I knew there was going to be a
problem when you took the Chair! I am not Mathys, I am hon Mathys!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Zwane and hon Mtileni can
you take your seats. Hon Mtileni, can you take your seat. Hon
members! Hon members, hon members, I do not know what is it that you
are arguing about.

[Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: We want the answers!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Because the rules of this House
are quite clear on matters ... [Interjections.]

Ms L MATHYS: And there is the reason you put this question last on
this cluster because you knew what you were going to do. This House
and your Members of Parliament, MPs, always want to protect the
executive, from President Zuma to the Deputy President. This is what
this House has come down to.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Okay. Oh, you now want to
sing in the House? You want to sing in the House? [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: We need answers!

9 MARCH 2016

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You want to sing in the House?
Okay. [Interjections.] Hon members, hon members, may I rule you out
of order on this question and therefore declare that this question
shall not be responded to in this House. [Interjections.] On those
basis, hon members, that brings us to the conclusion of the
questions to the Deputy President. [Applause.] Hon members, order!
Order, hon members! Hon member, can I order you to leave the House!
This is absolutely a grave disorder! Can this member be ordered to
leave the House! [Interjections.]

Ms T J MOKWELE: We are not going anywhere! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I therefore request the
protection services to take this hon member out! [Applause.]

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - 2016
FISCAL FRAMEWORK AND REVENUE PROPOSALS

Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Western Cape, Gauteng,
Eastern Cape, Free State and KwaZulu-Natal.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chair.

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Deputy Chairperson.

9 MARCH 2016

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Charl de Beer, hold it. On what point are you rising, hon
Labuschagne?

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I was rising on a point of
order on the fact that you made a ruling that the Deputy President
did not have to continue answering the follow-up questions. I am not
questioning your ruling on the sub judice because it is already been
done. My question is that there is a question on the Question Paper
that the House accepted it. Therefore, the EFF got out of control
and you as the Chairperson could have ruled and adjourned the House
for 10 minutes and resumed it again so that we could continue and
not taking other parties’ opportunity away to do what we need to do.
It is the second ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: May I
make a ruling? Hon members, the member is still on her feet on a
point of order. May I take the point of order? Take your seat.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: This exactly what is happening in this House
everytime when the Deputy President is here. And it is the second
time in this House that you are closing the space of democracy by
taking away every others’ parties opportunity except those of the
ANC. This is what is going on here, Deputy Chair, with all due
respect. [Applause.]

9 MARCH 2016

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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Thank
you very much, hon member. No, no, take your seat. I don’t sustain
that point of order. Hon De Beer, can you continue with the debate?

Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Hon Deputy Minister of
Finance and hon members, the Minister of Finance tabled the 2016
national Budget before Parliament on 24 February and subsequently
engaged with the Standing and Select Committee on Finance on 25
February 2016. The Finance Committees held public hearings on 2
March and received inputs from the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO,
Financial Fiscal Commission, FFC, Congress of South African Trade
Unions, Cosatu, Federation of Unions of South Africa, Fedusa, and
the South African Institute of Chartered Accountants, SAICA, and
Professor Jannie Rossouw from the Business School of Witwatersrand,
Wits.

On 4 March the committees received a presentation from the National
Treasury addressing the specific requirements of section 8(3) of the
Money Bills Act for approving the fiscal framework and responding to
the selected issues raised by members and stakeholders during the
public hearings.

Budget 2016 speaks about the financial management and the strategy
of the state and the more rapid fiscal consolidation to return to
public finances to a sustainable path. His Excellency President Zuma
said, and I quote: ―We have made an undertaking to spend public

9 MARCH 2016

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funds wisely and cut wasteful expenditure‖. Hon members, we cannot
spend money that we do not have. This is not an easy road. You take
it for yourself in your own finances - the decisions you have to
take sometimes.

The Budget aims to strengthen social solidarity and extend our
social safety net. It is about the development of our people.

We commend the Minister of Finance with his engagement with
investors in the United Kingdom and the United States of America,
USA, to put the case of South Africa informing them that South
Africa is open for business and we have a plan called a New
Development Plan.

South Africa is rated amongst the top three in the world regarding
budget transparency. The majority in the committees recognise the
extreme difficult economic conditions in which the budget had to be
shaped, with a particular focus on avoiding a sovereign downgrade,
and believe that the Budget is a remarkable attempt at finding the
right balance between competing needs and interests. A major massage
of the Minister of Budget Speech was, and I quote:

We are resilient, we are committed and we are resourceful. We know
how to turn adversity into opportunity.

9 MARCH 2016

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The committees see this as a challenge for all sectors of society to
play their role in ensuring economic growth, job creation and
development in the country. The Minister constantly stressed the
need for working together of government, business, labour and
communities. By working together we can increase growth, broaden
participation and inspire confidence in our economy and the society.
The committee welcome this stress on our potential as a country and
the government’s commitment to work co-operatively with all relevant
partners. As part of this, the committee commits itself to be more
effective in their oversight and other roles. We also welcome the
decision to place the Budget more firmly in the context of the
National Development Plan.

We acknowledge the ambitious targets that the National Treasury has
set for the reduction of deficits, debt to gross domestic product,
GDP, ratios and containment of unnecessary expenditure. However, the
National Treasury will have to do much to achieve these targets and
secure the co-operation of other departments and public entities to
do so as well. We remain concerned about the persistent downgrade
revision of economic growth forecasts and the consequent risks to
the economy and the fiscal outlooks. The National Treasury put
greater emphasis on the domestic constrains to economic growth and
job creation while we are recognising the global constrains.

While we are recognising the financial imperatives for Barclay’s
decision to reduce its shareholding in Amalgamated Banks of South

9 MARCH 2016

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Africa, Absa, the committees express concern about the implications
of this in the long-term for the financial sector and the ordinary
consumer of financial products and services.

We note that the country may be losing potential tax revenue if
cross-border controls are not tightened and systems are not
improved. The committees welcome the increases in the tertiary
education budget but would like to see better outcomes. We want
quality. We want money to be spent wisely.

I turn to the recommendations and there are 30 of them. I am not
going to deal with each one of the 30. I will just highlight a few
because the Report is on the table in front of the members. As
noted, the committees welcome the ambitious targets the National
Treasury has set for the reduction of deficits, debt to GDP ratios
and curtailment of unnecessary expenditure.

The committee requires the National Treasury to report on progress
on these targets in its quarterly reports to the committee. While
recognising that the National Treasury needs the full co-operation
of all three spheres of government and public entities, the
committee requires that the Treasury provides detailed briefings on
the reduction of unnecessary expenditure in the public service.

We also note the increasing recognition by government that the South
African growth model needs to move away from the reliance on cheap

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labour, cheap electricity and commodity exports. We believe that
government needs to more effectively address the structural
constraints to economic growth that it has increasingly identified
in these recent years.

The National Treasury needs to intensify its assistance to national
and provincial departments to align their annual performance plans
to their budgets and effectively monitor the implementation of these
plans. It also needs to engage with the Department of Planning,
Monitoring and Evaluation on the need to strengthen the alignment
between budgets and spending outcomes, since departments spend their
budget allocations but their performance is well below planned
performance targets. There should also be a focus on identifying
performance on administration programmes as distinct from service
delivery programmes.

The Treasury working together with national departments, provinces
and municipalities need to conduct a comprehensive spending review,
which should include the composition of spending, the efficiency of
spending and future spending priorities on major projects such as
the National Health Insurance, NHI. The review should ensure that
the burden of spending cuts falls on consumption expenditure rather
than investment expenditure, and does not fall disproportionally on
provinces and municipalities. Aspects of this review should be
included in the processing of the next Medium-Term Budget Policy
Statement, MTBPS, which we will be dealing with in October.

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The committee accepts the Budget that budgets for infrastructure
development are not spent productively for a variety of reasons
including the lack of capacity. The committee believes that the
National Treasury should work with other departments and relevant
stakeholders to improve the capacity of the state to deliver
infrastructure. It requires the Treasury to provide within six month
a detailed briefing on the budgetary reallocation for infrastructure
and progress on its effective spending.

The Treasury together with other relevant departments need to ensure
that the Provincial Growth and Development Strategies of provinces
are consistent with the National Development Plan, NDP, and take
into account the goals set out in the 2016 Budget. As raised in
previous reports, the committees believe that while it is not the
responsibility of the National Treasury alone, but government as a
whole, also the Inter-Governmental Relations, IGR, the budget should
focus in more detail on proposals on how exactly economic growth
will be stimulated.

While welcoming the budgetary allocation to dealing with the
drought, the committees require the National Treasury to monitor
constantly developments and allocate increase resources within the
budgetary constraints should it be necessary. The current social
security system is absolutely necessary, but as government also
acknowledges, unsustainable. The committee urges government to pay
increasing attention to this matter.

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The committee support government’s approach of securing greater cooperation between government, business, labour and the public to
ensure greater economic growth, job creation and development. We
believe that government needs to consider a new social accord
amongst the relevant partners to achieve these goals that takes into
account the failures of previous accord and draws necessary lessons
from them to ensure that the new accord is effective.

While recognising the difficulties, the committees believe that the
National Treasury needs to work more closely with the relevant
departments and do more to improve the financial and commercial
viability of the key state-owned entities, SOEs. The committees
welcome the proposal to consider a minority equity partner for SA
Airways, SAA, and the merger of SAA and SA Express but believe that
these should be merely part of an overall strategy to make the
state-owned airlines financially viable.

The committees are interested to know what the prospects
of merging Mango with SAA are. The committees want to see a new SAA
and SA Express Board appointed reasonably soon. Hon Chairperson, my
time is running out. I am going to the conclusion.

We are accountable to the people of South Africa on how their taxes
are spent. We can’t and must not fail them. The DA reserves its
position on this Report. I tabled this Report for consideration by
the House. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

9 MARCH 2016

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Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chair, the Report on the 2016 Fiscal
Framework and Revenue Proposals deal with more than just numbers and
figures. It is the expression of how government spends the people’s
finances. Not the governance’s finances, but the people’s finance.
Similar to the household budget that every family in South Africa
sits down to draw up every month to decide how much will be
allocated to food also ... [Inaudible.]... framework is the mega
budget of South Africa. Last year’s economic crisis was evidence
that the ANC does not know how to draw up a budget – nothing has
changed.

What is even worse is that they believe steamrolling the South
African mega budget through the National Council of Provinces is to
be to the benefit of each South African family. It is not. It shows
that the ANC scared of allowing South Africans to interrogate them
for the fear that the ANC government will be caught out with their
lies and deceit. Proper processes include ensuring that the NCOP is
able to conduct proper legislative oversight over this process and
to ensure that each member of society can take part in public
participation.

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The Standing and Select Committees on Appropriation should not be
considering the durable until the fiscal framework has been passed
and the fiscal framework has been unnecessarily rush through
specifically to enable this abovementioned process. The Credit
Ratings Agency, Moody’s, has put South Africa and review with the
possibility of downgrading us to junk status. What this means to the
average South African is that South Africa cannot pay its debt. A
downgrade will raise the cost of borrowing and increased the cost of
living for each and every person in this country.

South Africans cannot afford this downgrade and it is imperative
that the NCOP ensures that their voices are heard. Thus, the Western
Cape cannot support this Report. Thank you.

Ms T MOTARA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the current economic climate
calls on South Africa as a nation and people to harness our
resilient nature. Tough times will need us to make difficult
choices, some more unpopular than others but no less necessary. We
are making those difficult decisions and we are still satisfied and
reassured that the fiscal consolidation will take place but not at
the expense of the ANC’s priority delivery books: Education, health,
safety and security, access to and the roll out of housing,
sanitation and water will not be compromised as a result of the
decisions the National Treasury has had to take.

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We are reassured by the necessary steps and measures taken to
stabilise the debt to GDP ratio. Our debt levels have risen as a
result of our countercyclical fiscal policy position. Of course,
what remains to be seen is the effect and the envisage benefits of
our expensive investment in the roll out of infrastructure.

What remains the concern is the outputs of our priority spending
areas, while all of us collectively and individually agree that
economic growth or the lack thereof must be what preoccupies all of
us going forward. There are a number of issues that need to be
addressed. There has to be more policy clarity that affects sectors
of our economy that have been identified as future growth
stimulators. Let us agree that we need to direct and give clear
leadership to industries.

The ANC has been accused of belabouring the point that our
unfavourable economic climate is mainly as a result of factors
beyond our control. We have been accused of shifting responsibility
of our economic decline to the international crisis. We do not live
on an Ireland or a planet far removed from reality. The objective
reality is that our domestic economic prospects are intertwined with
global economic developments. Our economy has been built on the back
of three main aspects: Firstly, cheap labour; secondly, cheap
electricity; and thirdly, being a high demand of export commodities.

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The structure of the South African economy has to change in order to
respond to high economic growth. Hon Labuschagne, we are not yet at
the division of revenue, we are now dealing with the Fiscal
Framework and Revenue Proposals. As Gauteng ANC, we do support the
proposals. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Ms T WANA: Deputy Chairperson, as the Eastern Cape, we support the
2016 Fiscal Framework and Revenue Proposals. The DA and other
parties have nowhere to account, as we stand here because of the
support of 62% of voters. We cannot abandon our masses.

Firstly, the annual Moody’s review takes place on 16 March, and this
notion of ―junk status‖ doesn’t affect us because the masses are
waiting for us to deliver on our promises. We are doing that
because, currently, the electricity ...

... ikhona nangaphaya eQhumanco ekhaya ezilalini. [... it is also
there at homes in Qhumanco village.]

Secondly, the DA cannot accept everything we propose because they
used to suck our blood. As the ANC, we are decent enough to share
the same platform with our oppressors. [Interjections.] With that
said, the Eastern Cape supports the proposals. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 94 of 114

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, perhaps I
should start by stating that the Select Committee on Finance
followed all the necessary steps and procedures. Nothing was flawed.
What is important is that all provinces – as observed from the
meetings in which the North West Province served, the Western Cape
participated and made inputs with regard to the recommendations of
this report. I am not aware ... as we stand here, we have warned
that grandstanding and not supporting what you have proposed is
hypocrisy. [Interjections.]

Just this weekend, we had a joint meeting of the Standing Committee
on Finance, the Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Select
Committee on Finance. Nobody got up to say that fiscal consolidation
is not a priority in this country, that inequality, poverty and
unemployment is not a challenge in this country. All of us were in
unanimous agreement, and we warned that it is not important – and
South Africans must unite because it is not only this country that
faces economic challenges. These challenges are faced worldwide by
many developed countries, and South Africa, as a developing country,
also faces this challenge.

It is important that South Africans unite and rally behind this
Budget because it is proper and addresses the social ills that were
created by some of the people who come here and get up to say that
they don’t support this Budget. They have never supported any move
aimed at improving the lives of African people in this country, in

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 95 of 114

particular black people. We support this report. As the North West
Province, we support the fiscal framework. [Time expired.]
[Applause.]

Mr S J MOHAI: Deputy Chair and hon members, we are discussing this
fiscal framework under conditions that require that all of us pull
together in national unity and a common purpose to attend to urgent
matters of economic growth and development in our country.

As a country, we pride ourselves, as we speak, that our Minister of
Finance, Minister Pravin Gordhan, is attending to this urgent matter
in multilateral institutions where he is engaging with business,
addressing matters that are imperative to investment in our country.
We agree with the call made by the Minister that business, labour
and civil society must attend to these urgent matters speedily in
order to grow our economy.

We will ensure that the commitments made by the Minister of Finance
regarding investment in cities, in urban networks, what we know as
rural transport development, and many other initiatives are
supported. These are matters that relate to creating economic
opportunities in our communities, building productive assets, and
building the infrastructure necessary to inject growth in our
economy.

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Page: 96 of 114

So, when we discuss matters of this nature, we separate from
sensation and opportunistic stands to canvass for votes but attend
to urgent matters that create jobs and opportunities for our people
in a sustainable manner. We support the current fiscal framework.
Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Deputy Chairperson, the province of KwaZuluNatal, led by the ANC, supports the fiscal framework. For many
years, the people of KwaZulu-Natal have suffered in terms of access
to water. With this framework, allocations are made to water and
sanitation in KwaZulu-Natal.

The Back to Basics programme is in place, and it is ensuring that
the waiting period related to the fixing and maintaining of
infrastructure is reduced. The province of KwaZulu-Natal supports
the fiscal framework because, being a poverty-stricken province
together with Limpopo and the Eastern Cape, we got the cushion from
the fiscal framework allocations.

It is also not true that the province of KwaZulu-Natal doesn’t
follow the processes prescribed by the Mandating Procedures of
Provinces Act, Act 52 of 2008. Our legislature does its work
prudently and efficiently. It consults with the people, as
instructed by the ANC that we keep in touch with the people and let
them participate in the budget framework. Further, as KwaZulu-Natal,
we are committed and, as demonstrated, a clean government.

