Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 01 Mar 2017
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 1 MARCH 2017
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PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:03.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a
moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
Question 1:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker and hon members, as we all
know, the issue of the national minimum wage was raised by the
President in the 2014 state of the nation address when he asked
the Deputy President, together with social partners, to try and
address this matter and address, really, the issue of income
inequality in our economy and our country.
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Following those fairly lengthy deliberations – a number of
Members of Parliament kept asking when it would be finalised,
and we kept saying that it took the Germans eight years to
arrive at a national minimum wage – it took us just over two
years and, as we all know, the social partners have agreed to
the introduction of a national minimum wage and to peg it at
R20 per hour. At the very least, this will be implemented with
effect from 1 May 2018.
The agreement was signed by all social partners, except for
Cosatu. Cosatu had been a very active participant in the whole
process of negotiation but, at the end, they said they have
their own reporting processes that they need to abide by, and
they requested that we give them an opportunity to go and
report. At the same time, they said we should go ahead and sign
the agreement. When I asked the president of Cosatu what this
was for – whether it was for consultation or merely reporting
back – he informed me that it was for reporting back. We do hope
and trust that they will, post their central executive committee
discussions, be able to give us an indication of where they
stand.
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In the end, on a monthly basis, the amount of R20 per hour for a
40-hour week translates to R3 500. For those who work 45 hours
per week, on a monthly basis, it comes to R3 900. The
introduction of this wage at this level will have, in our view,
a significant impact on the lives of roughly 6,6 million South
Africans who currently earn below R3 500 per month. When
research was done on this, it indicated to us that the majority
of our people earn well below R4 000 per month. These are people
who are employed. You could then say that we have a working
poor. Several measures were agreed to by the social partners to
ensure that the introduction of the national minimum wage does
not have negative effects on the viability of businesses, as
well as on employment.
Businesses unable to afford the payment of this minimum wage
will be able to apply for an exemption for up to 12 months at a
time. In doing so, they will have to give reasons why they are
not able to do so. Any fragile sectors having difficulty in
complying with the national minimum wage would be considered for
assistance within available means, including through incentives.
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A national minimum wage commission will be established. One of
its tasks will be to recommend annual adjustments to the level
of the minimum wage. The minimum wage will also be reviewed
regularly by this very commission and, in doing so, it will also
take into account the impact of the level of the minimum wage on
employment, poverty, and inequality, as well as economic
conditions at the time. In addition, as it is the practice in
the development of new legislation, government will conduct, on
an ongoing basis, a socioeconomic impact assessment, firstly
ahead of the finalisation of a Bill on the national minimum
wage.
The introduction of this minimum wage for people who are
experiencing income inequality is quite historic. One of the
social partners, a community representative, characterised this
as a revolutionary development that sets the stage for a far
more concerted national effort to defeat poverty. This came from
leaders in the nongovernmental organisation sector who had been
involved with us. Clearly, they want to get us on the journey of
beginning the process of negotiating a comprehensive social
security process.
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Not only will this wage significantly improve the income of
nearly 50% of working people, but it establishes a foundation
for progress towards the realisation of a living wage for all.
Now, a living wage for all, clearly, is going to be the purview
of our trade unions. They will continue the struggle for a
living wage, but what we have done through introducing a
national minimum wage is set a floor below which no South
African should ever be paid. We are hoping that, when it is
introduced, it will have an impact on income inequality, and it
would lift a lot of our people out of income poverty and set us
on the right path to have a living wage in the end. Thank you
very much, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms F S LOLIWE: Speaker, I would like to thank the Deputy
President for the clear response. [Interjections.] The
Department of Labour’s budget for the employment of inspectors
is minimal. What measures will be put in place to complement the
department in monitoring the implementation of the national
minimum wage? Thank you.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the reason we agreed with
the social partners that implementation should only be next year
is to give the Department of Labour sufficient time to prepare
for the implementation of the minimum wage.
This is so because we would like to see full compliance. This
period is going to ensure that we reach out to employers and
make as many businesses as possible aware of how the minimum
wage is going to function and raise their level of compliance.
At the same time, the Department of Labour is setting up a
fairly rigorous and robust process within the department to
monitor this. Now, the budgetary impact of it all will be
outlined, I am sure, by the Minister in the coming year when she
outlines her departmental budget.
We believe that we will be able to set up processes and a fairly
robust inspectorate to ensure there is compliance throughout the
economy. In the end, the national minimum wage will only really
be effective if there is maximum compliance. We are talking to
businesses to make sure that it should not be so much a matter
of being policed; it should be a matter of them participating in
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all this on a compliance-driven basis. The pleasing thing is
that they participated fairly actively with us in the
negotiation to this. We had the various business organisations,
and I am sure that, from now on, they will be talking to their
members to make sure that, indeed, they do comply with this
minimum wage. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M S MBATHA: Speaker, I will give the question to the deputy
president.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, the question posed to the deputy
president of the ANC was that the minimum wage was going to
reduce income poverty. You will agree with me, Deputy President,
that the biggest form of poverty characterising the majority of
South Africans – the black majority, in particular – is the
poverty of landlessness.
Yesterday, the ANC voted against expropriation without
compensation. They voted against your President’s suggestion
that there should be appropriation of land without compensation.
As part of that ANC-led Presidency, you say that there must
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expropriation without compensation. Parliament says that it must
not happen. What is your view in terms of the expropriation of
land without compensation? Should we pursue that as an agenda,
as a means to dealing decisively with the landlessness and the
poverty of our people, as it is being dealt with here?
I am asking you this question now because it is urgent, and you
are only going to come back after three months.
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. Don’t motivate the question.
Your one minute has expired. Hon Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, a number of factors drive poverty
in our country. One of them is unemployment. Indeed, one of them
is asset poverty – asset poverty that also involves the lack of
property or landownership and other assets as well.
Now, when it comes to the issue of expropriation without
compensation, the matter was actively canvassed in this House
yesterday. I am not going to bore this House by going through
the debate that was entertained here yesterday. I think the
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matter was well canvassed; it was mostly robustly debated. As
much as I wasn’t here because I couldn’t be here, I looked at
the television reports, and I saw how the EFF argued the case
and how a number of other parties argued the case.
What should be said is that, indeed, the issue of land is still
very central in the minds of many of our people. There is land
hunger in our country. From the ANC’s point of view, this is a
matter that is being addressed robustly. The various programmes
we have in place are addressing this matter, including policies
that we have been implementing ever since 1994. We are a
political party that subscribes to the rule of law. Right now,
we have a Constitution that prescribes that land should be dealt
with in a particular way.
The ANC is pursuing to implement what is set out in our
Constitution because we subscribe to the rule of law. Thank you
very much. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Madam Speaker, through you to the Deputy
President: What is very clear is that the R3 500 minimum wage
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that we are introducing will certainly not be enough to address
the inequality in our society. For hundreds of years, some of
our employees, including farm workers who have been exploited,
have been earning a minimum wage.
This being the first step in the direction of trying to address
inequality, would you also consider at some stage very soon to
introduce beneficiation, particularly for farm workers so that
that they enjoy housing, they enjoy pension funds, and they
enjoy medical aid by these employers who have exploited them for
such a very long period of time?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I agree that the R3 500 is
a type of wage that is not going to wipe out poverty in our
country. In fact, in arriving at this figure, we had to have a
very good balance. The issue that faced us and that faced the
panel that advised us was whether to peg it so high – maybe
R8 000 or R12 000 – and they knew, and we also knew that if we
pegged it high, many people would lose jobs. However, at the
same time, we knew that if we pegged it far lower than the
R3 500 or R20 per hour, it would not have an impact.
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So, R20 per hour was the balance that could be achieved and
found at this point in time. I repeat: R3 500 or R20 per hour is
not a living wage, but everyone has recognised it as a very good
start towards addressing the issue of income inequality in our
country. Admittedly, a number of people, as I said, in our
country are earning way below that right now. You will not
believe that our research told us that even workers involved in
logistics in urban areas are earning as little as R6 per hour.
There are still many people whose income right now is still way,
way below where this R20 per hour is. So, the R20 per hour is
beginning to resonate with a number of people. Even those people
who dismissed it are beginning to see that it is a start, and it
builds a foundation upon which we can finally end up with a
highly paid working population in our country.
Coming to the issue of beneficiation, particularly for farm
workers, as you call it, clearly we want to get to the point
where farm workers earn a decent wage. In fact, they should earn
a living wage. They should be able to have medical aid. They
should be able to have all the benefits that working people in
other sectors enjoy.
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Coming to farm workers, you will, of course, be aware of some of
the programmes and pilot programmes that Minister Gugile Nkwinti
has embarked upon. He has reached agreement with a number of
farmers to convert workers from just being mere farm workers to
being partners in a number of farming operations.
[Interjections.] When it started, a number of people opposed
this. More and more farmers are now embracing this, and this is
spreading. It will soon spread like a wildfire. What it will end
up with is that we will have workers who work on the farms being
treated with dignity, who, even if they have lost their jobs,
will not be railroaded off the farms, something that currently
still happens, where they will be paid decent wages, and where
their conditions of employment will be a lot better than what
they are now.
With the national minimum wage, hon member, we are on a roll –
we are on a roll to improving the conditions of employment, as
well as income of many workers in the South African economy. We
need to embrace this and make sure that it happens and is fully
implemented. Thank you very much.
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Mr I M OLLIS: Speaker, through you to the Deputy President: We
are all concerned when we see the plight of poor people sitting
on the road, people who are struggling. However, twice during
the December question session here in the House, you stated that
there will be job losses as a result of the imposition of the
national minimum wage, and you undertook to engage with Nedlac
on practical measures to limit those job losses, other than the
farming sector and the domestic work sector, which we already
know about. Subsequently, Nedlac has accepted the national
minimum wage proposals.
This leads me to ask you the following: Could you tell us what
practical measures you have agreed at Nedlac to limit or
significantly reduce the job losses when the national minimum
wage is implemented?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the panel that advised the social
partners, the committee of principals, has been engaged to look
more closely at this matter.
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Initially, they did say to us there may well be job losses, but
the information at hand is not definitive. They had looked at a
number of international studies as well. The World Bank and a
number of others did say that yes, sometimes, the issue of job
losses is exaggerated, and sometimes it does not eventuate, as
it has been supposed. We have asked them to look at this matter
very closely and come back to us to tell us what the
eventualities could well be.
In our discussions, we have also looked at a number of proposals
on what can be done to mitigate job losses. Of course, one of
those is exactly what I said earlier – that businesses can come
forward and apply for exemption. If a business is not able to
pay the minimum wage, they will be allowed to come forward and
say that they are not able to pay the amount, and they will be
granted an exemption. [Interjections.] However, they will have
to outline precisely what their difficulties are, so that is the
first one. We are also going to look at vulnerable sectors of
the economy where incentives could well be paid as well.
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We are also going to look at whether there can be tax breaks for
some of those types of employers. We are also going to look at a
number of other measures and interventions. Let me just assure
members that we are not flying into this blind. [Interjections.]
We are not flying into this blind; we are taking fairly
calculated positions to make sure that we do mitigate the
possibility of job losses.
Here is the real issue – the real issue that faced us was
whether we continue to countenance income inequality or whether
we do something that is quite revolutionary. We opted for a
revolutionary stance but, at the same time, we said that to the
extent that there will be job losses, we are going to put in
place a number of measures. One of the important ones would be
getting an exemption, an exemption that will last for a year
and, if after a year your business still cannot afford it, you
are allowed and entitled to come back and say this is how my
business is operating. So, vulnerable businesses, and businesses
that are in difficulty, will be able to come forward.
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In the end, what we want to prevent is mass job losses. With
this agreement amongst the parties, we are certain that we are
going to mitigate massive job losses. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Question 2:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the deployment of the SA National
Defence Force is solely within the purview of the President of
the Republic of South Africa, in his capacity as the head of the
executive and also in his capacity as the Commander in Chief of
the SANDF. [Applause.] Now, section 4 of the Powers and
Privileges Act sets out when security forces may be deployed.
In that regard, the decisions of this nature are often
communicated by one branch of the state to another, and in doing
so, they are not communicated through the Leader of Government
Business, nor is there any requirement in law or in the rules of
Parliament that they should be so communicated. This year, as in
previous years, the issue of the deployment of the SANDF
personnel, was transmitted by letter from the President to the
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presiding Officers. As a result, the Leader of Government
Business does not get involved in such matters.
The letters, historically, includes the reason for their
deployment; the numbers of officers that are deployed and the
period for which they are deployed. These letters are a matter
of a public record. They are out there in the public. Thank you
very much.
Ms D KOHLER: [Interjections.] ... that is outrageous!
The SPEAKER: The next speaker is the hon Meshoe. Oh! I’m sorry.
You know, we don’t normally write the first person. So, I missed
out on the Leader of the Opposition, hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, thank you very
much, Deputy President. I think we can all agree as the fellow
South Africans that the answer you’ve just given to say that you
have no role in the deployment of the SANDF to the parliamentary
precinct on Thursday, 9 February 2017, is actually a key
departure from Section 91(4) of the Constitution that enjoins
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you as the Leader of Government Business that you are directly
responsible for the interaction between the executive and this
particular Parliament.
Furthermore, I think that there is a critical issue of the fact
that we have seen the chaos that is been ensuing in the state of
the nation addresses that has taken place. We now have the
President that has violated the Constitution and we have a
Speaker that has violated the Constitution. So, Deputy
President, what I would like to know ... [Interjections.]
Speaker, I’m sorry, I can’t speak!
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order, hon members! Please
allow the hon Leader of the Opposition to finish! Hon members,
may I appeal that you allow the hon Leader of the Opposition to
finish! Please proceed, hon Maimane!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you! So, Deputy President,
every year we see the increase of the use of police; the
security agency and now the army coming to the state of the
nation address to intimidate the Members of Parliament, members
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of the media and the ordinary South Africans. So, I would like
to ask, but before I ask, I think that you and I can agree that
this should remain the people’s Parliament and not the
executive’s Parliament.
In the light of that, Deputy President, in your role as the
Leader of Government Business as I’ve outlined, what steps will
you take to ensure that firstly, the executive never again
abuses the state security apparatus to intimidate Members of
Parliament and the media? Secondly, that Parliament, in fact,
returns to its place as a separate and an independent arm of
government? Do you, in fact, support the actions of the
executive and those of a President? I thank you, Speaker.
[Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I would like to say that,
where I agree with the Leader of the Opposition is that, when he
does speak and pose his question, he should be given an
opportunity to do so in peace and without much disturbance that
I agree with him on. I am sure that he will agree with me that,
as the Leader of the Opposition, he will be able to hold back
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his own members. When some of us speak, they haul and shout at
the back there! I hope he will be able to do so. [Applause.]
Now, I would be easily stand here and champion his case for
decorum and for quietness as you have urged members to do.
Coming back to the question you’ve raised, hon Maimane, as I
recall, the issues that you are raising now are a central
subject of a case that has been launched against six respondents
by the DA, case number 2526 of 2017. In the papers, some of your
prayers to the court are that the court should rule and declare
that the use of the SANDF is unconstitutional and it must
declare that the Constitution was violated.
