Hansard: JS: Rescheduling of Time of Debate on State of the Nation Address on 17 February 2015
House: Joint (NA + NCOP)
Date of Meeting: 18 Feb 2015
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
JOINT SITTING
18 FEBRUARY 2015
PAGE: 1
WEDNESDAY, 18 FEBRUARY 2015
PROCEEDINGS AT JOINT SITTING
_____________
Members of the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces assembled in the Chamber of the National Assembly at 14:01.
The Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces took the Chair.
The Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
START OF DAY
RESCHEDULING OF TIME OF DEBATE ON STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS ON 17 FEBRUARY 2015
(Ruling)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, I would like, right at the beginning, to take this opportunity to get back to a matter I said yesterday I would come back to the House on. That is the matter on the Minutes of the Joint Sitting, which was raised by the hon Mulder.
We had a Joint Sitting yesterday and will have Joint Sittings until tomorrow. These are usually called by the presiding officers in terms of Joint Rule 7. When calling a Joint Sitting, the presiding officers take into account discussions of the programme committees of the respective Houses.
On 29 January 2015 the programme committees agreed that the debate on the President’s state of the nation address would commence at 14:00 on Tuesday, 17 February 2015 and continue until Thursday, 19 February 2015.
However, prior to the publication of the notice calling the Joint Sitting by the Speaker and the Chairperson of the NCOP in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports on Thursday, 12 February 2015, there were further political engagements where it was agreed amongst the parties that the debate on 17 February 2015 would commence at 10:00 in the morning.
After the notice was published, further consultations occurred amongst the role-players, involving a Joint Sitting of this nature which included the Presidency. During those consultations, it was agreed that the debate would commence at 14:00 on 17 February 2015.
I am advised that the matter was further discussed at the meeting of Whips of the NA on Monday, 16 February 2015. Meanwhile, the NCOP also scheduled a sitting for 9:30 on 17 February 2015.
A notice calling the Joint Sitting was then republished in the ATC on Monday, 16 February 2015 to reflect the correct time of 14:00. This is the matter on the times for the rescheduling of the sitting. I hope this matter addresses the concerns which were raised in the House.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
OMISSIONS IN MINUTES OF JOINT SITTING ON STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS
(Ruling)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, we must also speak to the concern – I’m trying to get my papers in order – about the matter of the Minutes, and this is the point that was actually raised by the hon Mulder. I indicated that we would have the Minutes attended to, to ensure that by today they would be in the standard format of the Minutes of the Houses.
The Minutes of Proceedings are the official record of business transacted in the House and the decisions taken by the House during a plenary session. All decisions are recorded but no speeches are recorded in the Minutes, with the exception of the state of the nation address by the President. The Minutes are a concise record of business transacted in the House.
We stated yesterday that, in terms of the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act of 2004 the “journals” of Parliament:
means any recording of the proceedings of Parliament or a House or committee, including minutes, transcripts and tape recordings;
In general the Minutes of the Houses or a Joint House do not reflect individual points of order, or the decision of a political party or individual members to voluntarily leave the House.
The Minutes will, however, reflect decisions, major or unusual occurrences, and rulings from which a particular action has resulted, for example, when the presiding officer gives a considered ruling with the consequence that a member is ordered to withdraw remarks. Where proceedings are suspended, this will also be reflected.
The Minutes, together with the Hansard transcript, form the official record of proceedings and should be read together. Should there be an instance where these records are required by a court, both the Minutes of Proceedings and the Hansard will be provided to the court.
The Minutes of Proceedings of 12 February 2015 have been reprinted to reflect the matter of the cellular signal. This decision was made in view of the uniqueness of that situation, and we thank the members who raised the matter. The details of the points of order raised on the matter during the sittings, the names of the members who raised them, and the undertakings made are all captured in Hansard.
Hon members, a major issue has never been raised in relation to the Minutes. Where errors occur in the Minutes, members and parties raise these in the structures of Parliament. Where there are legitimate reasons warranting the correction and reprinting of the Minutes, this has been done. This is how these matters should be attended to and, to my knowledge, the majority of the political parties represented here are familiar with these procedures.
If members think that the Minutes of a House or both Houses should follow a different format, I suggest that this matter serves before the Rules Committees, including the Joint Rules Committee, for the Joint Rules, for consideration.
I want to thank you for your patience in listening to me making these rulings.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chairperson, ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Steenhuisen?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chairperson, I rise on Joint Rule 14L(a) to request you to consider a question of privilege. One of the privileges of Members of Parliament is unfettered access to the Chamber.
It has never been a parliamentary convention that the VIP Protection Unit are deployed to screen Members of Parliament at the Poorthuis. This has always been done by parliamentary security services. The VIP Protection Unit, whose primary responsibility is the personal protection of the President and Cabinet Ministers, are present there and are now being used to screen MPs.
I don’t expect you to rule on it now, but I would ask you if you would look into it as a question of privilege, and report back to the House at a later stage on whether it is appropriate for members of the VIP Protection Unit, who are tasked with protecting the executive, to be screening Members of Parliament, who are honourable members, on their way into the House. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Chief Whip of the DA, I will indeed make myself available to take time to look into the matter and we’ll make sure that we report back to the House.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
PRESIDENT’S ADDRESS
(Resumption of debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson of the NCOP, Your Excellency President J G Zuma, hon Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers present, hon Members of Parliament, ladies and gentlemen, and friends and foes, good afternoon. [Laughter.] Sanibonani. Molweni. Dumelang. Goeiemiddag. [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Hayi, siyaqhuba.
English:
The year 2015 marks 60 years of the Freedom Charter. It is the anniversary an historic moment in which all South Africans from all walks of life expressed their ideas and their dreams of a liberated South Africa. The President has spoken at length on the importance of understanding the Freedom Charter and the progressive implementation thereof.
Besides our Constitution, the National Development Plan too builds on the aspirations of the Freedom Charter. Today we still aspire to achieving much of what stands in the Freedom Charter, more especially creating a country where “the land shall be shared among those who work it!”
The targets set out by the President begin to address the challenges experienced. They include, firstly, the fact that 50 farming enterprises will be identified as a pilot project in connection with the 50/50 policy framework which proposes relative rights for people who live and work on farms.
Secondly, there will be the establishment of agri parks or co-operatives and clusters in the poorest 27 district municipalities of the country.
Thirdly, a ceiling of land ownership by any natural or legal person will be set at a maximum of 12 000 ha. Foreign nationals will not be allowed to own land in South Africa, but will be eligible for a long-term lease.
Fourthly, 1 million jobs will be generated in agriculture and, fifthly, 1 million ha of underutilised land will be brought into production. [Applause.]
Before we enter into frivolous talk, with a debating acumen of Grade 5, throwing mathematical figures around in regard to how much land black people in this country will own, I want to reassure the House that the ceiling of 12 000 ha does not mean that we will procure 12 000 ha of land for each land reform applicant. It will not mean that each person gets 12 000 ha. [Laughter.]
The Freedom Charter refers to “those who work on it”, that is, the land. This is a maximum ceiling set to include a reference to commodities. We are aware that 12 000 ha exceeds the average farm size but, as you may know, economies of scale differ amongst various production systems. For example, livestock producers need much more grazing land than wine or maize producers. The 12 000 ha ceiling is meant to cover all producers. Therefore, we need to discourage the practice of using the Freedom Charter as a political football in the House. It is a very serious document. [Applause.]
To achieve these targets, and to effect transformation of the sector and ensure that all South Africans benefit from growth in the sector, require greater synergy and collaboration within the sector and among several departments, more especially the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform.
To this end, the political leadership and management of these departments have forged a greater partnership, one which did not exist before. We are striving to overcome challenges of duplication and overlap by clearly defining roles and responsibilities.
While the role of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform is centred more around rural development, and land restitution and distribution, the task of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is to keep transferred land productive, allowing previously disadvantaged individuals to benefit from agricultural business and to manage the growth of the sector towards a more inclusive rural economy. However, for this to happen, more women and youth must be assisted to enter this profession, which was formerly restricted in regard to previously disadvantaged individuals.
The President, through the state of the nation address, instructed the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform to lead and to establish agri parks in each of the 27 poorest districts. A budget of R2 billion has been set aside for this, which will progressively increase through the existing budget. [Applause.]
However, whilst Land Reform has many success stories, we have not progressed with the desired outcomes. There are failures that have left many productive farms abandoned and lying fallow. Effective participation in the sector by previously disadvantaged communities will happen only when they have access to land, as well as the means to work on it. More important, though, is our capacity as a state to create conditions under which they become effective participants in the agricultural markets.
The President therefore pronounced on the commodity-based approach of the Agricultural Policy Action Plan, Apap, and the further pursuance of the 50/50 arrangements between farmers and the farm workers. We already know of progressive farmers who have begun to implement the principle of 50/50, where farm workers and farmers share ownership of the farm. The Apap, on the other hand, through Outcome 4 of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, proposes spatial economic plans aimed at guiding government investment through a value chain approach targeting priority commodities identified in the National Development Plan.
The Apap problematises growth constraints, with action shared among key role-players in the sector. Its purpose is to drive a more inclusive market agenda geared at job creation and, in turn, greater food security.
We furthermore seek to create virgin projects, together with agricultural graduates, sector organisations and surrounding communities. Government will invest in expanding its support programmes in order for land to be converted into active vibrant farming projects.
New farmers entering the agricultural market will be further encouraged to farm with the commodities of high growth potential and high labour absorption identified in Apap.
To support these farms and ensure massive economic growth, government aims to create an enabling environment by providing appropriate infrastructure in the form of fencing, dip tanks, equipment, veterinary services and extension support.
We will further encourage our entities, like Onderstepoort Biological Products, to provide affordable access to animal vaccines for improved production. We will also encourage institutions like the Agricultural Research Council to share their knowledge and resources, such as drought resistant maize cultivars.
We further aim to use government as a procurer of agricultural produce and food, as a support for smallholders, further allowing them access to both local and international markets.
Through these support programmes we better position our farmers to become self-reliant and to participate in existing markets without dependence on government support.
Land in itself is not an infinite resource. Hence, fertile and agricultural land, including grazing land, must be protected. The President has therefore called for the protection of land against foreign ownership. This is not a unique practice. Many other countries in the world are advanced in this phenomenon.
The European Union, on the other hand, effectively circumscribed the right of member states to restrict or regulate the ownership of land by foreigners who are nationals of other member states. You are only allowed to own land in the European Union if you are an EU member.
IsiZulu:
Angazi ukuthi umsindo wani lobu klewuklewu obulapha ... [Uhleko.] ... sengathi into eqala ngathi evela ezulwini kanti into evele ikhona.
English:
Moreover, cases like these include the Republic of Ireland, where foreigners – except those with seven years’ continuous residence – ... [Interjections.] I remember the President saying that if you want to own land there, you must become a citizen of the land. In Ireland they allow you to be there for seven years continuously, ...
IsiZulu:
... ungahambi hlala khona bese uba nomhlaba ke. Lo msindo wokuduma kwezulu la angiwazi.
English:
As further measures to protect agricultural land, the department is in the process of gazetting three forestry and natural resource management Bills for public consultation. These are the draft Preservation and Development of Agricultural Land Framework Bill, the National Forests Amendment Bill and the National Veld and Forest Fire Bill.
Fisheries is one of the least transformed sectors, and therefore requires a radical transformation approach from the government. [Applause.] This will further promote and enhance efforts to create new opportunities for previously disadvantaged communities.
The fishing rights allocation process is one of the government’s efforts to democratise the fishing industry, notwithstanding its own shortcomings. In this regard, the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries has extended the existing fishing rights until February 2016, affording government the time to find a more permanent solution for this troubled industry. [Applause.]
The Minister further plans to engage the big – actually huge – players of the fishing industry, such as I&J, Sea Harvest, Oceana, Blue Continent and Viking, in order to encourage them to work together with the government in finding lasting solutions for the transformation of this sector.
In the spirit of Operation Phakisa, we further seek to extend fishing activities from the West Coast to the East Coast. As things stand, all fishing ports are on the West Coast and none on the East Coast. That is why there is a province that thinks Fisheries is a provincial monopoly. No, it is a national competence. [Applause.] If it so happens that you are on the West Coast, it does not mean it belongs to you; it belongs to South Africans. [Applause.] As things stand, all fishing ports are on the West Coast and none on the East Coast. To expand this industry requires that we optimise the harvest potential of the full 3 700 km of our coastline, which means creating new fishing ports on the East Coast.
We will furthermore work hard in developing aquaculture, which will further assist communities in job creation and food security.
Forestry is an industry that needs greater alignment within government. As things stand, various aspects of forestry management fall under five departments, which include the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Department of Trade and Industry. These departments will have to work on alignment in this regard. The Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is inviting all these Ministries to work on this industry.
Forestry is currently worth US$4,2 billion, and it is highly monopolised. There are many irregularities in the industry and many of the big plantations are subject to land claims. The Department of Rural Development has committed itself to redressing this.
The country has been afforded a momentous opportunity by the council of the Food and Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations, Fao, to host the 14th World Forestry Congress. This congress is being arranged in collaboration with Fao and will bring together about 10 000 participants representing forestry and related disciplines in order to share lessons, experiences and best practices, as well as to explore policy and practical solutions. The congress will take place from 7 to 11 September 2015 in Durban, at the Inkosi Albert Luthuli International Convention Centre. [Applause.]
Now, more than ever before, we have focused our energies on taking matters of rural safety forward in fulfilling our goal of becoming the solution to the challenges in our space. As this is the case, the Minister has led several discussions with farming communities and further engagements will take place with organisations such as AfriForum.
On this note, we urge politicians in this House to stop divisive propaganda by talking on behalf of communities they do not truly represent and instigating racial tensions where there are none. We have direct contact with farming communities. We do not need you as a liaising partner. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
We know very well that those killed on farms are farmers, black and white, and they also include farm workers, who are dying and suffering there. In this regard we are working together with the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster and, in particular, the SA Police Service, to effectively implement the National Rural Safety Strategy. We therefore call on all farming communities to work towards a peaceful solution without racial tension.
In closing I would like to echo the words of the President and call on all South Africans to use the prescripts of the Freedom Charter to contribute to improving the lives of South Africans; to get back to the basic human principle of serving others; and to create a “South Africa (which) belongs to all who live in it” and where “the land (is) shared among those who work it”.
That includes the leader of the DA in this House. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] I don’t know. I was ... [Interjections.] You know, hon ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Minister, address me.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Steenhuisen, I hope one day you will be brave enough to stand up here and tell this House how you left the eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality. [Applause.] I hope so. If you have a problem, I can do it on your behalf as I’m standing here. [Interjections.] [Applause.] But, it will be ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: It will be more honourable if you stand up here and tell this House what happened to the wife of your colleague, who was working as your secretary, which put you out of the eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality and put you here. I hope you will be more honourable and stand up and tell this House. [Applause.] Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order, members! Order! [Interjections.] Order! [Interjections.] Order, members! [Interjections.] Members, you are delaying the business of this House. Order!
Mr B M BHANGA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr B M BHANGA: Chairperson, I think I should start from where it ended – in 2005, 10 years back, President Jacob Zuma was removed from office. That was 10 years back. Now, 10 years later, we have seen the reasons and the rational for why he was removed from office in this House. It was because, and we knew it then, President Zuma would drive this country into the gutter. He would destroy our economy. He would present wrong policies. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It was 10 years back when we thought about President Zuma. We thought that President Zuma would present policies that would discriminate against our people.
I want to warn the hon Deputy President ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Bhanga, I do not want to interrupt your speech, but I do want to interrupt the finger, please. [Interjections.] Proceed. [Interjections.] Proceed.
Mr B M BHANGA: Deputy President, I want to warn you in regard to the story of Joice Mujuru of Zimbabwe. What they did to Joice Mujuru, and what they did to the EFF, they will do to you in two years’ time.
Chairperson, in 1994 the ANC promised to address and remedy the injustice of land removals and dispossession. More than 20 years later, we are still waiting for the ANC promises to be made good. The ANC government’s land reform programme has been an abject failure. It has come nowhere close to reaching its target of transferring 30% of the land to the previously disadvantaged communities by 2015. And President Zuma is using every excuse in the book to explain this shortcoming.
There is an unacceptably high failure rate in agricultural activities on land transferred through the Land Reform Programme. Minister Gugile Nkwinti himself has put the failure rate at between 73% and 90%. This is the true state of the nation in regard to the Land Reform Programme.
The ANC government’s populist proposal to cap land ownership effectively caps investment and job creation.
The agricultural sector is heavily indebted and is dependent on the provision of financial loans for its survival and growth. Destroy the value of land on which debt is based and it will destroy the provision of finance. The emerging farmer will suffer as a result of this.
There will also be a negative impact on share equity schemes. The 90 share equity schemes in the Western Cape have an 80% success rate, the highest of Land Reform models in the country. If you restrict these agricultural ventures from expanding, you destroy the crown jewel of Land Reform.
The ANC government has left emerging farmers to fend for themselves – without proper title to the land, capital investment, skills or access to markets. We need to support emerging farmers to enable them to run successful businesses.
Official figures from 2013 show that on an estimated 92% of successful land claims opted for inyuku [cash] rather than having their land restored to them. That is President Zuma’s good land reform! [Interjections.]
We believe our land reform strategy must be informed not only by the need to achieve quantitative land targets, but by how it meets the needs of ordinary South Africans.
One of DA’s greatest concerns is the inconsistency between the ANC rhetoric in its statements on land and the practical proposals in the National Development Plan. The NDP land reform model, while short on technical details, provides the best overarching framework for land reform. Yet our President did not mention the NDP once when he was discussing his proposals on land reform. President Zuma, you have abandoned your own policy.
Approximately 21 million South Africans live on more than 70 million ha of communal land, including you, President Zuma. This is around 17% of the area of the country’s total farmland, yet their land rights remain fundamentally insecure, including those to Nkandla, President Zuma.
The DA agrees with the NDP, that insufficient tenure for black farmers in communal areas is the first major risk to the objective of building integrated inclusive rural communities. Your starting point should be to provide the working people with land in communal areas and former Bantustans with title deeds. Mr President, you also deserve a title deed. [Applause.]
The ANC government’s disastrous performance in this area represents a lost opportunity to empower millions of South Africans, and has ensured their continued expulsion from economic participation in the land of their forefathers, including you, President Zuma.
The DA believes that four substantial changes are needed in government’s land reform approach in order to secure its success. Firstly, farm workers must become farm owners through the NDP. Secondly, communal land must be released immediately for reform purposes and citizens must receive legal title deeds to the land on which they live and farm.
Wherever possible, state-owned land must be released for reform purposes. [Time expired.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU
Mr B M BHANGA
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Thank you very much, Chairperson of the NCOP. With your permission, Commander-in-Chief, allow me to not respond to iimbongi [the praise singers] who came here to speak and sing praises. However, we will engage with the relatively informed perspectives of the hon Ebrahim Patel in detail, because he tried to give a context to what happened.
We really cannot respond to iimbongi [praise singers] like the hon Majodina, Mthethwa and, surprisingly, Gordhan, and justify what they said here. We also obviously cannot attach much significance to what hon Masina and hon Mahambelahla said, because they understand only half of the things that they said here. [Laughter.] It is worse with Masina. He was struggling to even read the things that he had written for him. That is why we are saying, Chairperson, ... [Inaudible.]
Ms T MAHAMBEHLALA: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I am hon Mahambehlala and not Mahambelahla. [Laughter.] It is an insult to me – I am honourable. He must rectify that, hon Shivambu Louis Vuitton. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Shivambu, it is Mahambehlala.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Oh yes. I made a mistake, Chair. So, it is Mahambehlala.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes. Proceed.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: This morning there was a meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources, and it received the legal opinion that the President had been given with regard to the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, MPRDA.
You will remember that during the course of last year the Minister of Trade and Industry kept on saying that the instrument for the purpose local beneficiation and industrialisation of minerals would be the MPRDA, which still had to be signed. Now the President did not sign that Act. He brought it back to Parliament to specifically deal with an aspect which was going to lead to local beneficiation and industrialisation.
What was that aspect? The aspect was to be found in section 26 of the Act, which provided that you should have restrictions on the amount of minerals that could be exported out of South Africa. However, because big capital, the Chamber of Mines, said no, the President acted like an executive managing the common affairs of the bourgeoisie and brought back the Act, saying that we could not take it forward.
That is what we are dealing with – where capital instructs a President to defy what has been a commonly agreed perspective, and the laws and legalities in this regard are not even about the Constitution of this country. They are about the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade signed by Chris Liebenberg on 6 April 1995. This was part of an elite pact to the effect that they had to open their markets, be neoliberal and have a free market. That is what the elite pact provided when we moved from 1994 to what we have now.
I do not know what it is. It cannot be a legal basis to say that the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade says that you cannot limit the amount of minerals that are exported out of South Africa. We have to deal with that because capital has a major representative, and the Commander-in-Chief said yesterday that that World Trade Organisation was the godfather of neoliberalism, correctly so.
We are being directed by the WTO and General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade processes in regard to what laws we must pass in this Parliament, to the extent that we will undermine local beneficiation and industrialisation of minerals through a legislative framework which the Minister always waved through when we were asking him to take strategic control of our mineral resources, and to take ownership of those mineral resources.
What is difficult about that? You do not have to nationalise all of them, hon Minister Ramatlhodi. Take strategic ownership of the platinum and beneficiate locally and industrialise. There is nothing difficult about that. It is a basically logical matter that you have to look into going forward.
Hon Ebrahim Patel waxed lyrical about the employment situation in South Africa today. I thought that because this is the year of the Freedom Charter, he was going to start by quoting the Freedom Charter on work. The Freedom Charter provides on work:
There shall be a forty-hour working-week, a national minimum wage, paid annual leave, and sick leave for all workers, and maternity leave on full pay for all working mothers;
What are the realities of the current 15 million employed people in South Africa? Chairperson, 80% of those people work more than 40 hours per week. That is the reality. Moreover, 50% are not employed in permanent positions. What are the realities of the working class in South Africa today? They are that 50% are paid less than R2,800. What is that? Then we must celebrate that! We must come here and say that we have 15 million employed people in South Africa!
Let us go further. Chairperson, 35% of workers are in short-term jobs that are not sustainable, and 33% do not have a retirement fund. That is what we are dealing with, and this is the kind of employment that we must celebrate, and say that we should all celebrate!
We have a few industries in Ngqura, which employ very few people. We must, all of us, say that we are happy that there is industry developing and everything is all right! Yet we are not in control of our own economy.
Let us be thematic and deal with one of the major issues that are confronting society today. The President did not speak about it, and obviously we understand this. There is the phenomenon of illicit financial flows which characterise the whole African continent and which involve base erosion, transfer pricing, etc. The hon Deputy Minister of Finance has a better understanding sometimes. [Laughter.]
The cost of that in the past 10 years, hon President, has been US$ 122 billion. If they can write that in South African rands you will obviously not be able to read that number. [Laughter.] It is trillions of rands that are lost through illicit financial flows. We are going to make a formal written submission on illicit financial flows. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms N N MAFU
Mr N F SHIVAMBU
Ms N N MAFU: Hon Chairperson of the NCOP; Your Excellency the President, hon Jacob Zuma; Your Excellency the Deputy President, hon Cyril Ramaphosa; the hon Minister of Human Settlements, Ms Lindiwe Sisulu; hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers; hon members; ladies and gentlemen; and honoured guests, through all the complex tapestry of defence forms and methods of struggle, armed and unarmed, legal and illegal, underground and open, and through the political, economic and ideological battlefronts, the idea and inspiration of the Freedom Charter ran like a golden thread, unifying the diverse forces that together make up our liberation movement. It is the bedrock for social and economic redress:
The time comes for every radical movement when to talk of “freedom” is not enough. One has to paint a picture of it, give it substance, fill in the details.
These words were spoken by Prof Z K Matthews in 1953 when he was addressing the Cape ANC. This was a call for a national convention to draw up the Freedom Charter, which led to the Congress of the People on 26 June 1955 – the real Congress of the People, not the poppycock. [Interjections.] I quote again:
Any form of construction, however, needs both the architect and the bricklayer. It needs both the act of conception and that of building, the act of designing and that of putting one brick upon the other. If the Congress of the People in 1955 marked the maturity of conception of the design of our future society, April 27th 1994 called upon all of us to hone our skills in the act of bricklaying.
This was said by former President Thabo Mbeki in 1995.
As per the Freedom Charter, anarchy is not the interpretation of “The people shall govern!”. We see our people being encouraged to invade land illegally by parties that thrive on anarchy. This practice hinders the proper planning of our settlements. Our municipalities are rendered powerless when land is invaded. It interferes with their planning. We commend the work that is being done by the Housing Development Agency in assisting the municipalities and provinces in acquiring land.
