Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 30 May 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 1
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:02.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to
observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Policy debate)
Vote No 2—Parliament:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, permanent and
special delegates, ladies and gentlemen.
Well, the Freedom Charter is not formulated on the basis of any
ideological positions. The Freedom Charter simply looks at our
situation in which there is great wealth - immense wealth -
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 2
concentrated in the hands of a few while the vast majority of
people are living in desperate poverty, and we say how do we
adjust this position? How can this wealth be put at the service of
the people as a whole? What are the mechanisms? And we start by
accepting that it cannot go on, we cannot have a system which
maintains this juxtaposition of immense wealth and immense
poverty.
That was Oliver Reginald Tambo addressing the Foreign Affairs
committee of the House of Commons in 1985.
That Freedom Charter that Oliver Tambo was talking about is a
collection of aspirations of the ordinary masses who envisioned a
South Africa in which all the people were entitled to take part in
the administration of the country and where the national wealth of
the country was restored to the people. It is not a coincidence,
therefore that our Parliament‘s vision is that of an activist and
responsive Parliament that advocates and monitors society for the
improvement of the quality of life of all South Africans and
enduring equality in our society.
Hon members, we are supposed to be celebrating 20 years of our
Constitution and 20 years since the establishment of the NCOP. We
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 3
should actually be criticising, analysing, studying, and making
recommendations about the NCOP. We should be asking ourselves which
parts of the Constitution we want to see revisited and tinkered
with. We should ask ourselves whether we are making the required
contribution towards the growing of democracy in our country.
If we were to undertake these studies that I am looking at, we would
ask ourselves whether the people of South Africa think that they
trust us enough as Parliament to leave this job to us. We would ask
ourselves whether we are resourced and capacitated as Parliament to
undertake this job. We would ask ourselves whether we actually have
the resolve to capacitate and review, not only the Constitution, but
also ourselves.
Parliament is there to ensure that government is by the people. The
interest of the people must reflect in our work and speeches. I want
to thank all the members who have been making time, who have been
making recommendations, to make sure that work in the committees is
enlightened and that capacity gaps are not glaring.
We are committed to addressing the needs of all our members to
improve quality of work through research and other means. This
Budget Vote provides for the support services required by Parliament
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 4
to fulfil its constitutional functions, to fund political parties
represented in Parliament, to secure administrative support and to
service constituencies.
We have developed a framework for aligning the work of Parliament to
the global, continental, regional and national development agendas.
South Africa is one of 193 UN member states that adopted the 2030
Agenda for Sustainable Development in 2015. This framework provides
for a shared and collective responsibility to ensure the future of
our planet and her people.
The framework is intended to assist us in monitoring the
implementation of the National Development Plan, NDP, amongst other
things. We know the NDP is founded on six pillars that represent the
broad objectives to eliminate poverty and reduce inequality. The
pillars include uniting South Africans of all races and classes
around a common programme to eliminate poverty and reduce
inequality, and encouraging citizens to be active in their own
development, in strengthening democracy and in holding their
government accountable.
In the reporting period, the NCOP undertook many activities in
pursuit of the policy priorities of the Fifth Parliament. These
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 5
include strengthening oversight and accountability, enhancing public
involvement, strengthening legislative capacity and co-operative
government.
We held our first report-back session in the Eden District in the
Western Cape in April 2016 following the 2015 Taking Parliament to
the People programme in the same district. A total of 15 national
and provincial departments plus the Eden District Municipality made
undertakings to respond to service delivery issues raised by
community members. Eleven of the 15 departments provided positive
responses to the NCOP on how they have implemented their
undertakings, which translates to 73% response rate. This excludes
the Eden District Municipality which had responded to all service
delivery issues raised by the public right there. The outstanding
issues are being followed up by NCOP committees.
In November 2016 the first joint Taking Parliament and Legislature
to the People Programme was held in the Buffalo City in the Eastern
Cape Province. This programme, which focused on education, was
preceded by the pre-visit programme which concentrated on the Alfred
Nzo District in October of the same year. Both programmes provided a
platform for communities to raise all service delivery issues, but
focussed on education. Both the NCOP and the Eastern Cape Provincial
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 6
Legislature are committed to monitor and follow up on the
commitments and undertakings made during the programme and to report
back on progress to the communities involved during November 2017.
I must at this point state that our approach to the programme has
enabled us to extend our reach, visiting at least two districts in a
province compared to one previously, and doing so at a reduced cost.
The functioning of the NCOP is inextricably intertwined with the
operations of the National Assembly, provincial legislatures and the
South African Local Government Association, Salga, on matters
affecting provinces and municipalities. It is for this reason that
in February this year we convened the representatives of these
institutions for a joint planning exercise.
The general thrust of the discussions at the planning session
centred around the development of mechanisms and guiding tools for
the synchronisation of institutional programmes, approach to
interventions in terms of section 139 of the Constitution and the
role of the provincial legislatures, and on the implications of the
Land Access Movement of South Africa, Lamosa, constitutional court
judgment on public participation and law-making processes.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 7
There was consensus towards looking at co-ordinated oversight. The
central objective was to establish a common understanding and
protocols for the type of oversight the legislative sector wants to
conduct and implement.
The meeting agreed to have the legislatures joining the NCOP and NA
delegations and particularly the relevant committees of the
legislature in conducting Provincial and Oversight Weeks. We also
agreed that the initiator pays.
On sectoral parliaments, we reaffirmed the correctness and relevance
of these flagship sectoral programmes and further emphasised the
need for a thorough and systematic build-up programme in the
provinces leading up to the main national event.
You will recall that the legislative sector organised the National
Youth and Women‘s Parliaments. As this House we supported two round
tables — one on youth and one on women.
As part of holding the executive account, the NCOP adopted a total
of 51 resolutions emanating from reports of select committees and
outreach initiatives. The resolutions were communicated to the
relevant government departments with a significant increase in
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 8
receipt of responses. The Resolutions Tracking Application is
currently in its final testing phase, with input being received from
the Table staff of both Houses.
In respect of legislative work, the NCOP debated and passed 18
Bills. The list includes four section 76 Bills — the Division of
Revenue Bill, Division of Revenue Amendment, Children‘s Second
Amendment Bill and the Expropriation Bill which has since been
returned by the President.
A total of 17 draft Bills were received from the executive. These
were all transmitted to the Speakers of the provincial legislatures
and the Chairperson of Salga to enable the provincial legislatures
to acquaint themselves with the content before the introduction of
the Bills as required by Joint Rule 159(2). While no Members‘
Legislative Proposals were received, we continue to hope that, as
members gain more experience in their areas of operation, we will
see some improvement in this regard.
A total of one 113 pieces of procedural advice was provided, ranging
from advice relating to the business of the House, matters raised by
parties and provinces, and matters received from the public in the
form of petitions. Rulings and advice assisted in the interpretation
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 9
of Rules and in bringing certainty in their application. This, in
turn, contributes positively to the effective functioning of the
NCOP.
Questions to the executive constitute an important tool for
strengthening oversight. In the reporting period, a total of 460
questions were put to members of the executive. Of these, 248 were
for written reply and 212 for oral reply. Out of the 212 questions,
six were to the President, 18 to the Deputy President, 35 to the
Peace and Security Cluster, 43 to the Social Services Cluster, 21 to
the Governance Cluster and 89 to the Economics Cluster. A total of
300 responses were received by the end of the financial year.
A total of 13 notices of interventions in terms of section 139 were
received and referred to the Committee on Co-operative Government
and Traditional Affairs for consideration and report during the
financial year. Three notices of interventions were approved during
the financial year, namely: Umzinyathi District Municipality, Nquthu
Local Municipality in terms of 139(1)(b), and Nquthu Local
Municipality in terms of 139(1)(c). All were approved within the
timeframes as required by the Constitution. The committee continues
to regularly monitor the interventions.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 10
Six notices of interventions were terminated by operation of the law
after the August 2016 local government elections.
We note that KwaZulu-Natal tops the list in the number of notices of
intervention we continue to receive.
Eight public submissions were received and one of those was
classified as a petition and was referred to the Select Committee on
Petitions and Executive Undertakings. The petition was on the
alleged failure by the South African Police Service, SAPS, to
investigate reported complaints and alleged violation of
intellectual property rights by the SABC. The committee has yet to
table a report on this petition.
With regard to the other seven submissions, the complainants were
advised to seek other available avenues.
A total of 35 undertakings emanating from Budget Policy debates and
Question sessions were identified. Twenty-eight of these were
referred to the Select Committee on Petitions and Executive
Undertakings. All of the above undertakings were communicated to the
relevant government departments. Twenty-six responses were received
from government departments and were communicated to the select
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 11
committees. Seven undertakings were not required to be referred, as
responses to them were forwarded to affected delegates. In this way
we were able to hold the executive to account.
Hon members, we had two matters which were referred for disciplinary
hearing. The matter of hon Mathys fell away when she ceased to be a
Member of this House. The matter of hon Mateme is still with the
committee.
We appeal to hon members to attend the sittings of the House and its
committees as is required of them.
As we said when we presented Parliament‘s budget in 2016, in
celebrating 20 years of life under our Constitution this year, we
need to take a moment to reflect on how life would have been without
this Constitution, how this House would have been shaped without
that Constitution, and what this country would have without 1994.
Twenty years of implementing the Constitution must certainly provide
us an opportunity to reflect on how we are leading the project of
transforming our society. It must assist us to assess what we have
achieved along the way, as well as the weaknesses, as well as
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 12
pointers in the directions where we will have enduring stability and
peace as the nation of South Africa.
We announced on the occasion of Parliament‘s budget last year that
we were going to appoint the High-Level Panel. We have done so. I am
sure the House has seen members of the High-Level Panel busy looking
at the triple challenges of poverty, unemployment and inequality;
the creation and equitable distribution of wealth; land reform,
restitution, redistribution and security of tenure; nation-building
and social cohesion.
A preliminary report has been finalised and the final report will be
released in August 2017. Deliberations by the panel are expected to
draw more nuanced recommendations for the consideration of the
Speakers‘ Forum.
Parliament‘s proposed budget for the 2017-18 financial year is
R2,268 billion. This budget is divided into five programmes.
Programme 1: Strategic Leadership and Governance has been allocated
R71,2 million. Programme 2: Administration has been allocated
R116 million. Programme 3: Core Business has been allocated
R549,2 million. Programme 4: Support Services has been allocated
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 13
R305,9 million. Programme 5: Associated Services has been allocated
R669,5 million.
Our budget request for this financial year in terms of the Annual
Performance Plan was R3,3 billion. However only an amount of
R2,26 billion was allocated to Parliament, resulting in a shortfall
of more than R1 billion.
We are not panicking. We are engaging the head of state and
Treasury. We are also looking at reprioritising the business of
Parliament to see to it that the most important areas of our work do
not go underfunded.
If we are to continue to improve the support we provide to members
in the service that we are in, Parliament must begin to assert
itself. We need to go back to the separation of powers because it
has a bearing on how we are resourced. If we are expected to oversee
the National Development Plan, which says that you must have a
capacitated state ... The state includes the legislative sector. If
the Constitution says you balance power with the three arms, it
means none of the three arms must be seen to be inferior. Now we
know the legislative sector all over the world is always
underfunded. It is sometimes very deliberate because if the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 14
legislative sector is weaker than the executive, then issues of
oversight and holding the executive to account will suffer. If we
continue with Parliament‘s current funding model, we will suffer.
That is why we have set up these meetings to see the head of state
and Treasury to deal with this matter. So you will be hearing from
us.
Lastly, I want to say once again, thank you to Dr Mateme. And I want
to say welcome to Ntate Mohai. It has been an honour working with
you, ma‘am. It has also been an eye opener. I always believe that
when challenges occur, people are forced to think out of the box.
Sometimes you need problems to fine-tune your minds to deal with
issues.
I wish to commend the presiding officers. Thank you very much. I
don‘t know how we would work if we did not hold each other‘s hands.
Thank you, hon members, for sometimes going beyond the call of duty.
Thank you very much for bearing with us in the Free State where,
clearly, the conditions were not conducive for work. Members stuck
it out and worked and lived as the other South Africans live. Thank
you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 15
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, members and fellow South Africans,
this year, of course, we celebrate 20 years since the establishment
of the National Council of Provinces. But even though this Council
has steadily progressed, the vision for this institution is
unfortunately still a distant ideal. In terms of section 42(4) of
the Constitution:
The National Council of Provinces represents the provinces to
ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the
national sphere of government. It does this mainly by
participating in the national legislative process and by providing
a national forum for public consideration of issues affecting the
provinces.
Chairperson, with due respect, we are not fulfilling our
constitutional mandate currently. This House has become a
rubberstamp of National Assembly processes in terms of which
portfolio committees and select committees increasingly sit together
to review legislation – something that is clearly in conflict with
the Constitution. We are not and, more importantly, we cannot be a
mirror image of the National Assembly.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 16
However, it is not surprising that we are not an independent House –
and, if you listen carefully, I‘ll point out to you why. This was
clearly illustrated by the recent Land Access Movement of South
Africa and Others v Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces
and Others court case in 2016 where the court held that the public
must be given a meaningful chance to participate in the legislative
process. Thus, our budget should be focusing on legislation and
oversight, yet in the past year 62,5% - I repeat: 62,5% - of targets
of the legislation and oversight programme were not met.
Looking to the parliamentary budget, we rely on section 55 of the
Financial Management of Parliament Act, Act 10 of 2009, stipulating
that the accounting officers have the responsibility of preparing
the annual report of Parliament for each financial year. The
financial documents of Parliament are then reviewed by the Joint
Standing Committee on Financial Management of Parliament.
Chairperson, Parliament, with all due respect, has become its
biggest enemy. You are squandering taxpayers‘ hard-earned money,
losing cases regularly instead of just listening to simple reason,
often having the ability to avoid this House unnecessary
embarrassment.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 17
The Secretary to Parliament, our dear colleague Mr Gengezi Mgidlana,
jaunts overseas with his spouse, costing Parliament some R2 million.
He has chauffeurs and rides comfortably in state vehicles fitted
with blue lights. Further, he awarded himself a R30 000 bursary
whilst rejecting applications by junior staffers in this very
institution. And these are facts, not thumb-suck. These are facts.
They are in the report.
In the past year, we have seen labour unrest cripple Parliament and,
owing to another damning finding by the CCMA, Parliament had to fork
out – yes, colleagues – Parliament had to fork out almost
R38 million unnecessarily.
In terms of performance information interventions implemented, we
require further improvements to ensure audit compliance and
performance improvements. The legislation and oversight programme,
which missed more than 60% of its target – more than 60% of its
target – further suffers a 13,4% vacancy rate. While this does not
sound like much, programmes such as legislation and oversight
require highly skilled personnel, and this programme affects the
highly specialised legal advisory and drafting services on which we
are so dependent, as well as the Parliamentary Budget Office, the
Questions Office and, of course, similarly skilled units. These
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 18
offices are key to assisting us to fulfil our constitutional
mandate.
Hon Chairperson, I say this will due respect: your House is in
disarray.
Programmes are often unreliable. The former Chief Whip could not
gather a quorum in the House on multiple occasions; officials in
both the NA and NCOP are making clearly political decisions;
irregular expenditure is amounting to almost R15 million over the
period in review; fruitless and wasteful expenditure increased
almost 50% year on year; and, listen carefully, consulting and
professional fees related to legal costs have increased by 104,3% to
almost R15 million.
Of the above cases of irregular and fruitless expenditure, just over
R1 million was condoned by the accounting officer, leaving just over
R14 million or over 92% of this expenditure as unjustified. Every
cent wasted was a cent that could have been spent ensuring increased
oversight over legislation impacting on the provinces throughout the
country.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 19
As recommended by the Auditor-General, Parliament should enhance
processes and controls around the supply-chain-management process to
sustain a controlled environment that supports compliance with
regulations; and we look forward to scrutinising these processes
once they appear again before the joint committees.
We cannot effectively fulfil our role when it common knowledge that
basic administration, such as receiving documentation timeously or
notifications of cancellations of meetings, is in disarray. I thank
you. [Applause.]
Afrikaans:
Die HUISVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Mnr A J Nyambi): Agb Voorsitter,
agb Adjunkvoorsitter, agb Hoofsweep, agb lede, dames en here, ...
14:28
English:
Let me, even at the risk of sounding arrogant and self-serving,
applaud the success of our flagship programmes as an institution.
Through Taking Parliament to the People, Local Government Week,
Provincial Week and Oversight Week, we are able to touch base with
the cold interface of the struggles the masses of our people have to
put up with, in order to survive.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 20
SiSwati:
Nina belubhalulo lweSibawu sakitsi simabanda ngampondvo
Nina beLivuso leladl‘ umuntfu longekhatsi, longaphandle wasindza
ngekubaleka! Nina baMgobo kaMpande kamngeni es‘gujini ungena
emagabelweni enyatsi!
English:
Even as we undertook the trip to Free State during the preliminary
visit for the Taking Parliament to the People programme, we were
mindful that this was not just a compliance matter but an exercise
of our Constitutional mandate which, above being lawmakers, enjoins
us to promote public participation as well as exercise oversight on
the effectiveness of the in providing services to communities. In as
much as we focussed mainly on health issues, we were not going to
turn a blind eye on any matter which needed attention. And, indeed,
other matters such as youth unemployment, lack of housing, poor road
infrastructure and poverty.