The court must also declare that the Powers, Privileges and
Immunities Act was also violated, and it must also declare that
the various parties that are cited, which is the President, the
Speaker, the Chairperson of the National Council of the
Provinces, the Minister of Police and the Minister of Defence
and Military Veterans, did all these deeds as the members of the
executive.
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Now, please allow me not to enter this space which you’ve now
taken to an independent tribunal in our country. Let the
tribunal address these issues, because once that tribunal has
ruled on these matters, I will then be able to answer the
question you have raised. The tribunal that you have gone to,
will be able to give us definitive answers. So, I want to leave
it there. I think that you’ve gone to the best tribunal; to the
High Court in order to give you a ruling on this matter.
I therefore think that we should allow the ruling to happen, and
I’m sure the High Court will be ruling on this matter fairly
soon and I’m sure that you’ll be excited if you win this case.
That’s where I want to leave it. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, the Leader of Government Business was
the member of this House during the first democratic Parliament.
He knows very well that security measures during the state of
the nation addresses back then did not include thousands of the
SA Police Services, SAPS, officers and hundreds of armed
soldiers on and around these precincts. If indeed he was not
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informed about the presence of hundreds of armed soldiers who
were deployed during the state of the nation address, what was
his first reaction, when he saw them, because during the
apartheid they were not seen on the premises? [Interjections.]
Secondly, is there somebody who is suffering from paranoia, and
if that is the case, we want to know who is fearful and whose
life is being threatened? According to your knowledge, Deputy
President, the President’s life is not threatened, and if indeed
he is threatened, I would like to know, what is it that he has
done that would cause the people of South Africa to go after
him? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Since 1994, yes, indeed, I have observed
the presence of the SAPS members and I have also observed the
presence of the SANDF members lining up the streets in various
streets of Cape Town. Yes, a number of them have been armed with
guns, which is a normal thing for a soldier to go around armed.
However, I never thought that they were threatening. I’ve always
seen them as aligning the streets at Parliament on the state of
the nation address day.
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The soldiers align the streets just as the Members of Parliament
also struts along the streets, the carpets, the world clothes
and all that, looking really absolutely lovely. I saw you this
year, hon Meshoe, also looking really outstanding. I have always
observed all these. Quite honestly, I never thought that the
members of the SANDF and the police are threatening.
Yes, they are often here in numbers, and I’ve often seen many of
them, but they are always on ceremonial type of guard. They are
just guarding by being there, and by really showing a clear
demonstration of the state in their uniforms and in a ceremonial
fashion. So, I never thought that they were there to protect
anyone, to guard anyone and to harm anyone. That, I have never
observed. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy President, in light
of the fact that this matter has come up with a lot of concerns,
a bit of tensions and also, in light of the fact that this
matter is also linked with the protection services that enter
the House to eject the members, of course, the issue of the
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protection services and the Serjeant-at-arms is covered under
Rule 70, 71, 72 and 73 of our Rule’s book.
Would you, as the Leader of Government Business, deem it fit
that the meetings that were held, led by yourself, the presiding
officers and the party representatives, be resuscitated in order
to ensure that such concerns are dealt with, once and for all?
Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I think that we once held really good
meetings which we thought would help in addressing quite a
number of challenges that we faced. It was a sad pity that in
the course of those meetings, some good faith was broken and
that led to the breakdown of that whole process. It is a process
which I on one hand as the Leader of Government Business was
going to follow-up with the Speaker, the Chair of the National
Council of the Provinces and the leaders of the political
parties to become part of that process.
When we initially met, I thought that we were onto something
that was really good, which would have served this Parliament
extremely well. But, no sooner than we had started that the good
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faith that we thought we were establishing and cementing, was
broken. That led to the complete breakdown of that whole
process. If what you are saying is that we should reconsider
this matter, I know that the Speaker and the Chair of the
National Council of the Provinces often hold meetings with
political parties, we can look into that and see whether it does
become an avenue or an option that we can work on.
What I do know is that the Speaker, currently, meets with the
leaders of political parties and that to what I’ve been informed
is going very well. I am glad that you have raised that point
because it is taking me back down memory lane. It is also taking
me down to a rather painful moment when good faith was broken
and the whole process just collapsed. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Mr M S MABIKA: Speaker, the question to the Deputy President is,
if the number of soldiers that was deployed in Parliament can be
deployed to protect one individual that should be well
protected, I mean the President, what then stops the government
from sending the troops to go to the borders of Mozambique and
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South Africa to stop the vehicles that are stolen from
unprotected and innocent people from around Jozini and
uMkhanyakude that is happening every day?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the member is raising law and
order matter which has to do with criminal investigation and the
matter also has to do with how we secure our borders are. This
is a matter which the various line Ministers deal with on an
ongoing basis. Let me say this upfront that the presence of the
SANDF in Parliament is not to protect any individual. They were
here to conduct their own ceremonial duties on the opening of
Parliament. Now ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I’m waiting for that
magical moment which I advocated for when the Leader of the
Opposition spoke. Now that I have that magical moment, let me
say that, we may differ on this issue and it is not wrong to
differ, but the good thing is that the DA has taken this matter
to court. Let us therefore allow the courts of our country to
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make a determination on this matter, so that we stop differing
on every point.
I am outlining precisely what I believe the SANDF was deployed
here for. The opposition parties have got a different view that
they were here to protect one person. Of course, we differ with
that! Now that we differ, let us allow the courts to make a
determination on this matter. Once the courts have made a
determination, we will know what the truth is. Thank you very
much.
Question 3:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, on the Question of whether I
as a Leader of Government Business received a submission from
the said individual on the Financial Intelligence Centre
Amendment, Fica, Bill. The answer is, no. I did not receive such
a submission. I would, however, like to make use of this
opportunity to commend all parties in this House for the
unanimous adoption of the amended Bill yesterday. I thought we
did a really good job – to amend the Bill. [Applause.]
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The legislation that we voted on yesterday will significantly
strengthen our ability to tackle money laundering and the
financing of terrorism and bring South Africa in line with
international standards. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, I don’t know what the Table staff did
with this question because the way it appears on this; it is not
what we have asked. The question we had asked is that during the
submissions to the Standing Committee on Finance, a member of
the public came to say that if this Bill is passed and signed
into law, the ANC is going to be broke, basically intimating
that the ANC benefits from the lack of legislation that seeks to
combat money laundering and financing of terrorist activities.
No member of the ANC in that committee objected to that. He said
that if this Bill goes on, the ANC is going to be broke. He
identified himself as a professional who represent the ANC – his
name is Jimmy Manyi. He argued strongly that the ANC is going to
be broke if this Bill is passed. We are asking you as you are a
Leader of Government Business and a Deputy President of the ANC.
Is that the case that the ANC is linked to money laundering and
financing of terrorist activities to finance its programmes?
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That is what was intimated by ―mkhovu‖ of the Guptas called
Jimmy Manyi.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we did not get the Question
as couched in that way, hon Shivambu. If the Question had been
couched in that way to us, clearly we would have said that the
ANC does not rely on laundered money. The ANC for its finances
does not rely on money that is filtered into the country through
money laundering or the financing of terrorist activities.
We abhor money laundering. We are totally against money
laundering and money that is meant to finance terrorism. It is
for that reason that we support this Bill and we also applaud
everyone who voted in favour of this. Now if what you are saying
is true that this was said by Mr Jimmy Manyi, I don’t know what
he is talking about, and clearly he is not talking for the ANC
that I lead and that I know. [Applause.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: Deputy President, while we are on the question
of Jimmy Manyi, as my colleague pointed out ... [Interjections.]
... strongly oppose this Bill. Do you think is right given the
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fact that it is now being revealed that Mr Jimmy Manyi received
R840 000 from parastatals, including R440 000 paid by the now,
and I’ve used this hesitantly, hon Brian Molefe, who at the time
was the chief executive officer of Eskom to the Progressive
Professionals Forum? Do you think that is right?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, with the greatest respect, I
have no knowledge of all this. [Interjections.] If I did have
any knowledge possibly, I would be able to prefer a view, but I
have no knowledge of that – I have no knowledge of the doings of
Mr Jimmy Manyi being funded by whoever. So, I am afraid, I am
unable to assist you. Much as I would really like to assist you,
and give you maximum assistance on anything you would ask – on
this one you will have to forgive me - I have no knowledge – I’m
sorry about that. [Interjections.]
Ms D KOHLER: Read the papers!
The SPEAKER: Order!
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Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, the Bill, of
course, had to come back because the President cited a very
interesting but baseless concern, which even the legal experts
who have been consulted said that it was a waste of time for the
Bill to come back. What is evident is that there is a lack of
political will in the Presidency to sign this Bill into law. So,
whilst you have congratulated the House and all of us for voting
for it yesterday, are you prepared - in this House now, to give
us a surety that the Bill will be signed as a matter of urgency,
given the fact that corruption is one of the greatest threats to
our democracy and that this Bill seeks to safeguard us from that
corruption. Are you prepared to ensure, to push and champion the
signing of this Bill on the basis of your congratulatory
message? On its own, it is baseless.
IsiZulu:
Sifuna isayindiwe ngoba sikhathele ubugebengu.
USEKELA MONGAMELI: Nami ngima nawe lapho ngifuna ukuthi
isayindwe kodwa-ke ngumsebenzi kaMongameli lowo. [Ubuwelewele.]
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English:
Only the President can assent to Bills in terms of one of his
constitutional duties. Indeed, being urged by you and many other
people to sign the Bill will be some of the considerations that
he keeps in mind that the Bill must be signed. He will be
getting advice from a number of people. So, let us leave it to
the President, as our executive leader - that he should apply
his mind to this Bill now that it is going to come back to him.
All of us hope that he is going to be able to sign the Bill, as
he has to sign a number of other Bills that are often brought
before him. Thank you very much.
Mr S N BUTHELEZI: Thank you, hon Speaker, hon Deputy President,
now that you are done with conspiracy theories, can we then come
back to the thing that we did yesterday. Now that we have passed
the Fica Bill, do you think, hon President, that this will
enhance business confidence in our economy, which is critical
for fixed investments by the private sector, economic growth and
of course, employment creation. Can you please tell us why would
you think so, if you agree with me? Thank you.
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Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, on a point of order, just quickly
I think Parliament must note that the hon speaker, who spoke now
recite to the Deputy President as hon President, ...
[Interjections.] ... is that ...[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please take your seat.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker, my answer to hon
Junior Buthelezi or Buthelezi Junior is that the signing of the
Bill is going to enhance our stature and the international
investment community. They will see that we are deadly serious
against corruption and money laundering. As we all know, we
operate in a globalised community. By and large on many things
that we do, we’ve got to be able to do what is reasonable and
proper that other countries do. This happens to be one of those.
We don’t necessarily willy nilly have to do everything that
other countries do, but this is one of those because it is
against money laundering and also supporting terrorists
financially.
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Now what will this do in terms of enhancing our position when it
comes to investment? Investors will look at our country and see
that we are equal comparators with many other countries that
they invest in. It is going to be one of those things where they
mark us correctly and say South Africa having signed this Bill
means that it is serious about corruption and it is open for
business and investment. I think it will enhance our chances
because answering your question directly hon Buthelezi investors
want to invest in countries that subscribe to certain values.
They want to invest in countries that they know have a moral
compass. By doing so, we will be demonstrating to the world
that, indeed, as South Africans we do have a moral compass. We
are people of integrity and we abhor corruption. We are totally
against things like money laundering and supporting terrorists’
activities – and that in itself is going to make us a blue-chip
investment destination. I am sure that those who are serious
about investments will be able to bring their investments our
way. Thank you very much.
Question 4:
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: South Africa was well represented the
World Economic Forum, WEF, meeting in Davos. It was represented
by government, business, labour, people from NGOs sector as well
as the media from our country.
Working together as what we call Team South Africa, this group
was extremely effective in communicating a coherent message,
particularly around the progress that we are making as a country
in a number of areas. These includes how we are implementing
economic transformation and our own reform agenda on how we are
making progress towards inclusive growth as well as finding ways
in which we can increase employment, and on how we are restoring
investor confidence in our economy and how we are achieving a
more supportive business environment.
We also were able to outline to them the measures that we are
taking in as far as refining government spending and how we seek
to make our spending efficient.
In each of these cases, Team South Africa was able to provide
practical examples of where progress has been achieved and to
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highlight where further work needs to be done. I must tell you
that it was quiet heart-warming to see how South Africans from
all huse of life were able to sing from one hymn sheet and
communicate a single message about our country. We were united
in purpose; united in delivering a clear message to the world.
This message was well received by many people with whom we
interfaced collectively and individually.
There is a great deal of goodwill towards our country and a
genuine desire from both government and business leaders to see
the country succeeding, particularly in overcoming some of the
challenges that we face both economically as well as at social
level.
Madam Speaker, among the issues that dominated this year’s
deliberations is the problem of the increasing polarisation
between rich and poor, which is exacerbated by the slowing down
of the growth of the middle class as the mainstay of economic
activity and prosperity.
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There was broad agreement among the various global economic
leaders at the WEF that there needs to be a concerted global
effort to promote inclusive growth, which brings the millions of
poor and unemployed into the productive and beneficial economic
activity.
Amongst many other things that we addressed were the issue of
the industrial revolution and the impact that the industrial
revolution is going to have on a number of economies and
particularly working people in our countries. Leaders also
discussed the need to strength systems for global collaboration.
In this regard, it was a joy to listen to President Xi Jinping
of China addressing the world leaders on the issue of
globalisation and on how countries can benefit from
globalisation and how weak nations and people who are in poverty
need to be assisted to deal with the issues of globalisation.
So, South Africa’s participation was a great. We came out of
there having made good friends, but also having position our
country well as an investment destination.
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May I add as I end, Madam Speaker, that I know that a number of
people did signed some deals, they met a number of investors and
business partners, and so, all in all, those few days that were
spent in Davos, were good days much as it was called a ―did come
back‖. Team South Africa came back having delivered a really
good message about our country. We can be proud of those people
who went there. Thank you very much.
Ms J L FUBBS: Yes, thank you hon Speaker and hon Deputy
President for your comprehensive response, which acknowledges
the increasing polarisation between the rich and the poor and
also the profound impact of the Fourth Industrial Revolution,
which it is likely to have on our country’s workplace,
employment and skills development profiles. Recognising that
innovation and technology upgrading of fundamental to industrial
development, especially in South Africa, were most enterprises
innovate by importing capital equipment rather than conducting
research or buying from local institutions, therefore, please,
Deputy President, can you share with this House how in this
highly competitive global environment new technologies are
playing and can continue to play a crucial role in maintaining
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and even improving South Africa’s competitiveness, especially in
sectors such as manufacturing and mining value chains, which can
absorb larger numbers of skilled, unskilled or semi-skilled
workers? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker and hon Fubbs, I had the
honour and the privilege to participate in a sectional
discussion at the WEF on science and technology. I also had the
opportunity to share with leaders in Africa and globally about
the work that our country is doing in the space of science and
technology. I was able to inform them on the various things we
are doing in research and development with a very limited budget
that the Minister of Science and Technology has, but I was
overjoyed to know that all those people that I met there knew
our Minister of Science and Technology and articulated great
respect for her and her participation in various forums in the
world that deal with science and technology. [Applause.]
They were able to give hip praise on us, on the advances that we
are making, on the square kilometre array, SKA, development were they said, you are not only leading South Africa in this
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regard, you are leading Africa into the world on a scientific
and technological basis. [Applause.]
Now that to me was a real joy. If there ever was a moment when
one could have felt so proud of our country, that was the time
when a developing economy that we are was recognised for being
really up there with more developed economies when it comes to
science and technology.
We were able to tell them that we are utilising that science and
technology on a number of fields, not only in manufacturing, but
also in health and in a number of other areas such as mining and
farming as well.
So, one was able, Madam Speaker, to share with people from all
over the world, precisely the work that we are doing here in
South Africa. We were able to also outline to them how our young
people are excelling in a number of fields and how they are also
winning awards. So, that day, was a great day for South Africa
when we regaled the world about the achievements that we have
amassed and clearly there is much more that still needs to be
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done. People, who love science and technology, like me and the
Minister, would like to see her budget growing more so that we
can excel when it comes to science and technology because we are
using our science and technological prowess for good effect,
manufacturing, health, mining and a number of other related
areas.
So, we are great when it comes to science and technology and I
would like all of us to recognise how great we are and how much
greater we can be as a country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Deputy President, on Monday night, your
alliance partner, the SACP, through its deputy general
secretary, described your government’s plan of radical economic
transformation as nothing but hot air. Your Minister, Blade
Nzimande said it was focused on advancing narrow black elite
accumulation and that radical is only a rhetorical statement. By
your own admission, Deputy President, your government is at war
with itself. As a presidential contender and leader of the ANC
and government civil war against the President, your President,
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how credible is your claim of cohesiveness in Team SA’s message
Davos really?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I don’t know, maybe I should say it in
Tshivenḓa because if I say it in Tshivenḓa maybe you will
understand a little bit more, but the only disadvantage is that
I might have to put you through some classes of Tshivenḓa so that
you can fully understand, precisely what I was saying.
What I was saying to you is that the message that we articulated
in Davos, as Team South Africa, wearing our colourful scarves,
clearly distinguishing ourselves from any other group and you
should really see this. When we go to Davos, we all wear our
colourful scarves and there is no other country that has claimed
that space like we have.
You know what? One year, I would like to go with you so that you
can join us and wear that scarf and realise that wearing that
scarf on itself just begins to make your message cohesive. It
just begins enable you to articulate a clear positive message
about South Africa. Now that’s what we had gone to do. We had
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not gone to Davos to articulate any other message. What we were
selling was your South Africa, our South Africa, our country,
our people. [Applause.] That’s what we were selling. We were not
selling a narrow vision of a particular party. We were selling a
vision of all of us. [Applause.] That’s what we were doing in
Davos. I would like you to respect that ...
Tshivenḓa:
MUFARISA MUPHURESIDENNDE: ... ngauri hezwi ro ya Davos, ri ya
Davos u rengisa shango ḽashu uri vhathu vha zwi pfesese zwavhuḓi
uri riṋe vhathu vha Afrika Tshipembe ro farana hani, ri khou
shumisana hani nahone ri khou ya phanḓa nga nḓila ifhio.
A ri khou ita hezwi zwa vhuḓabaḓaba zwi no fana na hezwi zwine na
khou amba ngazwo. [U fhululedza.] Ri khou ita zwithu zwi
bveledzelaho shango ḽa hashu phanḓa.
English:
... Now I have said it in Tshivenḓa. I am sure you understand it
better. Thank you. [Applause.]
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The SPEAKER: Hon members, I must report that the names that
followed ... I just happen to remember hon Macpherson has been
wiped off. So, there is somebody missing who came before the one
that I am going ... hon Esterhuizen. [Interjections.] Yes.
IsiXhosa:
Hayi, ndiyayazi ukuba igama lakho likhona Matiase kodwa
lisezantsi. Umntu oza kulandela emva kwesi sithethi ndiza
kusibiza ngohloniphekileyo, uDudley.
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon Deputy President, you said that in your
presentation in Davos that South Africa is open for business and
emphasised our foreign policy as the same. You just spoke about
moral standards in this country with socioeconomic and political
stability playing a major role and deciding factor to where
foreign investment is directed. Don’t you agree then that the
country’s foreign policy should reflect its own domestic policy?
My question sir, how can you sell South Africa as an open and a
credible leader in Africa when we can’t even guarantee the
physical safety of foreigners and their property, given the
perennial widespread violent incidents of xenophobia within our
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borders, you might say that this is law and order as well, but
this still reflects the image of government towards the foreign
nationals to the world. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I think we can all agree
that the events and the incidents of the past few days are
rather sad and these are incidents that we should not gloat
about. But what is clear is that South Africans are not
xenophobic. We are a people who are not xenophobic. We don’t
hate foreigners, in fact; we have opened our arms forever and in
a day to people from other countries just like they opened their
arms to us when we were pushed into exile. So, we have opened
our arms to them and where there has been criminal activity, we
are saying that the police must investigate that and it’s not
saying that foreigners are criminals and they get involved in
all manner of criminal activity.
So, we will continue as government to protect the lives,
property and the interest of people from other nations, just as
we expect them - foreign governments to protect the lives,
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property and the interest of South Africans, who are in other
countries.
So, what they expect of us, will also be done to their own
nationals. The South African government has been very clear on
this matter from the beginning. We as a government have been in
the forefront of preaching an antixenophobic message. We have
been in the forefront of advocating the protection of foreign
nationals.
Those foreign nationals who are involved in criminal activities
should be dealt with in accordance with our laws. We call upon
our people not to take the law into their own hands and attack
people from other countries. They must allow our police
services, our security forces to deal with the matter. We have
robust laws that are able to deal with people who get involved
in criminal activities. South Africa is a home for all who live
in it.
So, it was declared in our Freedom Charter. This government
lives up to what has been set out in our Freedom Charter because
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it anticipated that. Yes, we should become a home for all people
who live here, be they from other nations or be they South
African born. This is our home as much as it is their home as
well. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy President, the WEF’s future of jobs study
notes the Fourth Industrial Revolution now underway
characterised by fast pace technological progress combined with
other socioeconomic and demographic changes could mean a net
loss of over five million jobs in 15 major developed and
emerging economies, including South Africa.
Is government prioritising work needed to identify under depth
skills and education training to ensure that people who are
becoming redundant in their jobs due to technology takeover will
find themselves suitably prepared in new roles partnering with
the robotic workforce of the not too distance future? Are our
youth being adequately prepared for the reality of the works
space that they will enter pretty soon? Thank you.
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, it was quiet refreshing for
me to sit in a meeting in Davos with government and business
leaders and to listen to a leader of a global business talking
about the impact of the Fourth Industrial Revolution when he
said that, what concerns him more than being a keen participator
in the Fourth Industrial Revolution was the impact it is going
to have on jobs and on ordinary people. He was advocating that
as we push ahead with this Fourth Industrial Revolution, we
should at the same time put in place measures that are going to
protect people who are going to lose their jobs, to lose their
livelihood as a result of implementing the Fourth Industrial
Revolution. He was quiet passionate about it. He started
suggesting a number of measures such as re-education of people,
reskilling and making sure that they are familiarised with the
new era that is going to be given rise to by this new revolution
that is coming.
Let me say that this matter is being given attention in
government. We are giving this matter close attention through
our various training programmes to ensure that as technology
spreads, and as technological advancement happens to improve the
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lives of ordinary people, at the same time, we should not allow
technological advancement to get people out of their jobs or to
get to a point where they will not have other alternative jobs.
So, as we improve, we must make sure that we have some safety
net of training nature and a number of others to make sure that
they do get on with their lives with new skills; with new
experiences and that they must also be able to get new life
opportunities. So, that’s what we are working on and I am sure
that giving attention to all these will yield positive results.
Let me also say as I conclude that, the trade union movement is
also actively involved in these types of discussions because
they are concerned about their members losing their jobs. So, a
combination of business, government and labour in this is going
to leads to really good benefits that will make sure that the
Fourth Industrial Revolution does not waylay people and leading
to job losses. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: We now come to Question Five asked by the hon
Hlengwa. Hon Matiase, what’s the issue.
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Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Speaker, I pressed the button here.
The SPEAKER: Yes, as I said, your name was lower down than the
other names and we have taken four supplementary questions and
that is the cut-off.
Mr N S MATIASE: Madam Speaker, my question was about this
specific question.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Matiase, please take your seat and can we
go on to the question of hon Hlengwa and ask the hon deputy
President to answer.
Question 5:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the Ethics Code requires
that where a member of the executive holds any financial or
business interests which may give rise to a conflict of interest
in the performance of that member’s function, the member must
either dispose of such interests or place the administration of
the interest under the control of an independent or professional
person or agency. In order to comply with the Ethics Code in
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November 2014, I disposed off my shareholding in the Shanduka
Group, an investment holding which held a number of assets in
regulated sectors of our economy.
I advised the secretary of cabinet accordingly and released a
media statement outlining actions I took in this regard. With
regards to my assumption of the responsibilities that I was
given by the President, particularly with respect to the SA
Airways, SAA, I did not declare any possible conflict of
interest because there was none, there was no conflict of
interest to declare. I have no business dealings with SAA or any
other state-owned company. I have declared all my assets to the
Cabinet secretary and parliament as it is required by law. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Speaker, Deputy President, at the outset let me
say that there is nothing I hate more than fake news,
particularly fake news that brands against the national
interests. The allegations which the question is based on were
made by the youth league, so I am putting to you, hon President,
are you prepared to call out these lies and these fake news
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which seek to threaten in particular state-owned entities which
are very fragile at this point in time, and if such allegations
are made about them could very well cause instability in those
sectors and could eventually result in job losses.
Secondly, credit ranking agencies have cited political
instabilities as a major concern moving forward and such kind of
conduct will result in them not giving us favourable ratings.
So, I am putting it to you, hon Deputy President, an opportunity
to call out the youth league and to condemn this kind of
behaviour which seeks to threaten the national interest with
such lies to be peddled against yourself in the main but most
importantly, the national interest, threat to jobs and the
state-owned entities which are being brought into the mud which
they do not belong to. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Hlengwa, I am in the course of
engaging the ANC Youth League on this matter. We are in the
process of engaging each other on this. I have told them that
the matter they raised publicly was a lie, it was a fabrication
and as you say, fake news because there is no truth in the fact
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that I am conducting business with SAA or any other company and
I have said it very clearly, I did not leave business to come
into government service in order to conduct fraudulent business
in government. [Applause.] I did not do so. I hold the view that
if you want to make money, make money in business. Do not come
and make money dealing with government entities. [Applause.]
That is the view I hold.
As you know very well I was involved in business and I did not
leave because I failed as a businessman. I did not come here to
try and loot the state and loot state-owned enterprises. I did
not do that and I will never do so. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
Mr R A LEES: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President ...
IsiZulu:
... ngizocela nje into eyodwa kuwe ukuthi ungaphenduli
ngesiVenda, usithanda isiZulu ungaphendula ngaso. [Uhleko.]
English:
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The SA Airways has run at a loss of some R17.76 billion since Ms
Dudu Myeni was appointed as chairperson of the board. Ms Myeni’s
intervention over the airbus deal resulted in finance Minister
Nene being fired and replaced with the hon ―Now you see him, now
you don’t‖ Van Rooyen. [Laughter.] Ms Myeni has been found by
the Companies and Intellectual Properties Commission, CIPC, to
have contravened to sections of the Companies Act. Ms Myeni last
Saturday apparently spent the night in the presidential suite at
the luxury Oyster Box Hotel at a cost of R50 000.
[Interjections.] Would the Deputy President please tell us if he
believes that the reappointment of Ms Dudu Myeni as the SAA’s
board chair last year was not irrational?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I thin that we should be
looking at ...
IsiZulu:
... ufuna ngiyiphendule ngesiZulu?
English:
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We should be looking at the big picture here and the big picture
is that the good development which is part of our state-owned
enterprise, SOE, reform programme, is that the SAA board has
been reconstructed. We have new board members on that board who
are working together with Ms Dudu Myeni and they are trying
against very difficult odds to reposition SAA. SAA is a national
asset and all we should ever do ... [Interjections.] ... I want
you to listen, all we should ever do is to wish that board the
greatest of luck because we have outstanding South Africans on
that board who are working day and night supporting the
management team and they are executing a new strategy to
reposition SAA. Admittedly they are working in a very difficult
industry. The airline industry is one of the very challenging
and very difficult industries where you either make or lose
money depending on a whole number of variable factors and some
of those being the fuel cost and everything else. Let us spend
more time wishing them luck and egging them on and hoping and
wishing that they do succeed in everything that they do and if
you can say a prayer for SAA, say a prayer ...
IsiZulu:
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... uyithandazele i-SAA ukuthi ikwazi ukuqhubeka kahle
iphumelele ngale ndlela esifuna ukuthi iphumelele ngayo.
Ngiyabonga.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, good afternoon Deputy President,
now that your name has been cleared by your good self here today
and given the fact that SAA has a problem of some of the men who
fly airplanes been lured by China and being over R3.2 million
per annum as against what they get here in South Africa. What
steps are you going to take now that you have been cleared in
order to make sure that our pilots remain stable, do not fleece
SAA by making exorbitant demands for themselves, their wives as
well as their children to fly all over the world, free of
charge, That creates a big hole in the fiscus of that national
carrier. What steps then are you going to take to make sure that
this come to a screeching stop? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Filtane, one of the great things that
we are succeeding with in our country is not only to retain a
number of really outstanding pilots, if you like, of the older
generation, but it is how we are attracting young black South
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Africans into the profession of being pilots. I have had the joy
of meeting quite a number of them. I will tell you a very good
story, I was in an airplane and I was flown from Kimberly, on a
commercial flight, by a young South African girl from New
Brighton in Port Elizabeth. Her name is Oyama Matomela and she
is 24 years old. It was stormy weather and they invited me to
come into the cockpit. Her chief pilot said: I want you to see
how this young woman, 24 years old, from a township, she is now
able to fly a plane with 300 passengers. [Applause.]
It was the most unbelievable flight because it was stormy and
raining and this young woman took that plane off from Kimberly,
went through the stormy skies and landed us in Johannesburg in
rain and storms. I was in awe to see this young woman doing
precisely that. [Applause.] Now, are there many of them? There
aren’t many of them and what are we seeking to do as government?
We are starting a programme to do precisely that.
The other day I was also flown, and I hope I will not embarrass
Dr Nzimande by saying this. I was flown by his son in an SAA
flight from Johannesburg to Durban. He is a very young man. This
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is the future that beckons us. This is the future that is out
there for us on the horizon and these are the young people that
we have to nurture, we have to prepare for the future that
awaits them. This is how this country is succeeding and reaching
out for greatness. Whilst we are doing both things, trying to
keep those who are already in the system so that they can pass
their skills onto others and that is already happening.
In the air force, the President and myself are often flown by
young people, young black people who are now flying these very
big planes and they are the pride of our nation. So, there is a
future and we are going to make ensure that pilots in our
country increase by leaps and bounds because we need good and
loyal pilots who will not go off to work in China and a number
of other countries. Thank you for raising this because you took
me down memory lane, you spoke about something that I find very
touching when I see young people being very successful at an
intricate and difficult profession like being a pilot. Thank you
very much. [Applause.]
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Ms M O MOKAUSE: Speaker, deputy President, despite the fact that
your office rejected planes made by one of your own, the ANC
Youth League, that you own a certain portion in the Comair. We
are not concerned about that, we still believe as the EFF that
senior government leaders own shares in most of the
institutions. Our concern is the proliferation of business
ownership by senior government leaders and that escalates to
their families having influence in the South African government,
that of Duduzane Zuma who has great influence and the Guptas.
As a leader of government business in this House, have you ever
gone as far as engaging your President in those claims? Have you
ever went as far as engaging he President about the claims made
by the Deputy Minister of Finance regarding the Guptas having
afforded him an opportunity to be a Minister of Finance? Thank
you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that the issue of the ownership of
shares has two aspects to it and I think that we do need to
understand it. There is the issue of share ownership as part of
ones portfolio, say on shares that are traded on the stock
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exchange where you can buy and sell shares on an ongoing basis
in various companies because they offer a growth that you may
not get if you leave your money in the bank. Nearly all of us
here are shareholders in various companies through our pension
funds because our pension funds buy and sell shares. We should
not then be derogatory against people who may own a listed share
here and there which is listed on the Johannesburg Stock
Exchange because that is part of their investment management.
Then there is another side of it about owning business, say
people in authority owning business and the issue of the Code of
Ethics says that you need to declare your areas of conflict and
this often comes out when a person in a position of authority,
like a minister or myself, if you are going to own shares in a
regulated industry or company that operates in a regulated area.
That gives rise to conflict and that is why the Code of Ethics
says that you should declare it and either you sell it or is
managed by somebody else through a blind trust or whatever. Now,
all these are matter that we need to be aware of as Members of
Parliament and as public representatives and make sure that we
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are not caught up in all these things as we manage our own
investments.
I think that what we should not be doing is to be derogatory and
insulting without any basis or foundation, without any evidence.
[Applause.] We become accustomed to people hurling insults and
hurling derogatory statements without having any basis or
foundation. I thin we should base our statements on facts
because facts are what should regulate everything and after
analyzing the facts then we should regulate our own reaction and
behaviour to particular people.
The question that you raised, as I recall, those matters are
also now subject of review processes. They were looked into by
the Public Protector which involved the Deputy Minister of
Finance and all that and all those matter are in the process of
being handled by another institution. I would not want to try
and second guess that institution. Let that institution be given
the opportunity and the right to examine all that and in the end
come up with what the truthful position is. I thank you very
much.
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Question 6:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The final report
of the health ombud into the circumstances surrounding the
deaths of mentally-ill patients in Gauteng concluded that there
was prima facie evidence that certain officials, as well as
certain nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and some activities
within the project that violated the Constitution and
contravened the National Health Act and the Mental Health Care
Act. The report describes several instances of negligent and
reckless actions that contributed to the deaths of at least
94 mentally-ill patients. The report made several
recommendations to hold those responsible to account and to
ensure that such a tragedy should never occur again.
With regard to the relative powers and functions of the
different spheres of government, the report said that there is
an urgent need to review the National Health Act of 2003 and the
Mental Health Care Act of 2002 with a view to harmonise and to
bring alignment to different spheres of government.
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It also said that the centralisation of certain functions and
powers of the Mental Health Care Act must revert back to the
national Minister of Health. The full breadth of the ombud’s
recommendations is under consideration, including a review of
the National Health Act as well as the Mental Health Care Act.
The Minister of Health has already informed this House that he
has selected a review panel for this purpose.
The Constitution is very clear on the responsibilities of the
various spheres of government. For instance, it provides that
provinces and their executives are subject to the national
government’s decisions on policy governing health care. The
Constitution empowers national government to intervene in
provincial governments where necessary. These are some of the
elements of our constitutional architecture that will need to be
considered during the course of this review by the review panel
that the Minister has set up.
We would welcome any suggestions that the hon member, and indeed
many other members, may have on this matter to ensure that a
tragedy like the Esidimeni one does not happen again. If there
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are suggestions that can be brought to bear with regard to how
the functions and the competencies at national and provincial
levels can be well delineated so as to be able to take the
effect that they should take in order to save lives, we would
welcome those. I invite the hon member to come forward and
present any such suggestions if he has any.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, hon Speaker. Mr Deputy President,
we have gone through the recommendations by the ombudsman in
terms of those patients that may have died in Gauteng. However,
it’s exactly the point that I’m trying to make, not only in the
case of those people that have passed on in Gauteng in the
health sphere. If you look at it ... the limited powers vested
in Ministers and the national departments ... let me give you
another example. If you take Woodstock in Cape Town for example,
our people are being forcefully removed to make way for what we
call development. Now, the national departments are not able to
intervene in this. If you look at the people in Philippi who
have just been successful in that court matter, there are
already indications that the City of Cape Town will ignore that
court decision.
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Now the question is, can we as national government make
amendments so that more powers are given to Ministers and
national departments in order to protect the interests of our
people, especially where certain political parties are in
control and will abuse their power? The last example I want to
give you ... we talk about the limited powers of the Minister of
Co-operative Governance. If you look at the corruption in the
Knysna Municipality, which is being protected by either the
member of the executive council, MEC, in the area ... I am
therefore suggesting, can we make the necessary amendments at
some stage to give greater powers so that we can intervene and
protect our people? [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. I think it will be
safe to say that having traversed this constitutional journey
over a period of a full 22 years ... 23 years now, we are
entitled to sit back and reflect on the efficacy of our
constitutional architecture and see where the Constitution
hamstrings us from having effective government that is going to
benefit our people.
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When we negotiated this constitutional dispensation that we
have, many people were concerned and they were fearful that we
could end up with a situation where national government becomes
so powerful and so overbearing that it will over-ride the
interests of people at a provincial, regional and local level.
The truth of the matter is that many of us have seen how
national government seeks and tries everything to advance the
interests of all our people in all four corners of our country.
There is nothing suspicious that national government does to
undermine any part of our country, and the experiences that we
are having now where the competencies that have been given to
provinces prevent ... some of them prevent national government
from taking effective action to the benefit of our people on a
uniform or universal basis calls for a dialogue that we as South
Africans should have. We should sit back and say, does this
provision serve us as South Africans well from a constitutional
point of view but more importantly from a government efficiency
point of view. If it is found that it doesn’t serve us as well,
then we should be strong enough, and man and woman enough, to
amend those provisions.
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When it comes to health, the reason that the Minister of Health
has instituted a review panel in this regard is because he has
found that it hamstrings him from executing a national mandate
of ensuring that all South Africans lead healthy lives. So the
reason has come to the fore and we now need to sit back and have
robust and intelligent debates that could lead to an amendment
of the architecture that we have, and there should be no
suspicions that national government is trying to abrogate unto
itself all the powers to the disadvantage of provinces or local
government. This in the end is what co-operative governance
should be about. Co-operative governance should be about how all
sectors of government work together to advance the interests of
our people.
Dr W G JAMES: Madam Speaker, by any objective measure the
Western Cape takes great care with the mentally infirm and its
psychiatric patients, including those who are resident at Groote
Schuur Estate I may add. I would like to ask the Deputy
President to check with Monitoring and Evaluation in his own
office.
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My Question to the Deputy President is this. Sir, would you
consider replicating the DA model in ANC-governed provinces? I
ask this Question because why on earth would any rational person
escalate functions to the national Department of Health when it
cannot spend its National Health Insurance, NHI, budget; when it
was found by the Auditor-General’s office to be heading to
further rounds of stock-outs; when it is incapable of fixing
broken hospitals; where it is incapable of building clinics on
scale; and where it tolerates dysfunctional health professional
and nursing councils?
Deputy President, to prevent death, your party must clearly fix
Gauteng Health as recommended by Dr Makgoba and must fix Health
in every ANC province, or believe you me the voters will fix it
for you come 2019. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon James, I missed your reference to
Groote Schuur Estate. I know of no Groote Schuur Estate; I know
Rondebosch. Anyway, be that as it may, you and I can have a
discussion about that. However, on the more important issue that
you raised, I think you will admit that what has been put out
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from a policy point of view with regard to the NHI is one of the
most outstanding policy positions that this country has ever
seen with regard to health. When the NHI is fully implemented
... and we will admit that it is going to go through its baby
steps and there will be hits and misses right now. Over the
weekend I went to the Secunda area in Mpumalanga and we opened a
brand new clinic. It’s an NHI-type clinic which is state of the
art and which incorporates the new information system which is
going to be implemented right across the country. It is a clinic
of the future.
We are going to be replicating that type of clinic of the future
throughout the country. When the Minister of Health has an
opportunity to answer Questions he will be able to outline to
you precisely the steps that his Department of Health is taking.
When this government took over health it took over a fragmented
health system; a broken health system; a health system that
abused our people right throughout the country; and a health
system that was so dangerous to the lives of our people. Now
this Minister is repairing precisely the mess that was left to
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this country by the past misrulers of our country and the health
process is now underway.
Today this Health Department is saving lives. A total of
3,4 million people are on antiretrovirals, ARVs, and this is
being dispensed by this Health Department. Where in the past
hundreds of thousands of people were dying every year, this
Health Department has made sure that our life expectancy has
ticked up to, I think, about 62 years now. It’s 62 years,
whereas in the past when this government took over it was in the
fifties.
Please watch how the improvements are happening in our country
and, mark my words, these improvements are happening
countrywide. They are not happening in one province. The
challenge that this Minister has is a national challenge. It’s
not a challenge that is limited to one province. The
responsibility of making sure that the health of our people is
safeguarded is on the shoulders of the national Health
Department and it is doing a reasonably good job under very
trying circumstances.
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The NHI is in its pilot stage. It is being implemented. Diseases
such as tuberculosis, TB, are being focused on like a laser.
Soon we are going to have World TB Day and we are going to be
announcing precisely what we are going to be doing when it comes
to TB. So, NHI is underway, and whether you like it or not it is
here to stay and it is going to be implemented. Thank you very
much. [Applause.]
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Thank you very much, Speaker and Deputy
President. I think at the very heart of the Esidimeni crisis was
a lack of leadership, maladministration and recklessness, and
because of these exact same reasons we are now facing another
national crisis and that’s the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa,
grant payout crisis. It will not only affect the lives of
700 vulnerable South Africans but it will affect the lives of
17 million vulnerable South Africans.
In 2014 your government was told by the Constitutional Court
that the current contract that you have with Cash Paymaster
Services, CPS, and Net1 Universal Electronic Payment System
Technologies Inc is unlawful. They gave you until 1 April 2017
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to correct this. In full breach of her oath of office, the
Minister of Social Development did nothing and now with a month
to go we’ve got no plan ... absolutely no plan to pay grants ...
absolutely no plan.
Deputy President, we have seen no leadership on this matter and
I think today as leader of government business you must tell us
why we have allowed Minister Dlamini to show her complete
disregard for the Constitutional Court. She’s in fact gone
rogue. We don’t know where she is. Deputy President, we want to
know from you why we are again putting the lives of the most
vulnerable citizens at risk and what will you personally do to
avoid a national ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Your time has expired, hon member. Hon member, your
time has expired. Hon Deputy President?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon member, one of
the really good things about our democracy is that it allows for
us to be able to raise matters of national interest like you are
and demonstrate our concern about some of these matters.
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In doing so we should also be willing to listen precisely to the
steps that are being taken to try and mitigate the challenges
and the problems that we have. The Sassa matter is being
addressed. It is being addressed ... [Interjections.] ... and
the Armageddon that ...
The SPEAKER: Order! Order.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for your protection, hon
Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Proceed Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Armageddon that you are talking about
will be avoided. We will make sure that those 17 million people
in our country that rely on these payouts, grants, child grants
and old age pensions do get their pay. We are fully aware of the
Constitutional Court’s requirement of having to go back there
and that is underway. That is being addressed. We are going to
make sure that the wheels do not come off and that we do indeed
address this matter. When we do we will be willing and prepared
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... the Minister will be willing and prepared to come back here
to address this matter, and outline the steps that are being
taken and that are going to be taken. That much I can tell you
will happen and this matter will not be allowed to go to the
wall.
Dr S S THEMBEKWAYO: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Deputy
President, the health ombudsman’s report details that the
removal of mental patients from Life Esidimeni to the 27 centres
which were not properly registered was comparable to an ―auction
cattle market‖, that some of the centres were ―like
concentration camps‖ and that the Gauteng Department of Health
was unable to distinguish between the highly specialised nonstop
professional care requirements and a business opportunity. The
deaths of the patients have everything to do with the
government’s neglect which is seen as normal across the public
health system.
What specific actions must be taken to bring those who caused
the deaths of the patients to account and what is the Deputy
President doing to restructure the public health system to
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ensure that it responds to the health needs of our people — the
people of South Africa?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I can
say without any equivocation that ever since this incident
occurred the Minister of Health has on a day and night basis
been working on this matter. If there is anything that is top of
mind to him right now it is how our country and our people get
over this debacle of Esidimeni; how we ensure that those who are
affected are given support and care; how we prevent this matter
from ever happening again; but more importantly, how the
recommendations of the health ombudsperson are implemented.
There is a list of things that Prof Malegapuru Makgoba came up
with that are currently being implemented. The Minister is in
the process of doing so on a daily basis, and he briefs me and
he briefs the President on an ongoing basis about the steps that
they are taking.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the care and the scrutiny that
the Minister is subjecting this whole problem to is going to
lead to something that will finally be positive so that this
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thing never ever happens again. He has his director-general
scouring throughout the length and breadth of the country,
making sure that it does not happen in other provinces. He has
his officials on their toes working on this matter. If there’s
anything I can assure you about it then it’s that the Minister
is giving close attention to this matter.
When he does get an opportunity to appear before us here as the
National Assembly he will be able to outline further steps and
new steps that he is taking. If there are challenges, as there
will always be in life ... if there are challenges, new
challenges or whatever, he will be open enough to come and
disclose them here and also outline to us the steps that he is
taking.
So, let us give him support. Let us give him all the help that
we can, rather than criticise him and browbeat him to the ground
because he is doing a good job under very, very difficult
circumstances. [Applause.]
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The SPEAKER: That concludes Questions to the Deputy President. I
thank the hon Deputy President.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: That concludes the business for the day.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker? Madam Speaker?
[Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: The House is adjourned.
The House adjourned at 17:01.
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