It is common knowledge that the ANC is the party to which 62% of the electorate entrusted their future, and it is ruling. [Applause.] No amount of chaotic behaviour will change this fact. We are not cogoverning with anyone. We are a government! [Interjections.] [Applause.] A hand, however big, cannot cover the sky.
Hon President, during the state of the nation address in 2014 you said distressed mining communities are to be revitalised; women’s empowerment and development are a priority; and youth empowerment is important.
The Department of Human Settlements, which is responsible for the Inter-Ministerial Committee on the Revitalisation of Distressed Mining Communities, has met with the Chamber of Mines, the banking sector and the provinces to draw up a plan to deal with these cities.
The Mining Charter recognises that the human dignity and privacy of mine workers are hallmarks of enhancing and expediting transformation in the mining industry in regard to their living conditions.
You have said, hon President, that R2,1 billion has been ring-fenced to upgrade these mining towns. You have also said there is R290 million for the upgrading of 82 informal settlements in the mining towns. This is at various stages of implementation. However, we also want to say that 233 informal settlements in the country are being assessed to see how they can be helped.
We appreciate the collaboration between the Department of Human Settlements and the Chamber of Mines to upgrade hostels, as this is a very degrading way of life for our people. Hostels must be totally eradicated. We did not create them; they were created by those who know. Marapong Hostel in Lephalale is a case in point.
Mr President, when you addressed the nation on 12 February, you said 15,3 million people were employed in South Africa. We are pleased to note that the department is contributing to this by implementing, amongst others, the Youth Brigade programme.
The Estate Agency Affairs Board, EAAB, has pledged 10 000 opportunities in a youth entrepreneur empowerment programme. We know that 55% of all properties sold in 2014 were bought by black people. Therefore, black people have to work in this sector.
The National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, is employing all the young people who have completed their training in bricklaying, plastering and plumbing. The department is on track to deliver 1,4 million housing opportunities, as promised, in this term of office.
IsiXhosa:
Siyaqhuba, Mongameli.
English:
The commitment to build 5 000 houses for military veterans will go a long way towards improving the lives of those who fought for our freedom.
The delivery of 50 000 subsidised and affordable houses is welcomed, particularly in regard to the issue of the gap market.
We commend the department for ensuring that 30% of the budget is for women’s empowerment in construction.
The elimination of the backlog in title deeds is a priority. We hail the partnership between the Estate Agency Affairs Board and the Black Conveyancers Association in this regard.
The National Development Plan asserts that the reshaping of South Africa’s cities, towns and rural settlements is a complex long-term project, requiring major reform and political will. We are therefore encouraged to note that the final Master Spatial Plan will be tabled before Cabinet.
As we list these achievements, we sadly cannot say the same thing about the Western Cape province. Is it because these programmes are meant to improve only the lives of the poor? The Western Cape is a broken province led by a broken Premier. [Interjections.] What she does best is toyi-toyi, toyi-toyi, toyi-toyi like a monkey, making promises to our people. [Interjections.] Their opposition in this country is just a sad joke. What do you do to jokes? You laugh at them, Comrade President. [Interjections.] You laugh!
Let me unpack for you what a joke the DA is. The so-called DA needs to explain why they handed numerous tenders worth R400 million to Filcon, despite eight applications pending in court for the company’s liquidation. [Interjections.] [Applause.] These applications were filed at least three years prior to Filcon’s receiving these tenders. [Interjections.] Can you explain that?
As the saga of missing public funds continues to unfold, the plight of our indigent people who have been living in containers in Manenberg for more than a year is a further shocking indictment of you, the DA. [Interjections.]
Despite all these things, we want to tell you that if you Google ...
Mr I M OLLIS: Chairperson, would you please ask the member at the podium whether she would take a question about the containers in Alexandra? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mafu, will you take a question?
Ms N N MAFU: When I have finished. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Mr I M OLLIS: That is what they all say!
Ms N N MAFU: As you do a Google search, you will find a man called Saul Loggenberg. This man is the Filcon Chairman. This is the man who was liquidated in Britain and this is the man who is leading Filcon today - the same Filcon that has been given tenders by the DA! [Interjections.] [Applause.] The DA needs to explain why Filcon benefited from public funds. We want to know. Is it because you benefited yourselves? [Interjections.]
Here is another piece of the puzzle, hon members. The MEC for Education in the Western Cape, Debbie Schäfer, responded to a question from ANC MPL Cameron Dugmore about a certain staff member called Lesline McGlenatendolf. This woman once worked for Filcon. Today she is the Director: Infrastructure Planning and Management at the Department of Education in the Western Cape. [Interjections.] Can we know if there is anything that is between the two?
Hon Maimane, come clean and answer the question. It’s very simple to the ANC. Can you please pay back the money? [Interjections.] Who is dishonourable now, hon Maimane? Pay back the public funds!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, speak through me. [Interjections.]
Ms N N MAFU: The ANC appeals to Adv Thuli Madonsela, the Public Protector, ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order: In terms of section 14F of the Joint Rules, ... [Interjections.] ... I think it’s very important that the hon member confines herself to the state of the nation address. [Interjections.] This isn’t ... [Interjections.] This ... [Interjections.] This ... [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, members! Order, members! [Interjections.] Don’t drown the hon member out! I’m listening, sir.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: This isn’t the state of the province address! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] That’s on Friday. She can go there then and talk about the province. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was actually not a point of order in the sense that the state of the nation debate enables members to discuss everything under the sun, as long as it affects us. [Applause.] Please continue, hon member.
Ms N N MAFU: Thank you, hon Chairperson.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson. [Interjections.] Chairperson.
Ms N N MAFU: The ANC appeals to Adv Thuli Madonsela of the ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Waters? Hon Mafu, please hold your horses. Hon Waters.
Mr M WATERS: May I speak?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [Inaudible.]
Mr M WATERS: Thank you. [Interjections.] Chairperson, the hon speaker referred to the hon Maimane by name, saying he must pay back the money. This implies that as an individual he stole money. [Interjections.] Unlike the President, who’s been found guilty ... [Interjections.] ... of stealing money and who hasn’t paid a cent back, the hon Maimane has not been found in a court of law to have stolen any money. [Interjections.] Can she please retract that? Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon ... [Interjections.]
Ms N N MAFU: Hon ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please. Please allow me to respond. Hon Mafu, did you say, directly or indirectly, that the hon Maimane had stolen money? [Interjections.]
Ms N N MAFU: No, hon Chair. All I said was that the hon Maimane, as the leader of the DA, must please pay back the money – the party. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please continue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES –JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the hon Waters is misleading the House. He said that the President was found guilty. [Interjections.] The President has not been found guilty of anything. [Interjections.] Can you please ask him to correct it?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Waters? [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Chair, ... [Interjections.] ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order!
Mr M WATERS: ... the Public Protector found the President guilty ... [Interjections.] ... and the Constitutional Court, in ruling with regard to our SMS, said the President did steal money! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES –JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Waters ... [Interjections.] Hon Waters ... [Interjections.] Hon members, I would like to come back to this matter. This is because ...
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES –JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... - let me finish, hon Jeffery - a ruling on the SMSes is dealing with the matter from a completely different angle. The report of the Public Protector says something else, and that is why I am asking you to please give me a chance to come back to the House with a ruling on this matter.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, can the hon Mafu reference her remarks and not plagiarise? Where does “Pay back the money” come from? [Laughter.] She must not plagiarise, because ... [Laughter.] ... we are the ones being creative here. We are setting trends. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ndlozi, you have made your point! Hon Mafu, please continue. [Interjections.]
Ms N N MAFU: Thank you, Chair. The ANC appeals to Adv Thuli Madonsela, the Public Protector, to take just a few hours out of her busy Nkandla schedule to finalise their forensic investigation into Filcon, given that there is more than R400 million involved, which is almost double what is involved in the Nkandla matter. [Interjections.]
Struggle is a permanent matter, and we really want to make sure that we are not drawn to those who don’t have struggle credentials. They are the people who want us to be part of a circus and entertain gimmicks, those who want to drag us into the mud, just like pigs. We are the ANC in government.
IsiXhosa:
Siyaqhuba! Sakh’ isizwe. Ndiyabonga, Mongameli.
Dr P W A MULDER
Ms N N MAFU
Dr P W A MULDER: Chairperson, what does a governing party do when voters start turning against it? They start scapegoat politicking. What are scapegoat politics?
In Germany, Hitler blamed the Jews for German poverty. Scapegoat politics.
When Mugabe lost a referendum in 2000, he called the naysayers sell-out Zimbabweans and blamed white farmers. We know what happened to the white farmers. Scapegoat politics.
In Rwanda, Hutu leaders called the Tutsi cockroaches and blamed them for the country’s problems. When the problems remained, ordinary citizens decided to get rid of the cockroaches. Up to 1 million Tutsis were murdered in 10 days. The same happened in Germany where millions of Jews were murdered.
In South Africa load shedding upsets everybody. The hon President doesn’t blame Eskom’s lack of planning; he blames apartheid and the previous white government. Scapegoat politics. Chairperson, when the National Party government handed over power to the ANC in 1994, Eskom had a generation capability of 37 GW. After 20 years of ANC government, Eskom has a mere 28 GW at the moment. [Interjections.]
Where do South Africa’s problems come from? The hon President says a man called Jan van Riebeeck arrived here, and that was the start of the trouble in this country. [Interjections.] I can prove that the President is wrong. But what did he say in plain language? He said that when white people arrived here, the trouble started. [Interjections.]
What is the understanding of ordinary ANC supporters then? They understand that if one gets rid of the white man, all problems are solved. Get rid of the cockroaches, and then the problems go away. [Interjections.] When I say this plays a role in ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is a point of order, hon Mulder. You have the floor, hon Mthembu.
Mr J M MTHEMBU: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to know if the hon member is prepared to take a question on history.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mulder?
Dr P W A MULDER: Hon Chairperson, I wish I had more time, because I would like to take the question. Let me rather try and finish what I want to say and then I’ll take the question.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It’s a no, hon Mthembu.
Dr P W A MULDER: When I say this plays a role in many farm murders, it results in hysterical ANC reaction.
The same scapegoat politics exist in relation to land. Foreigners are buying all the land and that is why prices are so high – so get rid of the foreigners. However, figures show that foreigners own about 2% of the land, but their investment, their job creation, and their companies’ contributions to tax amount to much more than that.
The same goes for Somalians. TV scenes of shops being looted in Soweto are shocking. Of course it was xenophobia – I read the slogans. However, the President didn’t say a word about it on Thursday. However, he did say foreigners may not own land. Ordinary Soweto residents hear the President saying that they were right in getting rid of foreigners in advance.
Afrikaans:
Meneer, wat lanbougrond betref is u voorstelle onrealisties en onuitvoerbaar. Ek het dit meer as een keer in Kabinetlekgotlas gesê.
Georganiseerde landbou het hard gewerk aan praktiese voorstelle vir hulle gesprekke met die regering in Maart. Voor daardie gesprekke egter plaasvind, kondig u hierdie voorstelle af, en verongeluk u daardie gesprekke. Hierdie voorstelle gaan nie die EFF tevrede stel nie, gaan landbou vernietig en voedselsekerheid in gedrang bring.
Meneer, u is nie net die leier van die ANC; u is ook staatshoof.
English:
A head of state acts in the interests of all South Africans, not just of the ANC.
According to most ANC speeches in Parliament, a person is a good South African and African only if he or she joins the ANC. If he or she does not, and dares to criticise, then he or she is an enemy of the people, opposed to transformation, and, most probably, a racist. Scapegoat politics.
I, and the majority of Afrikaners and English-speaking white people and all other minorities who call South Africa our only home, will not allow someone else to decide whether we are African and whether we are patriotic.
Hon President, stop scapegoat politics. You are setting a wrong example. It is exactly the opposite of what President Mandela did. [Interjections.] You are playing with fire in a country that needs little to set it alight. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, does the ANC really believe in the Constitution? When the ANC was under pressure in the Assembly on Thursday, many South Africans got a fright when they saw an autocratic ANC which spared nothing to remain in power. Is this the real ANC? Will they hand over power peacefully when they lose an election? Does the ANC really believe in the Constitution’s liberal democratic principles? I say no. They are hiding the true nature of the ANC behind a curtain of human rights and democratic words. [Interjections.]
Prof K A Busia of Ghana wrote:
A democracy in the last analysis depends on the character of individual men and women ... freedoms may be provided in constitutions; and Bills of Right may be passed; they will make arbitrary acts easier to resist publicly, but they will not by themselves secure democracy. There are other rules which are unwritten, such as honesty, integrity, restraint and respect for democratic procedures.
Sir, you are currently the problem. Please leave scapegoat politics alone, respect democratic values, and stop attacking and driving me as an Afrikaner, and other groups, away. You will not get rid of us, and you will also not solve the problems of this country without us. There are many good people in all the various communities out there. Let us acknowledge this and take hands to make a success of South Africa, all together.
This is going in the wrong direction, to the benefit of one. Thank you.
Mr E R MAKUE
Dr P W A MULDER
Mr E R MAKUE: Hon Chairperson, President Zuma, Deputy President Ramaphosa, hon members in this Joint Sitting, and ladies and gentlemen who honour us with your presence and observing these proceedings, this government and the ANC have historic responsibilities. We have been democratically elected and are here to create a better life for all the people of South Africa, including the Afrikaners. Our role is not to moan, to point fingers and to blame, but to respond to the needs of our people.
The ANC brought liberation, and we recognise the importance of nurturing these freedoms.
Last week Statistics SA released a report for the last quarter of 2014, indicating that 15,3 million people are employed in South Africa. In this last quarter alone jobs grew by 230 000. Our people come first.
Furthermore, this government, ruled by the ANC, has developed a nine-point plan to ignite growth and create jobs – this is what our President said.
The Gauteng provincial government – which I have the honour to represent in this Parliament – has adopted a 10-pillar programme of radical transformation, modernisation and re-industrialisation over the next five to 15 years. [Applause.]
These pillars are: radical economic transformation; decisive spatial transformation; accelerated social transformation; transformation of the state and governance; modernisation of the public service; modernisation of the economy; modernisation of human settlements and urban development; modernisation of public transport infrastructure; re-industrialisation of Gauteng province; and taking the lead in Africa’s new industrial revolution.
This programme of the Gauteng government is an expression of how we in the ANC exercise collective leadership and co-operate with the national Parliament. You can say what you want about our President, but he is our President and he is a part of this collective leadership. [Applause.]
Our President shared with us a simple nine-point plan to ignite growth and create jobs. This is in line with the ANC Manifesto. The Manifesto promises to:
institutionalise long-term planning, integration and coordination capacity within the state to drive consolidated industrialisation and infrastructure development programmes for inclusive growth and job creation.
This approach is nothing new to the ANC. Already in 1955, when we adopted the Freedom Charter, we stated unequivocally, hon Mulder, that “South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white”.
This charter of freedom that we celebrate this year also states that “there shall be work and security”. The ANC has always been committed, and remains so, to creating jobs for all, not merely for a particular racial group, like some of the political parties in this House.
Under the competent leadership of the ANC we have developed and adopted a great Constitution. We have also established institutions to enhance our democratic gains. Furthermore, the National Development Plan is a long-term vision for our country, and it lays the foundation for all government programmes.
The National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, creates opportunities for organised labour, the private sector, business and government, joined by representatives of civil society, to deliberate and agree on matters of common interest. Recent Nedlac deliberations were around a national minimum wage.
Healthy labour and economic relations are vital to our development agenda. The effectiveness of Nedlac remains its ability in regard to decision-making. Progressive employer bodies value the space offered by Nedlac, as it contributes to stability in the economy.
Nedlac endeavours to address the challenges of mandates, collective bargaining councils and power relations.
Mindful of the negative effects that unprotected strikes have on economic growth, the ANC welcomes the intervention of trade union federations like the Federation of Unions of South Africa, Fedusa, the Confederation of South African Workers’ Unions, Consawu, the National Council of Trade Unions, Nactu, and the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, in bargaining councils.
Members of Nedlac know very well how economic growth creates jobs. Yes, it creates work, and Nedlac strives to promote a stable labour environment.
Therefore, a well-structured plan for growing our economy is a priority of the ANC. President Zuma stated in the 2015 state of the nation address that the Operation Phakisa ocean economy initiative would be a game changer. He further mentioned our Automotive Investment Scheme, expansion in the leather and footwear sector, the Manufacturing Competitiveness Enhancement Programme, and the development of black industrialists.
Our premier, in his 2014 state of the province address, announced that the Gauteng government is determined to revitalise and mainstream the township economy by supporting the development of township enterprises, co-operatives, and small, medium and micro enterprises which produce goods and services that meet the needs of our township residents. Premier Makhura said that the days when townships were simply dormitories were over.
There are none so blind as those that do not want to see. It is regrettable that our country is saddled with an opposition that refuses to see how the reactionary approaches they promote are inhibiting our national growth and development. [Applause.]
The gross exploitation of workers is unacceptable in this democracy for which so many people sacrificed under the courageous leadership of the ANC. Our only ally, Cosatu, and its affiliated unions and other progressive trade unions, are strategic partners and important activists for peace in labour relations and in the workplace.
Amendments made to the Labour Relations Act in the last quarter of 2014 grant more powers to the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, CCMA. Workers can no longer be exploited by being temporarily employed for more than three months. [Applause.] Different types of employment contracts have been considered in the Labour Relations Act amendments. Decent work and a living wage are what we support. The ANC will not tolerate the abuse of unsuspecting workseekers.
The ANC developed a document on strategies and tactics – not yesterday, not 20 years ago, but much longer ago. We note that protest politics worked during the undemocratic and despotic times of apartheid. We used it. Those relying on throwing their toys out of the cot now are political babies. The creation of anarchy is unacceptable when our people are hungry.
This government and the ANC are tasked with creating a better life for all. Subjecting this House and the state of the nation address to criticism without offering and/or pursuing solutions, demonstrates political bankruptcy and opportunism. [Applause.] The integrated approach of the ANC continues to stand the test of time.
Afrikaans:
Partye moet besluit of hulle deel is van hierdie regering en moet ophou om Parlement te misbruik. Hulle misbruik Parlement as ‘n forum om te kla, instede van selfs die basiese verwagtinge van mense wat vir hulle gestem het, te adresseer.
English:
The ANC is committed to utilising Parliament and our democratic state to deal with the challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality.
Some members and parties are longing for the fleshpots of Egypt, where inequality, racial discrimination and selective privileges reigned. Those days are gone. [Applause.]
Opposition parties recognise the importance of the ANC, its leaders and this ANC-ruled government. For every problem they fabricate, they blame the ANC. Soon they will blame the ANC for the heat outside! But we will rise even to that challenge. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms D KOHLER
Mr E R MAKUE
Ms D KOHLER: Hon Deputy Speaker, while the SAPS version of Purple Rain was blasting DA supporters on pavements outside Parliament last week, where we saw the brutalising and arrest of five DA colleagues, one an MP, here in Parliament preparations were ongoing for Scenario 1.
Behind the pomp and ceremony, I am told, at each of four doors there were three units comprising five Public Order Policing members; two members of Parliament’s Counter Assault Teams, Cats; and two parliamentary staff. A total of 108 men in white waited for the signal downstairs, while at least another 12 were poised to enter the public gallery.
No life or property was in danger, but the word was given and the jackboot attack began. Their orders came from the Speaker via the Cats unit. No single extraction scenarios were ever rehearsed; only the removal of entire political parties.
We saw what happened. Despite the state security signal blocker, the world saw what happened, and all potential foreign investors saw what happened.
We were seconds away from Scenario 2 – the removal of the entire Official Opposition. In enthusiastic expectation of that event, ... [Interjections.] ... over 60 of those white shirts were held back outside the four doors of this Chamber.
The world watched the President chuckle in delight as the EFF were forcibly removed, and I have no doubt he would have shed tears of mirth had our leader Helen Zille been manhandled out, and perhaps as I was thrown on the floor and kicked in the face, breaking my jaw and nose, as happened to one hon EFF member. [Interjections.]
The Speaker has seemingly taken over the role of the Minister of Police, ordering SAPS members to enter the Chamber, protect the executive, and deal with those who disagree with the shabby, shoddy manner in which our democracy is being treated by the Zuma regime.
She has taken over from a Minister of Police who is in any case totally compromised, having last month been found guilty of committing not one but two unlawful acts, in suspending the head of the Hawks and in putting in his personal choice of acting head. He knew the Constitutional Court had ruled on 27 November that he might not do this, but he did it anyway. Then he realised he was going to lose in court, so he asked the Portfolio Committee on Police to do the job for him!
The Hawks are the unit the ANC created as a sop to the Constitution, which calls for an independent corruption-fighting unit – one which ANC members of the Portfolio Committee on Police shamefully rendered as toothless as a chicken. The Hawks were left to peck feebly at organised crime, serious commercial crime and serious corruption.
Members of civil society, who saw that they were toothless, fought for and won increased independence for the Hawks by pulling the legislation into line with the Constitution. For the ANC this has been like a red rag to a bull.
Independent thought and action are being hunted down and driven out as we speak. That is why the ANC stepped on and crushed the globally admired Scorpions, and why they today seek to pluck any feather the Hawks ever dare to grow.
So, when the head of the Hawks had the unmitigated gall to call for the Nkandla files, of course he had to go! He was out two days before Christmas, with death threats made to his family. It was taken to court and the order was that he must be reinstated immediately.
Bizarrely, the Minister of Police is pressuring him to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, illegally pushing retirement contracts under his nose in order to clear the way for a more pliant ANC cadre. The Minister doesn’t do the job he’s got; yet he’s taking over the job of the civilian turned general, the National Police Commissioner – the same one who was protected in the Portfolio Committee on Police this morning, shielded from questions by crushed ANC members. I have never been ashamed to be on that committee before, but I am today. [Interjections.]
This is this President’s ANC: Look askance at the President and you’re out. Look askance at any of his rich supporters, such as the Guptas, and you’re out. Look at Nkandla with anything but moon-eyed admiration and you’re out. From the SA Revenue Service we heard, “Mr President, pay us the taxes,” and out they went.
Meanwhile, just 47% of citizens trust the SAPS today, as they brutalise civilians and bungle thousands of criminal cases.
Then there is the Special Investigating Unit. Where are the investigations into the hon Bheki Cele and what he did in never calling for tenders when he was the National Police Commissioner? [Interjections.] Who made inordinate amounts of money during his two disastrous National Police Days? Then there is the criminal charge the DA laid against him after the release of the Public Protector’s report that saw him fired. It was swept under the carpet, ... [Interjections.] ... because he is from Nkandlaland. Then the recently appointed head of the unit spoke the dreaded words, “Mr President, pay for Nkandla,” and he, too, found himself walking off into the sunset.
Then there is our National Prosecuting Authority. It has been increasingly politicised and now we have a head who seems far too determined to do the right thing without fear or favour, so he is being subjected to the same sort of witch-hunt that Dramat and others are.
It was the NPA that was credited, initially under Mokotedi Mpshe, with work that single-handedly led to the dropping of 783 charges of corruption levelled against President Zuma, for undue political reasons as the recent release of the “spy tapes” reveals. The reasons to drop the charges were baseless and irrational, and should be set aside.
Finally, let us look at the Anticorruption Task Team – the highest profile corruption-fighting body we have, chaired by the head of the Hawks, while the deputy is the head of the Sars anticorruption unit – they are both gone!
During his term of office, we have seen the Scorpions crushed; the NPA trussed; the Hawks plucked; Sars purged; and the ACTT chained to the floor. Mr President, powerless anticorruption units are no anticorruption units at all, but of course you have 783 good reasons for that, don’t you? [Applause.]
Ms D Z RANTHO
Ms D KOHLER
Ms D Z RANTHO: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon President, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, and hon members, ...
IsiXhosa:
Mongameli, izolo ubuqinisekisiwe ukuba sihleli kanye emva kwakho. Nanamhlanje sisatsho sisathi sisemva kwakho.
English:
Today the eyes of the nation are on our Parliament. People are watching and listening with hope ...
IsiXhosa:
... apho uncedo lwabo luya kuvela khona.
English:
When the President delivered his state of the nation address, he said, “The year 2015 is the Year of the Freedom Charter and Unity in Action to Advance Economic Freedom.” This is exactly what South Africans were waiting to hear. They have seen the developments around the country and have heard the President’s voice on what has been achieved by the ANC government.
IsiXhosa:
Uchane ucwethe, Mongameli.
English:
As the ANC government, we have made strides in uplifting the lives of our people, in order to correct the damage of colonialism, neoliberalism and structured, institutionalised apartheid rule, which cannot be erased in 20 years. Only this government – the ANC government – can do that, because we have done just that.
It is our task as South Africans to own everything that the government has built and constructed, as it is the collective wealth of the nation and belongs to us, whether it’s a library, crèche, street or school.
It is also our responsibility as South African citizens to use electricity sparingly. It is our electricity after all.
The Freedom Charter says, “The people shall govern!” This not only refers to voting and standing as candidates, but to what we collectively own as our national wealth and our endowments. This requires us to act with responsibility. Therefore, as a government, we must govern everything, no matter how little, ...
IsiXhosa:
... nombane lo masiwulawule.
English:
Our democracy allows entrepreneurs to trade where they choose. You are not restricted to your area of birth, or subjected to requiring a permit when you have to come to the Western Cape, or paying extra to travel when you come to the Eastern Cape from the area of the former Transkei, as was the case before.
Before, a black person was not allowed to even think of doing mathematics at school, because it was not for them. The fear was that they would know too much and they would know the trading trends of the government, which at that time were a secret.
Today we have youth who are steering ships over our seas to distant countries. Amongst them are young black women. We have young black pilots trained by state-owned enterprises, SOEs. This is development at its best, especially focusing on previously disadvantaged youth.
SA Express has a development programme running for pilots, and it is yielding good results. This is the richness of our country and the type of wealth the ANC government is generating. SA Express has a programme to adopt a school, which is a good initiative that will encourage our youth to develop an interest in aviation. As for the SOEs, they belong to us and to the government.
In recognising the enormous potential of our oceans in contributing to economic growth, creating jobs and reducing poverty, Operation Phakisa is relevant as one of our integrated programmes and a way of working as a government. It was launched by you, President Jacob Zuma, ...
IsiXhosa:
... kuba uyakhathala. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
English:
These actions are critical for the reindustrialisation of our economy and creating jobs, and our SOEs are in the lead. Transnet, for example, will be investing over R300 billion in ports and rail infrastructure. We are moving South Africa forward – for all of us to benefit.
IsiXhosa:
Asiyekanga ukuze oko kwenzeke ecaleni elinye.
English:
In his state of the nation address the President said: “We have developed a plan which involves both short, medium term and long term responses.” Why?
It is because our youth, with their flourishing talents, are being harnessed and developed in the most productive way, so that they can play a leading role in the allocation of resources, and get what is due to them from the wealth of this country. We must continue to invest in them every year, regardless of the negative response we get from the opposition.
IsiXhosa:
Mongameli, lo rhulumente akahlelanga nje. Uzama kangangoko ukuba abantu bethu baphume endlaleni. Sifuna abantu bakwazi ukuzimela, bakwazi nokonga imali yabo. Kungoko sicela amasebe afanelekileyo ukuba afundise abo sebenawo amashishini ukuze bakwazi ukuyiphatha ngendlela efanelekileyo imali yabo. Ubutyebi kaloku abakhiwa ngemini enye, hleze uphulukane nabo ngosuku olulandelayo.
English:
Our SOEs are the codrivers of socioeconomic development and continue to train our youth for potential jobs. The National Development Plan, adopted in 2012, is a visionary blueprint of government, business and the broader society, as collaborative partners working towards achieving socioeconomic growth and development targets by 2030.
We have privatised before and this had dire consequences for the industries supplied by companies that were previously owned by the state. As we speak, the foundries are accessing steel at import parity pricing and there is a similar case with regard to polymers. This has undermined the growth of downstream industries that are more labour-intensive.
These were sectors where there was state ownership. Now the private sector is there, but we don’t see the levels of efficiency that our colleagues are referring to. These companies have been taken to the Competition Commission for their uncompetitive practices. Privatisation is not a solution. The people will only govern through state ownership. The people can’t govern under private ownership.
Eskom is our company as South Africans, and is 100% owned by South Africans. The DA is calling for the unbundling of Eskom and complaining about its monopoly. These people are hypocrites! These people are spokespersons and shop stewards of white monopoly capital. [Interjections.] They should challenge their funders to unbundle their businesses and allow black participation in the value chain of their businesses. [Applause.] South Africans should defend Eskom from these liberal attacks, and should take ownership through ensuring that we use electricity sparingly and continue to be proud of the progress we are making as a society.
The load shedding that we are experiencing is not a crisis, ... [Laughter.] ... but an instrument used to find a balance between the supply and demand of electricity. [Interjections.] Some sections of the media and the prophets of doom in South Africa are hellbent on seeing our country fail, but we as the ANC-led government will continue disappointing them. We are confident that government is in control of the current electricity challenge. [Interjections.]
We are intervening in ICT, because private companies have not invested heavily in the connectivity of rural areas and the broadband price remains high. We are going to eliminate the digital divide. South Africa Connect is in the ... [Time expired.] Mongameli, sime emva kwakho nangoku. [President, we are behind you. We support you.] [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA
Ms D Z RANTHO
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Hon Speaker, hon President and hon Deputy President, the Constitution of our country dictates that it is the supreme law of the land. It also tells us that the security services of our country consist of defence, police and intelligence.
The Constitution goes on to say who is responsible for the command of the security services, and in this case, Mr President, you occupy that position. And since you are the head of the executive, no other arm of our government can take that authority for managing the security services from you.
The consequence of this is that the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act, which purports to give the power to command the security services to the Speaker and the Chairperson of the NCOP, is contrary to the Constitution. It contradicts the Constitution. The Act is therefore, in terms of the Constitution, null and void. It’s vital and urgent, Mr President, that you redirect that this Act be reviewed to correct that.
That is the only way one can see how it came to pass that men and women in strange uniforms, a group not constituted under any law in this country, could walk in here and beat up members of the House.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES –JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I have taken advantage ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Lekota, please take your seat!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES –JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I wanted to ask the hon member if he would take a question: Does he know that that Act came from Parliament and not from the executive?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I will not do so.
I have taken advantage, Mr President, of the opportunity to draft the rest of my arguments in such a way that I can hand them to you, but I will give the document to the desk to deliver to you. [Interjections.]
On the question of Eskom and the severe electricity crisis that South Africa is experiencing presently, it’s not a secret letter; it’s an open letter. Cope urges the President to allow business owners and the residents with PV installations to reverse feed into the grid. There is plenty of excess electricity at the present time that is being generated by citizens in the private sector in order to eliminate the difficulties of our communities to feed into the national grid. This will go a long way toward improving our output.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Lekota, please take your seat!
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, what are you rising on?
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I am rising on a point of order and I need some direction from you. I am not aware of any Rules of Parliament that allow secret documents to be leaked to the President. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please go on hon member. We are not ... [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Chair, I plead with you to keep account of my time please. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I would be very grateful if it were given back to him and he knows exactly what to do with it.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: All right. Go ahead, hon member. That is not a point of order.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Please keep account of my time, sir. [Interjections.]
On the never-ending crisis in education, we would like to appeal that there should be a reopening of the colleges that were closed earlier on, in order to support the ongoing internal training of educators. The country is otherwise creating a huge problem of young people with 30% passes, who will have no future and can only become a problem for the future.
On the rising police brutality, Mr President, you must note that 11 880 criminal cases were opened with the Independent Police Investigative Directorate between 2011 and 2012. It is very urgent that we demilitarise the police, in keeping with the Constitution. In the first place, it was unconstitutional to militarise the police. Therefore, we need the Police Service retrained and brought back into the thinking of the Constitution, that there must be a service and not a force.
On the question of domestic violence and rape, and all of that, we urge that a special integrated investigative support unit be created to work with communities and schools in order to take multilevel action to arrest this widespread problem in our society. The rape of five-year-old kids tarnishes our image and destroys the values of our society.
On the question of bureaucracy, Sir, break down all bureaucratic barriers. There is no virtue in sustaining state-owned enterprises unless they contribute to production of more resources so that we can uplift the conditions of our people. We don’t need Eskom for its own sake. [Interjections.] I will deal with the others later. Thank you, Sir. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Cllr T M MANYONI
Mr M G P LEKOTA
Cllr T M MANYONI: Hon Chairperson, hon Speaker, hon Chairperson of the NCOP, hon President Your Excellency Bab’ uZuma, hon Deputy President Tat’ uRamaphosa, hon Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, distinguished guests, and ladies and gentlemen, let us start from where we are, so that we are then able to understand where we should be going to.
In 1922 a man, and let us borrow from him, wrote a pamphlet called Notes of a publicist. He said:
Let us picture to ourselves a man ascending a very high, steep and (until now) unexplored mountain. Let us assume that he has overcome unprecedented difficulties and dangers and has (reached) a much higher point than any of his predecessors, but still has not reached the summit.
It is dangerous, it is easy to slip, and it is a painful ascent. There are voices from those below, whom one can see through a telescope. They are far from there, in a safe place, watching his dangerous move. These voices:
... ring with malicious joy. They do not conceal it; they chuckle gleefully and shout: “He’ll fall in a minute! Serve him right, the lunatic!”
He does not hear them and, if he did, he would probably be nauseated and nausea, we know, does not help one to keep a clear head and a firm step when you are high on a mountain. The high altitude needs you to keep a clear head and never hear gleeful malicious voices from a far, safe distance.
The ANC will be like that man and suffer no illusions and no despondency. It must keep its head clear and it must say, “Forward ever, backward never.” [Applause.]
On behalf of organised local government in South Africa, the SA Local Government Association, let me take this opportunity, now that I have clearly shown the path we are on and you have heard the noise, Deputy Speaker, to express our sincere appreciation of the privilege of reflecting and elaborating on the local government issues the President touched on in his speech.
Democratic local government was put into effect in 2000. The evolution of the local government system has been both interesting and challenging. We have moved from a plethora of small entities across the country to more developmental and integrated municipalities. The journey has been characterised by new learning.
The outstanding feature of this evolution is the effectiveness of intergovernmental relations in our country. For instance, today organised local government is able to address this august House. [Applause.] It is a celebration that we must take part in, because it basically is an indication of our democratic Constitution in action.
This year marks 15 years of democratic and people-centred local government, and I am sure we can all agree that a firm foundation has been laid. We should reflect this and build on it in the lead-up to the 2016 local government elections.
As cited by both the President and the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we should not forget the significant contribution that local government has made in the expansion of infrastructure and services to households in a basket of social services like free basic water, electricity, solid waste collection, sanitation and sewer connectivity. The contribution is contrary to the often negative narrative sustained against municipalities.
We note with the same concern the bleak global economic growth outlook, and that our ambition of achieving a growth target of 5% by 2019 is at risk. This is because of slow global growth, as well as domestic constraints in energy, skills, transport and others. We need to keep our heads clear.
The President stated that “our economy needs a major push forward” if we are to realise our growth and job creation targets. We agree, and it is in that context that we wish to talk about local economic growth and unlocking the potential of our spaces and places.
Small towns, rural towns and townships are home to about 50% of our population, yet they are the least developed areas, rapidly depopulating, and to a large extent overlooked. Small towns play a key role as points of socioeconomic service provision, welfare distribution, production centres for raw material, primary hubs for manufacturing and industries, and key conduits in the rural-urban continuum.
Consider for instance, Ballito in KwaDukuza Local Municipality, which is part of iLembe District Municipality in KwaZulu-Natal. It used to be a small holiday town, but today it has grown into a suburban paradise which has achieved substantial economic growth. Examples are its King Shaka International Airport and the Dube Trade Port. Over time, what was established as a private township in 1954 has now become an anchor economy to its rural hinterlands, with a large commercial business park, and a full service industry within the commercial park. Isn’t that a good story to tell? [Applause.]
If careful and strategically approached, even simple activities such as street lighting can be catalytic to business expansion and retention. This is one example of what Back to Basics is all about.
This was true in the case of Butterworth in the Eastern Cape. The installation of street lighting in the main road there became an attraction for KFC to set up shop. This, in turn, changed the business operating culture in the area, which had a knock-on effect on the surrounding businesses. I know about the area because I grew up ...
IsiXhosa:
... apho ezilalini kwaSokapase.
English:
With regard to mining towns, while we are focusing on the Special Presidential Package for Distressed Mining Towns, we should not forget those other mining towns that are at risk of becoming ghost towns.
Stilfontein is a case in point. Once a booming mining town, it has slowly deteriorated since 2012, resulting in the closure of a state-of-the-art hospital, with residents now having to travel to Klerksdorp for health care, and business swiftly vacating the area. The situation in this and similar towns can still be revived, but we must act swiftly and coherently, and keep a clear head.
Our point, Mr President, is that if we are to truly stimulate our lagging economic growth, we must see the 278 local economies – the municipalities are the local economies – as the starting point for leveraging productivity, innovation and job creation.
We therefore call on government to rally behind local government, and to use integrated development plans as the central and the only planning instrument to make a real impact on spatial transformation and integrated development in our spaces. In this regard, we must include everyone, including the opposition, because South Africa belongs to all.
The Integrated Urban Development Framework must indeed provide a new deal for our cities and towns, and its implementation must be a key priority. We must urgently equip our cities with the institutional reforms to ensure that investment in the built environment leads to real spatial transformation.
I thank to my two Ministers, the hon Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the hon Minister responsible for the Treasury, for the engagements that we started quite recently. These are to make sure that we concentrate on metros in order to make sure that we really unlock the potential of these key centres for economic activity.
Of course, that kind of development and growth are not possible without sustainable, low-cost energy. So, we are in full agreement that tackling serious energy constraints should be uppermost on our agenda.
For our part, Salga is committed to shortly launching a national campaign to mobilise citizens to pay for municipal services ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What are you rising on, hon member?
Mr J S MALEMA: Is it parliamentary to be addressed by councillors here? [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, Cllr Manyoni! [Interjections.]
Cllr T M MANYONI: Martin Luther King, Jr said:
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
[Laughter.] [Applause.] Nonpayment for any service has a knock-on effect on the service delivery value chain, and must be addressed in building a culture of user payment.
Substantial progress has been made on the front of improving on financial management and audit outcomes of municipalities. Here is a good story! Over 50% of municipalities presently ... [Interjections.] Thanks. Forward ever, backward never! We shall keep our heads clear. [Time expired.][Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I now call on the hon Greyling.
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Cllr T M MANYONI
Mr L W GREYLING: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Hon President, the scenes that we witnessed in this Parliament ...
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I think it is important that we do not diminish any member who is present in the Joint Sitting. These are special delegates of the NCOP and serve in the House by virtue of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are correct, Minister. Proceed, hon member. We agree with the Minister.
Mr L W GREYLING: Hon President, the scenes that we witnessed in this Parliament last week were despicable and have shamed our great nation and this institution that we care for so greatly.
Unfortunately, this has been a long time coming, as I have watched as a member of this House for the last 11 years the gradual erosion of Parliament’s authority and the undermining of the role it plays as the custodian of our hard-fought for democracy. [Interjections.] I have witnessed how debate has been stifled and the hard questions that the public want answers to being conveniently ignored by the executive.
Instead, what we witnessed last week in Parliament was the power of debate being replaced by the power of the state. Parliament is now no longer the institution through which parliamentarians representing the diverse will of the people can come together to find shared solutions to the many crises our country faces. Instead, the ANC has chosen to control this institution and even to attempt to control the message that is passed on to the public, shockingly demonstrated by your attempt to block the cellphone reception of journalists.
All of these actions over a number of years have now brought us to the brink of a constitutional crisis where the executive believes that it can control Parliament rather than the other way round. Unfortunately, I have also seen the ANC agenda of control and coercion ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Speaker, I have been graciously standing up to ask a question of the hon member.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Greyling, will you take a question?
Mr L W GREYLING: I will take a question when the President takes a question. Thank you. [Applause.] So, no.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member.
Mr L W GREYLING: Unfortunately, I have also seen the ANC agenda of control and coercion being displayed in the energy sector, which has in turn brought us to the electricity crisis that we sit with today. The ruling party believes that the best way to ensure the flow of electrons in our electricity sector is by exerting state monopoly control over it.
Eskom enjoys a vertically integrated monopoly accounting for over 95% of electricity generation, owning and operating the entire transmission grid, and distributing final power to over 42% of consumers in the country.
Added to this state control is the Ministry of Energy, which solely gets to determine what energy generation capacity is built, and who ultimately ends up building it.
But such total control brings great responsibility, and it is for that reason that responsibility for this electricity crisis rests solely with the ANC, hon President. This crisis is not merely an inconvenience, as you stated last week, but a dire threat to our economic growth prospects, and will make a mockery of any attempts of ours to deal with our challenge of overcoming poverty, creating jobs and reducing inequality.
The DA believes that instead of the ANC’s philosophy of control and coercion of the electricity sector, the best way to overcome this crisis is through entrenching the twin principles of competition and co-operation.
The power of competition has been shown through the one successful energy programme of the government, namely the Renewable Energy Independent Power Producer Procurement Programme. This programme saw prices drop by as much as 65% over the three bidding windows, and many of the projects were implemented in the space of just over a year and funded solely through the private sector. As the latest Council for Scientific and Industrial Research report has shown, this programme, in fact, saved Eskom R1 billion that it would otherwise have had to spend on diesel generation.
This is the power of private sector competition, hon President and hon Rantho, and it needs to be extended to all areas of our electricity sector, while upscaling this programme.
In order for this to be truly successful, however, the second principle of co-operation also needs to be enshrined. This requires more than just calling on the private sector to help deal with a government-induced electricity crisis. It requires a complete institutional restructuring of the sector so that all actors in our society can have the confidence that their initiatives will be rewarded, and that they have a level playing field to compete on.
The DA believes that we urgently need consensus on an end state vision for this sector, and legislation like the Independent System and Market Operator Bill, which will take the grid away from Eskom, to finally be implemented. It also requires a greater role for large municipalities to use their own balance sheets to secure power purchase agreements with independent power producers. Municipalities also need to be rewarded for taking forward national objectives like energy efficiency.
It is the concern of the DA, however, that the ANC will not abandon its ideology of control and coercion in the energy sector, because it wants to ensure that it can take a slice of these large financial investments. [Interjections.] We saw this in the case of Hitachi, where the ANC made a cool R50 million profit through a company that is directly responsible for the delays in the building of Medupi Power Station. [Applause.]
We can also find evidence of it in the latest agreement signed with Russia in regard to the nuclear build programme, which Russia proudly displays on its website, while our government refuses to show it to us. I never thought Russia would be more transparent than South Africa, but such is the extent of the ANC’s ideology of control and coercion. [Interjections.] It also shows that Russia is proud of the agreement, in that it gives them all the benefits, while we take on all the risks of this R1 trillion project.
Ultimately the voters now have a stark choice between the ANC’s control and coercion ideology, which has brought us this constitutional and electricity crisis, and the DA’s approach of competition and co-operation that can finally lead our country to the true prosperity that it deserves.
As this is my last speech in this House for the foreseeable future, I do want to say, hon Deputy Speaker, that I trust that the members on this side of the House will do everything in their power to uphold the sanctity of this institution until I return. It has been an absolute privilege serving with all of you. I will miss you, but I will be back. I thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr L W GREYLING
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr President, Deputy President, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, I sometimes I think that the hon Greyling lives in another country. [Interjections.] I will tell you why. Hon Greyling and the DA continuously fight for the privatisation of Eskom. However, Eskom, my dear hon members, is the one utility that has been able to increase the number of people who have access to electricity, by almost 11 million households. [Applause.]
In 20 years we have been able to increase the number of electricity users in this country. Before 1984, for a hundred years, 5,2 million households, largely the white minority, had access to electricity. We couldn’t have had that with a privatised Eskom. Let me repeat that. We couldn’t have had that with a privatised Eskom. Let me also say that many households – many very poor people – have access to electricity today because we have free basic services. [Applause.]
Let me also say to the hon member Bhanga, who says that the DA stands for farm workers owning farms, that they have a kind of shareholding scheme in the Western Cape where farm workers can’t even see the books, even though they are part shareholders in the farms. So, it is spin and spin and spin, and it means nothing.
I rise, Mr President, to reinforce and expand upon what you said in your state of the nation address in relation to energy in general and the electricity supply challenge specifically, and to speak generally in favour of your address.
Let me begin from what will seem like a highly unlikely starting point. Recently, I received an unsolicited e-mail from Mr Cammy Fernandes, a retailer from Gordon’s Bay. [Interjections.] Did your mommies not teach you not to speak while others are speaking? [Laughter.] As I said, I received an unsolicited e-mail from Mr Cammy Fernandes, a retailer from Gordon’s Bay. He wrote:
It is sad that we are in a predicament with regard to Eskom. It is difficult to resolve immediately; therefore, I offer an idea to reduce consumption without cost or inconvenience.
His idea is based on the soft drink and beer-drinking habits of South Africans. He proposes that we get rid of walk-in fridges in bottle stores, which, for those who are unfamiliar with the inside of liquor outlets, are used to store mainly beer and soft drinks. On average these are about 50 m3 in size and guzzle electricity. He continued:
It hurts my heart that we have to keep walk-in coolers to keep both cold drinks and beers cold ... which are almost never consumed immediately.
He says that if we were to get rid of these fridges, we could reduce load shedding.
I must tell you, Speaker, that I initially laughed. However, when I thought about it, I began to appreciate his letter for a number of reasons. Firstly, I appreciated it for the spirit of volunteerism – he wrote to me without a thought of personal gain.
Secondly, there was the spirit of 2010 – his mindset was about overcoming huge challenges and not about bemoaning his fate, like that side of the House do. [Interjections.] “Woe is me! We’re having a bad time!” That is like that side of the House.
Thirdly, he identified a significant part of the solution - changing our behaviour and habits in relation to the use of electricity. He said that many South Africans expect soft drinks and beer to be chilled when they buy them, even when they are not likely to consume them soon. His solution changes the behaviour and expectations of consumers and reduces demand for electricity. [Interjections.] Don’t worry – I will return to Mr Fernandes later.
The government has made bold commitments to the country to reduce poverty, unemployment and inequality. So, in the face of this challenge, the Cabinet and our top officials have recently worked tirelessly to defend the gains we have made on these fronts.
In fact, Mr President, the hon Maimane himself said here today that South Africa is better today than it was 20 years ago - a huge credit to the ANC government. [Applause.] We should thank him, coming from the opposition benches, for that acknowledgement.
For example, in the current year alone Eskom has added about 100 000 new households to the grid, in addition to the connections effected by municipalities, with many more to come before the year ends.
The electricity supply challenge we face, when reduced to its simplest form, is that the demand for electricity is higher than the available supply – sometimes, and on some days. As a result, Eskom reduces every consumer’s supply as equitably as possible for a part of the day through load shedding. What we need to do to get things back to the way they were until mid-October last year is to increase supply and reduce demand to the point at which we always have more available electricity than the highest level of demand during any year.
I would like to look at supply first. The main problem is not that we do not have enough generating capacity. As I have said in this House before, when all our power stations are up and running at the same time, we have much more electricity than the very highest level of demand in any year. [Interjections.] To put that into numbers, we have about 15% more than we need now. Technically, that is referred to as the reserve margin and, globally, 15% is considered to be an acceptable level.
The reason that you need this additional generating capacity is to ensure that you have enough supply for two types of eventualities. [Interjections.] I think your toys were taken away a long time ago. [Laughter.] The first is when you switch off some of the units in power plants so that you can maintain them and replace certain parts. The second is when a component of a power plant breaks down, like when a coal silo collapsed at the Majuba Power Station.
While one can plan ... [Interjections.] The highest you’d ever be is a Whip, so be quiet. While you can plan the maintenance work, in all utilities all over the world units in power stations break down unexpectedly for a range of reasons. The main problem we are experiencing in the short term is that too much of the reserve margin is being used up to make good the losses of supply resulting from breakdowns, while we still have to use part of it to take out generating units within power stations for necessary planned maintenance.
Over the past six years the generating fleet has been run hard to meet demand while waiting for the new capacity to come on line. [Interjections.] What that means is that the scheduled preventative maintenance has been delayed. [Interjections.] I now know what they call the “yappy class”! [Laughter.] There have been two main consequences. [Interjections.] All they do is to yap at my ankles and I just hear the little peep sounds coming from this side! [Laughter.]
Let me repeat what I said. Over the past six years the generating fleet has been run very hard to meet demand while waiting for new capacity to come on line. What that means is that the scheduled preventative maintenance has been delayed.
There have been two main consequences of that. Firstly, there is the good part, that the lights have remained on – and you did not even notice it. The bad part is that in the six years there has been wear and tear on the equipment at power stations, and this has increased to the point where we are experiencing an unacceptably high number of breakdowns.
This practice has now been stopped. Eskom is now following its preventative maintenance schedules to the letter and to the highest standards. This means that it is taking generating units out of commission for periods of time, even if it results in load shedding. In this way, over time ... [Interjections.] You didn’t speak today. Ah! That’s why you’re speaking now. [Laughter.] I almost forgot my shadow! [Laughter.]
Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker, ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: In this way, over time, ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, ...
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: ... even if it results in load shedding, ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, ...
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: In this way, ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: ... please take your seat. What are you rising on, hon member?
Mr I M OLLIS: We would like to know if mommy will take a question about Medupi.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I’m sure daddy can use his time adequately somewhere else. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Proceed, hon member. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Allow the Minister to complete her speech.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: In pursuing this course, they have my full support and the support of important voices in the business sector. This is the hard, short-term choice that we have had to make in order to put load shedding behind us in the medium to long term.
It is imperative now that government, Eskom and our social partners pursue all other viable means of increasing supply. To this end, Cabinet has established a war room of Ministers led by the Deputy President, and in this regard there is some good news.
Firstly, Eskom has carried out emergency repairs at the Majuba Power Station. Majuba is now able to provide full power during the morning and evening peaks and an average of 85% power during the day. [Applause.] Permanent repairs are under way to enable Majuba to provide full power during the day as well.
Secondly, a procurement process is under way to replace the boiler at Eskom’s Duvha Power Station, which failed last year. It failed last year and it had many insurance issues with international insurance companies. [Interjections.]
Thirdly, Eskom is expediting ... [Interjections.] Yappy! [Laughter.] Eskom is expediting its programme of building the Medupi, Kusile and Ingula Power Stations, which are scheduled to add an additional 10 000 MW to the grid between June 2015 and May 2020.
Ms E N LOUW: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker: ...
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: So, I am very pleased to announce ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, please take your seat. Hon member, what are you rising on?
Ms E N LOUW: Is the Minister of Load Shedding prepared to take a question? [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: When she arrives in the room. [Laughter.] Speaker, I am very pleased to announce that the Medupi Unit 6 turbine commissioning has ... [Interjections.] I want to tell you this. [Interjections.] The Medupi Unit 6 turbine commissioning has reached a critical milestone. It is now running at the optimum speed of 3 000 revolutions per minute. I really think you should say, “Well done!” to Eskom. [Applause.]
Fourthly, government and Eskom are committed to working with the private sector and municipal power producers to add further supply to the grid. In support of this, government is fast-tracking regulatory processes to enable the current cogeneration contracts between Eskom and private sector power producers to be renewed, and, for the next, we will have to bring additional cogeneration on. This will augment the grid as well. By April 2015, this will add 1 000 MW. [Interjections.]
Fifthly, the government is currently running a process of procuring additional longer-term cogeneration from private sector independent power producers. There has been an incredibly good response to the request for expressions of interest, and it is envisaged that this will add 800 MW more to the grid over the next 18 months.
Sixthly, the government is expediting the process of bringing more renewable energy independent power producers onto the grid through its third and fourth renewable energy procurement windows, and by accelerating the completion of the construction of approved renewable energy projects. An additional 1 100 MW will be brought onto the grid from the fourth renewable energy procurement window.
The Department of Energy has issued a request to IPPs for proposals for a new 2 400 MW coal-fired power station and, of course, we are in the pre-procurement stage of a process of procuring 9 600 MW of nuclear power. [Interjections.] The DA doesn’t like to know that we’re doing something; they really want to know that we are doing nothing. [Interjections.]
Finally, the government is also working with Eskom, Transnet and PetroSA on a number of initiatives to increase electricity supply from gas-fired power stations and from hydroelectricity.
All of these supply-related initiatives should see us emerge from our current electricity supply challenge over the medium term.
Let me now turn to the matter of the demand for electricity and, in particular, ways of reducing it.
An expression of interest process is under way to identify a range of demand management initiatives, including solar water heating and the replacement of light bulbs and geysers. Government is also in discussion with business and labour regarding the feasibility of other innovative proposals for reducing demand at peak periods, such as making changes to shift times.
It would be remiss of me if I did not applaud our biggest business consumers and their workers for the magnificent way in which they have responded to Eskom’s and government’s appeals to reduce demand, sometimes at short notice and at critical times.
Eskom and municipalities are working closely to improve the management of load shedding. This includes better isolation of critical facilities such as hospitals, better traffic management, improving communication, and creating greater predictability. Remember, the only province where jobs were lost was the Western Cape. [Applause.]
However, a significant part of the solution is in the hands of citizens who consume electricity in their homes and their businesses. Mr Fernandes saw that many of us use electricity wastefully and unnecessarily, without really thinking about it. [Interjections.]
Why is the DA so angry? [Interjections.] You didn’t win the election. [Interjections.] You don’t run the country. [Interjections.] You got less than the 30% that you thought you were going to get. When you run the country, you can ... [Interjections.] Don’t point your finger at me! [Interjections.]
Mr I M OLLIS: Sorry, Minister. Will you take a question?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: His idea on its own ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, who gave you permission to speak?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: When I have time. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member.
Mr I M OLLIS: Deputy Speaker, will the Minister take a question?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: At the end of my speech.
His idea on its own ... [Interjections.] No. No. [Interjections.] I’m just appalled at how rude you are. That’s all.
Mr Fernandes’s idea on its own, if implemented, is unlikely to halt the need for load shedding, but if we all follow his example, we will collectively reduce demand to a level which may well reduce the need for load shedding. Demand reduction has been one of the most effective tools employed by consumers in countries that are experiencing similar challenges.
This means that we must all consciously do all the things that we have been asked to do, like installing energy-efficient light bulbs in houses and offices; switching off our geysers when we go away - especially those of you who live in mansions; turning off the lights in our houses at night; not using our air conditioners; and using gas rather than electricity for cooking and heating. [Interjections.]
Of course, now that we are having a joint sitting, we can say to every single municipality: “Switch off your street lights during the day!” [Interjections.] Whether I am in Gauteng or the Western Cape, I always see street lights burning during the day. It’s not necessary! [Interjections.]
Mr Fernandes concluded his e-mail by capturing the essence of my message. He wrote, and I quote: “It is a small price to pay for everybody to benefit.”
I have focused mainly on generation. However, I do want to turn briefly to a very worrying trend on the distribution front.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Make it brief, hon Minister, because your time is limited.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Deputy Speaker, once again, I know that these SONA debates are adversarial, but I believe that there is one issue on which we should all be pulling together in the best interests of all of those whom we represent, and that is energy. I urge all citizens to follow the lead taken by Cammy Fernandes. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr I M OLLIS: Sorry, Deputy Speaker. Does the Minister have time remaining for a question?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Her time has expired, sir. That you can ask me. Her time has expired. Please take your seat.
Hon President, hon Deputy President and hon members, I think you deserve a break for 15 minutes. Let’s come back after 15 minutes. Thank you very much.
Business suspended at 16:18 and resumed at 16:39.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, hon President and colleagues, let me start by congratulating our President on a successful delivery of his state of the nation address, ... [Applause.] ... which was well received by the majority of our people, as can be judged from the many positive comments that were made over the past weekend. Your address, Mr President, outlined a coherent set of achievements and programmes going forward in pursuit of the goal of promoting a better life for all.
In your address you invited us all to join you in celebrating the 60th anniversary, or diamond jubilee, of the adoption of the Freedom Charter, when you declared that this year is the year of the Freedom Charter and radical economic transformation. Sixty years later, we celebrate the unity of our people and the pronouncements of the Freedom Charter, which find expression in our Constitution, as can be deduced from its Preamble which states:
We, the people of South Africa,
Recognise the injustices of the past;
Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land;
Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and
Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.
This Preamble has its foundation in the Freedom Charter. We support the initiative alluded to by the Minister of Arts and Culture, of teaching our children at school to recite the Preamble as part of the curriculum. Central to the establishment of a legal and just order, the Freedom Charter pronounces as follows:
All national groups shall have equal rights!
The people shall share in the country’s wealth!
All shall be equal before the law!
All shall enjoy equal human rights!
The National Development Plan, adopted in 2011, ushered in by your government, Mr President, and endorsed by the majority of our people – including, incidentally, most of the opposition parties represented here – not only reiterates this seamless vision, but puts forward formidable steps for action for its full and effective realisation, and depicts an end state envisaged by Vision 2030, namely that:
In 2030 people living in South Africa feel safe and have no fear of crime. They (are) safe at home, at school and at work, and they enjoy an active community life free of fear. Women can walk freely in the street and the children can play safely outside. The police service is a well-resourced professional institution staffed by highly skilled officers who value their works, serve the community, safeguard lives and property without discrimination, protect the peaceful against violence, and respect the rights of all to equality and justice.
Mr President, on Thursday you also alluded to an integrated justice system and its capacity to fight crime and corruption.
The NDP is an overarching policy that guides government in the implementation of programmes aimed at the realisation of the goals of our Constitution. To this end we have made the following strides in the past 21 years.
We have: demilitarised the Police; adopted a corrective rehabilitation approach in the management of offenders; transformed the justice system so as to enhance representivity and access to justice by, amongst others, the rationalisation of magisterial districts, which we launched in Diepsloot on 1 December last year; and built over 53 new courts, mainly in rural areas and townships, as part of the comprehensive infrastructure build programme that you, Mr President, have been at the helm of promoting since you took office.
We have also constructed, and are in the process of constructing, new High Courts in Limpopo and Mpumalanga. These provinces will, for the first time, have High Courts of their own, and they are due to be unveiled in 2015 and 2016 respectively. [Applause.]
The Office of the Chief Justice has been proclaimed as a separate state department to enhance the efficiency of the courts and the independence of the judiciary.
The National Prosecuting Authority continues to exercise its powers and functions without fear, favour or prejudice. It does so from the mandate it derives from the Constitution and the law. We are, however, on course in addressing the leadership challenges currently facing that institution. [Applause.]
We are talking about an NPA whose performance continues to improve in the courts, for example by achieving a 94,4% conviction rate in complex commercial crimes during the third quarter of the current financial year and exceeding its target of 93%. Is this a “broken NPA”, hon Maimane? [Interjections.]
Over the past 20 years of democracy there has been an outflow of legislation, policies and jurisprudence, emanating from the three arms of our democratic state and giving effect to the Constitution. This includes the enactment of the Constitution Seventeenth Amendment Act, the Superior Courts Act, the Legal Practice Act and the new Legal Aid Act. All of these were passed by the fourth democratic Parliament towards the conclusion of the second decade of our democracy, quite appropriately so.
One of the national priorities flowing from the NDP is the need for youth employment, which must not be overlooked given the challenges that confront our youth today. A youthful population gainfully employed contributes directly to the lessening of inequality in incomes and access to opportunity, thereby enhancing the prospects for social coherence, cohesion and stability and reducing socially motivated crime.
In line with government’s priorities, the peace and stability cluster continues to make a positive contribution in addressing youth unemployment. Let me, in this regard, highlight some of their achievements.
Sir, 980 learners have been permanently appointed to entry level positions in learnership programmes of Correctional Services; some 446 youth have been trained as correctional officers; 999 learners commenced their learnership programme training in February 2014; 55 unemployed law graduates have been placed in internships to provide capacity in regard to the newly introduced court-annexed mediation programme, which seeks to make litigation more affordable and accessible to ordinary people who cannot afford the costs of pursuing civil litigation; 416 interns have been placed, across various sections in the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, to gain exposure in the various components of the department; some 200 unemployed paralegals have been placed at the courts to get exposure to and provide capacity regarding quasi-judicial processes; and the list goes on and on.
No functional and self-respecting state or nation will ever condone anarchy resulting from the use of violence, even in the exercise of the legitimate and constitutional rights of protest and of freedom of expression, association or conscience. We therefore condemn in the strongest terms the violent acts against fellow citizens, the burning of public infrastructure, and the severe disruption of services. [Interjections.] Incidents of this nature have in recent times had the effect of disrupting the schooling of our children, who face the brunt of this suffering.
Their acts are no different from what hon Malema said in his speech, when he agitated for the unlawful and criminal conduct of so-called land grabs. It is irresponsible for a leader, especially one who represents an important sector in our community, to encourage lawlessness in a democratic country that is subject to the rule of law. [Applause.]
The ANC condemns in the strongest terms the recent spate of violence in Soweto and many other areas, where these incidents occurred: amongst others, the looting of shops, the displacement of foreign nationals and other incidents of public violence in these communities ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister. Can you just take your seat, hon Minister? What point is that?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, we were told that this is the Year of the Freedom Charter and now we are told that the Freedom Charter is illegal.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What point is that?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I asked to address you. The Freedom Charter says that people can occupy land wherever they choose. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! Hon Ndlozi! Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: So the Minister must tell us if that is illegal.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Ndlozi!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Is that unlawful?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Ndlozi, please take your seat. That is not a point of order.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: You must not allow the rubbishing of the Freedom Charter like that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you please take your seat? That is not a point of order, because you are now debating. Can you allow the Minister to please continue with his speech in this debate? Minister, please continue.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: “Nnete e a hlaba.” [The truth hurts]. As government we are ensuring that the SA Police Service acts decisively and with sternness regarding people involved in acts of vandalism, intimidation or any other type of public disorder. All stakeholders in society must be part of the solution and exercise restraint when dealing with these matters, in order to ensure that none amongst us exacerbates the situation by escalating tensions in an already sensitive situation.
What we witnessed on Thursday night during the state of the nation address was unfortunate and unprecedented. The unholy alliance of the DA and the EFF ... [Interjections.] ... clearly conspired to achieve anarchy, and the two were at pains to outdo each other in their attempts to ...
Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, just hold it.
Ms E N LOUW: On a point of order, Chairperson: ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Let me hear your point of order.
Ms E N LOUW: You must sit, Minister.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! No, no, no! It is not for you to tell the ... [Interjections.]
Ms E N LOUW: So you are condemning women being beaten up by men.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you, can you, can you ... [Interjections.] Hon member!
Ms E N LOUW: You are condemning women being beaten up by men.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Hon member!
Ms E N LOUW: Is that what you are saying?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Hon member, order!
Ms E N LOUW: In this Parliament, you are condemning that?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, order!
Ms E N LOUW: You are condemning that?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order, hon member!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order! Order, hon members! Can we please avoid the situation of addressing the member who is at the podium?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair, the procedure is that whenever a point of order is raised here, whoever is at the podium must sit down.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: So next time there is a point of order, you must instruct whoever is there to sit down.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Fine. I take the point, but it is equally incorrect for a member to stand up and instruct the member who is at the podium to sit down. [Interjections.] It is my responsibility to do that. So, can you please also respect the fact that it is the responsibility of the presiding officer? [Interjections.] Hon Minister, would you continue with the debate?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Deputy Chairperson, we need to respect the will of the people and in this case the people chose the ANC to lead the government. [Applause.] For the ANC, this is an activist Parliament and we have the mandate of the majority to change the lives of our people for the better. [Interjections.] The opposition perceive Parliament ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just hold on, hon Minister. Hon members, can we just respect the decorum of the House? There is nothing wrong with interjecting, but do not disturb the speaker. Please! [Interjections.] Can we allow the speaker to speak and listen to what he is saying? Hon Minister, proceed with the debate.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I think this just confirms the opposition’s perception of Parliament as a forum of confrontation, rather than a place to promote better lives for our people and transform society for the better. They continuously lack depth of understanding and the character of nation-building and transformation, and they seek to ensure nonco-operation.
The Constitution, as the supreme law of the country, stipulates in Chapter 4 that Parliament must provide a national forum for the public consideration of issues – not a place to howl at each other, by the way. The vision of Parliament is to build an effective People’s Parliament that is responsive to the needs of the people and is driven by the ideal of realising a better life for all.
The people of South Africa chose the ANC to govern and no one should have illusions of minority rule, as we have seen in this Parliament from some members of the opposition parties wanting to rule from the benches. They have wanted to do this by questioning the constitutionality and legitimacy of calling security services, for example, to keep peace and order in this House, at the sanction of the presiding officers.
Section 199 of the Constitution, which deals with security services, refers to:
... a single defence force, a single police service and any intelligence services established in terms of the Constitution.
So, even if the SA National Defence Force were deployed in Parliament, ... [Interjections.] ... as long as the intervention was necessary, justifiable and sanctioned by the presiding officers, it would be perfectly legitimate. [Applause.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister. Please take your seat, hon Minister. What point is that, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: The point of order is that the hon member is now reflecting on a matter that is sub judice. [Interjections.] It is in court and is also under investigation by the Parliamentary Oversight Authority. We also have a member here who has not eaten for some four days as of today, because her jaws were broken by the police of President Zuma! Now he is reinstating that. Can he withdraw what he has said?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, can you take your seat? Please take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.]
Hon members, the Rules of Parliament, of course, do state that if a matter is before a court of law, reference should not be made to that matter in Parliament. However, I must make the following point. I am not sure whether the matter that the member is referring to is sub judice. If it so, I would request that the member speaking at the moment should refrain from referring to the matter. That is, if the matter is before the court. Can you proceed with the debate, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Chair, I can just confirm that I am not aware of what matter is or is not before a court, and would be more than happy to be provided with evidence to that effect. [Interjections.] But, for the time being, I will desist from referring to that matter.
Section 4 of the Powers and ... [Interjections.] Okay, in the light of the concern that Mr ...
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chairperson, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just hold on, hon Minister. Hon Malema?
Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: You can’t sit back and allow this.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you take your seat?
Mr J S MALEMA: We said that when you call for order, this comrade must sit down.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no. No, no, no!
Mr J S MALEMA: Please man! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you allow me to ask the Minister to take his seat? [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: No, he must sit down. Sit down, chief! Sit down! Please! It is a Rule.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: You must know the Rules, man! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: You are a Minister of Justice without rules.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, you are out of order!
Mr J S MALEMA: Sit down. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, you are out order now. You are out of order now. I made it clear earlier on that it is my responsibility to request the member to take his seat. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Do your job! Do your job, chief!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, will you take your seat? [Interjections.] Hon Minister, please continue with the debate. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The problem with the Fifth Parliament is that, unlike previous Parliaments, MPs who were ordered to leave by a presiding officer did so. In the current Parliament, firstly the EFF and then the DA members have on numerous occasions refused to do so or to obey any other legitimate directive by a presiding officer. [Interjections.] Previously the Speaker ...
Ms H O MAXON: I have a point of order, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, will you take your seat? What is your point or order, member?
IsiZulu:
ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILE: Ayihlale phans’ ibamb’ umthetho.
English:
Ms H O MAXON: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: After what the Minister has just said, it is clear that now the members of this Parliament are targets. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is your point of order?
Ms H O MAXON: Their pictures are being used as targets by the SA Police Service, because they are taking instructions from the Minister. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is your point of order, member?
Ms H O MAXON: That is the point of order, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, that is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Will the hon Minister continue with the debate? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I think it is about time the EFF learnt to take the heat, just as it chooses to unleash heat on other people. [Applause.] Sometimes people say that if you don’t like the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema? Hon Minister, please take your seat. Let me take the point of order.
Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: We are dealing with a very sensitive matter here, where we have our member in hospital ... [Interjections.] ... and the Minister stands up here to justify illegal actions committed by the police under the illegal instructions of the Speaker. I think he is out of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is your point of order?
Mr J S MALEMA: The matter is very sensitive. A female has been assaulted.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the point of order?
Mr J S MALEMA: A woman has been assaulted, Chair. I want you to rule on that matter.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the point of order?
Mr J S MALEMA: The point of order is that this comrade is talking about sensitive matters here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. No, that is not ...
Mr J S MALEMA: This comrade ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): That is not a point of order.
Mr J S MALEMA: There is a person in hospital, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, please take your seat.
Mr J S MALEMA: ... assaulted by police ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please take your seat. That is not a point of order.
Mr J S MALEMA: ... on the instructions of the Speaker.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please take your seat. That is not a point of order. Hon Minister, please continue with the debate. [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, please take your seat. Let me take this point of order.
Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Chairperson, you ruled earlier that if the matter truly is before the courts, the Minister should refrain from talking about it. [Interjections.] I can confirm to you that a criminal case has been opened against the Speaker and the Chairperson of the NCOP ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Gardee, please take your seat.
Mr G A GARDEE: ... and he should stop referring to this matter.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.]
Hon members! Hon members! I would like to make this point again. [Interjections.] Let us refrain from making any reference to any matter that may be before a court of law or registered as a case with the police. At the moment, as we speak ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I am still speaking. I am still speaking. [Interjections.] At the moment we are not sure whether anything has been brought before the presiding officers as a matter. So I request that if we are not certain about this, or if anybody stands at the podium and is not certain regarding whether a matter has been brought to our attention, we refrain from referring to it. Let us allow ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): The matter has not officially been brought to the attention of the presiding officer.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you said we must do so if we have got it. The Minister himself said that if we have got evidence we should give the evidence.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I see the hon Surty.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Here is a court case number and a police statement ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I recognise ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... stamped by the SA Police Service.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Shivambu! Can you take your seat, hon Shivambu?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can you please tell him to shut up on those ... [Inaudible] ... issues?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please take your seat.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Please!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please take your seat. Did you say the Minister should “shut up”?
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I said he must keep quiet on those issues, because it is before ... [Interjections.] ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! No, no, no! No, no, no! Can you confirm ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... before the judiciary. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you confirm with me: Did I hear the words, “shut up”? Did you use the words, “shut up”? [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, I did say “shut up”, but ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please withdraw the words, “shut up”, if you used them.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I withdraw the words “shut up” ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... and then say he must keep quiet on that issue.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Take your seat, hon member. I now recognise the hon Surty.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, we have heard concerns being raised by members of the opposition about the sanctity of this House. We have heard about the importance of freedom of expression and the importance of creating stability within this democratic environment.
The issue ... [Interjections.] The issue ... [Interjections.] This is purely ... [Interjections.] This is a protection ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, this is exactly what I cautioned members on earlier. [Interjections.] Even before they raise their points of order, they will build up to the points of order. [Interjections.] Please allow me to hear what hon Surty wants to say as a point of order that he is raising. Hon Surty, please continue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The point of order, hon Deputy Chairperson, is the fact that the speaker, the hon Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, is entitled in terms of the Rules to reflect on the Constitution and to act in terms of the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act.
He did not in his statement refer to or reflect on any pending case, seeking to influence any particular outcome. Indeed, what he conveyed to the House ... [Interjections.] This is the unruly conduct that we have ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Deputy Chairperson, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: ... from hon members.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I am still taking this point of order.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I am still addressing the Chair. Would you please sit down, sir? Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
My point of order is that the point of order raised by the hon Malema and his colleagues has absolutely no substance under the Rules, and therefore there is no reason why ... [Interjections.] There is no reason, and I say it with the greatest of respect. I know the truth hurts. That is why they are going to continue ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: I have a point of order, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: They do not want ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: There is a gentleman that would like ... [Inaudible.] ... point of order.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: The only voices that they seek to hear are their own.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson. Hon Deputy Chairperson. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon Surty. All right. Thank you very much, hon Surty. Take your seat.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson. [Interjections.] I shall sit down when I am instructed to do so. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! Hon members! Hon members, will you all take your seats?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: I am not going to be harassed or intimidated by you hon members. [Interjections.] And I will have to say what I am going to say. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Would you all take your seats? Hon members! Hon Malema, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Yes. Come! I am not afraid. [Interjections.] This is the kind of intimidation ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can you conclude the point of order? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, the point of order and the point of argument are that there is no legitimate basis for hon members to raise the issue of sub judice cases. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: Chairperson! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Surty, would you take your seat please?
Mr J S MALEMA: Chairperson!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Would you all take your seats?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you so much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Would you all take your seats? All of you.
Mr J S MALEMA: No, but he must not do that!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Would you all take your seats? No. Would you all take your seats? [Interjections.]
May I just request one thing, hon members? The member at the podium is an hon member, and it is important for us to allow him to conclude his speech. Can we give him that opportunity to conclude his speech?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chair, we are rising on a point of order. Can we be recognised?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the point of order?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Thank you very much. Chairperson, we put it to you that the matter of police coming into the House to physically arrest and remove members is before the court. We did put it to you, and we are producing the evidence. We are saying ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Can I finish, Chair?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: When the Minister was speaking you allowed him to talk. Now I am talking and you are interrupting. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! Speak!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Therefore, we are not trying to disrupt members’ speaking, but we want the Minister to deliver his speech within the Rules. The matter is sub judice and you ruled earlier on that we should refrain from speaking about such matters. It is sensitive to us, because it has implications. It is we who were removed from here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. Now you are making a speech. .../
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. Now you are making a speech.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: So, we are asking you to rule on the matter that is before the court and the Minister’s refraining from speaking about it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. Hon members, let us take our seats. [Interjections.] Just calm down. Calm down. Calm down.
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, can I address you?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No. Calm down. [Interjections.] Let me respond to that. A point of order was raised before you started speaking.
Mr J S MALEMA: But I’m going to help you. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no. No. No. [Interjections.]
Hon members, I made the point earlier on that as I am seated here, and as presiding officers, we are not aware of any matter that has been brought to the attention of the presiding officers as a matter that is before the courts. What I am saying is this. I am requesting the House to respect the order that we should restrain ourselves from speaking on any matter that we are not sure of. Can we respect that order? Hon Minister, please proceed with the debate.
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair! Chair! Chair! Please, Chair, just briefly.
The DA has written a letter to the Powers and Privileges Committee to investigate this matter. [Interjections.] When we tried to raise issues here on a matter that was before the Powers and Privileges Committee, we were told that the matter was with the Powers and Privileges Committee. Apart from the issue of the court, he is trying to influence the outcome of a possible investigation by the Powers and Privileges Committee.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right then.
Mr J S MALEMA: The Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, please ...
Sepedi:
...boNtate bale ba be re goga ka ditapole mo man.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon members, that is where the problem is. Are you saying that you are challenging the ruling that I have made on this particular matter? Let us, all of us, please respect the order and allow the Minister to conclude his speech. You are not going to allow the ruling to continue: Is that what you are saying to me, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: I will give it to you, not like the hon Minister Surty was allowed to get away with; it’s 14Q. You’re aware that papers were served on the Speaker yesterday? Her office signed for them. If she hasn’t given you that information, that is not our problem. There is a decision pending. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But secondly, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I please finish? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, you are out of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I please finish? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are out of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No. You are out of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are out of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You are out of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are out of order, hon member. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I please ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are out of order. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I please finish? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are out of order, hon member. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I please finish? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Take your seat please. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Can I please finish? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Take your seat. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, I will not. Can I please finish? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I will not take my seat. I will not take my seat. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I would like to finish my point of order, ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... as is my right as a member of this House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I would like to finish my point of order, as is my right as a member of this House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon Chief Whip of the DA, I request you to take your seat. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m requesting you to allow me to finish my point of order, as is my right as a member of the House – the same right you extended to Minister Surty. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The same right you extended to Minister Surty. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Chief Whip, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I have not finished my point of order. You are obliged to hear my point of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Chief Whip, ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You are obliged to hear my point of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Chief Whip, I am requesting you to take your seat. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I would like to finish the point of order that I was making. I would like to request you to make a ruling on the matter. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): The reason why I am requesting you to take your seat is because I want to believe now that your point seeks to challenge the ruling that I have made.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, it doesn’t. I am asking you to make a ruling. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I have made a ruling on this matter.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, you haven’t even heard what the point of order I would like to raise is. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I’ve heard it. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You have not. You didn’t let me finish. [Interjections.] You interrupted me and didn’t let me finish. [Interjections.] I am asking you to make a ruling, House Chair, on whether the point of order raised by the hon Surty was, in fact, a valid point of order. Can you please rule on that matter? [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members!
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon Chair, may I address you? [Interjections.] May I address you?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Motshekga.
Dr M S MOTSHEKGA: Hon Deputy Chair, ... [Interjections.] Hon Deputy Chair, any matter that is before any court has a case number. Can we be given the case numbers of matters that are before the court? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, order! [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.]
I made a ruling on this particular matter earlier on. I made a ruling on this matter. I said, secondly, that I was beginning to get a feeling that members were challenging the ruling that I made earlier on with regard to this matter. This is a matter where, of course, I addressed everybody, including the member currently at the podium. That is why my decision is that we allow the member to speak and to conclude his speech in this debate.
Mr J S MALEMA: Case number? [Laughter.] Case number?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, take your seat please. Please take your seat. Hon Minister, please conclude your speech.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, this is a different point of order. May I be recognised please?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I’ll save the opposition benches the agony ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): May I take this point, hon ... [Interjections.]
Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chair. It is a different point of order. We’ve seen in this House how the decorum has deteriorated since the election ... [Interjections.] ... and one of the issues that has come up time and time again – and even the Deputy President recognised this in his agreement with opposition parties – is the inconsistency of the Rules being applied to members on different sides of the House by the Chairs.
We saw a classic example right now when you allowed the Deputy Minister of Basic Education to wax lyrical on a point of order, while you shut down the opposition. I am asking and pleading that in future presiding officers apply the Rules equally for members on both sides of the House. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Point taken. Hon Minister Pandor. [Interjections.] Just hold on, hon Minister of Justice and Correctional Services. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: I think it would have been helpful if the Chief Whip of the Opposition had been allowed to read 14Q, because it says:
No member shall reflect on the merits of any matter on which a judicial decision is pending.
It is not when you have preferred charges, but when a judicial decision is pending. So it would have helped. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please take your seat, again. I’m requesting you.
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I’m requesting you. I’m pleading with you. [Interjections.] No, no, no!
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! I am not going to allow a dialogue. [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: You allowed her to speak! [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, I will not allow a dialogue. I have been allowing members to rise on points of order. I am requesting you to take your seat. [Interjections.] I am requesting you to take your seat. Hon members, ...
Mr J S MALEMA: I’ve got a case number here ... [Laughter.] I’ve got a case number here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, come on. No, come on. Come on, hon Malema.
Mr J S MALEMA: Please. A judicial decision is pending. I’ve got a case number here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: People will be arrested. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema. [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members. Hon members, I made a ruling earlier on. Earlier on I made a ruling on a matter that was brought to my attention. I am requesting hon members – even the member at the podium – to refrain from referring to a matter where we are not sure whether it is before the judiciary or not. Let’s allow the member to continue with the debate. Please. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I asked you for a ruling on whether Deputy Minister Surty’s point of order was a valid point of order.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Has this member been recognised, hon Chairperson?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry. I am dealing with the Chair, not you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): As I said, I have made a ruling on the matter to say it was more of a statement.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, I want to know whether it was a point of order or not.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Has this member been recognised to speak, hon Chairperson? [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sit down, man! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, take your seat first please. [Interjections.] Hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I would just like a ruling on whether Deputy Minister Surty’s interventionist point of order was a valid point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I allowed the Minister to raise his point of order but, at the beginning, in the midst of raising his point of order, he raised issues. At the end he raised a point of order in which he said it was not important, and it was not good for members to intimidate other members when they wanted to speak, and this was a valid point of order. I ruled on that.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, what Rule are you applying there? What Rule did he rise on? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, take your seat ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, I am not going to take my seat! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): ... because you are challenging me now.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I am not! You can send the police in here to take me out. I want a ruling on this matter. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: If you want to send the police in here again to take me out, you can. I want to know what Rule. This is important because you are creating a precedent in this House now. I want to know what Rule states that you cannot intimidate members. Can you please point it out to me in the Joint Rules. I can’t find it. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No. Order! Order, hon members. Order, hon members! Hon members, I am going to allow the Minister to conclude his speech in the debate. Please conclude your speech, hon Minister. I have made a ruling. [Interjections.] I have made a ruling and ... [Inaudible.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: With respect, House Chair, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just take your seat, hon member.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just take your seat, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: I will make sure. I will make sure that ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Minister, take your seat please. Take your seat.
Hon members, I have made a ruling ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But which Rule have you applied, Chairperson? That’s all I am asking you to tell us.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): ... and the ruling that I have made is that the Minister’s point of order of cautioning us to not intimidate each other with regard to how we engage in the debate is an order that I carried. I am carrying that order.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, with all the humility I can muster, I would like to appeal – with all humility – to the members of this Assembly not to make monkeys out of us. I think this is the first time in the last more than 20 years that I have seen anyone bickering with a presiding officer. [Interjections.] If we establish the habit of bickering with the presiding officer, there can’t be any order here. We are wasting our own time in doing so. I appeal in this regard. It is no longer the apartheid era. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. All right.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: It is no longer the apartheid era where a young man like this can wave at me like this, at my age. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Minister, can you continue?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I am going to save the opposition from all the agony they have been causing themselves. It was a huge storm in a teacup, completely unnecessary.
Let me conclude by indicating that the simple point we as the ANC are making is this. As long as we enjoy holding the mandate to lead this country that has been expressed freely by our people, we will do so. We will execute this mandate with confidence. We will also ensure that, working with our courts, and working with all our institutions of democracy, we will uphold the rule of law and the Constitution. The Latin maxim, for those who are interested enthusiasts, says: “Fiat justitia, ruat caelum” which, simply translated, means “Let justice be done, though the heavens fall”. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Chairperson, hon President, hon Deputy President and hon members, what happened in this House last Thursday was extremely disappointing, shocking and painful, as we watched Parliament degenerate into chaos. Never before, since the advent of democracy, has a state of the nation address been interrupted; nor have we seen journalists hindered in executing their duties by the jamming of cellphone signals to prevent reporting on what was happening in Parliament.
When the President finally came to the podium, we expected him to strongly condemn the unacceptable and embarrassing developments he had just witnessed, but he said nothing and appeared to laugh everything off. At the very least, we would have expected him to reassure the nation of his commitment to protecting media freedom.
Now that we know that presiding officers were aware of the use of the jamming device in the building, we want to know why it was used, who installed it, and on whose instruction.
I am joined by many in praying that our Parliament will never experience such a chaotic spectacle again and, for this to happen, Members of Parliament must all do introspection and commit to building and not destabilising both Parliament and the nation. We must learn to respect each other and, when we disagree, we should remember that we are not enemies.
We hear what the Minister has said about Eskom, but the nation still remains extremely concerned that the ongoing load shedding by Eskom will, in time, lead to a total blackout. This is not just an energy challenge; we are facing a serious crisis. Eskom officials have repeatedly said that we are going to have load shedding for the next three years, and experts have warned that, if the national grid does collapse, it will take between two and three weeks to get it up and running again. Three weeks without electricity will mean three weeks without the most basic necessities, such as clean drinking water, petrol, healthcare and many other essentials.
Hon President, companies are losing business and are at risk of having to retrench staff. We need solutions. We need successful businesses that provide opportunities for employment, and for this we need a secure and stable supply of electricity. Energy is the bedrock of the economy. Without reliable and sustainable energy, there can be no development, no economic growth, no job opportunities and, consequently, no poverty alleviation.
The ADCP proposes the following as part of the solution. Firstly, maintenance at Eskom must be increased substantially, and highly skilled and all experienced engineers must be brought in urgently to address the problems. Secondly, government needs to open all sectors of the market to independent power producers and urgently put enabling legislation in place to facilitate this move to release the stranglehold of the Eskom monopoly. Thirdly, government needs to invest in strengthening transmission and distribution, as even the procurement of independent power production is limited by the lack of transmission line capability.
The ACDP is aware of the sensitivity around land and property ownership, and that is an issue weighing heavily on the hearts of our people. We do, however, caution against policy that will threaten food security and undermine foreign investment.
Looking further than our own situation, our hearts were broken recently by the reports and pictures of 21 Coptic Egyptian Christians killed in Libya. Every year approximately 100 000 Christians die for their religious beliefs in countries like Nigeria, Cameroon, Sudan, Somalia, and Egypt.
In the same week that the Paris attacks on Charlie Hebdo left 17 people dead, Amnesty International reported ... [Time expired.]
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Chairperson, I have a point of order, if I may put it. Can I address you?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Yes.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, there are 37 men standing outside this door – police, riot police – and there are another 15 outside that door. [Interjections.] I would like to know from you ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the point of order?
Mr M WATERS: Are they here to intimidate us? [Interjections.] This is Parliament. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No! What is the point of order?
Mr M WATERS: How can we have ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! Order! Order! I want to get the point of order.
Mr M WATERS: How can we have ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the point of order?
Mr M WATERS: How can we have a debate where we exchange ideas, and sometimes robustly, when we feel fear and are being intimidated by men standing outside that could come into this Chamber at any time? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, that is not a point of order. Hon Van Lingen, will you continue with the debate please? [Interjections.]
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, the local government elections of 2016 will see a two-way contest between the DA’s brand of good governance and the ANC’s failure to govern effectively at local level.
However, as we draw closer to the local government elections, we must not sidestep the contentious issue of municipal demarcation, especially when discussing the state of the nation. The DA firmly supports the constitutional provision for redemarcation of municipal boundaries. This must be based on a thorough assessment of the ability of our municipalities to provide South Africans with better service delivery.
What we do not support is using a democratic process to hold on to political power. There is a lack of leadership, poor governance and a breakdown of service delivery across ANC-run municipalities.
Afrikaans:
In ’n demokrasie lê die keuse tussen swak bestuur en goeie regering by die kiesers. In die ANC demokrasie, daarenteen, word daar ondermyn, gemanipuleer, en deur skuiwergate gekruip om verbete aan mag vas te klou terwyl meer en meer mag van die mense daar buite weggeneem word.
English:
The big question is whether the current round of municipal demarcation will improve service delivery and, ultimately, whether it will improve the lives of South Africans.
But where do we start? The ANC seems to be using this process as an exercise to avoid dealing with the real reasons why municipalities are failing. Why are the ANC provincial and national governments not holding municipalities accountable for their dismal performance? Why is it that where the DA governs we do not have failing municipalities and bad service delivery?
In ANC municipalities like Makana in the Eastern Cape and Ngaka Modiri Molema in the North West there is no accountability, no political will to deal with mismanagement, and a lack of planning. The President’s promise of good governance and accountability in municipalities runs counter to the Auditor-General’s assessment of widespread financial mismanagement, specifically in ANC-run municipalities. Most of the municipalities are in financial distress, and their municipal managers are underqualified and overpaid. How can 170 chief financial officers out of the 278 not have adequate qualifications to do their jobs in spite of regulations and legislation?
In the DA-run Western Cape our track record is clear, hon Ace Magashule. [Interjections.] We excel in clean audit outcomes, proving that we are still the best-run province in South Africa – better than the Free State.
How long will the ANC wait before they can tell South Africans they can do the same, or perhaps better? Unless corrupt, incompetent civil servants and cadres are removed, sanctioned and blacklisted, good governance will remain elusive.
In the previous state of the nation address, and the President is not here to hear this, he referred to 23 municipalities in distress. The truth is that all of these municipalities are district municipalities and that there are, in fact, 112 municipalities under those 23 district municipalities. So, the President used the truth rather sparingly. It is a clear indication that the ANC is failing at local government level and is also failing the people on the ground.
This is the reason why the hon Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has proposed 31 boundary changes since January this year. In real terms, this will affect 112 municipalities.
What is of great importance is that this demarcation process normally takes place in the first two years of a municipal election cycle of five years, when sufficient time is given for public participation, objection and possible litigation. The Minister is now proposing to cram this 24-month due-process cycle into six months, as a deadline for the end of July has been set to finalise municipal boundaries. One must take cognisance of this rush because the local government elections cannot take place more than three months after May 2016, which means no later than August 2016.
Afrikaans:
Reeds in Augustus 2011 is kennisgewings van die Munisipale Afbakeningsraad uitgestuur aan munisipaliteite dat dit hul laaste geleentheid sou wees om voorstelle in te dien ten opsigte van grensverskuiwings. Ewe skielik besluit die vreesbevange Minister van Samewerkende Regering en Tradisionele Sake, in ’n poging om die ANC se rampspoedige plaaslike regeringsrekord te verdoesel, om nie meer gehoor te gee aan die Grondwet, die Wet op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Stelsels, die Wet op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Strukture, die Wet op Plaaslike Regering: Munisipale Finansiële Bestuur, ensovoorts nie. Is die ANC besig om bang te raak, of is hulle besig om ons ’n rat voor die oë te draai? [Tussenwerpsels.] As daar geen politieke wil of daad is om die ANC se mislukkings reg te stel nie, verdien die ANC nie om te regeer nie.
English:
Through all this the President is paying lip service to eradicating corruption, and there is no commitment to applying the law to sorting out poor service delivery and maladministration at local government level.
It is easy to see that the reason for the current proposed demarcation of municipalities is to centralise authority, to amalgamate dysfunctional municipalities into bigger disasters, and to run away from the true responsibility of accountability and good governance. If the ANC succeeds in their gerrymandering, wards will become larger, local councillors will be thinly stretched across the wards, taxes might increase, and more jobs will be lost.
These poorly governed municipalities – sorry, I mean these dysfunctional municipalities – are exactly the products of dysfunctional ANC management. The municipal boundary changes that the ANC is now advocating are a smokescreen for its cadre deployment policies and its greed for power. This is a threat to our constitutional democracy and should be opposed at all cost. The electorate is smarter than the ANC thinks, and they can see right through this.
Shortly, in March, Salga will have a conference, and we look forward to the outcome of that conference. The DA will be there to explain how good governance works, and that will be the silver lining in a very bleak situation. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, your time has expired.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Deputy Chairperson, can I just conclude ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Your time is up, hon member.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: The DA will not stand by ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Van Lingen!
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... and watch the ANC taking local governance ... [Interjections.] ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Van Lingen, your time is up!
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: ... and power away from our voters. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr M P GALO
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
Mr M P GALO: Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson. Your Excellency President Zuma, and all protocol observed, I rise on behalf of the AIC to express our shock and disappointment at the unacceptable happenings that marred the state of the nation address on Thursday last week. Indeed, it was a bad experience in this Parliament of the leaders of our country, and it does not need a rocket scientist to know that the image of our beloved country has been irreparably damaged.
May I remind the President and the nation that the commander-in -chief on the other side was groomed by the hon President here, and the commander-in-chief was even prepared to kill for the President. [Interjections.] The chaos and barbarism we are experiencing in this Parliament is not about Nkandla, but about the fact that you, hon President, expelled your young lions and now they have vowed to make your life uncomfortable in this Parliament, until you realise that you were wrong in expelling them from their beloved ANC. [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: Speaker!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Galo! Hon Galo, please take your seat.
Ms H O MAXON: This member must not speak on behalf of the EFF.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is your point of order?
Ms H O MAXON: He does not know our programme as the EFF.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, that is not a point of order. Hon member, please continue with the debate.
Mr M P GALO: This is a clear indication that you and your ANC, Mr President, have failed dismally to produce quality, value-based leaders in your organisation. As a result, our beloved country is on fire.
The question is: Who is to blame, Mr President? In an attempt to find a political solution in order to address the political problems that are threatening to take our nation backward, the AIC is of the view that we as a country should be brutally honest and take stock of the unacceptable happenings during the apartheid regime and also the current so-called democratic dispensation, and check whether we can’t find similarities.
The Marikana massacre took the lives of at least 34 people, nearly all striking workers employed by Lonmin. It was an exceptional event for South Africa.
It is common knowledge that in 1992 the Ciskei Defence Force, commanded by Oupa Gqozo, killed 28 anti-apartheid activists in Bhisho.
In the same year 40 people died at Boipatong but that case ... [Interjections.] I do not want to mention the party, but I am sure you know which party it is. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order! Order! Order, hon members!
Mr M P GALO: In October 1993 the teachers who were striking for better salaries were violently suppressed by the Transkei regime using security forces.
IsiXhosa:
Kanene yayingubani inkokeli eTranskei ngelo xesha? [Uwelewele.]
English:
One has to go back to the Soweto uprising of 1976 ... [Interjections.] ... to find an example of government security forces murdering more protesters than at Marikana. The last time such a large number of strikers were killed was in 1922.
What is especially galling is that the Marikana atrocity occurred, not under the apartheid regime hostile to the black majority, but under the democratically elected government hostile to the black majority. Around the world the victory of 1994 was greeted with excitement and high hopes, but the champion of the oppressed, the ANC, has now been revealed as the oppressor. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Galo, your time is up. Your time has expired. [Interjections.]
Mr M P GALO: Thank you, Deputy Chair. I thought you were sabotaging me again. [Time expired.]
Mr V E MTILENI
Mr M P GALO
Mr V E MTILENI: Avuxeni! [Good afternoon!]
HON MEMBERS: Ahee! [Good afternoon.]
Mr V E MTILENI: Deputy Chair, the President’s address marked the fact that 2015 is the 60th year since the adoption of the Freedom Charter in Kliptown. The Freedom Charter, which is often diluted by the ruling party’s narrow neoliberal agenda, demands a society in which all share the country’s wealth. It also demands free quality education, free basic health care, free housing and, more importantly, a just society in which all liberties are protected. [Interjections.]
The fact that the EFF was assaulted in this House by the police, the official opposition walked out in protest, ... [Interjections.] ... and the ANC caucus was left in this House is a characterisation of the state of the nation under the ruling party, in particular under President Jacob Zuma.
The employment rate of 15,3 million people who are working – which is celebrated – conveniently ignores the fact that our country has an incredibly high unemployment rate, one of the highest in the world, as more than 8 million people are still unemployed. In the second quarter of 2014 the number of discouraged job seekers increased by 64 000.
The President misled this House by claiming that crime had decreased, when murder increased from 16 259 murders in 2012-13 to 17 068 in 2013-14, an average of 45 murders per day.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Chair, on a point of order: The hon Mtileni has accused the President of having misled the House, but he himself is misleading the House. He must withdraw that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): On what matter, Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: He says the President misled the House, but he is misleading the House now.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But, Deputy Chair, I am sure you know that that is a point of debate. The Chief Whip of the Majority Party is being frivolous really. To say that he misled the House is a point of debate. It is not a question of order. It is not within the realm of order or no order, and so on. It’s an issue for debate. He is making the point that the House was misled, and that is allowed in terms of parliamentary language.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chair, when a member says anything which imputes something to the character of another member in the House, he or she should do so by way of a substantive motion. That is in the Rules and I do believe that there is merit in the argument of the Chief Whip. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, I would like to rule on the matter.
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Chair, just before you rule, I would like to say this. He says hon Mtileni cannot say that the President misled the House. However, he is misleading the House because he has used the same word that he says cannot be used against the President.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Chair, since you allowed him to stop you from making a ruling, I need hon Shivambu and hon Malema to listen. They were not listening to him. [Interjections.] They were not listening to him. The point he was making is that he was accusing the President of lying here by misleading this House. [Interjections.] I am saying that if he wishes to do that, he has to do it substantively by submitting a motion which substantively says where the President is misleading the House. He did not do that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, I would like to make a ruling on this particular matter and my ruling is as follows.
On the aspect of the President’s misleading the House without substantiation, for obvious reasons it is important for this to be clarified for the House. I mean, if you say someone is “misleading”, the question to ask is: misleading on what? Therefore, it is not appropriate just to make a statement without substantiating that matter.
In his point of order the hon member requested the hon member either to substantiate what he said through a motion, or to withdraw the statement because there was no substance in the statement that he made. In regard to order, it would only be fair.
I see the hon Mokoena. Ke go reeditse, rra. [I am listening to you, sir.]
Mr L G MOKOENA: Sorry, ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I am interrupted!
Mr L G MOKOENA: No, I thought you gave me a space.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Yes, I did.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, the hon member said that the President misled the House, and he gave alternative statistics. That is substantiating, is it not? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, there is an objection to the use of the word “misleading” without any substance being provided, and the request is that the hon member should withdraw the word unless it is substantiated. [Interjections.]
Hon Mtileni, are you able to substantiate ...
Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: We .../
Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: We .../
Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: We have been asked here not to use the word “lie”, and we have found a dignified way of saying the President is lying, because the President is lying. So we ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, you are not assisting the process ... [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: I’m saying it because we will end up not saying anything – effectively we will not say anything. He says the President misled the House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): By what?
MR J S MALEMA: It is the unemployment statistics he is giving. Listen to him! Listen to him!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. Let me give the hon Chief Whip of the Opposition an opportunity. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you very much. House Chairperson, I think it is fair political comment for members to say we are misleading one other. Where it is in breach of the Rules is when one member says a member is deliberately misleading the House. It is possible for us to mislead each other by error – we could give wrong information or we could have wrong statistics. But it is when a member deliberately misleads the House that it is unparliamentary.
I would submit that what has just been said about the President lying is unparliamentary. But misleading is well within the bounds of political comment and debates, and we should not shut that down in the House. Thanks, Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, ... [Interjections.] This is the kind of intolerance we are subjected to when we want to express ourselves and we really want to say we have to enshrine the freedom of expression.
Hon Chairperson, the word “misleading”, as in “misleading the House”, is equivalent to “lying”, and it is certainly unparliamentary. [Interjections.] It is certainly unparliamentary, unless it is accompanied by a substantive motion. [Interjections.] A substantive motion.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, what I do agree with ... [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon Chairperson, can I be allowed to complete my point? I do, however, agree with the hon Malema that the Chief Whip should withdraw the word “misleading” which he attributed to the hon member. There I do agree, and indeed he is correct as far as that is concerned. Thank you.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair, may I address you? Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Yes, and then allow me to make a ruling on the matter so that we can proceed.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: That’s right. Chair, there is a precedent in this House, where it has been said by many presiding officers that the words that you cannot use are “deliberately misleading”, but the word “misleading” can be utilised to refer to a situation where certain information was not given correctly. And that is what we have been doing, all of us.
If you give attention to the details of what all of us have said here, we have used the word “misleading”. Why, all of a sudden, does the Chief Whip of the ANC want to disrupt the member of the EFF in his delivering the message that he is delivering. I don’t understand that.
Don’t be under pressure because he is your Chief Whip and so on. You must be decisive. You must be a presiding officer who is fair, so that we respect this process, and then we will move forward. Don’t be pulled around like that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, I don’t know why you have to do that now. I really don’t know why you have to be doing that. In any case, I won’t get myself involved in the last part of that, whatever statement you have made.
I have been allowing members to speak, in order for me to be able to make a ruling on this matter.
Mr N SINGH: Deputy Chairperson, can you use Rule 14S and make a considered ruling on this matter. You don’t have to rule on it now. We are wasting the time of the House. Could you rule subsequently on what was said by all members of this House, because we could not hear what was being said. I am asking you to use Rule 14S and rule subsequently on this matter, and this could be tomorrow. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon Singh, because that is exactly the point. If I may just make a ruling on this matter, that is exactly the point that I want to come to in so far as making a ruling is concerned. I wish to satisfy myself what the exact words were that were used and see how these words came through.
Therefore, I request the House to allow me not to make a ruling now, but probably tomorrow or in the next Joint Sitting. Can you therefore allow me to make a ruling on this matter then? Does the House agree to that?
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I will accept that. I am not giving you permission – it is within your rights to take that decision.
But you can’t allow the hon Malema to go unpunished for saying that the President is “lying”. It is unparliamentary, and even “nomlungu wakhe utsho” [his boss says so]. He must withdraw that.
Mr J S MALEMA: I withdraw it, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much, hon Malema. Hon Mtileni, please will you continue with the debate?
Mr V E MTILENI: Thank you so much. Black people continue to get inferior services, and your police killed 43 protesters between 2006 and 2014, excluding the 37 which your government killed at Marikana. The people of Malamulele want their own municipality. The EFF supports that 100%.
Xitsonga:
Leyi mi nge ndzi yi veka kahle hi Xitsonga. Hi Dzivamisoko lembe leri nga hundza ku nga si fika nhlawulo wa mani na mani, Presidente va tile KaMalamulele laha va nga hlangana na “task team” [xipano xo tirha] ekerekeni ya Mufundhisi Malumani KaMavambe. Tsundzukani leswaku xiphiqo xa KaMalamulele xi fambe nkarhi wo leha. Presidente va fike va kombela va ku:
Vanhu va KaMalamulele, ndzi kombela leswaku mi ya vhota. Endzhaku ko vhota hi ti 31 Mawuwani 2014, ndzi ta mi nyika masipala.
A ndzi tivi hambi mi lava ndzi tirhisa rito ku hemba hikuva ku hava rito leri vulaka “mislead” [ku humba mano] hi Xitsonga. Presidente va byele vaakitiko va KaMalamulele hikwalaho sweswi mi vonaka ku ri na xiphiqo. Presidente a va vulavulanga ntiyiso KaMalamulele. [Mikavanyeto.] Va vutiseni hi lava va kona va ta ti hlamulela vona. A ndzi hlevi. Va vurile va ku ndzi ta mi nyika masipala. Yimani ndzi mi hlamusela ... [Mikavanyeto.] Yimani ndzi mi hlamusela. Xiphiqo hileswaku mi chava timhaka ta nwina ... [Mikavanyeto.]
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni! [Interjections.] Order! Order! [Interjections.] Hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni, I’m addressing you. I would just like to satisfy myself in regard to something. I don’t know if I heard you correctly. Did you say that the President is “lying”? [Interjections.] I asked hon Mtileni. Hon members, please allow hon Mtileni to answer.
Mr V E MTILENI: Let me answer you. There is no proper word in Xitsonga to say “lying”. If I were to say it, I would say the President “lied” to the people of Malamulele, because there is no proper word to say “mislead”. I am saying you can ask him, and maybe he should answer on Thursday. He is here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni!
Mr V E MTILENI: He came to Malamulele and asked the people of Malamulele to go and vote. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni! Hon Mtileni! [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: What do you mean I am a stupid? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni!
Mr V E MTILENI: Why do you say I am a stupid?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni! [Interjections.] I take it that the majority of us are Africans and we have ... [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, please allow me to speak. I might not be a Xitsonga-speaking person ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr V E MTILENI: Get an interpreter.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): ... but I have listened to the context in which whatever word you used in Xitsonga was. I believe that there should be a word that your child might use to indicate to you as his or her father that you are wrong.
Mr V E MTILENI: Ask Comrade Mdaka. Comrade Mdaka can interpret Xitsonga. [Interjections.] She is there. Comrade Mdaka. She can interpret. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chair!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): May I address hon Mtileni? [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, can we assist you in regard to what he is saying? [Interjections.] He said that because there is no other word which one can use ...
Xitsonga:
... ndzi ta vula leswaku a va nga vulavuli ntiyiso, kambe ndzi nge tirhisi rito ro a va hemba loko va ri KaMalamulele.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are still not assisting, hon member.
Xitsonga:
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: A mi ndzi twi leswaku ndzi ri yini. Yingiselani ku sungula mi ta kota ku vulavula leswaku hi ya njhani emahlweni.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni, may I just caution you? Just take your seat, hon member.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But you have not understood. I am trying to give the context of what he said.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Hon Mtileni, I would like to address you quickly. Please refrain from using any word that may, when used in this House in whatever context, lead to a point where I may interpret it as saying, “lying”.
Mr V E MTILENI: Yes, I understand, Chair. He is the head of the state. I think we are at work here and we should be listened to. I am saying that the cause of the problem now at Malamulele was the ... [Interjections.] The President was the third person to come and speak to the people of Malamulele.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni.
Mr V E MTILENI: First there was the then Minister, Richard Baloyi. The second was the current Premier, Stanley Mathabatha. They instigated what is actually happening now. The last was the President, who deliberately said to the people that they should go and vote. You can check, as it is on record ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Are you continuing with the debate?
Mr V E MTILENI: ... on 31 July. I will give you a municipality. That is why the people cannot trust this government any more. So I think maybe the President is going to answer for himself. [Interjections.]
Xitsonga:
Ndzi lava ku hlamusela leswaku mina ndzi tswariwe KaMalamulele ni tlhela ni kulela kona. Malamulele yi tshikiwile hi mfumo lowu hambiloko wu kuma tivhoti to tala eka vanhu va KaMalamulele. Kumbexana vukona bya Holobye Pravin_Gordhan na President hi voxe byi ta langutisa xiphiqo xa KaMalamulele va kota ku xi lulamisa.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson. .../
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson. .../
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Is that a point of order?
Mr M WATERS: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni, please take your seat.
Mr M WATERS: Hon Chairperson, I am sorry to interrupt the speaker but, Chair, you made a comment earlier that not everyone in this Chamber is African. I think that needs to be withdrawn. Thank you. Everyone in this Chamber is African.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP(Mr R J Tau): Come again? No, no, no! You didn’t even listen, because you interrupted me. That is why I could not even conclude what I wanted to say. Therefore I will not conclude that. Hon member, please continue with the debate? [Interjections.] Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, can I get your guidance? Firstly, how does one correct an hon member in respect of the fact that the President did not say what he alleges he said in Malamulele. [Interjections.] Secondly, how does one tell the hon member we have been there, we understand the conditions and we spelled out the package yesterday? [Interjections.] Perhaps you can guide me. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, let us not get into another debate now. Hon Mtileni, continue with the debate and avoid any situation of misleading us.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, on a point of order: I would like you to make a ruling as to whether the point of order taken by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is, in fact, a valid point of order?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I wouldn’t take it so. Please continue with the debate, hon Mtileni.
Mr V E MTILENI: All right. Thank you. In South Africa two white people ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni.
Mr V E MTILENI: Oh! All right.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chair, you asked the hon member a question, which he did not respond to. Your question was: How does your child address you if he thinks you are not speaking the truth? [Interjections.] He did not answer that question in order to determine the meaning of the word which he said.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I took it that was difficult for him to answer that question. That is why I allowed him to continue. [Interjections.] Can you continue with the debate, Chief.
Mr V E MTILENI: No, I am happy that Minister Chabane ...
Mr S J MALEMA: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: You see, you can’t harass us like that. Hon Minister Chabane stands up and he does not rise on any point. You don’t call him to order. You even smile at him. [Interjections.] However, if it is us here, we get subjected to harassment. [Interjections.] Please! We are equal here! There is no upper House here! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, I will smile. I will smile at you, hon Malema. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. Continue with debate, hon member. [Interjections.] Maybe I must smile, yes!
Mr V E MTILENI: I am happy, because Minister Chabane has been mum throughout. I knew he was going to speak when stood up, because he is one of the main causes of the problems there. [Interjections.] [Applause.] He is unable to represent his own people, whereas the President is improving Nkandla day in and day out. So, those are some of the things. Maybe I should just finish my speech. [Interjections.]
Before the elections the ANC promised South Africans 50% ownership of the land, only to find that its equity requires black farm workers to give disciplined labour to white farmers for at least 10 years. Now the President says foreigners will not be allowed to own land. The ANC has mastered the art of talking as though they are busy, when they have redistributed only 7% of the land – at a cost of billions.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni, can you take your seat?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is the member aware that he is being tribalistic? Can he take a question? [Interjection.]
HON MEMBERS: No! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! No, no, no! hon Mtileni, are you prepared to take a question? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Yes, I have the right.
Mr V E MTILENI: Maybe I’ll be sitting there in no time from now. We will talk. You will ask me there and I will answer you. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: I will. I will.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right. He is not prepared to take a question. Please continue, hon member. [Interjections.]
Mr V E MTILENI: I was saying that the Premier of Limpopo and his house know exactly what is actually happening in Malamulele. Therefore, they are just ignoring the people because ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Mtileni, your time is up. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Hon Magadzi, please continue with the debate.
Ms E N LOUW: Chairperson, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What point is that?
Ms E N LOUW: I want you to make a ruling on this, and it is really critical.
IsiXhosa:
Laa mama unxibe izinto ezimzuba phaya, laa mama phaya ...
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Is that a member? [Interjections.]
Ms E N LOUW: ... she said to Commissioner Mtileni ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Is that a member? [Interjections.]
Ms E N LOUW: ... that he was stupid. There are no stupid people here. [Interjections.]
Sesotho:
A ke ri bona ...
English:
... it was found out that they do not have qualifications ...
IsiXhosa:
... kwa-SABC naBaphathiswa babo.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member!
Ms E N LOUW: She must not come and say here that people are stupid. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member!
Ms E N LOUW: There are no stupid people here. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, please take your seat, because I did not hear that. Therefore, allow me to check the Hansard in regard to that statement. Hon Magadzi, please continue with the debate. [Interjections.]
Ms D P MAGADZI: Thank you, House Chairperson.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Chairperson, I have a point order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Yes, hon member.
Ms T J MOKWELE: Is it parliamentary for members of this House to wear party logos in the House? [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Hayi! Suka wena! [Uwelewele.] Suka! [Uwele-wele.] Hayi! Hayi! Shut up! [Interjections.]
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! [Interjections.] Hon member! [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Shut up! I don’t have a logo. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, order! [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE:
IsiXhosa:
Andinguye u-izani izani.
Setswana:
Ginger, didimala.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Order! [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! Hon members! [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Angie Motshekga is wearing the logo of the ANC in this House. [Interjections.] The “Minister” for that matter!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.] Hon members, order! [Interjections.] Hon members!
Hon member, you asked a question. I don’t know if I should respond to that if you behave like that.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! You put the question.
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Chair, I think we are equal in this House.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, can I rule on that matter? [Interjections.]
Ms H O MAXON: We must be treated equally here.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the problem?
Ms H O MAXON: We are equal in this House. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Magadzi, please continue with the debate. Please proceed. [Interjections.]
Ms D P MAGADZI: Thank you.
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Chair, ...
IsiZulu:
... siyakunxenxa ...
IsiXhosa:
... siyakucela ukuthi ube ...
English:
... neutral. You can’t let the hon Majodina ...
IsiXhosa:
... izolo usibize ngamahagu.
English:
Today ...
IsiXhosa:
... usibiza ngeziphukuphuku ...
English:
... and then you are mum on the matter. Please rule on that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I made a ruling on the matter. [Interjections.] I made a ruling on the matter.
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Chair, what is the ruling? Majodina must withdraw it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): The reason why you would not even have heard my ruling is because of your howling. You are no longer heckling now; you are howling. That is why you couldn’t hear the ruling.
I said, hon members, that I don’t have the benefit of having heard what you say the hon Majodina said. Therefore, allow me an opportunity to consult the Hansard and satisfy myself as to whether she said that. On the basis of that I will come back to that matter because I did not hear it.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, may I rise on a point of order in regard to your ruling? She hardly has a microphone; she might not even have spoken on the microphone. [Interjections.] Therefore, the issue of the Hansard might not even arise.
Please would you verify with her under oath in this House as to whether she did actually say that or not? [Interjections.] Even Premier Ace Magashule and the Deputy President will actually say whether they overhead her saying something like that. [Laughter.] Therefore, can she stand up and then you verify that, Chairperson? Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr M S MABIKA: Deputy Chair, I am tempted to ask the .../
Mr M S MABIKA: Deputy Chair, I am tempted to ask the .../
Mr M S MABIKA: Deputy Chair, I am tempted to ask the whereabouts of Speaker Mbete, because this meeting would have been over a long time ago if she had been here. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] I need an answer, because I also don’t know, Chairperson, if it is parliamentary for the Speaker to call other members cockroaches, and then be absent from here and say that she is apologetic. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no! [Interjections.] Hon members! Now, hon members, be honest with yourselves. Now you are degenerating. [Interjections.] Now we are degenerating. [Interjections.] I am pleading with you. Hon members, we have a very important debate here.
Mr N M KHUBISA: Chair, I have a point of order.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Can I hear the point of order?
Mr N M KHUBISA: I wonder whether we can get the Chairperson of the NCOP, because she put it quite succinctly in the morning that we could say anything under the sun. We are now picking which things under the sun. Where is she? She said we must pick anything ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members! Please let us allow the hon Magadzi to continue with the debate. [Interjections.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson! The procedure – maybe you don’t ... [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Even before I could you recognise you, ...
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can I please address you on a point of order?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Buthelezi had his hand up before you. May I recognise him before you?
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Chair, I have just received a press statement by the Speaker:
I have been thinking long and hard about the remarks I made at the ANC North West provincial conference on Saturday, 14 February 2015. I have concluded that my remarks, all offending statements I made, were inappropriate. The manner in which they came across was unfortunate and regrettable. I withdraw my remarks unreservedly. I apologise unconditionally, to South Africans, to Parliament and the Honourable Julius Malema for any hurt or harm I may have caused. Thank you.
[Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, lest we forget, we are still debating the state of the nation address. [Interjections.] Let us not forget that we are still debating the state of the nation address, and a member is standing here to present her speech. I allow the hon member to continue with her speech.
Mr B D JOSEPH: Deputy Chairperson, ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): On what point is that?
Mr B D JOSEPH: I rise on a point of order, Deputy Chairperson. I can see that you are already frustrated, so I beg you ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! No, no, no! No, no, no!
Mr B D JOSEPH: No, no, I can see.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, don’t think for me!
Mr B D JOSEPH: All right.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I am quite relaxed. Do not stress. [Interjections.]
Mr B D JOSEPH: All right. Then we are on the same level now if you are not stressed.
Is it parliamentary for a member of this House to refer to one of the previous speakers as the biggest cockroach in this House? [Laughter.] Is it parliamentary? I just want to look to my left at the back, and the member must rise and apologise to this House, Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Who said that, hon member?
Mr B D JOSEPH: The member can identify himself.
Mr S LUZIPO: I apologise, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): All right, fine. Thank you very much for doing that. [Interjections.]
Mr M S MBATHA: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to establish if the letter that was read by hon Buthelezi was signed.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, that is why I said we should confine ourselves to the business of the day.
Mr M S MBATHA: It is not signed.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Let us not deal with matters of letters now, because I didn’t hear hon Buthelezi referring to a letter. I heard him say there is a press statement.
Mr M S MBATHA: She was writing ... [Inaudible.] ... a letter with an apology, not a press statement.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): He referred to a press statement, not a letter. Hon Magadzi, please proceed. [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: Deputy Chair, you have not ruled on the matter of hon Angelina Motshekga. Please. [Interjections.] Hayi suka, Ginger! Suka!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Hon, member! Hon member! That one I heard now. That one I heard. Can you withdraw the name “Ginger”? I heard that one. [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: I am not referring to anyone. I cannot withdraw it. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! Hon member!
Ms T J MOKWELE: I am not referring to anyone, hon Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member!
Ms T J MOKWELE: I can ... [Interjections.] Who is “Ginger” in this House?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member!
Ms T J MOKWELE: Who is “Ginger”? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): The name, the name “Ginger” was ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: Who is “Ginger”? “Ginger” is just ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Listen to me! Listen! The name was used yesterday, and it referred to a particular member. There was an objection, and there was a withdrawal of the use of the name.
Ms T J MOKWELE: I said “Angelina”. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No! Hon member, ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: I said “Angie,” “Angelina”. Who is “Ginger”?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): And you went on ... [Interjections.]
Ms T J MOKWELE: That is why I am asking.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You went on to say, “Shut up, Ginger”.
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, I never said that.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): I heard it.
Ms T J MOKWELE: No, I never said that. [Interjections.] I won’t withdraw something that I didn’t say. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, please withdraw that word.
Ms T J MOKWELE: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, please withdraw ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: I withdraw it. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.
Afrikaans:
Mnr M A MATEBUS: Voorsitter, op ’n punt van orde, asseblief.
Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Mnr R J Tau): Wat is die punt van orde?
Mnr M A MATEBUS: Dit is heeltemal onaanvaarbaar. As ’n ANC lid opstaan en ’n naam uitroep, sê u dat u nie gehoor het nie, maar as ’n opposisielid dit doen, het u dit gehoor en moet dit onttrek word. Dis baie onregverdig.
Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Mnr R J Tau): Dit gaan goed wees as ek dit hoor, maar as ek dit nie gehoor het nie, het ek dit nie gehoor nie. En wat ek gehoor het, sou ek gehoor het. [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Chair.
Afrikaans:
Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Mnr R J Tau): Dis waarom ek gesê het dat ek hierdie een gehoor het.
English:
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Yes, hon member.
Mr J S MALEMA: I want to check. What is the procedure of changing the Chair because I think hon Thoko Didiza must take over now. [Interjections.] Can we get hon Thoko to chair the meeting?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Malema, please take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon Magadzi, please proceed with the debate.
Mr D P MAGADZI
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
Ms D P MAGADZI: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. President of the Republic of South Africa, hon Jacob Zuma, ...
Ms T J MOKWELE: Hon Deputy Chair, where is your ruling on the matter of hon Angelina Motshekga? I am still waiting for the ruling, please! [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, I have said it, and I even said it yesterday, that as members it is acceptable that we only come into the House without the regalia of our political parties. [Interjections.] Let us not even entertain that idea. [Interjections.] Hon Magadzi, please proceed with the debate.
Ms D P MAGADZI: Thank you very much. President of the Republic of South Africa, hon Jacob Zuma; Deputy President of the Republic, Mr Ramaphosa; and members of this august House, ...
Sesotho:
... bahaeso, maAfrika Borwa, ke a le dumedisa.
English:
As we celebrate the 25th anniversary of the unbanning of the ANC and the release of Nelson Mandela this month, we do so by recommitting ourselves to the values aspired to by Tata Mandela and the ANC. We also do so by reminding ourselves of the words and the works of this glorious icon. Tata Mandela once said:
I am fundamentally an optimist. Whether that comes from nature or nurture, I cannot say. Part of being optimistic is keeping one’s head pointed toward the sun, one’s feet moving forward.
Sesotho:
Rona, re tswela pele bahaeso re a sebetsa.
English:
We are taking South Africa forward; with our feet on the ground and our “heads pointed toward the sun”.
The Reconstruction and Development Programme, as adopted towards the advent of the 1994 national elections, serves as a basic policy and guideline that we should follow and always remember. It says we must meet basic needs, develop human resources, build the economy of the country, democratise the state, and implement the Reconstruction and Development Programme. The ANC identified the above before it even went into Parliament, and before it even knew that there would be a democratic country.
The importance of highlighting these RDP principles lies precisely in the fact that public transport is the heartbeat of our economy. It focuses on developing efficient and effective public transport systems that are reliable, safe and convenient. It also highlights the importance of an integrated taxi industry, bus services, and air and rail transport, in order to improve our socioeconomic conditions in the land.
The National Development Plan also ...
Setswana:
... e hatella seo tokomane ya RDP e se buang.
English:
This is a visionary document by the ANC government. It also recognises the integration of public transport infrastructure, and public transport that flows smoothly, and is reliable and safe. South Africa needs to invest in this network so that the infrastructure is able to support the country’s economy in the medium and long term as we move forward.
Economic infrastructure is a precondition for basic services such as public transport, and it needs to be robust and extensive enough to meet industrial and commercial needs.
The development of transport infrastructure will also contribute to much needed jobs. It will furthermore contribute to the growing economy, and build capacity and human resources, as has been outlined in the RDP. We applaud this visionary leadership, brought about by the President of the Republic, as a noble idea. The plan further requires us to intensify infrastructure development, especially in the rural areas.
The policy framework of the National Transport Master Plan speaks to a number of things, such as land transport use, integrated transport, and the physical environment. There are also a number of things which, when you plan, you must plan for for now, but also plan for for the future. You should, moreover, be able to analyse them and, more seriously, execute the plans.
The challenges of intermodal transport are well known to many of us in this House. They are: poor planning and management, poor access to the modes of transport, especially in our rural areas and the townships, and lack of finances. These are the things that we still have to discuss. We have to be robust and honest regarding how we are going to deal with them, particularly funding. The transport sector is a pivotal area within which we must be able to unleash the potential of the economy of the Republic.
The three spheres of government are working together in ensuring that there is integrated transport and land-use planning. The major issue that we will make sure that we deal with is funding.
As we develop our new roads and rail lines, and modernise the rolling stock, there is a need that we look forward and make sure that this reaches the hearts and minds of the people of the Republic.
Government, especially municipalities, are faced with the mammoth task of the maintenance of assets, particularly roads, which are full of potholes. The upgrading of gravel roads to tarred roads is what many of our communities are yearning for. Progress in this regard has been made.
We applaud the ANC government, which has been able to develop the rural areas, and in particular the bridges there. I am reminded of the segwaigwai that was in the Sekhukhune district of Limpopo province. It was used to cross the Olifants River, but it is now a thing of the past. [Applause.] Hon members, this has changed the people’s lives. The lives of many of the people in that area have improved socioeconomically. This is because you can say that their destination, their travelling time and, of course, their safety are now good.
IsiZulu:
Siyaqhubeka!
English:
The “killer road” between Pretoria and KwaMhlanga, affectionately known as the Moloto road, will be a thing of the past, as there has been interaction between the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa and SA National Roads Agency Limited in order to make sure that they develop the rail and road infrastructure there. [Applause.] This will reduce travel time and it will also reduce the carnage, as has been outlined by the National Development Plan. [Interjections.]
We applaud the government in regard to the public transport intermodal systems, as seen in Gauteng province and the Western Cape. The revitalisation of both rail and bus stations in order for them to become modern intermodal infrastructure facilities is very exciting. When you go to Park Station you can really feel that this is what we mean when we talk about state-of-the-art infrastructure. [Applause.]
Critical to our people is that they are no longer dehumanised by what we used to see during the apartheid era. These systems are user-friendly.
The fact that our people travel long distances is one of the things that we need to look into. As we do our integrated spatial planning, we must make sure that we bring residential houses closer to where our people are, which will assist them to save money and also to save on transport.
Rail transport is the backbone of transport in the Republic and therefore modernisation is critical. Within the vision of 2050, Prasa will be able to create jobs. It has already started to revitalise the signalising system and the rolling stock, and to refurbish and extend the rail system. The strategy will form part of meeting the countrywide travel demands, based on the needs of our people. We are happy that our disadvantaged people will be able to have access. Jobs will be created.
Let me indicate that the plan by Prasa and the Department of Transport is focusing on the rail plan in Limpopo; the N8 Rail Development Corridor in the Free State, which will link Kimberley, Thaba Nchu and Maseru; the possibility of linking Kimberley in the Northern Cape with Mahikeng in the North West; Queenstown to Umtata; Baralink in Gauteng; Motherwell in the Eastern Cape ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr M A PLOUAMMA
Mr D P MAGADZI
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Chair, hon President, hon Deputy President and hon members, I greet you. Hon President, your state of the nation address was a mockery and a true demise of honour and integrity. We truly miss those leaders who used to inspire us, like former President Nelson Mandela and former President Thabo Mbeki. [Interjections.]
When we look into our conscience, we find you are guilty as charged. You have become a liability. You are presiding over a corrupt state. You have created a situation of survival of the fittest. There is no good story to tell – it’s just a nightmare. [Interjections.]
We are governed by manipulators, swindlers, celebrated liars, and yes men and women who care for their political stomach.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, did I hear you saying “celebrated liars”?
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I said so, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You said so? Please withdraw the word “liars”.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: I withdraw it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Chair, this country is missing an historical opportunity ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Deputy Chair, he said, “swindlers”. He didn’t only say, “liars”. He must withdraw that!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Did he say, “swindlers” as well?
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Yes, he did.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Deputy Chair, it’s ... [Interjections.] All right, I withdraw it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much.
Mr M A PLOUAMMA: Hon Deputy Chair, this country is losing an historical opportunity to move forward by actually allowing a man of quality, a man of character, a man of virtue to lead us. What we have in our President is a compromised man. We can love him because we want to protect our foods, but at the end of the day generations to come will not forgive us for not removing the President of this country. Actually we were expecting him to resign yesterday. It could have been a piece good news for him to resign. [Interjections.]
We will not be surprised if we wake up one morning and we are told that Guptas have bought this country, and we are all tenants! [Laughter.] [Applause.] Hon members, this is our country and we must defend it at all costs. We should not buy each other’s goodwill. We should tell the truth even if it hurts.
The hon President of this country is not fit to rule. He must just pack his bags and leave this Parliament. [Laughter.] We can’t wait for the day when we can say, “the former President of this country, President Zuma”. That day must come as quickly as possible.
This country is a very promising country that can serve as an example to this continent and the world as a whole. The only mistake that we are making is that the ANC is forgetting that having fought for liberation doesn’t mean you have a licence to make mistakes or to give us a President who doesn’t even care about the future of our children. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr L B GAEHLER
Mr M A PLOUAMMA
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon President, hon Deputy President and hon members, whilst we welcome the Statistics SA report on unemployment figures for the last quarter of 2014, the fact remains that the unemployment rate increased from 23% in June 2009 to 24,5% at the end of 2014. We still have more than 8 million people without jobs.
We must be cautious, however, as the fact is that some of the 203 000 jobs created during the fourth quarter were jobs that were created driven by the seasonality associated with the festive season. In their nature they are casual jobs.
Statistics SA also reported that 20% of the South African population fell below the poverty line in 2010, and this increased to 21,5% in 2014. More South Africans are ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, can you just hold on. There are hon members at the back who are making a noise, and have been distracting me. I can’t even hear what the speaker in front is saying. [Interjections.] Hon members, can we follow the debate and allow the speaker on the floor the opportunity to debate please? [Interjections.] Continue, hon member.
Mr L B GAEHLER: The performance of schools in quintiles 1 to 3, as well as the integration of early childhood development into the mainstream of the education system, requires urgent attention. The aftercare facilities content should be linked to the formal school curriculum.
The number of Grade 12 learners who gained university entrance has decreased from 172 000 in 2013 to 150 000 in 2014. As if that is not enough, many of those are unable to proceed with their education due to a lack of funds, coupled with the few available spaces in universities.
The slow, tardy pace of processing land claims, some of which are 17 years old, is a threat to development. Many socioeconomic development opportunities are at a standstill because claims are not processed with the speed they deserve. The fight against poverty and underdevelopment requires efficient and effective processing of land claims.
It is very clear that more has to be done to realise the objectives of the Fetsa Tlala Integrated Food Production Initiative. Funds allocated must be utilised and accounted for. Consistency between what is reported on paper and what is happening on the ground must be seen to take place through more aggressive monitoring and evaluation systems.
The success of the war against indlala [hunger] requires reliable market information, and access to markets, transport and storage facilities, amongst others. Co-ordination and collaboration between the different relevant departments, including different spheres of government, must be improved.
IsiXhosa:
Okokugqibela, kaloku bendileqa isiNgesi esi, ngoku ndohlukene naso. Mongameli, ingxaki ikhona kulo mba wamabango omhlaba. Masiyeke ukuziqhatha. Ukuba uya kweli cala laseMpuma Koloni uninzi lwamabango alukenziwa. Into ethethwa lisebe kukuba kukho iikomiti ezimbini kwaye abantu bayalwa ...
English:
... which is not true. It is our officials of the department who are creating two committees.
IsiXhosa:
Into esibethayo, kwakula maLungu ePalamente, amalungu ombutho wakho wezopolitiko, mhlekazi – yima sisi, yeka ukundingxolela – abanye bawo bafuna kwalo mhlaba ...
English:
... because it is prime land. So, we need to address this because it affects the poorest of the poor. Our people must not be greedy. If you are a politician, stick to what you are doing.
IsiXhosa:
Ncedani abantu abaya. Yekani ukuthi xa niphuma apha ngempelaveki nihambe niye kufuna laa mihlaba. Enkosi.
Mr B M MKONGI
Mr L B GAEHLER
Mr B M MKONGI: Thank you, hon House Chair. On Thursday, 12 February 2015, Mr President, you delivered the state of the nation address in this House. Before you could even commence with your speech, some broken men tried to break the Rules of this august House to satisfy their broken egos. After they broke away from this House on Thursday, they left the state of the nation address.
But they came back on Tuesday to lecture us about the characteristics of a broken man. [Interjections.] They suggested that you, Mr President, are a broken man, and that you have failed to implement the Freedom Charter and lead our struggle for economic freedom.
Ironically, Mr President, these broken young black males were supported by another broken man, a general from the Eastern Cape province - who happens to be the leader of the UDM.
Hon members, allow me to narrate the tale of two broken young black males in this House. These broken minds say ours is a broken society. It is a broken country with a broken constitutional democracy. They are so broken, Mr President, that they say all kinds of broken things in this House ... [Interjections.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: Does the member have any proof of what he’s saying, or is it just hearsay? Has he got proof ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is really not a point of order; it’s a point for debate. Hon Mkongi, continue please.
Mr B M MKONGI: Yes, House Chairperson. Sizowuzw’ umoya!
They participate in a democratically constituted House. They participate in the periodic democratic elections in this country. All these elections have been declared free and fair. When they are defeated in this Parliament, they run to our functional and capable judicial system. The principle of the separation of powers is alive in this country.
They say all these things because their only mission in this Parliament is to attack and break the personality of the head of state. [Applause.] They are obsessed with one man, President Jacob Zuma. They are unable to provide alternatives for our people, because they preside over broken organisations. They are playing the man instead of the ball. [Interjections.]
Let me climb on their bandwagon. Hon Mmusi Maimane, for example, is a broken young man with a broken heart, Mr President. [Interjections.] He is a broken black man because he’s swimming in the broken blue sea of white conservative males. [Applause.] He is utterly undermined. He does not have the support of his party, especially the conservative white males. [Interjections.]
Mr President, we saw him breaking down in this House after his instruction to the DA caucus was broken down and defied by his colleagues. [Applause.] He is actually a troubled man. The way he was so broken here, he even forgot to vote for a motion of no confidence against the Speaker on that day.
The extent of their brokenness is that even their minds are broken. There is no systematic co-ordination between their minds and their mouths. There is no proper co-ordination between the thinking and the saying.
In the final analysis, Mr President, you are not broken. You are stronger and you are a solid man – more than ever before.
HON MEMBERS: Yes! [Applause.]
Mr B M MKONGI: Mr President, we are saying, “Don’t be shaken!”
Ms H O MAXON: Chairperson, I have a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mkongi, take your seat please.
Mr B M MKONGI: “The ANC loves you ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr B M MKONGI: ... and it supports you one hundred per cent.”
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mkongi, take your seat please. Why are you rising, hon member?
Ms H O MAXON: Hon Chair, I’m checking if the hon broken member is prepared to take a question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mkongi, are you prepared to take a question?
Mr B M MKONGI: I don’t have the time, Chief. [Inaudible.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): He is not prepared to take a question.
Mr B M MKONGI: I’m busy here.
Ms H O MAXON: Oh, after he is broken. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mkongi, you are not prepared to take a question. [Interjections.] Proceed with your speech please.
Mr B M MKONGI: Ladies and gentlemen, President Jacob Zuma, in his state of the nation address on 12 February 2015, declared this year as “the Year of the Freedom Charter and Unity in Action to Advance Economic Freedom”.
Another broken soul stood up here at this podium yesterday to showcase his short memory of the history of South Africa. He believes that the Freedom Charter is not the brainchild of the ANC; that the struggle for economic freedom in our lifetime only began at the National Conference of the ANC Youth League in 2008; and that when they were expelled from the movement they left with that struggle. What a hypocrite!
The facts of history are that the struggle for economic freedom in South Africa began more than 300 years ago. [Applause.] The chiefs and kings of the African indigenous people of this land are the custodians of the struggle for economic freedom. [Applause.] To claim the custodianship of the struggle for economic freedom is naked opportunism and ideological delinquency. It should not be left unchallenged. It should be defeated. [Applause.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, I have a point of order. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order! Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair, we said the conceptualisation of the struggle ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... for economic freedom ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: ... started in 2008, not it’s history. [Interjections.] The conceptualisation of it as economic freedom ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Ndlozi, that’s not a point of order. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon Mkongi, just wait.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: That is just to refresh your memory.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mkongi, take your seat please.
Hon members, may I request that when a point of order is taken, you allow an opportunity for the presiding officer to hear what the point of order is, because we are expected to make a ruling. If you interject to the extent that I cannot hear what the hon member is saying, it will be impossible to rule on that point of order. Let’s listen to one another please. Continue, hon member.
Mr B M MKONGI: Chairperson, I will ask a question. Waar was jy ... [Laughter.] ... when Nelson Mandela made his famous Rivonia Trial speech, ... [Interjections.] ... emphasising that:
The realization of the Freedom Charter would open up free fields for a prosperous African population ...
That speech calls for redistribution of the economy and land, including white “monopoly industry, because big monopolies are owned by one race only” ... without redistribution of the economy and land “racial domination would be perpetuated despite the spread of political power.”
[Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Mkongi, take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon members, there’s another point of order, but may I remind hon members that we should not use points of order to disrupt the speech of the hon member on the floor. It must be a valid point of order, not something that is debatable. Yes, hon member.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon House Chairperson, it was ruled earlier today that members may not point their fingers. This is exactly what the hon member did right now when he was talking, and he varied it from three fingers to five fingers to one finger. It is out of order. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon member. Your point has been made. [Interjections.] Your point has been made. Hon members, let’s not make unnecessary gestures and please address the Chairperson of the session as well. Continue, hon member.
Mr B M MKONGI: This is the reflection of a broken heart. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, this is the actual contextualisation of the relationship between political education and political freedom. Therefore, it is a fallacy to suggest that the struggle for economic freedom in this country was conceived by people who were born only in the late 1970s and 1980s.
It is in this regard that I would like to caution these broken young black males not to use dialectics as an excuse for not understanding history. [Interjections.] When conducting any legitimate revolution, you use both historical and dialectical materialism. [Applause.]
Mr President, I submit to you that revolutionary consciousness cannot be reduced to recklessness. Great revolutions were led by great individuals with revolutionary discipline. Discipline is the mother of all successful revolutions across the world. [Applause.]
Equally, to be rude and disrespectful can’t be praised as being radical. In the same vein, rascalism can’t be robustness. [Applause.] Lastly, President, assertiveness can’t be reduced or equated to arrogance and misbehaviour. That behaviour in the conduct of a revolution is not revolutionary; instead it is counter-revolutionary. [Applause.]
Successful revolutions across the world were conducted with revolutionary discipline. There is no revolution anywhere in the world that was won by lumpen leadership. [Applause.] Lumpen people have miscarried many noble revolutions in the history of humankind. The only capable vehicle for the fight for economic freedom in this country is the revolutionary alliance capable of leading the broad forces of the National Democratic Revolution under the ANC. [Applause.]
You know, comrades, a protest movement – a Maoist, Sankarist, Marxist, Fanonist, Bikoist, Sobukweist, Trotskyist, Leninist scrambled egg or sushi ideological confusion ... [Applause.] ... conceived at shebeens and taverns – will never work in South Africa, and can’t compete with the peoples’ movement, the ANC. [Interjections.] Sizele ukurhabulisa apha maqabane. [Applause.]
Waar was jy [Where were you] when Anton Lembede, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr B M MKONGI: ... Nelson Mandela, Walter Sisulu ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that question won’t be answered because your time has expired.
Mr B M MKONGI: Waar was jy? [Where were you?] Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Order! Order, hon members!
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA
Mr B M MKONGI
IsiXhosa:
Nks Z B N BALINDLELA: Sihlalo obekekileyo, ndiza namhlanje kule Ndlu ndize kubalisa ibali labahlali bakwaKhalimashe eTsomo, eXholobe. Abo bahlali bandimema ngomhla wesi-3 kwinyanga ephelileyo yoMqungu. Ibali laba bahlali libali elibuhlungu kodwa liqhelekile kuye wonke umntu kwaye aliphelelanga phaya kuphela likho kuzo zonke iindawo esihlala kuzo.
Aba bahlali basentlungwini yokuhamba umgama omde ongange-10 leekhilomitha ukusuka emakhayeni abo. Abafazi abakhulelweyo bakhweliswa emahasheni xa bebalekiselwa esibhedlele ukuya kubeleka.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Hon members, I really find it very difficult to pick up the interpretation. Interjections are allowed, but should not drown out the speech of another hon member. Continue hon member.
IsiXhosa:
Nks Z B N BALINDLELA: Abantwana abakwazi ukuya esikolweni de babe neminyaka elishumi ngenxa yomgama omde ohanjwayo. Abahali babathwala ngeezitretshi abantu babo abaswelekileyo. Iinkonzo zange zaqalisa ukubakho. Ngoko ke, xa uMongameli woMzantsi Afrika emane esithi kuthi ...
English:
... every drop of water counts ... [Interjections.] ...
IsiXhosa:
... asikwazi ukucinga ngokuqinisekileyo ukuba abantu bayawafumana kusini na amanzi, ngenxa yemeko enzima yawo.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, as I have repeatedly stated, interjections are allowed, but do not drown out the member. She has the right to make a speech and a right to be heard. Continue hon member.
IsiXhosa:
Nks Z B N BALINDLELA: Ikomoti kamasipala yaseMahlathi, ikwazile ukuchitha imali engange zigidi-gidi ezisi-7.
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Balindlela, will you take your seat please?
Mr J M MTHEMBU: Can the former Premier ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Balindlela, will you take your seat please? Thank you. Hon member, why are you rising?
Mr J M MTHEMBU: Can the former Premier of the Eastern Cape take a question?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, are you prepared to take a question?
IsiXhosa:
Nks Z B N BALINDLELA: Ndakugqiba Sihlalo. Abantu baseMahlathi bayasokola bathi xa bebuza kooceba babo kuthiwe baza kulungiselelwa iindlela, bafakelwe umbane namanzi.
English:
However, these villagers do not need more promises; they need action. [Interjections.] They want to make sure that life is better for them. An amount of R27 million of their Municipal Infrastructure Grant has not been used. [Interjections.] This is a grant which is meant to ensure at least a basic level of service to all South Africans. This is very disgraceful.
We can all agree that we have made great strides since 1994. Unfortunately, we have regressed now and many areas are struggling. Those who received subsidised houses are often left with poor quality structures because of tenderpreneurs who have no interest in building lasting homes for people who have waited for so long. [Interjections.] A good example is the toilet city ...
IsiXhosa:
... ekwilali eseBhofolo.
English:
It has been very hard kubantu baseBhofolo. [for the people of Fort Beaufort.]
IsiXhosa:
Loo lali kuthiwa xa ibizwa yilali enezindlu zangasese kuphela. Ayinazo izindlu, abantu bahleli balindile.
English:
Unlike the Western Cape government, ... [Interjections.] ... other provinces are slow to give homeowners their title deeds, condemning them to a future without precious capital that is rightly theirs. [Interjections.]
The ANC does not have the political will to address our biggest service delivery failures. Across the country, in all the ANC-run provinces, South Africans are being subjected to a public health care system that is crumbling. [Interjections.] The problems are plentiful – medicine shortages, dilapidated buildings and critical vacancies. [Interjections.]
The near collapse of the Free State’s health care system is a prime example of the ANC’s mismanagement. [Interjections.] My colleague, Dr Wilmot James, rightly called it “a moral failure”. Yet, instead of tackling the culture of unaccountability and mismanagement, the provincial government thought the best way to solve the crisis was to fly 12 000 km over the Atlantic Ocean to the beaches of Cuba at the taxpayers’ expense. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
Mrs Z B N BALINDLELA
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: House Chairperson, ...
Sepedi:
... Mopresidente wa Repabliki ya Afrika Borwa le motlatši wa gago, Matona a Ntlo ye, bahlomphegi ka kakaretšo go ya ka kgati, ke ya le dumediša.
English:
For starters, civilised people the world over respect the highest office in their land.
An HON MEMBER: No, we don’t!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: This is irrespective of whether they like the incumbent or not.
Last Thursday some of us had to explain to our guests why some hon members in this august House remained seated when the entourage of the President entered the Chamber. [Interjections.]
Mr President, I will not be surprised if after your second term you get canonised. [Interjections.] This is because the trend has been that some of the people on this side seem to have a very short memory. During the first administration there was a lot of noise about Sarafina, Sarafina, Sarafina. During the second administration there was a lot of noise about beetroot and HIV. [Interjections.] Now this time there is also a noise – of a special kind.
No dog will bark at a stationary car. [Interjections.] There will be this noise, because we are a government at work. [Applause.]
After all these noises, they say the first administration was the best. They say that the second administration improved the economy. I won’t be surprised, Mr President, if your compliment comes soon. They may even canonise you, because the trend has been that you vilify the incumbent, and you praise the one who has gone out. [Interjections.]
Sepedi:
Sephiri se utologile. Bale ba DA ba fora naga kamoka ba re moo bona ba bušago dilo di sepela gabotse ...
English:
... until hon Patel took this podium.
Sepedi:
Ka mo, maabane ditshetlo di be di hwile le melodi ...
English:
You could hear a pin drop ...
Sepedi:
... ka gobane sephiri se be se utolotšwe. Mohl Patel o a ba tsebela gomme o re boditše - go ya polelo ya mohl Patel nna ke re, ka morago ga thaba ya Leolo, lefelong leo ke kgethetšwego go le emela, ...
English:
... we are already halfway as far as 2016 is concerned. [Interjections.]
Sepedi:
Ke makatšwa ke gore ka thoko ye dikekišo tša boObama di rutwa bo mang ka gobane ngwana o tlile mo a re direla mehlolo a ba a re bitša le “disisi”. Kekišo ye ya ga Obama e reng e sa aparele batho kamoka - ge batho ba ba tseba demokrasi go re phala? Re ithuta letšatši ka letšatši. Lehono ke ithutile gore ...
English:
... it takes a young man, a young person, to communicate with other young people. When the young lion or the young person was at this podium it was quiet over there. [Applause.]
Sepedi:
Mogamolo o be o tsena mola thoko yela.
English:
Now we have discovered the language that the hon members on that side understand the best.
Sepedi:
Moetapele wa DA ka fa, o swana le ba ba laetšago gore ba fapogela ka go la goja e le gore ba tepogela ka go la nngele. Ge a ema podiamong maabane, gare ga ditaba tša gagwe kamoka o boletše gore re swanetše go bontšha ...
English:
... “mutual respect”. “Mutual respect.”
Sepedi:
Ka theetša, ka re aowa, a makaone matšatši a a hlaba. Ge a tšwela pele mo podiamong ye a thoma go bolela bošaedi ka Presidente ya Repapliki, a re “he is a broken man” ke leboga moswa [young lion] yo a re arabetšego.
English:
For the people of South Africa, I think the “Pay back the money campaign” of the EFF – as hon Ndlozi acknowledged, there is no plagiarism about it – must be unpacked and be seen for what it really is.
The information before the people of South Africa is, firstly, that there may be features that are not security-related at the President’s house. [Interjections.] Am I protected, House Chair?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Continue, hon member.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Secondly, those features have to be identified or, if they have been identified, have to be costed. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thirdly, the information before the people of South Africa is also that prices were inflated. [Interjections.] We need still ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Also, the information before the people of South Africa is that a process is unfolding to tell us by how much they were inflated, and by whom. [Applause.]
Fourthly, when the above are known – when this information is known – then and then only will invoices be directed to the people concerned. [Interjections.] I believe that the principle of invoices obtains even in the business of the woodwork world. [Laughter.]
Therefore, this chorus is like what Shakespeare wrote in one of his books, Macbeth:
It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
[Applause.]
I also have a problem with the fourth estate. [Interjections.] I have a problem with the fourth estate, Chairperson. In this House I listened to comments about Guptas, Guptas, Guptas yesterday. [Interjections.] My little research says they came to this country before the democratic government came into being. Their papers were not processed by us. Further research says they seem, in fact they are, contributing positively to the economy of this country. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Buthelezi, were you rising on a point of order?
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: No, Sir. I was only going to express my concern about the noise, because you couldn’t hear the hon member due to the noise here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon members. Hon members, ...
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: We expect ... [Inaudible.] ... howl up here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): ... let’s allow the hon Buthelezi to make his point.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: I mean, members may heckle – it’s accepted in all democratic institutions - but not howling. [Interjections.] Not howling. [Interjections.] Not howling.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Buthelezi. Hon members, may I just repeat what I said earlier? While ... [Interjections.] Order! While members are delivering their speeches, of course interjections are allowed, but you may not drown out the speaker to the extent that other members, or I sitting here in front, cannot even hear what is being said. Let us be fair to one another and allow one another – it’s part of democracy – the opportunity for different views to be expressed and for others to listen to them, although they may hold different views.
Mr M WATERS
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the Chief Whip of the NCOP is trying to defend the indefensible when she says that maybe there were no security features at Nkandla. Maybe – I mean, really, who is she trying to kid?
Let me just read a few of those items from the Nkandla report. The chicken run: Is that a security feature?
HON MEMBERS: No!
Mr M WATERS: The pool: Is that a security feature?
HON MEMBERS: No!
Mr M WATERS: The auditorium: Is that a security feature?
HON MEMBERS: No!
Mr M WATERS: Thank you. So, you can start with that, hon Chief Whip, and get the President to pay back the money. [Interjections.]
The other issue that the Chief Whip raised was the Guptas, saying they are contributing to the economy. [Interjections.] But the fact is that we say all foreigners here contribute to the economy, and that is why it’s so absurd when the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries repeats what the President said about the Freedom Charter. He said that the land belongs to all who live in South Africa, but not to foreigners. Legal foreigners in this country are no longer allowed to buy land and invest in this country. [Interjections.] So you have got to make your mind up, ANC. Do you support the Freedom Charter, where land belongs to everybody, or not? Stop cherry-picking. [Interjections.]
The hon Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, if I can remind him, was fired from his job as a police commissioner. He used taxpayers’ money to lease buildings at prices that were later found to be overinflated and bloated, just like his utterances in this House today. [Laughter.]
Minister Patel, yesterday you mentioned unemployment figures in the Western Cape. However, what you didn’t mention was that you were using the narrow definition of unemployment. You are quite correct – Limpopo does have the lowest unemployment rate, of 15,9%, when you look at the narrow definition. However, when you include the number of people who have simply given up looking for work, this number for unemployment jumps to 43,4%. [Interjections.] Nearly one out of every two people in Limpopo is unemployed or has given up. [Interjections.] The broad unemployment rate in the Western Cape is 23,6%, a massive 12,5% lower than the national average. In the Western Cape we have 22 000 discouraged workseekers, compared to 616 000 in KwaZulu-Natal; 403 000 in Limpopo and 379 000 in Gauteng. [Interjections.]
Hon Mafu, you came here with nothing new, except for stealing quotes from other parties, such as “a broken province” and “Pay back the money”. You also insulted the leader of the DA by comparing her to a monkey. Your party has run out of ideas, and you have been in power for 21 years and it is time for you to go. [Interjections.]
Hon Rantho, you said that load shedding is not a crisis. If it weren’t such a serious issue, I would have thought I was in Comedy Hour or watching the Chester Missing show - which you should apply to for a job. You, like your party, are totally out of touch with reality, because load shedding affects peoples’ lives on a daily basis. It is affecting our economy. It is affecting jobs. When people go to work on a daily basis, not knowing if they are going to be laid off because of load shedding, and you say it is not a crisis, you are out of touch! [Interjections.]
I must say that the Minister of Public Enterprises put a great spin on load shedding. However, if you were doing such a great job, why did the ANC take Eskom away from you and give it to the Deputy President? And it is not the first time you have lost something, hon Minister. You lost the Western Cape province to the DA in 2009 as well. [Applause.]
We agree with you, we should be switching off geysers and other appliances when we don’t need them. But charity begins at home, so let’s start with Nkandla. I hope that you are going to make sure that the air conditioning and the chicken coop are switched off; that the fridge at the spaza shop is switched off; that the geysers in the homes are switched off; and that the pump in the pool is switched off. [Interjections.]
Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, when you came up here and said that women and children can be safe in the streets of South Africa, you obviously didn’t know that 62 000 cases of sexual assault were reported last year.
Furthermore, it was absurd for you to even suggest, never mind reiterate in this House, that you think that the Defence Force can be brought in here, into Parliament. We have gone from being a police state to being a military state in just one week.
Last Thursday we saw images of people being water cannoned outside Parliament. We saw the arrest of law-abiding citizens, including Members of Parliament. We saw the ANC’s attempt to jam cellphone signals in that room up there. We saw the use of armed riot police in Parliament, deceivingly disguised as parliamentary protection services, and we saw the forced removal of MPs from this Chamber. These images sent shivers down the spines of millions of South Africans watching. On Sunday we even saw that some MPs had been used as target practice by the police. Today we are being intimidated by scores of riot police standing outside this very Chamber. [Interjections.]
The question we have to ask ourselves is this. How could we fall so far and so fast? To the Speaker of Parliament I want to say: Seven and half years ago I accused you of covering up for a thief, and today you are still covering up for a thief. [Interjections.] And that is why we have fallen, or how we have fallen so far.
Former President Mandela gave us a dream of a rainbow nation, but today we sit with a nightmare. I thank you very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING
Mr M WATERS
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, hon President, hon Deputy President and hon members, allow me to start where I was not intending to start. [Interjections.] I want to read a letter. I want to read a letter:
Thank you so much for your generous donation ... to the Democratic Alliance.
Your financial contribution helped us achieve our three key objectives in the recent election: keeping the ANC below a two thirds majority and significantly consolidating our position as the official opposition party.
Our support has increased from the 2004 election. This means the DA grew by 34.7 percent. You helped us to achieve this historic milestone.
Thank you for your support ... Thank you for standing up for strong opposition and for a positive influence.
Yours sincerely,
Helen Zille
DA Leader
This was addressed to Mr Atul Gupta of Sahara Computers. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chairperson, I want to say to the President, “We have a problem.” Firstly, we have an opposition here, including the main opposition – just the numbers that are sitting here – but there is no honour in this party. [Interjections.] This is hypocritical – this letter shows us that in the extreme.
Secondly, there is another problem we have. I am exasperated. There is no quality in the arguments they are making. All the arguments they have made have been personalised attacks on the President. [Applause.] Just one example will illustrate this. Bhanga, I don’t know, when you speak, who you are speaking for.
Ms A STEYN: I have a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, will you take your seat please? What’s your point of order, hon member?
Ms A STEYN: The member must be referred to as “hon Bhanga”.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, it should be the “hon Bhanga”.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: My apologies. Hon Bhanga, ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: ... when you speak, I do not know who you are speaking for ...
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: ... because you saw party-hopping like nobody’s business. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister! Hon Minister, let me just take that point of order from the hon member. Hon Minister, please!
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EPHAKEME: Mus’ ukungiphazamisa; ngiyeke ngethule inkulumo yami. Unjengegwala.
English:
Mr M Q NDLOZI: You see, he is doing this to me!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, let us not point at one another. If you want to put a point of order, you address the Chairperson. Let’s refrain from pointing at one another.
Mr M Q NDLOZI: But, Chair, I was reacting because he did this to me.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): What is your point, hon member?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Okay, I thought we could excuse the hon Minister from sitting down, taking ...
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Yes! Sure. Sure.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No. No, the hon Minister ...
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: There is no difference. Yes! Yes!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No! The hon Minister will sit down. [Laughter.] Continue, hon Minister. I think, hon Ndlozi, you can discuss the issue of height outside of the Chamber. It’s not on the agenda for today. Continue, hon Minister.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EPHAKEME: Ilungu elihloniphekile uBhanga, uma lishelwa nje liyaqoma. Insizwa iqoma ize iquleke impela nje! Angimazi zingaki izinhlangano zepolitiki asezihambile. Asisazi ukuthi ukhulumela bani. I-Agang – ...
English:
... you know, I don’t want to waste my oxygen on Agang. [Laughter.]
The hon Kohler disclosed a secret, that when the DA were marching here, one member was arrested and that member was a member of the legislature. He was the only one, and he was the only white marcher ...
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: ... for the DA outside here.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Hon Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: The rest were black. However, the benches here are white. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister. Hon Minister, take your seat please. Take your seat. Yes, hon member. Why are you rising?
Mr J J MCGLUWA: I would like to know whether the former Inkatha Freedom Party member will take a question. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister! Hon Minister, before you respond, ... [Interjections.] Hon Minister, before you respond, ... [Interjections.] Before you respond, let me just take the point of the hon Buthelezi.
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Chairperson, I want to say to the hon member, I take the strongest exception because he is saying this to the Minister as a form of derogation of the IFP. I take strong exception to that. Whether the Minister was a member or not is beside the point, but to use my party as a form of derogation is something I strong exception to. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members! Hon members, earlier ... [Interjections.] Order! Earlier I requested hon members not to rise on frivolous points of order, simply to disrupt the speech of another member. Let’s refrain from doing so, and give the hon member at the podium an opportunity, a fair chance, to deliver his input into the debate. Continue, hon Minister.
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: Mr Chairperson, on a point of personal clarification: ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No! [Interjections.]
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: ... As the member that was arrested, ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Order!
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: As the member of this legislature that was arrested while the Minister’s signal was ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order! Hon member, take your seat. I have not recognised you! Will you take your seat please?
Mr M H REDELINGHUYS: You’ve recognised me, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat please! Continue, hon Minister. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Yes. I agree with you Sokalisa; there is nothing wrong. I was never a member of Inkatha, but there is nothing wrong with those who were members of Inkatha who are now in the ANC. [Applause.]
We get accused of cadre deployment. They don’t even realise, these hon members, what they are telling us. The hon Greyling comes here and tells us he is going because he has been appointed by Mayor De Lille as the new Director of Trade and Investment in the City of Cape Town. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION: Not only that, ... [Interjections.] Not only that, but he says: “I am going but I’ll come back.” So it’s deployment. He is going to go to the City of Cape Town and will come back as DA as well. So, it’s fine for the DA to actually do cadre deployment, but it’s not okay for the ANC. [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Hhayi ngeke, Sisi! Lungu elihloniphekile uBalindlela, awukwazi ukuzosigxekela izinto owahluleka ukuzenza wena usengundunankulu! Hhayi! [Uhleko.] [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
And President, as a member of your Cabinet, may I please plead with you, Msholozi. Never call us for a meeting at 4 am! Never call a Cabinet meeting at 4 am! Hon Balindlela used to do that! [Laughter.] And now it’s showing! How can you call us at 4 am?
Also, what I would like to say upfront is that the suggestion that the ANC wants to destroy Parliament, ... [Interjections.] ... wants to break Parliament, is ludicrous. The ANC, through struggle, gave birth to the structures of this democracy. [Applause.] The President and the ANC here have every reason to protect, strengthen and sustain these structures. The DA hogwash that the President and the ANC are destroying the structures that were given to by the sacrifices of generations of ANC cadres is ludicrous in the extreme.
That is why I say you are trying to provoke us. [Interjections.] You are saying no action must be taken to bring order here, because you are trying to provoke us. What do you want us to do? Do you want us to take the law into our own hands, so that you can turn around and say there is black-on-black violence, as you actually did in the past? We are not going to do that! [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Sikhethwe abanye abantu ukuthi sisebenze nabo, sinezwe esilibusayo, sinomsebenzi omningi osemahlombe ethu; angeke siyenze leyo nto!
English:
Hon Waters, don’t try and manipulate statistics. The statistics are Waters’. [Interjections.] Okay. To the President. You can’t refute that. You can’t refute the fact that there are 181 000 more unemployed people since Premier Zille came into office. That is a fact, and we are using the very same statistics that you want to use selectively. Please! That is why you have marginalised – it’s showing that you have marginalised – hon Wilmot James. We are no longer consulting him on statistics and other serious things, because you want him actually to be out of this.
We also want to say by the way, please never again wear black clothes here during the state of the nation address, ... [Interjections.] ... unless of course you were grieving for the end of white minority rule. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Also, I am a grandfather now. You know, I really thought that since Cape Town is now our premier film-making town, it was the shooting of another episode of the Dracula series. [Laughter.]
IsiZulu:
Siyacela bo sicelela izingane zethu nabazukulu, bazophupha kabi; sicela ukuthi ningaphinde nje niyigqoke le nto ebeniyigqokile! [Uhleko.] [Ihlombe.]
English:
What the President says here, we do. Let us illustrate with education. Hon van Damme, you say the president is talking about infrastructure. Why not? We have spoken a lot about education and it was crucial for the President to highlight the importance of education infrastructure.
It’s important as part of realising the vision of the .../
It’s important as part of realising the vision of the .../
It’s important as part of realising the vision of the Freedom Charter that, “The doors of learning and of culture shall be opened.”
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Chair, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, will you just take your seat, so that I can hear what the hon member has to say? Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr N S MATIASE: Earlier on there was a ruling that members should refrain from making gestures, pointing fingers and all of that. [Interjections.] Can you please rule on that, ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr N S MATIASE: ... that they should refrain from pointing fingers and making other gestures.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we expect hon members not to point at one another when they are making a point or anything. However, it is also part of the mannerisms in speaking of certain members to use their hands, as long as they are not pointing at other members, and as long as it is not done in a derogatory way. Continue hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Don’t worry. This is safer than umakalabha [helmet]. [Laughter.] A major ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: A major achievement ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: The importance of infrastructure is this, that we as the ANC government have been the victims of our own successes. We have grown the numbers everywhere faster than we have been able to build education infrastructure. [Applause.] That is what we are now turning to in a big way and, while we are not starting only now, the President had to emphasise this.
For instance, just to give you the successes, we tripled Grade R enrolments from 272 000 in 2002 to 813 044 in 2014. [Applause.] We virtually achieved the goal of universal primary education with 99,3% enrolments in 2013. We grew the technical and vocational education and training, TVET, college sector by 94% between 2010 and this year. University student headcount enrolments doubled between 1994 and this time around, and we have reached 1 million students. [Applause.]
In order to continue to expand, and also improve quality and the environment within which we provide education, we are focusing on infrastructure. We have been opening a school per week in the Eastern Cape. And you were saying, “That’s not going to happen”. We have done it! [Interjections.] We are building 12 new TVET college campuses and we have built three new universities. At the Sol Plaatje University and University of Mpumalanga, construction has started. [Applause.]
Over the past decade we have invested R13 billion in university infrastructure and R6 billion has been invested in all categories of infrastructure. A significant amount, more than R2,5 billion, has been allocated to historically disadvantaged institutions.
IsiZulu:
Siyaqhuba. Siyaqhuba Mongameli, siyasebenza. [Ihlombe.]
English:
We are a caring government. What we want to say though is, ...
IsiZulu:
... ukucela abantu bakithi ukuthi Usomqulu Wenkululeko uma uthi “Abantu bazobusa”.
English:
It also means that we must take responsibility for this infrastructure and protect it. The people themselves must protect the infrastructure.
IsiZulu:
Nanokuthi siyacela ukuthi noma ngabe iziphi izinkinga esinazo asingavimbi ukuthi izingane ziyofunda noma ziye esikoleni, sibhekane nalezo zinto.
English:
We have also invested in innovation and research. Over a five-year period, between 2008 and 2012, the publications output in higher education has increased significantly. Also, the announcement on 25 May 2012 that South Africa had won the bid to host the Square Kilometre Array radio telescope project was of massive scientific significance for South Africa.
Also, a highlight of the past five years has been the expansion of broadband connectivity to all the major campuses of tertiary educational institutions. Government’s wireless mesh network technology project has connected 190 schools in the Nkangala and Sekhukhune districts to increase Internet access. [Applause.]
IsiZulu:
UMongameli uma ezisho lezi zinto ukuthi zizokwenzeka, nazi ziyenzeka. Hambani niye ku-Wilmot James anisize nenze ucwaningo ukuthi uMongameli wathini ezinkulumweni zezwe ezine azethule ngaphambilini , nizobona ukuthi sekwenzakaleni manje ngoba siyaqhuba siwuhulumeni owenza izinto esizifunayo. [Ihlombe.]
English:
Let us just analyse what is going on here. You know, what is going on in this Parliament at the moment, which is not nice, is in essence an attack on majority rule. That is what it is.
On the DA, by the way, we grabbed it kicking and screaming as a democratic party and urged it to accept the idea of majority rule. White liberals in South Africa had always been opposed to majority rule. They told us that all they could do was to give a qualified franchise. In other words, those black people with Std 6 or a Junior Certificate would be the only ones who would be allowed to vote. This was another form of perpetuating white minority rule and white colonial rule in this country.
What are they trying to do now? It is a very clear strategy. They are trying to weave a story that when a black-led government takes over, it is inherently corrupt. [Interjections.] That is the narrative and it is not a new narrative – it comes from before 1994. We were told, “Look at what has happened north of the Limpopo when they took over.” It is the same narrative that is actually continuing. This whole matter of attacking the President is the same narrative, and it is a racist narrative about the inability of black people to lead. [Applause.] Some have characterised this correctly as an antimajoritarian liberal offensive. It is against majority rule. [Interjections.]
We are told that in this Parliament we must get a neutral Speaker, who is not from the ANC. By the way, on the media, sections of the media are an extension of the opposition. [Applause.] That is what they are. You know what they do? They do not go and do basic research. Go to the Western Cape legislature and all the municipalities that are controlled by the DA, and see who the Speakers there are. They are from the DA, but we must have a so-called neutral Speaker here! That is another attack on majority rule. The majority shall elect a Speaker in this House. [Applause.]
President, I was honoured under the leadership of the then Secretary-General of the ANC, who is now our Deputy President, to be part of the Codesa negotiations, initially in the SACP under the leadership of the late Comrade Joe Slovo. One of the things that we had to fight – you will remember this, Deputy President – was an attempt to craft a constitution where the minority would have power at the expense of the majority. This is a continuation of the same agenda.
What do you do? You challenge every decision that is taken for us in court, and actually try to approach every Chapter 9 institution to try to undermine majority rule. [Interjections.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair. .../
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair. .../
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, will you take your seat please? Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Chairperson, I would like to check when the Minister is going to deal with the most important argument that we have made on the Freedom Charter. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: We are debating the Freedom Charter.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Or don’t you have anything to say to us?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that’s not a point of order. I see that you have quite a bit that you want to discuss with the Minister. I think you must make an appointment to see him so that you can have your conversation. Hon Minister, please continue.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you, and I also offer to be your PhD supervisor as well. [Applause.] [Laughter.] But this anti ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
Kungcono ngoba uyafunda, uzofunda. No-Floyd uyiqedile i-Masters-degree yakhe nanoma ethathe iminyaka eyi-10 kodwa uyiqedile. [Uhleko.]
English:
Oh, it is “hon Shivambu” – my apologies. [Laughter.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair. [Interjections.] Hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Chairperson, on a point of order: If you go to the University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, you will find that I registered for the master’s degree in 2013 and in 2014 I graduated. So, it was within one year and it was not 10 years. There’s a difference between 10 years and one year.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Shivambu, thank you for that clarity that you have given. Continue, hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I thought you told me in the early 2000s when we were working in my office at the SACP that you had registered for your master’s degree. [Applause.] [Laughter.]
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I have a point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Ndlozi, what is your point of order now?
Mr M Q NDLOZI: Hon Chairperson, I have never met the hon Minister. I have never spoken to him. He doesn’t even have my number. [Interjections.] Why did he say that he offered to supervise me? Can he please clarify that he is misleading the House? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member!
Mr M Q NDLOZI: I don’t know this guy! Like nothing! I’ve never met him. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Ndlozi, I think those are the discussions of an academic nature that you, the hon Minister and the hon Shivambu must have outside the Chamber. We are now holding the state of the nation address debate. Continue, hon Minister!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Now, this antimajoritarianism has really got out of hand and has led to desperate acts disrupting Parliament.
I have a question, and this is a question to the hon Maimane. Please understand that this question is based on what the hon Mkongi was saying about dialectics. Hasn’t this opportunistic alliance between the DA and the EFF – you are led by the EFF now – led to the hooliganisation of the DA? [Laughter.] That is the question that, when next you speak, we would really like you to answer. Also, I understand now ...
IsiZulu:
... ukuthi kungani abantu baseNingizimu Afrika bengawafundi amaphepha. Bayababona abantu abaphazamisayo ...
English:
... but, when you read the newspaper the following day, the newspaper says that it is the President and the ANC that are to blame, which is not true. We want to say officially on behalf of the ANC that we fully support the action taken by the presiding officers on Thursday. [Applause.] If what led you to take that action happens again, ...
Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Chair. Can you please ... [Inaudible.]
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: ... please do it again, and it must be done both inside and outside this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister! Hon Minister! Hon Minister!
Mr G A GARDEE: There’s a problem here, hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just hold on! Take your seat, hon Minister! Hon Minister, take your seat. Hon member, why are you rising? [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member.
Mr G A GARDEE: The issue of what happened on Thursday and the injuries suffered by members of the EFF are not a joke. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr G A GARDEE: We have said it, and we are saying it again, that a judicial decision is pending. [Interjections.] I really wonder where he got his doctorate, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No. Hon member, ...
Mr G A GARDEE: ... which does not even help him to understand that he did not have to utter the remarks that he has ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member!
Mr G A GARDEE: ... just uttered on the issue of antimajoritarianism.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): You have made your point. You have made your point.
Mr G A GARDEE: Can he please refrain from that, Chairperson?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, you have made your point.
Mr G A GARDEE: Tell him, please!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, we are busy with a political debate and there are different views around different matters. Right? Earlier, the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP ruled on the matter and we expect members to abide thereby. Hon Minister, will you continue please!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, I want to give the EFF revolutionary advice. Do not start a journey where you do not know where it may end. That’s not revolutionary, because if the journey ends in the wrong place, we are actually all in trouble. That is revolutionary advice, hon Malema. We know what we are talking about. We know where we have been in this country.
IsiZulu:
Sicela ukuthi niziphathe kahle. [We ask that you behave yourselves.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, I have a point of order. .../
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, I have a point of order. .../
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, I have a point of order. The speaker cannot sit down. Can you please call him back? [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! [Interjections.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Applause.]
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson! [Interjections.] Chairperson, you will not have peace in this Parliament. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, will you take your seats please? Thank you.
Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr G A GARDEE: I have a point of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member. Why are you rising?
Mr G A GARDEE: I requested you on a point of order before he left the podium please to recall him. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! No, hon member. Why are you rising?
Mr G A GARDEE: He issued a very serious threat.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Why are you rising, hon member?
Mr G A GARDEE: He has made a threat ... [Interjections.] ... to the EFF.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema.
Mr J S MALEMA: I just want to tell Blade: I’m not scared of you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: There is nothing that you can do which can threaten me. If Blade is going to make threats here and you don’t call him to order, ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... he must know that I’m not scared of him. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No ...
Mr J S MALEMA: There is nothing that we start that we will not finish. We are not scared of Blade; neither are we scared of President Zuma’s administration or the ANC. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: There is nothing we are scared of ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... and we cannot be threatened by Blade. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, will you take your seats please? [Interjections.]
Mr J S MALEMA: We will finish it. There is nothing we cannot finish. We will finish it. We can guarantee you now that ... [Interjections.] ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: ... we will finish it. There is nothing you can do. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, will you take your seat now?
Mr J S MALEMA: Nothing at all! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema, will you take your seat now?
Mr J S MALEMA: You must know that, Blade. There is nothing you can do. Nothing! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon ...
Mr J S MALEMA: For the next five years this is what you are going to be subjected to. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: We are here and we were not invited by you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: We are here for five years! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: There is nothing you can do at all! There is nothing you can do. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: I must promise you that there is nothing you can do. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema!
Mr J S MALEMA: You see. Deal with the issues and stop threatening us. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: Stop threatening us. Deal with issues. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: Whatever we have started, we will finish. Please! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: Chair, you must tell Blade to withdraw that. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seats please.
Mr J S MALEMA: Blade must withdraw his threat. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seats please.
Mr J S MALEMA: He is threatening us. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seats please.
Mr J S MALEMA: He is threatening us! [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seats please. [Interjections.] All hon members ...
Mr J S MALEMA: If you want to take ... [Interjections.] If you want to take advantage, that is the last item. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seats please.
Mr J S MALEMA: We are going to start there tomorrow. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seats please.
Mr J S MALEMA: If he doesn’t withdraw it, ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seats.
Mr J S MALEMA: ... we are going to start there tomorrow. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr J S MALEMA: I can promise you that! We want to promise you that!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Malema! [Interjections.] Hon Malema, you are putting a point of order, but none of you are actually giving me an opportunity to hear what you have to say. [Interjections.] All your other members are also standing while you as a member are putting a point of order. [Interjections.] Will you take your seats please? Will you take your seats? [Interjections.] Take your seats please. [Interjections.] Take your seats. [Interjections.] Take your seats. [Interjections.] Take your seats.
Hon Minister of Higher Education and Training, did you issue a threat against any member in this House? [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: No! [Interjections.] No!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): I am addressing the hon Minister. I did not ask for your assistance to answer for the Minister. I think he is quite capable of answering for himself.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Hon Chair, I was not issuing a threat. If that unfortunately got interpreted as a threat, that was not my intention. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: It was advice based on experiences and the history of this country. [Interjections.] That I stand by as advice – that we must not start something that we are not sure about. It was not meant as a threat to anyone at all. If it got interpreted that way, that was not the intention. [Interjections.]
Mr N S MATIASE: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr N S MATIASE: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): The hon Singh had his hand up before you, hon member. Let me give the hon Singh an opportunity.
Mr N S MATIASE: I stood up before hon Singh.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No! No, I recognised him before you. I will come back to you, hon member.
Mr N SINGH: Hon Chairperson, we would like to make an appeal through you that, whether it was intended or perceived, the hon Minister should withdraw it. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister? [Interjections.] Order! The hon Minister gave an explanation that if it was perceived to be like that, that was not the intention. [Interjections.] Right? That is what the hon Minister has said.
Hon Minister? [Interjections.] We want to bring this session to a close, really. It has been a very long session today.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Chairperson, allow me just to preface this. [Interjections.] Allow me just to preface this. [Interjections.] The reason why I said what I said is that it cannot be that some Members of Parliament have a right to disrupt Parliament and deprive me of my right, for instance, to listen to the President. That was partly also what was offered in that. If you want me to withdraw it, ... [Interjections.] ... I am more than happy to do so.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyadrowa dadewethu. [Uhleko.]
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you. Take your seats, hon members. [Interjections.] Take your seats, hon members. [Interjections.] No, hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members!
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Lalela-ke!
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, hon member! Just wait! [Interjections.] Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members, I think after this ...
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo!
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, I have not recognised you yet, hon member. Just take your seat please.
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo, ngiyacela!
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Just take your seat first please. Take your seat. I am busy addressing the House.
IsiZulu:
Nksz M S KHAWULA: Ngiyacela Sihlalo, ngiyacela!
English:
Mr N S MATIASE: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No!
Mr N S MATIASE: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, I will give you an opportunity. Just take your seat for a while. I am busy addressing the House on this matter. [Interjections.]
All members of the House, on both sides of the House, are making the work of the presiding officers impossible by the way that we interact with one another. [Interjections.] Hon member, take your seat!
Mr N S MATIASE: Point of order, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No! Take your seat, hon member.
Mr N S MATIASE: Will you give me a chance to start?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Take your seat, hon member. [Interjections.]
You see, hon members, the dignity and the decorum of this House rely on the co-operation of all the members. There was a point of order. The Minister responded and the Minister withdrew the remark. Now, I can’t understand what the problem is after that. Therefore, I am not taking any further points of order.
That concludes the speakers’ list. The President will reply to the debate tomorrow and the House is adjourned. I thank you. [Interjections.]
The House Chairperson adjourned the Joint Sitting at 19:48.
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