Hansard: NA: Debate in terms of Rule 103: The escalating crisis at Eskom; Consideration of Report of Powers and Privileges Committee on Hearing into allegations of conduct constituting contempt of Parliament by members of the National Assembly; Consideration of Report of SC on Appropriations on Strategic planning session held from 29 to 30 July 2014

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 27 Nov 2014

Summary

No summary available.

Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

27 NOVEMBER 2015

PAGE: 1

THURSDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 2014

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

____________________

The House met at 14: 03.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

NEW MEMBERS

(Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I have to announce that the vacancies that occurred in the National Assembly due to the resignations of Ms N M Mdaka and Ms M A Tsopo have been filled by the nomination of Ms H V Nyambi, with effect from 14 November 2014, and Mr A J Williams, with effect from 17 November 2014, respectively. The members made and subscribed the oath and affirmation in my office this morning and we have duly welcomed the hon members to the National Assembly.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

The SPEAKER - announcement

NOTICES OF MOTION AND MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE LIMITED TO THREE PER PARTY FOR TODAY’S SITTING

(Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I move:

That the House, notwithstanding that the Rules do not provide a limit to the number of notices of motion and motions without notice that can be taken on a sitting day, limits the number of notices of motion and motions without notice to three opportunities per party, respectively, for today’s sitting.

Question put.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker ...

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, are you one of those saying aye or no? I am in the middle of putting the question.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, we are saying no. Yesterday ...

The SPEAKER: That is fine - you are saying no. I think the ayes obviously have it. Hon member, please take your seat as I am talking and addressing the House. The ayes have it but there are noes. Hon Shivambu also indicated that they were voting no. We note the noes and we proceed on the basis that the ayes clearly have it.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, may we please address you about ...

The SPEAKER: Hon members, this matter was discussed yesterday by the NA Programming Committee and before it was exhausted there was a request for parties to meet and discuss it further. Hon Shivambu, please take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, are you going to recognise me?

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I am not recognising you because I am in the middle of addressing the House.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please recognise me when you are done with that process.

The SPEAKER: Please take your seat. I am informed that this meeting did indeed take place and that all parties, except the EFF, attended that meeting, as agreed on in the NA Programming Committee.

Hon members, the Rules are made by the House and their intent is to facilitate the business of the House. The motion before us is the outcome of a particular course of action proposed by parties for the purpose of facilitating business today.

In terms of Rule 80, no member, except a member who is permitted to make a declaration of vote, shall speak to any question after it has been fully put by the Presiding Officer. I will therefore now allow one member from each political party the opportunity to make a declaration of vote with regard to this motion, if they so wish. Thereafter, the question will be put for decision. I will start with the DA and give them the opportunity to declare, if they want to do so.

Declaration(s) of vote:

Mr M WATERS: Speaker, we support the motion and just reiterate that it is for today only.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU

Mr M WATERS

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, in the NA Programming Committee yesterday we agreed that the Chief Whips of the political parties had to meet to discuss the way forward with regard to motions without notice and notices of motion. The EFF was not invited to that meeting. This was deliberate because the issues that are going to arise here affect the EFF. We do not think the decision should pass here because the EFF was not consulted. The EFF deserves the right to participate in all the platforms that are used to ensure that we have a common understanding on the programme of this Parliament. We cannot be party to the violation of the Rules of the National Assembly. There is a sequence of proceedings in terms of Rule 29 and we think it such should apply so that we have a properly constituted House, without violating the Rules for the purpose of convenience.

We were not invited to the meeting and, by the way, we are the ones who proposed that there should be a forum outside. How could political parties sit with the exclusion of the EFF when it was the EFF that suggested that the meeting must sit to look into this issue? We really think that this must not pass until there has been proper consultation. Otherwise, let us apply the Rules and proceed as per the guidelines and Rules of the National Assembly. Thank you.

Mr M MPONTSHANE

Mr N F SHIVAMBU

Mr M MPONTSHANE: Hon Speaker, the IFP supports the motion. Thank you.

Prof M N KHUBISA

Mr M MPONTSHANE

Prof M N KHUBISA: Hon Speaker, yesterday we met as the Chief Whips Forum and we supported the fact that each party would move three motions. Thank you.

Mr N L S KWANKWA

Prof M N KHUBISA

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Indeed, Madam Speaker, we were also at that meeting and we support the change just for today. Thank you.

Ms C DUDLEY

Mr N L S KWANKWA

Ms C DUDLEY: Hon Speaker, the ACDP supports the motion, which was agreed to in the Chief Whips Forum. We were also in the NA Programming Committee when the EFF proposed that we meet and we were also there to hear the response in the NA Programming Committee – that all Chief Whips were to meet straight afterwards. Thank you.

Ms D CARTER

Ms C DUDLEY

Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, just to confirm that Cope was also present in the NA Programming Committee, where the invitation was given right at the end to all members of all parties that the Chief Whips would meet. We also supported the three motions per party for this sitting only. Thank you.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA

Ms D CARTER

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Speaker, we support the motion. Thank you.

Mr N T GODI

Mr L M NTSHAYISA

Mr N T GODI: Speaker, we have no qualms with the motion as it stands. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Order! Have I missed out on any party? [Interjections.] The ANC?

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

The SPEAKER

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I just wanted to indicate to hon members that we are right to move this motion and also to indicate that after the NA Programming Committee meeting, I went straight to the microphone and announced that we were having a Chief Whips Forum meeting in V16.

We tried our level best to call the hon members and they did not come. So, they were consulted because they knew that we were having the meeting in V16 immediately after the NA Programming Committee meeting. Thank you.

THE SPEAKER: Have I missed out on any political party? [Interjections.] The FF Plus is not in the House. The PAC? [Interjections.]

Hon members, as I have said, the ayes have it, even judging by the record of the declarations of vote as we have gone around the House.

Agreed to.

NOTICES OF MOTION

SPEAKER – ANNOUNCEMENTS AND RULING

NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House -

notes that the Minister of Energy, Ms T M Joemat-Pettersson, misled the House during the ministerial reply on her responsibility regarding the appointment of the chairperson and members of the PetroSA board;

further notes that in reply to a question why she had hired corrupt people and an alleged fraudster, the Minister said she did not appoint the PetroSA board but that the Central Energy Fund appointed the PetroSA Board, and that the board was not appointed by the Cabinet but by the umbrella body; the holding body;

acknowledges that although the Minister does not directly appoint the members of the PetroSA board, she had written a letter to the Central Energy Fund board, recommending that they appoint four people to the board;

recognises that the Minister is the only person who can request the board of the CEF to remove any member, including the chairperson of the PetroSA Board, and only then can the CEF act on her recommendation;

observes that the Minister recommended an alleged fraudster, Mr Tshepo Kgadima, to be appointed as the chairperson of the PetroSA board;

further observes that the board of the CEF accepted the Minister’s recommendation and appointed Mr Kgadima as the chairperson of the PetroSA board;

condemns the actions of the Minister and censures the Minister for misrepresenting the facts; and

(8) calls on the Minister to explain her utterances in this regard to the House.

[Applause.]

Mr A M MUDAU

Mr L W GREYLING

Mr A M MUDAU: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates the efforts to strengthen the fight against the illicit and illegal tobacco trade currently engulfing sub-Saharan Africa. [Applause.]

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM

Mr A M MUDAU

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

That the House –

(1) deliberates on the issue of the tragic and brutal murder of baby Jamie Naidoo in Durban;

(2) recognises that the SA Police Service and the Social Welfare Services failed to protect this vulnerable child when she needed protection the most;

(3) acknowledges that the community made numerous calls to both the SA Police Service and the Department of Social Welfare to intervene given the abuse the child was subjected to, but they showed a considerable lack of competence in preventing her eventual tragic and painful death;

(3) mourns the fact that the unfortunate child is being led to rest today, joining the ever-growing roll of shame for which we as a nation have to take responsibility.

Rev K R J MESHOE

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM

Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, I move without notice that the House ... [Interjection.]

The SPEAKER: Order! We are busy with notices of motion, Reverend. We are still on notices of motion.

Rev K R J MESHOE: All right, Speaker, but the hon Greyling made one.

The SPEAKER: Did he do a motion without notice?

Rev K R J MESHOE: Yes, he did.

The SPEAKER: No, hon Greyling, I am told it was without notice. [Interjections.] All right, he gave a notice of motion. Let’s just stick with notices of motion and then we will move to motions without notice. Do you also have a notice of motion?

Rev K R J MESHOE: Yes, I do.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House-

debates the worrying reports that the number of male student enrolment in South Africa’s higher educational institutions is decreasing significantly; and

comes up with recommendations for what should be done to reverse this negative trend.

Ms S J NKOMO

Rev K R J MESHOE

Ms S J NKOMO: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House –

debates the rampant increase in spending of public funds, with irregular expenditure climbing from R27 billion last year to more than R62 billion in March this year; and

discusses means and measures that should be implemented immediately to eradicate such criminal activity by public officials.

Mr C D KEKANA

Ms S J NKOMO

Mr C D KEKANA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates dealing with the challenges that stifle the promotion of gender equity in institutions of higher learning as a strategic objective to transform this institution.

Prof N M KHUBISA

Mr C D KEKANA

Prof N M KHUBISA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

That the House debates ways and means of dealing with the drug syndicates that are prevalent in certain corners of our country.

Ms V VAN DYK

Prof N M KHUBISA

Ms V VAN DYK: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House debates the high incidence of drug abuse in Namaqualand, Northern Cape, and the lack of rehabilitation facilities in that region.

Mrs C DUDLEY

Ms V VAN DYK

Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House –

debates the concern that gender-based violence has significant cost implications for the state and for civil society;

realises that an improved funding model for addressing gender-based violence, which includes the prevention of funding, is essential if we were to adequately respond to the challenges of violence against women and children.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM

Mrs C DUDLEY

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:

That the House –

debates the issue of the mushrooming of bed and breakfast operations and others that provide accommodation on an hourly basis;

acknowledges that such operations are a mere front for prostitution, human trafficking and the use and abuse of illegal substances of a narcotic nature;

recognises that these operations are run largely by but are not limited to foreign nationals within the sovereign territory of the Republic of South Africa;

declares that these operations are doing harm to the high standard and good reputation of our hospitality industry.

Ms Z C FAKU

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM

Ms Z C FAKU: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House debates resolving the challenges faced by state-owned energy companies, given their important role as a catalytic sector for development and as a means to mitigate some of the capacity challenges they experience currently.

[Applause.]

Mr M HLENGWA

Ms Z C FAKU

Mr M HLENGWA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House debates the critical medicine shortages in Gauteng due to its health department’s failure to pay suppliers on time.

Mr L M NTSHAYISA

Mr M HLENGWA

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the AIC:

That the House debates ways to create meaningful participation in order to curb public protests and demonstrations and to promote transparency and accountability by the government.

Ms T E BAKER

Mr L M NTSHAYISA

Ms T E BAKER: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House –

debates the action to be taken against the Mkhondo Municipality in Mpumalanga for the unattended sewage spill that flows directly into the Assegaai River; and

discusses the danger that this negligent action poses to the lives of thousands of people who live in this area.

[Applause.]

Mrs C DUDLEY

Ms T E BAKER

Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House –

debates the need to value our children and to move away from a culture of thinking that we can throw away what we think we do not need; and

focuses on the fact that children are precious, that no child must be unwanted and that much still has to be done to support women in this regard.

MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

NOTICES OF MOTION

BOY BOY SHAI OF BOKGAGA VILLAGE STARTS A THRIVING LIBRARY

(Draft Resolution)

Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

welcomes the news that Boy Boy Shai of Bokgaga Village near Tzaneen in Limpopo started a thriving library in his village;

notes that there are five schools in the area that do not have a library;

further notes that Shai used an abandoned house that had been used by thugs to hide stolen goods, rape women and children and for other criminal activities to start the library;

applauds Shai for his vision and initiative in asking local principals and members of the public to donate books that they no longer used;

highly commends Shai for offering lessons to Grades 10 to 12 pupils after school and for teaching them subjects such as Maths, English and Accounting, even making use of an old wardrobe as a chalkboard;

marvels at the reports that students are using the library to do their homework and research for their assignments; and

calls on both government and the business community to assist this visionary leader in his endeavours to expand the library into an information centre and an Internet café where people can even search for jobs online.

Agreed to.

Mr M G P LEKOTA

Rev K R J MESHOE

SA NATIONAL EDITORS’ FORUM REPORT

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

notes the concerns of the SA National Editors’ Forum, Sanef, in its report of 9 November 2014, regarding the unprecedented loss of jobs in journalism and the impact this could have on the role of the media in providing credible and reliable information to the public, as envisaged in the Constitution;

further notes that Sanef met with the Deputy President and the Cabinet on 15 November to share perspectives with Ministers about the changes taking place in the media environment and to discuss the role government can play in ensuring the continued flow of information to the public;

also notes its concern regarding the safeguarding of editorial independence in the interest of the public receiving news that is credible;

finally notes its concern about Parliament cutting the feed on certain occasions, while on another occasion preventing several members of the media from entering the National Council of Provinces while the President was delivering his annual address to the Council;

recognises that the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces are conceived as a People’s Parliament and accordingly sees the imperative of Parliament upholding a free media as a constitutional imperative meant to keep the people fully informed; and

therefore calls on the Deputy President, the Cabinet, the Speaker and the Chair of the National Council of Provinces to assure Sanef that its concerns have been appropriately addressed in that they guarantee the media that this freedom remains sacrosanct in democratic South Africa.

The SPEAKER: Order! If there are no objections, I put the motion. Is there an objection? [Interjections.] In light of the objection, the motion without notice becomes a notice of motion.

Motion not agreed to.

Ms C N MAJEKE

Mr M G P LEKOTA

TEACHER AND SON SURVIVE A TWO-HOUR ORDEAL

(Draft Resolution)

Ms C N MAJEKE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

notes that a teacher and her 10-year-old son survived a two-hour ordeal in their home at the hands of an axe-wielding attacker on Monday, 24 November 2014;

further notes that the woman and her son live in Hamburg, a community near East London;

acknowledges that the woman was raped and her son hit on the head with an axe and that the attacker fled with R2 000 in cash and two cellphones;

further acknowledges that the woman rushed to a neighbour’s house for help and an ambulance arrived after the police allegedly failed to get to the woman and her son;

recognises that this appalling ordeal took place on the eve of the launch of the 16 Days of No Violence against Women and Children campaign; and

condemns violence against women and children.

Agreed to.

Prof N M KHUBISA

Ms C N MAJEKE

START OF 16 DAYS OF ACTIVISM AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILD ABUSE

(Draft Resolution)

Prof N M KHUBISA: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

notes that the 16 Days of No Violence against Women and Children campaign started on 25 November 2014;

acknowledges that during this time people specifically come out to condemn all acts violating the basic human rights of women and children, including harassment, molestation or sexual abuse, and killing, beating or maiming them;

believes that the campaign against women and children abuse should be ongoing and must manifest itself in programmes and projects that deal decisively with this scourge, and that all those who commit crimes of child and women abuse must face the full might of the law; and

applauds the clarion call of the nonprofit organisation Women and Men Against Child Abuse, which has called for the establishment of an international tribunal on crime and violence against children, for world leaders and the UN committees to strictly and effectively monitor and evaluate the efficiency and effectiveness of our country's policies and criminal justice system in protecting children's rights, and for the establishment of an international children's criminal court to hold governments and their leaders accountable for failing to protect children from all forms of abuse.

Agreed to.

Mr S MNCWABE

Prof N M KHUBISA

CONDOLENCES TO FAMILIES OF PEOPLE KILLED IN CAR ACCIDENT

(Draft Resolution)

Mr S MNCWABE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

conveys its condolences to the families and relatives of the seven people, including Sbongile Ntshangase, a social worker, who passed away with her husband on Saturday after a car accident that occurred near Dokodweni in Gingindlovu in KwaZulu-Natal; and

calls on all road users to be extra cautious to ensure that they are safe, especially during this festive season.

Agreed to.

Ms H O MAXON

Mr S MNCWABE

INCREASE IN CASES OF GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE IN SA

(Draft Resolution)

Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

notes with concern the increase in cases of gender-based violence in our country;

further notes that the Medical Research Council’s latest research reveals that only 1 in 25 women in Gauteng report rape; in other words, it can be deduced that up to 3 600 women could be raped in the country every day;

acknowledges that many women are still subject to prejudice and discrimination in many ways;

further acknowledges that the majority of police stations still do not have enough trained staff to deal with gender-based violence;

encourages community leaders, church leaders and all leaders of society to stand up against gender-based violence and all forms of violence against the vulnerable in society; and

condemns all forms of gender-based violence.

Agreed to.

Mr M WATERS

Ms H O MAXON

THREE MEN CHARGED WITH ATTEMPTED MURDER

(Draft Resolution)

Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

notes that three of the five men accused of allegedly attacking and racially abusing a cleaner, Delia Adonis, in Cape Town, have been charged with attempted murder;

further notes that the three students were in addition charged with assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm and crimen injuria, following an alleged attack on the 52-year-old Ms Adonis last month;

acknowledges that there is absolutely no place for racism and racially motivated violence in our society;

trusts that justice will be done in this matter and that the tough stance taken by the prosecutors will act as a deterrent against racially motivated violence in our society; and

conveys its message of support to the Adonis family during this difficult time. [Applause.]

Agreed to.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE

Mr M WATERS

BRIGHT STARS MENTORSHIP PROGRAMME

(Draft Resolution)

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House-

notes that the Bright Stars Mentorship Programme is a child and youth mentorship programme run by a nongovernmental organisation called the Peace Agency;

further notes that the programme assists vulnerable children and at-risk youth who lack adult role models and family support;

recognises that the programme recruits suitable mentors who are then matched to a child, and they engage in a supervised meeting of one hour a week for a year, helping these children discover better opportunities for themselves;

calls on the government to improve its support to this and other NGOs that are engaged in life-changing activities in our country’s many communities; and

congratulates the Peace Agency on this initiative and wishes it great success.

Agreed to.

Mr B A RADEBE

Mr A M MPONTSHANE

FIKILE MOYA APPOINTED NEW EDITOR OF THE MERCURY NEWSPAPER

(Draft Resolution)

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House—

notes that Mr Fikile Ntsikelelo Moya has been appointed as the editor of The Mercury newspaper in KwaZulu-Natal;

further notes that Mr Moya is currently the executive editor at Pretoria News and will take up his new post on 1 December 2014;

recalls that before joining Independent Newspapers he was the editor of The Witness in Pietermaritzburg before moving to City Press, where he was the business section editor and deputy editor;

acknowledges the company’s commitment to address the historical imbalance in the media landscape, which has not changed significantly since 1994; and

congratulates Mr Moya on his appointment and wishes him well in his position.

Agreed to.

Ms N V NQWENISO

Mr B A RADEBE

NO AUDITOR-GENERAL OPINION ON NKANDLA

(Draft Resolution)

Ms N V NQWENISO: Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House—

notes the recent statement by the Auditor-General that this auditing institution could not provide any audit opinion on the matter relating to the so-called security upgrades in Nkandla because all information relating to the upgrades was hidden from the Auditor-General;

further notes that this revelation by the Auditor-General further strengthens the belief by everyone in the country that the President and his Ministers did indeed know what was going on in Nkandla, for were that not the case, the documents relating to these upgrades would not be classified;

acknowledges that the Nkandla issue will remain a significant present and historical blight on the continuing evaluation of our democracy, one that will forever be etched in the memories of South Africans and a key moment in the rapid deterioration of our country and its moral compass;

further acknowledges that the continuing disregard of key constitutional institutions such as the Auditor-General and the Public Protector are necessary prerequisites for cleptocracy to descend on our nation and wreck it into a shadow of its former self;

reflects on the role it has played in defending our Constitution against acts of criminality by those high up in the governance of our country;

and whether, through our silence as Parliament, we have tacitly encouraged the destruction of our country by corruption.

The SPEAKER: Order! Are there any objections to this motion? [Interjections.] There are objections.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM

Ms N V NQWENISO

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that Bongani Mthombeni was sentenced in the Dundee Magistrate’s Court to 25 years’ imprisonment for the kidnapping and rape of a 13-year-old boy;

further notes that the High Court of KwaZulu-Natal endorsed the sentence; and

expresses its appreciation for the judicial process, which aims to punish criminals and contribute to an environment in which our children are sheltered and protected from abuse and sexual predators, and which led to the conviction of the criminal.

Agreed to.

Ms S P KOPANE

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM:

Ms S P KOPANE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that the Peninsula School Feeding Association and the renowned digital agency Hellocomputer have teamed up to create a ground-breaking new media platform, Social Feed;

further notes that Social Feed is a media platform that encourages people to feed hungry schoolchildren by simply sharing content on social media platforms;

acknowledges that this new initiative encourages brands to purchase media from Social Feed and that each time this media or content is shared, a meal is shared with a schoolchild;

further acknowledges that this initiative will contribute greatly to alleviating hunger in communities where many children go to school on empty stomachs daily;

calls on South Africans to show support for this innovative new approach to fighting hunger; and

congratulates the Peninsula School Feeding Association and Hellocomputer for creating Social Feed as a platform to feed our children.

Agreed to.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that a worker was killed in an accident in an Anglo mine;

further notes that the worker was fatally injured in a fall-of-ground incident on Tuesday, 25 November 2014;

acknowledges that AngloGold Ashanti has expressed its sincere condolences to the family; and

conveys its deepest condolences to the family of the deceased.

Agreed to.

Mr M W MADISHA

MR M L W FILTANE

Mr M W MADISHA: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes that the children of parents working on farms have benefited the least from the advent of democracy in South Africa;

further notes that such children have few role models with educational qualifications and therefore see no necessity to pursue a tertiary education; neither are they strongly urged by their parents to go to university;

recognises that privilege generally confers privilege and that those who grow up among the disadvantaged continue to be disadvantaged themselves;

further recognises the sterling work of the Greyton Genadendal Education Fund in financially supporting academically inclined children from low-income families to complete the last four years of their high-school studies and thereafter providing a top-up to those students from their area who enroll at a university and get assistance from the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, so that they can adequately meet the financial demands of university life;

trusts that other individuals who wish to contribute to the upliftment of children in their communities and districts will emulate the socially conscious individuals of Greyton and Genadendal by setting up their own district education funds; and

congratulates chairwoman Marilyn Barker and the Greyton Genadendal Education Fund members for the work they have done and for taking the initiative to seek registration with the global nongovernmental organisation network, which was recently created to attract additional funds to help even more disadvantaged children.

Agreed to.

Ms D CARTER

MR W M MADISHA

Ms D CARTER: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

notes how Eskom’s mounting woes are impacting massively on our struggling economy;

further notes Eskom’s lack of capacity, due to a variety of reasons, to meet the country’s energy needs;

acknowledges that our country is fully committed to strenuously mitigating the impact of gas emissions on climate change;

further acknowledges our commitment to green power technologies;

remembers that converting DC to AC and back again to DC is highly inefficient;

recognises that businesses and households are increasingly using more energy to power electronic devices and lights and that the changing circumstances of electricity consumption warrants a greater use of DC in our homes and businesses;

further recognises the need for our country to keep pace with what other countries are doing and to work with other countries to approve standards for DC-powered homes, as well as USB power delivery standards, and that by doing so electronic devices can be powered more efficiently through DC, reducing demand for peak power;

calls on the respective Ministers of Energy, Public Enterprises and Science and Technology to act expeditiously;

further calls on Ministers to create the regulatory framework for the enhanced use of DC power in conjunction with USBs;

urges the Ministers to stay in step with the latest developments in the United Kingdom, United States and elsewhere in regard to DC usage to power electronic devices.

Agreed to.

MS C DUDLEY

MS D CARTER

SHOCKING MURDER OF JEWISH PEOPLE

(Draft Resolution)

Ms C DUDLEY: Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House –

notes and expresses shock and outrage over the recent murder of Jewish people praying at a synagogue;

acknowledges that for Jewish people the synagogue is as holy as churches are to Christians and mosques are to Muslims;

expresses sincere condolences to the families of those murdered and to the people of Israel collectively;

urges the Israeli public to resist any temptation to retaliate, while acknowledging that tempers do run high at times like these;

condemns any and all acts of terrorism.

Mr D L TWALA: Speaker, I would like to object to the motion that has just been proposed. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Order! There is an objection to the motion without notice.

Ms F S LOLIWE

Ms C DUDLEY

WORLD AIDS DAY ONE OF MOST RECOGNISED INTERNATIONAL HEALTH DAYS

(Draft Resolution)

Ms F S LOLIWE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House‑

notes that World Aids Day is celebrated around the world on 1 December each year;

further notes that this day has become one of the most recognised international health days and the key opportunity to raise awareness, to commemorate those who have passed away and to celebrate victories such as increased access to treatment and prevention services;

ensures that everyone who needs HIV/Aids treatment has access to treatment;

further ensures that everyone is empowered and educated in order to protect themselves from HIV and Aids infection;

calls on our government, civil society, youth formations and the community in general to renew their resolve to fight this epidemic, which has claimed millions of lives across the globe; and

fights against the stigma and discrimination associated with this disease and restore the dignity and human rights of those affected.

MR K J MILEHAM

MS F S LOLIWE

POLITICAL INSTABILITY AT MOGALAKWENA LOCAL MUNICIPALITY, LIMPOPO

(Draft Resolution)

Mr K J MILEHAM: Hon Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the DA:

That the House‑

notes the ongoing political instability at the Mogalakwena Local Municipality in Limpopo, which arises from factionalism in the ANC;

further notes that the North Gauteng High Court has on various occasions interjected and restrained SA Police Service, the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the Limpopo MEC for co-operative governance, human settlements and traditional affairs and the former mayor of Mogalakwena Local Municipality, Mr Mashamaite, from entering and occupying the municipal offices and interfering in any manner whatsoever with the municipal council, its appointed municipal manager or any of its official’s ability or right to exercise their power or perform their functions in terms of the Constitution and any other applicable legislation;

acknowledges that the same court yesterday ordered the incarceration of the provincial head of the legal services of the SAPS in Limpopo, the station commander of the SAPS in Mokopane, the former mayor and the nine deployees of the ANC who fill up all council positions for contempt of the above court order and recognises that the rule of law and the separation of powers are a constitutional imperative;

condemns the actions of the police in serving the factional interests of certain elements of the ANC; and

calls on the Minister of Police and the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to present a comprehensive report on the situation in Mogalakwena for consideration and debate in this House.

The SPEAKER: If there are no objections, I put the motion. Are there any objections? [Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Speaker, there is an objection.

The SPEAKER: There is an objection from the hon Radebe.

Mr J A MNGXITAMA

MR K J MILEHAM

NIGERIA’S NATIONAL ASSEMBLY INVADED BY POLICE

(Draft Resolution)

Mr J A MNGXITAMA: Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the EFF:

That the House‑

notes that the police in Nigeria entered parliament and teargassed honourable members in that House, forcing the House to be suspended for more than a week;

further notes that the police are an essential arm of the executive and should not interfere in the legislature and that this House must note that the invasion of the police in Nigeria of their National Assembly was triggered by the defection of the Speaker from the ruling party ... [Laughter.] ... to the opposition benches;

condemns this use of violence in Nigeria and states that the police must allow Members of Parliament do their work and not assist the ruling parties to deal with difficult political questions.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Order! If there are no objections, I put the motion. [Interjections.]

Mr B A RADEBE: There is an objection, hon Speaker.

The SPEAKER: There is an objection to the motion, hon members.

Ms F S LOLIWE

Mr J A MNGXITAMA

PROF MUBANGIZI CONGRATULATED ON LATEST ACHIEVEMENTS

(Draft Resolution)

Ms F S LOLIWE: Hon Speaker, I move without notice on behalf of the ANC:

That the House‑

notes that KwaZulu-Natal academic Betty Mubangizi has received the top rating from the National Research Foundation for her work and research with the College of Law and Management Studies;

further notes that the C-rating is awarded to researchers who have been identified as leaders in their field of expertise, in recognition of their constant high-quality research;

recalls that they go through a long application process, which involves an independent team of highly regarded academics from local and international institutions who carefully review their submissions; and

congratulates Professor Mubangizi on her latest achievements.

The SPEAKER: Are there any other motions without notice? [Interjections.] Are you objecting? [Interjections.] There is an objection to this motion without notice. The EFF has exhausted its three opportunities.

Ms C DUDLEY

MS F S LOLIWE

IRREGULARITIES IN FISCAL MANAGEMENT OF KWAZULU-NATAL EDUCATION DEPARTMENT

(Draft Resolution)

Ms C DUDLEY: I move without notice on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House‑

acknowledges the appointment of a commission of inquiry into the KwaZulu-Natal education department’s fiscal management and procurement procedures by the KwaZulu-Natal MEC for education;

notes that this comes after the provincial department received qualified audits for three consecutive years and after the Auditor-General found a number of irregularities in the department’s financial management practices;

further notes that the nonpayment of service providers in the province has made it necessary for such an intervention;

expresses the hope that this will bring an end to the continuous financial challenges that have plagued the department;

congratulates the Department of Basic Education for acting on this matter and showing a commitment to ensuring that unqualified audits become the norm in all departments..

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

16 DAYS OF ACTIVISM FOR NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN

(Member’s Statement)

Ms Z C FAKU (ANC): Madam Speaker, in its bid to ensure that women and children are protected from incidents of domestic violence and crime against children, the ANC shall further strengthen the institutions working in this area and pursue a multidisciplinary approach in the fight on violence against women and children.

Thus, the ANC calls on all South Africans to rally behind the campaign of 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children. It believes that this annual campaign, which was initiated by the government, has managed to galvanise and mobilise South Africans to take a stand against this violence, which has victimised and traumatised helpless members of society.

The ANC also appeals to all males in our society to be a critical part of this campaign to ensure that we all promote responsible behaviour and work towards the eradication of this scourge of violent behaviour.

Furthermore, the ANC calls on law enforcement agencies to demonstrate zero tolerance for gender-based violence, including against children. The ANC appeals to all our communities to be alert and not to turn a blind eye to the perpetrators of such violence, but to expose and isolate the individuals behind these despicable acts. Let us work towards safer and protected communities. I thank you.

MRS A M DREYER

Ms Z C FAKU

DA CALLS ON PRESIDENT ZUMA TO ANSWER QUESTIONS IN NA CHAMBER

(Member’s Statement)

Mrs A M DREYER (DA): Madam House Chairperson, today, at the last sitting of this year, the President of South Africa is once again not appearing in this House to answer questions and to be held accountable. This means he is in direct violation of Rule 111 of the Rules of Parliament, as well as of the Constitution.

By not appearing in Parliament to answer Oral Questions each term of 2014, he has violated this Rule and the Constitution three times this year. However, this House itself is also in violation of its own Rules for not insisting that President Zuma appears.

The DA has been vociferous in our calls for the President to come to Parliament. We have demanded this of the Speaker, the Chief Whip, Deputy President, the Programming Committee and the President himself. The DA has proposed a motion of censure against President Zuma for his violation of the Rules. However, the ANC has blocked it at every opportunity.

This is a disgrace to our democracy! South Africa deserves better. South Africa deserves a new government!

MR M Q NDLOZI

MRS A M DREYER

EFF REJECTS PRESIDENT ZUMA’S NOTION THAT SOUTH AFRICA WILL COLLAPSE IF ANC COLLAPSES

(Member’s Statement)

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, the EFF rejects President Jacob Zuma’s notion that our country would go down if the ANC went down. Addressing the ANC Youth League Congress last night, the President said, and I quote:

Now I can guarantee that if everything goes wrong with the ANC, everything will go wrong with this country.

The EFF is of the view that South Africa will be safe the day that the ANC is out of government. [Interjections.] This is because the ANC is a corrupt organisation that is doing everything in its power to protect corrupt individuals, including President Jacob Zuma.

As things stand, the ANC is ready to undermine the Constitution of South Africa in defence of these individuals who are criminally looting our people’s resources daily. South Africa will indeed be safe when the ANC goes down because it is a party that protects capitalist interest with the willingness to massacre poor workers like they did in Marikana.

The safety of the country precisely lies in removing a gang of criminals who are doing everything to undermine and perpetuate the exploitation our people and undoing their dignity everywhere. The President’s statement is the clearest indication yet of his daydreams and fantasies of becoming the leader of South Africa. [Interjections.] It expresses a man who wishes to be a dictator because all dictators deeply feel that things cannot happen without them.

Millions of poor South Africans go through their lives every day without any help from the ANC. They remain homeless, unemployed, without healthcare, sanitation and at the mercy of white monopoly capital. South Africa is actually going down due to the ANC. This is the reason that many people are hopeful with the EFF because the EFF now represents the aspirations of the poor people and the majority of South Africans.

The EFF is unapologetic and can say without any fear whatsoever that it wants the ANC to disappear. We add that it must disappear because it is a long, cold and terrorising nightmare for our people. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M U KALAKO: Chair, I rise on a point of order, Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, hon member, what is your point of order?

Mr M U KALAKO: The audience over there is participating in this whole debate... [Interjections.] ... and they have been doing so ever since they came in. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much, hon member. Order, hon members! Order, hon members! A point of order has been raised and it is true. I would like to ask our guests in the gallery that while we appreciate their presence, they should not partake in the business of the House, either by clapping hands or engaging with the discussion as it goes on. Thank you very much.

MS M P MOOLA

Mr M Q NDLOZI

ANC WELCOMES MINIMUM WAGE FOR DOMESTIC WORKERS

(Member’s Statement)

MS M P MOOLA (ANC): Hon Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the minimum wage for domestic workers. This is part of the ANC’s ongoing commitment to protecting the rights of workers, which finds expression in the determination to deal with abusive practises relating to work and labour. It therefore welcomes the decision of the Department of Labour to adjust upwardly the salaries of domestic workers within the framework of the national minimum wage.

This major advance in the sectoral minimum wage will go a long way towards addressing the exploitation of workers by those employing them. Thus, this major decision must be sustained in all sectors of labour to assist in closing the gap between those in the top salary bracket and those at the lowest level of earners.

This decision, which comes into effect as of December 2014, is a milestone in demonstrating the commitment of the ANC government to improve the quality of life of lowly paid workers who are faced with the challenge and the pressure to cope with the ever-increasing cost of living. This advancement is a boost and a practical step in the ANC resolve to investigate the modality for the introduction of a national minimum wage as a key component of reducing inequality. I thank you.

MR M A MNCWANGO

MS M P MOOLA

IFP NOTES VICTORY IN WARD 19, ULUNDI

(Member’s Statement)

Mr M A MNCWANGO (IFP): Hon Chairperson, the IFP would like this House to take note of the IFP’s sweeping victory in a fiercely contested by-election in Ward 19 in Ulundi yesterday. It is proof that former NFP supporters are now ditching the party in their droves.

This is a very sweet victory indeed as it marks the end of the NFP’s control of the ward where the NFP president not only resides but also votes. What makes this victory even more gratifying is that the ANC and NFP - as they always do - dispensed taxpayers’ money for their candidates in that area. [Interjections.]

Yet the people of Ulundi still voted for the IFP. They voted for the IFP because they are disillusioned with the lack of delivery by the NFP. They are disillusioned with the fact that the NFP tricked voters into believing that they were an opposition party when in fact they are in a shaky matrimonial relationship with the ANC. [Laughter.] What is even more telling is that the NFP has been struggling in one by-election after the other.

The IFP wishes to thank its members and leaders who worked so hard to secure this victory. We do not take for granted the confidence that our people continue to demonstrate in the IFP and we commit to redoubling our efforts in working for them. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

MR M L W FILTANE

MR MNCWANGO

UDM WELCOMES 2013-14 NATIONAL AND PROVINCIAL AUDIT OUTCOMES

(Member’s Statement)

Mr M L W FILTANE (UDM): Hon Madam Speaker and hon members, the PFMA of 2013-14 on National and Provincial Audit Outcomes announced by the Auditor-General on Wednesday, 26 November 2014, is welcome and noted. We welcome the improvement from 22% to 25% in clean audits, though it represents only 15% of the total estimates of national expenditure. We also welcome the leadership and admirable performances of Gauteng and the Western Cape.

It is disturbing that unauthorised and irregular expenditures are increasing and that noncompliance with legislation remains high. This is lawlessness!

The Auditor-General has found that among the many root causes for not receiving clean audits is instability and vacancies in key positions like accounting officers and chief financial officers. Clearly, the notorious cadre deployment policy is the culprit here. These are positions where people are appointed by a deployment committee, which is always infected with sectional battles.

Further, this policy makes it easy for transgressors to escape the consequences of their transgression and poor performance - a matter that the report addresses. Again, this cadre deployment policy is the culprit because if the transgressor is part of the dominant faction in the deployment committee, then he/she becomes untouchable.

The absence of leadership in government is collapsing governance, which contributes largely to the waste of people’s money. The report finds no less than R62 billion of irregular expenditure. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Ms M A MOLEBATSI

Mr M L W FILTANE

ARREST OF FOUR PEOPLE AND SEIZURE OF AMMUNITION

(Member’s Statement)

Ms M A MOLEBATSI (ANC): Hon Chairperson, the ANC welcomes the arrest of four people at a smallholding in Bronkhorstspruit, Gauteng, following the seizure of ammunition and explosives by the SA Police Service. Among the arms seized were nine hunting rifles, two 9mm pistols, several revolvers, about 300 9mm bullets, 1 040 boxes of shotgun ammunition and grenades. There was also dagga.

We commend the police for this seizure; we can sleep a bit sounder in the nights to come. However, this seizure would not have been possible without a tip-off to the police from neighbours who heard gun shots at the smallholding. We salute the neighbours for that. This is a perfect example of the successes that are possible when we, as ordinary South Africans, take responsibility for our country’s safety and actively assist the police in ridding our society of criminality. Our communities must be liberated from the people who want to profit directly from the death of innocent South Africans.

We further call on our communities to join hands with the police in the fight against crime and to report all suspicious behaviour to the police. If we do this, the possibilities for the safety of South Africa will truly be endless.

Rev K R J MESHOE

Ms M A MOLEBATSI

ISLAMIC MILITANT ACTION AGAINST CHRISTIANS

(Member’s Statement)

Rev K R J MESHOE (ACDP): Hon Chairperson, many Christian researchers and monitoring groups have concluded that the evidence of Islamic militants’ hostility to Christians is overwhelming, with very limited attention being given to it in the international community. The year 2012, for example, was one of the worst for the persecution of religious minorities in Pakistan, where hundreds of Christians and Hindu girls were abducted, raped and forcibly converted to Islam.

In Syria, there are reports of Christians in the northern parts of the country being targeted for rape, kidnapping and murder by the extremists. Also, Christian churches have been vandalised throughout the country. The same is happening in Nigeria, Kenya and Sudan. The British parliament debated this worldwide persecution of Christians some time ago. One British member of parliament called it “the biggest story in the world that has never been told”. The ACDP wishes to see a similar debate taking place here too, as soon as it is practically possible.

Reports that Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, Isis, is also active in South Africa and recruiting citizens to fight in Iraq and Syria are worrying indeed. Iraq’s ambassador to South Africa, Dr Hushaim Al-Alawi, has confirmed that there is recruitment for Isis in South Africa, and he said he had shared the information with the Department of International Relations and Co-operation.

So far, he said, three South Africans who were fighting for the terrorist group have died. He subsequently claimed they died in an accident. [Time expired.]

Mr G S RADEBE

Rev K R J MESHOE

MALMÖ WORLD MARITIME UNIVERSITY

(Member’s Statement)

Mr G S RADEBE (ANC): Hon Chairperson, on 4 September 2013 the ANC-led government sent 27 South African students to the World Maritime University in Malmö, Sweden to take up scholarships to do maritime studies at Masters and Doctoral levels. Out of the 27 students, 22 studied the different areas of maritime studies at Master’s level and the others registered for Doctoral degrees.

Twenty-two Master’s students have completed their programme and graduated in November 2014. When the ANC government made the decision to empower these South Africans, they were selected from across all the demographics of the population of South Africa. This indeed is a good story to tell, particularly in light of Operation Phakisa, which focuses on the economy of the oceans. Indeed, South Africa is moving forward in making sure that it capacitates our people. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms A STEYN

Mr G S RADEBE

DA GROWTH IN WARD PREVIOUSLY RUN BY ANC

(Member’s Statement)

Ms A STEYN (DA): Hon House Chairperson, the DA has staged a significant surge in growth to win a rural Eastern Cape ward off the ANC, a gain from 33% in 2014 to 52% yesterday. [Applause.] The ward of Inkwanca Municipality, dissolved as a result of poor governance, comprises the towns of Molteno and Sterkstroom. The DA also showed growth of up to 2 percentage points in the other three wards in this municipality.

In the Western Cape, the residents of Grabouw came out in their numbers to endorse good governance in Theewaterskloof by giving the DA a 5% majority, which is the strongest in three years. This happened despite the violence and intimidation that defined the ANC campaign. Ward 2 in Overstrand Municipality was also retained, with a comfortable 75% majority.

Promising growth was shown in the KwaZulu-Natal Mooi-Mpofana Municipality, which is an ANC stronghold. The DA showed growth from 14% in 2014 to 21,5% yesterday in Ward 1. In Ward 2, growth was even more apparent, with the DA growing from 20% to 33% in these by-elections. Round after round, the by-elections continue to confirm one thing: The momentum is growing in the DA as we head towards the local elections.

The scene is truly set for the battle for the major towns and cities in 2016 when the people of Tshwane, Johannesburg and Nelson Mandela Bay will vote for effective and clean government by voting for the DA. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

MR B A RADEBE

Ms A STEYN

THANKING VOTERS FOR TURNING UP AT BY-ELECTIONS

(Member’s Statement)

Mr B A RADEBE (ANC): Hon Chairperson, the ANC would like to thank South African voters for turning up in large numbers for yesterday’s by-elections in 31 wards nationally. The voters continued to support the ANC by giving it victory in 26 out of 31 wards. [Applause.] This translates to 84% of wards won by the ANC, which shows that this is a crushing victory for the ANC. The ANC appreciates that the people still view the ANC as the only party with the track record to move South Africa forward. Thank you.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA

Mr B A RADEBE

SURVIVAL OF COUNTRY NOT DEPENDENT ON ANC

(Member’s Statement)

Mr M A PLOUAMMA (AgangSA): Hon Chairperson, AgangSA wants to add its comment and voice to the words spoken by the hon President when he said that the country depended on the ANC for its survival. That is not true. The survival of the country depends on the citizens of this country. South Africa must never fall with the ANC; the ANC must fall alone. [Applause.]

The words of the hon President show signs of the ruling party owning the state. We must be weary of such desperate statements as this is a clear sign that South Africa is not in good hands. I just want to say that we must all be ready for AgangSA as it is going to take over. [Laughter.]

Ms M F NKADIMENG

Mr M A PLOUAMA

TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING COLLEGES

(Member’s Statement)

MS M F NKADIMENG (ANC): Hon Chairperson, the National Development Plan categorically states that the technical and vocational education and training sector, or the college sector, is the backbone of technical and vocational education and training. Through the extension of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme to technical and vocational education and training college students and the efforts of the Department of Higher Education and Training, together with the financial support of the Sector Education and Training Authorities, the sector that was about to become extinct a few years ago has been revitalised.

I am pleased to recognise that TVET colleges are now seen as institutions of choice by many South African young people and adults. The Department of Higher Education and Training has exceeded enrolment targets planned for 2013-14; and the sector has reported that a target of 1 million will be achieved by 2015-16. This serves to acknowledge that the efforts by the government to grow this sector and increase the intermediate, occupationally directed programmes are yielding results. [Applause.]

Ms P T VAN DAMME

Ms M F NKADIMENG

DA-RUN WESTERN CAPE BEST-RUN PROVINCE IN SOUTH AFRICA

(Member’s Statement)

Ms P T VAN DAMME (DA): Hon Chairperson, yesterday was yet another proud moment for the DA when the Auditor-General released his annual report. The report indicates very clearly that the DA-run Western Cape is by far the best governed province in the country ... [Applause.] ... with 78% of departments in the province producing clean audits. Gauteng comes in at a very distant second place with 54%.

The Auditor-General singled out the efforts of the DA-run province, stating that in the Western Cape, “political and administrative leadership sets the tone for clean audit outcomes at all provincial Cabinet meetings”.

Sadly, these results unfortunately show how the rest of the provinces under the ANC continue to be mismanaged. Sadly, in the Eastern Cape only 15% received clean audits. In the North West and Limpopo things are looking particularly bad, with only 3% and 4% of departments and entities receiving clean audits.

It is also of major concern that the national government, KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo regressed in their audit findings. The Auditor-General cited a lack of internal controls, political will and a major lack of consequences as the reasons for failing to drive clean audit outcomes in ANC-run departments.

The fact of the matter is that if a government cannot manage its finances properly it cannot deliver services. The DA has once again shown that we are the party most capable of managing the people’s money with integrity and maximising delivery. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms C N NCUBE-NDABA

Ms P T VAN DAMME

NEW TB PROGRAMME FOR PRISONS AND MINING TOWNS

(Member’s Statement)

Ms C N NCUBE-NDABA (ANC): Chairperson, in its endeavour to address the challenges of tuberculosis, the ANC welcomes the committed bid by the Department of Health to launch a programme to test 150 000 inmates in 242 correctional service facilities and to conduct TB screening of 500 000 miners in six mining districts. This will include the family members of those who test positive for TB and children who attend schools or crèches in the mining towns.

The launch of this programme seeks to ensure that every single person in correctional service facilities will have to be screened for TB, as well as the families of those who have tested positive. This programme will be launched on 24 March 2015, on World TB Day.

TB kills about 50 000 people per annum in South Africa and the incidence of TB in mines in South Africa is the highest of any working community anywhere in the world. Therefore, the ANC welcomes the initiative to intensify the screening and treatment of vulnerable groups in correctional services facilities, in mines and in mining communities, in order to ensure improved health outcomes for all South Africans. The department will also intensify ... [Time expired.]

MINISTERIAL RESPONSES - The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS - Ms C N NCUBE-NDABA

DA-RUN WESTERN CAPE BEST-RUN PROVINCE IN SOUTH AFRICA

(Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I sincerely doubt that the residents of Taiwan in Khayelitsha would believe that this is the best-run government in South Africa. Furthermore, I wish to indicate that the ANC government, led by President Zuma, is resolute in its commitment to address the challenges confronting South Africa.

While some in this House use parliamentary procedures to continue their campaign of hatred against President Zuma and the ANC, the people of South Africa know that the ANC has firmly and courageously withstood the worst hatred in its long, unwavering struggle for freedom. We will, with President Zuma, continue to execute our ANC-led programme of action as set out in our well-crafted Medium-Term Strategic Framework. We are committed, as government, led by President Zuma, to execute our programme.

To those who are desperate to have President Zuma answer Questions, we urge them to use their new alliance to create a climate of order that will allow proper conduct in the House. All the new allies know that they created a climate that stopped President Zuma from answering questions in this House. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

SURVIVAL OF COUNTRY NOT DEPENDENT ON ANC

(Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chairperson, I would like to respond to the issue that was raised by the hon member from AgangSA. Experiences in this House follow the following pattern. If you are sitting on that side, you either come this way, or you go that way, or you out the door. [Laughter.] Those who were here kept on drifting that way and ultimately out the door. I wonder if you are going to survive the next election and come back. So, if you have ambitions to rule this country, take that into account. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION

ANC WELCOMES MINIMUM WAGE FOR DOMESTIC WORKERS

(Minister’s Response)

IsiZulu:

THE MINISTER OF LABOUR: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo wale Ndlu. Ngifisa ukubonga umhlonishwa osukume kuKhongolose obekhuluma ngomhlahlandlela olawula imithetho yokuphathwa kwabasebenzi basezindlini. Ngiyafisa ukucela abasebenzi basezindlini ukuba bahlanganyele uma kunezithangami zokulalelwa kwezimvo zemiphakathi lapho sisuke sibukeza umhlahlandlela olawula imithetho yokuphathwa kwabasebenzi ngokuhlukana kwemisebenzi yabo.

English:

I also want to encourage employers, including members of this House – because many of them employ domestic workers – to pay their domestic workers the living wage because the sectoral determination is just an intervention by the government. Secondly, register domestic workers under the Social Protection Floor so that they are also able to be secured for short-term insurance.

Furthermore, we encourage all employers to come on board and domestic workers to participate in the public hearings on the national minimum wage.

IsiZulu:

Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

The MINISTER OF LABOUR

DA GROWTH IN WARDS PREVIOUSLY RUN BY ANC

(Minister’s Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, in response to the DA motion, we had debated the issue around the President’s attendance in Parliament. I think the contradiction is that there was agreement on one morning that conditions would be created in the House for the President to attend, and then that afternoon that party wanted a motion of censure in the President. We note that they were asked to withdraw; the Leader of the Opposition wanted to withdraw it, but they failed to do so.

On the other issue of the by-elections, as members have said, we had 31 ward elections yesterday, of which the ANC won the overwhelming majority, namely 26. [Applause.] Obviously, every little party that won is going to try and say something good about it but I do not think the IFP’s victory, with less than 50% of the vote, is a sweeping victory. To the DA, as far as Mpofana is concerned, there are four wards and the ANC won all of them. There are three proportional representation seats, of which the DA won only one, which is what they have had for the last 20 years. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SEVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT

WORLD MARITIME UNIVERSITY

(Minister’s Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, let me welcome the statement made by the member of the ANC, hon Sibusiso. The World Maritime University in Sweden offers maritime studies at Master’s and PhD levels. The Department of Transport, together with the Department of Higher Education and Training and our state-owned entity, the SA Maritime Safety Authority, Samsa, secured 30 scholarships for South Africans of all race groups to study at the World Maritime University.

This agreement will remain valid for five years and is subject to extension after five years. It must be said that in 30 years of the World Maritime University’s existence, only five South Africans have received such qualifications from the university. However, this year, under the leadership of the current Ministry and Ministers, South Africa had the largest number of graduates to obtain Master’s degrees at the university’s graduation. Of the 22 students that we sent to the university, all of them graduated. [Applause.]

Of all the graduates from all over the world, one student from South Africa, by the name of Gareth, obtained the highest marks by far of all the students and proceeded to receive the university’s chancellor’s award. The chancellor, Mr Sekimizu, is also the secretary-general of the International Maritime Organisation.

The class of 2014 started in September this year and four students are still studying towards their PhD at the university. This is an excellent story to tell. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT

TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND TRAINING COLLEGES

(Minister’s Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, we welcome the statement made by hon Nkadimeng. It is true that we are turning our technical and vocational education and training, TVET, colleges into institutions of first choice. It is also true that we have more than doubled our enrolment in the TVET system. In 2010, enrolment was at 300 000, while there are now more than 800 000 students studying at our TVET colleges. We are happy that our young people are heeding our call to increase the production of midlevel skills in the country. We are also happy with the efforts made to foster an alignment between our sector education and training authorities, Setas, our TVET colleges and employers.

Lastly, I do want to say that the President was right when he addressed the ANC Youth League’s national consultative conference yesterday and said that should things go wrong with the ANC, then everything will go wrong with the country. After all, it is the ANC government that has provided more than 3 million housing opportunities to South Africans. We have provided access to water, electricity and roads, especially to our rural people, and we will continue to do more in our endeavour to create a better life for all our people. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

FIRST ORDER

MINISTERIAL RESPONSES

ESCALATING CRISIS AT ESKOM

(Debate in terms of Rule 103 – Ms N W A Michael)

Setswana:

MOETELEDIPELE WA LEKOKOKGANETSO: Modulasetilo, Motlatsamoporesitente, maloko a Palamente, bagaetsho, dumelang. Re biditse kgangkgolo ena gonne re bona gore ke lebaka le le amang MaAforika Borwa botlhe.

English

It is now commonly accepted that we are in the midst of a full-blown energy crisis. This crisis has been brought on by the failure of the ANC government and Eskom to take note of all the warning signs and plan ahead.

Now this crisis is holding our economy to ransom and making a mockery of our attempts to create jobs. The energy crisis affects everyone in our land. From industries that require it for production to people who require power to cook or light to study, electricity has become a basic need.

Hon members, when the lights go off, it is not just an inconvenience; it directly affects our quality of life, the safety of our people and their security.

Hon members, energy is the lifeblood of our economy. In fact, energy is so important to economic growth that, in 2012, the World Economic Forum gave it a primary position in the maintenance and improvement of living standards of people the world over.

South Africa is, in fact, no exception. We have been left with the legacy of an economy that is extremely energy intensive. Even with the best economic policies in place, without the underlying energy infrastructure to support them, our economy will not prosper. When the energy supply is unstable, economic growth slows, business confidence fails and foreign and domestic investors become cautious. Most importantly, jobs are lost and unemployment increases. The crisis therefore represents a fundamental threat to our economic wellbeing.

Yet, by all accounts, we should not have reached this dire position to begin with. Without negating the historic underinvestment in energy capacity, we must acknowledge that, as early as 1998, government was made aware of the impending crisis via the White Paper on Energy Policy. Due to the inaction on the part of both the ANC government and Eskom, this peaked in late 2007, when nationwide load-shedding started to leave hard-working South Africans sitting in the dark.

Sixteen years later, the situation shows little sign of improvement. The energy crisis has just become another item on the long list of government failures that are preventing the good people of South Africa from realising their potential.

Government must take responsibility for this crisis and show strong leadership. Therefore, hon Pandor and hon Jeffery, it is not because we hate the President; it is that he must come and account for this energy crisis right here today and answer questions.

Hon Jeffery, I moved the motion of censure because the President does not want to come and talk about the energy crisis that is before us. It was my decision and we are sticking with it.

They must act decisively to avert the escalating crisis through better planning and effective management. The fact of the matter is that Eskom is simply not delivering, while those who are responsible are not in fact being held responsible. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. Deputy Minister, proceed.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, I wanted to ask if the hon member would take a question. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon members! Hon member, you have been asked whether you will take a question.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: No, I will not.

The time has come for us to engage in a frank debate about the future of Eskom, a company that is severely undercapitalised and overindebted. The DA firmly believes that the only way to solve the crisis will be with greater participation from the private sector and the introduction of independent power producers.

Yesterday, Eskom announced that its profits have plummeted by R4,7 billion compared to last year — a massive drop of 24%. It does not make economic sense to prop up this ailing giant with continued government bailouts.

It is clear that this monolithic organisation is too large for the efficient management of the national grid. This necessitates the division of the company into separate entities that can be more responsive to customer demand. The only way that we will be able to solve this crisis is by breaking the monopoly stronghold that Eskom has over the energy sector and to introduce some much-needed competition.

It is time that the ANC puts ideological sentiment aside and does what is in fact best for the people of this country. The solution to the historic underinvestment in energy generation capacity does not lie in state-sponsored mega projects such as the Rosatom nuclear deal. The Rosatom deal will undoubtedly suffer from the same cost and time escalations that were seen at Medupi and Kusile and will leave our people in the dark for years to come. I therefore would like to ask the Minister of Energy, Tina Joemat-Petterson, to take the following measures as urgent steps.

Firstly, finalise the Independent System and Market Operator Bill, ISMO, that the President committed to in 2010 and again this year and table it before Parliament in this coming year. Secondly, promulgate the long-awaited Gas Utilisation Master Plan so that investment can be made to start building up our gas infrastructure. This will lead to energy generation units within the next five years.

Thirdly, prioritise the diversification of energy supply sources by upscaling the renewable energy programs. Finally, review the Integrated Resources Plan of 2010 in order to capitalise on the huge global changes that have occurred in the energy sector over the last four years. South Africa should capitalise on technological advancements that allow for energy production at a lower price.

Hon members, our GDP is currently growing at 1,4%. With a stable energy supply, most economists argue that we could in fact be growing at 2,5%. That would enable us to create the requisite jobs that South Africans need. If we do not, hon members, we will reach a point of no return. Let us take direct action and ensure that we can provide energy for our people. Let us act now. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA

THE LEADER OF OPPOSITION

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chairperson, before I go to the debate, let me begin by saying that I stand here today to remind us all that the moments of history are very few. Hon Chair, allow me to repeat this because I want people to understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that moments of history are very few. Indeed, the 1994 democratic breakthrough was a rare moment in our history. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members and hon member Khawula! [Interjections.]

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: It was during this rare moment that the power was transferred from the minority racist white regime to the overwhelming majority of the people of our country. Power was transferred from the apartheid regime characterised by colonialism, oppression and exploitation to a democratic government based on the will of the people. It is therefore important that all our people do not give even a quarter to the forces of darkness and the forces of reaction that are hell-bent on undermining the democratic will of our people. [Interjections.] If the DA ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, order! Can we please ... [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections]

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: If the DA opposition alliance wants to rule ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Letsatsi-Duba, please take your seat. Hon members, there is a member on the podium and she is speaking. Please lower your voices to allow the speaker to be heard! [Interjections.] Order, hon members!

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chair, I was saying that if the DA-led alliance wanted to rule this country, they must first get an overwhelming mandate from our people. It cannot be that the anarchy and mayhem we have seen in this House, the insults, lack of respect and hatred ... [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: ... become the order of the day in this House. [Interjections.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Hon Chairperson …

Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chairperson, let me now go to the ... [Interjections.]

Ms M S KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Letsatsi-Duba, please take your seat. Yes, hon member, what is your point of order?

IsiZulu:

Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngifuna ukwazi ukuthi angangiphendula? Kukhona umbuzo omncane engifuna ukumbuza wona. [Uhleko.]

English:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Letsatsi-Duba, would you respond to a question?

IsiZulu:

Nk D B Letsatsi-Duba: Mama uKhawula, ngizokuphendula ngaphandle.

English:

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Okay. Thank you very much.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chair, let me ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Hon House Chair!

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: ... assist the hon member from the DA, the hon Maimane. [Interjections.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Hon House Chair! [Interjections.]

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: I want to put this debate into context. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon Letsatsi-Duba! Yes, hon member?

Mr S J MASANGO: Hon House Chair, the debate for today is a very, very important debate. We are debating the crisis and what the people of South Africa are actually expecting us to debate. The speaker here is not really ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, what is your point of order?

Mr S J MASANGO: My point of order is this: According to Rule 50, we are supposed to stick to the topic of the debate. The hon member is not being relevant to the topic. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you, hon member. Order, hon members!

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chair, let me assist our learned ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Letsatsi-Duba, please wait just a minute. Order, hon members! We are having a debate. Can we please stick to the debate? And this applies to all speakers, without me being selective. During the engagement that a member makes, as part of their context they make other statements, as happened with the first speaker. So, I will allow the hon Letsatsi-Duba to continue. Can we please allow ourselves to listen, even if it may be a bit unpalatable. It is the course of the debate. Hon Letsatsi-Duba, proceed.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: ... let me put our debate into context. [Interjections.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, the Rules are clear. Can you please assist the House: Are you saying two wrongs make a right? The hon member has not said anything about the energy crisis. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Ndlozi, I did not say two wrongs made a right. I made a ruling and then advised what we should all do. So, in terms of the Rules, what we are saying is very clear. Can we be a bit patient - all of us - and allow the speaker on the podium to be heard. Then we will respond when our time comes in the debate. The hon Letsatsi-Duba, continue.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chair, in contextualising this debate, I want to say there is no crisis. [Interjections.] There is no crisis! [Interjections.] I seek your protection, hon Chair!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members! Order, hon members! Hon members! Can we please allow the speaker on the podium to speak!

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: I said I wanted to contextualise the debate. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The hon Waters …

Mr M WATERS: Chair … [Interjections.]

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Allow me to put this into context! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Letsatsi-Duba …

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Allow me to give the reason I am saying there is no crisis. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Letsatsi-Duba, please take your seat. Yes, hon Waters?

Mr M WATERS: Hon Chair, I know we are in the silly season, but the hon member’s comments are totally out of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Waters, that is not a point of order. Hon Letsatsi-Duba, can you please proceed with your speech.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Chairperson, the context of the debate is that any debate needs a theoretical grounding when addressing the problem statement and the challenges identified through that problem statement. It follows that solutions and recommendations to the perceived challenges must therefore be reflected in a scientific understanding of the role played by the state-owned enterprises in the economy of our country.

Now, the paradigm of this debate is whether we are on course with Eskom in driving the strategic direction of the economy in order to transform, using the electricity in the economic growth development. The optimal alignment and co-ordination of mandates and operations of Eskom, in the broader objectives of a developmental state, is what must be addressed in this House. [Interjections.] The broader aim must be to restructure the economy in order to create decent job opportunities, improve the current disparities with respect to income distribution levels and enhance the quality of services in our communities.

Now, in this context, Eskom was not created to maximise profits nor to in incur losses. Rather its existence is for the purpose of driving the developmental agenda. The dual mandate of Eskom ... [Interjections.] Listen to me! The dual mandate of Eskom is to achieve a balance between the required level of self-funding and undertaking developmental projects that the private sector would ordinarily not do. What does this mean? This means that Eskom is tasked with costly development mandates that are strategically positioned to generate the revenues sufficient to cover the costs associated with executing its respective mandates.

The link between the country’s savings levels and the funding of development is central in this debate. Emphasis needs to be placed on mobilising national savings in order to support the strategic and long-term investment in these programmes. Without this, the Industrial Policy Action Plan will not succeed. Industry needs the large infrastructure programme and the funding of the state in the reindustrialisation of the economy, and Eskom is central to this. This is the experience of a number of countries all over the world. Eskom’s role in stimulating the manufacturing sector is critical as well.

What this debate must also reinforce and strengthen is the perspective that Eskom must be strengthened as a powerful instrument of economic transformation, while addressing systems and operational contradictions and remaining firmly within the control of the state in order to have the capacity to respond effectively and efficiently to the developmental agenda of the state.

The neoliberal notion that selling strategic state assets to the private sector is going to inherently make things better defies the empirical research of a number of countries, for instance in the Unites States of America and Spain …

Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Chair…

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: ... where privatisation has proved to have resulted in poor performance ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Letsatsi-Duba!

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: ... deterioration of service delivery and disruption to industrial growth. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, I heard you.

Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Chair, please recognise me on a point of order! The hon speaker there promised to use an okapi knife to kill me. So, I just want to find out how many Okapi knives she has. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Reneiloe! Hon Reneiloe and Ma’am Khawula, the point of order is not sustained as it does not relate to this debate.

Ms N R MASHABELA: But hon Chair, you must take us seriously! I want to know how many Okapi knives she has! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Hon Ma’am Reneiloe, can you please take your seat? Please take your seat! [Interjections.]

Ms N R MASHABELA: Yes, Chair, but I want an answer! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Please take your seat! Hon member, the issue you are raising does not apply to the debate. The hon Khawula raised a question earlier and asked if the hon member on the podium could take her question. The hon member said she would answer her outside. If there are issues of concern from hon members that relate to their health or safety, there are structures for dealing with those issues. [Interjections.] Order, hon member! Ma’am Reneiloe, can we please be in order and allow the debate to proceed. Hon Letsatsi-Duba, please proceed.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chair, I was brought up in a very decent family, hence I do not even know what an Okapi is. [Interjections.] With regard to Eskom, the ANC policy clearly guides what its mandate is, which is to build the capacity of the state in order to pursue the objectives of a developmental state, to ensure that it remains financially viable and profitable, and to support and lead in strategic government-led developmental objectives within the realm of a clearly defined public mandate of pursuing an overarching industrialisation programme.

Both the New Growth Path and the National Development Plan give direction to Eskom. The New Growth Path, consistent with the ANC resolutions, positions Eskom - a government commercial entity - as a key player in driving economic growth. The National Development Plan provides a diagnosis and makes proposals for the effectiveness of this institution.

There is a natural conflict between the commercial interests of Eskom and the state’s developmental interests. There is nothing... [Interjections.]

Mr M S MABIKA: Hon Chair, may I rise on a point of order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): What is the point of order, hon member?

Mr M S MABIKA: Can the member take the simplest question ever? [Interjections.]

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: Hon Chairperson, I will not be able to take a question.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you. You may proceed.

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA: There is nothing contradictory in this, as some would want us to believe, even where there are mixed results when assessed against the competing but equally prioritised objectives of economic and sociopolitical objectives. It is important to understand that the interests of the public in business enterprises are primary to the ANC-led government.

Going forward, a renewed sense of urgency to transform the lives of our people and change the structure of the economy is central to the agenda of the ANC. The mandate from the electorate is to implement radical socioeconomic change. This means fundamentally changing the lives of poor and working people for the better by rolling back unemployment, inequality and poverty. It calls for bold steps to place the economy on a qualitatively different path.

In order to drive inclusive growth, create employment opportunities and transform society, the most important and immediate priorities that must be addressed are energy and achieving security of supply within an appropriate mix. Resolving the electricity energy supply constraints and developing the manufacturing base in the industry, as the hon Maimane said, are key to ensuring certainty for investment across the country.

Any debate on Eskom raises questions about the structure of the energy industry and key to this are the appropriate regulatory and other measures. The reality is that all these are being addressed with a view to prioritising energy security. Eskom will continue to play a critical role in the future supply of energy, including the new initiatives to generate energy. That is the reason that I said there is no crisis. The role of the private sector will be addressed in this context to ensure an appropriate mix. The hon Maimane has already made those proposals and we are addressing that. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon members, I wish to remind everyone that this matter was requested and put by one of us, because there was the view that it is a matter of public importance. I think it is incumbent on all of us - if we believe in what the Whippery representing the various parties have indicated by agreeing in the National Assembly Programming Committee that this matter must serve on the Order Paper today - to ensure that we treat this matter as such. When handling this debate as a matter of public importance, I think our conduct is also important.

Mr K Z MORAPELA

Ms D B LETSATSI-DUBA

Mr K Z MORAPELA: Hon House Chair, Eskom is an organisation that is in deep leadership and financial trouble and it seems that the ANC-led government is clueless on how to radically tackle the problems faced by this power utility. For the past 20 years the ANC-led government has failed to make sure that this power utility operates and runs in a manner that is sustainable.

Sesotho: (15:52:53)

Ho na le pina ya tshwene eo e leng hore e hlotse e binwa mona, ya ho re: “Good story to tell.” Empa o bona ka mesebetsi, “Good story to tell” o tlamehile o e bone ka mesebetsi. E ke ke ya ba pina ya tshwene eo re bolellwang hore “Good story to tell” empa batho ba hloka motlakase makeisheneng moo ba phelang teng. Ho a tsebisahala hore ha ho le lefifi, botsotsi bona ba bona ba batla ho bo etsa lefifing ho se letho le bonahalang. [Mahofi.]

English:

We have always argued that we need alternative sources of energy in South Africa to counter and minimise energy challenges and it seems that this call is falling on deaf ears. This state-owned power utility is responsible for the economic growth of the country and the provision of electricity to South Africans, particularly the poorest of the poor. This power utility is characterised by a number of problems, which dates many years back and, to date, the ANC-led government has failed to resolve the challenges faced by Eskom.

The organisation is in a funding crisis. It is financially embattled and has accumulated huge debt over the years, which it is unable to service. The National Energy Regulator has granted Eskom a 12,7% rise in the electricity price for the next year. This price hike is indeed unfortunate for both the consumer and business and it is likely to put more pressure on the already ailing economy.

Eskom faces a R225 billion funding shortfall for five years, which runs until March 2018, and it cannot generate enough cash to service the debt. It needs to pay for the completion of a new power station.

Sesotho:

Taba eo re e utlwileng dikgweding tse fetileng hore ho ne ho entswe lerata ka yona, mekete ya tshwarwa hore mathata a ho tingwa ha motlakase [load shedding] a fetile hobane jwale Medupi Power Station e tla re kgontsha ho ba le mabone kahare ho matlo a rona. Empa ho ntse ho bonahala hore ha re ntse re ya pele, mathata a ntse a nwelella, sekepe se a teba sa mokga ona o busang o hlolehang ke hore o tsamaise Aforika Borwa ka tsela e phethahetseng.

English:

The R20 billion injection by the National Treasury is a clear indication that the ANC-led government is not taking the electricity challenges in this country seriously. This money is nowhere near enough to reverse years of underinvestment and the lack of maintenance of power infrastructure. Some of the problems include significant delays in bringing new power stations online, the recent load-shedding challenges and escalating costs.

Eskom has no capacity to plan its capital spending and has serious operational inefficiencies. All these have come to haunt the country today. The power utility is also engulfed by deep-seated infrastructure maintenance. Eskom’s inability to resolve labour disputes is making it difficult for them to solicit investors and to secure additional funding. It is embarrassing that 20 years into. . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M HLENGWA

Mr K Z MORAPELA

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon House Chairperson, when the hon Letsatsi-Duba, the chair of the Public Enterprises committee, said there was no crisis, I almost jumped out of my chair because there is a crisis! Load-shedding is a crisis; Eskom is in crisis. I am inclined to believe that perhaps her thought process is experiencing load-shedding. [Laughter.]

Let the irony not be lost on us that this is a snap debate that has now been called on a crisis that has gradually been unfolding for the last 10 years. There is nothing sudden about this crisis. Perhaps it is just that we are now faced with the rather dark realisation that throwing billions more of taxpayers’ money at the problem will not solve it. Money cannot rectify incompetence, poor management and a lack of adequate and reasonable planning on Eskom’s part. Eskom is in ashes and is seeking to destroy this country along with it. What an indictment, of course, on this government. We have truly failed the people of South Africa.

The IFP calls for far greater resource allocation to alternative green energy research and development and the opening up of platforms for private and public-private energy partnerships in order to allow as much energy as possible to flow into the electricity grid. Privatisation must also not be summarily ruled out as the utility's proposed tariff hikes are beyond the means of most South Africans.

We are already operating in a challenging and some may even say hostile global economic environment. Without the energy required to run our industries and economy, we will surely find ourselves floundering. No amount of ruling party rhetoric will switch on the lights.

While Eskom is busy lamenting its fate, it saw fit to pay nearly R23 million last year to the now ex-chief executive officer, Mr Brian Dames, including a R5 million ending bonus; and this while the rest of the country is wondering how we are going to keep the lights on and our businesses running.

As we approach this festive season, instead of the usual pomp and cheer, our citizens can now look forward to the voice of Eskom’s spokesperson, Mr Andrew Etzinger, on our radios, advising us of the latest electricity crisis and load-shedding schedule. How many jobs will be lost this festive season due to restaurants and retail outlets not being able to keep the lights on and the tills running?

Make no mistake, Hon Chairperson, this is a crisis and we are now at ground zero. It is time for an immediate intervention at Eskom. We need a no-holds-barred, frank assessment of the state of the energy supply by all stakeholders in our country and an immediately implementable turnaround strategy put into place; a strategy with set, defined, agreed-upon and realisable objectives which, when met, will lead us out of the energy catastrophe we now find ourselves in.

In this entire crisis, Eskom and the government have been found wanting. In truth, Eskom needs a total overhaul, and we need to do that now. It is never too late to start making the right decisions, but let us not fool ourselves and come here and tell a bad story, saying there is no crisis. There is a crisis. Wake up and smell the coffee. [Applause.]

Mr S C SHELEMBE

Mr M HLENGWA

MR S C SHELEMBE: Hon House Chairperson, hon members, as the NFP we believe that Eskom is not just another state-owned enterprise in perpetual crisis. It is far more important than that. It represents almost our entire electricity system. Electricity is the foundation of our economy and, frankly, the foundation of our broader society. If SA Airways fails, we can fly British Airways. If the Post Office fails, we can use a courier service or send an e-mail. But when Eskom fails, we are all plunged into darkness.

We can debate the reason for Eskom’s inability to keep the lights on for hours but that will not bring us to a quick-fix solution. There is no quick-fix solution and we have to agree in this House that we are in a crisis of epic proportions.

The declining Eskom standards and ability to fulfil its mandate can squarely be laid at the feet of the ANC’s propensity for cadre deployment and the willingness of the ANC-led government to turn a blind eye to the mediocrity and substantial underperformance of Eskom management over the past 20 years. Moreover, our current electricity supply crisis is deepened by the foolhardy reluctance of the ANC-led government as it clings to the monopoly of electricity generation and does not do enough to encourage the introduction of renewable energy sources.

The major objection to the introduction of renewable energy in the past has been the high price per kilowatt hour to generate such electricity and the intermittent nature of such supply. However, the cost of such renewable energy compares favourably to the current cost of electricity generated by Eskom. Wind-generated energy currently costs 74 cent per kilowatt hour to generate, and solar energy costs 99 cent per kilowatt hour. In contrast, the projected inclusive cost from the Medupi power station is probably going to be R1,50 per kilowatt hour, and that of Kusile even higher.

As far as the intermittent nature of alternative energy is concerned, we submit that the reduced cost of generating such electricity will make it feasible to increase reliance on standby gas turbines to compensate for the occasional shortfall in provision. In addition, electricity storage technology is rapidly developing and the cost of such technology is reducing on a year-by-year basis, making this an increasingly attractive option to consider and invest in.

The biggest challenge to the continuous supply of electricity in South Africa, however, lies in the monopolistic nature of Eskom. The NFP believes that opening up the market for electricity provision to the private sector will provide an incentive for massive capital investment and, through competition, will ensure that the provision of electricity will be stabilised in the shortest possible time frame.

The lumbering and bureaucratic process of forward planning by a state-controlled monopoly such as Eskom has shown to be ineffective. Sadly, it is the average South African citizen and our industries that are paying the price for the lack of foresight and planning while the executive management of Eskom continue to reap disproportional rewards for their incompetence and political loyalty to the ANC-led government.

To conclude, the NFP urges the government to investigate ways to incentivise households to embrace solar and other renewable means of generating energy to reduce the demand of household electricity on the national grid. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr N L S KWANKWA

Mr S C SHELEMBE

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Deputy Speaker and hon members, once more Eskom has embarked on load-shedding due to its inability to keep up with the demand for electricity. Needless to say, load-shedding shuttles the growth potential of the South African economy because it makes it difficult for businesses to embark on expansion programmes that require energy, thus undermining investor confidence.

Today many investors shun the South African economy due to the power crisis. However, the major contributing factor this time around was due to negligence and the poor maintenance at one of our power stations, Majuba. This is unacceptable. The delay in bringing other power stations on line is also a problem. It is a serious problem that requires attention.

Minister, the public needs to know what led to the collapse of one of the silos at Majuba and whether the maintenance work had been and is being carried out regularly at Majuba and other power stations around the country in order to prevent the further recurrence of the situation. We also request you to take the nation into your confidence by detailing the steps that Eskom is taking or is going to take to make sure that the power supply is sustainable in South Africa.

Deputy Speaker, we are aware that the National Energy Regulator of South Africa approved tariff hikes that would provide additional revenue for the financial year 2015/2016 for Eskom. This means that once more we have to provide some protection to the poor from the tariff increases, because tariff increases always hit the poor the hardest. In this regard, the UDM proposes that the current 50 free electricity units given to poor households be increased to 100.

Deputy Speaker, I know that the power crisis makes everything look like doom and gloom. However, as the expression goes, every dark cloud has a silver lining. The growing number of businesses that invest in solar panels and other forms of renewable energy to produce electricity is an opportunity that would not have arisen had Eskom not experienced power supply constraints.

We therefore need to redouble our efforts to create an environment that is conducive for them and others in the private sector to play a role in this industry, especially the renewable energy entrepreneurs situated in the former homelands, whose attempts to open renewable energy businesses are frustrated by complex land tenure systems in those areas.

IsiXhosa:

Mandithethe inqaku lokugqibela. Sithi ...

English:

...if you look at simple economics ...

IsiXhosa:

... kuthethwa nge ...

English:

... supply and demand. All these measures are intended to address supply site constraints. In the future, there will come a time when supply is going to outstrip demand and the price of electricity ...

IsiXhosa:

... iza kuphinda ihle

English:

... it is straightforward, but while ...

IsiXhosa:

... sisazama ukwenza loo nto ...

English:

... and I think what we need to do is to make sure that ...

IsiXhosa:

... siyenza ngendlela ...

English:

... sustainable energy supply to South Africa. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr A D ALBERTS

Mr N L S KWANKWA

Mr A D ALBERTS: Deputy Speaker, South Africa can be called the Titanic of Africa. Economically, she was the largest, until recently. The Republic of South Africa’s Titanic is also known to be unsinkable. She is managed by a company called the ANC. The ANC makes use of the management system named transformation and is powered by coal-fired engines built and managed by Eskom.

Post 1994, the good ship RSA Titanic gave hope to the rest of the world. It was the best of times but it has become the worst of times. I have to emphasise that it was boldly declared that the RSA Titanic was unsinkable - not even God could sink her, for the ANC management would stay in control until Jesus came. Words of hubris that make one cringe with embarrassment.

Like the original Titanic, the RSA Titanic faces a series of dangerous icebergs, especially an insidious one called the Fiscal Cliff. Yet unlike the original Titanic, the RSA Titanic did not even make it to iceberg-infested waters. No, instead, her engines gave in due to a lack of maintenance and planning.

The ANC management could not even stick to a very simple screenplay but tripped itself up by turning the love story that the world expected to unfold into a farce that would make the comedy director Mel Brooks proud and horrify James Cameron. For what transpired is a comedy of errors and horrors where, among other events, the coal silo at Majuba imploded while the boiler at Dhuva exploded, leaving a gaping hole in the ship.

The ANC management did not even need an iceberg to sink the RSA Titanic. They simple did it themselves. In the meantime the passengers demand leadership, for everyone is about to drown. However, here is the thing: The captain is gone. No one knows where he is.

Afrikaans:

Waar is die kaptein van die skip?

English:

It is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. Is he visiting other ships? Is he splashing in his pool at Nkandla? Have aliens abducted him?

Afrikaans:

Niemand weet nie!

English:

All the while, the unsinkable Titanic is sinking.

Afrikaans:

Intussen besluit die bestuurshoof van die Eskom-span dat hy die skip gaan verlaat met ’n vet tjek. Intussen vergeet die ANC bestuur en die Eskom-span dat hulle eintlik verantwoordelik is vir die lewens van almal aan boord die RSA Titanic. Die meeste mense kan nie ontsnap nie, want daar is nie genoeg reddingsbote nie.

Die skip neem vinnig water op; mense begin verdrink en sterf aan blootstelling. Die sinkende onsinkbare RSA Titanic is nie meer ’n grap nie, maar wel ’n ontvouende humanitêre krisis.

English:

Within this unfolding tragedy, the passengers are waking up to the fact that it is the ANC and its transformation policy that has doomed everyone. As the awakening grows, so will the new movement to declare transformation a crime against humanity. And so it should be. [Applause.]

Ms D Z Rantho

Mr A D ALBERTS

Ms D Z RANTHO: There is really no crisis. [Laughter.] Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon Members of Parliament and our guests, good afternoon. In debating the financial sustainability of Eskom and its responsibility to provide the nation with electricity that is both affordable and consistent, the ANC-led government cannot be an uninterested party nor can its role be confined to that of a mere regulator.

Various state initiatives across the globe within the emerging market sphere have given credence to the developmental state model and system as the viable alternative to the traditional notion of neoliberal privatisation and deregulation. This is even more plausible when viewed from the angle of the current geographical locations of portfolio and foreign direct investment flows, which are largely flowing as a result of the Brics countries initiatives.

Central features of robust economic growth in China, India, Russia and Brazil play a role in state-owned enterprises such as Eskom. Globally, state-owned entities such as Eskom are used to enhance the self-sufficiency of the state and develop in-house capabilities to manage several strategic economic growth drivers.

The contribution of Eskom and other SOEs and their subsidiaries to the GDP is considerable - around 8%. Globally, SOEs are created by governments to support strategies for economic development and to promote public interest. Some inherent tensions between the interest of the public and that of the enterprises have developed. The existing level of tension is more conspicuous when there is a climate in which the socio-political objectives of government are not clearly defined or articulated.

What are those objectives and conditions? The past six months have been among the most challenging for Eskom and perhaps the country at large. This was not only in relation to ensuring electricity security, given the tight system, but also the positioning of the rating agency Standard and Poor’s. It is they who placed the entity on credit watch in June in light of the financial challenges that the entity was facing.

It was in this context and the need to place Eskom on a sustainable financial path that Cabinet approved the support package that should pave the way for Eskom’s long-term sustainability. [Applause.] Unlike what we have heard from the neoliberal camp, falsely claiming that this is a bail out, the package seeks to address the funding gap that was as a result of the tariff determination, which was lower than anticipated. The details of the package have been communicated by the Minister of Finance in his Medium Term Budget Policy Statement and included the fact that at least R23 billion will be allocated to Eskom to strengthen its balance sheet as it rolls out the massive capital programme.

Furthermore, government will consider converting the existing R60 billion loan into equity, while Eskom will be raising additional debt of R50 billion over and above the R200 billion approved. The overall objective is really to ensure that Eskom is financially sustainable and, in the process, reduce Eskom’s dependence on government balanced with affordability of both consumers and the broader economy.

Eskom remains a state-owned entity and one of the largest utilities globally with internationally recognised expertise and technological capabilities. The lowest cost option for adding new capacity is to restore the performance of the existing Eskom fleet as compared to the cost of new build, including transmission; environmental and climate change compliance issues and time frames for the introduction of new capacity.

The recent decision by the National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa, to liquidate the Regulatory Clearing Account balance of R7,8 billion in favour of Eskom in the 2015-16 financial year also comes as a positive step towards ensuring long-term financial sustainability.

The regulatory methodology is working, and this will result in an additional 4,7% tariff increase in the 2015-16 financial year. However, this will not negatively affect marginal groups. In this regard, the acceleration of demand management measures to improve energy efficiency and measures to cushion the poor, thereby assisting users to decrease their overall electricity consumption and the associated purchases, are ready for immediate implementation. Energy efficiency is the responsibility of every South African and should not be construed as a tool for commerce and industry only.

Eskom anticipates a profit of half a billion rand for the full year ending March 2015. This is both due to the seasonal nature of tariffs - the fact that winter tariffs are higher - but also to increasing costs.

Engagement with Eskom with a view to ensuring cost containment measures and improve on efficiencies is in line with the support package, with minimal impact on the electricity provision process. The key objective is the balance between short-term priorities while maintaining long-term financial and operational sustainability.

The ANC-led government support will be maintained for Eskom in order to secure adequate funding of the build programme. To date, 85% of the required funding to finance the build programme, which is in excess of R300 billion over the next five years ending in 2017-18, has been secured while ensuring a debt-equity ratio and an interest cover ratio in line with the shareholder compact and posting a financial surplus over the past three years.

Funding has been made available for Eskom to increase access to electricity. Eskom has electrified over 4 200 000 homes since 1991, increasing the number of households with electricity from 32% to well above 85% by 2014, Morapela. [Applause.]

The ANC and its government has finalised the Medium Term Strategy Framework.

Mr K Z MORAPELA: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I am also a member of this House, therefore I deserve to be called hon Morapela.

MS D Z RANTHO: Hon Morapela. The National Development Plan and its implementation programmes, through the New Growth Path, Ipap and the National Infrastructure Plan, inform the Medium Term Strategic Framework. This is a detailed five-year implementation plan, coupled with objectives and time frames. The period of radical socio-economic transformation has begun.

IsiXhosa:

Abantu baseMzantsi Afrika basithumile siyi-ANC. Babone thina ukuba singabona bantu abafanele ukuba bathunywe ukuze sikwazi ukubona iimfuno zabo. Sithi, abantu abakwaziyo ukujongana noxanduva oluphambi kwethu. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Kufuneka baqaphele ukuba urhulumente wenza ngandlela zonke ukuba uxinzelelo lombane lungabikho kangako. Sifanele ukuba sigobe phambi kwalo rhulumente sisonke. Enkosi, sithi abathunyiweyo. [Kwaphela ixesha.] [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Ms D CARTER

Ms Z RANTHO

Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, the Majuba crack proved not to be a hole in the dyke. Despite frantic efforts by Eskom and the Minister to obfuscate and filibust the truth about the Majuba catastrophe, the flood gates opened and the lights went out. The sad reality is that our country and its development and growth - in fact, its future - has been sabotaged under the watch of the ruling party.

According to the economist Dawie Roodt, our economy is losing R300 billion per annum as a result of this debacle. Economic growth has regressed and stagnated. Jobs have been lost. Employment targets have not been met, potential tax revenue has been lost, businesses and industries have closed down, the current account deficit has increased, currency has depreciated, and investors’ confidence is at an all-time post-1994 low. Direct foreign investment has dried up. Our financial standing has been downgraded and Eskom now has junk status.

As far back as 1998, the White Paper on energy acknowledged that unless additional capacity was created, supply would exceed demand by around 2007. To this end, Cabinet explicitly resolved in 2001 that Eskom would not be allowed to invest in new generation in order to ensure meaningful participation of the private sector in electricity generation. So, what went wrong?

Since the ANC in government woke up in 2004 from its ideological contestation and gave Eskom the mandate to increase its generating capacity, we have witnessed ineptitude and bungling by Eskom. Most of its directors grease their palms. How, while the lights go out, can one justify a bonus of some R25 million to a former chief executive officer of Eskom? Maintenance problems and a four-year delay in the construction of Medupi and Kusile are putting intolerable strain on the system, let alone the rocketing costs.

In the past three years, we have lost the equivalent of an entire power station through deteriorating plant availability. Out of 87 coal-generating units, 32 need major surgery and three are in a critical condition. Eskom considered in Parliament that it cannot guarantee electricity supply security for at least another five years.

In today’s newspaper, we read that the Vaal power station is drowning in ashes. Will heads roll? Will someone account? Will someone accept responsibility? Will the Minister and Eskom be open and transparent? Can we be told of the President’s dealings with the Russians? Can we be told the truth? Will it be another night with candles?

Then, through you, Deputy Speaker, to hon Alberts, the difference between South Africa and the Titanic is that the Titanic’s lights were on when it sank. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE

Ms D CARTER

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, it is clear to the ACDP and to all South Africans who are being inconvenienced by load-shedding that there is a serious crisis at Eskom. Business confidence is being seriously undermined, resulting in reluctance from both domestic and international investors to invest further in our country, and economic growth is hampered.

The ACDP would like to suggest some concrete proposals towards solving our energy crisis. Firstly, maintenance work at Eskom must be increased urgently and substantially and highly skilled and experienced engineers must be brought in to review and bring the state of all the equipment and buildings to a satisfactory level.

Secondly, government needs to open all sectors of the market to independent power producers as a matter of urgency by putting enabling legislation in place. Competition is critical to improved performance by Eskom.

Thirdly, government needs to help Eskom invest in strengthening the transmission and distribution of power system as it is now evident that even the procurement of independent power production is being limited by the lack of transmission line capacity needed to take power to where it is needed.

Fourthly, government must simplify the process of procuring power from private producers and speed up the inclusion of private power producers to help address this shortage. The long and protracted process of procuring renewable energy is a typical process that could have been simplified to speed up the availability of new generation capacity.

Lastly, investment in the training and equipping of Eskom personnel is also crucial for the long-term sustainability of the investments currently being put in place. After the collapse of Silo 20 at the Majuba power station, the trade union Solidarity claimed that they warned management about the increasing vibrations in that silo but their warnings were ignored. Mr Deon Reinecke, who is head of the energy industry at Solidarity, has made another claim that he had alerted Eskom group generation managing director, Mr Govender, to the second crack in Silo 30 at Majuba power station, recommending that drastic steps be taken to prevent another collapse of a silo, but had still not received a response. Mr Reinecke now alleges that instead of Eskom investigating the information put forward by the members, the utility has embarked on a witch hunt to uncover the source of information.

The ACDP believes there should be a commission of inquiry to look at the claims and allegations made by Mr Reinecke to ensure that the culprits are brought to book and that remedial and preventive action is taken as a matter of urgency. The Times newspaper today also reported that management at Lethabo power station in the Vaal triangle were allegedly and repeatedly warned by employees about the likelihood of a conveyor belt failure and other problems, including impending chemical spills. These warnings appear to have been ignored.

Mr N T GODI

Rev K R J MESHOE:

Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, comrades and hon members, the events at Eskom are a concern to all South Africans. The capacity to provide an uninterrupted supply of energy is critical for the economy and households. However, we need to acknowledge that the energy challenges of South Africa are not just about keeping the lights on for those who have access. We are still challenged by the lack of universal access to energy, especially in the slums and rural areas. Energy is a game changer in the quality of life for people. It lightens the burden, especially on rural women, who have to trek, looking for firewood. In that way the supply of energy could slow down deforestation.

The APC is clear that when the first black outs occurred, the remedies were not going to be quick fixes. We call on Eskom to redouble its efforts to ensure that there is enhanced management of its production assets, especially the maintenance of critical infrastructure. We acknowledge that Eskom has a newly appointed chief executive officer, whom we wish well in turning Eskom around. He has sufficient public administrative experience, having been an accounting officer for some time. We hope he will be able to rise to the challenges of his responsibilities.

We firmly believe that access to energy is a basic need and therefore believe that Eskom must remain as a public entity at the centre of electricity provision in our country. South Africa has expectations and deserves better from its public entities, including and especially Eskom. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms N W A MICHAEL

Mr N T GODI

Ms N W A MICHAEL: Chairperson, we return to the House today as representatives of a country in the midst of a debilitating national crisis. Crisis? What crisis? Let me tell you what crisis – a crisis that is grinding our economy to a halt; a crisis that has been shrouded in mystery; a crisis that has been downplayed by the ANC time and time again; a crisis for which there are many more questions than there are answers.

Yesterday, when I called for this debate, news broke of Eskom’s collapsing profits for the year – down 24% from last year. As a Member of Parliament, I asked myself: So what now? What is going on at Eskom and what do we need to do to fix it? How can we make a difference? The reality is this: We have very few answers. The fact of the matter is that no one here knows for sure what is going on at Eskom, with the exception of one individual and that is Minister Lynne Brown.

The DA has tried to get information out of Minister Brown. On 4 November I wrote to the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, asking for an oversight visit to the Majuba power station. No response was received. I have submitted parliamentary questions. No response has been received.

In the past, we have submitted Promotion of Access to Information Act applications, or Paia applications, to get to the bottom of what is going on at the Medupi and Kusile power stations. In response, the Public Enterprises department has done everything in its power to stop us from seeing the full contracts. On 3 November I again wrote to Minister Brown, asking for a full maintenance schedule of Eskom’s power stations. There was no real response.

In fact, the Minister’s only response to me has been an overly theoretical and mildly hysterical open letter, dated 6 November. In it, Minister Brown promises, and I quote: “If you want more information on the timeline for maintenance of power stations, I am quite happy for you to receive this.” Delighted by this new embrace of openness by the Minister, I wrote back asking for the maintenance records of the Majuba power station, among other things. To date, nothing has been forthcoming.

Minister Brown must acknowledge that we are in the middle of a real crisis under her watch. Eskom’s infrastructure is falling apart. It cannot keep the lights on. Its profitability is collapsing. It needs billions of rand in bailouts, and no one really knows what is going on.

I would like to say to Minister Brown, through you, Chairperson, on record and in full view of the House, the national media and the public: Please follow through on your promises and provide us with the maintenance records for all Eskom power stations. We need to know how bad things really are. You cannot expect Parliament to sit idly by as Eskom continues to drag our economy down. We cannot approve budgets, do oversight and plan for the future of Eskom without knowing the full picture and the full situation at Eskom.

Just this morning there have been more allegations of a power station on the verge of collapse in the Vaal Triangle. Could the Minister today, on record, please provide us with feedback as to what is going on at the Lethabo power station? Is it going to be another Majuba? If so, we must now warn the South African people of the coming blackouts. Reports are already suggesting that two of the power station’s six reactors are down. Could the Minister please clarify this? Eskom’s own CEO has said that the entity is “living on the edge”. Where is the plan to fix it?

This week Minister Brown also said that she is privy to a turnaround plan for Eskom. Well, at this stage it is a secret plan, because yet again nothing has been reported to Parliament. I would wager, in fact, that there is no plan, no details and no substance to this claim. Minister Brown and the ANC government are again on the back foot and responding to a crisis. Why is it that we cannot plan ahead to avoid these crises before they happen?

It comes as no surprise that Eskom management and Minister Brown are so evasive on the issue. The true nature of the situation, I am very sad to say, would be greatly embarrassing not only to the Minister but to the government. And, of course, there is no escaping the fact that government’s inability to plan our energy needs properly is today actively contributing to poverty and unemployment in South Africa.

Serious questions remain unanswered. How long can we expect load-shedding to last, and what are the plans to mitigate the negative effect this has on our economy? What is the true nature of the problems at the Majuba power station and, in fact, at all the power stations? Where are the maintenance logs for all the power stations? Why can’t the portfolio committee go to the Majuba power station? Will the Medupi power station meet its December 24 deadline for the initial turn-on, or will this deadline be extended for the umpteenth time? Will the DA finally be given access to all the Medupi contracts - I repeat, all the Medupi contracts - as per our Paia application? Did the Minister request that Eskom’s R63 million sponsorship of The New Age newspaper business breakfast be reversed? Will the Minister agree to a departmental freeze of executive pay at Eskom, currently totalling in excess of R60 million a year? Why is the Independent System and Market Operator Bill being stalled? Time and time again, Minister Brown has evaded these questions.

I see on the schedule for the debate today that Minister Brown has an extensive speaking opportunity after me. My hope is this: In the interests of openness and transparency and in the interests of all South Africans, the Minister must account to Parliament on all of these important matters. We want her to shed some light on the goings-on at Eskom.

The Minister has been missing in action until now. We request that she now come forward and do her job. We cannot allow this crisis to continue, dragging our country down with it. We want answers. I, together with the country, eagerly await these answers – and a rapid transformation of Eskom. South Africans are rightly furious. Business is furious, I am furious and the DA is furious. [Interjections.] This crisis goes this far and no further. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE:

Ms N W A MICHAELS

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Deputy Speaker, the hon Michaels is someone who always gives me a good laugh. This is somebody who – she is absolutely right – writes to me all the time. And then she is allowed an opportunity of oversight. She promises to come - and then she does not pitch up! [Interjections.] But, if she knew where the Cape Flats were - and I am not using the colloquial term - we call her the bilsa bitter mond. Forget about what else I was going to say…!

To the hon member from the UDM, member Kwankwa, what happened at the silo in Majuba ... [Interjections.]

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker...

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Deputy Speaker, I really would like you to rule. The hon Michaels is not giving me an opportunity to speak. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Take your seat, please! Proceed, hon member.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, the hon Minister has just called hon Michael a bitter mouth and I put it to you that that is unparliamentary. The Minister should withdraw. She is casting aspersions on the member’s character. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Did you say that, hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, did you say that?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: Oh yes, I did say that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Oh no, it is not allowed. You cannot say that, Ma’m!

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISE: I withdraw, Deputy Speaker. What happened to the silo at Majuba, two years previously… [Interjections.] If you give me the same respect I gave you when you spoke, you might learn something. [Interjections.] Two years previously, it had an intensive inspection and it was due for another one in six months’ time. However, there is an investigation going on into Majuba as we speak and we will report back within the next two months. [Interjections.]

To the hon leader of the opposition party, I think he doesn’t realise that the private sector is involved in electricity generation in the country. In fact, the independent power producers, IPPs, are an example.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I feel a bit like Winston Churchill must have felt when he made his famous speeches to the British public during the Second World War. I was a bit nervous about saying that because some may be tempted to say that I look a bit like him too. [Interjections.] But humour aside, Deputy Speaker, there are certain parallels. As was the case then, all the citizens of the country face a very serious national challenge. As then, there is hope. As then, overcoming the challenge lies in every citizen who is able to help, pulling together.

So much has been said and written about this subject; so many statistics quoted; so many facts stated; so many analyses done; and so many opinions expressed. So, Deputy Speaker, I really do not want to assault this House and the nation with more of the same. [Interjections.] I really wish the DA would listen. I give you the respect due to you when you speak.

Permit me to begin by attempting to explain to our families and our neighbours who are not experts, and who simply want electricity to be there when they want it, why that is not always the case. In simple terms, as most of us know, electricity is generated in power stations.

HON MEMBERS: Oh, wow! Really?

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: We build most of our power stations to last for 50 years. If power stations were perfect and never encountered problems and could stay on all day every day for 50 years, we would not have a problem in South Africa.

Right now, if the power stations were perfect, we would have more than enough power to keep the lights on all over the country all the time. Nobody would even think about the fact that electricity was there and we would certainly not be in this House having this debate now.

Let me state that differently. If we ran all our power stations at their ideal operating capacity at the same time, we would have more than enough power to keep the nation’s current and some future needs.

The problem is that power stations are not perfect. Like cars, they need servicing from time to time. Because we know that our cars need servicing every 20 000 km, we plan to have them serviced after having travelled that distance.

What this means is that when we want to service a power station, for the period that it is being serviced, we have less electricity available. So, we service the power stations when the nation needs less electricity, and that is mainly in summer. And, in the normal course of events, we have enough power from the rest of the power stations to compensate for the loss of electricity from the power station that is being serviced.

But even then, with one unexpected breakdown, even two, we would have enough electricity if all the other power stations were operating perfectly.

Our problem is that sometimes, like with the recent collapse of the coal storage facility at Majuba, too many break down unexpectedly at one time. In simple terms, that is what is happening now.

Given that a power station is not like a car, when it breaks down, it sometimes takes months to repair, which means we have less power than we need for that period of time.

You may then ask why we are not making sure that we have more power stations to deal with the planned servicing and any unplanned breakdowns.

The answer is that we are building two very large power stations right now – among the top five in size in the world - and they should have been delivering power by now. And, if they had been available, as originally planned, once again, we would not have been having this debate right now. We would have had more than enough power available for all eventualities.

But they are not yet delivering the additional power that they will bring. Why? There are a number of reasons. Some of the international contractors we hired to build crucial parts of the new power stations let us down very badly and we lost many months as we tried to rectify the mistakes. Then, too, almost a year was lost as a result of work stoppages because of strikes. As a result, we are running between three and four years late.

Deputy Speaker, this is the moment to ask and answer the tough questions frankly. Does government have to take a share of the blame? With the benefit of hindsight, we have to accept that we probably took the decision to build these two new giant power stations later than we should have.

Does Eskom have to take any blame? Again, with the benefit of hindsight, there was a very long time between the building of the previous power station and the building of the two we are building now – Medupi and Kusile. As a result, Eskom and the country in general lost many crucial, skilled individuals who could undertake the work and could manage projects of that size.

Clearly, this time around, Eskom did not have all the skills it needed to manage and oversee the construction of these two new giant power stations when the projects started. If you listened carefully, you would have heard me explain this. But, while I do not intend to dismiss these facts lightly, this is not the time for focusing on blame. This is the time for pulling together as a nation to turn things around and get back to where we were at the start of the century, when we hardly ever spoke about Eskom because the lights were on all the time. [Applause.]

Possibly, if I asked those people in the House to put up their hands, those of you who, growing up, used Primus stoves and battery stoves and candles to get you through, I am sure many on this side of the House will be able to do so. So, possibly, we need to remind ourselves that in the period up to 1994, the previous government - which I am sure none of you voted for - connected only 5,2 million households to the grid. Now, within 20 years, 7 million more people have access to electricity. [Applause.] That is more than 85% of the population of South Africa. And that, I have to tell the members of the opposition, was under ANC rule.

Now, let me turn to the road ahead. Let me turn to the road ahead and all that screaming about “will we have outages”. The bad news is that it is going to be very tough for about two years longer and patience will be needed on the part of all citizens. The good news is that people who know what they are talking about are saying that if we take certain critical actions, there is every reason to believe that, from 2018, things are going to be looking a whole lot better.

There are major challenges ahead to achieve a much improved outlook in 2018. The first challenge is to make Eskom financially stable. As you heard, the first major step to address that challenge came with the decision by Cabinet to combine a number of large-scale initiatives to set Eskom on the road to financial stability. The details of the package were already dealt with by my colleague, the hon member Rantho. What I want to add is something about what it represents.

This is not simply a temporary fix. This package marks a seminal change in the way in which government is addressing the centrality of energy, and particularly electricity, in the economy and society as a whole. As you have heard, it is multi-faceted and complex and we will have to climb and move mountains to make it work, but I believe it is the sea change that we all have been looking for.

But, Deputy Speaker, this is not only my view. Some of our toughest critics in the ratings agencies, while having some reservations, as they always will have, are recognising that it is the kind of intervention that signals absolute seriousness on the part of this government and a commitment to dealing with the issues.

To the hon member Carter, saying that we have been reduced to junk status is not true. Factually, that is an untruth. For the first time in a while, those with a nuanced understanding of the electricity supply industry are saying that we have a chance of turning this supertanker around.

The second of our major challenges is halting and reversing the decline in Eskom’s total generation capacity. On many of those days when you did not think about Eskom because it was delivering power all the time, there was drama happening behind the scenes. In utilities like Eskom, there are always unplanned breakdowns, which increase the risk of outages. So, to keep the lights on, Eskom has had to make the other power stations work harder than the ideal level and service them less frequently than is ideal.

Given that most are beyond the middle of their planned life, they also need more attention. If we simply allow this to continue, we will get less out of the system and breakdowns will become more frequent, which means the possibility of load-shedding will increase.

I am happy to report that earlier this week, and for the first time in my six months, I was able to exhale after I was given the assurance by a global expert on this topic, whom I have come to trust, that he believes that we can halt and reverse the decline. He is not promising miracles. He says that we will have to do some extraordinary things to achieve this, but that we have the experience and capacity within Eskom to do so.

Thirdly, there is the problem of the so-called coal cliff. In simple terms, this means between now and about 2050, Eskom will be needing about 4 billion tons of coal. In the short to medium term, not all of that has been secured. It is not that we do not have the reserves. It is about it being contracted and the logistics of supply, as well as the quality of the coal, by the way. Once again, even as a relative newcomer to the detail, I am persuaded by the belief of the top experts that there are ways to mitigate and overcome this problem.

One again, this comes with a health warning that much needs to be done and faster than it has been done before. And before the question is asked, I will share the detail once it is available. As we speak, Eskom and the experts are on a breakaway, refining the details. [Laughter.]

The good news is that by the middle of the year, the first unit of the giant Medupi Power Station should be adding 800 MW of power more to our system. [Applause.] This will be followed by another 8 800 MW of new power at regular intervals as the other five Medupi units and Kusile come on stream.

So, the bottom line is: The next few years are going to be tough. [Interjections.] We will be hit by the inevitable unplanned problems that hit all utilities globally. I am sure many of you have been in London when there was load-shedding. [Interjections.] Haven’t you? I am very sorry to hear that. However, we have an excellent understanding of the problems ahead and have every reason to believe that with the right kind of commitment … [Interjections.] Does it matter? There are credible solutions to all of these problems.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to touch on a few of the most important policy issues which live around the electricity supply industry and which must be resolved in the very near future. The first is the notion of so-called “cost-reflective tariffs”. In simple terms, Eskom does not set its own tariffs. Those are set by the energy regulator, National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa. The matter that requires resolution is how to ensure that Eskom is able to balance its books without having the authority to set its own tariffs.

Next, how do we ensure that the poor are shielded from above-inflation tariff increases? The next one is this: How do we fund the building of future power plants and when do we begin the detailed planning for additional power plants? How do we strike the balance between the need for the state to ensure energy security and the need to draw more private financing into the system, as we have done through the very successful renewable energy IPPs under my colleague, Minister Tina Joemat-Petersson? [Interjections.] How will the possible restructuring of the electricity supply industry through the Independent System Market Operator, Ismo, affect its efficiency, its cost-effectiveness and sustainability? These are very complex questions and must be consulted on widely and clearly. It cannot be covered effectively in a debate like this. [Interjections.] Everybody shouts in the DA; you can’t hear yourself.

In conclusion, I want to reiterate my appeal to all of us in this House, all of our social partners and the public watching us, that this is not only an Eskom problem. Eskom must fix Eskom. It is an energy and electrical problem. This is not only a government problem. This is a problem that affects us all. In the interest of this nation, can we please work together to solve our collective problem in the spirit and manner in which we rose to the challenge of 2010? As in 2010, failure is simply not an option. I thank you. [Applause.]

SECOND ORDER

FIRST ORDER

HEARING INTO ALLEGATIONS OF CONDUCT CONSTITUTING CONTEMPT OF PARLIAMENT BY MEMBERS OF NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

(Consideration of Report of Powers and Privileges Committee)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS AND PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): Deputy Speaker, Deputy President and hon members, I need to indicate that this report is a consequence of the referral by the Speaker of the NA after an incident of grave disorder that occurred on 21 August in the House during questions for oral reply to the President, His Excellency Jacob Zuma.

It was very clear in the referral that the committee should inquire into the incident with due regard to the Rules of the National Assembly and the Schedule to the Rules and to report on the findings and recommendations in terms of Rule 194(2)(b) of the National Assembly Rules. This was a ground-breaking inquiry undertaken without any precedence. As the committee is established in terms of Rule 191 of the National Assembly Rules, it is a multiparty committee, as provided for by section 12(ii) of the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, Act 4 of 2004.

The inquiry into the incident is in relation to prohibited acts that constitute contempt of Parliament, as stipulated under section 13 of the Act. I need to indicate that this committee maintained its constitution with full participation of all members until the penultimate date. The level of co-operation during the hearing and the committee sessions was so high that I was barely required to intervene.

The 20 hon members in question were facing charges ranging from 1 to 7. These charges, without running through them in detail, relates to, firstly, refusing to take their seats when instructed to do so by the Speaker; secondly, refusing to withdraw immediately from the Chamber when ordered to do so by the Speaker; thirdly, preventing other members from performing their functions; fourthly, failing to resume their seats when the Speaker rose to speak; fifthly, speaking when not called on to speak or being recognised to do so; sixthly, creating or taking part in a disturbance within the precincts of Parliament; and seventhly, remaining in the Chamber when the House has been suspended for them to leave.

I must state that these hon members attended the first day of the hearing on 7 October 2014 after the EFF court application challenge in the Western Cape High Court failed on 29 September 2014 and thereafter they announced that they would not participate any longer, ending that by dumping the documentation that was prepared for them. Even after findings were made, they were also invited in writing to present mitigating factors, in writing or verbally. They did not take this opportunity, displaying arrogance and thus denying themselves the opportunity to call and cross-examine witnesses and to present mitigating factors in relation to the sanctions. This conduct is strongly discouraged from members who may cross the line in future, because you will never derive any benefit by staying away from your own hearing.

There are two issues that require clarification: The committee met and discussed the issue of witnesses. It was on consensus that the Speaker would not be called to give evidence. [Laughter.] It is the committee that must decide on who must be called and not an individual. The other issue related to the representation of hon Malema. It should be remembered that he was informed that the opportunity given was an indulgence from the committee as there is no Rule that provides for such representation. We were then legally advised that the representation did not constitute evidence because it was not given under oath or ...

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member there must not mislead this House. We requested the Speaker to come there. So, do not mislead this House. Please respect this Parliament.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is a point of debate and not a point of order. Continue, hon Mashile.

Mr L MASHILE: Thank you. We were then legally advised that the representation did not constitute evidence because it was not given under oath or affirmation and no one could test the content ...

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: that ruling cannot be right, because that hon member was part of the committee representing the EFF in that committee. When he stands up and says the speaker is misrepresenting the committee, you cannot say it is a point of argument. He was part of that committee and he is standing up to raise issues on the basis of the debate and agreements that were reached in that committee.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you will get the opportunity to contest what the hon chairperson is saying.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We are not contesting anything here; we just want the correct representation of facts. What the chairperson is saying there is incorrect.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Chair of the House will not enter into a debate. Members will debate the matter.

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: There is no debate here. The report that we got from him, as members of the committee, is not the one he is reading, for starters. It does not say that. [Interjections.] It is a totally different report. There are no such facts or statements. It is wrong.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Proceed, hon Mashile.

Mr B L MASHILE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The committee, with the help of the able and appropriately qualified Mr R van Voore ...

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I also stand here to concur with my colleague who sat with me and the chairperson on the committee. What we are hearing now is not the report that was given to us. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you will get an opportunity.

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The gentleman there is misrepresenting the committee and members of the committee are standing up – it is not the parties but the people who were in that committee who are saying it is not a true reflection. And you want him to continue as if nothing is happening! He must first correct that statement before he proceeds. Then we will come later to argue on issues that he is raising. You cannot say we must continue as if nothing has been said here, when members of the committee are saying that that is not a true reflection. Let him correct his statement.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mashile, please take your seat.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We have received reports to this House for many years. When the chairperson ...

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, a person is busy speaking.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: No, he is out of order. He is referring us to reports.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! There is a person speaking on the floor. Do not scream and shout. You will get a chance to raise your point of order. Take your seat.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Mashile is not reading the report. He is introducing the report to the House. [Interjections.] And the report as it is reflected in the ATCs is not what he is reading; he is introducing it. We have received reports introduced in the same way. There is nothing special about this one. [Interjections.]

Mr N P KHOZA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I think it must be clear that we are not here to play. The speaker at the podium is not representing Mashile’s report. It is supposed to be the Powers and Privileges report. But what he is presenting here is Mashile’s report and the ANC Chief Whip is protecting him. We are not going to allow that to happen here. If he does not have anything to say here, then let us rather go, because you do not know why you want us here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mashile, take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: This man must sit down. There are people speaking there, please!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! You sit down - nobody pointed you out. Hon members, let me read to you what is happening right now: “Consideration of the report of the Powers and Privileges Committee on hearing into allegations of conduct constituting contempt of Parliament by members of the National Assembly”. What I have before me here is a list of speakers. And the first speaker is an ANC speaker who happens to be hon Mashile.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: On a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You cannot speak while I am speaking, sir. With respect, you cannot talk ...

Mr A M MATLHOKO: I am calling you to order. You are out of order, Chair. We have a programme here; we know what is happening.

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Deputy Speaker, no, you cannot switch them off. We will come and speak from there.

Ms N R MASHABELA: Deputy Speaker, we are going to go and speak there.

Mr J S MALEMA: Why do you switch off the microphone?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

Mr G A GARDEE: You must just switch them on. We are going to be heard here. We are going to be heard.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you switch on the microphones, please, Deputy Speaker? Or we are going to use this one.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, go and take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please switch on the microphones.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go and take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Switch on the microphones first.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

Mr M S MBATHA: They are on!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat.

Mr M S MBATHA: They are on.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

Mr M S MBATHA: ... a member from the ANC caucus switches off the microphone.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, hon Shivambu and hon Malema, we have requested you not to do what you are doing.

Mr J S MALEMA: But switch on the microphone! Switch on the microphone! Switch it on!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The microphone will be switched on when a member is recognised.

Mr J S MALEMA: No, we are rising on a point of order!

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: On a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The microphone will be switched on for a member who has been recognised.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: But you cut him off while he was speaking.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I cut him off because he speaks when I am speaking and that is not in order.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: But you must say that!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, this is not acceptable. You are disrupting the proceedings of the House.

Ms N R MASHABELA: This is completely inconsistent with the Rules of the House. You are completely out of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am giving you the opportunity to allow members to do what they intend to do in the House here. Hon members, take your seats.

Ms N R MASHABELA: The microphones must be on.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seats. What is your point of order, hon Gardee?

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Hon Speaker ...

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: In the morning we had a meeting about the presiding officer’s authority. You were requested to ensure that the practice of switching off microphones did not happen. You are also now, once more, requested to ensure that there is free speech and freedom of speech here and that people can talk. There is no threat to any property or life. We shall assist you to run this House in a proper way, but cutting off microphones is not one of the things you should do. You are requested to ensure that it does not happen.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee, thank you very much for speaking only after being recognised, I appreciate that. We would like to move on. The reason that I stopped - and I will do that again - is that there is a requirement in the Rules that you only speak when you are recognised by the Chair, hon members. If you speak when the Chair is speaking, you are breaking the Rules of the House. [Interjections.] That is why we say so.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, may I please address you? I am requesting that I be given an opportunity to address you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why are you doing that, even as I am saying exactly that you should not do that?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Well, my answer is very simple, Chair. How else do I ask to be recognised?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You raise your hand.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: You will not be able to show me in the Rules, Deputy Speaker, that I must raise my hand, and none of the ANC people ever raise there hands. They stand and they ask to be recognised. It is the proper practice of the House. So, you must assist us. Even when we raise our hands, do you want us to jump on the table? It is a practice that has been happening throughout the years, people rise, go to the microphone and ask to be recognised. Then they are either told that they will or will not be recognised. Can we proceed in that manner, so that we are able to be peaceful? Because we feel undermined, please clarify this matter.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me clarify quickly, then I will not do it again. Hon members, this matter has been clarified before. Members speak while the Chair is speaking – that is not in order. I have recognised members among you who rose, who stood up, and I recognised them to speak. I have been doing that. I do not understand why you do not accept that we must conduct the business of the House following the Rules. Look at what you are doing right now. You are putting words in my mouth as I speak, so I cannot conclude because you contest that Rule. You want to continue contesting it, even as I speak.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Respectfully, a point of order can be raised whenever someone is speaking. That is what the Rules say –whomever may be speaking, I can rise. Even if it is the Speaker, I can raise a point of order. Please rule on that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I would like to continue with the business of the House. You are contesting the Rules and I suggest that this matter be taken up at the appropriate time. The ruling is the following: That the consideration and debate before us is intended to provide an opportunity ...

Mr M S MBATHA: Hon Deputy Speaker, it is Rule 72.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can I advise you?

Mr M S MBATHA: No, you are not going to advise me. I’m telling you: It is Rule 72. I do not need your advice. It is here. We must have one book, not your advice. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: “Precedence of presiding officer – whenever the presiding officer rises during a debate, any member then speaking or offering to speak shall resume his or her seat and the presiding officer shall be heard without interruption.”

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am calling for attention, please.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let me proceed with the ruling. You asked me to go to Rule 72. Let me read it for you.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: That is fine, but please recognise me so that I may remind you of where we are now.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: A member may speak – this is the right of members - when called upon to do so by the presiding officer or to make a point of order.

Hon MEMBERS: Yes!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, listen. You do not speak when the presiding officer is speaking. All right? I have just read you Rule 49. [Interjections.] That explains to you why you should not speak before you are recognised. Let’s proceed.

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, you must read Rule 49 with 72. These are Rules, you cannot read them separately. You read Rule 49 together with 72. We will not speak while you are speaking, but we have a right to speak on a point of order. We can call you to order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have pointed out to you, for example, hon members, and I have ruled when you did so, that that was not a point of order but that you were debating.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is no issue of debating here. The chairperson of the committee is saying that in the committee, regarding the report, this is what we have done. Members of the committee are standing up to say that what he is saying is not factually correct and that he is speaking as part of the committee. He is not speaking on behalf of the ANC there. He is speaking on behalf of the committee, as the chairperson of the Powers and Privileges Committee. And members - not of the EFF, of the committee - are standing up to say that what he is saying is not factually correct. He did not even include that in the report, which was taken in that committee there. We cannot have this Parliament consider a report that is not factually correct, because it has far-reaching conclusions. That is what you must rule on - the fact that there is a person at the podium misrepresenting the committee and the committee members are saying that he is misrepresenting the committee. Why do you allow him to continue when he is lying to the House?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, the report that we are considering is in the ATC. That is what we are considering. What the member is saying here, as the speakers’ list says, is as an ANC member who happened to chair that meeting. He is now introducing the debate. The rest of the members who follow are going to be taking their position on that matter to contest his views.

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: No, on a point of order, Deputy Speaker: When he stood up there, the hon member Mashile was giving us the report of the Privileges and Powers C ommittee. He was not debating as an ANC member of this House. Do not mislead us; we are part of this House. We are sitting here. We are listening to him. He must say he is debating as an ANC member and he must say, as an hon member, as Mr Mashile, a member of the ANC, “these are my arguments”. Then we will listen to him. But he cannot speak on behalf of the committee and say that this is what was agreed on and be misleading. Those other members are members of that committee and are disputing what he is saying on behalf of the committee. Let him not quote the committee. Let him debate. Then we will listen to him. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I suggest that we proceed with the debate. The hon Mashile here is debating.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker: On a point of order: We are considering a report from the Powers and Privileges Committee on the hearing into the allegation of conduct constituting contempt of Parliament by members of the National Assembly. Now the chairperson stands there to give this Parliament the findings of the committee. He is not debating, he is reporting, because we had the mandate of the NA to go and investigate. As the chairperson, he is reporting, but he is misleading the House because we were part and parcel of that committee, so he cannot continue before he rectifies what we agreed on.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. Hon Naledi … Hon Minister of Science and Technology, please proceed.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Deputy Speaker, will you allow the House to have a debate? The hon member who has the floor has been accused of not stating the facts. Now, if a member is seen as being misleading, other members have the right to reply and in the process of the debate the member will be able to clarify and reply. And the rest of the list of speakers should be able to debate. If they are afraid to have the debate, that is another matter. But could we allow the debate to continue? [Applause.]

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: It is in the best interest of the House to proceed. The hon member there, whose status is no longer that of the chairperson of the committee but who is debating on behalf of the ANC, should say that he is debating as a member of the ANC, and not presenting a committee report. We have the committee report in the ATC. So it must be clear that he is no longer a chairperson, but just a member of the ANC. If he still wants to debate as a member of the committee, I think it is better that he drops the report and rather sits down so other speakers who are going debate in terms of party positions on the matter are allowed to debate. Otherwise it is neither prudent nor fair. It is exactly what we were saying in the 89 points: that the ANC is both judge, prosecutor, initiator and now also debator. It cannot be. Can he just take his seat so that other speakers can come and debate? We have the report.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mashile, proceed and complete the work that you are doing.

Mr J A MNGXITAM: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I do not think it is a complicated matter. All that is needed is that the admission is made that at this point the speaker is not the chair of any committee who represents a version of the ANC as a party and that is what it is. He is not talking on behalf of any committee. This is the point that we want recorded so that we can continue.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let us proceed, hon Mashile.

Mr B L MASHILE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Given that the charges they faced related to undermining the authority of the Speaker, stopping the House from functioning and bringing Parliament’s decorum and stature into disrepute, these were serious and warranted sanctions of a serious nature. However, the sanctions are not primarily meant to punish the hon members, but to sharply indicate the seriousness with which we want them to mend their behaviour moving forward - that is, rulings of the presiding officer shall be obeyed, the Rules of the House shall be observed, and the decorum of the House shall be preserved.

Consequently, the committee therefore agreed to prefer sanctions to these hon members, as follows: that the hon Shivambu, hon Ramakatsa, hon Litchfield-Tshabalala, hon Gardee, hon Ndlozi and hon Malema be suspended for a period of 30 days without remuneration in terms of section 12(5)(g) of the Act. Hon Louw, hon Mashabela, hon Maxon, hon Moonsamy, hon Mngxitam ...

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I wanted to check if the hon member will take a question.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mashile?

Mr B L MASHILE: Just after I am done, Deputy Speaker.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Come again?

Mr B L MASHILE: I will answer a question when I am done with the report.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Proceed, hon member.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Can I proceed with the question?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He says no, hon member.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Hon Deputy Speaker, you said the hon Mashile was not giving a report; he was debating. Now he is referring to the recommendations of the committee. Is he debating? Is that a debate? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay. Take a seat, hon member, please. Thank you very much. Proceed, hon Mashile.

Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mashile, take your seat. Take your seat, hon Mashile.

Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, proceed.

Ms N R MASHABELA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the National Assembly is not the ANC’s playground.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?

Ms N R MASHABELA: This House is holy. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member.

Mr B L MASHILE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I repeat: That the hon Louw, the hon Mashabela, the hon Maxon, the hon Moonsamy, the hon Mngxitam and the hon Matiase be suspended for a period of 14 days without remuneration in terms of section ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There is an hon member at the back there who rose. Let’s hear her. Yes, hon member?

Ms D CARTER: Hon Deputy Speaker, I need you to please help us in the House today. Can we please have clarity? Are we now entering into a debate or are we actually presenting the report? I ask this because we are all getting confused. To us, if this is a debate, then it should not be giving the information we have received because certain parts of the report are being read and that is now being used in a debate. This is not helping the House to move forward with business.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Yes, hon member?

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Why are you rising, hon member?

Mr J S MALEMA: Exactly on what you have just said. Mashile ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, “hon” Mashile.

Mr J S MALEMA: There is nothing honourable about him. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.] There is nothing honourable about Mashile. You cannot force us to call people “hon” here. Mr Mashile ...

Sepedi:

Mr Mashile ... a ka se re sekiše mo. Oswanetše gore a re o dumelelana le kotlo goba ga a dumelelane le sona.

English:

But you are not saying that. You are already sentencing us as if you are representing the committee. If this is a debate, the ANC must rise to agree with the report and not announce the sanctions of the report. So, I do not know why, Deputy Speaker, you are behaving in the manner that you are, because you are not being honest. You know that this guy is giving a report. And then when we question his status, you say, “No, he is an ANC person, debating.”

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon Malema. Please ...

Mr J S MALEMA: He is announcing sanctions here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. Let me explain to you. The hon Mashile is the chairperson of the committee. [Interjections.] He is an ANC member. He is introducing the report, and so you will have the opportunity … [Interjections.] I am clarifying for the member who spoke here earlier on. He is introducing the report. If you contest it, you will get an opportunity to contest it. You will get that.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you just gave an assurance now that he is not introducing the report. He is debating as a member of the ANC. Now, you are changing.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Now you are changing what you said ... [Inaudible.] ... jumping up and down.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member ...

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: What is he doing here? Is he debating or is he presenting the report?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat. Take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Because he cannot introduce a report that has not been agreed on by the committee.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is introducing ... Please take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We raised a point of order in that regard.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Please take your seat. Let me tell you. The member is introducing ...

Mr J S MALEMA: No, but Deputy Speaker, before you respond – you said he was debating. If he is giving the report, he must then correct his statement when he said the committee agreed that Baleka must not appear before the committee. He must correct that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, this is the second time that I have to remind you that you must call a member “hon”. As the House, members call each other “hon”. You are calling the hon Baleka Mbete by her name. This is a requirement of the Rules, our conduct in the House and its conventions.

Ms M T KUBAYI: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Let us just assist the House here. Firstly, in terms of the procedures, indeed, the chairperson is expected to table the report so that it can be debated even if the report appears in the ATC. This is because the whole report - why it allows us to be able to debate it - has appeared in the ATC. All of us would have read that report. We know the contents of the report. So, in terms of the procedure, the chairperson of the committee must table that report so that we can engage with it in terms of the proceedings. We should be able to do that.

Secondly, Deputy Speaker, the point I am rising on is that if we are expected to treat each other with respect, let us respect each other. This is because you want to be called an hon member when others are referring to you by your name, but when others call you by a name, you do not want to do that. I think, let’s be fair. In this morning’s POA we agreed that the Rules shall apply today. There was an agreement that there would be Rules. We did not agree to suspend any Rules. All the parties were there. There was an indication that the Rules stand. So, we expect all parties to ensure that all members attest to the Rules as they stand. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, again, for the umpteenth time this year, I appeal to the presiding officers to ensure that there is order in this Parliament. [Interjections.] We cannot carry on like this. There has never been an instance in Parliament where another party writes the speech of a member of another party. Members choose what they wish to put into a debate, and that is it. We do not write each other’s speeches. Whether we like what is being said or not, members’ freedom of speech means they can say whatever it is they wish to say in a debate, and we reply.

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, we have no problem with Mr Mashile giving any speeches he wishes to give, but if you say he is giving a report, then that is not a speech of a party. It is the report of a multiparty committee. So, he must speak on behalf of the multiparty committee. The members of the multiparty say he is wrong to suggest the things he said earlier on. Therefore we do not have any difficulty. Let him correct himself, then we move on. He can report as a chairperson. We do not have a problem, but he must not misrepresent the committee.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members...

Afrikaans:

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Adjunk Speaker, ek sal nou in Engels praat sodat u nie hoef te luister nie; u hoef net te verstaan. Hierdie Raad moet orde handhaaf.

English:

I want to request that we get order in the sense that the hon speaker says that he submits the report as published in the ATC. We have all read that report. And let him then give the view of the ANC, the party he belongs to. Then, technically, the report has been submitted, and we can debate it. And that is what everybody has asked and I ask you, as the Chair, to please make that ruling. Let him submit it, and let us have the debate. It is as simple as that. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let us clarify that. Hon Mashile was chosen by members of this House to lead this committee. What he is doing is introducing the report and the debate about it. So, what we are going to do, hon members, is to proceed in that way, so that those who have different views about the report will come to the podium, if they are on the speakers’ list, to raise their issues. That is the basis on which I suggest we proceed. [Interjections.]

Hon members, I suggested that we must follow the Rules, as required. You said we must follow them. Do follow them yourself.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Hon Deputy Speaker, first hon Mashile must tell us whether he is addressing us as the chairperson of the committee or as a member of the ANC. You yourself have contradicted yourself. So, we are not going to allow him to proceed without him first withdrawing anything he said earlier in which he misrepresented the committee.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I suggest that the freedom of speech that you have called for prevails.

Mr P G MOTEKA: Deputy Speaker, I am going to make a proposal in the form of a point of order. If hon Mashile has to present the report as the chairperson of the committee, let him do so, and let the ANC caucus, and give us another speaker that can debate. They are saying they have a depth of knowledge there. Let them give us someone who can debate, and hon Mashile gives us a report on behalf of the committee. Then we can progress. We are not afraid of the debate. We are saying, let us just adhere to the procedure.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon member. We have heard you. Hon Mashile, proceed.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS AND PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE (Mr B L Mashile): Thank you, Deputy Speaker... [Interjections.]

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon member is finishing his speech.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mashile, please take your seat.

Mr A MNGXITAM: Hon Deputy Speaker, you just need to make a ruling. This matter is now in your hands. Is this hon member speaking as the ANC, or as the chair of the committee? If he is indeed speaking as the chair of the committee, he has a responsibility to represent the committee. Now, members of that committee in this House have already stood up and said that there is a material misrepresentation if he is speaking as a member of that committee; as the chair of the committee. So, if he speaks as a member or the chair of the committee, he firstly has to withdraw and correct that misrepresentation, and then continue.

But it is you, hon Deputy Speaker, who must make that determination. Once you have made that determination that he speaks as the chair of that committee, he must, before he proceeds, apologise, correct himself and then we can proceed in that manner. [Interjections.]

Isizulu: 17:38:20

Nks H O MAXON: Sihlalo, ake sikhulume ulimi lwethu mhlawumbe uzozwa. [Uhleko.] Sithi, ngamazwi alula, wena njengoSekela Somlomo oyiSihlalo, ...

English:

... just make a ruling if Mr Mashile is giving a report so that we can know ...

IsiZulu:

... ukuthi yini asinika yona noma uma uMnumzane Mashile ...

English:

... is debating. You just run on and say, “Mr Mashile, continue.” Continue with what? We must have clarity ...

IsiZulu:
... ukuthi wenzani uMnumzane Mashile manje. Ngiyabonga.

English:

Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think you are making your task very difficult. Very serious hon members, including members of the FF Plus, have just put it to you that you should assist the speaker at the podium to make himself very clear. Is he reporting on behalf of the committee? If so, he must correct what other members of the committee are saying, that this is not what they agreed as a committee. And if he is speaking as a member of the ANC, it must be so, and he must not misrepresent the committee.

Alternatively, a short cut is that he just reads a sentence saying the report stands as distributed and read. Then he goes and we move on to other speakers. This is because what he said misrepresented the committee. It would be very simple for you if we proceeded in that way.

Otherwise, if he does not withdraw the comments and remarks he made, which caused other members of the committee who are not even members of the EFF to have a problem with this report ... I mean, we could cause this report to be a candidate for dismissal by the court if even members of the committee are saying they do not know what the chairperson was doing there.

So, let’s make things easy. Hon Mashile just excuses himself and you make a ruling. Otherwise you will find it tough to continue with him if his status and the capacity in which he is speaking there are not very clear. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I thought we must add, at least in the interest of progress, that I cannot debate that you are sitting there, and that you are directing and conducting this House. It is a fact.

There is a dismissal on factual grounds on the basis of the representation of the committee. If the hon member is speaking and misrepresenting facts, then it has implications, in particular because he calls himself the chairperson of that committee. So, if you can rule, as we request, we will know that if he speaks as an ANC member, they are used to misrepresenting facts, and he can continue. But if he is speaking on behalf of a multiparty committee, he must stick to the facts and adhere to the line of the report. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Mr M S MABIKA: Deputy Speaker, let’s say we had to agree that the hon member was debating on behalf of the ANC. The fact is, the hon member is the chairperson of the committee. The question therefore is this: Is he allowed - as he is now debating for the ANC - to change the committee that is disputed by the committee members?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let me point out the following to you: The debate we are having here is a result of agreement by all political parties. Having agreed that this debate will happen here, it can only be changed by a resolution of this House. This House allowed us to proceed with it on the understanding that they agree with it.

The procedural requirement for the presentation of reports is a practice that is known in Parliament. It is known that the chairperson of the committee leads the introduction of a report and introduces the debate.

The reason we call it a debate is that it is always understood that different political parties will take different views on reports. Sometimes, they agree 100% with the introduction of the report by the chairperson; sometimes they do not.

Procedurally, there is nothing wrong with what hon Mashile is doing. What is procedurally problematic is if the House, through its members, seeks to stop him from concluding his introduction of the report as the chair of this committee. It is important for us to recognise the consequences of what it would mean if we were to do that. Because of your rights as members in this House, you have an opportunity to contest what he is saying. This would include the things you said in the course of the debate.

It cannot be right that the member is not allowed to complete what is procedurally agreed to in the first place — as one of the hon members pointed out, this morning — and in fact, that we proceed in that way. And he has literally been stopped in the process of completing his remarks. So, I plead with you that we proceed on that basis, and that you enter the debate differently than you are doing right now. I suggest that we proceed on that basis, hon members.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, you said we must raise our hands to be recognised. Please do not deny us.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what are you rising on now that is different?

Mr A M MATLHOKO: As a member of that committee, I want you to remember that if the hon Mashile continues lying, we are going to object, because he will be representing the committee.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot say ...

Mr A M MATLHOKO: However, if he is representing the ANC ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. You cannot say the hon member is lying. That is unparliamentary. [Interjections.]

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Oh, but ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Withdraw that statement, hon member.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: But he is not speaking the truth! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw ...

Mr A M MATLHOKO: He is misleading the House. He is not telling the truth.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw your statement unconditionally, please. [Interjections.]

Mr A M MATLHOKO: I withdraw, but he is not telling the truth.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please withdraw unconditionally.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: I withdraw.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: But ... [Interjections.] I withdraw.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: So, am I still recognised? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Proceed and finish your point, hon member.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: I am saying if he continues misrepresenting the committee, or this House, we are going to object.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! May I suggest to you, hon member, that there are procedures in the House for taking to task the reports presented by chairpersons. I suggest to you that the one you are using now is not one of them, hon member.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: This is not a report of ... [Inaudible.] ... committees of Parliament.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I suggest, hon members, that we do not go down the route you are taking. I suggest that we proceed. Hon Mashile, proceed.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS AND PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE (Mr L Mashile): Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr K Z MORAPELA: Deputy Speaker ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS AND PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE (Mr L Mashile): I will definitely try to make life easier in the House ...

Mr K Z MORAPELA: Deputy Speaker ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS AND PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE (Mr L Mashile): ... by thanking all hon members from the different political parties who made this work easy to complete. Not least of all, I must also thank the staff of Parliament, the legal services, and the protocol and sound and vision departments of Parliament for having assisted us in doing this difficult work.

I therefore present this report for consideration and strongly persuade the House to adopt it to bring certainty to the Rules and orders of this Parliament. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr A LOTRIET

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE POWERS AND PRIVILEGES COMMITTEE (Mr L Mashile)

Dr A LOTRIET: Deputy Speaker, on 21 ...

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

Afrikaans:

Hier is ek. Hierso. [Tussenwerpsels.]

English:

Can I be recognised, please? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you. Chapter 4(3)(b) of the Act says before the House may take disciplinary action against a member in terms of subsection 1, the standing committee must inquire into the matter and table a report on its findings and recommendations. [Interjections.] Where is the report? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. Proceed, hon member. [Interjections.]

Dr A LOTRIET: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

On 21 August, President Jacob Zuma came to Parliament to answer questions. As you all know, the question session broke down, as the President was not able to answer all questions fully.

It is the DA’s considered opinion that the question session broke down for three intertwined reasons. Firstly, President Zuma failed to give appropriate answers to any of the questions put to him. He shamelessly evaded answering the hon Maimane’s question on the day, in addition to evading the hon Malema’s question.

Secondly, the Speaker of the National Assembly, the hon Baleka Mbete, failed to maintain order in the House and, in fact, contributed to the breakdown of order in the House by referring to all EFF members as a collective, instead of to individual members involved in the disruption. She furthermore lost control of her own emotions and allowed them to overtake her decision-making abilities. The Speaker herself has admitted that she “lost it” on 21 August.

Thirdly, the EFF’s behaviour was not in line with the Rules of Parliament and contributed to the eventual collapse of the question session.

The DA entered the Powers and Privileges Committee with the honest intention to investigate the events of the day, considering all three contributing factors, and to apportion responsibility fairly and in accordance with the appropriate parliamentary processes and Rules, the Constitution and the Powers and Privileges Act. Unfortunately, the ANC did not allow a reasonable and fair process, as is envisaged in the Act, to be followed in this committee. It is clear, now, that the ANC in committee had a particular, predetermined objective and did not, in reality, allow a thorough and unbiased investigation, which allowed all parties represented on the committee to influence the predetermined outcome.

Here I can perhaps add that although there was this pretence of it being very fair and transparent, at times, it slipped through in certain comments made by members of the ANC in the committee - that they had actually been “patient” with us; that they had actually “tolerated” us. That, hon members, does not indicate a fair process.

We have therefore come to the conclusion that the report produced by the Powers and Privileges Committee is fundamentally flawed and procedurally compromised. We cannot support it, as it is not the product of a fair investigation.

It must be noted that this was the first time since 1994 that the Powers and Privileges Committee had to deal with a matter referred to it. It was also the first time that the Schedule in the Rules had to be applied. We are therefore setting important precedents for internal parliamentary investigations.

Our approach was thus not linked to who and which party members appeared before the committee, but to ensure that there was procedural fairness and that the process would be reasonable. Unfortunately, the ANC did not share the same approach. Every attempt was made by the ANC to protect the President and the Speaker from investigation or responsibility for what happened.

It is clear that the ANC came to the committee with the predetermined view of focusing all responsibility on the EFF. This is not fair, nor is it an accurate reflection of what happened on 21 August, and therefore it should not be supported by the House.

The following facts make it clear that this investigation was flawed and purposefully manipulated to ensure a predetermined outcome. Firstly, the submission of the leader of the EFF was disregarded by the committee and only considered after all findings were finalised. How can that, then, have an impact on the findings?

The hon Malema raised a number of pertinent points that should have been addressed during the investigation and even before the investigation. This submission referred to important matters relating to natural justice and procedural fairness, as required by the Powers and Privileges of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, and its content was never addressed. We even wrote letters to the chairperson, expressing our concern about this matter, to no avail.

Secondly, no formal legal opinion was produced to explain how a majority-ANC committee could reasonably constitute an investigation that was free of a “reasonable apprehension of bias”. Here, we had a situation where the person who referred the complaint to the committee was a member of the majority party and the majority of the members of the committee were members of the majority party. Now, this clearly points to potential for a reasonable apprehension of bias.

Added to this, if there is a reasonable apprehension or suspicion that the decision-maker has prejudged the matter, the bias rule is breached. It was clear from the press conference held after an ANC National Executive Committee meeting that the expectation was expressed that members of the EFF should be dealt with harshly – again, an indication of prejudgement.

Thirdly, it would appear that the parliamentary legal advisors were involved in drafting the charges against the EFF and also provided advice to the committee during the investigation. I put this question in the committee and it was not denied. This is a clear conflict of interest.

Fourthly, we come to witnesses. I can state here categorically that there was no consensus in the committee about calling the Speaker as a witness. There was no consensus. Had it not been for the DA and the opposition parties, there would have been only one witness. It took us almost a day of deliberation and debate to get the ANC members of the committee that far that they would actually allow us to call more witnesses, even though the Rules make provision for it.

The ANC majority was adamant that the Speaker will not and shall not be called as a witness. The fact that the Speaker was not called as a witness caused serious lacunae in the evidence presented. The Speaker was central to the whole process and the events that transpired on the day. She should, in fact, have been the main witness.

The fact that she did not testify made it impossible to determine why she acted and reacted in the way she did. We could not ascertain what her perception of “grave disorder” or “grossly disorderly” is. We could not enquire from her in terms of which factors she exercises her discretion to recognise a member to speak. Although the Secretary to the NA testified on what happened on the day, he could not testify to the reasoning of the Speaker and why she took certain decisions.

Lastly, it was also unfortunate that the two Ministers called did not appear before the committee to testify, but submitted affidavits. The committee thus also did not have the opportunity to question the Ministers on the content of the affidavits. Furthermore, these affidavits were only received after the Initiator had presented his closing arguments. Again, this is a problem in terms of due process.

What is worrying is that the members of the majority party did not take any mitigating factors into consideration. The context of the events, the contributing factors and the actions of the different role-players were totally ignored. Nowhere is recognition given of the frustration of opposition parties because of poor and insufficient answers given by members of the executive and, specifically, the President on the day. The findings and penalties proposed were indeed done on a basis void of any context.

I reiterate to hon members that we must indeed be mindful that this was the first such investigation by this committee in the democratic Parliament. We cannot allow a precedent to be set that this committee can be used to settle political scores. The DA therefore rejects this report and calls on the House to vote it down. [Applause.]

Furthermore, however, we cannot tolerate the abuse of this committee to serve political interests. In the coming parliamentary term, we will be submitting a series of legislative proposals to reform this committee to ensure it functions fairly in future, in the interest of all. I thank you. [Applause.]

MR J S MALEMA

Dr A LOTRIET

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, we, after serious consideration, had to take a decision whether to come and speak in this debate, with the intention to persuade those from the governing party not to agree with the committee’s decisions. Then we had to remind ourselves that those who come from the ruling party have been given an instruction by their leaders not to think but to use their numbers. Therefore, those who speak here with the intention to persuade must know that they are speaking to people who are not prepared to listen to any logic because they have been told how to vote.

Now, we have written a letter to the committee, indicating the reasons why we think the committee should not proceed. One of the things that all of you would remember is that the matter was referred to the committee after we challenged the Speaker, who threatened to suspend us for seven days without salary and benefits. We said to her that she did not have such powers. Upon realising that she committed a serious mistake, she resorted back to a committee in an attempt to correct her own mistakes, but she knew very well that the committee would arrive at the same determination.

So, we do not have a problem with the outcomes of the committee. We had made peace with those outcomes long before they were announced here because they were predetermined. We know that you will do everything in your power to defend one individual by the name of Mr President Zuma. You yourselves must know that you are creating a dictator, and that dictator will one day turn against some of you who are at the forefront.

You will have yourselves to blame. You cannot threaten us with salaries. We have survived many months and years without salaries. We came here without salaries ... [Interjections.] ... because we know how to survive without salaries. That is why we do not get shaken easily by anything that seeks to take money away from us. These leaders of the EFF led a strike of workers in Marikana who went without salaries for five months. If the Marikana workers can do it, what stops these leaders of the EFF from doing it? [Applause.] We are not scared of all of you combined. [Interjections.] You do not constitute any threat – none whatsoever. Actually, you are making our work easy, and we will go from strength to strength because South Africa can see that we are the victims of a political party that is very vindictive and uses parliamentary processes to settle political differences. [Applause.]

You are again looking for a shortcut with a political problem. Political problems must be resolved through political solutions. Look at what a political shortcut does: Today, you are sitting with a very strong opposition of your own making because of your shortcuts. [Laughter.] This party is going to grow and become a bigger party, hon Chabane. It is not going the other way. It is coming this side and, ultimately, that side. [Laughter.] It is a fact that you cannot wish away. Just think to yourself: A party without a single cent gets more than a million votes and becomes the third-largest representative party in this Parliament. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you time has expired.

Mr J S MALEMA: You do not know, Malusi. There is nothing you know. There is nothing that will destroy this party.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr J S MALEMA: We are going to grow much stronger and then the don, the don of new Mafia ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

Mr J S MALEMA: ... by the name of Jacob will come down ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema!

Mr J S MALEMA: ... because the EFF will do everything in its power to undermine this Mafia ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired!

Mr J S MALEMA: ... who are on this side, led by the don himself, the criminal, Jacob Zuma. [Applause.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO

Mr J S MALEMA

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Deputy Speaker, the decorum of this House, as well as its Rules, principles and conventions are sacred and paramount. All must adhere to them and abide by them, failing which we will have nothing short of anarchy.

On Thursday, 21 August 2014, during Questions to the President and in an unprecedented manner, all control was lost in this House. The events and processes that followed clearly indicate the multiple failures of this Parliament and its officers to maintain order and adequately redress and rule on an incident that should never have occurred in the first place.

The hon Malema submitted representations to the committee, containing 89 points, some of which could be described as matters in limine, which should have been dealt with before the hearings proceeded. However, the ANC component in the committee decided, in their wisdom, that these in limine submissions would only be dealt with at the end of the hearing. Equally disturbing is the role played by the parliamentary legal advisers, who seemed to assume the roles of both player and referee. This made it impossible to deal with matters of substance contained in the document that could have had a material effect on the final outcome.

There is no doubt that the Speaker was the main actor in the events that unfolded on 21 August 2014 and, moreover, that she is the one who took decisions on the conduct of some of the hon members on that day. To the dismay of all presiding Chief Whips, she is also the one who unilaterally decided to suspend the business of the House on that day. More importantly, she is the main complainant in the matter. So, we were utterly perplexed when the ANC component in the committee strenuously rejected the proposal that the Speaker be called as a witness.

I want to pause here and say that there was never any agreement on this particular issue, nor was there any discussion on the list of witnesses that were to appear before the committee. So, anybody who says that there was any agreement is being economical with the truth.

Consequently, we still do not know what the Speaker inferred with the terms “grave disorder” and “grossly disorderly,” or what her basis, or points of reference, is that led her to make such remarks. We do not know what process informed her to implicate 20 out of the 25 EFF members for parliamentary sanction. We are further as speechless as the poor members of this House were on that fateful day when they were expressing and repeatedly prohibited from rising on points of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you can see your time has expired.

Mr M A MNCWANGO: How is this ever possible in democratic, civilised debate? I still have 12 seconds.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no! That means it is over the time, hon member. You have had more than 19 seconds added. Proceed, hon Khubisa.

Mr M A MNCWANGO: The IFP does not support this report. [Applause.]

Prof N M KHUBISA

Mr M A MNCWANGO

Prof N M KHUBISA: Deputy Speaker, Parliament cancelled oversight visits to come to a sitting that would have lasted only 25 minutes. Already the taxpayer’s money, millions of rand for unused accommodation, meals, flights and transport had gone down the drain. The voters out there are watching. They still need water, roads, houses, decent education, health facilities and other basic services.

Having said that, the NFP is appalled at the way in which Parliament has so quickly degenerated into a kind of circus. The integrity, the dignity and the decorum of the House have been eroded, to say the least. The public has gradually lost confidence in the way the Fifth Parliament conducts its affairs. The NFP calls on President Zuma to come to Parliament to respond to questions as part of his constitutional obligation. The President, individually, and the executive must always appear in this Parliament to account.

Also, we have a duty to do oversight as members, but it cannot happen where there is disorder, a lack of respect for one another, insults hurled at one another, and where derogatory and inflammatory language is used. Accountability and oversight can only occur where there is a conducive environment that allows for that to happen. The NFP wants the Rules of this House to be respected. We are in a constitutional democracy and if we are not careful, Parliament will find itself jumping to the dictates of Luthuli House, with Gwede Mantashe as an extra parliamentary Chief Whip ...

HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! [Applause.]

Prof N M KHUBISA: ... who wants to dictate the course of Parliament as if it were another branch of the ANC. This must stop. We are in a multiparty democracy and all of us, as different political parties, are sent here by the electorate to represent them here. We collectively represent the 52 million people of South Africa.

The hon Deputy President met with the leaders of various parties and entered into a fantastic deal that intended to restore the dignity, integrity and the decorum of this House, which would remind us all to act within the Rules and orders of this House. Included in the deal is the fact that the Speaker and the President have to conduct the affairs with fairness, objectivity and impartiality, allowing all members to participate in the proceedings of the House without any fear or favour, in a spirit characterised by robust debate. At a recent meeting with the Deputy President, later a letter came through, with the letterhead of Parliament and the signature of the Deputy President, indicating that the talks had been cancelled because of the behaviour of the DA. So, in order to deal with the DA, this report, which had been put into abeyance, had to be brought back again, thus compromising the bona fide principle by the ruling party.

The NFP wants to reiterate, in a spirit that would ensure co-operation, trust and multiparty engagement, let us put aside this report. We do not support it. Let the talks between the Deputy President and the leaders be resuscitated. [Applause.] Let us not allow the scuffling of parliamentary processes by Luthuli House. Cheap political point scoring that is done through a flood of motions, debates, questions, etc must end. Let us bring order to this Parliament. This House must not be used as a space for settling political scores and personal vendettas. We represent the people here. The NFP will not support this report. [Applause.]

Mr M L W FILTANE

Prof N M KHUBISA

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President – oh, he’s gone – the UDM does not support this Report. I am reading this speech on behalf of my leader, General Bantu Holomisa, who had to leave.

South Africans today are debating and are divided about the serious allegations levelled against the President of the Republic and the Speaker of the National Assembly. These allegations are well documented and largely relate to the misuse of state resources, corruption and bribery.

While South Africans respect the respective offices, disappointingly its occupants have not reciprocated this respect because they refuse to account when called to do so. Sadly, this House finds itself abused, with the Speaker at the centre of shielding this nonaccountability.

Unfortunately, a majoritarian approach in dealing with these serious matters of national concern is doomed to fail, as always. Today’s Parliament is a shadow of the Mandela and Mbeki eras. As long as these serious allegations against the President and the Speaker, and the use of the majority to hide behind, continue, the decorum and dignity of this House will continue to erode, until proper accountability is done.

The strategic question to be asked is whether South Africa’s leadership from all social formations, particularly in this House, possess the requisite capacity and zeal to confront these serious allegations head on. The Report of the Powers and Privileges Committee presented to this House is procedurally flawed and we are happy that it may be taken for judicial review by those directly affected by it.

Once the morality and values of the leadership is so compromised, those responsible for their presence in these important public offices must do the right thing and respect South Africans by removing them.

South Africa, its people, its Constitution and laws are not for sale to the highest bidder. This behaviour by the ruling elite has compromised the economic performance of the country and made it extremely difficult for investors to view South Africa as an investment destination of choice. So, character has got to change.

Factually, the Report does not even reflect on the objections that were raised time and time again by members of the opposition parties. It is presented as if it was such a plain-sailing process. This is wrong. There are many other aspects that one could raise but I will leave that to the people who are more concerned with doing things right rather than being so committed to doing things their own way in order to further their own hidden agendas. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr P J GROENEWALD

Mr M L W FILTANE

Afrikaans:

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Adjunkspeaker, die VF Plus wil vandag sê dat ons nie die kant van die ANC kies nie, maar ook nie die kant van die EFF nie. Die VF Plus kies die kant van die Reëls van hierdie Huis.

English:

Hon Deputy Speaker, when I sit here I am surprised to see members jumping up to raise points of order, requesting the Chair to ask people to refer to other members as hon members. So, when it suits us, we want to say, I am not only a member; I am an hon member.

This House has one central word that must be at its centre and that is the word “respect”. We must respect the voters outside and we must respect each other. Of course we have different political opinions; that is why we have different political parties. I actually want to propose that we put the word “respect” in all official languages around here, because if we have respect for ourselves we will respect the voters and we will respect this House.

Afrikaans:

In Afrikaans sê ons, wat jy saai, sal jy maai. Waar het dit begin? In September 2012 staan agb President Zuma in hierdie Huis op en sê:

English:

”We” – he was referring to the ANC – “have more rights here because we are in the majority; you, the opposition, have fewer rights because you are in the minority.”

So, the example is set by the President. What did the hon President say yesterday at the conference of the ANC Youth League?

Afrikaans:

Hy sê die ANC is die leier in die samelewing. Selfs diegene wat die opposisie partye genoem word, moet deur die ANC gelei word.

English:

That shows disrespect for the respect of this House. The FF Plus wants to state quite clearly that we have to respect each other and we have to comply with the rules. EFF, you are wrong. You cannot act like that in Parliament. However, the FF Plus will not support this report, because the ANC wants to engage in power play. We say that the offences must be halved and not the full proposals as made in this Report. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs J D KILIAN
Dr P G GROENEWALD

Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, today this House has been entertained on a combination of myths, urban legends, selective interpretation of the Rules and the Constitution, and, alas, some more profound distortion and lies. And we will have more of that in the course of this debate this afternoon - if proceedings are not disrupted. [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, is the member debating as a member of the ANC or as a member of the committee that presented this report here?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member? Because that is not a point of order. Hon Kilian, proceed.

Mrs J D KILIAN: The executive editor of the Pretoria News recently wrote an editorial that was headed, “We created the spoilt brats in parly”. He argued for society to get involved in creating a value-based template that politicians should follow.

He lamented the current situation in the National Assembly, arguing that we have politicians and not statesmen representing the nation: “Politicians are always interested in the next elections and in keeping or taking power, whereas statesmen are interested in enduring political legacies”.

It is indeed embarrassing to be associated with the National Assembly where few members, particularly in the opposition, appreciate the many sacrifices made during the decades-long struggle for freedom and the historic facts that were signed just over 20 years ago ... [Applause.] ... resulting in the Constitution and the freedoms that we have today.

We need more leaders who are statesmen and stateswomen, irrespective of their party affiliation; people who can help build strong institutions and enduring political legacies. Unfortunately, from the debate today it seems that we will be waiting for that from the opposition.

Chairperson, as the ANC we argue that the value-based template for the nation already exists: It is the Constitution. The founding provisions of the Constitution are abundantly clear. It speaks of a sovereign democratic state founded on values such as human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms, nonracialism and nonsexism, the supremacy of the Constitution and the rule of law, universal adult suffrage, a national common voter’s role, regular elections, etc.

Deputy Speaker, perhaps Politics 101 could be of value to some of the new members. Lesson 1: The majority rules. It has a mandate to implement its policies and its programmes. The electorate give it the majority. [Applause.] Section 46 of the Constitution describes the composition of the National Assembly, which is based on proportional representation. Section 42 describes the National Assembly as the House that is “elected to represent the people and to ensure government by the people under the Constitution”.

Now, with a number of newcomers to politics and to Parliament it is perhaps necessary to unpack the meaning of these provisions, even though it is stating the obvious. During the May 2014 elections, the people elected their government quite unambiguously. [Applause.] The ANC won the support of 62% of the electorate; a total of 11,5 million South Africans voted for the ANC. The DA received a mere 22% of the votes and the third largest party, the EFF, received only 6% support from the electorate.

With its whopping majority in the May elections, it was therefore the prerogative of the ANC on 21 May to have its candidates elected as President, Speaker and Deputy Speaker. Yet, in an unprecedented move, the DA opposed the nomination of the hon Baleka Mbete - not on any factual or constitutional basis, no. The DA did so in order to fire the first salvo in their political war aiming to undermine the authority of the Speaker. And obviously, the EFF enthusiastically joined the bandwagon. [Applause.]

Deputy Speaker, it was the first time in the history of this Parliament that the candidate for Speaker was ever opposed. The argument then ... [Interjections.]

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, will the hon member take a question from me?

Mrs J D KILIAN: I will, at the end of my speech, yes. The argument then and the argument recently advanced in their frivolous motion of no confidence was ... [Interjections.]

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, the hon Kilian is misleading this House. If you recall, the DA opposed the election of the Speaker back in 2004. [Interjections.] So, it is the second time that she was opposed. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! Hon member, you are debating now. Allow the member her time. It is the member’s time to debate, not yours.

Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, the fact is that as a senior office bearer of the ANC, they argue that she was not suitable to hold the office of the Speaker. However, if the DA’s new caucus leadership and some of the opposition members were more honest, they would admit that neither Speaker Frene Ginwala nor Speaker Max Sisulu were in any different position. They also served in the NEC and the NWC of the ANC. So, what is the fuss? [Applause.]

So, the argument that the misconduct of the members in the opposition benches should be explained against the background of the Speaker’s bias or her perceived unsuitability as Speaker of the House is trite. Please present facts about actual bias before we take you seriously.

Lesson 2: The Rules of Parliament are firmly grounded in the Constitution. Section 48 of the Constitution stipulates that all Members of Parliament of the National Assembly must swear or affirm faithfulness to the Republic and obedience to the Constitution in accordance with schedule 2, before they may resume their seats. This means that all Members of Parliament should understand that to serve in this institution compels them to respect inter alia section 57, which gives the NA the authority to make rules and orders concerning its business.

Section 58 describes the limitations of MP’s privilege of freedom of speech in the National Assembly, because it is explicitly stated that such freedom of speech is subject to the Rules and orders of the National Assembly.

The Constitution is therefore clear about the majority forming a government, about the limitations on freedom of speech, and also about the authority of the Rules of Parliament. Consequently, if any member shows disrespect for the President, the Speaker or the Rules, such members are violating their oaths of office and are acting unconstitutionally. [Applause.]

Lesson 3: As law-makers, make an effort to understand the laws of the country, including the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, Act of 2004. The report before the House today reports back on the process that was followed in terms of the Rules of the NA and the provisions of the Powers, Privileges and Immunities Act of 2004.

Deputy Speaker, before I come to the details of the report - which is a report that the ANC supports wholeheartedly, also the sanctions imposed on the affected members - I believe we must go back into the history of the Powers, Privileges and Immunities Act. The Act was unanimously passed by the National Assembly on 17 February 2004. This Act, including the sections that provide for the security services of the Republic to be deployed to contain disruptions in Parliament by members and visitors within the precincts of Parliament, was enthusiastically supported by no other than the venerable and the late hon Colin Eglin of the DA. [Applause.] Standing on this very podium, the hon Eglin is recorded in Hansard as saying:

Parliament has the right to discipline its members to the extent that this may be necessary to ensure that the functions of Parliament are not disrupted and that the business of Parliament is carried out in an orderly fashion.

He concluded by saying:

The DA believes that this Bill ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

Mr I OLLIS: Hon Deputy Speaker, I just want to ask if the hon Retread over there will take a question.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is unparliamentary. You are not supposed to call a member that. Will you withdraw that?

Mr I OLLIS: I withdraw. Will the hon Kilian take a question?

Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, I will do that at the end of my speech.

At the end of his speech in Parliament, Mr Eglin said:

The DA believes that this Bill is not only long overdue but is very necessary, and that the provisions are appropriate and, therefore, we have no hesitation in supporting the Bill.

Against this background, Deputy Speaker, it was quite entertaining to listen to some pronouncements about a so-called fatally flawed process which has now, according to the DA and some minions, resulted in a fatally flawed report before the House today. [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, what did the speaker on the podium mean when she said the DA and some minions? Is that parliamentary?

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, with due respect, the hon member at the podium is actually being disrespectful to Members of Parliament by using that word. She might be English and think she can hide things under that English, but she must withdraw what she actually said and withdraw it now. [Interjections.] We can understand your English!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, hon member, take your seat. Hon Kilian, be consistent in what you are saying. Call members “hon members”, please! [Interjections.] Hon Kilian, can you do as the Chair requests. [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

Mrs J D KILIAN: I will withdraw but the reference was to ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Kilian, do not set conditions, please.

Hon MEMBERS: Withdraw! Withdraw!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Speaker, I withdraw. May I continue? It is critical that members of this House should trade in factual accuracies and on the basis of the Constitution and the legislative framework. Ignorance about the laws that govern the country and the Rules that direct the debates in this House is no excuse. Like in all sporting codes, rules dictates allowable conduct and conduct that should be red carded or yellow carded.

Robust debate can only take place where there is respect for office bearers and where members allow and respect the Rules and the responsibilities of the presiding officers to maintain order in the House.

Deputy Speaker, the DA’s hypocrisy … [Laughter.] … or perhaps paradoxes and contradictions, must be exposed. The DA complains about the composition of the Powers and Privileges committee, as well as the fatally flawed process, but in the Western Cape the DA has no hesitation to have disciplinary committees constituted on the basis of the DA majority. The same applies in the City of Cape Town. If the process is so fatally flawed, why did the DA and the opposition not stage a walk-out earlier? Why did they continue to the end? You cannot cry foul if all along you were part and parcel of the process but you are unhappy with the final outcome. [Applause.]

The events in the National Assembly on 13 November perhaps give us a little bit of a hint why the DA now wants to condone contempt of Parliament. They were planning to be as disruptive because nobody else but their former leader warned them that they should not allow themselves to be out-EFFing the EFF themselves. [Laughter.] He said it was important that they did not suffer from an identity crisis. The former leader, Tony Leon, clearly knew that they were trying to upstage the EFF in their conduct in Parliament.

The flagrant disregard for the Rules can no longer go unchallenged. Members have recourse, should they be dissatisfied with rulings by presiding officers or responses during question time. This democratically elected institution is where all public representatives have a right to be heard within the parameters of the Rules. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M P G LEKOTA

Mrs J D KILIAN

Mr M G P LEKOTA: Hon Deputy Speaker, members of the House, when King Charles invaded the British parliament, he demanded of the Speaker to know where some of the members of the house were hiding. The Speaker responded that he had no eyes and no ears to see or hear things other than what had been given to him by those for whom he worked. It was a way of saying that every one of the members of the house was his responsibility to protect and that his neutrality on this question could not be affected.

Today we consider a report that must determine who was responsible for what went wrong on the occasion of 28 August 2014 ... [Interjections.] ... 21 August, thank you very much. Now, I was one of the members of the House and reflecting on that day, it is quite clear to me that a judgement on that issue would have had to take into account all of the evidence on both sides of the question. I find it very strange that 100% of the culpability of members is placed on the EFF when all of us were involved. For this reason, Cope cannot support this report. [Applause.]

This is firstly because the Speaker herself was very much the central figure of the argument with the EFF. [Interjections.] Secondly, the Speaker made pronouncements and gestures to members that made her completely non-neutral. Therefore, no one could have heard this case without calling the Speaker or the relevant witnesses to be present.

There are Ministers who were implicated in calling police; who went up and down – their names are well known and I am not going to go into that. [Interjections.] They should have appeared before this committee to lead the evidence so that no judgment could be brought against them in their absence. The very fact that the EFF itself did not have a full chance to give its evidence there, but walked out as a result of the mismanagement of that process, does say that something seriously wrong had been done.

We must go back to the drawing board – all of us. We must go back to the drawing board. If I was given the opportunity by the committee to come and lead evidence, I would have testified against others, and also, perhaps, others would have wanted to testify against me. Cope will not support this report. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mrs C DUDLEY

Mr M G P LEKOTA

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Rules of Parliament are rules agreed to by Members of Parliament. They have a purpose and that is to keep a degree of order to ensure that the work of Parliament can be done. What we have witnessed in the last week, and the months before that, is a display of just how easily the work of Parliament can be sabotaged and frustrated when members have a mind to do so.

It is a shame that the Rules of the House have been so brazenly disrespected and disregarded in front the entire nation and the world. The unruly and threatening behaviour that occurred on 21 August is indefensible, in our view.

The ACDP has carefully read the committee’s report and the charges are indeed serious. For this reason, we would have supported recommendations outlining serious measures to ensure that consequences were no laughing matter and that they were a real deterrent not only for these members but for others who want to manipulate Parliament in this way.

Having said that, these members are first-time offenders, and in certain instances they have had the maximum sentence imposed on them. This is very unusual in the case of first-time offenders. The sentence imposed, in our opinion, should have been suspended to give the hon members of the EFF a second but final chance; an opportunity to learn from the experience, along with the rest of us.

The ACDP also recognised that due process was not meticulously followed when one considers that the main complainant, the Speaker, did not give evidence; that there is a perception of bias on the side of the ruling party, given that on a number of charges the opposition parties present either did not feel that the evidence justified a finding of guilty or that the sanction imposed was too severe. And while the EFF members chose not to participate in the process, evidence in mitigation of sentence, led by other members, could and should have been aloud.

Therefore, for these reasons, the ACDP will not be supporting this report. We strongly recommend that the disciplinary hearings are reheld to correct errors in the process and that the suspension of the sanctions be considered.

Ultimately, unless a political solution is found and parties choose to hold themselves to a higher standard, the current situation in Parliament will continue to deteriorate. The ACDP holds the view that the present situation in the National Assembly, in Parliament, is disruptive and counterproductive and cannot be condoned.

All parties must take responsibility in order to ensure that the institution of Parliament functions optimally and is not brought into disrepute.

The ACDP appreciates the efforts of the Deputy President in initiating a process to these ends, and it regrets that some parties failed to keep to the terms and spirit of their own agreement. If the agreement had held, the disciplinary process regarding members of the EFF would have been put on hold while party leaders and the Deputy President worked together to find a workable and sustainable way forward; one which did not unnecessarily diminish freedom of expression in the National Assembly but, at the same time, protected the right of all members to nonviolently and respectfully hold the President and the executive to account. I thank you.

Mr S M JAFTA

Mrs C DUDLEY

Mr S M JAFTA: Hon Deputy Speaker, although the AIC believes that any member of this House who disrespects and disobeys the Rules of the National Assembly should be made responsible for his or her actions, the AIC believes that this untimely tabling of the Powers and Privileges Committee’s report concerning the unbecoming conduct by some members of this House on 21 August, will not normalise the situation in this House. Instead, it will exacerbate the matter.

The reason the AIC believes that is that the meeting held by the Deputy President and the leaders of opposition parties represented here in this House on 18 November showed that there might be some other political means to resolve the issue pertaining to the 20 EFF members. This initiative by the Deputy President, which other parties condemned and turned their backs on its resolutions, was supported by the AIC. We still believe it to be the only way to engage parties in finding lasting solutions to the conduct and chaos experienced in this House.

At this age of our democracy, we should all be working towards a vibrant and people-centred Parliament and for the restoration of the tarnished dignity of this House. The tabling of this report in this House has been postponed more than once to exhaust other channels in dealing with the matter at hand. When resolving the matters, this House needs not to open loopholes for others to come up.

The AIC feels, therefore, that the timing of this report is not right, and that there are other channels that could be sought to deal with the matter. Therefore, we do not support the report. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M A PLOUAMMA
Mr S M JAFTA

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am not going to waste your time - we are not going to support this report. [Applause.]

Although, as Agang, we say that the laws of this House must be respected, we want to tell you, hon members, that this is a test of our democracy. That is because what we have here are hon members who once declared that they would die for some hon members on this side. [Laughter.] What I want to ask is: Who are the losers here? The losers are South Africans. To be a politician today, you just lose your honour by becoming a politician.

We should not only blame the EFF in this matter; I think the ANC is the parent of this whole problem. [Interjections.] And we, as the opposition parties, have been reduced to spectators of a fight between a parent and a child. I would like to warn hon members that we must do what is necessary to protect this democracy from what it has become today.

I think that if we continue and endorse this report, this will be a serious indication that this is no longer majority rule; this is majority dictatorship.

When you rule, even if you have won the elections, you must rule by fairness, honour and justice. I am sure that even in the ruling party there are some members who deserve to be taken to a disciplinary hearing. They will not go to a disciplinary hearing because we can see now that the ANC is no longer the ANC we know. [Interjections.]

The ANC has lost honour. It is no longer acting in the best interest of this country; it is acting in the interests of one man and others. By punishing the EFF, they have just made corruption a law of this country. Their only mistake was saying the hon President Jacob Zuma must just pay back the money - even if it is R5, he must pay it.

All I say to the ANC is: Enjoy it while it lasts. One day you are going to lose, and this will make you remember this day. We will never forget this day. You still have a chance; you can say to the EFF and other opposition parties, let’s look for a political solution. I am very serious when I say generations will judge you harshly in the future. I want to say to all political parties, including the ruling party: Let us not make this democratic dispensation a toy. We are going to leave this planet and one day our children will inherit it. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr NT GODI

Mr M A PLOUAMMA:

Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, the APC finds the conduct of the EFF on that day, before that day and thereafter quite objectionable.

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! What is this about, hon member?

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: I am just checking whether the hon Godi from the ACDP, or is it the APC, cannot give other members of the party an opportunity to represent the organisation. He is making this Parliament boring as we are always listening to one voice.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Yes, hon Minister, proceed.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Deputy Speaker, I think we need to find a way in which we can actually understand, before we give members an opportunity to speak, if they indeed have a point of order, because they are abusing the Rules.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let us be in order, please.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! What is that about, hon member?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I want to ask what the hon Minister was rising on. Was it a point of order or a point of parental guidance?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, take your seat. Hon Godi, continue.

Mr N T GODI: They have been at their ...

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: I think the hon Minister was standing because there needs to be some order in this House. We cannot even hear anything because of the noise you make, colleagues. We all want to hear what he is going to say. [Interjections.] I am not talking to you; I am talking to the Deputy Speaker. [Laughter.] I am not talking to you!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members. Hon Godi, proceed.

Mr N T GODI: They have been at the centre of conduct that has diminished our standing as Parliament. We are seen as a House that is being consumed by fights. We believe that it is the kind of conduct that cannot be allowed to just pass by and become a standard feature of parliamentary conduct.

In relation to the failed conference in the Northern Cape, one of their leaders was quoted as saying, “The EFF is not going to compensate disruptions.” [Interjections.] So, should it be allowed in Parliament? We say no.

However, is this route of the Powers and Privileges Committee the most desirable? Certainly not! It is most difficult to be here to censure fellow Members of Parliament, especially those espousing the perspectives of the left, whether I agree with them or not.

Taking into account the totality of the context, the APC would have preferred a different process. I thought we had that process last week. Thanks to the DA, we are where we are today. [Interjections.] It is the conviction of the APC that we need to find lasting solutions to the challenges we face. The horse might have bolted, but the APC prefers that we find a political solution. I thank you.

Mr M WATERS

Mr N T GODI:

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, if hon Godi thinks that the DA ruined the agreement between us and the Deputy President simply because of a motion, then he has a very warped perception of what executive accountability actually is. And we will not compromise on that.

Deputy Speaker, it is the President who said that the ANC was in trouble and one can see that today, when the ANC has to send an ex-National Party MP to do the bidding for them here in Parliament. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The hon Kilian talked about myths, urban legends and lies. Well, let’s talk about myths and urban legends, and that is hon Kilian’s loyalty to the ANC. That is a myth and an urban legend. [Laughter.] It will evaporate as quickly as she joined you when the next best deal comes along. [Laughter.]

In fact, many of you may not know this but she approached the DA first to join the DA in the last election, before she approached you. She asked the DA, what can you do for me? Where will you put me on the list? She was told to stand at the back of the queue and put her name in the hat like everyone else.

Ms M T KUBAYI: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Waters, take your seat, please. Yes, hon member, what are you rising on?

Ms M T KUBAYI: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker. The hon member on the podium, hon Waters, is attacking a person instead of engaging in debate. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon Waters.

Mr M WATERS: In the DA, you do not get a position on the list because of who you know or what you think you can offer the party. You have got to write exams, go for tests and interviews, and then you get selected to come here.

The hon Kilian also talked about the fact that the hon Eglin used to stand here and say that members needed to be disciplined. Yes, they do. But you do not abuse the Rules of Parliament to discipline members. You follow due process and make sure you cross all your t’s and dot all your i’s. The DA objected to every single flaw in the process along the way - and you know that, hon Kilian. We stayed in the process to try and salvage it, which we unfortunately could not do. That is why today we are opposing and voting against this report.

It is quite clear - it is amazing - how someone from the National Party, the party of apartheid, can so comfortably go to another national party, the African National Congress. It is quite clear that nationalists are able to work together, no matter what side of the political spectrum they are on. [Interjections.] We opposed apartheid. [Interjections.] Yes, we opposed apartheid!

Today is a very sad day for democracy. Once again the ANC has used and abused its majority in Parliament to bend the Rules and settle political scores on behalf of President Zuma. Today we are expected to rubber-stamp the embarrassing and pathetic investigation by the Powers and Privileges Committee, which we will not do.

Let’s face it, hon members, this committee’s so-called investigation was little more than a kangaroo court to do the bidding of the President and the Speaker. How can it be that one of the key witnesses, the hon Malema, from the party concerned, made a submission of 89 points and that his submission was ignored until the findings were agreed on? How can that be?

It is like a judge passing sentence and then saying, let me now look at the evidence that has been put before me. It is blatantly flawed and you know that. How can it be that two members of the committee, hon Luzipho and hon Mothapho, on 21 August, when this House was suspended, came through the doors and said to the members of EFF, “We will get you.” This has been verified by the Sergeant-at-Arms. Two members of that committee said those words. That, Deputy Speaker, I put to you, is potential bias.

The DA will not be supporting this report and we call on everybody here to have a conscience and do the right thing and not support it. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr B T BONGO

Mr M WATERS

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers and hon Members of the House, may I beg for your indulgence that I will not able to take any questions. I will not be able to take any questions. [Interjections.]. Tabled in this House is a very important matter that concerns South Africans. It is a matter of the Rules ...

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what is the matter?

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, your indulgence is needed here. The outcome of the issue that we are debating is quite certain for litigation. Now, you have members of a committee ... [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: On a point of order, Deputy Chair!

Mr G A GARDEE: ... who was supposed to have been neutral in that committee and who is now debating on behalf of the complainant. Are you, as the Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order!

Mr G A GARDEE: ... allowing this unfairness to continue? And will you be individually and severally liable for the legal cost if it comes to that point? Because the Deputy Speaker is allowing a matter that is ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member …

Mr G A GARDEE: ... contravening issues around natural justice.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

Mr G A GARDEE: You cannot have a member of the bench and the judges debating on behalf of the court!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, take you seat! Please, take your seat, hon member! Hon Malema, take your seat! [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Oh, you are able to see me but that member stood up first! You can see that I am standing but you do not see him standing. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is speaking and I am looking at him. [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: But you did not see the Chief Whip of the ANC when he was standing there! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Because I am looking at him - he is the one who is speaking.

Mr J S MALEMA: No, please, man!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon Malema! Go ahead and finish your point of order, hon member.

Mr G A GARDEE: The question is: Deputy Speaker, do you find it procedurally correct for the members of the court and the tribunal to come here and debate a report that is their product, on behalf of the complainant, the ANC. Are you ready to be held individually and severally liable for the legal costs if this matter is upheld by the court? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member! Proceed, hon Bongo.

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker, the matter before Parliament today is a very important one. It is a matter that relates to the Rules of Parliament – something that is very important. Rules are a very important component and part of society. So, it is very important that Rules, from time to time, are followed as far as possible and that they are followed to the letter. The matter before us is not necessarily about the money, as hon Malema has pointed out.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Deputy Speaker, …

Mr B T BONGO: We are well aware that ...

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Chair! Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, why are you rising? Take your seat, hon Bongo.

Mr A M MATLHOKO: The reason the hon Bongo cannot take a question is that he does not have an answer. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, you cannot do that. That is not a point of order. Proceed, hon Bongo.

Mr B T BONGO: The reason that hon Malema said that they are not worried about money is known to the entire South African public, and that is that they have bankrolled the entire Limpopo government. And as the ruling party, we are not worried about that. What we are worried about are the Rules... [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Chair!

Mr B T BONGO: ... of this particular House. [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please take your seats!

IsiZulu:

Mnu J S MALEMA: No! [Qha.] No [Qha]! Mkhwenyana! Mkhwenyana! Mkhwenyana! Mkhwenyana! Hlala phansi, mkhwenyana! Mkhwenyana, hlala phansi!

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

Isizulu:

Mnum J S MALEMA: Hlala phansi, mkhwenyana we-EFF! Hlala phansi! Hlala phansi, mkhwenyana. [Uhleko.]

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema!

IsiZulu:

Mnu J S MALEMA: Hlala phansi, mkhwenyana. Mkhwenyana! Hlala phansi! [Uhleko.]

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you are out of order! You are out of order!

Mr B T BONGO: Hon Chair and hon members, the Rules of Parliament find their expression in the main ... They find their expression ...

Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order!

Isizulu:

ILUNGA ELIHLONIPHEKILE: We, sbali!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is you point of order? Hon Bongo, take your seat.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I think there is a Rule of Parliament that speaks about anticipation. The matters that the hon Bongo just spoke about are before a court of law. And I think he must desist, in respect of the independence of the courts and their processes, from commenting on those matters. Can you rule on that?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Bongo, proceed. Hon member, I will get advice now regarding the correct procedure to deal with that point. [Interjections.] This is a legal matter; I am not a lawyer and I do not know how to deal with it. I must establish what their advice would be. So, please, do not put words into my mouth. I will ...

IsiZulu:

Mnum J S MALEMA: Mkwenyana!

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! No! No!

Mr J S MALEMA: I want to address mkhwenyana [the son-in-law]!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, do not do that! No!

IsiZulu:

Mnu J S MALEMA: Lo umkhwenyana wethu! [Uhleko.]

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order! You are out of order! This is ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr B T BONGO: These Rules, hon member and hon Deputy Speaker, find their ... [Interjections.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair! Hon Chairperson!

Isizulu:

AMALUNGA AHLONIPHEKILE: Amalobolo! Amalobolo! Amalobolo! [Ubuwelewele.] [Uhleko.]

English:

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what are you rising on?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I am rising, hon Chairperson, on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Bongo, please sit down.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: The request, Chairperson, is not for you to be a judge. It is for you to rule in the interest of your Rules - the Rules of the House. I raised the point of order not on the basis of a judicial process but on the basis of the Rules of the House. And I would like you to rule on that because it is on the basis of the Rules of the House, which talk about anticipation. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon member! Hon member, please take your seat.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: It is sub judice!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will talk to you about it right now. Proceed, hon Bongo.

MR B T BONGO: The rules I am speaking about find their expression in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, which, in section 1(c), speaks about the supremacy of the Constitution and the need to uphold the rule of law. So, the rule of law requires that Members of Parliament and ordinary citizens of the country must act in accordance with a preannounced and predetermined set of rules, which have been set out.

So, based on what I have already said regarding the issue of rules, I want to comment on what I saw security guards doing in Parktown. As a way of upholding the rules, I saw them knocking down a gentlemen ... [Laughter.]

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Point of order, Deputy Chair!

Mr M S MBATHA: Point of order, Deputy Chair! Point of order! Point of order, Deputy Chair! Deputy Chair! Deputy Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Bongo, please be seated.

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Chair, all we ever wanted is the lobola! The lobola! When are you going to pay the lobola!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha!

Mr M S MBATHA: Lobola! Lobola!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha, you are being contemptuous of the proceedings of the House!

Mr M S MBATHA: Lobola! Lobola!

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Deputy Speaker, …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Ramakatsa?

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: I am just checking, because the speaker there – the hon Bongo – is not debating. He is busy raising issues that ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ramakatsa!

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: ... do not have a bearing on the debate.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order! That is not a point of order!

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker ...

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I rise in terms of Rule 50. May I address you?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Mr G A GARDEE: The Rule provides that when the presiding officer’s attention has been drawn to the conduct of a member who persists in speaking about irrelevant issues or repetitious arguments, the presiding officer may direct the member to discontinue. This member is speaking about a Parktown meeting of a person for whatever reason ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee!

Mr G A GARDEE: I think that he is just being spiteful. He is not debating the issue contained in the report of the committee, of which he was a member. In fact, he was even suggested as the prosecutor in that committee, and now he is debating on behalf of the complainant.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Gardee!

Mr G A GARDEE: He must pay lobola!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You yourself said that when the presiding officer’s attention is drawn to that matter, it is the presiding officer’s opinion that must decide on that. Now, a member is standing at the podium, debating, so allow him to get it done. Proceed, hon member.

Mr B T BONGO: I think we cannot be distracted from the matter that is before the House. The matter is about the Rules. Rules must be followed to the letter because they find their expression from the Constitution and the Act of Parliament of the Republic of South Africa.

Hon Deputy Speaker, as part of the Constitution and as an embodiment of what we are doing here in Parliament and what we are expected to do as members of the entire South African public, we need to make sure that whatever we do is on the basis of Rules and respect - and not only respect for ourselves here but respect for the Constitution and the laws. So, respect goes a long way. [Interjections.]

Ms N V NQWENISO: Hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Ms N V NQWENISO: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of supporting my colleague by reading Rule 67, “Matters that are sub judice”.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member …

Ms N V NQWENISO: No member shall refer ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member …

Ms N V NQWENISO: ... refer to any matter on which a judicial decision is pending. And therefore the member on the podium is speaking on irrelevant matters.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I told you that I am checking and I am going to make a ruling right now.

Ms N V NQWENISO: Hon Deputy Speaker, there is nothing to check. The Rule is No. 67 in the book!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, thank you very much for the advice, hon member. Our attention has already been drawn to the fact that the case is before the court and therefore the hon member may not reflect on its merits and demerits. So, please withdraw that.

Mr B T BONGO: I withdraw, Deputy Chair.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, be careful of what you are saying. You are not supposed to be instructing the Chair on what to do. Proceeed, hon member.

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Chair ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, all Members of the House, please!

Mr B T BONGO: When we were dealing with the matter before us, hon Deputy Chair, we had to carefully consider the Constitution and the Powers and Privileges Act. We also had to consider the Rules of Natural Justice and the Rules as contained in the Rule Book of the National Assembly - the eight edition. As we were dealing with this matter, what we saw was that members of the opposition could not understand the referral by the Speaker. The referral by the Speaker simply said that members are required to deal with this matter in terms of the Rules on page 144 of the eight edition, which says that this matter is referred to in terms of the schedule. What was required in the main was that in the committee members were supposed to be acting as judges or presiding officers, which means that Rules should not appear as we do them ordinarily. So, we were supposed to be acting as judges in the committee.

So, what we did, hon Deputy Speaker, we called in the Deputy Chief Whip of the majority party and also the Chief Whip of the DA. The evidence they gave before the committee was clear and unambiguous; that what they saw on the day in question in the House was grave disorder, misconduct ... [Interjections.]

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Point of order! [Interjections.]

Mr B T BONGO: ... and a disregard of the Rules … [Interjections.]

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Point of order! [Interjections.]

Mr B T BONGO: ... which was serious and unacceptable. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Bongo, take your seat. What is your point of order about, hon member?

Mr A M MATLHOKO: Is the hon member leading evidence? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can I respectfully request you to stop what you are doing. This is almost the fourth time that you are standing on a non point of order and disrupting the proceedings of the House. Proceed, hon Bongo.

Mr B T BONGO: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Chief Whip of the majority party and the Chief Whip of the DA gave evidence that was tallying with each other before the committee. What we saw in the committee is that hon Lotriet did everything that was contrary to the evidence that was given by the Chief Whip of the DA. I think this has again shown the lack of character and identity from the opposition party.

What also happened is that in his true conviction, hon Esau from the DA supported this report in its material terms ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Bongo, take your seat. Yes, hon member?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think we are handling a very important matter here. The member over here is making statements that are not true. He is misleading this House. He is impugning the party and what hon Lotriet did in the committee. I ask you, Deputy Speaker, if the speaker on the podium can unconditionally withdraw those statements because none of it is true. What the member has just said here is just purely misleading of this House. That is what he is doing.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, in any debate the contestation of facts must be done in the course of the debate. You cannot use a point of order to do that. [Applause.] Yes, hon member?

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Chair, one can cast aspersions on a party. We know that and we have agreed to that. But the hon member here was casting aspersions on hon Lotriet, who was a member of the committee. And those aspersions must be withdrawn – they have to be withdrawn. And that is a ruling that is being ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Did he mention any member?

Mr M WATERS: Yes!

Hon MEMBERS: Yes!

Mr M WATERS: He mentioned hon Lotriet!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, if you mentioned a specific member, please withdraw that.

Ms J D KILIAN: Hon Deputy Speaker …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hold on, hon member. [Interjections.] Yes, hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, you know, the opposition is intent on not listening to us at all. They are the only ones to be listened to in this debate. Hon Kilian could not ... was not disrupted at all because she ignored the names they were calling her. Now this hon member is telling a fact, which is also in the report - that Esau and Lotriet in some situations voted against each other. He is telling the truth, but they do not want to accept that! And now we must accept that they are the only ones who can tell us what to say - censor us, actually - when other people are not censored at all! [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Kilian … Hon Bongo, wait, let me here recognise hon Kilian.

Ms J D KILIAN: Hon Deputy Speaker, I wanted to make the point that if the hon Deputy Chief Whip of the DA would read the report he would, in fact, see that those are the facts before the committee. In fact, the DA supported ...

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

Ms J D KILLIAN: ... eighty percent of the charges against the members!

Mr G A GARDEE: No!

Ms J D KILIAN: Hon Bongo cannot be expected to withdraw that. That is not allowed!

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Mr G A GARDEE: This House ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Mr G A GARDEE: ... is not an extension of the committee! Hon Kilian is a member of the committee. And Sbali [brother-in-law] here is also a member of the committee. [Laughter.] So ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, withdraw that! Hon member, calling an hon member ... [Interjections.] And in the first place, hon Gardee ... [Interjections.] Hon members, can we just agree that we desist from doing what we are doing here. It is incorrect to question a process that is procedurally appropriate; to question the validity of whether or not hon Bongo or any other member of that committee must speak. That is precisely the people who must debate and talk here because we were not in that committee. It is only those whose political parties decided they must debate who must debate. I suggest that that point is not worth following up on because it does not make sense. [Interjections.] Hon Malema, what are you rising on?

Mr J S MALEMA: No! Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Maimane raised a point.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Mr J S MALEMA: And he raised that point with you, asking that hon Bongo must withdraw.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Mr J S MALEMA: Now you allow the hon Chief Whip – mkhenyana wethu [our son-in-law] also - to then call and give us the details of the report and the National Party fellow also comes ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

Mr J S MALEMA: ... and adds to the report. But you do not call them to order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

Mr J S MALEMA: ... because they are debating the contents of that report, whereas they have a speaker there who is speaking on their behalf. Rule on hon Maimane’s point of order!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Bongo, please proceed.

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker, the intellectual ...

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member? Hon Bongo, just hold on.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, I rose on a point of order. The hon member that is speaking did cast aspersions on hon Lotriet’s character. And he must withdraw what he said.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Deputy Speaker, the very Deputy Chief Whip of the DA spent half of his speech casting aspersions on the member of this House, the hon Kilian. The hypocrisy of what he is doing I think needs to noted. [Interjections.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker, if the ANC is saying what is said by the Deputy Chief Whip, then it was their responsibility to call for a point of order. But they did not do that. So, they cannot come now that we are calling for a point of order and say someone has done ... As it is said, “Two wrongs do not make a right.” So, you have to rule on this one because we are standing and are standing on a point of order. [Interjections.]

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker ...

Mr J A MNGXITAM: Sit down! Sit down! Sit down, sir!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Bongo, take your seat. Hon member?

Mr J A MNGXITAM: On a point of order, Chair.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order?

Mr J A MNGXITAM: Jeremy Cronin is misleading this House. There is no casting of aspersions; it is a matter of fact. The speaker who has been referred to as a member of the National Party is indeed from that party. And therefore, Jeremy and the ANC are in alliance with the National Party! That is not an insult, but a fact!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are continuing to be contemptuous ...

Mr J A MNGXITAM: Oh, no, I have no problem - he is the hon member, I suppose, from the SACP.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are continuing to be contemptuous of the conventions of the House on how to refer to each other when we are in the House. And I plead with you not to do that. Hon members, the question of misleading the House is a point of debate. The Chair cannot be expected to rule whether that is correct or not. So, in the heat of the debate, members in the House have been saying things. I want to suggest that we be careful not to be offended when this happens the other way round. This is what we warn the House about every time. Do not use offensive language. Do not go out of the boundaries of acceptable language, including simple references to one another and so on, because you then provoke a series of counter-accusations. This does not help the House at all. I suggest we continue with the proceedings. Hon Bongo, please proceed.

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker, in conclusion ... [Interjections.]

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: I rise on a point of order precisely against the Deputy Speaker in your failure to enforce Rules consistently while this House has been reduced to a refuge for vagary; a vagary which we have been subjected to under your watchful eye, and you are not going to subject yourself to that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you saying? What is that, hon member? [Interjections.] Hon Matiase, you have to withdraw that. That is unparliamentary.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Vagary.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: And you are repeating it, hon Ndlozi! That is unparliamentary and I suggest you withdraw that. [Interjections.]

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha, take your seat. [Interjections.]

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, I beg you to listen... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon Mbatha, take your seat first before you do that.

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, can you check your hind side? [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon Ndlozi, do not do that.

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, can you check your hind side?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are out of order.

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, can you check your hind side?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, withdraw that! [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Withdraw what?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What he said - and he heard it. Hon Malema, you cannot be screaming across the floor when you have not been recognised. What is wrong with you, hon Malema? [Interjections.] No, do not do that. Withdraw, hon Matiase.

Sesotho:

Mr N S MATIASE: Morena Lechesa, o tseba fakatsana ka Sesotho ke eng?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, withdraw, please.

Sesotho:

Mr N S MATIASE: Ke bua ka fakatsana.

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, withdraw, please. Just withdraw.

Mr N S MATIASE: I withdraw.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The thing is this English which hon Jeremy Cronin’s ancestors came carrying in a boat. He is saying that the hon member is casting aspersions when he factually says that the hon member is from the National Party, and we asked you to rule on that. Are those aspersions? And failing which he must then withdraw the aspersions that he cast on other hon members! We must be clear. Please, hon Deputy Speaker. It’s going to assist us because we must be clarified about this English because it’s changing now. I don’t know whether it’s still in the boat or it’s outside anymore. It cannot be casting aspersions to say that the hon member is from the Nationalist Party. How is that “aspersions”?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. Hon Waters, what are you rising on?

Mr M WATERS: On the same point again, Deputy Speaker. The fact of the matter is this: I know the hon member is concluding his speech, as he said, but he still has not withdrawn his remarks and apologised to the hon Lotriet. Today, in the Parliamentary Oversight Authority committee, I raised the issue of the fact that the presiding officers need to implement the Rules consistently and fairly among everybody here - everybody. This is one of the issues I raised today and I emplore you to do that right now, please. He must withdraw those remarks against hon Lotriet. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, just repeat what you are saying he said.

Mr M WATERS: With all due respect, Deputy Speaker, it is so long ago. Do you want me to say verbatim what the hon member said? Maybe the hon member can repeat what he said, so you can make a ruling or you can refer to Hansard and then make a ruling. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will refer to Hansard and I will do that today. Proceed, hon member.

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker, as the ANC we support the report and we want to say to all South Africans that we have received all your SMS-es and Tweets about what is happening here in Parliament. What we want to respond to and say is that we are the only organisation that has lived for a period of 103 years. We are turning 103 in the next few months. [Interjections.] We have fought for democracy in South Africa, and we are going to fight any hypocrisy that is showing its ugly head in Parliament and elsewhere. The ANC lives and the ANC leads. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, can I get your attention? Before you subject the report to the choir … [Interjections.] … can I present the amended resolution which must be adopted by this House?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, before you do that... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Am I going to get an opportunity to present an amended report? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, it is okay, I will give you the opportunity.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Speaker, may I please address you respectfully?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just give me a chance, hon member. Take your seat. Hon members, the ... [Interjections.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I need guidance on what I asked earlier on, for future reference. I would like to know, so please, give us a ruling. Is it casting aspersions to say that the hon member is from the apartheid National Party because we would like to say that in the future? Is that casting aspersions? Could you please rule on that so that the English that came here in a boat with the ancestors of hon Jeremy could be clarified. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the debate having been concluded, I now recognise the hon the Chief Whip.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move:

That the Report be adopted.

[Applause.]

Question put.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, when do we get the opportunity to do an amendment to the report? Could we please be given that opportunity?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is the amendment, hon member?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is an amendment to the report that has been presented here. It is provided for in Rule 94 and Rule 95.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I am waiting to hear your amendment.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We move that this House should reject the report of the Powers and Privileges Committee. That is based on the submissions that we made to the Powers and Privileges Committee and it was ignored. The submission reads as follows:

We have come here as Members of Parliament representing ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, if it is a report, remember that ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is not a report. I am quoting the background information that this House needs for an amendment to happen. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, let me …

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I cannot give you an amendment without giving the background information. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The requirement …

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The House must listen before the voting happens because this is the background information. We are not here as voting cattle. Maybe some people are, but we ourselves are not voting cattle. We want to pursuade the House by giving adequate background information and the Rules allow that. Could you please allow us to continue....[Interjections]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Wait, hon member. Hon member, you have to tell us where in the report you are amending. That is the requirement of the Rules. You know that, right? [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is a report in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports that recommends certain sanctions. It gives background information in detail of what transpired in the Powers and Privileges Committee. We want to come with a different recommendation in terms of what this House should vote for. But before we do that, we should be given an opportunity to give you background information. [Interjections.]

It is a fair thing that we are supposed to do. You cannot deny us an opportunity as elected members of this House to give you background information. We cannot just come with the recommendations of what we must vote on. We are not here for voting; we are here to give substantive argument and background in terms of what happened - because the report that we must amend has background information. Please, allow us to do so. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, because of where we are in the process of considering the motion before the House, we cannot have motivations for that. [Interjections.] Let me explain to you: Amendment to a draft resolution:

No amendment to a draft resolution may be moved, except an amendment — (a) to a draft resolution on a question of privilege; (b) to substitute the name of another member for the name of a member in a draft resolution; or (c) which is allowed by the presiding officer.

So, hon member, what cannot be done is a motivation. We want an amendment that must be placed before the House to vote on and then we can proceed.

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, before us is a report by the Powers and Privileges Committee and that is what the Order Paper says. So, we are here and we want to read to you this amendment ... [Laughter.] ... to the Powers and Privileges Report. It is very important - you can see the size of that report, so it has to be spoken to. You see, we have to read this. I mean, we cannot proceed like this. We are not motivating. It is a new motion all together. We are amending your motion. Please allow us; it is procedurally correct, do not short-cut the process. We are here and we must do work here. This is what we are here for. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is a minority report, which is not allowed. [Interjections.] You cannot call it an amendment because you are calling it that ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Speaker, you are already predicting wrongly what we are going to deal with. We are not presenting a minority report. We are giving you a motion which this House must consider instead of the one that has been put here in the House. [Interjections.] You do not know what we are going to table and already you are jumping the gun. Relax! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Relax, hon member. The member behind you just said that he is substituting what is on the Table.

Sepedi:

Mna J S MALEMA:

A e, o a bona, o a thoma.

English:

I am saying ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: These are your words, hon member!

Mr J S MALEMA: I am saying this is an amendment that we want to present to this House. So, that is what we are asking. Stop speculating and listen to us, then you will know what we are presenting here. We are amending the motion before this House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the motion moved by the hon Shivambu is that the report of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party be rejected. That is what ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, we have not got there yet. We are going to deal with that after we have dealt with this first amendment. Every day motions are tabled here in this House. For instance, when we were passing a vote of no confidence on the Speaker, the ANC rose here to give a completely new motion, gave motivation that they have confidence in the Speaker - who does not know what she is doing - and all those other things. Then we voted on that motion that was amended by the ANC. After that, we went on and voted on the one tabled by the opposition - that we do not have confidence in the Speaker. Why is it now that you are refusing us an opportunity to put an amendment to the motion? You must apply the Rules consistently! That is what we agreed today in the Parliamentary Oversight Authority. Allow us an opportunity to give an amended motion, please. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the requirements for an amendment is not another report. [Interjections.]

HON MEMBERS: Yes! Yes!

Mr J S MALEMA: No, Deputy Speaker, please, you are predicting our actions. Can you give us an opportunity to do what the ANC did during the DA motion and if you think we are not doing that, then you can intervene. You are predicting. We want to give an amendment to the motion and then you can call those things of voting, of choirs – yes, yes, no. [Laughter.] But now, give us an opportunity to put, before you and this House, an amendment.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, can we add? Hon Chair? Hon Chairperson?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me respond to what I have been asked.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I would just like to add something, hon Chairperson, if you will allow me. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what are you adding?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: According to the Order Paper - by the way, this is also a substantially different motion that we are dealing with. We are dealing with a report that must be adopted, which was different, for instance, to the examples that have been provided. Those were motions and the ANC gave a substantially different motion. We want to amend sections of the report that must be adopted. We want to propose them in front of the House; we want the House to hear us and make amendments to the sections of the report that must be adopted - because the Chief Whip’s motion is “I move that the report be adopted”. [Interjections.] So, we want to do that but we want to propose amendments to sections of the report and the Rules allow us, fortunately. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the object of the amendment may be either to modify a question in such a way as to increase its acceptability or present to the House a different proposition to the original. The present question before the House is whether to agree to a report of a committee of this House; in other words, whether to agree to the findings and recommendations contained in that report in terms of the motion by the Chief Whip. If agreed, then it will become the resolution of the House.

Therefore, to put a different proposition before the House as an alternative to the original question may be done by moving to omit all or most of the words of the question after the words “that” and to substitute an alternative proposition. However, and this is an important matter, the alternative proposition must be relevant to the subject of the question.[Interjections.] The subject of the question before the House pertains to findings as to whether the conduct of certain members of the House, in particular, constituted contempt and to propose sanctions. Any amendments therefore have to be relevant to those findings.

So, what you are responding to is the question placed before the House. While proposing an amendment to the recommendations contained in the report would be in order, the submission of a wholly new report as an amendment is not supported by our Rules and practice. Proceed, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, I am moving on the amended motion. We rise to say that in adopting the amended report of the Powers and Privileges Committee, this House should take note of the submission that the EFF made to the committee. The report was not taken into consideration and it reads as follows:

We have come here as Members of Parliament, representing the Economic Freedom Fighters, the economic emancipation movement which is the third largest political party in South Africa. We are appearing ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am quoting.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: May I please be allowed to quote?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Cronin?

HON MEMBERS: Sit down!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am quoting!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Deputy Speaker, I thought that you have just provided guidance and a ruling that what we are strictly dealing with here is an opportunity to amend specifically the report from the Powers and Privileges Committee and not get a general background on “we have come here” and so forth. Therefore, I ask for a point of order that we stick strictly to what your ruling has just said. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I just want to ask a question that seeks clarity. Can a member amend a report in which they did not participate, especially if it is an inquiry? [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think that question is answered by what you read earlier.

An HON MEMBER: They must just chill!

Mr J S MALEMA: The hon Collins must relax, man.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have not given you an opportunity to speak. Please take your seat.

Mr J S MALEMA: Yes, I wanted to attend to Cronin.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member ...

Mr J S MALEMA: Oh, okay, hon Cronin.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are interrupting your own member from proceeding.

Mr J S MALEMA: No, I am not. Floyd is amending the motion and they stopped him when he was quoting. He is not leaving the motion. He is quoting. Please allow him to quote. He is still coming to it. He has to quote our submission, he has to quote the whole report of the Public Protector and the Special Investigating Unit’s report. We are quoting all these reports. So, this is a motion. [Applause.] We are quoting. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, I was still in the middle. I quote the submission that was made to the Powers and Privileges Committee. It says:

We have come here as Members of the Parliament, representing the Economic Freedom Fighters, the economic emancipation movement which is the third largest political party in South Africa …

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, just hold on a little bit. Yes, hon Kilian? [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes, but the National Party must be misplaced... [Interjections.]

Ms J D KILIAN: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Let me just say that the hon Chief Whip of the EFF is now going to read through the 89 points of hon Malema’s submission. I just want to put it on record that the comprehensive record of the proceedings of the House is obviously there for everybody to read, including the Hansard of the recordings of the committee and the hearings, etc. So it really does not make sense. I want to propose that we proceed with the item on the agenda that we approve the report.

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Point of order, Deputy Speaker: May I please be recognised? She must not predict.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, wait and take your seat, I have not recognised you yet.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, we have on the Table, put by you, the motion that was proposed by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party - that the report be adopted. An amendment would be to put a motion that the report not be adopted. There is no provision in the Rules for amendment to the committee’s report. There is none.

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Naledi is the one who was telling us earlier here that we cannot tell members of a party what to say. Therefore, she cannot stand up here and tell us how to present our motion. [Interjections.] We are making an amendment to the motion. Allow us to present it. When the DA presented a motion here on the motion of no confidence in the Speaker, the ANC presented an amendment. Because they didn’t want to quote anything, that is their own problem. We are quoting, because we want our motion to persuade other fellow members of this House. [Interjections.] We are not going to be told how we must present our amendment.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, bring the motion. Proceed on condition that you ask the House precisely what the decision of the House must be.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes, we are getting there, but can I please be allowed to quote? And can we get the assurance as well from the choir that there will not be disruptions? [Interjections.]

We have come here as Members of Parliament …

That is a quotation.

… representing the EFF – the economic emancipation movement that is the third largest political party in South Africa. We are appearing before this committee because the Speaker of Parliament has, through the Secretary of Parliament, preferred charges on members of the EFF, citing misconduct as a basis of all the charges which our members ...

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: What is getting confused here by members of the EFF is that there is a report of the commission. That is one thing. Secondly, there is a motion before the House. The motion is – as led by the Chief Whip of the ANC – that we should support the findings of the report of the standing committee. The motion therefore is “support” or “not support” or “half support”, but it is not about changing the report. [Interjections.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: We really need a point of order here. Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: That is what they are trying to do - change the report, as opposed to amending the motion. [Interjections.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: I don’t know, because you’ve already ruled on this matter. You read substantially there and hon members can’t hold back. I don’t know. Please, Deputy Speaker, you’ve ruled on this matter and we have had a debate and we want this debate. Let’s proceed. The Deputy Speaker ruled.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I will ... [Interjections.] Hon member, we ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, for ignoring Jeremy.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, we pointed out to you what must happen. Proceed. Don’t be surprised when that happens.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am continuing with the quotation.

We are appearing before this committee because the Speaker of Parliament has, through the Secretary of Parliament, preferred charges on members of the EFF, citing misconduct as the basis of all the charges our members have received. This committee is supposed to prefer charges on Members of Parliament but we have got it on good authority that after the appointment of the Initiator, this committee did not sit to consider the charges and members of this committee are seeing the charges for the first time. What kind of a judge can appear before a committee before they are familiar with ... [Interjections.] ... that are going to be tabled against the accused people? What justice ...

[Interjections.]

Mr B T BONGO: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: What the hon Chief Whip of the EFF is reading appears to be a mitigation statement, which was supposed to have been read in the committee itself. The committee that sat on this matter is not necessarily a committee - as I was explaining, but people did not listen. It is a matter referred by the Speaker. So this is a disciplinary hearing; it is is not a normal committee wherein you would amend reports and so on. This is a disciplinary hearing. We need to either accept or reject the disciplinary hearing, because we cannot open it here. This is a report sui generis ... [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, on point of order: Hon Ndlozi has called on you to enforce the Rules and your ruling on the course of action. But you forever continue to consider points of order such as the one made by our son-in-law, and this delays us in the process of concluding this matter. Besides, on the basis of what are we having these discussions? Please enforce those rules and the ruling that you have made so that we can make headway. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that the reason I agreed the hon Shivambu must do what he is doing is that he promised to make an amendment. We said that it must not be a motivation; we want an amendment. If it proceeds in a way that does sounds like a motivation, you may have to stop, hon member, and reconsider what in your opinion constitutes an amendment. Otherwise ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No, hon Deputy Speaker, you must have a very strong backbone. You must not be shivered up and down. [Laughter.] You have a ruling ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are out of order, hon member. In the first place, I am suggesting to you that you are out of order and do not do it again.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Okay, I will not do it again. Let me continue.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are out of order! I am going to request you to stop doing that and if you do it again, hon member, on the basis that you have been given the privilege to read an amendment and you do not, then I am going to have to stop you.

Mr J S MALEMA: No, no, it is not a privilege, Deputy Speaker. It is not a privilege; you are not doing us any favours.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, you are out of order. You have not been recognised.

Mr J S MALEMA: I’m calling you to order. I’m calling you to order, hon Deputy Speaker. You are not giving him any privilege. It is his right, elected by the people of South Africa, to come and speak here, please. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, hon member, you have not been recognised. Sit down.

Mr J S MALEMA: No! Can you withdraw that?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sit down, hon member!

Mr J S MALEMA: Can you withdraw the privilege? [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You sit down, hon member. You have not been recognised!

Mr J S MALEMA: No, can you withdraw the statement about the privilege? You are not doing him a favour. He is an elected member.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You sit down, hon member. Sit down, hon member! I think you are being completely out of order.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I want to suggest that it would be a gross departure from the Rules if you allowed a member to amend a report. What hon Malema was quoting, namely what we did in the motion of the DA, was that we were moving an amendment to a motion, not to a report. The report can only be amended by a minority report, not a motion. There are two conflicting things that they are trying to do. We know what they are doing. They are trying to filibuster. But the real issue here is that we do not amend a report unless it is done through a minority report. You can only amend a motion, and here ... [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. In the last motion that was debated in the House here, hon Godi complained about the DA raising an amendment to a motion by saying, Can we delete this and put in that, the background, and then he sat down. He rose to say that we cannot vote and support a motion we do not know; it was never read to us.

The hon member here is reading a motion. Hon members of the ruling party should just be patient for the motion to be read. [Interjections.] There is no provision in the Rules on how long a motion should be. So, can we be allowed to read the motion? He is just afraid of what he calls filibustering. That is part of politics. You must sit down and chill. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have stated earlier that I will allow hon Shivambu to move an amendment to the resolution before the House, but I will not allow the hon member to continue to motivate his amendment. An amendment to a resolution must be short, succinct and clearly initiate what decision the House is required to take so that the amendment can be put to the House for decision. This is in terms of the agreed guidelines of this House. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Which guidelines?

TheDEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, to move a minority report as an amendment is not allowed in terms of Rule 137. You may also move an amendment to this report that we are talking about, but they must move amendments to the recommendations.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, you know, the problem is that you are confusing this and you think I am motivating. I am quoting a submission. [Interjections.] And there is nothing wrong with that. Then when we come to the section that deals with those aspects, we are going to deal with it in the same way that we have motivated. Do not go and dig for Rules behind you. We have the Rule books here, right? This gives us an opportunity to deal with these issues.

In the last sitting, which debated the Nkandla report, which was wrongly adopted, the DA moved to say that a different report must be adopted. There was a correct intervention, which came from the back there, that said how do you adopt a different report which we have not been exposed to. We do not know its contents.

There is a report, which has been presented by the Powers and Privileges Committee, and we are rising here, before the House votes, to say that they must take into consideration the following components of what transpired thus far. That is what we have to deal with. What are you going to vote on? Look, I can’t just say, no, you must reject the findings without giving the totality of the background of what happened. [Interjections.] It would not be fair and it would never be justice if you disallow us the opportunity to give you the total background information in terms of what led to the Powers and Privileges Committee taking the decision they took and we are recommending a different outcome. So, please, allow us to do so.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, just take your seat, hon member. Hon member?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much for recognising me ultimately, hon Deputy Speaker. On a point of order, I think this should be conveyed to the House: What has been happening is really frivolous and vexatious. The Rules and guidelines are very clear. If a motion is before the House, the motion can indeed be amended by proposing in crisp, succinct and clear ways what the intended amendment is.

The mere fact that our presiding officer, the hon Deputy Speaker, should take into account is what the hon leader of the EFF had said, and these are his words: “We will quote from our submissions, the entire Public Protector’s report…,” clearly conveying that the intention of the amendment is not an amendment that is being proposed, but a repetition and a re-articulation of the entire content of the submissions that have been made, as well as the report of the Public Protector.

As a Chair and as a Speaker, Deputy Speaker, you have the discretion to determine whether indeed what is being submitted is an amendment, an argument or a motivation. If it is an argument, motivation, background or quotation, you, hon Deputy Speaker, are entitled in terms of your powers and authority to curtail such contributions. That is your responsibility and I say that with the greatest of respect and humility. If you do not do so, then indeed the interests of the entire House is being compromised by a stubborn, vexatious attempt by the EFF to disregard the Rules of this House. And I therefore urge you, with respect, to take that into account. [Applause.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.] I am waiting to be recognised.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, what do you want to say? [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: No, Deputy Speaker, we cannot allow a situation where we are told to amend and to say we are objecting and then we do not give the reasons why. We are making an amendment and that amendment, Comrade hon Cronin, is accompanied by reasons. I would not be part of a situation where you just object and you do not give reasons. [Interjections.] It cannot be. No, we are not going, Malusi, if that is what you are wishing for. We cannot. We are elected to be here, you see. It cannot be that you are telling us to leave as if we are walking around in your garden. We are not in your garden here. [Interjections.] We are here because we are elected. [Interjections.] Whether you like it or not, we are here. We are elected and, unfortunately or fortunately, we are not going anywhere this time around. We will never walk out. We are going to give you the reasons why we are objecting.

You cannot refuse to give us the opportunity to amend. We are amending. Let’s get that opportunity. The DA did the same but they chose not to read their full submission on Nkandla. Hon Godi stood up and said he found it difficult to support the amendment he had not read. This one, everybody has read. So, give us an opportunity to address the House on our amendment. That is all we are asking for. The ANC cannot say we are not allowed to reason. We must be allowed to reason. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, you are right. Reason crisply and briefly so that we hear what your amendment is and then we proceed. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I was still quoting ... [Laughter.] ... hon Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please ensure that we arrive as soon as possible to what we require so that we can make a decision on this here.

Ms M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member?

Ms M T KUBAYI: Deputy Speaker, we are requesting you to make a ruling. Hon Deputy Minister of Basic Education has risen on appoint of order and you have not made a ruling on that point of order.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. On a point of order, Deputy Speaker … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member, wait. Let me just point out...

Mr G A GARDEE: This point of order will help you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, I will give you a chance. Wait. Let me say this, hon members: The Deputy Minister made a comment, a point of order, part of which I had already read out here when I explained why I allowed the hon Shivambu to do that. I had said we will not allow the hon member to motivate his amendment. An amendment to a resolution must be short and succinct and it must clearly enunciate what decision the House is required to take so that the amendment can be put to the House. That is what I argued. The Deputy Minster’s point of order is about that. I wish, hon members, that having allowed the hon member to do so, I still appeal to him to do that. That was a repetition of a ruling that I had made, really. Proceed and do as requested by us in the chair, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Let me quote and then we take it from there.

HON MEMBERS: Oh no! [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The report says, to remind you, that on 21 August we asked the President of the Republic of South Africa, Jacob Zuma, when was he going to pay back the money, as prescribed by the remedial actions which the Public Protector correctly and constitutionally said should be implemented by all parties involved in the illegal and corrupt construction of the private residence of the President in Nkandla.

It is common cause that there was illegality and corruption in the construction of the private residence and this matter will be settled by courts of law, since the President is refusing to pay back the money as directed by the Public Protector.

Now, the Public Protector’s Report says that this investigation was carried out in response to seven complaints launched between 13 December 2011 and November 2012. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the Public Protector’s Report, the background you gave, is in the reports in Hansard - in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATCs, rather - and there is no need for you to proceed to go there. We will request you once more, hon member, to make and propose your amendment. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, it would not make sense if we did not make reference to the Public Protector’s Report. [Interjections.] We have to take you through the background information, so that ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... when we give an amendment, you have a clearer understanding. You must not rush to voting. Allow us to take you through this, and then you will realise that this is how we are going to ... Now, the Public Protector Report says that the investigation was carried out in response ... [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Hon Deputy Speaker.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... to seven complaints made between 13 December 2011 ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can I be allowed to say that I have already indicated to hon Shivambu that he must be brief; that he must not quote material that is before the House and in the records of the House; and that the hon member presumably read that material because this is a matter of national importance. They would have read not only the reports that were presumably considered as reported before this House, that it is in the record here. So, I am allowing you, sir, to complete your recommendations, not to continue to quote.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, just to address you first: It is not a reflection of reality that in this Parliament we cannot make reference to reports that have been presented. We do that every day. We give verbatim reflection of the reports that have been presented in the ATCs.

Can I please be protected as a Member of Parliament to make reference to the reports, whether they have been tabled here or not? It’s not true that people cannot do that. You do that every day when you come to claim victories of “a good story” here. Allow us to give you context so that we are not subjected to being voting cattle. We are not voting cattle here. We are people who must think and we think after we have listened carefully to background information in terms of what happens. In the Rules that you are reading, there is no time limit. Let me be brief in terms of how we are going to deal with these issues.

Now, the Public Protector’s Report says, the investigation was carried out in response to seven complaints launched between 13 December 2011 and November 2012.

The first report from a member of the public was lodged in terms of the Public Protector Act on 13 December 2011. Other complaints followed thereafter, also lodged under the Public Protector Act. Further complaints were received from ordinary members of the public and a year after the first complaint, a Member of Parliament launched a complaint under the Executive Members’ Ethics Act.

The first complainant requested an investigation of the veracity of allegations published in the Mail & Guardian newspaper on 11 November 2011, under the heading “Bunker bunker time: Zuma’s lavish Nkandla upgrade”. According to this media report ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Chair!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... the President’s private residence was being improved ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Point of order, Deputy Speaker!

MR N F SHIVAMBU: ... and upgraded at enormous expense. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, just hold on. Hon Pandor, proceed.

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon Pandor.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, we have a motion on the floor, put by you. The EFF wishes to put a counter motion. Could they put it and can we vote? [Interjections.] They indicated that they were not afraid of this report. We are getting a very different impression. Can you put the matter so that it is decided? [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I am allowing hon Shivambu to wrap up. Hon Shivambu, wrap up, please.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, there is no way I am going to wrap up before I give you the context of what we are doing. Can I give you context first? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: We are reading a motion.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please, man, appreciate that we gave you an opportunity to move an amendment. The House is saying to you that the context is in the reports before the House. The amendment is needed from you. Do the amendment so that we can proceed.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: You know, you are not going to conduct the business of this House if whenever there is an intervention you change your mind and everything else. That is not wisdom. You must know what you stand for. You must be strong. You must not be, like, when people speak, you are just shifting up and down. You are confusing us. [Interjections.]

I am in the process of reading a report that will give you proper background on a decision that we are going to take. Parliament cannot take raw decisions on a partisan basis. These are individual Members of Parliament, you do not know. Maybe after I have read this thing, the vote will be a different one. [Laughter.] So, can I be allowed to read through this process because you know ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, I have learnt from the EFF. What is the amendment? We have not heard it. What is the amendment? What is the amendment?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can I not be disrupted by a chanting person ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members…

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let the hon Shivambu wrap up, as I requested.

Mr G A GARDEE: I think he is going to wrap up, but this point of order is very important.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order now? Hon Shivambu, take your seat.

Mr G A GARDEE: We cannot have a member of the executive who is singing, “Wrap up the motion.” You did not even recognise him when he was speaking on the microphone and now you will also be reprimanding us for speaking on a microphone without being recognised by you. He must be reprimanded, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.] Reprimand him so that the hon member can continue reading the motion. The motion is very, very long. That is a fact.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I withdraw and I sincerely apologise.

Mr G A GARDEE: He must be allowed to read the long motion.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I withdraw. I sincerely apologise, hon Deputy Speaker.

An HON MEMBER: Yes, you must withdraw. Never do that again.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: On behalf of the House, I want to accept that apology and continue reading. [Applause.] [Laughter.] The first complainant requested an investigation into the veracity of allegations published by the Mail & Guardian newspaper on 11 November 2011, under the heading “Bunker bunker time: Zuma’s lavish Nkandla upgrade”. According to this media report, the President’s private residence was being improved and upgraded at enormous expense to the state, estimated at about R65 million ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... the … [Inaudible.] … improvements allegedly ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat. Hon Shenge, proceed.

Prince M BUTHELEZI: Deputy Speaker, just as the hon Minister of Science and Technology put it to you, you have put a certain motion before the House and the Chief Whip of the Majority Party has actually been very explicit about the fact that, you know, a report … There are many reports that we have adopted here, but I do not recall that there was ever any report that was amended. And in any case, if one is proposing an amendment, that is done in writing, not like that - not viva voce. You write it down. I think, sir, you must assert your authority. [Interjections.] You must assert your authority. [Applause.]

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of clarity here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of clarity, hon member?

Mr G A GARDEE: If you want us to, we can write it. If you want to agree with Prince Buthelezi, we have no problem. It means that we must call the House again to receive the one that must be written. There cannot be any vote until the long motion has either been presented orally, viva voce, or in writing. So, there is no problem, we can go and write it down and bring it. The House can be suspended so that we go and write it. When we have finished, we will come back with it. I thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, we really respect the leader of the IFP, but it is not in the Rules that an amended motion should be written. It is written and that is why I am reading here. I am quoting here. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I can only read things that are written.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, be sensitive to what the members of the House are communicating to you, and it is this: Wrap up so that we can consider your amendments. [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr J S MALEMA: You know, hon Deputy Speaker, we are elected and we are working here. [Interjections.] Now, we are doing our job. This is our job. This thing of being impatient and wanting to rush for airports and planes and closing down motions is wrong. You are creating the wrong precedent.

Let’s allow the party to put an amendment on the table. Let us stop being impatient with each other. Let us listen to each other. We listen to you here; you speak for a very long time and we have no problem with that. Please, allow us. There is no Rule that you can quote from the book that gives a time limit for an amended motion. So, as long as there is no such Rule, we are allowed to express ourselves. Please give us time.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hold on, hon member. Please remember that an amendment to a draft resolution in terms of Rule 9(c) can only be moved if allowed by the presiding officer. Now, I wish to repeat that if the hon Shivambu is not prepared to wrap up so that we can consider the amendment he is making, then let’s proceed with the consideration of the motion before us.

Ms N R MASHABELA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Ms N R MASHABELA: You are completely out of order. You are completely out of order, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?

Ms N R MASHABELA: I say you are completely out of order. [Interjections.]

The Deputy Speaker: Oh, okay.

Ms N R MASHABELA: You must be consistent in the application of the Rules. You must be!

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, I am really pleading for your indulgence which, by the way, you have already given. But it cannot be consistent with the Rules that you allow and then you bargain with time. If you have allowed us to make an amendment, may we be given the opportunity - because you have already done that? [Interjections.]

And, then on the basis of our substantial motion - not substantial motion but on the basis of the amendments that we are proposing to the report, no one has managed to convince you through the Rules, no one has managed to argue consistently through the Rules, that if a motion includes a report, it cannot be amended. That cannot be true. The fact that it has not been done does not make it illegal. So, we are pleading with you, hon Deputy Speaker. You have made the ruling and you have allowed us to make an amendment. Can we proceed to make an amendment, as you have already ruled? Please listen to us.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am. Hon member, please take your seat. Hon members, I have allowed you, and I have explained why I have allowed you. Hon Shivambu, I gave the reasons why I allowed you, which included being brief, being succinct and getting to the recommendations of the findings. That is what I allowed you to do. Now, you are not doing that. I have asked you twice to wrap up, and I wish you would do so now - for the last time.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I remind you of ... Yes?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... I am still on the floor. You cannot ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you are debating with me now.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There are Rules ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are debating with me now.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I want to give you a context so that we are together in terms of how we proceed.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are now debating with me, hon member. Can you hold on? Yes, hon Chohan?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, I would like to address you on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, please take your seat. Sit down, hon members.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, there have been complaints that the EFF have not had the opportunity to move a motion. Now, I have been sitting here and I have counted at least six occasions where you have given them that opportunity. It is quite clear to me that they are not prepared to move an amendment to the motion before us. Instead ....

Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order, Chair.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I am on the floor. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let the member finish.

Mr M S MBATHA: No, point of order, Chair.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will give you a chance.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I am on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha ...

IsiXhosa:

... ndicela ulinde.

Mr M S MBATHA: Yes, on a point of order, Chair ...

IsiZulu:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Kha ulinde kancane [Please wait for a minute]. Let the member finish. Proceed, hon member.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I learnt how to deal with bullies when I was 12 years old already.

Mr M S MBATHA: Chair, we are not here for that. We are not here for that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I am on a point of order and I have to ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha, could you stop doing that.

Mr M S MBATHA: No, we are not here for that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat.

Mr M S MBATHA: I said “point of order!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will recognise you. Take your seat. The member is completing her point of order. I will give you an opportunity to do that.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, they have had more than one occasion - in fact, to my count, at least five occasions - to move an amendment, which they have failed to do. Motivations happen during the debate preceding the motion. Each party has had its allocated time to present its motivation. The time for motivations is therefore over. You have now requested them to move an amendment. Sir, I ask you to rule in this matter because there is no amendment forthcoming and you have given ample, reasonable opportunity for that to happen.

Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We are going to be patient. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mbatha?

Mr M S MBATHA: Chair, with due respect to the last hon member, you have ruled and you said you were giving the hon Shivambu another opportunity to continue, but there have been interferences. Now, could you just allow him to finish, please? Could you just allow him to finish?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, can you take your seats.

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Can I ask you a question, sir? As far as I know, an amendment must be in writing. You cannot ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Ramakatsa, please take your seat. There is a member behind you who is talking.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: On a point of order, Chair. A quick order, respectfully, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. Could I ask the hon Shivambu, for the last time, to wrap up?

Mr M S MBATHA: On a point of order, Chair.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am asking the hon Shivambu to wrap up.

Mr M S MBATHA: Please, recognise me, Chair, in terms of the Rules around a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is your point of order?

Mr M S MBATHA: The hon Deputy Minister says that she can see bullies when she sees them. I think she is casting aspersions either on you or on the hon members. I think that must be withdrawn unconditionally, Chairperson. Please make a ruling on that, because I think we are all working in a good spirit. [Interjections.] But then we are called bullies and our own Chairperson is called a bully. That cannot be good. That is casting aspersions, hon Jeremy Cronin.

Mr J A MNGXITAM: Deputy Chair, on a point of order: This is a point of order before the other points of order. I think it is a good time to raise it now and it was raised before. It is a point of order on you, Deputy Chair.

You see, we are very patient because we are committed to this process. But what you have done by saying that it is a privilege - you are giving the opposition or the EFF a privilege - is being misrepresented and misunderstood by the majority party. It will help this House a lot if you make it clear that it is not a privilege. You are misrepresenting the rights of the opposition party to do what we are doing now so that everybody can relax and wait for the process and the reports to be read. I mean, there are some intellectuals and academics on that side. For authority, you must go to the source.

What is the problem? Why are you afraid of the source? Let us go to the source. [Laughter.] We are going to wait here to get that authority from the sources and then we will be able to provide the conclusions, which I hope will persuade you because you need that so that we can move. But, Chair, you start by assuring the House that there is no issue of privilege here. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Deputy Speaker, you are now being confronted by the consequences of not allowing the procedures of the House to be pursued as they should be in terms of the Rules. A matter has been put for decision. You asked whether there were objections. It was indicated that there were and you put the question. There was then a request for an amendment. An amendment can only relate to what was put, which is that the report be adopted. An amendment would be that it not be adopted and no other can be put. And so, Deputy Speaker, with humility, we know that the hon members want to take more time than they could in the debate because, of course, there were no strong arguments they could put. They said that they were not worried about money being lost, etc. We admire ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order!

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: ... them for that strength. We ask you now that you should rule and follow through on the process, which is that the decision that has been objected to be put to the House. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member!

Mr J S MALEMA: The point of order is that, the hon Pandor will sound as if she is correct, because she is not ... [Interjections.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, can you allow the member to finish? Yes, hon member, allow him to finish!

An HON MEMBER: Exactly!

Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let him finish. I will give you a chance.

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, I am also rising on a point of order, please, man! [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, proceed and finish your point of order, hon Malema!

Mr J S MALEMA: The motion for the adoption of the report is motivated by the report itself, because there ... [Interjections.] Awu! [Oh no!]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! No! Hon Malema, talk to the Chair! [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Okay, the report has been circulated, Chair. The Chief Whip of the Majority Party did not just stand up and say, “Let’s adopt; I move that we adopt.” Adopt what? We adopt a report that has been circulated! Now, the hon Shivambu stands up to say, we should not adopt but make an amendment. He is now making that amendment. The other side cannot be allowed to distribute reasons for adoption and the other side be denied an opportunity to give reasons for an amendment. That is incorrect! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right!

Mr J S MALEMA: So, give us that opportunity, like you did with the other side. Do not be shaken! Now allow us to give you an executive summary! [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, take your seat! Yes, hon member!

Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Chair, I am rising on a point of order: We are now pleading with you to do what you need to do in terms of the Rules. We are all being played for fools here and Parliament is being brought into disrepute. Make a ruling and follow through! [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SEAKER: Yes.

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member!

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, the point of order is that the hon member is actually pushing you into a decision to call in the riot police here when saying that you must do what you are supposed to do. What you are supposed to do is to allow the hon member to read the long motion! Make no mistake, the motion is long, and it must be read. And if members feel that it must not be read ... [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: It is an amendment!

Mr G A GARDEE: ... let them call the police to eject us because that is what the hon member is calling for. We are reading a very long motion here, Deputy Speaker. So, allow us to read the motion. In fact the more objections they raise against the reading of the motion, the more time is being wasted! We have a long motion to read here. We want to amend this motion! Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Just hold on! I just want to point out the following from our guidelines. Hon members, amendments must be relevant to the motion and may not introduce a new subject or extend the scope of the original motion. An amendment may be proposed to an amendment and it is subject to approval of the Speaker and presumably any other presiding officer who will not allow an amendment that is out of order or frivolous.

Hon members, I cite this matter to suggest that the debate that we have just gone through earlier on, as one of the hon members pointed out, was an opportunity for members to engage with the matter before them. I have given the hon member an opportunity to wrap up, but it has become clear that this is not forthcoming. And therefore we have to move to consider the motion because your amendments are not forthcoming as expected. [Applause.] That is the position that I wanted to make. Yes, hon member?

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, I have an amendment to make. May I move it, please?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, before ... Sorry, Deputy Chief Whip. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, can you put it on record that you are disallowing us to put an amended motion!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, but you are not allowing us an opportunity to do so!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, just take your seat! Hon Shivambu, I am requesting you to take your seat and I will come back to you. I will tell you what I am doing just after this, and I will give you an opportunity. Hon member! [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But, but, hon ...

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order!

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order!

Mr S J MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, the point of order is that you cannot allow the introduction ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the three of you are speaking at the same time! Just hold on! I will give an opportunity to the two members who are before the Table and I will respond to them! [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: No, no, Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am going to respond to all of you!

Mr J S MALEMA: No problem, you can do that!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Malema, please take your seat!

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order! [Interjections.]

SePedi:

Emang pele, o a tseba lena mara!

English:

Wait, man! I am rising on a point of order, Chair!

Dr D T GEORGE: Hon Deputy Speaker! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Wait, hon member!

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, the point of order is this: Floyd is very simple and he is in actual fact helping you. The problem is that you have already developed an irritable attitude. He is asking you to put it on record that you are disallowing us to make an amendment. If the answer is yes, we will sit down so that you can take the next amendment. You are disallowing us. And never say that you have given us an opportunity because we were reading an amendment and you are stopping us. Please, put it on record that you are disallowing us, so that we can attend to you properly!

The Deputy SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I will come back to you, hon members. Yes, hon member?

Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Dr P W A MULDER: In terms of normal practice, you cannot have two amendments on the Table at the same time.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Dr P W A MULDER: When the hon Shivambu started off, in the first sentence he said, “I move an amendment - that the report, as motivated by the hon Chief Whip, not be adopted.” And then he continued. I would suggest that since we do have an amendment from the EFF on the table, we first deal with it and after we have voted on it we move on to entertain further amendments. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mulder, I did point that out to the hon Shivambu; that he indeed moved an amendment. And so, the question of me refusing them to make an amendment is not on. And this is because they say they want to motivate it. That is the point I am making. Yes! [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, I am still in the middle of the amendment. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Okay, saying that I am in the middle is maybe an overexaggeration. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes! Yes! [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am still at the starting point of the amendment so that there is proper context of what we are going to vote for if we have to vote. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, let us deal with your amendment as introduced. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can I continue to read it? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: As introduced. No, take it as introduced. You have already introduced it.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: No! You know ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That report you have in your hands, you can present it once more! [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... the purpose of this House is that we must persuade each other. [Interjections.] We know that other people are not here for persuasion, but are here to drum up what they have been told elsewhere. Can we be allowed an opportunity to read our motion and say that this is the background against which we say the report cannot be adopted? Only after that can we be subjected to voting or no voting. It is as simple as that. And if you do not allow us to give a motion that is an alternative to what is presented here, you must say so.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, that is your interpretation. I am afraid I have to agree with you that you think I am stopping you but that is your opinion and I suggest that we move the amendment as you originally stated, otherwise we are proceeding.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Let me continue with the ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, we are not, hon member!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Apart from the release ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, hon member, do not continue. Summarise, if you want to, but do not continue reading. [Interjections.] You cannot continue to read! You cannot read, hon member. [Interjections.] Hon Shivambu, you have an option, so stop reading so that you ... [Interjections.] There is a member before you, whom I am addressing, hon member. What is your point of order, hon member?

The Deputy Speaker: What is your point of order?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Thank you, very much hon Chairperson. My point of order, hon Chairperson, is that you must rule, please. Are you refusing us to make an amendment, in that the hon Chief Whip of the government-in-waiting has started with the amendment? You stopped him in what he calls “the middle”, so the amendment is not complete. Please, rule, Chairperson, that if you are stopping him in the middle, seeing that the amendment is not complete, means that you are denying us the opportunity of making an amendment.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I suggest that we proceed, if that is your understanding.

Mr J S MALEMA: No, no, no! On a point of order, hon Deputy Speaker, we are the only ones who can say this is our amendment, and we are saying to you that we have not presented our amendment. Therefore, there cannot be voting based on the introduction of hon Floyd Shivambu’s presentation because that is not our amendment. Make a decision; we have no problem with that. But we want you to make a decision that we are denied an opportunity to present our full amendment before this House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right, hon member, that is fine. I will make ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, hon member? Please, I want us to proceed now, hon members.

Ms M T KUBAYI: Deputy Speaker, we have been rising several times on points of order. One is that even the amendment … I am not sure why you are allowing this because in terms of the Rules, that thing is irrelevant to the report that we are dealing with. It has no relevance to it. The Rules are very clear, Deputy Speaker, in terms of what needs to be amended. You have got to amend what we have in front of us. It is the report ... [Interjections.]

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: On a point of order!

Ms M T KUBAYI: Your point of order cannot be on top of a point of order! [Interjections.] Deputy Speaker, I am saying that the Rules are very clear. You amend a report that is before us. We have a report with recommendations and all that. What is coming from there is a Public Protector’s report. It is not an amendment of this report that we have. It is a Special Investigating Unit report and it is not an amendment to this.

We have a report. They must tell us what they are removing from this report. That is not what they are doing. You have given them the opportunity several times, Deputy Speaker, and several members here have been raising points of order. I do not want to have to think that we on this side are being denied raising points of order and being heard - because we have been rising on points of order. We request you to take a decision and assist us in this House to conclude our business. We cannot be held to ransom. [Applause.]

An HON MEMBER: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker, on a point of order, Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the question before the House - the motion - is that the report be adopted. Are there any objections to the report being adopted? [Interjections.]

Hon MEMBERS: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker! Point of order! [Interjections.]

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Deputy Speaker, I am still on the floor! Point of order, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, who is talking? Hon members, please take your seats. You cannot all be on your feet. Take your seats, hon members. Hon members, the Table is drawing my attention to the other hon member here for the amendment. What was the amendment about?

Mr R P RAMAKATSA: Point of order, Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, but we have ... [Interjection.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, you know that you cannot move a second amendment on top of another one. Can you please settle the issue that is on the Table now? If you want to take a different amendment, we can listen to that. But can you give us an indication that we can continue with our amendment, or tell us that we cannot continue.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon members, I have given you an opportunity to continue. I have given you that opportunity before and you have not taken it up, hon members. You have not come with an amendment. So, it is done, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But it is not done! You cannot tell me that I am done before I am done.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, it is done. As far as I am concerned, hon member, you have been given ample opportunity to do that. [Applause.] I suggest that we move to the next amendment. We cannot put that together.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, you need to indicate to me that I am not allowed to continue ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, I am saying to you ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... because I am not … No, when I was speaking here you are the one who told me to sit down because Nkhensani there was speaking and another person there was speaking - the gentleman who is wearing spectacles, there. He was speaking while I was still talking; I did not stop voluntarily. You stopped me. You are the one who told me to sit down and now, when I have to continue with my motion, you say that I stopped. I never stopped! Allow me to continue.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Waters, please take your seat. Hon Shivambu, I have given you the opportunity to wrap up on several occasions. I also asked you to wrap up finally, hon member. Instead you replied to me that you are continuing to read ... [Interjections.] ... in other words, in defiance of my request to you to wrap up. Now I am suggesting to you that we are moving to the next amendment for consideration, so that we are able to see how we handle that one and then we will proceed. Hon Waters, proceed. [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: No, no! On a point of order, Deputy Speaker, this is very simple. No, you cannot insist on moving on to the hon Waters before you resolve our matter.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have resolved it, hon Malema.

Mr J S MALEMA: What is the decision? Are you refusing us?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The decision is that you have been given ample opportunity to raise an amendment. Even when we thought you did, you refuse to accept it as your amendment. So we are taking that you are not coming up with an amendment. [Applause.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, you have on a number of occasions ... [Interjections.] You have asked Floyd to sit down to allow other people to call points of order. You should have allowed him, after all the points of order, to conclude his motion and then we move.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you and your members have been doing exactly what you are suggesting. The hon Shivambu would long have been finished if you, your members and other members in the House did not do that. So, it is correct: It is legitimate for members to raise points of order. Now, that is done. Can we move on to the next amendment?

Mr J S MALEMA: What happened to this motion? You want to take a motion on top of a motion!

Dr D T GEORGE: Point of order, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.] My point of order is that you recognised our member and now we expect our member to be able to put his motion. We do not wish to be interrupted anymore. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am doing that, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, I am still on the floor with the motion. Am I continuing or not? [Interjections.] Wait, wait, wait and relax, guys.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, you are not allowed to continue.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: So, I am not allowed to continue with the motion?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much. We have noted that.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, I move to amend the report in front of us, as follows: That this House deletes everything from page 17, following point 28 in the report, to be replaced with a minority report - which is here and I will not read it out - with the following four recommendations:

(a) The composition of the committee is problematic. It has to be considered whether the current composition based on proportional representation ensures a fair, unbiased process. (b) The Act has to be amended to be more specific in terms of the procedures and the requirements to ensure a procedurally fair inquiry process. (c) Both the Rules and the Act do not provide for an appeal, although an administrative action can be taken to court on review, it is a time-consuming, costly procedure. This should be amended in the Rules and the Act by making provision for an appeal process. And, (d) that the process is restarted, with due consideration to the requirements in the Powers and Privileges Act, in which is stipulated that it must be a reasonably and procedurally fair process, and the composition of the Powers and Privileges Committee is reconsidered to give effect to the principles of natural justice. I so move.

An HON MEMBER: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Allow me to make a ruling, hon member.

NO PROVISION FOR MINORITY REPORT IN RULE 137(4)

(Ruling)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, you are fully aware that in terms of the Rules, specifically Rule 137(4), there is no provision for minority reports. While proposing an amendment to the recommendations contained in the report would be in order, the submission of a wholly new report as an amendment is not supported by our Rules or practice.

In terms of Rule 96, an amendment to a Draft Resolution may only be moved that is allowed by the presiding officer. I rule that your amendment, sir, is in contravention of Rule 137(4) and is therefore out of order. It is not allowed in terms of Rule 9(c).

Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, may I address you on that point?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think there is a difference between a minority report and what the hon member just now proposed. The hon member clearly said that he proposes an amendment to the report, not a minority report. He proposed … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order, hon members.

Dr P W A MULDER: He proposed that the current report be amended, that certain pages after page 17 be deleted and replaced with a different wording. I would suggest that you put that motion and that amendment to the House and that the House decides on that, instead of ruling it out of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, the member himself mentioned the minority report.

Mr G A GARDEE: Order, Deputy Speaker! I rise on a point of order that the Chief Whip is advising the Table, so we are being ruled by the ANC here. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the hon member has a choice to put an amendment without reference to the report, in which case it would be in order. Otherwise it is out of order.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes.

Mr M WATERS: I withdraw the words “minority report” and then it will be in order. May I just say, Deputy Speaker, that there is precedence in the House for amendments to take place to reports. If you look at the ATC on 12 November 2014, you will see full amendments to a report, pertaining to the Nkandla report. There has been precedence, so I withdraw the words “minority report”, but we do have our amendments here. If you want me to read them, I will, but I do not think it is going to help the House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, in what I read to you I told you that what is out of order is not the words “minority report”. You referred to a minority report that you are submitting and we are pointing out that it is disallowed. What we can put before the House is the amendment that you have made in what you were saying as recorded here. That is what we will put before the House.

Members, there is an amendment to the motion. [Applause.] Those in favour say “Aye”.

HON MEMBERS: Aye! [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon members, let … [Laughter.]

Mr G A GARDEE: No, Deputy Speaker, we have it. It is closed and we can no longer vote. We have it now! [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the motion before the House is that the amendment to the motion of the Chief Whip be amended…

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order, hon member?

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, it looks like you are repeating what you have already done. You asked for the ayes and they are there. You must proceed because that is on record.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I am repeating. Hon members, let me put the...

Mr M Q NDLOZI: These are the consequences of a choir, you see.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, may I address you? We have talked about the Rules being implemented fairly and consistently. You put the question and everyone on both sides of the House said, ”Aye”! [Interjections.] [Applause.]

HON MEMBERS: No! No!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, let me read to you what the Rule says. Please, allow me. [Interjections.] No, hon members, can you take your seats first, please. Hon members, Rule 79, “Question put again”, says that if the presiding officer has put a question and it is not heard or understood, he or she shall put it again. [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. It cannot be that when they have voted correctly - with the opposition - you have the discretion to think that they did not understand it. They understood it very well. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The voting has not occurred, hon member.

Mr G A GARDEE: They did understand it very well, Deputy Speaker. You are very unfair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. Hon members, the question before the House...

Mr P G MOTEKA: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I am in the middle of a procedure here.

Mr P G MOTEKA: Point of order, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What’s your point of order?

Mr P G MOTEKA: The point of order is that the opposition has won this and you can go and account to Luthuli House. What happened here is that the opposition has won and you cannot redo that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There has been no voting yet, hon member. You do not realise that. [Interjections.] I cannot believe this! [Interjections.] Do you really think ... [Interjections.] Hon members, let me proceed. There is a Rule here that I read to you. I have read a Rule to you and I am assuming that you agree with us that we must use the Rules consistently - hon Waters said so himself. I am doing that now; I think members are getting tired. Hon members, the question before us is the amendment of the...

Ms S V KALYAN: With all due respect, point of order. Deputy Speaker, with all due respect, you are manipulating the Rule to suit your cause. [Interjections.] You put the question, you got the reply and now you are invoking Rule 79, based on the fact that you either did not hear it or did not understand it. Will you make the point clear first which is that you are replying? Did you not hear the ayes or did you not understand it? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: This is very easy for me, hon Kalyan. I will put...

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, just for the record: The question that you put to the House was that the motion be adopted. And that is what the members said “aye” to. [Interjections.] So, if we follow that logic, then it is the Chief Whip’s motion that has been adopted. What I think you intended to do was to put the amendment to the motion. This is just for the record.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, this simply confirms the point I am making. Anyway, let me ask the question.

Mr M WATERS: No, Deputy Speaker. May I please address you? I think the hon Deputy Minister is deliberately confusing the House. The question was clear and the same thing happened for the Nkandla report, if you remember. The ANC voted “Aye” for the amendment and if the ANC wants to call for a division afterwards, it is up to them, but the fact of the matter is that the majority of the House said “Aye” and the report has been adopted. [Interjections.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, there is no crisis or train smash; nothing serious.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Absolutely.

Dr P W A MULDER: The point is that you have called for the House to respond to the amendment you put and a number of members said aye. That is not the end of the voting process. So, if some members are unhappy with that, they can call for a division. Then we proceed with the division and we will have a result. So, you do not need to apply Rule 79; you can just conclude the process that you have started.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, even if there was confusion about the ayes, there was no second question that asked for the noes. So, the whole matter is not concluded at all. I agree with the hon Mulder. Put the question, hon Deputy Speaker, please.

Dr P W A MULDER: Sorry, hon Deputy Speaker, we are in the middle of the process. You asked for the ayes and we have had the ayes. Now I suggest that you ask those who say no to say no. Then, after that, we proceed and somebody may ask for a division. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Hon members, those against, say no.

HON MEMBERS: No!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The noes have it.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, I think some people voted twice, but the DA calls for division.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. Order! The House will be adjourned for five minutes and the bells will be rung after that.

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, before we take the break, we need a secret ballot, please. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, I will address you on that.

BUSINESS RESUMED AFTER FIVE MINUTES.

Question put: That the amendment moved by Mr Waters be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]

Question not agreed to.

Amendment accordingly negatived.

Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, may I just enquire from you: Is it your ruling that this is the only amendment before the House before you proceed with the main question?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, as far as we are aware, yes.

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of clarity, just before you read the question to the House, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member? You are not allowed to do that. We are in the middle of a voting session.

Mr G A GARDEE: Yes, just before that. [Interjections.] The EFF requests that in the coming motion that we are going to vote on, and where we are going to call for a division, you make a ruling that we vote by secret ballot because there are people on that side who are ready to vote with us. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is all right, hon member, I will address you on that matter.

Mr G A GARDEE: Please do!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will now put the question.

Mr S J MALEMA: Deputy Speaker, address the issue of the secret ballot, please. We want the secret ballot!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, there is no provision in the Constitution or the Rules of the Assembly that requires that a vote on an amendment be conducted by way of a secret ballot. A vote by secret ballot is only applicable in specific instances in terms of the Constitution, namely when there is more than one candidate nominated for the position of President, Speaker or Deputy Speaker. Votes in the House have always been conducted in an open and transparent manner in the past. No secret ballot will be taken. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, you know, the secrecy of a vote is the most sacrosanct principle in democracy. [Interjections.] You cannot underestimate that, because we have got people on that side who want to vote against this thing. But they cannot do it because they are going to be voting like robots and they are going to be fired and all these other things. Can you please allow Parliament to decide on a secret ballot, which will be democratically monitored, whether the EFF members must be suspended or not? Because I can assure you that if we put it on a secret ballot, the outcome will not be what it is going to be now. Can you please consider that? This is a plea: We can move a motion that the House adopts that we can use a secret ballot, if that is the way to go about it, please!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I have made a ruling on this matter. I am bound by the Constitution and the Rules of the House. [Interjections.] The bells will be rung for a minute since a division has been called.

MR G A GARDEE, Deputy Speaker, before ... [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Question put: That the motion moved by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]

Question agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, what happens now? Must we go, because we are suspended?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members ...

Mr J S MALEMA: We must go?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, can we have clarity in terms of the period of our suspension? Are you suspending us from today, until when? Because you have just suspended us now, with the choir, but from when are we being suspended? Are we leaving now, or are you going to suspend us for a period that will include 12 February 2015?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, the decision of the House will be communicated to you ...

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: So now you have not suspended us?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... by the Table. You will participate in the procedures here.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Okay, that is fine. We will wait for the communication. We will take it from there, then. Bye-bye.

Hon MEMBERS: Bye!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: And have a very bad Christmas. [Interjections.]

The Deputy Speaker ruled that the members of the Economic Freedom Fighters affected by the recommendations of the Report would be informed in writing about the period of their suspension.

THIRD TO SIXTH ORDERS

SECOND ORDER

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS - STRATEGIC PLANNING SESSION HELD FROM 29 TO 30 JULY 2014

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON WATER AND SANITATION - OVERSIGHT VISIT TO MADIBENG LOCAL MUNICIPALITY IN NORTH WEST PROVINCE

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING – OVERSIGHT VISIT TO NATIONAL STUDENT FINANCIAL AID OFFICE IN WYNBERG

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING – OVERSIGHT VISIT TO NORTH WEST UNIVERSITY AND VUSELELA TECHNICAL AND VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND TRAINING COLLEGE

There was no debate.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move:

That Orders 3 to 6 be adopted.

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, hon member?

Dr C P MULDER: My apologies. I was trying to raise my point of order before we had clarity now. I would like to request the hon Chief Whip not to put all those Orders at the same time because we intend to object to Order No 6.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, I have noted the point of order. What I will do is allow for each of those Orders to be put for a decision. So, if there is a party that wants to object, it can do so. But they can all be tabled together.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:

That the Report of Standing Committee on Appropriations on Strategic planning session held from 29 to 30 July 2014 be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report of Standing Committee on Appropriations on Strategic Planning Session held from 29 to 30 July 2014 accordingly adopted.

FOURTH ORDER

THIRD ORDER

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:

That the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Water and Sanitation on Oversight visit to Madibeng Local Municipality in North West Province be adopted.

Declarations of vote:

Mr L J BASSON: Chair, it was a shocking experience to see the lack of service delivery in Madibeng at the Rietfontein and Mothutlung sewage treatment plants. The municipality undertook to have the Rietfontein plant repaired within three months. This has not happened. The Mothutlung sewage plant is nonfunctional and raw sewage is running into a dam within a residential area of the Mothutlung area. The area is not fenced and is a danger to children playing at the dam. The plant has been vandalised in such a manner that it will cost millions to repair.

Currently, this municipality has been rated the worst secondary city in South Africa in the Blue and Green Drop report of the Department of Water and Sanitation. E.coli levels in Madibeng sewage plants exceed the maximum of 1 000 per 100ml and are currently measuring more than 1 million per 100ml.

Madibeng is a municipality that is currently run under section 154 of the Constitution. The ministerial task team recommended this instead of section 139(1)(b). After months, it is now clear that this intervention is not assisting in changing the situation in Madibeng.

The ANC council is interfering in the work of the acting municipal manager appointed by the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. The number of outstanding debtors is increasing by more than R10 million per month. Currently, the Madibeng debtors’ book exceeds R1 billion.

More than 25 000 water meters and 11 000 electricity meters are not read at all. The City of Tshwane cut the electricity of Madibeng two weeks ago, leaving thousands of households without electricity and water – this while residents paid the Madibeng Local Municipality. This electricity cut also influenced the water and sewage treatment plants that were nonfunctional.

Currently, the Madibeng Local Municipality owes Eskom R55 million, and Tshwane owes R25 million for electricity. The DA has requested the Minister of Water and Sanitation to table the report on the “Failure of water supply in Madibeng”, dated 10 April 2014. This report made recommendations to assist the turnaround strategy. Minister Mokonyane is failing the community of Madibeng by not releasing the report. Madibeng has been in discussion in this House on numerous occasions and still Minister Pravin Gordhan ignores the DA’s request to assist the community of Madibeng by placing it under section 139(1)(b). Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr P J GROENEWALD

Mr L J BASSON

Afrikaans:

Dr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, die Departement van Waterwese het ’n advertensie wat hy gebruik in die media wat sê die volgende wêreldoorlog sal nie gaan oor grond wat beset moet word nie, maar oor water.

Die werklikheid is, as ons nie skoon water het om te drink nie, kan ons nie lewe nie. Ek is bly die agb Minister van Samewerkende Regering en Tradisionele Sake is hier. Die groot probleem in Noordwes is dat feitlik al daardie munisipaliteite – nie feitlik nie, almal van hulle – deel is van ’n ondersoek van die Spesiale Ondersoekeenheid. Ons het swak bestuur; ons het onkunde daar. Hoekom? Dit is as gevolg van die faksiegevegte van die regerende ANC party. Hulle raak ontslae van die kundigheid as gevolg van regstellende aksie.

Ons het die situasie gehad in Bloemhof waar drie kinders gesterf het as gevolg van swak water. Dan wil ek nou vandag vir u sê, Voorsitter: As daar nie drasties ingegryp gaan word nie – Madibeng is een geval, en ons het nou die verslag, maar Madibeng is maar net die begin. Ek wil ’n beroep op die agb Minister doen. Raak ontslae van die onbevoegde persone, vergeet die politieke agendas, stel die kundiges aan, ongeag wat hulle kleur is, en kry plaaslike regering in Noordwes reg. Anders gaan daar meer sterftes wees, en dan sal die agb Minister moet kom verantwoord. Ek dank u.

Ms C N MAJEKE

Dr P J GROENEWALD

Ms C N MAJEKE: Hon Chair, the UDM supports the report and the recommendations therein. We wish to emphasise the importance of the direct participation of communities. The report identifies the lack of this as one of the contributing factors to community resentment and accusations of corruption.

People-centred development builds communities’ capacity, knowledge and skills, making them better at managing themselves, their resources and their development. In this way and through their direct participation, people develop themselves. Once evolved, individuals are able to participate in their own development, therefore owning their progress, their public facilities and their socioeconomic infrastructure. In turn, this reduces the incidence of theft and damage and increases the levels of ownership and pride. In this regard, we further support the call made by the portfolio committee on the relevant authorities to improve communication and present progress reports accordingly.

Once again, we caution against communication that takes the form of just informing and announcing decisions and actions. This communication must include facilitating the process of communicating, learning and growth, enabling people to elicit and increase their power and generate solutions to their own problems. Let the leadership be provided and lead communities in saying, “We have been part of it. We did it ourselves. We own it, and we shall defend and preserve it.” As in the words of Hettne: “Development concerns people, it affects their way of life and is influenced by their conceptions of the good life, as determined by their cultures.” I thank you.

Mr M JOHNSON

MS C N MAJEKE

Mr M JOHNSON: Hon Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC, having been to the area on 23 September, among other things that we said was that we immediately called on the Madibeng Municipality the following day, which was a public holiday, to go out there and fix a hole that made it difficult for children to play because it needed to be filled. Having communicated with the mayor of the area, it was reported that the hole was fixed immediately. That is a work in progress in a whole range of other areas.

I must mention before I even go further that we in the committee treat this important area of service delivery as a very important political matter. We all agree that we do not need to politicise a matter of importance because it really cuts across the board. It does not even refer to you as a member of a certain political party that you have to receive water because of your party affiliation. No, it does not say that. That is why this is an important area that must unite us all. We should not make it a political football, as some of us wish to.

Among other things that the committee observed in the report is vandalism and the theft of water and infrastructure. Another issue of importance is that the municipalities are expected to budget 10% of their budget for maintenance. The water that is unaccounted for in the Madibeng community area amounts to 75%. This is something that is quite urgent and must be looked into.

The quality of water is another very important area. Its importance has been mentioned by the speaker of community participation and it is critical. While we are discussing the report, I must mention as well that had it not been for the session that we are having today, we would have been in the Madibeng area tomorrow. Some of our recommendations included that we follow up within a period of three months. We must go back there and we had planned to go back there tomorrow.

However, the report that we received from the municipalities was circulated to members. It talks about a number of boreholes that have been drilled and equipped. These have since been commissioned. The Makau Pumping Station has since been refurbished. This involved two mechanical pumps, the electrical panel and the repair of piping in the pumping station. All of those have since been looked into.

What is equally important is the dire need for collaboration among the departments, among others Cogta, Human Settlements and Water and Sanitation. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Motion agreed to.

Report of Portfolio Committee on Water and Sanitation on oversight visit to Madibeng Local Municipality in North West Province accordingly adopted.

ORDER 5

ORDER 4

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:

That the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training on Oversight Visit to National Student Financial Aid Office in Wynberg be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report of Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training on Oversight Visit to National Student Financial Aid Offices in Wynberg accordingly adopted.

ORDER 6

ORDER 5

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move:

That the Report of Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training on Oversight Visit to North West University and Vuselela Technical and Vocational Education and Training College be adopted.

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, it was very close. Please note the objection of the FF Plus.

Motion agreed to (Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Report of Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training on Oversight Visit to North West University and Vuselela Technical and Vocational Education and Training College accordingly adopted.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): The objection of the FF Plus is noted. We have now concluded the reports as they appear on the Order Paper. We have now reached the point, hon members, where we will give our farewell speeches to each other, as we are coming to the end of the session.

FAREWELL SPEECHES

SIXTH ORDER

FAREWELL SPEECHES

Mr T R MAJOLA: House Chairperson and hon members, this is our last sitting of Parliament for this year. We have come to the end of our business. However, we acknowledge that this was an election year and, as usual, it came with its own challenges. In addition, this House experienced its own crisis. The dignity and the decorum of this House have been pushed to the limits and beyond.

As we enter the festive season, let us make time to reflect on past year, let us make time to relax and enjoy our families and friends, let us rejuvenate ourselves and return to Parliament with a renewed spirit and commitment ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, order! Can we please limit our movements? Those who are going out, do so quietly, without disturbing the member at the podium. Hon member, you may proceed.

Mr T R MAJOLA: ... and let us always remember that we are public representatives who should always act with dignity and honour.

I wish everybody, including our fellow South Africans, a blessed and joyous festive season and a prosperous new year. I wish you a safe journey and return.

IsiZulu:

Hambani kahle nibuye niphephile. Ngiyabonga. [Applause.]

MR A M MPONTSHANE

Mr T R MAJOLA

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Chairperson and members, this year has seen the tragic loss, particularly to the IFP, of the hon members Ben Skosana and Dr Mario Oriani-Ambrosini, and it has been painful to bear. We appreciate, however, the immense support and respect expressed by our colleagues in this House.

In many ways, colleagues, 2014 has been a milestone year for us all. It has seen the end of the Fourth Parliament and the opening of the Fifth Parliament. It has seen our country’s fifth national democratic election and the celebration of 20 years of democracy.

As we, the elected representatives of our people, consider our performance this past year, we must ask ourselves what 2014 would be remembered for. Will it be remembered for these milestones events, or will it simply be remembered as the year that Parliament collapsed into disorder and division? We must restore the dignity of this House. As the leader of the IFP, the hon Prince Buthelezi often reminds us that it is possible to express strong disagreement without expressing disrespect.

The year 2014 has been marked by a lack of harmony and consensus on several significant issues. As the Deputy President himself admits, the Rules have not always been fairly applied when adjudicating these disputes and there is a level of favour shown to the ruling party. That is wholly undemocratic. We are faced with the question of how to proceed, in the interests of serving our people and serving democracy. I believe that in order to move forward we need to change our focus. The issues that divide us must be resolved. But our focus must now return to common ground. What is it that unites us in the service of our nation? That is the question we must ask ourselves.

There are issues of national significance that all of our diverse constituencies care about; issues like employment generation, rescuing our education system, securing a lower cost of living and restoring ethical values at all levels of our society.

It is in pursuit of these noble goals that our people gave us these seats. We have a responsibility to seek common ground because, for better or worse, what happens in this House is considered a microcosm of what is happening in South Africa. The question is: Are we a nation divided? Are we a nation that is at other’s throats or are we a nation of diversity, seeking shared success, shared wellbeing and shared freedom? Let us take these reflections into the festive season. Perhaps distance and time will allow us to frame a renewed perspective reminding us that we are not here to entertain our people but to serve them.

On behalf of the IFP, I wish to thank all those who make our work here possible. We appreciate the commitment of Parliament’s support staff, presiding officers, security and service officers. We wish these and every Member of Parliament a good rest, safe travels and a positive start to 2015. I thank you.

Mr M C MNCWABE

Mr A M MPONTSHANE

Mr M C MNCWABE: Madam Speaker and hon members, as the NFP we wish to take this opportunity to say farewell to all our hon colleagues in this House. However, we are mindful that as we say goodbye and wish each other well, there remains unfinished business that we have failed to address adequately as the National Assembly. It is our deep and sincere wish that these issues be prioritised when we meet again, and that we will find a solution sooner rather than later.

We are also mindful of the continued destructive violence directed at women and children. We call on all South Africans to support fully and wholeheartedly the 16 Days of Activism. Let us continue to spread the message far and wide that we treasure our women and we treasure our children. We wish all hon members of this House a period of rest, peace and blessings. May we all reassemble here again in 2015, filled with renewed vigour and the willingness to serve our people in the best possible way and with the greatest possible benefit to all. I thank you.

Mr N L S KWANKWA

Mr S C MNCWABE

Mr N L S KWANKWA: Madam Speaker, hon members and fellow South Africans, we have reached that time of the year when we have to bid each other farewell as we prepare to go to our constituencies and homes.

I am indebted to all the previous speakers for so ably and graciously bidding you farewell. Despondently, though, I possess neither the eloquence of diction, nor the linguistic prowess to either match or surpass the outstanding farewell messages. I therefore enlist your collaboration in plagiarising them when I say: Fare thee well, comrades and friends. May you all have a joyous festive season and a prosperous New Year.

However, in bidding each other farewell, we ought to look back at the distance we have come since the beginning of the fifth democratic Parliament. Despite minor turbulences, working together, we have passed laws and made many important decisions that ensured and continue to ensure a better life for all South Africans. For this, we should therefore pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.

Hon members, we must admit, however, that there were many times over the past six months when we did not cover ourselves in glory. Too often, we allowed our personal differences and narrow ideological cleavages to distract us from the important task of building a winning nation and ensuring a better life for all. Rather than using words carefully to give our people hope that today is better than yesterday and that tomorrow will be better than today, at times we succumbed to the illogical temptation to use words in a manner that unintentionally sowed hatred, contempt and despair. Yes, we must engage in robust and uninhibited debates, but they have to be respectful.

However, given the importance to our country of the proposals and the decisions we make in this House, we all have a responsibility to be vigilant and to scrutinise them. As Pierre du Pont, a deputy from Nemours to the French National Assembly, put it on 25 September 1790:

Gentlemen, it is a disagreeable custom to which one is too easily led by the harshness of the discussions, to assume evil intentions. It is necessary to be gracious as to intentions; one should believe them good, and apparently they are; but we do not have to be gracious at all to inconsistent logic or to absurd reasoning. Bad logicians have committed more involuntary crimes than bad men have done intentionally.

In building a South Africa that continues to be a beacon of hope for Africa and the world, we should use other people’s viewpoints as a rearview mirror through which to enhance our views on any matter. At no stage should we allow our emotions and bad behaviour to overwhelm our ability to reason. Our people sent us here. Our people did not put us here so we can turn every debate into a nasty verbal ping pong, nor did they send us here so we could, through our actions, divide them. They sent us here to contribute to building a better life for all.

I have no doubt in my mind that working together we can and will build a winning nation, united in our diversity. Once more, may you all have a joyous festive season and a prosperous New Year. I thank you very much. [Applause.]

Dr C P MULDER

Mr N L S KWANKWA

Dr C P MULDER: Speaker, we have come to the end of a rather busy term, if I can put it that way, or a very rough seven months since the election.

We all are members of political parties, and I think we all know that when you have a meeting of a political party, whatever structure it may be, and members of your party turn up with the rules or the constitution of the party, you know you are in for a difficult time. When people take out the rules, they take out the rules for a specific reason. I think we have experienced that in the past seven months. Be that as it may, I think it has been a learning curve for all of us, and I think all of us now might have better insight into the Rules of Parliament and its processes.

I would like to say thank you to each and every one of our colleagues. We have come through a difficult time, perhaps, and it is now time to go to our homes, to our families, to our communities and to rest and recharge our batteries for the next term and for the next session, which starts early next year.

In this process, we sometimes tend to forget about all the parliamentary staff on different levels. Be that catering, be that administration, be that the Clerk of the Papers, be that the Serjeant-at-Arms, we sometimes forget to say thank you to them as well. They are working tirelessly behind the scenes day and night to make it possible for us in this place to do our jobs. We also tend to forget the media – for whom we, perhaps, secured an interesting time to report. I understand that the ratings of the parliamentary channel have shot through the roof in the last couple of weeks. I do not know why, but maybe we do. Thank you to each and every one of them who did what they did.

Maybe we should all remember when we go home that, whether we like it or not, people out there who voted for Members of Parliament, who elected us, are looking up to Members of Parliament as leaders of the community. If we expect people to respect us, we should set the example in terms of how we behave ourselves in the House; in our democracy; in our Parliament. Maybe we should all go home and reflect in this time and ask ourselves whether we are upholding that expectation of the people out there who supported and voted for each one of us and elected us.

Afrikaans:

Waar ons uiteen gaan, wil ek vir u sê geseënde Kersfees en ’n voorspoedige tyd vorentoe saam met u geliefdes. Ons dink aan kollegas wat ons ontval het in hierdie jaar, aan families wat sonder hulle is. Wees veilig, gaan rus rustig, en kom terug volgende jaar. Dan is ons uitgerus en sien ons kans vir die nuwe jaar en die nuwe geveg wat voorlê. Ek wens u almal ’n veilige vakansie toe. Baie dankie. [Applous.]

Ms D CARTER

Dr C P MULDER

Ms D CARTER: Speaker, as we end this year, 2014, Cope would like to wish all South Africans, our colleagues and the staff a prosperous festive season. Please, do not drink and drive, and also, for motorcyclists, look twice and save a life.

To keep the sense of humour of the last 20 years, I felt that it would be wrong if we did not try and do what has been tradition for the last 20 years. With Koos van der Merwe gone, the spirit of levity has also left the House. Oom Koos was not the butt of a Van der Merwe joke. He was the joker himself. With his exit, the House is no longer the same.

The compilers of an English dictionary of phrases and idioms will now have to enter a new meaning to the phrase, “the ruling party saw red”. The red it saw was like a red rag to a bull.

This Fifth Parliament is also unique in the extent to which Cope saw dispersal to the front of it, as well as to the right of it, and even to the left of it. This Parliament has also been very different from previous ones. It is said that absence makes the heart grow fonder. The absence of a President has, indeed, made many of us miss him sorely – some more than most. Before 1994, Members of Parliament were permitted to wear their hats only at the time of the farewell speeches. Our leader, at the beginning of this year, ate his hat, as you all saw. In solidarity with him, we all left our hats at home today.

As we get ready to go our different ways, the big question is whether the adjective “honourable” will survive into the next sitting. This word looks like being the first casualty of this session. While that word is in danger, the word “filibustering” has come into vogue. I must confess: In the beginning, I really did not really know what it meant, but now I am quite an expert.

Let us enjoy the festive season with our families and loved ones, and let us return to a lively but not a rowdy assembly. If I can just give a last tip to everyone who still wants to fill the Christmas stockings, please ensure that we get some vouchers for manicures and pedicures and please also GPS vouchers so that none of us can get lost. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY

Ms D CARTER

Ms C DUDLEY: Hon Speaker, in the realm of politics, where Members of Parliament reside, it is easy to get caught up in the game of politics. This in itself is not a crime, as politicians do what they think they must to convince people they can deliver a better government. The lines blur, however, when discrediting at any cost those seen as standing in the way of either arresting or holding on to power becomes the focus; and where we start undermining democratic institutions, creating chaos and trying to render Parliament unworkable or the country ungovernable. Then we have gone too far.

When we take ourselves and the game of seeking power too seriously, we forget the reason for the power. It is not about us; it is about the people we represent. We cannot and must not use and abuse the responsibility we have, not only to this generation but to future generations. As a people who, despite reservations, chose to find each other to build a nation based on democratic principles and freedoms and to leave a worthwhile legacy for future generations, I would say we are going to have to show greater respect for each other and for those we represent.

We have come to the end of a very short and challenging year for Parliament, but we got here. I am grateful, and I am hopeful that we can go the distance and stand the test of time. As I stand here on behalf of my colleagues in the ACDP, I want to appreciate everyone who has been involved in the life and work of Parliament this year and pray that we will all grow in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man.

Christmas is a time for giving, and in the spirit of Christmas I want to give you something to take from today that I think is special. It is a song that is the creative work of André de Villiers. Sadly, both the Rules of Parliament and my singing ability do not allow for it to be sung. I hope that you will hear what I hear as I read these words to you:

You and me we’re made the same

We’ve got things to lose; we’ve got things to gain

We see from different points of view

But when I look at your life it’s like déjà vu

There’s a little bit of you in me and me in you

You’ve got me and I’ve got you.

Evening and morning make the day

Where the sun comes up somewhere it fades away

It all depends upon your point of view

When I look at your life it’s like déjà vu

There’s a little bit of you in me and me in you

You’ve got me and I’ve got you.

Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr L M NTSHAYISA

Ms C DUDLEY

Mr L M NTSHAYISA: Hon Speaker, let me start off by requesting hon members in this House to congratulate us as the AIC on having obtained a seat in Ngaka Modiri Molema in the North West. [Interjections.] That is indeed a great achievement. I am sure we are getting in one by one, bit by bit. In Afrikaans they say:

Afrikaans:

Agteros kom ook in die kraal.

English:

... steadily but surely. As the AIC, we have learnt both the good and the bad in this Parliament. We regard this period that we have been here as a marathon because of what has been happening in this very House. We really need to go home, have a rest and come back fresh, re-informed, transformed, dedicated, devoted and committed to the mandate that we received from our people who elected us to this Parliament.

We are very disappointed to say that when we came here we found chaotic and unbecoming behaviour in this very important institution. I come from a local municipality where everything was quiet. You could not just stand up and speak, without having been recognised by the Speaker, yet it has been happening here and it was very unbecoming of us. I think and hope it will not happen again when we come back.

We must be the change and the change must start with us as hon members. We should not be hon members as was the case with Brutus, who was honourable, but he committed a sin. We should really be hon members. [Interjections.]

You don’t understand me? I am saying that Brutus was always regarded as honourable, but in fact he was not honourable. We should be hon members; we should not do anything that is otherwise. [Interjections.]

As the AIC we wish each and every member of this House a safe journey back home. Come back and do the work that our people have mandated us to come and do, because what is important is service delivery. That is our core business.

This festive season we should learn how to give to needy people because the hand that gives is the hand that is always filled with blessings. Let us therefore go home and rejoice, and come back fully refreshed. Hon Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity and I wish everyone a merry Christmas and a happy New Year. May God bless you. Thank you.

Mr M A PLOUAMMA

Mr L M NTSHAYISA

Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Speaker, Agang SA wishes hon members well during this festive season. Please don’t drink and drive; care for the sick and poor before buying expensive whiskey; don’t gain weight; and exercise and eat healthy foods.

On behalf of Agang SA, we want to say that we are very honoured to be part of this Fifth Parliament family. Irrespective of our political differences, we love you all and we care for you, because we are all children of this country. Please use this opportunity to refresh and recharge, and during this festive season let us pray for ourselves to be anointed with the spirit of humility, tolerance and respect. Thank you.

Mr N T GODI

Mr M A PLOUAMMA

Mr T GODI: Hon Speaker, comrades and hon members, it has been a tumultuous seven months of the Fifth Parliament. Of all the things that have happened, the APC sympathises with the presiding officers, for they have had to deal with conduct totally alien to the history of the post-1994 Parliament.

Everywhere one goes there is hardly a good word about or impression of this House and of us as members. This is due to the schoolyard behaviour of some among us. There appears to be a definite intent to render the House ungovernable by undermining and frustrating everything.

As we go on recess, the call of the APC is for all of us to review our conduct and to put the interests of the people who voted us here first. The people deserve better. May we all be well during the festive season and come back with renewed energy and conduct better befitting us as hon members.

Let’s take the message of last Friday with us to our constituencies – that is the message of fighting against the abuse of women, children, the elderly and especially the disabled. This is a campaign that should not last for 16 days but throughout the year. The APC wishes everyone well, including the entire staff of Parliament, who serve us here in the House, in the committees and in the administration. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY:

Mr N T GODI

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers and hon members, I want to begin my address with an excerpt from the preamble to our Constitution, which is the founding manuscript of our nation, and I quote:

We, the people of South Africa, recognise the injustices of our past; honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land; respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.

The preamble of our Constitution also commits us to heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights.

The behaviour that has been displayed in this House, where the Rules have constantly been undermined in order to push an agenda of defiance and disruption, is indeed a dangerous phenomenon in the life of our democracy. We have witnessed how tension has escalated into violence in this House. We have witnessed a clear disregard for the presiding officers of this House who are tasked with ensuring that this House functions effectively, as guided by the Rules of the House. We have witnessed senseless behaviour, mudslinging and character assassination tactics that have inflicted great damage not only on the affected individuals but mostly on the reputation and credibility of this institution.

I believe that it is imperative to reflect and do introspection on why this platform, which is the vanguard of transformation and reconciliation, has been reduced to a terrain of suspicion where self is chosen over the common good of our nation. Instead of creating an environment that will foster greater tolerance for our nation at large, we have allowed this House to descend into chaos and absolute mayhem.

We must therefore ensure that the consensus that we reach on matters of contention are not broken by the politics of expediency and separatism. For the sake of this nation and to preserve the functionality of this House, we must refrain from wilfully putting the future of this nation in jeopardy. The dignity of this House must be restored and parliamentary decorum must be adhered to and preserved. This responsibility still stands and cannot be relegated or rendered irrelevant.

If we cannot shoulder the responsibility to foster a climate that would enable adherence to law and order, then those who came here to wilfully and with disdain disrupt the proceedings of this House should not interfere with those who have come to serve the people of this country. We must ensure that the configuration of this Fifth Parliament reverts to the historical significance it symbolises.

As I conclude, allow me to quote the late father of our democracy, Tata Mandela, when he said:

As I have said, the first thing is to be honest with yourself. You can never have an impact on society if you have not changed yourself yourself. Great peacemakers are all people of integrity, of honesty but humility.

As we go back home, I want to wish you all a merry Christmas and a prosperous new year. Let’s go back home and enjoy and have a good rest with our families. Let’s come back with renewed energy and wisdom and the vision to take this Parliament forward. Refrain from driving drunk, stay out of trouble and come back in one piece. Hon Mulder, please do not forget to take those pictures of the two ladies you like so much. Thank you. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY

The SPEAKER: Hon members, as the year draws to a close, it is once again time for us to reflect and bid farewell to members as we come to the end of this year’s session. In a few days’ time we, as a nation, will commemorate our first year without our beloved former President Nelson Mandela. Let us neither forget his legacy nor the many lessons he taught us. Let us heed his call, and I quote:

The time for the healing of the wounds has come. The moment to bridge the chasms that divide us has come. The time to build is upon us.

Putting aside all our differences, it would be fair to say that the Fifth Parliament has been fast-paced, eventful, robust and very busy. We certainly hit the ground running. Portfolio committees, which are the backbone of Parliament, have continued to carry out their responsibilities with rigour and diligence.

I specifically want to appreciate the long hours and the tight schedules under which committees managed to compile budgetary review and recommendation reports. Numerous public hearings and oversight visits were conducted on a range of issues of national interest. Among these were hearings on a minimum wage, policing, and water and sanitation, to name a few examples. Well done to the chairpersons of committees who provided leadership and the space for members to do their work.

Overall, we were very pleased by the interest shown by the public and their participation in the public participation processes that are available. This, once again, underlines that indeed the doors of Parliament are open to our people and that our democracy is vibrant and accessible to all. We have continued to make steady progress with regard to changes to the Rules and procedures. That said, let’s ensure that we finalise this process with haste next year.

As approximately 50% of members are new, a considerable amount of time, energy and resources were devoted to the induction and training of members. Of course, training of members in the Rules, procedures and decorum of the House is critical and, judging from the events of the last few months, this critical area needs greater prominence.

Parliament hosted a number of incoming delegations from strategic partners in the international community, including a high-level delegation from Russia, Malawi, the European Union and Israel, as well as the president, judges, secretaries-general and international organisations from The Hague. These and other delegations have interacted with parliamentarians as a component of the expanding role that national Parliament is playing in pursuit of our strategic objectives in bilateral and multilateral fora. We also continued our participation at the Inter-Parliamentary Union, the Pan-African Parliament and the SA Development Community Parliamentary Forum, among others.

We note with sadness the passing away of colleagues: the hon Ntwanambi, who passed away on 8 July; Dr Oriani-Ambrosini, who passed away on 16 August; and Michael Coetzee, Secretary to Parliament, in June 2014. We remember these individuals and their contribution with affection and a profound sense of loss.

Finally, I wish to thank the Deputy Speaker, hon Lechesa Tsenoli, for his support and dedication and long hours in the Chair, especially today. I also thank House Chairpersons Mr Cedric Frolick, Mrs Mmatlala Boroto and Mrs Thoko Didiza for their contribution to the work of the Office of the Speaker. I take this opportunity as well to thank the acting Secretary to Parliament, Baby Tyawa, for so graciously and with so much energy taking over the reins under very trying times. We are truly grateful to her.

I also wish to welcome the new Secretary to Parliament, Mr Gengezi Mgidlana, and wish him well in his new position. To the secretary of the National Assembly and the table staff, thank you very much for your outstanding support. There were times when it was not easy, but you all kept your cool. To the rest of the staff of Parliament, thank you for your hard work. You make it easier for us to do ours. Thank you very much. To my personal staff, thank you so much for your dedication and unwavering support.

Finally, I wish you all a safe and prosperous festive season and hope that you will cherish the time with your families. Thank you very much, hon members. May you really enjoy your festive season with your families.

The House adjourned at 22:02.

Audio

No related

Documents

No related documents

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 27 Nov 2014

Summary

Minutes

Audio

Documents

What's wrong with this page?