Hansard: NCOP: Questions to Cluster 4 – Economics (Continue) (Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Mineral Resources, Public Enterprises, Rural Development and Land Reform, Telecommunications and Postal Services, Communications, Science and Technology, Environmental Affairs)
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 13 Nov 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Thursday, 13 November 2014 Take: 105
THURSDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:01.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENT
START OF DAY
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. I would like, as we proceed, to take this opportunity to welcome our Ministers and Deputy Ministers. I also take this opportunity to alert this honourable House that we are aware that the members of the National Assembly might be required in their House at a particular time. We can assure you that we have made arrangements to be alerted and to be able to suspend our business and give the hon members enough time to get to the House until they have finished and come back to us.
Members, I therefore take the opportunity to call on the hon Minister Pandor to begin with the questions.
QUESTIONS
ANNOUNCEMENT
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Question 217:
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I’m answering Question 217. In my reply, I must begin by informing hon members that not all science councils reside under the administration of the Department of Science and Technology. We do have institutions that are administered by departments, and the Council for Geoscience is an entity that is accountable to the Department of Mineral Resources. But the role that we play, with respect to the various science entities, is to conduct independent studies to assess the state of research and technological capacity of the research bodies and provide decision-makers with a report on priorities regarding modernisation of infrastructure, technology enhancement as well as human capital development requirements.
We carried out such a study in the beginning of 2010. It was a partnership between us – Science and Technology - the Council for Geosciences as well as the Department of Mineral Resources, the responsible department. We produced a report which was titled Overview of the Council for Geosciences. It was published in 2011 and provided an assessment of the council’s research and technological capacity. The report identified a lot of deficiencies which we believe needed to be addressed over a period of time and we developed recommendations aimed at introducing appropriate interventions.
The deficiencies included the fact that the infrastructure and the equipment of the council was more than 20 years old and they needed recapitalisation and that the building hosting the analytical laboratory needed major refurbishment. It had already been declared unsafe by inspectors. We also said, although the council had the necessary skills to operate specialised equipment, the skills could be lost if we didn’t have the necessary upgrading.
We were fortunate in that National Treasury had by that time, Chairperson, introduced what we call the National Treasury Economic Competitiveness Package and from that budget item we were able to secure R200 million through Mineral Resources in 2012 for a three year refurbishment and modernisation upgrade to the council. This began to be implemented from April 2012 and its conclusion date is 31 March 2015. It is an update of the laboratory equipment and the infrastructure of the council. Any detail with respect to work being done can be sourced from the Department of Mineral Resources. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister. Did the hon member who posed the question make arrangements, hon Smit?
Mr C F B SMIT
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, what will the department do about the ageing infrastructure at the Council for Geosciences and Onderstepoort Biological Products as a hamper to entities’ ability to play its role in realising the aspirations of the National Development Plan, balancing their developmental and commercial mandates and attract, train and retain critical scientific skills?
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon member, with respect to the Council for Geosciences, I’ve answered that there’s a three year process under way. With respect to Onderstepoort, that is the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, but I am aware that the Minister has taken a very direct interest in improving the research capabilities of the sector and is giving attention to Onderstepoort. In fact, he has already visited it and I believe will be providing some funding in order to enhance its research capabilities. We are involved in a number of bilateral joint initiatives as the Department of Science and Technology and the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and I am sure we are going to see new life in the research facilities of agriculture.
QUESTION 228
QUESTIONS 217
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Question 228:
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Thank you again, Chairperson. This is Question 228 that I am responding to. I wish to report that, with respect to employees at the Square Kilometre Array, SKA, project, we employ 18 astronomers: Twelve of the 18 are South African citizens; and six out of the 18 are foreign nationals who are all senior scientists. Several of them have indicated that they wish to spend a very long time working in South Africa due to excitement about the project.
We also employ many other South African scientists as well as engineers as part of the engineering team. All the infrastructure, design and development teams are led by a South African scientists and engineers.
With respect to bursaries, thus far we have awarded 612 grants and bursaries for postdoctoral fellows, postgraduate students at masters and honours level and undergraduate students pursuing science, engineering and technical degrees. All of these bursaries are honoured at mainstream universities as well as universities of technology in South Africa.
We have also funded 300 students to follow artisan courses so that we have technologists to work on the big projects. Four hundred and fifteen of the students who are currently supported out of the 612 are South Africans. A hundred and fourteen are from the rest of the African continent, and 46 are from outside Africa.
Of the South African students supported, over 57% are black students. The bursary support programme will be continued with the intention of attracting more black candidates to study to work on the programme. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Minister. The hon Mokoena is not in the House. I do not see anybody standing up to take his space. Is there any other member who wishes to make a follow-up? None!
Minister, we proceed to Question 233. Again, I must point out, hon Minister, that hon Matebus is also not in the House. I have just been reacquainting myself with the Rules: Rule 246 (1)(5) says if a member does not rise for the question for oral reply, ending in that member’s name, that question lapses, unless the person who is to reply to the question elects to reply.
Usually members make arrangements within their parties and that is why we have somebody standing. So, there is no Mr Mokoena; there is no Mr Matebus. There is, however, Mr Vawda. I do not know if Mr Vawda has been thoroughly briefed to deal with this question. But, let me give you the opportunity, Minister.
QUESTION 233
QUESTION 228
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Question 233:
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, the answer is a very long one, but I do think it is an important response. I would want to begin by saying that government does not have individual departmental industrial plans. Our plans emanate from government-agreed documents such as the Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap, as well as the National Development Plan, NDP.
The Ipap is co-ordinated by the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, and several departments play a role in executing the key objectives of Ipap. As Science and Technology, we respond to three key development opportunities in the Industrial Policy Action Plan, which, interestingly, are also mirrored in the National Development Plan. These are: Building new industries; improving the competitiveness of existing industry through using technology; and providing technology support to small and medium enterprises.
In the area of new industry, we of course really initiate a lot of research in a range of domains. With respect to this particular year, we are focused on advancing our portfolio projects, including projects focused on the production of titanium metal powder, biotechnology-based products, the development of nanotechnology-based products, the development of hydrogen fuel cells for renewable energy sources, ICT-based opportunities and other advanced materials processes.
In terms of competitiveness, we are working hard to put partnership initiatives in place with the intention of working with industry associations to enhance the competitiveness of South Africa, such as the fresh produce export we are doing through the CSIR which is linked to the citrus industry in South Africa; our work in aquaculture with the fishery nurseries; working in forestry materials; as well as the boat-building industry.
We also have a particular focus on technology capability development for manufacturing companies which are potential suppliers for big government procurement projects, such as the energy build of government, as well as the Meerkat and Square Kilometre Array projects.
Finally, with respect to strengthening the industry, we are also providing funding for technology stations which are located in universities of technology and mainstream universities across the country. They support technology for institutions that are small and medium-sized enterprises which cannot always afford to buy modern technology for their product development work. So, these technology stations are a resource for small business to access in order to enhance their capabilities.
Further details can be found in the Ipap document, in the National Development Plan, in the annual report of Science and Technology and especially in the reports of the Technology Innovation Agency, TIA, our National Intellectual Property Management Office, Nipmo, annual report, our Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, and the annual report of the SA National Space Agency, Sansa. They are the most industry-focused of our entities and provide very valuable information. Thank you.
Dr Y C VAWDA
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
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Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I greet all of you with As-salaamu-alai-kum. I would like to ask the hon Minister: How will the present approach of her department relate to and how is it going to support the economic development programmes into the future, as envisaged by the Department of Economic Development? Is there a correlation between the two? Is what is being done today relevant, especially in the universities and technical colleges, etc?
We do not want to arrive at a situation, in a few years’ time, where we find that we have economic development programmes in place but because of a lack vision or foresight, we do not have the adequate human resource capacity or other capacities to support these economic development programmes. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Yes, certainly, hon Vawda, our interventions are directed at ensuring that in so far as is possible, because it is not an exact science predicting what skills we need, as South Africa we have to do much more in terms of ensuring that we have high-skilled knowledge workers in our society.
This is why we have a vigorous human capital development programme that invests in training young people in the high skills domains of ICT or the sciences - I have made reference to engineering as well as technology - because we are focused on ensuring that we have young people who will increasingly be absorbed into South Africa as it becomes a knowledge-based economy. This is our intention.
That is why, for example, with an initiative like the Square Kilometre Array, which is not just a South African initiative but a global infrastructure initiative, we have sought to ensure that we address both higher level skills, but also the technologists, through the FET colleges, who will provide the technical support to the high-skills teams working on the engineering and ICT platforms.
So, we are certainly very directly linked to South Africa’s economic ambitions and particularly resolute as a department to move South Africa toward becoming a knowledge-based society. Thank you very much.
QUESTION 210
QUESTION 223
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Question 210:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chairperson, since 2013, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries has invested a total of R26 250 819,52 for students studying for various degrees within the identified scarce skills categories through external bursary schemes. In terms of the experiential training internship and professional development programme the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries has invested R32 247 879,99.
In the 2013 academic year, 316 students were awarded bursaries to further their studies within the identified scarce skills categories. Of this 316 a number of 167 students were existing bursary holders and R15,5 million was spent in the 2013 academic year. In the 2014 academic year, 280 students were awarded bursaries to further their studies within the identified scarce skills categories. Of this 280 a number of 133 are existing bursary holders and R10 800 884 was paid until October - that is before the end of the academic year.
In the 2013-14 financial year, 285 qualified unemployed graduates were placed in the department and agricultural commodity organisations and we paid R18 496 135,31 for placing them there. That is the money that was spent for placing them.
In the 2014-15 financial year, 288 students qualified unemployed graduates were placed in the department and agricultural commodity organisations and we paid R13 751 744,28. That’s the money that was paid until October. As we know, the calendar year has not finished yet, but that’s the money that we have paid. Thank you, hon Chair.
Ms E PRINS
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
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Ms E PRINS: Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, thank you for the answer. Hon Deputy Minister, can you please indicate whether the department has a plan in place to place these students after they have completed their training?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chair and hon member, we have a wide field of students that we produce. There are scarce skills and skills that will be ordinary out there. One of the scarce skills and where we would know where students are; are veterinarians, vets. We have about 3 500 vets in the Republic of South Africa. Unfortunately, only 257 are within the employ of the state and others are private - though produced by government, they go private. Medical care for your dog might be more expensive than for yourself. Somebody was telling me that their dog was operated on for R46 000. It’s a facility that we need, and as a government we don’t mind contributing to the nation, though they don’t stay within the government space most of the time.
We absorb them all at that level because it’s a very scarce skill. But also agricultural engineers, we absorb them all, but there’ll be those that will go out and be independent out there. We are, as the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, creating a tracking mechanism so that even if they’re not within the government employment we know where they are and we know what they do where. That’s what we’re developing at the present moment. Thank you.
Mr M RAYI
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr M RAYI: Hon Chairperson, my supplementary question is exactly on the point that the hon Deputy Minister was responding to. But I want to emphasise my question of making an example about the Department of Health when they give out bursaries, their contractual obligation that they enter into with the doctors that for a particular period they will be working for the department. Whether there are any similar plans in the department where you issue these bursaries and then have a contractual obligation with those recipients so that for a particular period they work for the department and these entities. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chair, yes, with the scarce skills we do have those contractual obligations. The moment they expire, they get out of the system - especially the vets, engineers and the extension officers. The extension officers are quite necessary, because they are helping the upcoming and small farmers, so it is important that they are always there. But once they finish their contractual obligations, they themselves vanish.
Mr M KHAWULA
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy Minister, in respect of the extension officers, is the department observing any profitable outcomes in terms of food security, especially when you look at land utilisation in the rural areas for people to be able to sustain themselves in utilising land through the extension officers? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, we would have loved to maximise those outputs where we make the inputs, but one must admit that maybe it is not so at the present moment. It is underscored that the Minister has already led the discussion within the department of how to maximise the utilisation of the extension officers. Sometimes it’s where they are based; you might find that the extension officer is not in the midst of the rural farming community, but that he lives in the city centre. This makes it difficult if there is an immediate problem for those farmers at that particular time to be called in. So these are the things that we are looking at. How do we place them in the middle of the communities that they are supposed to be serving, especially with animal husbandry where you find they should be given immediate and urgent assistance?
But more so, the problem is the same with them that they’re highly absorbed by the private people. So those are the things that we are trying to work on, but also to have exchange programmes and working together with those who have moved to the private sectors - if they’re there – then as government how do we work together? The matter has been looked at and we’re trying to resolve it in order to maximise this.
Mnu L B GAEHLER
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
IsiXhosa:
Mnu L B GAEHLER: Enkosi Sekela Mphathiswa. Kuza kulunga ukuba ndithethe ngesiXhosa ukuze ndiyibeke kakuhle le nto. Enye yeengxaki eninazo zii-extension officers ingakumbi phaya ezilalini. Umbuzo wokuqala uthi kwaba bafana naba sisi baphuma ezikholejini ingaba bakhona kusini na abazii-extension officers? Okwesibini, abantwana bethu abakufuni ukuphangela ezilalini. Lithini icebo eninalo ukuze bancede abantu kuba abantu abahluphekayo basezilalini? Okokugqibela, ingaba bakhona kusini na kwaba bantwana abafunde izifundo ezingeelwandle, kuba sisakhono esinqabileyo eso? Ukuba abekho, zeziphi iinzame enizenzayo ukuba babekho kwezi kholeji? Enkosi.
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I don’t think I got the first question.
Mr L B GAEHLER: The first one is that there is a shortage of extension officers, especially in rural areas. Are there any of the students who are doing extensions? Secondly, most of our youth don’t want to go to the villages. What plans then do you have as a department to entice them to go to the villages? Because poverty is most rife there. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the National Development Plan calls on agriculture to produce a million jobs. When we speak in the department, we don’t talk about 2030, we talk about the next 15 years, which is much shorter than 2030. When you say 15 years it becomes shorter and you realise that it’s quicker to produce those million jobs. But it’s not only that, the instruction is that you should absorb young people within those million jobs. It is on that score that this department is working hard to encourage and agitate the youth to be a part of agriculture, starting from the school but not only that, also becoming part of the family of agriculture in terms of working in the land and all those things.
We must say that we have been quite amazed how the youth have opened themselves to the agricultural programmes wanting to be part of the farming community and all those. Yes, there are lots of young people coming on board. That question has an immediate problem in the second part - do they want to be in the rural areas? The answer is, the nature of young people is to want to be in the bright cities - out there in the cities. Unfortunately, you farm nothing there. For them to have that contradiction is that agriculture must work hard to make sure that they realise that they’ll have to be in the rural areas, they’ll have to produce food, but also they’re working towards formulating agrivillages so that, young as they are, they don’t lose their youth as they go to the rural areas. They must be still young and they must still do things that young people do there and create facilities that will attract them to the rural areas to work there. We’re trying very hard to make sure that they get attracted to where farming is taking place in rural areas.
Regarding the aquaculture that he speaks about, we must remember that this is the new kid on the block –aquaculture per se. But we have gone there with Operation Phakisa, which the President has been leading, and agriculture there is supposed to be big and create 167 000 jobs in agriculture alone. The whole Operation Phakisa will have to move from R77 billion to R167 billion and a big portion has to be agriculture on the aquaculture - both fresh water and marine. Indeed, as far as scarce skills go, we’re going to make sure that it is fashionable for young people to plough and plant and fish. So we hope that we won’t have a problem of young people getting trained there and running away, but we are working hard to make them come on board when it comes to aquaculture.
QUESTION 225
QUESTION 210
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Question 225:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chairperson, the department will continue supporting fish farming which is currently being based on suitable technology, markets and environmental conditions. Research is also under way to explore new species, but this may take time to be ready for commercial farming. The research will involve fish biology, reproduction, breeding, nutrition, genetics and production systems.
Currently, there are eight recorded freshwater species farmed in South Africa. I will mention here the common name which people would know, the scientific name as well as the kind of operation. Freshwater aqua species farmed in South Africa in the operational status would be the following: rainbow trout which is its common name and the scientific name is the Oncorhynchus mykiss, which is farmed on a commercial scale. There is the brown trout, which is its common name and its scientific name is Salmo trutta. The other one is the Mozambique tilapia, which is its common name and its scientific name is the Oreochromis mossambicus ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are they edible with such difficult names, Deputy Minister? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: ... that is on commercial farming. The other one is the Nile tilapia, which is its common name and its scientific name is Oreochromis niloticus, which is on commercial farming. Then there is the African sharptooth or catfish, which is its common name and its scientific name is Clarias garipinus. This one is in the pilot scale; it is not yet produced on a commercial scale. There is the common carp, which is its common name and its scientific name is Cyprinus carpio. This one is farmed on a commercial scale. There is the Marron which is its common name; this is a freshwater crayfish and its scientific name is the Cherax tenuimanus, which is also in commercial production.
It is important that the members know that these are farmed in all provinces. [Interjections.] Yes, they are farmed in all provinces. For instance, tilapia is farmed in two places in the Eastern Cape, there is one in the Free State, 11 in Gauteng, five in KwaZulu-Natal, 13 in Limpopo, 20 in Mpumalanga - these are operations - three in the Northern Cape, eight in the North West and two in the Western Cape. Maybe the reason why the Western Cape has two operations is because it is big in marine fishing and it may not be encouraged to deal with freshwater production.
With trout farming, we have three operations in the Eastern Cape, zero in the Free State, zero in Gauteng, five in KwaZulu-Natal ... [Interjections.] It is not the fish which is zero, but the operations. [Laughter.] It is not that one can’t find trout in these provinces. One would still find trout and others are natural and so on, but there are no operations looking after these species.
Then there is catfish which is the one in the pilot level. There is one catfish pilot operation in the Eastern Cape, three in the Free State, one in Gauteng, zero in KwaZulu-Natal, three in Limpopo, zero in Mpumalanga, one in the Northern Cape, one in the North West and zero in the Western Cape.
With regard to crayfish operations, there is one operation in the Eastern Cape and the rest will be zero. This crayfish operation is only in the Eastern Cape for now. At the present moment, the total number of all these fish farming operations in the country is 161. So that is the response on aquaculture farming, Chairperson.
Mr C F B SMIT
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
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Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, Minister has the department considered the viability of breeding kurpers and silver catfish or mackerel as a cost-effective and popular food source for inland communities? If not, why not? If so, what does the research conducted to date suggest?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, this question has been answered in my previous response. In the first paragraph where I said the research is taking place and will involve fish biology, reproduction, breeding, nutrition, genetics and production systems. We don’t have to do research to establish that fish has a lot of nutrition; that’s natural, that’s logical. So, to give our people balanced nutrition, we will have to encourage them to have fish.
One thing that has been discovered by research is that inland people are not big on eating fish. So, that is one thing that we have to encourage; that they start eating fish because it is a highly balanced kind of food. We are not only doing research, at a certain given point there will be more fish produced; all kinds of fish.
Our people will need markets in that regard. Even at that level we are beginning to deal with the research of how they are going to be helped at the time when they need markets going forward. But, for now our concern is nutrition. For the freshwater fish that he mentioned the research is ongoing. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Including mackerel; the particular species he referred to is makriel. He referred to mackerel. With us, it’s all fish! But, hon Smit says it’s makriel. I don’t know how to pronounce it ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: What kind of fish were you referring to?
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, I was specifically referring to the kurper and the silver catfish, which is also called makriel.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, yes the carp is not part of that list, but the catfish is what I gave here, and I said it is still at the pilot level. So, it is here on the list, but it’s on a pilot scale.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What I do seem to get - to cut the dialogue - from hon Smit is that he is looking at a particular type of catfish which is not necessarily the one that the Deputy Minister is talking about. I think we must agree that these fish have very big and complicated names to pronounce. Perhaps we should be saying that those that are not there, maybe at a later stage, the department can come back to us, as to whether as part of the investigations and research will be ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: No, they are here ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: They are all there?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: There is a catfish here, unless there are bigger and smaller cats! [Laughter.] But, there is catfish, which is on a pilot scale. [Interjections.] Yes, on the list ... the carp is not part of it. But we know, and we are also developing the science and the research on the carp freshwater fish. But the cat is here! [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit, we must accept that there is a cat amongst these fish. [Laughter.]
Mr C F B SMIT: I just want to respond to what you have just said, hon Chairperson. We accept that the Minister is still learning with regard to some fish!
Mnu S G MTHIMUNYE
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Mr C F B SMIT
IsiZulu:
Mnu S G MTHIMUNYE: Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngithi angibuze lapha kumhlonishwa uNdosi ukuthi akhona yini amagama esintu alab’ofishi ngoba uma engekho impela abantu bakithi ngeke bangene kuleli bhizinisi?
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: The member should appreciate that we are learning fast. The question of the vernacular names of these fish - the scientists are there; most of them are seated there. The deputy director-general who deals with fisheries is seated there. Maybe in their research they will have to work on the vernacular names, which means each fish will have to have 11 names, because there are 11 official languages. [Laughter.] We are not going to get a Xhosa or a Sotho name, but each fish here will have to have 11 names plus the scientific name, which means 12 names per fish. [Laughter.]
Dr Y C VAWDA
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Dr Y C VAWDA: Chair, in the light of the discussions that have been taking place regarding fish farming, we were recently in the Northern Cape in Upington on an oversight visit. We saw a lot of solar energy projects and a lot of grape farming, vineyards and very little else taking place. I was just wondering whether the department or any other department has intentions of establishing fish farming along the Orange River which meanders beautifully across that part of the world? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, in the Northern Cape, as we speak, we have five farming operations taking place there. Most of these operations will be private or also sponsored and paid for by the provinces. But, at national level, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries will pay through the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, Casp. What has been happening is that that money goes to provinces and provinces see to it. But we are trying to work together to highlight some projects and to prioritise these projects. Through Operation Phakisa we can go big on aquaculture farming, I think it is one thing that we will be encouraging to provinces. So, we will do what the hon member is suggesting. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, I would like to know from the hon Minister what type of support is the department offering aquaculture farmers to protect the 12 named fish, especially the freshwater fish, from algae and fungal infections?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chair, the hon member would be aware that departments sometimes work in an integrated way. So, the areas that she is speaking about will basically fall under Environmental Affairs, looking at water cleanliness and that it’s not infected. But together we will make sure that we take South Africa forward by keeping our fish safe.
If I’m not mistaken, they will remind me, we have no more than five fish doctors at the present moment. So, if we are going into aqua farming, we will have to increase on that scale and work with the Department of Environmental Affairs in order to make sure that the water is fresh. But, also work with the Department of Water and Sanitation in terms of keeping water clean and making sure that foreign things do not contaminate our water. That is why I spoke about systems of fish farming: keeping food fish balanced; keeping oxygen balanced; and all other nutrition that the fish need before those nutrients are passed to us. So we will be working together with other departments to make sure that the aquaculture farming grows. Thank you.
QUESTION 226
QUESTION 225
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Question 226:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the Amathole Forestry Company, AFC, is a Level 4 Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, BBBEE, contributor which entered into a long-term forestry lease agreement with the department in 2005 for a period of seventy years, covering an area of 15 000 hectares of pine plantations.
The value of lease agreement was determined in 1999 and is escalated annually using 65% of the average year-on-year production price index, as published by Statistics SA and reviewed every five years in terms of lease agreements. The average rental paid for the Amathole Forestry Company for the past nine years has amounted to R1,8 million per annum.
At present, an amount of R24 million has been collected with regard to the rental since 2005 and will be dispersed to the communities once the rightful owners have been identified through the land reform process. As you are aware, the process is facilitated by the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, with support from the department in mobilising the affected communities.
It is also worth mentioning that the company directly employs 359 people and a further 1 487 through its various subsidiaries in the forestry and agricultural sector, the majority of whom are drawn from the local communities.
On question two, the White Paper in the forestry development of 1988 introduced a paradigm of sustainable forest management founded on constitutionally sound principles to ensure the participation and empowerment of communities affected by forestry operations.
The following principles underscore the White Paper: The need to promote a thriving forestry sector that promotes and facilitates commercial competitiveness; the need to stimulate investment in local and export wood processing industries; the promotion of black economic empowerment; the realisation of rural development; and the stimulation of local job opportunities and participatory processes involving previously disadvantaged communities, taking into account their rights and aspirations.
To this end, the processes of continued interactions between the company and the communities supported by the government, including the processing of land claims and formalisation of informal land rights, are concrete measures to ensure the mainstreaming of community rights and interests in the sustainable forest management practices.
Some of the measures include the fact that access by local communities to the plantation managed by the forestry companies is granted on a continuous basis as per section 19 of the National Forest Act, Act 84 of 1998. This is granted for different activities such as the collection of firewood, mushrooms, honey harvesting, medical plants, fruits, pine tree tops, thatching grass, weaving grass, drawing water from rivers and streams and grazing by livestock on the old compartments. They also have access to any other forest produce for domestic use as well as access for spiritual and health purposes without a licence or any fee charged.
It is also worth noting that the land claims and land reform processes are also on course, even though none of the claims related to the AFC long-term forestry lease agreements have been settled as yet. Nonetheless, the department continually monitors the relationship that the company has with surrounding communities through meetings and sites visits, especially through the projects that the company is involved in for community empowerment and local economic development.
To illustrate the structure of the current beneficiation arrangement, the shareholding structure is depicted hereunder: Faranani investments owns 63%; 8,4% is owned by workers through the Amathole Workers’ Trust; 12,6% is owned by Amathole Community Holdings; and 16% is owned by government through SA Forestry Company, Safcol. That will be the answer.
Mr V E MTILENI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
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Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Deputy Minister, the companies that get these leases from the state get them at incredibly ridiculous prices. They have on their boards senior ANC members, some of whom threaten people with guns, here in this Parliament. These companies were given not just forests but also state machinery and houses for ridiculous amounts. Is this practice not a promotion of kleptocracy and lawlessness with impunity? Why is the department struggling to give many local farmers support to farm in the area of Keiskammahoek? They are only too eager to support capitalists and their ANC lackeys. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chairperson - lackeys will try - let me try and give the structure of forestry so that next time we will understand what question to ask regarding forestry. He is asking the question to the wrong person.
Forestry is administered by five government departments. It is the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, that is us ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, just face me.
IsiZulu:
Myeke mfowethu; wena khulumela embhobhweni. [Uhleko.]
IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZEMVELO, AMAHLATHI NEZOKUDOBA:
Uma ngimfulathele ngibona sengathi akangizwa. Ngibona sengathi akangizwa uma ngimfulathele. [Uhleko.]
English:
These departments are Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries; the Department of Public Works; Public Enterprises; Rural Development and Land Reform; and the Department of Trade and Industry. Forestry falls under that. As a department, we look at the agricultural perspective from government, but some of these forests are on the land that belongs to government and all government property falls under Public Works.
This land that is unclaimed will be given to the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform and the business portion of it reports to Safcol, while Safcol reports to Public Enterprise. The Department of Trade and Industry discusses and determines the business models. That is how it is run.
As you deal with why Agriculture is not helping – if Agriculture is not helping - it might happen that it will have to co-ordinate for them to be assisted because when the forest is harvested, it must be harvested in a certain format so that we allow the land to recoup and rehabilitate and work on the land before replanting. Maybe the question should not be directed to the lackeys, but to the government, so that we can help people with an understanding, because lackeys can’t help much. But the government will really help and say that this is a specific community, this is a specific problem, let’s all come together and work together with the communities to make their lives better. Thank you.
Mr L B GAEHLER
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr L B GAEHLER: Madam, no, no, Deputy Minister, one understands that there are different departments, but some of these forests have been claimed by claimants, especially if you go to the former TBVC states - Cwebe, Dwesa, Langeni and all those. The problem here then is that the money that is paid for rental is paid into a community trust which is managed by members of the trust but that money does not go to the beneficiaries. What one would like to know is: What mechanism have you got to monitor that the money goes to the real beneficiaries? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: It’s true. As the hon member says, it has been claimed but not yet granted. The money is kept in a trust because it is waiting for its rightful owners. Unless and until we say that these are the rightful owners, we are not going to give anyone the money. We leave the process of claiming to the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform to decide on the rightful owners so those monies could be paid to them. We will not pay it to claimants who might end up not winning. We won’t be able to collect that money from them to give it to the rightful owners.
QUESTION 214
QUESTION 226
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Question 214:
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, the dispute related to a contractual obligation that was not honoured by a service provider called Solar Spectrum Trading 54 that was trading as Uhuru Publishing, in terms of generating revenue for selling of advertising space and distribution of the public sector magazine. The agreement was entered into between the former Government Communications and Information Systems, GCIS, and stipulated that the service provider would pay GCIS a share of the revenue generated through the selling of advertising space in the magazine.
This was a three-year contract that started on 8 April 2011, and it had since expired on 7 April 2014. At the end of the 2013-14 financial year, three payments to the total value of R204 725 were received from the service provider out of the R6,7 million remaining, with an adjusted outstanding of R6,5 million. The department has a formal debt collection policy in place and is currently pursuing a recovery plan to collect the revenue as it was due to the former GCIS in terms of the contractual agreement.
Nevertheless, we will also ensure that there is remedial action for those officials who could be found having failed to exercise due diligence in contract management. I thank you.
Ms E PRINS
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The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS
Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the response. Hon Minister, did GCIS ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Prins, please come closer to the microphone.
Ms E PRINS: I am very small, Chair. [Laughter.] Hon Minister, did GCIS have a signed contract with the service provider, and has the Minister put in place measures to strengthen her department’s internal controls, especially on procurement processes, so as to ensure that a similar incident does not occur in future?
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson and hon member, yes, a three-year contract was signed with the supplier on 7 April 2011 which had a termination clause that stipulated that, in case of changes in government procedures or unsatisfactory service, the department was entitled to terminate the contract.
As I indicated earlier, the department has a debt recovery strategy which is being implemented. Then, I also indicated that was a three-year contract, and it was only discovered at the end – at the expiry of the contract. We are busy looking at the matter together with National Treasury and the Auditor-General to ascertain whether there are officials who should be held responsible for not implementing the contract as agreed. Then there will be remedial action. More so, there are policies in place that have to be implemented. I thank you.
Mr V E MTILENI
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The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS
Mr V E MTILENI: Chairperson, I would like to find out if any of those found to be on the wrong side of the law involved in fraudulent activities are ANC members, will they face the might of the law or will they simply be shipped from one department to another? Because this is the kind of ills we face in this government.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Mtileni. The Minister must respond to this when she deals with the employees of her department and not the employees of Luthuli House. If they are employees of the ANC, she is not competent to answer. If she is going to answer, it will be in relation to the employees who the member says he extrapolates from your previous response are people who are doing wrong and don’t suffer the consequences. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, the Public Service has the Disciplinary Code and Procedures that must be followed. As I indicated earlier, should we find out during the investigation process that there were officials who failed to exercise due diligence in doing the contract management, we will follow that Disciplinary Code and Procedures for the public servant. It does not see any colour; it just has to be complied with, as it is the Disciplinary Code and Procedures for public servants.
Mr M KHAWULA
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS
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Mr M KHAWULA: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Minister. I do not know whether I heard the hon Minister correctly in that the contract ran for three years and that right towards the end of the contractual period this irregularity was sort of detected. Don’t you find that strange, Minister, that a contract would run for three years and at the exit point you ... I know it was not during your time – but you have inherited it. You inherit everything – good and bad. Don’t you find that strange that it ran for three years and only towards its exit point something wrong is detected?
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, I think the follow-up question by hon Prins was trying to address what the hon member
just raised now, and we responded to that question by saying that, together with National Treasury and the Auditor-General, we are looking at that contract. Should we find that there were officials who didn’t exercise due diligence in contract management, we will apply the Disciplinary Code and Procedures for public servants.
QUESTION 215
QUESTION 214 - The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS
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Question 215:
Ms E PRINS: Chairperson, I respectfully request that Question 215 on the Question Paper be withdrawn due to a typing error in the question that relates to the amount of R2,8 million, which is not the correct amount. I will resubmit the question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Ma’am. Hon members, Question 215 has been withdrawn. The member says that she will resubmit the question. We move on to Question 232, as asked by hon Vawda.
QUESTION 232
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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Question 232:
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you, hon Chairperson, and thank you hon member for asking the question. The department believes in the independence of the media as well as editorial independence. Government, like all other public and private-sector entities, commissions programmes and documentaries on television and other media platforms in order to inform the general public about its programmes of action and implementation.
In doing so, government always fully complies with the editorial decisions of media institutions. It is also our considered view that government can commission its work to any media house and it also pays for advertising space in terms of the rates applicable to all public and private entities.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Chairperson, we would like to determine from the hon Minister how this actually came about? Was it initiated by the department or was it initiated by eNews Channel Africa, eNCA? What discussions transpired during the process; and can the Minister give us an idea as to what the details of these discussions were, especially with regard to the content of programmes and that type of issue? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Hon Chair, we have not received a formal complaint for the media reports that we have seen. However, we are indeed of the view that if e.tv feels that they have been strong-armed to bend their editorial discretion, then they must raise the matter formally with the Independent Communications Authority of SA, Icasa, and provide evidence. We believe that Icasa will then be able to act accordingly. Thank you.
Mr C F B SMIT
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The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chairperson, given the Minister’s answer that in principle it is not ethical for government to interfere with the independence of broadcasting houses, would the Minister please explain what measures she has in place to ensure the independence of the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC; and in particular whether it is appropriate for a politically well-connected person such as Ellen Tshabalala to serve as the chairperson of the SABC?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Smit, the question is whether, in the light of the alleged funding of e.tv by the Department of Economic ... The question has nothing to do with the SABC or its board. I do understand that the hon member was taking a chance. [Laughter.] Minister, you are at liberty to choose whether to answer this question, but it is a completely different question and not a supplementary question.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: I agree with you, hon Chairperson, but I think I need to emphasise that the public broadcaster has a mandate to inform and educate the nation. As government, we respect the constitutional right of freedom of speech as it is enshrined in the Constitution, and that includes the freedom of the media. We won’t interfere in the affairs of any broadcaster.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we have been informed that both the Minister and Deputy Minister of Environmental Affairs have sent their apologies and have not made any arrangements with any other Minister, thereby leaving the only option for their questions to be for written response. We will follow up as to the reasons why both the Minister and Deputy Minister did not make the adequate arrangements. We have spoken about this in the House, so we will follow up on it.
Mr J J LONDT
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Mr J J LONDT: Sorry Chair, but this was a scheduled session. If a Minister or Deputy Minister doesn’t attend and they don’t make any alternative arrangements, are we going to ensure that those Ministers come back to this House at a later stage to answer the questions that they were supposed to answer?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, sir. We will follow the processes that we have. If both Minister and Deputy Minister are unable to make it, they make arrangements with their colleagues in Cabinet. If they are unable to, they do submit to us. Of course, the first option that they have is for the questions to be converted into written responses. However, we will and we have been following up on the Ministers, and that is what I have told the House. We will follow up and find out why the Minister and Deputy Minister did not come. I think this is as far we can take it today, hon Londt. We will follow up and report back to the House.
QUESTION 218
QUESTION 232
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Question 218:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, it is actually very difficult to determine the number of illegal miners since illegal mining involves criminal activities with the location and modus operandi constantly changing as government and other relevant stakeholders are implementing measures to eradicate illicit operations. However, just to give a perspective in terms of the quantum, according to a 2007 study, it was estimated that illegal activities result in a loss of about 10% of the total gold produced by the sector annually; which aas then valued at about R5,6 billion of gold stolen and smuggled out of the country.
Reports indicate that the recent escalation in illegal mining is also as a result of local and global crime syndicates taking advantage of increasing numbers of desperate people, mainly from neighbouring countries, who are willing to risk their lives by being involved in these activities. These syndicates arrange weapons and hit men to kill rival gangs. As a result several deaths have been reported and law enforcement agencies and government officials’ lives have been put at risk. In addition, the syndicates organise illegal miners to force their way into old underground workings which have been sealed by the government and the mines by digging around concrete seals or by blasting them away with stolen explosives.
It is against that background that the Department of Mineral Resources established illegal mining stakeholder forums in Mpumalanga, Free State, Gauteng and Northern Cape province for the purpose of continuously identifying and sealing open shafts and other openings as well as conducting operations to combat illegal mining.
The illegal mining stakeholders’ forum meets once a month. It comprises, amongst others, the Department of Mineral Resources, National Prosecuting Authority, the SA Police Service, the Council for Geosciences, the Mine Health and Safety Council, municipalities, mining companies and organised labour.
The Justice Crime Prevention and Security cluster, which is the Cabinet committee, also directed that relevant departments be brought on board. This led to the establishment of the multiagency national co-ordinating strategic management team. This team is currently implementing a strategy to address problems associated with illegal mining.
If I may continue, the following are some of the key achievements since the establishment of this team, the national co-ordinating strategic management team and the stakeholder forum: The Department of Mineral Resources and the Council for Geosciences have successfully closed a number of open shafts or open holes; they have also identified areas with gold bearing material which were mined successfully in areas that experienced illegal mining activities; access control at some mines has improved, amongst others, the introduction of biometric systems; and there is now frequent vetting of security personnel at the mines. Law enforcement agencies have conducted successful disruptions of this operations, raids and arrests – a mine manager was arrested after he was allegedly found in possession of 1,3 kg of gold believed to have been 80% pure and worth about R0,5 million; a total of 20 employees were arrested for gold theft at one of the major gold mines - it is believed that those employees are part of a syndicate; recently, the SAPS arrested diamond syndicate members who were mainly operating in the Northern Cape; a total of 18 police officials were arrested in the Free State for being involved in illegal mining activities; and a court order has also been grated for the Asset Forfeiture Unit authority to confiscate R6,2 million worth of assets held by members of an unwrought gold syndicate.
As a way forward the department will continue to collaborate with the relevant law enforcement agencies and social partners to ensure that there is a national strategy to co-ordinate and combat illegal mining. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The hon Smit is Ms Masango for today.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr C F B SMIT: Yes, on her behalf. Hon chairperson, I would like to know from the Minister which other stakeholders are actively involved in eradicating the illegal mining activities?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, the stakeholders that I have listed here are the ones, but there are also – I can just repeat them if the member did not get them properly. However, they include the Department of Mineral Resources, the National Prosecuting Authority, the SAPS, the Council for Geosciences, the Mine Health and Safety Council, the municipalities, various companies where this is taking place, and organised labour.
Over and above that I have included that we have got a multiagency national co-ordinating strategic management team that involves also, at some stages, the Department of Defence where necessary. These are the stake holders that I have mentioned. We are also looking into a strategy that can deal with this matter very decisively. As I have indicated to you, hon member, this matter is syndicated with very sophisticated syndicates, both in South Africa and abroad. So, at this platform we cannot disclose all the details of how we are dealing with this, because this information is in the public domain. Thank you very much.
Mr M KHAWULA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
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Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, in respect of the illegal or improper sand mining, what will be the proper steps that have to be taken? I have a community - the Minister next to you knows the area along the Umzumbe River - where the three of us come from – who are being harassed by those who claim to have licences to mine sand. The matter has been reported to the police, but no steps have been taken. Now they are looking for other steps to say it has to be corrected. So, what will those steps be? It has been reported that no steps were taken. We now need the intervention of someone from your department. It will have to be in those areas that we have looked into. If the hon Deputy Minister would like to come to the area to see what is happening, the community is open to that. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, I think we can liaise with the member to get the details and we will certainly follow up, because in all provinces we do have the presence of offices of the Department of Mineral Resources. So, if we get that as soon as possible, we can dispatch the officials to take care of that matter and report back to us and we can attend to that matter. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The broader question was, what is the department doing when communities are being undermined or harassed?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, because it is a broad question, we don’t deal with the same communities. There are other matters; we deal with them as and when they arrive. In this instance, because we don’t have all the details, since he was specific about the community, it is important that we get the details before we apply a blanket approach.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Khawula, the Deputy Minister has undertaken to send a fact-finding team which will then respond to the communities.
Mr M RAYI
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr M RAYI: Hon Chairperson, we would like to commend the department on the number of arrests that have taken place. However, my question is on the conviction rate - if the Deputy Minister can respond to that.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: In the initial stages of arresting these people the charges were not very firm, so the conviction rate was very low. Since we have been engaged with the police in all these matters and have people in possession of the material and the gold itself, the conviction rate has increased. At this stage, because there are still ongoing cases, I am unable to give the statistics. Thank you very much.
Mr V E MTILENI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
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Mr V E MTILENI: I rise to ask about the 34 miners killed in Marikana. How many were legal and how many were illegal? How many were legal and how many were illegal?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, please repeat your question!
Mr V E MTILENI: What I am saying is, of the 34 miners killed in Marikana, how many of them were legal and how many were illegal?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I thought I did not understand you. Hon Deputy Minister, do you want to respond to that question? The question is unrelated to the illegal mining which is the principal question posed to you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, we would advise the members to be patient and wait for the processes that are taking place to be concluded. There is a Farlam Commission of Inquiry taking place and we are all waiting for that report.
Afrikaans:
Om nou so haastig te wees is nie lekker nie.
So, I will advise the member to be patient and not just rush issues that are not concluded. Thank you very much.
QUESTION 234
QUESTION 218
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Question 234:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Chairperson, the department is aware of allegations about transfer pricing. Accordingly, engagements have taken place and continue to take place with the other relevant and competent institutions such as the National Treasury. As stated earlier, there are a number of allegations that have been made about this matter. However, those allegations that have been brought to our attention do not contain comprehensive quantification of the extent of these phenomena.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda is standing in for the hon Mathys today.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Chair, I ... [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are protected, hon Vawda.
Dr Y C VAWDA: Thank you, Chair. I listened with some concern, hon Minister, and also with great sadness to the discussion a few minutes ago on the so-called illegal mining, and not for one moment do I wish to condone crime, but I think that we need to have empathy for the situation in this country. Hon Minister ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Vawda, it is within your two minutes, but please come back to the question and follow-up, as posed by the hon Mathys. You are rising on that question.
Dr Y C VAWDA: I’m doing so right now, hon Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, sir!
Dr Y C VAWDA: The Automotive Industry Development Centre, AIDC’s report titled: The Bermuda Connection: Profit Shifting and Unaffordability at Lonmin, found that the R2,3 billion Lonmin transferred to Bermuda subsidiaries could have paid up 72% of the R12 500 a month the rock drillers were demanding in Marikana.
The report further found that between 2008 and 2012, $162 million was paid in commissions to Western Metal Sales. What we would like to know, hon Minister, is: Does the department believe that the demand by mineworkers for the minimum R12 500 salary is reasonable; and does the government have plans to realise this? Also, hon Deputy Minister, if the findings of the AIDC are found to be correct, what will the government do and what kind of penalties will be instituted? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Hon Chairperson, when it comes to decent wages for mineworkers we all subscribe to that, but at this stage, because the question of mineworkers in that situation was subjected to collective bargaining, we respected the outcome of that collective bargaining processes. I must also say that at some stage we got involved as the Department of Mineral Resources to try and facilitate the conclusion of those negotiations.
Some of these reports were put on the table for discussion and all the parties looked at them and agreed on the outcome of the negotiations. Now, we can also not prejudge on what would be done if National Treasury or any other institution of the government would find any fault with these companies. So, I would also appeal that, as the process is undertaken and we look to cases as they come to us, we wait for the right remedies from the relevant institutions. At this stage we cannot pre-empt or prejudge what the outcome would be.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, according to the report published by the advocacy group Global Financial Integrity, GFI, it is estimated that South Africa has lost about R1 trillion outflows of capital from 2000 to 2011 due to transfer pricing and base erosion. How will the organisation for economic co-operation and development’s recommendations emanating from their base erosion and profit shifting project affect the department’s policies?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: As we’ve indicated, Chairperson, there are lot of allegations in the public domain that come to this, but those cases that are given to Treasury or to the department for investigation, we do that, and so far we haven’t come to any conclusion that says that all these issues are correct or that they can be followed up properly. So, we are working together with Treasury and the institutions that report to Treasury to investigate all allegations that are coming to us. Thank you.
QUESTION 222
QUESTION 234
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Question 222:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, I would like to thank hon member Labuschagne for her question.
Work is ongoing on international benchmarks and stakeholder consultation on this multifaceted policy to consolidate where possible and co-ordinate where necessary all government activities that have a bearing on air transportation. A number of key decisions are required to achieve the Whole of State Aviation Policy Framework. These include, amongst others, the following: visa controls; express international passenger processing; rationalisation of antitrust immunity rules; fiscal transfer mechanisms on nonprofitable strategic routes; alignment of Airports Company South Africa, ACSA, and Air Traffic Navigation Services, ATNS, objectives with that of airlines; endorsement of Fly South Africa carriers for government-funded travels; and awarding of air travel rights through a structured and co-ordinated process.
A successful policy will therefore require co-operation between various government departments and will only be possible once all its aspects are fully addressed. Given this approach, it is not possible at this stage to be certain of the effective date of implementation of the policy. It is our view as the Department of Public Enterprises that the Whole of State Aviation Policy by its nature will benefit all locally registered public and privately owned careers by creating an enabling and sustainable air transportation environment, which is supported by all spheres of government. The long-term turnaround strategy of SA Airways strongly advocates for this policy. I thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, Deputy Minister, you answered part of that on the effect of SA Airways. I would like to know what the effect of this policy would be when it is implemented on the SA Airways and its subsidiaries.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, we think that that is why the long-term turnaround strategy supports advocacy for this policy. It will be good for the airline and its subsidiaries, because, for instance, if you look at visa processing, it is one of the impediments that affect tourists who want to come to South Africa. If, for instance, the Department of Home Affairs can speed up the processing of these transit visas, it will really assist so that we can capture the lost market.
Mr C F B SMIT
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr C F B SMIT: Chairperson, is the department aware of the fact that there are high levels of frustration regarding the indescribable effects of the Whole of State Aviation Policy Framework on the success rate of (a) implanting the programmes; and (b) achieving the strategic objective of SA Airways, SAA. With SAA’s troubled financial state and given that SAA continues to incur a 31% average operating profit margin loss on five international routes that are not profitable, would it not be advisable to place a moratorium on the policy to allow SA Airways to become financially profitable first?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chair, part of the problem is that we do not have the Whole of State Aviation Policy. Some of the routes that are incurring losses are routes that are strategic for the country, but it is important that there is thorough consultation between the Department of Tourism, the Department of Transport, the Department of Public Enterprises, and other departments around this issue. So, it will be difficult just to pre-empt the situation based on what you are saying.
Mr V E MTILENI
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr V E MTILENI: Chair, mine is very simple. Of late we have been reading about the infighting between top executive members of SAA. I want to know if government is trying to get that resolved, because, in the end, it could be the main cause of what hon Smit mentioned, namely that of finding the SAA being jacked up year in and year out when it comes to their budget because their budget is depleted before the end of the term. I would like to know whether that infighting does not cause such kind of problems. [Interjections.] This is a new question, but related to what he has to answer. [Laughter.] Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, I am not sure I understood the question ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I think it will be important to stick to the rule of relevance. I am not sure about the relevance of the question to the Whole of State Aviation Policy.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, you are very soft. If I cannot hear you, I wonder if anybody else can.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I must speak into the microphone.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, sir!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I am saying it will be important to stick to the rule of relevance. I am not sure about the relevance of that question to the Whole of State Aviation Policy.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni ...
Mr V E MTILENI: The Question is very relevant because, you see ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mtileni, I did not give you the right to speak. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! The reason I said I did not understand your question was because I was trying to find the connection between the fights between people on the board and the need to stabilise policy. The question as posed by hon Smit was speaking to policy and viability and looking at different options to make the airline sustain itself. That is why I said I did not get you.
Deputy Minister, I think we must advise our hon member to write and put his views as a question, which can then be responded to.
Hon members, that then takes care of the question which was posed by the hon Labuschagne.
QUESTION 230
QUESTION 122
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Question 230:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, I would like to thank the member for her question. The working relationship between the Department of Public Enterprises and other departments is based on the principles of co-operative government and intergovernmental relations, as espoused in section 40 and 41 of the Constitution. It is intended to contribute towards efficient use of resources by the state, thus it requires shareholder Ministers to co-ordinate actions on matters of common interest with relevant state organs and other spheres of government to enhance signage between government shareholding, treasury controls, sector policies and the implementation of the integrated infrastructure planning to promote an effective, transparent and accountable government.
In certain instances consultations relating to state-owned companies businesses have specific timelines within which to respond. For example, a Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, section 54 application requires a response in 30 days from the date of final submission from the state-owned company boards.
The department and the National Treasury work closely together to finalise these applications. Where an application is complex and requires more discussion and consultation, mechanisms are in place to extend the timeline. State-owned companies are compelled to report in compliance with the PFMA on all reportable matters. These reports are submitted simultaneously to the department and the National Treasury. However, exceptions are made to engage with Cabinet colleagues and other departments more frequently when necessary to deal with more complex situations.
To ensure good governance of the state-owned companies, we also engage through interministerial bilateral meetings to discuss financial matters as well as the impact of policy on the mandate of state-owned companies. The ultimate common objective is to balance the interest of the state with those of state-owned companies where at all times the sovereign is protected.
In addition to the PFMA reporting requirements alluded to, the department has developed the strategic statement of intent which must be cascaded into the shareholder compact and the corporate plan. The statement is the pinnacle of the shareholder oversight framework, which is primarily designed to hold boards and management to account for financial, operational and developmental performance indicators in the achievement of the mandate of state-owned companies.
The framework is also supported by guidelines such as the competitive supply development programme and the remuneration standard, which, amongst other things, ensure alignment between remuneration levels and the performance scorecard of executives to the shareholder compact.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon member. Hon Vawda, are you standing in for hon Mathys? No, Mokwele.
Dr Y C VAWDA
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Dr Y C VAWDA: No, Mokwele. Thank you very much indeed, hon Deputy Chair. Please allow me a moment. I have noticed that the hon Deputy Minister is wearing a very beautiful suit accessorised with a red tie. He really looks very dashing indeed. Hon Deputy Chair, the question we would like to ask is if it wouldn’t make more financial sense for the entities under your department to be integrated into the respective departments as follows: Transnet, SA Airways and SA Express into the Department of Transport; Eskom into the Department of Energy; Broadband Infraco into the Department of Communications; Denel into the Department of Defence, etc? Are these entities run for profits or for the greater good of our country? If not, what are some of the financial decisions to support such a claim? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, what is important to appreciate is that there is a need to clarify or to distinguish the rules of government as the owner, policy maker, regulator and the implementer. In the main, the need for separation is to facilitate the principle of competitive mutuality. There is also a need to codify and harmonise shareholder management practices across government. I see no reason why we should agree with the hon member, because that will go against a need to codify this management practices across governance.
Mr G MICHALAKIS
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Minister, the recent collapse of a silo at the Majuba Power Station in Mpumalanga has highlighted the need for co-operation between your department and other departments. How will your department and the Department of Energy then work together to ensure that the country’s electricity generating infrastructure is maintained to avoid further costly and catastrophic interruptions through load shedding to the country’s economy?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Deputy Chairperson, there is an interministerial committee that deals with that. Just this morning we were in the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC, with the Deputy Minister of Energy dealing with the issues relating to Kusile and Medupi. So, there is co-operation and integrated planning and monitoring of the infrastructure build programme, even through the ICC, which is a presidential infrastructure co-ordinating commission.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, do I understand the Deputy Minister correctly? Is he actually saying that between the Department of Public Enterprises and the Department of Energy the only organisation responsible for looking at and ensuring maintenance is the structure that you mentioned now; and that the departments do not take any responsibility for that?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, I don’t want to interpret your question. Could you just please summarise it?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I would like the Deputy Minister to give an answer. He said that there is integrated – I didn’t catch everything - he said the adjusted gross revenue, AGR, is responsible for ensuring the maintenance of the infrastructure between those departments. So, does the Department of Public Enterprises have any responsibility for that? If not, why not? Furthermore, what is the responsibility of or the link between the International Depository Receipt, IDR, and the Department of Public Enterprises?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, I don’t know whether you have the appetite to respond to that question.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I think it will be important to. For the Infrastructure Development Programme to succeed, we need an integrated approach. For example, you would need the Department of Water Affairs, the Department of Energy, and a lot of other departments to work with.
Even for the infrastructure maintenance, we have Eskom which is responsible for the maintenance, but it also reports to both the Department of Public Enterprises and the PICC. The PICC was established by the President to ensure that bottlenecks are unblocked so that we can fast-track the Infrastructure Development Programme and also to ensure that there are no overrun costs. If there are, we try to minimise them. That is why we have the PICC. There is no abrogation of responsibility.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. I take it that was the last question. We will proceed.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
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Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, as far as I am concerned, the PICC is on infrastructure development and strategic projects. I thought hon Labuschagne’s question was specifically related to the maintenance to ensure that we don’t have further blackouts in this country due to the lack of maintenance by certain departments for which the Minister and the Department of Energy are responsible. So, it is not infrastructure development but a maintenance issue, and in this particular case it is an entity for which the Minister is responsible.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: May I just caution hon members. I don’t want to go back to the rules of relevance, because if we look at the nature of the question, it’s about co-operation and the Minister had tried to go beyond that, but I will allow him the opportunity if he wants to respond to issues related to maintenance; an abdication of responsibility so far as maintenance is concerned - if you have the appetite. That’s why I ask the question whether you have the appetite or not.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: If you build without maintenance, you are building to fail. That’s why there is that integration. I am saying if you build without incorporating maintenance, you are building to fail. That’s why there is this interrelationship between maintenance and the infrastructure build programme. However, the PICC, working with the departments, is trying to co-ordinate it so that the infrastructure build programme is on time and there is proper maintenance.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All right, in simple terms, for purposes of good governance, there is co-operation amongst departments and the entities that fall under that department. All right.
QUESTION 216
QUESTION 230
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Question 216:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, our response is that the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform does not issue certificates of occupation. I suspect that the member wanted to speak about something else, but I can continue to educate him.
What we do is issue title deeds of ownership to communities whose claims have been settled. The person he indicated, Mr Phakamile Mamba, launched a land claim on behalf of the Zimbane communities. He does not have an independent claim on the community claim.
In the interest of efficient processing of claims, the efficient utilisation of the resources of the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights, and the fact that the circumstances and time of the dispositions of the Zimbane and Kwa-Lindile communities are similar, the commission processed the two claims simultaneously; following the decision of the Constitutional Court, that if a claim is valid then it must be restored to communities.
The commission has been facilitating discussions to the settlement of the claim between the two communities, the King Sabata Dalindyebo Municipality and the Eastern Cape department of local government and traditional affairs. The parties are currently discussing a memorandum of agreement and recording the terms of the settlement. Thank you very much.
Mr L B GAEHLER
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Mr L B GAEHLER: Chairperson, thank you, Deputy Minister, for educating me; thank you very much. Hon Vawda, it seems that you like to appreciate men. It’s about the third time that you are praising them. Have you seen that beautiful red-coloured dress of the Chief Whip there? [Applause.] Why don’t you appreciate the ladies? [Laughter.] Thank you. Now ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I don’t know, hon Gaehler, what are you insinuating? [Laughter.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, there is a misspelling, Mamba was supposed to be Highbury Timbers. There is also a Mamba at Highbury Timbers. Mr Mamba of Zimbane passed away some time back. Sorry about the mix-up, Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, the hon Deputy Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, hon Thulas Nxesi, went to visit these communities about six, seven years back and there were promises made that these claims would be finalised, whether you call it certificates or something else, the bottom line here is the finalisation of these claims.
Now, what is happening currently on some of those lands, for instance, an Highbury the structures have totally collapsed, squatters have taken over that land. So, what are these beneficiaries going to get? It is more than 12 years that these claims have been there. The question is when are these claims going to be finalised, Chairperson?
Secondly, there is a land claim commissioner who does not even meet with the Highbury Timber people. The real question is when are the claims going to be finalised; and is government going to assist in rebuilding what has collapsed? What about those people whose land has been taken? What is the department doing about that? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the question has just become a little bit clearer. Well, not only the community that has been visited by the former Deputy Ministers, but, as I said, the claimants were two groups coming from different areas, which means that the dispossession is the same and the area is the same.
As a department we need to consolidate the two groups of claimants and restitute them as one. One group went to court preventing the other from their land right. We agreed with the court in that, if a claim is valid, we will validate all of them. This means the title deeds that will be issued there will be issued for all of them, not just for one group. That is the discussion that is under way with the local municipality and with the provincial government to resolve the conflict there.
I’m not sure about Mr Mamba who had passed on, but Mr Mamba claimed on behalf of another community. It is still on the record and he must rest in peace. Thank you.
QUESTION 219
QUESTION 216
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Question 219:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Our response to the question is that the enrolment statistics of the National Rural Youth Service Corps initiative, Narysec, per province are as follows: In the Eastern Cape we have 2 540; Free State 763; Gauteng 2 035; KwaZulu-Natal 1 545; Limpopo 2 822; Mpumalanga 857; North West 1 411; Northern Cape 1 045; Western Cape 1 558; and so far the total is 14 576. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minster, hon Masango is not here. You can’t say that you are standing in, but I will allow you to ask a supplementary question. We don’t have any formal communication indicating that you are standing in. However, you may proceed, because the Deputy Minister has already answered.
Mr C F B SMIT: Deputy Chairperson, to my knowledge there was communication confirming that I would be standing in for him.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I have allowed you to proceed!
Mr C F B SMIT: Okay, thank you. Has the Minister approached the Department of Small Business Development to devise an integrated strategy to ensure that the Narysec alumni have the opportunities to find employment and/or start their own small businesses after their tenure in the programme?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Chairperson, yes, we are in partnership with all relevant departments here. One example is that some of the youth are trained in further education and training, FET, and we have a partnership with the Department of Higher Education.
Definitely, the Department of Small Business Development as a department started this financial year. We have been communicating with the former department in terms of co-operative developments and training and small business formation. We are also in discussion with them in terms of establishing a mega co-operative for the Narysec group in the build industry. Thank you very much.
QUESTION 224
QUESTION 219
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Question 224:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Chairperson, our response to the hon member’s question is that the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform does not have records of the land claim for Matebeleng Village in the Mogalakwena Local Municipality. However, the inquiry is welcome to furnish the commission on restitution and land rights with further information regarding this claim. As it stands now, we don’t have such a claim. Thank you very much.
Mr C F B SMIT: Deputy Chairperson, it is not by name; it is where the village is, which is Weenen. The Mogalakwena Local Municipality could not provide basic services to the community of Matebeleng who have been living in Matebeleng Village since 1979 - for 16 years - due to the protracted land claim lodged in 1998.
Does the Minister think that it is fair to this community to disadvantage the community further by not addressing the uncertainties of its future?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, I don’t know if you are interested in responding to that?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: My interest is that they might think that they have lodged the claim, but it is not registered and that is the response I have given. I am still appealing to the members that they must advise the community to go and lodge the claims at our offices, seeing that the lodgement period has been re-opened. Thank you very much.
Mr M RAYI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Mr M RAYI: Deputy Chairperson, I just wanted to find out if the department has an information system that indicates the status of a land claim, possibly per municipality? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Yes, we have an information system that indicates a claim that has been lodged for every piece of land in the country, even in different municipalities. That is why this one is not reflected anywhere. Thank you.
QUESTION 227
QUESTION 224
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Question 227:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Chairperson, our response is that not all the outstanding land claims have been researched to determine the exact number of properties to write under the claim. As such, a definitive amount that is required cannot be provided. However, the National Treasury did conduct a review of the expenditure and performance of the restitution programme. The review, which is based on the number of outstanding claims as on 31 March 2013, was done by estimating the cost of settlement of those claims based on the same percentage of land restoration claims and the claims settled through financial compensation. At that stage the National Treasury estimated that an amount of R16,9 billion will be required to settle those claims.
The response to the subsection question is that the restitution programme is funded through the normal budget of government which is systematically and programmatically allocated over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. As such, the duration will be determined by the resources that are available at the given time through this process as well as the complexity and scope of the claim.
The department has previously, in its budget policy, indicated that the target of 30% will not be met by 2014 and it alluded to the challenges and interventions in this regard. The National Development Plan sets a new trajectory to land reform in terms of Vision 2030. The department’s land acquisition strategy, which focuses on deracialising the rural economy, creating a new class of black commercial farmers and production discipline in order to ensure food security for all is aligned to Vision 2030.
The assumption that the land reform process is legitimising apartheid disposition is misplaced. The department has on numerous occasions thus far set out its plan going forward in terms of reversing the legacy of the 1913 Natives Land Act and related legislation that resulted in land dispossession. All the department’s efforts thus far have been and are still aimed at reversing the effects that colonialism and apartheid had on the people of South Africa - in this instance black people and Africans in particular.
The land reform programme remains committed to achieving the objectives of the agrarian transformation strategy and the principles set out in the Green Paper on Land Reform. I thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
Dr Y C VAWDA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Dr Y C VAWDA: Hon Deputy Chair, I am obliged then to begin by appreciating the beautiful red dress of the hon Cathy Dlamini, and the hon Gaehler would look a lot better in his red tie. [Laughter.] Hon Deputy Minister, the government – and this is a very serious issue - has been playing dice with land reform and the emotions of the dispossessed people in South Africa for far too long. The department’s land reform strategy now seems to be focusing more on production rather than redressing the very serious issues of history in this country. We challenge the department to acknowledge that the present legislation and systems are not going to deliver on this very serious issue. And we challenge the department ... [Interjections.] I am within my two minutes, Chair, am I protected?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, order please!
Dr Y C VAWDA: We challenge the department to make the relevant fundamental policy changes in order to be able to implement a land reform that will redress a very, very serious issue in this country. The only way, going forward, is to make these relevant changes. We have challenged the department to do this. And our question is, when is the department going to undertake these changes? Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, it is your prerogative to respond to the question.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Well, Deputy Chairperson, I never received that challenge, but I am still waiting. I do not know what the hon member is speaking about because, as an organisation, they speak in different tongues. We have put a policy proposal on the table and they say it perpetuates evictions. So, maybe it would be better if we can sit down together - not here, but somewhere - and let them explain that to us. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no! Hon Vawda! You see, that is the problem of making statements instead of follow-up questions, because we then lose the follow-up question in the process. Is there any other follow-up question? Hon Rayi.
Mr M RAYI
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Mr M RAYI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I think, firstly, we would like to invite the hon Vawda to join the ANC, so that we can teach him the dress code. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is your follow-up question, hon Rayi? Do you have a follow-up question? [Laughter.]
Mr M RAYI: He seems to be interested in the ANC’s dress code. The follow-up question is: In the past the focus has always been on cash compensation, and when the Minister introduced the second claim he indicated that the focus will now be on restoration. To what extent are we achieving that? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Chairperson, we definitely want to move away from the cash compensation because it does not really resemble the land that the people are looking at. We have introduced a programme called redistribution of land. According to this programme, even if you do not have a claim, you can lease state land where you can operate, produce and later on have ownership of that particular land. So, I think we are looking forward to a situation where our communities will begin to understand that money cannot be kept like the land as it stands now and that the land is not growing but the population is. Thank you very much.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, hon Minister, what I would like to ask is, during the 2013-14 financial year, 210 out of the 270 new land claims settled by the department were settled in the Western Cape, benefiting 5 709 and beneficiaries from 1 202 families. How does the Minister plan to speed up the land claims settlement processes in the other provinces of the Republic?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Chairperson, we are really speeding up the issue of land claims. That is why we are now opening the office of the Valuer-General, so that the evaluation of the land can be sped up and be done in-house. I think that is how we thought, because our backlog is in the evaluation part. Thank you very much.
Mr L SUKA
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
IsiXhosa:
Mr L SUKA: Enkosi, Sihlalo. Ndifuna ukuqonda malunga nomba othile apha kuSekela Mphathiswa kule nkqubo yokubuyiselwa kwemihlaba kubantu bawo. Kule nto yenxolazwe ingaba urhulumente kunye nabo baxhamlayo kurhulumente wangaphambili bakhona abantu, ingakumbi abamhlophe, ...
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just hold it, hon member! Is there no interpretation or translation? Any translation, please!
IsiXhosa:
Mr L SUKA: Ndiza kuthetha ulwimi lwam.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it okay? Can we proceed?
Mr J J LONDT: I do not know. If he does not speak I cannot hear.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What channel is that on? Oh! May we proceed, hon Suka?
Afrikaans:
Mnr L SUKA: Ek sal vir Mnr Londt later verduidelik, maar op die oomblik wil ek in my taal praat.
IsiXhosa:
Phantsi kwalo mthetho wokubuyiselwa komhlaba, ingakumbi kubantu bawo, kweli lomdibaniso, ndifuna ukuqonda ukuba kwabo babexhamle kurhulumente wangaphambili ingaba bakhona kusini na, ingakumbi abamhlophe, abathi “hayi, rhulumente ophetheyo singakunika umhlaba othile esingawusebenzisiyo ukuze uncedise ngawo kule nkqubo yokubuyisela umhlaba kwakunye nezinto zabantu kubaninizo.”
Le nto ingathi icalanye, ingathi ilapha kurhulumente kuphela, kanti lo mhlaba siwufunayo uphesheya okanye ukwelinye icala kwezinye iintlanga. Ingaba ezinye iintlanga ezinomhlaba apha zenza ntoni njengegalelo lokuba sivane kweli lizwe ngokuthi sibabuyekeze. Ingaba ikhona loo nkqubo? Kaloku inkqubo ethi willing buyer willing seller sayiphelisa, kodwa ndicinga ukuba wonke umntu unegalelo. Ayingorhulumente kuphela ekufuneka enze le nkxamleko. Ingaba ikhona indima edlalwa ngabelungu ekubuyiseleni umhlaba kubantu bawo?
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Deputy Chairperson, they definitely come into play. And in most cases all those landowners with land that is under claim are coming forward to indicate their willingness to help in terms of keeping the production level at the same level, while we are still dealing with the claim. Some of the landowners, as I am speaking to you now, have already agreed to give out land where the government can settle their farm dwellers. We are building agrivillages, so that those people can have access to the land next to their work place. It is already happening, though not at the pace that we will all accept. It is only happening here and there, but the rest still remain. Thank you very much.
QUESTION 212
QUESTION 227
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Question 212:
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, the reply is as follows. The labour problems at the SA Post Office, Sapo, are receiving our highest attention. To date, we have held numerous engagements with the former board, management and representatives of the trade unions, with the aim of understanding the reasons behind the current industrial action.
These engagements have revealed that labour engagement forums at the SA Post Office had collapsed for several months. We then advised management and labour to re-establish these former forums of engagement and to continue to engage, with the aim of seeking solutions and to process all the matters that are dealt with in these forums.
The first priority is the measures - for all the stakeholders to have the measures to end the current industrial action.
Secondly, it is tasked with ensuring that all outstanding matters that impact on labour relations and the sustainability of the organisations are addressed. We have directed Sapo to address also the capacity challenges within the human resource environment and labour relations section, as a matter of urgency.
The labour disputes at Sapo centre on a number of issues - and there are many reasons for this - but the central issue is around the conversion of the casual workers, putting them into permanent positions within the organisation. The leadership of the unions and management are engaged in discussions, as I said, to ascertain how the conversion can be undertaken without jeopardising the financial sustainability of the organisation. That the financial situation has not improved and has indeed been worsened by the industrial action, has led to the inability to accelerate the conversion process. This, in turn, has resulted in further industrial action.
At the centre of these challenges, also, was that various agreements were entered into between the management and the unions within Sapo with regard to this process. It has also been alleged that nonimplementation or selective implementation of these agreements has led to the current situation.
It is important to say that, at this stage, there is no union that has declared any dispute or strike with the SA Post Office. So, the current industrial actions are unprotected. What has, unfortunately, happened is that the violence and intimidation associated with this labour strike has been of great concern to us. In line with the Preventing of Public Violence and Intimidation Act, Act No 139 of 1991, we would like to say that we have been working with the law-enforcement agencies to ensure that the industrial action should remain peaceful in terms of our law and Constitution, and we strongly condemn the acts of intimidation and violence.
Regarding the last portion of the question, to date, 190 cases have been reported to the police. Most of them are in relation to intimidation and malicious damage to property. However, to date, there have been 17 arrests in relation to these cases, 10 of which are currently before the courts, and only seven have been withdrawn.
Because we have noticed that they have not been implementing the principle of no work, no pay, we have directed Sapo to adhere to this principle. To give you a breakdown, in August, we had 36 cases of intimidation and industrial action. This increased to 74 in September, came down to 63 in October, and 17 now, in November. Some of these cases relate to cases such as abduction, armed robbery, assault and housebreaking. However, the majority of them are around intimidation and malicious damage to property, as we have said. I thank you very much.
Ms L L ZWANE
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
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Ms L L ZWANE: Deputy Chair, I would like to express appreciation for the response given by the Minister. I think he has adequately addressed all the issues that I posed in the question. Thank you very much. We wish him all of the best.
Ms E PRINS
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
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Ms E PRINS: Deputy Chairperson ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Prins, don’t be shy.
Ms E PRINS: Hon Minister, I would like to know if there are any plans in place to deal with the essential postal services during this strike.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Yes, we have put measures in place to try and address the challenges. Let me just say that the areas we have had the heaviest impact really are around Gauteng, to a certain extent around Bloemfontein and Polokwane, and to a lesser extent, Cape Town. Other postal services are functioning normally.
However, even in places like Gauteng, this week I visited Tshwane Mail, one in Frankfort, one in Witspos and one next to the airport. In most of these centres, the workers are starting to come back. If we check at Witspos, for instance, which is our largest centre, over 90% of the workers are back at work. If we check at Tshwane, over 60% of the workers are back at work. The challenge is still the small group which is going around in kombis intimidating people. That is why we are working very closely with it.
What we have also done, particularly with some of the major clients, is to create an alternative centre for sorting. The biggest backlog at the moment is the one at O R Tambo International Airport. The challenge there is that, with the post which has come from abroad, we must first verify that the declared VATs are correct and that they pay the VAT and that the declared customs duties are correct. That’s where the largest and huge backlog is at the moment. We believe that if workers go back to work, we will be able to clear the entire backlog within one to two months, and go into operations. I thank you very much.
Mr M KHAWULA
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, is there engagement with tertiary institutions in respect of the Grade 12 learners who might be greatly affected by the lack of communication in respect of applications between them and the institutions, so, at least, alternative measures of contacting them in respect of progress is done, so that they don’t get affected by the beginning of the year. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Deputy Chair, yes, as we have said, and you are aware that, last week, we appointed Dr Lushaba as part of our intervention when we removed the board, or had the board resign. Part of the task of stabilisation by this intervention team is to engage key stakeholders, like tertiary institutions, but our sense is that it’s not much of a problem with the tertiary institutions, because they can communicate using other, electronic, means. The problem really lies where there is distance education, like Unisa, and others. That’s where we are trying to deal with backlogs.
The other, huge problem is small businesses that rely on publications which they do through the Post Office. They are severely affected. These are small companies or family companies which are really suffering. The other area we are trying to say we must deal with as a matter of urgency is the distribution of medicine, particularly for the sick and the elderly.
The reason we are so concerned about those who are dealing with distance education, like Unisa and other colleges, is that these are people who come from the poor sectors of our society, and people who are struggling, while they are working, to try and improve their lives. This is the working class.
So, those are the types of engagement we have been having with the leaders or representatives of these workers. We say that while we have to deal with the issues about the conditions of employment, which are legitimate and raised by the workers themselves, we must make sure that the company survives and delivers services, and that we restore the credibility of the SA Post Office among the greater public, which we are serving. Thank you very much.
Mr V E MTILENI
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr V E MTILENI: Deputy Chairperson, my question to the Minister is: How far has the department gone as far as the disappearance of R21 billion earmarked for Sapo in this 2013-14 financial year is concerned?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Deputy Chair, I am not aware of the R21 billion which has been lost in this current financial year. We have not tabled the financial results, not even for last year. [Interjections.] The matter of the R21 billion was in the 2012-13 Act, which has been reported. It was handled then, about two years back. [Interjections.] No, that is correct, because we have looked into the matter. We have not had any R2,1 billion loss this financial year.
Let me also say, in terms of that reported amount of irregular spending, the current investigation by the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, spans a period of 10 years. So, if the money was stolen, the SIU will discover it and all those responsible for that will then have to face the law. So, there will be no stone left unturned for those who have their fingers in the till.
Let’s all be patient with the SIU. I am in constant contact with them to say we really appreciate their finalising those investigations because that will also help us with a new turnaround in terms of what lessons we can learn in dealing with this important state-owned company. Thank you.
QUESTION 213
QUESTION 212
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Question 213:
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Chairperson, the reply is as follows: In relation to Postbank, both the legislative and policy mandates are designed to create conditions for a strong Postbank whose task is to serve the citizens of South Africa. In particular, Postbank is enjoined to ensure that there is financial inclusion of the disadvantaged communities.
These are measures we are currently putting in place. The first one to expedite is the licensing because we have to apply for a banking license from the Reserve Bank. We have teams involving our officials from our department and National Treasury who are assisting the management of the Post Office to make sure that we comply as soon as possible.
While we are dealing with the license application, we are simultaneously dealing with the fit and proper assessments because the board members of a new corporatised bank will have to meet the fit and proper test. Therefore, we have submitted the names of the suggested board members and they are currently undergoing that fit and proper test.
Those are the measures which we have put in place so that we can have the Postbank operating as a full bank and as a bank of the people with a developmental mandate. I thank you very much.
Ms T K MAMPURU
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
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Ms T K MAMPURU: Deputy Chairperson, Minister, with more than 2 000 Post Office outlets and with more than 1,8 million savers, what are the benefits of having the Postbank, and which category of our society does it service? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Chair, as the hon member correctly said, the Post Office has more than 2 700 outlets in the country, the majority of which are just properties of the Post Office itself. The segments we are really at are the lower income groups. We are looking at helping people in rural areas, in small towns and informal settlements so that they can enjoy proper banking services. These people can then save, make loans, and also swipe, like with any other bank. They will also be able to use the Internet as we are rolling out Internet access to rural areas.
The aim is really to make sure that the unbanked and unserviced areas throughout the country do have banking services so that we can really transfer those people who are operating in the second economy to the mainstream economy of the country. Thank you very much.
Mr M RAYI
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr M RAYI: Hon Deputy Chair, my question is on whether the department has plans to encourage departments to use Postbank as a bank of choice, including the payment of social grants and payment to civil servants and parliamentarians. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy Chair, yes, we do have these plans. As we said publicly, if we can have just 10% of government’s courier business – not the whole of it, but, for example, 10% of Parliament’s courier business as and 10% of government’s as a whole – that will remove all the Post Office’s financial challenges, because it is facing the challenge of declining mail volumes.
Regarding the Postbank, it is true that the issue of access for the majority of our people is what drives us to say that we need this bank. If we can deliver the pensions or the grants we are delivering so that people can have them everyday and in a reliable manner with vibrant information technology, IT, systems, that will change the economy in the rural areas. People will then not have to wait until the end of a month or for two months to access their pensions. Therefore, if we can just make sure that we are able to pay ... not even all public servants ... and I would prefer that all of you including the hon members ... because the Post Office is your company; it is not my company. It is a public company. Then you can transfer the money from the Post Office to any other bank of your choice. That will change the prospects of the Post Office. It will become a very powerful developmental bank which could assist those of us who are still poor and do not have access.
We are also working with other government departments. For instance, as we roll out broadband, we will ensure that there is a point of presence in every postal outlet so that our people can access government services in general through modern technological means using the Internet. That will enable the Post Office to become the hub of the community.
As we also roll out these broadband services, we want to create free Wi-Fi points at post offices so that those who cannot afford to buy data can still access the Internet and grow their business in that way.
This is the approach, as we move to a sustainable Post Office, that can stand on its own without asking for a grant from government every year. Thank you.
QUESTION 220
QUESTION 213
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Question 220:
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Deputy Chairperson, in terms of challenges, we have just mentioned one. There are several challenges being faced by the Post Office. First, is the ongoing leadership challenge at both management and board levels, which has been happening for a very long time. Last Friday, we announced that the Post Office has been placed under some intervention which is led by Dr Lushaba in terms of section 25 of the Postal Services Act in order to stabilise the company and address all the challenges that are facing it in the next three months.
The second problem is around maladministration and, as I said, we hope that the two current investigations - there are two current investigations by the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, at the Post Office - will assist us in trying to identify the root causes of these problems and bring an end to these irregularities.
The third issue is the unstable or sometimes hostile labour environment which was last week attributed to the lack of appropriate management of the system of the casualisation of the people who were under the labour broker system. This has already led to these sporadic industrial actions which are often than protected, as we have said. The labour forum which we have re-established is busy addressing this matter right now.
Over and above these challenges, the SA Post Office, Sapo, is faced with a problem of declining mail volumes. It is not a unique problem to South Africa, but it is happening elsewhere and in this respect that is why we are saying that we need a strategy of how Sapo is going to be modernised so that we remain competitive as a logistic company in the postal sector.
As we have said, we are engaging with officials in the National Treasury and Dr Lushaba has given specific instruction to prioritise the turnaround strategy so that we can sign it off. But for this turnaround strategy, we need the buy-in of the workers. That is why we have said that they must consult all the workers, because it can only work when there is effective buy-in from all our workers. Those are some of the major challenges which are faced by the SA Post Office currently. Thank you.
Mr C F B SMIT
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES
Mr C F B SMIT: Deputy Chairperson, when will, firstly, striking SA Post Office employees resume their duties; secondly, stability at the executive leadership level be achieved; and thirdly, the annual financial statements be finalised?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: I have already communicated that we are engaging with the workers. As a Minister I can’t force the people to go to work. It involves negotiations. That’s why the first task after we realised that there was no forum for engagement, and that there was a complete breakdown of this forum for engagement between management and workers, we directed that this must be re-established. All the workers were happy with that and management is really trying to make this effective. Dr Lushaba’s intervention will also have to look at that, because the first term of reference is to stabilise the Post Office including this.
In terms of the finances, let me reiterate that the Post Office is not bankrupt, but it has a cash flow problem. We have mandated the intervention team to look at the capacity on management of finances and if there is no capacity to go and get that capacity as a matter of urgency, because you can’t run a R6 billion to R7 billion company if there are no adequate financial skills to drive the company.
The financial statements is one of the terms of references that in the next two or three months we must finalise so that we can have an annual general meeting, AGM, so that we can table the report at Parliament. Those are the priorities which are within the intervention team itself. I would appeal to all to support the intervention, so that we don’t do what the Post Office has been doing all along, where you have kneejerk reaction to every problem you are confronted with.
The biggest problem with management was that they were signing agreements with small groups of people and then tomorrow they sign another agreement without implementing these agreements. You don’t just resolve a labour dispute by first signing an agreement. You must know that, when you sign, you should be able to implement that agreement. That is what we are doing now. As I have said, in terms of section 25 of the SA Post Office Act, we have three months for that intervention to produce results.
QUESTION 231
QUESTION 220
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Question 231:
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: The reply is as follows. Yes, there are some challenges, as I have said, within the financial management of the Post Office which we are addressing now. As I have said, the major and the current problem is one of cash flow management. Maybe just to explain how this problem of cash flow is happening, the SA Post Office signs contracts wherein they must pay their creditors within a month, but those who owe Sapo can take a month up to two months. The flow of money doesn’t really talk to each other. Those are some of the fundamental things. It is not that money is being stolen every month. So, it has to rebalance the type of cash flows, because you can’t pay your expenses in two weeks when people who owe you are given two months to pay. Those are some of the things which we are really addressing.
Some of the challenges in the finances pertain to the long problem. As we have said, they were declaring the subsidy as a profit for many years and Parliament, you hon members, have been warning the organisation that they shouldn’t do that. Now that we have removed the subsidy, two years ago, there is a sudden collapse. There are no more profits and so on. We are saying that they must report correctly and they must monitor their finances quite frequently.
In relation to maladministration, we have the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, investigation which is on-going. The real problem was caused by the labour broker system and the management of Sapo. While they were employing casuals, they were no longer filling permanent positions. There were permanent casuals, but they are under the labour brokers and that gave rise to what the workers are talking about now - equal pay for equal work. It is a challenge. To manage this problem we are saying that we must have a comprehensive management, we must have an agreement with all the unions on how we are going to absorb these workers as quick as we can. Because we believe that, as we increase the business of Sapo, there will be a need for more and more employees in Sapo other than cutting down jobs. That is the situation we are facing at the moment. The current arrangement is that when there is natural attrition, we must consider these casual workers. When the finances of Sapo allow to create new posts, we must consider them first in filling those posts.
The last question is little bit disconnected. Subsection 3 asks whether we are investigating the cases – it’s like a separate questions altogether - of mobile operators giving the marketing companies personal information. We say, no, there is no current investigation by the department. However, the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act of 2002 provides that any person who collects or stores personal information must have the express written permission from the owner of the information before they can disclose it to third parties unless he or she is permitted or required to do so by law.
Consumers need also to be cautioned when signing mobile phone contracts. Often clauses in small prints give operators permission to distribute customers’ personal information to third parties. Hon members, I know most of you have contracts, be very careful. Don’t be excited by the smart phone and the business phone. Read the fine prints, because that is where you sometimes give this permission.
Penalties for breaking the provisions of the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act are a fine or imprisonment for a period not exceeding 12 months. So, it’s up to this House to see whether these penalties are relevant or not. It’s up to Parliament to decide.
There are other pieces of legislation that provide for the protection of the consumers’ personal information. Customers need to be aware of them and need to use them to protect themselves against this. Our task is to have awareness campaigns to the public, particularly when you are signing these contracts with the service providers. They must be careful, but we will also be cautioning the service providers that they mustn’t abuse our people. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, I’m sure equally so, Minister, that that part of the question have reminded you of your previous life. [Laughter.] These are some of the things that you used to sensitise South Africa about.
Is there any supplementary question? In the absence of any supplementary question, therefore, there are two announcements.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Dinner has been arranged at the Old Assembly. I think it was in anticipation that we might leave only at 20:00. Let’s avoid wasteful expenditure although we have finished before 20:00.
Members are also requested to remain for at least five minutes there will be a briefing by the Chief Whip.
The Council adjourned at 16:58.
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