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 97 of 114

As we concluded the 2014 Operation Clean Audit campaign, we saw an
improvement in municipalities in KwaZulu-Natal in the manner they
deal with finance and service delivery. We support the fiscal
framework. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.

AGAINST: Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 17:02.
__________

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

MONDAY, 29 FEBRUARY 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 98 of 114

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.

Assent by President in respect of Bills

(1)

Division of Revenue Amendment Bill [B 27 – 2015] – Act No 15 of 2015 (assented to
and signed by President on 24 February 2016).

(2)

Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 28 – 2015] – Act No 21 of 2015 (assented to and
signed by President on 24 February 2016).

2.

Re-classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

(1)

The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) reclassified the Mineral and Petroleum
Resources Development Amendment Bill [B 15B – 2013], referred back to the National
Assembly by the President in terms of section 79(1) of the Constitution, as a Bill falling
within the ambit of section 18(1) of the Traditional Leadership and Governance
Framework Act, 2003 (Act No 41 of 2003).

Bill to be referred to the National House of Traditional Leaders.

3.

Membership of Committees

The following members have been nominated to serve on the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on
Appointment of Board Members to the National Youth Development Agency.

9 MARCH 2016
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

African National Congress

Mapulane, Mr MP
Mabe, Ms BP
Mkongi, Mr BM
Lesoma, Ms RMM
Mokoto, Ms NR
Manana, Ms DP
Democratic Alliance

Cassim, Mr Y
Marais, Mr EJ

Economic Freedom Fighters

Ndlozi, Mr MQ

Inkatha Freedom Party

Hlengwa, Mr M

National Freedom Party

Page: 99 of 114

9 MARCH 2016
Mncwabe, Mr SC

African Independent Congress

Jafta, Mr SM [Alternate]

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

African National Congress
Ncitha, Ms Z (Eastern Cape)
Mohapi, Mr MJ (Free State)
Motara, Ms T (Gauteng)
Mhlanga, Mr MT (Mpumalanga)
Nthebe, Mr BG (North West)
Manopole, Ms GM (Northern Cape)

Democratic Alliance

Mpambo-Sibhukwana, Ms GM (Western Cape)

Economic Freedom Fighters

Mtileni, Mr VE

Inkatha Freedom Party

Page: 100 of 114

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 101 of 114

Khawula, Mr M (KwaZulu-Natal)

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Referral to Select Committee on Petitions and Executive Undertakings for consideration and
report

1. Minister of Social Development: During the Sitting of 26 May 2015, the Minister
made the following undertakings:

(a)

“Early childhood development, ECD, remains a priority and has been
declared a public good by this government. This year we will continue to
extend ECD services to children in the zero to five years age cohort and
increase the number of registered ECD facilities”.

(b)

“In this financial year, we will establish additional 81 projects and train
more than 2 000 child and youth care workers”.

(c)

“The department will ensure that all the existing community nutrition and
development centres as well as the provincial food and distribution centres
buy

from

framework”.

local

co-operatives

through

preferential

procurement

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 102 of 114

2. Minister of Small Business Development: During the Sitting of 26 May 2015, the
Minister made the following undertakings:

(a)

“The 30 day payment delay for SMMEs and co-operatives will be looked
at by the Minister of Small Business Development in partnership with the
Minister of Monitoring and Evaluation”.

(b)

“The department will expedite the implementation of the National
Informal Business Upliftment Strategy which we call Nibus, which seeks
to create an enabling legal and regulatory environment and provide
financial and non-financial support”.

(c)

“We shall be working with metros, municipalities, the South African
Local Government Association, Salga, and the National House of
Traditional Leaders to review by-laws that may be a hindrance to the
advancement of township and rural economies”.

(d)

“With regard to people with disabilities, previously, the department did
not have any dedicated programmes to support this important sector of
our community. Working closely with relevant organisations, the
department will develop incentives and programmes that are directed to
this sector.

3. Minister of Higher Education and Training: During the Sitting of 9 June 2015, the
Minister made the following undertakings:

9 MARCH 2016
(a)

Page: 103 of 114

“We are also pleased to announce that with the support of a number of
partners, we have established the first Centre for African Languages
Teaching that has been established as part of the University of
Mpumalanga’s Siyabuswa Campus. This centre will promote research into
teaching African Languages, particularly the dominant languages of
Mpumalanga province, IsiNdebele and Siswati.”

(b)

“The 2011 Census tells us that there are 18 million South Africans who need
Adult Basic Education and Training of one kind or the other. For this
reason, I will therefore establish a fully-fledged branch on adult education
and community college education in my department, headed by a deputy
director-general”.

(c)

“We are also very pleased that we are going to expand what we call Higher
Certificate, basically targeting students who have not made it in matric to be
able to bridge to go to university or colleges or so that some of them to
actually get employment”.

4. Minister of Justice and Correctional Services: During the Sitting of 4 June 2015, the
Minister made the following undertakings:

(a)

“We have successfully implemented the rationalisation of magisterial
districts in Gauteng and North West with effect from 1 December 2014 and
have commenced with the roll-out of the project to Limpopo and
Mpumalanga provinces. In the latter provinces this exercise will culminate

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 104 of 114

in the official opening of the Limpopo Division of the High Court
earmarked for later this year and the Mpumalanga Division of the High
Court planned for early 2016”.

(b)

“We intend to expand the mediation services to additional courts and this
will happen as soon as we have built sufficient capacity at courts to carry
out the mediation function.”

(c)

“We will also run 24 workshops to train officials on ethics and to
strengthen our collective vigilance against fraud, corruption and serious
maladministration”.

(d)

“A number of strategic positions including that of national commissioner
and chief deputy commissioner for strategic management will be filled soon
as recommendations have been made for appointments. Filling other
strategic positions including the regional commissioner of the Limpopo,
Mpumalanga and North West regions is receiving priority attention”.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister in The Presidency

9 MARCH 2016
(a)

Page: 105 of 114

Annual Report of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee (NCACC) for the
year ended December 2015, tabled in terms of section 23(1)(c) of the National
Conventional Arms Control Act, 2002 (Act No 41 of 2002).

(a)

2015 Fourth Quarterly Report of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee
(NCACC), tabled in terms of section 23(1) (c) of the National Conventional Arms Control
Act, 2002 (Act No 41 of 2002).

2.

The Minister of Communications

(a)

Revised Annual Performance Plan of the Independent Communications Authority of South
Africa for 2015/16.

National Council of Provinces

1.

The Chairperson

(a)

Notice of extension of intervention issued in terms of section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution,
1996 to Oudtshoorn Local Municipality, Western Cape.

TUESDAY, 1 MARCH 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 106 of 114

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.

Referral of Bill to the National House of Traditional Leaders

(1)

The Secretary to Parliament has, in accordance with section 18(1) of the Traditional
Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003 (Act No. 41 of 2003), referred the
Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2015], to the
National House of Traditional Leaders, which must, within 30 days from the date of the
referral (31 March 2016), make any comments it wishes to make.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Referral to Committees of papers tabled

(1)

The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Finance for consideration:

(a)

Municipal Budgets for the 2015 Medium Term Revenue and Expenditure
Framework (MTREF), tabled in terms of section 24(3) of the Local Government:
Municipal Finance Management Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003).

(2)

The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Cooperative Governance
and Traditional Affairs for consideration and report:

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 107 of 114

(a)

Revised Annual Performance Plan of the Department of Women for 2015/16.

(b)

South Africa’s 5th Periodic Report on the Implementation of the Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women 2009-2014.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)

Government Notice No 184, published in Government Gazette No 39703, dated 17
February 2016: Notice to repeal sector codes and repeal sector codes that are not aligned to
the B-BBEE codes, made in terms of section 9(7) of the Broad-Based Black Economic
Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).

(b)

Government Notice No 185, published in Government Gazette No 39704, dated 17
February 2016: Invitation for the public to comment on the draft Broad-Based Black
Economic Empowerment Regulations, 2016 made in terms of Section 14(1) of the BroadBased Black Economic Empowerment Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).

WEDNESDAY, 2 MARCH 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 108 of 114

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1.

Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

(1)

The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 75 Bill:

(a)

2.

Broadcasting Amendment Bill [B 39 – 2015] (National Assembly – sec 75).

