Hansard: NA: Unrevised Hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 23 Nov 2016
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 23 November 2016 Take: 1
WEDNESDAY, 23 NOVEMBER 2016
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_______
The House met at 15:03.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER
|
Start of Day
RECOGNITION OF MEMBERS WISHING TO SPEAK
(Ruling)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, during proceedings on Tuesday, 22 November, I indicated that I would rule later on matters raised in the House. I wish to deal with three issues. The first one is the recognition of members wishing to speak.
Rule 92 provides, amongst others, that—
... a member may raise a point of order at any time during the proceedings of the House, in terms of the procedure prescribed in Rule 66.
Rule 66 provides, amongst others, that—
... no member may interrupt another member whilst speaking, except —
(a) to call attention to a point of order, subject to Rule 92, or a question of privilege ...
These Rules must be exercised with due regard to Rule 79, which provides that “a member may speak only when recognised by the presiding officer”.
Members would be aware that sometimes we have situations in the House where members would approach the microphones and attempt to address the Chair at the same time. In other instances, this happens even whilst the Chair is busy addressing the House. All of this is in breach of Rules 67 and 79, amongst others.
In an effort to maintain order, the presiding officers asked members to raise their hands in order to draw the attention of the presiding officer. Members have complained that this approach is not applied evenly. Members have also indicated that it is sometimes not possible for the presiding officers to see all the members when they raise their hands, especially members at the back. We take these observations seriously and, as presiding officers, we have reflected on it.
We have therefore decided that if a member wishes to raise a point of order, that the member should stand until he or she is recognised by the Chair. Whilst the Rules do not prescribe a procedure in these instances, we are confident that members standing to raise a point of order will assist in the smooth operation of the House. If there is a need to refine this approach, we are open to that, and the matter can be discussed in the appropriate forums.
The SPEAKER
|
The SPEAKER
SWITCHING OFF OF MICROPHONES
(Ruling)
The SPEAKER: The second matter is switching off of microphones. On the issue of microphones, I do take the point that has been raised about the microphones and therefore, as presiding officers, we always endeavour to inform hon members before switching off their microphones.
In this instance, the hon members are correct that the member should have been informed. We do want to urge members, though, not to cite the Rules selectively. The Rule pertaining to microphones must be considered in the context of the other Rules that are meant to deal with maintenance of order. In this regard, I do think that the matter of the control of microphones needs more attention, especially in the context of the circumstances that tend to prevail in this House.
The SPEAKER
|
The SPEAKER
BARRING OF DOORS DURING VOTING
(Ruling)
The SPEAKER: The third matter is the barring of doors during voting. The Rule that provides that the doors are to be barred during voting has always been implemented by having officers block the entrances until voting is done. It has since come to the attention of the presiding officers that some members have pushed their way into the Chamber after the doors were barred.
Hon members, I have since directed that the intention of this Rule be achieved by locking the doors. This has some logistical implications, but as soon as these have been dealt with, the directive will be implemented. In other words, we do not yet have keys to all the doors. We have five doors, so we have to sort that out. One key has been used to lock all the doors. As soon as those logistics have been sorted out, we will be able to implement that Rule. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER
|
The SPEAKER
QUESTION SESSION TO PRESIDENT SCHEDULED IN TERMS OF RULE 140
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, today we have a question session to the President, scheduled in terms of Rule 140 that provides that the President must answer Questions for Oral Reply in this House at least once per quarter per year. The National Assembly Programming Committee has scheduled Questions for Oral Reply to the President for today, as required by the Rules.
I remind members that we have had numerous occasions when certain members attempted to prevent the President from addressing the House on these occasions. Amongst others, these were on 21 August 2014, 18 June 2015, 17 March 2016, 4 May 2016, 17 May 2016, and 13 September 2016 when we had either Questions for Oral Reply to the President or debates involving the President.
The members concerned have, amongst others, claimed that they do not recognise the President as a legitimate President. Hon members, constitutionally, we have a President of the Republic. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It is indeed the constitutional duty of the President to account to this House, and he does this by, amongst others, answering your Questions for Oral Reply once per quarter. He is here today to do exactly that.
I therefore appeal for members’ co-operation for today’s question session to proceed without interruption so that the House can conduct its Business of the Day. I thank you. [Applause.]
The only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the President. Hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I address you in terms of Rule 26 of the National Assembly Rules?
The SPEAKER: Go ahead.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, you will recall that the Leader of the Opposition wrote to you yesterday a letter indicating to you that, given the events of the House yesterday, it would be inappropriate for you to chair the session. [Interjections.] I don’t want to have to raise my voice, you see.
The SPEAKER: Proceed, hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: However, I don’t want be accused of shouting, you see, so as long as you can hear me, that is the main thing.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members. Let’s listen to the hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much for your response to the Leader of the Opposition, and we are very encouraged by the paragraph in which you confirm that it is your duty to act fairly, impartially, and ensure that the rights of all parties, including minority parties, are protected. So, we thank your for acknowledging that.
We are also acknowledging the fact that there is a process that has been embarked upon this morning, arising from the Chief Whips’ Forum and the Joint Rules Committee, and we will participate in those proceedings until their conclusion. We would however urge you, Madam Speaker, today, to be mindful of the words that you have expressed in this letter and ensure that the President is held properly accountable by this House and that you respect not only the President, because he is also a constitutional office bearer, but also the Leader of the Opposition and other Members of Parliament who also are constitutional office bearers. I would ask that their rights are upheld in this House today, and the President is not unduly protected. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, let’s again say that we have confidence in your ability and capacity to run affairs of this House. [Applause.] We know that you continue the business of this House without any bias to any of the parties in this House. [Interjections.]
We are also in agreement with the process that has been started by the Joint Rules Committee on addressing whatever complaints might arise from this House from time to time. Thank you for running this wonderful House in the manner you run it. [Interjections.] Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Chief Whip. Hon members, as I started to say, the only item on today’s Order Paper is questions addressed to the President, and I would like to remind members that you may press the “talk” button on your desks if you wish to ask a supplementary question. The first question has been asked by the hon C T Msimang. I call upon the hon the President. [Applause.]
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Speaker, I am raising this point of order that you can at least warn the President that his unfaithfulness to the Constitution and his disobedience to the Constitution affect the decorum of this House. [Interjections.] I urge you, Speaker, that you warn him that by disobeying our Constitution, he affects the decorum of this House. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Plouamma ...
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I can’t even talk! I can’t even talk! These people ... I have a right to be here! I am protecting my Constitution. I don’t care what you do.
The SPEAKER: Hon Plouamma, don’t try and replace people who are not in this House right now. We proceed with the question session. [Interjections.]
QUESTION 19 / /Mia / TAKE ENDS AT 15:15
|
QUESTIONS: ORAL REPLY BY THE PRESIDENT
Question 19:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon speaker, the government is committed to ensure affordable higher education for all and to support the poor and working class students to access higher education and training. The government is supporting the view that the university fees should be regulated and be made available to all. No student should be denied access to education on the basis that their families are not able to afford the fees.
IsiZulu: 15:15:30
NjengoHulumeni, sifuna zonke izingane eziphuma emakhaya ampofu zikwazi ukufunda emanyuvesi nasemakolishi emisebenzi. Asiphikisani neze nezicelo zabafundi ukuthi abasizwe uma imali ingekho yokufunda. Miningi imizamo eyenziwayo ukunezezela kulesi sikhwama sokusiza abafundi esikoleni, i-National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS.
English:
After consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, including the elected student leaders, the government announced that all the students at the universities, technical and vocational training education colleges that are from the families with an income of up to R600 000, will experience a zero percent fee increment in 2017. [Applause.] This includes the students who come from the poor and the so-called missing middle households with an annual income of between R120 000 and R600 000.
The consultation follows the announcement by the Minister of Higher Education and Training on 19 August 2016 that, the university fee adjustments for the 2017 academic year should be capped at 8% of the 2015 fees. There is no institution of higher learning that has announced a fee increment of more than 8%. The government will carry the fee increase through a gap funding grant on behalf of all the poor working class and the missing middle families. [Applause.]
Early this year, I established the Commission of Inquiry into Higher Education and Training on the feasibility of a fee-free higher education and training in South Africa. Today I’m releasing the Commission’s interim report to the public. The report covers the three following areas: Firstly, an overview by stakeholders of the terms of reference of the Commission. Secondly, post-school education and training in South Africa and thirdly, the funding of institutions of higher learning and training, and understanding their operational costs.
The Commission has not yet addressed the five areas which are: The nature, accessibility and effectiveness of student funding by the government, the private sector and the foreign aid; the meaning and content of fee-free higher education and training; alternative sources of funding; the social, economic and financial implications of fee-free higher education and training and the feasibility of providing fee-free higher education and training, and the extent of such provision. The final report is expected by 30 June 2017. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Speaker, let me thank Mr President for the reply. Indeed, this is the position that the government has been holding since the students started marching and even destroying properties at the universities. My concern is whether the students are buying into this offer? I’m asking this because they keep on chanting the slogan of, Fees must Fall.
My question therefore, Mr President, is: If they persist with this demand during the registration time, will this not lead to further destabilisation of university education? Secondly, what will be the government’s position be on this matter? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I agree that the students demonstrated their determination to get the answer they wanted that we should all agree that there will be a free-fee education system in the institutions of higher learning. But of course, as you know, the government has engaged the students on this issue. You will recall that, what led to the establishment of the Commission to look at the feasibility of a free education was as the result of the protest that took place towards the end of last year.
It was as the result of the meeting that the President called of all the stakeholders to discuss the matter of free education, because it was not going to be simple to say that, since the students are making this call, we should then just agree with what they are demanding when the feasibility of a fee-free education system had not been investigated in the first instance. The Commission was therefore established because of this reason. The conclusion was then taken that there will be no fee rise in 2016.
Since the Commission had not completed its work and we have not moved or met to discuss whether it will be possible to address the 2017 fee issue, the students just went on with their demonstrations. Of course, once that happened, it created a difficult situation to negotiate. It also gave an impression that we were doing nothing about the matter that the students were raising, and yet we were doing something. Of course, the government was concerned about the protests that turned to be violent, leading also even to the loss of life.
It is for this reason that the government had established a task team to immediately engage about the situation, with an aim to stop violence. But also to talk to the students as well as all the stakeholders to indicate that, what was done by the students was not correct to enable the government to move into the manner it wished to move. The fact that the students were demanding the government to agree on what they were protesting for, could not happen, because it was not an easy situation. It does not mean that, if the students are not paying fees, then everything would be free.
What it means is that, the government in particular, will have to budget and pay for what the students are not paying for. So, the matter needed to be looked at in different ways. Indeed, the task team met with the students and a number of stakeholders to discuss the matter. I think that the meeting was fruitful because at the end, it was agreed that the students should go back to class and learn in order to write the examinations. The reason why there were announcements thereafter by the Minister, was to say that the matter is been considered.
At the end, we will have to look at the report of the Commission to see what provisions it brings to address the question of the students on the free education. There is no one view on the matter of free education, just like that. What will then come as the solution? We are saying that everybody should wait because there are other processes that are taking place which, once the Commission has concluded its report, we’ll have to look at it, and perhaps some of these initiatives will help the Commission to sharpen its report.
As to what the government will do? I just explained what it did this time around. All we’re appealing is that, the matter is being considered. Let us then be patient, and wait and see what happens. One of the things that the government has committed to is to say that there will be no child who will not go to school because the family has got no money to take such child to school. That in itself is important for the students who are protesting. [Applause.]
This is an indication that we are not just ignoring the matter, but that we want to get the lasting solution to the problem. As you know, education is our priority number one. We are not in conflict in terms of whether the students should go back to their place of learning or not. It’s a question of how we deal with the question of the costs. What made the students protest as they made their point? It is because the fees were rising all the time? This, therefore, made it impossible for them to pay the fees. In a sense, that made an exclusion of the poor. That is what made them to demonstrate.
Now that the matter is being handled by the government and everybody, the possibility to come with the agreed solution, is very high. We are therefore making a call that people should be very patient, because the matter is being considered and indeed the solution will come. Repeating what I’ve just said here, we now saying, 2017 will also be dealt with, given the fact that the report has not been completed by the Commission. So, the matter has not yet been finalised. But I can assure you, there is no child that would not go to school because of lack of funds. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Prof B BOZOLLI: Mr President, your staff in a dramatic last minute twitter dash five minutes ago, released the much awaited interim report that you’ve just mentioned. We are disappointed in the findings of the report. It’s only eight pages long, but we are not surprised. This Commission was a set up as a stop to students’ protests and appears to be not really serious and there are no experts on it.
The interim findings simply say, there is no enough money, and lots of work is needed on finding more. We knew all of that! Mr President, how do you plan on handling the huge wave of student protests which will inevitably happen next year as no solution will be found in time for the next round of fee increases in July 2017? Will you follow the recommendation of Mr Gwede Mantashe to close the universities for months on end when the riots begin to teach students a lesson? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I thought that I’ve just explained as I was talking here about the actions that the government has taken. I also dealt with the year 2017 that, there will be no child who will not go to school because they don’t have the money. This has been said precisely because the Commissioner has not completed his job. I therefore cannot judge the Commission on the basis of his preliminary report. We are waiting to hear the final report of the Commission.
I also said that, there are other initiatives that are contributing towards the final report. So, I think that it will be not correct to start debating about the report that is not yet been completed, we have not yet seen it and as you indicated, it did not involve the experts. Of course, people could hold their views about these matters. What the government has done is to take this matter very seriously and that’s why, we are ready to deal with 2017.
I don’t think that if we deal with 2017 whilst the report is being completed, by ensuring that no child stays out of school, it will cause protests. The students know that they will be able to go to school as they did in 2016, because the government taking a responsible position. I therefore don’t think that we can then debate that issue. I’ve just said, since the Commission has not finished the report, the government will have to take over the year 2017. So, why is there a problem on this issue? Why is there a question concerning that? Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Madam Speaker, let me first say, good afternoon, hon President ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Proceed, hon September!
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Hon President, it seems that I must not greet you. May I firstly ask you, what message do you have for the students who defied all odds by having confidence in the steps that the government has taken and have gone to write the exams? What message do you have for them?
Secondly, the National Development Plan, NDP, sets out very clearly all the different aspects that the government has to do and which many from this House have adopted, in any event. It spells out very clearly that, to build a technical capacity in education requires political consensus, and that there should be a national education pact ideally mobilised by the President.
Hon President, what progress is being made to help build consensus in this country and, may you inform this House, what steps are being taken in that regard? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank the students who at a given time appreciated what was being done nationally, not just by the government only, but by all the stakeholders that pleaded with them to go back to school to write their examinations. I would like to thank them and all the students who finally went back to school. What they did is very important for the future of the country because, it is their education that tells us that we are looking upon our future as the area that once we get on it, we will be ready to make a meaningful contribution to our country.
It will also be as a result of us having had the young people getting skills and empowered. So, we thank them very much. At the same time, with regards to what is happening now, I think that there is a general consensus that education must not be disrupted; it must be given an opportunity to take place. If there are problems, we should find ways and means of addressing those problems. There are other initiatives. Leaving aside the Commission, I think that many people have taken initiatives as individuals and in groups to commit in finding a solution.
I think that all of us are working towards finding a common solution which will assist the country. There is also hard work going on, even if it’s not necessarily reported in general. I’m confident that we will come to the consensus as the country, because we all say that education is priority number one. So, I want to encourage all those that are participating; who are also spending time to help and contributing towards finding a solution. I’m sure that in due course, we will all accept what will come as a final solution.
What is good about it is that the students themselves are participating in what could be done going forward? I don’t think that we will fail, particularly because people might have seen that, really protesting and burning the very same schools doesn’t make a good sense. We want a free education, but we burn the institutions, this is not logical. These are matters that are being discussed and I’m sure that we will reach consensus. Thank you.
Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Speaker, my follow up question to Mr President is, are there any proper plans in place for 2017 to determine whether a student comes from a poor household or not, because this seems to be a big challenge. Thank you very much.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I’ve actually repeated this. In all the answers that I’ve given I have said so. Perhaps for the benefit of the member, yes, there are plans as I’ve said that the government is certain that there will be no child that will remain outside school premises; they will all go to school and continue learning whilst we are waiting for a final report. It is the government that will take care of those plans. Certainly, the plans are there. Thank you.
QUESTION 20 / EKS/VW (Zul) [24/11/2016 10:14] / TAKE ENDS AT 15:39
|
QUESTION 19
Question 20:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as cabinet and the Presidency has publicly stated on numerous occasions before cabinet appointed the Ministers of Finance, Labour and Mineral Resources to open a constructive engagement with the banks on the matter of the closure of bank accounts, the team reported back to the cabinet. No other mandate was given to this team of Ministers. As we have stated before, the statement released by Minister Zwane does not represent the views of government and cabinet. [Interjections.] I reprimanded the Minister for the remarks and he apologised.
You will remember that when I was answering questions here on this matter, I said that I will engage the Minister and I did and this matter is now closed. The Minister has apologised. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker, thank you Mr President, on 02 September 2016 you told the nation, I agree with what you have just said, that the statement made by Minister Zwane was not representing Presidency, the cabinet or government and it is unfortunate. However, five days later, on 07 September Minister Zwane said in this House:
The Inter-Ministerial Committee made five recommendations to the cabinet. Four of the recommendations were approved and one was referred to the President for further consideration as it was not within the peer view of cabinet to take a decision on that matter.
What is the status of this recommendation which was referred to you as reported by the hon Minister?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, that recommendation is under consideration by the President. Thank you Madam Speaker. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Thank you Madam Speaker. Mr President I heard what you say that the matter is now closed but banking will always remain a voluntary and a private relationship between the bank and the client and it can only be addressed by the parties concerned. Madam Speaker, neither Oakbay Investments nor the family that runs that company have made public the real reasons the banks for closing their accounts and they were informed under the confidential bank-client relationship act.
Hon President, banks are subject to supervision by the South African Reserve Bank and as a service provider and also to the National Consumers Commission. If any client feels that they were treated unfairly in anyway they can report that to these bodies, which never happened. The simple fact is that Oakbay Investments never complained or reported any irregularities or any nature to these bodies as they did not want the reasons made public.
The SPEAKER: Do you have a question hon member? Your minute is over now.
Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Hon President I want you to agree then and with respect to your position Sir that it is not yours neither the Minister of Mineral Resources’ place to break this confidential reality act unless you were party to the original contract. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I do not think that there is anyone who questions the confidentiality between the client and the bank. I think many of us here deal with the banks generally and there is nothing that becomes a national concern. The difference that you must make is, if a number of banks act in a same way simultaneously, not one and or two banks, including some financial institutions, to any ordinary person and that is not an ordinary act. It suggests that there is something. The banks cannot act together on the same manner in the same way. It gives a feeling that there is something going on here. [Interjections.]
Now, if you are a government which intervenes in many things if it believes it is putting the image of the country into some problems. Bear in mind that the government has always continued to ask for private sector to invest, including the foreign investors. If we were sitting at the level of government and you see an action of this nature highly publicised, you have to say what will the investors out there think of coming to invest in South Africa if they think that the bank can willy nilly act in a manner that suggest collusion about the economy of your country – as a government you cannot sit and say I am doing nothing. [Interjections.] It was therefore absolutely correct because if the investors do not come here because they fear the actions of the banks, the country will say what the government is doing. We therefore needed to know what is happening as a government. There is no law that says you cannot do so.
You are talking about the bank and the individual. Here there was an action by a number of banks at the same time. It suggested there is something untoward here and as government we wanted to interact constructively with the banks and find out what is this that they are doing. Where has this come from? That was the reason. There is no government that can just sit and do nothing because any other company that would want to come to South Africa would say, sorry I am not going there because if the banks are angry with me, they would collude and act together.
We wanted to look into that matter and get to the bottom of it because we cannot say in any other time and any business person will be dealt with and the government will just stand and look. [Interjections.] We are not dealing with the company but the actions of the bank. That is what we are dealing with and we will continue to do so. [Applause.]
We are responsible because we are a government of this country. There is nothing that sounds very suspicious that we are going to look at and do nothing. That is a reason why we acted on this one. Thank you Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr D J MAYNIER: Mr President, if there is one Minister who should be sprayed with doom, it is the Minister of Mineral Resources Mosebenzi Zwane for issuing a midnight statement on behalf of the Guptas in his personal capacity calling for an inquiry into the banks. [Laughter.] Why the Minister was simply reprimanded and not fired and why was the letter of reprimand not tabled in this Parliament?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Any President in the world look at the gravity of the matter and the conclusion would not produce the same kind of action. There is nothing abnormal here. [Interjections.] Ministers are reprimanded and at times Ministers could be taken out of their jobs. It depends on what has been done. So, we did the right thing. We reprimanded the Minister and the Minister apologised. What else do you need? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you hon Speaker. Mr President I think you have actually responded to a previous question. Let me just say Mr President, do you believe that the closure of the bank accounts by several financial institutions was prematurely, given the fact that Oakbay Investment have not been proven to have violated any banking regulation to date? Mindful of the fact that millions of Rands are flowing into this country into local bank accounts by political parties to destabilise this country. [Interjections.] Mr President, is this not an attempt by these imperialists to dictate and control the financial sector that they have done pre-apartheid days? [Interjections.] Thank you Madam.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you Madam Speaker. That is precisely the reason why government cannot ignore such an action. The action looks suspicious and as government responsible to govern this country will certainly have to investigate this. We started very politely by sending a team to meet the banks to investigate what is happening. The banks did not say these are the faults that this company has done or what led to our actions. So, up to now we do not know. We have laws in this country. If, let us say, any company violates the laws, there are enforcement institutions that you will report to. Just to stand willy nilly and close simultaneously a number of banks as well other financial institutions. It does not look innocent. That is a problem we have. Thank you Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
QUESTION 21 / LN / TAKE ENDS
|
QUESTION 20
Question 21:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, our economic diplomacy strategy is informed by the National Development Plan, NDP, and is designed to promote inclusive growth and the creation of jobs and economic opportunities for our people. We plan to achieve this by enhancing our ability to attract foreign and local investment, improve our export capabilities and attract tourists to the country, among others.
It is for this reason that we promote the Nine Point Plan, [Interjections.] which is designed to promote growth in areas including energy, manufacturing, transport, telecommunications, [Interjections.] [Applause.] water, tourism, the ocean economy, mining, agriculture and the Industrial Policy Action Plan. [Applause.] It also includes work such as managing workplace conflict. As correctly stated by the hon member, our economy is integrated into the global economy, which makes South Africa vulnerable to occurrences around the world.
We are strengthening our diplomatic ties with our partners in the world so that when they make decisions that have serious economic consequences for us, they can do so with sufficient appreciation of the implications of their decisions for our economy. In this regard, our participation in global institutions such as the G20, Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, BRICS, and the World Economic Forum remain critical and central to our strategy.Renewed efforts are also being made to further enhance economic co-operation with various countries individually in Africa and other regions.
The economic cluster is studying the implications of the so-called Brexit for our trade relations with the United Kingdom, which the hon member has mentioned as an example. Let me emphasise that our relations with the United Kingdom remain very strong and cordial. We will continue to work on deepening these relations further.
We will continue to directly promote stronger economic co-operation, while working to cushion our economy as well as from any adverse effects. Ultimately, the unity of all sectors and all our people will enable us to deal with global economic challenges that arise. I thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
IsiZulu: 15:57:50
Mnu B A RADEBE: Somlomo noMongameli, ngiyabonga ngempendulo osinike yona. Kuyathokozisa kakhulu ukuthi umbuso waseNingizimu Afrika ukhuluma ngokuthi zonke izinhlaka zomphakathi kumele zibambisane, okufaka phakathi osomabhizinisi, abasebenzi, umbuso kanye nomphakathi ukuthi siphakamise umnotho waseNingizimu Afrika. Mongameli, kungahle kwenzeke ukuthi umsebenzi omuhle owenzayo ucekeleke phansi. Nasi isibonelo, njengoba sikhuluma manje, amawayini waseNingizimu Afrika ahlonishwa umhlaba wonke. Njengoba sikhuluma manje, kwelaseYurophu lama wayini ayasuswa emashelufini ngenxa yokuthi umphakathi waseMazweni ase-Nordic ubone ukuthi abasebenzi baseNingizimu Afrika, ikakhulukazi la eNtshonalanga Kapa emafamini wewayini, baphethwe njengezigqila.
Baba, umbuso wakho uzokwenzani ukucikelela ukuthi osomabhizibinisi nabalimi baphatha abasebenzi kahle ukuze izinto zethu zizokwazu ukuhlonishwa nangaphandle? Ngiyabonga baba. [Ihlombe.]
UMONGAMELI WEREPHABHULIKI: Somlomo, ngibonga umbuzo futhi ngiyakhumbula ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile lesishayamthetho liyazi ukuthi sikhiphe inkulumo egxeke kakhulu lesi simo esibonakale senziwa yilabo abaphethe amafamu. Isimo esibonise isihluku nenzondo kanye nokungahloniphi isiqu somunye umuntu, ukuthi umuntu athi ephila bese efakwa ebhokisini labafileyo. Ngiye ngabona ukuthi sengathi kusekhona ukulukhuni kuleli zwe. Njengabantu abenza amabhizinisi, lokhu kusho ukuthi abasincedi kulokho uma kunamhlanje ngoba phela sekukhona izinto ezithwebulayo. Nanoma ungathi wenza into, abantu bakhipha imishini emakhukhwini bakushuthe bese bayithumela kulo lonke izwe. Le nto isiphoxe kakhulu ezweni, lokhu kusho ukuthi umsebenzi omunye, olunye utakatiye okufanele sililungise, sikhulume namazwe ukuwanxenxa ukuthi angaliduki izwe lakithi. Kodwa kudingeka ukuthi sikhulume nabakithi abasenobuhlanga obuseluhlaza obungeqiwe ngisho amanzi, ukuthi: Hhawu! Kahleni bakithinaze ukusihlaza. Kusho ukuthi kuzothiwa ukuthi namanje noma sekukhona umbuso wentando yeningi kodwa isekhona leya nsila embi yobandlululo. Ifuna ukuthi siyisuse, sihlangane sonke thina bantu baseNingizimu Afrika ngoba ayiyinhle leya nto ebonwe izwe lonke. Leya nto ibonisa nokuthi nanoma umbuso wethu ukhona kodwa kusekhona abantu abasafuna ukuzenzela intando yabo. Mhlawumbe basebenzisa ukuthi ngoba uMthethosisekelo muhle ngakho-ke nanoma bangenzani ngeke bahlale ejele ngoba bazokhishwa nge-bail. Angazi ukuthi singathi ngempela bekwenzenjani kulaba bantu, benze isimanga esiyisimanga. Kodwa njengohulumeni sizokhuluma sibatshele abangaphandle ukuthi phela isekhona leyansila bakithi, siyayikhuculula ngakho-ke musani ukuduba izwe, sebenzani nathi ngoba sisaphethe itshe sikhuculula le imbulu, insila. Phela yona isekhona kufuneka sipheke amanzi ashisayo siyiphucule. Ngiyabonga Somlomo. [Ihlombe.]
Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Speaker, Msholozi, South is the United Kingdom’s largest trade partner in Africa even though trade has somewhat gone down and South Africa is now the seventh largest export market. However, it remains the largest source of foreign direct investment and, of course, tourism is one of the key areas between the two countries. The South African brand is penetrating the British market across the board and South Africa remains one of the top 20 exporters to the United Kingdom, the list is endless of the relationship between the two.
The United Kingdom being the strategic trade partner for South Africa, Mr President, and given that Prime Minister May has indicated that she will trigger article 50 in March some 140 days from now. What is South Africa doing proactively to look at the deals that South Africa has with the European Union and with the United Kingdom to ensure that we protect the gains that South Africa made needs to consolidate those trade deals? What are the proactive steps that are in place in terms of negotiating that deals with the United Kingdom and with the European Union, so that you do not wait for the process to actually starts before we kick-start our own. Let us rather err on the side of caution. I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, South Africa has a very structured relation - you have correctly put it- with the United Kingdom as well as the European Union. What we are then doing, is to engage these countries as we always do to try and deepen our relations with them in order to grow the trade between the countries. With all these things that have happened, we are looking at them very closely. We are also having discussions about whether those are interfering with our relations or not. We will continue to do so because it is absolutely important that we maintain that economic relationship with the European Union as well as United Kingdom. Therefore, our job is to ensure that they are maintained. Thank you vey much, Madam Speaker.
Dr M J CARDO: Speaker, Mr President, you said that South Africa was disliked by Western powers because our country is a member of the Brics group of emerging economies and that furthermore these Western powers wanted to dismantle Brics. Mr President, which Western countries were you referring to? How did they plan on dismantling Brics? And what will the effect of their actions be on our economic diplomacy with these Western countries over the next decade. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, if the speaker was listening very well, I said I’ve forgotten the names of these countries. [Laughter.] How can he think I’m going to remember here? He he he he. What I was doing, Speaker, I was discussing the global political landscape, as I know it. I was not attacking anyone but making particularly for the ANC members to understand what is happening today. [Applause.] I was telling them what has happened, which I know. All the time I traced the history, particularly of the ANC, the Western countries and then the Eastern countries during our struggle.[Interjections.] I told you that I forgotten the name. [Laughter.]
The critical point is that the world has views about a number of things. I was saying there are things that are happening in this country, and I don’t think a discussion in my political party taken in a particular way is a discussion that needs... because if the DA wants me to come and analyse that I can come to help you understand the balance of forces in the world. [Interjections.] I will easily come to do so. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr P G ATKINSON: Mr President, earlier this year you attended the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and it is one of the pre-eminent meetings of world and economic leaders to discuss economics in the world. What I would like to ask you is: What did you do at that meeting to help enhance our economic diplomacy? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, in all the international forums as well as the worth, when we go there as a delegation from South Africa, we go there to promote the interest of this country. We ask the investors to come and invest in South Africa and we also tell them about good opportunities that they must exploit in South. That is what we do. We even have special sessions where we sit with them as the team South Africa to present our country and say come and invest. That is what we do and we have been successful so far. Thank you very much, madam Speaker. [Applause.]
QUESTION 22 / Nb (eng)// // JN (Zul, 24-11-2016 @15:45) / TAKE ENDS AT 16:07
|
QUESTION 21
Question 22:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, reviews by rating agencies are important for the country. They form part of many monitoring mechanisms that encourage us to improve governance in both public and private sector.
In the continent, South Africa is a strong proponent of the African peer review mechanism in which we submit reports and also engage the reports of other countries to encourage improvements in governance.
To reignite growth and improve the global competitiveness of our country, we initiated active collaboration between government, business and labour leaders. The purpose for this is to work together to reduce policy uncertainty, improve confidence in the country’s ability to achieve inclusive growth. Progress has been made in this regard and the following short term measures are being implemented: R1,4 billion has been committed by the private sector to support small business enterprises. Companies have pledged to offer internships to 1 million young work seekers. The independent power producer programme in the renewable energy has attracted investments generating more than 2500 megawatt of energy.
The performance of some of our state-owned companies has improved and work is continuing to support them. Cabinet has also approved specific frameworks relating to amongst others the appointment and remuneration of boards of directors in state-owned companies as well as private sector participation in the state-owned companies.
Efforts to introduce labour market reforms are also gaining momentum. The announcement by the Deputy President on progress made in negotiating the national minimum wage is a significant step in the right direction. We congratulate the Deputy President and his panel, as well as our social partners at The National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, for a job well done. This shows that when we work together, we can achieve a lot more.
On the finance side, the 2016 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement adhered to the expenditure ceiling announcing a further reduction of R26 billion in the spending ceiling over the next two years. The unforeseeable spending pressures such as the increased university subsidies in 2016-17 were accommodated through the contingency reserve. We also remain to measure such as promoting infrastructure development as part of boosting the economy.
We have budgeted over R987 billion for infrastructure development over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework period with continual large investments in energy, transport and telecommunications. I believe we have indeed done a lot working together to create favourable conditions for economic growth and to steiff of any downgrade. I thank you Madam Speaker.
Mr N S SWART: Madam Speaker, the ACDP appreciate all the efforts that have been made to date and have been indicated today by our government business and labour, the team South Africa approach to avoid a downgrade to junk status. This is something as a proudly South African we can’t and we won’t allow happening. The toughest ratings agency however SNP is set to deliver its next rating next week. Now, while growth prospects the fiscal balance external debt level and other things that are indicated will be scrutinised by the agencies. One issue that they did mention was that for the first time ever they fail to oblige to highlight political risk and tension. Do you not believe that the recent developments including the tension between the Hawks and the National Prosecution Authority, NPA, and National Treasury leading to trumped-up charges being filed and dropped against the Finance Minister and others and the prima facie evidence and damning observations contained in the public protector state capture report will strengthen those perceptions about increasing political tensions and if so what are you able to do allay those perceptions and avoid any chance of a sovereign downgrade which we all stand together with and government we need to avoid at all costs? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I think the hon member knows that we have worked very hard together in South Africa to grow our economy under very difficult conditions of global meltdown economically and we have also worked with the institutions and agencies that downgrade countries or grade countries and indeed they have been here talking to a number of people to gain the knowledge as to how things are going.
Again, you will know that in economy and politics globally there is always a movement. There are countries like UK for an example that took action and went to referendums and they were political consequences. There have been elections in the United States, US, where the US people took their own decision which has caused problems within the US. So, politics are all over.
What is funny here in South Africa is that, South Africans highly politicise the rating agencies and that’s a problem. There are many things that happen in other countries that you don’t even hear that they have been ratings, etc. I can tell you France in September was downgraded, UK in June 2016 were downgraded, Turkey in September downgraded to junk status, Russia in January 2015 downgraded, US in 2011 downgraded, Brazil in February 2016 downgraded to junk state, China in March 2016. You have never heard them but in South Africa even if they have not arrived is a big issue. We are politicising downgrading. That is our problem.
Now, we have been working hard to meet them and we are talking to them as I say they have been here. They will take their decision after that as they have been taking decisions to all other countries, big and small. The point I am making is that we here tend to politicise things and therefore create a very big hype when this is not an issue to other people. I am sure some of you are hearing these for the first time that there are those countries in junk status, because you didn’t know. There was not a big issue. So, we are ready to tell them the truth about the economic situation in the country. They will take their decision.
What we have been doing all the time is to try to grow the economy of this country and that is what we are doing and we do give details to them on what we are doing. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon Mulder, on what point are you rising?
Dr C P MULDER: I am rising on a point of order in terms of section 55(3) of the Constitution.
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member. You can take a seat, hon President while he is raising his point of order.
Dr C P MULDER: With all due respect to the President, the President answered now in terms of what he said, but that was not the question asked by the hon Swart. With all due respect the hon Swart asked from the President, if the President is of a view that the charges by the NPA against the Minister of Finance may have had an influence. That was the question and it was not answered at all with due respect.
The SPEAKER: Well, I give the President AN OPPORTUNITY if he wants to say anything in addition to how he has answered. He doesn’t have to.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The question hon Speaker was asked to me and I heard it very well. Question as I was speaking here. Here are the agencies coming to look at us with the aim of either grading in what ever way. Are there other issues? It was not just one issue, there are number of issues that were mentioned.
I dealt with the issue that we in South African tend to politicise grading and the issue that he was counting, those are issues that are very high politically in the country and that is the answer. We tend to politicise to pick and choose what we think is a problem that the rating agencies will talk about. That is the problem.
He even said they are already talking about it but that was not answering the question. We politicise the issues in South Africa. How could you say I didn’t answer the question? I heard the question very clearly and I answered the question very clearly.
Mr M WALTERS: Speaker, this side. Sorry to interrupt the President and hon Buthelezi but could you inform the gallery not to participate in the proceeding. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: Yes, indeed. Hon guests in the gallery please don’t participate. Hon Buthelezi! Where is hon Buthelezi? He is at the back? Okay. There he is.
Mr S N BUTHELEZI: Hon Speaker, ...
IsiZulu:(16:22:28)
... sithokoze Mongameli ngokusitshela ukuthi uhulumeni kaKhongolose uqinisile ukuthi izimpilo zabantu zibengcono ngoba thina njengoKhongolose yilokho esikubeka phambili.
Your Excellency, the rating agencies Standard & Poor’s’ (S&P), Moody’s, and Fitch, all have raised the issue of low economic growth in our country as a concern. They particularly pointed at the risk of load shading
IsiZulu:(16:23:04)
Bengicela Mongameli ukuthi uke ukhulume nabantu baseNingizimu Afrika kanye nathi lapha usitshele ukuthi uhulumeni kaKhongolose usuwenzeni ukuzama indaba kagesi ikwazi ukulungiseka.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, ...
IsiZulu:
... njengoba bengike ngasho lungu le Ndlu ehloniphekileyo ukuthi siyasebenza lapha ukwenza izimpilo zabantu zibengcono. Uzokhumbula ukuthi ezinyangeni eziningi ezedlule lokucima kogesi ngaso sonke isikhathi okuthiwa phecelezi load shedding bekuyikinga. Sasesithatha isinqumo sokuthi sibhekane nakho ngqo. Akusekho manje sekuphelile. [Ihlombe.] Izikhalo ezazikhona ukuthi ezomnotho ziyalimala njalo-njalo azisekho. Lokho kubonakalisa ukuthi iNingizimu Afrika iyakwazi ukwenza izinto ezibonakalayo. Akusesona isikhalo manje lesi esesikhona ngoba kwakuthiwa iyona le eyenza ukuthi ezomnotho zingakhuli. Seyilungisiwe. Silungisa nokunye nokunye.
Sikhulisa ngisho namandla kagesi ukuthi abe maningi kakhulu ukuze ugesi ungaphindi ube yinkinga lapha eNingizimu Afrika. [Ihlombe.] Yingoba ugesi noma amandla kagesi abaluleke kakhulu ezimpilweni zabantu nakwezomnotho. Ngicabanga ukuthi senza kahle kakhulu. Wonke umuntu uyawubonga uhulumeni ukuthi: Hawu, naze nasisiza nasiqedela i-load shedding. Sayiqeda ngempela ngeke futhi iphinde ibikhona. Kusho ukuthi siyayazi into esiyenzayo. Ngiyabonga Mama uSomlomo.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, before I ask my question, I think is incumbent on me to recognise that the President is evidently being brushing up over the last couple of weeks on the nine point plan and so, I will congratulate him on his perfect rendition of the nine point plan to please take economic growth and create jobs in South Africa. My question is this, does the President share the view held by many in his party that the ratings agencies simply serve the interests of western powers and that is in fact why he support the establishment of a Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, BRICS, ratings agency?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I have given the answer here which is very clear, that rating agencies rate all countries. The only issue is that in other countries they don’t politicise the work of the rating agencies. However, I am sure the hon member knows that there are many views about economies. Economies don’t have one view, even if they were in the western countries or in what ever part. They have got views about economy. They have got assumptions about economy, whatever assumptions they might have.
Now, BRICS as a grouping that look at the world in a particular way has taken a decision to establish a kind of rating agency from another point of view economically. That is what is happening. Their point of view is that I am telling you that economies have got different point of views about one and the same issue. You know it very well and I am saying the BRICS have their own point view of looking at the economies. They want to see those that have a particular point of view doing their own rating in their own understanding and in their own approach and there is nothing wrong with that. What is your point of view? I have my point of view. Thank you, Madam Chair.
IsiZulu: (16:28:10)
Mnu M HLENGWA: Ngiyathokoza Somlomo bengifuna ukuthi ngalolu daba lukamhlonishwa uButhelezi laphaya emuva Somlomo ukuze ngokuzayo ingabikhona inkinga kungcono uthi Buthelezi Junior ukuze kungabikhona ukudideka. [Uhleko.] Msholozi ...
English:
You have outlined a number of plans and initiatives and efforts that have been made. All of them are aimed at, of course, growing the economy and creating jobs. When you were elected in 2009, you promised 500 000 jobs in that year and the economy lost 1 million jobs. The unemployment has gone up from 26% to 27,1%. The economic growth outlook has been revised to 0,5%. This speaks to an economic plan of your government administration that is not working.
So, what plans, Mr President do you have to ensure that we realise the ideals of job creation and ensuring that the economy actually grows because none of your efforts now have yielded any results, which we can actually speak to if unemployment goes up and the economy is being revised downwards? So, do you believe that the efforts of your government administration are making the desired headway in achieving what is actually needed and wanted by South Africans? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, yes I do believe that the efforts that we are making are working bearing in mind that we have an economic slow down globally. There is no economy that is growing more than others except in terms of their size.
Every country is faced with the economic challenges that face the world even the biggest economy. So, working within that situation we have been able, for an example while statistics have come out to show the loss of jobs, but what you don’t say it also indicates the job that have been created under difficult circumstances. The statistics are there. I know that people always quote one side of the statistics but it is because of the challenges that the world is faced with that the situation is what it is.
We have provided a lot of efforts to grow the economy including the, where is the member there who likes nine point plan? We brought it as part of dealing with economy and it is working. The only thing is that there is no country that can say we are out of the woods in terms of the economic challenges. It doesn’t mean that their policies are wrong. Whether they are correct the environment is difficult and that is what you are dealing with. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
QUESTION 23 / AMON/GG(Zul) / TAKE ENDS AT 16:31
|
QUESTION 22
Question 23:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, we organise the Heads of Mission Conference once a year, to brief our ambassadors and high commissioners representing us abroad on policy issues at home. The aim is to prepare them to accurately represent and promote the interests of the country abroad. The economic challenges facing the world necessitates an enhanced implementation of our economic programmes especially our economic diplomacy within Africa and in the world at large.
Through the Nine-Point Plan that I have mentioned earlier, we are implementing ways of responding effectively to the persistent slow global economic growth. Challenges such as the decision of Britain to withdraw from the European Union and its possible impact on South Africa, is also important and is being looked at carefully as mentioned earlier.
Other challenges in the environment have been the falling commodity prices which have necessitated that we diversify our economy and improve the performance of sectors such as tourism, agriculture, beneficiation and others.
Another key aspect is the promotion of intra-Africa trade and regional integration so that we do not depend on markets beyond our continent only. This will also help to promote sustainable development in Africa. The establishment of free trade areas in the continent by the African Union is thus a key aspect of the continental economic strategy.
The Southern African Development Community, SADC, region has also developed a regional industrialisation strategy which augurs well for the future. Peace and security in the continent and beyond has a serious impact on economic growth and development and receives attention continuously. South Africa participates in peacekeeping and peacemaking missions in the continent as well as understands the importance of peace and security for human development. Global peace and stability must also return to other regions and countries from Libya to Syria or Yemen and Palestine.
Ultimately, we want to coexist peacefully and productively with our neighbours and economic partners all over the world. This will contribute to our goals of building a growing economy which creates jobs for our people. In this regard, the latest statistics which we have reported that unemployment rate is now 27%, is cause for concern. This development makes us more determined to improve our collaboration with business, labour and the community sector.
We need to move together to cushion the economy and reignite growth. Government will continue to improve the environment and the other parties will be encouraged to play their part as well, for the good of the country. All these will contribute to the realisation of the goals of the National Development Plan to promote growth and create much needed jobs. I thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, the hon Mahlalela will take the place of the hon Coleman who asked the original question. I would also like to take the opportunity to remind hon members that your supplementary questions must be directly related to the original question and the answer given there to and may not constitute a totally new question. Hon Mahlalela.
Mr A F MAHLALELA: [Somlomo noMongameli.] Hon Speaker and hon President, the world remains in the grips of the economic crisis despite signs of a tentative recovery; South Africa remains an important investment destination in the continent and the gateway for business in Africa. Hon President, is it possible to explain whether there is a link between our diplomatic efforts and the transformation of our economy as well as the general development of our people as we strive towards the realisation of our national democratic society as well as whether there are efforts with these missions to contribute in research, resource technology as a way of supporting industrialisation, beneficiation and agroprocessing in our country in order to create jobs and deal with the challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality? Thank you, very much.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, the answer is: Yes there is a link between and among the issues you mentioned. That is precisely the reason why our representatives in different countries and in different regions in the world always come back so that we could have that engagement. When they are here, we give them an opportunity with the different departments; particularly departments that relate to the economic growth to go engage and brief our high commissioners and ambassadors and tell them where we are and what are the things that we think they need to do to ensure that the economic relations with those countries grow.
We also of course are keen to hear from them the views about the regions or the countries where they come from; what is the situation and what is it that they think we need to do? Particularly because South Africa is a very globally attractive country; it is one of the country which has a huge number of the diplomatic core and therefore we want to exploit that that in the countries where we are, we are able to represent South Africa as the investment destination. That is what we talk to them about and then look at the specific areas that we think we could relate with those countries.
So, it is linked together and they are not just representing us only, they are actually saying South Africa is the best country for investment. That is what we do and it is giving us the benefits, because they are able to indicate to other countries what are the opportunities that they can go to in South Africa and indeed part of the reason that we do get the foreign direct investments is because partly of the work that our missions do. So, yes it is all connected. It is political relations as well as economic relations in the main. [Applause.]
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Madam Speaker and Mr President, Mr President since you became the President in 2009 we have dropped in the rankings in almost every global measure of competitiveness including the one mentioned in this question. For example, we have dropped full 40 places in the World Bank’s ease of doing business reports from 34th position in 2009, to 74th position this year. Last year we dropped in foreign direct invest by full 74% in one year. [Interjections.]
Now Mr President, there are many reasons why this has happened. I can think of at least 783. [Laughter.] However, one reason you definitely cannot use is the global economy. Every other country mentioned in this rankings has faced the same constrains and yet comparatively we have massively lost ground.
So, my question Mr President is: What specifically are you doing in government to improve our rankings on these critical measures and Mr President in your reply if you could be very specific and refer to the categories of measurement used in for example the World Bank’s ease of doing business reports. Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I think ever since we started dealing with these questions I have been actually answering that question in reality. [Interjections.] For I said: What is it that we are doing economically and what kind of programmes that we are putting in place against a very difficult situation of the economy? In fact there are very big countries that were for a very long time sitting below the line because of the economic meltdown. It is only globally now that signs are showing that we could be growing.
South Africa is not the only country that has faced difficulties. All the countries have and of course other countries have grown up and because of the challenges that are there. If the economy is not growing at a rate that we wanted it to, you cannot then expect the country to be colourful because we are dealing with difficult situations. Particularly, South Africa for it has a very peculiar history that in everything we do it shows itself. These old scars show themselves.
We were dealing for an example, with the issue of education earlier. The reason we have a problem of education is because the education system before 1994 was crooked and we are trying to solve all those problems that other countries do not have to solve. [Applause.]
I know that when people compare South Africa to its or same size countries forget that fact that the greater majority of this country was excluded from skills development and empowerment. [Applause.] Those are the problems that we are faced with now. That is the difference from other countries. That is why in South Africa, things that are not like in other countries can be identified. We have problems that other countries do not have. They had good systems and everybody was at school yet here it was not. Other people were closed outside and people who are a majority and who could be contributing massively to the economy of this country. That is the problem. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Mr President, you seem to be forgetting quite a lot these days. So, I want you help you remember a few crucial things. [Interjections.] When you said all the countries of the world fit into Africa that you in the last Question Session you could not name your Nine-Point Plant and I am glad to see with the help of a piece of paper you did so today - that your government aided and abetted a man wanted for genocide Omar al-Bashir to escape the country in spite of the court order and that since you assumed office the gross domestic product, GDP, of this country has declined every single year and 1,5 million more people are unemployed and of course foreign direct investment is down 74% year-on-year; so Mr President my question to you is: How can your government be believed with anything relating to diplomatic trade and security issues when you had such a poor record on all of them?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, well, hon members have different views on matters, for he is repeating the question that was asked by his colleague and the answer that I am going to give is the same. [Interjections.] The challenges of this country for today were cost yesterday. This country did not educate its majority who could be participating in the economy today. The economy was run wrong. That was the situation. And therefore we are not just dealing with the economic meltdown, but we are dealing with our history as well which was distorted. That is why some difficulties that we are facing other countries do not face. That is the point. That is an account and if we had time, we could sit down and count to you what these gaps that I am talking about are. For no matter what we say the scars still show. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]
Mr M A MNCWANGO: Msholoz’omkhulu. [Hon Msholozi.] Madam Speaker, Mr President you stated in your address to Heads of Mission recently that and I quote, “The economy remains the apex priority ... We want to achieve inclusive growth, jobs and a decent life for our people.” My question is: What efforts Mr President, are you doing to reassure foreign investors that South Africa has a stable political climate and is a safe investment? Would you not say that our domestic environment is currently more volatile than the international arena?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, as I said earlier, situations change. At times they become volatile and at times they become not volatile. There are places in the world that are more volatile than others. If you take the wars in Syria, Libya etc, and those wars are caused by people. [Laughter.] When I explain the South African situation to people, I always say we have a democracy and in democracy people are free to express themselves. At times people had mistaken that as a volatile situation. I can tell you; of course it depends on how people understand democracy and how far they take it.
In our own House, when I go around people ask me: What is happening in South Africa? For they see us here in our Parliament and I say to them, it is democracy. We have democracy where people can stand up and talk. In places where there is no democracy you cannot even see what is happening. For there is nobody is allowed to speak. It is the manner in which we handle our democracy that seems to look like there is a volatile situation. It is democracy and that is how we want it.
I would not say that people think that South Africa is a volatile country because they know that there are different views, we are outspoken, we do not keep quiet and we talk about everything. That is democracy. It does not translate to volatility. It is not. It is the democratic process that we have all accepted that people can stand up, say what they want, use even insults and tell lies it is democracy. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Laughter.]
QUESTION 24 / AZM MNGUNI/ TAKE ENDS AT 16:51
|
QUESTION 23
Question 24:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, according to section 34 of the Constitution of the Republic, everyone has the right to take any dispute to court or to another independent and impartial tribunal or forum. That right extends to Ministers Van Rooyen and Zwane. They do not need my permission to exercise this constitutional right. I thank you.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, Mr Zuma ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Please proceed, hon Maimane.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: ... the Executive Members’ Ethics Act, which was signed into law by a Mr J G Zuma when he was Acting President, states that no member may wilfully mislead the legislature to which they are accountable.
On 25 October, you went into the NCOP and were asked the question, Why did you seek to interdict the State of Capture Report? To which you responded, and I would like to quote it:
I interdicted it because she ...
- ie Thuli Madonsela -
... was going to issue the report having not talked to me or asked me any questions.
[Interjections.] On 6 October, she released the State of Capture Report, which outlines a number of interactions between you and her in a number of hours where she spoke to you. That was three weeks before you arrived at the NCOP. [Interjections.]
My question, more specifically, is why - because it is clear to me that there is a contradiction between what, in fact, happened and what you said happened. I want to understand this: Why did you deliberately mislead the National Council of Provinces and violate the very law you signed into law? [Applause.] Clearly, there is a blatant contradiction, and I would like to know why you wilfully misled the people of this country. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I never misled anyone. [Interjections.] Never. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu: 16:54:49
Cha, lalela. Ngikulalelile nami, lalela. [Ubuwelewele.] [Ihlombe.]