We are appreciative of the role the fourth estate continues to play
in amplifying the voices of the masses of our people and in being
able to capture the mood on the ground. It was, therefore, an honour
to field a myriad of questions from journalists representing
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 21
different media houses on the first day of the programme as we got
the opportunity to clearly spell out what the programme of Taking
Parliament to the People entails.
We also got to dispel some of the myths attached to oversight visits
which we undertake to different provinces and municipalities. Ours
is not a fault finding mission and neither is it a witch-hunt
expedition. It is, I repeat, an exercise of our constitutional
mandate for which we will not apologize. We remain committed to
ensuring that provincial departments and local municipalities
function efficiently and effectively together for the benefit of
communities. These, it must be stressed, are the first visible forms
of government whose posture represents the difference between
acceptable levels of satisfaction with the delivery of services and
communities being satisfied.
IsiZulu:
Nina beNkashane kaMenzi ephuza umlaza ngameva! Nina beLembe eleqa
amanye amaLembe ngokukhalipha! Nina BakaMadumehlezi ka menzi!
English:
We are, therefore, mindful of the mammoth task at hand as we seek to
ensure that committees in the NCOP receive the requisite support
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 22
needed to perform their tasks as alluded to by the hon Chairperson
of this House.
If I may go back a bit, I would allude to the strategic planning and
review session which we held in the first term as a necessary tool
to assist committees to plan for the year ahead. We continue to
interface with committees, as an office, to ensure that annual
performance plans are aligned to the strategic objectives of the
Fifth Parliament and that there is a greater alignment between what
committees do on a daily basis and the programme of the NCOP.
We continue to monitor and evaluate the calibre of applications that
we are receiving and as well as we seek means to efficiently process
and store these seamlessly. I can report that we are getting better
every day hon Essack.
SiSwati:
Tinja tikhonkhotsa imoto lehambako, lemile atiyikhonkhotsi.
Getting better every day means we are able to contribute towards the
NCOP being able to fulfil the mandate of Parliament. For a moment,
allow me to indulge you on how the NCOP is better placed to carry
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 23
out this mandate with a particular bias to oversight. In performing
oversight responsibilities, we review, monitor and supervise
programmes, activities and policy implementation by government
departments and municipalities.
The clustering of committees also opens another unique window where
MEC‗s, Ministers and Executive Mayors can be called in under one
roof to account on the bottlenecks which pose limitations to the
delivery of services. Am I satisfied that we are drawing full value
from our unique character as committees in the NCOP? The answer is
No!
Am I satisfied that we are making some meaningful progress?
Yes, I am, but the insights that we are gaining everyday indicate
that we can still do more. Whereas it is a good thing to attend
functions which are organised by departments and other government
entities, we should guard against being representatives of them in
the NCOP.
Xitsonga:
Nwina matluka yaNgungunyane; Va tukulu va Dambe na Gwavane.
English:
At this point, I need to point out that we continue to capacitate
committees with relevant oversight tools so that whatever committees
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 24
do, does not come across as a compliance gimmick but an oversight
action that will yield positive results. To this extent, we have
established a very cordial relationship with the office of the
Auditor-General and just last week we invited him to take us through
the audit outcomes of local government.
It is a serious indictment on our oversight function when, year-onyear, we get confronted with cold facts to the effect that internal
controls and supervision in many of our municipalities is still a
challenge. Indeed, the issue of consequent management has to gain
traction.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, communities are privy to these audit
outcomes and often get frustrated to a point of mobilizing against
government when there is a perception that nothing is being done to
punish offenders. We plead with communities to exercise patience as
they await delivery of essential services.
We are enhancing our oversight as we believe that oversight does not
have to be ambiguous. It has to say that there is value for money in
a service that was rendered or that there has been disposition
without value and, therefore, that there will be consequences for
those who abuse their positions.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 25
The meeting we had with the Auditor-General has made a suggestion
for the evaluation of the effectiveness of the Back to Basics
Programme.
Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA,
National Treasury and the office of the Auditor General have been
cited as key stakeholders that have to convene for the above purpose
and where I see this as an opportunity to recalibrate our oversight
mechanisms.
Let me also touch on the other leg of our tri-pot function as an
institution, public participation. The importance of public
participation is captured clearly in our Constitution. I‘m sure we
all agree that the Land Access Movement of South Africa, Lamosa,
Judgement as explained by the Chairperson will go a long way instead
of reflecting bad about us to always give us something that will
pave a way forward.
As this year we are celebrating OR Tambo he said: ―The fight for
freedom must go on until it is won; until our country is free and
happy and peaceful as part of the community of man, we cannot rest.
We have a vision of South Africa in which black and white shall live
and work together as equals in conditions of peace and prosperity.
We seek to create a united and non-racial society‖
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 26
Before I conclude, I need to impress on all of us that what we are
doing today – should not be misconstrued as just compliance to the
NCOP or parliamentary budget vote
Working together as different units in the NCOP, we have widely
circulated a Practice Note which sought to respond to the judgement.
As I conclude, I need to impress on all of us that what we are doing
today should not be misconstrued as just an act of compliance with
the NCOP budget vote. Instead, it has to be seen as articulating our
vision for the future.
Let me borrow from Dr Davis Cormak‗s wise words when he said:
―Without vision there is no direction, without direction there is no
purpose, without purpose there is no target, without target there
are no priorities, without priorities, there is no plan Without a
plan, there is no hope.‖
Hon. Members, I can confirm one thing without any fear of
contradiction. Under the leadership of Hon T Modise and hon B Mbete,
in Parliament there is Vision, there is direction, there is purpose
there are targets and, finally, there is a clearly defined plan. On
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 27
the basis of what I have said we support this budget vote.
[Applause.]
Hon Essack, I will be doing an injustice if I don‘t correct some of
the distortions you are making here. As members we have an
opportunity every day in committees to call any person that we think
he has done something that wrong, it is our responsibility – not
even an issue of favours – and when we come here to debate a budget
vote, there is a plan that I have alluded to. Let‘s discuss the
plan, let‘s critique it, let‘s enrich the plan and make sure that it
responds to the challenges that are facing us so that everyday we
are equal to the task.
Mr F ESSACK: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order. Through you,
will the speaker on the podium take a question from me?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, are you prepared to
take a question?
Mr A J NYAMBI: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is prepared to take a
question.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 28
Mr F ESSACK: Great. I would to check with the speaker on the podium
– is he proposing or suggesting that the Auditor-General‘s report of
the fruitless and wasteful expenditure be condoned? Simple question,
he must give us a yes or no answer.
Mr A J NYAMBI: You know very that the answer is a big no. however, I
will respond to you in wise words that says; ―sometimes it is better
to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and
leave no doubt.‖
In conclusion, in 2007 ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: hon member, on what point are
you rising?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, after that [14:42] I would like to know I
the hon member will take a question from?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you prepared to take a
question hon member?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 29
Mr A J NYAMBI: ... hopefully, you will be the last one. I am not
afraid I can take your question.
Mr W F FABER: the member on the podium was just now suggesting that
you rather keep quite than talking nonsense but I don‘t think the
Auditor-General‗s report was nonsense. Does he actually suggest that
he was talking nonsense?
Mr A J NYAMBI: ... hon Deputy Chairperson, I am afraid I am tempted
to say what I have said earlier on is more relevant to the last one.
In conclusion, allow me to quote Mandela who uttered these words
which will be our challenge as we chat our way forward as the NCOP.
―Massive poverty and equality are such terrible scourges of our
times. They have to rank alongside slavery and apartheid. Overcoming
poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act of justice. It is
the protection of fundamental human right. The right to dignity a
decent life.‖ That is what should always be guiding us.
Deputy Chairperson, let me indicate that we fully support the budget
vote. It has got a clear vision and clear plan. It is going to
assist us to improve where there are challenges. Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 30
Ms D B NGWENYA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon members, fellow South
Africans, the Economic Freedom Fighters rejects Budget Vote 2 on
Parliament. Parliament, made up of these two Houses, the National
Assembly and the National Council of Provinces, ought to be the
voice of the people. Members of both these Houses, when they take
their oaths, commit themselves to be loyal and truthful to the
Constitution of the Republic, to the citizens of this nation, and to
uphold the rule of law.
They are required to put the interests of the nation above their own
personal interests, above the interests of their own organisations
when those interests are in direct conflict with the interests of
the nation.
The Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the
National Council of Provinces have a responsibility, according to
our Constitution, to preside fairly, transparently and impartially
over the proceedings of Parliament.
Further, section 42(2) of the Constitution empowers Parliament to
maintain national security; to maintain economic unity; to maintain
essential national standards; to establish minimum standards
required for the rendering of services; to prevent unreasonable
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 31
action taken by a province, which is prejudicial to the interests of
another province or to the country as a whole.
This means that, as the voice of the people, Parliament must at all
times be prepared to rise above narrow political interests and
intervene when the country is losing direction. It means Parliament
should ideally be the last hope of the people and fight on behalf of
the people against corruption, against unscrupulous leaders, against
the capturing of the state for the narrow interests of particular
families and individuals. However, this Parliament has been the most
factional since 1994.
This Parliament has completely blurred the lines between the party
and the state. This Parliament has shamelessly lost track of their
constitutional responsibility to hold the executive to account, to
prevent those who hold executive power from using it to compromise
our nation and to line up their pockets.
We have been limping from one constitutional disaster to another
since 2014, from the time Baleka Mbete decided to bring in police to
beat up EFF Members of Parliament, whose only sin was demanding that
Mr Zuma must pay back the money used to build a private mansion of
corruption for himself in Nkandla.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 32
Both Houses of Parliament ...
Sesotho:
Mme M L MOSHODI: Motsamaisi wa dipuisano, ke ne ke re ho setho se
hlomphehang ha re na Baleka Mbete, empa re na le setho se
hlomphehang Baleka Mbete.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: (Mr R J TAU): May I just rule
that we respect one another and refer to each other as honourable
members.
Ms D B NGWENYA: Both Houses of Parliament have since then been used
as some sort of a China wall between corrupt leaders and
accountability. We all know how the former Public Protector was
treated. We all know how Parliament let the SABC do as they please
when they came to account.
We all know how Parliament refused to hold Minister Bathabile
Dlamini to account on the South Africa Social Security Agency,
Sassa, matter until the last days. We all know how Parliament rubber
stamps decisions of the executive, such as the appointment of Dudu
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 33
Myeni back to the South African Airways, SAA, board she has
corrupted.
All this happens because we have a leadership that has completely
lost all remnants of morality, with an uncontrollable urge to loot.
As much as we initially ... While all these shenanigans are
happening, Parliament has been presiding over the worst form of
worker abuse. Just recently, the Secretary to Parliament, Gengezi
Mgidlana, sent out a memo to Parliament staff, informing them that
they will not receive any salary increases this year. This is
because Parliament has no money to pay staff. Of course, this
happens after Mgidlana has been going all over the world, being
chauffer driven and sleeping in top-of-the-range hotels.
More horrifying, Parliament has allowed the corrosive system of
labour brokering to continue unabatedly and right under their noses.
The cleaning staff and those in restaurants, work under extremely
difficult conditions, and get paid peanuts.
But while Parliament purportedly has no money to pay their own
staff, and have no money to in-source all services, they do have
money to pay the bouncers they recruited from the South African
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 34
Police Service. A few weeks ago, Parliament announced that they will
be paying these bouncers danger pay, for kicking around Members of
Parliament.
All these are symptoms of rot that has affected all spheres of the
ANC. It is no longer in touch with the needs of the people. It has
reduced itself and is now reducing the nation to its shallower-thanpit levels of gutter thinking.
Parliament has unfortunately failed to do as required by the
Constitution and has repeatedly shown the nation a middle finger.
We should be at the forefront of passing legislation that protects
poor infant industries from unfair global competition. We should be
at the forefront of protecting workers from unscrupulous
exploitative forms of labour. We should be setting a high moral
standard for our nation.
But now, we have been reduced to fighting the battles of just one
man, Mr Gedleyihlekisa Zuma. We, as the EFF, reject this Budget
Vote.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 35
Ms M C DIKGALE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Chairperson, hon Chief
Whip, hon members, fellow South Africans, it is indeed a great
pleasure and honour for me to take part in this Budget Vote of
Parliament, where we are celebrating 20 years of the Constitution
and 20 years of the NCOP. We are also celebrating the centenary of
the birth of one the great leaders of our struggle, the iconic
Oliver Reginald Tambo. As we debate this year‘s budget, the question
would thus be, ―Is it worth it to celebrate?‖. In the words of
William Shakespeare we would say, ―To celebrate or not celebrate:
that‘s the question.‖
As hon members would know, one of Parliament‘s functions is to
participate in international relations and ratify international law
instruments in terms of section 231 of the Constitution. It is in
line with this constitutional provision that one of the Fifth
Parliament strategic objective is deepening representation and
participation in international fora. In the 2016-17 financial year,
Parliament has continued with its affiliation and participation in
multilateral bodies such as the Interparliamentary Union, IPU, the
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, CPA, the Pan-African
Parliament, PAP, Southern African Development Community
Parliamentary Forum, SADC PF and etc. These are institutions that
are geared at advancing parliamentary democracy by enhancing
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 36
knowledge and understanding of democratic governance. Our
participation in and affiliation to this institutions are therefore
driven by the need to upholds the universal values and principles of
democracy, respect of the rule of law and human rights. With regard
to Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, parliament is still
lobbying and pushing for the change of its status as a charity. Our
position, which is the position of the whole CPA Africa region is
that the work of the organisation cannot be defined as charity but
as political work. At the regional and continental level we continue
to give the necessary support SADC PF and the PAP respectively in
their endeavour to become legislative bodies.
As we speak, the PAP has just finished holding its fourth ordinary
session of the Fourth Parliament in Midrand wherein the same old
call was made for South Africa and other member states to ratify the
Pap protocol and that was approved by the African Union in June 2014
for the Pap to realise its aim of becoming a legislative body for
the continent.
Our [[non[[movement on this issue of ratification of the Pap
protocol is really a matter of concern and we must really engage the
executive on this. However, there are some positives on the PAP.
Members would recall that there were always issues of security,
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 37
especially robberies, during every session of the PAP, which the
Chairperson has made reference to. Well, this is now a thing of the
past as the zero-incidence at the recent session attested.
This is mainly due to the Pan-African Parliament high level task
team that is a joint effort between Parliament‘s presiding officers
and the stakeholder Ministries of Department of International
Relations and Co-operation, Public Works and Police.
The task team has facilitated increased numbers of the police
personnel that are deployed at the PAP to protect delegates as well
as better communication between the PAP and the South African
authorities, especially the SA Police Services. The task team will
be meeting regularly to ensure that the PAP issues are given all
necessary attention, especially at the political level. I want to
clarify members that what is at issue here is the annexes to the
host agreement that need to be updated. These annexes deal with
provision of services and equipment as well as permanent building
for the PAP, that South Africa must make to the PAP. The engagement
with Department of International Relations and Co-operation, which
is the custodian of this host agreement are continuing.
Other achievements that we can list in the 2016-17 financial year
include the following: The subcommittee task team to review the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 38
policy perspectives and operational guidelines for Parliament‘s
involvement and engagement in international affairs has been
established and chaired by hon Makue. It will report to the PGIR in
due course. All focus groups on multilateral bodies that Parliament
is affiliated to are meeting and considering their reports, and
these are being adopted by the PGIR as they are transmitted thereto.
Work on the establishment of bilaterals focus group is in progress.
This will be also subject or agenda item of the upcoming PGIR
workshop to be held in June or August.
One area that we have not moved on is with regard to resumption of
our membership or affiliation to Senates, Shoora and Equivalent
Councils in Africa and the Arab World, Asseccaa, which is a body for
the Upper House of Parliament. The main stumbling block in this
regard is the subscription arrears that Parliament has accumulated
to date. We are not sure whether this will augur well with our costcutting measures.
So, having reflected on these past activities; the answer to the
question, ―to celebrate or not to celebrate‖ should be in the
affirmative. Parliament really derives great value for money and
experience from participating in these international events.
However, we cannot participate optimally in our international
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 39
relations obligations unless we have strong analytical and content
driven support within the International Relations and Protocol
Division, IRPD. I therefore want to formally inform members that the
new IRPD Manager, Mr Dumisani Job Sithole, started working in
January this year and is already hard at work. The IRPD manager
position is one of the few vacancies that made Parliament to get a
red flag from the Auditor-General in the past. This will thus no
longer happen, hon Essack.
In the current 2017-18 financial year budget, International
Relations and Co-operation is allocated R14 million for goods and
services. This means all the accommodation, subsistence and
travelling costs for our international participation will have to be
covered from this amount. So we will need to keep the delegations to
these international events to the minimum. This does not, however,
mean we will compromise on our participation. It only means we will
do much with less.
With regard to members‘ support, hon members would be aware that
during last year‘s Budget Vote debate, I reported that Quarterly
Consultative Forum, which was a body dealing with member‘s interests
and facilities was abolished and would be replaced by a new body in
line with the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 40
Legislatures Act. Members would be glad to know that the new body,
now called Members‘ Support and Facilities Forum, was inaugurated in
March this year.
Our office is continuing to do the audit of offices of hon members
to ensure that members have all necessary tools of trade to do their
work. Members‘ facilities office has also prepared standardisation
documents for various offices to ensure that no member is
prejudiced. One major issue of concern is still a lack of space at
Parliament. However, this is receiving attention through the office
utilisation project, which is the project of the presiding officers.
In terms of the current budget, members support services is
allocated R500 000 for goods and services and members facilities is
allocated R160 000 . These, however, exclude information and
communication technology, ICT, which has a separate budget. These
allocations might be minimal, but we are hopeful that they will not
compromise the functioning of Members of Parliament in carrying out
their responsibilities.
These are some of the key issues that occupied our business during
the 2016-17 financial year, and we will be continuing with some of
them during the current financial year with necessary adjustments
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 41
where needed. We are hopeful that we will be able to achieve this
with the budget that we were given for this financial year, no
matter how meagre it is. And indeed we shall celebrate our
achievements thus far.
Sepedi:
Ke be ke nyaka go bolela le mohl Ngwenya gore ge ba ka itshwara
gabotse, ba hlompha balaodi ba Ntlo le Melao ya Palamente, tšhelete
ye ye ntšintši e ka se hlwe e e tšwa e e ya go šireletša Palamente.
Bjale, lena ge le ka itshwara, le tla re bolokela tšhelete. Ke a
leboga.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy Chairperson of the Council and hon
Chairperson, Parliament is one of the most important institutions in
the vehicle of our democracy to ensure that the voice of the people
is audible in the process. The NCOP, as another House in the two
Houses of Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, also has an
important role to play. The NCOP specifically represents the
interests of provinces in the national sphere of government. This is
a role that cannot be overlooked. It is a role that provides that
there be checks and balances, and also for the influence of
provinces in the legislation and policies that get passed by
Parliament. This is a role that must not be taken for granted by the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 42
very members of the NCOP themselves. If that happens, it will be
easy for any other structure or individual in the country to also
treat the NCOP likewise.
Our Constitution is very clear on the separation of powers.
Parliament legislates and determines policy. The executive
implements policy through the Budget that gets legislated in
Parliament. The judiciary watches over the diversions and corrects
the implementation of policy.
Members of Parliament, MPs, must take the executive to task and get
them to account. It sometimes worries the IFP in this House when MPs
behave in a manner that reflects them as spokespersons of the
executive. Colleagues, you are not. Actually, the executive accounts
to you. In other words, the executive accounts to South Africa
through you.
Hon Chairperson of the Council, some of the shortcomings that this
institution has must be attended to. At times this hinders the
effectiveness of the programmes of the NCOP in performing its
functions.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 43
One hopes that, henceforth in the NCOP, there will be a smooth
working relationship between the office of the Chairperson of the
Council and the office of the Chief Whip. These are two senior and
most important offices of this Council.
Whilst congratulating our new Chief Whip, the hon Mohai, in his new
role, I also wish to remind him that he is the Chief Whip of the
whole NCOP and not just of the ANC. The irregular and ambiguous
treatment of the Whips of minority parties in the NCOP is a matter
that has remained unresolved for far too long.
Whilst several provisions of the rules of the NCOP recognise the
Whips of parties represented in the Council, the benefits of such
recognition is denied to the Whips of smaller parties in the NCOP.
We hope that the new Chief Whip, with the Chairperson of the Council
who is also aware of this anomaly, will bring this matter to
finality.
In our previous debate last year, I raised the issue of giving
recognition to all parties in our programmes when we go out to
provinces during the previsits and during Taking Parliament to the
People. Hon Chairperson, I am glad that your leadership has given
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 44
attention to this matter, so that when we go out to communities we
do so as the NCOP and not as ruling party and opposition.
The area that remains is the directing of the programmes during
Taking Parliament to the People sessions. These also should not be
solely reserved for the ruling party members of the NCOP.
I also raised the issue of support, especially human resource
support, which the institution is failing to allocate adequately to
our caucuses. I still plead with the powers that be to look into
this matter.
In the programmes of the NCOP we are, amongst other things, supposed
to be holding symposiums in tertiary institutions. This programme
was designed in order to give students a platform and voice to
engage MPs, while at the same time giving MPs an opportunity to
listen to and engage our future academics. This programme has never
gotten off the ground. It has just died a natural death. Maybe if it
had been prioritised, the fees must fall campaigns would not have
gone to the extent that they did.
In respect of the current commotion pertaining to the removal of the
President from office, the IFP is reminding this House that more
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 45
than a decade ago we called for the overhaul of the electoral system
so that the President of the country is elected directly by the
electorate. Whilst this has not yet happened, the IFP appeals to
colleagues in Parliament to be effective in holding the President
and the executive to account. Parliament cannot just be reduced by
fear to a state of nothingness by those who hold certain keys to
your upward mobility. I thank you Deputy Chairperson.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, hon members,
distinguished special delegates, leaders of SA Local Government
Association, Salga, fellow South Africans, This Budget Vote debates
coincides with Africa‘s month, the month that calls us, united in
diversity, to reflect on the collective heritage of Africa, its
challenges and achievements in the post-colonial era. Critical to
socioeconomic challenges facing Africa in our times, is the ever
deepening levels of unemployment, poverty and inequalities. The
persistence of these challenges continues to question our
fundamental assumptions about democracy and parliament. Key amongst
the fundamental questions presented by these challenges is; how do
we reposition Parliament as a true activists and people‘s Parliament
capable to respond to the needs of the people for a better quality
of life for all. This is the greatest test facing Parliaments in the
21st century.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 46
As the former president of the International Parliamentary Union, Mr
Pier Ferdinando Casini observes:
The paradox of our times is that we hail the victory of democracy
while lamenting the fact that; in many countries Parliament as a
central institution of democracy is facing the crisis of
legitimacy. The executive branch dominates the agenda,
international co-operation and globalisation has led to decisionmaking that lacks democratic control, and people question whether
current political processes are really able to produce Parliaments
that can represent their interests in all their diversity.
As we debate this Budget Vote of Parliament, we ought to ask the
fundamental question; are we equal to the task as an activist
people‘s Parliament; what are the key indicators that define and
distinguish us as an activist people‘s Parliament? We pose these
questions not out of affinity for intellectual posture but because
their answers are fundamental to the projects of radical
socioeconomic transformation in the current epoch. We in the ANC
enter this debates inspired by the fact that; it takes place in the
year declared by the ANC as the year of Oliver Reginald Tambo. It is
no exaggeration that; the intellectual and philosophical genesis of
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 47
the constitution and its institutions that we so celebrate today in
South Africa can only be traced in the footprints of this giant of
our revolution, the late Oliver Reginald Tambo.
From exploratory talks with the selected influential groups of
Afrikaners to the drafting of the constitutional guidelines for the
post-apartheid South Africa, O R Tambo never ceased to champion the
kind of society where all can live together in common brotherhood.
We owe it to Oliver Tambo and his generation to defend the
Constitution and its institution as a collective heritage of our
people, united in diversity. The last 23 years of our democratic
Parliament is a narrative of identity formation, institution
building and consolidation. We did these not because we chose to but
as part of aligning our institutional culture, systems and
structures with the fundamental values and principles of the
Constitution. Part of what we celebrate with great sense of pride is
the evolution of the internal institutional oversight mechanism of
Parliament.
As the hon members would recall, in 2009 we passed legislation on
the Financial Management of Parliament and Legislatures Act No 10 of
2009. Amongst the critical objects of this legislation is to provide
mechanism for the oversight of the financial management of
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 48
Parliament. The Joint Rules of Parliament have since been amended to
align with this legislation by establishing the Joint Standing
Committee on the Financial Management of Parliament. We should
however note that this committee is still at its formative stage
although it has already processed significant amount of reports
through the two Houses of our Parliament.
We should hasten to point out that the core mandate of this
committee is to oversee the financial administration of Parliament,
not to make policy. The policy-making and execution resides with the
executive authority in the form of the Chairperson of the National
Council of Provinces and the Speaker of the National Assembly. The
governance architecture of Parliament has established robust and
vibrant due processes and structures to give voice to all parties in
the policy-making of Parliament. Amongst these structures are the
Joint Rules Committee and the plenaries of the two Houses which give
final stamp of authority on all policy instruments of Parliament. By
its nature, oversight, as opposed to policy-making and execution is
an after the act phenomenon where reports accounting on the
executive actions are scrutinised.
Of course this does not preclude the committee to consider any
matter of public interests relevant to its mandate. Any posture to
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 49
the contrary amount to dragging Members of Parliament into the
administration space, a danger we should guard against because coadministration is not only against corporate governance but defeats
the very same purpose of oversight. Politicians must leave the
administration of Parliament to the administration and vice versa.
We are raising this issue so that we do not overstretch the
strategic focus of this Joint Standing Committee. As an apex
institution of democracy, Parliament is ideally expected to be an
employer of choice attracting, training and retaining the best
talents in society. Critical to this is a professional, collegial
and stable labour relations environment which is also a core
management function. How the labour strike nearly brought Parliament
into a virtual shut down last year due to unresolved disputes
between the organised labour and the management of Parliament. The
failure to resolve disputes is a sign of two critical deficiencies,
namely; the collapse of trust between the organised labour and the
management as the employer representative, and the weaknesses in the
collective bargaining systems and structures and ineffective
institutional complaints and grievance procedures. We all agree that
greater attention should be given to addressing these weaknesses. As
we do this, we must avoid the danger of turning the Joint Standing
Committee on Financial Management of Parliament into employees‘
grievance mechanism as this would only further weaken the existing
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 50
bargaining processes and structures which have the full force of
law.
Without meaningful and effective participation of provinces and
political parties in the political management of the core business
of Parliament, confusion and collapse of trust are bound to take
centre stage. The provincial Whips and party representatives play a
critical role in this regard within the bounds of democracy. The
review of the role and operations of the National Council of
Provinces, NCOP, Whippery will receive greater attention. Critical
amongst the areas that require urgent attention are; how the
Whippery interface with other strategic units of the NCOP, like the
Presiding Officers, provinces and Committee of Chairpersons and the
proactive facilitation of interparty dialogue on critical and
burning issues affecting the institution. We will do this cognisant
that the office of the NCOP Chief Whip is by design an institutional
position, as stated by hon Khawula. This requires the Chief Whip to,
amongst others; act above party political interests by seeking to
facilitate consensus amongst the provinces and political parties.
This is surely not an easy task. Allow me in conclusion to extent my
humble gratitude to all members of this august House for their
confidence in voting for me as a Chief Whip of the NCOP, and my
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 51
party and my party, the ANC for the confidence entrusted in me as a
Chief Whip. I must also recognise the selfless services of my
predecessor, Dr Mateme and wish her the best in her new endeavours.
Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Ms Thandi Modise,
we in the ANC understand what enjoins us together as colleagues is
nothing else but pursue the mandate of our people for a better
quality of life for all. In pursuing this mandate, we are guided by
the Constitution, the Rule of the House. We are confident that we
are steering the National Council of Provinces in the right
direction. That this truly becomes a forum for advocacy of
provincial interests. Our work in committees is remarkable under the
leadership of the House Chairpersons, Ms Dikgale and hon Nyambi, we
are confident that we shall accomplish our task. The ANC supports
the budget. [Applause.]
Mr M WILEY: Deputy Chairperson, firstly, may I congratulate the new
Chief Whip of the NCOP and wish him well. I look forward to fruitful
negotiations and discussions with him in the future. I would like to
address myself to the sponsor of this debate, the Chairperson of the
NCOP and thank her very much for her lucid opening. The Chairperson
referred to the importance of separation of powers into the
relevance of the NCOP, I couldn‘t agree more.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 52
However, I think and I must agree with some of the speakers who say
that, in reality we are going in another direction. Other speakers
have spoken about the problems they are currently experiencing in
the execution of their tasks, and programming is one of them. This
debate, for instance, was not on the order paper up until last
night. It was originally on the order paper then it was taken off,
and it was only confirmed to my legislature last night. That is the
first thing.
Secondly, there is another shackling taking place of a very
important debate tomorrow which, if we are sincere in our wanting to
address a critical weakness in South Africa, and at the moment, is
the abuse of women and children, then we wouldn‘t have told the
legislatures yesterday that, there is a debate tomorrow about the
abuse of women and children in South Africa.
In my constituency alone, there is a headline article of Hannah
Cornelius, she comes from my area, and I was with her parent on
Sunday after this young student was tragically murdered by thugs on
Saturday night. I really would like to participate; I would love
that other people participate in this, especially from other
provinces. But, how do you schedule your programme, if you are told
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 53
48 hours in advance that as members of the nine different provinces
we must send delegates to participate in such a critical debate.
So, Chief Whip I hope that, as you are going forward you‘ll take us
into account that scheduling this sitting here, is very, very
important. But the issue is that, this House is representing nine
geographic entities which are not located in Cape Town; they are
located around the country. So, for them to participate fully, they
need to be able to get here timeously.
Chairperson, I want to concentrate on another more serious matter,
and I hope that the interjector will listen carefully. The issue is
about the constitutionality of the Financial Management of
Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act and the Job Legislatures
Bill.
Ms N P KONI : I am rising on a point of order, Chairperson!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: What is
the point of order?
Setswana:
Ms N P KONI: Ke kopa gore...
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 54
English:
... this land thief must not call me the interjector.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Come
again!
Moh N P KONI: Ka re motho yo o utswileng lefatshe a seka a mpitsa ka
maina. A se ka tla fano go tla go re kgwela mathe a bua ka ngwanyana
wa lekgowa. Go reng a sa bue ka ngwanyana wa Motswana wa motho o
montsho?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I would
not sustain the point of order. I think that, that point of order is
out of order. We don‘t have thieves here in this House. Therefore, I
would not sustain that point of order.
MR M WILEY: Thank you Chairperson, for the record, the word that I
used was the interjector.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: It‘s
interjection, not interpreter. I didn‘t hear him saying, the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 55
interpreter. I just forgot that part. I heard him saying
interjector. Can I take this point, hon member?
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Deputy Chair, I think we are sinking to new lows
here. Is it acceptable for a member to call another member a landthief?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I ruled
on that.
Mr C HATTINGH: She hasn‘t withdrawn. It‘s on Hansard!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I made
a ruling on that, hon member, that we don‘t have thieves in this
House.
Mr C HATTINGH: My question is why shouldn‘t she withdraw, or are you
afraid of the consequences, Deputy Chair?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
member, I think you are out of order. I didn‘t sustain that point of
order.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 56
Mr M WILEY: Thank you very much Deputy Chairperson, for the interest
of the interjector I can show you my transfer deed and also the
payment for the property that I have. As far as this matter is
concerned, on a number of occasions, both on the 6 May 2016 as well
as the 27 July 2016, that the speaker ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes,
hon member. On what point are you rising?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order! The
member in front of me is loudly accusing the speaker to being a
thief, and I think that she must really retract that. I think that,
if you want to be part of the debate, I don‘t think, as we all
agree, to just be like vibrant, but not to accuse someone of being a
thief. That is not parliamentary, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
members, can we agree that I made a ruling on the matter that we are
not thieves and that there is nobody who is a thief in this House. I
also appealed to all of us to respect one another. Can you continue
hon member?
Mr M WILEY: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson!
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 57
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: There
is another point from the hon Julius.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Apologies to the speaker, Chairperson, I think
that, that was another point of order; it was another matter. You
need to rule on that matter separately.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: What
matter is that?
Mr J W W JULIUS: The matter that was raised now.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No,
it‘s the same matter!
Mr J W W JULIUS: The point of order! No, she just did it again!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: It was
the same matter! It was about using a word for referring to ...
[Interjections.] Can I just conclude on this?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 58
Mr J W W JULIUS: What I‘m saying is, Chairperson, can I just explain
to you why I‘m saying it? It is because hon Koni can say it again!
Then you say that, it‘s okay because I made a ruling. She can say it
again! You cannot just say, it‘s okay, I made a ruling! It doesn‘t
work that way! You must rule on each and every case. Thank you,
Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
member, I made a ruling on this particular matter! Hon Koni, order,
please! Please be in order, hon Koni! We have made this ruling
before even in the House as the Presiding Officers that, there is
nothing wrong in hackling, but don‘t hackle a member to a point
where now we can‘t even hear what a member is saying. You can‘t do
that! On what point are you rising, hon Essack?
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, with due respect on the same issue, for
the decorum of the House, why don‘t you throw this member out?
[Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No,
that is not a point of order! Can you continue with the debate, hon
Wiley?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 59
Mr M WILEY: May I just ask, how much time I got that is left for me?
Is this the correct time?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes!
Mr M WILEY: Okay! As the Speaker of the Western Cape Legislature has
tried on two occasions to get clarity from the Speaker of the
National Assembly relating to this matter of the unconstitutional
and constitutionality of Financial Management of Parliament and
Provincial Legislatures Act and the Draft Legislature Bill, she
received no response with the exception on the 29 September, 18
August rather, the response was that to a legal opinion would be got
but we had nothing since then. It has been raised in the Speakers‘
Forum and it was then referred to the legislatures.
Now, I am reliably informed that this matter has not been raised in
the other legislatures. It has been discussed in our rules
committee, but it has not been discussed in other legislatures.
Therefore, I am bringing some things to your attention. At the heart
of our concern, is the scope of the institutional autonomy of the
provincial legislatures.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 60
Secondly, according to the Constitution, the determining control of
internal arrangements proceedings and procedures has been provided
for in terms of section 116 of the Constitution. Our concerns are
based on the following broad principles: Firstly, that national
legislation that purports the internal arrangements procedures and
proceedings of provincial legislatures, where the Constitution does
not specifically sanction this, violates the separation of powers.
Secondly, that the power of the provincial legislatures determines
and controls its own internal arrangements procedures and
proceedings is an exclusive power to be exercised by that provincial
legislature alone. I hope that the other provinces are listening.
Thirdly, the exclusive power of the provincial legislatures is to
determine and control its own internal arrangements, proceedings and
procedures.
Also, they have powers to make rules and orders concerning the
business of the legislature; the power to make decisions on
questions before the legislatures; to establish structures and
systems within the legislatures that facilitates the administration
and business; the power to define the roles, functions and
authorities of all parliamentary officers, including the Speaker and
staff.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 61
Ladies and gentlemen, this Draft Legislature Bill here wants to
prescribe to you from the Speaker‘s office of the National Assembly
who to appoint and where to appoint them. There are powers to
appoint, directives, guidelines and policies to recognise
conventions and customs regarding matters concerning the
administration and the business of the legislature.
The fourth principle is in respect of the provincial legislatures,
the national legislation may only prescribe basic values and
principles. Fifthly, neither the Speaker of the National Assembly
nor the Chairperson of the NCOP, and there ladies and gentlemen, is
a fundamental problem because, if you can have the separation
between the two Houses of Parliament, in other words, the National
Assembly and the NCOP, why is the executive authority made out of
the Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the
NCOP? Where is the separation? And they want to prescribe to the
legislatures.
Each provincial legislature has got its own Speaker in terms of the
Constitution. The executive authority of Parliament has no powers in
respect of provincial legislatures. There is no authority for the
executive of Parliament to regulate the internal matters of the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 62
provincial legislatures. Sixthly, it is impermissible for the
executive authority of Parliament to attempt to extend the authority
of the internal arrangements of the provincial legislatures.
Should a statutory body be established, to provide for co-operation
between institutions in the legislative sector, it would not be
constitutionally permissible for the individual legislature‘s
internal arrangements to be subjected to a collective decision of
such a statutory body. And I could go on, to an extent that the
national legislation either than the Preferential Procurement Policy
Framework Act of 2000 purports to usurp the power to determine the
provincial legislatures Preferential Procurement Policies, that
legislation risks creating a disruption between section 201(7) of
the Constitution and the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework
Act, and would be unconstitutional.
In our view, the Financial Management of Parliament and Provincial
Legislatures Act is unconstitutional in such, and there is a whole
list of schedules and clauses here, where we feel that there is a
lot of contraventions. Chapter 3 purports to structure and regulator
administration, in other words, the services of the provincial
legislatures beyond the prescription of the basic values and
principles.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 63
In other words, there are a whole host of clauses which are deemed
by us and our legal advisors to be unconstitutional. There are many
other objections to the Draft Legislative Sectors Bill. But, these
relate to technical and drafting issues, rather than fundamental,
underlying constitutional flaws. We are hopeful that the legitimate
concerns that the Western Cape Provincial Parliament will seriously
considered, failing which, will have no option but to commence with
the proceedings to be judicially challenged.
But folks, we have already heard that the National Parliament spends
a lot of money on trying to justify the unjustifiable; trying to
make a bad law good law through the court. It doesn‘t work like
that. All that will happen is that the courts are going to determine
on the constitutionality of the legality of the laws they are
passing.
We are meant to be the lawmakers; we are meant to be making good
law. We are meant to be making bad law that we try and make right
through bad regulations. That is one of the things China is trying
to do. China made a bad piece of legislation good, through
regulation. It doesn‘t work like that!
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 64
The Marine Living Resources Bill is a bad law. It has impoverished
tens of thousands of people on the Western Cape Coast, whose only
income is based on subsistence fishing, through bad regulation that
is repeated year on year to those people who are denied access to
the sea. Folks, we cannot make laws of that nature. It‘s simply
doesn‘t work. It makes a laughing stock of us in the international
practice.
Opposition parties are unaware of these challenges because I do not
believe that the speakers from the Speakers Forums have made sure
that their legislatures are aware of this threat that has been
negotiated. I am raising it here in this forum today because, by the
time it get sent to the leg have only six weeks to process that
legislation. We are going to hold public hearings; it will come back
with lots of amendments and as per usual, will be ignored. I hope,
Deputy Chairperson and the Chairperson of the NCOP that our concerns
are noted. Thank you very much.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, thanks for taking part in this
debate. The Presiding Officers of this democratic Fifth Parliament
state in the foreword of the 2014-19 Strategic Plan:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 65
Parliament exists to represent people and to ensure their
involvement in government processes.
In this regard, and in the context of celebrating its 20 years of
existence, we would recommend that this House creates more
mechanisms for citizens to have access to all the laws made by the
Parliament.
We must move towards a participatory model of democracy anchored by
aggressive civic education. It is through knowledge that people can
understand and appreciate their responsibilities and rights in a
democracy. Without meaningful participation, development will be
lacking and all development efforts and alleviation of poverty will
be immensely difficult, if not impossible. People must be enabled to
take charge of their lives and solve their problems whilst
government and other development agencies are creating conducive
environment.
Secondly, the relationship between the parliamentary management and
the staff has to be addressed with speed. It cannot be correct that
each financial year we face possible labour actions because
management and the workers‘ representatives are unable to dialogue
effectively. The current dispute on salary increases and the alleged
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 66
threat of retrenchment do not augur well for the effective
functioning of this institution.
The outsourced function of cleaning requires reconsideration in
order to safeguard jobs. The employees have proposed that they be
insourced as Parliament staff, given that their service is
inherently part of the work of Parliament. We support the proposal
for insourcing. We propose that the Presiding Officers prioritise
this resolution.
Chairperson, on Taking Parliament to the People, one must note that
when we last took Parliament to Oudtshoorn, there were excessive and
unnecessary expenditures. For instance, hon Chetty and I were on a
26-seater bus going to Oudtshoorn but the same happened in
Bloemfontein. Nine members were loaded on a 26-seater bus. The
problem is: Who is benefiting from that? Which ANC member benefits
from that? These things must be looked at because you cannot hire a
bus for nine members. The bus has no shock absorbers.
Chairperson, hon Dikgale said that there is not much for
international trips. The trips of the Presiding Officers, who are
most of the time on the road, going up and down, must be reduced. We
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 67
have Presiding Officers who are hardly in Parliament. If you have
to, reduce the trips of the Presiding Officers.
Lastly, in support of hon Khawula, I do agree and suggest that Whips
are Whips. There is no better Whip than the other Whip. In the last
Parliament, Dennis Bloem of Cope was remunerated for Whippery. The
staff of Parliament must serve Parliament. If they had given the
correct information, we wouldn‘t be in this dilemma. It is the staff
of this Parliament. They must not only serve the ANC. They must
serve the opposition parties as well. We are members and we are
rightfully here as Members of Parliament. We are not apologetic for
being here. We must be served correctly by the staff. I thank you.
[Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
Gaehler, may I address you? I was saying that, on your way to the
podium, try to bargain for an extra minute. You have use up your
four allocated minutes. Thank you for that discipline.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Ooh, kaloku Sihlalo kudala ndakugqibela,
bendingaqinisekanga ukuba uza kubuya isenguwe njengoko ubethiwe
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 68
phaya eMntla Kapa. Kaloku bakuphaxule kakuhle eMntla Kapa mhlobo wam
kodwa ke masizilibale ezo zinto.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No, I
just thought I must bring that to your attention.
Afrikaans:
Mev C LABUSCHAGNE: Adjunkvoorsitter en agb lede, goeiemiddag – en
welkom, Adjunkvoorsitter. Jy is ‘n besoeker vandag hier by ons. Ons
het jou so lanklaas gesien. [Deputy Chair and hon members, good
afternoon. Welcome, Deputy Chair. Today, you are a visitor in this
House. It‘s been such a long time since we last saw you.]
English:
Good afternoon everyone, colleagues. I want to start off by agreeing
with hon Modise that we should overview ourselves. With that
backdrop, I want to focus on a few aspects. But, before I start with
that, I just want to correct or point out to hon Dikgale that
wasteful and fruitless as well as irregular expenditure was not due
to the behaviour of members but was mainly due to supply chain
management.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 69
Hon Chair, the strategic goal of enhancing oversight and
accountability through the Legislation and Oversight programme is
profoundly challenged by the vacancy of posts as well as a lack of a
clear legislative model. The NCOP‘s role in legislative processes is
defined in the Constitution - I don‘t have to go into that again.
The challenge of bills being returned by the Office of the President
highlights the necessity of clear criteria and standard operating
procedures in considering, reviewing and passing of bills.
Legislation should be measured by the impact it has on ordinary
people, financially as well as socioeconomically. Legislation has to
regulate processes and procedures within sectors and have to protect
the most vulnerable when it is effective. Currently, very few bills
do have an in-depth cost analysis, a financial impact assessment or
a serious implementation plan when they arrive in the NCOP. They
become legislation without any of these important aspects added in
the NCOP process.
In the Annual Report of 2015-16 financial year, a High Level
Independent Advisory Panel chaired by former President Motlanthe,
was established to identify gaps in existing legislation - or also
called Project 13. Why is it necessary to establish this panel if it
is one of the primary tasks of Parliament to make effective laws?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 70
Hon Chair, the goal to enhance public participation and strengthen
democratic participation is important and we agree that the
oversight model should be reviewed. The main role of the NCOP is to
elevate provincial issues by mainly participating in the legislative
process, according to section 42(4) of the Constitution, as we all
know.
A trend was set in the NCOP that public participation for section 76
Bills only took place in the provinces. For section 75 Bills, the
select committee of the NCOP merely considers the Bills without any
public participation, as it was done during the NA phase.
Due to bills being referred back to Parliament, specifically on the
grounds of a lack of public participation, the select committees of
the NCOP are now also calling for public participation for section
76 Bills and should do so for section 75 Bills as well, as stated in
the Constitution. We appreciate the position of the Chair in this
endeavour that enough time needs to be spent on these processes to
ensure effective public participation.
My concern with enhancing the ability of Parliament to exercise its
legislative powers is that we do exactly that. We utilise our
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 71
political party lines to vote in legislation without ensuring the
impact thereof on ordinary people.
Hon Chair, another goal of the strategic plan for Parliament is to
build a capable and productive parliamentary service. The 2015-16
Annual Report of Parliament states that:
The need for skills and expertise is a challenge. Parliament
needs to review its capacity needs.
The organogram of Parliament further indicates that the Deputy
Secretary of Parliament – that means NCOP and NA - is responsible
and accountable for five subdivisions or sections, one of which is
the NCOP - a post that the Deputy Secretary is also currently
filling. Does this imply accountability to oneself? It is clear that
the values of accountability, integrity and professionalism may be
compromised in a situation like this.
A 20% vacancy rate and freezing of posts while some allowances for
acting positions are being paid out for extended periods, is not a
good recipe to build a capable Parliament.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 72
The NCOP Chief Whip drama, or sometimes comedy that played itself
out over time, is a classic example of the challenge that lies in
the ability of the political and parliamentary executive to ensure
that Parliament fulfils its constitutional mandate. This drama was
filled with poor communication; poor planning and co-ordination of
programmes; not implementing some rules of Parliament; problems with
the process and procedures of questions; as well as the availability
of the executive to answer oral questions in the Council. It
hampered the functioning of Members of Parliament and necessitated
political intervention.
We are thankful that there are still members in the ANC who know
what difference is between right and wrong – a rare quality in those
ranks these days! We sincerely hope that the parking of the
effective functioning of the Chief Whip‘s Office will not be further
allowed in future. Hon Mohai, congratulations with your Chief Whip!
Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms T MOTARA: Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Chairperson, Madam
Modise, members of the NCOP, special delegates, esteemed guests,
ladies and gentlemen, allow me Deputy Chairperson to wish all our
Muslim brothers and sisters across our country, the continent and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 73
the world at large, a peaceful Ramadan and wish them well over the
fasting period, which commenced three days ago.
Today, as we debate Budget Vote 2, which is Parliament, we need to
ask ourselves critical questions; the legislative sector as a whole
and specifically Parliament, is responsible for many aspects of
governance, namely; oversight of the executive and the three spheres
of government, law making and public participation. Surely, in order
to oversee the way the executive implements its programmes beyond
spending compliance. Parliament needs to be adequately resourced,
supported, capacitated and skilled to deliver on its mandate.
Are our committees adequately equipped to ensure meaningful and
efficient oversight over an entire arm of state? I would argue not.
Many times, Parliament has been seen to be a Ministry of government,
when in fact it is an independent and separate arm of state. Up
until we really internalise the meaning of what Parliament should be
– an arm of state – we will begin to direct limited and critical
resources to where they will achieve outcomes that will see the
citizens of the country live better lives according to their
expectations.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 74
I am at no stage tying to suggest that just more resources
monetarily will deliver that outcome but it definitely will go a
long way to achieve such.
Hon Ngwenya, unfortunately your arguments against labour brokerage
are misdirected to the Speaker and Chairperson of the Council. As
part of our collective oversight and holding the executive to
account, our responsibility is to ensure that processes led by the
executive, particularly at Nedlac, come to finality.
Stable labour relations are an important component that will ensure
our functionality as an arm of state. Your argument is correct hon
Ngwenya, and the ANC agrees with you, however, use your voice as a
Member of Parliament to pressurise, hold to account and ensure the
executive does what it must do.
As a legislative we have had to find creative ways of using our
resources collectively to bring together the sector to achieve its
outcomes. A good example of such would be the programmes such as
Taking Parliament to the People, NCOP oversight weeks, which bring
together legislatures at the various sphere of government.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 75
So, if an entire arm of the state, particularly Parliament is able
to use its resources better to still achieve its outcomes,
governments departments should be able to do the same and that
should be our preoccupation.
Unfortunately, hon Essack points a picture that Parliament is
dysfunctional, the NCOP rubber-stamps the work of the National
Assembly and made other examples almost making it sound as if
Parliament is probably a hopeless pit of nonexistence. It will help
the House to note that one of the aspects that have made the Select
Committee of Finance and Appropriation work well is collaboratively
working together with its partner in the National Assembly. The
legislation allow such and where necessary to avoid duplication. Not
only does the Money Bills allow this, but it has assisted in the
efficacy of the functionality of the committees.
He serves in this committee and praises the committee time and time
again on how well it functions but today, stands on the podium and
says committees don‘t work, we rubber-stamp what the National
Assembly does, etc.
Just today, as an example, you were also in the meeting, hon Essack.
We had a detailed presentation of the Urban Settlement Development
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 76
Grant; Human Settlements does not report directly to the Select
Committee on Appropriations but we wanted to see one aspect of the
department, where and how this development grant is being used and
to our surprise, it highlighted three metros as endemically
underspending on this grant: Firstly, the City of Cape Town;
secondly, the City of Joburg in the last year, and lastly the City
of Ekurhuleni.
We had further noted that we will call these three municipalities
back the select committee to exactly get an understanding as to why
is it that this grant is been underspent and not used wisely? Is
Parliament, therefore dysfunctional? Are rubber-stamping anything
that the National Assembly is doing? I don‘t know if we were seating
in different meetings, hon Essack, but perhaps you need the minutes.
The Minister also appeared before the select committee. Again, the
Minister is not directly responsible for to come appear before the
Select Committee on Appropriations, but she expressed concern over
policy making discrepancies.
Parliament has a role to find solutions to issues raised by the
executive or citizens. Some amongst us are such good friends of the
courts, that when they don‘t agree with policy, which by the way is
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 77
the prerogative of the executive, they take members of the executive
to court, instead of using Parliament, particularly the NCOP to
raise these issues. We know the friends of the court but I am not
going to name-drop today.
Parliament does and is functioning, in fact, not one policy debate
will appear here before the House without having been scrutinised or
interrogated by the relevant select committees. Is this rubberstamping? I think not.
President Nelson Mandela once said during his last address to the
Joint Sitting of Parliament, in May 2004:
The make-up of this Parliament confirms that the people of South
Africa have spoken in all its diversity, asserting the strength of
our unity in diversity and that Parliament should serve as their
voice.
The national consultative conference of the ANC also observed that
Parliament of South Africa will be wholly transformed into an
assembly of the people. Every man and woman in our country shall
have the right to vote for and stand as a candidate for all offices
and bodies which make laws. Some amongst us sitting here today would
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 78
not have been Members OF Parliament, had it not been for this
observation made by the national consultative conference of the ANC.
It went further to say that the present administration will be
smashed and broken up. In its place will be created an
administration in which all people irrespective of race, colour, or
sex can take part. The bodies of minority rule shall be abolished
and in their place will be established democratic organs of selfgovernment in all the provinces, districts and towns of the country.
I suggest, hon Essack and to your party that if you want to see a
different type of Parliament and a different type of government, go
to an election and win democratically so that you can takeover but
that will not happen in the near future.
As the ANC, we take utmost pride that we have truly built a people‘s
Parliament that we have envisaged when the Congress of the People
convened in Kliptown, in 1954, to declare the people shall govern!
Indeed, in the last 22 years of our democracy, we have seen a
remarkable transformation of the kind of Parliament we inherited
from the apartheid regime to a Parliament that truly represents the
needs and aspirations of the people of South Africa.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 79
As the ANC, we are humbled by the progress that we have made in
building a Parliament that continues to serve as a forum for the
representation of the needs of our communities. Today, we can say
with utmost humility that Parliament is the epicentre of our
democracy. It is one of the most significant institutions of our
democracy that carries distinctive and unique attributes that are
instrumental in measuring the functioning and strength of our
democracy. As the ANC therefore, we support Budget Vote 2. Thank
you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Deputy
Chairperson, may I quickly respond to Ntate Essack. The matters you
are raising about fruitful, fruitless and wasteful expenditure are
getting attention. I have a whole file in front of me; we have not
condoned. We are in the process of going through them item by item
to recommend. Will see what needs to be condoned, we will go after
what and/or who is concerned, and deal with the matters.
You also raised that we have paid R38 million unnecessarily. There
is a matter that I think was unfortunate which should have been
dealt with regarding the researchers of Parliament - a matter which
stood and stayed unresolved for months, and probably for years at
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 80
the CCMA. That matter is being challenged by Parliament; therefore
we have not yet expended a cent of that 38 million.
To be fair, if people merit increases and advancement, they must get
it. On the other hand also, Parliament must put into place systems
which actually properly appraise the performance of its workers: So
that you do not unjustly punish those who should be upgraded; so
that you don‘t hold back people who are doing all they can; and so
that those who do not work do not benefit because they are just
relying on those who are doing their best to advance. Therefore, we
are on top of that issue.
You have also addressed the issues regarding the Secretary to
Parliament. I can assure you that we have a very thick file: We have
letters from whistle blowers; and we have many other things. We have
taken time to go through. We had to go through them, tried to see
whether there were cases to be accounted for, and we are convinced
that there are some cases that should be accounted for. We have
referred the matter to the audit committee to deal with.
We must say that Parliament – the NCOP in particular – must always
guard its territory very jealously. Ntate Wiley, you are right: The
powers of the provincial legislatures are exactly the same as the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 81
powers of the NA. They are slightly different from the powers of the
NCOP. Therefore, when we enact, or when we do a class action, or
when we actually want to act on the legislative sector of South
African, we must always respect these territories. That is what the
Speakers‘ Forum is trying to do.
Thus, whoever plays into that space does so understanding that
national Parliament cannot dictate to a provincial legislature. So,
we are very wary about that. As a former provincial Speaker, I was
very clear that the national realm was not going to interfere in my
space. I was a member of the ANC in a province which was ANC,
speaking to national Parliament or a Presiding Officer who came from
the ANC.
So, it is a matter which, in fact, is significant: If we want to be
taken seriously as the legislative sector of South Africa, as an arm
of government, we need to co-ordinate our efforts. Hence, the
Speakers‘ Forum becomes important, because it co-ordinates the
legislative sector of the country. It has to reach out through
provincial Speakers to the municipal Speakers, so that those who are
not in the executive can begin to assert the voice of the people.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 82
Now, if we do not do that; if we continue to look and fight our
battles separately as the NCOP, as the NA, as Limpopo and so forth,
we are not going to get what we need because the only reason there
was advancement in the recognition of the independence of the
judiciary is that at some point they organised themselves, put their
matter on the table and with different levels, they presented their
matter.
Today, we are very proud of the independence of the judiciary in
South Africa. We need to do that without trampling on anyone because
the truth of the matter is that we are not a wholly unitary country.
We are a unitary country with very strong features of federalism if
you analyse the powers that have been given to the provinces. So, we
cannot avoid looking at it.
So, I would say to Ntate Wiley – thanks you are back - that we
understand the matter. I think all speakers raised that matter. In
fact, I raised this matter somewhere this morning – the matter of
the powers of provinces. Therefore, we must always be careful what
we push through; how we negotiate our way. For now, forming the
legislative sector of South Africa is important for us to emerge as
a strong arm of the state.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 83
As we stand, we are not emerging as a strong arm of the state
because as a collective of the legislative sector we can‘t even go
and say this is how the budget of the legislative sector will be
determined. That is where some of us are going.
Ntate Khawula and Gaehler, raised the issue of minority whips being
paid. I want to say that in 2014 I have agreed to go into this
matter. I also want to say to the House that this matter actually
comes from a document which I have been trying to follow. I am aware
that this document - which the Secretary of the NCOP helped with
because I had to ask the status of the document - is a 2008 document
that was never adopted. Nobody owns the document.
Therefore, I had to understand why a 2008 document was never
implemented, which when I come into the NCOP, I am told I am
responsible for. Nobody owns the document; it has no standing. If it
does not have any standing, I cannot implement it. The second
interesting thing is that even if it had any standing, a Presiding
Officer has absolutely no power in determining the remuneration of
other members.
There is a body that is still led by Judge Mmusi that does those
things. So, as much as I want to sympathise, the matter belongs
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 84
there. However, I want to say that one of the things that we are
excited about is the relook at the responsibilities which I have
delegated to the House Chairs and the Deputy Chair. Amongst those
responsibilities are some responsibilities which must be reassigned
to the Chief Whip of Council.
You are right, hon members: The Chief Whip of Council is the Chief
Whip of all members equally. The Chief Whip of Council cannot look
at colour; he/she looks at all the members of this House. That
matter was made vey clear on the day the hon Khawula stood in this
House and said: I want to be serviced. That made it attend to us.
So, we want to go and assure this House that we are going to fix
that space, and that is where we are relooking at the delegations.
We want to also say that regarding the staff of Parliament, I am
hoping that the negotiations will start in earnest, and that there
will not be any retrenchments. In fact, it would be a very funny
situation in the whole of South Africa if Parliament is the only
institution that is not giving its employees increment when the
entire legislature, all state departments in province and nationally
are doing so.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 85
So, we are waiting for the negotiations to start in earnest. We are
watching the space. We are not happy with labour relations in
Parliament. You would know that last year we were personally
involved in trying to create stability. We do not want to yet, as
yet go in there, but we will not allow the workers of Parliament to
be treated badly. We have heard you also, hon members. [Applause.]
Hon Motara has answered hon Ngwenya very aptly. I also want to say
that when we came in here with Mme Mbethe, one of the areas that we
wanted to challenge - and we still want to get into - is the issue
of the restaurants which have been outsourced because from 1994 when
we were here they were not. The other one is the issue of cleaning
services which was outsourced.
In fact, if you are not aware, hon members, even as you drink with
that cup, it no longer belongs to Parliament. Therefore, those are
the areas where sometimes we say: Give us the space to do our work
so that we can go in there and begin to undo some of the things that
we do not understand. Hon members, thank you very much. For those
who do not support this debate, I understand. Those who support this
Budget Vote, thank you very much. Ke a leboha. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 86
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Policy debate)
Vote No 26 — Energy:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Deputy Chairperson, Chairperson of the NCOP,
members of the NCOP and special delegates, good afternoon.
Hon Members, it is with humility that I present today before you the
Budget Vote of the Department of Energy for the 2017-18 financial
year. Let me first acknowledge that we are tabling our budget policy
statement during the energy month under the theme: Promoting
affordable and sustainable energy mix in support of radical
socioeconomic transformation.
We are beginning the winter month and energy is one of critical
rights that the society needs to carry them through chilly weeks and
months. As temperatures drop, a need for electricity and all other
energy products are needed for household consumption. It is through
the availability, provision and security of energy to keep our
communities warm and safe.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 87
As we celebrate the year of OR Tambo, the collective responsibility
as the leaders in the society is to ensure that the values and
aspirations of Comrade OR are lived and we transform the society in
ensuring that the dream of our fallen hero is realised.
Hon members, the Department of Energy has a critical role to play in
ensuring that we secure the supply of energy and petroleum in the
country. The sector currently contributes R300 billion towards the
gross domestic product, GDP, of the country and accounts for almost
90 000 jobs.
It is our considered view that this sector has potential to
contribute more towards GDP and can be able to create more jobs. It
is against this view that in the coming few months we will embark on
re-engineering our business model to create capacity, ensure we
operate efficiently and effectively. We will seek to achieve a
highly professional department that operates in a transparent manner
and is accountable to the public.
We will be concluding our work within this financial year on
Integrated Energy Plan and Integrated Resource Plan to ensure that
there is policy certainty. These energy plans will outline how we
intend to meet our energy policy objectives, including: increasing
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 88
energy access, energy efficiency, localisation and skills
development; increase energy security; diversify our energy mix;
reduce water usage; and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
It is important for me to highlight that our budget allocation as
the department for this financial year is R8,1 billion, of which
R7,5 billion is for transfers to our entities and R244 million is
for the department to embark on its operations and its projects.
It is important for hon members to note the following break down of
our transfers in terms of our Integrated National Electrification
Programme, INEP: Eskom is allocated R3,8 billion; transfers to
municipalities for our INEP are allocated R2 billion; the INEP nogrid is allocated R189 million and Energy Efficiency Demand Side
Management, EEDSM, municipalities are allocated R203,2 million.
The department, through municipalities and Eskom, has made
remarkable progress in increasing access to electricity in South
Africa and has electrified close to 7 million households between
1994 and 2017. One of the key programmes the department runs is the
Integrated National Electrification Programme in regional offices
whose sole purpose is to oversee and monitor the implementation of
electrification projects at regional level in line with a broader
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 89
vision of eradicating electrification backlog in the country and to
reach universal access by 2025.
Our implementation of this program has produced varied results in
different provinces. This achievement is not by accident but through
deliberate allocation of resources by the government. Over 80% of
the budget presented here today is going towards the electrification
of households.
The 2017-18 budget allocation of R6,1 billion is an indication of
this government‘s commitment to continue to improve the lives of our
people. The 2017-18 allocations for municipalities include
allocations to needy municipalities such as Malamulele in Limpopo,
Sundays River in the Eastern Cape, Nquthu in KwaZulu-Natal,
Thembisile Hani in Mpumalanga, Westonaria in Gauteng, Bojanala
District in North West, Gariep District in Free State, John Taolo
Gaetsewe District in Northern Cape and Central Karoo in Western Cape
The 2017-18 budget allocation per province direct to municipalities
and through Eskom is as follows: Eastern Cape province is allocated
R472 million direct to municipalities and R896 million through
Eskom; Free State is allocated R101 million direct to municipalities
and R49 million through Eskom; Gauteng is allocated R150 million
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 90
direct to municipalities and R67 million through Eskom; KwaZuluNatal is allocated R540 million direct to municipalities and
R1095 million through Eskom, Limpopo is allocated R298 million
direct to municipalities and R800 million through Eskom; Mpumalanga
is allocated R200 million direct to municipalities and R400 million
through Eskom; Northern Cape is allocated R124 million direct to
municipalities and R138 million through Eskom; North West is
allocated R103 million direct to municipalities and R305 million
through Eskom; and Western Cape is allocated R99 million direct to
municipalities and R94 million through Eskom.
I am indicating this so that members can assist us in monitoring the
expenditure and also making sure that these projects become a
success. This budget will go towards ensuring that over 225 000
additional households have access to electricity which will improve
the lives of our people.
While progress has been made, there are challenges in certain areas
in which we aim to improve within this financial year. Part of the
challenges is that this portfolio does not have a Minmec to assist
on co-ordination. We are looking at various areas of co-ordination
to ensure expenditure.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 91
Increasing costs per connection in KwaZulu-Natal, North West,
Eastern Cape and Mpumalanga provinces due to backlog areas being
rural with large distance between households, continue to stretch
the limited budget and affect our universal access targets.
KwaZulu-Natal remains one of the provinces with more prioritised
districts as part of the 27 government priority district programme.
A growing number of electricity backlogs in informal settlements in
Gauteng and the Western Cape pose a challenge that must be addressed
urgently through collaboration with other departments such as human
settlements, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta,
South African Local Government Association, Salga, and all other
municipalities within those provinces.
The department, working with local government, will have to be
innovative and find immediate solutions such as the deployment of
off-grid solar home systems which are mobile, inexpensive and quick
to install. Maintenance and refurbishment of electricity
infrastructure will need to be prioritised at a local level.
With the government supporting the poor through free basic
electricity, communities are encouraged to pay for the services and
look after the infrastructure. Those who vandalise electricity
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 92
infrastructure must be reported to law enforcement agencies as the
disruption of services due to vandalism affect the elderly, women
and children.
Access to energy has over the last few years been expanded to look
beyond electricity. The department‘s collaboration with oil
companies in establishing integrated energy centres in poverty nodal
areas is a great example of how collaboration between the private
sector and local communities can be fostered. These energy centres
can be found in rural communities like Makwane in the Free State,
Qunu in Eastern Cape and Ngwabe in Limpopo.
Our nine regional offices facilitate the development of small
businesses in the petroleum and liquid fuels industry. This is done
provision of advisory services to business and potential businesses
in provinces and associated licensing processes in the
implementation of the Petroleum Products Amendment Act of 2003. This
is mainly for the acceptance of manufacturing, wholesale, site and
retail licenses. License applications are lodged and captured in
these offices and thereafter processed through head office.
The department makes the process of applying for petroleum licences
easier and more accessible by sharing information and educating
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 93
applicants and potential applicants on the licensing process through
regional awareness campaigns and stakeholder engagements.
The benefits of this approach are seen in the large number of
applications received and facilitated by these offices.
Furthermore, the department has regular interactions with the
majority of oil companies, which makes it quicker and easier to
resolve licence application challenges. Our regional offices host
petroleum licensing workshops where the general public is invited.
These workshops are meant to inform stakeholders on licensing
processes that govern the petroleum industry as well as compliance
issues. Importantly, these workshops are envisaged to open doors to
those who would like to participate in the space of manufacturing,
wholesaling and retailing of petroleum products while emphasising
compliance to those who are already licence holders.
Hon members, it is a commitment we made as the department to make
strategic impact through sufficient service delivery in our energy
sector. We are committed as a department to ensure that we create
efficiency in doing our work in ensuring that we provide quality
service and access to energy.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 94
Let me take this opportunity to thank the department staff that has
been a pillar of strength for my arrival in the department but more
importantly the office that I work with in terms of ministry staff
who have dedicated themselves and selflessly serve this country.
We take note of the provincial capacity challenges and we hope that
we will be able to correct them where we are weak. As the
department, we have committed ourselves, as team energy, to serving
South Africans with dedication, commitment and hard work.
Hon members, I hereby table Budget Vote 26 to the House for
consideration and adoption. Thank you.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Deputy Chair of the NCOP, Minister of Energy
and Deputy Minister, congratulations once more on your appointment,
Director-General of the Department of Energy, hon
members,
distinguished guests and fellow South Africans, the year 2017 is
dedicated to the legendary struggle icon and internationalist, and
longest served president of the ANC, Oliver Reginald Tambo. In our
quest for nation building and the creation of a nonracial,
nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society we are inspired by the
ideals the late O R Tambo stood for.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 95
We are debating the budget vote a day before the conclusion of
Energy Month under the theme: Promoting affordable and sustainable
energy mix in support of radical socioeconomic transformation. This
is informed by the commitments made by the ANC in transforming the
lives of our people for the better through the energy sector.
The ANC policy orientation to the energy sector was determined on
the eve of our being voted into power and is contained in the 1992
policy document titled Ready to Govern, and I quote:
To improve the quality of life of our people, stimulate the
economy and reduce pollution levels, the ANC will launch a
national electrification programme. We will investigate the
appropriate regulatory framework, structure and operation of major
energy parastatals such as Eskom, the Atomic Energy Corporation,
Sasol and Mossgas, with a view to re-orientating them towards
national economic and development goals that are protective of the
environment.
Since then progress has been made by the ANC-led government in
improving the living conditions of our people through the Department
of Energy which is tasked to ensure the secure and sustainable
provision of energy for socioeconomic development. This has been
achieved through the development of an integrated energy plan,
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 96
regulating the energy industries and promoting investment in
accordance with the integrated resource plan. The plan ensures that
there is an efficient and diverse energy mix for universal access
within a transformed energy sector, and implements policies that
adapt to and mitigate the effects of climate change.
Consistent with these commitments, the ANC‘s 52nd national
conference in 2007, reaffirmed our stance for an energy mix that
includes clean and renewable energy to meet the demands of our
economy without compromising our commitment to sustainable
development. The conference resolved to escalate our national
efforts towards the realisation of a greater contribution to
renewable energy sources, including solar and wind power as part of
meeting a renewable energy target. We note the restructuring and
location of renewable energy going forward as part of the process to
change the character of the economy. The hydroelectric potential of
the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region should be
further harnessed with all its potential and its dual function of
providing energy that is at the same time carbon free.
Today gathering here, we are proud to say that the Department of
Energy has made significant achievements in executing its
constitutional mandate. Through municipalities and Eskom as
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 97
implementing agencies, the Department of Energy has made remarkable
progress in increasing access to electricity in South Africa. We
have connected close to 7 million households between 1994 and March
2017, and as of March 2017, access to electricity stands at 90%. The
department has managed to connect 301 976 households to the grid
against the target of 235 000, which represents an overachievement
by 66 000 households in relation to the target.
Despite the challenges we experience in our transformation journey
in the energy sector, we are assuring South Africans that we will
continue with our tireless efforts to ensure that their needs and
demands are met. We have eliminated load shedding since 2015, and
there has been stabilisation of the electricity grid. Continued
stabilisation together with the addition of new capacity will have
positive effects on our economic growth and creation of new jobs.
In the current financial year 2017-18 the department will connect
235 O00 households to the grid and 15 000 through offgrid
technology. Since the inception of the offgrid programme under the
integrated national electrification programme, the department has
achieved about 150 O00 installations of solar home systems, mainly
in the Eastern Cape, Kwazulu-Natal, Northern Cape and Limpopo.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 98
The offgrid programme is now also being considered for
implementation in urban areas of the country with a view to
improving the provision of basic services in informal settlements.
In his 2015 state of the nation address, the President announced the
nine-point plan to boost economic growth and create much-needed
jobs. A key component of this nine-point plan is the focus on energy
our National Developmental Plan which envisages that by 2030 South
Africa will have an energy sector that promotes economic growth and
development through adequate investment in energy infrastructure.
Further recommendations in the National Development Plan, NDP,
include diversifying power sources and ownership in the electricity
sector, supporting cleaner coal technologies, and investing in human
and physical capital in the 12 largest electricity distributors.
The NDP requires the development of 10 O00 MWs of additional
electricity capacity to be established by 2025 against the 2013
baseline of 44 000 MWs. Prioritising the attainment of these longterm goals of the NDP, we have stated in our ANC manifesto that key
issues envisioned for the 2014 to 2019 period include: producing
more, cleaner energy and promote energy self-sufficiency; both
fossil-based and green energy will be expanded to ensure a platform
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 99
for growth and social inclusion, including the use of nuclear power
for energy generation in a safe and environmentally sustainable
manner; additional energy will be generated through the completion
of the large power stations, namely Medupi and Kusile; and solar and
wind power will feed into the electricity grid to increase our
generation capacity and promote environmental sustainability.
We will continue with our obligatory task to promote the optimal use
of South Africa's renewable energy resources to ensure that our
sustainable energy agenda is adhered to. This includes expanding the
independent power producer procurement programme to fulfil
government‗s commitment to sustainable development as well as
socioeconomic transformation in terms of the character of the
economy. Through the independent power producer programme, renewable
energy, coal, gas and cogeneration against the target of 17 000
megawatt by the end of 2022 has progressed significantly. Since the
inception of the renewable energy independent power producer, IPP,
programme the department has been successful in increasing the
contribution of clean energy from 0% in 2010 to over 4,5% within
five years and the creation of 24 965 job opportunities for South
African citizens.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 100
The programme has also broadened black economic empowerment, as
black South Africans own, on average, 30% of these projects. This
posture adopted by our government will not only contribute
positively to meeting the global greenhouse emission targets to
avoid consequences of climate change, but will also enable us to
eradicate inequality and poverty as well as creating jobs for our
people particularly youth, women and people living with disability.
By women I refer to the masses of the downtrodden women of
SouthAfrica who carried wood or fetch woods and cow dung from the
veld to fend for their own children when their husbands were far
away working in the mine houses and earning meagre salaries
In March 2016, government unveiled the Solar Capital De Aar 3 Solar
Photovoltaic PV plant worth R25 billion in De Aar in the Northern
Cape. The Solar Capital De Aar Photovoltaic facility that will
provide power to 49 500 South African homes every year, and with the
introduction of lithium batteries, it was expected to transfer power
at night when most needed. Government has also committed itself, by
means of its nuclear energy policy and the integrated resource plan
to an energy mix, which includes nuclear. Following the court
judgement, we will patiently wait for the department to start up
with the new process of signing an intergovernmental agreements that
will be submitted to Parliament.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 101
The nuclear new build programme will enable the country to create
jobs, develop skills, create industries and develop further the
knowledge economy. Most importantly nuclear technology remains
important to our country as the production of medical radiosotopes
helps in diagnosis of cancer, assists in preservation of food
through nuclear treatment radiation and curing of deadly disease
such as malaria catalysing our clarion call for radical economic
transformation.
The realisation of radical socioeconomic transformation is not a new
concept. It was in fact adopted as far back as 2012 at the time of
the 53rd national conference of the ANC and has been part and parcel
of policy conferences on economic transformation which has preceded
the 53rd national conference – the ANC, the governing party.
We will prioritise empowering our people through skills development
in the field of energy thus adhering to commitments we made in our
2014 elections manifesto. These include co-ordinating government
efforts to significantly increase internships and placements in the
public and private sectors and the advance reforms in skills
development to ensure employers and labour - in partnership with
learning institutions - carry out more technical and artisanal
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 102
training. We will continue to do our best to ensure that our
people's interests come first and advance the gains we made since
the democratic breakthrough. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. I
thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Minister, fellow members and
South Africans, we are here today to debate the budget vote for the
Department of Energy. As Members of Parliament — elected
representatives — we need to fulfil an oversight role by debating
the successes, challenges and possible solutions for the department
in order to improve the living conditions of South Africans who we
serve. We need to start of by saying that since 1994 a lot of
improvement has been made and a lot has improved for a lot of South
Africans but we also need to say that where we are today we could
have been a lot further along the road. Unfortunately as is often
the case, it appears that my colleagues from the ANC spend little
time in fully exercising their role of holding this Minister and the
predecessor to account as well as this department, to ensure that
transparency as is required of us by our constituents and the
Constitution.
Scandal is not just a soapy on TV. It is an ongoing horror show in
the Department of Energy with not a day going by where it seems that
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 103
another episode involving either PetroSA or Eskom, or the Strategic
Fuel or the Central Energy Funds or the ongoing and unfolding layers
surrounding the nuclear deal ceases to shock us. The problem with
these ongoing shocks is that we almost become immune to it; the
shock effect wears off and we simply accept it as just another
occurrence.
Hon members, this is where we all should step up. We need to hold
the Executive to account as a collective and not allow the current
crop of leaders who care more about protecting JZ and the circle of
friends loyal to Saxonworld the freedom to do as they please. The
biggest challenge facing South Africa is the enormous unemployment
and to address this every single department needs to do their bit to
help create the economic climate for growth that will help address
the current crisis.
The Department of Energy plays a critical role here in ensuring that
we are an energy secure country that will boost investor confidence,
in order to boost investor confidence. in order to facilitate this
the much delayed Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, and the Integrated
Energy Plan, IEP, must be delivered and made sure that we adhere to
it going forward, it must be
worth the ink and paper it is printed
on. Hon members, unfortunately, the wearing off of the shock factor
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 104
are best illustrated when some of the issues are listed one after
the other. regarding the nuclear deal, time and again this
government has punted the advantages of the nuclear deal to the
South African economy and the people. Yet time and again the
arguments are proven to be false or versions of the truth. These
versions of the truth are there to fit a narrative that supports the
nuclear deal.
The court has ruled that the process undertaken by the Department of
Energy was illegal and set it aside. This would have been the ideal
opportunity to use the get-out-of-jail card and pursue the least
cost scenarios involving amongst others the embracing of renewables
for long term benefits. The former Minister, however, decided to
appeal the ruling — the main reason probably being that renewables
do not allow the same quick kickbacks that this Executive has become
known for.
The handling of our public funds by PetroSA has been an absolute
disgrace with the biggest single loss of more than R16 billion. I
cannot understand how this department allows PetroSA to get to where
it is and not hold them accountable by making sure that there is
strategic direction by the board and the directors ...
[Interjections]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 105
Mr E MAKUE: Chair, I would like to know whether the hon member would
want to answer to the question where he was when we discussed these
things in the select committee.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Are you
prepared to take a question, hon member?
Mr J J LONDT: Is that the question as well?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: I am
asking you, I am ascertaining whether you are prepared to take a
question?
Mr J J LONDT: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: You can
ask your question.
Mr E MAKUE: Can the hon member please help us to say where he was
when we were discussing these matters in the select committee last
week Wednesday.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 106
Mr J J LONDT: Thank you, Chairperson Makue, it is always great how
you engage in a debate. So, let me answer, firstly I can read which
many of your committee members do not do when reports gets presented
to them. So, I have read through all the reports. I have also
interacted with my colleagues and ... [Interjections.]
Ms M C DIKGALE: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Yes,
what is your point of order?
Ms M C DIKGALE: The hon member is accusing the hon members of the
committee that they are not reading and I am part of that committee.
Why is he accusing us?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
member, eish! Are you accusing members of the committee not to be
reading?
Mr J J LONDT: Chair, I will withdraw that but what I will say is
that the hon member that just stood up loves playing Candy Crush in
the committee and that I am accusing the member of. [Laughter.] So,
either you are playing Candy Crush or you are reading the reports
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 107
but I can honestly say to the entire South Africa that this hon
member is playing Candy Crush in the committee instead of reading
the reports.
Getting back to where we are, you asked where I was last week. Hon
Makue, let me tell you where I was last week. There is a Beaufort
West bi-election where the ANC government neglected the people for
22 years. For 22 years they got shocking services from the ANC
government and now you come here and brag on what progress you made
for South Africans. tell that to the people of Beaufort West because
you only did so much, but millions of rands were stolen out of that
municipality that went to the connected few in the ANC instead of
going to the people that needed the money. So, yes, hon Makue, I was
there trying to fix the mess that your party created in that
municipality and I am proud to say that we beat the ANC hands-down
and now we are going to govern that municipality and fix everything
that you have broken there. [Applause.]
Chair, my time is running out so I will skip one or two paragraphs
and that I will ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Can I
take the point of order from the hon Mthimunye.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 108
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Chair, one unscrupulous member shouts, thievesthieves. Is that parliamentary?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
member I didn‘t hear that now but ... [Interjections.] ... I haven‘t
even made a ruling. Is it true that you referred to the member as a
thief?
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hattingh, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon
member, please take your seat. Hon Hattingh, based on an earlier
ruling that I made around the usage of that word, is it true that
you referred to members as thieves?
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I didn‘t refer to any member as a thief
but your ruling was that thieves may be used in heckling. I was
heckling.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: No. Hon
member, sitting in this House, did you refer to other members as
thieves?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 109
Mr C HATTINGH: No, hon Chair, I referred to the people who stole in
Beaufort West as thieves and not any member here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Okay,
fine. Can I rule on this matter in the following way because and
apologise to hon Koni upfront because I thought you used the word.
No, hon member, it was then brought to my attention that no, no, no,
it is not hon Koni but hon Hattingh. I didn‘t hear that, can I be
allowed to go to Hansard and check really how the word was used in
this instance. Thank you very much, proceed.
Mr J J LONDT: Deputy Chairperson, members in this House from the ANC
spend more time and more energy in defending the indefensible than
they do in exercising their oversight role and it shows in the
quality of services these departments deliver to the poor
communities and the effects that it has on our economy. Chairperson,
the ANC took voters for granted in the run-up to the local
government elections and they lost the metros. This should have been
a wakeup call yet you refuse to listen. There is little over two
years left for this national government to try and leave a positive
legacy and attempt to turn our multiple crises around. And yes, we
want you to succeed because by not succeeding you are costing South
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 110
Africans. But let me tell you what else, my prediction is that this
ANC government will not make it happen. Members here as well as
those in the senior positions know it in their hearts that the ANC
will lose the country in 2019. So instead of putting the effort in
to fix things you steal as much as you can, making good use of the
time left to you.
Just remember that when the ANC lose power in 2019 — JZ will not
take all of you to Dubai. You will be left behind to be held
accountable for your actions and more importantly your inactions. So
do the right thing now. Step up and stop defending the indefensible.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M C DIKGALE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Energy, hon Deputy
Minister of Energy, hon members, special delegates, ladies and
gentlemen. Hon Minister, through you Chairperson, let me take this
opportunity to also congratulate you on your recent appointment as
the Minister of Energy. I hope and trust that our relationship, that
is the relationship between your Ministry and the NCOP, will be a
very cordial one. Indeed, this debate takes place at the end of May
which is the Energy Month for us in South Africa. The month of May
also means the start of winter in South Africa. This inherently
means higher usage of energy particularly electricity, especially in
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 111
the homes and households as people would want to keep themselves
warm.
The winter season is a season that warrants us to have more energy
reserves. In the Economics language this means that there will be
more demand for energy. So, the flipside of this is whether the
supply thereof will be enough to meet the demand. The nation will as
such be looking to the government to provide leadership in energy
management and sustainability. However, our government the ANC-led
government is ready. In November last year, it released the long
awaited update to the Integrated Resource Plan and the Integrated
Resource Energy Plan which will guide us in the energy sector. The
plan will drive policy decisions on the mix of renewables; nuclear,
coal and gas fired power generation to be added to the grid until
2050. One can only applaud the government in this respect.
This is so because these plans, the Integrated Resource Plan in
particular, address the fundamental shift in South Africa‘s
electricity demand, the implications of technological innovation in
decreasing the cost of renewables and the addition of new generating
capacity thus has quickly turned the country‘s electricity deficit
to surplus. However, one important question regarding this plan is,
can the country afford the energy plan? This is where this Budget
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 112
comes in. According to the reports there is a strong criticism of
the plans from public comments, particularly of the Integrated
Resource Plan base case which in its assumptions places constraints
on the amount of renewable energy that should be introduced yearly
on the basis of possible negative consequences for grid stability.
One of the arguments from the criticism is that the base case is
outdated as the cost of renewable technologies has dropped faster
than expected and several researches have shown that by applying
lower renewable tariffs and removing annual construction limits
renewables, can make up a much greater proportion of the energy mix.
This Minister, through you hon Chairperson, should be a concern for
us because there is no doubt that renewable energy is a way to go
for South Africa. This is so because there is no doubt that as the
global population continues to rise so is the demand for cheap
energy. For us in South Africa, cheap energy - thus renewable energy
- is imperative because of our drier economic growth rate.
I can only hope and trust that the department will have a relook of
the base case so that this concern can be addressed.
Hon Chairperson, I come from the predominantly rural province of
Limpopo and I have seen how renewable energy from the three solar
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 113
power farms in the province are helping the communities around those
farms. I am therefore, in support of renewable energy because I
believe it has the potential to increase access to electricity in
our rural areas due to its sustainability for off-grid and small
scale solutions. Solar power as a form of renewable energy will no
doubt assist us to achieve the carbon emissions target that we have
assigned to ourselves in terms of the sustainable development goals.
This is more so during the winter periods wherein the use of
traditional fossil fuel energy increases as our people have to warm
themselves.
Hon Chairperson, in Limpopo we are sometimes tormented for not
having any many ‗yellow bones‘ because of the hot temperatures from
the abundant sunlight that we have. It is true. Instead of these
people suffering from the sunburn ... [Interjections.] it is because
of the sunburn hon Mampuru, through you Chair. Instead of these
people suffering from the sunburn, we should make them benefit from
this sun. I am therefore, appealing to the department to make use of
this sun and increase the solar farms that we have in the province.
In addition to the sunlight we have a sizeable land for more solar
power farms.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 114
According to the 2017-18 budget under discussion, renewable energy
allocation will increase at an annual average of 7,7% over the
medium-term expenditure framework period until 2019/2020. This has
to be applauded and it bodes well with Capital Renewal Global Status
Report of March 2017, which puts South Africa top in terms of
renewable energy investment on the continent. I have read recently
that Eskom is, through the Eskom Research, Testing and Development
unit, building a micro-grid technology demonstration plant in an
unelectrified rural village near Ficksburg, in the Free State. This
project is a demonstration of next horizon technology that supports
Eskom‘s future strategic objectives as well as solving the energy
challenges that we face as a country.
The project is being rolled out in collaboration with the Department
of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, the community of Wilhelmina
Farm and Eskom RT&D‘s, Research, Testing and Development Smart Grid
Centre of Excellence. This is the kind of interventions that we must
expand and roll out in other rural villages in other provinces. I
therefore, hope that the Department of Energy will join Eskom and
the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries to ensure that
this happens. Minister, you can be assured that as the ANC we will
also support funding for such programmes as they will be in line
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 115
with our objective of making the lives of our people, especially the
rural poor, better.
According to the International Renewable Energy Agency Annual Review
of 2016, while the growth in jobs slowed down compared to previous
years, the total number of jobs in renewables worldwide continued to
rise in stark contrast with depressed labour markets in the broader
energy sector. The review states further that countries with the
highest number of renewable energy jobs were China, Brazil, the
United States, India, Japan and Germany. This is noteworthy because
China, Brazil and India are our partners in Brics, Brazil, Russia,
India, China and South Africa, whereas the US, United States and
Japan are economic powers in their regions and the world generally.
There is as such no doubt that with renewable energy the country has
an opportunity to modernise its grid and greatly increase its energy
efficiency so that future decisions on base load can be made against
a baseline of sustainability not of waste and inefficiency.
Hon Chairperson, solar energy apart from being integral part of
Sustainable Development Goal 7, which deals with affordable and
clean energy, has a unique intersection with Sustainable Development
Goal 5, which addresses the empowerment of women and girls. This is
so because of its potential to spur economic independence and
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 116
decision-making power. Globally, women are beginning to realise that
solar energy is an industry that is growing in leaps and bounds and
are therefore taking advantage of this growth. According to the
Solar Foundation, as of 2015, women made up 24% of the solar
workforce but this is expected to rise to 40% by 2030. So, the
question is, are our South African women involved in this great
opportunity?
This is where the Department of Energy must lend the helping hand to
our women. This is because even where an opportunity for a new
business may exist women often face a lack of access to sufficient
starting capital. All women empowerment and funding agencies must
therefore, join hands with the Department to ensure that our women
do not miss out on this great opportunity. As the saying goes; ―you
invest in a woman, you invest in the future". As the ANC we support
this Budget Vote because we believe that it will make all these
issues I have raised happen. In closing hon Chairperson, I want to
say to hon Londt, he knows very well the story of Candy Crush and I
believe he does not want me to talk about what I have seen on the
phones of the hon members of the DA in a meeting, hon Faber. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
Setswana:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 117
Mme N P KONI: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo. Ere ke tseye tšhono e ke
dumedise Aforika Borwa ka bophara segolo thata jang balwantwa. Ke
bue gape kere ...
English:
... if it wasn‘t for the EFFs‘ motion with regards to the Chief
Whip of the House ...
Setswana:
... ga ke itse gore gompieno re ka be rele kae.
English:
But nonetheless, let me congratulate hon Mohai. We welcome the
Western Cape High Court ruling on the nuclear build programme. The
nuclear build programme was unconstitutional, it lacked transparency
and the Western Cape High Court had no choice but to declare all
these shenanigans invalid. We have warned the ANC so many times in
the committee that what they are doing is illegal and
unconstitutional. But because Mr Zuma and the Guptas had already
accepted bribe from Russia, he didn‘t care about the rule of law or
the Constitution.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 118
We also welcome the competition commission ruling on the Liquefied
Petroleum Gas, LPG market inquiry. We cannot continue to have four
large wholesalers accounting for 90% of the market share and only
five refineries. The industry is still controlled by white monopoly
capital. The same people who were controlling the industry under
apartheid still do today. We must see decisive steps to remove high
barriers that prevent new entrance and small existing firms from
entering wholesale markets. Hon Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Koni can you just take your
seat? Let me recognise the Chief Whip.
Mr S J MOHAI: Hon Chairperson, I heard the hon member making a very
strong allegation against the sitting President of the country
regarding the matter that he raised and I would like you to rule
regarding the allegation that she made.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I hoped in actual fact that
members picked it up. I heard here. The issue of the bribes that
some members of the ANC including the President received bribes –
that‘s a very serious allegation. That‘s a matter that should have
served before the courts and the courts should have expressed
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 119
themselves on that. So hon Koni may you withdraw the statement that
the President took bribe from ... [Interjections.]
Ms N P KONI: I withdraw the truthful statement for now. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So you withdraw?
Ms N P KONI: Not wholeheartedly but I do withdraw because you say I
should together with the new Chief Whip, thank you. Hon Chairperson,
what we must do with the Department of Energy is to overhaul the
entire department particularly at leadership level because it is
managed by liars and dishonest people. This department is very
important because it is at the centre of the country‘s economy and
without efficient department, the country and the economy will
collapse.
The former Minister lied under oath in Parliament when she said that
the strategic fuel reserves were in rotation when she knew very well
that they were sold. During a question and answer session, I gave
her facts but she rubbished the EFF and acted all arrogant when she
knew she was lying. When the Minister spoke in Parliament, she spoke
as a leader of the department standing for both the Deputy Minister
and the Director General, and none of them corrected the lies the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 120
Minister was telling. The new Minister just confirmed that her
predecessor lied to Parliament about the strategic fuel reserves.
But because the new Minister is also dishonest and self serving
person she feels comfortable to work with the Deputy Minister and
the Director General who both were part of lies by the previous
Minister.
Instead of the Minister complaining and asking for budget increase;
she should be calling Parliament Board inquiry into PetroSA
dealings. And she must further call for an inquiry into the
appointment of Central Energy Fund Chairman who does not have
industry or governance experience appointed to lead such a strategic
institution. PetroSA crisis is worsening, with losses expected to
increase to R2,2 billion for 2016-17 financial year. Executives paid
themselves big bonuses while the entity was on the verge of
collapse, broke without money and retrenched more than 200 people.
The solar water heater project has been hindered by lack of
transparency, corruption, under expenditure and poor workmanship.
The 400 units that the department continue to pay today are
dysfunctional and must be considered as fruitless and wasteful
expenditure. Therefore the EFF being the progressive movement in
South Africa rejects the Budget Vote. Thank you.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 121
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, electricity is a fundamental factor in
a wide range of socio-economic matters; it is the lifeblood of any
economically and socially active community.
Reliable electricity has the potential to improve the quality of
life for the poor, in particular in rural areas.
It is important to make it a priority to promote and incorporate all
viable options for electricity generation and must aim to ensure
that every household has access to reliable electricity.
The UDM calls on the government that in rolling out the solar and
wind energy, we should give priority to rural communities and this
programme.
So far, what we have noticed that electrification in most instances
does not reach to the deep rural areas particularly in the Eastern
Cape.
An example is wards 18 and 28 in the Mbhashe Municipality, in the
Eastern Cape. Even after the citizens took it to the streets burning
cars – which we do not condone - an intervention was promised by the
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 122
government; to date, after two years, no electricity or solar
systems have been given to them.
We must agree, across the political spectrum that rural poverty
constitutes a national crisis and a grave injustice. While there may
be no silver bullet for the desperate conditions facing millions of
the rural poor, but the growing need for affordable energy has a
potential to contribute to the rural socio-economic development.
The wind energy provides a cheap reliable and mature source of
energy and economic development and is an integral part of South
Africa‘s energy mix. It will also help address the national tragedy
of rural economic poverty.
Lastly, whilst it may not directly fall under your portfolio, hon
Minister, it is UDM‘s firm position that the leadership problems at
Eskom needs to fixed.
Political interference needs to stop and stop now. We need a
functional Eskom so that the country‘s electricity challenges can be
addressed without compromise.
The UDM supports the policy debate on budget.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 123
IsiXhosa:
Okokugqibela, mhlekazi, ndilibele Tata uKhawula ukukuncoma ngento
oyenzileyo yokuba niphumelele iNquthu.
English:
It shows us where you are going to in 2019. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
That the combined opposition in 2019 is going to take over the
country ...
Isixhosa:
... njengokuba belibele kukulwa nonombolo 1 ebaxelela ukuba bangabe
baphinde bapasise ivoti yokungamthembi. Njengozwilakhe uthe,
―mamelani, ningabe niphinde nipasise ivoti yokungandithembi okanye
ndiza kunigxotha.‖
Ngunyaka wama-2019 urhulumente siyamthatha
singamaqela aphikisayo kwaye siza kudibana naba bazakubethwa kulo
nyaka. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon deputy Chairperson, hon Minister. The Department
of Energy reports that it is mandated to ensure that diverse energy
resources are available in sustainable quantities and affordable
prices to the South African economy in support of economic growth
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 124
and poverty alleviation; while taking into account environmental
management requirements and interactions amongst economic sectors.
Diverse energy resources require that the department must be
innovative and move with the flow of developments around the world.
However, it is very important that the department juxtaposes this
diversity with the need to taking into account environmental
management. Whilst energy provision must contribute to economic
growth of the country, the balance to protect the environment is
also of utmost importance.
Issues have been raised about the necessity for the country to
provide nuclear power. But a lot of questions in respect of the
provision of nuclear power remain hanging. After the 2011 Fukushima
nuclear disaster in Japan, the safety of citizens in respect of
nuclear power remains a big question.
The estimated cost of South Africa‘s nuclear deal with Russia is
estimated at no less than R1 trillion. The mandate of the department
talks about diverse energy resources in sustainable quantities and
at affordable prices. The current annual total budget of the country
stands at just above R1,2 trillion. If just one project of one
section of just one department in the country, will cost close to
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 125
the equivalent of the country‘s annual total budget, one needs to
ask as to whether the mandate of the department does not stand
compromised.
Of course, the Western Cape High Court has put brakes on this
project, ruling the government plans as unlawful and
unconstitutional. This ruling was on the bases of infringements in
the public participation process. One accepts that indeed, the
country does need to transform and shift from coal to more
sustainable energy sources. The issue is that this shift has been
too clouded. There are hidden agendas that render the shift a
suspect. The agendas pertain to suspicions that some powers that be
are inclined in making personal gains around this project at the
expense of South Africa.
Hon Minister, some of your predecessors in the cabinet, responsible
for some line function departments which would have been involved in
this matter chose to stand with South Africa. It is up to you to
choose whether you will decide to stand with the self-centred few
and go ahead with an irresponsible, senseless deal at the expense of
millions of your country‘s citizens; at the expense of the treasures
of your country; at the expense of your personal integrity; or you
will choose to be patriotic and stand with South Africa. I
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 126
personally plead with you, hon Minister, to stand with South Africa.
The IFP implores you to stand with South Africa.
One cannot ignore the fact that energy drives the social and
economic programmes of the country. Therefore, the importance of
energy cannot be underestimated. One of the major crimes of the
apartheid policies was denying millions of the majority citizens of
our South Africa access to energy and therefore denial of access to
decent life. We can therefore not look down upon the country‘s
programmes to accelerate energy provision to the millions of South
Africans who were previously denied this benefit. But these
initiatives should not come at the expense of handing over the
county‘s resources, image and dignity to egocentric forces which
want to benefit for themselves whilst compromising the country.
Hon Minister, you have started on the correct footing in your new
portfolio. When you announced that the odd, somewhat irregular oil
deal sanctioned before you came would be investigated, that was
encouraging. You have also promised legal action in case it is found
to have violated regulations, this is appreciated. Resources of the
country should not just go to waste without adequate action taken
against the suspects and culprits. I thank you Chair.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 127
Mr M WILEY (Western Cape): Chairperson, I would like to add my
congratulations to the Minister in her new portfolio and wish her
well.
Minister Kubayi apparently last week admitted that we can expect
power cuts and shortages within the next 12 to 18 months. She must
be congratulated on this very brave admission and she must not
underestimate the critical role she is tasked with at this stage in
our history. But, she must take comfort in this House because we
have strong women in this House. The hon Dikgale before me made a
very sensible speech and showed that she has wisdom with regard to
renewables especially. And, hon Modise is a woman of formidable
strength and well known to all of us. Hon Dikgale must just be weary
of Bricks, however. The Chinese don‘t allow you to build facilities
without their labour - they bring their own labour; and the
Russians, when they make an advance loan to you, they expect
payback.
History will judge us and judge the Minister especially on how she
takes a stand on what is in the best interest of this country‘s
future or whether she sided with corruption, maladministration or
simply bad judgement. But, let her not be dissuaded by the fact that
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 128
she has an uphill battle as she forms part of exclusive troika of
Ministers who will jointly decide and advise on what course to take.
Already the other two have taken some serious suspect decisions and
ignored sage advice by experts and professionals. Additionally, they
seem to have other distractions. One, whom I call the ―Gucci
Minister‖, flipped from one position to the next in his robust
pronouncements, but in reality his mind is made up, maybe by others,
if one believes the papers; the other is fast getting a reputation
as ―The Cleaner‖. Whenever she gets to oversee a crisis situation,
essential documents start getting shredded. Is this a coincidence?
The Minster‘s stance is in stark contrast to what the now-suspended
Director-General Koko recently boasted was South Africa‘s 6 000
megawatt surplus - that we had megawatts to spare. We now know that
we only have 2 000 megawatt, but not before someone concluded an
agreement earlier this year to sell surplus power to other
neighbours.
The end of life of the coal power station fleet is fast approaching
and this is going to accelerate our crisis. So, what is to be done?
Provinces do not have an energy mandate, but they can facilitate
public-private partnerships and this has been done with great
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 129
success in the Western Cape and other provinces. Metros, especially
where major consumers lie, have a significant role to play, but are
prevented from doing deals without the national Minister‘s approval.
She has to also consult with the energy regulator who has to sign
off these agreements.
Now, the regulator has to date been an independent-minded animal and
has stood by the consumer when Eskom tried artificially to boost
prices some years ago and insisted on a more equitable tariff hike.
The answer lies in renewables - solar, wind and biogas, amongst
others. The renewables implementation process requires that bids are
submitted. The process of bids is professional in South Africa and
so far has been without scandal and has dramatically altered the
debate in just three years. Bid windows 1 to 3 went without a hitch,
but now, because the national government and the very tainted Eskom
fears grid defection - and it is possible that some metros or
municipalities might go bust because they are dependant upon the
income - and because of the pro–nuclear fossil fuel corruption
agenda, the process of these bids is now in limbo.
Eskom sales are declining due to a poor economy and gross
inefficiencies. Lack of confidence by investors in government is
affecting investment and this will see city power quite possibly in
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 130
Johannesburg failing in its power provision shortly. Bid windows 4
and 4,5 in the renewables area has been stalled and the contracts
have not been signed off. Minister Brown previously said that she
agreed with the Independent Power Producers, IPPs, and would sign
off, but in recent weeks, has taken a different stance – pro-nuclear
and fossil fuel.
The Integrated Resource Plan, which advocates a mix of supplies, is
now being delayed by the same Minister – just like the National
Development Plan. So why the reluctance? Three years ago the
director-general of Energy used the UK example of government being
held to ransom by the IPP artificially raising renewables cost
following the Russian cut in gas supply as they did in the Ukraine
and Georgia. Hon Dikgale must bear that in mind when she favours
Brics, because Russia is part of that. Also, ―money from renewables
does not stay in South Africa‖, he justifies his stance in wanting
to avoid renewables. In the beginning this may have been the case,
but times have changed rapidly, not just in South Africa, but in the
world. Now major manufacturing of renewables is taking place in
South Africa and 30 000 jobs have been created in that industry in
these last three years.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 131
Prices dropped in three years from R3,25c per kilowatt-hour to just
62c. From R3,25c to just 62c in just three years! Plants and sites
were established all over South Africa, including the Northern and
Eastern Cape. Ms D Mokhachane, the new director-general for Treasury
and corporate social investment, CSI, do not agree with this pronuclear fossil fuel option and support renewables because of the
affordability and common sense – I wonder why there is now such a
surge to discredit Treasury.
If given the green light, these renewables could bridge the divide
between the now-known power shortfall in just two years – just two
years! Nuclear, on the other hand, at the current estimated
R1 trillion rate for the fleet of nuclear power stations, is not
only unaffordable, but would only come online in 18 years. Yet every
nuclear build around the world is between five and 20 years behind
schedule. Some are delayed by more than 20 years. Nuclear will
produce 9 600 megawatt at a borrowing cost of R84 billion per annum
plus R50 billion running costs. Borrowings will be prohibitive due
to our downgrade, amongst other things.
What is being used as collateral then? The Public Investment
Corporation, PIC – that is the pension moneys of all the employees
in the government service in South Africa. Consumer income base?
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 132
Have the ratepayers been mortgaged? Has the taxpayer been mortgaged
and the pension money been mortgaged as collateral for this
particular loan?
Khusile and Medupi are years behind schedule and they have endless
technical difficulties like dodgy coal supply and industrial action.
But South Africa does, realistically, have a 26 unemployment rate.
So one cannot blame the construction workers at Khusile and Medupi
who don‘t want the contract to end, because they fear they will
become jobless, just like with the stadiums in the 2010 Soccer World
Cup.
Fossil fuels is really putting South Africa at risk of putting all
our eggs in one basket and opening ourselves up to massive
corruption. Remember the sale of the strategic oil reserves, as
already mentioned, in Langebaan, Koko‘s relatives are getting huge
contracts to get a coal deal to the Guptas and Zuma families and
contracts worth billions and more are questionable and now subject
to investigation. This isn‘t happening in the renewable industry.
A comparative analysis between Germany and South Africa conducted by
the SA Photovoltaic Industry Association shows that investment in
renewable energy is still grossly underfunded in our country. Even
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 133
though Germany receives a fraction of the solar radiation – in other
words not much sun – levels that we do, it still places far more
emphasis on harnessing energy from the Sun. Why are we not making
more use of resources readily available to us as a hot country? It
is significant that this week German production of solar energy
overtook nuclear production for the first time in history.
The Renewable Energy Independent Power Producer Procurement
programme must be tailored to focus on energy security and economic
objectives. Energy demand goes hand in hand with economic growth and
we must factor in renewable resources into this equation. A mediumscale energy procurement programme must be set up to ensure job
creation, local ownership and skills development at grassroots
level.
Rooftop programmes, as we have already heard, must be prioritised,
especially for small- and medium enterprises. We need to simplify
energy production to make more small businesses ... [Time expired.]
Thank you.
SALGA (CLLR R Mashego): Chairperson, as SA Local Government
Association, Salga, has started by wishing the newly appointed both
Minister and the Chief Whip. The assumption we are making is that
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 134
whoever appoints Ministers has the reason to appoint young women. We
must appreciate that person. [Applause.] I just don‘t know who that
person is, but he is doing a good job.
Hon Chairperson and the Minister, this debate takes place at a time
when our country is experiencing a wave of brutal attacks, abuse and
killings of women and girls. We are meeting at a time when our law
enforcement agencies and communities are beginning to clear our
society of human trafficking.
On behalf of the leadership of Salga and all our members, we condemn
these barbaric acts in the strongest possible terms as they do not
have a place in our peace and our loving society.
To the families who have lost their loved ones, as the SA Local
Government Association, we convey our heartfelt condolences.
Hon Chairperson, it is our singular honour to contribute to this
important debate on the energy sector which requires our collective
efforts as a nation and most important as the three spheres of
government.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 135
Chairperson, on behalf of the MEC of Salga and all our members, I
wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon Ms Mmamoloko
Kubayi on her appointment as the Minister of Energy. We are
particularly pleased that within this short space of time, she has
expressed her vision to work with all critical stakeholders,
including the three spheres of government.
As a local sphere which is at the cold-face of development and
delivery, we welcome her emphasis on the strategic role local
government can play to realise our vision for a just and equitable
economic beneficiation through a more robust economic empowerment
model.
We do all agree at least as the progressive forces that the
imperative to transform the minerals and energy complex in our
country is long overdue. Without a radical tempering with these, our
people will continue to be unemployed and not to be beneficiaries of
these sectors.
Transforming the energy sector and ensuring viability of both Eskom
and municipalities must remain our national priority. In the same
vein the Eskom‘s sovereign debt has a symbolic relationship with
that of a county. It must be understood that local government‘s
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 136
stability is also inherently linked to the country‘s sovereign
stability.
Furthermore, hon members, we need to transform the energy provision
sector, especially in terms of the role of municipalities in the
energy generation, more special because there is a competition
between Eskom and municipalities to deliver the electricity to
direct people. If municipalities were able to develop their own
energy generation projects and more procure energy from the local
sources, we could unlock local economic development and job
opportunities. This will sustainable contribute towards ensure
security of supply and stabilise the ever increasing prices of
electricity and energy which would benefit the economy as a whole.
We are thus advocating for a policy framework where municipalities
become more energy self-sufficient, particularly as we increase
access to energy and electricity.
As SA Local Government, we are indeed more than keen to engage with
the hon Minister on these matters as speedily as possible.
Hon Chairperson, some of you will recall that a process of
transforming the electricity distribution industry in South Africa
was initiated in the late 1990s but soon discontinued in the early
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 137
2000s. The local sphere of government was then left with a legacy
whereby a constitutional authority and a fiscal power of
municipalities for distribution remains undermined. We want to make
an urgent call to the hon Minister to work with us to address the
institutional arrangement to electricity distribution in South
Africa.
The increasing inability of a number of poorer municipalities to
sustainably service their debt with Eskom debt is related into the
structural and systematic challenges as mentioned above. The
challenges remain a significant driver to the current Eskom vs
municipal debt logjam, which has been a subject of discussion by the
various committees of this august House. May I take this opportunity
to appreciate the leadership of role played by the NCOP to resolve
these challenges? We further welcome the renewed commitment to
formalise a structured Intergovernmental Relations, IGR, engagement
led by the hon Minister.
In our previous contribution in these debates, we identified a
number of important challenges that as strategic partners, we must
address in order to ensure our country is able to provide reliable
and dependable energy supply. We argued that for us to achieve this,
what is required by the citizens and indeed our economy there is a
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 138
need to ensure that there is extension of distribution
infrastructure to reach all households; there is an access to
sufficient energy and a range of energy sources that are modern,
affordable, safe and sustainable; that there is refurbishment and
maintenance of the distribution infrastructure in order to ensure
reliability and quality to access for consumption and production
purposes if our economy is to grow. The prices of electricity are
such that consumers afford to pay for services and that distribution
remains financially viable.
Cities constitute a significant part of our development. They make
up the spaces where our future is influenced, where economic growth
springs from the bustling activities of a multiplicity of social and
economic players, and where our pressing environmental challenges
are most evident and indeed where huge energy consumption is
located.
Hon members, we must work together to implement the Integrated Urban
Development Framework. Throughout our cities and urban areas, we
must ensure that we have sustainable energy efficient buildings,
sustainable integrated transport; sustainable energy and sustainable
water supply and of course sustainable waste disposal.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 139
It is within the above context therefore that the success of
transformation of the energy sector hinges on the significant
contribution of the local government sector across the value chain.
It is through their meaningful contribution that our country will
ensure security of supply and stabilise the ever increasing prices
of electricity and energy which would benefit the economy as a
whole.
During the year of the women, OR Tambo made it very clear that, I
quote: ―In our beleaguered country, the place of a woman is in the
battlefront of the struggle‖. It speaks to the earlier on that the
appointing person of the Ministers recognises that indeed the
women‘s place is no longer in the kitchen but in the forefront of
the Ministry of Energy. This was not slogarising.
Women in the august House are indeed a testimony of that vision and
heroism. Pursuit to these ideals, hon Chair, Salga recently launched
a Women‘s Commission as such; we welcome the announcement by the
minister to convene a National Economic Lekgotla to focus on the
economic empowerment of women. The energy mix sector provides the
number of economic opportunities which can greatly contribute
towards realisation of racial economic transformation.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 140
Hon members, as Salga, we support the Minister‘s emphasis of the
benefits of energy efficiency. Improved energy efficiency is the
most cost effective and readily available energy source. Energy
efficiency project reduce municipal operational budgets, enhance the
competitiveness of our economies, protect the environment and
contribute to our efforts as a county as a whole to reach our energy
reduction and climate change targets.
Optimistic targets have been set for municipalities for energy
efficiency and reduction in energy use in the Department of Energy
and the draft National Energy Efficiency Strategy. These targets
matter so we appeal that municipalities receive adequate resources
and support to delivery on our common policy objectives. We have
heard that the Minister has only giving R2 billion to the
municipalities. We think it is small. Thank you very much. [Time
expired.] [Applause.]
Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, members and fellow South African citizens
I want to start off by congratulating the new Minister with her
appointment. Further, I would like to focus on concerns in
programmes three, five and six – dealing with petroleum and
petroleum products regulation, nuclear energy and clean energy.
Programme three pertains to petroleum and petroleum products
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 141
regulation. The regulation of the petroleum industry to ensure the
optimum functioning of the petroleum industry is key and critically
needed in an environment where the Department of Energy regularly
ignores the Constitution and the laws of South Africa.
The department sold R5 billion of South Africa‘s oil reserves and we
already heard this from other speakers as well. But this was without
permission from the National Treasury or Parliament. Further, the
former Minister of Energy, Ms. Tina Joemat-Pettersson and the
Central Energy Fund CEO proceeded with the sale thereof without
submitting information to Treasury. This is a contravention of the
Public Finance Management Act.
Minister Joemat-Pettersson came before the NCOP and claimed that we
do not understand how this works and that was not a sale but a
rotation of unsuitable stock as was previously done before and that
she did not require permission from National Treasury. This was a
blatant and deliberate lie to our committee. We now know the truth;
that according to the current Minister, it was indeed a sale. This
sale left our country vulnerable with only enough oil in reserve to
sustain our country for one day when the international average of
oil stocks is at least 90 days. Ten million barrels were sold at
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 142
close to R5 billion. The shock came that this fuel stock was sold at
$29 a barrel when the price at that stage was around $49 a barrel.
Mr F ESSACK: Scandalous!
Mr W F FABER: It is scandalous, hon member. South Africa effectively
lost more than R2.2 billion. It is thus then our duty to ask who the
beneficiaries were and why there were no tender procedures.
Minister, I hope you will get to the bottom of this. We therefore
welcome the investigation by you Minister into this dodgy deal and
we look forward to engaging with you on key matters such as this.
Minister, I hope that the department stays accountable as you just
said a few minutes ago.
On programme five we move on to nuclear energy. This programme aimed
for South Africa to purchase 9 600 megawatts of additional nuclear
power. This was as the hon Mthimunye rightfully said; was decided at
an ANC conference but the Cape Town High Court held that the ANC
government procurement processes was unconstitutional and that five
decisions it had taken were illegal. Public hearings are required
with sufficient substantial inputs given the immense cost and impact
it will have upon South Africa‘s infrastructure budget expenditure.
Finally any international agreement must be scrutinised by this
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 143
Parliament before a deal can be signed. The updated Integrated
Resource Plan, IRP, base case document envisages a new build program
of power generating capacity over the period 2021 to 2050. This IRP
unveiled late last year that South Africa would not be in need of
nuclear until 2035. Hon members you can remember that we were at
Kusile and then in Madupi, if they are full operation we wont need
nuclear. You don‘t even want to talk about the coal supply scandals
with the Guptas and Zumas, state capture report also to be
investigated and people being brought to book if they have to come
from Dubai to account. I would like to know if they will also be
brought to book, Minister as you are looking at all these scandals.
On programme six regarding clean energy, Ms. Joemat-Pettersson did
well by pushing the renewable energy agenda to build a new capacity
into the electricity market, as it is much cheaper than nuclear. The
DA welcomes the more affordable clean energy. The sunny Northern
Cape where I come from has already benefitted with jobs created in
the past few years.
Ms N P KONI: Where we come from.
Mr W F FABER: Where we come from, hon Koni you are quite correct.
The renewable energy has already brought more than R2 billion worth
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 144
of investment to South Africa. Minister, please provide clarity to
this house as to what happened to the controversial power purchase
agreements that would have unlocked to a further R57 billion worth
of investment? I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N P KONI: I just want to check if it is parliamentary for a
member to appear on the Order Paper and then be missing in action at
the same time. It seems you are also confused, you do not know where
he is. He is a member from your own party, therefore, I just want to
check.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES (Mr A J NYAMBI): he is not in the
House that is why I am inviting the hon Minister.
Ms N P KONI: is it parliamentary for him to appear here and be
missing in action?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: COMMITTEES (Mr A J NYAMBI): It is part of
what is happening in parliament, so do not make me deal with
members. I am presiding.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Hon House Chairperson, let me take this
opportunity to thank members for congratulatory messages. They are
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 145
appreciated as well. It is our duty to serve the people of this
country. I further thank those who are supporting the budget and
note those who do not support.
Let me start with hon Londt. Pardon me if I don‘t pronounce your
name correctly, hon members. I am not getting used to the National
Council of Provinces. Hon member, I am not so sure I understand what
you meant when you were talking about everyday scandals. Which
scandals are you referring to? For example, today there is no
scandal in the department. So, let‘s be quite clear - I would have
appreciated it if you would have read the documents as you claim.
Firstly, let me clarify you – you were asking when are we concluding
the integrated energy plan and the integrated resource plan, IRP, in
terms of the annual performance plan. It is there in the plan - it
appears in our annual performance plan. It is stated in the last
quarter of the financial year - you have to understand. Secondly,
the hon member said that there is a nuclear deal; I am not sure
where you got that from. There is no nuclear deal.
Thirdly, the member said that the former Minister, Joemat-Pettersson
appealed a court decision. Hon member, I think we need to check if
you are not visiting fake news websites because when the court
judgement was released, I was in office as the Minister and I held a
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 146
press briefing where I stated that we are not appealing. Now, which
appeal are you talking about? I am going to request that you go and
read as you have committed yourself by telling us that you are
reading so that when we engage, we can engage constructively and
that will save us time.
Let me come to hon Dikgale ...
Sepedi:
Re le kwele mma. Re a leboga. Re kgona go kwešiše gore ka kua
Limpopo go na le letšatši ebile re ka le šomiša ka mokgwa wa maleba
- e sego letšatši fela, le boloko bo a šomišwa. Re tla le šomiša
bjalo ka payomase [biomass] re gotše ka bjona mollo gore re kgone go
apea borotho bana ba je. Ke tšeo re di lebeletšego re le Kgoro ya
Enetši gore re kgone go dira gore tikologo ya rena e be ye e
hlwekilego. Re lebeletše tšeo ka moka; ebile re le kwele. Re tla
lokiša re bone gore Limpopo ga re fišwe ke letšatši fela re
ntshofale, efela re tla le šomiša gore le re hole.
English:
Hon Khawula, you were talking about an estimated trillion; I don‘t
know where you got those figures. I keep on saying to members, one
of those things ... let me just explain nuclear new build programme.
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 147
Firstly, let‘s get it clear; there is no deal. Now it is out of the
way, you should not raise that issue anymore. I hope when I come
back to the NCOP, I won‘t be explaining that there is no nuclear
deal.
The second thing, in terms of cost estimation and the funding model,
we have not effected that as government and I will explain. What we
have done since 1995 is that we have signed agreements with five
countries. The agreements were not signed yesterday, they were not
signed in 2013. They were signed over the years, as from 1995.
The mistake that was done by the department and which we have
acknowledged was that those intergovernmental agreements should have
been sent to Parliament, hence we agreed with the judgement for
processing and approval. We have said we will set them aside as the
court has proposed. They didn‘t even set them aside, the said the
process is wrong. What we need to do is to take those IGAS (Igas
Energy) and bring them to Parliament. We are saying that we are not
bringing the old IGAS but we are signing new ones so that they are
current and relevant – that is the first thing we are doing. The
second thing is around court judgement - it didn‘t say we should not
go nuclear. It didn‘t go into details of the contents, it talked
about the process. In section 34 Determination, the court proposed
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 148
that we should go and look at the process that we do in
determination. We don‘t agree but we are prepared to go to the
National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa, to do the
consultation process.
Before my time runs out ... House Chair, I thought that you will
give me more time because during the initial process I spared some
minutes knowing that I will have more time ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I will allocate you your
minutes.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Okay. Firstly, let me start with the issue
of independent power producers, IPPs. Bid Window 1, 2 and 3 created
no jobs. Let us not be fascinated by investments outside the
country; they are welcome and we are happy about them but it must
never be at the expense of South Africans. The reason I have said
that I will not sign these agreements now is because I want to
secure the South African business. The R58 billion guarantee that I
will sign will be to protect South Africa‘s small businesses. I am
not saying that I don‘t want black economic empowerment, BEE,
companies. I want ownership and that is what we are saying. There is
zero percent job increase in Bid Window 1, 2 and 3. The jobs that
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 149
they created at that time were only in construction – building. Now
you can go and check, it‘s zero. It can‘t be acceptable. We are
saying that we agree that private partnership is important; we are
happy about the renewables but the contracts and the conditions and
how we do this must be to the benefit of South Africans – all the
people of this country. Going forward, the issue of collateral, in
terms of ... Colleagues, hon Koni ...
Setswana:
Ke tlile go le kopa tlhe, ngwana wa ko gae, ke a kopa tsweetswe, a
re seke ra google ditaba tse e seng nnete [fake news]. A re ikageng
ka dipolelo tsa bobegakgang [media statement] gonne ...
English:
... some colleagues, even the DA Chief Whip of Western Cape – I am
not so sure about what you are referring to because most of the
things you were saying are not what I have said. Maybe I must start;
my name is Mamoloko Kubayi. Most of the things you said are not what
I have said. I have never said that we are going to run out of
energy in 18 months; it‘s not me. I have never talked about ... You
spoke about Eskom issues, I am not a Minister responsible for Eskom,
all what I do in terms of the responsibilities for example is that
we get an allocation under Vote No 26 and we transfer it; the same
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 150
as in municipalities. The running of Eskom and its management is
under Minister Lynne Brown; so, it is not me. I was worried while
sitting there and I was asking myself who is this person they are
talking about because it is definitely not me. It is not what I have
said in terms of the issues that are being raised. We need to be
sure that when we speak as members we are willing to assist.
Councillor Mashego, we have agreed with the Minister of the
Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Mr
Van Rooyen. We are establishing a co-ordinating team that is looking
at how to ensure that municipalities play a key role. There are
various proposals. Once they are available, I think he will be able
to share with SA Local Government Association, Salga. My door is
open, I have said to the Salga‘s CEO that I look forward to the day
where we can sit around the table and look at how we support
municipalities from our department and make sure that there is good
collaboration between us and local government. Our weakness is that
as a department we do not have Ministers and Members of Executive
Councils Meeting, Minmec. Co-ordination is lacking and we are trying
to find creative ways to be able to co-ordinate it. The issue about
me saying that the Minister lied - where did I say that? When and
where did I say that? I have never said that. [Interjections.]
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 30 MAY 2017
Page: 151
Sepedi:
Aowa, ke thoma le go go bona mamohla.
English:
For example, first thing is that the Strategic Fuel Fund report was
not commissioned by me but by Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson. It
was not me who wrote that report. It‘s the Minister who has done it;
I found it when I came into office. I will appreciate an opportunity
to come to the select committee so that I can explain this. We were
in the portfolio committee today and if you want the presentation,
you will have it – it is there in the portfolio committee meeting
minutes. [Time expired.] Thank you very much, House Chair.
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let me take this
opportunity to thank Salga, special delegates and the hon Minister.
Debate concluded.
The Council adjourned at 17:43.
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents