Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 15 Mar 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
15 MARCH 2017
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WEDNESDAY, 15 MARCH 2017
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:06.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
TEMPORARY SUSPENSION OF NOTICES AND MOTIONS
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that
the Whippery has agreed that there will be no Notices of Motion of
Motions without Notice.
APPOINTMENT
(Announcement)
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you will all remember that
hon Kgosi Setlamorago Thobejane resigned from Parliament last month.
We therefore had to get in touch with Limpopo to fill the vacancy
which had been created by the kgosi’s resignation.
I therefore would like to announce and welcome the hon M D Monakedi
as the replacement of the kgosi. You are welcome, sir. [Applause.]
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT:
SANAC’s aim to reduce gender-based violence
1.
Ms T G Mpambo-Sibhukwana (Western Cape: DA) asked the Deputy
President:
With reference to the SA National Aids Council’s (Sanac) aim to
reduce gender-based violence by reaching out to at least 70 000
sex workers in a bid to increase the use of condoms in the
industry, how will Sanac reach sex workers given that
prostitution is illegal in South Africa?
CO76E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, it is a pleasure to be here.
Maybe someone will retrieve the water that had been left for me at
the usual place to which you have made me accustomed to answering
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questions. You got me used to being there; now, without notice, you
are moving me away! [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, maybe we are trying
to get another message across to you, that this House is actually
not suited to that. Having a person addressing the Chair from there
obstructs a lot of Rules of Parliament. So, maybe ...
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay, I get it.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order. I just wondered if the Deputy
President was afraid of the Western Cape!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a valid point of order. The
Deputy President is not afraid.
Hon members, I try to be consistent. Do you remember when the
President was last here? We asked him them to address the House and
respond to questions from that seat. That is why I am asking the
Deputy President to do that.
Please proceed, hon Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I have now received notice. [Laughter.]
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Hon Chairperson and hon members, the National Sex Worker HIV Plan
which was launched in 2016 is fundamentally about human rights. It
is about affirming the right of all South Africans to life, to
dignity, and to health care, regardless of their occupation or even
their circumstances.
Section 27 of our Constitution guarantees the right of access to
health care for all, and explicitly includes the right to
reproductive health care. This places what I would call a
responsibility on the state to ensure that sex workers, like any
other South African or member of society, are able to access health
care services, support and information. Essentially this plan is
also about public health. With HIV prevalence rates three to four
times higher among female sex workers than among women in the
general population, our national effort to arrest new HIV infections
will not succeed if sex workers are disempowered, stigmatised and
marginalised.
At the centre of this plan is a peer education programme in which up
to 1 000 peer educators participate. They will be recruited to
provide support as well as assistance to around 70 000 sex workers
in our country over a three-year period.
This plan goes beyond the provision of targeted health care
services. It also addresses issues of violence, stigma, alcohol and
drug abuse. It also touches on other important and sensitive
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matters, such as depression, social isolation, forced migration and
also lack of economic participation.
This plan is going to sensitise health care providers like social
workers and law enforcement officials on the rights of sex workers
to quality care, confidential information as well as their right to
consent.
The fact is that sex work is seen as an occupation that is criminal.
I should say here the Law Commission is still dealing with this
matter, but this does not mean that the rights of sex workers to
health care and other basic services should be disregarded. The fact
that sex workers have such a high HIV prevalence makes it
particularly important that we implement targeted programmes that
will have a meaningful impact on the epidemic. We will never be able
to ends Aids in our country unless we dramatically reduce HIV, TB
and STI transmission among sex workers and other vulnerable groups
in our country.
Now this is an overarching programme in which we would like all
sectors of society to participate in a helpful rather than in a way
that is not helpful. Thank you.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you for the opportunity. Hon Deputy
President, it is good to hear what you are saying and I think, as
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per your answer, that you’ve got your ducks in a row, but there is
something that I want to ask you with regard to your answer.
You pledged to develop sound policies. That was one of your
utterances when you were here last time. At the launch of the
National Sex Workers HIV Plan in early 2016 you also pledged to pass
progressive laws which promote the human rights for all. In that
regard, I would like to know what progress have you made in
developing a legal framework that deals with the legal status of sex
workers to ensure that our laws not just comply with their needs but
balance the rights of individuals and the needs of society at large?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon member. As I said in
my answer, the Law Commission has been conducting what I would call
a thorough-going process in this regard. They have conducted some
research and extensive consultations and they are about to come out
with a report. This report will shed light on this area. As an
independent structure in our country that deals with all these
matters that could end up in legislation, I think that we should
give them the opportunity to come up with this type of position.
Thereafter, government and indeed various other sectors of South
African society will be able to comment.
Now, the issue of the legal status of sex workers is a vexed issue,
not only in this country but also in many other countries. Many
people tend to have fixed views, one way or the other. Some will
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argue that sex work should be legalised. Others will say it should
not be legalised. In some countries it is legalised and in other
countries it is not.
What I have also learnt is that in some countries they actually do a
portion of both: they legalise it and there is also a question of
illegality. In my view, we have done the correct thing in our own
country by asking the Law Commission to deal with the matter,
because it is so controversial, and because it is a question that
evokes such a lot of emotion on all sides. I can tell you that there
is a huge number of people who participate in sex work who see sex
work as being their profession. That it is their job. And they say,
we are sex workers, and what has driven us to be sex workers is a
whole number of factors, but we are still South Africans and we want
to be treated with dignity, and we want to be treated with respect
like all the other people in this country. When we participate in
our profession, we should not be subjected to arrest or be
criminalised and all that.
That is their view and it is a strongly held view.
Now, clearly, there are others who see it differently and that is
why the Law Commission’s report is going to be very important in
this regard because it will give us guidance. In a way it will also
help to structure the debate and the discussion that should ensue in
our country. We are a country of people who debate matters, who
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discuss matters. When that report comes out, we will probably be
able to have a structured debate and give substance and content to
the constitutional rights that a number of our people have.
But, as I was saying, the real challenge is that this issue is
fundamentally about the health rights of people who participate in
this type of work, and how we assist them, because they are South
Africans. They are the people who are most exposed to HIV. We must
find ways of giving support and assistance to them. Thank you.
Ms L L ZWANE: Your Excellency, you have actually alluded to the fact
that, like other South African residents, sex workers are entitled
to quality health services, as it is a human right and a basic
service to which all South Africans are entitled.
One would like to check, however, the capacity and ability of the SA
National Aids Council, Sanac, to dispense these preventative
devices, and what the timeframe would be that they have planned,
also whether there are plans to extend other services, other
prophylaxes, over a period of time in terms of the plan that has
been drawn up. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, there some 153 000 sex workers in our
country. The SA National Aids Council launched this sex worker plan
with the view to addressing the key challenges that sex workers
face, being exposed to HIV infection in quite an extensive way. As I
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was saying, they are much more vulnerable and exposed to this than
the general female population that we have in our country. They are
subjected to a whole range of other challenges and problems and
dangers compared to many others.
So the plan that we have in place is being rolled out as we speak.
The good thing about it is that the sex workers themselves – both
men and women – are active participants in rolling out this plan.
They themselves are rolling it out. They are participating in it
through various subcampaigns that have to with raising the level of
consciousness, raising the level of care and opening access to
health care services and things like rolling out condoms, which is
also part of that plan.
As to how long this will take, we expect that it will be a rolling
plan because the challenge is huge. It could take up to three years
to implement this plan. We are gladly being supported by a number of
institutions. Government obviously underpins the funding of this
plan but we have international partners who are part of this plan
and who are giving us maximum support.
Will this plan succeed? Out view is that, yes, to a large extent we
want to see this plan succeeding so that we can reach out to as many
sex workers as we possibly can.
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The good thing about it is that we have identified that sex workers
are a special and vulnerable group that needs to be addressed. We
are also identifying the various areas where it is most prevalent.
The work that we are doing is focused on those areas and locations.
Thank you.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, Deputy President, let me reiterate the
fact that women make up the most vulnerable sector of our society
and many are forced to resort to extreme means to make a living
because your government is unable or unwilling to create economic
opportunities for our people. The criminalisation of prostitution is
therefore the criminalisation of the most vulnerable sector of
society which has no other means of making a living.
What specific action are you going to take to ensure that
prostitution is decriminalised and that police who abuse sex workers
are brought to book? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson and hon member, I did say that
the issue of addressing the legal status of the work that is done by
sex workers is being addressed by the Law Commission. I should also
say that, in the community of sex workers, the nomenclature – the
language they use – is that they call what they do sex work, and do
not call it prostitution. That is what many people have become
accustomed to, to refer to this category of work as sex work.
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Now, the issue of criminalisation or decriminalisation is being
addressed and is being dealt with. So we should wait for the Law
Commission to deal with that aspect.
But, having said that, we should say that the programme and the
campaign that has been launched – seeing that you have referred to
economic participation – also aims at seeing the extent to which we
can get people who are participating in sex work to have a number of
economic opportunities open to them. Some of them say they got
involved in that type of work because they are poor and do not have
economic opportunities. That is precisely what is being addressed,
to see what avenues can be opened, not only for them, but also for
all South Africans to participate in economic activity that can
sustain their lives.
Let me say once again, let us wait for the Law Commission to come
out with the report so that we can see what type of legal status
they should have.
With regard to police officials abusing people who participate in
sex work ... I mean, clearly, the issue of abuse by any government
official, be it a police person or a civil servant, is something
that cannot be countenanced.
So, if people have a sense of or an experience of abuse at the hands
of any government official, we would say that there are avenues and
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ways in which those types of practices can be reported on and acted
against. We have various good agencies that deal with these matters.
No South African should ever feel that they are being subjected to
abuse by a government official or a police official.
Indeed, the institutions that we have are robust, and they act very
quickly against abuse of any sort by government officials or police
officials. Thank you.
Nks M Z V NCITHA: Mandibulele le ngcaciso icace gca eyenziwe
nguSekela Mongameli. Umbuzo wam umalunga nephulo elithathwe liSebe
lezoPhuhliso loLuntu lokunxulumana nabantu abasebenza ngokushishina
ngokwabelana ngesondo abazibiza iPleasure Executive. Ndifuna ukwazi
ukuba ingaba i-ofisi kaSekela Mongameli inalo kusini na unxulumano
nala ofisi phantsi kwentloko yeNkulumbuso yePhondo, ngeziphakamiso
zabantu abashishina ngokwabelana ngesondo? Ndiyabulela Sihlalo
(Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Ms M Z V NCITHA: Let me thank the clear explanation made by the hon
Deputy President.
My question is about the campaign done by the
Department of Social Development and sex workers who call them,
Pleasure Executive. I would like to know whether the office of the
Deputy President has connections with that office under the head of
Provincial Minister, about the views of the sex workers or not?
Thank you Chairperson.]
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member ...
... njengokuba sonke sisazi umsebenzi weSanac wenziwa yonke indawo
eMzantsi Afrika. Iziphakamiso eziphuma kuSanac sidibana nazo phaya
kwiSanac. Eyona nto intle kakhulu yeyokuba iiNkulumbuso zamaPhondo
zingoosihlalo beSanac kumaphondo. [... As we all know that Sanac job
is done everywhere in South Africa. We get Sanac views from Sanac. A
good thing is that Premiers of the Provinces are the chairpersons of
the Provincial Sanacs.]
So, all proposals and all views that emanate from provinces and from
various government departments even at provincial level, will be
articulated at those structures and at provincial Aids councils and,
in the end, will cascade upwards to Sanac at the national level.
Now, it is a real pleasure to hear about this type of work being
referred to as people who do pleasure executive work. That is a new
one! I’ve learnt something today.
We will be looking forward to an active interaction with the Eastern
Cape Provincial Aids Council to get to some depth on their
description of this type of work, because they could possibly bring
new insights. We would also be looking forward to some of the
thoughts and proposals that will be coming from there.
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Siyabulela kwaye ndiyathemba ukuba iBhunga leSifo uGawulayo yePhondo
yaseMpuma Koloni liza kuyicacisa kakuhle ukuba ezi zimvo
singaziqhuba njani phaya kuzwelonke. Eyona nto siyibulelayo yeyokuba
iphondo ngalinye linebhunga leSifo uGawulayo kwaye eyaseMpuma Koloni
ikhokelwe yiNkulumbuso yePhondo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph
follows.)
[We thank you and we hope that the Eastern Cape Province Aids
Council will clarify how these views can be implemented nationally.
What we thank the most is the fact that each province has and Aids
Council and it is led by the Provincial Premier in Eastern Cape.]
And so we all know, even at local government level. The arrangement
we have is that each municipality structure or local government
structure should also have a local Aids council so that,
collectively, as we work together we deal with this pandemic. Thank
you very much.
National minimum wage agreement
2.
Mr E R Makue (Gauteng: ANC) asked the Deputy President:
Whether, in light of the recent agreement by social partners
in the National Economic Development and Labour Council on the
national minimum wage, there is a scientific study that has
been conducted to determine the human resource and
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organisational capacity to (a) monitor and (b) enforce
compliance with the national minimum wage; if not, why not; if
so, what are the relevant details?
CO86EThe
DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, if the national
minimum wage is going to be successful in terms of how it will be
implemented by the employers, it is because we see it as a key
instrument and enabler of lifting the lowest paid workers in our
country to come to a stage of wage empowerment. It is to this end
that we want to see the employers and the companies becoming
compliant to implement it to good effect.
The social partners at the National Economic Development and Labour
Council, Nedlac, level, have been developing the architecture of how
the national minimum wage will be implemented. They agreed on a
number of measures that are going to promote universal compliance by
the companies. Firstly, they set the minimum wage at a level which I
believe is practicable and can be implemented. Those who are not
able to implement it will have various assistance measures that they
can rely on.
Secondly, there are also mechanisms that have been put in place to
assist the sectors and the companies that may encounter difficulties
in meeting the minimum wage that we set. What do these include? They
include temporary exemption for the companies who argue that they
are not able to pay the minimum wage and also the vulnerable sectors
of our economy
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Thirdly, they agreed to establish what we call, the national minimum
wage commission that would regularly review the impact of the
minimum wage on employment, income levels and also on poverty, so
that any adverse effect or impact that can be identified should be
addressed as quickly as possible.
Fourthly, they also agreed that, the implementation would be
accompanied by an intensive advocacy campaign where the level of
knowledge and understanding will be raised, not only of the
employers, but also of those who are suppose to enjoy this ride, the
working people themselves.
Now, in the preparations for the discussions at the Nedlac, the
Department of Labour commissioned a research report that looked,
among other things, at the human resource as well as organisational
capacity to monitor and to enforce compliance for the minimum wage.
A lot of work has been done by the Department of Labour.
May I also say that, they have been very proactive and have been
able to look into the future to see how best the minimum wage can be
implemented, and how to engender the universal compliance. They
found quite a number of challenges and issues which they need to
address in their research work ahead of the implementation.
They found that the quality and the availability of the instructors
was a challenge, and this they’ve owned up to themselves. The
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International Labour Organisation, ILO, reported in 2009 that 60% of
labour inspectors in South Africa have a level of education which at
the moment may not enable them to execute the tasks as well as we
want to. Therefore, they need to be provided with additional skills
so that they are able to enforce the minimum wage.
Now, that is the first challenge which we believe can be addressed.
They also found that South Africa has about 1 056 inspectors that
are stationed at 128 labour offices across the country. While this
is sufficient by the ILO standards, the distribution of these
inspectors is skewed, both regionally and sectorally. This is
another matter that they will address.
They also found out that there is a lack of awareness of the
existing minimum wages which results in violations. Let’s remember
that we have a number of minimum wages that have been set up through
sectoral determination. Now, the level of understanding is a little
bit low, hence the campaign that we are now going to launch.
They also found out that an enforcement of a single wage mechanism
instead of current sectoral determinations would be much more
effective, because in the end, we are going to end up with one
minimum wage. Therefore, the inspectors will only be implementing
and enforcing compliance around one minimum wage rather than a
plethora of them.
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The agreement that was reached by the social partners will now be
encoded into a national minimum wage law which will finally come
into the NCOP as well. There are further engagements that are going
to be happening between the parties at the Nedlac level to see how
best we can tighten up the enforcement of minimum wage. We are
confident that the commitment shown by business, labour as well as
the community members to the effective implementation of minimum
wage will have a significant level of increasing the compliance.
I have no doubt in my mind that the employers who were represented,
by the way, by key and very important employer organisations are
going to be able to get the information and participate in the
information campaign that we are going to unfold or start spreading
around. They will in the end, do self-compliance and will implement
the national minimum wage as effectively as we expect it to be.
Thank you very much.
Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, let me first thank you for this opportunity
to engage with the Deputy President on something that is close to
the hearts of many of us who are concerned with the poverty in the
country. I looked at the report that came from Nedlac, and on point
21 of this report, I noted with the appreciation, the establishment
of a national minimum wage commission which is in line with the
Competitions Act, particularly, at sections 19 and 14. You have also
asserted that the national minimum wage law would be presented in
this House.
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We also note that section 7,5 of that report is talking about an
independent authority to monitor the impact and to adjust the
national minimum wage. You or the report has also made reference to
the national minimum wage expert panel. Now, our question, obviously
as the government which is accountable to the people, would be to
hear from you, Deputy President:
What is the progress that has been made, vis-à-vis, the
establishment of this panel of experts? I am asking this precisely
because, we are deeply concerned about the efficiency and the
effectiveness of the inspectors on their own, to ensure compliance.
Compliance is important for us. We therefore want to get the
certainty that indeed, there would be a support also from the expert
panel. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chair, the panel of experts is, in part,
going to be looking at the specific issues that we believe still
need to be looked at. In getting to where we are, we have asked the
panel of advisors, which the Deputy President has appointed, and
they are composed of experts from a number of fields and areas. In
many ways, they have helped us to get where we got to.
Whereas a number of members kept complaining about, when we are
going to finalise the national minimum wage, that panel assisted us
a great deal to get to that point. The delivery was done within two
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years rather than within eight years that took other countries in
the world like Germany. Also, that panel of experts advisors have
been asked to look very closely to specific number of issues like a
minimum number of hours a person will need to work in order to get
the minimum wage that we have agreed on, which is a R20 an hour.
They are also going to be able to look at a number of other issues.
The department itself has presented a preliminary report and they
will also present a further report which will enable the national
minimum wage commission to arrive at a plan of implementation, and
also be able to scrutinise it to see the extent to which it is
effective.
Now, what we can take comfort from, is that we have taken care to
set up a number of structures that are going to assist us in
enforcing and engendering compliance on the national minimum wage.
This is going to be such an important area of South African life,
because it involves the earnings of the ordinary people many of whom
have been earning way below the R20 an hour level.
It is so important that we can’t leave it just to chance. We are
going to ensure that the implementation and compliance is rigorous,
robust and is carefully managed. Therefore, we are going to be
making sure that we get advice from all quarters. The department
itself is gearing itself up to implement this huge task. The
national minimum wage, as you may have heard, is going to benefit
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6,6 million workers in our country. So, compliance across a number
of sectors is therefore going to be critical and key in all this.
The national minimum wage commission would be busy with that, the
department itself, the experts that will also be engaged in all this
and the Nedlac itself is going to be monitoring the implementation
of the national minimum wage. I would also guess that the various
other structures, including the Parliament, will need to focus the
attention on the implementation of the national minimum wage.
So, in the end, what we are saying to the employers is that, there
isn’t going to be any place to hide from implementing the national
minimum wage. We would therefore not countenance the lack of
compliance by the employers because, it is very important; it is
very key and it is the process that is going to lift the earnings of
a number of our people. So, we will want to see compliance of the
national minimum wage by the employers, and we are going to ensure
that it is complied with. Thank you very much.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, Deputy President, you know that there
is a public opinion out there that sometimes you always dodge or
fail to give concrete answers. They say that you speak English, but
there are no facts coming out. The people want to hear answers from
you.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Julius, please get closer to your
mike!
Mr J W W JULIUS: The people want to hear pronouncements from you,
Deputy President. They also want you to take a strongest stance to
give principled answers and not just give somewhat vague answers in
the middle of your pronouncements. I just thought that I would like
you to know about this public opinion. It is out there.
Deputy President, hon Makue also asked about the labour inspectors
and he also asked about them in his follow up question, yet, I
didn’t hear your answer. My question will then be around the
enforcement of compliance with the national minimum wage, which is a
huge challenge in our country. You also made mentioned to it as
being a bit skewed in the country that we are in. We have sufficient
inspectors according to the experts, but it’s a bit skewed. We do
have a challenge in terms of the inspectors in our country.
The scientific research to this question that is referred to by hon
Makue, also proposes the revision of the inspection as well as the
quality and the quantity of labour inspectors. So, are there any
plans in place to review the inspection and the enforcement
procedures to improve the quality and the quantity of labour
inspectors? Thank you, Chair.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I will once again seek to answer this question
as directly as I did. Now, when you say that, you are inviting me to
answer it in isiXhosa.
Sendiza kuyiphendula ngesiXhosa ngoku. Andazi nokuba uza kundiva
kusini na? Kodwa iza kuxaka. [Now I’m about to answer you in
isiXhosa. I don’t know whether you will understand me. But you will
be confused.]
Let me try it in English then. I did allude to the fact that, when
the Department of Labour started doing its own research, it realised
that we are going to have a challenge when it comes to the
inspectorate. But, that is strength in itself because the department
immediately realised that we are going to have a challenge and that
we are going to, in a way, retool and further empower our
inspectors.
What is going to stand in the stead of our inspectorate is that,
they are now going to be policing, if you like to put it that way,
one minimum wage rather than a plethora of them. I did say that, and
I say it again that, rather than having a host of minimum wage
levels, the inspectors are now going to be focusing on one.
Therefore, their technical ability is not going to be so challenged
because they will be focusing on one minimum wage across the various
sectors.
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One of the challenges that we need to address is just the ratio of
the inspectors across the various provinces of our country. This
will happen because, where there are many more workers, the number
of inspectors are fewer; where there are fewer workers, we find that
we have deployed even more inspectors on a ratio, say of a 100 000
workers.
For instance, in the Northern Cape, we found that we have more
inspectors than we do have in the Western Cape, Gauteng, KwaZuluNatal, and in the Eastern Cape areas, like Port Elizabeth and East
London. We therefore are going to address that and increase the
inspectorate. We will then make the inspectorate much more rigorous.
Yes, indeed, their technical ability is also going to be improved.
Improving their technical ability is not going to be so difficult.
In the end, the inspectors are going to be taking this task on quite
vigorously, because they will be dealing with one minimum wage, as I
have said. At the same time, they are going to be imbued with the
determination to ensure that the minimum wage is enforced, because
it is going to lead to the improvement of life of more than
six million workers in our country.
This is how we expect our civil servants to behave. We expect them
to put the people first and to apply the Batho Pele principles. As
much as that there are some challenges, we are already looking
forward on how these challenges can be resolved and how they can be
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addressed. I cannot be more direct than this. I have provided a
direct answer as anyone to whom you could have asked this question.
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, Deputy President, I think that you
appreciate the emphasis on the compliance issue. I mean you know
that the issue of 40 hours, vis-à-vis, 45 hours per week is the
issue of compliance in terms of sectoral determination has always
been a thorny issue. Also, the issue of universal access, vis-à-vis,
universal compliance becomes an important issue.
In this case, you have correctly identified that advocacy might be
one of the tools that might assist. Is this advocacy campaign going
to take mould of the stakeholder involvement in the manner that you
have been able to do? I am asking this because; we have seen that
over the period you have been able to have these in a better
direction. All the stakeholders were there to find each other in the
process.
Is this advocacy campaign going to take the same mold? That is my
question. Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, yes, the challenges on compliance are
recognised, and the ILO has been very helpful in giving an analysis
of our current status. Out of that analysis, we have been able to
see our own weaknesses as a country and the Department of Labour has
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owned up to them. Inevitably, this is going to lead us to being able
to address the weaknesses, and we are going to be focusing more on
the compliance.
Hence, having negotiated the strength of this analysis, which is not
an end product which has just been imposed on industry, everyone and
the labour in the government, it is a commonly and jointly agreed
consensus which all participants, particularly the employers. They
are now going to own and make sure that they propagate amongst their
own members. So, the employer’s organisation who participated
actively in this, are going to do precisely that.
To overly on top of that, as the government, we are going to
commence an extensive campaign, as you have correctly said, of
spreading an information and of engaging. Therefore, it is not only
to be spreading of information, but also an engagement of the
employer and workers in various parts of the country. It is also a
campaign which a number of us are going to participate in, like
myself, the Minister, the Deputy Minister and many others are going
to participate in.
Obviously, we will not be able to go to all the four corners of the
country, but we are going to go to as many areas. Also, the Minister
will soon be commencing this to as many areas as possible, to
consult with people to spread the information, to have discussions
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and also to deal with some of the challenges that the various
stakeholders in this working sector have been experiencing.
So, there is going to be an active participation and an active
engagement in addressing this issue because, you correctly said that
compliance has always been a big challenge when it comes to
implementing; even the current wage determinations that the
Department of Labour always comes up with. Thank you very much.
Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, Motlatsamoporesidente, ke lebogela fa
o netefatsa gore kgang ya bonnye jwa seelo sa megolo e tlile go
tsenngwa tirisong; le fa seno se ne se sa solofediwa ke ope mo
Aforikaborwa ntle le mokgatlo wa ANC. Motlatsamoporesidente, dipotso
ya ka mo go wena ke gore: A wena jaaka o le Motlatsamoporesidente, o
ka kgona go tshela ka bonnye jwa madi a a kana ka R3500 ka kgwedi?
Gape, a o bona gore batho ba rona ba bantsho ba ka itshedisa botoka
ka madi ao?
Ke eng jaaka moeteledipele o sa dirise maatla a gago go netefatsa
gore rona re le Maloko a Palamente, a diporofense le bo meyara ba bo
masepala, bontlhangwe jwa dituelo tsa rona bo kgaolwe? Seno, se ka
diriwa gore go netefadiwe gore bontlhabongwe jwa madi a re a bonang
jaaka baeteledipele, bo ya kwa bathong gore ba tle ba kgone go ka
itshedisa botoka.
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Ke eng o sa netefatse gore molao o a fetolwa; gore karolo ya dituelo
tseo re di newang jaaka Maloko a Palamente di fokodiwe? Ke botsa
jaana gonne re ikarabela mo bathong ba ba re tlhophileng, ba ba
tshwanang le badiri ba ba maemo a kwa tlase jaaka badiredi kwa
malapeng le badiredi ba lookwane ba ba tlhokang madi ao. Ke a
leboga.
MOTLATSAMOPORESIDENTE: Modulasetilo, ke rata go leboga thata puo
kgotsa potso e e tlhagisiwang ke motl Mokwele. A ke simolole jaana
ke bue gore, ruri gompieno ke a go leboga fa o bua sentle jaana. Ke
netefaditse kgang e ke
buileng ka yona fano le e o neng o nthoga ka
yona. O ne o rogakana ebile o bua gore ga go sepe se ke se dirang.
Ke ile ka ganetsana le wena ka go go itsise gore re ntse re dira.
Moh T J MOKWELE: Motlatsamoporesidente, fa o sa itse puo ya batho o
seka wa e buwa. Ga ke ise ke go roge. Ke botsa fela gore, o tlile go
diragatsa leng jaaka o tshwanetse? (Translation of Setswana
paragraphs follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, Deputy President, I thank you for
confirming that the issue of the national minimum wage will be
implemented; thanks to the ANC and no one else. Deputy President, my
questions to you: Can you survive with a minimum of R3500 on a
monthly basis? Furthermore, do you see our fellow black people
surviving on that amount?
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Why are you not exercising your powers, as a leader, to ensure that
a portion of the salaries for Members of Parliament, in provinces
and mayors from municipalities, is deducted? This will ensure that
we, as leaders, give back to the people so that they will be able to
have a better life.
I am suggesting this because we are accountable to the people who
have elected us; people such as the lower class workers - domestic
workers and petrol attendants - because they need that money. Thank
you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I would like to thank hon Mokwele
for her question. Let me start by saying, in all honesty, I thank
you today for speaking very well. I confirmed an issue I once spoke
about here, even though you were insulting me. You were insulting me
to the extent you told me that I am doing nothing. I disagreed with
you and informed you that we have been working.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy President, if you do not understand people’s
language, do not use it. I have never insulted you. I was only
asking you as to when were you going to implement as it is
required.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: This is not a point of order, but I
think that the message has gone through.
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MOTLATSAMOPORESIDENTE: Ke leboga fa o bua gore o ne o sa nthoge, le
gore magareng ga rona tlhompho e santse e le gona jaaka go
tshwanetse. Go araba potso e o e botsang ya gore go ka nna jang gore
bontlhabongwe jwa tuelo ya rona jaaka Maloko a Palamente go kgaolwe
gore madi a neelwe batho bao ba dikobo dikhutshwane.
Seno, ga se se se ka diriwang ke maloko a puso fela. Palamente ka
kakaretso e tshwanetse gore e ithaope gore tuelo ya maloko e kgaolwe
kgotsa e fokodiwe. Gape, badiredi ba Palamente ka kakaretso ba
tshwanetse ke go tshwaela ka ga seo. Re tshwanetse go dumalana ka
kgang ya gore dituelo tsa maloko di isiwe kwa tlase. (Translation of
Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am happy to hear that you were not
insulting me and that there is still respect between us as it should
be. To answer your question with regard to a portion from our
salaries to be deducted, as Members of Parliament, to help
impoverished people.
These cannot be done only by government officials. Parliament as a
whole needs to offer for members’ salaries to be deducted.
Furthermore, all employees of Parliament need to comment on this. We
all need to agree on this issue.]
Let me go back to the issue that you were raising, hon Mokwele, by
making clear that, the minimum wage that was finally agreed to is
not a living wage. A living wage is far above the minimum wage.
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Also, this is a matter which the organised labour in our country has
been fighting for. That struggle and the fight will carry on because
the national minimum wage is not a living wage.
Indeed, we are not expecting that many of our people are now going
to say that they have achieved what can give them a decent life.
That cannot be the case! It is a wage below which we are saying that
no worker should earn. Many people see it as a very good start.
Obviously, everyone would have wanted to earn a minimum wage which
is far above that.
At the same time, we needed to create and have a balance between
wage inequality as well as ensuring that the minimum wage that will
be paid will not result in job losses. The danger that we are facing
in packing a minimum wage at a high level was that, a number of
businesses would have retrenched our people or they would have
shared jobs.
We therefore concluded that our objective is not for people to lose
jobs. Our critical and important objective is to ensure that we deal
with wage inequality and that we have to start somewhere. Now, this
minimum wage is going to be increased on an ongoing basis through
the activities and the work of the minimum wage commission.
What we have succeeded in doing is that, for the first time in our
country, the demand that was raised in 1955 by those who drafted the
Freedom Charter is that we now going to have a national minimum wage
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as from 1 May 2018. That in itself must be seen as a significant
development in our country. The rest of the work will obviously need
to be done by the trade unions as they demand a living wage going
forward.
Let me say this as I conclude, hon Mokwele, the other issue that is
going to be looked at is the issue of the comprehensive social
security that has been raised by the trade unions and the members of
the community. The government and the business community have agreed
that we need to address this. So, already you can see that this is
the embryonic start of the process which is going to lead South
Africa to be dealing effectively with the issue of inequality.
