Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 07 Mar 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
07 MARCH 2017
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TUESDAY, 7 MARCH 2017
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 10:02.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
SELECTIVE EXCLUSION OF NOTICES AND MOTIONS
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that
the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion of
motions without notice, except for the motion that is on the Order
Paper.
PRECEDENCE TO ORDER OF THE DAY
(Draft Resolution)
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The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move that,
notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the
Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council considers
the Report of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Appointment of Board
Members to the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In terms of Rule 71, I will first allow
provinces the opportunity to make their declarations, if they so
wish. Does any province wish to make a declaration? No? We shall now
proceed ... [Interjections.] Oh, the Western Cape.
Declaration of Vote:
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Enkosi kakhulu Sihlalo weNdlu. [Thank you
Chairperson of the House.]
The NYDA is an employment agency for the elite within the ANC Youth
League and its alliance partners. It remains how it was designed and
created to be.
The first ad hoc committee rightly encompassed the requirement of a
post-secondary qualification as a criterion. This specific
requirement was not implemented to ensure the committee has skilled
members responsible for managing a budget of R500 million, but was
rather implemented to specifically exclude Kenny Morolong, who does
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not have formal tertiary qualifications. This process had to be
corrected and now it no longer lists tertiary qualification as a
requirement. By doing so, it includes Kenny.
Despite the fact that there are more than 400 young, talented and
qualified applicants, each member of the committee was told to only
shortlist one applicant. This is troublesome ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, please take your
seat. Is that a point of order, sir? I saw your raised hand. Okay.
Hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana, the declaration you are making ...
[Interjections.]
Are you rising on a point of order?
Mr M RAYI: Chair, I think you are addressing the point. I think we
are still dealing with whether we should agree to the motion or not.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Hon member, can I ... If your
declaration is on the NYDA report itself, can I ask you to hold off
until we get there, and make a declaration on whether or not we
should adopt the motion?
If you wish to continue declaring on the motion, and not on the
report, then yes, you may proceed.
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Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: We do support the motion, hon Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: In that case, we shall now proceed to
vote on the motion by province. The Eastern Cape?
An HON MEMBER: The Eastern Cape supports, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Free State?
An HON MEMBER: The Free State supports, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?
An HON MEMBER: Gauteng agrees, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?
An HON MEMBER: KwaZulu-Natal agrees, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?
An HON MEMBER: Limpopo agrees, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?
An HON MEMBER: Mpumalanga agrees, Chair.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?
An HON MEMBER: The Northern Cape agrees, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?
An HON MEMBER: The North West proudly agrees, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Western Cape?
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: We would like to do a declaration, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We are dealing with the motion. You
said you are agreeing to it. [Interjections.] We will come to the
declaration.
Hon members...
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Honourable...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpambo-Sibhukwana...
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Yes ... she already said we support the motion.
All right?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, thank you.
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: So we support the motion.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you.
Hon members, order! I think it has been a long time since we have
had an early morning sitting. That is why we are looking so
deurmekaar! [confused.] Let us accept that.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF THE AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENT
OF BOARD MEMBERS TO THE NATIONAL YOUTH DEVELOPMENT AGENCY, NYDA,
DATED 7 FEBRUARY 2017
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, Ministers, Deputy Minister, hon members of the
NCOP, youth development remains a critical component in our society,
with young people bearing the brunt of the triple challenge of
unemployment, poverty and inequality.
Government, the private sector and civil society must continue to
work closely together in addressing the challenges faced by young
people, and implementing interventions which can make a lasting
impact on the youth of this country. When we come together and pool
our resources, more can be dome to change the lives of youth in
South Africa.
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The NYDA was established primarily to tackle challenges that the
nation‘s youth are faced with. This is encapsulated in the mandate
of the NYDA whose responsibility, among others, is to initiate,
design, co-ordinate, evaluate and monitor programmes aimed at
integrating the youth into the economy and society in general.
The NYDA was established in 2009 following a merger between the
Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the National Youth Commission.
The NYDA was formally launched on 16 June 2009, as pronounced by His
Excellency, President Jacob Zuma in his 2009 state of the nation
address.
You will all know that the previous NYDA‘s board term expired on
31 March 2016 and the recommendation of candidates for the
appointment of board members is a most critical and fundamental
process, since it provides a valuable opportunity for Parliament to
learn more about how the recommended candidates might perform in the
NYDA board positions to be filled, while at the same time complying
with the recommended best practice and legal requirements.
The NYDA faces key challenges of meeting the expectations of our
youth and addressing all the challenges that young people face on a
daily basis. This requires continued innovation in developing
products and services responsive to the challenges of the youth.
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Hence, it is very important to recommend the right people who are
fit for this purpose and up to the task.
The process for the appointment of NYDA board members is guided by
section 9 of the National Youth Development Agency Act which states
that members of the board must be appointed in a manner that ensures
participation by youth, and the entire nomination process should be
fair and transparent.
Following a rigorous process of short-listing, the ad hoc committee
discharged its duties meticulously and with all due regard to the
requirements of thoroughness, fairness, propriety, and equally
considering the geographic spread of the Republic.
Furthermore, the ad hoc joint committee also considered the
importance of retaining skills and experience. Hence, the
recommended candidates are a mix of previous board members and new
candidates, also ensuring gender balance. Malibongwe! [Praise the
name of women!]
With regard to recommendations, the ad hoc joint committee,
notwithstanding the challenges that continue to face young people,
has unanimously recommended the following seven candidates to be
appointed to serve as board members in the NYDA: Mr Ndomiso
Thokozani Mokako from Mpumalanga; Mr Itiseng Kenneth Morolong from
North West; Mr Yershen Pillay from KwaZulu-Natal; Mr Sifiso John
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Mtsweni from Western Cape; Ms Zandile Majozi from Gauteng; Ms
Bavelile Gloria Hlongwa from KwaZulu-Natal; and, lastly, Ms Kgomotso
Joy Maimela from Limpopo.
In conclusion, as we look forward to completing the 2016-17
financial year, there are a number of developments on the horizon.
The NYDA‘s head office operations will move, as a restructuring has
resulted in the agency requiring smaller facilities. This will
result in significant cost savings that will be redistributed
towards youth development projects.
In addition, the budget of the NYDA has been re-adjusted with
significant cost savings being allocated to the critical areas of
economic development, education and skills development.
The NYDA mobile app is expected to be launched soon. It will enhance
rural communities‘ and youth participation. The app will also
further enable the youth to access the agency‘s products and
services.
Importantly, the ad hoc joint committee is pleased with the
performance of the outgoing NYDA board. The board brought good
corporate governance and stability to the organisation. They
transformed the agency into a more credible, capable development
agency with integrity, well positioned for further growth. The
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entity is now functional and has actually responded to the needs and
the interests of young people.
We thank the outgoing board members for the hard work they have put
into making the NYDA an improved organisation. The outgoing board
members finish their term without suspensions, resignations,
terminations or scandals.
To the recommended NYDA board candidates, let‘s take youth
development to that place where it encounters and fuses with the
unique characteristics of being young. We want our youth development
to be vibrant, energetic, creative, robust, resourceful, imaginative
and original. We expect the agency to continue assisting in
promoting youth participation in democratic processes, community and
civic decision-making and development at all levels. We all owe it
to the generations before us who, through their bravery and
commitment to the cause of our youth, ensured that the youth agenda
occupies centre stage in our nation‘s developmental agenda.
The struggle of South Africa‘s youth can never be in vain and we
must continue to re-dedicate ourselves to that cause and advance the
ideals as best as we can. The brutality of yesteryear meted out to
our youth must never be repeated. The sacrifices of the 1976
generation and many others that followed in their footsteps must
inspire us in advancing youth development.
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Last but not least, I wish to thank all members of the ad hoc joint
committee for their co-operation, participation, and support. I wish
to thank the parliamentary staff who assisted the committee and who,
despite also supporting other committees, passionately and
diligently kept their heads up and focused on the job at hand. I
thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, the NYDA continues to be
an employment agency for the elite within the ANC Youth League and
its alliance partners. It remains how it was designed and created to
be.
The first ad hoc committee rightly encompassed the requirement of a
post-secondary qualification as a criterion. This specific
requirement was not implemented to ensure that the committee has a
skilled member responsible for managing half a billion budget, but
was rather implemented to specifically exclude Kenny Morolong, who
does not have formal tertiary qualification. This process had to be
recorrected and it now no longer lists tertiary qualification as a
requirement, but so doing, it includes Kenny.
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Despite the fact that there are more than 400 young talented and
qualified applicants, each member of the committee was told to only
short one applicant. This is troublesome as it give members the
opportunity to only select applicants they are politically connected
to. It is no wonder that the only shortlisted candidates without
political membership were those that were specifically nominated by
the DA. The most qualified shortlisted candidate, Siyaduma Biniza,
who has two bachelors, an honours and a master‘s degree was excluded
on the basis that he does not attend rallies as per hon Mkongi.
Of the seven candidates recommended today, four are ANC Youth League
national executive members, one is a former ANC Youth League
regional leader, another, a chairperson of the Young Communist
League and the last, the deputy president of the IFP Youth Brigade.
We, as the Western Cape, do not support this report and we call upon
all other parties to do the right thing and support us in our
rejection. Thank you, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Is there any
other province which wishes to make a declaration? Hon Mhlanga, is
that Mpumalanga?
Mr M T MHLANGA: Chair, as Mpumalanga, we definitely support the
appointment of this board considering that the short listing was
done by the entire members, who were delegated to the ad hoc
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committee. The Act itself does not specify the requirements with
regard to post-matrics.
The process followed section 9 of the Act itself. Due to that, we
disagree with the notion that the NYDA is an elite employment agency
of the ANC. It followed the process and all parties were involved
and all of them were appointed as per the mandate our parties. On
that note, we support the establishment of the board. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson, as a former member of the provincial
board, I was the deputy chairperson of the provincial board of the
NYDA. The board and the NYDA as an agency were and have been
established to further the objectives of youth as a cohort in South
Africa and not the youth that comes from a specific political party
or those who are over the age of 35.
The process was dealt with in line with the Act, which does not
stipulate that post-school qualification is a necessity. Had the DA
or any other political party had an issue with the post-school
qualification being a necessity, they should have raised it at the
committee but they didn‘t. They are now using this platform to raise
the issues around one particular candidate, who was responsible for
two years of clean audits of the NYDA. It‘s not about who but it‘s
about what.
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I think that the former board that served two years proved that they
had the capacity to deliver on their mandate but also to spend
public funds prudently. They received two years of clean audits and
they are part of those that we are recommending to the President to
appoint to the board and we hope that they will do a proper handover
process and teaching those that are coming in. As Gauteng, we
support it. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Ms Z V NCITHA: Chair, I also support the motion by the presenter of
accepting the NYDA board. I want to emphasise the issue of fairness
does not arise. I was part of the committee. All of us as members of
the ad hoc committee were given a chance to elect a person from the
candidates that applied for the NYDA positions. So, no one was
excluded. Even the DA did elect their person.
This issue of qualifications does not arise at all because whatever
we did was in compliance with the Act, which does not specify the
issue of the post-matric candidate. So, the issue being raised about
a political party that has its own alliance, its own people ... she
was part of the committee that appointed candidates. She supported
it. We should congratulate Parliament for allowing us at our age to
participate in that process instead so that we begin to understand
the dynamics of young people‘s issues. Thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Hon member, we
shall now proceed to the voting on the question.
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Debate concluded.
Declarations of vote made on behalf of the Western Cape, Mpumalanga,
Gauteng and Eastern Cape.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal,
Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.
AGAINST: Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the
Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Before we
proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the
Ministers and the Deputy Ministers - for now, just the two of you
gentleman, welcome. I must also say that we have received a request
and the request is ... Minister of Police, meaning no disrespect ...
that we allow for the Deputy Minister, John Jeffreys, to come in
first, simply because he has official duty outside the borders of
South Africa and must hurry to go and fulfil that obligation. We
shall now proceed, hon members ... [Interjections.] ... yes, sir, it
is quiet public. He will be attending a meeting of Ministers in
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Swaziland. That is a question that is valid in terms of your
oversight duties, so, there is nothing untoward about it.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
PEACE AND SECURITY
Cluster 1
Group A
MINISTERS:
Strategies to advocate public awareness
8.
Ms T Wana (Eastern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and
Correctional Services:
Whether his department has any strategies to advocate public
awareness on legal (a) rights, (b) access and (c) procedures;
if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO16E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thanks for
accommodating me, Chairperson. It‘s a meeting of the Southern
African Development Countries, SADC, Ministers of Justice. The
minister of Justice is not well so I‘ll be standing–in for him and
it‘s taking place in Swaziland.
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Chairperson, the first question is Question 8 which relates to
strategies to advocate public awareness on legal rights, access and
procedures. There‘s quite a long answer of about eight pages ...
[Interjection.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, just before you
proceed. Eastern Cape, I have no instructions about anybody taking
over this question and hon Wana is not in the House, therefore, this
question will fall away. Deputy Minister, please proceed to the
other.
Maintenance Courts systems
23.
Mr L V Magwebu (Eastern Cape: DA) asked the Minister of Justice
and Correctional Services:
Whether
there
are
any
systems
in
place
in
the
Maintenance
Courts to ensure that payments are made (a) to the correct
beneficiaries and (b) within the reasonable times; if not, why
not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO31E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The second
question then it‘s also DA Eastern Cape. The second question is
relating to maintenance and the Department of Justice currently is
in a process to replace its legacy system the Justice Deposit
Account System or JDAS, with regard to the receipt and payment of
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third party funds which includes maintenance monies with a System
Applications Products, SAP-based system called MojaPay.
The current system, JDAS, is not an accounting system and doesn‘t
adhere to the most basic accounting and reporting standards. One of
the other problems with it is that although it‘s an electronic
system, all transactions have to be captured by hand, which
inevitably results in human error and limited instances where monies
where allocated incorrectly and paid to incorrect beneficiaries. The
task is made even more difficult by an outdated referencing system
and the lack of reference validation.
In cases where, under the old system, monies were paid to the
incorrect beneficiaries the department had to ensure that correct
beneficiaries were paid but had to then collect the money from the
incorrect beneficiaries and sort it out.
Due to the reporting weakness in decentralised nature of JDAS as
well as the volume of transactions involved, there are about a
190 000 maintenance receipts and payments per month. It‘s impossible
to determine accurately the time it takes to pay a maintenance
beneficiary after the monies have been received. Depending on the
correctness of the payment details received, payment to the
beneficiaries could take between two and 20 days.
That‘s why we are moving to the new MojaPay system which after due
testing and piloting has been rolled-out to the Northern Cape, Free
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State and North West Provinces; it‘s a fully automated system with
built-in referencing, mass bank accounts and reference validations.
All correctly referenced receipts in respect of maintenance can be
immediately allocated to the correct beneficiary and payment to the
beneficiary usually takes place within 24 hours of receipt;
depending on the bank used by the beneficiary the amount should be
available within 24 to 48 hours after MojaPay has received the
money.
We are envisaging that implementing the roll-out countrywide by the
end of March 2018; after which the legacy system JDAS will be closed
down. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Thank you hon Minister for that response. However,
it is very clear that there are serious problems and no doubt
Minister – you‘ll agree with me that – maintenance and the
beneficiaries of maintenance money are the vulnerable of our
society; they need this money desperately so two to 20 days is long
enough because they are already desperate as they don‘t have money
to feed their children and to take them to school. It means there‘s
still a problem at the Department of Justice; I hear that there are
endeavours to pay this within 24 hours but be that as it may, that
is not good enough because currently, for instance in East London,
we read everyday when we go home that the East London Court is not
paying this money immediately, it takes up to two to three weeks.
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The question is, given your response, why this maintenance money is
not paid directly to the beneficiaries‘ accounts? And they can only
come to complain when the father of the child defaults instead of
this money having to go first to your (department‘s) account because
you just cannot pay it immediately. What is the problem with that
arrangement? Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I mean ...
[Inaudible.] ... of the problems that‘s why we are developing the
new system. My understanding is that beneficiaries can receive the
money directly if they so wish; it‘s up to that beneficiary to
specify that.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you sir. Is there any other
member who wishes to make a follow-up question? The hon Mokwele.
Moh T J MOKWELE: Ke leboga Motlatsatona ka karabo ya gagwe. Potso ya
me ke gore fa lefapha le amogela madi a tlamelo ... (Translation of
Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your response. My
question: When the department is given the grant ...]
... and then distribute it to the beneficiaries, how much does the
department use or lose during that transferring process? Because it
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cannot be that money will just be transferred without any
transaction fee incurred. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, I‘m not aware of the exact amount, if there is in fact
any amount I can come back the hon member with that detail.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, the Deputy Minister will
come back to us.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Deputy Minister, I would like to know if
there was a policy change which dictates that all maintenance monies
be paid to the Maintenance Court directly, would agree that this is
not working as it is costing the members of the public, the
taxpayer, more money with regard to the administration costs and how
would you deal with this in trying to save those administration
costs? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, as I said early, my understanding is that maintenance
beneficiaries who want to be paid directly can be paid directly.
However, many people wish to have the money paid into court so that
they can have someone monitoring that the money is being paid.
Mr M KHAWULA: The hon Deputy Minister has cited quite a number of
challenges which he says the department is attending to. I just want
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to find out for how long have these challenges been there, is it
something that is new or is it something that we inherited in 1994?
If these challenges have been there from 1994 why has it taken you
so long to attend to this? Thank you, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I imagine
in 1994 it was probably an entirely manual system so the JDAS would
have developed from that as an attempt to automate the payments.
It‘s an issue of the system is been improved all the time. But
hopefully when the MojaPay system ... my understanding is that it‘s
all the courts in the Northern Cape that will be under MojaPay by
the end of this month. 32 out of the 33 courts in the North West and
30 out of the 66 courts in the Free State, so hopefully hon members
can indicate how the new system is working from those provinces.
Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you Deputy Minister. That was the
last supplementary on the first question which was put by the hon
Magwebu. You can proceed to Question 10 posed by the hon Mhlanga.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT:
Chairperson, the other two questions relating to Justice are 57 and
12. If I can do those and then ... those other two relate to
Correctional Services.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Question 10 is about ...
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT:
Correctional Services.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Correctional Services?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: As
well as 27. If I can move to 57 ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: May I just
get ... Please take your seat. Hon Acting Chief Whip?
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chair, I think it is quite clear
that the Minister responsible is not in the House. Therefore,
consistent with what you have raised and undertaken in the past, can
we agree to persuade the House that we let the question stand over
and, with your leadership, of course, we would be able to raise it
with the relevant Minister so that, as time allows, the Minister can
come and respond to the question as posed to him.
As things stand now, we agreed in the past, through your leadership,
of course, that we will not allow any other Minister who is not
responsible ... who will not be able to give tangible follow-up
answers, to take such questions.
I therefore suggest that we follow your divine intervention that you
did in the past and allow you to intervene.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The divine part ... [Laughter.] Hon
Mokwele? Order!
Mme T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke a leboga. Go a swabisa gore re bo
re le Ntlo fa re tshwanetse go dira tiro ya rona, e be re tshwanetse
go netefatsa pele gore maloko a Kabinete a dira tiro ya ona. Tona
kgotsa Motlatsatona yo o maleba a sa itlhagise mo Ntlong; e bile go
sena mabaka a a tlhalosang gore o kwa kae le gore ke eng a sa tle go
dira tiro ya gagwe ya go araba ka fa Ntlong. (Translation of
Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you Chairperson. It is embarrassing that when
we are supposed to start with the plan of the day, we first have to
ensure that the Members of the Cabinet are doing what they are
supposed to do. Neither the Minister nor his Deputy Minister is
here; nor there no apologies tendered or at least reasons pertaining
to their absence.]
The EFF will not take any apology from the Deputy Minister of
Correctional Service. And we request that, because the ministry is
one ... I should understand that the Deputy Minister of Justice can
be able ... because it is one cluster dealing with the same
department. He should be able to answer us because we demand answers
now. We want to work, please.
07 MARCH 2017
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I make a ruling on this? Hon
members, you would remember that some time last year, Deputy
Minister John Jeffery undertook to respond. It was, in fact, members
of this House who said that he would not be able to deal
comprehensively with follow-up questions. The input made by the hon
Mokwele is relevant only in as far as it is directed at the Minister
of Justice. He is the overall Minister. He is the one from whom we
can demand direct responses pertaining to all divisions and sections
of his department.
I think that we should agree that I undertake to find out from the
Minister of Justice and the Deputy Minister who deals directly with
Correctional Services when this House can get responses to these
questions. [Interjections.]
Ma‘am, I am ruling. Hon Mokwele, I am ruling.
One, when can this House expect the responses to the two questions
which deal with issues relating to Correctional Services? Two, when
can this House expect to receive the reasons for the Deputy Minister
not showing his face in this House? I will report back to the House
on this matter.
With that ruling, I think we should then allow ... [Interjections.]
07 MARCH 2017
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I do not wish to entertain a discussion on this. I have ruled on the
matter. Hon Julius?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. It is just for
clarity so that we can understand your ruling. I am just a bit
confused. Just for clarity‘s sake, Chairperson, if you would allow
me. With the ruling that you have just made, are you saying that no
Minister or Deputy Minister can stand in for another Minister or
Deputy Minister. Is that actually what you are saying?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, that is not my ruling.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Previously, we had Ministers from another
department ... even a Deputy Minister answering on behalf of another
one.
Now, my confusion, Chairperson, is that we know that the ruling that
you are making will be consistent in the House. Where the confusion
comes in is on the other side. How do we rule? How do we deal with
that one because you said in the beginning that Members from this
House last time said that other Ministers cannot answer on behalf of
others? I am just confused.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can I come in? My ruling does not say
that a Minister cannot have another Minister come into the House and
respond. My ruling is confined to the issues of the Department of
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Justice and Correctional Services. I tried to remind the House that,
last year, it was the same House that said to the hon Deputy
Minister that he is unable to give us the details that we need
regarding Correctional Services. Therefore, his response today is
that he is unable to give us responses to the supplementary matters.
That is why he is of the view that he is not the right person to
respond to those questions because he will not be able to deal with
the supplementary questions which may arise.
Now, my ruling is confined to Deputy Minister Makwetla and not to
the Minister because the Minister is expected to know everything
about the Ministry he heads. If the hon Masutha were here, I would
not have made this ruling because he must be able to respond to all
aspects within his department.
Additionally, I cannot make a ruling that says a Minister, after
making arrangements, may not request another Minister – who is
probably acting in his or her portfolio – to come in to the House to
respond.
As a matter of fact, as we get into the questions for Defence And
Military Veterans, the Minister says, I am unable to come and I have
tried to speak to my colleagues to stand in for me, but nobody feels
like they will be able to deal with the supplementary questions and
therefore I ask ... In other words, you cannot, as the House, then
take away the right of the Ministers to make arrangements for the
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questions to be dealt with. But, in the case where a Minister or a
Deputy Minister says, but you said this to me in the past and I am
telling you, standing here, that I will not be able to deal with the
supplementaries ... We cannot force this Deputy Minister to respond.
[Interjections.]
Hon Labuschagne, I will come back to you, ma‘am, but I do not want
to get into a dialogue on the matter. Hon Labuschagne?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you very much, Chair. I understand what you
said in your ruling, but I am just concerned where we as a House ask
accountability from the Cabinet or from the Executive that this
Question Paper has a deadline that was part of our parliamentary
programme since January. So there is communication from this House
to the Ministers in the Security cluster which means that they know
the dates on which they are supposed to here.
Now, its concerning to me and to the people we are accountable to
that Ministers, at very short notice, let this House know that they
are not available, then send the Deputy Minister, knowing full well
that the Deputy will not always be able to answer all the follow-up
questions. That creates the impression that the executive is not
accountable. I would like to know what time frame the House allows a
Minister to indicate that he or she is not available to respond to
questions in the House. Thank you.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, ma‘am. To respond to you,
hon Labuschagne: The Minister of Justice has been in hospital. He
has just been released to recuperate at home. He is still on sick
leave. It is not as though he is dodging his responsibility. If he
was, we would say something else.
Concerning the Deputy Minister who deals directly with Correctional
Services, I said that I am going to get in touch with both him and
the Minister. In fact, it is not even my work to get in touch with
the Deputy Minister. I am going to get in touch with the Minister to
understand why, in his absence, the relevant Deputy Minister was not
in this House.
Now, that does not mean that we can say that, because the Deputy
Minister is not here, we are not holding the executive to account.
We must insist and that is what I am going to do. We insist. That is
why I said to hon Mokwele that I will put those two questions to the
Minister of Justice so that it does not seem as if we are not doing
our work. [Interjections.]
Hon Mokwele, this is the last time.
Mme T J MOKWELE: Ke go leboge gape Modulasetilo. Go a swabisa gore
re le Ntlo, re bo re letlelela maloko a Kabinete go sa dire tiro ya
ona. Ke bua jaana Modulasetilo ka mabaka a a latelang: (Translation
of Setswana paragraph follows.)
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[Ms T J MOKWELE: Thank you Chairperson, it is embarrassing that we,
as the House, are allowing Members of the Cabinet to refrain from
doing their work. I am basing my argument on the following facts:]
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the
Department of Correctional Services are in one Ministry. That, on
its own, means whether we have Deputy Minister Thabang Makwetla
here, or we have Deputy Minister ... I forgot the surname ... here,
they would be able to answer and deal with the issues that are
related to the Ministry.
The issue ...
... ya gore re re Batlatsatona ba ba senang dikarabo ...
[Tsenoganong.] [... for the Deputy Ministers who have no answers
...[Interjections.]]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, No! No! No!
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke kopa go feleletsa. Tla ke feleletse o utlwe ntlha
yaka. [Can I conclude? Can I conclude so that you can be able to get
my point?]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No! No! No! You are repeating what we
have dealt with.
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Mme T J MOKWELE: Mme Modulasetilo, lebaka la gore nako e re neng re
re Motlatsatona yo o neng a tlile mo Ntlong go tla go araba mme a sa
re neele dikarabo tse di maleba. Ke gore ... (Translation of
Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, the fact that the Deputy Minister
comes into the House to respond but fail to give relevant response
would mean ...]
... That Deputy Minister was from another Ministry, and not from the
same Ministry of Water and Sanitation. Now these ones are in the
same Ministry ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ok, can I respond to you?
Ms T J MOKWELE: The Deputy Minister must be able to answer us and it
must be recorded that as the House, we are not happy with Cabinet
members. It‘s not only that the Minister is sick - It‘s not only
that he is sick. The communication from their offices to us is
questionable.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat, ma‘am. The
communication of the Ministers to this House is done through my
office. That is the first point. It shouldn‘t be done through
anybody else but through my office.
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The second point that I want to make — and I am closing this matter
— is that Deputy Ministers are given specific responsibilities.
Deputy Minister John Jeffery does not deal with Correctional
Services. Within the Department of Justice and Correctional
Services, Deputy Minister Makwetla is responsible for Correctional
Services. And therefore it is not unthinkable that ...
[Interjections.]
I have made that ruling. She has interrupted my ruling. We proceed.
Deputy Minister John Jeffery, the next question ... which is not
related to Correctional Services.
Withdrawal from ICC
57.
Mr M M Chabangu (Free State: EFF) asked the Minister of Justice
and Correctional Services:
Whether, in view of the Pretoria High Court ruling (details
furnished), South Africa will still withdraw from the
International Criminal Court; if not, what is the position in
this regard; if so, what action will be taken regarding the
advice that the withdrawal must be endorsed by Parliament?
CO65E
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chair, may
be just to say that it is a bit confusing because the last time I
came here when the hon member was not here I was not a member of
this House it was in fact the hon member of the EFF, Mr Mokoena who
complained about me answering questions from correctional services;
so it is difficult to come here once and the EFF tells you no don‘t
answer the question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please don‘t go back to that hon Deputy
Minister. You are responding so ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: it is difficult. You come and the next time and they
say something else. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon Deputy Minister, please
proceed to respond to question 57.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, the position of the government on withdrawal from the
International Criminal Court, ICC, has not changed but government
has taken notice of the full judgement of the Gauteng Division,
Pretoria High Court in the case of DA V the Minister of
International Relations and Co-operation and others relating to the
notice of withdrawal from the Rome Statute.
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In accordance with article 127(1) of the Rome Statute the notice
would not take effect until October this year. The High Court took
the view that the notice of withdrawal requires prior parliamentary
approval before cabinet may implement its decision to withdraw from
and international agreement.
The court acknowledged that section 231 of the Constitution in its
terms lays down no such express requirement but the court emphasise
there is nothing paid constitutional about the national executive
decision to withdraw from the Rome Statute because it is within the
powers of executive to make such a decision. What the court ruled on
is on process based grounds but after careful consideration it has
been decided that the orders in this matter will not be challenged
and cabinet is therefore going to be abiding by the decision of the
North Gauteng High Court and has established a technical task team
to develop a compliance roadmap to address what the High Court
consider to be defects in the procedure preceding the notice of
withdrawal and so there will be a letter of revocation delivered to
the UN. There will be a withdrawal notice that was tabled will be
withdrawn from Parliament and substituted with a new one. The Bill
currently before the National Assembly will also be withdrawn. So
basically we are abiding by the decision of the High Court. But we
will be starting the process again correcting the procedural defects
that the court identified.
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Mr M M CHABANGU: Chairperson, my supplementary question to the
Deputy Minister is that it is clear that they don‘t want to listen
to the High Court. I am afraid of what is going to happen after the
withdrawal with the people of South Africa, can you respond to that.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I am not
sure whether the hon member has read the judgement but the judgement
raised procedural questions. So, hence that judgement has accepted
and those procedural concerns will be addressed, the process will be
started with a motion in Parliament both Houses to withdraw. So, I
am not entirely sure what the hon member is referring to.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, on 31 January in a
portfolio committee briefing, the Minister said: ―I cannot see how a
court can dictate either to the executive or this Parliament choices
imposed by those who have the privilege to approach the court
because they can.‖
The executive blatantly dishonoured the principle of separation of
powers and it is quite frankly beyond me to understand how a
Minister of Justice and Corrections Services of all things do not
understand the separation of powers. Because, yes, it was quite
obvious that the only power to enact that choice lay with Parliament
and not with the executive; Minister, in the light of the court
judgement on the matter would you now acknowledge as a department
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that the court has indeed the authority that the Minister so
ignorantly denied?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, I am not sure about the Minister denying the courts
authority, I mean obviously the courts have authority over
everything. I take issue with the issue of blatant, government acted
on the basis of a legal opinion drafted by a reputable senior
councillor on constitutional matters. The Constitution, as the hon
member knows does not expressly say what process you must follow to
withdraw from a treaty.
The Gauteng High Court decision could be appealed against but in
terms of withdrawing from the ICC it would be quicker to do the
process according to the directions in the judgement than to appeal
toe the Supreme Court of Appeal to the Constitutional Court which
would take some time.
Mr M T MHLANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. This House, hon Minister,
acknowledged the rulings of the court as Parliament and we are bound
by the rulings of the court. I just want you to, perhaps, give us
more details – actually we insist in getting more details as to why
does you department insist that we should withdraw?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is up to you, Deputy Minister, it
seems to be more than a supplementary.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes Chair,
I would prefer it if maybe we can arrange for the Minister to come
and brief the relevant portfolio on Select committee.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, hon Minister, you know it has become a
norm for, especially the ANC, to ignore the rulings of our courts.
Now, you are the person who is responsible to see that justice is
upheld in our country on both sides, obviously, now we had the ICC
ruling in the al-Bashir matter, and no one is held accountable still
on this one. We also have other ruling where the courts are ignored,
Chairperson, especially the High Court.
I am asking this question in reference to ignoring of High Court
rulings of the top elite maybe sometimes the ANC. We also have a
ruling on the social grants crisis, what is your take in terms of
that because it is a ruling, hon Minister that you are supposed to
take up. We want justice! And from this side, I think it is your
responsibility to take it up? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is your supplementary?
Mr J W W JULIUS: I have already asked the Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, I
take issue with the assertion that the ANC government ignores ruling
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of our courts. I would be interested in terms of you giving me facts
evidence of that. I mean obviously, there are different layers of
courts and the Higher Courts overturn the judgements of the lower
courts. And they do that quite regularly, so the Supreme Court of
Appeal five judges can decide on a particular thing and then you
find the Constitutional Court says, no they did it wrongly and it is
overturned, it‘s only when the final judgement is made.
However, it would be interesting and we can also see where the
Western Cape government, the City of Cape Town. I mean they also
have rulings against them. But as far as I recall with the al-Bashir
case in those circumstances were fairly unique, I am sure you would
admit that the Chief Justice had said that that government generally
does abide by the court ruling. So, it might be something you want
to believe that the ANC doesn‘t but if you do then please give me
the cases that you are referring to.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, it seems you have
exhausted the questions that you can respond to the three other
questions ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I can do
the third one.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The third one? I thought the third one
was also victim‘s charter. Okay, question 12.
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Reviewing of effectiveness of Service Charter
12.
Mr D M Stock (Northern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Justice
and Correctional Services:
(a) What were the major findings identified in the process of
reviewing the effectiveness of the Service Charter for Victims
of Crime and the Minimum Standards (details furnished) and (b)
what are the plans to strengthen the support to the victims of
crime?
CO20E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The
Service Charter for Victims of Crime in South Africa, which is also
referred to as the Victims‘ Charter, is an important instrument for
promoting justice for victims of crime in South Africa. The Victims‘
Charter is compliant with the spirit of the Constitution and the
United Nations Declaration of Basic Principles of Justice for
Victims of Crime and Abuse of Power, which was adopted in 1985. The
Victims Charter can be traced back to the National Crime Prevention
Strategy, 1996, as well as the National Victim Empowerment
Programme, 1998. From there it presents a right framework for
services provided under the Victim Empowerment Programme. The
Minimum Standards on Services for Victims of Crime or Minimum
Standards is an information document which was developed to further
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explain the rights of victims as contained in the Victims‘ Charter
and make these rights a reality.
The Minister mandated the National Director of Public Prosecutions
to review both the Victims‘ Charter and its Minimum Standards. He
has been informed that the review process is currently still in
progress and is being conducted in conjunction with the relevant
stakeholders in the criminal justice system. So, it is not possible
to indicate the major findings identified in the review process at
this stage.
Since its introduction, the Victim‘s Charter has been largely
implemented for victims of gender-based violence in response to the
national, regional and international pressure on the country to give
priority to power-based or gender-based violent crimes.
The Minister has requested the department to initiate a process of
developing an integrated criminal justice strategy which has, as one
of its pillars, the strengthening of the victim-centric justice
system. This pillar seeks to strengthen the aspirations of the
Victims‘ Charter by establishing a co-ordinated flow of value
support services to all victims of crime from the entry to the exit
points in the criminal justice system. This is to ensure that the
country has a victim-centric, responsive, quick and effective
justice system. Thank you.
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have been instructed that hon
Ximbi will take care of this question.
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, I am happy about the response of the
Minister. I have no further questions. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson and Deputy Minister, can you give us
timeframe for the reviewing process? Until what time will the
process be done and when will there be a report? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Not at
hand, Chairperson. The National Director of Public Prosecutions,
NDPP, was asked in the second quarter of last year to do the review.
We would have to ascertain from him and we can come back to the
House with that information.
Strategies/plans to deal with crimes
2.
Mr D M Stock (Northern Cape: ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether his department has any strategies or plans to respond
to and deal with specialised, sophisticated and advanced crimes
in order to protect law abiding citizens; if not, why not; if
so, what are the relevant details?
CO10E
07 MARCH 2017
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, hon members, ladies and
gentlemen, yes, the division Detective Services has developed and is
busy implementing a recovery plan addressing vehicles, stock theft
and endangered species kind of case. The plan include the following
stakeholders: the international law enforcement agencies, the United
Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the International Narcotics
Control Board, the SA Banking Risk Information Centre, the industry
crime forum as well as the private security industry, in particular
security companies such as the SBV, G4S and Bidvest.
The Family Violence Child Protection and Sexual Offences Units have
also been re-established with 177 units across the country. Social
workers, especially in forensic social work, provide scientific
specialised investigative support and expert testimony in court
where the victim happens to be a child. Thirty social workers thus
far have been recruited and will start working on 01 April 2917. The
division, Detective Services thus posseses the capacity to conduct
forensic investigations into all digital devices, do forensic
analysis of communication data and enhance closed circuit
television, CCTV, footage. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson and Minister, we have a problem of
cybercrime in this country. Is there any special team or task team?
If there is, is there any improvement for that special or task team
on cybercrime? Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much. You will recall, maybe
two institutional issues. The one is that, currently before
Parliament, there is a Bill around issues of cybercrime - cyber
security in general. That is under the auspices of the State
Security Agency. We would also hope that that piece of legislation
will entirely help not only just the State Security Agency on its
own, but broadly it will help and improve the law enforcement
agencies in this country. We hope that that piece of legalisation
will essentially assist all of us in the law enforcement arena.
But ourselves as the SA Police Service, we are also looking at ways
and means of how to improve precisely because issues of technology
largely is an evolving kind of science in essence. Therefore it
places quite a challenge upon us that much as we have specialised
functions within the Police Service that look into issues of
cybercrime, for example, such as unified threats management, UTMs,
among other things and as well as the detective services themselves
in terms of the capacity that they posses in terms of dealing with
issues such as that. But the fact of the matter is that we still
have quite an amount of work that needs to be done in so far as that
area of work is concerned. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, the Directorate for Priority Crime
Investigation, the Hawks, is tasked with dealing with specialised
and sophisticated crimes. Considering the head of this directorate,
Mr Ntlemeza, he expressed, in the Portfolio Committee on Police, his
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concern about the independence of the Hawks. Would you agree that
the current structure which locates the Hawks within the SA Police
Service, SAPS, compromises the independence of the directorate?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, maybe two things. Firstly, in terms of
the issue that hon Michalakis is raising is that, I don‘t know in
what context was the issue raised in so far as the independence of
the Hawks or the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI,
is concerned. Because you are asking for my opinion, my opinion
briefly is that it is not only just about the DPCI, but I do think
that the concept of independence itself in so far as state
institutions turn to be somewhat overblown to some extent.
Independence in this particular instance refers to operational
capability and execution of work at an operational level without the
interference and without any political directives and so on. That‘s
my opinion.
I think this is a debate that we should also have ourselves as
legislatures. For example, what is our understanding of institutions
that are set to be independent and how that independence have to
enhance, for instance, the character of our democracy from time to
time. I think that is part of an ongoing debate, really.
But the specific question in terms of what the head of the DPCI has
allegedly might have said before the portfolio committee, I think it
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is another subject matter that I would like to understand the
context in terms of what was meant by that if indeed it was said.
Thank you very much.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you for the
explanation. I just want to make a follow up. Given that
specialised, advanced and sophisticated crime needs more capital
injections where ultimately the goal is to ensure that these people
are tried in the court of law, but most of the time you find that
the Justice department release them unnecessarily so. Is there any
form of relationship to curb that? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, hon members, ladies and
gentlemen, precisely that issue is quite central to the ongoing
debate about the character and characteristics of crime in South
Africa. The Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster, JCPS,
cluster would have to take discussion about some of these
difficulties that are being experiences at that particular level.
We are of the view that it is possible to overcome some of the
challenges that either the police or prosecutors themselves do
experience on the side of the justice officials. It is possible for
us to overcome some of these particular issues precisely because the
issue of the fight against crime on the one hand and the dispensing
of justice on the other hand have got to be to the benefit of nobody
else but members of the South African citizenry. We are envisaging a
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situation where pretty soon the Justice and Security cluster has to
take these discussions.
We, in terms of our own experiences, were sitting last year in a
strategic sort of a session of senior managers as well as middle
managers in the Police Service. I think the session ends today. We
are also looking at some of these challenges and gaps that actually
do occur in our area of work and the manner in which we have to
resolve them. We trust post this particular point, beyond today, we
will be able to device and design tactics as well as manner of
approaches to deal with a question of the challenges that the hon
members have alluded to. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson and hon Minister, the announcement
that the specialised units are going to be reintroduced created
quite excitement and satisfaction amongst the citizens of this
country. The problem at the moment is why is it taking so long? Do
you have any deadline for the finalisation of this? I am thinking
about the Western Cape where there are drugs, gangs and similar
issues. Thank you
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson and hon members, there is
Question 24 that speaks exactly to that issue the hon member has
raised. I think it is question that has been raised by hon
Michalakis.
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In the light of that, unless I am given an express permission by the
hon Chair as well as the hon member in question that I can actually
jump and respond to that question. Essentially, it is a new
question, but that question is already on the Order Paper as we
speak.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Mr Minister,
what I understood to be was why is it taking long to re-establish
the specialised units, and not specifically that the Minister speaks
to Question 24. What are the problems? Why are they taking too long
to be reset up, or be set up – the specialised entities? That‘s what
I understood from hon Terblanche.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson, nevertheless, I will
respond even if it [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Slightly
different from Question 24, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yeah, even if it would mean repeating
myself, but I will respond. As per the announcement by the President
largely in the state of the nation address in 2015, these units have
been established. One unit is around the question of narcotics and
enforcing. It is called the SA Narcotics Enforcement Bureau, as well
as the National Bureau for Illegal Firearm Control and Priority
Violent Crime. These specialised units were established within the
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Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation as well as the
Detective Services to focus on relevant mandates.
Establishing units such as these, for instance, thus take time of
its own precisely because you have to take people for training and
also structure them in a particular manner and so on. The fact of
the matter is we are looking at further capacitating these units
that have been re-established.
They have also started doing work in the field of the fight against
drugs and so on. That is why, amongst other things, we have also
witnessed the dismantling of drug laboratories in this country and
also the locking up of some drug kingpins and. It is work in
progress - the question is of capacitation. The units have been reestablished within the DPCI. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Remuneration/benefits for SAPS members
1.
Mr
L
B
Gaehler
(Eastern
Cape:
UDM)
asked
the
Minister
of
Police:
(1)
Whether, with regard to the remuneration and benefits for
members of the SA Police Service, all police officers are
eligible for an on duty death benefit from the day of the
resumption of duty; if not, why not; if so, what are the
relevant details;
07 MARCH 2017
(2)
Page 49 of 194
(a) what has been the danger allowance amount for police
officers over the past five years and (b) what is the
current position regarding the police officers who do not
complete the shooting test?
CO09E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, yes, all employees whether
appointed in terms of the SA Police Service Act of 1995 or the
Public Service Act of 1994 are eligible for an on duty death benefit
from their date of appointment. The circumstances in which a death
grant is paid to a dependent are governed by policy number five of
2016, policy on Death Grant for Employees of the SA Police Service,
SAPS. The payment of a death grant to a deceased employee‘s
dependents may be considered if an employee died while on duty or
died in an extraordinary-circumstance or circumstances related to
his or her duties or as a result of his or her duties whether the
employee was on or off duty.
The circumstances in which a death grant is paid may from time to
time be reviewed by a national commissioner. The payment of a death
grant is not a benefit but a discretionary payment of which is the
exclusive prerogative of the national commissioner. The payment of a
death grant is made as an act of grace or favour and is taxable. The
payment of the death grant is subject to the availability of funds
and may at the soul discretion of the national commissioner be
increased or decreased after consultation with the chief financial
officer.
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The danger allowance dispensation was terminated in 2001 with the
conclusion of safety and security sectoral bargaining council
agreement No 4 of 2001. This introduced a service allowance
dispensation, which was a consolidation of the danger allowance,
special danger allowance and stand by allowance into one amount of
R400. The amount has never been reviewed since 2001 and the matter
is currently on the agenda of the Security Sector Skill Development
Council, SSSDC, for review.
As a remedial action, members are given additional opportunities to
complete the required training programme. Failure by members to
successfully complete the competency assessment after attending
these additional training opportunities results in alternative
placement within the non-operational environments. These members are
not issued with firearms during their alternative placement. Thank
you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Minister, often times police work under very
threatening circumstances, combating crime whereby criminals are
heavily armed and are ready to shoot to kill. In many instances, a
lot of police have died on duty. Hon Minister, we have the
statistics of police killed on duty in this regard. Now, how does
the current remuneration and benefit motivate the police to do more
work or demoralise them? Are you happy with the current
remuneration? Are our police able to do more work? Furthermore,
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those who are not trained and have no firearms, are they not in
danger of being killed?
Chairperson, yesterday, criminals robbed a hospital in PE. The
nurses are toyi-toying because of nonsafety. So, what do we do
because the morale of our police is very low. Are you happy with the
amount they are paid? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson and hon members, the
question of job satisfaction is not necessary determined by the
amount that you get paid, but it‘s the totality of the rest of the
conditions of work that essentially determine the amount that you
get paid.
Now, remember that signing up for police work, for instance, is
largely a calling as opposed to the benefit that you will derive out
of it. So, of paramount importance is the question of your
commitment and dedication to contribute in peace and stability of
the country. So, that‘s a starting point.
Another point is that, indeed, I am not happy not just about the
question of a salary, but also about certain instances about some of
the conditions of work that they obtain and that are prevalent in
some of our police stations, for instance, I have been exposed to
situations where some of the policing infrastructure is either
dilapidated and getting worn out, and therefore that contribute also
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to working conditions that are not necessarily so healthy and
attractive to members of the police both individually and
collectively. In certain instances, you hear of police stations that
have no ablution block, there are no toilets and so forth.
So, that‘s very concerning. Therefore, this means quiet a lot of
work, yes on our side, but also working with other state agencies in
finding a solution, for instance, to some of the issues pertaining
to the working conditions of our police members on the ground. Thank
you very much, Madam Chair.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke maswabi gore ... [Chairperson, it
is an embarrassment that...]
... Minister is sharing the frustration that we are having as
members that the facilities ...
... tse mapodisi a direlang mo go tsona ga di mo maemong a a
siameng. [... wherein the police have to work are under-resourced.]
So, you ask yourself a question that if the Minister is sharing the
frustration who is going to solve a problem. But my question, Hon
Chair, to the Minister is about this danger allowance. Previously,
police were transported from home to work by police cars, but
recently they use public transport to and from work and their lives
are in danger.
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How are you going to or do you have any strategy or any plan to make
sure that our men and women in blue are protected because, for
instance, a particular policeman has just arrested a druglord in an
area and that policeman must travel in the same route as the
gangsters are using. Aren‘t we putting their lives at danger? Your
strategy with regards to danger allowances can‘t it cover those
instances? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair and members, maybe three things:
firstly, I am not saying I am frustrated, I am saying these are the
things that have been brought to our attention and we need to work
on them and of course, it is concerning that we have such working
conditions that are affect our members and of course, we are
committed to attending to those particular issues.
Secondly, is that the question of the danger allowance – I have
alluded to this issue earlier on when I was responding that it
hasn‘t being reviewed since 2001 and it is currently before the
bargaining council to look into reviewing the amount in question.
Therefore, all the other issues relating to the question of the
working conditions, allowances and so forth will then be looked into
at the bargaining council chamber level and so on. The opinion is
solicited about the protection of our members.
The starting point is that the solution does not rely on excluding
members of the police service and isolating them away from our
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communities, for example, it doesn‘t lie in there, that‘s not
protection. If you talk of protection, a starting point around the
issue of protection is the manner and the extent to which our
members of communities own the police service and members of the
police service.
If we say that the police service and members of the police service
individually and collectively are ours, it means we have a
responsibility all of us as community members to protect members of
the police and therefore an identifying them as members of our
respective communities.
It is for this reason that on the one hand, we are advocating for
more constructive engagements between members of the police and
communities. But you can‘t then say that we are saying do that and
build better constructive bridges between yourselves as the police
and members of your respective communities, on the other hand, then
say to them, but you must also treat members of the community as
suspect because those people are potentially a danger to you. So, I
think that will be a contradiction in one form or the other.
So, I think it‘s quiet a complex question indeed on the one hand,
and that‘s why we are then saying to members of the police, for
example, that whilst we have to improve the relations between
community members and the police service, but also institutionally
within, we must then adhere and continue to strengthen mechanisms
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around issues of protection, the basic issues, for example, for
police members. If you find yourself in a critical situation, you
know what the drill is, call for a backup, for example. But also
make sure that at all material times have a bulletproof vest on and
so forth. So, those are the basics amongst other things that we are
also emphasising upon. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Minister, mine is also relating to the danger
allowance or service allowance. I just want to check, Minister,
during our oversight visit, it came to our attention that many a
times, there is a challenge or reluctance from the side of the
police to go and work outside, especially with regard to the issue
of danger allowance. I just want to check with the Minister if there
is any possibility to really come and incentivise the programme
itself so that you don‘t really compromise the quality? Thanks,
Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, as I had said that look the
matter is before the bargaining council and our inputs, for
instance, as the Ministry, should also be directed towards the
bargaining council as part of arriving at a particular settlement,
for example, to then say look we need to take stock of the fact that
this issue of the danger allowance has not been reviewed for quiet a
period of time, from 2001 to now is quiet some years really.
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So, I am saying, it should have been subjected to regular reviews on
the one hand and I think that‘s an ideal situation on an ongoing
basis, so that you wouldn‘t have to create so much of gaps from one
period to another and so on. So, if we consider the question of
salary negotiations, which are annually, conducted in the context of
a bargaining council and so forth and the reviewal of working
conditions. This issue shouldn‘t have been left out. I think it
should have been part of the ongoing reviews.
I would really hope that the bargaining council also steps up an
effort to speed up this issue around the resolution in reviewing the
current situation in so far as the danger allowances are concerned.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Minister, I think you are well aware that the
proper training of our policemen and women would already go far away
in reducing the need for danger pay and death benefits on duty.
However, I think a lot of the time that is exactly what is letting
down our policemen and women is the fact that they don‘t have proper
resources and the fact that although we have a lot of good policemen
and women, the training isn‘t always there. Would the Minister
acknowledge that that problem does exist and would the Minister
commit to giving those two issues, the lack of resources and the
lack of proper training, to give them proper attention within the
department? Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, the question of resources – we
have alluded to this point and not only now in terms of this
question and answers session, but also in other interventions that
we have made in the past that there is a need to look at the broader
policing resources and infrastructure, for an example, in so far as
the policing is concern because there a number of gaps that are
there and some of those gaps are pronounced and exacerbated by the
country‘s situation, for instance, in so far as the urban and rural
divide. Now, it is important that we also do need to respond to
that.
In many places that we go to, you will find community members, for
an example, complaining about access to policing services - the
absence of a police station or the absence of this and the other
kind of resource and so forth. These are the matters that we are
focussing on to look at how best we begin to address them amongst
other things.
I think the second part of the question, yes, is about training.
Training is also an evolving a function per se, but I don‘t think
that you will then allude the issue of the danger to which the
police members are subjected to and then allude that to the issue of
training per se. I don‘t think it‘s largely that, it‘s probably a
number of combination of factors also even at that particular level.
The training that the police are subjected to is quiet comprehensive
amongst other things. But of course, you can‘t then say that because
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you have trained people, you shall therefore not look at analysing
whether there are gaps in your training mechanisms for instance and
how else can you then improve training itself. Thank you very much,
Madam Chair.
Implementation of resolution
17.
Mr C F B Smit (Limpopo: DA) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether, with reference to the Motion without Notice that was
tabled in the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) by Mr G
Michalakis on 1 September 2015, his department has taken any
consideration into implementing the resolution by the NCOP; if
not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO25E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair and hon members, incidents of
crime in rural areas are not recorded in the annual report of the
SAPS. These incidents are monitored, verified and listed by a task
team consisting of officers from the Crime Intelligence Division as
well as Visible Policing and Component Crime Register. They are
reported quarterly to the Priority Committee for Rural Safety.
We prioritised rural safety in 2016 and in view of this, the Visible
Policing Division started a process of reviewing the current Rural
Safety Strategy, thereby ensuring a comprehensive and holistic
approach towards rural safety. The implementation of the Rural
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Safety Strategy is an indicator in Programme 2, Visible Policing in
the Annual Performance Plan, APP of the SAPS for 2016-17 financial
years.
The progress in of implementation in rural and rural-urban police
stations is reported on a quarterly basis in the current APP. The
target in the APP for this financial year is that a total of 759 of
the 879 identified rural and rural-urban police stations must
implement the Rural Safety Strategy. The figure of the rural and
rural-urban police stations that have implemented the strategy
stands at 808 for the third quarter of 2016-17 financial years.
A national joint operation and intelligence structure, Rural Safety
Priority Committee which consists of internal and external roleplayers to ensure that rural safety is managed in a co-ordinated and
integrated manner is in place. This committee meets on a quarterly
basis.
The Priority Committee on Rural Safety is in place at provincial,
cluster and police station levels to ensure that rural safety is
managed and co-ordinated. The SAPS does not have a specialised rural
safety unit in place. The established reaction forces within the
Operational Response Services Division such as the Special Task
Force and the Tactical Response Teams are deployed to assist in
rural areas as the need arises. Where necessary, a special task team
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can also be established by a provincial commissioner to deal with
serious and violent incidents. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Minister, obviously that is not working at this
stage if we look at the spiral in violent crimes happening in rural
areas. It is clear that South African living in rural areas, farmers
and farm workers alike, are facing extreme danger. According to
information provided in the parliamentary reply the SA Police
Service noted 49 farm murders in the past year, 2016. The number of
murders according to the agricultural union, TLU SA was as high as
72 during the same time. I would like to know what still needs to
happen for your department to actually establish a specialised unit
to deal with this very serious and escalating crime that is getting
out of hand. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair and hon members, the question of
rural safety must also be seen in the context of the broader
developmental challenge that this country is undergoing; the
question of the urban-rural divide. I think it is in that context
that we should be able to look at it.
The fact of the matter though is that, if you take statistics
starting from 1999, the incidences were quite high up in excess of
about 500 per annum. Worst still was 2006-07 financial year where
that figure went up to 1 069 incidences. However, what we have seen
from the period 2006 to 2007 is a decrease in the incidences. For
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instance, the 49 that you are referring to, is attributed to the 307
incidences that have taken place there. Therefore, essentially what
we are witnessing is a particular decrease insofar as the issue of
rural and farm murders statistics do indicate.
Our analysis shows that as and when we stick to the principles of
the implementation of the Rural Safety Strategy and improving the
work between the police and community members in rural areas, for
instance, we are yielding much better results at that particular
level. We should continue to do that.
I think the question of whether we should deal with the problem by
setting up specialised units is a matter for debate. When you say
that, you mean the person who commits murder in the township context
or some urban environment for instance, is different from the one
who commits murder on a farm or somewhere in a rural area. I do not
think that is an issue which requires specialisation.
More often that not, people mistaken the question of specialised
units as we have them in the fight against drugs or gangsterism and
Family, Child and Sexual Offences, FCS and think that is the route
we should necessarily take. They forget that the reason why we
established specialised units there is because the functions
themselves are specialised. Therefore, we should not easily draw
correlations along those lines and think that because we have
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specialised units, that would mean a decrease in the crime trends
and so forth.
The fact of the matter is that we need to do more of the work that
we are doing with the agricultural unions as well as other community
structures on the farms and in rural areas. We need to enhance the
structural mechanisms amongst other things and concentrate on that
which works and yields better results. We will continue to make
progress. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, the Minister informed us that
progress has been made with the implementation of the Rural Safety
Strategy and that is quite good to hear about it. I wonder whether
the Minister will be able to inform us where exactly it has been
implemented. Secondly and more importantly, what is its success? Did
the implementation bring crime statistics down in those areas? Can
the Minister just give us the details on that? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, I certainly do think that is
quite an involved question and it is not something which can be
dealt with in a minute or two. Perhaps what I can propose, through
you Madam Chair, is to appear before the select committee and
provide a focus analysis on the question of what work has been done
in the implementation of the Rural Safety Strategy and what results
have been yielded. That is my proposal. Thank you very much.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The proposal is that the Minister goes
and gives a detailed presentation in the committee.
Ms Z V NCITHA: Chair, I am happy that the Ministry is confirming the
importance of rural community safety. However, on our oversight
visits to these communities we pick up more the issue of shortage of
vehicles. Therefore, I would like to know from the Minister the
strategy that they have to prioritise rural communities on the issue
of vehicles especially because they are very scattered. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks for that question. Indeed we are
focusing on the issue of shortage of vehicles and we are doing so in
two ways. The one is the whole question of the urgency for us to
review the fleet management system in SAPS. There are those of you,
for instance hon Terblanche, who can also provide some examples
around this including members who have also conducted oversight
visits. More often that not, you‘ll find that the time span or the
time it takes to fix a vehicle is too long. The turnaround time for
our government garages is extremely problematic. Therefore, you‘ll
find many examples right across provinces and the country that there
are such particular difficulties. That talks to the need for us to
review certain aspects of fleet management so that we can improve
efficiency. If you take a vehicle in for servicing, let it be
serviced and be out on the road. That is what we require as opposed
to the time it really spends at the workshop. That is one thing.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: But, hon member, why don‘t you allow
the hon Minister to finish and then I‘ll take a point of order?
Please proceed! That‘s not a point of order, mam. You‘ll ... Order,
Ms Mokwele! When you make your supplementary, you‘ll get that. Do
not interrupt the speaker on the floor. Proceed please!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The second aspect is with regard to what
constipates hon Mokwele, the issue of adding more vehicles and
vehicles for a specific purpose. For example, in rural areas you
require a particular type of vehicle to conduct policing as opposed
to an urban area. Therefore, hon members you might have probably
noticed that two weeks ago we started a programme that focuses on
adding more vehicles for policing purposes. In Mpumalanga we added
218 cars for that purpose. However, alongside the 218 cars there
were 467 personnel added.
The Western Cape is to follow pretty soon. We will certainly give
you the dates. KwaZulu-Natal will also follow pretty soon and so
forth. Therefore, there are a number of these particular programmes
that we are beginning to focus on as far as this question of cars is
concerned. All I am saying on this question of cars is that we must
also deal with the introduction of efficiency insofar as vehicle or
fleet management is concerned. On the other hand we must also add
vehicles on the existing pool of cars for policing purposes. Thank
you very much, Madam Chair.
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Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Minister, I am very much disappointed in how you
actually respond. You respond as if you are an official and you are
not. You are must give us tangible answers. Otherwise Chair ...
... jaaka ke tswa metsemagaeng, rona baagi ba kwa metsemagaeng ga re
bone tirelo go tswa mo Lefapheng la Sepodisi ka gonne ga gona
didiriswa. Tona, fa e se dikoloi, ke dipampiri tsa go kwala ga diyo
kwa diseteišeneng tsa maphodisi tse di leng kwa metsemagaeng. Fa
gona le dipampiri, ga gona mapodisi a a lekaneng go dira gantsi
bosigo.
O ka fitlhela e le gore seteišene se na le lephodisi le le lengwe,
le e leng gore le tshwanetse gore le tlhokomele metsana e e ka nnang
metlhano kgotsa lesome.
Jaanong, ke batla go itse gore mo lefapheng la gago, ke eng se o se
dirang go netefatsa gore diseteišene tseno tsa maphodisi, di bona
didiriswa tse di feletseng go netefatsa gore baagi ba kwa metseng ba
bona ditirelo fela jaaka ba kwa ditoropong ba ba tshwanang le lona
jaana motl Tona? Ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs
follows.)
[... we, people in the rural areas do not get service from the South
African Police Services due to a shortage of resources. If there is
a police van, then there are no papers. On many occasions, there is
no policemen to assist especially at night.
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On most instances, you will find one member of police in a station
who is responsible for five to ten villages.
Now, my question: What is it that you intend to do to ensure that
there is enough resources in the rural areas? People in the rural
areas deserve to services from SAPS the same way the ones in the
urban do. I thank you.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair and hon members, it is probably
for the first time that I would agree with the hon member on the
question of resources and I hope it is the last. [Laughter.] This is
precisely because it is a valid question. Let me start here because
I do not disagree with her point that I am not an official but I am
whatever. The fact of the matter is that, if a vehicle takes two
weeks before it gets attended to at the workshop level, it means for
two weeks we are unable to do policing. That is the issue that I am
referring to when I say it is important for us, as we have done, to
urgently take up the issue in terms of reviewing our fleet
management system so that the manner in which fleet is managed,
should not negatively impact on service delivery.
We need to introduce efficiency in providing services to our people.
We must ensure that all the instruments that we utilise for such a
purpose are adequately in order and are sharpened. That is the point
that I was braising. Indeed this is where my agreement with her
comes in, that there is a challenge insofar as the policing
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infrastructure in rural is concerned. We do need to focus on this
and we are focusing on it.
In certain rural areas we have also begun to build police stations
and if not, satellite stations. Where there are no satellite
stations, we have mobile police stations. The fact of the matter is
that we are concentrating on a long-term solution. For some of us,
before we reach a police station we have to travel three kilometres
because we live in a rural area. That is quite a concerning issue.
There is also a matter which is police-related. This is a question
of how we will have to, amongst other things, utilise the resources
that we have not only just from policing but at the community level
in rural areas to make sure that community structures in rural areas
are also activated to be part of the expansion and networking around
policing infrastructure to improve peace and stability conditions in
rural areas. That is a matter that we are focusing on and, of
course, it is going to take us time to redress this urban and rural
divide which is hugely pronounced, which then impacts negatively on
the roll-out of infrastructure in our rural areas.
We are undertaking the reviewing of allocation of resources in
different areas because, amongst other things, there is a need for
us to move with trends and the time in terms of the growth of
population and also the change in the patterns of settlement.
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Therefore, these are areas of policy review which we are beginning
to look at. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Relationship with Acting National Police Commissioner
58.
Ms T J Mokwele (North West: EFF) asked the Minister of Police:
(1)
What is the nature of his relationship with the Acting
National Police Commissioner (ANPC);
(2) whether the ANPC‘s attempts to derail the investigation of
the Independent Police Investigative Directorate into his
affairs are acceptable; if not, what is the position in this
regard; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO66E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair and the hon members, the
relationship between the Minister of Police and the Acting National
Police Commissioner, ANPC, is a normal employment relationship. The
Minister does not support any attempts to derail any investigations
by any competent institution. As a matter of fact, the Minister is
not aware of any attempts by the ANPC to derail the investigations.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Moh T J MOKWELE: Motl Tona, go bontsha fa wena le Rre Phahlane lo na
le sengwe se se tshwanang se se dirang gore lo kopane. Ke bua jaana
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gonne Rre Phahlane o dirisitse maatla a gagwe jaaka ... (Translation
of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Minister, this means that you and Mr Phahlane
are birds of the same feathers as Mr Phahlane has used his powers as
well, as...]
... the ANPC to file papers to stop the investigations. The
Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, consistently
wanted him to be investigated. I don‘t agree with you, hon Minister,
when you say that you are not aware.
You are aware because the IPID reports to you, and also the ANPC
reports to you. Again, in response to the portfolio committee, he
himself outlined that there is a tension between himself, the IPID
Commissioner and the IPID Manager. You therefore cannot be silent,
hon Minister, by not acting upon this matter. You were quick, hon
Minister, to suspend the IPID Manager.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please ask your question because your
time is running up!
Ms T J MOKWELE: When are you going to stand up and be man enough to
tell the country what is your relationship ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your time is running up, hon member!
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Ms T J MOKWELE: Ba ntshosetsa motl Modulasetilo. Potso ya me Tona ke
gore ke eng se se dirang gore wena le Mokomišenara wa Bosetšhaba le
nne ... [I am being intimidated hon Chairperson, my question to you
Minister is: What makes you and the National Commissioner ...]
... so close in such a way that you are so quiet in terms of what is
happening about his investigation? Thank you vey much.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chairperson and the hon members, I‘m
certainly not going to be competent enough to reflect on the issue
of our extent of duty between myself and the acting national
commissioner. The allegations have been made that we almost look
alike and so forth. So, I‘m not going to be able to reflect on that
issue. But also similarly, with regards to the issues that have been
raised from the most sort of general angle, really, I have alluded
to the fact that, the relationship between the acting national
commissioner and the Minister of Police is an employment
relationship. That is the one.
Secondly, if there are any investigations taking place, let‘s allow
those investigations to be conducted. Of course, I‘m not in support
of any attempt to derail the investigations. Therefore, for the
matter that is now before court because there are certain technical
and or otherwise issues that are being challenged, and so it goes;
I‘m also not going to stop those who want to pursue those particular
matters for the purposes of legal clarity. I can also not say to
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them that they must not pursue their rights in that regard, and so
it goes!
My response to the question still stands that, firstly, I‘m not
aware of any particular effort to derail the investigations. As a
matter of fact, my understanding is that there are ongoing
investigations that should be given a chance to continue. Similarly,
if there are issues that require to be clarified at a legal level,
we only have one platform and avenue in this country for such
purposes, and that is a court of law.
We should, therefore, let those matters also be heard out at the
court and be ventilated in whatever form. Essentially, all of us
we‘ll then be guided by whatever it is that will be decided upon by
the competent court of law. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I am standing on a point of order. There
is a part of being a man enough that the minister did not respond
to. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The point of order is not sustained!
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, hon Minister, Mr McBride, the Head of
the IPID, on an occasion said that he referred his investigations to
you. Are you then saying that Mr McBride is a liar? If you are not
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saying that, why have you not acted on those investigations by the
IPID? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, again, what is not being said
here is what investigations are those? It has just being referred to
as the investigations. What investigations are those that have been
referred to the Minister of Police, and those which the Minister of
Police is said to have not acted on them? Now, for me, I think that
we should stay away from making general and sweeping statements,
really.
I am saying this because, that is absolutely to nobody‘s assistance.
So, I don‘t think I must have heard Mr McBride saying that at some
point, he might have cited something or not, I really do not know.
Suppose he said it, I would like to be given specifications around
the whole question of what cases are we talking about that are said
not to have been attended to, and so it goes.
With regards to specifically Question 58 which alludes to the acting
national commissioner. Therefore, according to my understanding,
there are ongoing investigations. The investigations pertaining to
the acting national commissioner are not yet concluded. I would then
want to know, which investigations have been referred to me which I
have not acted upon? This is quite puzzling for me! Thank you very
much, Madam Chair.
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Mr M T MHLANGA: Chairperson, firstly, I think that we should welcome
the response of the hon Minister. This also needs to be cleared, hon
Chair. In this regard, since we learnt of these things through the
media platforms, which is not correct for us to do so as the Members
of Parliament, is there any formal complaint that was submitted to
you, hon Minister, with regards to your working relationship as per
your working contract and the working environment to your office?
Secondly, what measures are you putting in place to readdress the
damaging image which is portrayed by the media? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Mhlanga, there should be one
supplementary question. Minister, you can take two, but the rule is
that you should take one supplementary question. Hon, Mokwele,
order!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, there hasn‘t been any complaint
submitted to me, and I‘m not aware of any particular complaint in
relation to the relationship between myself and the acting national
commissioner. Mind you, the relationship between the Minister and
the acting national commissioner is the relationship of an executive
authority and an accounting officer.
I wonder why anybody would have a problem with that, for an example,
because that‘s more of the constitutionally sort of defined kind of
roles that one has to play. If the acting national commissioner
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would be the hon Ms Mokwele, for instance ... [Laughter.] ... we
would still have that relationship. I am just making an example.
Madam Chair, I don‘t know ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected, Minister!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I do not know why the hon members are having
an objection when I‘m making an example that involves Ms Mokwele?
So, I‘m just making an example, of course, with regards to that.
Coming to the question of addressing these allegations, I think that
it is a complex matter because there are a number of role-players
that are part of the churning up of this negative image, for an
example. It is calculated for a number of different ends amongst
other things.
Now, I think that this country has a history, for an example, of a
negative image that has always been pasted and almost permanent with
regards to the issue of policing and the SA Police Service, etc. I
think that it has been perpetuated either from one to another. I
also think that, what we are beginning to see is the sustenance of
that kind of an agenda, for an example.
I have argued this somewhere else and perhaps I am still arguing
this point that, if for instance, you want to undermine democracy,
you must essentially portray this particular negative image and
weaken the policing institutions. Perhaps, also, the relevant
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justice sort of functions, so that the ordinary members of the
society on the ground, would not have confidence and hope on the
institutions that are designed to foster peace and stability, for
the purposes of development in this country.
So, in a sense, those that are embarking on all these negative kind
of objectives in so far as the SAPS is concerned, I think that they
know what they are doing. It is calculated for a particular sort of
some reasons, and so forth. So, I think that at some other point,
hon Mhlanga, I‘ll spend more time to just simply unpack the issue in
terms of what the kind of the situation it is, including the roleplayers that are quite central to this particular matter. Thanks
very much, Madam Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir!
Mr O S TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, can you just maybe
tell us whether any formal registered criminal cases are being
investigated against the acting national commissioner, and if it is
so, Sir, have you ever considered a possible suspension of the
acting national commissioner? Obviously, there are quite serious
allegations levelled against the acting national commissioner. Thank
you, Chairperson.
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, no, I am not aware of any
criminal charges that are being investigated against the acting
national commissioner. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Sir! That makes us proceed
... [Interjections.] Order! Order, members! Order! We proceed,
members, to the question raised by hon Mohapi.
Problems with accessing policing services
3.
Mr M J Mohapi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether his department has any plans to address the lack of
access to policing services (details furnished) which many poor
communities are still experiencing; if not, why not; if so, (a)
what plans and (b) what are the further relevant details?
CO11E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, hon members, the SA Police
Service, SAPS, undertook a study of accessibility to police services
in the provinces during the year 2012. The study revealed huge gaps
and or demands for new contact points. As part of the study, the
SAPS identified areas where police service contact points could be
established to reduce the distances travelled by citizens to access
police services. The provinces made use of these findings in order
to determine how to address these needs. Most of the needs are being
addressed at provincial level by establishing police contact points,
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satellite and or mobile units and where affordable, building new
police stations.
Projects are planned in the Annual Performance plan as part of the
Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF. Effective resource
management is indeed an important issue and is addressed by
management during the planning and budgeting process annually. All
police stations are assessed and posts are distributed in accordance
with the identified needs and available budget. Policing at local
level is performed by police stations, provincial specialised units
and national specialised units. As a result of the Khayelitsha
Commission, the allocation of resources in terms of fixed
establishments is currently being contested in the Equality Court in
Cape Town. What needs to be mentioned in regard to the issues raised
is that the SAPS make use of the Statistics SA census and
projections for police stations or counted areas. Data collected at
police stations include amongst others; population trends, workload
and other demographic changes. A manual on the data that is taken
into consideration is available at police stations and on the SAPS
website.
Currently police stations are being built in different parts of the
country including some rural areas and townships and in certain
locations, additional contact points like mobile police stations are
being utilised to extend access to policing services in these areas.
Lastly, the system which SAPS utilises to identify policing needs
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and demands is an evolving system and will require adjustments going
forward to ensure its relevance and accuracy. Thank you very much
hon Madam Chair.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Chair, hon Minister, let me welcome the study
which will address the issue of the satellite, mobile and the real
police stations and I want to compliment the role played by the SAPS
regardless of the limited resources. In particular the Ndirimbelwani
in Kroonstad who regardless of limited resources they are still
working hard to ensure that they also address their plight of
ensuring that they bring safety to our communities. My question will
be specific. South Africa it‘s a unitary state Minister and in most
instances local municipalities can also play a role. There are many
underutilised buildings that can also play that role. Is there any
way that the Minister can engage the municipalities in terms of
availing such buildings which can also assist in terms of availing
the infrastructure for the police? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I do think that is possible. Maybe it does
talk to the point that I rose earlier and that is the question of
the need for us to look at how do we use and utilise that which we
have and is at our disposal. So if we have the issues such as what
the hon member has raised in terms of buildings and other structures
and so forth I think it is possible for us to engage with the local
municipality around there but that also introduces another point for
us. The need to also engage around how we need to have standing sort
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of a collaborative kind of measures between ourselves and let us say
for instance municipal police structures and precisely because you
will also realise that in most municipalities across the country the
focus of municipal policies around traffic management and so on. And
the question that arises is also which is also an issue that has
been raised with me is the whole question of how do we then begin to
also realise that a policing sort of infrastructure at municipal
level is seen as a force multiply in one form or the other, how do
we begin to collaborate around such issues. So I am saying broadly
speaking, with regard to the issue that is raised by the hon member
here that it is possible that we can have an engagement around the
question of some infrastructure that is also in the hands of some
municipalities. Thank you very much.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Madam Chair, hon Minister, you have made it very
clear that there are no funds for new police stations in Gauteng in
the 16-17 budget. Now Gauteng has a huge increase in migration and
people coming from different provinces to Gauteng. So there is a
huge increase in the crime statistics which I know you are very
aware of and we have got areas like Cosmo City, Albert Luthuli,
Norcom Park, Mapleton in Ekurhuleni, areas in Cullinan,
Blyvooruitsig, and Hammanskraal which are desperately in need of
police stations. So my question to you Minister is firstly, why was
not there a provision made for police stations in Gauteng for the
new budget? And then secondly, when will you be implementing and
building new police stations in Gauteng? And thirdly, how are you
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planning to reduce the crime in those areas because there are no
police stations? Thank you. It is basically one question. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, look, as a matter of fact, just
on one issue that the hon member raised, crime has gone down by 0,6%
in Gauteng in the third quarter of this financial year. So, of
course I am not saying we should then be jiving and be celebrating
and so on because of that but the fact of the matter is that is a
developing trend and that developing trend we need to do more so
that we realise more of a crime reduction in Gauteng. Now, the fact
of the matter is that the question of resources. It is never an
adequate kind of provision per se so you have quite a lot of
competing issues also for resources. Now, and having said that and I
am saying, and I think in the previous intervention that we made we
indicated towards one particular factor and that is our efforts in
also rolling out policing infrastructure in different parts of this
country be it rural areas, urban as well as semiurban areas and we
will continue to do that.
And I am sure that these issues that the hon member is also raising
about shortages of police stations in those particular areas is a
matter that also continuously we will continue to receive attention
to try and address such a backlog for example. So we do have an
interest in ensuring that crime in Gauteng and not only in Gauteng
but also in the different parts of this country has got to come
down. Thank you very much.
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Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister in this one South Africa
of ours with federal principles of course for those of us who
attended the 20 year celebration last week Friday we had that. This
question is not very different from the one that I asked you last
year where I was specifically talking about KwaZulu-Natal and in
your response the indication was in respect of KwaZulu-Natal even
the very few police stations that we have, most of them allocated in
the cities and towns while policing people in the rural areas for
example in Harding there is just one police station for the whole
municipal area of uMuziwabantu.
Kodwa laphaya endaweni yaseMzumbe mhlonishwa kunesiteshi samaphoyisa
okuthiwa Umsinsini Police Station eyakhiwa ezimobeni ngaleyaminyaka
yakudala kodwa lesisteshi samaphoyisa isebenzela [serve] abantu
baseMzumbe kwase kuba nesicelo kudala mhlonishwa bayakwazi abaphambi
kwakho sokuthi lesisteshi samaphoyisa sisuke eMsinsini ngoba sakhiwe
ezimobeni ukuze iyobekwa [located] la kukhona khona imiphakathi kuya
ngako-Fokiseni ngaKwaNdelu Mzumbe KwaHlongwa. Manje [so] selumiphi
lelo daba lokuthi lesosteshi samaphoyisa ngoba sakhelwa ukuthi
sisebenze abantu baseMzumbe kodwa hayi ezimobeni ngenxa yokuthi
yakhelwa ukuthi ivikele umlungu oyedwa eplazini manje uhulumeni wase
esevuma ukuthi izosuka eMsinsini ingene emphakathini. Lolu daba uma
ngase kulunge lona nje okungenani ngoba manje izinto zakho zonke
zihamba kancane. Zihamba kancane mhlonishwa iziteshi zamaphoyisa
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azikho nawe uyasho azikho kodwa lokhu okuncane okunokwenzeka,
makwenzeke phela. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[But hon member, in the Mzumbe area there is a police station that
is called the Umsinsini Police Station that was built in the
sugarcane fields a long time ago though this police station serves
the people of Mzumbe whereas hon member, it was requested a long
time ago – those who were before you know that – that this police
station should be moved from Umsinsini and be located where there
are communities along Fokiseni in the KwaNdelu, Mzumbe, KwaHlongwa
areas as it is located in the sugarcane fields. So, how far is that
issue of the police station now as it was built to serve the people
Mzumbe and not the sugarcane fields - it was built to protect just
one white man in a farm – but at the end the government had agreed
that it would be moved from Umsinsini and be located in the
community. It would be better if at least this one issue can be
corrected because all the issues in your department are moving at a
very slow pace. They are moving very slow hon member, for there are
no police stations as you also mentioned that they are not enough
but at least let this one that could be done, be done please.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the question?
Mr M KHAWULA: Hayi, uzwile umhlonishwa. Ungizwile. [No, the hon
member has heard. He heard me.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, ...
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Cha, mhlonishwa, la ngingavumelani khona nawe wudaba owuthi wena
izinto zami zonke zihamba kancane, cha, angivumelani nawe kuleyo
ndawo ngoba kuleyo ndawana kule mibuzo ephambilini eseke
ngayiphendula sizama ukukhombisa ukuthi kwezinye izindawo kukhona
esikwenzayo. Kulungile ke eMsinsini akukenzeki lokhu okushoyo ngoba
akukenzeki vele yiqiniso lokho kodwa ngiyocela ukuthi nginikezwe
nami ithuba lokuthi ngike ngihambe, ngoba ngiyaqala ukuzwa phela
ngodaba lwaseMsinsini, ngiluzwa nje ngiluqabuka khona la, manje
ngicela ukuthi ngike ngizwe ukuthi sasithathwe kuphi leso sinqumo,
sithathwe ubani sokuthi siyosuka lesosteshi samaphoyisa? Asithi
sathathwa ke leso sinqumo, kwase kwenziwani futhi ngaleso sinqumo.
(Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[No, hon member, I do not agree with you when you say that all the
issues in my department are moving slow, no, I do not agree with you
on that point because there are questions that I had previously
answered where I was trying to indicate that in other areas there
are issues that we are attending to. Well it is true that what you
are talking about has not happen as yet in Msinsini but I would also
like to be given a chance to go, as it is the first time I hear
about the Msinsini issue, I am hearing it for the first time today,
firstly, I need to be informed about where that decision was taken,
who took that decision that the police station would be removed? Let
us assume that that decision was taken, what was done about it?]
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, just kancane nje. [a
moment]. The only point of order you will be raising now is that
there is no translation because otherwise you were not going to
interrupt the speaker on the floor. Is that the case?
Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, on a point of order: Yes Chair it is.
You know ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. It will just be on the issue you
are ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: The Minister is too charming we cannot hear him,
more so he is ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is not a point of order
Ms T J MOKWELE: ... please, you must use your man voice. I am
requesting that he uses a man voice. He must stop charming.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Please take ...
that is not a point of order. [Interjections.]
Ubungakaqedi baba? [Were you not done yet, sir?] Hon Dlamini, on
what point are you rising?
07 MARCH 2017
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Ms L C DLAMINI: Chairperson, I have a point of order. On a point of
protecting the Minister [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is protected.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, for the first time to hear that
I am charming.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ngicela ungawungi [charm] leNdlu. [Do
not charm this House, please.] [Laugther.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I so wish I still had my mother around. I
was going to tell her hey you got a charming boy. [Laughter.]
Nevertheless, I was just saying this matter relating to the specific
issue that hon Khawula is raising about Umsinsini Police Station
located in some sugarcane field somewhere it was agreed that it was
going to be moved and so forth. I have to follow that matter up. In
fact, I would like after this session to get more information from
him so that I can indeed look at what transpired with regards to the
relocation of that particular police station. Thanks very much. Next
time around I will try a man voice so I am told.
Man B T MATHEVULA: Ndza khensa Mutshamaxitulu xikan‘we na Holobye wa
swa Timhaka ta Maphorisa. Xivutiso xa mina eka ndzawulo ya vona
hileswaku xana ndzawulo ya vona yi endla yini ku languta leswaku
switichi
swa
maphorisa
swa
tisathelayiti
eka
matikoximakaya
swi
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pfula 24 wa tiawara hikuva u kuma leswaku nkarhi wun‘wana u endzela
exitichini
xa
maphorisa
...
(Translation
of
Xitsonga
paragraph
follows.)
[Ms B T MATHEVULA: Thank you Chairperson as well as the Minister of
Police. My question directed to his department is that I would like
to know what it is doing to ensure that satellite police stations in
rural areas are open for 24 hours because you find that at times you
visit one ...]
... like where I am coming from in Dzumeni in Giyani, Limpopo. You
go there and report a matter...
... u kuma leswaku xitichi xa maphorisa xi pfarile. Hikokwalaho,
ndzi tsakela ku tiva leswaku ndzawulo ya vona yi endla yini ku
tiyisisa leswaku va landzelerisa leswaku switichi swa maphorisa swa
tisathelayiti
swi
pfula.
(Translation
of
Xitsonga
paragraph
follows.)
[... you find that it is closed. Therefore, I want to know what his
department is doing to ensure that it makes a follow up that the
satellite police stations are open.]
Thank you.
07 MARCH 2017
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, and thank you for the question.
Look at two levels. I think the one is it will also be important
that some specific sort of detail of functioning of this particular
satellite police station so that we can take it up with the
provincial management there in terms of how it functions. But, I
will also would want to appeal that I think what we should also try
and do is to strengthen our community structures in interacting with
police management structures for example so that this question
should not have taken you miles of travelling away from Giyani for
instance to here to receive an answer about why that particular
satellite station is not functioning. It is something that has got
to be provided clarity for even at that very same sort of locality
but as I said that depends largely on the question of how well we
utilise community structures including the setting up of community
police forum structures for example so that indeed we keep our work
in so far as the police in check at material times but I think I
would like to get more detail of that particular satellite station
and find out why it is not operating for 24 hours. Thank you very
much.
Reinstatement of specialised units
24.
Mr G Michalakis (Free State: DA) asked the Minister of Police:
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When will his department reinstate specialised units to deal
with specific crimes such as gang- and drug-related violence?
CO32E
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson and hon members, due to the
crime threat identified, the South African Police Service, SAPS, has
re-established specialised units. The President of the Republic of
South Africa in the 2015 and 2016 state of the nation address
pronounced the establishment of the South African Narcotics and
Enforcement Bureau and the National Bureau for Illegal Firearm
Control and Priority Violent Crimes.
These specialised units were established in the Directorate for
Priority Crime Investigation, as well as some focus in the detective
service also. Currently, we are looking at capacitating these
particular units. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, as far as I am aware
there are only two recently established specialised units after
hardly anything happened for a year after it was announced at the
state of the nation address.
When are you going to include the rest of the units such as stock
theft, hijacking and rural safety? We will have to wait another year
to have these units to be established as well?
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The MINISTER OF POLICE: I agree with the assertion that these units
have been recently established, in fact, not in 2017. They were reestablished in 2016 after the President of the Republic had spoken
to this particular matter, but not only that, in various engagements
with community members whether it was in whichever part of the
country, the issue of the resuscitation or re-establishment of the
drug units as well as the issue of the need for us to deal with
gangsterism, for an example, was always an issue from members of our
communities, so we had to respond.
The question of how other units can be considered going forward, I
think is a matter of an ongoing assessment with regard to how those
particular matters would have to be attended to.
Now, the priority now in as far as the question of organised crime
is concerned is a question of drugs as well as the issue of
gangsterism in our communities and that is one prominent matter and
we should, therefore, be given an opportunity to continue to
interact with this issue with regard to capacitation thereof. But
also to look at other broader interventions that have to be made at
a broader societal level to deal with the scourge of drugs and
gangsterism and so it goes. So, thanks very much, Madam Chair.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Madam Chair, maybe Minister I am worried about Free
State, because I am a Freestater. Mangaung is one the metro
municipality, but it doesn‘t have its own police force. I wonder why
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or is it because it is a metro by name and not deeds, because police
force is one of the creation of jobs. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, it sounds like the complaint is
about the Mangaung municipality not establishing a police force. So,
that completely falls outside of my mandate. I don‘t establish any
police force or forces and of course the municipal-led tier of local
government itself is something else. We are part of national
government and we are in our scope of the work area and competency,
it is only at the national level as the police services. So, I won‘t
be in a position to assist the hon member about why the Mangaung
municipality has not established a police force. So, I duly submit
that, I would ask through you that he be assisted to find that
answer, not from me but maybe from the municipality concerned. Thank
you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think that perhaps the select
committee should deal with the different competencies, so that we
can also get to the differences between members of SAPS and the
Metro police and their jurisdictions.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Minister ...
... ndiyaqala ukubona abasetyhini besilwa ngoMphathiswa. Loo nto
ndiyibone namhlanje. Kuphakame umama uMokwena ngapha ...
(Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
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[... this is the first time that I see females fighting over the
Minister. That I saw today. Mama Mokwena stood up from that side
...]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The record will strike that off.
Mr L B GAEHLER: ... emva koko kwaphakama uMama uDlamini ekhweleta.
Intle kakhulu into endiyibone apha ... [... after that, so as not to
be outdone, Mama Dlamini stood up. I liked what I saw today ...]
... hon Minister, the truth of the matter is that, there is major
problem of resources. Some of the police stations are built but you
will find a police station has no vehicles, but getting back to
these specialised units, drugs and gangsters, it is very clear that
your department cannot combat drugs and gangsters alone.
What is the relationship between the other departments for instance
Home Affairs, Social Development, and Public Works? If you talk of
drugs, its 14-year-old boys, 13-year-old boys, and 18-year-old boys,
who are dealing in gangsterism and drugs these two are interrelated.
Now, if you get them out of gangsterism, where do you take them to?
So, it is then very important that there is a good relationship
between the different departments or else we will be unable to
combat the gangsterism and the use of drugs. It is mostly in the
poor townships where these things happen, where there are poor kids.
Some of them are educated without any employment, so, what is the
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relation between Public Works, Expanded Public Works Programme,
EPWP, projects and so on?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Madam Chair, I also fully agree with him on
one question and that is the fact that drugs in our society should
not be seen from a narrow policing end. We need to see the fight
against drugs in a broader context with regard to how well we begin
to mobilise all the necessary institutional structures in
government, but also the broader society to be part of this
particular effort, because we are beginning to hear in certain
areas, for an example, that this drug and gang culture is becoming
almost socialised if I may put it that way, which means that the
fabric of our society has been permeated and penetrated in such a
manner by drug lords, drug operators and gangsters in such a manner
that communities begin to own these particular tendencies and so
forth, these ills that take place in those respective communities.
So, some of the departments that he mentioned are departments that
are part of the security cluster, like, Home Affairs and Social
Development are part of the same cluster. I am aware that Department
of Social Development is doing quite a lot of work in this area on
the question of drugs and the fight against drugs in particular.
What we need to do is to enhance co-ordination mechanisms between
ourselves as law enforcement agencies and other institutional
structures in government as well as community structures including
07 MARCH 2017
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some of the NGOs that work with the Department of Social Development
for an example in the fight against drugs.
As political operative ourselves, I think we have quite a lot work
that needs to be done at community level, to conscientise our people
against the ravages of drugs and proliferation of drugs in our
respective communities so that we ensure that we fight against this
tide of proliferation of drugs, which will inhibit societal
development at the end of the day and so forth.
So, I fully agree with hon Gaehler. The question of resources will
always be an issue but in my view, the constraints around resources
is an issue, but it shouldn‘t be a primary excuse per se for us not
to step up our efforts in the fight against drugs. We should
continue to do that irrespective of whether we are well resourced or
not, but utilising largely the kind of available structures and
resources at our disposal. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Minister, I just want to check with you. We visited
Kimberly where we met with certain group of young people, who are
involved in combating crime, in particular, gangsterism and drug
abuse. You go further to Moqhaka in Kroonstad, in Dinoheng, during
initiation period, there is a challenge of gangsterism and also drug
usage, but my question goes straight to the issue of schools.
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Is there any way, because if you check currently most young people
and as correctly said by hon Gaehler, that young people as early as
8 to 9 years are involved in drugs? Do we have any programmes in
place, particularly a joint programme with the Department of Basic
Education to ensure that we start charity at the level of the
schools?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: As I said earlier on that I am aware that
the Department of Social Development is doing quite a lot of work in
that area, including a focus on schools and youngsters. You will
remember, hon Mohapi that institutions of state function on the
basis of mandates that are accorded to them by both the Constitution
and the law.
In this regards, for instance, the police, their focus is largely on
the question of enforcement of the law in so far as the issue of
drugs and gangsterism is concerned and therefore, we will not be
that competent and be competent enough to render social services to
school going children and so it goes. However, I think the point
that I can take from you is the need for us to also co-ordinate with
these other state departments and agencies to look at ways and means
of how we can assist beyond the question of law enforcement in so
far as the issue of drugs and drug trafficking is concerned. Thank
you very much, Madam Chair.
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, that was the last
supplementary of the last question posed to the Minister of Police.
Earlier on we had a discussion on the availability of ministers and
I undertook initiatives to take the matter further, especially
around the issues of justice and corrections.
I did indicated that we had received a formal apology from the
Minister of Defence, who indicated that she was on an official duty
between two countries, the DRC and Congo Brazzaville. She also
indicated in her letter that the Deputy Minister was unable to
attend to us, because he was in a meeting. That matter is the one
that I undertake to make issue with, because the Deputy Minister
could not prioritise a defence counsel to Parliament. That matter I
will deal with.
I also want to say that, she also indicated that, he had all her
answers, so we have a choice either we can at another cluster insist
that the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans Affairs comes in
and responds or we can take the written responses. I suspect members
want us to say that at the next question time, the Minister of
Defence and Military Veterans Affairs comes in to take all the
questions.
If that is the case, hon members ... [Interjections.] ... you are
not addressing me on this issue. No, I don‘t want to open up this
thing, no. We dealt with this issue earlier on and I am simply
07 MARCH 2017
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indicating why we are breaking earlier for lunch than at one
o‘clock.
Hon members, this House is adjourned. The bells will be rung at
13:55.
Business resumed at 14:03
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, this is a
continuation of what we were doing. Let me take this opportunity to
welcome the Ministers and the Deputy Ministers present here. We are
continuing with the session as we started earlier today. Mr
Michalakis, why are you standing?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, I do not want to take up too
much of your time. However, there was a matter that was raised
earlier during the morning sitting but I did not have a chance to
raise this point. You would have noted that the Chair of the council
said that she would take up the matter of Ministers who were not
here in the previous session. However, I think that it is necessary
that I do rise on the matter of the Minister of Defence that a while
ago I did bring a motion to the House indicating that on a dozen of
occasions ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Michalakis?
07 MARCH 2017
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: ... she did not attend the select committee.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Michalakis?
[Interjections.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS: May I request that this also be taken up with the
Leader of Government Business? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me deal with it. Hon
Michalakis – no, order members. Hon Michalakis, the Chairperson made
a ruling before lunch and it will be unfair to subject the Ministers
that are present here to what was happening in the morning. If you
are not satisfied with the ruling that was made by the Chairperson,
there is a clear process that you have to follow. Can you take your
seat so that we can continue?
PEACE AND SECURITY
Cluster 1
Group B
Building of housing units in West Bank
43.
Mr
B
G
Nthebe
(North
West:
ANC)
asked
International Relations and Cooperation:
the
Minister
of
07 MARCH 2017
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(a) How will the announcement by the Prime Minister of Israel,
Mr Benjamin Netanyahu to build 5 500 housing units in West Bank
affect the two states‘ solution envisaged for this area and (b)
what
is
the
position
of
the
Government
regarding
this
development?
new
CO51E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon House Chairperson, the reply to the question is as
follows: Firstly, South Africa remains deeply concerned about
Israel‘s expansion of settlements in east Jerusalem and the West
Bank.
South Africa also reaffirms the Security Council position
that the establishment of settlements by Israel and the Palestinian
territory occupied since 1967, including east Jerusalem, has no
legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation of International
Law and is a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-state
solution and just, lasting and comprehensive peace.
On several occasions, South Africa has called on Israel to abandon
all settlement expansion activities and we have emphasised that a
two-state solution process is under increasing threat as a
consequence of Israel settlement activity in the West Bank.
The answer to question 2 is as follows: South Africa is firmly
opposed to the building of 55 000 new settlements in Amona in the
West Bank. In 1994, South Africa adopted the internationally
recognised boarders agreed to in 1967. Thank you House Chairperson.
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Deputy Minister, you correctly indicated that this is
also in appreciation of the Security Council resolution. Would you
concede that this government‘s intention is to continue to argue to
the self determination of the Palestine people? Thank you House
Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon House Chairperson, my response to the hon Nthebe
is yes, that is the firm position that the South African government
will follow and that is to fight for the self determination of the
people of Palestine. House Chairperson, as you and all other hon
members will recall, the late Nelson Mandela said, and I quote,
―Unless and until the people of Palestine are free, we cannot be
free.‖ Thank you.
Mr E MAKUE: Hon House Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, we do
know that there is a lot of reluctance from the Israel authorities
to co-operate with the United Nations on the two-state solution but
there are various civil society groups in South Africa, like for
example, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, BDS. Can you indicate to
us what our position is as a country with regards to the Boycott,
Divestment and Sanctions of Israel products and products that are
manufactured and distributed in the occupied territories of the West
Bank?
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Makue, South African
government‘s position is that whilst we do have trade relations with
the state of Israel, South Africans should not purchase products
derived from the occupied territories. That is a clear position that
we have and it is in line with the BDS‘ position as well. Thank you.
Foreign nationals in SA
54.
Mr
M
Chetty
(KwaZulu-Natal:
DA)
asked
the
Minister
of
International Relations and Cooperation:
What is South Africa‘s duty towards foreign nationals that are
in the country as per the diplomatic agreements with other
countries?
CO62E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity. The
answer is as follows. South Africa‘s duties toward foreign nationals
that are in the country as per diplomatic agreements, in other words
diplomats, are enshrined in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic
Immunities and Privileges, and we also refer you to the domestic law
in this regard which is the Diplomatic Immunities and Privileges
Act.
07 MARCH 2017
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Foreign national other than diplomats in South Africa are managed
through immigration laws and regulations that are administered by
the Department of Home Affairs.
Mr M CHETTY: Thank you, Chair. Has the South African government
taken responsibility and engaged the Nigerian ambassador to South
Africa on the death of a Nigerian national, Mr Victor Tochukwu, at
the hands of the SA Police Service?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): The short answer to the hon Chetty‘s Question is, yes
we are in the process of engaging with the Nigerian authorities on
that matter.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon House Chairperson. Hon Deputy
Minister, has the department itself engaged with the Ministry of
Police on this matter? I believe that the Nigerian national was
injured and died at the hands of ... a shooting by ... the SAPS.
This obviously causes a bit of embarrassment for us in the
international arena if a foreign national dies at the hands of the
SA Police. Has your department engaged with the Ministry of Police
on this matter?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Thank you, hon Chairperson. To the hon Michalakis, the
death of any person in South Africa by any other person, be it the
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police or the hon Michalakis himself, constitutes the need for an
investigation. Since this matter is being investigated by the police
it would be in the hands of the police and as such, in terms of our
due process, there would‘ve been an engagement by the Department of
International Relations and Co-operation with the police so that our
engagement with the Nigerian authorities would be able to clarify
such matters.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Thank you, House Chair. Can I find out from the
Minister in the performance of their international diplomatic duties
to what extent does this attack on a foreign national border on
being xenophobic in some sense and the utterances that are made by
people such as the Mayor of Johannesburg, Herman Mashaba, against
foreign nationals? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, I really think we need a conversation
on the matter raised by the hon Mayor Mashaba. We do need a
conversation on that matter.
Very diplomatically and as a colleague, the hon Minister of Home
Affairs approached him and appealed to him to desist. Initially he
agreed to do so and stressed that it was never his intention to
begin the kind of attacks that we witnessed recently.
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However, it was disappointing to learn through the media that Mayor
Mashaba then proceeded to repeat what he had initially said, calling
for all foreign nationals to be kept outside of Johannesburg.
So, that matter is very disappointing. It makes the work of our
diplomats extremely difficult and it‘s almost impossible to defend
when we engage with our counterparts from other countries,
particularly those from the African continent.
Congratulatory announcement
62.
Dr Y C Vawda (Mpumalanga: EFF) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
(a) Where did the information regarding the congratulatory
announcement originate from (details furnished) and (b) how is
the regular lapses in concentration affecting the integrity of
the country?
CO70E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Thank you, hon Chairperson. This is probably the most
difficult of my six Questions in this hon House and the reason I say
that is because I‘ve not had an opportunity to discuss this matter
with the hon Minister Nkoana-Mashabane.
07 MARCH 2017
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She made the statement that is referred to in the Question and I
have the hon Vawda‘s original Question before me which is quite
different from what is contained in the Question Paper. So, I
understand exactly what he is alluding to.
There is a video link on YouTube that I would invite hon members to
watch very carefully, as I have done. Through you Chairperson to the
hon Vawda, in the video link the hon Minister Nkoana-Mashabane
concedes that in congratulating the former Minister of Foreign
Affairs of Ethiopia, she was jumping the gun. If you watch the video
very carefully to the very end, she makes that statement.
It is also important to note that Mr Tedros Adhanom who is the
former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ethiopia, is the sole African
candidate for the position of Director-General, DG, for the World
Health Organisation, WHO, and was subsequently endorsed by the
entire African Union, AU, at the summit. He will be facing
candidates from France, Hungary and Britain. As hon members will be
aware, South Africa being a member state of the AU follows the lead,
in this case, as set by the AU.
So, my hon Minister concedes that she jumped the gun and perhaps it
was inappropriate for her to have said there that she congratulates
Mr Adhanom for becoming the DG because that election will only take
place in May. However, one needs to bear in mind the context in
which she made the statement to the media.
07 MARCH 2017
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Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
Dr Y C VAWDA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. The WHO is a very
important international organisation. I‘m not going to assume that
the hon Minister was au fait to very confidential information. This
may or may not be so, but the fact is that the hon Minister has
indeed placed the WHO in a very awkward position, but more
importantly, the hon Minister has placed South Africa in a very
difficult position.
The Question I am asking the hon Deputy Minister is if he is aware
of what damage control has been done by the department to restore
the confidence that the WHO will in future have in South Africa and
make us party to such confidential information in the future, if
this has been so.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Thank you, hon Chair. In response to the hon Vawda, I
don‘t think it‘s correct to say that South Africa is in a difficult
position; nor do I think it‘s quite correct to say that the WHO is
in a difficult position.
I say this because the election for the DG will only take place in
May, and whilst we as South Africa are fully behind Mr Adhanom of
Ethiopia, it doesn‘t preclude other countries and member states of
07 MARCH 2017
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the WHO from supporting those candidates that they prefer to
support.
The statement by the hon Minister Nkoana-Mashabane is not the be all
and end all of ... [Inaudible.] There will be an election and member
states will support the candidate of their choice.
Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, it is a bit difficult to ask the follow up
Question because Deputy Minister Landers indicated that which is
here before us. So, I will just read what I have as part b in the
document before me. ―How is the regular lapses in concentration
affecting the integrity of the country?‖
Deputy Minister, my take on that is ... you said very clearly that
Minister Nkoana-Mashabane had jumped the gun and I would like to
hear from you whether this can in fact be ascribed to a lack in
concentration or is it because of the enthusiasm that she has to
appoint a committed African leader? Thank you, Chair.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon Deputy
Minister? Order members!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, the hon Makue is quite correct. It is
a question of enthusiasm on the part of the hon Minister Nkoana-
07 MARCH 2017
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Mashabane and I gather, having watched the video where the media was
interviewing her, she was using the opportunity to canvas support
for Mr Adhanom as DG, and in the process became overenthusiastic and
said what she said.
Readmission of Morocco to AU
44.
Mr
S
G
Mthimunye
(Mpumalanga:
ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
International Relations and Cooperation:
(a) How does the readmission of Morocco to the African Union
affect the Government‘s position (details furnished) and (b)
how will it affect the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic‘s right
to self-determination?
CO52E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chair, the reply to the question is as follows: 1(a),
the 28th Ordinary Session of the Assembly of the African Union
decided to admit the Kingdom of Morocco as a new member state of the
African Union, AU, in conformity with articles 9(c) and 29 of the
Constitutive Act of the African Union.
The South African government‘s position remains steadfast in its
support for the right to self-determination and the territorial
integrity of the people Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. South
Africa, with Algeria, Zimbabwe, Angola, Lesotho, Namibia,
07 MARCH 2017
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Mozambique, and Uganda, argued strongly against Morocco‘s admission.
However, 39 member states approved the admission of the Kingdom of
Morocco to the AU because there were no longer preconditions, as had
previously been set by the Kingdom of Morocco.
To answer part (b) of the question, having emerged from colonialism
and apartheid, the Republic of South Africa remains unwavering in
its support for the people of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
in their quest to achieve the inalienable right to selfdetermination. These objectives and principles, as espoused by
articles 3 and 4 of the Constitutive Act of the African Union as
well as article 1(2) of the United Nations Charter, are fully in
support of the right to self-determination by the Sahrawi people.
Thank you.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: House Chair, through you to the Deputy Minister:
At some point in history, Western Sahara was declared what some
people refer to as terra nullius, meaning no man‘s land, by their
former colonial masters, Spain.
The United Nations took a decision that was referred to the
International Criminal Court to determine whether such was true. The
court came to an incorrect conclusion because Western Sahara had
always had indigenous inhabitants. The second determination made by
the court on the claim of the former colonial masters, Spain, was
that Western Sahara had some territorial ties with neighbouring
07 MARCH 2017
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countries. In my view, there is a legal weapon the AU can use to
force Morocco to withdraw from Western Sahara. In your view, if the
African Union is aware of that, why is it not happening?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): The hon Mthimunye is perfectly correct. There was a
time in the history of this particular region when Western Sahara
was declared as such. Since then, it is the International Court of
Justice that ruled that that was wrong. It also said there were no
ties between Morocco and the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic or
Mauritania. Incidentally, we do know that Morocco has designs not
just on Mauritania but also on other neighbouring African countries.
There are also UN General Assembly resolutions, the most important
one being that the UN has never recognised Morocco as the
administering power of this territory. Both countries – the Sahrawi
Arab Democratic Republic and the Kingdom of Morocco – signed a
settlement plan in 1991. It was signed by Polisario and the Kingdom
of Morocco. In that settlement, Polisario agreed to a ceasefire, and
the Kingdom of Morocco agreed to the proposed referendum. The
Kingdom of Morocco has gone back, has reneged, on its agreement in
this settlement. So, there is a lot that can be said about this
particular matter.
I do know, and the hon Makue will be aware of this, that the
portfolio committee in the National Assembly is preparing a panel
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discussion on this particular matter in the next week or two. I
would invite hon members to attend because much more will come out
of that. I will also be tabling documents from former Mozambican
President Chissano who is the AU special envoy to this particular
matter, as well as from lawyers from Cornell University.
Chairperson, thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister: You
placed conditions on the readmission of Morocco based on principles,
something we actually do believe is right. Your government, in this
case, is concerned with the sovereignty of a country and the
occupation thereof by another.
However, why do you not show similar principles when dealing with
leaders from African states who have committed crimes against
humanity?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chair, politically, the situation was not the same,
and you cannot consider it to be the same. South Africa, as a former
colony, is radically opposed to any form of colonisation.
The Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is effectively a colony of the
Kingdom of Morocco – illegally so. So, you cannot compare what is
happening in Western Sahara with any part of Africa.
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Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister: I
just want to say I do support the position of South Africa of
standing with the people who have this quest for their selfdetermination. It is a quite commendable move, but I am worried
about the inconsistencies. In the case of the Sahrawi Arab
Democratic Republic, South Africa is standing with the people of
Sahrawi for their self-determination. In the case of Taiwan, South
Africa is not standing with the people of Taiwan for their selfdetermination. These are two areas with the same objective. South
Africa seems to be inconsistent in supporting Sahrawi on this side
but, on the other side, not supporting the people of Taiwan for
their self-determination.
Can you clarify how it happens that there is this support for selfdetermination but, on the other hand, it is not supported? Thank
you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chairperson, firstly, if the hon Khawula will recall
our history and the history of China, it was former President Nelson
Mandela who, before the international media, made the following
statement: South Africa agrees with the One China Policy. It is an
important thing to remember because it will arise in another
question that is on your Order Paper.
07 MARCH 2017
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Secondly, the other important thing to remember is that, like other
liberation movements throughout the world, the Polisario Front
supported our liberation movements during those very difficult times
of apartheid. Unlike others, we never forget. So, the Polisario
Front is now engaged in a struggle, and we will support them in
their struggle. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me remind members that a
follow-up question should, at all times, be linked to the original
question. That is very important. We now come to Question 56, asked
by hon Labuschagne. Hon Deputy Minister. If I had the equipment, I
could jam all the cellphones. [Laughter.]
New DG of WHO
56.
Ms C Labuschagne (Western Cape: DA) asked the Minister of
International Relations and Cooperation:
Who will South Africa be supporting for the role of the new
Director-General of the World Health Organisation?
CO64E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chairperson, I apologise. The reply to the question is
as follows. Firstly, South Africa will support the candidature of Dr
Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus of Ethiopia who was endorsed by the
Executive Council of the African Union. Thank you.
07 MARCH 2017
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister:
Yes, you actually answered this in a previous question and stated
this candidate has the wholehearted support of the South African
group based in the African Union. Then, later on in hon Vawda‘s
follow-up question that asked whether the Minister wasn‘t sort of an
embarrassment by pre-empting this question, you said it doesn‘t mean
that the other countries or other African countries cannot vote for
their own candidate.
My question now is the following: Do we then come to the conclusion
that the unity in the African Union is not really that strong, and
that we are playing around with our relationships with other African
countries? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chairperson, my response to the hon Labuschagne is
that, if she had been listening very carefully, my earlier response
pointed out that other member states who are part of the World
Health Organisation but not necessarily African were free to support
the other three candidates who come from Europe.
So, if Britain wishes to support the French candidate, it is free to
do so. As South Africa, of course, we will be encouraging Britain to
support the African continent. We will also be encouraging the
United States to support the African continent. So, it has nothing
to do – I think you completely misunderstood what I was trying to
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say earlier. I was not saying that we are moving away from the unity
within the AU but rather, in response to the follow-up question,
which was to say we jumped the gun. Thank you.
Department’s role in foreign engagements
45.
Mr E R Makue (Gauteng: ANC) asked the Minister of International
Relations and Cooperation:
(1)
What is the role of her department in foreign engagements
between the three spheres of government and international
(a) entities or (b) governments;
(2)
whether the visit of the Mayor of Tshwane to Taiwan is in
line with South Africa‘s foreign policy; if not, what is
the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant
details?
CO53E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Hon Chairperson, the reply is rather lengthy and, with
hon Makue‘s permission, yours and that of the honourable House, I
will table the reply as contained in the document before me and I
will speak to the salient points.
Firstly, Cabinet has an approved document called Measures and
Guidelines for the Enhanced Co-ordination of South Africa‘s
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International Engagements. The Department of International Relations
and Co-operation should therefore be the entry point on all matters
relating to international relations when it comes to national,
provincial and local governments as well as other institutions of
state. This document should be read in conjunction with the
strengthening of economic diplomacy and the challenges of coordinating the marketing of South Africa abroad.
Now, two meetings of a consultative forum on international relations
are hosted by the Director-General of the Department of
International Relations and Co-Operation every year, and this
provides a platform for information sharing and enhancement of coordination between the three spheres of government. Furthermore, the
two Deputy Ministers in the Minister‘s office embarked upon
provincial visits with a view to promoting better co-ordination and
coherence in the implementation of South Africa‘s foreign policy.
There is a second question from the hon Makue. The reply to that one
is as follows: South Africa‘s foreign policy position towards Taiwan
is that Taiwan is viewed as a province of China. South Africa and
Taiwan continue with their informal relations through what is called
liaison offices located in their respective capitals. No political
visits and engagements to and from Taiwan should take place and
relations between the two countries are mainly economic, social,
cultural, scientific, trade and investment.
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South Africa‘s economic engagement with Taiwan is conducted within a
structured mechanism called The Dialogue Forum which is chaired by
the Department of International Relations and Co-Operation at chief
director level. National, provincial and local government
departments should liaise with the Department of International
Relations and Co-Operation prior to undertaking international visits
for co-ordination and guidance practices.
However, there was no due consultation with the Department of
International Relations and Co-Operation from the Mayor of Tshwane‘s
office prior to Mayor Msimanga‘s visit to Taipei in December 2016.
Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, let me also thank the Deputy Minister for
making the lengthier document available for proper study.
Let me pose a follow-up question to the second question, which is
about the Mayor of Tshwane‘s visit to Taiwan. Deputy Minister, would
it be correct to say that the international relations approach that
we have is the one that says we are trying to make as many friends
as possible for South Africa, and that we have also made use of the
expertise of former servants of this democratic state like, for
example, Deputy Minister Aziz Pahad as well as Minister Zola
Skweyiya, so that we make sure that, in our international
engagements, we always put South Africa first? Thank you.
07 MARCH 2017
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chairperson, the hon Makue is perfectly correct. I
want to take the matter a little further and refer hon members to
chapter three of our Constitution, at section 41, which compels us
to co-operate with one another. The section speaks about cooperative government and intergovernmental relations so that all
spheres of government should preserve the peace, national unity and
the indivisibility of the Republic. So, when we undertake these
visits without the necessary co-ordination of the Department of
International Relations and Co-Operation who is responsible for this
mandate, it creates all manner of problems and we are bound to lose
the friends that the hon Makue refers to. Thank you.
Ms B A ENGELBRECHT: Chairperson, I find this discussion regarding
the Mayor of Tshwane very interesting, especially considering the
scenario in 2014, when Minister Rob Davies visited Taiwan and there
was absolutely no scene made about it and no discussion regarding
his visit. Yet, when the Mayor of Tshwane goes to visit Taiwan to
stimulate investment and jobs because that is what he believes in,
and believes that party politics should be transcended by a need to
create investment ...
I think it‘s a huge tragedy when this government goes against a
mayor who is intent on developing investment and stimulating jobs
and ...
07 MARCH 2017
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So, my question is, how can the ANC government lambaste the Mayor of
Tshwane – thank you so much - who is going out to create jobs, and
yet be hypocritical by not saying a word when Minister Rob Davies
went there in 2014?
We live in a country which has to develop and create jobs because
there are 20 million people who are unemployed. Yet, we are
hypocritical in our statements against the Mayor of Tshwane. I would
appreciate a reply to that question, please.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chairperson, to the hon member, there is nothing
hypocritical about it. My colleague sitting next to me and the hon
Deputy Minister sitting immediately behind me will confirm this. Any
international visit undertaken by either a Minister or a Deputy
Minister has to obtain the approval of the head of state. In all
such visits, we write a formal letter to our President informing him
of our intentions and he either disapproves or approves such a
visit.
Therefore, in the case of the hon Minister Davies, such permission
would have been sought and granted. We also don‘t know what the
purpose of Minister Davies‘ visit was. I am certainly not aware. I
gather my colleague here is probably aware. [Interjections.]
[Laughter.]
07 MARCH 2017
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But, you see, the difference between the hon Minister Davies and the
hon Mayor Msimanga is that Minister Davies obtained permission from
his boss, the President. Mayor Msimanga got permission from nobody,
not even ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): ... not even from hon Maimane.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon Faber?
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, perhaps they should also look at Sol
Plaatje Municipality in Kimberley where they also visit countries
without anything. But, I will not go into that; let me stay with my
question.
How does your government‘s foreign policy tie in with the fact that
Taipei, Kaohsiung and Tainan remain sister cities to the biggest
cities in South Africa and their liaison offices are funded by the
South African government?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Well, Chairperson, I think the answer to the hon
member Faber‘s question lies in my initial reply, which is that
Taiwan has a liaison office and therefore it is through that
07 MARCH 2017
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particular mechanism that these three cities have what is contained
in the hon member‘s question.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: So, hon Chair, a conclusion can be made that this
Msimanga fellow has breached the Constitution. Deputy Minister, is
it not high time that we regulate this environment once and for all
so that we deal with the over-ambition of the shadow Ministers and
shadow everything of the DA? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order, members!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Now, I am going to appeal to hon members of the ANC to
be a little circumspect because, you know, when it comes down to
both provincial and local government, many of our own colleagues at
those spheres of government are also guilty. So ... [Interjections.]
No, no, no, wait! Hear me out, please! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Order, members! Let‘s hear
the Deputy Minister out.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr
L T Landers): Chairperson and hon members, one of the biggest
challenges we face is complaints from countries that have good
relations with South Africa. You have a portfolio committee, you
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have a committee of the provincial legislature and you have a
delegation from a local metro, all converging on one country, on one
city in the same week. Now, that is why hon Minister NkoanaMashabane has tasked both me and Deputy Minister Mfeketho with the
job of engaging with provinces and the senior mayors in those
provinces so that we get an understanding of how we go about these
things. The difficulty lies in the fact that all these delegations
go to these countries to study the exact same thing.
I am using this opportunity to appeal to all hon members in this
House: We all belong to provinces, we all belong to local
authorities and somehow, in our engagements at those levels, let‘s
try and put across to them the importance of the co-ordination that
we are appealing for. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me remind members that,
at most, we can have four follow-up questions, and that one of
Mthimunye‘s questions was the fourth one. [Interjections.]
No, it was the fourth one. The first one was Makue, the second one
was from Engelbrecht, then Mthimunye and Faber. So there were four
follow-up questions.
Let me take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister of
International Relations and Co-operation. [Interjections.] Yes, hon
Julius?
07 MARCH 2017
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Mr J W W JULIUS: House Chair, the question by the hon Mthimunye from
the ANC – whether it is constitutional – was not answered.
[Inaudible.] ... what the Constitution says about how are we going
to get it right to stop them.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, that is not even
a point of order. Don‘t even get into that space. Thank you, hon
Deputy Minister. [Applause.]
Violence/destruction of property: contingency plans
46.
Ms
T
Wana
(Eastern
Cape:
ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
State
Security:
Whether any contingency plans are in place from the security
cluster
to
associated
pre-empt
with
the
violence
―#Fees
and
must
destruction
of
Fall‖-campaign
in
property
the
academic year; if not, why not; if so, what plans?
2017
CO54E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson of the session, our
Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Ministers for the Department if
International Relations and Co-operation, Dirco, and State Security,
Comrade L L Molekane, the hon members of this august House, the
NCOP, the ANC government considers education as one of its apex
priorities and it has done a lot to improve both access and quality
of education. No government in this country has allocated resources
07 MARCH 2017
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as much as we have done. Government has provided a comprehensive
response to genuine concerns of academic exclusion on the basis of
affordability. His Excellency President Zuma outlined this approach
and measure that has been put in place to ensure that no deserving
and qualifying student will be excluded as per ANC policy.
The Security Cluster believes that there should be no basis for any
violent protest in the institutions of higher learning and that all
stakeholders will continue on the engagement that is necessary to
ensure the achievement of long term goals associated with free
quality higher education for the poor, including the work that is
looking at the modalities of implementing the ANC policy on higher
education.
As the ANC-led government we will continue to do more progressively
to attain the ideal providing of a free and quality education to the
poor. As a Security Cluster, we continue to participate on an
interministerial committee established by the President, led by the
Minister in the Presidency, hon Radebe, on the stabilisation of
higher education. The interministerial committee, IMC, is working
closely with other stakeholders in this sector and plans are indeed
in place for any eventuality. I thank you.
Ms T WANA: Let me thank the Minister for giving me this reply. Thank
you very much.
07 MARCH 2017
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Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Wana has asked a very important
question. I just want to find out from the hon Minister: It seems
the country is, especially the security forces of the country, very
reactionary. Now, hon Wana wanted to find out if we are able to preempt. It has happened in a number of instances in 2016 where schools
were burnt in Vuwani. We were reactionary. The security agents of
the country were not able to detect that a disaster was about to
happen. With Fees Must Fall, we again were very reactionary. Now,
how does it work, hon Minister? Are we actually ...
Siphephile yini kodwa bandla uma kuhamba kanje? [Are we really safe,
with all these challenges?]
Every time our security agents are following the instances after
they have happened, even instances that you can refer to as a
crisis. We go after they have happened. We don‘t have instances
where we stop them before they happen. Are we really safe in the
country?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: We need to find time and space that
those of us who are given the responsibility to lead should tell no
lies, claim no easy victories and not mask any difficulties. In most
instances, our country is faced with a number of challenges. Those
of us in leadership, when it suits us, we want to apportion blame.
In many instances the blame is apportioned to the Security Cluster.
Some people even use a narrative called ‗securitisation‘ while in
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reality we are dealing with an issue around how governance and
leadership is happening in various areas.
Before problems become a security issue, there is leadership failure
at a particular level or the inability of citizens to understand
that no matter how difficult our challenges are, let us place them
on the table and discuss them. In most instances, when we fail to
provide leadership and have no kind of patience to engage with each
other, normally people resort to actual demonstration. When they
demonstrate, they start to use violence.
The next thing we have leaders who start to say: Where are the
police; and where was the intelligence? This is a problem that we
don‘t want to confront - that we are like a security state - when we
are actually not building that there should be peace and friendship.
Always when there is conflict, let‘s discuss it.
The other issue is our ability to tell the truth. When you pick up
intelligence - that so and so is going to do one, two and three –
what do you do? We chose a path of a constitutional democracy. If
someone has not committed crime, why should you be harassing them?
That is not how we work. When there is a problem, we pass the
information to others. We don‘t actually arrest people.
We pass information to other agencies - firstly, to those who are
supposed to solve the problem - who are leaders. They don‘t rise to
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the responsibility of leadership. People run away. When they run
away, what do people do? People get into the street. There is a
challenge, like we have always seen, even difficult times.
Sometimes you will have law enforcement officers that are from that
particular community. Because of the level of intimidation and so
forth, you will find that law enforcement agencies don‘t act on the
information of intelligence. Normally, you end up actually having to
bring law enforcement agencies from other areas which are not part
of that community. Then, we are not addressing those issues.
Therefore, when we speak to our people, let‘s tell them what
challenges we are dealing with. All the time, there is always
intelligence information. But, should we be harassing people? That
is not the democracy and the path we chose. When our police officers
are from the locals there, there are scared of their locals or they
actually have empathy with the plight of those particular people.
That is the difficulty of some of the issues we need to deal with.
Hence, this is why you talk about rotation. But, how can you rotate
police officials when they are actually earning peanuts to go to
stay in other areas? I have had this discussion and I think we
needed to set the record straight. I thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Minister, would you not agree that perhaps part
of the security risk and the problem is the fact that the State
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President has not yet on his side actually made a big enough effort
to engage these students. I am not talking about a quick ten-minute
speech and then leaving your Minister of Higher Education to answer
the uncomfortable questions. I am not talking about a meeting at the
Union Buildings with a very small group of selected student leaders.
I am actually talking about seriously engaging and showing some
leadership. Is that not part of the reason why we sit with this
security risk? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair of the session, I think we
are also missing the point. Those of us who lead, our ability must
be able to go to what we are dealing with. The question of
leadership is not about His Excellency President Zuma. All of us are
leaders in our own rights. Before the problem actually becomes a
problem that the President must actually intervene, Higher Education
is an institution on its own. Those universities have Vice
Chancellors. Those institutions have councils and they have senates
that have a responsibility to engage students.
One of the things that we actually normally do is that we like to
politicise them for the fun of politicisation. Who makes decisions
about fees? These decisions are made by universities themselves. You
gave them the autonomy to make these decisions. In most of the
instances - fortunately I was a member of council for more than 11
years, I also led students - university leadership does not engage
07 MARCH 2017
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on the matters of fees. Then, they make as if it is a problem of
government.
As a society, we don‘t acknowledge that there is an issue here about
a leadership failure in universities. When universities choose not
to transform, we don‘t want to hold them accountable. We want to
hold government accountable. Because the ANC-led government cares,
through the Minister of Higher Education and now supported by the
interministerial committee – as a government for the whole of South
Africa - we are in the space, assisting them. Hence, the legislative
instrument that the President signed into law early this year is
trying to address some of these issues.
It will be incorrect and disingenuous to try to blame a President
who has prioritised education, through the ANC, as an apex priority
because he understood through his own personal experience that for
any nation to prosper, education is the way to go. The work the
President has done is dedicated to us. To those of us who have this
responsibility, we dare not fail our children. To those whom we pay
through the taxpayers‘ money which gets given to universities, they
too should play their part to lead. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Thank you,
Chairperson.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Ke maikarabelo a puso go netefatsa gore thuto ke ya
mahala mo bantshong le... [It is the government‘s responsibility to
ensure that black people get free education...]
07 MARCH 2017
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... the community that is in need. Minister, you must make sure that
education is free for all. Nevertheless, it was not the question
that was in me. My question, hon Minister, is that you once invited
the leader of Fees Must Fall movement, Mr Dlamini, into your house.
What was your intention in that? Were you trying to prevent and make
sure that the institutions are secured, or did you have your own
intentions in terms of inviting Mr Dlamini into your house?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: On your passing remark around
education, in terms of free education: Let‘s admit that the ANC has
been a pioneer; and it has chosen the path to respond to a national
question. Our policies are not ambiguous and we are progressively
going there to realise our policy objective, despite the destructors
and the noise that they are trying to make around this particular
issue.
South Africans - even some of us who are here today as leaders in
this country - are beneficiaries of the ANC policy. We went through
this. Our parents could not afford, and they have given us that
particular opportunity. [Interjections.] Secondly, on the matter
that is being raised, one of the issues ... [Interjections.]
Chair, you have an hon member who wants to be listened to when she
asks a question. This appetite of not being able to be able to be
agitated, it doesn‘t help. Well, the issue around a student leader
07 MARCH 2017
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called Mncebo is a matter that the EFF chose deliberately to mislead
the society. [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: How do you know?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chair, I am not going to go to the
merits of the matter but the truth will come out. Where people
deliberately - because of their own political leverage which they
want to achieve - chose to use ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Did or did not? Did or did not? That is the
question!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! Hon Mokwele,
order! Hon members, if you ask a question, let‘s allow the hon
Minister to respond to the question. If we are going to be
disturbing the process, then there is going to be a problem. Can you
take your seat, hon Mokwele? [Interjections.] No, let me preside!
Hon Mokwele, why are you ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: O tla tlwaela! [Interjections.] [You will get used
to.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele!
Ms T J MOKWELE: Yes!
07 MARCH 2017
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, I will invite
you to make whatever that you want to make. Let‘s allow the Minister
to conclude.
Ms T J MOKWELE: But he must not ... [Interjections.] He must reply
to me as a member of this House; not EFF! Reply to me, not ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, let‘s allow the
Minister to respond.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, if you tell the truth,
there are those whose system will want to continue a narrative that
will not assist. I am saying on record for the House, for a
particular reason that is political: Someone chose - when I
responded to the National Assembly and in a particular platform - to
cut a certain clip and managed to hide the information from South
Africans.
However, based on the process they have chosen in our democratic
dispensation, we are dealing with the matter through the Public
Protector. Nothing to hide! The National Assembly is also dealing
with the matter in terms of the complaint they have made. Because it
is a political matter – it‘s not even an ethics matter – they will
be exposed, for the short legs they have!
07 MARCH 2017
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The last issue, when it comes to Mr Dlamini: I wish you good luck.
You have tried to recruit him. He is a member of the ANC, ...
[Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: You don‘t have to lie! You dumped him!
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: ... And, he is not actually going to
come to you. I thank you Chair. [Applause.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: You dumped him! ... [Inaudible.] ... You know we are
going to expose you. You know very well!
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, thank you. I would also like to thank ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! Hon members!
Sorry, Mr Hattingh. Hon members, we can‘t do what you are doing. Can
you continue, hon Hattingh.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, I would like to thank the Minister for
coming out strongly for the truth, and putting such an emphasis on
it. I see that in the context of his specific opinion about fake
news and scams which hit the headlines the past few days, there
obviously also were some other threats which I will not go into.
Then, in the context of the student unrest, there are also
utterances linked to the hon Minister about unnamed foreign
07 MARCH 2017
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intelligence agencies working with negative domestic forces to
undermine the state and achieve regime change.
I would like also just to put in context something that was said 23
years ago on the same premises, also by a President who was then
under pressure. He said:
The tragedy is that hostile pressure and agitation from abroad has
acted as an encouragement to militant revolutionaries in South
Africa ...
On that context, and this is the Minister‘s playing grounds,
―Security!‖ I would like to know whether he believes in the context
of his own words that these unnamed foreign agencies are playing a
role in our student unrest. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Probably, if we need a debate, we
need to, rather than to infer. When we speak, it sometimes probably
depends where we come from. Unfortunately, I was not there 23 years
ago. I was working for the organisation in other capacities; I don‘t
remember that speech of 23 years ago. [Interjections.] Well, I
don‘t. Unfortunately, he is not my uncle. I don‘t know him.
[Laughter.] Maybe I would if we had a discussion at home with him or
with relatives. Let me not respond to issues of a government that
was not representing us.
07 MARCH 2017
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Let‘s reply to your question because there are those people who
think that when we speak, we speak from a position of not being
informed. We responded and we are unapologetic. In this ANC-led
government, when we stopped to be a pariah state, we chose a path
around our international policy: There will be peace; there will be
friendship.
We clearly understood the role of multilateralism that must work.
That is why we are part of this institution: Whether it is SADC;
whether it is AU; and whether it is the United Nations or the other
bodies we join. Those of us who actually have an ideological nexus,
like the ANC, we do the balance of forces: The world we live in.
When we have done the balance of forces, we understand that the
world as it looks today is more unstable like yesterday. There are a
number of challenges. One of the issues is that the institutions of
multilateralism are actually being undermined; whilst there are a
number of institutions and countries that practice unilateralism.
That is why we call for the reform of the UN Security Council,
including the Bretten Woods institutions. We are unapologetic
because we have an ideological perspective.
We have also seen here that countries, in terms of international
relations, who are supposed to be trading as equals but there are
those countries in terms of their national interest and national
security, want to exert influence on other countries in one way or
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the other. Certain countries are very mature; they respect the winwin. However, others are not apologetic, they do use state and
nonstate actors.
You have seen regime change happening in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.
Who actually did that? Does it mean that it is not going to happen
in South Africa? It will! The rise of terrorism: Where people are
actually using caliphate, taking land, selling oil and other issues.
Where do they get these best weapons? If regime change were to
happen though, in South Africa we will not allow it to happen
unconstitutionally.
As the Freedom Charter has said, we have chosen universal suffrage.
No government can claim authority unless it is based on the will of
the people by the people. [Applause.] And, you can‘t replace
government outside the constitutional means. It has happened where
unconstitutional means are being made. For it to happen, you will
have to have collaborators.
There are South Africans – and I am on record – that collaborate
either wittingly or unwittingly. To those South Africans who are
collaborating unknowingly, we must be able to raise these issues: So
that they too don‘t become part of subversion; they don‘t become
part of espionage; and don‘t actually become part of those who are
undermining our national security.
07 MARCH 2017
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Those who are raising noise, what are you fearing when we are
raising this issue? For this thing to happen, you must be able to
agitate people on issues that resonate with our people. Education is
one of those issues. It is a genuine issue and the matter that
should be uniting us as South Africans. We make it a political
football, and there are other issues that we loose.
When you have time, join in the ANC when they start to discuss
policy documents. We will engage. We are an organisation that knows
what is the balance of forces and which are the motive forces who
are supporting our revolution towards the national democratic
society.
Our duty is to ensure that we build this united South Africa that we
envisaged in 1912, and reconfirmed in 1955. We reconfirmed it
through the Harare Declaration and Vision 2030 in our own
Constitution. There are no threats that we are not going to be able
to raise so that our people understand. To try to equate the ANC-led
government with the government of the then National Party, Nats, is
very cheap.
You try to hide the issues that we are dealing with today. We are
going to proceed on our path to that national democratic society.
Our road is not going to be easy. It is going to be arduous. There
will be those who are opposed to the change and South Africans must
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know them so that they are prepared when we move through this
journey. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Thank you, Chairperson.] [Applause.]
Investigation of SABC senior managers
52.
Mr J W W Julius (Gauteng: DA) asked the Minister of State
Security:
Whether the SA Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) has ordered the
State Security Agency to investigate senior managers at the
SABC in 2015 (details furnished); if not, what is the position
in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO60E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, the matter raised
by the hon member, as he is aware, is currently the subject of a
parliamentary ad hoc committee on the suitability of the SABC Board.
As such, it will be inappropriate for me to go into the merits of
this matter before this august House. As we speak now, the NA is
deliberating on the matter and any issue that is referred to us
there, will have to be able to have an opportunity to deal with that
particular matter.
We have no apology, Chair, we‘ll continue to do our work without any
fear or favour to secure the state entities including the SABC; but
until we receive the report and the insinuation that have been made
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will be able then to respond in full what is our course of the next
action. Than you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, without
suppressing anything in this question because I understood the
response to be saying the report has been tabled in Parliament; it
means it will give us an opportunity to be able to do justice to
this question. But, be that as it may, I‘ll give you hon Julius; I
don‘t know what will ...
Mr J W W JULIUS: Yes, Chairperson, I note that questions are not
answered properly today by all Ministers, maybe it has to do with
the President‘s advice yesterday that Ministers should not answer
questions.
We are going to an apartheid state now; we‘re back, I have to tell
you Minister; we‘re going back to that apartheid style of saying
these matters are not for here, these matters are not for that;
whilst, Deputy Chair, just give me the opportunity to finish ... you
can‘t see me with the hand chief. You know what ... [Interjection.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr. A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, let me assist
... [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: The State Security Agency is not implicated there.
When they‘re called they can do that. But now, my question stands,
07 MARCH 2017
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are you implicated in the report as yet, no; and if you‘re not, you
have to answer my question. Only if you‘re implicated then you can
say that there‘s ... or do you think you will be called, you feel so
guilty that you will be called? It‘s just a matter of ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, let me assist
you. The other House of Parliament called the NA established an ad
hoc committee to deal with what was happening at SABC. As we‘re
sitting here today, there‘s a committee that is being presented
there. When the Minister was responding to this question he said it
will be not appropriate to get to the details of it without getting
to the report ... [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: But he‘s not implicated there ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr. A J Nyambi): I thought ...
[Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: He‘s not implicated there; I don‘t understand
what‘s the argument ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): We don‘t have that ... okay;
can you ask your follow–up question?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Yes, yes, I‘ll ask my follow-up question.
07 MARCH 2017
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I‘m dealing with hon Julius.
Mr J W W JULIUS: I want to know whether the State Security Agency
... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): On a point of order on who?
Hon Julius, sorry. Hon Labuschagne is raising a point of order.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I‘m very confused. Are you the Deputy
Minister or are you the Chair? Because we can make a rule from the
chair but you cannot answer a question ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I‘m making a ruling ...
[Interjections.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: But you answered the question, you told ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, I‘m making a ruling ...
[Interjections.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chair, you didn‘t make a ruling, you gave the
hon member an answer. That is unparliamentary ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me repeat my ruling. Let
make ... [Interjections.]
07 MARCH 2017
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: You told the member about a committee, you
answered a question. Can you please take that ruling back ... Can
you please make a ruling and not answer the question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me make my ruling. Let me
repeat my ruling. Hon Julius, hon members, the ruling is that the
other House is getting to the details of the report of the ad hoc
committee that was established by the other House. For us to able to
do justice to this question, it will be appropriate for us to have a
second bite at a later stage after going through the report. That is
my ruling.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: On a point of order, Chair. If that is so Chair,
why did the secretary of this House two weeks ago allow this
question on this Order Paper? Get your house in order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Labuschagne, order
members, it‘s not a problem I‘ll deal with it. Hon members, I‘m not
going to subject myself to why this, never done that. I‘ve made a
ruling and if ever you have a problem with the ruling that I‘ve made
there‘s an appropriate way of addressing the ruling. Let‘s now go
question number ... [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: I‘m not against your ruling. I‘m not against your
ruling. You made two rulings. You just made two rulings. Afterwards
you said okay go ahead ask your follow-up question. I was busy
07 MARCH 2017
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asking my follow-up question and now you‘re making a new ruling.
You‘re clearly protecting the Minister from answering the question.
The Minister is not implicated at the other House. Ask the Minister,
was he called to the other House, no. He will use that excuse when
he‘s called to that House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, the first thing,
you‘re not even recognised.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Why are you protecting the Minister? You are just
like the apartheid government.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Can you take your seat? Can you
take your seat? Hon Minister, let‘s come to Question 47 asked by hon
Mhlanga.
Mr F ESSACK: Chairperson, with due respect and for the decorum of
the House, you asked the hon member to stand up and give his followup question. You politely, now, shut him down and come with another
ruling. For the sake of democracy and transparency allow him to ask
his follow-up question. That is all. After all, we are all
representing South Africans here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Essack, you ask a followup question on a response. Can you take your seat?
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Can you continue hon Minister; we‘re dealing with Question 47.
Vuwani uprisings
47.
Mr M T Mhlanga (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of State
Security:
What lessons were learnt from the recent Vuwani uprisings which
left more than 20 schools torched and other public amenities
destroyed,
with
specific
coordinated
intelligence
reference
gathering
and
to
integrated
response
across
security cluster?
and
the
CO55E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson of the session ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am sorry, hon Minister, let
me take a point of order.
Mr F ESSAK: Chairperson, with due respect and for the decorum of the
House, you asked the hon member to stand up and give his follow up
question. Now, you politely shut him down and come up with another
ruling. For the sake of democracy and transparency allow him to ask
his follow up question. After all, we are all representing South
Africa here.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Essack, hon Essack, you
ask a follow up question based on a response. Can you take your
seat; can you take your seat! Continue, hon Minister. We are dealing
with Question 47.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon House Chairperson of the
session, Question 47 that has been asked by the hon member, Comrade
Mhlanga, a number of lessons can be drawn from the unfortunate
incident at Vuwani. Firstly, the management of the demarcation
process and demarcation related issues in our country remains part
of the emotive issues since we started and it can become a security
issue if not handled properly; secondly, the capacity of relevant
authorities and leaders despite challenges the ability to
continuously engage with affected parties and don‘t tire to engage;
thirdly, the right to protest as enshrined in our Constitution,
which is one of the hard fought rights and liberties, can be
undermined by the conduct of other people; fourthly, is the failure
by authorities to act on early warning information by intelligence
to be able to deal with the situation; fifthly, lack of adequate
consequences for those involved in the destruction of property and
disrupting the right to learn of other citizens; and sixthly, other
teething points on demarcation that are security services must
remain seized with in terms of going forward because there are other
issues that are still there around demarcation.
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Our role as intelligence services is to collect and pass on
intelligence to our colleagues whether in security cluster or in
leadership and we expect it to be acted upon. We don‘t therefore
announce or declare in public the work that we have done as others
have chosen not understand the value chain and say where
intelligence was. In a democratic dispensation such as ours, we
operate within the provision of legislation and cannot act willingly
on the basis of intelligence we have collected. Therefore, it is
important to underscore the fact that security agencies did their
best to ensure that successful elections happened in Vuwani. The
right of universal suffrage was practiced by those communities in as
much as the voter turn out was low. Equally, those who were brought
to book it was intelligence-driven operations. I thank you, House
Chairperson.
Mr M T MHLANGA: House Chairperson, let us welcome the response from
the hon Minister. I would like to know whether the State Security
institution have enough human capacity to combat such? What are the
measures put in place with regard to foreigners who are found
fuelling such activities to take place? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson and hon Mhlanga,
thank you for the follow up. In respect of the capacity of the
security forces, it is always a difficult matter to respond. From an
intelligence state craft I would not be able to do that because our
enemies would be able to measure our strength. That is how the trade
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craft works unless you are not from it. That is why we don‘t even
disclose our budget. There are those of us in leadership who don‘t
understand what national security means. Immediately you disclose
your work force and your budget your detractors and the enemies of
your state will have the ability to do that.
The last part is the involvement of foreigners. Those of us in
leadership and in terms of our ideological outlook must always send
a message to South Africa that these borders were not made by us.
They were made by colonisers. We don‘t want to see any person
through an eye whether you are a national or foreign national as
long as you commit crime within the territorial integrity called
South Africa irrespective of your nationality, belief, gender and so
forth crime is crime and must be dealt as such without any fear,
favour or prejudice. South Africans have always understood that we
are not xenophobic because even if you look at the Southern Africa
we are one people, we share everything, we share borders, we share
families, we share culture, traditions and values including those
have been working here in our country for centuries. Therefore, we
don‘t use the question of foreigner sentiment and so forth. The only
thing that we do we keep an eye. As long as you start to use certain
agencies or structures like state and nonstate actions, you become
part of our radar. If you do funny things and undermine our
sovereignty and territorial integrity and want to harm our people in
terms of national interests and national security, we place you
under the radar. Thank you. [Applause.]
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Mr L V MAGWEBU: Thank you very much, Minister, for your response. Be
that as it may, but I am worried about your response. In your
response you mentioned the lessons learned from the Vuwani
uprisings. In lesson number four, this is what you‘ve just said a
minute ago, and I quote, ―... failure by authorities to act on
information from intelligence‖.
Here is my question. If you admit from this House that there has
been a failure by the authorities to act on the information from
your desk as the Minister of Intelligence, that failure has cost
this country and there has to be consequences. I want to know: what
have you done to ensure that those who have failed to act on the
information you have given them? what action has been taken as an
against them to hold them accountable? If so; why? Have you raised
that information? Have you named and shamed those authorities and
reported them to say I have shared this information nevertheless
they have never acted on it? That is my question. What has been done
by that failure you have admitted? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson of the session, well we
should not choose an easy path. When the main thrust of the question
was asked it was asked in an essence to say what we have learnt. I m
not here on a blame game and take glory that we have done our part
and others have failed. We are honestly saying that there are
challenges in our country. As citizens and leaders we have more
added responsibility. We have said that before a matter becomes a
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security matter, it is first a governance issue. We are quite aware
that to you as members of legislature demarcation is a matter that
is not easy. In terms of our indoctrination people believe that if
you move a particular border to another thing they think you are
taking them out of this country. These are some of the issues that
have caused wars. Is this the how we want to lead?
The issue that we are raising there we are saying that the manner on
how we co-ordinate our issues and the manner on how we all of us
respond, whether is it government, communities themselves including
other people that, must be able to assist to deal with the issues.
There has been a failure. What we are also dismissing is this
narrative where we don‘t empower ourselves and understand how each
sector works – from intelligence collection, getting into the value
chain until prosecution. We are trying to communicate the
information of what happens before you get to law enforcement.
Therefore, to try to use and abuse point number four my appeal is
that you need to disabuse yourself of coming to that point. We were
sharing to say collectively when we go out there how do we all of
us, irrespective of our narrow political ideologies and interests,
South Africa is more important than all of us. Therefore, let‘s not
use politics to affect the dream that we have. We want to build this
nation. For building this nation all of us must rise and do what is
right. Thank you, House Chairperson.
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson and hon Minister, I am starting to take
into account your replies. I am starting to wonder the reason why
they have refrained from using the word intelligence rather opted to
call it State Security. But be that as it may the question is: why
does it take 20 schools, 20 schools, Minister, before we learn the
lesson? Why do 20 schools have to be burnt down before we learn
these basic lessons? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, probably the hon member
should be able to trace his steps well when he finds time. I was not
in Cabinet when there was a reconfiguration to name the department
where the President has appointed me to.
To deal with the issue he has raised, we have responded to this
issue. Government has condemned and understood the devastating
impact that the actions of our citizens – because one thing that is
so interesting is to try to apportion blame to government.
Government has responded and has spoken to the citizens to say this
kind of behaviour – irrespective of how genuine the grievance might
be - has taken the government and the people there backwards. That
is why some of us when we were debating the matter in the National
Assembly after we were on the ground working side by side with our
people, were able to respond. Children were saying why elders were
destroying their future.
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The reality why you want to keep us there on the agenda and try to
make it news is because there are those who claim to care for our
people. Ours is to score a political point and I am not going to
assist you to score a political point. We condemn that action. We
have acted and our duty is for South Africans to play their part
that any destruction of property cannot be tolerated. That is why we
are calling for legislators to review some of the legislations so
that we can send a message that certain actions and crimes will
never be tolerated to exist side by side with our communities. Thank
you, House Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Minister, it is amazing listening to hon members
when you tell them about the budget. Some of them can‘t even
disclose their organisations‘ financial statements yet they want you
to disclose your budget as intelligence. According to my
understanding you went at length explaining this. I am not schooled
in your department, but the best securities are the people on the
ground - those residing in the same localities where problems are
experienced. In the integrated and co-ordinated plan that you want
to come up with, are we seeking to make sure that our people who are
located in such localities are also part of the stakeholders so that
we can be able to tap into information that they have and be able to
be responsive on time as intelligence? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chair, we must welcome the
appreciation that for us to be able to discharge the constitutional
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mandate it will never succeed unless our people are involved. That is
why if you have an opportunity read the budget statements we make.
All the time whenever I conclude I always use my mother language and
say, ―nawe uliphoyisa‖ [you are also a policeman]. By this I am
trying to send a message that South Africans it is our responsibility
too to play our part. That is why on issues that affect South
Africans in terms of security, we raise these issues. We go as part
of the security cluster holding izimbizo and we are even working with
the local government system.
Remember, intelligence is also about building risk management systems
for the country, being able to help municipalities, help provinces
and also help various departments so that on the basis of the
information that you collect overtly you can be able to analyse and
be able to develop an early warning system. If there is a service
delivery failure where, let‘s say a tap is not working. If you don‘t
attend to it within 24 hours to 48 hours people will start to be
around. If a councillor does not respond, then they get into the
streets. It is not that there was no intelligence, but it was a
failure of a councillor or the municipality has no money to fix the
pothole on time and then people will get there.
The relationship with our people strengthening all the time and I
believe we have 55 million intelligence officers and we believe we
have 55 million law enforcement officers. They too have a
responsibility to play. We thank them and they must be able to
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continue to report as they volunteer the information. On the basis
of the information we have been able to counter a number of things
that could have been in a position to hurt our country. Thank you.
Threats to state security
61.
Ms N P Koni (Northern Cape: EFF) asked the Minister of State
Security:
(a) How much of a threat to state security would the
infiltration of the SA Police Service and Directorate for
Priority Crime Investigation by criminal elements be (details
furnished) and (b) what specific action is being taken to deal
with such threats to the national security?
CO69E
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chair, the question is better placed
if responded by my colleague in Cabinet. Where the Minister of
Police was here in the first session under the two institutions
referred are under his jurisdiction.
However, it is important to know that government deals on a
continuous basis with the integrity of its officials through,
amongst others, vetting, rotation of personnel and we are
considering as guided by our movement the introduction of lifestyle
audits as well as awareness campaigns conducted from time to time.
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Any conduct by those in the system that is contrary to our laws
rules and regulation is dealt with the through the checks and
balances of which our constitutional framework has created for
oversight and accountability. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Thank you,
Chairperson].
Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, let us get the issue of misplacement of
the question in perspective. The question is that yes, the SAPS have
been infiltrated. The question is what threat is this to the state
security? That is the first part and the second part is where there
is threat to state security; what is the state security doing to
deal with these threats.
As a follow up to that, if we could also add, what exactly is being
done to ensure that this infiltration does not take place in the
first instance? If I could also add ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Vawda, you are doing a
follow up question and not follow up questions.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, like I said, the hon
member knows that if you are going to be broad, you are speaking
about SAPS, you are speaking about the directorate, you could have
asked the Minister of Police and I don‘t want to come and debate.
It‘s a new motion. You want to make it substantive. If you speak
about infiltration, what is it?
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Chair, those of us who are doing infiltration and penetration, we
know its part of our work. That is why I am speaking about integrity
I am responding to your question. That if someone has been
infiltrated it means you are an urgent, you either doing espionage.
You are working for someone else, in other words, you are doing
subversion.
Then what do you do? This government has mechanisms to deal with the
integrity of its officers. But let‘s not try to give credence on an
allegation that is not substantiated to try to create an impression
that our forces are infiltrated. If they can be any attempt to
infiltrate it; we have the capacity to see it; and we will catch
them. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo uyangithusa Ngqongqoshe. Yilokhu
siqalile uyangethusa nje, usungethuse ungiqedile. [Thank you,
Chairperson. The Minister is worrying me. He has been worrying me
ever since we started; he has finished with me.]
Now, let‘s talk infiltration, to what extend are our political
parties infiltrated by you? [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chair, hon Khawula, as a member of
this august House, if hon Khawula, as a person who makes laws and
created through our legislation, the checks and balances. If you
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have evidence that we are infiltrating you in doing our work, please
use the checks and balances.
I‘m told a process, that Parliament concluded the Inspectorate of
Government, IG, which is a very good platform. Then there is a
committee in which some hon members from this House sit in where I
account. You can go to them. But if you don‘t trust those checks and
balances you created, you have the recourse in terms of the
judiciary. Let‘s not try to create a ghost that does not exist.
You know, I laugh at the funny things that people think we listen
to. We use the law, but probably on a lighter note, what are people
scared of? What are you hiding? Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Thank you,
Chairperson].
Collaboration between role players
49.
Mr M J Mohapi (Free State: ANC) asked the Minister of State
Security:
Whether there is any collaboration between the State Security
Agency, other role players in the security cluster and
university security agencies regarding intelligence gathering,
sharing and responding to incidents of violence associated with
the ―#Fees must Fall‖-campaign; if not, why not; if so, what
are the relevant details?
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The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon House Chairperson, once again,
thank you. I also thank hon member - Comrade Mohapi.
[Interjections.] [Laughter.] House Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members, order! Order!
Hon Mokwele. Hon Mokwele, can you take your seat so that I can
address the issue, especially your remark before you stood up.
[Interjections.] Hon Mokwele, as I ... [Interjections.] Hon Mokwele.
[Interjections.] Hon ... Order! Hon members, as I am presiding over
this session, very recently when the Minister was dealing with hon
Vawda, he started by doing the very same thing. [Interjections.]
[Laughter.] Can you continue, hon Minister. Order, members!
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon House Chair, I acknowledge the
member retrospectively but then you should settle the matter but it
is warm in our home. [Interjections.] In terms of section 2
subsection (1) (a) of the National Strategic Intelligence Act 39 of
1994 as amended, the functions of the State Security Agency are to
gather, correlate, evaluate and analyse domestic intelligence in
order to identify any threat or potential threat to the security of
the Republic or its people; supply intelligence regarding any such and we collate it in terms of our National Intelligence Coordinating Committee, Nicoc.
In line with this function, the State Security Agency continuously
monitor violent and disruptive actions as they manifest themselves
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in terms of our National Intelligence Estimates and our national
security assessment - that will include actions of state and
nonstate actors which will result in violent protests, disruption of
property, including disruption of other societal activities,
especially around education. The good thing is that the student
leadership even asked me to talk to them and share information.
There are those people who come to us, during the day they look like
sheep but at night they change. [Interjections.] The last question
that was asked ... the last comment is that we said the involvement
of our people in our work is very important and we do sectoral work
in this case. Our cluster established the National Joint Operational
and Intelligence Structure which is also called Natsjoints to
respond expeditiously to any situation of instability in our
country. We work within that particular body and within the body of
the security cluster. We do not collaborate with security companies
operating at universities, as such companies are contracted by
universities themselves at their own discretion due to the
universities‘ autonomous nature or existence. Our least experience
when we were invited as security services by the leadership of the
universities was that there is a clear mechanism, especially led by
the police, on how to co-ordinate our work. We thank you, House
Chair.
Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon House Chair, through you to Comrade Minister,
thank you very much for the response. Indeed at Wits University
there was a man called Malcolm who allegedly claimed to be from
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State Security Agency, SSA, of which later on the spokesperson from
the SSA denied any knowledge of that particular person. City Press
went further to report that the students will be dealt with harshly
and that there will be targeted arrests. Another point is the use of
the fake social network to propagate misleading information.
Minister, I just want to ask you how do we ensure that co-ordination
that we refer to is being used effectively to prevent abuse,
distortions, rumour-mongering, which always fuel the situation and
deliberately misdirects our energies to something else. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister? No, my earlier
appeal to all of you was that if you do a follow up it must be
linked to the original question. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: No. Thank you. We want to thank the
hon member, Comrade Mabe, on the first issue of the person referred
to. The statement issued by the departmental spokesperson - the
Ministry spokesperson, is reaffirmed. Again, the issues around how
people try to use social media - I am told I don‘t have a twitter
account – it is a big issue out there but the reality is that as
Members of Parliament we are going to have an opportunity later this
year to consider an important matter called Cybersecurity Bill and
Related Matters.
The issue of cyberspace, which is a web information, has
revolutionised the world. It has given us endless opportunities in
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areas of medicine, e-governance, e-education, e-health and so forth
but there are those people in the same space that is borderless and
difficult to regulate that are abusing the particular space. They
have been able to take down governments and issues of hacking, where
elections can be influenced. The issues around economy - you know,
you don‘t have to put boots on the ground, you can attack someone‘s
economy sitting in one capital city and cause untold suffering.
As we speak today, companies are losing millions and millions but
because of their brand name they are scared to tell others that they
have lost money because of hacking, pishing, swapping and
everything. Individuals who are always on their gadgets don‘t want
to tell of their untold sufferings. A number of South African
children have been hoodwinked by ‗blessers‘ who are sexual pests.
They disappeared with people they don‘t know. Older people are
dealing with cases where they are spending money by paying people
they don‘t know - they are ‗blessers‘. The photoshopping that is
happening - where a number of your accounts in the social media have
been hacked and you have other pages.
From a security point of view, we had an incident when the problem
started in Durban, Kwajini, which you call xenophobia but it was a
labour relations matter. People in Primrose were told through social
network, ―We are coming for you, foreigners‖ They became what we
call internationally, the internally displaced persons. They left
their homes and we dealt with that. With regard to social media, you
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should go to a country called Tunis. They never went to elections
and government was taken down. If you go to Egypt and so forth, it
is the same thing. We are going to actually go ahead with the
legislation to regulate the cyberspace because it is used for other
nefarious things.
Human rights are going to be respected but they are not actually
exclusive to national security, they should be mutually dependent,
House Chair. We are going to balance it. There is the so-called
revered democracies, which we look up to. They do regulate the
space. If you go to the West, the US and UK, China and Russia,
Ethiopia or everywhere, it exists. What is unique is that we are
calling that the space to allow for our development. It must allow
us to create friendships, do business and knowledge production but
those who use the space must be protected. Those who are
irresponsible and causing harm must be assisted so that they not to
endanger all of us. You know if you endanger yourself, remember that
we are in one plane. You can‘t behave like a terrorist and let the
plane crash will all of us. We will do whatever it takes; we will
engage with South Africans and find time to engage, but it is not
unique to put a regulation on this space. It is a borderless one and
very unique. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon House Chair, you know it is the fifth year this
day in age. The follow-up by the ANC on such a question is rather on
intelligence and all that ... [Interjections.]
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! Hon members, hon
Mohapi, hon Julius is protected. You are protected, hon Julius.
Mr J W W JULIUS: ... and nothing is mentioned about our poor
students out there. I reiterate that you are nothing better that the
apartheid government, you are just like the apartheid government and
even worse. You are even worse that them. You didn‘t even think the
question is about our poor students and you didn‘t even ask a
follow-up question on that. House Chairperson, allow me to hold the
Minister accountable for real issues - about our poor students out
there because the question is about them and the intelligence in
there. Hon Minister, during and after the FeesMustFall protests,
students were hijacked, threatened with death, shot in the field,
beaten and picked up in the middle of the night at various
universities and at their homes, especially at Wits University and
the University of Johannesburg. It is just like what the apartheid
government did to us. Now, I want to ask you if any members of the
State Security Agency were involved ... [Interjections.] ... If you
want to know, go and read and come and ask me. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! No, hon members!
[Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: I think our records are there for everyone to see.
Just have a look at it, please, especially in State Security, you
have our files, isn‘t it. But I want to know the scope of the state
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- your work in there, regarding the FeesMust Fall protests. You
already said that you were involved. How far were you involved in
detaining the students at night ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Minister ...
Mr J W W JULIUS: ... and beating and shooting at our students at
night? In the middle of the dark night without ... [Interjections.]
... clothes on, like the apartheid government did.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon House Chair, we want to say
thank you. Er ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members!
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, I need to give
you the response.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members! No, Mohapi, you
can‘t do that. [Interjections.] Can you respond, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, thank you. I
think when you gave us the opportunity to come and account, I tried
to make a point that those of us who are bequeathed with the
responsibility to lead must rise to the occasion of leadership.
There are those who are amongst us who choose the easy route. One of
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the things that you do as a member of the legislature is to defend
the rights of the people. He knows that the legislature as an
important component of the state has given us an enabling
environment. If he was exercising his responsibility and if there
are any abuses of human rights, the member has a duty not to
generalise and make certain things appear real. One, he should have
gone to ... if he has information ... because you know sometimes we
think we want to score political points when in reality we are
defeating the end of justice. [Interjections.] When you have
information, House Chairperson, the hon member should have furnished
us with details that student so-and-so at this particular time and
date was picked by so-and-so. If he has information, he must take it
to the law enforcement agencies. I don‘t even want to discuss what
he was doing in Johannesburg. What has he to do with those students‘
issues? I don‘t even to go there.
Secondly, this view of trying to equate apartheid ... some of us
never had people who were opposing apartheid in our own homes. We
never had an experience to see what those who were opposing
apartheid were doing. The only experience we had as youngsters was
in the student movement and youth league is to be arrested and be
dealt with. We have never been an organisation that arose from other
organisation as a party; we are a movement. We originated in terms
of the will of our people. If you want to reminiscence about
apartheid - like apartheid policies that are being implemented in
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the Western Cape, you will understand it better, but that‘s not what
we stand for.
He can make noise but we will not divorce from the fact that if you
look at the connection and certain elements, in terms of that DNA that in cord – it is not in the ANC. We are always on the side of
the people. The member must not try to actually have easy victories.
No government, including the DA government, has ever invested so
much in education. Those young people know that this government has
given them the opportunities. The propaganda, in as much as you can
push, is not going to succeed. There is a testimony and all of us
are a testimony. [[Inter??]]House Chairperson, I need your
protection ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius. Hon Julius.
[Interjections.] Hon Julius. Hon Julius.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: He is insulting me ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Julius, can you withdraw
what you have said? [Interjections.] No, can you withdraw what you
have said? [Interjections.] No, I heard you. Can you withdraw what
you have said? [Interjections.] Can you take a seat, Minister? Hon
Julius, can you withdraw what you have said? [Interjections.] No, I
am giving you the last opportunity, withdraw what you have said.
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Mr J W W JULIUS:
Page 165 of 194
Yes, you are used to sending us out. It is not
your Parliament, it‘s ours. I withdraw, House Chairperson, whatever
I said.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Can you continue, hon
Minister and conclude.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, House Chairperson for
your intervention because in politics we don‘t play the person.
Let‘s discuss issues. Let the battle of ideas flourish. Let the
flowers bloom. Those of us from the organisation of the people - the
ANC, respect opposition but we are not scared to engage on issues.
As I was saying here, our record over the last 22 years bears
testimony that South Africa today is better that yesterday. The
future is bright and we are going to be there.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Faber. Hon Faber. Hon
Faber.
Mr W F FABER: House Chairperson, I understand ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Okay, let me take a point of
order.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Thank you, House Chairperson, I take it you have
heard it. Hon Wana just said to me, ―Shut up!‖
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Who‘s that?
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Wana.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No. Hon members ... Can you
take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: No, I don‘t know. [Interjections.] I saw you
looking at her and looking back. So, I know you heard it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): I am looking at the Minister
who is responding. [Interjections.] I am looking at the Minister who
is responding. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Okay, can you take your
seat so that I can make a ruling. Hon members, I am appealing to all
of you. [Interjections.] No, can you allow me to run the House. Hon
members, I am appealing to all of you, refrain from anything that
will compromise the decorum of the House. We are honourable members.
Hon Faber, can we have your follow-up question?
Mr W F FABER: Thank you, House Chairperson, I would just like to
know if hon Gerard has a point of order. Can I continue, hon
Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): You are protected, hon Faber.
You can continue.
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Mr W F FABER: I would like to know if the Minister can tell us
whether there was any phone tapping or other devices used to listen
in to the workers‘ cellphones and who gave the permission for this.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon members. Hon members, I
leave it entirely up to the Minister to comment because it is an
entirely new question. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: House Chairperson, for us to be able
to account we have to make ourselves available. We will also
respectfully request that we don‘t be compelled to answer general
issues without specifics. If there are issues around wiretapping and
so forth, also in this instance you have not given us details, we do
it within the laws passed. And if there is any incident where the
laws that have been passed have not been respected, let‘s use the
recourse mechanism that is created in the laws. But in this
instance, I am unable to assist hon Faber because there are no
details. Thank you, House Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Let me take this opportunity
to thank the Minister and the Deputy Minister of State Security and
welcome the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs. [Applause.]
Moh T J MOKWELE: Modulasetilo, ke ema ka boikokobetso. Ke a itse
gore Modukasetilo wa Ntlo eno o neelane ka katlholo mabapi le go sa
nneng teng ga Ditona. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
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[Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, I am humbling myself. I know that the
Chairperson of this House has awarded judgement on the issue of
absent Ministers.]
However, my concern is that today, it seems like only the Police and
the State Security Departments managed to send their Ministers and
most of the departments are sending the Deputy Ministers. I think it
is a sign of disrespect to this House and it must be noted as such
when the hon Chair is consulting with the offices of these
Ministries that we are not happy in the manner in which the
Ministers are attending to us. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Mokwele. Quite
correctly so, the hon Chairperson earlier on made a ruling and it
was clear how she is going to be able to take up this issue that you
are raising. Now, let us start with Question 50 asked by hon Faber.
I will invite you hon Deputy Minister.
Validation of police clearance
50.
Mr W F Faber (Northern Cape: DA) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
Whether he has been informed of the Visa Facilitation Service‘s
(VFS) failure to validate police clearance as indicated on the
VFS website; if not, what is the position in this regard; if
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so, (a) how many persons have been affected by this from 1
October
2016
up
to
the
latest
specified
date
for
which
information is available, (b) how will this matter be addressed
and (c) how will the persons awaiting police clearance in order
to travel back to their countries be assisted?
CO58E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Good afternoon Chairperson of
the NCOP, the Chairperson of the session and hon members. Thank you
very much. I just want to notify hon members that our Minister is
currently participating in a debate in the National Assembly, hence
his absence. With regard to the question asked by the biometric
based automated police clearance system has not yet been
implemented. However, the delay cannot be laid solely at the
doorstep of the Visa Facilitation Service, VSF. This initiative is a
collaborative partnership and it entails a technical interface
between the Department of Home Affairs and the Automated Fingerprint
Identification System, Afis, switch as well as VSF and its
implementation has been delayed due to technical challenges
experienced in the roll out of the system.
There is currently the requirement that persons wanting to either
extend visas or apply for visas such as the permanent residence, we
will have to revert to having to submit their police clearances with
the visa applications where required. As such there is no change in
the visa application process as yet. When the system becomes
operational, clearly there will be a change and people will be
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affected, but as of now there is no change and persons who wish to
travel out of the country may do so at any time. Thank you very
much.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, yes but part of
my question specifically was that the VFS already on their website
said that as from 1st of October they are applying this. So, I did
not get the answer on that and then my second part will be: When
will foreign nationals be able to have their police clearance
validated through the biometric enrolment by this VFS website as
according to the VSF, it is on the 1st of October?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member and hon Chairperson,
it is correct that the deadline that we set for ourselves was the
1st of October 2016. However, as I said due to the technical
challenges experienced, we were not able to comply with that
deadline. I must just say though and I must impress that we are not
legally obliged to assist clients obtaining their police clearance
certificates. We have done so for our client‘s convenience and what
we did not bank on was the exceptional load of data that we would
have to be dealing with and so part of the difficulty that we
experienced at the moment is the capacity of our systems to absorb
that amount of data.
This is a work in progress and really hon members would have to
watch the space. We are working on a solution and we hope that it is
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eminent, but there are many, many dependencies as I said it is not
just the Department of Home Affairs, but it is also Afis as well as
the VFS system that have to interface with each other. It is quite a
complicated thing, but when it works I think it works very, very
well. Thank you very much.
Foreign nationals denied entry/deported
39.
Ms T K Mampuru (Limpopo: ANC) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
How many foreign nationals have been (a) denied entry into the
country
or
(b)
deported
to
their
country
of
residence
for
alleged possession of fraudulent immigration documents in the
2016/17 financial year?
CO47E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Mampuru, thank you very
much for this question. The response from the department is as
follows.
In 2015, the total number of foreign nationals who were refused
entry into our country came to 56 074 people. In 2016, 47 180 people
were refused entry. Currently, the total deportation statistics from
April 2016 to January 2017 stand at 20 258 people.
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The causes of deportations include the possession of fraudulent
immigration documents, lack of immigration documents, persons in
contravention of their visa conditions, failed asylums seekers,
rejected asylum claims, and persons who are foreign nationals who
were convicted at the conclusion of their prison sentences, amongst
other categories.
The statistics, unfortunately, are not disaggregated on the basis of
each category. So, when we deport people for whatever reason, we
don‘t actually keep our statistics in an aggregated form so that we
can‘t actually tell how many people we have deported per category.
But, those are the numbers that we offer. Thank you very much.
Ms T K MAMPURU: Hon Deputy Minister, as we understand it, the second
mandate of the Department of Health is to control, facilitate and
regulate the emigration and movement of persons through the ports of
entry.
What mechanisms are in place for the department to manage this huge
amount of money that you have just told the House about and to
minimise the movement of these persons? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is Home Affairs. It‘s a
slip of the tongue.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: It is true, House Chairperson,
that at this time of the day the tongue becomes very slippery, as we
have seen in some members ... [Laughter.]
May I respond in this way? The issue of illegal migration into our
country is indeed a matter that we are seized with. But, members
must recall, and we will get back to it in later questions, that
actually, at the border area, Home Affairs is only responsible for
the facilitation of movement of persons alongside various other
departments and role-players at the border.
Currently — if I may just take this opportunity to explore this
issue of fraudulent behaviour a little further — one of the things
that we have just received yesterday was a report compiled by our
inspectorate. In fact, one of the most worrying types of fraudulent
behaviour is in relation to fraudulent marriages and not necessarily
fraudulent documents. Fraudulent marriages, for example, would have
a huge implication in terms of the number of people who can apply
for permanent residence and then evolve into getting citizenship.
So, I just want to give members an indication. Eight hundred cases
of persons who applied for permanent residence were selected by our
inspectorate. These cases were of people were applying for permanent
residence on the basis that they were married to South Africans.
When the inspectorate actually went out to each of these individuals
and interviewed them, went to their homes and checked, they found
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that 82% of those individuals were actually not in legitimate
marriages or bona fide marriages. They were concocted marriages. So,
one can understand why it is that Home Affairs is very worried about
this kind of fraudulent behaviour as opposed to things like
documentation and so on. Thank you very much.
Ms Z V NCITHA: House Chairperson, you know, the number of people
that had to be deported from our country is quite scary. What we
would like to know is the breakdown by country of the people that
were deported and from which country this issue of fraudulent
documents emanates. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, House Chair, those
statistics are available. Unfortunately, I am unable to tell you,
just off the top of my head, what they are. But, we can make those
statistics available to the hon member. Thank you.
Mr W F FABER: Chairperson, in light of this whole problem that we
have with fraudulent documents, I would like to ask the Deputy
Minister whether her department would not consider introducing the
so long-awaited electronic visa system. The system has had a huge
effect on our tourism industry and it can also help with employment
because, as you know, every 12 tourists to South Africa actually
results in one person being employed in South Africa. So, the use of
electronic visas will increase tourism to our country and will
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actually also eliminate this scourge of fraudulent documentation.
What is your department‘s stance on this?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: We certainly are in favour of a
more digital and more automated solution to our visa system at the
moment, as you are well aware, hon member. Certainly, it is part of
our plan going forward. If you study our annual reports and our
strategic plans you will see that that is very much on our radar
screen.
The issue though that has to concern us at this stage is the issue
of funding. The bottom line is money. We would be very much
appreciative if hon members of this House would support a bigger
budget for the Department of Home Affairs, not just so that we can
improve our systems as far as immigration is concerned, but, as you
know, hon member, so that we can address the lack capacity in our
inspectorates. So, we do need to employ more people and we do need
to staff our inspectorate a lot better than we currently do. Thank
you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Chairperson, the Deputy Minister referred to more
than 600 fraudulent marriages out of the 800 that were investigated
and we also heard about fraudulent immigration documents. I know the
Deputy Minister is not ready now, but I would like to know how many
of the fraud cases uncovered by the department actually led to
criminal prosecution, or is deportation the route to go. Do we
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actually get ... are we going to see 82% of the 800 criminal cases
in this country?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I want to thank the hon member
for his question. It is precisely the question I had for the
department when I received this report is. I asked whether these
people are going to be prosecuted or are we just simply going to
deny their applications for permanent residence.
The response that I got was that, in fact, they are compiling
charges against individuals. I would imagine that it is both South
Africans as well as non-South Africans, bearing in mind the kind of
things that the Minister of State and Security was talking about
earlier when he mentioned complicity of our own citizens in these
things. We often think about it in terms of foreign nationals, but
we forget that 50% of that has to do with South Africans themselves
who are willing to sell their citizenship to foreign nationals.
In my view, I think there should be more criminal prosecutions. I do
think, however, that, given the fact that our court processes and
the criminal justice system takes a hang of a long time to find
resolution in these types of cases ... As you correctly pointed out,
I unfortunately don‘t have the actual statistics, but my suspicion
is that the department resorts to deportation more than to criminal
charging. I do think that we need to reverse that trend.
Entry/exit points’ scanners
07 MARCH 2017
33.
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Mr M Khawula (KwaZulu-Natal: IFP) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
(1)
Whether the country‘s entry and exit points have
appropriate scanners and other measures to detect critical
materials or equipment either getting into or leaving the
country illegally; if not, why not; if so, what are the
relevant details;
(2)
whether these measures are appropriately located at the
entry and exits points; if not, why not; if so, what are
the relevant details?
CO41E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I, as usual,
welcome questions by hon Khawula, but unfortunately I have this
answer which I am sure he is not going to like very much. The
mandate of the Department of Home Affairs relates to the movement of
people entering and departing the Republic. The movement of goods
which requires scanning and other mechanisms as he speaks about in
his question is not our mandate, but it is the mandate of the SA
Revenue Service, Sars. They will be best position to respond to his
question, in particular, given that it is their mandate.
However, I tried to respond as best as I could to the hon Khawula
and I must just say that the proposed border management authority
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will function, hopefully in a much more integrated fashion because I
do not think that this is a desirable situation that one department
has to deal with the people but another department deals with the
goods that they are bringing here into the country. I mean it is
almost laughable.
Certainly, currently, and not just ourselves as Home Affairs and
Sars, but various other stakeholders at the border environment
execute their own mandate on the basis of what we call the cooperative model which, as I said, we do not think it is ideal. Thank
you very much.
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chair, I am disappointed here. However, now let me
talk to the Deputy Minister of the security cluster of departments.
It is alleged, Deputy Minister, that a certain family at Fireblade
very, very important person, VVIP, terminal; they went into that
terminal and the scanners picked something from a box that was
carried by one of their security personnel and instead of allowing
the officials to check what was in the box, this person then decided
to withdraw the box. Instead of boarding the plane with the box he
decided to vanish. It is a very ... because this is the follow-up
where we should be asking these questions. Now, it is a threat to
the security of the country.
Would a situation like that prevailed I have never been to Fireblade
I do not know where the scanners will be located. In your security
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cluster when you talk about these issues, is it possible that a
person would just decline to have their documents searched at the
airport, especially these VVIP Fireblade terminal. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I thank the hon Khawula for his
follow-up question which he says that he is proposing to the
cluster. However, the question before me says Mr M Khawula, KwaZuluNatal, IFP, to ask the Minister of Home Affairs this question and
not Minister Mapisa-Nqakula who is the chairperson of the cluster.
So again, unfortunately, I have to refer the hon Khawula to the
customs people and the Department of Treasury who would be able to,
I believe, give him a response to his follow-up question because,
indeed, that kind of issue pertains to them, I am afraid, hon
member. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): It is a very important
question. The original one was to Home Affairs, the second one was
to the broader cluster as hon Khawula correctly located it. Hon
Deputy Minister, I invite you now to come to Question 59. I am
reliably informed that hon Chabangu will be standing in for hon
Ngwenya. Hon Deputy Minister!
Systems to track expired work permits
59.
Ms
D
B
Affairs:
Ngwenya
(Gauteng:
EFF)
asked
the
Minister
of
Home
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Whether his department has any systems in place to (a) identify
and (b) curb the increasing number of immigrant workers with
critical skills who are employed by big international corporate
businesses in South Africa with expired work permits; if not,
why not; if so, what systems?
CO67E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, I thank the hon member
for the question. The response is as follows. The department,
through its Inspectorate Unit, conducts inspections of businesses to
verify whether persons employed by the international corporate
businesses have valid visas. As part of this verification, the
inspectorate will confirm whether permits are valid by confirming
their correct issuance by checking the department‘s movement control
system and the track-and-trace system. Security features are also
checked and a verification interview conducted.
To curb the practice of employing persons with expired visas, the
inspectorate can charge the employers, criminally, as well as
detain, deport and declare those with expired visas as undesirable
persons. These are the powers accruing to the inspectorate. Thank
you very much.
Mr M M CHABANGU: Chair, I can see that you are very happy now that
the Deputy Minister is here. You smile every time she answers a
question. That is good. [Laughter.]
07 MARCH 2017
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Do you have a follow-up
question? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Mr M M CHABANGU: My simple question is: Deputy Minister, what about
those immigrants that have entered the country illegally and are
also employed by corporate business in South Africa; and what about
those who bring illegal things to our country, for example, drugs
and human trafficking? How are you going to deal with them? Thank
you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, I thank the hon member
who has taken the place of the original questioner. Let me
reiterate. Clearly, our big challenge, as a country, relates to
illicit entering and also the illicit flow of goods into our border
space. The question is, How do we intend to deal with it?
Firstly, by tightening up our systems, some of which hon members
would know about, and one of which is the electronic visa system
that was spoken about in the previous question. However, the two
most important things for me, at this stage, would be the rapid
establishment of the Border Management Agency under a single command
and control; and capacitating our inspectorate. It is one thing to
have laws and systems in place but if you don‘t also have a policing
mechanism in place, you run into difficulties. So, it has to stand
on those two feet - systems and policing. Thank you very much.
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Mr C HATTINGH: Chair, if one looks at the ordeal that South Africans
who work overseas are sometimes subjected to, where they are
sometimes haunted and cannot really move but have to stick to the
strict regulations of their visas, what systems are in place to keep
track of people who come into the country with work permits and
work, if they do not exceed the period, etc?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chair, hon member, as I said,
one of the problems that we have with the immigration sector of our
department is that we are dealing totally with manual systems. While
we are in the midst of changing over to automated systems, we are
going to have challenges that are brought about by having a manual
system.
It is very much like what we had with the civic section, which was,
essentially, all unautomated. When you automate those systems, you
find that your efficiencies increase and your qualitative outcomes
become a lot better.
The direct answer to your question is that we don‘t have a system,
because we have a manual operating system in most of our embassies
around the globe. So, for us to be able to track, even if it were to
simply track people by going to visit and interview them, I would
say to you at this stage, we simply lack the capacity as far as the
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inspectorate is concerned – in other words, the warm bodies - to be
able to do that.
Having said that, however, I want to assure you that within the
capacity that we do have, we very regularly do go out and do what we
can under the circumstances, given the limited capacity.
Curbing theft/fraudulently acquired IDs
53.
Mr L V Magwebu (Eastern Cape: DA) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
Whether his department has any systems in place to curb (a)
fraudulently acquired identity documents (ID) and (b) ID theft;
if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?
CO61E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, thank you very
much to hon Magwebu for asking this question. Yes, the Department of
Home Affairs uses various systems including the Home Affairs
National Identity System, Hanis, and the National Population
Register as well as the life capture system associated with the
Smart Identity card, ID. The Smart ID card was introduced precisely
to curb the incidence relating to identity theft.
How we do it, of course is improved automatic systems to process
applications and importantly we adopt a risk based approach to both
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access as well as processing protocols. However, the extent to which
we squeeze out identity theft is dependent on two major issues.
Firstly, it is the behaviour of our citizens and how well they
protect their own identity because there are certain
responsibilities that fall on their shoulders.
Secondly, we reach up our own capacity to ensure that we are able to
universally replace the green ID book with the Smart card. Thank you
very much.
Mr L V MAGWEBU: Chairperson, I agree with you, Deputy Minister, that
indeed the introduction of the Smart ID card remains the best
solution to deal with the challenges that were previously
experienced through the manipulation of the application process of
the green bar corded ID, and therefore, it stands to reason that our
National Population Register may be at risk and one can argue that
it has been compromised, the integrity thereof.
Be that as it may, the questions is, are there any joint operations
between the Department of Home Affairs and the Ministry of Policy,
SAPS, where your department sits with SAPS side by side and analyse
the National Population Register to pick up the red flags and begin
to bring those people on book that they be charged, arrested and
prosecuted and those fraudulent IDs being blacklisted eventually.
Thank you.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I would imagine that the member
would know that there are ongoing operations in the Department of
Home Affairs. We have the anti corruption unit installed within our
structure and this unit is therefore consistently looking at risks
faced by the organisation. But also is specifically tasked when in
fact issues arise that give rise to suspicion of fraudulent
activities, it is this unit that is then brought into operation and
deals with this matters.
I must just say that the issue of fraudulent identities should be of
concern to all of us. One of the national treasures, if I may call
it that and our national asset is the National Population Register
and its integrity should be all of our concern. The way it affects
us is in multiple ways. If any of us who operate in a modern society
and in a modern economy require any kind of services, whether it‘s a
government service or private service such as a banking account, you
absolutely need to have faith that your identity is the only one
that exists of its nature on the National Population Register.
If everybody can appreciate how important the National Population
Register is, I think we will be developing awareness amongst our
citizenry of how valuable their citizenship actually is, so that we
starts reducing the number of people who would assist – citizens
would assist noncitizens in enquiring in acquiring our citizenship,
particularly through the late registration of birth process. Thank
you.
07 MARCH 2017
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr J Nyambi): We were supposed to get to
question 41, unfortunately, hon Dlamini is not in the House. That
was on lighter note, I was checking if she is awake. She is present
in the House. Hon Minister, we come to hon Dlamini‘s question,
question 41.
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, I did raise my hand and that is why I am asking.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): There won‘t be any harm. I
missed your hand but I can give you an opportunity. Apologies, hon
Mokwele.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I am not a sleepiest; I am here to work ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele! I‘m giving an
opportunity.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I can‘t sleep you must ask your members, not me.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele, don‘t address
them ask your question. Ask your question.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Deputy Minister, I want to check with you how
far are you in terms of addressing the issue of two people having
one ID number. In most instances you will find that I am declared
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dead by the Department of Home Affairs whereas I‘m still alive. When
you punch my ID number it will reflect that I am a deceased person.
How is your department dealing with such occurrences?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, we have a
special programme within the department related to dealing with what
we call duplicate IDs which essentially stems back from a time when
we had homelands and when we had to integrate – I believe it was
about 12 - the Chairperson would know better at that time. I think
it was 12 different homelands into one integrated system. But I do
know that substantial progress has been made. I just don‘t have the
figures of hand but I‘m quite sure we can make those available.
In so far as the people being declared dead, you would have notice –
or married for that matter – you would have noticed that in the past
three years or so we have not been accused of a single instance of
such misrecording and the reason for that is the following, as I say
to you when it comes to fraudulent transactions on the National
Population Register, you have to have a South African doing
something.
In the case of death, usually it would be a South African who would
come and report that a relative has passed on and we would simple
record those particulars on our national population register
thinking that, of course, if somebody notifies us that their father
or mother has passed on, they wouldn‘t be lying to us.
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Our society has become a lot different from the society of the past.
We have now been forced to take people‗s biometric details. So when
you come and report to us that your relative has passed on, we will
take your biometric details so that at no stage can people accuse
home affairs officials of manipulating their status.
Often times we find - when investigating such matters as we have had
the opportunity to do in the past, you would find that there is
always insurance - sum of money that some people wanted to claim
which is why they needed to come and report somebody as deceased to
obtain a death certificate in order to access the life insurance or
funeral benefits etc.
Since we have introduced the biometric data we find that nobody
comes and complains about being declared dead or married
unwittingly. Thank you.
Establishment of Border Management Agency
41.
Ms L C Dlamini (Mpumalanga: ANC) asked the Minister of Home
Affairs:
Whether
specific
time
frames
are
in
place
regarding
the
establishment of the Border Management Agency; if not, why not;
if so, what are the relevant details?
CO49E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the reply is that
it was initially anticipated that the border management authority,
07 MARCH 2017
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which was formally called the agency would be established by April
2017. However, the enabling legislation for the authority is
currently being processed in Parliament and in fact, we have just
come from the portfolio committee earlier on today where the
portfolio committee has passed the Bill. It will now be going to the
National Assembly and then, in due course, to the National Council
of Provinces.
In 2015, we finalised a feasibility study and business case for the
border management authority, BMA, and submitted these to National
Treasury for listing, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act
as a schedule 3(a) national public entity. Feedback on this is still
being awaited, as it will also inform the BMA establishment process
and timeframe. While we anticipate that the legislation will pass
through Parliament this year, we are unfortunately unable to give a
date as to when the BMA will be formally established. All of it
depends on Parliament. Thank you.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, thank you very much
for the response. We have just received a message that the portfolio
committee has finalised it and the National Assembly will be dealing
with it tomorrow. Then it will come to us. It is quite a good piece
of work that we are doing, which I think, will solve a number of
challenges that we have in our border post.
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I just want to check one thing. Will the development and maintenance
of the infrastructure be part of this, because that has been one of
the main problems at our border posts? You will find that even if
you improve, at the end, the borderlines are down. That is where
there were serious challenges. Will the maintenance and development
of the infrastructure be part of the work of the border management
authority?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the hon member
knows very well that the issue of infrastructure and equipment at
the borderline is the responsibility of the Department of Public
Works. We certainly envisage a different scenario when the border
management authority is established, in the sense that we keep using
the terminology that says that the border management agency will be
under a single command and control. This is what we envisage, that
in fact, both the ports of entry and the borderline area become the
responsibility of the border management agency. As part of that
agency, you have different components of the state being
represented.
We certainly are of the view that infrastructure is very, very
critical, particularly, on our borderline where in some instances;
we don‘t even have markings as to where our border is, etc. So, we
do envisage that those powers and functions will incrementally be
dealt with by the border management authority.
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I do want to stress however that we do not, as a department,
envisage that the border management agency will suddenly come into
effect the day the legislation passes it. We envisage a process of
incremental building of this institution. So, you will find that the
border management agency will actually take form and shape in
different phases. While we have already started a new pyramid scheme
for our border management profile, certainly, we hope to build on
that core instrument and one of which would hopefully be
infrastructure as well. Thank you.
Mr C HATTINGH: Hon Chair, any successful border management
organisation relies on some policing. With our extended borders, we
are certainly challenged with a considerable scale of this
enforcement. The Minister has indicated that we only have, from the
South African National Defence Force, SANDF, a limited number of the
battalions that we require. We have learned in the Budget that even
that is going to be downscaled. Defence is going to shrink. On the
other hand, we have also learned that the police are underequipped,
undertrained and undercapacitated. Now, to manage this BMA, you need
the security component. What is the solution and how is it going to
be funded?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much for that
considered question. I think that is correct. However, I don‘t think
that our resort has to be to the kind of policing that we
traditionally think about, in other words, warm bodies at the border
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all the time kind of thing. I do think there is going to be a huge
scope for innovation for the deployment of technology, but also
engagement.
The one thing I keep on saying is that South Africa has never had a
border management agency. They have always had a Department of Home
Affairs. So, it is easy to transition from an apartheid state into a
democracy and you just keep your institutions and transform the
institutions. What we have never had is a border management agency.
And this has been part of the problem because when you don‘t have
it, you have to start creating it from scratch. That is not a small
task; it is a huge task, but it is a historic one in the sense that
we believe that it is the right time now for us, as a country, to
pay serious attention to developing such a mechanism. However, we
can‘t always rely on foot patrol at our borders.
One of the things that we will have to look at, and we are working
with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, on
this issue, is precisely what the modalities available are, to
ensure that we have eyes and ears everywhere. Drones, for example,
and drone technology might be employed.
I also think we must not negate very basic principles such as taking
on board the communities that live at the border because they are
literally your eyes and ears. And if they understand their role in
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terms of securing our country, then I think we would have a real
winning partnership.
Our responsibility is to really explore those frontiers and try and
ensure that whatever is best practice internationally, we deploy to
our borders. It is not going to be an easy task.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, hon Deputy
Minister of Home Affairs.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
The Council adjourned at 16:50.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
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Committee Reports for this day.
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