Membership of Committees

(1)

Mr MP Mapulane (National Assembly) and Ms GM Manopole (National Council of
Provinces) have been elected as Co-Chairpersons of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on
Appointment of Board Members to the National Youth Development Agency with effect
from 02 March 2016.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services

(a)

Government Notice No R 1272, published in Government Gazette No 39552, dated 23
December 2015: Regulations relating to Debt Collectors, 2003: Amendment, made under
section 23 of the Debt Collectors Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 109 of 114
THURSDAY, 3 MARCH 2016

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1.

Report of the Select Committee on Security and Justice on the Draft Notice and Schedule
submitted in terms of section 2(3)(b) of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of
Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining the rate at which salaries are
payable to Constitutional Court Judges and Judges annually, dated 2 March 2016.

The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the Draft Notice and Schedule
submitted in terms of section 2(3)(b) of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act,
2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court
judges and judges annually with effect from 1 April 2015, referred to it, recommends that the Council
approve the said Draft Notice and Schedule.

Report to be considered.

2.

Report of the Select Committee on Security and Justice on the Draft Notice and Schedule in
terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993), determining the rate
at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually, dated 2 March 2016.

The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the Draft Notice and Schedule in
terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No 90 of 1993), determining the rate at which

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 110 of 114

salaries are payable to magistrates annually with effect from 1 April 2015, referred to it, recommends
that the Council approve the said Draft Notice and Schedule.

Report to be considered.

FRIDAY, 4 MARCH 2016

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1.

The Minister of Finance

(a)

2.

Report to Parliament on the over- and underspending of municipalities as at 30 June 2015.

The Minister of Trade and Industry

(a)

Government Notice No 36, published in Government Gazette No 39609, dated 21 January
2016: Invitation for the public to comment on determination of application, registration
and renewal fees, in terms of Section 51 of the National Credit Act, 2005 (Act No 34 of
2005).

(b)

Government Notice No 201, published in Government Gazette No 39758, dated 29
February 2016: Draft Amended ICT Sector Code: Codes of Good Practice for public

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 111 of 114

comment, in terms of section 9(5) of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment
Amendment Act, 2003 (Act No 53 of 2003).

National Council of Provinces

1.

The Chairperson

(a)

The President of the Republic submitted the following letter dated 3 March 2016 to the
Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, informing members of the Council of
the extension of employment of members of the South African National Defence Force for
service in fulfillment of the international obligation of the Republic of South Africa
towards the United Nations.

Please see page 3 of the ATCs.

(b)

The President of the Republic submitted the following letter dated 3 March 2016 to the
Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, informing members of the Council of
the extension of employment of members of the South African National Defence Force for
service in fulfillment of the international obligation of the Republic of South Africa
towards the South African Development Community (SADC) Maritime Security.

Please see pages 4-5 of the ATCs.

TUESDAY, 8 MARCH 2016

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 112 of 114

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1.

Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills
passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

(1)

Bill passed by National Assembly and transmitted for concurrence on 8 March 2016:

(a)

Performing Animals Protection Amendment Bill [B 9B - 2015] (National
Assembly – sec 75).
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Land and Mineral
Resources of the National Council of Provinces.

2.

Referral to Committees of papers tabled

(1)

The following papers are referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence for
consideration:

(a)

The President of the Republic submitted a letter dated 3 March 2016 to the
Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, informing members of the Council
of the extension of employment of members of the South African National Defence

9 MARCH 2016

Page: 113 of 114

Force for service in fulfillment of the international obligation of the Republic of
South Africa towards the United Nations.

(b)

The President of the Republic submitted a letter dated 2 March 2016 to the
Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, informing members of the Council
of the extension of employment of members of the South African National Defence
Force for service in fulfillment of the international obligation of the Republic of
South Africa towards the South African Development Community (SADC) Maritime
Security.

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1.

The Chairperson

(1)

Report on the round table discussion on Youth Development – 29th July 2015

Please see pages 3-26 of the ATCs.

WEDNESDAY, 9 MARCH 2016

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

9 MARCH 2016
1.

Page: 114 of 114

Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

(1)

The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bills as money Bills:

(a)

Appropriation Bill [B 3 – 2016] (National Assembly – sec 77).

(b)

Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 4 – 2016] (National Assembly – sec 77).

(2) The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bill as a section 76 Bill:

(a)

Division of Revenue Bill [B 2 – 2016] (National Assembly – sec 76).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

Please see pages 3-18 of the ATCs.


 


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