In other countries, once they have the national minimum wage the
levels of inequality started going down and therefore, we expect the
same to happen in our country. Essentially, we are on a path to
effectively deal with the issue of income inequality.
Ke a leboga Mma, fa le wena o bone gore re dirile sentle fa re bile
ra bona gore go nne le bonnye jwa seelo sa megolo ya bosetšhaba mo
Aforikaborwa. Seno re se lebogela rotlhe. Ke a leboga. (Translation
of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Thank you Ma’am for realising that we did well by taking a decision
on the need to have a national minimum wage in South Africa. We are
all grateful for that. Thank you.]
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Violence against foreign nationals
3.
Mr L B Gaehler (Eastern Cape: UDM) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether the past and recent acts of violence against foreign
nationals negate or compromise South Africa’s commitment to
the concept of universal rights (details furnished); if not,
what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the
relevant details;
(2) whether the ambivalence of Government as to whether these
are xenophobic or criminal activities undermines attempts to
address the matter as an affront to all humanity; if not,
what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the
relevant details?
CO82E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, government has been
unequivocal in condemning acts of violence against foreign nationals
who live in our country. Government has been working together with
various stakeholders to prevent acts of violence against all these
people. This has involved policy interventions, community
engagements and targeted crime and combating prevention. Guided by
the ministerial committee on migration which is chaired by the
Minister in the Presidency, Jeff Radebe, a multipronged strategy is
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underway. South Africa’s immigration and refugee policy is being
reviewed.
Another area is the development of an integration policy for foreign
nationals who are living in South Africa, an ongoing sustained
dialogue with representatives of immigrant communities.
When it comes to issues that have to do with criminality, Operation
Fiela, through the security structure, has undertaken intensive
crime combating and prevention operations targeting hot spots in our
country and all the provinces. This has taken place alongside
briefings to councillors on their role in preventing attacks. It has
also involved engagement with churches, nongovernment organisations,
NGOs, political parties, traditional organisations and communitybased structures. Engagement with immigrant communities has also
happened. Public campaigns that have been aimed at preventing
attacks on foreign nationals have also taken place in various parts
of our country where we have actively engaged with our own people
particularly in areas where foreign nationals have been attacked
that they should desist from doing so.
At the same time government continues to work against xenophobia,
against racism, against sexism and other related intolerances
through a number of manifestations such as izimbizo, community
conversations and other campaigns. We recognise that communities, by
and large, have raised serious concerns about the involvement of
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some members of foreign national communities in criminal activities.
We cannot allow these concerns to be used to fuel xenophobia and to
fuel hatred and acts of intolerance against foreign nationals. A
person who commits a crime is a criminal regardless of their
nationality. Such a person could be a South African or it could be a
foreign national, but if you commit a crime you are acting in a
criminal manner and we will not say you are doing so because you
come from such and such a country. We invite all our people to work
together as South Africans and foreign nationals to rid South Africa
of crime in all its forms. And this we say insisting that we should
not be fuelling hatred and intolerance against people from other
countries.
I have always said that when many of our people and our leaders were
forced into exile they were welcomed with open arms in a number of
countries. Many countries not only on the African continent, but
globally and we should also have the same level of tolerance and
understanding and be able to welcome people from other countries
with open arms. Indeed, in many parts of our country that is the
case. Many people from other countries are well welcomed. They are
warmly welcomed and we coexist with them in the best of ways. These
challenges we have only faced in a number of areas and we are
saying, regardless of whatever the challenges are, we cannot and
should not be attacking people from other countries. We should look
at them as our brothers and sisters. If there are problems as they
will always be in life, we need to find ways in which we can solve
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those problems and we have a plethora of institutions that are well
geared to enabling us to solve these challenges. They range from the
SA Police Service, the Human Rights Commission and a whole range of
others which we can engage to address these types of problems.
The call is that all of us, both foreign nationals and South
Africans, should live in harmony and be tolerant of one another
regardless of where we come from. Thank you very much.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Siyabulela Sekela Mongameli ngempendulo entle olu
hlobo. [Thank you Deputy President, for the clear and precise
answer.]
As a country we have emerged from a struggle that ushered in the
Constitution that ensures that universal rights are applicable to
all human beings globally. In this regard, how do our systems of
immigrants management and control systems as well as our criminal
justice system help us to achieve this constitutional obligation –
systems that will also ensure that South Africans are not abused by
illegal immigrants? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, we have a number of systems
as well as practices that should enable us to treat all our people,
but particularly people from foreign countries, very well in our
country.
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The other important thing which I mentioned earlier is that we have
set up a ministerial team that is being led by Minister Jeff Radebe,
which is looking very closely at the issue of migration. We have set
up this team to look at various aspects of the challenges that not
only South Africa faces, but challenges that many other countries
face. This is a challenge that we have found that a number of
countries face and in our case we have been an oasis that has drawn
to our shores a number of people from various countries. We need to
come up with proper systems and proper practices that are going to
give meaning to our constitutional architecture. The constitutional
architecture that we have dictates that we should not only respect
the rights of people who live in this country, but also promote
those rights. Even people who come from foreign countries have
rights and we not only have to protect them, but we also have to
promote them and make sure that South Africa, as part of the
citizenry of the world, lives in such a way that we promote and
uphold the rights of all those people who live here. We have our
Constitution to rely on, but we also have our immigration laws to
rely on - immigration laws that are being looked as I speak through
the structure that the Minister is heading. We are looking at a
variety of things including economic participation in our country,
the social integration in South Africa as well as the extent to
which they enjoy their human rights and how they are legalised and
how they are properly integrated in South Africa.
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On that score we think that we are on the right path. We think we
are on the path of giving meaning and adherence to our
constitutional construct and we don’t think that we are violating
that. We are now focussing on making sure that our own behaviour as
South African citizens vis-à-vis people from other nations is in
consent with our Constitution that we do not violate their rights as
much as we don’t want our rights to be violated when we live in
their spaces.
What started happening in Nigeria, for instance, when Nigerian
citizens started reacting against people who work for South African
businesses in their own country, was a very sad moment for us. It
demonstrated to us the real challenge and the risk that we will be
exposed to as South Africans if we were to start attacking foreign
nationals in our country because that could lead to retaliation from
those people from foreign countries. So, we need to walk this tight
path and tight road very, very carefully.
The good thing is that we have had meetings with representatives of
various countries and we think we are finding each other and we
should be able to find a method and a system to which we continue
promoting each other’s rights wherever we are. Thank you very much.
Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Phini likaMongameli
wezwe lokhu kungqubuzana kwabafowethu nodadewethu abasemazweni
angaphandle kweNingizimu Afrika bekuyinto eyenzeka kakhulu laphaya
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ezindaweni ezisemadolobheni; okuhambe kwahamba ngesikhathi kwenzekake kwase kutholakala ukuthi abaningi babo manje sebakhile ezindaweni
zasemakhaya. Abanye bayahweba kakhulu ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Umbuzo
wami ke mhlonishwa ukuthi yini esiyenziwe uhulumeni ukuhlomisa
amakhosi nezinduna okuyibona abanikeza amalungelo omhlaba ezindaweni
zasemakhaya ukuze konke okwenzekayo kube ngokusemthethweni, bangabi
sesimweni la bezotholakala sebenikeza abalungelo ebantwini
abangenayo imvume yokuhlala eNingizimu Afrika ikakhulukazi ngoba
lokhu kungqubuzana okuningi kudalwa yiyo imibango yokuqophisana
ngezinsiza eziyimvela kancane. Manje uhulumeni wenzani-ke ngoba
uhulumeni waseNingizimu Afrika uyaye athathe sengathi sonke
singabasemadolobheni kanti cha, nathi abasemakhaya sinamagunya,
nokuphila namalungelo afanayo nalaba abasemadolobheni. Ngakho-ke
yini eyenziwa uhulumeni ukunikeza amandla amakhosi nezinduna ukuze
konke kube semthethweni. Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo.
USEKELA MONGAMELI: Mam’ uSihlalo ngiyabonga, ngibonga impela ...
(Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy President, these
attacks between our brothers and sisters from South Africa and
foreign nationals is more popular in urban areas; after this
happened most of them became residents in the rural areas. Most of
them have businesses in the rural areas. My question hon is what has
the government done to empower the traditional leaders who are
responsible for land rights in rural areas so that all that is
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happening is done legally; so that they don’t find themselves giving
rights to people who do not have permits to be South African
citizens, especially since these attacks stem from contestation in
respect of the scarcity of resources. What is the government doing,
because normally the South African government assumes that we are
all from the urban areas? We in the rural areas also have rights and
we have a right to live like people in the urban areas. So, what is
being done by the government to give power to the traditional
leaders so that everything they do is legalised. Thank you,
Chairperson.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you madam Chairperson, thank you very
much ...]
The issue of how we interface with our traditional leaders, the
natural leaders of our people in various parts of the country, is a
matter that the government takes very seriously because traditional
leaders play a very important role in the broader and general
governance of our country. Their needs therefore need to be
addressed as we address the needs of all South Africans.
In this regard the discussions that are happening between the
government and traditional leaders are ongoing and they touch
precisely on the issues that you have raised. Traditional leaders
have raised key questions that revolve precisely around those
issues. Discussions are going to be ensuing.
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Let me say that the economic empowerment of our people right across
the length and the breadth of the country is something that
government takes very seriously, more particularly the rural areas
where there is even a greater scarcity of resources. We want to
address it in such a way that the issue of scarcity of resources as
well as opportunities is so well addressed that our people have a
sense that the government is also taking care of their interests.
How is this happening? It is happening through our provincial and
local government structures. It is a matter of joy and pleasure for
some of us to hear how well a number of traditional leaders, in fact
the majority of traditional leaders, work well with our local
government leaders, councillors and mayors in many parts of the
country. That is the case. It is also a joy to hear how well they
work with our provincial leadership as well. I know for a fact that
our premiers spend quite a lot of time devoting quite a lot of
attention to the issues and the challenges that our traditional
leaders face.
The structures of government are so geared to be able to address
these matters at close range. At national level government is
actively involved in addressing those as well. The President, for
instance, seeks to spend time meeting with traditional leaders as
well as the Ministry that is involved in matters that has to do with
governance, the Department of Co-operative Governance and
Traditional Affairs, Cogta, the Minister and the Deputy Ministers
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spend a lot of time addressing these issues. Are there challenges?
The answer is, yes; there are a number of challenges. Some of them
are often economic in nature. Are we trying to find solutions to
these challenges? The answer is, yes; we continuously try to find
solutions so that we don’t leave gaps in between. My answer to you
is that there is active participation in addressing a number of
these challenges. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Chair and Deputy President, it is also
important to highlight that the socioeconomic conditions that South
Africans find themselves in should not necessarily lead them to
behave in the manner that we have seen in recent times with the
result being the sporadic attacks on foreign nationals. I am happy
to hear that you are, indeed, also not characterising these attacks
as xenophobic, as South Africans do not have extreme hatred for
their African counterparts.
However, we also welcome from your response the multipronged
strategy that is forthcoming. We also welcome this access of
Operation Fiela that has dealt with the criminal element in so far
as these attacks are concerned.
One important area that I would like my question to focus on is that
prior to that, the House of Representatives of the Federal Republic
of Nigeria are in the country and we met with them yesterday where
we have reached an agreement that South Africans are warm, welcoming
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people, and that we live side by side with our fellow African
brothers and that they should not be fearful of us.
However, is it not perhaps important that government has a very
targeted approach over and above the ministerial task team that has
been established to ensure that these sporadic attacks are attended
to before and not to be reacted to at all times? I know the
interpretation of many will be that, oh, Motlashuping is looking for
a job for himself - not necessarily that.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Motlashuping, your question,
please.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, I think when we deal with an
important matter like this one there should never be any member
amongst us as we are all leaders who should ever think that by
coming with solutions they are looking for jobs for themselves. This
is not an area where you can promote your own self interests. Here
we are promoting a collective interest and that is one interest
only, the interests of all South Africans. So we will welcome your
active participation in helping us to address this problem.
I particularly welcome the suggestion that shouldn’t we before all
these things happen take proactive action in areas that we know
could flare up. Shouldn’t we be coming up with strategies and
tactics of finding ways of being forward dealing with challenges
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that we can see are beginning to simmer? This was particularly
articulated by one of the premiers of our country in another area
who said that these matters require proaction. It requires that
should where we need to do real engagement work, engagement work
amongst our own people as well as foreign nationals. As you
correctly say, inherently South Africans are not xenophobic. We do
not have an inbuilt or a natural hatred against other people. We
have always seen our country as a country that is welcoming to all
people from various parts of the world. That is the general DNA that
our country has. This is how we are made up. As South Africans we
are warm, we are welcoming and we are therefore as Madiba once said,
nobody is born hating another person. IN order to hate somebody you
have to be taught to hate. In this case South Africans have never
been given lessons on hating other people. As South Africans we do
not hate other people, in fact, we love other people and we embrace
them. This is the ethos that we must be playing out. This is our
orientation as people and it is also deeply embedded not only in our
natural disposition, but also in our constitutional architecture. We
have that in our Constitution, to be open, to be welcoming, to
respect the rights of other people and to be tolerant. That is what
makes us who we are, South Africans. Thank you very much.
Mr S M GANA: Mutshamaxitulu, ndzi khensa nkarhi wa wena leswaku ndzi
kota ku vutisa Xandla xa Presidente xivutiso. [Chairperson, I thank
you for the opportunity to pose a question to the Deputy President.]
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Deputy President, you will agree that given where we come from as a
country, these attacks on foreign nationals, xenophobia, is a
complete low point for us. There is one of the things that you said
and I keep on hearing it over and over again. Whenever there is an
issue happening in government in this country, this government that
you are part of always prescribes an interministerial team. It is
not the first time that foreign nationals were attacked in South
Africa. This government that you are part of always come and say we
will institute an interministerial team. But the recommendations are
never implemented. Even if there is an ad hoc committee probing the
violence against foreign nationals we keep on pilling the
recommendations.
What makes you believe that this interministerial team that Minister
Radebe is supposedly to head will deliver different results? In
2015, your government said there will be an interministerial team
and there was no result.
Deputy President, I also want to check with you with regard to the
statement that was made yesterday by the ANC Youth League in KwaZulu
–Natal that there must be a big wall that is built between KwaZuluNatal and Mozambique. Do you support such kind of statements?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!
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Mr S M GANA: Chairperson, I might be a special guest, but members
should not howl when I speak. I want to check as I said. Deputy
President, do you support it?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon, Makashule Gana, you are given two
minutes. In that two minutes you make your motivation and ask your
supplementary question arising from the response of whoever you have
put a question to. You should have confined yourself to that. Your
question, please!
Mr S M GANA: Ndza khensa swinene [Thank you very much], Chairperson.
The statement of the ANC Youth League is linked to this because you
are talking about attacks on foreign nationals. Do you support the
building of a wall between South Africa and Mozambique?
Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. [I thank you, Chairperson.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Makashule Gana is our special
delegate from Gauteng. Unfortunately, it is his first time putting a
question since I have been here. He has put a number of questions to
you. You are at liberty to answer whichever you choose. That is the
privilege we will grant you, hon Gana for being a maiden in the
House.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson,
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Tatana Gana, ha khensa swinene. Nakambe ha mi amukela ePalamende.
Ndzi twa va vula leswaku i siku ra n’wina rosungula hikwalaho ha mi
amukela. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)
[Mr Gana, we thank you very much. We also welcome you in Parliament.
I have heard that it is your maiden appearance in Parliament, thus
we warmly welcome you.]
With regard to the various questions that you have raised, when the
government set up these interministerial committees the real
objective is to bring people together - people who are working in
silos in different areas of work. When you bring various ministries
together you are breaking down those silos and say we want you to
work together on a specific issue. In doing so you are able to bring
greater wisdom, greater participation and greater talent. I do not
agree with.
Tatana Gana, a ndzi pfumeli leswaku tikomiti ta nkarhinyana leti hi
nga tshama hi ti vumba ku sungula eka mhaka leyi a ti kalangi ti
tirha. A hi swona, ti tirhile. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph
follows.)
[Mr Gana, I do not concur with you that the ad hoc committees that
we have formed previously on the issue did not perform their duties.
It is not true, they did perform their duties.]
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For instance, if you look at the way in which in the past we have
been able to curb and to dose the flames of these attacks that were
being launched against people from foreign countries, this happen
because of these types of structures, particularly this one. It was
able to get our people in various formations to work together, to
co-operate at community level, faith-based organisations, the police
and various other structures work together to resolve these
problems.
Clearly, as they say how much of the mountain you see depends on
where you are standing. If you are standing in a place where you
only see a little bit of a mountain that is all you will ever see.
We often say that position yourself at a place where you can see the
whole of the mountain. Because when you do that is when you will see
that real work is happening. The team that is being led by Minister
Jef Radebe is really, really coming up with innovative solutions
that also involve a number of other people from the various national
groupings as well. That is what is happening.
With regard to the issue that you have raised more sharply about
whether we support the building of the wall between Mozambique and
KwaZulu-Natal, we are a nation that does not build walls.
[Applause.] We do not believe in building walls. That defines who we
are. We are South Africans and we do not subscribe to the building
of walls and we say South Africa is an open country and when people
come here we must deal with them with dignity and respect within the
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parameters of our Constitution and also within the parameters of our
own values. We have adopted a set of values that arm us to deal
correctly with people from other nations. So we will never subscribe
to building walls. Besides that we don’t have the money to build
walls. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Plans to rescue chicken industry
4.
Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Deputy President:
Whether any plans are in place to rescue the South African
chicken industry from closure (details furnished); if not, why
not; if so, (a) what plans and (b) what are the further
relevant details?
CO81EThe
DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, government will do
everything in its power to ensure that there is no factory closures
or job losses in the poultry industry. Within the provisions of the
World Trade Organisation’s rules and South Africa’s trade agreement,
South Africa will vigorously deploy trade measures to protect our
poultry industry from dumping and unfair trade practices. Working
closely with the private sector, government will deploy incentives
and other support measures to protect the industry to maintain
production capabilities, save jobs as well as to ensure food
security. In short, South Africa will vigorously defend this
industry against dumping and unfair trade practices.
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Government has established two task teams to urgently address the
situation within the South African poultry industry. The first is a
government task team while the second one is a much broader task
team that includes representatives from government, business and
labour. The partners are working in close collaboration on this
matter, particularly on the programme to address the complex and
multiple challenges that are facing the domestic poultry industry.
It is critical that South Africa preserves its production capacity
across the entire poultry value chain. This is in our view important
because poultry products are a critical source of protein for the
majority of our people and the industry is also a very, very
important employer in our economy.
The task teams are therefore developing an economic analysis of the
existing situation across the entire value chain from upstream with
regards to feed stock production, poultry production and value
addition through the retail and logistic sectors. They are also
developing a plan of action to support the industry encompassing a
range of supply and demand side initiatives and measures. Areas that
are under consideration include a range of trade measures to support
the industry within the rules of the World Trade Organisation, WTO,
and our own trade agreements in this regard. Industrial financing
and incentive measures to support the industry with a range of
reciprocal conditions including transformation, labour retention as
well as investment.
15 MARCH 2017
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The other area is to look at the measures that will lower the costs
of inputs and raise competitiveness. As we all know, the poultry
industry is a global industry and is hugely competitive. Other
countries are well-endowed with processes such as lower input costs
or production costs. In our case this turns to go up a little bit.
We are also looking at measures to raise aggregate demand through
localisation of public procurement and a stronger collaborative
export process.
The task team is also engaging with a wider range of stakeholders to
ensure that the views and interests of all stakeholders will
adequately be addressed in this matter. Significant progress has
been made by the task team and government will make further
announcements in this regard. Let me say to those who want to
dismiss the establishment of these task teams like hon Gana there. I
must say that they work and in this regard the products and the
results of the task teams like these will be made evident in due
time.
In working, government never wants to work in dictatorial manner. It
wants to work in an all inclusive manner and in a co-operative and
collaborative manner by engaging as many people as possible. We are
one of the most unique governments in the world in the way that we
exercise governance through consultation, collaboration and
inclusive interaction on a number of issues. If you can sit back and
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think about how this government goes about in doing things, you will
find that in the main we underpin everything we do through deep
collaboration where we get the views from many people. In this
poultry industry, the joy that the employers are having is that they
are engaging with government and labour as well. In this regard, the
task team will soon come up with what I believe will be good results
to secure the future of our poultry industry. Thank you very much.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, it seems
the wheels of your government are turning very slow - the wheels of
your task teams are really turning very slow. This is not a new
problem. This is a problem which started when South Africa relaxed
measures to accommodate the signing of the African Growth and
Opportunity Act, Agoa, somewhere in 2014 and 2015.
Already at the beginning of this year, it was estimated that before
the end of the first term of the year, 6 000 jobs in the industry
would already have been lost. At the beginning of the year in
Hammarsdale, Rainbow Chicken had already retrenched 1 250 employees,
in Limpopo the poultry industry at the beginning of the year
retrenched 1 000 employees, at the beginning of this year there was
a joint march by both Food and Allied Workers Union, Fawu and the SA
Poultry Association, Sapa, to alert government on these issues.
There are also issues pertaining to health hazards. It is reported
that the chicken from America, by the time it reaches South African
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markets, it is six weeks older than the locally produced chicken.
So, it is not just issues of losing jobs, but there are also health
issues. There are also no corn effects in that the maize in South
Africa is estimated in that half of it is bought by people in the
poultry industry. If people lose jobs and factories close down there
is a lot that is going to happen. Instead of saying maybe these are
the measures you are still thinking about ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your question, please?
Ms M S KHAWULA: In response to the problem that escalated especially
at the beginning of the year, what has government done? In Europe
what the European Union, EU, has done was to highly subsidise the
industry to protect it. What is the South African government doing
now because the problem is not for now, Deputy President? It started
long ago. Let us not think and do nothing, let us do something.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Khawula, I think you are raising a very
important issue which is urgent. You are essentially saying, act
urgently right now, because we are facing this haemorrhaging of jobs
and that is a message that is well received. What this task team is
doing is to look precisely at the type of incentivisation that can
be made available to a number of employers so that we can save the
jobs that are currently being lost. We are well aware of the problem
that you are articulating and we will be acting as quickly as you
are urging us to act.
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Yes, it comes from a long time ago. However, when it comes to Agoa,
in terms of the importation of chickens, I should say it could have
been much worse than what we have now because the demand was to
bring a bigger tonnage of chickens than what we got now and in the
end the agreement that was finally signed was much more favourable
to South Africa. But at the same time we need to buttress and
support our own local industry in the face of what is happening now
with the coming in of much cheaper chicken.
Clearly, the health issue is something that needs to be looked at.
It is a matter that our Health department also need to look at in
terms of the age of those chickens that are being brought in. My own
information is that, much as they are so many weeks old, the health
protocols are being observed to make sure that the lives of
consumers in South Africa are safeguarded. But clearly, the Health
department looks at things like that and they are well placed to
advise us. Thank you very much.
Man B T MATHEVULA: Mutshamaxitulu na Xandla xa Phuresidente, ndzi
vutisa leswaku xana a ku na ndlela yin’wana leyi mi nga yi tirhisaka
ku sivela leswaku tihuku leti taka ti huma eAmerika ku ta xavisiwa
etimakete ta hina, ti yimisiwanyana ti nga ha ngheni laha tikweni.
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Leswi swi endla leswaku vanhu va ka hina va heleriwa hi mitirho. Ku
swi
sivela
swi
ta
endla
leswaku
mitirho
ya
vona
yi
tshama
yi
hlayisekile.
XANDLA
XA
PHURESIDENTE:
Mutshamaxitulu,
hi
nga
vula
leswaku
swa
olova ku vula leswaku tihuku leti ti nga ha ngheni laha AfrikaDzonga.
Kambe,
lexi
nga
kona
hi
leswaku
tanihi
tiko
ra
Afrika-
Dzonga, hi xirho xa World Trade Organisation. Loko u ri xirho xa
World Trade Organisation, na wena u fanele ku pfula minyangwa ya
wena leswaku swirho leswin’wana swi kota ku ta xavisa tinhundzu ta
swona laha tikweni ra hina leswaku na hina hi ta kota ku xavisa ta
hina ematikweni ya vona.
Loko hi vula leswaku va nga ha tisi swixavisiwa swa vona, na vona va
nga vula leswaku loko hi nga lavi leswaku va tisa tihuku ta vona,
swi ta vula leswaku na hina a hi nga ha xavisi leswi hi swi endlaka
eka etindhawini ta vona. Leyi i milawu ya World Trade Organisation.
Tanihi
Afrika-Dzonga,
a
hi
hanyi
hexe
laha
misaveni,
kambe
hi
hanyisana na matiko man’wana. Hikwalaho ke, ku hava ... (Translation
of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)
[Ms B T MATHEVULA: Chairperson and Deputy President, I would like to
know if there is no other way that can be employed to prevent that
poultry
imported
from
the
US
that
is
sold
temporarily suspended from entering our country.
in
our
markets
be
15 MARCH 2017
PAGE: 56 of 84
This causes our people to lose their jobs. By preventing it will
ensure that their jobs are secured.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, we may say it is easy to say that
these
chickens
evident
is
must
that
no
South
longer
Africa
enter
South
is
member
a
Africa.
of
the
But
what
World
is
Trade
Organisation. When you are a member of the World Trade Organisation,
you are also obliged to open your doors so that other members are
able to trade their goods in our country so that we can trade ours
in their countries.
Should we say that they must no longer export their goods to us,
they may also say that if we don’t want them to, it would mean that
we should not trade our goods in their countries too. These are the
legislation of the World Trade Organisation. As South Africa, we do
not exist in isolation from the world, but co-exist in a global
community. For these reasons, there is no ...]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: ... not a single country that can say it is an
island. As we transact with the world, we are transacting in an
interconnected world.
The President of China, Xi Jinping, articulated this so well at the
Davos Forum when he said, rather than fear globalisation let us use
globalisation to empower ourselves and our own people. What actually
we should be doing is to see the extent to which we can use
globalisation to try to prevent job losses that we are suffering
15 MARCH 2017
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from now. However, we must also keep a door open to be able to trade
with other countries. He says, in the beginning they suffered
immensely, but it was when they started swimming in this ocean that
they could find their way around a lot easier by utilising
globalisation trading with the world in a much more effective way.
They have used it to grow their own economy.
I think the challenge for us is to see the extent to which we can
prevent job losses and also be able to sell what we produce in a
much bigger way to other countries. It is when we sell our goods,
what we grow and what we make to make to other countries that we
will be able to grow. We will not be able to grow on an insular
basis on our own where we look at ourselves and say that we close
our doors and windows to the world and just have our own trading
inside. We must use the world as a platform to trade with the world,
but at the same time protects ourselves. Thank you very much.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Deputy President, your responses were very good. The
imports of booming chicken from Europe and America are destroying
our poultry industry. You will remember very well that the textile
industry has been destroyed because we were loose. We just allowed
China to do what it wants. The same is happening with the booming
chicken. Worst of all, it is true what hon Khawula is saying. Some
of these chickens are not healthy. If you check with your Department
of Health, how many health inspectors do you have in your
municipalities?
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Today, we are sitting with an unhealthy nation because this
government allows anything to come into this country. Now, the
question is very clear: are you prepared to assist farmers in terms
of subsidy? America subsidises its farmers that is why they can
bring in these chicken at cheap. Worse of all, the chicken that
comes in here are boning portions that are not consumed by Americans
and they see it fit that we must consume it as South Africans.
Deputy President, you can like or not like a mad president like
President Trump, but there is one thing he says, Americans first.
Can you as the Deputy President today say that South Africans first
and then the rest? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I think all of us can say, yes,
South Africans first, but we operate in an interconnected world.
That is certainly true of our own position in the continent. We say
we seek to promote our interests as South Africans, but as we do so,
we do it as part of an integrated continent.
Clearly, these are issues that we are facing as we begin to confront
the real sort of impact of globalisation in a particular industry.
We did face it with the textile and clothing industry which was
almost our baptism of fire. Our clothing and textile industry was
hugely decimated. It decimated because other countries and, not only
China, but a number of other countries particularly South East Asia
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were producing textiles and clothes at a much cheaper rate. We need
to be wise. We had to be wise to see how best we can direct dealings
with local retailers and get them start focusing on purchasing from
local producers. We have seen employment levels in the clothing and
textile industry beginning to go up. Much more still needs to be
done so that we can regain the position that we once had. On the
clothing and textile there is hope, there is a lot that has been
done. There has also been subsidisation directed at that industry.
Clearly, when it comes to the farming industry it is something that
our Agriculture and our Trade and Industry departments are looking
at.
It so happens that when we begin to deal with the serious challenges
that we are dealing with, it begins to enables us to come up with
answers and strategies that will lay a very good foundation for us
to be able to grapple with the real issues that need to be grappled
with, like job loses and how we can assist our farmers to deal with
all these. All these matters are being dealt with and addressed by
the various structures and solutions are being found on an ongoing
basis. The good example is the clothing and textile industry where
solutions have been found. We have been able to come up with
solutions. Trade unions, producers and government managed to sit and
identify how they could assist that challenged industry. Similarly,
when it comes to the poultry industry the same will obtain. Thank
you very much.
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Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Deputy President, these task teams that you
mentioned slightly earlier, to me, really, seem be little too late
and really long outstanding. In 2012, which is almost four years
ago, the SA Poultry Association cautioned that more than 20 000 jobs
would be lost. Since then, more than 8 small and medium poultry
farms have closed down since the import of boning chicken has
increased up to 80%.
On the side of the mountain where I am standing, and excuse the pun,
what I and others see are thousands of people losing their jobs.
This is an industry where an average earner sustains ten people in a
household. It seems that you basically really have only two choices
- either to anger some of our most important European trade partners
or we watch our industry die slowly but surely. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: But there was no question, Mam.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, the question is that, it is either
one of those two solutions that we have. It doesn’t seem to be any
other because the task teams have achieved nothing. Four years later
there is a lot of talk, and on this side of the mountain we don’t
see any changes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Mam. Deputy President, the
hon member has made a statement.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, hon Chairperson, I don’t want to seem to
be flippant or dismissive of what you have said. With the greatest
respect, I have to say, what you have done is to articulate a
statement. If you have asked a question, you have given two answers.
So, I don’t know how best you want me to answer that statement. You
have effectively said, this is the situation that we are exposed to.
It is either we fight with our European trading partners or we just
countenance the losses of jobs.
What I said in my statement in chief or my answer in chief was that
we will seek to do everything to prevent further job losses. Through
these task teams that you don’t seem to like very much, we are doing
as much as we possible can. We are dealing here with a rather
difficult situation which has been well understood and articulated
to our partners in the task teams. Remember, government is not
acting alone in this task team, but it is acting together with the
labour union, the Food and Allied Workers Union, Fawu. The trade
union, Fawu, is just as concerned, if not more, as you are and as we
all are about job losses. They are very concerned and we are
interacting with them at a close range. Similarly, with the SA
Poultry Association is exactly the same thing. We are facing a
common problem which requires that we should come up with strategies
and answers.
It could be easy to close down our country and say, no, do not bring
in anything. There are retaliatory measures that could be taken
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against us. One of our Brazil, Russia, India, China and South
Africa, Brics, partners, Brazil, also sends us their poultry. We
could retaliate and say, you must no longer send your poultry. They
may say, fine, but you should no longer export anything to us. We
need to find a good balance.
Trading in the world trade systems is not as straightforward as one
thinks it is. It becomes problematic, as we all correctly say, when
we begin to countenance loss of jobs. This is precisely the issue
that we are spending time addressing and we are obviously trying to
find solutions to stem the loss of jobs by our people. That is our
primary focus. Our other primary focus is not to expose ourselves to
a trade war which could be launched against us. We could find
ourselves losing much more than what we are suffering now. We need
to have a balance. That is what happens in the trading system.
Someone referred to Donald Trump. They were saying, what he is doing
now of tearing up all agreements that America has had with other
countries. This is tantamount to a trade war. Indeed, other
countries are saying that war has now been declared against us, and
we therefore must engage in war. They say we are going to retaliate
in this way, that way and that way. Is that what we want? Some
people here are saying, yes, engage in a trade war. A war is a
terrible thing to get involved in because there is a lot of
collateral damage that could happen all around. We have to be
careful. We cannot be reckless, but be mindful that people are
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losing jobs. We have to stop that and stem that. Thank you, Madam
Chairperson.
Withdrawal from ICC
5.
Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Deputy President:
Whether the Government still intends to withdraw from the
International Criminal Court, following the ruling of the
Pretoria High Court that the withdrawal was unconstitutional;
if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what
actions have been taken in this regard?
CO78E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, government has noted the
judgement of the High Court relating to the notice of withdrawal
from Rome statutes. The High Court took the view that a notice of
withdrawal requires prior-Parliamentary approval before the cabinet
may implement its decision to withdraw from the international
agreement. The court emphasised that there is nothing patently
unconstitutional about the national executive policy decision to
withdraw from the Rome Statutes because it is within the powers of
the national executive to make such a decision.
What the court has ruled is on processed based grounds after careful
consideration, government has decided that the orders in this matter
will not be challenged. Cabinet has established a technical task
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team again to develop compliance road map to address what the High
Court considered to be the defects in the procedure preceding the
issue of the notice of withdrawal.
Government has therefore already written a letter to the UN
Secretary General to revoke the instrument of withdrawal from the
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The Minister of
Justice and Correctional Services has also withdrawn the
implementation of the Rome Statutes of the ICC Repeal Bill from the
National Assembly.
To reiterate what I said in this House in November last year;
government’s approach to the issue of the ICC is informed by
extensive experience of the demands and challenges of achieving
peace reconciliation and reconstruction particularly on our
continent, Africa.
South Africa is committed to the protection of human rights and to
the fight against impunity by anyone. The intention to withdraw from
the ICC should therefore be understood as a critic of the manner in
which the institution has functioned rather than a rejection of the
underlying values of the institution.
South Africa therefore will continue to work for peace, stability
and the equal protection of the human rights of all people. Thank
you.
15 MARCH 2017
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, thank you, Deputy President. We are
pleased that the government has given notice to the UN that we are
revoking our instrument of withdrawal from the ICC and that we
withdrew the implementation of the Rome Statute of the Criminal
Court - the repeal Bill from Parliament.
It is important for the government to abide by the rulings of the
court. We are however, disappointed with the leadership that we as a
country displayed where we took the haste and unconstitutional
decision to withdraw from the ICC without consultation and in a
doctorial manner that you Deputy President said that is not what the
government is doing in the previous question.
Firstly, thankfully our poor example was not followed on the
continent, only Burundi with its dismal human rights record
following suite to date. Now that you have signalled the technical
retreat with the notices to withdrawal; what is the South African
government long-term relationship with the ICC going to be; and what
can we expect as a renewed commitment to the human rights based
foreign policy, which was promoted by Nelson Mandela; and also
aligned with our constitutional democracy?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, our relationship with the
international bodies is largely based on our membership of the UN,
the ICC, and indeed many other substructures of the UN, like the
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Human Rights Commission, UNESCO, UNDP, and many others, which are
all substructures of the UN.
So, we continue to subscribe to the values of the UN and to the
Charter of the UN. What we had given notice about have been to
withdraw from the ICC, and it was largely based on the manner in
which we saw the ICC operating. Now, a court of our country has
ruled on this matter and we, in terms of our adherence to the rule
of law, respecting the decision of the judiciary we have said that
we will accede and subscribe to what the court has ruled on.
Therefore, we have withdrawn that notice but not only done that but
also withdrawn the Bill here. Clearly, we want to follow the process
and procedures that we need to follow.
Let me just say that what happened in the past was not wilfully
done, and not meant to sidestep any process, it was a mere
interpretation of our Constitution which the court had said should
have been looked at differently.
Now, what are we going to do? Are we going to continue with our
foreign policy process underpinned by respect for human rights? Of
course, we are. That is our ethos, and that is what drives us,
because what we seek to do is to implement the principles of our
Constitution. Having been ably led by led by Nelson Mandela on the
path of respecting human rights, this government and those that will
follow as led by the governing party will continue to do so. Human
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rights is the bedrock of our constitutional, and if you like,
ideological orientation. That is what guides us, which is part of
our ethos. So, we will never move away from that path, and we will
stick to that route that we have chosen for ourselves. This is not
an imposed route but a self-chosen route to ensure that we respect
the human rights of all people whether they live here in this
country or in other countries.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chairperson, now luckily, Deputy President, we all
agree that in a constitutional democracy the rule of law is deeply
rooted as part of that. Firstly, in this case I don’t consider the
decision by the executive to withdraw as a retreat. Would you say
the decision by the executive to withdraw is based on the respect
for the rule of law; which we all agree that courts in this country,
in a constitutional democracy like the one, are final arbiters of
legality and therefore when they have expressed a view all others
should follow.
I am saying this because I have read the court order which said: in
the possibility that the Constitution is silent, then Parliament
must express itself. It is a process issue and not a legalistic
issue.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, I have said and I am
prepared to repeat it again, yes, the government subscribe to the
rule of law. That we do unequivocally without any shred of doubt.
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When courts rule in our country, we have them as the final arbiter
of matters where we may have differences between ourselves as actors
and between structures of government. So, they are the final arbiter
and we subscribe to the rule of law. That is an important pillar of
our democracy.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, we fully appreciate, Deputy President,
that yes, the ICC has not always acted in a manner that is becoming
of an international institute, especially when it comes to issues
relating to third world countries. We have not always seen the ICC
reacting in a manner that we can say that they have not been biased.
However, having said that we must acknowledge that the ICC still
remain a deterrent to gross violations of human rights in many parts
of the world.
Now, having said all that, I think what is of grave concern to many
of us in South Africa is that in the event that we do decide to
withdraw from the ICC; tell us – give the country an assurance, give
us as members of this House the assurance that there are going to be
mechanisms in place that will be respected by governments of the
future that we will build mechanisms in place to ensure that there
will be not gross flouting, like we are seeing at the moment of the
Constitution with this present government.
Give us the assurance that there will be mechanisms in place to
ensure that there will not be any gross violation human rights in
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this country; gross, genocide even Xenophobia that will go as far as
ethnic cleansing and greater increase oppression of the people of
this country.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I can give assurance that this
governance will not countersense the violation of the rights of the
people living in this country; and indeed the violation of rights of
the human race; that I can give you assurance on. Much as we may
move ahead with the withdrawal from the ICC – you are absolutely
correct – the ICC plays a critical role.
It is the manner in which the ICC has been deporting itself,
particularly when it comes to people from developing economies. So,
that is the main issue but as regards us as a country we are not
only bound by the UN Charter but by the AU Charter as well. Our
continental charter is also a huge guide; our Constitution is a huge
guide and our own natural common laws and principles are a huge
guide. So, we have got a lot of checks and balances along the way in
relation to the observance of the human rights and not countenancing
gross violation of human rights. So, that assurance I can give you.
Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I think it is very difficult for you,
Deputy President, to make a commitment on behalf of future
governments of this country. It must be even more difficult for you
to make commitments on behalf of other African countries.
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Now, as we have said and you’ve said it yourself, the ICC is a very
important institution. At this stage there is no alternative for the
ICC with the same bite and the same powers, the African court of
human rights can make recommendations but it does not have the same
the same powers that the ICC has.
Having said that, it is important to bear in mind that we will not
be the only country leaving other African countries will follow. Do
you not find it concerning if there is no alternative in place that
can call leaders of other African countries or other countries in
the rest of the world to account that we leave at this stage before
having something in place to ensure that on our continent, at least,
human rights are respected.
That is the first thing, and at the same stage, my question goes to
the fact that I know South African not to be people who run away
from problems, would it not have been better to stay in the ICC and
lobby for a bettered institution if we have certain issues. It is
just concerning that we leave now and we leave other people on the
continent, not only our country and the rest of the world exposed to
possible human rights violations that can’t be prosecuted if we are
outside of the space of the ICC?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, the structure that we have
on the continent - much as you say it doesn’t have not teeth, and
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can only make recommendations is still a very important structure.
It is an African structure that with time will be able to be as
effective as we would want it to be. Now, that is one structure that
can act in the same way if not now but later and needs to be given
the right opportunity. Yes, you are right we never run away from any
problems but we are not the only ones, there are quite a few other
countries that have expressed their own concerns. I happened to have
had with the Prime Minister of a European country who is a member of
the ICC and in the course of that conversation when I met him he
said; I can understand exactly where you are coming from as South
Africans this in many ways will also send a very strong message to
the way the ICC functions. So, the ICC itself can have an
introspective look at how it functions and operates. And this will
in time be something that stands the ICC in good stead because the
ICC will then be able to having corrected itself become, once again,
that instrument that can be a loadstar and be attractive so that
many others can be part of it.
He also remarked that, is it not interesting that some of the
countries that are so forward when it comes to human rights are not
members and he sited one such major country which is a leader on the
human rights field, and he said; and they are not members, which is
concerning because their continued absence from being a member of
the ICC but preaching and standing on platforms and saying that
others should be subjected to the ICC is almost hypocritical.
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He said; these are matters that now that South Africa has taken this
stance need to be addressed. Because we often run away from
confronting such problems because the big countries in the world
that shout mostly about human rights are not members. That is the
debate that needs to ensue.
So, it is not only South Africa’s withdrawal from the ICC, we must
also address the other side of the story. I must say that I find
this to be cogent and I found it to be very honest that here I was
discussing with a Prime Minister of a leading country in Europe who
was open enough to have that type and that level of discussion with
me.
So there is a lot that we still need to talk about but we also have
a great instrument on the African continent that can be improved.
And maybe that is what we should start having a conversation about.
How best can we as Africans strengthen our own structure on the
African continent so that it is able to address African problems
which will also be addressed by Africans? Thank you, very much.
Provincial Development Plans aligned with NDP
6.
Mr C J de Beer (Northern Cape: ANC) asked the Deputy President:
Whether the Provincial Development Plans are aligned with the
National Development Plan in the current Medium Term Strategic
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Framework; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant
details?
CO87E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Chairperson, the success of the National
Development Plan, NDP in eliminating poverty and reducing inequality
by 2030 requires active citizens, strong leadership throughout
society, as well as a capable and developmental state that is able
to intervene and correct the imbalances of the past. For this to
happen, the programmes of all spheres of government need to be
effectively aligned and co-ordinated. To this end, provincial
strategic and annual performance plans are submitted to the
Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation for assessment.
The plans are assessed for their own alignment with the Medium-Term
Strategic Framework, MTSF. The department facilitates the
standardisation programme performance indicators for departments
with concurrent functions. This is done to ensure alignment of
provincial plans to the MTSF. Each sector meets and agrees on the
core set of performance indicators to be planned for and reported on
by that sector. The performance indicators are aligned to the MTSF
and approved by the nine provincial heads of department in each
sector.
There are 11 sectors that have standardised performance indicators
aligned to the MTSF in the 2017-18 financial year. These sectors are
Basic Education, Health, Social Development, Environmental Affairs,
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Agriculture, Co-operative Governance, Public Works, Roads and
Transport, Sport and Recreation, Arts and Culture, and Safety and
Liaison.
In addition to these processes, co-ordination between the spheres of
government on the implementation of the NDP is undertaken through
structures like the President’s Co-ordinating Council, PCC. The PCC,
which the President convened last week, provides a platform for the
political leadership at the national, provincial and local spheres
to engage directly on key developmental issues and give effect to
the objectives contained in the National Developmental Plan.
You may have an aversion against these task teams and so forth.
However, what I can say to you is that the PCC has been found to be
the most effective structure which co-ordinates not only planning
but also effective execution of not only the National Development
Plan, but also provincial plans. More importantly, it also has the
ability to deal with contemporaneous tasks, challenges and
programmes on an ongoing basis.
Through the PCC we try to standardise performance and
implementation, and to look at how provinces can learn from each
other. As province A does things better, it is able to enlighten
other provinces how it is executing a process in a particular area
of activity. That has been found to be most useful and we found it
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to be an effective vehicle to implement the National Development
Plan. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mr C J DE BEER: Thank you for the response. We have an electoral
mandate to deepen transformation and implementation of the NDP.
Referring to these programmes as mentioned in your reply Your
Excellency, and referring to the efficient, competitive and
responsive economic infrastructure network, are these programmes
achieving the intended objective of growing the economy but also of
engaging the private sector? It actually takes all the 11 into one
basket. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The answer is in the affirmative. Through this
structure, working at close range with our provinces, we are able to
pay attention to all these 11 areas, as you correctly said, of
activity. We are then able to bring to bear the participation and
collaboration of the private sector. Therefore, this PCC is used as
a very good springboard for crowding in, as we say, the private
sector and bringing them in so that we can work at close range with
them.
As you we all know, there is the other PICC which deals with
infrastructure. Therefore, the interface between the two becomes
much more effective in that we are then able to have line of sight
through the PCC of what is happening at the PICC level in terms of
the key and important projects that we are executing as a country,
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as we budget and spend the money which has to be spent on all these
key and important projects which have, in the end, a huge impact on
provincial development. Most of these projects are not only executed
for the national level but they are actually projects at the
provincial level. As we get representatives of the provinces who
come in as premiers largely, we are then able to deal with the real
issues; the impact of the projects which have to be implemented at
the provincial level. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mr F ESSACK: Deputy President, it is good to see you in the House. I
have listened attentively to your explanation on the question which
was raised originally by hon De Beer and a follow-up to his
question. I respect and grasp fully well your explanations. This
leads me to ask you honestly and sincerely. With the stagnating
economic growth that we are experiencing and living through, and
huge policy uncertainty which is taking place - as you’ll understand
and read between the lines the political instability that goes with
it – how then, as you put it in your words, an investment strike by
the private sector which transpired over the last period - or to
what extent, in your sincere and honest opinion, will the alignment
and implementation of all these plans that you so clearly explained
begin to stimulate the economic environment in this country so that
we can begin to create the much needed jobs? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for listening very closely and
intently to the answer I provided. I can say, as you said, honestly
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and sincerely, that most of what we are doing and not only limited
to the work we do through the PCC but at the broader level, is aimed
at seeking to generate economic growth. However, I can say that we
have entered a very new and exciting era in our country; an era that
we have seen in the past but now it is coming back in a much more
enhanced manner where we are co-operating with the private sector at
a practical level on a number of issues. This time around I have
found that it is not just mere talk.
The other day I had an occasion to talk to one of the rating agency
people. They recognise that we are now talking real, if you like,
turkey; real issues with the private sector. We are talking about
investments. In the Presidential Working Group that the President
set up to work with the private sector, we set up a group that is
looking at investments, which is led by Minister Gordhan and Mr Jabu
Mabuza. Together they are leading discussions, real rand and cents
discussion on investments.
All this is underpinned by a level of new confidence that has come
to the fore. There is a great spirit of confidence that has been
infused in our body politic where the private sector, in working not
only with government but also with labour, is beginning to cooperate so positively and collaborate.
We have a task team that is looking just at investment. We have
looked very closely at a number of investments areas that are being
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looked at, and we found that when they take place, not if, they are
going to generate growth in our economy. However, we have gone
beyond just looking at investments.
We have looked at a very key area of unemployment particularly youth
unemployment. With the private sector we are now finalising an
agreement which is going to lead – and the President spoke about
this and I have often spoken about it – to the employment through
learnerships and internships of a million young people into various
companies in our country. That, in itself, is a great boon and it
hinges on this foundation that has been created. That is recognised
as a great advance.
We have also worked together with the private sector, labour and
communities on dealing with labour instability. It was identified by
all and sundry as one of the deterrents to generating growth and we
have tackled that. We are now going to have enhanced labour
stability. We have also tackled the issue of income inequality by
reaching an agreement on the national minimum wage.
We are now moving to more practical matters such as the
comprehensive social security and a whole number of other issues.
That, in itself, does what? It enhances confidence. What is that
going to lead to? The private sector will now say, “We are now
confident enough to invest.”
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On the issue of policy uncertainty, we are dealing with the
practical things which are brought up by the private sector where
they say, “We have uncertainty on this, and please attend to this
and that!” Soon we are going to launch One-Stop-Shop. The One-StopShop is a process where government and the private sector work
together to set up this One-Stop-Shop. What is it going to do? It is
going to remove red tape, and bring more regulatory and policy
certainty.
Therefore, as I conclude, step by step, inch by inch, we are moving
forward. We are addressing matters that really count. We have long
gone past just policy kind of pronouncements or political
pronouncements. We are now at the level of implementing our
intentions. By so doing, we are going to see the real derivative we
want to see, which is growth and employment generation. That is what
I would say. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: All protocol observed. Deputy President, we
appreciate the positive outlook on the economy. We were not
downgraded and we go forward with the fiscal consolidation. We are
going forward with not increasing tax on Vat and that is positive
for this government. I quickly wanted to run through that. You
alluded to 11 sectors whose performance indicators have been
standardised. That is a move well appreciated and welcome. You also
spoke that the PCC is a structure which does not only deal with
planning but also the execution of what has been planned, and that
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is appreciated. Deputy President, last week the PCC sat down and
maybe had discussions around developmental issues and the direction
the country must take. Can you please, with due respect Chair,
compatriots and countrymen, perhaps indicate issues that were raised
there and will bring this country forward?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy President ...
... o batla ... [you want ...]
Mulevho. [Declaration.]
... because the hon member is asking the Deputy President, through
the back door, to give us the minutes of the PCC of the last time
they sat. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, in a way, I think what you are asking
for is that I should give you the minutes. Chairperson, you have
articulated it very well. What I can say is that we had a number of
premiers and the Premier of the Eastern Cape, the colleague here,
hon Masualle was also there and we had robust discussions with a
number of colleagues.
Much of what government does is, in the end, putting the public
through announcements. When matters reach a level of fruition, the
President will announce a number of things that will have flowed out
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of that meeting. I hope you can bear with me when it comes to that
but I can do a deal with you. The deal is that, as they get
announced, I will be willing to come and impart the information to
you here. Therefore, you will get to know what has been announced.
Thank you very much.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Deputy President, we are going to close on a very
good note. You have referred us to the big gap of inequality in the
country and I do want to agree with you. South Africa is rated
amongst the countries with the highest gini-coeffiecient. As a
relief measure of social protection, South Africa then introduced
social grants. Right now, in respect of the looming chaos in
disbursing this relief measure which was supposed to address
inequality, the Department of Social Development has failed for
three years which was given to it by the Constitutional Court to
sort out the issue of validating the invalid tender.
We have failed for three years and we are left with 15 days. In 15
days, what is government’s plan to ensure that, come 01 April 2017,
social grants are issued to the beneficiaries minding that, hon
Deputy President, you are here addressing this issue for the first
time? You have never been here on this issue, hon Deputy President.
So, take us into confidence of government. What is the plan?
[Laughter.] What is the plan, come 01 April 2017? This refers to the
inequality that you have referred to. Thank you.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members! Hon Khawula, that
is a completely new question. No. Please take your seat, sir. You do
know that you are smuggling a completely new question which is
directed at the issues which are very hot. I would advise the hon
Khawula to write a question or ask for a debate on the matter in the
House rather do what he is doing. No ...
... Ntate, ke kopa o dule fatshe. [Sir, please sit down.]
Please take you seat, hon Khawula! No, hon members, I am not going
to create a precedence which is not right. If he had smuggled it
nicely, it might have been ... Hon Faber, are you rising on a point
of order?
Mr W F FABER: Yes, Chairperson. I just wanted to know if there is no
extra supplementary question because the hon member’s was definitely
not a question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon member. Hon members, when
supplementary questions come, some of you do not raise your hands
until the very last ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: We do.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon Mokwele! Other members do raise
their hands as we start. That is why, by the time some of you raise
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hands, we already have our full quota of four supplementary
questions. No.
Hon members, let me take this opportunity to thank the special
delegates from different provinces for coming to us today. Special
thanks to the Premier of the Eastern Cape and also the Deputy
President. Thank you very much, sir! [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
The Council adjourned at 16:42.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
Please click on the following link to access the relevant Announcements, Tablings and
Committee Reports for this day.
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