Hansard: NCOP: Questions to the President of RSA
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 14 May 2015
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCE
Thursday, 14 May 2015 Take: 27
THURSDAY, 14 MAY 2015
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:00.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
START OF DAY
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NEW MEMBER
(Announcement)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I would like to make an announcement. The hon Matebus, member of the EFF, has resigned as a member of the National Council of Provinces. He has been replaced by a new member who was sworn in this morning, the hon N P Mokgosi. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome this member. It seems I am doing it in absentia. [Interjections.] Order, members!
I would like to ... [Interjections.] Order! Before we proceed, I would like to take the opportunity to welcome the President to this honourable House. Your Excellency, Mr President, you are very welcome. We are very happy to see you. [Applause.] I invite the President of South Africa to the podium please. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
Question 1:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
Hon Chairperson, we take youth development seriously, which is why the task is located in the Presidency, especially in the Ministry of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, under the leadership of Deputy Minister Buti Manamela.
The Deputy Minister is currently working on the development of the National Youth Policy 2020, focusing on economic participation and transformation, education, skills development, health care and combating substance abuse, as well as building social cohesion. These programmes will target all youth, including rural youth.
With regard to the existing programmes in the Presidency, the National Youth Development Agency has disbursed a total of R28 million to support new entrepreneurs, which has assisted 741 youth-owned enterprises and created 4 189 new and substantive, direct jobs for the 2014-15 financial year.
I launched the NYDA’s Solomon Mahlangu Scholarship Fund last year. The programme, which is supported by the Department of Higher Education and Training as well as the National Skills Fund, funds 300 young people in higher education and training institutions. The NYDA also runs a successful matric rewrite school to prepare our youth for a better future.
There are several youth development programmes in government departments. The number of youth that have participated in the Expanded Public Works Programme has grown from 229 642 in the 2009-10 financial year to 452 999 during the third quarter of the 2014-15 financial year.
We also have the successful National Youth Service Programme, and the Vuk’uphile Contractor Development Programme under the Expanded Public Works Programme which provides construction skills training. The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform has provided training to more than 4 000 young people in various trades as part of the National Rural Youth Service Corps programme. The Department of Environment Affairs continues to roll out programmes that benefit the youth. These include Working on Waste, Working for Wetlands, Working for Water, Working on Fire and environmental youth service programmes.
The Department of Higher Education and Training has assisted thousands of young people with funding for their studies through the National Student Financial Aid Scheme. The establishment of the three new universities and 12 new technical vocational education and training colleges is also part of boosting and enhancing youth development. Through the Decade of the Artisan programme, which was launched in 2014, the Department of Higher Education and Training has also managed to reach over 15 000 learners, exposing them to occupations such as plumbing and the electrical, mechanical and other civil trades.
Training of our youth is also done through state-owned enterprises and companies such as Transnet, Eskom, the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa and others.
The National Treasury manages the youth employment incentive scheme to encourage employers to employ youth so that they can gain experience. We also continue to encourage employers to take in young people as interns and apprentices as part of the Youth Employment Accord.
New programmes are also being introduced. The Department of Human Settlements launched a youth brigade in December last year to promote youth participation in construction, working with the Department of Small Business Development, the National Youth Development Agency and the private sector. The Department of Water and Sanitation is to train 15 000 young people as plumbers, artisans and water agents to eliminate water leaks in their communities.
To enable better co-ordination and championing of all this good work by the Presidency, last week I established a presidential task team on youth development, which is chaired by Deputy Minister Manamela and comprises 18 Deputy Ministers. I am also establishing a Presidential Youth Working Group to improve co-ordination with stakeholders and youth formations.
Hon members, ultimately economic growth is the fundamental solution to improving opportunities for our youth. We continue to work with business, labour and the community sector to improve the economic climate to enable inclusive growth and development. I thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you, Chairperson of the NCOP. Your Excellency, President of the Republic of South Africa, muhlomphegi [hon], next time my follow-up will be in isiZulu, hopefully. Hopefully.
My follow-up question, Mr President, is this. It was only yesterday when we learnt that, comparatively speaking, provinces are doing very well in addressing the issue of unemployment. The only challenge seems to be - not seems to be, because statistics say that it is there - in the Western Cape where the opposition are in power. Figures indicate that unemployment is growing there.
My follow-up question is: Is this message of hope that Your Excellency is giving to the country also going to benefit the people of the Western Cape, particularly the youth, because statistics say that this province is not doing well in that regard? Will these interventions benefit that province also? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, the programmes that I have talked about, and the plans and activities, are meant to deal with the youth in South Africa. There is no part of South Africa that is not included. [Applause.] If there are parts of the country that are not doing well, that will perhaps be because of some subjective conditions or whatever, which will have to be looked at. But otherwise the aim of government is to empower and benefit the youth of South Africa throughout the country. Thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Van Lingen is next. Mr Mtileni, you are standing up. Is that a point of order?
Mr V E MTILENI: Chair, it is a question of privilege, with reference to Rule 81. It is a question of privilege. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, please, take your seat. I am dealing with supplementary questions. Hon Van Lingen, you have been recognised. Please remember that I can take only four, and one has already gone. Yours will be number 2. Mtileni, if it is a question, you are number 3, and number 4 is Mr Nthebe.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, the President referred to the tax incentive scheme. The Employment Tax Incentive Act, Act 26 of 2013, was signed and the hon President referred to the fact that the youth can be employed, and they can do it through the National Treasury, but then he did not give any figures in regard to that fact.
He also referred to the Expanded Public Works Programme, where over five years the numbers have increased through a temporary work opportunity by 100 000, which is over 20 000 a year, but which is not really much. We know that 52% of the youth, or 1,3 million, between the ages of 15 and 24 are unemployed. We also know that the total of the youth between the ages of 15 and 19 coming into the labour market is 5,2 million.
My question is: What forward planning is being done? The hon President says that the Deputy Minister is busy with the National Youth Policy for 2020. I want to know what forward planning is being done because we can’t do it with the EPWP and similar programmes. We must get the private sector involved.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, what we are dealing with are plans that we have made, and they are forward-looking. The private sector is involved. We have just worked out a way of following our targets and monitoring to what extent we could do better. We believe that the numbers that I have given, which have grown, indicate that the plans are working.
I think we should bear the following in mind. I know that when we discuss these matters, generally people take South Africa to be like any other country that has existed and has not had interruptions or wrong policies. However, South Africa is a country where there were deliberate policies that created the problems we are dealing with today; policies that decided that the majority of the people of this country should be deprived of proper education.
We have had only 21 years to deal with this backlog, and that is why we have challenges in this regard. That is why the challenges are huge. If we had not had wrong policies before, we would not have had these problems, and be like many other countries that don’t have them. I think we should take that into account when we address these matters.
That is partly the reason why we have these different programmes to address the problems that are the result of our own unfortunate history. We can’t deal with them overnight. The disadvantaging of the young people and the majority was not done overnight; it was done over decades and decades, and it is going to take decades and decades before we have corrected this. Thank you. [Applause.] I see the hon Mtileni.
Ms L MATHYS: Chair, I am standing on a point of order. Please can I be recognised?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: On a point of order?
Ms L MATHYS: Yes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, proceed.
Ms L MATHYS: My point of order is that the hon Mtileni rose on a point of order in regard to Rule 81, and you were very dismissive. Could you kindly refer us to the Rule that does not allow him to stand in regard to Rule 81 on a question of privilege during a debate. You were very dismissive of him, and I would like you to make a ruling on that please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will come back to the Rule. Mr Mtileni you are recognised to put a follow-up question. I will come back to you.
Ms L MATHYS: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will come back and rule on the point of order you have given me.
Ms L MATHYS: Today? Is it going to be today? Chairperson, I don’t think it is fair ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ma’am, I am responding to you. I will come back and rule on the point of order you are putting ... [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: But when? But when, Chairperson? I think it is very unfair. We have members rising on questions here. All I’m asking is for guidance from you as the Chairperson on why – and I don’t think it’s hard for you to say why – the hon Mtileni is not allowed to rise on Rule 81. That’s all, and I don’t think that is hard, and I don’t think that is beyond your being able to respond. [Interjections.] Yes, Rule 81.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is not beyond me to respond to you. I have responded to you. I have said that I will come back and rule on the point of order you are raising.
Ms L MATHYS: Will it be today or in another ruling at another time? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have ruled. Please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: So that is the ruling?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I said I would come back and give you a ruling on the point of order you are raising.
Ms L MATHYS: Are you going to give us a ruling now ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat, hon Mathys. [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, are you going to give us a ruling today or at another time? That’s all I am asking. [Interjections.] Will the ruling be given to us today before the sitting is over, or at another time? That’s all I’m asking about that. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys, you stood up on a point of order. In terms of the Rules of this House, when a point of order has been put, the officer presiding may rule immediately or rule at any other time. Have you been responded to now?
Ms L MATHYS: I have agreed that you can rule at any other time.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have ruled. [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: All I am questioning is when you are going to rule. [Interjections.] Will it be in the sitting today or will it be on another day? That is all that I’m trying to determine. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will rule when I rule, because I have said to you I have heard your point of order. The Rules permit me to rule immediately or at any other time.
Ms L MATHYS: And so you are telling the House today that you will just come back to this ruling whenever it suits you? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys! [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: That’s all. I don’t think it’s hard. I’m not saying ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys!
Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, I am not asking you to, but I’m just saying: When are you going to rule? That’s all. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys, I think you are deliberately ... [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: I’m not, Chairperson, but I’m asking you to kindly just say, “I will conclude the ruling later today,” or “It will be ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will not conclude the ruling later today at your insistence.
Ms L MATHYS: You won’t ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I will come back to this House and rule on the point of order you have raised.
Ms L MATHYS: Okay, so it won’t be today.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is enough ... [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: Okay, that’s all. Mr V E MTILENI
Ms L MATHYS
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Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you, hon Chairperson. I am also rising on a question of privilege. According to this book, Rule 81, I am allowed to interject and maybe come up with a question. If you check Rule 81, you will see I am allowed to pose a question immediately after the answer by the President. So, that being the case, I am still waiting for your permission to carry on with this privilege provided by Rule 81.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I could rule on what you say immediately, for repeating a point of order or a matter which has already been put to the House. I will not do so.
Mr V E MTILENI: This is not a point of order. I am rising on a point of privilege, according to Rule 81, to be afforded an opportunity ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Proceed.
Mr V E MTILENI: ... to pose a question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Proceed.
Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you, Chair. Mr President, ... [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, you are rising on a point of privilege.
Mr V E MTILENI: Yes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You address me, not the President. [Interjections.] Proceed.
Mr V E MTILENI: Okay. During question time in the National Assembly ... [Interjections.] I think, hon members, as was said yesterday, you need to respect us when we speak, because once we start howling at each other, I don’t think you will be able to stand the pain. [Interjections.] Hon Chair, during question time in the National Assembly, ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that the point of privilege, hon member?
Mr V E MTILENI: It’s a point of privilege, yes.
During question time in the National Assembly the President of this country was very passionate, had a broad smile, and even cracked jokes. That day he looked very energetic, saying that he never dodged answering questions in Parliament. Today, it is barely two months after he spoke in the National Assembly, I think, and we still want to know from the President as the head of this country, whether he has any intention, leading by example as the head of this country, of maybe responding to the recommendations of the Public Protector on the Nkandla issue? [Interjections.] I think we cannot allow some of the state organs to deteriorate, because what was recommended by the Public Protector was that the President unduly benefited at Nkandla. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, I am listening to your point of privilege in terms of Rule 81. Can I read the Rule to you?
Mr V E MTILENI: Yes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It says:
An urgent motion directly concerning the privileges of the Council takes precedence over other motions and over orders of the day.
It says, “directly”. I am trying to understand the urgent motion that you are bringing, which concerns the privileges of this House, in the speech you have made. You said that you were rising on a matter of privilege. So, please, respond to it. You quoted Rule 81. It says, “An urgent motion”. [Interjections.] No. Order, members! Order!
Mr V E MTILENI: According to this Rules book, I am allowed, after the President has responded or before he has even taken the podium, to ask a question. This book allows me, as a matter of privilege, to ask any question, even outside what is on the Question Paper. You can even consult with the people who are sitting in front of you there.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I don’t have to consult. [Interjections.] I have exactly the same Rule, hon member. I seem also to remember, hon members of the National Assembly, that we took the time to hold two workshops on the Rules. The second time we held a workshop on the Rules was so that we read the Rules together and interpreted the Rules the same way.
The caption to Rule 81 is, “Question of privilege”. It says:
An urgent motion directly concerning the privileges of the Council takes precedence over other motions and over orders of the day.
The hon member has not given us any motion. He has not raised any matter which directly affects the orders of this day. Hon member, this is the last opportunity for you to talk, because we cannot continue to divert the business of today.
Mr V E MTILENI: Yes, I am proposing that I move a motion that at the next appearance the President should be in a position ... [Interjections.] ... to answer, because he owes it to the nation that he should come and answer the recommendations of the Public Protector for himself. [Interjections.] I so move that at the next meeting, ... [Inaudible.] ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are repeating yourself.
Mr V E MTILENI: ... when he comes to answer questions.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, thank you very, very much. On the business before us today, maybe the member needs a workshop of some sort. The business before this House today is very specific. The President of the country is responding to questions put to him by those members of this House who care for the public that sent them here. Without appearing somehow, the organisation to which the hon member belongs did not put a question on this Question Paper. [Interjections.] Thank you, and the business before this House ...
Ms L MATHYS: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your point of order is sustained, hon Mathys. The members of this House do not necessarily have to put a question on the Question Paper, hon Chief Whip, in order for them to follow up.
I now want to go on with the business of the House. Hon Mtileni? Hon Van Lingen, do you have a point of order?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: I want to know whether you recognised the member for a question as well, or were you are going to offer to field another question, because we are wasting time. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, we are wasting time, but democracy is also a process which sometimes wastes time and resources. However, we must respect that, because we fought for it, hon Van Lingen. So, be a little patient.
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I think you afforded hon Mtileni an opportunity to ask a question in this session and also to use Rule 81, maybe unsuccessfully. However, I beg you, can I be afforded an opportunity to replace him, as my hand was up. Thank you, Chair. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, indeed, I did recognise hon Mtileni as the third person to ask a supplementary question, even though he rose and did something else. I am still accorded the opportunity to exercise whatever privilege I have sitting here, and to give him that opportunity. However, I have to handle another point of order, that of the hon Nyambi.
Mr A J NYAMBI: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like you to make a ruling in regard to Rule 81, because it is part of Chapter 7, which deals with motions. I will not repeat it by reading it for the House, because we have already done that. Is it parliamentary to deliberately mislead the House, abusing the opportunity and quoting Rule 81, which is very clear, and smuggling something in that is totally not linked to what Rule 81 says to us in regard to motions in Chapter 7?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Nyambi, we gave the hon member the opportunity to do as Rule 81 says. He indeed proposed a motion, which falls by the wayside because there is no time for motions.
However, at the time I recognised those who would put supplementary questions, he raised a hand for a supplementary question. Hon member, I am according you that privilege of a supplementary question now. When I put it, I asked him whether it was for a follow-up question and he said yes. If you do not have it, hon member, I will be happy to pass.
Mr V E MTILENI: No, no, no. According to what I ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys, please be respectful of the Rules of this House. Please, take your seat. Please take your seat! There is a member I have recognised who is on the floor. Please take your seat!
Ms L MATHYS: But I am rising on a point of order. I am rising on a point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is on the floor.
Ms L MATHYS: I was rising on a point of order. This is not a follow-up question. I am rising on a point of order. I have been standing and you have not recognised me, Chairperson.
It is a response to our hon Chief Whip’s comment about the EFF’s not submitting questions. I have a right to give an explanation and clarification of that. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: No!
Ms L MATHYS: No, I do.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys. [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: The Chief Whip is misleading the House ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys!
Ms L MATHYS: ... and as a member of the EFF, I feel it needs to be clarified.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon member. I think it would help this House if you learned to listen to what other members of this House say. When you rose, I actually came to your defence and sustained your point of order. So, there is nothing that you are going to tell us which I have not called the Chief Whip to order on.
Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat.
Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, you ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat!
Ms L MATHYS: ... pre-empted what my point of order was going to be and you said we didn’t have to submit questions. We did submit questions, and that is what I want to clarify, because we cannot have the hon Chief Whip coming here and misleading the House on what the EFF has and has not done. Under Rule 50, there are explanations. When we are misquoted, we are allowed to give clarity on the matter and that is what I am standing on. But the matter has been clarified now. Thank you, Chair.
Mr B G NTHEBE
Ms L MATHYS
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Your Excellency, Mr President, you said in your response that part of the efforts by this government that you are leading is to ensure that we empower the youth and ensure that all efforts benefit them, including those who are in the most rural parts of the country. Two days ago and yesterday the Economic Development Department presented a plan, which included the fact that R4,5 billion would be channelled into youth empowerment. Is this part of the co-ordinated approach by your government to ensure that we alleviate poverty in this sector of the population, which is the youth? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, yes, yes, yes, yes. All that is part of the efforts that are addressing the plight of the youth in our country. All departments are doing what they can to ensure this, and that is why I counted a number of departments here who have very specific programmes, and who are putting in money to ensure that these programmes reach the youth in every corner of the country. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chair, I thought that you would rule on my request earlier. We had only three follow-up questions because the hon Mtileni didn’t pose a question. Thank you, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He didn’t. He was given the chance, and he didn’t use it, but used up the time he would have used to ask that question. I am sorry, but the fourth supplementary was given to hon Nthebe. There will be other supplementary questions.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 2)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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Question 2:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, on 29 April 2015 South Africa provided a report to the SADC region on the steps it had taken as a means of bringing an end to attacks against fellow Africans and other foreign nationals living in South Africa. This took place at the Extraordinary Meeting of the SADC Summit of Heads of State and Government in Harare, Zimbabwe. This report was well received by the SADC Extraordinary Summit, as reflected in the final communiqué, which noted among other things that:
While condemning the attacks, Summit commended the measures that the Government of South Africa has put in place and resolved to work together to deal with the situation and ensure it does not recur.
When these attacks on foreign nationals started, our government directed all South African ambassadors and high commissioners on our continent to brief their host governments and countries. Our Ministers also briefed all ambassadors representing different countries in South Africa. If necessary, South Africa will utilise bilateral engagements to explain its position further. We will also present a report to the United Nations and the African Union on the recent attacks on foreign nationals.
We are grateful to the African continent and the international community as a whole for the understanding manner in which the unfortunate and unacceptable incidents were received. Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]
Ms B S MASANGO
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
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Ms B S MASANGO: Thank you, Chair. Hon President, on 30 April 2015 a statement on the recent attacks on foreign nationals delivered to the African Union’s Peace and Security Council acknowledged that there were poor socioeconomic conditions, such as low wages, high levels of unemployment, rural underdevelopment, poverty and a lack of amenities. Poor socioeconomic conditions had already been identified as a driver of attacks on foreign nationals in a range of detailed reports published in the aftermath of the 2008 wave of xenophobic attacks.
I would like to know, hon President: With South Africa’s unemployment rate standing at over 24% and more than half of the population living under the poverty line, what have you done since taking office to address the country’s poor socioeconomic situation identified as a driver of attacks on foreign nationals? Thank you, Chair.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, with regard to the discussions and the statement that the member referred to, the issue of clashes and of actions taken against foreign nationals is a global phenomenon. I think we should know that. I know that there are people who want to think that this is a South African problem. In fact, I was with heads of state in Russia just some days ago and we were able to talk about this. They were saying this occurs everywhere, including in Europe. At times it is driven in the main by the economic challenges of countries.
Those who watched the interview where the Minister of Arts and Culture was with Prof Pitika Ntuli and Prof Kole Omotoso from Nigeria discussing this very matter, will know this. He quoted figures in regard to what has happened in Africa, where foreign nationals were driven out of countries. I am just raising the issue so that people do not think that it is a South African problem.
It is in part driven by poverty. If you look particularly at the two incidents in the country, you will realise that that was evidence that came afterwards. So, there is poverty and it differs in degree in the world, particularly among poor people.
Perhaps in South Africa it could be influenced by certain historical factors that we need to recognise at all material times, because if we forget them it would be like forgetting where we come from.
Precisely because of our history, since 1994 we have adopted programmes to address the problems of the poorest of the poor. That is why we have the biggest social programme in the country, which addresses the issues of about 16 million people. They have been helped to be able to have something to put on the table. The programmes of government, which are in the main pro-poor, are actually addressing the issue of poverty.
The World Food Programme has actually recognised that. There is a report that South Africa and Ghana have done very well on the continent in alleviating poverty. In other words, our programmes are recognised. I know that people in South Africa who have exaggerated views do not recognise that, but the reality is that the organisations that look at poverty in the world have given that recognition.
Our programmes are working – they are addressing the issue of poverty. That is the reason why we provide houses to the poor who cannot buy houses. These are programmes that address that kind of issue. Therefore, we are satisfied that our programmes are going on very well. We are dealing with the issue of unemployment. Unemployed youth, for example, are part of the programme. Therefore, we are satisfied that our programmes that we are working on do work and are recognised by international organisations. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mnu L P M NZIMANDE
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu L P M NZIMANDE: Sihlalo, Nxamalala siyakubingelela futhi sibonga amazwi akho owethule ezinsukwini ezidlule ukweluleka abantu boMbuso waseBurundi ukuthi benze kanjani ukuphendula ezinkingeni ababhekene nazo mayelana namalungiselelo okhetho abaluphakamisile.
English:
Mr President, for over a 100 years our movement has been holding to the position that we are part of Africa. Our commitment is to creating a better Africa and a better world. I would like to hear your comments with regard to what we are doing.
We know that part of what we are doing in the creation of a better world includes our commitment to the African Renaissance and to participation in peace keeping, economic development through bilateral agreements, and various other related activities on the continent to make sure that we are part of bettering lives.
This is something you have just responded to in the previous question in relation to poverty programmes in our country, but our policy is the betterment of Africa and trying to deal with issues that are faced by our fellow sisters and brothers in Africa. These issues are economically related, poverty-related and inequality. We have also subscribed to the 2063 vision of an equal society in Africa.
How much do all of these add in our fight against xenophobia in South Africa? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, we are part of Africa, which we have been and always will be, and therefore we are part of the programmes that Africa discusses and works on, whether they are for peace, mediation, or contributing to making plans to ensure that Africa is able to fulfil its desires.
For example, we are involved in the issue of expanding economic possibilities by being part of establishing infrastructure. This is the massive infrastructure on the continent, to connect Africa and for it to engage in intratrade. Also, Africa is working slowly towards softening the borders, partly because we are the same people. Therefore we are part of that.
When we say we are working to change the quality of the lives of our people, we are working to make Africa a better continent. Also, we are part of those who are contributing to a better world. We are part of it. That is why, in addition to being part of the United Nations, we are also part of Brics, and we are establishing relations with a number of countries. We have representatives, and South Africa is one of the countries that have representatives in the world. I think it is one of the biggest, which indicates how we are implementing our policies.
So, as a country in Africa that belongs to a number of organisations like the G20, we do not fail at all material times to raise the issues of the continent. We do not speak on behalf of South Africa only. This is what we do at all material times to emphasise the sentiment that we are part of Africa, and that we feel what is happening in Africa.
That is why, for example, we were able to pronounce on what was happening in Burundi. We believe it affects poor Africans who are not in authority, and that is why we are saying those in authority should act in such a manner that Burundi is not once again plunged into war, because that is going to delay the process of moving forward towards a prosperous Africa.
So, we are part of it and I am happy that you raised the issue, because South Africa is indeed part of the leading countries in working for the unity of the continent and working together. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N P MOKGOSI
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
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Ms N P MOKGOSI: Thank you, Chair. Mr President, it is you who made disparaging remarks about roads in Malawi not so long ago, to supposedly show that South Africans are superior to other Africans. It is your son who a few weeks ago made calls for foreigners to leave the country. It is you who, after the brutal murder of Emmanuel Sithole, claimed that he was not in the country legally, inferring that ... [Interjections.] Give me a chance! You can howl as much as you want; you are not intimidating me.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member! Hon member! Hon member Mokgosi, usually – and it is a convention which the EFF has not respected in the Fifth Parliament – a new member is accorded all the respect attached to a maiden speech. The new member is also not expected to refer to any controversial issues which will make the other members attack. So, please stick to addressing the President via the Chair – you don’t speak directly to members.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Thank you, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: And please remember that you must come to the point of concluding your supplementary question within the two minutes, and you have one minute and 11 seconds left.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Thank you, Chairperson. That is noted.
This was inferring that perhaps it is okay to murder those who are in the country illegally. At your instructions our armed forces are playing Big Brother to other African countries.
Now, my question to you is: As a leader who made, or protected those who made, these inflammatory remarks, when are you going to take personal responsibility for the violence that has ensued, and personally apologise to South Africans and the rest of the African continent for your misguided views? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, firstly, hon Chairperson, I don’t know what my misguided views are. I wish I could hear what they are very clearly so that I can respond. Otherwise, I am just going to say a lot of things. What are my misguided views on the continent? Could the hon member clarify?
He talked about my son. My son is a man and he has his own views. He can deal with him. If he wrote an article, he could respond to that. [Applause.] I think he knows very well that I did not make that statement; it was Muziwoxolo Edward Zuma. If he wants to ask a question, he should direct it to Edward. Why ask me? Why does he not respond to another youth? [Laughter.] They were not my views.
I just want to know what these misguided views are so that I can respond to the member very clearly?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon President, the member has a chance to put only one question. You have responded to the question as I understand it. Therefore, we will pass on to the next question instead.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Okay.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The last person on this question is the hon Mlambo. Do you have a point of order, hon Khawula?
Mr M KHAWULA: Yes, hon Chairperson. I just want to know if the President’s son will deal with the hon member man to man or man to woman? [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We must thank the hon Khawula for bringing tempers down. Hon Vawda, is that a point of order?
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I am indeed standing on a point of order. The hon member is, as we can all see, a very, very attractive lady. I do believe that the hon President owes the young lady an apology for referring to her as a “he”, instead of a “she”. I don’t think it is a matter that should be taken lightly.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The point of order is taken.
Mnu E M MLAMBO
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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IsiZulu:
Mnu E M MLAMBO: Sihlalo, Mongameli Siyabonga; zizwakele izimpendulo. Owami umbuzo Mongameli, ...
USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Ngicela usondele embobhweni.
Mnu E M MLAMBO: Owami umbuzo ubhekene nenkinga eyaba khona ngenxa yale nxushunxushu yokucwaswa kwabantu bokufika kuleli, ukuthi ubudlelwane bethu nezwe laseNigeria buke bathi ukuphazamiseka ngenxa yokuhamba kwenxusa laseNigeria libuyela ezweni lakubo. Owami umbuzo-ke uthi: Ingabe leso simo siye salungiswa yini uhulumeni wethu? Ingabe leli nxusa laseNigeria libuye labuya kwaba khona ukuxoxisana? Ngiyabonga.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before the President responds, hon Mlambo, the principal question deals with repairing relations within SADC. Nigeria is not a member of SADC, although it is member of the nations of our continent. In that respect, it is up to the President whether he wants to treat this as a supplementary to this question.
IsiZulu:
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKI: Cha, ngizowuphendula. Ubuhlobo phakathi kweNingizimu Afrika neNigeria buqinile njengoba baziwa; abuzange buphazamiseke ngenxa yale nxushunxushu. Ngemva kokuba kube khona ukuhamba kwenxusa laseNigeria, kuthiwa libizwe ekhaya, eqinisweni owuMongameli lo ophumayo wangifuna waze wangithola ngocingo, exolisa ukuthi kudume ukuthi babize inxusa, wathi yena njengoMongameli akakwazi lokho. Futhi bekungelona nenxusa, bekuyisisebenzi nje sombuso ebesikhona la, sengathi kukhona omunye oyisikhulu sombuso obize lo ngoba befuna ukuzoxoxisana ngokuthile. UMongameli akakwazi lokho, empeleni usazothathela leso sikhulu izinyathelo, ukusho lokhu etshela mina ngqo. Lokho kuyakutshela-ke ukuthi ubudlelwane bethu abukaze bonakale, nokuthi kuthiwe kubizwe inxusa, kwakuwukuhlanekezelwa kolwazi. Ayizange ibe khona into enjalo. Ngakho-ke sasingekho isidingo sokuba sikhathazeke ngobuhlobo bala mazwe, busamile nje buqinile. Ngiyabonga.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 3)
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 2)
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Question 3:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I met with South African stakeholders in April. They included leaders from various sectors, amongst others, faith-based organisations, business, labour, youth, community, creative industries, sports, children and professional associations.
We discussed the underlying reasons behind the attacks on foreign nationals in our country, especially brothers and sisters from the continent, in order to find common solutions. The meeting was fruitful. We were united in our condemnation of the attacks and in the need to work together to ensure that there was no recurrence of the attacks in our country.
We also felt it would be important to meet with organisations representing foreign nationals who live in South Africa. The meeting was helpful and constructive and created an enhanced understanding of the situation on the ground and the challenges faced by immigrants in the country.
They shared their understanding of why they had left their own countries and come to South Africa. Representatives of foreign nationals explained that because of South Africa’s policies on migration, they found South Africa to be a safe destination. They explained why, no matter where they came from, they passed various countries to come to South Africa. They said that in other countries they did not feel safe, but they felt safe in South Africa – they knew that they were protected. They also acknowledged the fact that it was not necessarily the xenophobia that was dominant; it was other factors that caused the attacks.
Perhaps for the benefit of members, let me say this. In 2008, you will remember, there were attacks which were more prevalent in Gauteng. When I met the community in Tshwane, we found out that there were two elements that had caused the problem. The first factor was that it was actually more the criminal elements who wanted to loot, and therefore created the situation at the time. When I was on the East Rand, I found that the other factor was that workers were angry with companies that were underpaying foreigners, particularly Mozambicans, which was undermining their work as unions. So, these were two issues. You will realise that nobody said, arising from these two issues, “Let us attack foreigners just for the sake of doing so, because we hate them.”
In January, as you know, there was another attack in Soweto. The cause for that was that one of the foreign nationals, who owned a shop, shot a young man who was breaking into his shop and killed him, and that is what sparked off the attack. In the last one, a factory owner had a conflict with his workers, who were on strike. Instead of resolving the issue, he employed foreigners in place of his employees, so they attacked them because of what the workers usually call “scabbing”. That is what sparked it off.
That is why we have been arguing that we are not generally xenophobic as South Africans – there may be a few but not many. We have been living alongside people for years. Foreigners are to be found in all our communities, so it is specific incidents that lead to this. I just thought that it was important to take this opportunity to explain this, because we have the information. These are issues we were discussing with the representatives of the foreigners.
I emphasised in the meeting that lines of communication that had been opened with government should be utilised to ensure continuous engagement. I assigned the Inter-Ministerial Task Team on Migration to engage stakeholder groups to find lasting solutions and to promote peaceful coexistence.
I must emphasise that we value the presence of foreign nationals in our country, as many bring much needed skills into the country. It is also important to say that many others come as business people to invest, or they come as tourists, and their presence is much appreciated. It is in any case a normal movement around the globe that neighbours go to neighbouring countries for a variety of activities.
We also have a responsibility to protect refugees and asylumseekers, and we will continue to do so. The Inter-Ministerial Committee on Migration has been tasked with improving the implementation of the country’s migration policies, while also ensuring the safety of all in the country, including foreign nationals.
Amongst work carried out thus far to respond to the recent attacks is an anticrime cleanup operation called Operation Fiela.
IsiZulu:
Ukusiza abangazi ukuthi “fiela” kusho ukuthi shanela. Kukhona abangasazi isiSotho.
English:
The operation is aimed at ensuring that no area in the country remains under the control of crime syndicates and drug dealers. Operation Fiela is also aimed at ensuring that all traders trade legally, which is why the police target, among others, trade in contraband.
We wish to emphasise that while working to create a hospitable and welcoming atmosphere for foreign nationals, government will also not tolerate illegal migrants. All people should be in the country legally and be documented, as required in every country. The laws of the country must be respected. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B G NTHEBE
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr B G NTHEBE: Thank you so much, hon Chair. Thank you, Your Excellency. Mr President, you said earlier that we are first and foremost part of Africa, before we even become South Africans, even though we have footprints throughout the international community. It is encouraging to hear that all the stakeholders that you convened are committed to a peaceful and stable environment in order for us to be able to have policies that are people-friendly, as you mentioned.
But are the ministerial team that you assembled processing all the factors that have come out of that process of engagement, so that we are clearing away all the issues that are contaminating the environment that we want to build? Thank you, Chair.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, that is part of what the ministerial team is doing – it is co-ordinating. The departments that are carrying out this operation are part of that ministerial team. The plan does not just end with what is happening now. The plan is long-term. They are going to be doing a number of things to ensure that the conditions that lead to these kinds of attacks being sparked off from time to time are eliminated. So this is part of it.
If you take, for example, what has been happening, everybody has been saying that the drug activities in the country have increased. There are centres that people are saying are known, and now those centres are going to be searched. The operation will deal with them and deal with whatever is illegal in those centres in whatever place. Some people have been saying there are areas that have been taken over by drug lords, etc. This is the part of the operation that is dealing with that.
I am emphasising this because I have heard that some people are complaining about Operation Fiela. I do not understand that, because they were complaining about drug lords, and they knew where they were. Now that we are taking action against them, they are still complaining. I think that is almost like the saying among the peasants, “God decided not to listen to us, because when it was sunny we said we wanted rain, and then when it was raining we said we wanted the sun. We are saying that there is crime in this country, and now that the security forces are dealing with it, why do we complain?
I think that just for the benefit of those who say so, we should be able to give leadership and say that the country is dealing with the situation. Crime is too high and we need to do something about it, and people must not complain. Re fiela ntlo [We are sweeping the house] in the country, not so? Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S G THOBEJANE
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr S G THOBEJANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon President, I think the problem in South Africa is Zumaphobia. People can’t even see when you are doing better. Because of the fact that you, President Zuma, cut your international trip short during the time of xenophobic violence, we were all supposed to say that you had done all that you were able to do as a human being. But now we are continuing from where we were. Time and again we see only the opposite of all that you are doing.
I want to say, President Zuma, that we are very comfortable with what you are doing in managing the crisis in this country, and you need to continue doing that ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, ...
Setswana:
Eh! kgosi, tshwara ga nnyane.
Mr V E MTILENI: Is he giving a speech or putting a question? [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, members of this House have two minutes to get to their supplementary questions. In fact, very frequently in the House you do exactly what the hon Thobejane has been doing. He still has a minute to go before I can rule that he get to his question. Hon Thobejane, you may continue.
Mr S G THOBEJANE: Thank you, Chairperson. I am saying, President, that the majority of the citizens of this country are very comfortable with the effort you are putting in. Do not worry about the minority; worry about the majority of the citizens. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your question?
Mr S G THOBEJANE: My question is this. You are holding these consultations with stakeholders outside the country. Will you also be able to meet with traditional leaders and check how far they are in this challenge that we are confronted with? Thank you very much.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, yes, I think that as part of the consultations we will certainly consult with the traditional leaders. Fortunately we have them organised in a specific way. For instance, we have the national and provincial houses. We will certainly continue to discuss the issue with them. However, we will also get to the areas where the traditional leaders are, hoping that if we talk to the houses, then the message will go out.
However, we still want to interact because in South Africa, unlike in many countries, there are foreigners among us everywhere. When we talk about foreigners, we should work together, we should unite and we should not hate them.
However, it is important that we also talk to the traditional system. Let us say that people come into certain areas, and I know that in some areas they are practising this already. I know that, for example, there are specific areas in Limpopo where, if somebody arrives, he is reported to the authorities and that information is taken to the traditional leader. There is no one who goes in there that is not known. That experience is very important because we can even apply it in urban areas and enquire in a street who is a foreigner. Then that person must be reported.
We need that kind of experience, so that it can enhance our efforts to try to bring harmony in that manner. We will certainly be consulting with the traditional leaders. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M KHAWULA
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Your Excellency, Mr President, you have referred to issues pertaining to both illegal and legal immigrants.
Hon President, almost half of the refugee reception centres in the country have closed down. These are centres that assist immigrants in respect of their proper documentation when they seek the status of being recognised, and also those who seek to renew their documentation.
Now, there is Operation Fiela on the one hand and on the other hand this difficulty in respect of the immigrants’ accessing assistance so that they can get proper documentation.
Will South Africa then not be accused or be found guilty of flouting the international law of nonrefoulement, to which South Africa is a signatory, if this is happening where on the one hand there is Operation Fiela and on the other hand there is difficulty in respect of accessing assistance to be recognised as an immigrant.
Lastly, I am not talking about Operation Fiela in respect of “shanelaring” [sweeping] crime, but I am only referring to the issues pertaining to immigration. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No. There is no conflict between Operation Fiela and regularising the legality or the status of the people who are here.
On Operation Fiela, if we as government found somebody who did not have papers, that person would have to interact with the centres that help regularise this. If that person was here illegally and had no papers, and they were supposed to go, that proper action would be taken, like in any other country.
Those who come to specific centres to ask for papers and explain their case are dealt with in the normal course of events. The issue here is that we realise that there are great numbers of those who do not have legal papers. If they just sit and do not make an effort to apply, why would they sit without any papers?
So, as a country we need to take action to ensure that everything is properly dealt with. There is no contradiction. South Africa will never be accused. What South Africa is doing is correcting the situation so that every person who is here has legal papers. Those who do not have them should explain that. If they can’t explain it, they can’t be here and we cannot be accused. It is normal practise throughout the world. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S J MOHAI
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr S J MOHAI: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr President, as we celebrate 60 years of the Freedom Charter ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it a point of order, hon Londt?
Mr J J LONDT: Chair, I just want to check this. This is a session of questions addressed to the President. Three quarters of these questions are being asked by ANC members. However, this is not a platform to create sweetheart questions for the President. We as the opposition and the ANC need to hold the President to account. Therefore, it is not fair that three out of every four questions go to ANC members in this House. Then when a question goes to an opposition member, like the EFF, they actually waste their question time. [Laughter.]
Please, can we get clarity on how the spread of questions is going to be handled ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order members! I am trying to listen.
Mr J J LONDT: ... so that all political parties have a chance to engage with the President on each question and that he gives answers to all political parties and not just one party, and there is a token question to another party.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is a question to me, Mr President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Okay.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The point that the member is raising is a little bit of both sides. The fact of the matter is that questions come in and they put in the order in which they come in. The Rules say to us that we must confine ourselves to a certain number. The balance that we need to find is that, although it is a case of first come, first served, we must also spread the questions across the parties.
The other lesson that comes out of the point of order that the hon Londt has put, is that when all of us get the chance to ask supplementary questions, we must make good use of it.
So, hon Londt, I am not dismissing your point of order. We will take that into consideration every time.
Hon Mathys, are you rising on a point of order?
Ms L MATHYS: I am, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, ma’am.
Ms L MATHYS: Chair, on a point of order: Our hon DA member said that the EFF had wasted their questions. I would like to ask him to withdraw that comment. [Laughter.]
Secondly, the hon Mtileni rose on a question of privilege. He should still have been allowed to ask his follow-up question, and I did not rise on a point of order then because I wanted him to do that. [Interjections.] So, it was not a wasted question. He had a question. We had a question to ask.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. Thank you, ma’am.
Ms L MATHYS: The point of privilege was a totally separate question. I would like the hon member to withdraw his comment about the EFF ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys.
Ms L MATHYS: ... wasting their questions. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys, the hon Londt is not out of order. The hon Mtileni was given the chance to ask a question, and he then did not. It is on record. We will refer you to the records of this House and to Hansard. The hon Londt is not out of order. He was accorded the chance because I had recognised him for a supplementary question and he chose not to ask it, and that is the truth. Hon Mohai, you have the floor.
Mr S J MOHAI: Thanks very much, Chairperson. Mr President, as we celebrate 60 years of the Freedom Charter and 72 years of the African Claims, the ANC is at the forefront of the creation of a united Africa as one of the continents in the world full of possibilities.
Mr President, you have addressed the threats of these xenophobic attacks on the standing of our country, South Africa, on Africa and on the world over. What do you envisage as the role of Members of Parliament in their communities in this regard? Thank you, Chair.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, yes, South Africa has always stood for Africa. It is not a new thing. There is in particular the oldest organisation on this continent, the ANC. You will recall that even before the formation of the ANC, I think in about 1906 or so, one of its founding members, Pixley ka Isaka Seme wrote an essay about Africa which won awards. He was talking about Africa as one entity. That in a sense has informed this oldest organisation over the years.
We were there when the Organisation of African Unity was formed, even before we were free. So, we have always pursued unity on the continent, saying that the issues of the continent affect all Africans. When we, for example, raised the issue of the Bill of Rights in the early 1940s, we were looking at South Africans, but in the main at Africans on the continent as well.
You referred to the Freedom Charter. I am sure that it is part of the contribution that this oldest organisation has made to bringing clearer thinking and clarifying the position of South Africans. So, we were there. It is not just that we joined others, but that we were among the founders of these ideas on the continent, and we are among the implementers today.
Therefore, we will continue to do so and that is why the issue of the attacks that you are talking about do not represent the thinking, aspirations and feelings of South Africans – we believe that we are Africans, we are part of them, and we have made a contribution to ensure that Africa is together.
That is why we are even there in programmes dealing with conflicts. We are also in programmes dealing with the economy, together through the African Union today. So, we are very proud of our record in regard to the country and our political outlook, which we hope will influence other political entities towards broader thinking, because if the thinking is narrow, then the party won’t last too long. It will disappear. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 4)
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 3)
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Question 4:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I received the report of the Farlam Commission of Inquiry on 31 March 2015. I also received a briefing from Judge Ian Farlam subsequent to the delivery of the report. This is an important report, which needs careful consideration so that the findings and recommendations can be used to ensure that such an incident does not happen again in our country. The report will be released to the public as soon as I have completed processing the findings and recommendations. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Chair, I thank His Excellency the President. General public opinion and numerous legal views are that senior police officials, including the former Police Minister, the hon Mthethwa, and the National Police Commissioner, Commissioner Phiyega, be investigated for murder. They also argue that Lonmin executives should be charged as accomplices, together with the Deputy President, the hon Cyril Ramaphosa.
Are these opinions and views consistent with the recommendations of the Marikana Commission? If not, how different are they? If so, can you share with this House how you intend to implement these recommendations? Can you give the assurance to the citizens of this country that the report will be released in its original form, and that there will be no delays in the full implementation of the recommendations thereof? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I thought my answer was very clear. I said I had received the report. I am looking at the report and the recommendations. I am not talking about loose talk in the streets. I am talking about a report from a commission which has very specific issues, including the names that the hon member is talking about. So, I don’t know why the hon member is now asking what I am going to do, because what they are saying is just making allegations against people. He does not know what the report says.
The report does not talk about the rumours about Marikana. It talks about an inquiry by a commission chaired by a judge, with very clear findings and recommendations. I have said that once I have completed it, I will release the report and I will also say what I am doing about the recommendations. So, I thought I had answered all of what the hon member was asking. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, I did not get a clear answer from the President, so I am going to ask it in this way. Mr President, reports indicate that our National Police Commissioner, Riah Phiyega, is to a large degree to blame for the events which took place on 16 August 2012. If the Farlam Commission of Inquiry’s report finds that the commissioner is, indeed, not fit to hold office – as the reports may indicate – will you offer her a golden handshake, deploy her to another office, or have her fired, which should be the right thing to do?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, your question is speculative really. You are asking the President to speculate. You are asking the President to speculate, but I’m not stopping the President if he wishes to respond to you. However, it is speculative.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, it is not speculation. I said, “if it indicates”, so it is a matter of principle. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is speculative, hon member. It is speculative. Hon President, you may or may not respond to it. In terms of our Rules, that question is speculative.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No, I’m not going to indulge in the speculation. [Applause.]
Mr M RAYI
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M RAYI: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Your Excellency, alongside the Farlam Commission of Inquiry, the caring ANC government has been involved in programmes and interventions that seek to address the social challenges faced by the people of Marikana. I would like to ask the hon President perhaps to tell us what the programmes are that the ANC government has been involved in to address these social challenges. I thank you.
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: That is another question. It is not consistent with the question that I asked. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Gaehler is right. Hon Rayi, you are asking the President to give a programme based on the aftermath. You are not asking the President to deal with the matter of the report which he has received and which he has yet to make public. In that case, I agree with the hon Gaehler, hon Rayi. I think that you are asking a new question, and therefore I will pass on to the hon Labuschagne.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chairperson and President, the people of South Africa do have the perception that you tend to ignore recommendations, as the recommendations of the Public Protector ...
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Can the hon member speak into the microphone so that I can hear?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, yes. Stand closer to the microphone.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: So, Chair, I would like to ask the President: On the basis of trust in this country, what guarantee do you give this Council today that you will not only make the report public, but actually act on the recommendations of that report to ensure that justice for the victims and their families will prevail? [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I have answered that question, hon Chair. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, may I raise a point of order? The hon President said in response to the previous two questions that he would make the report public. I asked what guarantee he gives the Council that he will act on the recommendations? These are two different things. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! Order! Hon Labuschagne, your question has been responded to. The inferred question in your question is that the President must give guarantees. He has already said that as soon as he has finished reading the report and the recommendations, he will make them public. [Interjections.]
Are you rising on a point of order, hon Mtileni? Are you rising on a point of order?
Mr V E MTILENI: Yes, hon Chair. I am rising on a point of order. I think the President is dodging here. [Interjections.] You see, the ANC members don’t want to hear about the Nkandla issue. I think this matter is going to be the same thing, because he has been dilly-dallying about answering the Nkandla issue. [Interjections.]
In addition, we do not believe certain things. That is why we insist on hearing when the President is going to release the report to the public. Since the dawn of democracy we have had several commissions where millions of rands have been spent, yet we have never heard of any commission’s report being released to the public. That is why we want to know when the President is going to release the report to the public. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you.
Mr V E MTILENI: I think we ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni ... [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: No, it’s not just a question of releasing it, but implementing it, because here we are sitting with the Nkandla issue, which is a bitter pill to swallow. [Interjections.] Yes!
IsiZulu:
Ngicela uhlale phansi, baba.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, the President is taking ...
Mr V E MTILENI: You’ll never scare us, man. Why are you ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, please ... [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: You are leading us nowhere, man!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni! This House is in order! [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni, this House is in order. It is not a House that is going to have members speaking across one another.
You stood on a point of order. We accorded you respect and an opportunity. We want to respond to your point of order, which is that you insist that you be given the date and time of the release of the report. I am going to give the President the space to respond to that. Mr President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Chair. Your hon member seems to have a bee in his bonnet about Nkandla. [Laughter.] Every time he stands up, he talks about Nkandla. Perhaps I can see him outside and deal with the issues, because that’s not the issue at the moment. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] You know, from the beginning he has said, “Nkandla.” At the end, before he says anything else, he says, “Nkandla.” [Laughter.]
IsiZulu:
Emhlabeni kaNkotheni.
English:
With regard to the issue, I cannot give a date. That is speculation. I am reading the report. As soon as I have finished reading the report and looking at the recommendations, I will release the report and indicate what my attitude to the recommendations is. Now he wants me to lie and give a date. Do I know when I will finish? I will be misleading Parliament. [Interjections.] I will be able to deal with the issue ...
IsiZulu:
Ubani lo okhuluma ngemuva ngikhuluma?
USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Myeke, myeke Mongameli.
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKI: Hawu laba bantu abahloniphi laba! Abahloniphi la bantu bakho.
English:
So, I am saying I will finish the report, release the report and also release what I am doing with the recommendations.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yebo. [Yes.]
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
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Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, this is a very serious case. At one stage you told me that we fought hard for democracy in South Africa, and I agree with you entirely. However, this is not a democracy that works only for some people. It must work for all the people in South Africa.
The Marikana issue must work for all the people in South Africa. Our democracy is supreme, and when the hon Labuschagne asks, “Will the President deal with it?” she has the right to do so.
The President has now, finally, said he will deal with it ... [Interjections.] ... and he will tell us his attitude on the matter. We are not asking for his attitude; we are asking for law and order and leadership in this country. That is what we need.
We have too many reports in front of the President that need urgent attention. This report must be dealt with, and it must be dealt with decisively. That’s the point of order. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! Order, members! Hon members, for any of us the law requires that with any report or matter that comes before us and which we must read, in that reading we must also consider.
I do not wish to speak on behalf of the head of state. I want to come in on the interpretation of the hon Labuschagne in what she says she understood, President, when you said you would say what your attitude to the report is. What irks the hon Van Lingen is the attitude when the President says he will say what his attitude to the recommendations is.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, thank you. I used the hon President’s terminology, his saying he will tell us what his attitude is. The question remains: When will it be dealt with? How long is the period? Why must we take so long? [Interjections.] It goes on forever! There are a lot of reports lying with him and with Cabinet that have to be sorted out.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne! Hon Labuschagne! [Interjections.] I am sorry, ma’am. I am sorry. My apologies, hon Labuschagne. [Interjections.] Hon Van Lingen, the question of when and when and when has been asked three times. The President has responded.
Hon Dlamini, were you rising on a point of order?
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I just want to check if it is parliamentary to be called “voting cows”. The hon Mtileni has just called us “voting cows”. If it is not parliamentary, can he withdraw that? [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Let me answer that one, hon Chair. [Interjections.] You see, if you are mentally okay ... [Laughter.] If you are mentally okay, ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, I did not give you the floor. [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Can I finish?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no. I did not give you the floor to respond. [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon members! It would help us if we behaved like adults and public representatives.
Now and then Parliament comes up with words or phrases which are unparliamentary. As I sit here and preside today, hon Dlamini, I am not sure whether “voting cows” is on that list. I want to beg this House for leave to enable me to go through this and to come back on the matter.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: However, it is always better, hon members, to treat each other with respect in the House. President, we proceed.
Are you rising on a point of order?
Ms L MATHYS: I am, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, ma’am.
Ms L MATHYS: Chair, on a point of order: The hon President responded to the hon Mtileni’s comment by talking about taking it outside, and his obsession with Nkandla. Was that a threat? I just don’t know if it is very parliamentary for the President to say he will respond to an issue outside. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ma’am, I cannot rule on this matter. There is nothing offensive about it. It is up to the two hon members whether the hon Mtileni chooses to avail himself of the invitation or not. Therefore I am not ruling on it and that is final. [Interjections.] Sit down, hon Mtileni. Sit down! Take your seat. [Interjections.] You are instructed to take your seat now! We proceed, hon members, to Question 5. Order!
Are you rising on a point of order, ma’am?
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Yes, Chair. On a point of order: The hon Vawda asked the hon President to apologise ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: And I ruled him out of order.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: Yes. I would also like the hon President ... [Interjections.] I withdraw my fingers. I withdraw! I withdraw! [Laughter.] I would also like to ask the President ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no, no. You are rising on a point of order.
Ms N P MOKGOSI: On a point of order, yes. I would like the President to withdraw having said ...
IsiZulu:
... la bantu abahloniphi.
English:
Respect is not demanded; it is earned! [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I do not want to entertain any more deliberate and frivolous questions. The hon Vawda raised the matter of a “he” or a “she”. That point, we said, we acknowledged. We acknowledged it because I may call you “he” tomorrow and you may call me “he” today. It is not deliberate, and the hon Vawda knows that. That is why I said, “We note that”.
I want to proceed. I want to proceed to Question 5. Question 5 was asked by the hon Suka. I have been informed that the hon Makue is responsible for the question.
Hon Mtileni, I really think that you ... [Interjections.] I do not know what you are up to. [Interjections.] This is the last time! [Interjections.] Hon members, you are my witnesses. This is the last time I will take a point of order from him today.
Mr V E MTILENI: Yes. You know, the hon President is scaring me. He says he will deal with me. [Laughter.] He reminds me of the NA sitting where we were jostled out by security. I don’t know if he means that kind of dealing with me, or something else. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, may I ask you now to please take your seat? I will go back to the Hansard. [Interjections.] I will go to the Hansard. Hon members! Hon members, I am ruling! I will go through the Hansard. If the President used the words, “deal with” you, I will come back to you and rule.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 5)
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Question 5:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, the SADC Secretariat has been asked to prepare the action plan and to fully cost the industrial strategy, and to present such an action plan at the next SADC summit in August 2015.
The strategy seeks to produce major economic and technological transformation in SADC countries and the region in order to increase growth and enhance the competitive advantages of the economies of the SADC region.
Our own Industrial Policy Action Plan is informed by our foreign policy, which makes our continent, Africa, the primary focus of our country politically and economically. Therefore, South Africa sees immense benefit from the direction that SADC is taking, as it will create more opportunities as we move ahead with the further industrialisation programme inside the country.
The pending establishment of a free-trade area on the continent is another great opportunity for South Africa, as it means a larger market for our goods and services, improved employment prospects for all on the continent, and a better life for the African people. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr E MAKUE
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
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Mr E MAKUE: Chairperson, I thank the hon President very much for the reply. We heard the Budget Vote speech from Minister Ebrahim Patel yesterday, and in that he placed a lot of emphasis on industrialisation.
Mr President, the question is related to the earlier conversation that we had. Are the members of SADC, particularly the heads of state, looking at the question of industrialisation and how it can contribute to ensuring that citizens of a country no longer have to leave their country for economic reasons, as there will be development in all the countries in the SADC region? Thank you, Chair.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, yes, the leaders of SADC countries are looking at industrialising the region, the Southern African Development Community. In other words, they are looking at a situation where all countries will specifically and deliberately be helped to create industries.
That will immediately mean that citizens in those countries are not going to leave those countries in search of employment, but will have employment in the countries. It will bring that benefit and expand the economy, because the citizens in those countries, who will now be employed, will have money to utilise to change the quality of their lives, and therefore the economies will grow.
What is happening at the moment is that many of these countries receive goods from South Africa only. It’s a one-sided kind of economic activity. This will balance it so that all countries will benefit. They will be able to produce and sell, and they will also be able to buy what will be coming from other countries.
In other words, when SADC as a region integrates with other African regions, as we are in the process of doing, putting together three economic regions of the five in the African Union, we should be interacting with a much stronger region that has the economic muscle to be able to do trade. Therefore the citizens of the region will benefit. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms L MATHYS
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
|
Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, some of the SADC member states have initiated processes, despite hostile reactions from the West, to gain greater ownership of their countries’ natural resources ... [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Sorry, Chairperson. Could she speak more loudly please?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are not audible, ma’am. Come closer to the microphone please.
Ms L MATHYS: Sorry, my throat is not clear after all the feisty debating in the House today. [Interjections.] Okay, this is better.
Some of the SADC member states have initiated processes, despite hostile reactions from the West, to gain greater ownership of their countries’ natural resources and to stimulate domestic industrialisation, coupled with reasonable economic growth. They are in a better position today to contribute meaningfully to the SADC industrial strategy.
Our economic growth is stagnant, Mr President, and likely to be leaning towards regression. What is South Africa doing in its industrial policy to gain greater ownership of natural resources, specifically in the mining industry, in order to stimulate domestic industrialisation and to be able to contribute meaningfully to SADC?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, please. The question, hon members, is meant primarily to be heard by the House, but most importantly also by the person to whom it is posed. If you make your conversations louder - and on this side, these two rows, you have been conversing loudly - then the rest of the House will not hear. Ke a kopa, ndiyacela. [I’m asking.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, unfortunately I couldn’t hear the first part; I would have loved to comment on that as well. I hope I heard the last part correctly, in regard to what we are doing as a country, as we industrialise with regard to our mineral resources. I hope I heard the question correctly. [Interjections.] Yes. Thank you very much.
Well, I think it’s a known fact that we have championed what we call beneficiation, which is in the main directed at our mineral resources. We have to change from allowing the extraction of our mineral resources to be processed outside of our country or continent, and we need to deal with it here so that we can create jobs. That is a programme we are undertaking as part of industrialisation. It is going to do a lot in terms of creating jobs for our people and also growing our economy.
That’s part of what the region itself is talking about. Those are the matters we actually discuss in the Extraordinary Summits of Heads of State, saying that we need to have specific programmes that deal with the issue of beneficiation. The Secretariat, which will be giving the report, will also indicate what the specific plans are to deal with the question of beneficiation. So, that’s what we are doing.
I would also like to say what type of industries we are creating in different countries. These are the industries that will be in keeping with the demands of the countries, as well as address the challenges that we face as a region, so to speak. So these are the matters that are going to come together in the report that will be submitted by the SADC Secretariat. Thank you.
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I’m sure the hon President is a very busy man, between covering up all the reports and the cases against him and having four wives and planning for a fifth one. However, let me quickly put my question.
Hon President, the energy crisis currently being experienced by South Africans, the challenges relating to dilapidated and unbuilt infrastructure, and the high levels of unemployment and inequality hamper the country’s economic growth outlook. Would commitments to binding international agreements, such as Strategy and Roadmap, not affect our own infrastructure backlogs adversely, as financial resources would be strained?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I’ve been busy from a young age. I fought for freedom every day ... [Applause.] ... and helped to liberate him, the hon member. I’ve always been busy, as I’m busy now. I’ve got a huge family and that makes me even busier – there’s no secret about that. [Applause.] It’s not a funny story. From my grandfather down the family was always big. It’s not a joke for you. I have been busy and I fought in the struggle, and I’m still busy developing my country. I’m not playing around. [Applause.]
What we do in regard to our economic growth and our infrastructure is partly in keeping with global development. There is no country that can develop on its own, without taking into account what is happening globally – what is happening on our continent, as well as outside of our continent. So, there is nothing that we do economically that is out of tune with what is happening in the world. Therefore, whatever is developing in the world, it’s not going to interfere with our own economic development. If anything, it will enhance it. That’s what it is. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr C J DE BEER
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
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Mr C J DE BEER: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Your Excellency, it’s very clear that this industrial action plan and policy will also lead to economic growth and create jobs. Does this industrial strategy form part of the support programmes of the Development Bank of Southern Africa?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I’m not sure whether I heard everything. There’s something I did not hear. Help me.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon De Beer, could you please repeat yourself.
Mr C J DE BEER: The actual question is: Does this industrial strategy of the region form part of the support programmes of the Development Bank of Southern Africa, seeing the new road the DBSA is taking?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Does it take into account the African Bank? [Interjections.] Oh, the African Development Bank. Okay. Incidentally, at the summit the issue of financing the industrialisation was discussed, and the development banks were specifically mentioned, including the African Development Bank and other banks, because it is going to need massive financing by whatever banks there will be. However, certainly the African Development Bank will be part of that kind of cluster of banks, particularly because it is in Africa.
Again, the secretariat will be coming back – and the financiers in particular will be coming back – with a plan regarding how we finance our industrialisation. I’m sure that will touch the bank. Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 6)
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC (Question 5)
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Question 6:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I signed performance agreements with all Cabinet Ministers following their assumption of office. The agreements are based on the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, which is derived from the National Development Plan.
The purpose of the performance agreements is to improve the performance of government, and to ensure that all Ministers and departments are clear about what needs to be done and what the targets of government are.
I am currently in the process of meeting each Minister individually to ensure that all of them are clear about the goals and my expectations regarding the performance of the departments.
Regular performance reports are provided to Cabinet and if any remedial action is required, Ministers are informed. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M KHAWULA
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon President, the question was not answered in full and I don’t know if I should proceed, because there is another part. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Oh, yes. President, the second section is the one that asks which are the five best and worst performing departments? Is that the part you are referring to?
Mr M KHAWULA: Yes, hon Chairperson, and provinces.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, I don’t gauge departments to determine which one is best and which is not. I make all of them work. That is how I view them. If there are problems, I deal with them. I have never made comparisons.
Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon President, I would like to know what the consequences are for those Ministers who do not perform.
I say this because what we have experienced in this country before is this. It might have happened before your time, or it might also have happened during your own past five years in office, that you have had a Minister or a Deputy Minister who is not performing and they have been recycled, either to the parastatals or to foreign missions.
This brings us as South Africans to the conclusion that if you do not perform there, it is okay, and you can still be recycled to another position. This means that those positions into which they are redeployed are somehow taken for granted, because nonperformers are allowed to go elsewhere and still not perform.
Are we going to see harsher consequences in respect of nonperformers? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, I don’t know how much knowledge the hon member has of the performance of individual people who have been transferred or whatever. I take it that if you talk about the outcomes, there are criteria that you use to judge people. However, if somebody is not performing in a particular area, it may be because that person is not doing what they have been trained for. It may not necessarily mean that they are just useless. I don’t know how valid the assumption is that if you are transferred, you are just useless.
In my tenure in the government I have done a number of reshuffles. I have done so having applied my mind to the matter, even when I have engaged some of the Ministers and Deputy Ministers. I have also seen that at times it is not because people are not performing, but because they are performing well, and therefore I want them to go into difficult positions in order to perform even better. So, the reason is not necessarily because they are useless.
If you pose the question the way hon Khawula is doing, it makes the assumption that if you change a person, it is because that person is useless. You may want that person to do something somewhere else. We can quote examples where we have made changes because we have wanted somebody to go and use their expertise in a particular area. So, I can’t answer the question as if this were a general trend that if you are transferred it is because you are useless.
Anyway, the reason why we have created these outcomes that we have agreements on is because we want to be able to do an assessment. Once we have done the assessment, we then take a decision. It also depends on what you believe the person can do better. The person could have been a Minister, but I could see their qualities and that this person would be better as a diplomat to represent the country. It does not necessarily mean that the person is useless.
So, I don’t think the basis of the question is fair with regard to whatever we are doing in government. Unfortunately I don’t think it would be easy for people to come into government as long as the ANC is still there, but perhaps those who did would know what happens if you run a government. Thank you very much. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon President, I would like to know whether any consideration is being given to the issue of whether the worst performing national departments and worst performing provinces, or particular provinces’ shell departments, should be put under national administration currently. Can I repeat my question because the facial expression tells me that there is no understanding? Can I repeat it? I am happy to repeat it.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I have it.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The President says he heard you and he is satisfied, hon member.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, whenever there is an underperforming department or province, we take action. We do so once we realise there is no performance, and after having taken certain actions. At the moment we are not considering taking any action, because there isn’t anyone that we can say deserves to be subjected to the provisions of those sections that are generally used. So, at the moment we do not have anyone in mind. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Thanks, hon Chairperson. Your Excellency, the President of the Republic of South Africa, I am convinced, more than ever before, that you are steering this ship in the right direction, and that your excellent statesmanship has been demonstrated since your appointment as President of the Republic. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: In the second term.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: I don’t want to get into the second term; I am already there.
I am also happy, hon President, that you have answered by indicating that these assessment tools and the assessment of Minsters are not punitive, but to make them work and to produce better results.
My question is this. Are you convinced that, to date, they are at least moving towards meeting the targets that they have set for themselves.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, as I said, I am in the process right now of meeting individual Ministers to discuss the plans and ensure that there is clear understanding. In the process they are working.
There are some departments that are performing very well. That one can see, perhaps in the nature of the departments. Other departments are in a sense preparing themselves to do more things. They have plans to address their outcomes. At the moment I am satisfied that things are going very well in terms of ensuring that the outcomes produce the results we expect.
I think the system itself has helped the departments to organise themselves better, because they want to ensure that they meet the outcomes. The outcomes are designed in such a way that, once they have fulfilled the outcomes, they have performed. So, I am satisfied at this point in time that they are moving in the right direction. Thank you. [Applause.]
Dr Y C VAWDA
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The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I greet you all, including the hon President, with my normal customary greeting of As-saalamu-alay-kum.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, you are doing a Barry White, and we can’t hear you.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Is that better?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, speak into the microphone.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chairperson, we welcome the performance agreements signed between the hon President and the Ministers. This, we understand, is essentially done to ensure monitoring of their performance, and also their accountability. Performance agreements are also signed with other officials in other areas of administration of provincial and local governments, etc. By signing these performance agreements we are sending the right signals out to the rank and file, and this is very acceptable indeed.
When the President himself took the oath of office, this was essentially a performance agreement with the nation. I am sure that the President will agree with me that he himself is also accountable to the nation at large, and not only to the Members of Parliament. This involves accountability, and reasonable and acceptable explanation by the President to the members and to the nation at large. It has a specific reference - it is not about punishing people in the sense that people should return money or should be imprisoned, etc, but about sending out the correct signals to the nation at large.
In this regard, will the President give reasonable and acceptable explanations to the nation at large specifically regarding the Public Protector’s report on his Nkandla residence? I am sure that the President will agree with me. Thank you, Chair. [Laughter.]
IsiZulu:
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKI: Akengibaphendule, ntombazana.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda. Hon Vawda. Order, hon members! The question is about the performance of Ministers. I do understand your drift, ... [Laughter.] ... but we also know that you are smuggling in a question. I think if the hon member wants to, he must specifically write out that question so that it remains fair and gives the President a chance to respond. Baba [Daddy], the question has been put, and I don’t know if you want to respond.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chairperson, I will. I want to help these members because even if you answer, they always have a bee in their bonnet about Nkandla! Shame, bandla [people.] [Laughter.] Nkandla has been investigated by three agencies. [Interjections.] That is a problem, because they have got preconceived ideas. When I answer, they don’t hear.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys! Hon Mathys!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: That’s a problem.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The President is responding ... [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am explaining in order to help them. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is responding to a question raised by a member of your party.
Ms L MATHYS: I am rising on point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the point of order?
Ms L MATHYS: Hon Chairperson, the point of order is: Our hon President has just said, “these members”. Is it parliamentary for our hon President to say, “these members”. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! Yes, ma’am, I am listening!
Ms L MATHYS: So, that is my point of order. I would like you to rule on whether it is parliamentary ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The point of order is whether ... [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: I would like you to rule if it is parliamentary for our hon President to say, “these members” – “I want to school these members”. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: These members are what?
Ms L MATHYS: It is “these members” – “these”. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. Hon members! Hon members, I am quite capable of responding. I do know that when a point of order is not very clear, I want to take my time and to consider it. On this one, yes, the words “these” and “members” are parliamentary.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Chair, there were three. There was a government task team that investigated Nkandla, there was the SIU that investigated Nkandla, and there was the Public Protector.
With regard to the Public Protector, the Public Protector made specific recommendations and submitted the report to Parliament. I wrote to Parliament to respond to the report of the Public Protector and indicated what was supposed to happen. The involvement of government in building my house in regard to the security features is government policy. There are departments responsible for that and that is what they did. Nobody has found that they did anything wrong.
What the Public Protector said was that the President and his family might have benefited unduly, and that he might have to pay back the money, but that would be determined by the Minister of Police in consultation with the Minister of Finance. Parliament looked at the report and produced its own report arising out of it. It referred those questions to where they were supposed to be referred to, to the executive, particularly to the Minister of Police. The Minister of Police is going to respond. He has indicated, at least to the Cabinet, that he is ready to respond and make the determination.
The problem that has been bugging the EFF is jumping the gun. They say I should pay back the money. Their understanding is that there is a judgement that Zuma must pay back the money. There is nothing of that nature. That is going to be determined by the process, and it is the Minister of Police who is going to say the final word on the recommendations, not on the judgement. They think that a recommendation is a judgement – unfortunately.
And that is going to be done ... [Interjections.] They can’t hear. That is the problem they always have, because when you speak, they speak too. These hon members have got a bee in their bonnet about Nkandla. Look at him – he is standing now. I have not even finished responding. He has asked the question, but he is not listening, and I am doing him a favour, in fact, because I could have chosen not to answer the question. I want them to be clear. They are wrong. They are just playing politics, and those politics are not even very good. They must understand this. They even asked this question before Parliament could process the matter, because they have a bee in their bonnet about it. Nkandla! Nkandla! Nkandla! Hololo! Thank you. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Vawda. The hon Vawda is standing, hon Mtileni, and may I remind you of what you said earlier on. [Interjections.] No, no. [Interjections.] Your word should be your bond. Hon Vawda, you are standing.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Chairperson, I repeatedly made it very clear that I was asking the question not on behalf of myself or the members of Parliament, but on behalf of the constituency I represent and the nation at large. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Point taken. The hon Motlashuping.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Chair, I have observed with dismay that the three members of the EFF, hon Mathys, hon Mtileni and hon Vawda, ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your fingers, my hon member.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: No, no. I am sorry about it. All the time ... [Interjections.] I withdraw my finger. [Laughter.] All the time, without being recognised, they stand up and they speak. They don’t observe the rules. I think that must come to an end. They must wait to be recognised so that they can be given an opportunity to address this House, and they must show respect ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The point is taken, hon member. The point is taken. Hon members ... [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni, by your word, I am not going to recognise you again on any point of order today.
Hon members, we have come to the conclusion of our Question Time. What is left is for me to thank you, hon President, for making yourself available to come and respond to questions in the NCOP. Thank you very much, sir.
Hon members, this then concludes the business of the day. Hon members are requested to remain standing while the procession leaves the House.
The Council adjourned at 16:25.
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