Hansard: NCOP: Questions: Cluster 2 – Social Services
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 07 May 2015
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCE
Thursday, 7 May 2015 Take: 7
THURSDAY, 7 MAY 2015
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:04.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
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START OF DAY
PETITION REGARDING LEASING OUT OF ANCESTRAL LAND
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order! Hon members, I would like to take this opportunity to announce, in terms of Rule 233, that the Council has received the following petitions. The first is as follows:
Petition requesting assistance from the National Council of Provinces regarding the alleged failure by the Council of the Eden District Municipality to engage the affected communities in the process of leasing out the ancestral land within the municipality’s jurisdiction – from Mr Hermanus Baatjies on behalf of the Ga’ibhaiqua community of Oudtshoorn in the Western Cape.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
PETITION REGARDING TRANSFORMATION OF PROFESSIONAL HUNTING AND OUTFITTING SECTOR, WESTERN CAPE
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order! The second one is as follows:
Petition requesting assistance from the National Council of Provinces regarding the normalisation of the process towards pragmatic socioeconomic and commercial transformation of the professional hunting and outfitting sector, Western Cape – from hon C J de Beer, Member of Parliament, on behalf of Dr Johann Kotze, Director of GameTech Hunters Training.
The petitions have been referred to the Select Committee on Petitions and Executive Undertakings for consideration and report.
I have been reliably informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion and generally there will be no motions.
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S G Mthimunye)
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE
(Draft Resolution)
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S G Mthimunye): Deputy Chair, I move the draft resolution printed in the name of the Chief Whip of the Council on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 247(1), which provides that a sitting of the Council will be dedicated for oral questions, the Council considers a resolution for the establishment of an Ad Hoc Joint Committee.
That the Council—
(1) notes the recently reported incidents of violence against foreign nationals in KwaZulu-Natal, Gauteng and other areas;
(2) further notes the report and recommendations of the Task Team of Members of Parliament Probing Violence and Attacks on Foreign Nationals that was established in 2008;
(3) subject to the concurrence of the National Assembly, establishes an Ad Hoc Joint Committee to -
(a) inquire into the incidence of violence against foreign nationals and related matters while incorporating into its work the report and recommendations of the previous Task Team of Members of Parliament Probing Violence and Attacks on Foreign Nationals;
(b) make recommendations where applicable;
(c) exercise those powers as set out in Joint Rule 32 that may assist it in carrying out its task; and
(d) consist of 11 members of the National Assembly, as follows: African National Congress 6, Democratic Alliance 2, Economic Freedom Fighters 1 and other parties 2; and, 9 members of the National Council of Provinces; and
(4) sets the deadline by which the Committee is to report to 30 August 2015.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
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The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S G Mthimunye)
ESTABLISHMENT OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE ON VIOLENCE AGAINST FOREIGN NATIONALS AND RELATED MATTERS
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): We now come to the second motion on the Order Paper, as printed in the name of the Chief Whip of the NCOP. Acting Chief Whip?
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S G Mthimunye): I have to apologise, Deputy Chair. I do not have the second motion with me.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Oh. Could you just move it anyway? I ask this because what you did, Acting Chief Whip, was that you read both of them at the same time. There are two, Nos 1 and 2. We dealt with No 1, which was adopted. So, can you move that the second motion, as printed on the Order Paper, be adopted?
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S G Mthimunye): My apologies, Deputy Chairperson. I also move the second motion, as printed on the Order Paper, for adoption. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.
Question put: That the motion be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Before we proceed to questions, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome all Ministers and Deputy Ministers present.
I would also like to make the following point. I am raising this upfront, hon members, so that we don’t find ourselves wondering about it at the point when we come to questions relating to Human Settlements.
We received an apology for the Minister responsible for Human Settlements apologising because of a clash, in the sense that as we are dealing with questions, a Budget Vote is also being presented in the National Assembly. So, we subsequently wrote back, requesting the Minister to put her responses in writing, which will then be forwarded to members who requested responses to their questions to her.
We shall therefore proceed with the next question, which is to the Minister of Arts and Culture.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
SOCIAL SERVICES
Cluster 2
Question 67:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chair, the response to the question from hon member Zwane is that a number of campaigns that have a direct impact on the development of national identity and promoting social cohesion have been launched. Amongst others, there are the following.
Firstly, my department has championed the South African @ Heart campaign, which is aimed at strengthening social cohesion through providing a platform for dialogue on the shared values in our society.
Then there is the promotion of the Magnificent Fridays campaign, in which South Africans are encouraged to wear the colours of their national sporting teams and anything that is South African on those days.
There is also the commemoration of national days, which in the main are a symbol of unity and identity for all of us as South Africans.
These amongst others are the efforts that my department is making to enable South Africans to share common space. This enables people who have been separated for centuries by colonialism and apartheid to learn about and know each other, and understand and appreciate each other’s humanity.
Public interaction is important in what we call community conversations, which we have with different communities, and we have been conducting them throughout the country.
We do not see social cohesion as affecting only South Africans; it goes beyond the borders on our continent. You will have observed that we have started with the programme of Africa Month, which will be ongoing and which, by and large, is reconnecting South Africa with its own continent.
This programme also ensures that all intolerance, including racism, xenophobia and all those things, are addressed in a programmatic way, not only from the point of view of reacting to what has happened in the country here, but as a general programme. You will see it also unfolding in schools, where learners are taught to be patriotic, firstly by understanding the signs and symbols of their nation. They should understand the importance of a national anthem.
For instance, there is the African Union Anthem. I think that members will be joining us in internalising the AU Anthem, just to remind one another that we are part and parcel of the continent, and also to end this habit that when we visit elsewhere in the continent, we say that we were in Africa, we went to Africa or we visited Africa, as if South Africa is not part of Africa. Thank you.
Ms L L ZWANE
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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IsiZulu:
Nks L L ZWANE: Sihlalo, ngibonga uNgqongqoshe ngokuphendula ngendlela eyanelisayo umbuzo obenguwubuzile egameni leKwaZulu-Natali. Kodwa-ke Ngqongqoshe, mhlawumbe umuntu angancoma ukuthi lolu hlelo lokufundisa umphakathi ngokwazi ukuhlalisana kanye nokubekezelelana malungagcini nje kuphela ngaphakathi eNingizimu Afrika ngoba luwuhlelo olusifundisayo ukuthi kufanele sikwazi ukuphilisana njengabantwana be-Afrika. Ngizwe uNgqongqoshe ephatha udaba olubalulekile lweculo lwesizwe lase-Afrika njengezwekazi, ukuthi mhlawumbe izinhlelo zikhona yini emnyangweni wakhe ukuthi lelo culo lifinyelele nasezikoleni, bathi befundiswa iculo lesizwe kodwa futhi bafunde neculo lezwekazi lase-Afrika. Hhayi ezikolweni kuphela kodwa nakwezinye izinhlaka zomphakathi.
English:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, I thank the hon member. The Africa Month programme is a programme which runs throughout the month. We started on 2 May and it will run until 31 May.
It is a programme where we are trying to remind one another of and educate our society about who we are. As you will have seen, there is a logo where we are asserting that “We are Africa”. That is where we need to start.
We are Africa, and during this month we will be unveiling the AU flag. In official government buildings and so forth you will start seeing the AU flag. This is extremely important, especially because, with the AU Agenda 2063, which is the continuation of a programme of reviving and regenerating our continent which started a long time ago, we as the current generation have an obligation to play our role in ensuring that in our lifetime we see the African Renaissance in practice.
It is a programme which includes all of us because, when we are involved in that, people are going to learn that even the borders that we have are artificial. These are borders emanating from the Berlin Congress of 1884-85 and they have nothing to do with what or who we are as Africans.
There are people today who are grouped as Nguni, and when you trace their history, you will find that today they are called Zulus, Xhosas, Swatis and so forth. They come from engonini ye-Africa, which is the centre of Africa. So, if they today call other people names, they should be the first ones to be called names, because when you engage with them, they will only tell you about who their fathers were, and who their grandfathers and mothers were, but beyond that they are not going to be able to tell you.
Therefore, it means that we as Members of Parliament have to start writing our story, and our own family stories, about who we are and where we come from. When you trace that, you will find that most of us are not the foremost indigenous people here in South Africa. Thank you.
Mr B G NTHEBE
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Thank you so much, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for your response.
You indicated in your reply, Minister, that the campaigns that you lead through your energetic department are in the main expected to bring about what we call the creation of shared values, which finds expression in the commemoration of our national days, as we go along, to ensure that social cohesion is then assured in South Africa.
Would you agree with me that I may safely assume that national identity and social cohesion in South Africa do not in any way seek to undermine what we seek to do in terms of Agenda 2063 of the AU as we move forward, and that we do not seek to generate a perception that national identity is more important than what we seek to do generally on the continent. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: National identity is important, but we are Africans first and foremost, before we are South Africans. We are part of the global nations, so therefore we can’t be looking at who we are as South Africans, as if we are divorced from the entire globe.
We do this with a firm commitment to Pan-Africanism, whose agenda started a long time ago. If you follow history, you will remember that after 1884-85, which began the Scramble for Africa, some leaders emerged to challenge this situation, this Scramble for Africa. It is important that we remind ourselves all the time of who we are and where we come from.
There were people like Henry Sylvester Williams, who in 1897 formed the organisation called the African Association. It was that organisation which led to the first Pan-African Congress, which was held in London in 1900.
However, beyond that there is the contribution of Pixley ka Isaka Seme at Columbia University in 1906 with his legendary oratory work, asserting that he was an African.
It is all those combined that then led to the formation of the OAU on 25 May 1963, taking further the process of decolonising Africa, in response to what happened in 1884-85.
Therefore, it would be folly of South Africans to think that it is about the national borders within which we find ourselves. By the way, we never chose to be within those borders. Borders should facilitate the free movement of people, so that tomorrow you could be in Cairo or in Dakar without anybody’s saying that you are a foreigner. There will be no “foreigner” in Africa coming from anywhere else in Africa. Africa is for Africans, whether you are in the Cape or in Cairo. You are in Africa, and therefore this is your home and that is how we understand it. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon ...
Ms L MATHYS: Thank you, Chair. It is okay.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I nearly forgot your name. Hon Mathys.
Ms L MATHYS: Thank you, Chair. On the question of social cohesion, which I just want to highlight, we know that the ANC government has a tendency of turning days of national importance, aimed at building social cohesion, both here in South Africa and Africa at large, into ANC rallies and promoting themselves and their political agendas.
As a result of this, many people from different cultures and backgrounds feel marginalised and excluded, and end up frowning on these days of national importance. This abuse of power has a negative impact on building social cohesion and unity both in this country and in Africa at large. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the supplementary question, hon member?
Ms L MATHYS: But can I finish? I am getting there. Why are you interrupting me?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): But you are making a political statement.
Ms L MATHYS: My question is coming! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no. Order, hon members. [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: No, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order!
Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, I have two minutes to put a question and you are interrupting me while I am asking my question.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I am trying to find out what the supplementary question is.
Ms L MATHYS: You are not even letting me finish. The question is on social cohesion. So there is a question coming and, if you let me finish, I will put that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can we get the question, hon member?
Ms L MATHYS: You do not interrupt ANC MPs when they give long preambles and there is not even a follow-up question ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, ... [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: ... but every time the EFF is here you want to interrupt when we are asking questions.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, can you ask your supplementary question?
Ms L MATHYS: I am trying to. [Interjections.] Now what is the department doing to make sure that programmes that are considered of national importance are not abused to further the political objectives of the ruling party, and that they truly promote social cohesion and unity, both here in this country and in Africa at large? Are you happy now, Chair?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon member.
Ms L MATHYS: I’m glad.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: I know of no national day where people have been excluded. Whenever there is a national day - we have just had Freedom Day - we announce it publicly and we have never said that we want people from the ANC or PAC or IFP. We would very much like to have EFF people coming to ... [Interjections.] ... the national commemorative days, because they are part of South Africa. No, we can assure you that you would really be ... [Interjections.] And, by the way, that can’t be true, because we have had national days and we have had leaders from different parties coming to those national days. They have never been excluded and in some instances they have spoken at those national days. So, we should not tell half truths about what is happening in our country.
Let us say that you would love to come to a national day commemoration – you have a wish to do so. You are welcome. If you decide to come with your paraphernalia, your caps, berets, overalls and everything else, you won’t be stopped. You will be there as part of South Africa. It does not matter who you are. People should not feel intimidated because somebody is wearing a T-shirt. When we say that we are commemorating a particular day, we do not ask people to come wearing their T-shirts or their colours, but at the same time you can’t say that people should not do that. It is a free country and we should find a way of getting together. It would be good to see a variety of colours, people coming there with their different colours and chanting their different slogans. We are South Africans and we are united in our diversity. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Van Lingen, did you have your hand up?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I didn’t want to ask a follow-up question. I was trying to indicate that I could not hear the Minister. With the distance between his microphone and his mouth, as he is a tall man, it is very difficult to hear him.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Fine.
Mr V E MTILENI
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to ask the Minister if he is not perhaps confusing social cohesion and political cohesion. The hon Mathys was asking why the ANC is using these events to market itself, instead of making sure that it actually uses these occasions perhaps to inform the community of what the activities are about. The simple question is: why is the ANC turning all these activities into ANC activities, instead of their being community activities? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Let me repeat, Chair, that when we hold national days, we do so as the government. The fact that the ANC happens to be the governing party is neither here nor there. We organise these things as the government. Now, regarding what the party does, I think the confusion is with the hon member who is asking the question. The party may want me to come and speak on behalf of the party, and there are people who will speak on behalf of the party. However, I will speak on behalf of the department of government, which is responsible for national days.
I am saying that as the custodian of that, we want all South Africans – and we call upon all South Africans – to come and attend commemorations of national days. We have just had Freedom Day, and we will be having Youth Day in June, which, for instance, we will commemorate in Limpopo, and I am inviting the hon member to be part and parcel of the festivities of commemorating a very important day on the national calendar, which is Youth Day.
Now whether, when we get there, the ANC dances or does whatever it does, that is something else. Whether you are ANC or not ANC, nothing changes. People are allowed to come, because it is a national day. My advice is that people should really not worry about the ANC, or any other party for that matter. If you want to go there and commemorate the day, just go there and commemorate the day.
There will be nothing untoward. We have seen this, because we started commemorating these days in 1994. We have seen leaders and individuals from other parties coming together, such as the ANC and the EFF. Well, the EFF was not there then, it is true, but there were other parties which were always here. [Interjections.] Because the EFF is a new party, I think that we should extend an invitation to them. This is a norm and a tradition. Therefore, come! Wozani! Let us celebrate. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 83
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 67
Question 83:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chair, the primary responsibility for providing library services to the public rests with the provinces, in accordance with Schedule 5 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa adopted in 1996. The national Department of Arts and Culture does not transfer funding to municipalities.
The allocation of grant funding to provinces is informed by a needs-based approach. My department identifies common needs in all the provinces, which are then ranked according to severity at the national level and then at provincial level. The provincial departments of arts and culture, in co-operation with municipalities, identify areas to which the grant funding should be allocated. Hence, the allocation of funds to municipalities is determined by provincial policies.
The proportion of the funding that each province should receive is determined by ranking the needs to establish provincial priorities.
The most common needs amongst all the provinces are library materials, staff, information and communications technology, infrastructure and library buildings. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I did suspect that the hon Minister would say this is a Schedule 5 function. However, Schedule 5 is a concurrent function; it is not just a provincial function.
I have also experienced a problem with dumping at the end of the financial year, where funds are just dumped with municipalities and no follow-up and checking is being done.
This is really a concern because, for instance, Kouga Local Municipality got an award for the library recipient which spent its funds best, but we do not know whether they received all the money. On the other hand, I am sitting with Rietbron, which is in the Baviaans Local Municipality, where no funding has been allocated.
I am just asking whether the hon Minister has ever considered any measures to check, follow up, monitor or supervise this. I say this because grant funding is something very special, and we must look after it. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, firstly, let me thank the hon member for recognising Schedule 5, which is important. We need to say on the specific matter of dumping that I think we would really be as concerned as she is. Most probably steps will be taken by her to raise this with the relevant authorities.
With other spheres of government, we depend by and large on intergovernmental relations, so that whatever is happening, whatever the powers other spheres of government are, and whatever programmes we undertake in collaboration with them, this will be from the point of view of co-operation with them, respecting their own specific needs at their particular level. If it is a province, it will be at the provincial level, and if it is local government, it will be at the municipality level.
Where the Department of Arts and Culture has contributed, from the point of view of accountability we would certainly want to know about this. We do follow matters up so that we know what is really happening. But, as I said, at the end of the day that particular province with which we are working is the one that will know what its priorities are. Thank you.
Mr V E MTILENI
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Deputy Chair, let me pose this one to the Minister. Most of the municipalities in the country are infested with corruption and maladministration, to the extent that the majority of them are dysfunctional. This is a reality of the situation in our country, and the ANC-led government has failed horribly to fix these problems and challenges in local government, and they continue unabated.
Hon Minister, firstly, do you have any monitoring mechanisms in place regarding how grants allocated to libraries in each municipality should be accounted for - maybe a thorough explanation on this one. Secondly, what guarantees do you have that the grants allocated to libraries will have a positive impact on our communities? Lastly, what is the percentage of the total grant that is allocated to small and rural municipalities? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chair, let me say to the hon member that he started by making a broad statement. It would be really helpful in future if the hon member were to specify what he is talking about, because anecdotes and hearsay are sometimes not helpful. When we are confronted with facts about a particular situation, it is much better.
As we said, the provinces play a critical role when we give them grants. Provinces are able, through Minmec meetings, to report what is happening in their areas on a need-to-know basis, that is, when you want to know what has happened there. But all in all, those municipalities belong to a particular province and they will account to that province from time to time.
You can imagine how many municipalities we have throughout the country. If a national department were to go around to those municipalities, where would it start and where would it end? With the intergovernmental relations we have with the provinces - that is the level where we interact - we as the Department of Arts and Culture do not necessarily go around to municipalities and interact with them. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 46
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 83
Question 46:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chair, on 17 April 2015 I convened a national consultative meeting to discuss the challenges relating to the issue of statues. But, we decided to broaden this to matters related to the heritage landscape in our country.
I must thank members, especially the political parties, who attended and the majority of the parties are represented here in Parliament. I also thank civil society, university students and other interested and affected parties.
That engagement was robust and soul-searching and, amongst others, it probed intensifying popularisation campaigns regarding South Africa’s key symbols in schools and other spaces, greater civic awareness, and national consciousness. The symbols include the preamble to the Constitution of the Republic, which was adopted in 1996, and the flag and the national anthem.
The Departments of Arts and Culture, of Basic Education and of Higher Education and Training closely collaborate to ensure that the transformation of the national symbols, heritage, culture and education system is affected.
It has also been said that we need to review the existing laws to test their adequacy and appropriateness in responding to the current need for accelerated change of the heritage landscape which is dominated by colonial and apartheid symbols. The existing laws must be used for the transformation, removal, transfer or replacement of any statue, public symbol or place name.
Government and stakeholders must emphasise that attacking and defacing statues is unlawful and criminal, and call for law enforcement to act to prevent these unlawful incidents and for the communities to work with law enforcement agencies to report unlawful incidents and protect the symbols.
The creation of a task team will assist with the conceptualisation, implementation, monitoring and impact assessment of a rapid process of transformation of the heritage landscape in our country. I have identified the members of the task team, most of whom are experts in the field of heritage, and who will be leading this process of accelerating the transformation process in the heritage landscape in our country.
Things we agreed on were the following. One of them was that there were protagonists of colonialism and apartheid, and those who represented that face should not be in the public spaces. So, we should find a way of removing them from public spaces.
However, we are also exploring the concept of a theme park, where we will have almost all the statues, good and bad. Some will be telling the story of South Africa and most of the story of where we come from as a society.
But, what we are aiming for will be catered for in a national monument, a process that we started last year, where you will have statues like you have never had anywhere else in the world, depicting the evolution of our society from the precolonial era to our liberation in 1994, represented by different leaders in different epochs in the evolution of our society. That is happening and we will continue with it, because it is quite important to emphasise the point that we can try to wish away history, but we can’t erase it. There has to be a way in which people understand our history and learn about it.
The destruction is not going to help, because future generations will want to know the face of the oppressor, and we will have denied them the opportunity to understand what the oppressor looked like.
But, as we have said, public spaces are spaces which are going to be guarded jealously. As to whether a statue is going to be removed at the end of the day, or will remain there, is going to be subject to consultation throughout the process. It will be consultation with people who have a different view in regard to a particular statue. That process is continuing, but we are saying we should broaden it to include the entire heritage landscape, because there are geographical name changes, buildings, and so on which are also part and parcel of heritage.
People have the wrong impression, that the issue of the statues is a new thing. This thing was there. If you went outside the NCOP you would see Verwoerd and Vorster. They are no longer there, but even as that process unfolded there was consultation. This was in 1994. [Interjections.] It was 1994 already. So, this is not a new thing. All that it says is that we should deepen dialogue on the matter, and act where we need to act, but along with dialogue. There is no other way. Thank you.
Mnu L B GAEHLER
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Masibulele, Mphathiswa. Impendulo yakho intle kakhulu. Asifuni kuzibona siyile nto kuthiwa yibhanana riphabliki kuba kuza kuhlekwa uMzantsi Afrika wonke. Izinto zifuna ukwenziwa ngendlela elungileyo ukuze ilizwe lonke libe nesidima.
Umbuzo wam ngulo ulandelayo: Xa uza kwenza le nto, Mphathiswa, ingaba amanye amaqela ezopolitiko aza kubandakanywa kusini na?
English:
Are you going to involve the other political parties, because it is about South Africa? When you decide about these statues, will this involve civil society and other political parties, because that is very important – it is about our country, no matter what party you belong to? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Absolutely, hon member. In fact, it goes beyond political parties, because our lives as a society are not only political, but also cultural and everything else.
The hon member is quite correct. That is why, from the very beginning we ensured that no parties, starting with the parties represented in Parliament, both in the NCOP and the National Assembly, would cry foul, saying that they were not consulted. We called in everybody, because it was our obligation to do that.
Now, at the end of the day, whether parties decide to come or not is not our problem. However, we will continue to persuade people to see that one of the most important reasons that South Africa is being put on the international map is the ability of its leaders to confront problems and deepen dialogue within society. That is important, even now, and it will continue.
There will be no exclusion. If any exclusion is detected, it will be because some people have decided to exclude themselves. We as a government have an obligation to include everyone. Thank you so much.
Ms L MATHYS
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
Ms L MATHYS: Chair, apartheid had as an important mission the defacing of the black body, stripping it of its dignity and forcing alien heroes on the values of African people. Our liberation struggle produced many black women and men who sacrificed their lives for the purpose of freeing this nation from the shackles that apartheid imposed.
Now, what is the department doing to ensure that the legacy and heritage of those who have brought us freedom are not eclipsed by the need to preserve offensive symbols of black oppression like this Louis Botha statue outside Parliament? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, firstly, defacing and blackening the faces of people, and so on, are acts of racism. As a society there are things on our list that should be bottom lines. There is no way that we should be tolerant of such discriminatory practices as racism. So we should fight racism all the time and raise our voices against it. We have to defeat it. If we are to build a nonracial society, it means racism has to be confronted and defeated, like we defeated apartheid. That struggle should continue.
I have just referred to those who fought for liberation. If you go around the country, you will realise that since 1994 so much has changed in terms of signs and symbols. If you take a province like what was known as the Orange Free State, today it is the Free State. It was known as the Orange Free State then, but today it is the Free State. When you land there, you land at the Bram Fischer International Airport, if you have forgotten that, and he is a hero of our struggle.
If you like, you can go to what was known as Jan Smuts Airport. Today, anybody who lands in South Africa lands at O R Tambo International Airport. [Applause.]
If you go around the country, you will see buildings, streets and places that are named after our leaders. I refer to all our leaders, be it Seme, Mandela, Sisulu, Sobukwe or Biko. The list is endless. The leaders of our people are there in our streets, for example, the Joe Slovos of this world.
Obviously we will never be satisfied, because it should continue. This is why we are saying that as part of this project we are building a national monument.
If you go to Ghana today, you will note that the late President Nkrumah died in Guinea and he was buried there. However, later generations took him back to his own country, Ghana, and to his people in his village, Nzema. Today, if you go to Ghana, you will find him in Freedom Square in Accra. Freedom Square is a contribution, a monument, a symbol of respect for the contribution of leaders like Nkrumah.
Elsewhere in the world you will find such monuments. We are building ours here in the city of power, Tshwane, together with the City of Tshwane and the province of Gauteng.
This is an ongoing process. We are very aware and conscious of the fact that our forebears sacrificed their lives and some of them were in the trenches. Sometimes you do not necessarily need to be told about that, because it is something you know and therefore your commitment can never be questioned today.
When people say we should speed up the process, that is all very well. We will do that and, as we do it, we take cognisance of the fact that we have policies and a legislative framework, and we have chosen a particular path as a society, the path of reconciliation.
We should not be confused by capitulation – what we are saying is that we should forgive, but never forget. Now, if people want to destroy everything here, they want us to forget where we come from. We are saying no, the laws of this country do not allow that. Let us not forget where we come from, so that we don’t repeat the follies of the past. Thank you.
Mr V E MTILENI
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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Mr V E MTILENI: Mr Minister, we still have statues of some black leaders of the defunct Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei states, or homelands, which are still standing in various parts of our country. Are you going to keep those statues because they are the statues of black fellows, even though they were put up during the apartheid era, or are you going to remove them? Or is your aim perhaps to leave it to the community to deal with that matter? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Well, you see, those fellows you are referring to, from the TBVC states as you say, are no different from the fellow who was at the University of Cape Town.
What it means is that there are laws in this country. The National Heritage Resources Act, passed in 1999, is still on the Statute Book. If you act according to it, there is no statue, building or symbol which you cannot apply to have removed or whatever, including those ones.
Government does not apply for that. It is the people in communities who do that and apply to government. They do not apply directly to government, but to agencies like the SA Heritage Resources Agency, which is responsible for the implementation of the Act. People are welcome to do this. They can apply and say that this fellow did A, B and C and therefore having him there is offensive. Then the application will be processed.
There will not be a situation where institutions of state will say, when you apply for action regarding a particular person, that they will ignore your application. They would be violating the law. Everything will be looked into on its merits, and so on, but it’s not necessarily the Department of Arts and Culture that does that.
Our role comes in when everything else has failed. If somebody is appealing against a decision which was taken by the SA Heritage Resources Agency, and saying that they do not agree with the particular decision, then we come in.
If, hon member, you have seen some faces which are offensive to you in your community, you have every right to apply for their removal or whatever. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 102
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 46
Question 102:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: It is the same question, hon Chair – it is about the statues. However, as I said, we are looking more broadly than the statues; we are looking at the entire landscape. How do we ensure that whatever you do involves archives, geographical name changes, and so on and so forth. I think we have responded to this question, but we would be open to any follow-up on the matter. Thank you.
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, I want to know from the hon Minister, regarding new statues and heritage sites, how he is going to treat them, protect them and commission them at the end of the day. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: You know, naturally these sites should be protected by their communities. That is natural. However, we have seen some defacing, which is something on which we have interacted with the security agencies in the country.
If you go to Soweto today, there is a museum, the Hector Pieterson Museum. There are all sorts of things there, including his portrait. That community is the protector of that museum. At that museum there is no security and there is no protection.
We should condemn the phenomenon where people go and destroy property. It is something which has to do with a mindset, because it is not, by the way, about the ones that are mentioned, whether it is Paul Kruger or whoever. It started a long time ago. “King Tshwane”, for instance, was once defaced in Tshwane.
If you go to Cradock now, you will see that the Cradock Four Memorial has been defaced. What that says is that we have a duty to educate and engage with our society. That is why we have emphasised the point of deepening the conversation amongst ourselves about the importance of ensuring that people do not do things which are unlawful. Moreover, it is not only the legalistic approach, but it is about education. Why would people in Cradock deface the memorial of Sparrow Mkhonto, Matthew Goniwe, Fort Calata and Sicelo Mhlauli? I mean, those were the leaders of our people who fought for the freedom we have today.
You would expect that the people would be the ones who would defend these things. It is important that all of us intensify the education of our people that if you don’t want a statue, you should rather follow the processes to see to it that it is removed, but not deface it. Do not destroy it, because even as you do that, you will still need to go somewhere to see that statue. There are people who still want to see Hertzog, for instance, and we were well aware of that when his statue was removed from the Union Buildings, and then you had Mandela. We were quite aware of that.
In destroying it you are actually trying to obliterate history. Now, you can’t obliterate history. History is history, good or bad. It must be told. It must be known, so that in the future whatever was bad does not continue. Thank you.
Ms L MATHYS
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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Ms L MATHYS: Thank you, Chair. I don’t know about having signs and symbols all over that represent a history that is very ugly. I mean, if I have been raped, for example, I don’t want to have pictures everywhere to remind me of my history, just for the sake of culture. I don’t know if that is history. Most of these symbols represent something that was a very, very ugly and hurtful past. So having statues as symbols everywhere is just not appropriate.
My question is as follows. You know, we have the statues of Jan Smuts, Louis Botha, H F Verwoerd and others that represent the heritage of white supremacy. In a country such as ours history seems to be honouring that. Even here in our parliamentary grounds we have Queen Victoria. Are there not more important South African heroes that we can have? We have Mama Winnie Mandela. What role does Queen Victoria play here that we have her symbol in the parliamentary grounds? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Chair, let me perhaps start here. Whether you want to be reminded about history or not, history is history. You are going to find it. You can try to bury your head in the sand, but it is important to learn from history. If history doesn’t teach you anything, it is not worth it. It has to teach you something. So, therefore, the argument that, because this particular person was an oppressor, nothing should be said about the person is really not going to help anybody.
What one should say is that having offensive statues and symbols occupying public spaces is something else. In fact, I did say that in the consultative meeting we called this was one of the resolutions, that with those ones that are offensive the protagonist should be removed.
As we speak now, we are in the process of looking at what we call theme parks. Having shared information with other countries like Hungary and so on, we have seen that we need a particular place for particular statues. If they are kept there in a theme park, they will still tell the story, whether it is a bad story or a good story. The statues will continue to tell the story.
I did say also that when it comes to statues, symbols or even names, there are, for example, names which communities feel should change and those names will change if a process is followed, and on the merits of each case. It is not a general thing. It is on the merits of each case. We will have to look into that and we can say this thing is indeed offensive because of A, B, C, and it has to be removed. It will then be removed. That won’t be an issue.
However, hon members should actually help to discourage people from taking the law into their own hands, because that is where the problem is. The law does not deny your applying for anything, but it does not allow you to say that because you feel angry when you see a particular picture or statue, you have to destroy it. No, those things should be discouraged, especially by Members of Parliament. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 76
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – QUESTION 102
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Question 76:
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I thank the hon Khawula for the question he has asked, a very important question. We have programmes, and one of them, which is aimed, hon member, at achieving social cohesion in our society, is championed by the advocates of social cohesion.
Just before this upsurge in xenophobic attacks, which started in KwaZulu-Natal this time around, we visited the community where you have the marquee tents, and where the foreign nationals are, through what we call community conversations. We have been conducting these in different communities over the past few years, precisely to forge social cohesion in our society.
Eminent individuals in our society – the advocates whose chairperson is Judge Mokgoro, and others – have been going around the country to implement this programme particularly, and to interact with communities to ensure that intolerances like racism, xenophobia, Afrophobia, whatever, are dealt with in our communities.
Besides that, as we said earlier on, part of the reason why we conceived of the Africa Month programme as a proactive programme was precisely to emphasise our Pan-Africanism as South Africans, and to emphasise unity amongst Africans. This programme is aimed at doing just that, and we urge members of society and Members of Parliament to participate.
Over and above that, the government has developed an integrated programme to look at whatever gaps there are in the system, and more broadly in society.
You know that this latest outbreak occurred in Isipingo. It was not a mistake that it happened in Isipingo, because just before it broke out, you had a number of people who were fired by a particular company – local people – and replaced by foreign nationals. We see this everywhere. If you go to the agricultural sector, you will find that many people who are employed there are foreign nationals, whereas the others are nationals. We also have it in the hospitality industry, and so forth.
All of us, from all walks of life, have a responsibility to look into this issue and ask what it is that our sector is contributing, positively or negatively, in ensuring that there is harmony amongst all our people? Thank you.
Mnu M KHAWULA
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
IsiZulu:
Mnu M KHAWULA: Ngiyathokoza kwiPhini likaSihlalo ngethuba, ngithokoze mhlonishwa uNyambose. Ngiqale ngokuthi ngiphindele emuva kancani ngisho-nje ukuthi, ngithe ukuphoxeka kancane uma ubala amaqhawe womzabalazo wase ukhohlwa la uphekelwa khona. Ama-consequences aloko angase kube ukuthi ulale ungadlile namhlanje.
English:
Hon Minister, I want to refer to the image of the country, which was dented by this kind of activity. I would like to say that it also impacts very negatively upon the economy of the country, not just inside South Africa, but even outside the country, because of the kind of economic activities that are going on between South Africa and the rest of Africa and the rest of the world. In fact, in the meeting of our Select Committee on Economic and Business Development yesterday the department, in making a presentation, gave us the figure that we have close to 169 000 South Africans employed as a result of business activity between South Africa and Africa. So, that is the kind of danger that there is there.
Now, when these programmes take place, they focus mainly on the big cities, like you are saying that the focus in KwaZulu-Natal is Isipingo in eThekwini, where this thing started, and the focus in Gauteng is on Soweto, etc. However, when these people who are in Isipingo say that they are going home during festive season, they mean they are going back to the rural areas. When they say, during the Easter weekend, that they are going home, they mean going back to the rural areas. In the rural areas you have as many foreign nationals as you would probably have in the cities.
What programmes do you as government have to ensure that even when these people - our brothers and sisters who are there in the cities because of work opportunities - get back home, the situation is as normal as that which you have normalised in the cities? I say this because, if you are going to focus on the cities, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you conclude the question, hon member?
Mr M KHAWULA: ... when they go back home to the rural areas and these programmes have not filtered down, you might still have the problem continuing. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I hope the Minister took note of the fact that hon Khawula even said “South Africa and Africa” to do with business.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: You know, I thought, ngimuzwa ngingedwa, Sekela Sihlalo, kanti nawe umzwile. [I was the only one who heard him, whereas you also heard him.] You heard him.
The issue of the image of our country is an important one, but this goes beyond image. It goes to the heart of who we are – our identity as Africans. It is we who brought to the world the spirit of ubuntu, which is mainly about caring and sharing amongst humanity. This is something in regard to which we need to work together.
Government would obviously be at the bridgehead of these campaigns, but the involvement of all our communities becomes important in this instance. Our community conversations are not only in towns; they go to townships, villages, rural areas and elsewhere. As I say, it is part of what the outreach programme is, and it would be a mistake on our part to concentrate only on urban areas, the big cities, because we know that many people in our society come from the rural areas. That is why rural areas, villages and so on, are part and parcel of the programme, so that exactly what the hon member is talking about is achieved and you normalise the situation everywhere. In areas where ...
IsiZulu:
... uya uyofuna itoho. Njengawe-nje bab’u Gatsheni, nalapho uyakhona-ke usuya ekhaya. Kuyafana-nje, noma usetohweni noma usekhaya kufanele kusetshenzwe yonke indawo ngendlela efanayo ukuthi abantu bakithi baqwashiswe ngokucwasana ...
English:
... because it would be something strange if it became a subculture that a people – an heroic people of South Africa who rose and fought, not only colonialism in the classical sense of the word, but also colonialism of a special type in the form of apartheid, working with other people, primarily African people, who have always embraced Nkrumah, Kenyatta, Lumumba, Sankara and so on, as their leaders – could today turn around and say that people who come from those countries have to be ill-treated, and have to be hurt and harmed. It is a matter of its being an obligation upon society to say, “No, this can’t happen in our name.”
We must also say that whilst that has happened, the true colours of South Africans were immediately seen when the entire society rose up and said, “No, this is not us.” The correct picture of South Africa is that South Africa is a caring and sharing country. “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.”
So, I think that we should criticise what happened, but we should also encourage South Africans by saying that they always rise up at the critical moment. What we should fight for now is that this should not rear its head again. As we are even now still fighting in regard to the issue of the colour line in our society, we should continue fighting other intolerances as well. Thank you.
Mnu L B GAEHLER
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
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IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Siyabulela Mphathiswa. Nam, Mphathiswa, ...
English:
... let me join the core in condemning the violence, but ...
IsiXhosa:
... ukuba niyabuqaphela obu bundlobongela, ikakhulu ngabantu base-Afrika ababethwayo. Yona ingxaki ikhona, kodwa loo ngxaki ayithi makubekho ubundlobongela. Uyabona ukuba uhamba kuyo nayiphi na idolophu, uza kufumanisa ukuba iivenkile zoosomashishini basePakistan ziqesha abantu basePakistan zize ezabaseChina ziqeshe abantu baseChina. Yinto efuna ukushukuxwa ke leyo. Uye ufumanise ukuba aba bakuthi abantu baqeshwe njengabantu abatshayelayo okanye bemi emnyango bathi “makungenwe, makungenwe.”
Kuyafuneka ningamasebe ukuba niyijonge le nto, nidibane nibonisane kuba yona noko ibuhlungu. Masiyithethe inyaniso, Mphathiswa, siyeke ukumane siqhathana kulo mba. Ibuhlungu into yokuba abantu bakuthi bajongelwe ukuba owona msebenzi ubafaneleyo ngowokucoca kuphela.
Ndiphulaphule kakuhle, Mhlekazi, ndithi kuwe, obu bundlobongela buchaphazela abamnyama kuphela, abase-Afrika. Kodwa ukuba ujonga eMzantsi Afrika, ungaya nakule yakho idolophu, uza kufumanisa ukuba oosomashishini baseChina baqeshe amaChina, abamaNdiya baqeshe amaNdiya. Kuyafuneka ningamasebe ukuba nihlale phantsi nibonisane, kuba le nto iza kusibethe isihlazise. Sesihlazekile! Akwaba ningathi ningamasebe nibonisane ukuba kungenziwa njani ukuze nabantu bethu babonelelwe. Enkosi.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Thank you, hon member Gaehler. We have all said the same thing, and that is that we are condemning violence. However, as we have said, we should look beyond condemnation. Then what? We should put in place processes and mechanisms and programmes which will be proactive in nature and be able to prevent such things.
He then touched on the issue of business. As I said, the interministerial committee is an integrated approach of government in looking at a whole host of things. I have given examples of some of them. They might be issues related to security, issues related to the private sector, or other issues. All those matters are being discussed and looked into.
Without getting into specifics, the Chinese employ Chinese when there are also Chinese who employ South Africans, and Indians who employ South Africans. I am saying that we should come up with a comprehensive approach regarding the matters at hand. We should say that these are the possible danger areas we need to concentrate on. What then do we do? In an integrated way we will be able to deal with all the other challenges that we are faced with. Thank you.
Mr V E MTILENI
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The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE
Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you, Chair. Xenophobia, defined as a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries, simply ignores the socioeconomic realities in which the violence was witnessed and in which the people lived. All the people who were attacked were black. They lived in poor conditions and government failed them.
The first reaction from government was denial, with their saying that South Africans are not xenophobic, and then asking African foreign nationals to leave without addressing the underlying issues that sparked the violence.
Mr Minister, what were the underlying issues in the communities that sparked the violence? Secondly, have those issues been resolved? Lastly, the subsequent raiding of black people, asking them to produce their documents, in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng is reminiscent of apartheid and the criminalisation of the black person. Is this systematic Afrophobia from government, rather than addressing the lack of a coherent migration policy? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Minister, there are two supplementary questions there. You can choose which one you want to respond to. The hon member was supposed to put a supplementary question. Go ahead, Minister.
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chair, one of the reasons why it was easy to understand what was happening is this. Maybe the hon member will not remember this, because at that time, in 2008, he was not a Member of Parliament. That was when this violence emerged, starting specifically in Gauteng. Members of Parliament were part of the process of investigating the root causes of that violence, and they were able to identify the root causes.
Amongst others there was the whole scramble for economic survival – microeconomic survival - in our communities. This was through local businesses, outsmarting others and competition at that level, issues of markup prices, and all those things, and because of that there were opportunistic tendencies from some criminal elements in our society. So, there are a whole host of things which you as Members of Parliament know with regard to what was happening.
Now, the multipronged approach of government in dealing with this issue is responding to what has been researched, but also dealing with some of the things that have been in the pipeline for being dealt with. For instance, the issue of the borderline areas and the ports of entry is one area which has been getting attention from government, and that is why there has been the establishment of the Border Management Agency led by the Department of Home Affairs.
Then also, there is looking at the legislative framework we have in the country to see whether that is adequate to deal with the problems.
I don’t think government has necessarily failed the people, as the hon member says here. However, I must say that there are other things that have to be dealt with in our society. There is the very fact that South Africa was conquered by force – to what extent have we deepened the programme of shifting that particular paradigm, as people responded to this force as they defended themselves.
And then, hon member, I can assure you that asking people to produce their papers will continue. No government will allow anybody to be in their country illegally and, if there are illegal immigrants, there will be a concentration of them and they will be deported. There can’t be any apology about that, because you should have the means to account for each and every citizen in your country. If somebody does come to your country illegally, and I don’t care whether you are in Europe or Asia or the Americas, they must face the might of the law of that country, and there should be no apology about that.
If you want to open yourself up to criminal activities and to syndicates, you are going to allow people to come into your country illegally, and therefore give the impression that everybody who is a foreign national is an illegal person. You need rather to deal with the illegal people, and remain with those who are in the country legally.
So, if that is uncomfortable for the hon member, I am sorry that he is going to have this discomfort forever, because it’s a programme that will continue, so that government can ensure that there are no illegal people in South Africa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 70
The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE – Question 76
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Question 70:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, it’s an interesting and important historical coincidence that I’m here in this august House today because, almost 21 years ago to the day, in my maiden speech in this House I made reference to the statues of Hendrik Verwoerd and B J Vorster, and I argued for their removal because they were oppressive and repressive symbols. What the ruling party then did was this. In addition to the statues, there were paintings of former Cabinet Ministers hung on the walls and, hon Chairperson, you will remember that. The ruling party took these matters to the Rules Committee and they were then removed to what the journalists facetiously called Boerrasic Park. However, what I’m saying is that it is quite interesting that I’m here today in this Chamber and the hon Minister of Arts and Culture has been dealing with this very sensitive issue of statues and their implications for the nation.
The second very interesting historical coincidence is that the first question that has been posed to me is about asbestos schools. I attended high school in Lenasia, which was a segregated area in terms of the Group Areas Act. There were rows upon rows of asbestos buildings and there were more than a thousand learners there. Just a few months ago I was invited to the 60th celebration of that particular school that I attended, which is now a state-of-the-art brick and mortar school. The asbestos has been replaced and it’s a fully integrated school. It’s no longer an Indian school; it is Lenasia Secondary School. The learner population is 70% African and 30% Indian, everybody is happy and there’s integration and coexistence. So, that perhaps is a celebration of our democracy, but it also makes me proud to be here in this Chamber at this time to respond to these questions.
The easy response to the question is that the Department of Basic Education, with the support of the Presidency, embarked on a programme called the Accelerated Schools Infrastructure Delivery Initiative, Asidi, which was aimed at eliminating mud schools and unsafe schools. This programme was launched several years ago and has been successful in all the provinces. The only outstanding mud schools are now in the Eastern Cape.
The hon Minister of Health was at that time the MEC for education in Limpopo and he will recollect how he, as leader, was able to eliminate and remove all mud schools and replace them with state-of-the-art schools.
Therefore, the answer to the question is, yes, indeed, unsafe schools and mud schools have to be replaced and the process is ongoing, as I have indicated just in terms of my own history.
In the Western Cape, for example, there are the plankie schools. We have already replaced 12 of them with state-of-the-art schools with laboratories and ICT facilities. They are fully furnished and extremely beautiful schools. The beneficiaries of those schools are mainly our coloured and African children in the context of the Western Cape.
The other element to this is that there are regulations that have been put in place, in which there are norms and standards. Provincial departments have a responsibility to ensure that they comply with these standards. Where there are unsafe schools, schools made out of metal, wood and asbestos, which are not fit for the health and wellbeing of our learners, they have to be prioritised. A period of three years has been set aside for those structures to be replaced that are fully made of these materials, and seven years for those that are partially made of those materials. The progress in relation to that, with the collaboration of the national department, has been excellent. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
Ms L L ZWANE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms L L ZWANE: Chairperson, I’m standing in for hon Mququ. Hon Deputy Minister, thank you for the response. It was quite clear.
One would assume that all provinces subscribe to Asidi and all provinces are recipients of grants for infrastructure development. However, there are reports that in the Eden District in the Western Cape there are a number of schools that are roofed with asbestos and it’s posing a health hazard for the learners and teachers alike.
Can the national Department of Basic Education assist in facilitating in this situation and ensuring that it is turned around, and seeing to it that the Western Cape education department is fast enough in ensuring that these structures are removed because they are a health hazard? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, hon member. Indeed, our responsibility as the Department of Basic Education and as a Ministry is to ensure that our learners, wherever they might be, whether they are in the Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal or in any other province, are taken care of.
The reality in relation to the Western Cape is that we have already replaced 12 unsafe schools, the plankie schools and asbestos schools, with state-of-the-art schools, each costing no less than R35 million, fully equipped with halls and some of them even with dance classes. These are state-of-the-art schools. If you go around the Cape Flats you will say, “Well, I don’t have any problem with sending my child to a school with this kind of infrastructure and facilities.”
As we speak right now, there are another 13 schools under construction - 12 have already been completed and delivered - which we hope will be completed by the end of the financial year. That is the contribution of the national department through the Asidi programme, which is managed through the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission itself.
Then there is obviously the responsibility, through the infrastructure grants that the Western Cape receives, for it to basically play its part. They have worked collaboratively with the Department of Basic Education to ensure that we do not duplicate our work and our targets, but we work in a co-operative manner in order to ensure that the problem with regard to unsafe structures, particularly asbestos in our plankie schools, is eliminated. So, the future does look good for the children in the Western Cape and elsewhere in the country.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, thank you for the answer. According to my statistics, your department has identified 510 schools countrywide that have been built with inappropriate materials. Against the background that only 107 out of the 510 schools that had been identified have been transformed since 2011, I just want to know whether the department will still reach its target of completing this transformation in this financial year. If not, why not, and what are the mechanisms that you will put in place to fast-track the process, if you can’t do that?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you, hon member. It is quite interesting, because yesterday a political party, the EFF, indicated that we had delivered or completed only 51 schools, whereas in fact we have delivered 108 schools.
As we speak right now, more than 100 schools are under construction in the Eastern Cape alone. Bizana in the Eastern Cape, for example, has already received 41 state-of-the-art schools. That is just in one district. Within the next six weeks four schools will be delivered in the Free State.
So, we have successfully, since the beginning of last year, delivered more than a school per week, and these are not just ordinary schools comprising four classes; they are state-of-the-art schools with all the facilities and fully furnished.
I do believe that if we continue with the same resolve and the better, more efficient organisation that we have put in place to ensure that things are delivered more efficiently, much more economically and in a much more comprehensive way, we will succeed in eliminating the phenomenon.
The phenomenon of mud schools, for example, existed not only in the Eastern Cape, but also in KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Free State and some parts of the North West province. It does not now exist in any of the provinces except for the Eastern Cape. That’s why the Eastern Cape has become the primary beneficiary of this particular programme to replace mud schools and unsafe schools. However, that does not detract from our responsibility to the other provinces. Indeed, the Western Cape is the second biggest recipient of this particular intervention. Thank you.
Ms L MATHYS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms L MATHYS: Hon Chair, I would like to ask the Deputy Minister how many schools need upgrading or renovation to meet the minimum norms and standards, just countrywide, just a figure so that we know what we are talking about in comparison to how many have been built? How many require renovation or need to be upgraded to meet the norms and standards that the Department of Education has set? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the question is about asbestos schools. If the hon member had indicated to me that she would be talking about schools complying with the norms and standards, I would have been more than happy to bring this information with me.
What I can do is to provide that to the hon member as soon as I can. The information is available, because each province has its challenges and these details are set out in terms of its projections. All provinces, in terms of the law and the regulations, have to provide a report annually in regard to what the status quo is with regard to unsafe schools; what they have done in order to comply with this; and what their plans are for the future. Therefore, this information can be made available to the hon member on request. Thank you.
Mr L B GAEHLER
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Deputy Minister, thank you for your reply. I concur with you that there are quite a number of schools that have been improved by the Asidi programme, especially in the Eastern Cape. The Asidi programme is being managed by the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA.
My question is a small one. The service providers who are doing the work have a major problem because they are not being paid on time. Can your department intervene so that the service providers are paid on time? Most of them are from the emerging sector. Could you please intervene? I remember that I gave a letter to the Deputy President regarding the matter. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, indeed, if at all any evidence is presented to us that service providers are not being paid in terms of the contractual obligations of the employer, then we will make the intervention immediately. If the hon member could provide us with the information, we would be very happy to deal with the matter swiftly, in fact, immediately. Thank you so much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 89
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 70
Question 89:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, it’s an extremely long response, but I will try to distil the key elements from the response for the benefit of the House.
The measures that have been taken by the Department of Basic Education to improve learner performance in the National Senior Certificate are as follows.
Firstly, there is the provision of additional learning and teaching support material, LTSM. Examples of this are exemplars, so that learners can basically have exemplars of what they can expect in a matric examination. There is also the Mind the Gap series, which has been a very, very effective and useful series, where we have made an analysis of the various examination papers and discovered where the gaps in learning are. We have provided exemplars in those particular areas in order for the learners to perform the exercises and strengthen their abilities in those areas. We have supported that with guides for educators to ensure that they too have the appropriate skills. We have provided DVDs and also mathematics and science textbooks – the Siyavula Shuttleworth textbooks – to all Grade 10, 11 and 12 learners. Every black and white child in quintile 1 to quintile 5 schools has been the recipient of those books, which have contributed very positively and meaningfully to an improvement in the matric results.
Secondly, we now have a broadcasting platform that runs on two channels, Channel 201, which is the OpenView channel, and Channel 319, which is dedicated to education. Through our collaboration with Mindset Learn and other entities, we are able to broadcast matric and senior examination content and material to our learners, particularly in the areas of mathematics, science, accountancy and languages.
The third element to improve our results was this. There is a reality that we have to acknowledge. Given the diversity of our country and the disadvantages that an African child has who has no exposure to English, which becomes his or her language of learning, particularly in the rural areas, we have basically ensured that we embed English through the curriculum itself. So, regarding our teacher development programmes, that is a technique that we have promoted in teacher development. In regard to the curriculum itself, we make sure that we strengthen the ability of learners in the language of learning and teaching, which is English after Grade 4. We believe it will also contribute very meaningfully to that.
Fourthly, we have also provided ICT wherever appropriate. We have provided 165 teacher resource centres countrywide, of which 103 are fully connected. We have dedicated ICT laboratories, where you have a professional community in regard to learning practices emerging amongst clusters of schools, where teachers are trained in areas where they lack competency, and where there are deficits in their abilities.
This, together with the DVDs, and the voice-over and multimedia resources that we provide to schools does indeed, in our opinion, contribute positively to the improvement in the performance of our learners.
In addition to that there are the vacation schools, winter schools, summer schools and spring schools. There are also many thousands of teachers who are providing their services voluntarily to our learners to ensure that they enhance their improvement in regard to the quality of education. Thank you very much.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I want to thank the Deputy Minister for what is being done. However, what still worries me is that the improvement in the National Senior Certificate pass rate must be measured against the performance indicators. I am looking at the educators, and what testing and training they go through to measure up to these performance indicators. Could the Deputy Minister help us out with that please?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, hon member. Hon Chair, it’s a very important question, because a successful learning environment basically depends on the performance of the learners on the one hand, and the ability and the performance of the educators on the other hand.
As I indicated earlier, we have a dedicated focus on professional teacher development, and the 165 sites that I spoke about are across the country in order to make them accessible.
What we have done is very interesting. We have ensured that we develop self-assessment tools that are unobtrusive. So, every educator in every subject in every grade is able to assess his or her ability in terms of content knowledge across the curriculum, and is able to determine precisely where the gaps are.
As we speak right now, we have completed the English task. In fact, there are more than 2 000 items, and teachers are already going voluntarily to assess their abilities across the grades in regard to English. We are busy with mathematics and we are going to be busy with science and accountancy, and we hope progressively within the next 18 months to have completed the entire curriculum content. That basically allows an educator to assess what his or her ability is, not in a punitive manner, but in an unobtrusive and private manner. That will instil confidence and it will allow us to fill in the appropriate gaps in learning. That’s the first element.
The second element is in relation to the performance of our learners. Our country does something which no other country in the world does. Every year we test more than 7,2 million learners from Grade 1 to Grade 6, and then Grade 9, in terms of their literacy and numeracy skills. So, we can tell you diagnostically what the assessment of every child, in every grade, in every school, in every district, in every province across the country is. We are also able to determine, year after year, whether there is progress or regress.
More importantly, we are able to assess where the learning and teaching gaps are. What we have seen in terms of these assessments and assessment targets is that there has been a steady improvement. In fact, there has been a marked improvement, particularly in the foundation and intermediate phases. For example, we have discovered that in the senior phase, in other words senior high school, in Grades 7, 8 and 9, there is a particular difficulty, and that has basically focused our attention, in collaboration with all nine provinces, on this particular area.
There are targets, and if you look at the National Senior Certificate examination, you will see that we have gone beyond the targets. So, we are in line with our targets, which are monitored by the Presidency. I believe that the challenge is huge, but we will just have to be as resolute as we are right now and continue to look forward to greater improvement in the quality of our education. Thank you, hon Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr W F FABER: Chair, I thank the Minister. Minister, the World Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness Report clearly states that South Africa is 144th out of 144 countries in terms of the quality of its mathematics and science education.
Minister, I have been serving on the Basic Education committee for the past five years, and what you have just told us was told to me five years ago, when you were serving on that same committee. I would like to know why, in six years, nothing has improved, because we are still 144th out of 144. I need to know what new plans you are going to put on the table, because these are our children. Unfortunately, in the last five years the situation has not improved with regard to mathematics and science.
I believe that most probably the problem is not just with the children or with the programmes that we have. Perhaps we need to look at the teachers and the programmes to actually educate teachers to teach people better.
Hon Minister, I would like to know what you believe and what programmes you can put in place, so that in the next five years we will not stand and look at each other as we are doing today.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, hon member. I think the starting point is to basically assess what this Global Competitiveness Report is, and who the analysts are. Are they academics? Are they analysts? Is there empirical evidence?
This report is compiled on the basis of engagement with the private sector. People in the corporate sector are asked what their opinion is. On the basis of the level of opinions and responses to those opinions, they make a determination of where you are located. So, there is no scientific or empirical analysis of the performance of learners year after year. They do not say that this is the yardstick, measurement or instrument that they use.
If you speak about the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, Timms, for example, then I would say that this is a scientific document which you can measure in terms of ability. However, this report itself is really a report of opinions. Now, I’m not at all suggesting that we have achieved the optimal level that we want to achieve, but what I can say with conviction is that we are moving away from mediocrity, and year after year we are improving on our performance.
Let us give you a few examples. Just three to four years ago the number of learners that passed mathematics was 28%. This was four years ago in the A grade, in the A stream, 28 000. Currently, those who pass mathematics above 50% are 67 000. So, that has more than doubled. Those who have passed mathematics countrywide, including those who have passed with between 40% and 50%, amount to about 117 000. It’s almost trebled. Now if that is not progress, and indeed our examination papers are internationally benchmarked, then please tell me that I am wrong. The evidence is there.
So, there is improvement, even though it is not as marked as we would like. What are we doing differently? We have what we call the 1+4 Model, where teachers within school clusters get together and prepare lessons for the week. They then meet again in order to say that in mathematics these are the lessons they have prepared, these are the improvements that they have seen and this is what they have tested. This means that it is as a result of a collective and collaborative effort that we are making changes.
Let’s look at a province such as the Eastern Cape, for example. Cradock has achieved more than 80%. It never did so in the past. Qunu achieved above 75%. It never did so in the past. It means that as a result of these initiatives, the interventions at district level are yielding results – not in the historically well performing districts, such as Port Elizabeth and East London, but in your Cradocks and Qunus. That means that there is hope for a better future. You talk about five years ago, but the Eastern Cape, for example, didn’t even reach 52% then. Now it is almost at 65%. If that is not qualitative change, then what is?
Today we can say that out of those who sit for the matric examination, one out of three can go to a university, one out of three can go to a university of technology, and one out of three can go to a college. It’s not as great as it should be, but it’s certainly very different from the 16% to 18% that we had five years ago. Thank you very much, hon Chair. [Applause.]
Mr V E MTILENI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you, Chair. Deputy Minister, what are you doing about bogus companies or individuals that are selling matric certificates in most parts of this country? We read in newspapers and see that there are companies in some parts of South Africa where such practices are taking place.
I also want to do know whether you can conduct audits to determine whether some officials in municipalities and government departments are involved, or have submitted matric certificates or certificates for some of the standards that they have gone through. I want to know if you can do something about that. Thanks.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, hon member. I think you have raised a very important point. Basically, the point is that the credibility and integrity of our system of education must not be doubted, because it then diminishes the value of that particular document. Therefore, we have dedicated regulations and irregularities committees in each one of the provinces, which oversee this process.
Our examination system is regarded as being amongst the best in the world. It doesn’t mean that we don’t have faults. For example, we discovered irregularities with regard to mass copying. It’s something we had to deal with. However, whenever we come across anybody who tries to sell a fraudulent certificate, we immediately lay criminal charges, and they must be dealt with to the full extent of the law. We cannot condone that kind of dishonesty.
With regard to the registration of educators, that is the task of the SA Council for Educators. That is one of its primary tasks. They have to maintain and manage the code of ethics and the discipline of educators.
We have requested them to ensure that they screen educators and also ensure that they authenticate whatever is submitted. So, it’s something that is important, because we want legitimate, qualified educators to teach in our schools. Otherwise, it’s not in the best interests of our learners and it will certainly disturb the integrity and credibility of the system. So thank you, hon member. I hope that my response helps you in understanding what we seek to do.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy Minister, thank you for your answers. I would like to know whether the policy and practice with regard to progression, as opposed to the passing of learners, contribute negatively or positively to the improvement of the poor National Senior Certificate, in the light of the fact that the culling of learners in Grade 10, in order to improve the National Senior Certificate pass rate, is very often the result of this policy.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I think it’s a very important question, so thank you for that. Hon members, what is important for us to understand is that education is a continuum. It starts with preschool education, and then goes through the foundation phase, the intermediate phase, the senior phase, and the further education and training band.
What occurred in the past was that there was basically a focus on the last three years in the FET band, in other words, Grades 10, 11 and 12. That is indeed where the culling took place. We said that it doesn’t help if you don’t pay attention to the other phases. In my earlier response I said that we detected this from our Annual National Assessments. That is why for this year we are going to be testing all Grade 7s and 8s as well. So, it will now be nine million learners that will be writing the examination to determine precisely where the weaknesses are.
Progression means that a learner should not be allowed to fail more than once in a phase. That is important, because what it then says is that you have a responsibility, not only in the FET band, but in every phase of education, to ensure that that learner receives the appropriate support.
We have just introduced a policy, in consultation with the MECs. We can almost say that we are in a pilot phase. We are going to carefully observe and monitor it, and determine whether we are going too fast with it. Should we hold back? Should we do so incrementally? Or should we do it phase by phase?
I cannot in all honesty say to you that there is empirical evidence that shows that what we are introducing is going to yield the results we anticipate. What I can say to you is that we will be honest enough to come back to you next year and say to you that this has been our assessment. We might have to refine it, we might have to change it, or we might have to carry on more resolutely, depending on what it yields in terms of the performance of learners across the phases.
Let’s put it this way. We are in a trial phase and we are hoping for the best. The positive element of this, in other words, is that in every phase heads of departments across the system have a responsibility for ensuring that they provide the appropriate support for deficits in learning.
Those of you who are in education will recognise that when you go to high schools, they usually say that primary schools are not doing their work. When you go to the FET band, they say not enough attention is paid to this in Grades 7, 8 and 9, and what is delivered to them are not adequately qualified or competent learners. So, we are saying that we should look at all the phases and have the same yardstick across the phases so that the continuum is basically the measurement.
I cannot anticipate or give assurances about how successful we are going to be, given the fact that it’s so new. However, I do hope it yields results. If we have to revisit or review it, we will be honest enough, as we have been in the past, and say that we have tried it, but perhaps we have been too fast, that we should do it a little more incrementally or progressively. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION – Question 47
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 89
Question 47:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, with your permission I have a request here. The hon Minister of Health wishes just to correct something that has not been reflected appropriately in regard to the asbestos element. Given his former status as an MEC for education, and also his responsibility as a Health Minister for the wellbeing of the entire population, including our 12 million learners, I would be grateful if you could allow that intervention. It would be with your permission and the permission of the House. It’s unprecedented and unusual, but I think it would be very informative. I would be grateful for your permission, hon Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think we will allow the Minister when he deals with his questions to sneak that in, because we have already passed the question dealing with asbestos, asbestosis and tuberculosis. If the Minister pleases, can we give him that space when he responds?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you so much, hon Chairperson. They say one must try in life, and do so politely! But we do respect the authority of the Chairperson, and indeed my colleague cannot accuse me of not having tried on his behalf.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have tried, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The reply, would it be to Question 106, hon Chairperson?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is Question 47, which is “whether she will review the current post provisioning model”. That is from the hon Gaehler of the Eastern Cape UDM.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Oh, yes. I am sorry. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I can honestly say that I was distracted by the hon Minister of Health.
The answer is a very short one. The current post provisioning model has been reviewed to include Grade R. The weighting of subjects in all grades is being reviewed to address curriculum delivery. Once a proposal has been formulated, all stakeholders will be consulted for final approval by the Council of Education Ministers.
Just to assist esteemed members, in 2002 there were already 4 000 learners in Grade R. Currently we have more than 830 000 learners in Grade R.
A Grade R class is very different from a Grade 1 class, because children learn by play; hence you have a jungle gym. The practitioner in a Grade R class has to be appropriately skilled. When we expanded the numbers because of the shortage of teachers, there were practitioners who did not even have a Level 4 qualification. We have basically made that a minimum, and we are moving towards a Level 6 qualification.
The stipends that were paid across the provinces differed. Some were paid as little as R500 to R1 000. Now, the minimum amount across the country is R5 000.
The intention is to progressively integrate the practitioners once they have the appropriate qualifications. We can’t do it at the stroke of a pen, because you might find thousands of learners without a practitioner or a teacher.
But, what we can say is that we do have a curriculum and we do have a minimum requirement. Thousands upon thousands of educators are being trained, and more than one third are already in Level 5 and Level 6. That is a good sign for the future, and we just have to accelerate that. Thank you very much.
Mr L B GAEHLER
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr L B GAEHLER: Thank you for the reply, hon Deputy Minister.
Post provisioning is an important tool for ensuring quality education. However, if this is not integrated from the lowest level of formal education, it will have shortcomings.
We should also consider ensuring that the current model takes into consideration the dynamics that confront curriculum delivery in particular rural areas.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much for that question, hon member. Indeed, we agree with you, because that is perhaps the most important phase in the education of a child. If the child is taught wrongly by the practitioner, the child has to be taught to unlearn what has been taught in wrong way. Therefore, the skills and competencies of a practitioner are important. The ruling party, as well as the government, have said that in principle they want to integrate them. The question is how and when.
Given these realities of the massive expansion taking place in such a short space of time, and the intensive movement towards qualification, I believe that it is only a matter of time. Very soon we will be able to submit to Parliament, as well as to the Council of Education Ministers’ meeting, a proposal that has emerged as a result of the analysis in the direction you have indicated. Thank you very much.
Mr V E MTILENI
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
Mr V E MTILENI: Deputy Minister, early childhood development is under Health and Social Development. We know this because it is taking place in our areas. Wouldn’t it be better if, maybe as a department, you could make a plea that early childhood development is transferred to Basic Education, because those people are the ones who are actually dealing with the foundation phase of the education system. Sometimes it is a worrying factor when we see them going home or spending many months without salaries. When they follow this up, the department always tells them that there is no budget to expend for them. Therefore, wouldn’t it be better if you were to transfer this to Basic Education, so that you can concentrate on them and make sure that these people are remunerated fairly well. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the hon member is raising a very important issue. Early childhood development is a significant part of our strategic plan, as well as being the recommendation of the National Development Plan. However, early childhood development is not preschool; early childhood development is from birth to the age of nine years. That is the international standard in regard to early childhood development.
However, I do understand the context of the question. The context of the question is simply this. Grade R has now been assigned to the Department of Basic Education, which department assumes full responsibility for the curriculum, the practitioners and the resources available there.
Currently your four-year-olds are being managed at crèches by the Department of Social Development. However, there is a collaboration agreement between the Department of Social Development, the Department of Health and the Department of Basic Education. Therefore, to the extent that they require screening and other assistance, the hon Minister of Health has basically made his intervention. To the extent that one will look at the social development needs, the hon Minister of Social Development is working on those particular areas. We as the Department of Basic Education work very closely with the Department of Social Development to ensure that we provide support in terms of curriculum.
What we can share with you is that in collaboration with the two departments we have developed a curriculum for zero to four-year-olds. So that is a positive step forward.
Let us look at the consequences. At times we make a statement without looking at the context. If we were to move our four-year-olds to our schools, we would have to build more than 27 000 classes alone. Can we do that immediately? We would have to have another 27 000 trained practitioners and resources for those learners, from a budget that is already under severe pressure. I think it would be premature that we do have a resource.
What we have to do well and, indeed, this is already happening with the collaboration of the Department of Social Development and the Setas, is that we are training those people responsible for the teaching of Grades 0 to 4.
The Minister of Social Development will tell you that, beyond the two years that are recommended by the NDP, she is paying particular attention to the first 1 000 days. That is from a health perspective, from a social development perspective and from an education perspective. This is because social scientists are saying to us, and we certainly support it, that in the first 1 000 days of a child’s life both emotional and cognitive development are the most important. Thank you very much.
Ms L L ZWANE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, given the complexities of the curriculum, and therefore the need to develop and capacitate teachers that are curriculum dispensers, I think the value of the subject advisory services comes in very handy, but the tendency has been to deploy them to higher grades, not to the foundation phase.
Is there a plan by the Department of Basic Education to ensure that there is deployment of the services even to the foundation phase, because the intention is to lay a good foundation so that it becomes easy to progress thereafter. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: [Inaudible.] I am going to try to be very brief. The answer to that is yes. In fact, what we have done, firstly, is that we have defined the roles and responsibilities of subject advisors.
Secondly, we have also ensured that there is an apportionment of subject advisors to the high schools and the primary schools, so that we do not have the previous bias, where most of them were allocated to the high schools and hardly any were allocated to the primary schools.
Thirdly, there is special training for the subject advisors, in particular in the foundation phase given its importance.
Fourthly, even our Funza Lushaka Bursary scheme basically provides better opportunities for those who want to teach in the foundation phase.
Therefore it’s a multifaceted attempt, which speaks to what you are raising quite correctly, hon member. If we do that well, we will certainly create a wonderful foundation for our learners to excel in future years. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms E C VAN LINGEN
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, the Minister has just mentioned the Funza Lushaka Bursary scheme for the foundation phase students. The problem we are experiencing at the moment is the criteria that were brought in, where those that qualify for the bursary must now do an African language. The problem is that the current students that are studying now, since the criteria were changed, did not have the opportunity of doing those subjects at school. Had they known that this would be the criterion, they would’ve done an African language at school.
Therefore, should one not perhaps consider a phase-in period over the next three years, so that the current students can benefit from the bursary system? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, I want to be very honest – I am not aware of this changed requirement. It may be something that is being envisaged, given the fact that from next year we are incrementally introducing, year after year, an indigenous African language in a school that does not teach an African language, for social cohesion. It is at the level of communicative competence, and professional development will take place.
The assurance that I can give to the hon member is that no person who is the recipient of a bursary will be prejudiced because of his or her lack of ability in an indigenous African language now. It might be a requirement for the future, and I believe that the department will reflect very carefully on how this occurs.
Let me just give you an example of the equity and the parity of languages. You have hundreds of educators who teach in Afrikaans who are the recipients of the bursaries. Not very long ago I was personally in the Eastern Cape, where we deployed more than 400 Funza Lushaka bursary holders in the East London and Port Elizabeth areas. There are Afrikaans-speaking learners, and this was to enable them to teach in those areas out there.
I think we are very sensitive to language diversity, and we will be more cautious, but I want to be very emphatic about one thing, that this nation deserves the cohesive effect of multilingualism. Where our children cannot speak an indigenous African language, certainly they must be given the opportunity. That is precisely what the hon member is saying. Therefore, we agree with you fully.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 73
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 47
Question 73:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, given the time, I will respond as follows. In order to prevent learner drop-out the following have taken place.
Firstly, the department has what we call the National Learner Unit Record Information and Tracking System, in which the data of more than 95% of learners has already been captured, such as their names, their parents and their performance in terms of the Annual National Assessments, and so on. With this system we will be able monitor their progress from year to year and be able to make the appropriate interventions.
The second one is the Annual National Assessments, which I have spoken about, and which will indicate the areas of deficit where an intervention should take place. The third is the attempt at a progression policy, which will make sure that we provide support to learners. The fourth will be the provision of learner support material to our learners.
More than 54 million books on literacy and numeracy are distributed annually. They go to every single child in our public schools in order to promote and enhance literacy and numeracy. We believe that in time this will have the appropriate effect, and the performance of our learners, certainly in the next generation, will be far, far better than those of the current generation. Thank you.
Ms E PRINS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms E PRINS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Minister, what are the main factors contributing to the drop-out problem, especially in rural areas?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Poverty is always a condition that we have to deal with, but it should not be an excuse. However, these are some of the difficulties out there.
The impact of something so simple that people don’t even reflect on it, nutrition, is so great. We feed more than 9,7 million children every day. There is empirical evidence that that has contributed to better learner attendance and better performance as well. So there is the nutrition element.
The hon Minister of Health is sitting here and he is basically working very closely with the Department of Basic Education. We are collaborating on the screening of our quintile 1 and 2 learners. He will be able to tell you that some 40% of the children that have been tested in the foundation phase have visual defects. These are some of the factors.
Third is the issue of resources. Again we have made remarkable strides. Just take a Grade R child - forget about a Grade 1 child. That child receives eight books free of charge, delivered to his or her school. It does not matter whether you are black or white, or whether you are in quintile 1 or quintile 5. That is quite tremendous. So, resources are better.
Obviously professional teacher development is critical and central. That will contribute to mitigating the rate of drop-out, because children will have more confidence.
Most important obviously is the learner environment, and the infrastructure programme would contribute meaningfully to that.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, my province is rather proud of the fact that it has the highest pass rate in the country. However, in 2014 the Free State and the North West provinces – the two top performers – had the worst drop-out rates. Does the Minister agree that some provinces focus only on getting Grade 12s through matric, and don’t focus nearly enough on ensuring that more learners reach Grade 12 in the first place?
Secondly, should the provinces with the lowest drop-out rates not rather receive this credit. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I think the provinces ... [Inaudible] ... their learners longer in school should indeed receive the credit.
What is very interesting is that our girl learners are staying in school much longer than our boy learners. That is a very positive element, notwithstanding the teenage pregnancies. The evidence is clearly there.
Gauteng was indeed the best performing province until the supplementary examinations were written, and the North West, my dear friend, is now the number one province.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is number one! [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: However, I am not going to take the credit for that, nor is the hon Chairperson, but it is the reality.
What that tells us really is the competitive nature amongst provinces. Before it would be either the Western Cape or Gauteng. Now it is the Free State or North West, and everybody is in the mix. This means that the country is now basically working cohesively on one system of education and that competition really enhances better performance.
The progression policies aimed at the different phases say that you can’t look at performance and measure it against Grade 12. It is what happens in the entire system, and we believe that to correct the entire system from the foundation phase up will basically sustain quality education in the long term. Thank you.
Ms L MATHYS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms L MATHYS: Chairperson, why does the department omit including the figures for the learners who have dropped out? When we get the matric results to show us how many have passed and how many have failed, they do not include those numbers and speak to the question that the hon Deputy Minister also asked. It does not include that. This is going to help us get a more accurate reflection of the state of basic education in our country. So, why is that done? Can we start including the drop-out figures for the matriculants? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, that is a very important question, and we welcome it. I think that what we have established is, and we have data on it, that the drop-outs occur principally and primarily in the last phase – that is, in the FET band. The reasons for it are possibly demotivated learners, learners who do not feel that they are competent enough, and learners who go into vocational streams, such as the FET colleges, bearing in mind that just in the past three years they have increased their enrolment by more than 300 000. That is in three years alone. So these are factors that contribute to that.
However, I do believe that the weak point is really that the focus in the past was only on the FET band, rather than on the entire system. What we are saying is that we must focus on every single phase, and the progression policy now basically says that we should track the learner in the foundation phase, in the intermediate phase, in the senior phase and in the FET band. In that way we will have a better understanding of what is right and what is wrong in the system.
So, hon member, your question and your concern are legitimate. What I can tell you is that the retention rate up to Grade 9 exceeds 90%. When you go to the FET band it drops to slightly below 85%, and that is where your problem area is now. However, the problem area has its roots not in the FET band but in its earlier phase. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That would be across the languages. If I understood the hon Mathys right, she said that the drop-out figures do not even give us the breakdown in terms of the languages that the learners are involved in.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Oh, that helps us a lot. Oh, thank you. I did not catch that part of the question.
Language is a very serious barrier, especially for a non-English or non-Afrikaans-speaking learner. In fact, the evidence is there that some learners even have great difficulty in dealing with problem questions in science and mathematics because of language challenges. So, they might be good mathematically and conceptually, but because of the language proficiency, they have difficulties. For that reason we have embedded English across the curriculum to ensure that we are able to mitigate that particular problem. I thank the hon member for raising that.
Mr B G NTHEBE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Thank you so much, Chair. Deputy Minister, in your response you have explicitly demonstrated how alive the department is to the issue of the drop-outs. Would you agree with me that the adult matric is one of the mitigating provisions to ensure that such drop-outs are then carried over so that there can be progression. Also, if the adult matric is one of them, what are the others? This is just so that we can understand. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, you have raised a very important matter. It is basically: What happens to the learner who is unable to pass matric? Does he or she get a second chance? The answer is yes, he or she must get a second chance.
What the department is now doing is strengthening its face-to-face contact with those who are going to sit for the second chance. Then there is also an innovation from the Department of Higher Education and Training, to give the opportunity of a second chance to those learners who have not passed matric. That, in my opinion, will contribute to a positive change.
Now people might think that the supplementary examinations are not important, but let’s just look at what happened last year. The overall performance of the learners contributed to a 1,3% national increase in the achievement level of our results. So, supplementary examinations are the first avenue.
Then you have to basically have second chance opportunities at different venues and colleges. There is a conversation that is taking place between the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Higher Education and Training.
Lastly, I just want to indicate to you that yesterday the Minister made an announcement that what we are introducing next year is a second stream of the National Senior Certificate examination, where you have technical mathematics and technical science for those who are inclined to more artisanal trades. So, basically, if you don’t want to go to university and you want to do the intermediate phase, do you require academic subjects or pure mathematics, or do you require practical mathematics or practical science?
The textbooks are already developed and designed and ready for printing. They are already electronically digitised. We are ready for that, come next year. The first phase is the vocational phase and the second phase will be the occupational phase. A variety of 26 subject choices will be made available, other than the academic stream. We do believe that that will mitigate very considerably the drop-out rate of those who are in the academic stream but do not wish to pursue an academic career, as you correctly pointed out. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 106
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 73
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Question 106:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we proceed to Question 106. It was posed by the hon Julius. The hon Van Lingen will be responsible for the follow-up. It is the question that deals with the vetting of educators, Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: [Inaudible.] ... find the document, but it is very easy to say I think it’s important for us to vet. We support and endorse the sentiment over there.
The vetting of educators takes place through the SA Council for Educators, and we directed that the provinces should be alive to it and that they must monitor that process, because provinces deploy educators in their respective provinces. They have to take the responsibility of ensuring that the SA Council for Educators has vetted those educators.
I would imagine the question is basically whether the person has been involved in any abuse, sexual abuse or otherwise, or in any form of violence against children. If that is the case, he or she will not be qualified to teach in the school.
So, we certainly believe that all our educators should be vetted, because they represent the caregiver, the father, the mother figure in the classroom. Thank you very much.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, in a reply to a DA parliamentary question about a month ago, the hon Minister admitted that nearly 380 000 educators employed in public schools have not been vetted against the Child Protection Register. This is very concerning. So, what is being done? You have just said it is the provincial departments who must see to it, but surely there must be measures in place to enforce such vetting? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chair, I think this is something about the Department of Basic Education – it doesn’t conceal the truth; it tells the truth. It’s a matter of grave concern to us.
We have directed provinces to pay particular attention to this and obviously, as the national department, we will have to monitor their performance. So, if we find that a province has vetted only 20% of its educators, we will have to make the appropriate intervention, informed by the realities of that particular province.
We cannot now generalise and say all provinces are not vetting them. It might be three of the nine provinces that are not doing their work effectively, which affects the more than 470 000 educators that we have in the system.
So, you know, I am just saying that we should look at what we have, and those that have not been vetted yet. Even one educator that has not been vetted is one too many. Thank you.
Mr H B GROENEWALD
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, I wish to ask the hon Minister this. Against the background of the nonvetting of 380 000 educators employed in the public schools, is every case of sexual or physical abuse of learners by educators reported in all schools and in every province, and what are the relevant details?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, if any criminal activity has been involved, such as sexual abuse or rape or assault, then it is the responsibility of the school to ensure that a charge is laid, and obviously the province has a responsibility to collect that data from time to time. I think that we should keep a meticulous record of the particular situations.
But, given the fact that our schools are within the purview of the province – for example, the MEC for education in the Western Cape is responsible for the management and the functioning of those schools – we cannot go to a school and basically demand the data, unless she or he consents to that. I am just giving Western Cape as an example. It would apply to any other province.
Therefore, what we have to do better is look at this matter more closely. We would also certainly raise it at the next Council of Education Ministers meeting and say that, given this important responsibility, whilst it is not our responsibility, we are going to oversee this particular process to make sure that they are more meticulous in ensuring that the educators are vetted.
So, that assurance we can give to the hon member, because it is a matter of concern to us. I am not going to pretend otherwise.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, are you covered?
Mr V E MTILENI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you, Chair. You nearly caught me napping! I just want to know what support has been given to victims of abuse, especially that of racism and sexual assault, since more than 700 cases were reported.
I also want to know from the Deputy Minister if there are perhaps special programmes that are taking place which will help to eliminate this kind of scourge?
I also want to know what happened to a learner who was abused or raped by fellow learners. If my memory serves me well, it could have been in the Eastern Cape. I don’t know if the Minister is aware of that.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, you have one.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I could do the one. Firstly, the responsibility for the discipline and the ethics of educators lies with the SA Council for Educators. We certainly speak to them very frequently and say that they should please make sure that they are diligent in regard to that responsibility. We will not condone any form of abuse.
Secondly, with regard to education, the department has a particular programme in regard to the reproductive rights of our learners, and gender equality. They are made conscious of the facts through the Life Orientation programme – of how they should treated, that dignity should be respected, and what constitutes harassment or sexual abuse. That forms an integral part of the curriculum.
Beyond that there are co-curricular activities, like the Girls’ and Boys’ Education Movement where, amongst peers, they become aware and empower each other in regard to how to say no and not to submit to peer pressure.
Lastly, with the regard to case that the hon member is talking about, I believe that if my reading is as good as his, it would appear that that was a criminal matter. The moment a matter goes to the court of law, it goes, as it were, almost out of the hands of both the SA Council for Educators and the Department of Basic Education. However, if I can get the specific details, we will be able to investigate that and respond to the hon member. Thank you very much.
Mr B G NTHEBE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Thank you so much, Chair. Also, thank you, Deputy Minister.
Is the department still committed to the intervention of bringing in intergovernmental relations in regard to law enforcement, through your department, so as also to raise awareness, because it is in awareness that we are able to create an environment of safety in the school environment. Thanks.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: [Inaudible.] ... question and contribution. Hon chairperson, about 15 000 of our schools are working in collaboration with the SA Police Service in regard to creating a safe environment. They have basically adopted schools across the country, 15 000 of our schools. We are looking at universal adoption, where police officers can engage with learners and discuss these particular issues.
We are also working extremely hard on the psychosocial support that we can provide to our schools, especially those that are traumatised and find it difficult to go to a police station or elsewhere. The Department of Social Development and the Department of Health are working with the Department of Basic Education in this regard.
I think we must continue expanding our programmes. Parental responsibility is also critical, and we’ve empowered our governing bodies and the governing bodies associations in regard to demonstrating the importance of this particular element, which is safety in our schools and our responsibility to provide care. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 77
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 106
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Question 77:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We proceed to Question 77. It is the question asked by the hon Khawula. I have a note that indicates that he has made an arrangement with the hon Masango to put his supplementary question.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the quick response is that 22 schools were allegedly involved in group copying in the 2014 National Senior Certificate examination in KwaZulu-Natal. A total of 14 schools were allegedly involved in group copying in the 2014 National Senior Certificate examination in the Eastern Cape.
I have the names of the schools and the districts in the KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape provinces with me, Chairperson. However, it would take me about two minutes to read them. May I, with your permission, table the names for the House, because they are here?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is allowed under the Rules. Any statistics or names ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: It is allowed, so I could table the names?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: With regard to part (c) of the question, the results of these learners were blocked in the subjects where an irregularity was suspected. A thorough investigation was then conducted, where the individual scripts were audited to identify the specific questions in which specific anomalies could be confirmed. All the learners and the educators who were involved in the examination at the schools were then invited to an interview where the evidence was presented, and the candidates were allowed to present their version of events, of what transpired in the examination room on the day of examination.
On the basis of the investigation, formal charges were formulated, and all the implicated learners were invited to a formal hearing, which has commenced in the Eastern Cape and will commence on 18 May in KwaZulu-Natal province. I might add that by the end of this month, we hope to have both provinces finalise their processes. On the basis of the outcome of the hearings, a sanction will be determined per learner.
However, as a concessionary measure, the Minister of Basic Education has allowed all learners that were implicated to write the supplementary examinations. The basis of this concession was that in most cases the assistance was imposed on the learners by the educators, and the learners did not actively initiate the support. If the imposed support can be verified during the hearings, the supplementary examination results will be recognised and made available to the learners. If learners acted on their own, the normal sanctions will apply, which could include being barred from writing an examination for a period of up to three years. The circumstances will basically determine each case and sanction.
The department is in the process of finalising this matter. The hearings could have been finalised by the end of March 2015 if the candidates had not been granted a concession to write the supplementary examinations. The Minister really thought it would be a magnanimous gesture not to find a person guilty until such time as the process had been completed, and in the meantime to allow that person to sit for the supplementary examinations and not be disadvantaged, perhaps by the activities of other learners other than himself or herself. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
Ms B S MASANGO
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION
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Ms B S MASANGO: Chairperson, I just want to confirm that I am a card-carrying member of the DA in good standing.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is ... [Inaudible.] ..., madam.
Ms B S MASANGO: Thank you, Chairperson, and hon Deputy Minister. What one looks at with this question and the answer is the credibility of the matric results, and the tainting that has happened with the group copying and so on. Does the department have any processes to ensure that the credibility of the matric results is protected? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, obviously, it is a matter of great concern to us. You know, mass copying has never been a phenomenon in the past, but now it has occurred, and we are paying particular attention to this.
The Irregularities Committee has looked at the matter, and amongst the things that are contemplated is basically ranking schools in terms of those that are high risk, moderate risk and low risk. Also included in that – it is not only public schools that are involved as there are private schools involved – is basically even to have particular demands in terms of that.
The issue of invigilation, where the districts and provinces would, in fact, get involved in high risk schools, is something that is being considered, as well as a range of measures that would basically mitigate this possibility in the future.
I think it has been a hard lesson, but it is a lesson that we will take to heart. We should also look at everything in the context of the fact that some 680 000 learners registered for the examination in the country.
Mr B G NTHEBE: Chair, the Deputy Minister went to North West and back with a comprehensive answer. I am covered.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 91
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION – Question 77
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Question 91:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We wish to proceed now to the questions posed to the Minister of Health. Minister, you do have permission to sneak in what you said you wanted to sneak in, regarding the issue of asbestosis or tuberculosis.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity. I thought I would try to ignore Question 70 in regard to Basic Education, but then I thought I would not be doing my work, as we are speaking to leaders here who need to understand.
In fact, there is no learner who will ever get TB because of asbestosis. There is absolutely no relationship between the two. [Interjections.] What exposes people to TB is silicosis, not asbestosis. Silicosis is found in the mines, especially the gold mines.
I am saying so because on Tuesday one of the main themes in my speech was TB, because it is becoming a problem. The most exposed people in this country, if we take it district by district, are from Lejweleputswa in the Free State, because of the gold dumps there, and the second most exposed people are in K K Kaunda in the North West. We have about six districts.
Asbestos exposes people to two things. Firstly, there is the disease called asbestosis. Because asbestos is fibre, when you breathe it in, the fibres are laid down in your lungs. The lung is elastic tissue, and it then stops being elastic. You just find it difficult to breath, because your lungs cannot expand anymore. That is the first one.
The second one is a disease called mesothelioma, which is a cancer of the lining of the lungs. [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, remember that you are stealing your own time. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Yes. Thank you. [Interjections.] No, I have finished. I just wanted to clear that up. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your first question is a question from the hon Mpambo-Sibhukwana.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you. Hon member, I am not sure from your vocabulary whether you understand the difference between a generator and a standby generator, because you made them (aa) and (bb).
All the generators in our hospitals are standby generators, because they only kick in when there is an interruption in the normal grid. The practice of having standby generators in our hospitals is standard. It is not something that is new because Telkom has problems. It is something that has been practised for ages. If they have been neglected, it is a weakness.
However, as an extra precaution because of the present challenges, we actually communicated with MECs in January, and developed a table for them, which they must fill in on a monthly basis.
The table requires, for instance, the date and the time on which the generators are tested; information on whether the generator switches work automatically or somebody has to switch them on when there is load shedding; the time taken to switch over to generators; the time taken for the generator to kick in after load shedding commences; and the quantity of diesel at any one time, if the generator has a diesel engine.
We want the name of the person responsible, because then when generators don’t kick in, as happened at Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital, you know exactly who is responsible. Here, we want a responsible person. We want their mobile phone number, so that we can phone them at any given time.
This what we have been doing since January to try to check whether things are going well. This communication has been despatched to the heads of infrastructure units in all provincial departments.
The costs are difficult to calculate, because it is part of normal maintenance costs of the particular hospital or province. Thank you.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA
The MINISTER OF HEALTH
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, I would just like to say to the Minister that I meant to have said the “standby generators”. You mentioned that I might not know the difference between the two. Minister, I think on your side you might possibly have had a slip of the tongue when you said “Telkom” instead of “Eskom”. It just means that English is not our language, for both of us. Thank you, Minister, on a lighter note.
Private hospitals are generally required to have two standby generators, so that they can provide essential and emergency health care services to our citizens during periods of load shedding. The Department of Health is failing our people in this regard. It cannot deliver essential and emergency health care, as required by its mandate in section 27 of the Constitution, because of needing extra generators when so many emergencies happen at the same time. This is due to countless instances of complete power failures at public hospitals during periods of load shedding.
With this said, Minister, I want to know from you what criteria are laid down for public hospitals with regard to having standby generators and how these will be monitored. Perhaps it could be a real time system to monitor the effectiveness of the generator. Thank you, Minister.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, phones have been ringing in this House. I really think we must respect the House better. Please switch off your phones. I do know that you will tell me that I am jamming something, but the phones are disturbing us.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, I am not sure what criteria are used in that hospital where they need two standby generators. Some have many more than that. It depends on the size of the hospital. We sent electrical and other types of engineers there to assess. They are the ones who determine it. So, there may not necessarily be two.
I have just answered the latter part of the question, hon member. We have sent out a table so that we can check at any one time what is happening in the hospitals. Since we started this process in January and up till now I don’t remember a report of a generator not kicking in after load shedding. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
The MINISTER OF HEALTH
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, the three largest state hospitals in Bloemfontein are Pelonomi Hospital, Universitas Hospital and the National Hospital.
Pelonomi, as I understand, does have sufficient generators. The National Hospital in Bloemfontein has luckily been taken off the grid, since it doesn’t have any generators. Luckily it doesn’t experience load shedding, since it has been taken off the grid.
I have a concern with Universitas Hospital, where there are generators only for the theatres and the ICU. Does the Minister find it concerning that the rest of the hospital is not covered in this way, and will the Minister give an undertaking to look into this and ensure that the rest of the hospital also receives the necessary attention? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Certainly, sir.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, it looks as though the Minister is committing himself in a nice way, so I also want to put in a curveball!
The little Fort England Hospital and the P Z Meyer Hospital in the Eastern Cape do not have standby generators. In fact, I have been trying for four years now to get the standby generator connected at the P Z Meyer TB Hospital. When there is load shedding or a power outage, which happens quite often in the Kruisfontein area in Humansdorp, there is a blackout and they look after the patients at night and in the cold with candles, which I think is a fire risk. Maybe the Minister can make a promise to me too. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: It is grossly irregular if such a thing is happening. It is grossly, grossly irregular. Chair, as I said, in January we sent the table to all the provinces to fill in, so that we can know what is going on at each hospital and any community care centre.
It was after last year when the problem started that the DG wrote to all the HODs asking them to give the names of hospitals or health centres that did not have generators, and we followed that up with these tables. So, if there are any in the Eastern Cape that do not have them, that is grossly irregular. Thank you for that information. I will go and check. It then means that somebody lied to us.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
The MINISTER OF HEALTH
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, mine is not a supplementary question; it is just a friendly point of order. I would like to find out from you, Chairperson, whether these undertakings by the Minister, for which we are very grateful, can also be referred to the Select Committee on Petitions and Executive Undertakings. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We could, if you put it down in a manner which we could follow through procedurally. I think we must also say that the Minister has made an undertaking during a very formal sitting of the NCOP, and that we will follow through. Give him enough time and then follow it up to see that the commitment he made is followed through. You are free to put that in a written petition, so that we can put it through the petitions process.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 84
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 91
Question 84:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, Chairperson. The national Department of Health has not fully quantified the amount paid to settle claims against public health institutions.
However, I need to explain that there is no claim of negligence against any particular practitioner or employer of the Public Service, because it is the state against which there is litigation, not an individual practitioner. The practitioners against whom there is litigation are those in the private sector who are self-employed. Those are the ones who have litigation against them. Otherwise, in the public sector, it is the state. I just wanted to explain that.
In the public sector the claims are submitted to individual provinces. The Minister of Health is only cited as the first respondent as a legal procedure. The people who have litigation against them are the provinces, because they are the ones who are directly running the hospitals. Some lawyers do send copies to me, and others just do not because they know that to be cited is just a legal procedure. So, for that reason it is very difficult to know at any given time how much litigation there is.
To explain the nature of the claims and these problems, the nature of the claims is malpractice, negligence or adverse outcomes. What is meant by “negligence” is when a health worker fails to follow established procedures out of carelessness or maybe out of outright ignorance. The second one, “malpractice”, is when a health worker does something that is forbidden or not normally done.
The third one is not about carelessness or negligence, but it’s what we call “adverse outcomes”. This is where doctors do something, but the results are different from what they were expecting, and these things happen in any health facility all over the world. However, when the lawyers litigate they want to call all of them “negligence”, because it is only through negligence that they will win. I just wanted to explain that this type of thing is something that is expected but undesirable.
So, what measures did we take? We realised that there was an explosion. The issue of medical litigation has existed ever since medicine came into existence. What we are experiencing in South Africa is an abnormal explosion of this, and this explosion coincides, not with increased negligence as people claim, but with the fact that most lawyers were their making money by cheating the Road Accident Fund, and they collapsed it. They actually bankrupted it. So, when the Road Accident Fund changed the law to try to stop that bleeding, lawyers found themselves in hospital.
That is why negligence cases are coming in; it is not something that is happening now. Some of them happened 20 years ago. And, yes, they are going to search for them. For instance, there is a judge who gave a judgement of R34 million for a child with cerebral palsy. Lawyers are literally scanning homes of those with disabilities, looking for children with cerebral palsy, born at whatever time. Once they find them, they say, “Come in,” and they send in a claim.
This is what we are going through and we are not the only country in the world that has gone through this. New Zealand went through it, until the insurance company that was insuring doctors completely collapsed. The United Kingdom went through it and that is why they formed the NHS Litigation Authority. So, we called for a workshop and a summit. One of the answers from that was that we also need a litigation authority like the one that was established in the UK.
Lastly, Chairperson, this phenomenon that we are faced with, which is a very bad phenomenon, is actually what I call the Americanisation of the health care system. Yes, this is a practice that takes place in America – Europe has rejected it – and that is why the cost of health care in America is so high. It is painful to see South Africa following that model, which is so bad. It is called the Americanisation because there, in order to make money out of a doctor or the health care system is something that is in fashion. They sometimes even train people to imitate having a heart attack, collapse and be taken to a doctor, and then they sue that doctor. Yes, these are some of the practices that are happening there and we are crying because that is happening in South Africa, and the people believe that they are being protected.
That is why they use what they call “contingency”. The Director-General of the World Health Organisation warned me the other day that if we follow this American model of contingency, our health care system is going to collapse. What is “contingency”? They don’t charge lawyers’ fees. They say, “Look, you are injured. Fill in these forms. We are going to make money for you, but once the money comes, we will take part of it.” The law allows them 25%, but many of them take much more than what the patient gets. [Time expired.] Yes, thank you.
Ms L C DLAMINI
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH
Ms L C DLAMINI: Thank you very much, hon Chair. Greetings to the hon Minister and hon members. I don’t want to be popular for asking a question for the sake of asking questions.
Siswati:
Ngilingise laba labahlala tinyanga letisitfupha bangeti kuleNdlu, bese batsi nababuya lapha betame kuvala sikhala saleto tinyang; cha, ngenelisekile, Ndvuna lehloniphekile.
Ms L MATHYS: Thank you, Chair. I just want to be clear, hon Minister. Are you saying that we don’t have any figures, or you don’t have any figures, perhaps even for the last financial year, on how much we have been ordered as the state or as the department to pay in any settlement of claims. This is just so that we can have some sort of idea of what is going on in health. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon members, because of what I have said, the figures differ. This is because some of the submissions are done in the Department of Justice and some in the provinces. What we have done since the summit, which we held in March, is we have chosen a task team of experts. We have retired judges, lawyers and doctors who are very experienced in that task team. It is they who are compiling all the information.
That is why we say that we want to form a litigation authority for the country, where all the submissions will have to go. Then we will be able to answer these types of questions timeously. At the moment the figures I have are so different, so disparate, that I don’t want to mislead the House.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: My understanding is that once you do have the figures, you will make them available to Parliament. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 94
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 84
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Question 94:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, this time the question is about the TB defaulter rate over the past 12 months. The TB defaulter rate reflects the number of TB patients who are initiated on treatment and do not complete it within six months. This means that they do not complete the six months’ course. We calculate it by following a cohort of patients for six months.
In 2004 the defaulter rate was 11,3%. It decreased to 9,4% in 2007 and again to 8,2% in 2008. In 2009 it was 7,9%. There was a further decline to 6,6% in 2011-12. Currently, as I’m speaking, the defaulter rate has gone down to 6,2%. Our target was 6%. So we are around the target. It reflects a significant improvement in the manner in which we are dealing with it.
The big change happened in 2009, when we received additional funds from the Treasury to strengthen TB defaulter tracing communities. Funding was used to provide stipends to community health workers and to purchase vehicles to give to health workers to do outreach, to go into outlying areas to look for patients who were defaulting.
Our NGO partners, for instance the Nelson Mandela Aventis Project for Combating TB, which was donor funded, was one of the organisations that helped us in tracing the defaulters. That’s why we are at the level where we think that the defaulter rate is coming down. Thank you.
Ms B S MASANGO
The MINISTER OF HEALTH
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Ms B S MASANGO: Thank you, Chair. Thank you so much, Minister, for the response to the question.
This question was prompted by a plea that we got when we were involved in Taking Parliament to the People and we were in Oudtshoorn. We went to one of the clinics there and the doctor that we spoke to said that if there was anything we could help them with as far as TB was concerned, it was to find ways to enforce people’s not defaulting, because they were seeing an increase. But, from what the Minister has been saying, that is an isolated case.
One would like to know if there is some kind of a system or programme that could be embarked on that would ensure that the defaulter rate stayed down, or even decreased. Thanks, Chair.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I have explained the mechanism through which it came down. However, the permanent mechanism that we are going to put in is that in the re-engineering of primary health care we are going to hire primary health care workers who are generalists. We have already trained 3 000 around the whole country and they are the ones who are going to work on this. We deploy them per municipality ward. We calculate that every municipality ward in the country has to get so many primary health care workers.
In the past they used people who were called direct observation of therapy, DOT, supporters. However, we don’t want people to get into a municipality to do only DOT support. The present training includes training in TB, HIV, pregnancy, maternal and child health, and reproductive health and rights, and 3 000 people have been trained in this way.
Our target is actually to reach 40 000 people in the country, who will be doing that type of work. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 82
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 94
Question 82:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We proceed, hon Minister, to the next question and that is from the hon Matebus. Arrangements have been made that the hon Mathys will be responsible.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the allegations that have been made are against two MECs.
The surprising thing is that one of them is no longer an MEC. Allegations have been submitted against that particular person, who was an MEC in Gauteng long before I became a Minister. The allegations that have been made have been given to the Special Investigating Unit and the Hawks. You are aware that even this week there was a report in the newspapers that the Hawks and the SIU are taking action. The person who has been mentioned mentioned publicly that he is actually defending the action.
The other is an MEC who is alleged to have committed these things when he was a municipal manager, and not in Health. That MEC has appeared in court several times in regard to the issue. I don’t know what that has to do with Health. If somebody who was a municipal manager is being accused of corruption in the municipality and is in court, then must the Minister of Health do something about it? I don’t know what. Maybe the hon member can guide me. That matter is in court and he has already appeared in court two or three times. It has nothing to do with the Department of Health.
Ms L MATHYS
The MINISTER OF HEALTH
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Ms L MATHYS: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Minister. That was rather emotional.
The question points to something much deeper than the particular MECs, and it was just used to highlight corruption. Now corruption is just ugly, and it is painful when it is departments that are largely responsible for the poorest of the poor people. I mean, it is like stealing bread out of someone’s mouth. So, the question has been asked in the context of that.
These departments, such as the Department of Health and the Department of Human Settlements, largely serve the poorest of the poor, and when we have corruption from our officials and our MECs, we can’t just have them moving to other parts of government to continue doing the same thing.
As a department, what are you doing to ensure that Panados are not stolen, and to ensure that we employ people and appoint them to positions where we can deliver proper services to our people? That’s what my question speaks to. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, I’m sure this is a different question altogether.
We all agree with the hon member that we all abhor corruption. It is bad, and not only for Health but for the whole country and for government. Wherever there is corruption, it is bad. That is why in these particular cases you have quoted action is being taken. It will be taken in a similar manner wherever it occurs.
That’s also why we have security systems that are trying to check the issue of corruption every day, of people stealing Panados, etc. We are actually trying something. In fact, for your information, the World Health Organisation sent Mr Mutambara. Mr Mutambara is a person whom you might recognise from politics. He was once the president of the breakaway group of the Movement for Democratic Change, MDC. That man is an engineer in robotics for your information. He was sent around African countries by the World Health Organisation to find a technical mechanism to make sure that drugs are not stolen, to see how we can trace stolen drugs.
They are doing that because for that matter the whole world is worried about this issue of theft in public health facilities. So we are following up on those issues to see what we can do.
But in the particular cases you have quoted, it so happens that the respective law enforcement agencies are already taking action and it is already in court. That’s the point I want to emphasise.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
The MINISTER OF HEALTH
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I am indebted to the hon Minister for clearing up the fact that allegations against MEC Malakoane were from when he was still a municipal manager, because this makes my follow-up question very relevant.
During the last week the MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs in the Free State indicated that Matjhabeng Municipality, where he worked, will be footing some of the bills for his private legal fees. I just want to find out whether the Minister knows to what extent the Department of Health will also help to pay his private legal fees. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, I don’t know anything about that. I would be lying if I said I did. I am hearing about this for the first time. Maybe you are talking about the department of health in the Free State, because nationally it can’t happen. If it is in the Free State, I don’t know about that. I need more details to learn about it.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 95
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 82
Question 95:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, the question is about the minimum population size to qualify for a primary health care centre and for a hospital in any specific area.
Chair and hon members, the guidelines we are using are from the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR. In their report entitled “Guidelines for the provision of social facilities in South African settlements”, this first edition of August 2012, you will find it on pages 54 to 58.
It says the minimum population size required to qualify for a primary health care centre, that is, a community health care centre, is between 60 000 and 140 000. For a primary health care clinic, the population should be between 5 000 and 70 000. For hospitals, they differ. For tertiary hospitals, the population should be 2,4 million, for regional hospitals, 1,77 million, and for district hospitals between 300 000 and 900 000. Thank you very much.
Ms B S MASANGO
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH
Ms B S MASANGO: Chair, I thank the Minister. The question comes from an experience that I heard of in a town called Bronkhorstspruit, in the Kungwini area, where a population of around 200 000 people does not have a hospital. There used to be a hospital in the past. It was a public-private partnership hospital with a private medical hospital group, but the hospital was closed. Attempts have been made to make sure that this hospital is opened again, but they have not succeeded. That is why I thought I would take this opportunity to ask the Minister how many people need to be in a community for them to qualify for a hospital.
Also, what happens is that the people have to travel from Bronkhorstspruit to Mabopane hospital, which I believe is very far. Most of these people do not have the resources to finance their journey, and they are sick. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon member, it would have done you more good if you had asked a direct question about that community, because I would have come here to give you the answer about what is happening there. The problem is that you asked a general question, and I answered it generally. Now I must go and check.
Fortunately, the area you are speaking about is part of the NHI pilot projects, where we are busy assessing the areas where clinics, etc are needed. It does not mean, as we are sitting here, that we have covered the whole country according to these numbers and formulas I’ve read here. Suffice it to say that 40% of all the health facilities that now exist in South Africa were built during the era of democracy, because we have been trying to create access, but it does not necessarily mean that we have already completed this. For instance, in the NHI pilot projects, we have calculated that we need 216 more clinics. Just in the 10 NHI pilot districts, we believe that there is a need for 216 more, in addition to those we have already built, as I said, in the past 21 years. Therefore, I will specifically go to check on the Bronkhorstspruit hospital. Thank you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, since it was not my question, I unfortunately did not have the advantage of asking specifically beforehand about a community. However, my question is similar and is about the community of Winburg in the Free State. As the Minister probably knows, it lies directly on the N1 and N5 main roads. It is not as big a community as Bronkhorstspruit. However, the fantastic hospital, which has a theatre, ICU and everything, was recently informed, without much consultation, that it was going to be converted into a clinic. The closest hospital is in Virginia, which is about 60 km or 70 km away. This, for a hospital that is ideally situated on two national roads.
I first want to find out whether the Minister is aware of this downgrading of the hospital to a clinic? If the Minister is aware thereof, what are the reasons for the downgrading? If the Minister is not aware of it, will he undertake to look into this situation please?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chair, I am not aware it, but what I do know is that in 2011 we published a Government Gazette, which members ought to be aware of, in which we redesignated the hospitals in the country. They were divided afresh, into five categories. The first category was district hospitals, then regional hospitals, then tertiary hospitals, then central hospitals, of which there are only 10, and lastly specialised hospitals.
Each province would write to the Director-General and inform him of the designations in their particular province. Then we would gazette them.
We clearly said that any facility that had fewer than 50 beds should not qualify to be a hospital. We did so because the numbers of hospitals in the provinces were so different.
For instance, if you look at the Eastern Cape, at the moment it has more hospitals than any other province in the country, by far. When we checked, we found that some of them should not qualify to be hospitals. So, we said any hospital with fewer than 50 beds should not be a hospital. You cannot, for instance, put 10 beds in a building and call it a hospital.
That is why we said they must go and discuss this with the communities so that we can align this function. However, I don’t know about this specific one you are talking about in Winburg, because I don’t how it was redesignated by the Free State province. I will go and check.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 109
The MINISTER OF HEALTH – Question 95
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Question 109:
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chairperson, I am having very serious difficulty with answering this question, because it is very wild, you know. The crisis faced by the Free State? I am not sure exactly what it refers to.
Is it the crisis of the burden of disease? For instance, we know that the Free State is one of the provinces that has a very high burden of HIV – it is number one. Is it that crisis? I have just told you that Lejweleputswa District is number one in the whole country in regard to the crisis of TB. Is it that one? Or is it the crisis of management? I also know that others had a problem with boilers which we helped to fix. But, could the member be a little bit more specific? If I just stand here and say there is a crisis of health in the Free State, I am sure you are going to have to be prepared to listen to me for two hours, because I would not know what I am talking about. Please help me in order for me to help you.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
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The MINISTER OF HEALTH
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, if I may, I would like to say the following.
Hon Minister, I am not aware of whether they supply hon Ministers with DStv, or whether you just don’t like Carte Blanche. Recently, for two Sundays in a row, they had a screening of specifically the Free State health crisis. I would hope that if a high profile programme such as that screens a programme for two hours, on one Sunday and then the next, at least the Minister would be aware of it.
To keep it brief, the crisis is mainly the state of the hospitals in general. The DA has already sent a letter to the Minister to this effect. This can be summed up as the financial crisis in the Free State, as well as the general state of the hospitals there.
There is the fact that there are no medicines in the hospitals; the fact that doctors are being suspended for blowing the whistle on these things; the fact that people have to lie for months in waiting rooms, just to get an operation; and, frequent deaths are actually occurring, due to the fact that people are not receiving proper treatment.
So, I would just like to know whether the Minister is aware of this?
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I want more clarity on this issue of screening, because I did not hear very well. Yes, there is something that alarmed me from what the member said. The Deputy President of this country, Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, launched the screening campaign on behalf of the six districts on World TB Day, 24 March, in the Dr Kenneth Kaunda District. We promised that we were going to be doing screening for the people in that district. So, if there is a shortcut somewhere, I would like to know about it. That is the first thing.
Hon Chairperson, on the other question, yes, we were aware of the financial problems in the department of health in the Free State. I sat with the Treasury to discuss them, and we sent a team there. My own CFO also went. There was a problem of infrastructure and boilers in some hospitals. So, the engineers from the national Department of Health went there to look into it, and we are still continuing to hold meetings on the issue. I have a standing agreement with the premier that whenever I get time I will go and meet him, specifically about this issue of finances. Hon members will also be aware that the department of health in the Free State was put under the financial administration of the Treasury there because of this issue. So, those are some of the steps that are being undertaken.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
The MINISTER OF HEALTH
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, it is clear from the Minister’s answer that he is not aware of the fact that people are dying because of the state of health in the Free State. Now it can be either one of the following two, and I would like the Minister to indicate which one of the two it is. It can either be because the provincial department of health is not communicating with the national Department of Health, or it could be that the current administration is reluctant to get rid of MEC Malakoane due to factionalism. Could the Minister kindly indicate which one of the two it is?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I will allow you to respond. However, the second option that you are saying the Minister must look at is really to ask the Minister to be speculative about provincial and party issues, which have nothing to do with the principal question.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, Chairperson, for defending me on this issue. The problem is that this matter has been raised many times and I have answered it, you know.
The DA has done this to me so many times. [Interjections.] The Treatment Action Campaign has also done it; I even had a meeting with the TAC. There is a belief that I must fire the MEC for health in the Free State.
It even happened yesterday. I had the World Health Organisation conference, together with the Partnership for Maternal, Newborn and Child Health, which is chaired by Mrs Graça Machel. She has been sent by the United Nations. I had a conference with them, and at the press conference the journalists asked me this question, whether I had been asked to fire the MEC for health in the Free State. I answered that no Minister in this country ever hires or fires MECs. I am sure hon members know that very well. [Interjections.] No Minister in this government has done it in the past 21 years, at least as far as I know.
But this keeps on coming. I even had a meeting with the TAC and I told them, because they were pointing fingers at me, saying that I was a coward and all that, that Ministers do not appoint MECs. We do sit with them in Minmec meetings where there are problems, and try to resolve them. I am not sure why this question keeps on being repeated, and planted in the media time and time again.
On the issue of deaths, Chairperson, we have mechanisms in this country which we use to check these things. For instance, if it is the death of mothers, we have a committee chaired by Prof Jack Moodley, which is called the National Committee on Confidential Enquiries into Maternal Deaths in South Africa. We sit with them, and in our last Minmec meeting they came and gave us a thorough report. If it is about infant deaths – I mean the deaths of children below five years - we have a committee chaired by Prof Neil McKerrow. So, we have all these committees that check.
Then we also check the statistics, what we call the District Health Barometer. We check to see in which districts there are problems. Statistics SA also gives us figures, as you will know.
We check the Department of Home Affairs deaths register, so as to see in exactly what areas there are problems. We are not just sitting here as sitting ducks; we do check what is actually going on.
I would like the hon member, if he is claiming that people are dying somewhere in a way that is abnormal, please to give us the figures and the information, so that it is not general again, please. Perhaps we might be able to answer you and say, yes, it is true that this and that happened, or that there was an outbreak of this and that, or there was a problem here and there. Then we will be able to answer you. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Michalakis, you have had three supplementary questions already. You are allowed one supplementary question, but because I did not see hands from the other members, I allowed it.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: The first part was the Minister requesting that I provide clarity, which I provided. I have only asked one supplementary question. So, if all the other members are done and you would indulge me, then I would like another ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any other member who has a supplementary question? The last bite, hon member.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: I am indebted to you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, I accept your answer. I would then enquire whether the Minister would be willing to at least investigate the allegations and, if he finds that there is merit in them, whether he would consider – I agree that he cannot hire and fire an MEC – a section 100 intervention. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Chair, the Free State was put under section 100(1)(a) at the time Limpopo was put under section 100(1)(b), and both the Free State and Gauteng were put under section 100(1)(a). If it becomes necessary to put any province under section 100(1)(b), we will do so without any waste of time, as we did with Limpopo. So, we will look into that possibility, if it becomes necessary.
I know that they were under section 100(1)(a) on the advice of the Treasury, after the team went there. The province itself put the department of health under their provincial administration. I forget the name of the section in that case, but there is a section which they use.
If we need to use section 100(1)(b), we will give reasons and go to the Cabinet. Then we will come here to the NCOP, and they will allow us to do so.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That, hon Minister of Health, is the conclusion of all six questions which were put to you. You are released.
Hon members, I have been receiving requests to consider a break, or else being open to your suggestions.
The problem is that the Rules of the NCOP are very clear on the time allocated to questions, the number of questions per Minister, how long they can respond, and how long a supplementary question can be. What our Rules are silent on is the total time allocated for questions per sitting; we do not have that.
In the absence of that, it means I am at your mercy. It is the House that can decide whether we continue on not. As the Rules stand, we are supposed to slog on until we have finished. So, I can advise that we take a body break and come back, or slog on, unless the House makes a different suggestion, very formally in the House. I do not have the power to adjourn Question Time. I see the hon Mthimunye. I will recognise you in due course, hon Mathys.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Chair, I have taken on the responsibility of going out and consulting with the leaders of the opposition parties. We have also consulted with the Ministers, who have time pressures. We have agreed in principle that we can propose to the Chair and the House that we adjourn the proceedings until a future date, to be determined. This can be confirmed and communicated to the Ministers, in order for us to finish the business of this cluster.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys, your hand was up?
Ms L MATHYS: Hon Chair, I am in the opposition party and we have not been consulted. The UDM and the IFP are not here, so I am not sure which opposition parties have been consulted. My suggestion is that we slog along. We have only been here for three and half hours, and I am sure we can do another two hours. [Interjections.] We are fighters you know. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please! [Interjections.]
Ms L MATHYS: Thank you. That was my suggestion.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Mthimunye, the Acting Chief Whip, says he has consulted, but the hon Mathys says the EFF has not been consulted. Mr Rayi, were you consulted?
Mr M RAYI: No.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Mthimunye, it seems you did not do proper consultation. Hon Michalakis, are you speaking on this matter?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I have a point that I would like to raise. I think it is the appropriate time now, if ever, but please stop me if it is irrelevant. It was indicated to us right at the beginning that the hon Minister of Human Settlements would not be able to come here today, due to the fact that she had her debate. I just think that it is appropriate to bring it to your attention as well that the hon Minister’s debate already ended at four o’clock and that she was aware of this. I just think it is perhaps inappropriate that she is not in the House to answer questions today.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Dlamini.
Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chair, she has another commitment after the debate. We as a committee do have it in writing.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. The matter was brought to our attention.
Can I just take you back to the decision on whether we are proceeding or not. I do not want to put that decision to a vote, because our Rules are very vague. If the Members of this House are saying there is unanimity on the issue, I will consider it, but if there is no unanimity on this matter, I will not.
Mr A J NYAMBI: Chair, I propose that, to be more procedural and not to end up violating some of the Rules, we go to a break, allow our Acting Chief Whip to do the consultation, and come back to deal with it, so that we can do justice to the process.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is a suggestion. Hon Labuschagne.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, when I put up my hand I wanted to say something else, but I will support the proposal that the hon Nyambi has made, based on the fact that I was consulted. The choices that were put before us were that we should continue on another day and at another time, for various reasons, but I am sure that we can discuss that during the break and in the consultations ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I am going to adjourn the House for 10 minutes so that those who need to walk around, and those who need to consult and be consulted, can do so. This House is adjourned and will be reconvened in the next 10 minutes.
Business suspended at 17:34 and resumed at 17:44.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please be seated. Hon members, have you all been consulted and, if you have, what is the conclusion? Hon Acting Chief Whip?
The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S G Mthimunye): The consensus is that we agree as parties, with the exception of the EFF, who would like to record their objection. That is the information.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The objection of the EFF is noted. Hon Ministers, we do hope that you were also consulted. The request therefore is that we postpone the remaining questions, for them to be prioritised for the next sitting, the date of which shall be canvassed with the Ministers thoroughly because, in this particular instance, they are not the cause of the postponement. Shall we agree that we therefore adjourn this House and postpone the questions to the date which shall be determined and communicated to all members?
HON MEMBERS: [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If that is the case, this concludes the suspended business of today. You are requested to remain seated until we have left the House. The House is adjourned.
The Council adjourned at 17:46.
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