Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 10 May 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:00.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
NEW MEMBERS
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed with today’s
business, I wish to make the following announcement.
The vacancies which occurred in the National Assembly owing to
the resignation of Ms T M Joemat-Pettersson, Ms E D Peters and
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Mr M H Jonas have been filled by the nomination of Ms R C Adams,
Mr J J Dube and Mr T M Nkonzo, respectively, with effect from
12 April 2017. [Applause.]
The vacancies which occurred in the National Assembly owing to
the resignation of Dr H C Volmink and Mr N A Ramatlhodi have
been filled by the nomination of Mr G K Y Cachalia and
Mr S H Mbuyane, respectively, with effect from 18 April 2017.
[Applause.]
The vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the
resignation of Ms A D N Qikani has been filled by the nomination
of Mr T S Mpanza with effect from 24 April 2017. [Applause.]
The vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the
resignation of Ms T R Mabudafhasi has been filled by the
nomination of Ms L C Theko with effect from 1 May 2017.
[Applause.]
The members made and subscribed the oath in the Speaker’s
office.
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I would like to extend a warm word of welcome to all of the hon
members who have joined the National Assembly.
Question 52:
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Speaker,
the question, as I see it, deals with whether we will be able to
assist chicken farmers whose farms that have been closed. Let me
say that there is a process that is led by the Department of
Agriculture, the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, and
others to find funding that would allow these closed production
plants to be opened.
Whether all the workers will be employed will depend upon the
viability of the process as well as the sustainability and
profitability of those farms. The Deputy Minister will be
visiting some of the farms to verify their viability going
forward. The department is committed to ensuring that jobs are
saved.
We are concerned about the jobs being lost due to the brown meat
dumping by the European Union and America. The department
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believes that every job lost adds to unemployment. We are
prepared therefore to do all that we can to reopen those farms
and make sure that they are sustainable going forward.
Mr P D N MALOYI: Thank you very much, Minister. Minister, can
you please provide this House with the details of the
Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, Casp, meant to
grow the poultry industry in the 2017-18 financial years.
In addition to that, could you tell us whether government is
investigating the possibility of acquiring the closed poultry
farms? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Yes, as I
have said, there is an interministerial committee that is led by
DTI. The intention is to first determine the competitiveness of
the poultry industry.
Currently, our poultry industry is not good because of the
brining factor, as they could not open up other markets beyond
South Africa. That’s point number one.
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Point number two, the dumping of the dark meat on our shores has
made it that our companies had to close. Since some of the
companies that they have dumped on our shores are being
subsidised by their own country ... As I have said earlier, the
Deputy Minister will be visiting some of the farms so as to do
come to an understanding of what may be done.
We are really committed to ensuring that all the closed farms
are reopened, and we hope that those workers can be re-employed.
Government and the department are really committed.
Mr N M KHUBISA: Speaker, hon Minister, I think the whole issues
of farm acquisition is also linked to the whole issue of asset
ownership shareholding by the farmers. In understand that this
matter has been going on for quite some time because you find
that most of the employees who were retrenched or who lost their
jobs in these farms had been contractual employees for a long
time. That is something that should have been resolved long ago.
Now, Minister, I want to follow up on the issue of the
acquisition of these farms by government. We know that there is
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a farm in Cato Ridge, KwaZulu-Natal that has been experiencing
some challenges. I would like you to apprise this House and
update us regarding what has been done about the Rainbow Chicken
farm in Cato Ridge, KwaZulu-Natal, because many jobs were lost.
Just update us, hon Minister. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, you have the right to take a seat
while hon members ask follow-up questions.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you,
Speaker.
As I have said earlier, government ... or, the various
departments including DTI have been instructed to do a study of
all the farms that have been closed. Those farms were closed for
a number of reasons, such as their uncompetitiveness and the
fact that dumping has really killed the industry. Therefore, the
programme is there to make sure that those farms are re-opened.
I think the other question is how we make sure that those
farmworkers who have been working there are empowered to be
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owners going forward. We are looking at 30% set aside by
government, hoping that when those farms are opened they are
able to sell to state institutions like hospitals and prisons.
We are working on that programme. I think that a thorough report
will be given showing how far we have gone. That is one area we
believe we should address because one job lost is one job too
many, given the unemployment rate.
Mr N PAULSEN: Minister, you have just explained that the biggest
problem we have with agriculture and why it is dying is that our
farmers are not subsidised while they are competing with farmers
that are subsidised by their governments. So we can never
compete with the price of goods that are imported. So what are
we going to do to strengthen barriers to importing cheap
agricultural products while also assisting with beefing up
production of agriculture here in this country?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thanks, hon
Paulsen, for the question.
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The problems are not limited to the fact that that they are not
subsidised. One of the key cost factors in inputs is the issue
that we don’t produce enough soya bean. Soya bean makes up 70%
of what goes to feed. We still import it. That places a burden
on our farmers. That’s point number one.
But I think we need to look at the issue of competitiveness. I
have said that if we can reduce brining, I believe that our
chicken or our poultry will be able to enter some of the
industries.
But one of the problems besetting this industry is that it is
highly untransformed. It is one of the most untransformed
industries. That’s why the workers have not been part of that.
We are dealing with transformation. It is not something that we
can do overnight. It is a process. But of course, as you do it,
you end up being in courts.
So I agree with you, hon Paulsen, that there are things, such as
promoting the production of free-range chicken, that we need to
deal with if we are to succeed. I know that you are a farmer of
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free-range chicken. You will understand what I am talking about.
Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
He does understand!
MR M L W FILTANE: Hon Minister, I believe there are four factors
that were not given priority treatment, hence there are these
job losses.
My question to you at the end will be what you are going to do
about them.
The operational method of the enterprises ... To what extent was
government close to making sure that it will help sustain the
jobs?
The co-operation of the owner of the enterprises ... What role
did government play to make sure that they co-operated to save
the jobs?
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Why was South Africa exposed to this dumping? The use of
technology ... To what extent was technology used in order to
make sure that we have sustainable enterprises?
My questions, all in all, when lumped together, wants to know
what government did in order to save jobs, taking these four
factors into account which could have been used in order to save
the jobs? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you,
hon member. When the American government imposed an increase in
meat on bone, they wanted 140 tons. It was due to our tough
negotiations that we ended up with around 60 tons. But, of
course, that 60 tons was only from the US. We did not count
other products from the EU. So, like most African countries, we
have become a dumping ground because, in Europe, they eat the
white meat, the breast; the other portions of the meat are
exported to countries like ours. We negotiated strongly. If we
did not negotiate, I am sure the closure could have happened
long ago.
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One of the areas is the issue that hon Paulsen raised, namely
that our chicken industry, like other industries, is not
subsidised, and that it competes with Europe countries that are
subsidised. It is one of the areas we need to look at.
But as to what we have done as government, I have said that
there’s an interministerial committee led by DTI that has been
set up to look at how we salvage and save the industry, because
those jobs are very important.
Question 57:
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Speaker,
mallholder farmers are supported by Comprehensive Agricultural
Support Programme, CASP, and we have been able to sustain that
support. But, of course, we cannot claim to have achieved our
goal. We are supposed to have reached 430 000 small-scale
farmers. Our projection is to ensure that we grow that area. But
that growth will be linked to access to markets.
Therefore, we need to work very hard to improve the
profitability of those farms as well as access to markets. Some
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of them cannot be able to access markets because of the quality
of their product. That is the area we are currently focusing on;
to train them such that they are able to sell their products to
all the other markets. But they are faced with a competition
problem.
I am sure you are aware that recently there has been a case that
is being investigated by the Competition Commission concerning
the unscrupulous way of working by agency at the Durban fresh
markets that deprives our farmers of the benefit to sell their
product at profitable levels. Those are our challenges that we
are dealing with. But we believe that as the department working
with other sister departments, we will be able to create viable
small-scale farmers.
But I must say that no farmer wants to be called a smallholder
forever. Smallholder is a stage of development. All of them want
to be commercial farmers. There is a route we need to take
working together with them to improve them to be able to
commercialise in the future.
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The SPEAKER: Is hon Mathale in the House? There is no follo-up
question from hon Mathale and therefore we move to hon Steyn.
Mr A STEYN: Speaker, I will also ask a question on behalf of hon
Mathale, I am sure he won’t mind. Hon Minister, I have been
listening to you, unfortunately this whole issue of putting one
million hectares of under utilised land into production has been
on the programme for the department since 2009. Won’t you tell
me why can’t we even put one hectare under production then?
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WOLIMO, AMAHLATHI NEZOKULOBA: Ndilusizi kuba
ohloniphekileyo uSteyn besikunye izolo kwikomiti yemicimbi
yesebe kwaye uyayazi ukuba sinayo inkqubo. Enye yeengxaki
esinazo kwicala lezolimo yimbalela ethi xa ifikile ingakhethi
mfama osakhasayo okanye omkhulu.
English:
But I can assure her that we have got a programme that emanates
from Operational Phakisa that envisages how commercial farmers
will partner with the department. Remember, there is a programme
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with the Department Of Rural Development and Land Reform that
looks at one family one hectare. That programme is to address
the issue you are raising.
So, I agree with you. We may not have achieved what we have
planned for but the number of factors has been playing – as I’m
saying that we are from drought and when drought hits it does
not deal with small scale farmers. But I can assure we are going
to achieve the one million hectares by 2030 as explained by the
National Development Plan, NDP. I am also sure that we will give
you figures at the next portfolio committee. Thank you very
much.
Unfortunately I can’t answer people who have not been recognised
because when they speak to me I am not obliged to answer them.
They can use signals but only those who can’t speak can use
signals. Thank you very much.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Speaker, commissar Paulsen will take this
question.
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Mr N PAULSEN: Hon Speaker, this is a more appropriate response
to hon Steyn’s follow-up question so Minister you must take
careful note. The problem with farming in this country is that
the agricultural sector is monopolised by 5% of the 37 000
farmers who produce 70% of the food. So, why are you, Minister,
scared or reluctant to subdivide large agricultural land to
promote small-scale farming?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Speaker,
agriculture is not about cutting farms to give to others. It has
a lot to do with it.
One of the major cost in agriculture is
the input cost, the knowledge base, the ability to manage and
our belief is that you don’t have to kill the commercial farmers
because you want to grow the small scale farmers. You have to
work in a way that both grow because food security is key in
this country.
The answer therefore is to ensure that we grow the small-scale
farmers while we work with the commercial farmers. But, again,
the programme of land reform does not lie in my department. How
I wish it was so that I can answer your question properly.
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Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Speaker, Minister, it is common knowledge
that we have had limited success in respect of the small
farmers. The land that has been allocated to the small scale
farmers with very little management skills, very little
knowledge of running a business and my understanding is that the
department was supposed to have provided them with all the
skills and the training through an entire process to ensure the
success and to a certain extent this has not happened. Can you
tell us Minister, what do you intend doing about putting in a
mechanism in place to ensure the success of the small farmers in
order to get them to grow?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: One of the
programmes we are coming up with is to ensure that unemployed
agricultural graduates are organised and put together so that
they can get experiential knowledge through being deployed into
those small-scale farmers or in farms acquired by people who
have been given farms through land distribution.
We believe through that we can be able to ensure that those
young people will be able to work with those farmers as well as
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to make sure that our agricultural colleges deploy those people
to those farms and we have got a programme to deal with that.
Let me agree with you that one of the shortcomings have been the
ability to manage as well as to make sure that those farms are
run effectively and profitable. It is something that we are
dealing with in the Department of Rural Development and Land
Reform to ensure that unemployed graduates are being brought
back. We also promote mentoring by commercial farmers who are
willing to come on board provided they have a will. Because it
is something else to deploy you to mentor somebody without you
having the will and at the end of day that person does not
develop. It is something that we are looking at thoroughly.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Speaker, hon Minister, I think a programme of
this nature with such a huge target on jobs who required that
one has got a plan like from year to year. What are the
frequencies of this programme in order to be sure that you will
gradually get to those million jobs and how many are there – you
know where - so far. What is the year to year plan and how far
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have we gone up till now in order to give South Africans a hope
of a better future?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Speaker,
one of the programmes of the department is to use CASP, so that
we are able to allocate funding to small-scales farmers. Also to
make sure that other heart issues like infrastructure
development – that is why we speak of promoting agro processing
and that is why we have been working on Agri parks led by rural
development. It is to ensure that farmers do not only get
involved into primary agriculture but all that they produce get
processed so that value add can be done.
We have got a programme and I know that yesterday we were
together as well at the portfolio committee and the report was
given. Our target may not at all time be met given the factors I
have outlined. One of those is the frequency of drought and also
how to hone the knowledge and the training of our small-scale
farmers hence we believe that the redeployment of agricultural
graduates back into those farms will assist us in a long way.