English:
If people did not hear properly, I ... the Public Protector wrote a letter to me in March. In that letter, she was reporting that the DA and others had raised the matter, or brought a complaint about state capture, and that she was still evaluating the report. If I wanted to comment, I could. That was the letter, which later, she admitted was not sent in March. It was sent in April.
Mr M WATERS: No, she said she sent the follow-up.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: That letter did not say I had to answer questions. There were no questions.
Then, later, about two or three days before ... no, before that, she then wrote another letter asking for a meeting to brief me about where her work on this matter was, and I prepared to wait to listen to the briefing. Two or three days before the meeting, she then said I would have to answer questions. I had not received any questions up to that point.
Mr M WATERS: It was six days, actually. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: We then had a meeting with her and I said to her, procedurally, I was not in a position to answer questions ...
An HON MEMBER: Why not?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... because she sent documents of complaints, not questions. Not questions, and I said in the meeting that we had ...
An HON MEMBER: The one you denied that you had!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Whatever. You don’t know what you are holding there. [Interjections.] I said ...
IsiZulu: 16:57:21
... Cha, ngikulalelile. Ngikulalelile uma ukhuluma, lalela mina.
English:
We spent four hours arguing. I said it was not fair, because if she had wanted me to answer questions, she should have sent the questions. I would have read and prepared the answers. [Interjections.] Then ... that’s what ... that’s what the procedure is, if you don’t know.
An HON MEMBER: No, it’s not!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: We then argued on that point with her. In the process of the argument, she produced questions, which I was seeing for the first time.
HON MEMBERS: So? So?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: She read the questions and I said I needed to prepare. [Interjections.] In the first instance, she had never told me I was being investigated.
As I have said, what her letters were saying to me was, firstly, she was informing me; and in the second letter, she was coming to brief me, not to ask questions. That was the discussion, and that was what that discussion would say. She said, Answer the questions. I said, No! I am not going to answer these questions. She said, But you have answered these questions in public. I said, Yes. I said, If a journalist asks a question, it is a different matter ...
HON MEMBERS: Why? Why’s it different?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... or if it was a friend or whoever. However, if it is a Public Protector or a judge or a magistrate, it is a different matter. You need to prepare ...
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... because the intention of asking the question by a journalist or a Public Protector is not the same. The journalist wants to write a story – the end of the story. The Public Protector or judge wants to ask a question to make a finding.
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: That is a different matter. That is a debate I had with the Spea- ... I did not mislead anyone. [Applause.]
An HON MEMBER: She spoke to you!
The SPEAKER: Is the hon President done?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I’m done. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Yes. Hon Filtane?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: On what point are you rising, hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, this is the third time we have had to rise to ask you to please get the gallery under control. [Interjections.] When there is ...
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: May I remind the gallery, please, not to clap their hands ... [Interjections.] ... because we have respectfully always asked that you do not participate in the goings-on in the House. Thank you very much. Hon Filtane?
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, Mr President, good afternoon.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Good afternoon, hon member.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Somebody once wrote, “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” [Interjections.] The two Ministers mentioned in the main question are the most recently appointed ones. So, in a sense, one could say they are equal to even those that were appointed a long time ago.
Now, my understanding is that Cabinet works as a collective but you head the team. My question is: Why would you not have considered it prudent, politically and otherwise, to have given them legal advice when the media was all over them, at the time? [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, firstly, I know no law, I can’t advise on legal matters, I can’t; and secondly, if anyone has challenges from the institutions of law, they have got to deal with that matter. I think you have lawyers who are better placed to deal with this matter.
It’s not the first time. There have been a number of Ministers who have had challenges dealing with a number of matters. I don’t come ... as a President, I can’t be an adviser, legally, of the Ministers. We have legal advice, including state law advisers, who must do that, really. [Interjections.] [Applause.] So, I can’t even say, political or otherwise. It’s just ... I can’t do it - unless they were coming to seek political advice, which I will give, because I know politics. That’s my area I advise more. [Applause.] Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, Msholozi, hon President, one of the areas of contestation for the release of the report was what you referred to earlier on – and that’s the nonapplication of the audi alteram partem rule. Now, we noted that, when the report was released, the Chairman of Eskom, in particular, and the chief executive officer indicated that they were not given an opportunity to respond to some of the findings in the report. We do know that Eskom is a very strategic enterprise in our country. As the hon Junior Buthelezi said earlier on, they produce “i-gas” and there’s no load shedding.
Given the fact that there is prima facie evidence of certain allegations and wrongdoings within Eskom and with certain business people, will you not consider, hon President, in terms of your constitutional powers, to appoint a commission of inquiry to deal with those matters? In this way, all parties who have been accused or the accusers can come before a judge and deal with the facts of the matter.
Eskom is an organisation that borrows money from national and international organisations and we want their credibility to be maintained. So, what is your view towards appointing this commission of inquiry – remedial action, or not? Thank you, hon Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, firstly, as I said, you heard me telling my story about how I was treated in the process of this report.
HON MEMBERS: Awww!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Secondly, the report ... if a report has been investigated ... the culture is that there is a preliminary report or provisional report in which those who have been accused are given an opportunity to look at it and respond. Then there is a final report.
This report has been dealt with in a very funny way – very funny, in my view. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: Yes, it’s hilarious.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: It affected me and many. [Interjections.] No fairness, at all. Now, the matter in which, therefore, the report comes in and makes the recommendations is a matter that concerns some of us who are mentioned there. We would want that work to be done properly ...
An HON MEMBER: Take it on review, then!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... and that’s why we are working on it. That’s why I can’t go further on that because I can’t then jump, when I have these views, to establish a commission. Even the manner in which the recommendation is ...
Ms D KOHLER: You don’t like the findings!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: ... it is the President who has the right to appoint a commission. [Interjections.] No one, no matter what position they hold, can instruct the President to establish a commission and even tell the process through which we must go. It’s very funny.
An HON MEMBER: So, what are you scared of?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I’ve never heard of it.
An HON MEMBER: What are you scared of?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: So, that’s a problem that we are faced with in regard to this report.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Take it to court!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Speaker, Mr President, now you have made it abundantly clear that you are not a legal fundi, I won’t pose any legal questions to you.
HON MEMBERS: Awww!
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Mr President, legal advice was sought. Legal advice was given. This matter went to court. It is now abundantly clear that that legal advice and the decision to go to court was an incorrect one. Would you perhaps be able to ensure that these legal advisers that took the matter to court, at the expense of the taxpayers ... would you be able to ensure that we recover this money from the legal advisers that perhaps gave incorrect legal advice to go to court in this matter? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, well, I don’t know. When there is litigation, people go to court. They give advice, whatever grounds they have. That is why, in courts, there are decisions later, which will prove that point. However, if you are faced with the situation where you are not a lawyer and a lawyer says we can fight this, you have to.
If you feel dissatisfied with the manner in which either the process has been undertaken or the kind of conclusion is not right, I don’t think you can just say, Me, I’m not going to take any legal action - because you don’t know the outcome. You are faced with a challenge. You have got to deal with the challenge in front of you. At times, once you are in court, you realise something and you are advised by your lawyers of the direction to take. It happens all the time.
So, I see nothing wrong with people being advised to go to court and lose, perhaps, and at times, win. I don’t think there is anyone who knows when the case starts, that they are going to win or lose the case. It is at the final end when the judgment is given that you know I have lost or I have won.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: When have you ever won?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
The House adjourned at 17:11.
/Robyn/ VW// (Zul) [25/11/2016 09:03] / TAKE ENDS AT 17:08
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents