Hansard: NCOP: Plenary: Motions; Reports; Legislation; Debate on traditional leadership in South Africa

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 24 Feb 2015

Summary

No summary available.

Minutes

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UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

24 FEBRUARY 2015

PAGE: 1

START OF DAY

TUESDAY, 24 FEBRUARY 2015

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

The Council met at 14:00.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

NOTICES OF MOTION

Start of Day

NOTICES OF MOTION

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council‑

notes with profound sadness and utmost grief the death of Ntate Letsau Nelson Diale, who was one of the few remaining stalwarts of our movement, who passed away on 8 January 2015 at the age of 79;

further notes that Ntate Diale, who was born in GaMasemola in Sekhukhuneland in the Limpopo province on 1 January 1936 served the liberation movement and the people of South Africa with profound dedication until his untimely death;

further notes that Ntate Diale, whose life was characterised by persistent harassment, violence and imprisonment by the apartheid regime, joined Parliament in 1994 as a member of the then Senate, which later became the National Council of Provinces and then moved to the National Assembly where he served with profound distinction until his retirement last year; and

takes this opportunity to honour this great stalwart of our liberation movement and convey its profound condolences to his family, the ANC, SACP and the community of GaMasemola as well as the Limpopo province in general, who lost a father, grandfather, a selfless community leader and moral compass.

[Time expired.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Madam.

Hon members, notices of motion are supposed to be 90 seconds long. Please try and confine yourselves to the allocated time. I really tried with the Chief Whip because it is a motion of condolence, but I really do not want to be put in that situation.

Mr M RAYI

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Mr M RAYI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council‑

notes with utmost concern the accident that happened at Kusasalethu mine near Carletonville where 486 workers were trapped underground when a fire started on the mine’s 75th level - approximately 2 300 metres below surface;

further notes that although the workers were rescued by Sunday afternoon without any injuries, this incident raises concerns about the safety in our mines; and

takes this opportunity to move that at the next sitting of the Council, the House debates safety in our mines.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN

Mr M RAYI

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council‑

debates the road infrastructure expenditure in the Eastern Cape and in all other provinces as soon as possible;

further notes that, as per the current financial year, the management, upkeep and repair of the provincial roads in the Eastern Cape are not always addressed, especially in the rural areas where roads are neglected and in poor condition;

also notes that tenders for provincial road maintenance were only allocated as late as the end of November 2014;

also notes that the SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, expenditure per each national and provincial surfaced road must be disclosed and a progress report must be submitted.

finally notes that the Eastern Cape department of roads and transport has not provided full information on the expenditure of this department to date on:

gravel roads maintenance;
surfaced roads maintenance;
capital funding appropriated to Strategic Integrated Projects (SIP) dedicated to the Eastern Cape; and
funds paid to implementing agencies and consultants.

I so move. Thank you.

Ms L L ZWANE

Ms E C VAN LINGEN

Ms L L ZWANE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council‑

notes with utmost concern reports that former football star and Bafana Bafana player John ‘Shoes’ Moshoeu is gravely ill and fighting for his life in a Johannesburg hospital;

further notes that John ‘Shoes’ Moshoeu who played for South African national giants like Kaizer Chiefs and in the Turkish league for Fenerbahce and Bursaspor from 1997 until his return to South Africa in 2003 has been going from one private hospital to another until his medical aid was exhausted; and

takes this opportunity to wish Moshoeu a speedy recovery and appeals to the soccer fraternity, business community and the South African community at large to rise to the call of letsema and lend a helping hand to Moshoeu and keep him in their prayers.

I so move.

Mr F ESSACK

Ms L L ZWANE

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council‑

notes that for the last four consecutive years now, the Thaba Chweu Municipality in Mpumalanga has received a disclaimer report from the Auditor-General;

further notes that a total of 100% of the reported objectives, indicators and targets were not consistent with those in the approved integrated development plan;

also notes that this is due to the management of this municipality not adhering to the Framework for Managing Programme Performance Information, FMPPI, because of a lack of proper processes and systems;

also notes the municipality’s fruitless and wasteful expenditure of R19 million has again been identified during this last audit process, resulting in further irregular expenditure amounting to a total of R150 572 00;

further notes that the municipality now owes Eskom a staggering R256 million in arrears; and

finally notes that it is quite clear that this municipality is in major distress and should be placed under section 139(b).

I so move.

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA

Mr F ESSACK

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council‑

notes the alarmingly increaseing the levels of drug and substance abuse in South Africa, especially among youth and children ;
further notes that the impact it has on young people, their families and communities is devastatingly unacceptable;

also notes that the government must commit to a multidisciplinary decisive programme to deal with drug and substance abuse to save the society from collapsing; and

finally notes that this situation must receive urgent and prioritised attention to ensure that our social and moral fibre is not completely eroded.

I so move.

Mr D L XIMBI

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA

Mr D L XIMBI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council‑

notes with utter contempt the number of cases involving the rape of young girls and children in South Africa;

further notes that a report compiled by Solidarity Helping Hand said that while there were about 60 cases of child rape reported in South Africa every day, more than 88% of child rape cases were never reported;

takes this opportunity to move that at the next sitting of the Council the House debates the incidence of rape and sexual violence against young girls and young children in our society; and

further appeals to authorities to wage a concerted fight against sexual violence and rape in our communities.

I so move.

Mr M KHAWULA

Mr D L XIMBI

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the Council debates the blatant lack of accountability of the former owners of the Aurora mine and the continued struggle by former miners, some of whom live in abject poverty, to get their salaries paid.

I thank you.

Mr H B GROENEWALD

Mr M KHAWULA

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting, I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council‑

notes that the state provides public as well as social housing to the lower income groups in South Africa;

further notes that since 1994 many of these state properties were not taken up into the state inventory and that caused the crisis regarding legal ownership of property or land; and

also notes that the DA demands strict restrictions on the completion of the state inventory, combined with a democratically planned explanation of public housing.

Only then can we begin to address the root of the crisis.

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NOTICES OF MOTION

REPATRIATION OF REMAINS OF STRUGGLE HEROES

(Draft Resolution)

IsiXhosa:

Mnu L SUKA: Enkosi Mhlalingaphambili wale Ndlu yoWiso-mthetho.

English:

I hereby move without notice:

That the Council-

notes, welcomes and applauds the move by the Minister of Arts and Culture, hon member Nathi Mthethwa, in arranging and facilitating the repatriation of the remains of our struggle heroes, Comrades J B Marks and Moses Kotane, from Russia to their land of birth, South Africa;

further notes that these leaders of our struggle for freedom and democracy form part of our nation’s history; hence our President saw it fit for our government to take that decision;

further notes that the political activist and trade unionist Comrade J B Marks served as president of the Transvaal Branch of the ANC, became the chairperson of the SA Communist Party in 1962, and was sent to the ANC external mission in Tanzania in 1963, and went to the then Soviet Union where he died of a heart attack in Moscow in 1972;

further notes that Comrade Moses Kotane was the secretary-general of the SA Communist Party from 1939 until his death in 1978.

also notes that he was selected to study at the International Lenin School in Moscow and became one of the first activists to be banned under the Suppression of Communism Act;

also notes that he suffered a stroke in 1968 and went for treatment in the then Soviet Union where he died in 1978; and

commends the efforts informed by reconciliation and the need to work together to tell the story of where we come from and celebrate our heroes.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr K BOTHA

Mr L SUKA

CALL FOR DEBATE ON SECTION 26 OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT: MUNICIPAL DEMARCATION ACT

(Draft Resolution)

Mr K BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the Council-

notes that the DA calls for a debate on section 26 of the Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act as it applies to the municipal boundary changes;

further notes that the debate must considers the following:
1. assistance provided by the member of the executive council, MECs, for Local Government And Traditional Affairs in the provinces;
2. the co-operation of municipalities in this regard;
3. the role of the Auditor-General in alerting the municipalities;
4. the role of the SA Local Government Association, Salga, in supporting local councillors;
5. the National Treasury’s role;
6. the effectiveness of legislation; and
7. the financial dysfunctionality, maladministration and service delivery of municipalities considered for demarcation; and

calls on the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to submit the reports on each of the affected, namely dysfunctional, municipalities that are currently under review for demarcation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THENCOP: Dankie meneer. [Thank you, sir.] Mme Motara.

Apologies, hon members and hon Londt, is there anybody against the motion as put forward by the hon Botha? Is there anybody against it? [Interjections.] There’s an objection.

The motion then becomes notice of a motion. Hon Motara.

Ms T MOTARA

Mr K BOTHA

REMEMBERING BHEKI MLANGENI

(Draft Resolution)

Ms T MOTARA: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council-

notes that last Tuesday, 16 February, marked 24 years since the brutal and senseless killing of ANC human rights lawyer, Bheki Mlangeni, who was maimed by apartheid forces in 1991, at the age of 35 through a parcel bomb that was packaged as a tape player;

further notes that Bheki Mlangeni worked with former police captain, Dirk Coetzee, to expose the existence of a secret police unit based at Vlakplaas which carried out assassinations of antiapartheid activists;

congratulates Gauteng Premier, hon David Makhura, who mentioned in his state of the province address yesterday that three of the hospitals in Gauteng will be renamed to honour some of our outstanding martyrs who sacrificed their lives for our freedom;
notes that Zola-Jabulani Hospital will be named after the late Bheki Mlangeni; the Natalspruit Hospital will be named after the late Thelle Mogoerane, and the Far East Rand Hospital will be named after the late Mme Ruth First; and

takes this opportunity to remember and pay homage to this great warrior of our liberation movement.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms M C DIKGALE

Ms T MOTARA

STABILITY PREVAILS IN MALAMULELE

(Draft Resolution)

Ms M C DIKGALE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council-

notes with appreciation the stability that is beginning to prevail in Malamulele after the unrest that has been taking place for weeks;

further notes that the strike that stemmed from the demand by the residents of the area for their municipality has been suspended after engagements with the stakeholders through the interventions by some government departments, such as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, led by Minister Pravin Gordhan;

further notes that the riot brought about not only the torching and closure of schools and other public facilities, but it further caused closure of shops, the transport industry and other important services to the people; and

takes this opportunity to welcome and commend these interventions by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs whereby R500 million in the current budget is set aside to finance a package of services intended for the Vhembe District, and Malamulele area in particular.

I so move.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THENCOP: Ke a leboga, Mme [Thank you, Madam.] Is there anybody who has an issue? Ntate Smit, on this motion? Are you objecting? The motion has been objected to.

Ntate Smit, you are the next one, and you are protected.

Mr C F B SMIT

Ms M C DIKGALE

MINISTER PRAVIN GORDHAN SIGNS MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING

(Draft Resolution)

Mr C F B SMIT: I am experiencing déjà vu now.

Hon Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the House-

notes that Minister Pravin Gordhan signed a memorandum of understanding with all the relevant parties involved in the Malamulele unrest;

further notes that this agreement included the so-called six-month peace agreement; and

requires Minister Pravin Gordhan to table this memorandum of understanding within 14 days in this House.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THENCOP: Thank you, sir. [Interjections.]

Order, members! Is there anybody who objects? Both motions which were very different, hon members, are objected to. Mr F ESSACK

Mr C F B SMIT

HOMELESS FAMILIES IN MPUMALANGA

(Draft Resolution)

Mr F ESSACK: Hon Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That this Council-

notes that at least 350 families in Mpumalanga do not have a roof over their heads and a place to call home;

further notes that this is due to the provincial department of human settlements underspending its budget by over R30 million;

also notes that there continues to be massive underspending in this department which has hindered the delivery of housing to many people in Mpumalanga;

also notes that, according to the Appropriation Bill, the department’s budget is expected to increase from R1,380 billion to R1,766 billion in the next financial year;

further notes that it is extremely concerning that this department is currently failing to spend the budget it has been allocated;

also notes that it is quite clear that only the strongest political leadership will guide this department to provide for the current needs of the underprivileged families in Mpumalanga;

further notes that the DA will keep placing pressure on MEC Violet Siwela to ensure that the department is spending all the funds allocated to it; and

finally notes that the residents of Mpumalanga need this department to succeed.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms L C DLAMINI

Mr F ESSACK

DEMONSTRATION BY SOUTH AFRICAN MEDICAL RESEARCH COUNCIL IN FIGHT AGAINST CANCER

(Draft Resolution)

Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council-

notes, welcomes and applauds the move by the SA Medical Research Council in the fight against cancer in South Africa;

further notes that the SA Medical Research Council, SAMRC, is giving three universities R37 million for research towards fighting cancer, enabling the University of Cape Town to focus on gynaecological cancers, including those of the cervix, uterus and ovaries;

also notes the University of the Witwatersrand will concentrate on cancer of the breast, colon and pancreas, and the University of KwaZulu-Natal on cancer of the oesophagus, gallbladder and liver; and

takes this opportunity to welcome this funding as one of the strategic interventions that South Africa is making to ensure accurate cancer surveillance, better and quicker diagnosis and access to treatment.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr W F FABER

Ms L C DLAMINI

NEGATIVE IMPACT OF E-TOLLS

(Draft Resolution)

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the Council-

notes that the Gauteng Premier, David Makhura, promised major financial relief to motorists in his state of the province address on Monday;

further notes that the provincial government is part of the current consultation process to develop a better dispensation which will mitigate the negative impact of the e-tolls on the people of Gauteng, especially the middle and the lower-income groups;

also notes that the provincial government was part of a consultation process led by Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa;

also notes that the panel found that in its current form the e-toll system was unaffordable, inequitable and placed a disproportionate burden on low and middle-income households;

further notes that the e-toll system needs to be reviewed to address mainly affordability for low and middle-income motorists and advance administrative simplicity;

also notes that it is clear that the ANC itself can’t find an answer for this monster that they have created between themselves; and

also notes that the DA hopes that this consultation process will be opened for public participation, so that all South Africans can give input and a viable solution can be found.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THENCOP: Thank you, sir. Is there any member against this motion? There’s an objection.

Mr O SEFAKO

Mr W F FABER

REMEMBERING RAYMOND MHLABA

(Draft Resolution)

Mr O SEFAKO: Hon Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council-

notes that 20 February marked 10 years since the death of Comrade Raymond Mhlaba, who was an antiapartheid activist and a fearless leader of the ANC and the SA Communist Party;

further notes that Oom Ray, as he was affectionately known, spent 25 years - the prime of his life - in prison after he was sentenced, along with Comrade Nelson Mandela, in the Rivonia Trial;

further notes that Oom Ray, who was born in Mazoka Village in the Fort Beaufort district, was also one of the ANC leaders arrested during the transport boycott of 1952, when he led a group of volunteers into the ``Europeans only’’ entrance of the New Brighton Police Station in Port Elizabeth.

Further notes that he served on various structures of the ANC, SACP and uMkhonto weSizwe until his untimely death ...

[Time expired.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon member. Is there anyone against this motion? No.

It has been agreed to. Please submit the whole motion.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING

MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Mr O SEFAKO

PASSING AWAY OF MR J MOORCROFT

(Draft Resolution)

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council–

notes with sadness the passing away of Mr Jaco Moorcroft, a teacher at Dr Havenga Primary School in Roodepoort;
further notes that Mr Moorcroft, who passed away at the age of 48, was one of those teachers that the nation desperately needs, that is, a Mathematics and Technology teacher;
further notes that Mr Moorcroft collapsed on Monday, 16 February, from a heart attack, in front of learners whilst he was teaching;
further notes that in Mr Moorcroft the nation has lost a patriot who did not only prepare the kids of the nation for the future, but whose life came to an end whilst on national duty; and
takes this opportunity to convey its profound condolences to his family and friends.

I so move.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms G M MANOPOLE

Mr T C MOTLASHUPING

PASSING AWAY OF FRANK SEXWALE

(Draft Resolution)

Ms G M MANOPOLE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council–

notes with profound sadness the death of ANC veteran Ntate Frank Sexwale who departed at the age of 97 years;
further notes that Ntate Frank Sexwale, who was also the father to former ANC National Executive Council, NEC, member, Comrade Tokyo Sexwale, is counted amongst the senior veterans of our people’s struggle as led by the ANC and one of the few living South Africans who fought in the Second World War;
acknowledges that the departure of Comrade Frank Sexwale represents an immensely sad moment as he remains one of the many compatriots who were prepared to pay the highest price for the liberation of South Africa; and
takes this opportunity to express its profound condolences to the Sexwale family, especially his wife, Mme Sexwale and his son Tokyo Sexwale; and
hopes that they will find solace in the fact that he dedicated his life to the liberation of ourcountry.

I so move.

Motion accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms T J MOKWELE

Ms G M MANOPOLE

BRUTAL ASSAULT ON EFF MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT IN NATIONAL ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

(Draft Resolution)

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the EFF:

That the Council–

notes that EFF Member of the National Assembly, on Reneiloe Mashabela, was hospitalised following a broken jaw and a broken cheek bone;
further notes that hon Reneiloe Mashabela and the rest of the EFF Members of Parliament were indiscriminately assaulted by security forces on 12 February on the instruction of the Speaker and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces;
acknowledges that hon Reneiloe Mashabela did not speak on the fateful day and was not asked to leave the House, but was assaulted illegally, and forcefully taken out of the House;
further notes that there was no threat to anyone’s life when the Speaker ordered the police to enter the House;
remembers that in 1998, hon Johnny de Lange, an ANC Member of Parliament, physically assaulted hon Manie Schoeman, the then National Party Member of Parliament, and the House degenerated into violence, but the police were never called into the House;
condemns the illegal instruction to the police by the Speaker of Parliament; and
further condemns the assault on democratically elected Members of Parliament, especially women.

I so move.

There being an objection to the motion without notice, the motion without notice becomes notice of a motion.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Not agreed to.

Hon members, that was the last speaker for motions without notice.

The Council joins the members moving the motions of condolences in wishing all the respective families who have lost loved one solace.

Mr M RAYI:

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MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND MINERAL RESOURCES - AGREEMENT ON PORT STATE MEASURES TO PREVENT, DETER, AND ELIMINATE ILLEGAL, UNREPORTED AND UNREGULATED FISHING WITH EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND MINERAL RESOURCES - CONVENTION FOR THE CONSERVATION OF SOUTHERN BLUEFIN TUNA (CCSBT) WITH EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND MINERAL RESOURCES - AGREEMENT FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE INDIAN OCEAN TUNA COMMISSION (IOTC) WITH EXPLANATORY MEMORANDUM

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND MINERAL RESOURCES - ACCEPTANCE OF THE DOHA AMENDMENT TO THE KYOTO PROTOCOL TO THE UNITED NATIONS FRAMEWORK CONVENTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE

Mr M RAYI: Hon Chairperson, hon Chief Whip, hon Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, hon members and special delegates from our provinces, the leadership of Salga, and our guests in the gallery, good afternoon. Let me first welcome our committee chairperson who should have been presenting the report. He had been booked off sick for quite a long time but he is now back here with us. So, I am tabling the report of the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources on his behalf because these decisions were taken in his absence.

The Indian Ocean Tuna Commission, IOTC, and the Convention for the Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna, CCSBT, are intergovernmental regional fisheries management organisations, RFMOs, mandated to manage tuna and tuna-like species. While IOTC manages a vast range of tuna and tuna-like species in the Indian Ocean, the CCSBT is solely responsible for the management of southern bluefin tuna, SBT.

The RFMOs’ objectives are to promote co-operation among its members with a view to ensuring the conservation of the optimum utilisation of stocks and encourage the sustainable development of fisheries. These RFMOs conduct stock assessments, determine and adopt conservation and management measures, determine a total allowance catch, and issue coastal countries with licenses for these high seas fisheries resources.

South Africa is a co-operating noncontracting party to IOTC and CCSBT, and has not yet acceded to the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation’s Port State Measures agreement. As a co-operating and noncontracting party, South Africa is obligated to adhere to all management and conservation measures of the IOTC and CCSBT, including data reporting as required by all member parties.

Furthermore, South Africa has to apply for this status to be renewed each year. The renewal of South Africa’s status is determined by the member parties through scrutinising South Africa’s performance with regard to the implementation of the IOTC’s management and conservation measures. These factors create great uncertainty in securing long-term access for our vessels to fish for tuna and tuna-like species.

Tuna longline fishery has the potential to become the third most economically important fishery in South Africa after the hake and small pelagic fisheries. The full membership of the tuna RFMOs can make the difference between a R150 million industry and a R1,2 billion industry in foreign currency. There is also the greatest potential to provide new jobs in the fishing sector in the short term.

The Agreement on Port State Measures to Prevent, Deter and Eliminate Illegal Unreported and Unregulated Fishing aims to prevent illegally caught fish from entering international markets through ports. Once this Food and Agricultural Organisation’s, Fao’s, brokered treaty enters into force, it will deny access to fishing ports for ships involved in illegal fishing.

South Africa’s accession to the IOTC and CCSBT regional fisheries management organisation is long outstanding. There is urgency for South Africa to accede to these agreements and develop her national fisheries. By acceding to these IOTC and CCSBT agreements, the government will create a more secure environment for the development of tuna longline fishery, thereby increasing South Africa’s revenue.

In the case of the CCSBT in particular, South Africa will be granted an increase in its southern bluefin tuna allocation upon accession. This would also promote the creation of new jobs and would contribute to uplifting the quality of existing employment in this sector. Full membership of the IOTC and CCSBT will allow South Africa to table its concern and to influence the decisions taken at these RFMOs pertaining to the management of the lucrative and valuable tuna and tuna-like resources.

There is a linkage between RFMOs and the global fight against illegal unreported unregulated fisheries. The illegal unreported unregulated fisheries are a global threat to sustainable fisheries, the management of fisheries, and the conservation of fishery resources and marine biodiversity.

Let me quickly go through the points because I see that I am running out of time. The committee, therefore, is recommending that the NCOP approves South Africa’s accession to the agreement for the establishment of the Indian Ocean Tuna Commission; approves accession to the Convention for the Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna; and approves the Food and Agriculture Organisation’s Port State Measures Agreement to Prevent, Deter and Eliminate Illegal, Unreported and Unregulated Fishing.

The Kyoto Protocol to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change is an international treaty that creates a binding obligation on industrialised countries to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. South Africa is a party to the convention and the protocol. Under the Kyoto Protocol, the developed country parties have agreed to a legally binding reduction of their greenhouse gas emissions during the commitment period.

The first commitment period came to an end in 2012, and the second commitment period applies to emission reduction for the period 2013-2020. The protocol was amended in 2012 to provide for the second commitment period by the adoption of the Doha amendment to the Kyoto Protocol. The meeting of parties to the Kyoto Protocol adopted the Doha amendment to the Kyoto Protocol by decisions of the conference for member parties at its eighth session in Doha, Qatar, in December 2012.

In order for Doha amendments to enter into force, the instruments of acceptance need to be submitted by parties. Therefore, with regard to the recommendation, the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources recommends that the NCOP support the Doha amendments. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THENCOP: That concludes the report and the debate on the First, Second, Third and Fourth Orders. I therefore want to put the question on each Order.

Question put: That the Report on Agreement on Port State Measures to Prevent, Deter, and Eliminate Illegal, Unreported and Unregulated Fishing with Explanatory Memorandum be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report on Agreement on Port State Measures to Prevent, Deter, and Eliminate Illegal, Unreported and Unregulated Fishing with Explanatory Memorandum accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Report on Convention for the Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna (CCSBT) with Explanatory Memorandum be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report on Convention for the Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna (CCSBT) with Explanatory Memorandum accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Report on Agreement for the Establishment of the Indian Ocean Tuna Commission (IOTC) with Explanatory Memorandum be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report on Agreement for the Establishment of the Indian Ocean Tuna Commission, IOTC, with Explanatory Memorandum accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Report on Acceptance of the DOHA Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report on Acceptance of the DOHA Amendment to the Kyoto Protocol to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

FIFTH ORDER

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CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND MINERAL RESOURCES - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO ENTITIES OF THE DEPARTMENTS OF MINERAL RESOURCES AND AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES

Mr M RAYI: Chairperson, I have already greeted everybody earlier. We are now tabling the report of the select committee.

The Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources, having conducted oversight on the Council for Geosciences, the Agriculture Research Council, ARC, and Onderstepoort Biological Products, OBP, from 21 to 22 October 2014, reports as follows:

During the NCOP strategic planning session held in 2014, it was decided that the committee would ensure that it visited state-owned entities that fall under the department overseen by the committee. The committee therefore used the period for the activities associated with the Select Committee on Land and Mineral Resources for this oversight purpose. The entities visited included the Council for Geosciences, the Agricultural Research Council, ARC, and Onderstepoort Biological Products, OBP, which are all located in and around Pretoria.

The objective of the oversight visit was to allow members to engage with the entities identified as well as to familiarise themselves with the role that these entities play with regard to matters identified by the committee members for future oversight as set out in the strategic plan. This trip was also meant to be part of the induction programme for the committee as all committee members were new to the portfolio. The entities visited presented various challenges and constraints with regard to funding models and statutory mandates that they need to fulfil within the allocated budget.

An alarming trend that emerged was that the budgets were being reduced, but the mandates of the entities remained the same or were increased. The main constraints were inadequate statutory funding, staff retention in these scarce skills as well as aging infrastructure and equipment for these specialised services.

The committee therefore tables the following recommendations for the Council to consider: That the Department of Mineral Resources provides the funding models used to determine the transfer made to the Council for Geosciences to implement their mandate. The Council for Geosciences needs to provide the committee with a report on the budget allocated for research and legislative or statutory requirements and the implications if the budget allocations are inadequate. The Council for Geosciences must indicate what research support is currently being provided as input into the debates regarding acid mine drainage and the exploration of shale gas for energy security.

With regard to recommendations on the ARC, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries must provide details of funding models used to provide transfers to the ARC. A feasibility study on the use of the Agricultural Research Council as a service provider for the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform project must be conducted. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries must conduct an assessment on the funding provided for the ARC to implement its mandate. The impact the ARC is having on the smallholder sector must be assessed, and the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries must facilitate collaboration with the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries must report on why the foot and mouth vaccine production is given to the ARC, which does not have vaccine production facilities whilst Onderstepoort Biological Products is a vaccine production facility.

In terms of recommendations on Onderstepoort Biological Products, the committee agreed that the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries should provide details of the funding model used to provide transfers to the Onderstepoort Biological Products. A feasibility study on the use of Onderstepoort Biological Products, OBP, as a service provider to the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and all the provincial departments of agriculture should be conducted to assess the potential of OBP in securing a market share of the state procured vaccines. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries needs to report to the committee on the development, including budget, of the new premises for the OBP to achieve a good manufacturing practice status. Thank you.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Mr D L XIMBI:

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FIFTH ORDER – Consideration of Report of Select Committee on land...

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND JUSTICE -DRAFT NOTICE AND SCHEDULE SUBMITTED IN TERMS OF SECTION 2(3)(B) OF THE JUDGES REMUNERATION AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT ACT, ACT NO 47 OF 2001, DETERMINING THE RATE AT WHICH SALARIES ARE PAYABLE TO CONSTITUTIONAL COURT JUDGES AND JUDGES ANNUALLY

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND JUSTICE - DRAFT NOTICE AND SCHEDULE IN TERMS OF SECTION 12(3) OF THE MAGISTRATES ACT, ACT NO 90 OF 1993, DETERMINING THE RATE AT WHICH SALARIES ARE PAYABLE TO MAGISTRATES ANNUALLY

Mr D L XIMBI: Chairperson, in terms of section 2(1)(a) of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act of 2001, Constitutional Court judges and judges are entitled to an annual salary and such allowances or benefits as determined by the President, from time to time, by notice in the Gazette and approved by Parliament in terms of section 2(4) of the Act.

For this year, the final recommendation was 6% increase in respect of judicial officers earning less than R1 million, and 5% in respect of judicial officers earning more than R1 million.

The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, Act 47 of 2001, determined by the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually with effect from 1 April 2014 referred to it, recommends that the Council approves the Draft Notice and Schedule. Thank you, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir. Hon members...

Mr D L XIMBI: Can you allow me to proceed?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: But you said ``thank you’’.

Mr D L XIMBI: Yes, yes, [Laughter.]

Chairperson, in respect of the second report on the determination of remuneration of magistrates in terms of section 12(1)(a) of the Magistrates Act, Act 90 of 1993,section 12(1)(a) of the Magistrates Act, Act 90 of 1993, spells out the procedures for determining the salaries of magistrates. Magistrates are entitled to such salaries, allowances or benefits, as determined by the President from time to time by notice in the Gazette, after taking into consideration the recommendations of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers established under section 2 of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act, Act 92 of 1997; and approved by the President in terms of subsection (3).

Section 12(3)(a) provides for such a notice as contemplated in section 12(1)(a) ``A notice issued under subsection (1)(a) must be submitted to Parliament for approval before publication thereof.’’

On 18 February 2015, the Select Committee on Security and Justice received a briefing from the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development in relation to the proposed increases in the salaries of magistrates and judges respectively, as set out in a Draft Notice by the President that had to be approved by both Houses of Parliament. For this financial year, the final recommendation was that both magistrates and judges should effectively receive a 6% increase in respect of judicial officers earning less than R1 million, and 5% in respect of judicial officers earning more than R1 million.

The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development further informed the select committee that a review of comprehensive benefits for magistrates would be undertaken. The Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the Draft Notice and Schedule in terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, Act 90 of 1993, determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually with effect from 1 April 2014 referred to it, recommends that the Council approves the Draft Notice and Schedule. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report on Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(3)(b) of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, Act No 47 of 2001, determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report on Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(3)(b) of the Judges Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, Act No 47 of 2001, determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Report on Draft Notice and Schedule in terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, Act No 90 of 1993, determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report on Draft Notice and Schedule in terms of section 12(3) of the Magistrates Act, Act No 90 of 1993, determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

””””””DEBATE ON TRADITIONAL LEADERSHIP IN SOUTH AFRICA: WORKING TOGETHER TO ENSURE SYNERGY AND CO-OPERATION BETWEEN LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND TRADITIONAL LEADERSHIP FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF OUR PEOPLE

(Subject for Discussion)

Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP and hon Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, on behalf of the IFP I wish to start by expressing our, and my leader's, sincere gratitude to the hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Thandi Modise, for agreeing to this very important topic being put on the NCOP agenda after our caucus request to her office.

Traditional leaders were there during the precolonial era, the colonial era and the postcolonial era. They have always been there to defend their land, their livestock and their communities. The traditional leaders of our country were actually the first freedom fighters. I can refer to the likes of King Hintsa, Queen Mantantise, King Sekhukhune, King Shaka, King Cetshwayo, and many others. Therefore, the institution of Ubukhosi is inherent in us; it is important to our communities and is of historical value and significance to South Africa.

The issue of traditional leaders in decision-making structures of governance in the country cannot merely be reduced to the debate about salaries and benefits. It is about much more than that. Chapter 12 of the Constitution of South Africa of 1996 stipulates and specifically acknowledges the institution of traditional leaders, its role and its place in the system of democratic governance. This chapter provides for the continued authority and functioning of traditional leaders in accordance with traditional law within the broader legal framework, and for traditional leaders to participate at local government level.

Several laws have been passed since 1994 which acknowledge the importance of traditional leaders. We can mention the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act; the Communal Land Rights Act, Clara, which had been enacted to deal, inter alia, with land rights on traditional leaders and was declared unconstitutional on procedural grounds in May 2010. A replacement Act has never been considered since then. There is the national framework of traditional leadership Act; and the Traditional Courts Bill, which was withdrawn along the way.

The role of traditional leaders is mentioned in section 81 of our Constitution, and it states:

Traditional authorities that traditionally observe a system of customary law in the area of a municipality may participate through their leaders, identified in terms of subsection (2), in the proceedings of the council of that municipality, and those traditional leaders must be allowed to attend and participate in any meeting of the council.

The MEC for local government in a province, in accordance with schedule 6 and by notice in the Provincial Gazette, must identify the traditional leaders who in terms of subsection (1) may participate in the proceedings of a municipal council.

The number of traditional leaders that may participate in the proceedings of a municipal council may not exceed 20% of the total number of councillors in that council, but if the council has fewer than 10 councillors, only one traditional leader may participate.

If the number of traditional leaders identified in a municipality's area of jurisdiction exceed 20% of the total number of councillors, the MEC for local government in the province may determine a system for the rotation of those traditional leaders.

Before a municipal council takes a decision on any matter directly affecting the area of a traditional authority, the council must give the leader of that authority the opportunity to express a view on that matter.

The MEC for local government in a province, after consulting the provincial house of traditional leaders, may by notice in the provincial Gazette regulate the participation of traditional leaders in the proceedings of a municipal council and prescribe a role for traditional leaders in the affairs of a municipality.

The gravity of the situation here is the extent to which traditional leaders are given a voice on governance decisions through their managed participation. It is clear that it is the MEC for local government who is responsible for identifying which leaders should participate in local government, and who may then attend and participate in the meetings of municipal councils. Even those limited numbers allowed to attend do not carry the authority of councillors nor have the right to vote.

Section 81(3) states that the leaders of traditional authorities which are to be directly affected by a municipal decision, are to be given an opportunity to make representations on the matter. However, the municipal council is not obliged to act on this view or to take it into account in the decision-making process. The participation of that regulated and limited number of traditional leaders cannot be expected to have any binding influence when decisions are taken. These stipulations result in traditional leaders merely becoming ceremonial figures in matters of local governance.

Whilst traditional leaders are subject to the requirements of the Public Finance Management Act, there is however no dedicated budget allocated to the traditional councils, the national house of traditional leaders, the provincial houses of traditional leaders, or the houses of traditional leaders at local level. This issue of the houses of traditional leaders having no dedicated budgets severely inhibits the effectiveness of traditional leadership.

The matters pertaining to resources and regulated participation have thus placed traditional leaders and traditional leadership just outside of the sphere of governance. Traditional leadership has in essence become an institution with no official function and none or very limited administrative capacity to perform accordingly.

For an improved partnership in governance between traditional leaders and all other structures of governance, a relook into these issues is necessary, hon Deputy Minister.

There is also the important issue of overlapping responsibilities and a lack of clear delineation of roles. For example, there have been instances in the country where Amakhosi and Izinduna have been responsible for the allocation of sites while, in the same jurisdiction, councillors have also been responsible for the same function. In this vein, the functions and powers of traditional leaders need to be spelled out just as those of municipalities are spelled out.

The real partnership between local government and the institution of traditional leadership needs to be strengthened and empowered through amendments in legislation in order to recognise the role of traditional leadership in governance.

Hon Deputy Minister, today I have been given ample time which is not usually given to me ... [Laughter.] ... so I would like to say that this is not a new matter in South Africa. There have been engagements between traditional leaders of the country, not of particular sections. In fact, you will recall that they even formed themselves into a coalition of traditional leaders coming from all corners and they engaged with the then Deputy President of South Africa – who is today the President of the country – on this matter, and there were agreements that were reached. However, those agreements have never been put into practice.

Hon Deputy Minister, we as the IFP are calling for this matter be looked into so that there is synergy and a smooth running of government at local level, so that both councillors on the one hand and traditional leaders on the other hand can find that they are part and parcel of governance issues on the ground. Right now you can talk of powers and functions which are regulated and which are there by law, but when one looks at traditional leaders we don’t have such regulations which are there by law in the country, except that the Constitution allows them to do certain things.

We are asking for these issues to be looked into. It’s not a new slate; you just have to refer to the engagements which have taken place and the agreements which were reached. We are asking that those be taken into consideration and to take them forward. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr M NYUSILE

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Mr M KHAWULA

Mr M NYUSILE (Eastern Cape): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, Chief Whip of the NCOP, the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, permanent members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Traditional leaders in our country have lived for centuries and they will continue to put their energies towards the advancement of the development of their own people. We must proceed from the position that our government respects this institution and recognises that it has a role to play in the advancement of the interests of our people within the context of a democratic setting.

Traditional Affairs in our province continues to provide the required support to the institution of traditional leadership to fulfil the constitutional requirement of recognising the role and functions of the institution. Despite financial constraints, the department continues to provide the institution with the required support as guided by national and provincial policies and legislation. However, it is noted that as our people begin to understand the role being played by our government in recognising and restoring the dignity of this institution, the number of claims and disputes continue to increase which pose a challenge not only to government, but to the institution of traditional leadership at large.

In terms of administrative support to our traditional leadership, there are 34 research reports on genealogies of royal families, subsistence and travelling accommodation for kings, gratuities for traditional leaders who have resigned and to beneficiaries of those who are deceased.

In terms of capacity-building, the department has managed to train 1 373 traditional leaders and made payments of certain allowances to traditional councils which have four sittings per year. The impact of that support is the construction and renovation of traditional councils has benefited the respective communities since these projects were labour intensive; gazetting of genealogies that were agreed upon and signed by all royal family members, and stability within royal families and the communities concerned upon resolutions of traditional leadership, claims and disputes.

In facilitating rural development, traditional leaders work closely with government departments in ensuring that our communities access government services such the SA Social Security Agency, Home Affairs, Rural Development and agrarian reforms. Regarding the partnership between Imbumba Yamakhosikazi Akomkhulu and government departments, research in some matters is also taken care of by the province.

Challenges that are actually confronting the province are delays in the finalisation of the Traditional Courts Bill; delays in the finalisation of traditional leadership and governance, particularly with the provision of local houses; the absence of determination for salaries of principal traditional leaders; sitting allowances for local houses, and the traditional leadership unfunded mandate, especially in relation to the national framework on tools of trades for traditional leadership. These are the key challenges that I think our province is faced with.

Moving forward for the coming five years, we will send 77 disputes and claims recommendations to the premier for decision-making purposes; construct 10 traditional leadership institutions; renovate 10 traditional leadership institutions; ensure more policies for the institution of traditional leadership are developed for good governance; continue with the establishment of local houses; more emphasis will be put on community and rural development; and establish a centralised initiation school to curb the alarming rate of deaths of initiates in Pondoland within the province. Those are the other matters that the premier will be taking care of.

In conclusion, the Eastern Cape is committed to realising the provisions of Chapter 12 of the Constitution as it is leading in some aspects of traditional leadership. Siyabonga. [Thank you]. Thank you so much. [Applause.]

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA

Mr M NYUSILE

Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members of this House and distinguished guests, in the Western Cape where the DA governs, we are moving forward integrating our rural and urban communities in line with our principles of an open-opportunity society for all.

The DA fully understands the Constitution and in this regard we should create an obligation on the state and the judiciary to safeguard our traditional groups and allow for them to carve out their space in society.

The Western Cape provincial constitution states clearly that provincial legislation must provide for the establishment and reasonable funding, within the province’s available resources, of a cultural council or councils for a community or communities in the Western Cape, sharing a common cultural and language heritage. Through this search in the Western Cape, we have registered 24 cultural councils and 16 of them belong to the Khoi and the San community. Others, respectively, are the isiXhosa, the Basotho, Bakae and the Zulu councils. This is a good story to tell, and the best story to tell.

How traditional communities benefit is an inclusive involvement in three of our public entities namely, the Western Cape Cultural Community, the Western Cape Language Committee and the Western Cape Heritage Community. These structures allow dialogue between government and our traditional bodies so that we can strive towards our constitutional mandate to protect each and every culture in South Africa.

That said, our biggest challenge is not the recognition of traditional leadership, but to integrate traditional leadership into an open society as the DA proclaims. In respecting all cultures where all South Africans are equal before the law, where there discriminatory laws like the former Traditional Courts Bill that was tabled before the NCOP in 2012, the DA’s message is loud and clear: We will continue to fight for human dignity, equality and freedom. This is evident by the Western Cape’s Respect Campaign which has just recently been tabled. We saw co-operation between our traditional communities and the Western Cape provincial government. This epitomises how traditional communities and government can support one common goal that protects our most vulnerable people. This is the best story to tell - not just good - but best.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Your time has expired.

Ms T M MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: It is interventions like these that show the DA’s commitment to growing our economy and creating jobs and allowing every South African to form part of an open-opportunity society for all and not just some.

IsiXhosa:

Makube chosi, kube hele, kudede ubumnyama kuvele ukukhanya kwi ...

English:

... traditional leaders.

[Time expired.]

Ms T WANA

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C/W: Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA

Ms T WANA: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Chief Whip of the NCOP, permanent delegates ...

IsiXhosa:

... iikumkani neenkosi zethu, molweni. Sihlalo, mandiqale ndilungise into apha phambi kokuba ndiqalise ngentetho yam. Nangona umbuthi iInkatha Freedom Party usithi nguwo owawuzise lo mba kodwa mawungasixeleli ukuba masilawule njani. Ngomhla we-7 kaCanzibe wonke umntu walinikwa ithuba lokuba athethe kulapho ke thina sathi safumana iipesenti ezingama-62. Asithethi ngolalwulo apha. Enkosi Sihlalo.

Ndize nakulo mba weDA. Sihlalo, lo awusenguwo umbuso olawulwa ngamajoni ongenelelo kuba sazabalaza ixesha elide kwaye akakho umntu onoMgaqo-siseko wakhe apha

English:

Let me get to what I wanted to say. I humbly thank the ANC for giving me this opportunity to stand here and deliberate on the topic. Let me congratulate the people’s organisation, for today it is 103 years old and is growing from strength to strength. Let me also salute the traditional leaders for taking the bull by the horns.

Let me briefly highlight the wars that were waged by the traditional leaders. Maybe these opposition parties did not consider the topic. The topic says ``Working together to ensure synergy and co-operation between local government and traditional leadership for the advancement of our people.’’ Therefore, I wanted to say ...

IsiXhosa:

... ngenye imini umfazi waphuma esithi: Zemk’inkomo Magwalandini!

English:

That was the war of Ngcayichibi, which marks the important history in the turning point of the African Resistance. The traditional leaders suffered and sacrificed their lives during the wars of dispossession. As my hon President of South Africa, Comrade Zuma, said in his speech on 12 February 2015 the arrival of the settlers in 1652 in South Africa was the end of dignity for a black person in particular because our land was taken by force by the settlers.

Let me quote something from between 1880 and 1881 in Qumbu in the Eastern Cape. There was a king called Mhlontlo who killed a magistrate called Hope. That was the conflict of the year because Hope, who was a magistrate, took the land of our forefathers. I’m just highlighting a few examples.

In Transkei, in Mthatha in particular, there was a king called Dalindyebo. He fought a successful fight because every now and then he was put in detention. His son called Sabatha died in Zambia because they were defending the land of our forefathers. [Interjections.]

Lastly, in 1960 ... [Interjections.] ... Keep quiet DA; you have got nothing to offer ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Address me, madam.

Ms T WANA: Lastly, in June 1966, there was the Pondo Revolt. I mean, this topic is relevant because the traditional leaders were working with their masses. The Pondo revolt was a pain to everybody. In June 1960 – let me say in 1961 - on 10 December, our Chief Albert Luthuli, who was called Mvumbi, was honoured with a Nobel Peace Prize. This proves that traditional leaders are leaders from their mother’s womb. What happened after all that? He left us with a book called Let My People Go. Today I want to say to the spirit of Albert Luthuli, ``Long live, because you are going forward, backward never.’’

After we voted in 1994, this ruling party managed to make a transformation. As a result of that transformation, seven provinces have got houses of traditional leaders. They are independent because one cannot mix these people because they are so special to us.

Lastly, in this ANC transformation, we managed to make a commitment that everybody is identified, even the traditional leaders because, by the look of things, the Inkatha Feedom Party is standing here bargaining for traditional leaders who are from their organisation. We have no problem with that. However, the ANC and its people are behind their traditional leaders. For that matter, I can say that we can’t stand here and act as if our leaders never fought in the struggle.

Secondly, I’m sure even those people who were torturing and detaining during the apartheid era should be ashamed of themselves. Even today, the traditional leaders know that the ANC is the only home that can take their struggle forward. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S A DUMA

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Ms T WANA

Mr S A DUMA (KwaZulu-Natal): Madam Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Minister of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, hon members, distinguished guests, on behalf of the province of KwaZulu-Natal, we would like to express our profound gratitude for the opportunity afforded us to participate in this important debate in the year of the Freedom Charter as declared by the ANC. Indeed, as we know, there is a correlation between land and amakhosi [chiefs] so the citation that ``the land shall be shared amongst those who work it’’ is critical to this age.

From the onset we must mention that we must debunk and demystify the myth that the ANC is against amakhosi and traditional leadership. I think, just to cite from the beginning, in 1912 at the formation of the ANC, there were kings who were present at that congress. You can name King Letsie, King Moshoeshoe and even King Dinozulu who donated to that congress, which means that even from the onset there was a recognition of traditional leadership. It is not something that took place yesterday, as we know some will claim. However, they are just claiming from 1975, 1990 and all of that. They are beginners and we have done this from a long time ago already. We must just clarify that process. [Applause.]

In fact we can just proceed by mentioning that even in the Kabe Congress in 1985 there was a resolution called the Congress Resolution Movement where we had to form all those congress movements: Contralesa, Cosatu, Sasco, Cosas, etc. These congresses are all a result of this resolution which means that, from time to time when we evolve as the movement, we see that traditional leadership will always play the role as part and parcel of that. I think that we will embark later on the issue of Inkosi Luthuli.

We view this debate as an important station on our journey towards an institution of traditional leadership that is able to play its role in the reconstruction and development of our country and her people. Seasoned travellers will attest to the fact that the two most difficult stages of any journey is setting off and marching on when the destination is just around the corner. Many a man has foundered and collapsed just as the destination beckoned, whilst others are not even brave enough to set off on their journey in the first instance. The ANC will always proceed irrespective of the conditions. We are even going to be the pioneers of ensuring that the material conditions are set by the revolutionaries, the people in our South Africa.

Indeed, before we embarked on this journey of the transformation of the institution of traditional leadership, we were visited by doubts - as many have already mentioned in terms of their scepticism - fearing failure and the hazards that our journey could bring. However, because we understood that those who have changed the world are those who ventured out in search of new ways of doing things, we decided that notwithstanding the inescapable fears that visit such occasions, we had a constitutional obligation to ensure that this institution is empowered and is critically aligned to our democratic dispensation. So, it is not even correct to mention that we are dealing with a process of giving them salaries and all those resources. I think that a lot has been done by this government to transform that institutional arrangement and even some of our governments in other provinces such as KwaZulu-Natal were given a chance at that point in time. It would be myopic just to cite and give you the true reflection of what happened when they were in power because nothing took place at that particular time. They were not even recognising it, so they are just blowing a hollow horn that has not even assisted.

We also drew courage from the words of celebrated sociologist and philosopher, Erich Fromm, who said:

Let your mind start a journey through a strange new world. Leave all thoughts of the world you knew before. Let your soul take you where you long to be. Close your eyes, let your spirit start to soar, and you’ll live as you’ve never lived before.

That is the comprehensive approach and stance that we want to take as the ANC.

As Fromm advised, we first imagined a world where the institution of traditional leadership was transformed, a world where there are synergistic partnerships between the institution and other democratically set up institutions working towards a common goal of building a South Africa fit for all her people. The vision that we saw put fire in the bellies of even the most cowardly amongst us to overlook the perils and hazards of our journey but concentrate on the ultimate prize.

We gather here today at an important time in the history of our country where this year we will be commemorating the 40th anniversary of the passing of Inkosi Albert Luthuli, an Mvumbi [continuous rain] from Groutville, a democrat, traditional leader, Christian, teacher, and farmer. An excerpt from this gallant fighter’s biography reads as follows:

In 1933 the tribal elders asked Luthuli to become Chief of the tribe. For two years he hesitated, for he was loath to give up his profession and the financial security it afforded him at that particular time. He accepted the call in early 1936, until removed from this office by the government in 1952.

We all understand that the government at that time and some of those who are still part and parcel of that remnant government today have changed and are singing another tune altogether. Our people cannot be deceived in that way. We still know and we are still clear on what transpired in our history. Obviously there are more quoted facts about Inkosi Albert Luthuli’s life, and that he was the first African Nobel Laureate. In a nutshell, even in those early days, Inkosi Albert Luthuli understood that democratic practice was not an antithesis to traditional leadership, and that the two were necessary parts of the growth trajectory of the African people.

It is the theme of today’s debate ``Working Together to Ensure Synergy and Co-operation between Local Government and Traditional Leadership for the Advancement of our People’’ that has prompted us to share this short history about Inkosi Albert Luthuli. We hope that from this excerpt of Inkosi’s life, some of the issues and feared points of conflict between two systems are allayed.

We have come a long way as a country. A lot has been said about our past and the era of subjugation of people in South Africa. A lot has been said about how we unshackled ourselves from the chains of oppression. The era I am referring to was characterised by the use of legislation to deprive our people of what was truly theirs, in particular with reference to the issue of land. A lot has been said as well. We still remember the era of Bantu authorities and Bantu administration and untold suffering and oppression which that system subjugated our people to. We knew even then that we shall overcome and that one day we will live in a truly democratic country which was attained because of the struggles that have been achieved by the ANC.

All of us were always in agreement then that the institution ought to be given a role. Even at that time, the key challenge facing us in the early nineties was to define that role. The task was left to the Constitutional Assembly, the body of elected women and men who were given the onerous but fulfilling task of crafting the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa in 1996.

Traditional leaders participate in government and development through a variety of structures - which hon Khawula mentioned, but he distorted some of the facts - because the reality from time to time is that the complementary duty of our government is to ensure that we create an enhancing environment for traditional leaders to participate in our hard-fought for democracy, and they are currently participating.

As I said earlier, Chapter 12 of our Constitution identifies the role of traditional leadership as an institution at local government level on matters affecting local communities. The Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 1998 firmed up this role through the enactment of section 81(3):

Before a municipal council takes a decision on any matter directly affecting the area of a traditional authority, the council must give the leader of the authority the opportunity to express a view on the matter.

So, this is structural and constitutional. It is the reality that as the ANC we must also ensure that we protect all the inhabitants - the communities - because the issue of land is also critical. Irrespective of what is happening in society, we must always have their interests at heart. This, therefore, is what we are doing. This is a very important provision. It was enacted with a view to preserving the integrity of the institution of traditional leadership.

It is therefore clear, hon members, that the participation of traditional leadership in government and development is now firmly entrenched in our law. When dealing with such participation, one must also remember that traditional leaders have now been recognised formally as public office bearers by section 219 of the Constitution.

The nature and form of co-operation between municipalities and traditional leaders is by and large dictated by the law. In conclusion, we just want to clarify that, in South Africa,

IsiZulu:

... izwe lethu lifike esikhathini lapho sifisa ukuthi amakhosi alazi iqhaza analo lokuthi kufanele umhlaba wonke ubuyele ezandleni zabantu, hhayi ezandleni zabantu abathile abakhethekile. Uma siyikhuluma le nkulumo-mpikiswano kufanele siqiniseke ukuthi ngaso sonke isikhathi kuyodingeka ukuthi uhulumeni aqinisekise ukuthi ngabantu abayohlomula emhlabeni ...

English:

... even trusts established should be formulated in a way to benefit

IsiZulu:

... wonke umphakathi hhayi abantu abathile abakhethekile. Sihlalo, ngokusho njalo ngiyavala. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]

Ms T J MOKWELE

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Mr S A DUMA

Ms T J MOKWELE: Chairperson, an analysis of the evolution of our democratic order as a country would be incomplete if it did not comprehensively analyse the role and the compatibility of the institutions of traditional leadership in our democratic society. In the pre-colonial era, the traditional leaders and traditional authorities were the important institutions which gave effect to traditional life. They also played an essential role in the day-to-day administration of their areas and the lives of traditional people.

The institutions operated and functioned according to applicable customs, traditions and customary laws. The customary laws were regarded by the members of the traditional community as binding on both the traditional leaders and the people alike. The colonial and the apartheid repression of black cultural expressions completely restructured the central principles of traditional leadership and, at times, resulted in some traditional leaders acting as stooges of the white minority regimes.

It was mainly the traditional leaders who waged relentless wars in defence of their people’s land and territories, and some paid the ultimate price for that. We honour the kings like Hintsa ... [Interjections.]

Ms L C DLAMINI: On a point of order, Chair. I just want to check if it is parliamentary to call amakhosi [chiefs] ``stooges’’?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mokwele, did you call amakhosi [chiefs] ``stooges’’?

Ms T J MOKWELE: I said they ``acted as’’, and not ``they are’’. I said they ``acted as’’.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, Ma’am. Please continue!

Ms T J MOKWELE: We honour King Hintsa, Sekhukhune, Bambatha, Makhado, Moiloa and many others on whose shoulders we now stand. But we need to be honest in addressing whether this institution of traditional leadership has moved on with the times or not. What role do leaders who are not elected meant to play in a society? And what accountability measures should be put in place to facilitate these roles?

Our view as the EFF is that the ANC has stifled what is meant to be the continually evolving role of the traditional leaders by ignoring the development of rural areas, which resulted in massive urbanisation. This leads to the massive development pressure on the urban areas. The ANC has effectively eroded the role of traditional leadership, and it is strategically delegitimising traditional leadership in the eyes of the people.

A 2013 report by the SA Institute of Race Relations, SAIRR, revealed that the percentage of people living in the rural areas has dropped from 48% in 1992 to 38% by 2011. The United Nations estimated that, by 2050, 80% of all South Africans will be living in urban areas. From the current trends, one can deduce that the size of the rural population and, with it, the role of traditional leadership will be exterminated.

Important as that may be, the traditional leaders cannot be only reduced to mere custodians of culture. The ANC strategy of maintaining the rurality of the rural areas is a death knell to the institution of traditional leadership. It is also an abrogation of our democratic principles because it fails to transform traditional leadership to ensure that it is in sync with the country’s commitment to rid our land of regressive, anti-progressive notions of traditional leadership, which has at its centre the maintenance of the patriarchal order.

This phenomenon, which is promoted by the ANC, is delegitimising and is interested in the subjection of rural folk, particularly women. We advocate for an institution of traditional leadership that is actively involved in the planning and the execution of local economic development programmes; a leadership that is accountable and appreciates the role and the worth of women. That can only be realised through proper development of the rural areas, with the traditional leaders as the central agents.

Setswana

Ke rata go raya magosi a gaetsho ke re: Nko ya kgomo mogala tshwara ka thata, e se re go utlwa monkgo wa kgaoga. Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.

Ms M C DIKGALE

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Ms T J MOKWELE

Moh M C DIKGALE: Modulasetulo, ke iša mantšu a tlhompho go Motlatšatona wa rena mohl Bapela, maloko a Ntlo ao a hlomphegago, le baeng ge e ba ba gona ka madulong a ka godimo, ke re go bohloko kudu go bona bana ba bannyane ba ema mo pele ga rena gomme ba telela bogoši. E no ba gore ga gona ka mokgwa wo re ka ba tabogago - ke be ke tla re re lebelele hlogo ya taba...

Ms T J MOKWELE:

Setswana

Modulasetilo, ke ne ke botsa gore a go mo molaong gore Mme Dikgale a re re bana ba ba nyenyane? Ke nagana gore mo Ntlong e, ga go na ngwana, rotlhe ba re leng fano, re maloko a a tlhomphegileng.

MODULASETILO WA KHANSELE YA BOSETŠHABA YA DIPOROFENSE: Motlhomphegi Dikgale, lebaka ke gore, mo Ntlong ena ga go na bana ba ba nyenyane, re maloko a a tlhomphegileng.

Sepedi:

Moh M C DIKGALE: Ke be ke tla tliša kgopolo ya gore re hlokomele ge re dira leneneo, ba bangwe re no ba lebala re se ke ra ba tsenya. Ka bomadimabe, ga re na le maatla ao. A ke tšwele pele ka gore go na le batho bao ba makatšwago ke taba ya gore mmušo wa go etwa pele ke ANC o akaretša le go šomišana le magoši. MaAfrika, a ke le botšeng lehono gore bogoši e sa le bo kgethwa ke Morena Modimo gomme le bjale o sa bo šireleditše, ka fao ke rata go leboga diprofense tše seswai tšeo di hlomphago bogoši e bile di bo šireletša. Mohl Mpambo-Sibhukwana, re bolela ka baetapele ba naga, ga re bolele ka dinagamagae.

Profense ya Kapa Bodikela ke yona feela yeo e se nago le didirišwa tša ntlo ya bogoši e bile mmušo wa gona ga o bonale o ikemišediše go šuta mo tabeng ye le ge gona le bohlatse bja go re MaKoi le MaSan bao ba dulago moo ba na le baetapele ba setšo.

Afrikaans:

Mev C LABUSCHAGNE: Voorsitter, ek wil net vra of die agb Dikgale ’n vraag sal beantwoord.

Moh M C DIKGALE: Sepedi – missing! [1:39]

Die VOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP: Sy sê nee, agb Labuschangne.

Sepedi:

Moh M C DIKGALE: Ka tlhompho Modulasetulo nka se kgone. Bjale, boipiletšo go MaAfrika Borwa ke gore a re thekgeng magoši a Kapa Bodikela ka gore bogoši bjo ba bo tswaletšwe. [It is their birth right.] Ge re le dikopanong tša Contralesa sello sa bona se segolo ke gore Tonakgolo Helen Zille ga a thekge dinyakwa tša bona. Ka segagešo re re ga a nyake le go ba bona ka leihlo.

Naga ya rena e bonwa ke batho ba bantši bjalo ka ketapele ya dinaga tša Afrika ge go etla tabeng ya tokologo. Ga re na le pelaelo ka seo ka gore re tseba gore re etilwe pele ke mmušo wa ANC go lwela gore go be le diphetogo tšeo di tlilego go hlabolla badudi ba Afrika Borwa.

Re betha diatla, kudukudu go MaAfrika Borwa ao a lwetšego tokologo. Magareng ga bona, ke tsopola Mme Mmadinoge, ke ra yena kgadi ya mošate wa ga Mashabela yoo a belegego bana ba mošate wa Bauba, dianamarena, bona bo kgoši Kgoloko. Ba fentše kgopolo ya boJan Van Riebeeck ya gore bathobaso ba se ke ba tšea karolo mo ditabeng tša dikgetho.

A ke tšwele pele ke gatelele kgopolo tše dingwe tšeo di be go di thekgwa ke bana bešo bomohl Duma le boMme Makwena Matlala. Bakone ba ba ile ba rwalwa ba lahlwa Zwelitsha le bana ba bona e le ge ba be ba le kgahlanong le mmušo wola wa go ila diphetogo. Re leboga ge mmušo wa go etwa pele ke ANC le bona batho ba ANC ka bo bona ba ile ba lemoga taba ye gomme ba ya ba rwala setopo sa gagwe, ba se bušetša gae gaMatlala, ba ya go mmoloka ba be ba hloma segopotšo.

Re rata go leboga mmušo wa ANC ka gore go tlogeng ga wona ka 1912 ga se wa ka wa tlogela bogoši ka ntle. Ke ka moo o rilego ge o hlongwa ka 1912, wa hloma ntlo ya godimo ya magoši yeo e bego e nale magoši a go hlomphega bjalo ka boDalindyebo wa Bathembu, Montsiwa wa Barolong, Lewanika wa Borotseland - yeo e bego e le karolo ya Zambia, Letsie wa Lesotho, Ian Khama wa Botswana, Sekhukhune wa Bobedi wa Bapedi - moo ke tšwago gona - le Dinizulu wa Mazulu.

ANC e hlomphile bogoši e bile le bjale e sa bo hlompha, ke ka fao e rilego ge e tsena mmušong ya dira bonnete bja gore magoši a be karolo ya mmušo. Lehono re na le dintlo tša bogoši. Re na le ntlo ya bosetšhaba yeo e hlokometšego dillo le dinyakwa tša bana ba mobu. Diprofense kamoka di na le yona ntlo ye ya magoši; ka ntle ga e tee feela ya bomaganadiphetogo.

Ge a be a šegofatša lekgotla la bogoši la bosetšhaba ka Aporele 1997, gona mo Palamenteng, seaparankwe Tate Nelson Mandela o rile o ikwa a itumetše ka nnete go bula lekgotla leo semmušo; go ema pele ga magoši e lego baetapele ba gagwe, go hlompha maemo a bona le go tšea karolo ga bona mo go hlabolleng le go ageng naga ya Afrika Borwa.

Re ipotšiša gore ge moetapele wa go swana le Tate Nelson Mandela yoo ka sekgowa re re go ke “world icon” a kgona go bona bohlokwa bja magoši mo mmušong, ke ka lebaka la eng ge ba bangwe ba sa bone taba ye? A e ka ba ke difofu goba e no ba dingangele? Ai, ga re tseba! Ge a tšwela pele nakong yeo ya go šegofatša Lekgotla la bogoši la bosetšhaba, Ntate Mandela o boletše gore boima ke go humana tsela ya gore mafapha ao a kgethilwego a ka šomišana bjang le magoši go re le wona a kgone go šomela dinagamagae tša wona ntle le bothata.

Se se bontšha gore Mandela o be a tseba gore mmušo le magoši ba swanetše go šomišana. Ka segagešo re re: “Sedikwa ga se na bogolo” e bile “Tau tša hloka seboka, di šitwa ke nare e hlotša” Nnete ke gore taba ye ya go kwantšha makala ao a kgethilwego le magoši e tšwa kgole mo mokgatlong wa ANC, ga e thome gonabjale. Se se ra gore ANC le magoši ke didupana... tšeo di ka se tsogego di tšwane.

Ka segagešo re na le morogo wa setopša, ka gare ga wona re tšhela ditloo tša go šilwa, ra tšhela matswai le marotse; gomme ge di bodule ra ja ra ipshina ra ikhumana re bethile mpa ka lenono. Ye ke tsela yeo re swantšhago segwera sa rena le ANC ka yona - e bile rena magoši re swanetše go tšwela pele re se kgwahliše. Re a khora e bile re ikgantšha ka ANC.

Kua profenseng ya gešo ya Limpopo, magoši a tšea karolo dikopanong tša mmasepala gomme taba ye e tšwela mošate mohola. Taba ye e tliša diphetogo go mokgwa woo magoši a laolago ka gona. Se se tlišitše kgatelopele gomme le ditšhaba tša gona di dula di thabile.

Ge ke bolela bjalo ga gona kopano le e tee yeo Tonakgolo ya rena Mna Stanley Mathabatha a ka e bitšago le Maloko a Lekgotlakhuduthamaga, gomme ba tlogela magoši ka ntle. Ba a tseba gore ge ba rera merero ya setšhaba magoši a swanetše go ba gona, a tšee karolo. Ge ba fihla dinageng tša magoši, pele ba ka bolela le ditšhaba tšeo, ba kokota le go tamiša mošate pele. Ba tsebiša bengmabu gore ba gona motseng. Ga ba swane le mekgatlwana ye mengwe yeo re dio kwago ba re ba kgobokane kaekae, ba na le batho ba bahlano feela gomme ba dira dikgoeletšo. Efela se ga se re makatše ka gore baetapele ba gona ke bommakaepea bao ba sa hlomphego bogoši.

A ke rume ka go tliša dikakanyo tšeo di ka tšwetšago pele tirišanommogo ye ya bogoši le mmušo. E ka ba taba ye botse kudu go re magoši a tšee karolo ka gare ga dikomiti tša mmasepala, tša Makgotlatheramelao le dikomiti tša yona Ntlo ye ya Lekgotla la Bosetšhaba la Diprofense, [NCOP.] Re le NCOP re kgonne go akaretša SALGA ka fao ke nako ya gore magoši a tšee karolo ka mo Ntlong ye. Re swanetše go tšweletša taba ya go re makhanselara a hlomphe maatla a bogoši mo tabeng ya go aba naga mo dinageng tša bona.

Makhanselara ga ba swanela go aba dinaga tša magoši mola magoši a duletše thoko. Se ga se age kamano ye botse le maaparankwe. Se tliša tlhakatlhakano setšhabeng; ba lebala gore “Šako la hloka thobela, ke mojano”. E ka ba taba ye botse ge mmušo wa rena o ka tla le lenaneo la go akaretša kgošikgolo. Re fela re ekwa batho ba profense ya KwaZulu-Natal ba bolela ka Januari 8, gore ba swanetše ba ye gae ba yo keteka le kgošikgolo ya bona letšatši la baswa la mokete wa mahlakanoka. Re fela re ekwa ba bolela taba yeo gomme re re ge e ka tsena ya ba leneneong la Palamente, e ka ba taba ye botse. Matšatši ao a a be gona re a hlompheng.

Re na le bokgošikgolo Sekhukhune, go fa mohlala, le bokgoši Mphephu Ramapulana e ka ba taba ye botse gore le bona re ba thekge. Ye nngwe taba ke gore bogoši bo šireletše magošigadi. Ba bangwe ka magaeng a bona ga go be le thari ya masogana gomme mafelelong bogoši bo feleletša bo gakwa ke sefero. Ka fao re be re kgopela gore mmušo wa rena o lebelele taba ye. Re leboga gore ba kgonne go re thekgela ba bogoši bja gaBaloyi bokgošigadi N’wamitwa bao ka nako ye ba dutšego setulong go hlompha bogoši bja lapa la bobona. Madišo, ke a leboga.

Cllr. S Nkatlo

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Ms M C DIKGALE

Cllr S NKATLO (Salga): Hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Chair, hon members and special delegates, hon Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, our most valued amakhosi, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. The SA Local Government Association, Salga, is indeed honoured and privileged to participate in this debate to reflect on the journey we have travelled with the institution of traditional leadership as we celebrate 15 years of democratic local government this year, with an emphasis on how we can strengthen our co-operation with traditional leaders to deepen local democracy and expand development.

We certainly welcome this opportunity, as we deem it crucial and timely to seriously consider issues relating to traditional leadership and democratic governance of the country.

Developmental local government is defined as ``local government committed to working with citizens and groups within the community to find sustainable ways to meet their social, economic and material needs and improve the quality of their lives’’. The proposal adopted in the White Paper combines the strengths of various approaches within a model which is consistent with the Constitution and recognises the positive contribution that both elected structures and traditional authorities can make in the overall development of traditional communities.

Emphasis that governance at local level is participatory and that leadership is about effective public participation presupposes the importance of the involvement of key stakeholders in municipal structures and processes, none more so than traditional leadership.

In addition to the relevant legislation, section 81 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act and section 4 of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act of 2003 outline the functions of traditional councils and these include: Supporting the municipality in needs identification of the community; facilitating the involvement of the traditional community in the development of the Integrated Development Planning, IDP, of municipalities in which the community resides, and participating in development programmes of the municipality.

The clear aim of these provisions is to ensure that the institution of traditional leadership contributes to the developmental role within democratic institutions.

However, after 21 years of democracy, the realities of constructing a new nation state have revealed themselves as entirely grittier and more complex than anticipated. The country has not overcome its past and has not as yet fully constructed its future, with an inevitable tension between democratic and indigenous governance structures prevalent.

The key issues appear to be the role of the traditional structures and leaders in the democratic dispensation and how we can ensure a harmonious relationship with the new democratic structures, that is, elected municipal councillors and councils of course.

While democratic governance processes are inherently conflictual and traditional leaders must participate therein, we must protect the integrity of traditional leadership and carefully craft their role in the executive processes of local government. Collaboration must result in traditional leaders playing a meaningful role in municipal governance and building sustainable relationships with local government structures and functionaries.

The gist of the matter is that co-operation of traditional leadership or monarchies with elected government structures works in many countries. So, there should be no reason why it cannot succeed in South Africa, where there is a rich history of traditional governance. A distinction should be drawn between traditional leaders’ intrinsic powers to lead their communities and local government’s democratic power to govern, both found in the same Constitution. For example, the British monarchy reigns over Britain but does not participate in the affairs of government.

In six countries, which are Lesotho, Botswana, Ghana, Malawi, Kenya and Zimbabwe, the public believes that traditional leaders still dominate the resolution of local disputes. In Benin, Madagascar, South Africa and Tanzania, the role of traditional leaders appears to be relatively marginal and local government plays the dominant role.

Practically, while there is a legislative framework on the relationship between local government and traditional leadership, there is a serious lack of understanding and implementation at all levels. Disparate practices have emerged across the municipal spectrum.

It should be noted here that the Traditional Affairs Bill proposes a different and more practical approach towards the participation of traditional leaders in municipal councils, and entirely overhauls section 81 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act. While it is understood that certain challenges can be and can only be addressed by means of appropriate legislative amendments, there are challenges that can be dealt with despite the limitations of the existing legislation.

To that end, the Department of Traditional Affairs, in co-operation with Salga, developed draft regulations and guidelines as interim measures to address some of the challenges and to bring about a measure of uniformity in the application of section 81 in practice, until the Bill is promulgated. The regulations and guidelines will then be rescinded. These stop-gap measures are necessary to provide short-term consistency in practice and respond to some ill-founded misconceptions among many traditional leaders and councillors of course.

The boundary challenges brought on by the municipal demarcation processes also require attention. Some traditional villages are divided between two local municipalities or one traditional leader finds himself having to serve two or more local municipalities.

Success in delivering basic services at local level is not only dependent on the budget appropriated, but more so on the effectiveness of co-ordination and participation of major role-players.

Modern societies and systems of governance are constantly changing. It is evident that traditional institutions and governance have not kept pace with democratic, economic and social transformation.

In conclusion, there is no doubt that our country needs vibrant, stable and self-sufficient traditional communities and leadership. It is in this context that the critical role of traditional leaders in effective local governance is paramount and its full potential must be unleashed.

It is therefore important that ... dikgosi tsa rona [our chiefs] be involved in the decision-making processes concerning development in their areas. If correctly managed, traditional leaders can contribute to local governance through the use of their legitimate influence over people to promote development and responsible citizenship.

Lastly, combined, the power of government and the influence of traditional leaders on community issues can undoubtedly catalyse much desired development and delivery at local level. As Salga, we remain committed to working with Cogta and our partners to find sustainable and long-term solutions to this fundamental challenge, and we believe by having this debate, we are well on our way to doing just that.

Setswana:

Sedikwa ke ntja-pedi ga se thata.

English:

I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M CHETTY

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Cllr S Nkatlo

Mr M CHETTY: Greetings and salutations, hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Deputy Minister, fellow members, dear guests and the security service members outside. As political parties we must not fail to realise that we have a constitutional democracy to protect this democracy that we all enjoy today, a democracy that was fought on the backs, blood, sweat and tears of men and women of true character and integrity. We speak about Tata Madiba.

The assault that this country witnessed on our constitutional democracy most recently must not be treated light-heartedly. For us to do so, would indeed be to cast scorn upon the sacrifices made by those heroes and heroines that have come before us.

The DA’s vision of an open-opportunity society is an inclusive vision, recognising every individual’s culture, tradition and human rights. Our traditional and rural communities are integral part of South Africa. Our priority as a national government-in-waiting and having achieved this in the Western Cape is to open up the economy to all, create jobs so that every person can live the life that they desire.

Whilst the ANC keeps traditional communities out of the economy, ignores their human rights and denies their freedom, the DA has a plan to include all South Africans in the open-opportunity society for all. Hon Wana, we agree that traditional leaders were at the vanguard of our fight for democracy and Inkosi Albert Luthuli, the then President-General of the ANC, was a traditional leader elected by the Amakholwa clan.

What the ANC has done is to segregate and isolate our traditional communities from participating in our governance system. How reminiscent of colonialism and apartheid. Regularly ignored by the ANC, the Constitution of South Africa conceived the framework for a fair and just society. Let me remind this august House that the Constitution exists to protect the freedom of every individual and not just some. This mentality that we are all equal and some more equal than others must stop.

Mr L SUKA: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Hon Chairperson, I just want to check if the hon member is aware of whether there are Khoi and San in this Western Cape as traditional leaders. Why is he not talking about them? Thank you.

Mr M CHETTY: [Inaudible.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is a point of order that I am listening to, hon member. Hon Suka wants to put a question. You did not seek the permission of the member. Hon member Chetty, are you prepared to respond to this question posed to you?

Mr M CHETTY: When the President decides to pay back the money, Madam Chair, I can take the question.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Excuse me? He is not responding. Hon Van Lingen, it is done.

Mr M CHETTY: Let me be clear: No institution, tradition or political party should stand in the way of free individuals pursuing opportunities to achieve a better life for themselves and their families. We heard references to apartheid. Not too long ago, the apartheid government, just like the ANC-led government today, use traditional leaders as agents of oppression and control of their constituents living in traditional and rural areas.

It sends shivers down my spine that history is repeating itself as the ANC-led government uses our traditional leaders to maintain political control. Our President, Number One, often resorts to history. So, let me tell you today that, in KwaZulu-Natal, the province of Nkandla, when it was under the rule of hon Shenge and his party the IFP, most traditional leaders were loyalists to the IFP. Now we have the ANC, who by virtue of manipulating the system, have cleverly created a legitimate loophole to compensate traditional leaders for their support by remunerating them for attending council meetings.

Allow me to quote Chief Mdutshane of Xophozo regarding the legislative regulations of the development functions of the traditional leaders in conflict or cohesion with municipal councils when he said:

My role is to unite people, and resolve disputes. People come to me when they have problems. I do not try to manage everything in the area. The problem with the introduction of [elected] councillors is that they do not know what they are supposed to do. They do not have the necessary training to adequately undertake their duties. They are inexperienced and nobody informs them of what they are supposed to do. Everybody knows what the chief is supposed to do. Chiefs are well established. There are no big problems between the tribal authority and the local councillor. Higher-up politicians have caused this conflict by not clarifying our roles, and now the conflict between the two has been turned into a political matter.

Let us look at land reform as an example. Land is the biggest national resource for our traditional communities. Vastly, including rural communities, about 21 million South Africans live on more than 17 million hectares of land. What has happened to owners receiving proper title deeds, capital investments, skills development and the access to the markets? Who is responsible for these areas? We have public representatives who were democratically elected as per our Constitution and traditional leaders. Let us not forget that the public representatives are answerable and accountable to the electorate and can be removed whilst traditional leaders are not and cannot be removed.

What we should have seen from this ANC-led government is equitable land distribution to benefit all and not only traditional leaders who can use it to hold the communities to ransom with the promise of votes. The DA’s respect for traditional leaders cannot be extended to support the sustained de facto control of land. The land should rightfully be given to those who were disenfranchised, including rural women who through the patriarchal system are often excluded from this process and unable to obtain land.

Councillors are still seen as being in conflict with traditional areas and inferior to the traditional leader. The irony is that the councillor will have a vote in Council but the traditional leader has control over his people. In respecting culture, will the ANC please enlighten me if we have clearly defined these roles or is the ANC stating that public representatives are superior to the traditional leaders by virtue of having the votes?

We believe that this inclusion of traditional leaders and municipal councils without a vote is merely paying lip service and is yet another scheme concocted by the ANC to gerrymander the electorate in ensuring that they hang on to power. The DA in government wants to create a new symbol of activism and caring and see traditional leaders as part of our diverse story.

If traditional leaders are truly leaders, they would not only support such an approach - being best practice to unlock rural development and participation - but will actively campaign for it. The ANC in its haste to enhance its support among traditional leaders by placing this debate before this House should have firstly ensured that there was legislation in place to either hold traditional leaders accountable or clearly define the roles and responsibilities pertaining to traditional leaders exercising their council responsibilities.

In conclusion, the speakers before me, by presentation and expression, concur. How can one clearly debate “Working together to ensure synergy and co-operation between local government and traditional leadership for the advancement of our people,” when there are no distinct boundaries and no definite roles and responsibilities? I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L B GAEHLER

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Mr M CHETTY

Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister... [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members!

Mr L B GAEHLER: ... it is imperative that local government and traditional leaders relate and forge a meaningful partnership based on development, transparency and accountability. Mutual acknowledgement, acceptance and respect, including appreciation of different and interdependent roles in the communities we live, is a requirement.

What seems to be a missing link in the realisation of the objects of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, Act 41 of 2003 is the following:

It does not appear that those who are charged with the responsibility to lead in implementing this legal framework – councillors – do know its objects. And if they do, then they are not interested in it. In many instances lazy ward councillors and proportional representative, PR, councillors are threatened by traditional leaders. Some of these councillors do not stay with the communities they are supposed to serve. Traditional leaders are still not respected, protected and promoted in accordance with the dictates of democracy in South Africa and this is inconsistent with the objects of Act 42 of 2003.

Active participation of traditional leaders in matters of local government, in particular service delivery, is not dependant on the willingness of councillors of those municipalities, as seems to be the practice today. The department must drive an aggressive programme of capacitating traditional leaders, communities and local government practitioners on Act 41 of 2003, which provides practical guidelines on its implementation. It must monitor compliance with the Act and remedial action must be taken against those who default.

Traditional leaders cannot be spectators; their voice must be heard on matters affecting their subjects. The Act, in section 20(1)(a – n) specifically acknowledges that traditional leaders’ roles are in safety and security, administration of justice, arts and culture, land administration, agriculture, health, welfare, the registration of births, deaths and customary marriages and so forth. Ensuring synergy and co-operation between local government and traditional leadership should not be made a political issue but a developmental imperative.

IsiXhosa:

Indawo yokuqala Mama uSihlalo, masimbulele umntwana kaKhawula ohloniphekileyo uKhawula kuba efake lo mba. Ngokwenene kulusizi ukuba siyijika siyisa kwezopolitiko le nto; ayingomba woukuba usiwe kwezopolitiko lo. Koomasipala abaninzi, iinkosi zihlala phaya; zingathethi. Ezinye azifumani naloo mali yenkxaso ezinye zazo kodwa xa kugula umntu ezilalini apho sihlala khona, abantu bancedwa ziinkosi hayi ooceba.

Ooceba bathi bakungena kubuceba bamke baye kuhlala ezidolophini. Ngokwenyaniso lo Mthetho ufuna ukujongwa kuba abantwana begazi nabo mabahlawulwe. Ithi i-UDM abantwana begazi mabahlawulwe, iinkosi, iinkosana nezibonda. Kaloku ngabo abenza lo msebenzi lona. Masiyeke ukuyisa kwezopolitiko ke le nto. Ayifuni ezopolitiko lena into. Kufuneka, Mphathiswa ohloniphekileyo siwuxoxe lo Mthetho. Umntwana kaKhawula unyanisile, abantwana begazi kufuneka bahlawulwe ngomsebenzi abawenzayo banganikwa imali yenkxaso nje kuba naloo mali yenkxaso nguMasipala ogqibayo. Ukuba loo nkosi ayithandwa, ayiyifumani loo mali yenkxaso. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Mr L P M NZIMANDE

Mr L B GAEHLER

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, I move on the premise that members from the beloved movement of the people, in particular, have articulated our position and policies. They have given us the analysis of the state of affairs in relation to the role and functions of traditional leaders in our system of governance. I also move on the premise that we all remember that our state is a Republic with a Constitution that accords everyone equality, human rights and general rights to participate in politics.

Hon Khawula, traditional leaders - and many of them come from your party and our party - have been participating as politicians in the system of governance and thus representing the interests of traditional leaders in our democracy. The role of traditional leaders - sometimes confined to customary responsibilities - is indeed relevant and appropriate to them for that purpose. There is no contestation in as far as that is concerned.

I further move on the premise that when we talk about the participation of traditional leaders we are talking about their ability to influence people to understand democracy. We are also talking about their ability to participate in fighting crime, promoting health and development within their traditional rural community spheres and even in helping to create jobs for the people in order to fight the scourge of poverty that result in people migrating to urban areas and thus becoming outcasts in informal settlements that are not serviced.

We play this role together with traditional leaders to ensure that the rights accrued in the Constitution are indeed beneficial to the people that we, as politicians and traditional leaders, are serving. We also move with the assertion that traditional leaders hold and carry out whatever responsibility is entrusted on behalf of the members of their communities who have a right of choice, association and participation in any activities within the country. I think there is no contestation there, unless you are confused like the EFF and the DA speakers here today who are totally misled. But I am coming to them just now.

Hon Chetty keeps on misleading this House. I want to put it on record that the Constitution of this country is not under any threat. It is a Constitution that is nurtured by the blood and the spirit of the heroes - some of whom he quoted here - and by all of us committed to it. We will defend this Constitution with everything it takes. We did it in the past, we are doing it today and we will continue to do it even in the future. This Constitution is under no threat. [Applause.]

Now that the hon Chetty has played a political game, let me also do the same with him. He was a councillor in Msunduzi Local Municipality where I come from. He is part of those people who collapsed the municipality. When section 139(1)(b) was put in place, he was a councillor there. Thereafter he ran away from there to come and play clean and perfect here. This is the kind of hon member he is. He must also pay back whatever it was that he benefited from, when that municipality collapsed. [Interjections.] Right.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Nzimande. Hon Nzimande, sorry!

Mr M CHETTY: Hon House Chairperson, on a point of order: hon Nzimande is misleading this House, in the sense that I was the former ... [Interjections.] No, no, I am speaking to the House Chairperson. Hon House Chairperson, give me some protection.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon members! Allow the hon to make his point of order. Hon member, what is your point of order?

Mr M CHETTY: Hon House Chair, I was a member of the ANC and, after resigning, I became a member of the DA in the council and thereafter I came over here. The hon Nzimande is misleading this House. I never came across here and ran away from the Council when it became defunct.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Chetty, that is not a point of order.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: House Chairperson, now I find it a bit difficult to respond to hon Mokwele. It was a mishmash of a speech that I could not understand. She was talking about the evolution of rural areas. I do not know how a rural area can evolve. Evolving into what? And from there she spoke about us delegitimising the chiefs. It was such a mishmash of a speech that must have been written by somebody who was sleeping and who must have had something last night and then just handed it to her before she came to this House. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Nzimande, sorry!

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Yes, House Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Mokwele!

Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chair, on a point of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Yes!

Ms T J MOKWELE: House Chairperson, hon Nzimande was not with me when I was writing my speech. So, he must refrain from alleging that my speech was written on my behalf by somebody. I read what I wrote and explained what I had written. So, he must just continue with ANC tendencies ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): No, hon members! Allow the hon member to make her point. Hon member, that is not a point of order; it is a discussion.

Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, I want to refer you back to the previous term when a ruling was made by the Chairperson of the NCOP that in future we should refrain from alleging that somebody’s speech was written by someone else. That was a ruling in this House. I refer you to the Hansard and I would like to call on you to make a ruling on that matter. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Unfortunately, you are not referring me to a Rule; you are referring me to what happened in the past, so I can come back and confirm what we have dealt with, hon Labuschagne.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: I thank you, hon House Chair. The speech remains a mishmash. Regardless of who wrote it, it still remains a mishmash that cannot be understood and that is senseless.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Nzimande, sorry!

Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon House Chair, I request that the hon member ... I am afraid the police will be called. [Laughter.] So, he must not go that route. I suggest that all the speeches were a mishmash. If we had to debate about traditional leadership and synergy ... all of them, especially from the ANC, were a mishmash. So, he must not continuously refer to my speech as if ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you. Hon member, I have allowed you to make your point. But seated here as a presiding officer, I am not comfortable with your statement that I am going to call the police. You are making a very serious statement. So, refrain from doing that.

If you want to raise a point of order, go ahead; we will allow you to do so. But what you are raising is a subject for debate. It is a point for a debate.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: I thank you, hon Chair. Again, as a matter of fact, I cannot be instructed by the EFF on whatever they think I must say or not say, as long as it is in order and the Rules of this House which we honour highly.

Hon House Chairperson, hon Khawula also raised a point that the ANC is focusing on remuneration and so on. We are not ashamed of that. The dignity of traditional leaders has been affected for a long time ... [Interjections.] Not for votes. There are very few traditional leaders in the country. Their votes might not even count 1%. So, we are not requesting their votes. We will go to them and campaign if we want their votes. And we are not ashamed of that either. If they give us their votes because we are doing well as government, it is 100% okay with us as the ANC. Yes, if they do vote for us they are doing so because of our policies which recognise their dignity and also because they accept and appreciate the performance and policies of the ANC. [Interjections.]

Listen to this one, hon House Chair. It is hypocritical for any DA member to howl here now, because they celebrated a short-lived acceptance of Inkosi uDalindyebo. They were over the moon with that. Now they are coming here and talking a different story. The traditional leaders might see them for what they are. They celebrated because they hoped that the AbaThembu, in the Eastern Cape, would vote for them. It is a shame! This is hypocrisy. We have seen this hypocrisy with the DA people.

Now, in the Western Cape, the same thing is happening, Chair. They are busy creating a theatre because they think that culture is something that can just emanate to be played and danced on stage. They formed 16, 17 or 20 cultural councils just for dancing! The cultural groupings come from traditional communities. There is no culture that is separated from tradition. Therefore, they must recognise the traditional leadership in the institution and they must allocate the budget for that.

The Khoi and San people living here are a traditional community and not a cultural group to dance for them. [Interjections.] So, they must not organise a play, get cultural groups to dance, and dance for them. And, therefore , we are saying that, in the Western Cape, traditional communities must be recognised as such, with their own leaders and a budget must be allocated to them and not just cultural groups for celebration. [Applause.]

Therefore, in our view as the ANC, the synergy exists. Our colleagues, my comrades, have quite categorically explained and clarified where this synergy exists - the Acts, legal frameworks and the Constitution which encapsulate all of these synergies. And they made a commitment that the ANC will continue to make sure that the role of traditional leaders in terms of co-operating and participating in the development of their own traditional communities and themselves continues.

As I said, on the point of remuneration and salaries, we also continue to make sure that there are traditional courts or the traditional seat areas of traditional leaders ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Nzimande!

Mr J J LONDT: Hon House Chair, the point of order is that I think we must just call on the officials to make sure that the timer that is on the system is placed in such a manner that everybody can follow what is going on. So, you must please just ask the officials to make sure that with the timer we have got here, there is some kind of noise or signal given to all the members in the House so that they can see when the time has run out.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Hon Londt, take your seat.

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon House Chair, as such we will honour and make a plea to all our traditional leadership and the people in the traditional communities to work with the ANC unashamedly because we are here to improve their lives and their living conditions as they are part of the democracy and the Republic that they fought for. I thank you, hon Chairperson. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

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Mr L P M NZIMANDE

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela): House Chairperson, I would like to apologise for the wonky movement.

Let me, at the outset, thank the hon Khawula for the debate that he sponsored today to discuss this very, very important and significant topic. As he said, it was the first time that he had been given 10 minutes to speak. I thought he would use all of them, but he did not. [Laughter.] I think, perhaps, he felt intimidated with only 10 minutes – he should really have gone into that.

I think all speakers, participants and parties agree that there is a role for traditional leadership in democracy. Indeed, they support it. Obviously, unfortunately, some played into the politics of it, such as the DA and the EFF, but it is just an unfortunate element. We hope therefore that this matter will be treated ... The traditional leaders, some are watching us - wherever they are – as we debate and tackle this very important topic.

Today’s debate offers us an opportunity to reflect on traditional leadership in a democratic dispensation, particularly on the relationships between local government and traditional leadership in the advancement of democracy. In South Africa, the relevance and location of traditional leadership continues to be debated quite extensively by various sectors of society.At the core of the debate is the compatibility of this institution with democracy and human rights. The institution of traditional leadership is perceived to be anachronistic by several proponents of democracy. There are, of course, those who believe that this institution will just die and be forgotten. They are, unfortunately, not going to see that. This is contrary to the recent general election, where about 23 million voters in the country voted from the traditional communities themselves.

In giving strength to the department and the alignment with the goals of the National Development Plan, NDP, our strategic focus will be outlined in the following five-point plan. We refer to it simply as the five pillars. The first is the stabilisation and strengthening of the traditional leadership institutions. The Constitution recognises them and it is left to us to enact legislation that can begin to give them meaning and effect. As we do so, we then have to stabilise and strengthen them, and ensure that all traditional leadership institutions in the country are supported. As we say this, we are looking at all the indigenous groups: amaZulu, Bapedi, Basotho, Bavenda, Emaswati, Batswana, amaXhosa, amaNdebele, Vatsonga and the Khoi and the San. All of them deserve better stabilisation and strengthening. [Applause.]

The second pillar is the promotion of a cultural and customary way of life. This conforms to the Bill of Rights and constitutional and democratic principles. We need to begin to look at those activities and ensure that they are promoted, because amongst those is language; amongst those is our pride in the clothes that we wear; amongst those is the food and the African way in which we prepare it.

Let us then begin to see people going into spaces in the tourism market and having African restaurants that serve African cuisine. When one goes to other countries, like China, and elsewhere, one can see they are proud of who they are. In South Africa, we tend to forget who we are. Therefore, we really need to assist and ensure that the traditional leadership plays a leading role in this, with our support.

The third is the development of policies, legislation and regulations towards the transformation of the sector itself. Unfortunately, there are still such practices as ...

IsiXhosa:

... ukuthwala ...

English:

... and others, that are discriminatory in nature. We might then begin to look at a group of those and ask what it is that we are going to be doing to reform and transform them. In this way, they can still be there as part of the display, however, without discrimination against the women or the children, in that particular context.

The fourth is the revival and activation of economic activities, working in collaboration with other sectors and government. Let our people balime [plant]. Let our people go back and benze amabeads [make beads]. Let our people go back benze imitshayelo [make brooms]. So, the land is plentiful. It gives them all the natural resources. Let them begin to be marshalled, so that they can be active in that economic activity, and then see themselves thriving as communities.

The last, obviously, for the role of the leadership of the institutions is to be involved in issues of social cohesion, nation-building, and the moral regeneration of our society. If traditional leaders can really take these five points, move on and be recognised as the voice of society, society will then begin to acknowledge, respect and give them the dignity that they need.

We raised these particular issues - understandably so – and other speakers have too: colonialism and apartheid had, over a period of time, indeed destroyed and distorted this institution of traditional leadership. The time is right for us to restore it, give it that dignity and that respect. Obviously, however, the laws that are there, including the Constitution that recognises traditional leaders in Chapter 12, are the laws that we need to begin to work on constructively to ensure that they are helping us to achieve that goal.

Our democracy is 20 years old. The focus has been on national and provincial governments. For the past 14 years, it has been on local government, just six years short of our focus in terms of our national activities and priorities. Now is the time, during these 20 years of democracy, that we ought to be giving maximum attention to the traditional leaders.

Hence, the ANC-led government has established a distinct department within the family of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. It will focus on the championing, restoration, stabilisation and strengthening of traditional leadership. Now, in the administration of our President, Jacob Zuma, there will be a Deputy Minister dedicated to and focused on that, so as to say that we, as the ANC, love this institution. It is part of our heritage, and we will really have to ensure that we are able to assist it to settle properly, strengthen and let it take and occupy its place in society.

Traditional leaders are critical in ensuring that communities are mobilised to make inputs in the integrated development plans, IDPs, when we relate it to the traditional leaders and the IDP processes at municipality level. The Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act of 2003 and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 2008, which were quoted quite extensively, require that traditional leaders must be consulted on identified priorities before they are finalised in the IDPs. What is lacking is the How. The relationship that exists between them and councillors is sometimes adversarial, sometimes very smooth. It depends on personalities.

So, the regulations, therefore, between the SA Local Government Association, Salga, and the Department of Traditional Affairs, as the Salga speaker said, are there to fill in the gap that must be in the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill that is coming before Parliament. The Act will strengthen that particular role and the regulatory framework will then accompany it, so that it is not up to the choice of the individuals at any given time. It is a choice because that is the path we have all chosen for ourselves.

Traditional leaders are therefore expected to provide advice on issues of culture, heritage, socioeconomic development and service delivery. They are requested and urged to continue to make valuable input into the processes of the IDPs, participate in ward committees and make information available to government for planning. When I say this matter is the ``How’’ part, a lot of them are complaining that when these IDPs are called for, they are just called in like any member of the public. They go into the hall and are just like everybody else. There is no dedicated focus where there is proper consultation with them, respecting the institutions and sitting with them, whilst, obviously, continuing to engage the masses in those particular meetings.

In terms of the role of the houses of traditional leadership in policy-making, we have two levels of houses of traditional leadership. The first is at the national level. It is a national house. It was established as the voice of traditional leaders and their communities, to be heard on policy and legislation. Houses of traditional leaders are urged therefore to make input into policy and legislation that impact on traditional leadership. There is a proposal from the House here that we might then probably have to look at them being represented in the NCOP. There is that call by the traditional leadership. We are looking at it as part of the amendment to the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Act. Let’s begin to examine it and look at the pros and the cons.

I must say, they are lobbying very strongly. You may shake your heads if you like, but they are just talking about representation here, like Salga, which has special representation. I don’t think the country will fall apart because of that special representation. We have given it to Salga. Why can’t we give it to the other house? I think it is in that context. I saw that an hon member was just thinking that they would want a vote, or something! [Laughter.]

The houses of traditional leaders must be able to give account on the number of policies and Bills on which they make their input. This will ensure that our rural communities and their communities are well represented. The implementation of the policies also needs the houses to play a critical role in ensuring that all legislation assented to by the President of the Republic of South Africa is implemented.

The house is advised to subscribe to the Government Printers so as to receive all Bills and legislation published. This will enable the house to engage stakeholders from an informed position. That is the advice we give to the house of Traditional Leaders.

On 5 March, they will be opening a House in the Old Assembly. I hope Members of the NCOP will be fully represented at that sitting. On 10 March, they will be debating the presentation by the President of the Republic. I therefore want you to participate, so that we can understand their roles.

On land issues, we are urging the traditional leaders to remain the custodians of the land which is held in trust on behalf of their own communities. Government and the private sector require land for development. Traditional leaders are urged to release land for development purposes.

Traditional leaders have to collaborate with municipalities on matters of land use and management. Indeed, we really need to ensure that we perfect this function too, which is not 100% perfect. The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is the custodian of the trustees of the traditional land in the hands of the traditional leaders. We are engaging the department to develop a regulatory framework so that we can smooth out relationships on land use and land management, on those particular issues.

On moral regeneration and the improvement of the moral fibre of society, traditional leaders are known to be custodians of good moral fibre. It is of the utmost importance for traditional leaders to lead in the promotion of moral fibre and regeneration. Substance abuse by young people is a result of the degeneration of moral fibre. Traditional leaders have a major role to play in the promotion of family and community values.

There are still, however, too many traditional leadership disputes in the country, and the stabilisation of the traditional leadership institution is rocked by that. Family members are fighting among themselves. There are those that come from outside of the royal families who also are beginning to bring up other issues that we have to examine when they are brought forth, disputing the legality and authenticity of some of the Houses there. The national House of the Traditional Leaders has to take a lead in this aspect, so that we are able to have stable royal families, traditional leaderships and communities.

I know that in South Africa, we call it traditional leadership. Elsewhere in the world, they are called royalty. They are called royal leaders because ``traditional leaders’’ limits them to issues of tradition. Yet we are expecting them to play them a role in moral regeneration, in social cohesion and also in nation-building. If that be the role, then I think we should begin to examine that.

The national House of Traditional Leaders therefore is required by law to promote unity and cohesion amongst the structures of traditional leadership. It is expected of the national House to ensure there is sound community cohesion and unity on the ground. The different structures of traditional leadership in the national, provincial and local houses and the Traditional Council must work together as a united force in order to address the issues affecting this institution.

I heard hon members saying that the urbanisation of South Africa that is taking place is as a result of the ANC. I do not understand that, because urbanisation occurs as a natural phenomenon all over the world. People are moving from the rural areas into the centres of opportunity and activity, and they will go to the big cities, where opportunity is. No political party of any nature, no matter how powerful that political party is, can force people to leave rural areas to go to where development is taking place. It is a natural phenomenon. It happens in the world and South Africa is experiencing exactly that. [Interjections.] It is rapid urbanisation. Go and study books. Read books properly. Look at the statistics. They will tell you it is happening the world over, and South Africa is not exempted from that particular activity.

However, the ANC has, as one of its five key priorities, rural development. There is a Ministry and department dedicated to that with a director-general focusing on programmes, activities and issues of rural development. Indeed, we are beginning to turn rural development into places of choice for our own people and for South Africa.

Over the years, traditional institutions managed to survive, despite the frequent efforts of colonialists to marginalise or even to eradicate them, efforts that sometimes spanned centuries. This nonelected form of leadership not only survived, but has also, quite evidently, thrived. However, its role and nature is determined by development itself, and also by society and the leadership in that society to look at its evolution across the world. Indeed, it does have to modernise. It must modernise.

We need, then, to recognise the role that they play. I think we all regard them as heroic in terms of fighting colonialism and fighting apartheid from 1652 up to 1906, with the Bambatha Rebellion - and thereafter, obviously, they were part of the championing of a resolution towards a national movement, called the African National Congress. Indeed, they continuously participate in trying to say we need to save this country.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr K O Bapela) (Contd.): A study called Chieftaincy, the State, and Democracy: Political Legitimacy in Post-Apartheid South Africa was conducted by J Michael Williams in 2010. He arrived at the following conclusion – that South Africa :

... wanted the chieftaincy to continue not only for what it did on a daily basis, but because of what it meant to the community in the broader sense.

In addition to resolving disputes or helping to provide development, he found frequent references to the role of chieftainships in securing discipline, dignity and respect for the community and providing the foundations for communal harmony and unity. At the same time, Williams asserts that traditional leaders’ role as a symbol of unity is neither uncontested or nor sufficient to secure their position in society. He argues that the public assesses the claims of both the state and traditional leaders to moral legitimacy. Both the state and traditional leadership have a role alongside their claims to performance legitimacy which, in South Africa and likely in most of Africa, is rooted in the diversity of development and services. That is how we also ought to begin to engage in debates and discussions. Let’s find a solution of a structure settling in a democratic dispensation, settling in a country, in a republic, settling in a constitutional dispensation but also finding a space to then begin to exhibit and play a role in society.

During consultation with traditional leaders and their communities, local government, and other stakeholders before the development of the White Paper, a number of suggestions were made regarding a suitable model for rural local governance in those areas falling under traditional leadership. Proposals ranged from traditional authorities becoming the primary local government in their areas to a clear and exclusive division of powers and functions between elected local government and traditional authorities. The adopted proposal combines the strengths of various approaches within a model which is consistent with the Constitution and recognises the positive contribution that both elected structures and traditional authorities can make in the overall development of traditional areas and communities. The adopted model ensures co-operation, communication and consultation between local government and traditional leaders and institutions. So, that is the model that we need to perfect and ensure that it can take us forward in championing the existence of traditional leadership. As it reforms, it also begins to adapt and modernise itself in this complex environment where its role will no longer be the same as in a democratic dispensation.

Traditional leaders have to work hard towards being self-reliant and self-sufficient to ensure their continued survival and existence. Yes, the department will be there to help them, and we have established a national task team together with the traditional leaders. That task team is now beginning to look at all the issues in the basket, not just remuneration, salaries, packages, and so forth – all the issues from whether they have to have a vote or not at the municipal level to looking at whether they are adequate or inadequate, including the agreement in 2007, the memorandum of understanding, which was signed by a coalition of traditional leaders, as hon Khawula from the IFP indicated. We are looking at that document. Solutions to some issues were indeed implemented. Some are being assessed for their inclusion in the programmes of government to ensure that we are able to comply fully with the issues raised as matters that can really help in the settlement of this.

The most ideal option is to embrace the dual traditional and democratic government systems. We have no choice in South Africa. We have traditional leadership. We have democratic institutions. Both of them exist and have to coexist. Therefore, we need to begin to ensure that these relationships are strengthened, particularly at a local level where there seems to be quite a number of challenges.

Coming to the Back to Basics-approach, as I move towards my conclusion, we are now beginning to identify the following five priorities for traditional leaders. By putting people and their concerns first, we are saying that the role of the traditional leaders, being the closest to the people and having to be the ones who listen to and hear people more often, must be to ensure that they continuously become the voice of those communities in governance, in planning, and in implementation.

In terms of the delivery of basic services, we need to harmonise and strengthen the relations between them and government, the private sector and civil society to enhance service delivery through regulations. Furthermore, traditional councils need to take the initiative to support and complement government service delivery.

On good governance and sound administration, we say that we have 829 traditional councils in South Africa and only 278 municipalities. A figure of 20%, therefore, was the rationale for a proper governance model to exist. You will find that in one council, there will be more than 10 or even 20 traditional councils, in some areas. You cannot then say that in a council of 10, all 20 traditional councils must go and participate because the number of the traditional leaders and those that are elected will not balance. The 20% ratio was in consensus. The traditional councils will remain that number; municipalities are from 800 to 278. We are now further rationalising municipalities to be even fewer. We do not know how many municipalities there will be. It is more a question of how the two relate going forward.

On financial management, we say traditional councils must be trained and capacitated to ensure that the monies they will receive, and some already receive, are accounted for. We live in a world of accountability; we do not want to find traditional leaders having to face courts or the Auditor-General about mismanagement of monies and so forth. We need to protect their image and their dignity. As the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we are therefore working to ensure that we are able to take these actions and create this ideal environment of community and traditional leadership that is at peace with itself.

Then I just want to say to the House that we are aware of the challenges that are still faced by the traditional leaders, but the national task team is engaged on this issue. The deadline for concluding on the matters and proposals, going forward, is 31 March. So then a programme of agreement will have been reached with all traditional leaders across the spectrum. We will then be able to engage on the implementation. However, in the processes of consultation, we have identified issues that can be addressed immediately. We have a group that are medium term and a group that are long-term issues because of the resources that we still have to consider. However, this matter will definitely be realised.

Therefore, let’s then begin to give this dignity and ensure that it settles. As to its future, as we discuss and debate, as we started today, I am saying that they have a role to play in society. It is going to be a symbolic role. It is going to be the protector of the cultural, traditional, and customary African way of life. It is going to be the protector of our heritage. It is going to be the wisdom of our national identity. As Africans, particularly the indigenous groups, we must never forget who we are and where we come from.

They will also mobilise people to celebrate their being and their existence, celebrate colours and cultures. As we can see with other nationalities that have settled in South Africa, they will have a Chinese day, a Portuguese day, etc. You need to be proud of who you are and celebrate yourselves as South Africans of African origin, as proud indigenous people of this country.

As for the DA in the Western Cape, now that you have told us that you really embrace culture so much, one of the chiefs who was arrested, sent to Robben Island and banished to one of the areas here, a farm later known as Langa, was Nkosi Langalibalele of the amaHlubi. Can you go back to that township and rename it Nkosi Langa to demonstrate to us and ensure that, indeed, you have embraced the new South Africa, and you are proud of that? [Applause.]

To the traditional leaders, there is no other organisation that loves you more than the ANC. [Applause.] We care for you, we love you, and we will do everything to ensure that all the challenges that you are facing now are resolved over a period of time. As you can see, we are almost at a national level. The national government has settled. Provincial governments are settled. Local government is struggling to settle, so your issues are also still struggling to settle. You are not alone in the journey towards seeking resolutions going forward.

I therefore want to thank everybody for participating in this debate, and we will, indeed, take these matters forward. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi): Thank you, Deputy Minister. Let me take this opportunity to thank Salga, special delegates, and the sponsor of the very important, relevant topic, hon Khawula. Indeed, it will be business unusual.

The Council adjourned at 16:56.

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Hansard: NCOP: Plenary: Motions; Reports; Legislation; Debate on traditional leadership in South Africa

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 24 Feb 2015

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