And also how do we make sure that we give them the necessary
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equipment and the know-how when to plant and what to plant under
which climatic conditions. For instance we do not plant mangoes
in the Eastern Cape when you know that in winter they will be
frost. Thank you.
Question 40:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: Thank you very much, Speaker.
The essence of the question is essentially linked to the
Koornfontein mine; one of the first cost plus mines in Eskom.
Koornfontein mine was duly commissioned in 1968.
It dedicatedly supplied coal to Komati Power Station until it
was mothballed in 1990. Upon its return to service in 2008 a
contract was signed with the Koornfontein mine, which was then
owned by Siyanda and later Glencore; and this is the direct
answer to your question, hon member Mazzone.
This contract was concluded on the basis of a board approved
2008 medium term mandate, which is a mandate to negotiate and
conclude contracts on a medium-term from October 2008 to March
2018. Therefore, there was no tender process.
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In 2016 there was a change of ownership of the Koornfontein mine
from Glencore to Tegeta. The change of ownership did not change
the 2008 medium-term mandate. Intrinsic to the lessons of 2008
load shedding was to maintain optimal coal stock piles and
Komati has a ten day stock pile limitation against an optimal
stock pile requirement of 20 days.
The Koornfontein mine offered Eskom the use of their coal stock
yard to supplement the coal stock at Komati so as to increase
the Komati coal stock pile to the required twenty stock days.
The parties further agreed to reinstall the conveyor belt that
was decommissioned when Komati was mothballed; effectively a
replacing trucking as the coal mode of delivery. This would
reduce the delivered cost of coal as well as address the
negative impacts associated with truck haulage.
In the award of the contract to Tegeta, Eskom followed its
prescribed procurement processes which permit modification of
contracts. The modification to extend the R7 billion, contract
was granted and it was supported by National Treasury in this
regard. Thank you.
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Ms N W A MAZZONE: Thank you, Speaker and thank you, Minister.
Minister given the current appalling state of affairs regarding
alleged scandals, state capture, nepotism, conflict of interest
and the likes that are rocking Eskom at present, I can’t but
wonder who will be held to blame for, not only tender processes
that are not being adhered to, but also for the seemingly
endless allegations of wrong doing by the top management of
Eskom.
In light of this, Minister Brown, will the Minister agree to the
suggestion that the CEO of Eskom, Mr Koko, be suspended
immediately pending the outcome of an investigation into his
involvement with these wrong doings?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: Speaker, I thank that an
entirely different question but let me answer the question. At
the moment Mr Koko has – it’s entirely different to the question
that you originally ask Mam, because the original contract was
drawn or the medium-term agreement was done in 2008 and it
stretches to 2018. So in essence Mr Koko was not necessarily the
person – and I’m not investigating him for this matter.
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At the moment, the board has approved the Cliffe Decker Hofmeyr
to investigate the allegations that have been in the public
space around Mr Koko. I await the board’s presentation to me
which should be by the end of this week.
Mr M M DLAMINI: Thanks, Speaker. Minister the
PriceWaterhouseCoopers, PwC investigation shows that the current
contract, this one that you are talking about, is irregular. It
has got a lot of mistakes and it was done in a rush. Obviously,
we know why it was done in a rush, because of the Tegeta and the
Gupta involvement.
However, that happened under this current board. So you can’t
tell us about things of 2008. Under this current board and under
this current CEO, who has - there is concrete evidence that he
has awarded his own daughter with tenders worth million in
Eskom; and he has not denied it.
So, in principle, don’t you think that it is critical and
important, because we are not just talking of a driver of Eskom;
we are talking of a CEO. That this man must be suspended with
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immediate effect while the probe is still taking place, and also
this board as well because these things happened under their
watch. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: Thank you very much, Speaker.
The PwC report does not cover this contract. This is the R6,95
billion, contract. The PwC report covers the Brakfontein
colliery, the Manungu colliery, the Keaton mining and it covers
Universal Coal. It covers all those four contracts so the PwC
report has nothing to do with the original question that I had
to answer in this House today. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Minister, thank you
for your response. Hon Minister last week the special
investigating unit appeared before the justice comedian
indicated in its report that it was about to provide the
President with its report relating to co-mining contracts going
from 2006 to 2012, which will cover the period which you refer
to.
In response to my question the head of the SIU also indicated
that should the need arise they could extend the investigation
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into state-owned enterprises in general and that they are
assisting in the SABC inquiry as well.
Would you not consider in the light of allegations on this
particular contract that it might be wise to ask the SIU to
investigate whether there were any irregularities in this
specific Koornfontein contract; given the consent in the public
domain and given that, if my understanding is correct, from the
National Treasury whilst you indicated they approved it; that
there were certain conditions imposed which might not have been
complied with and which they indicated require a forensic
investigation. What would be your response to that hon Minister?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: Thank you very much, Speaker.
I think you are actually speaking about different things. The
Treasury approval that we received, that Eskom received for this
particular mine and the reason why this mine is particularly
identified – because hon Mazzone actually says it is the R7
billion mine. So I know it is this particular mine that we are
speaking about.
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The National Treasury support the extension of the contract with
no conditions on this particular mine. However, let me deal with
the issue of investigation because I think if there are
allegations against, and the PwC report does throw up a number
of allegations. We would then have to ask the SIU to
investigate.
At this stage, there are a number of investigations happening in
Eskom, around particular matters that are a documented proof
that those were issues that must be investigated. Where the
issues have a documented proof and we don’t have to verify it
Sir, we will investigate these matters. Thank you very much.
Mr N SINGH: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Minister my question deals
with the competitive tender processes, and we will offer you an
opportunity to express an opinion or whether you still hold a
view that you held on the 22 January 2017.
I want to comment you hon Minister for having been as reported,
the first Cabinet Minister to openly support the appointment of
a commission of inquiry into state capture. You said this in
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relation to the involvement of the Guptas in Eskom and this is
what you said and I quote: “I really hope the President appoints
a commission at some point. It is necessary so we can talk the
few things through”; Brown said in an interview with the City
Press sister newspaper Rapport.
I’m sure you remember what you said and we comment you for that
Minister. What I like to know is whether you hold the same view
that there should be a full audit, a forensic audit into all the
tenders that have been issued by Eskom because Eskom is in the
media space nowadays for quote, unquote:” shady deals with
various suppliers”. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: Speaker, I repeat the point I
have made earlier and that is if there is documented evidence
other than the investigations that are happening at the moment
in Eskom, we will happily do those investigations.
The hon member Singh asked me on the same day or the next week
in a portfolio committee the same question. Hon member Singh,
the prerogative to appoint a Judicial Commission of Inquiry,
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rest with the President. The point I was making is that I would
welcome an investigation, any investigation into the allegations
that are made in the state of capture report. Thank you.
Question 64:
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, I provided a
detailed written reply to Parliament 16 days ago to a similar
question on radical economic transformation, and I will
therefore simply highlight a few key areas today.
Government’s economic transformation agenda is about ensuring
growth that directly, sustainably, and expeditiously addresses
the high levels of poverty, inequality, and unemployment in
South Africa. To achieve this, the country needs faster growth,
more inclusive growth, and jobs-rich growth so that the economy
can generate the resources to meet these challenges.
Our work on economic transformation includes two key components.
The first is structural – to grow the size and resilience of the
economy, including through promoting entrepreneurship on scale,
increasing the level of domestic and foreign investment in the
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economy, promoting beneficiation of raw materials into finished
goods to break with the colonial legacy, strengthening economic
links with the rest of the African continent, and promoting
higher levels of industrial innovation. The recent ratings
downgrade is bad news for our efforts to grow the economy faster
and at a more inclusive level. [Interjections.] Thus, we need to
take steps to ensure we regain investment-grade status from
lenders and pursue a credible, bold, inclusive strategy in the
interest of our people.
The second component is to improve the participation of black
South Africans in the economy through increased equity by black
investors in the economy, worker participation on company boards
and as shareholders in the firms concerned, job creation that
can draw in and benefit large numbers of unemployed persons,
promotion of small businesses in townships and rural
enterprises, and improvements in skills, wages and productivity
of workers.
The high levels of wealth and economic concentration, hon
Pikinini, come at a price to the economy. To build more
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inclusive ownership and participation levels, we have to address
a number of issues: firstly, corporate misbehaviour through
cartels, price-fixing and market allocation that deters and
inhibits new entrants from securing space in the economy; and,
secondly, corruption in the public sector that diverts resources
away from our people and from urgent backlogs we must address.
“Radical” in the context of economic transformation refers to
ensuring that transformation that is bold, extensive,
implemented expeditiously, and benefits the widest number of our
people.
At an operational level, the department has implemented or
supported policies and measures to promote bold and inclusive
economic growth, which include addressing transformation of
ownership, management, staffing, and minimum wages in the
economy. The work of a number of agencies, from the actions
against cartels by the competition authorities, the agreement to
save thousands of jobs and open space for new enterprises in
supplying spaza shops, and the R23-billion fund for black
industrialists, set up by the Industrial Development
Corporation, IDC, to the increasing number of black South
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Africans who are making components for the national
infrastructure projects, all these represent examples of action
that is bold and radical, that is transformative, and that lays
the basis for inclusive growth. Thank you.
Mr I A PIKININI: Speaker, I take note that our people have been
excluded from the economy as a key feature of colonialism and
apartheid. Under democracy, the ANC-led government has begun to
make changes to this, but we need to move with more speed and
boldness. Minister, in your reply, you referred to the idea of a
worker-empowerment model as part of radical economic
transformation. How will this work, and is there any
international example that can be given of where workers have
been empowered?
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, through you to
the hon Pikinini: I think first we would make the point that
there is no one-size-fits-all example where we can simply
replicate or copy a model elsewhere in the world. Having said
that, there is indeed a very rich and deep experience of
different forms of worker participation that is broad based and
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that empowers large numbers of people. For example, in Sweden
and Germany, you have the codetermination model where workers
sit on company boards and ensure that their interests are
represented, but companies are also efficient, dynamic and
competitive.
In countries as diverse as China, India, Spain, Italy, and many
others, there are models of worker participation – cooperatives, worker co-operatives, or instances where workers coown shares in the company that enable the benefits of economic
activity to also reach workers. Indeed, not very long ago, I met
with the chief executive officer of a worker co-operative in
Spain called Mondragon, and it employs 75 000 workers, many of
them in highly productive enterprises in the export economy. So,
we have many examples we can build on and, as we ensure that our
empowerment is broad based and that more South Africans benefit
from it, we can take note of these and learn very useful lessons
that can be applied across large numbers of people.
Speaker, very recently, we signed an agreement between my
department, the International Labour Organisation and the
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government of Flanders to make available some resources for a
social economy project that we hope can deepen these efforts to
ensure ordinary South Africans benefit from economic growth and
economic inclusion. Thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Speaker, through you to the hon Minister: It
is quite clear that most black people do not have access to the
economy, hence a need for robust economic transformation. Of
course, I think there is a need to investigate and come up with
a database so that we get a picture as to who owns what,
especially in big companies.
Is there anything from your side, as the department, that has
been done to enable an investigation of that sort? Such an
investigation should include at least 50 companies to see who
owns what in terms of ownership and in terms of shareholding,
etc. Another problem faced by black people in particular is the
issue of equity. What has your department done in that regard?
Thank you very much.
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The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, I thank the hon
Khubisa. I will try and perhaps start with the second question.
On equity, the Industrial Development Corporation has created a
special fund, a black industrialist fund, and it has put up
R23 billion. Over the last number of number of years, the IDC
has backed black South Africans to start up businesses, to buy
businesses, and to acquire a share of businesses.
In the next question put to me, there is a part of that reply
where I will also give a few numbers. Hon Khubisa, in the first
part of the question raised, which is access to the economy, you
have identified specifically the issue of ownership. Of course,
access goes beyond ownership, and it goes beyond ownership
identified only through shares, but that is nonetheless quite an
important issue. There has been a big debate and no agreement
about what the level of ownership by black South Africans is,
for example in the Johannesburg Stock Exchange.
A number of studies have been done. My department may well look
at this as to where it can consolidate existing work on the
macroeconomy. We have begun to look at sector-specific instances
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of participation by black South Africans – taking, for instance,
the clothing, textile and footwear sector where, in fact, we
have deepening participation, both by black South Africans and
workers, in the ownership structures. However, no comprehensive
database exists that everybody agrees on as a common reference
point. So, the debate about progress is bedevilled by the fact
that parties in the economy fight over the data. They fight over
agreement on the data. I think your suggestion that perhaps we
consider pulling a consolidated study together is excellent.
Thank you.
Dr M J CARDO: Speaker, through you to the Minister: In a
previous reply to one of my parliamentary questions, you said
that radical economic transformation was about “ensuring growth
that directly, sustainably and expeditiously promotes national
development goals”. You also acknowledged, and you have
reiterated it now, that the recent ratings downgrade was “bad
news for our efforts to grow the economy at a faster and more
inclusive level”.
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In light of these statements, what steps are being taken by your
department to ensure that we regain investment-grade status, and
do you support the view of some of your colleagues in Cabinet,
like the Minister of Small Business Development, that radical
economic transformation must involve expropriation of land
without compensation? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, through you to
the hon Cardo: At the heart of getting an investment grade for
the country lies a credible growth strategy. So, perhaps I
should just start with the prior question. Why is it necessary
to get an investment grade? As long as South Africa is dependent
on capital markets, on lending money that belongs to others,
they need to know, and they want to know, whether we are able to
pay back that money. The rating gives an indication of the
extent to which we can.
So, the credible story, the credible growth story, in my
interactions and, I am sure, the interactions more recently of
hon Gigaba with the ratings agencies, it is clear that they look
at a number of key issues. Firstly, what is your growth stance?
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How will you increase the capacity of the economy to grow? In
that regard, there are a number of elements that we have put
forward as government. They are about increasing levels of
domestic investment, enhancing the skills base – I am standing
next to the Minister of Higher Education and Training, and I
have to make that point – ensuring that the National
Infrastructure Plan is purposefully implemented and efficiently
executed, supporting industrial activity across wide sectors of
the economy – recently, Minister Rob Davies announced the latest
version of the Industrial Policy Action Plan – and catalysing
what we can do in the farming and agro-processing value chain.
My colleague the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and
Fisheries, hon Zokwana, spoke earlier about some of the efforts
in that regard. They are a few examples of what needs to be
done. Comprehensively and coherently, you will find the ideas in
both the Nine-Point Plan and the policies that we have put
forward as government.
The second part deals with the issue of landownership and, more
generally, these areas. Of course, I can only speak about one
critical issue, and that is from our vantage point, what is
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important is to have broad-based economic development. I remain
convinced that the Constitution is robust. It is capable of
ensuring that we are able to reach the kind the things that we
need to. If you look at the clauses in the Constitution, they
give us wide latitude. The key issue has been whether we have
done enough in the pursuit of the constitutional goals of an
inclusive society and, therefore, an inclusive economy.
I want to cite the example of competition policy, recognising
time is limited, where we have taken basically the same law that
had been in place since 1999 and ensured that it deals much more
actively with issues of employment of workers, access into the
economy offered to small businesses, actions against cartels and
so on. We have to be able to use the legal toolkit and the
policy toolkit very actively to ensure that we have
transformation in South Africa. Thank you.
Mr M S MBATHA: Speaker, through you to the hon Minister: The
definition of radical economic transformation depends on who
wakes up where. Your President and your Deputy President have
two distinct definitions. Would you say the ones you have just
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provided are your own, not the government view, because it is
clear that your government does not have an idea what it is
talking about?
We would like to put it to you that perhaps some of the things
you need to consider, amongst other things to disrupt the
colonial trends of the structure of the economy and to disrupt
the colonial trends of the ownership of the economy, are the
following: the expropriation of land without compensation, the
nationalisation of mines, and the provision of free higher
education until the first degree is obtained. Would you agree
that that is much more mass based, much more benefiting real
South Africans than what you are talking about?
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, through you to
the hon Mbatha: I feel like I am back in the portfolio
committee, since a number of members of the portfolio committee
have asked me questions, so I feel very welcome with that.
I think you will find that the key elements I have outlined in
my reply were referred to in the state of the nation address by
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the President. You will find them referred to in the
parliamentary replies given by the Deputy President. You will
find them in the manifesto of the ruling party, a copy of which
I have brought with today and which I am quite happy to share
with hon members. [Interjections.] You will find them in the
policies adopted at the conference of the ruling party.
[Interjections.]
So, rather than any confusion about this, I think there are very
clear elements to it. Radical economic transformation and
inclusive growth have to have a number of components. Yes, those
components mean dealing with the structure of the economy. It is
true that when we look at our history, South Africa and just
about every other country on the African continent had economies
that were developed to service the natural resource needs of
Europe and the United States. More recently, there is a growing
consensus on the continent that we need an industrialisation
strategy for the continent where the iron ore, the coal, the
platinum, all the minerals of South Africa are, in fact,
beneficiated locally. That idea you will find broad consensus
on. When we look at models to ensure that we, in fact, have wide
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benefits of this devolving to the South African people, there is
a range of different models. I spoke earlier, in relation to the
question by hon Pikinini, about worker empowerment models that
have developed elsewhere and that we can learn from.
So, I think there is a growing national consensus. It cannot be
business as usual. We need to do things differently, and
ordinary South Africans have to benefit and participate to a
greater extent. It is not just the fruits of the economy. Many
South Africans are potentially active economic citizens. They
want to contribute. They want a job. They want to add value to
the economy. They want to be entrepreneurs. However, through a
range of measures, some of which I referred to, they are
restricted. The policy framework is about opening up the
economy, making it more dynamic, making it transformative, and
ensuring that it is broad based, and all South Africans benefit.
Thank you.
Question 65:
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Speaker, competition
policy, trade, and industrial funding the areas that hon Rantho
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refers to are indeed central to our economic strategy. When
companies want to merge or acquire other companies we have
focused our efforts to ensure that we protect jobs and our
country’s industrial capacity that we promote economic
empowerment, support small businesses and open up competition in
markets. This has led to multibillion rand funds being set up by
the private sector to promote localisation and inclusion of
black suppliers in the value chains. I can point to Wallmart,
Coca-Cola and many others. We are cracking down on cartels
across the economy from fertilizers, bread, chicken, steel,
construction, Forex markets, car parts, fresh vegetables and
even bicycles. Massive fines have been levied, cartels have been
dismantled and markets have been opened for new entrance. We are
now looking at economic concentration as a further area where
the competition authorities can play a role. On trade, we have
increasingly focused on expanding economic links with the rest
of the continent. With more export of industrial products to the
rest of the continent and currently, a quarter million South
African jobs - direct jobs are supported by our trade with the
rest of Africa. A few years ago the department used the trade
directive to put in place support for local foundries and steel
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companies to have access to scrap metal that is otherwise
exported. This has saved a number of jobs and it’s a critical
part of our industrial base.
On industrial funding we have directed the Industrial
Development Corporation, IDC, to expand the level of industrial
funding that it makes available. In the previous year it had
approved R14,6 billion of new investment. This is money by the
IDC to that you need to add the investment by the private sector
counter parties. But we are forced to look at the impact of that
investment on jobs, expanding factories, building solar and wind
power plants and supporting sectors like the food and clothing
industries. In the previous year, the IDC funded black
industrialists with R2,9 billion of capital. So, out of the
R23 billion fund R2,9 billion has actually been allocated in a
12 month period to support black South Africans to make things,
grow things and to dig things. If we add all black empowered
companies we come to roughly double that sum of money.
On infrastructure the department supports the work of the
Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC, and
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works closely with the number of departments, provinces and
municipalities. Currently, more than R1 billion is invested
every working day on projects in the National Infrastructure
Plan. We have worked closely with the National Treasury over the
past few years to ensure sustainable funding streams for the
roads, the port expansion, hospitals, schools, dams, houses,
colleges and university facilities as well as the energy plants.
The increase investment in the National Infrastructure Plan has
helped to avoid recession in the South African economy at a time
when many of our peers – other countries were plunged into
recession. In each of these areas our goals is to work on
improving employment and economic opportunity and to work with
other departments and spheres of government so that we integrate
our various efforts for the benefit of our people as a whole.
Indeed, since the adoption of the new growth path in 2010 the
economy has seen 2,4 million new jobs created. Thank you.
Ms D Z RANTHO: Hon Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister
for the comprehensive reply that he has given to us.
[Interjections.] But Minister, given the centrality of the
industrialisations policy and strategy, the reality is that
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there have been serious challenges in this regard. How are we
dealing with these challenges – challenges that I think you know
and those that are coming time and again in front of you. How
are we dealing with them as a country? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: I would like to thank the
hon Rantho for her question. I would point to a few specific
things that we have done. In the National Development Plan, NDP,
one of the core ideas that have been put forward is the idea of
building the capability of the state and in the four areas that
you focussed on hon Rantho, in each of these areas we have
worked to improve the capability, the strength and the
performance of our institutions. Today the South African
Competitions Authorities are regarded as world class
institutions very often, leading the field with the
interventions and the public interest conditions that they have
put in place. The Industrial Development Corporation is Africa’s
largest and most developed financed institution. So, those are
some areas that we are working on.
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The second one is partnership with the private sector and
organised labour. If we are to crack the challenges of
employment and inclusive growth, we have to work very strongly
to build a broader social consensus and a social pact that deals
with issues of employment, investment, wages and inequalities.
In the discussions that has been held over the last year or so
with a number of CEOs of large companies and leaders of trade
union and trade union federations increasingly, we get the sense
that this perspective of that view is shared much more widely
that we need this broad integrated approach.
Thirdly, the African continent remains a critical driver of
South African development. So, we are working on getting a free
trade area that would cover 26 countries and 600 million African
consumers; and given the limitations on time I can’t go through
each of the areas that you raised hon Rantho. But, they give an
indication of the areas that we are focussing our work and there
are some great successes that we can highlight, some of which
will be done by a number of Ministers over the next few weeks in
their Budget Votes. Thank you.
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Mr P G ATKINSON: Chairperson and Minister, infrastructure
development is of utmost importance to most sectors in our
economy and in particular to job creating sectors such as
tourism and agriculture. There is a general feeling in the
private sector that the government is lagging in this regard.
Could you please be more specific about what new major
infrastructure projects are being planned and executed and
whether there will be an increased allocation towards localised
infrastructure spending going forward. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: I thank you hon Atkinson
for a comprehensive question that you have asked. If I may start
with the second part of your question, yes, indeed we see the
new traction that we can get, expanding the impact of
infrastructure spending to come principally from greater levels
of localisation. So, we have worked with National Treasury an
the Minister of Finance over the last year and a half to two
years to see what new opportunities are there to deepen
localisation of component manufacturing. In fact, recently the
Cabinet looked at the report that identified the number of
successes where we were able to do that.
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Going to the question of infrastructure and its linkage role to
key sectors of the economy; let me focus perhaps by taking
agriculture as an example of it. Agriculture requires a number
of initiatives in infrastructure if we were to unlock the
potential of small-scale farmers. They need water. So, we have
two major dams that are currently in the process of being
finalised and my colleague responsible for that will make the
announcement in due course, but you will also need the
irrigation systems that underpin that. Connected to that you
need roads that will enable small scale-farmers to get their
products to the markets. The announcement in the Medium-Term
Budget Policy statement last year by the then Minister of
Finance about investment on the N2 Wild Coast Highway is
absolutely critical because if you can bring water and roads and
some industrial development on the eastern part of the Easter
Cape, you shall have unlocked agricultural opportunities.
Obviously, the relevant Ministers will make the announcements as
soon they are ready, but we have worked hard to try and unlock
that. [Interjections]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza) Thank you, Minister!
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The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Tourism benefits
similarly, but in view of the limited time perhaps we can
privately share that information. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): You can do that during
your budget debate Minister.
Ms S J NKOMO: Hon Minister, noting that the matter of the
progress that this department has made will focus on specific
areas; I will only focus on two areas. Firstly, let me speak
about the competition policy. When one addresses the matter of
Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises, SMMEs, and takes note of
the number of people that are kept within that frame one notices
that the growth to even a larger framework takes a lot of time.
What is being done to ensure that people actually grow from
where they are now to a higher growth?
Secondly, on the IDC, especially with industrial funding; we
always hear and people are always complaining that there is so
much of funding in so many sectors but it actually never reaches
the people who need the fund. [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza) Can you please come to
your question.
Ms S J NKOMO: How much is advertised on those funding, so that
people can make use of those funds. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: On the first question
raised by the hon Nkomo, I would want to illustrate by way of an
example what the competitions authorities are doing to try to
ensure that small businesses grow. Firstly, we have launched a
market enquiry looking at the private grocery retail sector to
identify what is it that limit for example small business for
gaining access to malls. What is it that limits black South
Africans from maintaining and expanding spaza shops in
townships? So, that is one initiative. In a recent settlement
that the competitions authorities entered into with the CocaCola company, we looked at spaza shops where Coke provides this
fridges and coolers and because these are supplied by Coca-Cola,
the condition is that only Coke products can be stocked in it
and that limits the ability of the small spaza shops to grow, to
use the fridge facilities to bring in additional product and
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expand what they can offer to consumers. So, as part of this
settlement, Coca-Cola agreed that 10% of the shelf space in all
the Coca-Cola coolers and fridges would be available to
competitors at the small spaza shop owner as complete freedom in
bringing competitors in. That will affect 117 000 spaza shops.
So, those are just micro examples of how we are going about
opening this up.
On the IDC, one of the challenges the IDC has had is that demand
for both knowledge and access to the resources is great and it
has a limited number of formal offices. [Interjections.] Also
with the IDC, we have to get more road shows where it takes its
message to local communities. So, I hope hon Nkomo, you will see
more evidence of that in future.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Minister, let me start off by welcoming the
success of the Competition Commission and I think that goes a
long way in addressing the issues of radical economic
transformation. However, Minister there is some other areas that
seem to be neglected especially, where you spoke about the
supermarket chain in the grocery sector there appears to be a
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hell of a lot of collusion there including in the motor vehicle
trader. I heard in a presentation yesterday by Treasury how
government in negotiating was able to save over R200 000 on one
particular vehicle. That clearly shows how theses imperialists
are exploiting our people on the ground which is affecting
radical economic transformation. Added to that Minister, is we
talk about job creation in order to uplift the quality of life
of our people [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Can you come to your
question?
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: South Africa imports R4 billion worth of
surgical gloves and condoms. Why are we not looking at creating
an industry in this regard, so that we could self sufficient and
possibly export as well? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can I advice
you that don’t give long preambles to your question because by
the time you come to the question your time is up.
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The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT: Hon Shaik Emam, I think
the point about the role of the Competition Commission and the
authorities as a whole is well taken. Thank you for that. There
are few things that we can do through competition but there are
other things that we will have to do by building the capacity
elsewhere in the state. The fact that the state overpays as
grossly as the example that you have given and I dare say that
it is not an isolated example, means that we have got to ensure
much stronger procurement capabilities so that we in fact get
some leverage from the enormous buying power of the state both
developmental leverage to promote developmental goals as well as
price leverage to bring down the price so that the tax payer and
the South African citizen gets value for money. But the second
part is to ensure that entrepreneurs step forward that there are
in fact people who want to make surgical gloves and condoms. So,
whatever the example is and they have good business plans we can
try to help them to glean the business plans up and that they
put up credible proposals to development finance institutions.
We are working now. Minister Zulu has put a lot of effort in
trying to ensure that the Small Enterprise Development Agency,
Seda, and Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, can help small
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businesses to develop exactly those businesses plans. That is
what is required so that we can use the combination of measures,
competition, industrial funding and other measures to be able to
drive the economy; improve the efficiency; expand jobs and
promote development. Thank you.
Question 30:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, the former Minister of
Finance announced in the Budget Speech on 24 February 2016 that
he, together with the Minister of Public Enterprises had agreed
“to explore the possible merger of South African Airways, SAA,
and the South African Express under a strengthened board, with a
view to engage a potential minority equity partner and to create
a bigger and more efficient airline”. National Treasury and the
Department of Public Enterprises jointly adjudicated the bids
received, in response to the tender that had been issued.
Subsequently, government appointed Bain and Company South Africa
and Abacus Advisory to assist government in undertaking a
comprehensive assessment of all options before reaching a final
decision on the optimal ownership and corporate structure of the
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state-owned airlines. The work is complete and the next step is
for government to review the options and recommendations to
allow an informed decision to be taken on how to proceed,
including alignment with the review currently underway on SAA’s
long-term turnaround strategy by Seabury.
The review by government will determine whether strategic equity
partners, if any, would become part of the ownership structure
of the state-owned airline assets.
IsiZulu:
Mnu R A LEES: Kodwa ngiyalithanda lelo gama. Ningasabi
ningalisebenzisa.
English:
Hon Minister, I am not sure why I have the honour of asking you
your first oral question in Parliament in your new capacity.
Indeed, it is an honour. The question of SAA is a vexed one and
it continues to trade at massive losses. The current year is
looking at R4,5 billion. Just to continue trading, it looks like
SAA is going to need additional guarantees. The Minister has
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just said that the private equity partner may not come to
fruition. What this would then require is either additional
guarantees or a capital injection. What is the Minister’s view
about the state and the taxpayer having to, yet again, bail out
SAA?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, hon Mazambane. Chairperson,
the statement by the former Minister of Finance on budget day in
2016 indicated clearly that the decision on whether there would
be a private equity partner was still going to be determined. In
actual fact, the budget statement referred to a strategic equity
partner, not necessarily private or public. Therefore, we should
not be presumptuous to arrive at a conclusion that the strategic
equity partner would of necessity, be private.
However, the issue that the hon member raises of continuous
losses at SAA and the need to address the balance sheet of the
airline and bring it back to help is quite important. The
department, working with all the relevant stakeholders, is
paying attention to this on a daily basis, so that we can deal
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with governance issues, bring the airline back to financial help
and ensure that we turn it around and make it sustainable.
Those plans will continue to be unveiled as we go about them.
There is no single solution or a magic wand that can be used to
resolve the challenges that the airline is facing. Thank you.
Ms N V MENTE: Chair, Minister, I am glad that you are saying
that there is no single solution that will resolve the issue of
finances within SAA and SA Express. I want to put it to you that
privatisation is not a solution to that. The radical economic
transformation should not even indicate to you that you must
privatise the airlines in South Africa because that is no way to
create jobs and to boost the economy of this country. Now, as
the Minister here today, considering the reports of the bids
that you have received according to the tender that was issued
by the previous Minister, are you privatising or not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, hon member, as my
response indicated, we must review the bids that were presented
and receive the recommendations from Seabury and other partners
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that are involved in assessing the challenges at SAA. Once that
has happened, we will then make a decision on how we will move
forward. As I indicated in my statement, it has not been
determined whether the minority equity partner would be public
or private. There are also options available for the minority
equity partner to be a public entity, but that decision has not
yet been made and we will make it at the relevant time. Thank
you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, whilst you are
working on the issue of whether to get an equity partner or not,
SAA continues to lose money, as you have correctly pointed out.
One of the things that need to happen is to rationalise the
operations of SAA, looking at the routes of SAA. For example,
why is there not a SAA flight between Durban and Cape Town,
giving British Airways, BA, a monopoly of that route with about
nine flights per day? We need to then look across the spectrum,
drop the unprofitable routes and begin to prioritise routes
where SAA can make money. Of cause, that goes with the merger of
SAA, SA Express and Mango. Whilst you are dealing with the
equity partner, what other interventions are in place that are
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practical, sustainable and not just injecting money and giving
guarantees? What other interventions are in place that give SAA
the ability to be independent and progressive, particularly
around the issues of rerouting and the mergers that I have
highlighted.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, the issue of rationalising
the operations of SAA has been ongoing and one of the measures
undertaken has involved implementing cost-cutting measures so
that the airline can save on some of its operational spending
and use that to invest in infrastructure and other strategic
operations.
The issue of rationalising the routes is part of the long-term
turnaround strategy. It will be considered, including domestic,
international and regional routes as well as the issue of the
cost of fuel, how it procures its fuel and many other items that
form part of that long-term turnaround strategy.
There is a process underway by Seabury to review the long-term
turnaround strategy. The conclusion of that will assist us to
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take decisions about the strategic issues in the airline.
Meanwhile, we are paying attention to issues of governance,
continuing to implement operational rationalisation and other
measures that will ensure that the airline remains afloat. Thank
you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson, Minister, I also wanted to
harp on the same issue that the limitation of the routes for the
SAA is creating a lot of problems. Over and above that, in
trying to ensure that black people, in particular, get
opportunities within SAA, would you, in the foreseeable future
tell us who are really doing the work within the SAA? While you
are still talking about problems and the long-term turnaround
strategy, we need to know who is doing what within the SAA. We
need to know who is getting the jobs within the company as such.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Khubisa, indeed, that information
can be made available upon request because it relates to the
operations of the airline and it is information that can be
available, provided, of cause, it does not cause problems with
regard to competition in the airline and other factors. Let me
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say, the rationalisation of the routes of the airline will be
finalised in the long term, once we rationalise our airline
assets. It is therefore important for us to address the issue of
the mergers of this airline so that we can decide which airline
is going to fly on what route, be it international, regional or
even domestic. Thank you.
Question 70:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, as you are aware that
the Tax Ombud has been tasked with reviewing the alleged
prevalent undue delay by the SA Revenue Service in paying out
funds. As such I am informed that two meetings have been held
between Sars and the ombud and that data has been provided to
the ombud to facilitate their investigation. At this stage it
will therefore be premature to comment on any findings in this
regard.
I do, however, want to give the assurance that Sars is committed
to facilitating all refunds that are due as expeditiously as
possible. However, it must be noted that the refund process is
subject to certain compliance interventions and follows a
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standardised process in line with legislation. These steps
include but are not limited to: A declaration by a taxpayer is
subjected to an automated risk mitigation system; a declaration
is reviewed where risks are identified or refunds are released
within 48 hours where no risk is identified and when there are
no outstanding returns or debts.
Where risk is identified a generic request for information from
clients in support of their declaration is sent to the taxpayer.
These requests are made in writing to taxpayer’s e-filling
account or registered address. Evaluation of the data by Sars in
support of the declaration is conducted and requests for further
specific supporting documentation is sent to the taxpayer where
deemed necessary by the auditor. If required, an adjustment is
made to the assessment. All these reviews are conducted based on
the risks identified by the system and all procedures and
legislation is adhered to at all times in dealing with
identified cases. Thank you.
Ms M N S MANANA: Chairperson, Minister, thank you for your
reply. Given the multiple reasons of the situation, would the
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Minister in consultation with the Sars commissioner be
suggesting any systemic change to what currently exists?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon Manana, there has been
a process of restructuring that has taken place at Sars with the
intention to improve their systems and ensure efficiency in how
they conduct their business. It is important for us to
understand that at times, it may not be easy or even possible
for a quick turnaround time in terms of claims because a whole
range of document assessment will have to be undertaken but we
are committed to continuing improving the efficiency of the SA
Revenue Service as one of the flagship projects that we have as
a country in relation to many other countries that are failing
to perform at the level at which we are. Thank you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, rest assured Mr Gigaba we are not
going to ask you about Buhle because ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order!
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... that is possibly a cheap question. Cheaper
than the monies that you have been given here. I want to ask a
question which we asked yesterday about the bulkanisation of the
revenue collector. On Thursday ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order, order hon members!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... hon Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T DIDIZA): Order hon members, I have
already called for order on that issue, let us allow the member
to ask a question.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, in overall terms Sars collects around
R1.3 trillion and it pays back in terms of tax repayments about
R222 billion. Now, the Border Management Authority Bill which he
was championing when he was the Minister of Home Affairs, will
ultimately bulkanise and undermine the status of Sars as the
sole revenue collector in South Africa. We asked a question
yesterday and I think that he was given a nuance approach and
response. We want him to assure South Africa whether we are
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still going to have one revenue collector in South Africa
despite some of the attempts to try to bulkanise and fragment
revenue collection. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon Shivambu, there is no
attempt to bulkanise the revenue service and there is absolutely
no attempt to create parallel revenue collection services in the
country. The SA Revenue Service and the National Revenue Account
remain as the singular authorities responsible for revenue
collection. The Border Management Authority is going to focus
on, as the name says, border management. Thank you.
Mr M HLENGWA: Chairperson, hon Minister, one thing which the tax
collectors are very good at is to actually collect. It is good
when money comes in, they are effective and efficient in that
regard but when they actually need to give back what they need
to give back the process is slow, tedious and tiresome much to
the anxiety in those of the receiving end. It is a big brother
small brother syndrome and that is where the problem lies in
improving the efficiencies in a manner which does not jeopardise
the smaller brother.
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Minister, the question is that what consequence management is
going to be instituted to ensure that those responsible for
these delays are taken to tasks so that accountability can
actually come to life through concrete steps of action as
opposed to just papering over these kinds of behaviours because
at the end of the day it is the ordinary man in the street who
is at the receiving end of these things.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEZIMALI: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Hlengwa,
umhlonishwa uyazi naye ukuthi uma umuntu ekupha imali kumnandi
kodwa uma sekumele ukuthi uyibuyisele emuva ...
English:
... that process becomes painful. [Laughter.] But on a more
serious note, hon Chairperson, the department continues to work
with Sars to ensure that Sars operates efficiently and addresses
the needs of its clients in a manner that is conducive to that
partnership remaining strong and in good health. We shouldn’t
presuppose that the instances where there has been delays in
relation to the repayment of people who deserve to be repaid are
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largely prevalent to the extent that they exist. We are paying
attention to those improving the systems and ensuring that
through the systems and the institution there is necessary
consequence management. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Mnu R A LEES: Nginenhlanhla ngoba ngikhuluma kabili namhlanje.
[Uhleko.]
English:
Hon Minister, you talk about the risk engine identifying the
risk and then generic letters sent out to e-filling. Minister, I
wish you could read those letters, they are completely
unintelligible. You have no idea what is being asked of you, so
they are really not good. Minister, you also talk about the long
delays not being prevalent, I put it to you that in fact they
are prevalent. There are multitudes of complaints and that is
why we asked for the ombud to consider that. I will give you
just one example, a vendor over the last 22 vat periods has been
auditored 13 times, that is 13 out of 22. The average it has
taken for the refunds to be paid is 44 days and it has been as
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high as 104 days. Minister, would you agree that Sars is not
performing adequately with regard to the vat refund and if you
disagree how do you explain the high level of delays?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEZIMALI: Mhlonishwa Lees, okokuqala
masikugcizelele ukuthi i-Sars iyawenza umsebenzi wayo ngendlela
efanelekile ngoba lokho kuyabonakala kwinani lentela
esilamukelayo njengohulumeni minyaka yonke ukuthi liyaqhubeka
ukweva kuma-trillion amarandi ngisho ngabe isimo somnotho
singekho sihle. Lokho kubonakalisa ukuthi inhlangano ye-Sars
isebenza ngendlela efanelekile. Uma uqhathanisa i-Sars nezinye
izinhlangano, ngisho izinhlangano eziqoqa intela emazweni
athuthuke kakhulu ukwedlula thina, i-Sars ibonakala isebenza
ngendlela efanelekile futhi ifinyelela kubantu abaningi kunalabo
ezinye izinhlangano ezinjengayo zifinyelela khona. La e-Afrika,
i-Sars iyona ehamba phambili ekuqoqweni kwezintela kanye
nasekwenzeni isiqinisekiso sokuthi isabelo sezimali sezwe
lakithi sincike kakhulu emsebenzini omuhle owenziwa yi-Sars.
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Uma kukhona izinselela ezifana nalezi umhlonishwa akhuluma ngazo
yizo lezi esithi njengoba sekuchaziwe ukuthi kuya kwaba
nomhlangano phakathi kwe-Sars no-ombud lapho bedingide khona
baphinde bacubungula lolu hlelo ngendlela enzulu. Sizokwazi-ke
ukuthi uma sesiwuthola lowo mbiko sazi ukuthi yiziphi
izinyathelo ezinqala ekumele sizithathe ukuze sithuthukise
indlela okusetshenzwa ngayo ukubuyiselwa kwabantu izimali zabo
ngoba nathi kuyasikhathaza, ikakhulukazi uma osomabhizinisi
bengazitholi izimali abazidingayo kanye nabanye abantu abakhokha
intela. Ukuze abantu baqhubeke ngokukhokha intela ngendlela
efanelekile kumele i-Sars isebenze ngendlela ezokwenza ukuthi
okokuqala izimali zabo ziphathwe kahle. Okwesibili, bakwazi
ukuthi izimali ekumele zibuyele ebantwini zibuyele kubo
ngendlela efanelekile. Ngakho-ke nathi lokho kuyasikhathaza
futhi sizimisele ukuthi sikuxazilule ukuze bonke abantu
bagquliseke. Siyabonga.
Question 26:
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chairperson, the official trip to
the United States in April 2017, was not a road show. We went to
attend the Annual and Spring Meetings of the World Bank and the
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International Monetary Fund, IMF. As such, we did not make any
invitations to any people or groups to join us. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngiyathokoza ukucosha ithuba mhlonishwa Sihlalo.
Mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe...
English:
...the Federation of Unions of South Africa, Fedusa, for an
example, is on public record to say that they refused to
participate in what you called now not a road show or what ever
it is. Others may call it a junket if you want, but that trip.
Now, be that as it may, whether they were invited or not, the
perception that key strategic players in the financial sector in
the country who must assist you turn things around particularly
the added pressures in which you confronted when you assumed
office: Do you think it is in the interest of progress to have
such statements made and if so, what are you doing to allay the
anxieties of those players such as Fedusa so that you can be
able to cultivate a working relationship with them, because for
your trip to be marred by a cloud of such utterances is a cause
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for concern. Something needs to be done to salvage the
relationship. As such invite or no invite; that remains a
problem if the people whom you work with, find themselves
wanting to distance themselves from you.
IsiZulu:
Ngakho ke siyafisa ukwazi ukuthi leso simo ngoba umnotho
uyantengantenga sizolungiswa kanjani ukuze nabo bazizwe bayi
ngxenye yoku xazululwa kwale nhlekelele ebhekene nomnotho
waseNingizimu Afrika.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair and hon Hlengwa, it is
important at this stage at which we are, for us to continue
cultivating strong strategic partnerships with business, labour
and other social partners. We are committed to ensuring that. We
have been engaging with various stakeholders at different levels
to restore our relationship with them to boost those strategic
partnerships with them and ensure that we can continue working
together to address the challenges faced by the South African
economy.
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It is my considered view that even if the economy was growing at
5% or more and we had restored our investment grade, we would
need to continue to cultivate such strong partnerships with
different social partners for the good of the economy and
country and so it is important for us that we should welcome the
commitment by various social partners to work with us in
addressing these challenges.
The commitment by business, labour and social partners is
welcomed. But I also want to state it categorically clear; it is
absolutely untrue that they were invited on this trip and that
they declined participating in the trip. The trip as I say, was
to attend the IMF and the World Bank Annual Spring Meetings and
the delegation to those meetings, is a delegation of the
National Treasury led by the Minister of Finance. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members. Hon
Shivambu. Order hon Shivambu, are you taking a question or not?
Ms H O HLOPHE: Madam Chair and hon Minister, was it necessary to
take your wife along and was it a common practice with the
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previous Ministers to take their wives along? Did she attend any
official meeting? If she did, what value did she bring to the
people of South Africa, because this is the taxpayers money? The
previous Minister had pronounced on the cost-cutting measures to
the overseas trips, so where is your wisdom on that one? Thank
you.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair, my wife did not attend any
official meeting any where. Thank you, very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members. Order!
Hon members, in respect of procedures - order - hon members, can
I please clarify this. In respect of travel arrangements by
Ministers with respect of their work, that is covered in the
ministerial handbook. But also, I would ask - no hon member - I
hear he has answered the question and I was just helping to
clarify for members in respect of the procedures. Hon Hlophe,
are you rising on the point of order Ma’am?
Ms H O HLOPHE: Yes Chair.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes.
Ms H O HLOPHE: The hon Minister did not respond to my question
of saying where the wisdom is because the previous Ministers
have pronounced on cost-cutting measures of international trips.
So when the Minister is taking his wife to take selfies on those
trips, so, where is the wisdom on that? This is our taxpayers’
money Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Maynier.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Singh, do you have a
point of order?
Mr N SINGH: Yes, hon Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, go ahead.
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Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, my point of order is: The exchanges
from that side of the House and this side of the House of
members do not do augurs well as an institution.
[Interjections.] We want to hear the responses by the Minister
and all members. So, if you kindly exercise order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you. Order hon
members! We do request members to be in order, as they exchange
views. We always try and intervene to make sure that the rules
of the debate are adhered to and indeed we can appeal to
members. Order! Hon members, can we please be in order and allow
the House to proceed. Hon Whips of both the ANC as well as the
EFF, can you please talk to your members, so that they are in
order.
Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you
please take your seat, I am still addressing this House.
[Interjections.]
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Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Chairperson, I am just trying to assist you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, order, can
you please take your seat. I am addressing the House.
[Interjections.]
Mr M S MBATHA: There is one person who is causing havoc. She is
Lindiwe and you must deal with her. That is Lindiwe. Deal with
her!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I have asked
the Whips of both the EFF and the ANC to address the issues. Hon
members, can we please not degenerate the House. Order hon
Minister. Can we please allow the Whips to talk to both of you
and if you have issues, please do address them outside of this
House. Hon Whips of the ANC and hon Whips of the EFF, can you
please talk to your members. Hon Shivambu, what is your point of
order?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, the deputy secretary general, DSG, of
the EFF asked a relevant question about a Minister of Finance
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who must be responsible for cost-cutting measures and the
Minister deliberately ignored that. It is a fair question that
must be responded to. To say that, from the beginning, you are
already disregarding one of the most fundamental principles of
running the National Treasury. What are you doing with regards
to cost-cutting measures is it wise? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: So that we know that our monies are safe!
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order. Hon member, can
you please take your seat. Can you please take your seat. Hon
members, order! When a question is asked to the members of the
executive, they will answer the question. As they have done so,
it may not be the way you want the question to be answered. But
the question has been answered. And I think we need to
appreciate that. If there is further concern, we know there are
processes to be followed of how that needs to be done to deal
with issues in the House. Hon Maynier.
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Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the fact is that if we marketed the
hon Malusi Gigaba, the tagline would be “Malusi Gigaba downgrade
guaranteed”. [Interjections.] Because the real question is not
who refused to accompany the Minister, the real question is who
actually accompanied the Minister. [Interjections.]
Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Because you see... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon member, there
is a point of order.
Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Mnganga-Gcabashe.
Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: Hon Chair, we request that the member
refer to the Minister as the hon Minister or Minister Gigaba.
Thanks.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member, hon
Maynier, can you please address the Minister appropriately
either as hon or Mr.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Hon Chair, I will do so. Chairperson the real
question is who accompanied the Minister? You see because the
Minister was accompanied by his economic advisor whose mad ideas
would turn South Africa into Venezuela. And this on an
international investor road show designed to restore confidence
amongst investors in South Africa. The madness has to stop and
so my question to the Minister is: Will you fire your economic
advisor and if you will not fire your economic advisor, why will
you not fire him? Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member your
time has expired. Hon Minister. Order. Hon member, can we allow
the Minister to respond to the question.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair, the hon member has asked me
this question as question... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Twenty six.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: ...as question twenty six and I will
respond to the question at that moment. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: On point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order. The hon Chief Whip
of the Opposition.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, my point of
order is: If Ministers are accountable to this Parliament and
have to answer the questions put to them. We are not going to
get to that question on the Order Paper; the Minister knows that
full well. What he is trying to do here is dodge questions on
his first outing. What a shame! [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member
Steenhuisen, indeed as we all know, in terms of our rules, Rule
142(6) a supplementary question must arise directly from the
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original question and the reply given thereto and may not
constitute a new question.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, may I
address you please, in terms of the same rule, Rule 146?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, you can.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The original question was with
regards to his road show trip to the United States. Who did he
invite to join him on the trip and what are the reasons cited by
those who decided not to honour his invitation? Hon Maynier’s
question is completely germane to section a of that particular
question. The Minister is been asked a question and he must
answer the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, the Minister
has said in his listening to the question of the hon member, it
links directly to the other question and you are right to say,
maybe, that question may not be there at the time for him to
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answer, but it does not mean we can then substitute it on this
question.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, with
respect.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I think that you cannot
anticipate what is going to happen later down the Order Paper. A
direct question that is germane to the question that was put to
the Minister is not a new question; it relates to who did he
invite to join him on the trip? We all know that mad Malikane
joined them on the trip and the Minister therefore must account
for why he went there. I do not think Madam House Chair it helps
when a Minister is being protected like this on his first
outing. Let us hear from him. If he is proud of mad Malikane, he
must tell this House. Let him defend him. But he cannot be
protected by the presiding officers from answering questions put
to him.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member, let us
take Rule 143 which deals with replies to questions for oral
replies which have not been reached at the end of the time
allotted on the question day must be submitted in writing. So,
if the view is that that question is a burning question, we may
not reach it in terms of the oral replies, surely the hon
Minister will respond at the time. Hon Kubayi.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, if I may
... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Thank you very much, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, if you can
take your seat, another member has raised a point of order.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: House Chair, I think firstly, in terms
of the rules, rule of anticipation, the matter is before the
House and therefore the member must wait for it. That is the
first thing. Secondly...
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[Interjections.]
No it appears. It applies hon members. You cannot want to say
when a matter is before the House - the hon Minister is saying
the question is there and he is going to respond to it. If the
hon member thinks that the question is not going to be responded
to, as he is saying the Minister should not anticipate what is
going to happen in the House. Therefore he cannot want to
anticipate. However, secondly, the hon Steenhuisen has just
called another person a mad person. Surely, we cannot do that as
Members of Parliament.
[Interjections.]
No! Colleagues decorum applies to everybody. We have to conduct
ourselves in such a manner that we are respected as members. Now
to also call people who are not here to defend themselves with
names and call them mad is wrong. It is just morally bankrupt.
We cannot do that.
[Interjections.]
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He is not here to defend himself.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon Minister.
Hon Steenhuisen. The direct question that was asked by hon
Maynier is indeed in the Question Paper. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But you cannot let them choose
when to answer the question. It is wrong.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The Minister did answer
and indicated when he will answer it.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: He cannot either.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Do you want the Minister
to repeat what he said? Hon Minister, I do not think they heard
your answer. I do not think they heard your answer to the
question. Can you please answer hon Maynier again in the way you
answered?
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair, I indicated that the
question Mr Maynier was now bringing forward appears on the
Order Paper as Question 33 and I will respond to that question
and address all of his concerns. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you. Hon
Steenhuisen, I asked the Minister deliberately, for I think
there might have been confusion as to what he said. I said so
because he did not refuse to answer the question. However, he
said the question is on the Order Paper as Question 33 and he
will answer it then. So, it was not a protection of the Minister
not to answer the question, but rather the Minister in his
response adequately said he will deal with it, there because the
question is already on the Order Paper.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, with
respect.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes.
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I do not think the executive
should be allowed to choose when and how they answer questions.
[Applause.] We have rules in this House; the hon member is
within the rules to put that question and he has put it in terms
of the rules. What you are doing is allowing members of the
executive to pick and choose how and when they answer questions.
Who is actually accountable to this House? It seems to me, we
are accountable to the Minister, not the other way around. This
is wrong and is a bad precedent, it has never happened before
and I think we are going down a very bad path if we are going to
allow members of the executive to do this. The Minister has a
valid question put to him and he must answer it. He cannot
choose when he answers it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order. Hon members, once
again, there is nothing in the way in which the presiding
officers have dealt with matters that suggest any protection of
the executive from answering questions. The question was put and
the Minister responded.
[Interjections.]
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No. Hon members I do not think we are correct to say what we are
saying even though not given an opportunity to do so. He said, I
will answer the question where it arises. Hon member, can we
please not go back and forth on this question and I will rule
that we proceed. If there are issues that we think we need to
address in terms of the rules and how one has presided, I will
ask us to do it another time. For now, I actually close this
matter and I proceed. [Applause.]
Mr M WATERS: Hon Chair, on a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes hon member, what is
your point of order?
Mr M WATERS: I have not spoken on this matter.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, you can.
Mr M WATERS. Thank you very much. Chair, if you look at Question
33 and I hope I can find it now. The question relates to whether
the Minister has taken any steps to ensure that his economic
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advisor does not make any more public statements that are
contrary to the government’s economic policy? Right and nothing
about the overseas trip. Then if you look at the question that
was asked - where are we - it is about the road show. Now the
question the hon Maynier asked is: Why the Minister’s economic
advisor went on the road show given his utterances in the public
and undermining the government’s financial policy? That is the
first thing.
Secondly, if there were two similar questions Chair, the
questions author should have brought it to the attention of the
two members that are the authors of those questions to get
clarity to ensure that this particular situation did not occur,
in the first place. Right. That is the second point.
My third point and the most important is, this book here the
Constitution, says that the Minister is accountable to this
House not the other way around and we have an obligation and the
Minister have the obligation and duty to be accountable to this
House. So, I put it to you Chair, based on those three facts
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that the Minister must be asked to answer the question properly.
Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, with due
respect, having listened to you as I indicated; if there is any
airing in the manner in which this question has been handled I
would suggest that the parties concerned write to the Speaker
and to the rules and we can then deal with it then. But for now,
can we proceed. Can we move to the next question, which is
Question 68.
[Interjections.]
Sorry, there is one more supplementary question for Mr Khubisa.
Hon Khubisa.
Prof N M KHUBISA: House Chairperson and hon Minister, before you
went to the United States of America and I heard you saying that
it was not a road show, but it was just attending a conference;
you held some meetings with some stakeholders and by that time
it was reported in the media that you were aware that we have
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been downgraded to junk status, but you had to hold that
information, because it was deemed confidential. That is what
was reported. Now, who did you meet within the business sector
and what is it that they added. Was it adding value and what
advise did you get with regards to precarious situation and the
crisis that we find ourselves in? Do you think that those
meetings will help you in the long run? Thank you, very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Minister.
[Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Usolwazi N M KHUBISA: Bathi ngithanda izindaba, Sihlalo, kodwa
kwakutholakala ezindabeni lokho.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The time is up and I
think the other issues can be dealt outside, because they are
not part of the discussion in the House. Hon Minister.
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The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Hon Chair and hon Prof, we met with
various business stakeholders in the country. We had meetings
with Business Unit South Africa, Busa, we had meetings at
National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, we had
meetings with the banking association of South Africa the chief
executive officers, CEOs, of the six largest banks in the
country. We also held meetings both in Cape Town and
Johannesburg with domestic investors who hold 60% of South
African bonds and the issues that they raised with us, addressed
themselves primarily to concerns about whether we will achieve
growth and inclusive growth in particular, whether as government
are taking all the necessary steps to ensure that we avoid any
further downgrade and work towards restoring our investment
grade and whether we were going to address some of the issues
that are regarded by investors as policy uncertainties and what
steps are we taking to build business and investor confidence.
Both the meetings we undertook in the country, as well as the
meetings with the ratings agencies in Washington and with some
of the bond investors in Washington and New York City as well as
Boston, addressed all of those issues and we think that they
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added value to the extent that they drew our attention on the
issues which are urgent that we need to pay attention to, in
order to address the economic situation in the country. But most
importantly, we have to apply ourselves with a singular
mindedness towards boosting economic growth, on diversifying the
South African economy and ensuring that we reduce our public
debt and our reliance on commodity exports and in the cause of
that, address issues of inclusion while bringing on board both
in terms of business economic empowerment and job creation those
among our people who remain marginalised in the economy. Thank
you.
Question 68:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Thank you. Indeed,
a meeting of Basic countries was held on the 10th and 11th in
China. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, this
is the Deputy Minister of Environmental Affairs. Deputy
Minister, continue. Deputy Minister, can you continue?
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: A key outcome of
the meeting was the reaffirmation by Basic countries of their
commitment to the recent Paris Agreement under the UN Framework
Convention on Climate Change.
All Basic countries ... and perhaps it is important to say which
are the countries that belong to Basic. [Interjections.] It’s
Brazil, South Africa, India and China.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members.
[Interjections.] Order hon members. Please continue hon Deputy
Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: This is a further
demonstration of leadership by Basic countries ...
[Interjections.] ... in the fight against ... [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members!
Order! [Interjections.] Hon members on my left, there is a
Question that has been asked and the Deputy Minister is
responding to that Question. If you follow the Question on the
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Question Paper you will understand what the Deputy Minister is
saying. Continue Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: The Paris ...
[Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue hon Deputy
Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: The Paris
Agreement was a hard-won achievement by the international
community which seeks to strengthen the global response to
climate change in the context of sustainable development. The
Paris Agreement framework provides a direction of travel to all
countries and sectors of the economy in fighting climate change.
The meeting also sought to communicate clearly that this fight
against climate change is a global effort. The Paris Agreement
began an irreversible process and efforts resulting from it
should not be postponed. This message was necessary in the light
of recent global developments.
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The meeting also urged all signatories to the Paris Agreement to
stay the course and maintain their support for the Paris
Agreement for the good of all humankind and future generations
to come.
South Africa can only make significant progress through working
together with fellow Basic countries in the formulation of
policies and measures, and their implementation, as well as
other countries. To this end, the meeting indicated Basic
countries’ willingness to work together with all other countries
to promote low greenhouse gas emissions, climate resilience and
sustainable development.
The meeting also expressed a view that when implementing the
Paris Agreement parties should exchange their best practices and
co-operate to enhance actions progressively. South Africa stands
to benefit significantly from the sharing of experiences and
lessons learnt. This will enhance the implementation of South
Africa’s National Climate Change Response policy and other
relevant policies necessary for a just transition to a low
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greenhouse gas economy and climate resilient South Africa as
enshrined in the National Development Plan.
Just to add; this initiative by these Basic countries is
actually an extra mile that they have taken in order to enhance
the Paris Agreement.
Mr Z S MAKHUBELE: Hon House Chair, thanks a lot for the
opportunity. Hon Deputy Minister, we understand that South
Africa is preparing itself to fully implement the Paris
Agreement and the Marrakech outcomes. Having ratified the Paris
Agreement on 1 November 2016, what strategic steps have we
therefore taken in this regard thus far and what does this mean
for the most vulnerable in terms of the impact of climate change
in rural parts of South Africa? What assurances would the
Ministry like us to give to those in the remote parts of our
country who experience resource scarcity as a result of climate
change on a daily basis? I do appreciate the response given.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Thank you House
Chair and thank you to hon Makhubele for the follow up Question.
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Yes indeed, as South Africa we have ratified the Paris Agreement
and that ratification is already a step in the right direction.
In addition, one other key step would be increased support for
developing countries by developed countries because we would
know that as a developing country we would need technical
expertise. We would also need assistance with regard to
financial support. We would also need assistance in terms of
capacity-building. Just to say that after all, developing
countries have a duty to make sure that developed countries are
assisted, more especially with them being the key polluters.
The second one would be to encourage collaborative efforts by
all parties. Another such step is the very effort that I’ve
mentioned before, which is the effort of Basic countries coming
up with this added benefit, other than the signing of the Paris
Agreement.
On the issue of assuring communities, as government we are
committed to cushioning all communities which is affected by
climate change, firstly by ... [Time expired.]
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Mr R K PURDON: Thank you House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, a
report released in 2014 by the environmental justice advocacy
group, groundWork, calculated that granting Eskom’s application
for the postponement of carbon emission reduction targets would
result in about 20 000 premature deaths.
In light of this damning revelation and the country’s
commitments to the Paris Agreement, is the Minister prepared to
give a further postponement to Eskom in order to comply with
2020 standards?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Chair, in light of
the fact that as a country we have committed ourselves to this
Paris Agreement, I don’t think it would make sense or justice to
the signing of the Paris Agreement. We would want those who are
responsible for the promotion of greenhouse gases to be held
accountable. So, in my or in the government’s view I don’t think
we would then try to exempt Eskom from the necessary steps that
should be taken. Thank you.
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Mr N SINGH: Thank you hon Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister, I
think it was a significant step when this House unanimously
agreed that we sign the Paris Agreement. The Paris Agreement,
amongst other things, commits member countries to the pursuit of
renewable clean sources of energy. That’s one of the objectives.
Now, with the global ... [Inaudible.] ...
market growing
considerably, this is a viable energy option to fossil and
nuclear energy.
Why then is South Africa firmly rooted to the unaffordable
nuclear option for energy generation and how do we reconcile
this position with our undertakings in terms of the Paris
Agreement?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Thank you Chair.
Hon Singh, you have just mentioned the issue of renewable energy
and I want to say that nuclear is renewable energy. It is indeed
renewable energy. So why should we then exempt it from the rest
of the energy mix? I don’t think that is correct. It is just
that we may not feel comfortable with it but it does fall under
the energy mix. [Interjections.]
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Mr Z R XALISA: Thank you Chair. Deputy Minister, the
implementation of the Paris Agreement and any other
international commitments to climate change will require tough
action to be taken domestically. As things stand, South Africa
is amongst the highest emitters of greenhouse gases in the
developing world. Our intended nationally determined
contributions prepared for the Cop21 talks indicated that our
greenhouse emissions will peak between 2020 and 2025, and
thereafter reduce dramatically.
What specific action has your department undertaken to ensure
that this becomes a reality?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Thank you Chair.
Again, as I have said previously, the Paris Agreement means that
we have committed ourselves to the reduction of greenhouse
gases. All that I have outlined before are all the steps that we
have taken as a department. I don’t think we are out of order.
We are in order in terms of making sure that ... Yes, we are
amongst the high emitters as you have said, but we are now tied
down by the Paris Agreement. We will have to stick to that, and
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all other initiatives that we do will work towards making sure
that we do lessen greenhouse gas emissions.
Question 72:
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZABASEBENZI: Sihlalo weNdlu, i-Productivity SA
ikwazile ukuhlenga [save] imisebenzi yabasebenzi abangu-14 900
ngokohlelo olusha lwesixazululo [turnaround solution] lwabo.
Imikhakha[sectors] ...
English:
... that predominantly benefitted from the interventions are
the agricultural sector, civil and construction, manufacturing,
services and engineering. And ...
IsiZulu:
... lokhu kungenelelwa [interventions] kwenziwe ngo-2014-15
nango 2015-16 kanye no-2016-17. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.
Ms F S LOLIWE: Hon Chair, hon Minister, Productivity SA does not
have offices in all provinces, how does the department ensure
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that its service reaches and benefits all the provinces? Thank
you.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZABASEBENZI: Sihlalo, ngibonge umhlonishwa
uLoliwe, singuMnyango Wezabasebenzi sisungule [established]
izinhlaka zezifunda [regional structures] okuyizona ezizokwazisa
izinkampani lezo ezisenkingeni ukuthi zingatholakala [access]
kanjani ukuze zithole ukusizakala kulolu hlelo lwe-Productivity
SA kanti futhi ngokukazwelonke ibhodi[board] le-Productivity SA
lizohamba likhangisa nalo ngokwalo ukuze icacisele izwe lonke
ukuthi lolu hlelo lusebenza kanjani. Ngakho [So] asikho
isifundazwe [province] ezoba nenkinga ukuthola imininingwane
[information] nanokuthola ukusizakala eduzane. Angibonge
Sihlalo.
Mr I N OLLIS: Chairperson, Minister, Productivity SA had their
funding cut for many months in the past financial year by the
Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF and by your department and they
had to shut down programmes and were unable to carry out much of
their job saving work and improving productivity in South Africa
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because their funding was cut, in fact, according to their
report in our committee only R95 million of their budget of
R191 million was actually received by Productivity SA. Minister,
how many jobs were lost that could have been saved if your
department had actually given them their money?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZABASEBENZI: Sihlalo, mhlawube umhlonishwa
okokuqala kuzofanele akwazi ukuthi i-UIF iyidlulisa kanjani
imali [transfers] iye kwi-Productivity SA. Umthetho uthi
kuyofanele ukuthi bakwazi ukusebenzisa [spend] leyomali esuke
idlulisiwe ngaphambi [before] bathole enye ingxenye ekufanele
siyise kubo. Ngesizathu sokuthi umthetho awuvumi ukuthi
bazongele [savings], uma [if] kuwukuthi bathole inzuzo [profit]
...
English:
... that profit must be transferred back to the UIF. So we have
agreed that we are going to pay them according to the programme
that will be submitted to the Unemployment Insurance Fund. Thank
you, Chairperson.
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Mr N S MATIASE: Chair, South Africa has potential for export-led
economic growth however our government is not maximising on this
potential. The major challenge in this country is that South
African productivity has gone up and the production of goods and
services has also risen as a result of an import-dependent
economy; and if we hope that we will be able to improve the
productivity of the country whilst our economy is importdependent, how can we expect that there will be jobs security,
there will be improvement of creating more jobs and ensure that
the level of the country’s productivity is improved?
Because we felt that maximising on our potential for export-led
economic growth is very unlikely that the economy will improve.
Now the question, how do you dare hope to save existing jobs
when the economy is not producing more jobs to an extent that
you cannot even save those that are in existence already?
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: House Chairperson, I think hon Matiase,
you are confusing the two issues. Productivity SA is meant to
assist those companies that are in distress. That is why we are
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funding them so that they can train and retrain those workers
during that process when the company is trying to make sure ...
IsiZulu:
... ukuthi esimweni esifanele. [right] I-production ...
English:
... that you are talking about is another issue that is not
part of this particular programme. Yes, we have to export;
particularly that programme is under the Department of Economic
Development.
IsiZulu:
Thina sisiza la kusuke kuwukuthi kukhona inkampani esenkingeni
...
English:
... in such a way that they want to retrench ...
IsiZulu:
... abasebenzi bese sithi thina ...
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English:
... let us intervene so that ...
IsiZulu:
... abasebenzi bangakwazi ukudilizwa emsebenzini [retrenched].
English:
Thank you very much, House Chair.
Mr N S MATIASE: The hon Minister should ask for clarity in the
event that she is in a state of confusion herself. If the
confusion was not that clear she must be honourable and decent
to us for clarity.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Do you have another
question?
Mr N S MATIASE: For more clarity.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Okay.
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Question 42:
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, the question was
what is the projected budget deficit of the SABC as at the
10 May 2017? And the other question was whether the SABC is at
risk of not being able to pay any of its debts in the
foreseeable future and if so why? The SABCs’ performance for the
4th quarter ended 31 March 2017 shows an operating loss of about
R509 million. It should be noted that the figures quoted here
are unaudited.
For the second question, the SABC will not have enough financial
resources to meet its contractual obligations and that is the
sad state of affairs.
Ms P T VAN DAMME: Minister, I think the point needs to be made
that it’s an absolute outrage that your predecessor allowed the
complete plunder of the SABC resources and was merely moved to
another department and now you are left to clean up her mess. I
think there needs to be action taken against the former Minister
of Communications for allowing this. [Applause.] As it stands,
the SABC is unable to pay local producers; it owes them
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hundredths of millions. It is unable to pay musicians. It is
unlikely to pay staff and it is a really truly a sad state of
affairs.
We now know that you have received the official application for
funding from the SABC Interim Board. I believe it was sent to
you in the last couple of hours. How much has the SABC applied
for and what form of funding is it? Is it a cash guarantee? Is
it a cash injection that they requested? What kind of funding is
it?
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: You see hon Van Damme I am not
sure that they have sent that to me in the last ...
[Interjections.] No it’s true. ... In the last couple of hours I am really not aware otherwise I would be able to respond to
you and give you an answer to that. But what I will tell you is
that we have been working with the SABC, a team that is composed
of people from my office and also from the Minister of Finance’s
office. And what the Minister of Finance has said to us is that
we would need to look at a quite number of issues before we come
to him for assistance in ensuring that we are able to get
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funding from the banks or from any other investors or even from
treasury itself.
We have looked a few things. We have imposed a moratorium on
capital expenditure. We have ensured that everybody who is on
paid suspension, those cases must be expedited so that the
decision could be made, whether or not they remain as employees
of the corporation. We have decided to reduce the number of
consultants that the SABC uses. And the sad state is that the
SABC was using financial consultants while they have almost
eight if I am not mistaken Chattered Accountants in their
payroll.
We have imposed a moratorium on leave encashment. And this is
something that I have not discussed yet with my counterpart, the
Minister of Finance. We are also looking at improving strategies
on the collection of licenses. The collection of licenses is
dismal where we have 150 staff members that are responsible for
this. And I said we will deal with the issues around labour
relations to ensure that ... [Interjections.] ... Sorry. Thank
you.
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Ms P T VAN DAMME: Check your email. It was sent to you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No hon member I haven’t
recognised you. Please don’t just jump up and use the microphone
without being recognised.
Mr R M TSELI: Hon Chair, the public broadcaster has become the
centre of ideological battles since the dawn of democracy. And
over the years we have witnessed the deterioration of the status
of the public broadcaster as a result of many factors including
the one I mentioned above - given the recent unfortunate events
at the SABC and the unfortunate environment to revive the
broadcaster to its glory days following the appointment of the
interim board. How does the Minister envision delivering on the
turnaround strategy of the broadcaster and what are the critical
immediate areas to address. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, I would like to
answer the question about the email. I think that it always
courteous when people send you emails and you have many other
things to do that they call you to tell you that they have sent
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you information. As it stands, I have not looked at my emails as
yet. So as a result of that I would safely say I have not
received anything from them. [Interjections.] I don’t sit on the
board. I ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order! Just continue the
hon Minister with the follow up question that was asked by the
hon member.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Van Damme you did say that you
will get me today. The issue here is that the board is ceased
with developing a turnaround strategy for the SABC. That
turnaround strategy has been finalised. We have not met with the
board to discuss the turnaround strategy, the interventions that
are required, both from me and the rest of Cabinet. So as such
right now I cannot say what it is that I will be doing to assist
on interventions that will come form the turnaround strategy
once it is presented to me. Thank you.
Mr T R RAWULA: Chair, the reported crisis of the SABC Minister,
is as a result of deliberate mismanagement by the previous
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Minister, the previous board and the iron fist management of
Hlaudi Motsoeneng. What specific action will you take to ensure
that the dishonourable Faith Muthambi, the previous board and
Hlaudi are held personally liable for bringing SABC into its
knees? Now that the SABC is unable to meet its obligation, what
are you going to do? Are you going to protect the SABC board the
same way the previous Minister protected Hlaudi and the board?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, I am not in the
business of protecting anybody but I am in the business of
ensuring that we work together in turning the SABC around.
[Interjections.] The interim board has been appointed to do
exactly that. I will give them all the support they need. I will
not protect them but I give them support because I also need to
ensure that one of the things that I have appointed to do is to
ensure that the ad hoc committee report is implemented by the
board and that I shall do. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Minister, it’s quite shocking for us to learn
that the SABC had a forth quarter loss of R509 million. Now if
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we take this over a year it’s almost R2 billion. What I would
like to know is if there has been any exercise been done on the
continuing sustainability of the SABC as a corporation? And are
there any moves to shut down some of the programmes or some of
the stations or some of the cost centres which are taking up a
lot of money within the corporation. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: One of the things that we are
doing is to check which of the television and radio programmes
are unprofitable, where we have suffered losses in terms of
viewership and listenership. But also looking and ensuring that
where we have suffered those loses, what are the reasons for
that and if we can’t turn around the situation. The turnaround
strategy will address all of the issues that you are raising.
But also looking at a different funding model to ensure the
sustainability of the SABC – that is what we are also looking
at.
Question 73:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chair, we have designed a
programme focusing on the growth of the sector, through the
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support of new entrants, especially junior miners and black
participants in the industry. We are working with the black
junior miners to develop a strategy for their sustainable growth
and inclusion in the ownership and operation of mining assets.
The intervention has identified binding constraints to their
growth and development, as well as key stakeholders in
addressing these constraints. These include access to capital,
access to geological information, access to markets, skill and
technology. We are in the process of identifying viable projects
for support and will heed the call to use all levers at
government’s disposal to ensure meaningful transformation. To
that extent, we will ensure that government’s attempts to
address illegal mining and the rehabilitation of derelict and
ownerless mines are used as opportunities to provide experience,
opportunities and jobs for black people and entrepreneurs, with
a special focus on women and youth.
Several Youth In Mining sessions were held in 2016, attended by
over 400 young entrepreneurs. Follow-up sessions are planned for
June this year, holding procurement sessions aimed at the
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promotion of opportunities and enterprise development within the
mining industry.
We are also aware of the importance of a cadastral system and
modern, complete and accessible geological information to the
revitalisation of exploration investment. To this end, and
through our Council for Geoscience, we hosted the International
Geological Congress in Cape Town, from 27 August to 4 September
last year. We have leveraged on that to design a 10-year,
integrated geoscience project to bring about a
multidisciplinary, geological platform at a scale of 1:50 000,
nationwide.
In promoting and regulating the mining, minerals and upstream
petroleum sectors for transformation, growth and development, so
as to ensure that all South Africans derive sustainable benefit
from their country’s mineral wealth, progress has been made in
the following areas. The department also acts to promote
investment in the mining industry through the support of the
Invest South Africa initiative - the One Stop Shop investment.
The One Stop Shop will improve regulatory efficiency and provide
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multiple services from a single point to those interested in
conducting business in South Africa. It has identified
bottlenecks, removed administrative barriers and reduced
regulatory inefficiencies to make conducting business in the
country easier.
We are continuing to ensure that the people of South Africa get
the dignity they deserve through the available instruments, such
as the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act. The
Department of Mineral Resources has been supporting Parliament
in an effort to process the Petroleum and Mineral Resources
Development Amendment Bill, which is on track to be returned
from provincial consultation to Parliament.
On the Mining Charter, the regulatory tool governing
transformation in the sector, we have gained experience from the
previous charters. We have acted in this reviewed charter to
address issues that affect effective ownership by black people
and increase participation in decision-making structures, such
as at board level.
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Mr Z M D MANDELA: Chair, hon Minister, does the government or
the department have any programme to provide business funding
for the youth in the diamond industry? I would like to refer to
a letter I received from Olwethu Nkonyela, which reads as
follows, “I would like to start a business in diamond processing
for cutting and polishing diamonds. I am currently in training
for diamond processing.”
In this light, Minister, I would like to know what radical
measures have been put in place to reach out to our young
people. Are these policies working? If not, what additional
measures must be adopted to ensure that young people, such as
Olwethu, realise their dreams? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chair, I appreciate the
letter from Olwethu and the question from the hon member. As
part of the programme supporting junior miners, the department,
working with junior miners themselves, is engaging with
stakeholders like the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC,
the Public Investment Corporation, PIC, and other funding
institutions aimed at designing funding and technical support
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mechanisms to ensure that radical economic transformation and
dreams, such as those of Olwethu Nkonyela and other young
people, are realised.
Through the State Diamond Trader, the department is supporting a
number of new entrants to the industry by providing training and
mentoring, and facilitating access to diamonds, as per its core
mandate. As part of radical economic transformation, this
programme targets black entrepreneurs, with the focus on women
and youth. The training involved is designed on a holistic
approach which focuses not only on cutting and polishing but
also on other aspects of the diamond business and other, broader
business principles. In addition, as part of the training,
trainees are placed with existing diamond-cutting and polishing
firms to get exposure to day-to-day operations.
Mr J R B LORIMER: Chair, the Minister mentioned in his answer
two parts of radical economic transformation, amongst them being
the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act and the
Mining Charter. Minister, given this government’s commitment to
carrying out regulatory impact assessments, can you tell us what
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regulatory impact assessment have you done into these and other
aspects of radical economic transformation? Can you make it
public if you have done such an assessment; and if you haven’t
got one that you can show us, why not?
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chair, we do have impact
assessments. What I have said to ... What I can say is that both
of these policies are in the process of being completed. This
includes the Mining Charter. Part of the requirement before you
complete is that you need to have that impact assessment dealing
with how this regulatory framework is going to impact on our
economy, on our development and on the lives of our people. We
have them and there is nothing that we would not want to share,
should the member want to look at it. We are transparent.
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Chair, hon Minister, you would agree that
poverty and underdevelopment, not only in South Africa but on
the African continent, stands in stark contrast to the abundance
of its mineral resources. The question asked: What programmes
are in place to promote and regulate mines? We should rather be
asking: What constraints can be removed?
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Would you not agree, hon Minister, that the mining industry in
South Africa requires assistance, rather than unnecessary
legislation; and that thousands of pieces of antimining
legislation are turning South Africa into the most hostile
country to mining on the planet? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chair, as I engage with
stakeholders in the sector, what they normally raise sharply is
policy certainty. They want to be certain that their investment
will yield results, at the end of the day. They want to be
certain what is expected from them.
By using these pieces of legislation that I have talked about,
we are providing exactly that; and in our engagements with them,
they are happy that that process is coming to an end. In
addition, in our engagement, they are not raising what you are
raising, as an issue. By and large, they want to be certain of
the direction in which this industry is moving.
Ms E N LOUW: Chair, mineral resources remain a strategic asset
for South Africa’s growth, particularly given that commodity
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prices are stabilising, which contributes to indicating that the
global economy is recovering. Unlike in the past, when commodity
prices were high and only the mining companies benefited,
without paying more taxes or wages – and most of them stealing
from the people of South Africa through illicit financial flows
– is it not time that the government expropriate mines without
compensation for meaningful ownership, control and management
thereof? I thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chair, it is time for radical
economic transformation. In that radical economic
transformation, we will ensure that we work with all the
stakeholders in the sector to transform the sector in a
responsible manner. We will also use the state-owned mining
company to ensure that the state also plays a role in the
development of its people in this industry and to ensure that
the current ownership patterns are changed. Moving forward, it
is important that we work together with all the stakeholders and
we ensure that we have a thriving industry. Thank you.
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Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want to
check if it is permissible to waffle like the hon Minister of
Mineral Resources has just done when answering a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, we have
moved past that question. We are now dealing with Question 77.
Ms E N LOUW: But he said nothing! He just waffled.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You should have risen
while the Minister was replying. We have passed that point now.
Hon Minister, will you reply to Question 77, please?
Question 77:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: The department is
consistently monitoring the implementation of social and labour
plans. The plans include the following: human resource
development for training of employees; learnerships;
internships; bursaries and skills development programmes; the
management of downscaling and retrenchments; retraining and reskilling of employees; and local economic development projects.
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In the last financial year, although the target of projects to
be implemented was 120, a total of 162 was achieved. In
addition, there has been a contribution to skills development
through bursaries and learnerships.
The implementation of infrastructural development projects has
contributed to the upliftment of mining towns and labour-sending
areas as communities are able to access facilities which seek to
address their basic needs. Some of the projects which were
implemented in the last financial year are as follows: computer
and science lab in KwaZulu-Natal in Msunduzi Local Municipality;
construction of McKenzie Street in the Northern Cape in
Kgatelopele Local Municipality; construction of early childhood
development centre in Metsimaholo Local Municipality in the Free
State; construction of a clinic in Serallaneng Village in the
North West; and housing projects in Emalahleni Municipality in
Mpumalanga.
Ms M V MAFOLO: Thank you Minister for the answer you have given.
In terms of the projects mentioned n your response, how do
measure the value of SNP versus the profit made by companies to
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make sure that they don’t spend less than expected and If needs
be, should we be prescribing the Mining Charter and percentages
they ought to be spending?
Setswana:
Jaaka re itemogela gore ditlamo tse dintsi ga di dirise madi
sentle ao ba tshwanetseng ba a thuse baagi ka one. Re na le
moepo o o bidiwang Namaqua kwa Masepaleng wa Selegae wa Mamusa,
baagi ba teng ba go itse jang gore poelo e e diriwang ke moepo
oo e lekana le madi ao moepo o tshwanetseng o a dirise mo go
bone?
Sesotho:
LETONA LA DIMINERALE: Ha ke lebohe mohaeso mme ke hlalose feela
ka bokgutshwanyane hore melao le melawana eo re nang le yona
motsotsong wa jwale, ha ho moo e nang le sesupo sa hore re ka
etsa jwalo, ra supa hore ba tlameha ho ba le ditjeo ho latela
kamoo ba entseng tswala kateng. Le leng la mabaka ao re bonang
hore dintho di nepahetse kamoo di leng ka teng hona jwale ke
hore mohla dikhampani di reng ha di a etsa tswala, re ne re ke
ke ra ba le diprojeke tse yang setjhabeng ho ya se ntlafatsa. Ka
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hona, ntlhakemo ya rona ke hore ba entse tswala kapa ba sa e
etsa, re hloka hore ba ye setjhabeng ho ya etsa tsoseletso le
tswelopele. Ena ke ntlhakemo ya rona motsotsong wa jwale ho
tswela pele. Ke leboha potso ya hao e ntshetsang pele.
Mof S S THEMBEKWAYO: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo. Letona, ba entse
tjhelete kapa ha ba e etsa.
English:
Clearly, mining companies particularly those involved in illicit
financial flows at massive scale like Anglo American, BHP
Billiton and criminal organisation Glenco, do not regard the
social and labour plans as legally binding. Hence, they do not
implement them with more than 48% of SLPs not signed. Seventy
two per cent did not engage the community or government on
housing plans. A thorough review of SLPs by the Centre for
Applied Legal Studies based at Wits University found that most
communities were unaware of the commitments companies made in
the SLPs. In almost all cases these promises were not fulfilled.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C Frolick): Hon member, what is your
question?
Ms S S THEMBEKWAYO: My question is: Why is government not
revoking licenses of mining companies which are failing to meet
their SLPs obligations with immediate effect?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE ZOKWEMBIWA PHANSI NENGCEBO: Angibonge lo mbuzo
obuya kulungu elihloniphekileyo.
English:
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: We have taken a stance to
align all our SLPs’ programmes. We accede to the fact that our
SLPs were not aligned. We are not only checking as to whether
the SLPs have been implemented. We are also saying that there
are companies which operate in the same community - two or three
of them - doing small projects which are different. If you align
projects you also open up an opportunity where companies can
come together and say there is a need for a dam; combine their
budget; and build a dam that is a necessity for a community.
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Going forward, we are agreed with the companies that we need to
monitor, once we have agreed on which SLPs are going to be
implemented. To cover your question of communities not even
knowing what type of projects are happening in their area, there
is now a necessity that, before SLPs can be implemented, they
are to be published in two languages. It could be English and
the language which is commonly used in that particular community
so that our communities are also taken on board. Thank you for
the progressive question.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Minister, usually mining companies that
are always in the public domain are those that are in either
Gauteng, North West or Mpumalanga, etc. There are various cases
that are reported - not good though. However, there are other
mines where a lot is happening but not reported. In your tenure
as a Minister, have you come across cases where there are
incidents like accidents that happen in the mines and which are
not reported, and whereby those mines are not giving any
assistance to mineworkers? For instance, there are mines in
KwaZulu-Natal which may not be in the public domain, but there
are issues there. Have you come across issues that are not
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reported at all, and what steps have you taken to ensure that
those issues are dealt with? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Let me thank you for raising
that question. Indeed, we have come across a number of incidents
that have not been reported and we have since taken action. You
would remember that when I arrived here we took a stance that,
if there is any incident in the mine, we go to that mine and see
for ourselves. We have been consistent in doing that. As a
result, there have been some changes in our personnel where we
think we are not happy because we have inspectors who should
ensure that any incident which is not reported gets reported to
us by the department. For those mines that have not reported,
there are sections that we normally use for events unwanted by
the department. Section 54 is the ultimate end and it stipulates
that work in the particular area where the unwarranted incident
has happened must be stopped. I must say that we are progressing
well in our meetings with our stakeholders to ensure that all
the incidents are reported and workers in South Africa are
treated as human beings.
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Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon Minister, the mining industry has
ploughed millions of rand into infrastructural development
wherever they develop, but only the big groups. My question is:
Why are mining licenses still being issued to politicallyconnected people who bring no corporate social development in
general or conservation plans to the table, the result being
continued downward, spiral environmental degradation with huge
socioeconomic consequences that the big mining companies must
try to uphold? In these cases, why are our communities allowed
to get steamrolled by these fly-by-night operators who have
protection from your department, DMR without these communities
having any input or benefits from the process? Thank you, Chair.
Afrikaans:
Die MINISTER VAN MINERALE BRONNE: Baie dankie vir die vraag.
English:
We make sure that all the people of South Africa are treated the
same. You would remember that our Constitution says that the
mineral resources of South Africa belong to all the people of
South Africa. Whether you are a politician or not, if you want
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to go into business, you must declare properly and do business
the way our legislation says. One of our policies is to ensure
that the ownership patterns as they obtain in South Africa are
changed. The majority of South Africans are currently not part
of the ownership. Therefore, there is a need for us to
transform.
However, in our quest to transform, we are also keen and
energetic to deal with those who come into the sector
unscrupulously. As we give our mining rights, we work on the
system called SA Mineral Resources Administration System, Samrad
which can be accessed by anybody. Our records are there for
anybody to access. But what we want to achieve is to ensure that
we transform this economy and our money in the country develops
the people of South Africa at large.
Question 50:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: House Chairperson, the question that has
been asked by hon Mackay relates to Eskom and I want to indicate
that Eskom has not done anything outside the law with regard to
the process that was followed previously. What they have been
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acting upon is the mandate given to them by Cabinet, so nothing
wrong has been done by Eskom. They have been following the
process as per the mandate given to them by Cabinet resolution.
Thank you.
Mr G MACKAY: Minister, what you are saying deviates from your
answer in the portfolio committee last week, where you indicated
that the process that you have decided upon around the
procurement actually deviated from the process that Eskom itself
had followed. So, I am a bit confused by the contradiction that
you raising now in the House, perhaps you would like to clarify
that. But more importantly, we all know that the Integrated
Resource Plan, IRP, is the very foundation for all energy
planning within the Republic.
How do you propose that Eskom has acted lawfully when it has
based its plan to procure nuclear on an outdated plan - on the
2010 plan that was supposed to be updated by 2012, in 2014 and
again in 2016. The current IRP clear states that nuclear will
not be required until awhile into the 2030s, so what is your
justification and what is Eskom justification for procuring
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nuclear when our own energy policy draft document clearly states
we don’t need it? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: House Chairperson, I think there is
confusion. Hon Mackay, what Eskom has issued request for
information as per section 34 determinations, which were issued
by Minister Joemat-Pettersson, so, there is nothing wrong that
they have done. That is what I said.
With regard to the process, for you to be able to proceed with
concluding the funding model and the cost, they needed to enter
into that process. So, it doesn’t say that we have entered the
procurement. It is to request information so that you can
conclude the process. We need to go back to Cabinet and say this
is what we have, based on the request of information and that
was prior to the court judgement.
Now, the court judgement said that section 34 determinations
that have been issued have been found to be wanting and they
have been set aside. As I said in the committee, we are looking
at the court judgement and should be able to pronounce on the
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outcome and our decision going forward before the end of this
week, so that we can give clarity with regard to the work. That
is what we are saying.
No contradiction, nothing deviates from what I said in the
portfolio committee. I am still sticking to that process - the
process that Eskom was following is as per the mandate of the
Department of Energy given to them as the preferred procurer
going forward. But for you to finalise that process, you needed
this process that they have embarked on. So, I hope we have
clarified the matter and there is no confusion. Request for
information is not yet procurement process. [Applause.]
The House Chairperson (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, the time
allocated for questions has now expired. Outstanding replies
received will be printed in Hansard.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: House Chair we move:
That this House -
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(1) notes the resolution adopted by the national assembly on
13 September 2016, which established an ad hoc joint
committee on member’s interest and a similar resolution
adopted by the National Council of Provinces on
20 September 2016;
(2) also notes that the committee was initially set to
report on 10 November 2016 and a resolution extending
the deadline to 31 March 2017 was adopted by both
Houses;
(3) further notes the Joint Rule 138(5)(b) which provides
that an ad hoc joint committee ceases to exist when the
date for completion of the task has expired;
(4) recognise that the committee has ceased to exist after
31 March 2017 when the date for the completion of the
task expired;
(5) resolves subject to the concurrence of the National
Council of Provinces to re-establish the ad hoc
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committee on ethics and members interest with the same
composition, membership, mandate and powers as its
predecessor;
(6) instructs the committee to incorporate in its work the
proceedings and all the work of the previous committee;
and
(7) sets the deadline by which the committee must report as
31 August 2017
Ms N V MENTE: Chairperson, we just need clarity. Where is this
coming from? Was this in the Chief’s Whip forum or programme
because we don’t have a clue of what this is?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Definitely, the Chief
Whip’s forum did speak to this matter today and we were
empowered to bring this matter to this House. Thank you very
much.
The House adjourned at 18:06.
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