Hansard: NCOP: Questions to the Deputy President
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 27 Aug 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 27 August 2014 Take: 87
WEDNESDAY, 27 AUGUST 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:02.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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START OF DAY
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Members, I have been informed by the Whippery that they have agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice today. Before we proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa.
Question 1:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson of the NCOP and hon members, it is a real joy and pleasure for me to appear before you to answer the questions that had been put to me. This is clearly my maiden appearance in the NCOP, so thank you for the special welcome. I hope that the questions will also be especially nice. [Laughter.]
In relation to Question 1, hon members, I have been informed by the Department of Energy that the ministerial advisory council on energyhas not yet been established. The Energy Ministry has received a number of nominations for the council and is currently processing a list of up to 180 nominations that it has received. I believe that, once appointed, the names of all advisory council members will duly be made public.
On the second part of the question, the private sector has a significant role to play in resolving our energy shortfall by participating in programmes that seek to boost our electricity-generating capacity. The private sector is therefore expected – and I think many in the private sector would like to participate – to augment Eskom’s build programme through the Independent Power Producer Procurement Programme, in terms of which generation capacity will be constructed on a “bot” basis, which is build, operate and transfer.
The bot process has worked very well in a number of environments around the world, and I believe that it can serve us well here too. The regulatory framework governing the electricity sector has been revised to facilitate the procurement of power from the private sector, with the private sector participating enthusiastically.
To date, the Department of Energy has determined the quantity of megawatts to be derived from renewable energy sources such as wind, solar, small hydro and biomass. Most of these sources will be produced by private sector players or independent power producers. Already, the Department of Energy has committed up to 4 000 MW of renewable energy generation through private sector funding. Thank you.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Deputy President for his answer. Deputy President, given your role as Leader of Government Business, I would like you to tell us whether government has considered the creation of an independent entity to control the national power grid and to allow for private entities to have access to the grid, as you explained now.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, this matter is under discussion, and if we listened to what the President said during the state of the nation address, the focus on our energy generation is going to result in the restructuring of our energy generation distribution and all the related processes. So that is under consideration. If you recall, the President said that, in due course, he would return to make a number of announcements in that regard.
Mr S J MOHAI
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr S J MOHAI: Chairperson, to the Deputy President through you: The energy sector is critical to the development agenda of our country, as the Deputy President has just articulated. I would like the Deputy President to share with the House whether this sector would create new entry opportunities for previously disadvantaged people and also to indicate what the role of lending institutions would be in this regard to facilitate this market for the development of entrepreneurship. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the focus that the President put on the energy sector in the state of the nation address should tell us that this is an area of great focus by the government of the Republic of South Africa, as it falls within the infrastructure programme that we have embarked upon. Restructuring and refocusing the energy delivery in our country is going to unleash a lot of opportunities for a number of players.
A number of aspects of that energy generation and distribution will lead to the type of restructuring that will enhance job opportunities and manufacturing opportunities. A number of new players, such as previously disadvantaged players and companies, can come to the fore and take up various opportunities.
What are we looking at? We are, for instance, looking at a full energy mix that will encompass not only coal but go beyond coal to include shale gas, oil and gas, solar and wind energy. In all those, there will be opportunities that will be unlocked. The financing thereof clearly is something for which I would like to believe that financial institutions, when they see a clear business case, will be prepared to come to the fore and provide funding. Indeed, our own developmental finance institutions should be able to give great assistance in this regard.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy President: In reference to the statement that you made about the President referring to restructuring, would you like to share with us how many of the Cabinet Ministers support the creation of the privatisation of the energy sector?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the President leads the Cabinet, and it is not a divided Cabinet. It is a united Cabinet — that is what the President leads. He does not oversee or lead a divided Cabinet, so when Cabinet meets and discusses matters, it discusses matters in a unified way. When decisions are taken, those decisions bind all members of the Cabinet. When matters are still in discussion, I think we should wait until full discussion has taken place and until a conclusion has been announced. Thank you.
QUESTION 2
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QUESTION 1
Question 2:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, in relation to Question 2, there is currently no plan to establish a commission to investigate tax evasion or capital flight from South Africa. The issue of tax evasion is clearly a very important one in our country and it should be an important one for all citizens in South Africa. Tax evasion and the illegal transfer of capital across borders is dealt with by the relevant authorities in our country, and these include the SA Revenue Service, Sars, the SA Reserve Bank, Sarb, and the law and prosecuting authorities.
As part of their routine activities, Sars and Sarb continually assess taxpayers, and they also continually assess significant financial transactions where they believe that such activities are not declared or are not legitimate.
The most significant form of tax evasion practices are often done via what they call base erosion and profit shifting, referred to as Beps, which describes tax planning strategies that rely on mismatches and gaps that exist between the tax rules of different jurisdictions. These strategies are designed to minimise the corporation tax that is payable overall by either making tax profits disappear or by shifting profits to low-tax operations where there is little or no genuine activity.
In most cases these strategies are not illegal. They largely exploit differences in tax rules between countries. This is essentially a global problem, and for this reason the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development,OECD, has commenced a major research project that is aimed at sharpening the mechanisms to deal with transfer pricing and base erosion.
In South Africa, the former Minister of Finance appointed a tax review committee chaired by Judge Dennis Davis, and he did this so that we can move towards evaluating South Africa’s tax system against internationally accepted tax trends, principles and practices in order to improve tax compliance and deal with problems of base erosion. The committee is expected to produce its report later this year, and I’m sure many of us are looking forward, with great anticipation, to the publishing of this report.
With regard to the second part of the question, I wish to point out that capital flows are necessary for economic growth. The Reserve Bank monitors outflows and inflows through the administration of exchange controls in terms of a delegation by the Minister of Finance. To the extent that the Reserve Bank identifies any criminal violations, it reports such activities to the prosecuting authorities, over and above any administrative action it may take. Exchange control policy is regularly updated in the light of global developments.
Over the years, government simplified the financial services regulatory environment for firms that wish to invest in Africa, by easing the restrictions on commodity-based exchange traded funds and by increasing the macroprudential limit for banks to facilitate further expansion of South African banks into Africa.
To the extent that there are any criminal transgressions with regard to taxation or money transfers, the relevant authorities take appropriate steps, including referring cases to the prosecuting authorities. The Reserve Bank and Sars work closely together to monitor capital flow movements. Applications for cross-border transactions often require tax clearance by Sars to ensure that tax risks are being reduced. Ongoing interactions between the two mean that as far as possible, attempts to move capital offshore for tax reasons are reduced. I thank you.
Ms L-A MATHYS
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Ms L-A MATHYS: Hon Deputy President, I must admit that I was expecting a more pointed response that would deal with this more decisively, particularly since we know that the estimation of corporate tax evasion and those matters associated with it runs into billions of rands. The KwaZulu-Natal budget that’s allocated for education, doesn’t even amount to that amount of tax, particularly with regard to what the mining sector gives to our fiscus.
In the light of the reports before the Marikana Commission yesterday, it seems that businesses are being protected, especially in the mining sector.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Mathys, you are supposed to ask a supplementary question.
Ms L-A MATHYS: I am getting there. I was just sketching the background.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have wasted most of your two minutes in a speech.
Ms L-A MATHYS: Two minutes? Okay, in the light of the reports before the Marikana Commission yesterday, it appears that government is protecting the mining houses, and we had our former Minister of Mineral Resources saying that you lied to the commission in saying that you were not acting in the interests of business[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, honMathys!
Ms L-A MATHYS: So I would like to know ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, honMathys!
Ms L-A MATHYS: Yes, hon Chairperson? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Your question that you put is about tax evasion and capital flight. You have now given a long preamble to a question which you are leading, which has nothing to do with the primary question you posed.
Ms L-A MATHYS: It does,hon Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You were given the opportunity ... [Interjections.]
I am addressing the hon member who is standing. Hon Mokoena, please take your seat.
You were given the opportunity to redirect yourself. Please redirect yourself in a supplementary question to the original question you put to the Deputy President. You are being given a further chance.
Ms L-A MATHYS: In the light of the reports before the Marikana Commission yesterday Deputy Minister, are you protecting businesses? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy President.
Ms L-A MATHYS: I beg your pardon — Deputy President. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Calm down, hon members. Hon Deputy President, it is a new question. Are you prepared to respond to it?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am prepared to respond.
Ms L-A MATHYS: Are you protecting business and did you order thekilling of the Marikanaworkers ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon member, please take your seat!
Ms L-A MATHYS: ... as reported by the commission. [Interjections.]
Mr L G MOKOENA: On a point of order ...
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think we are on record as government in saying that tax evasion is not only a crime against the state, but it also a crime against ordinary people of our country. It is a practice that we would like to discourage and to root out of our body politic so that people do not evade paying their taxes.
To the extent that anyone, be it an individual, company or corporation evades paying taxes, they should ordinarily be pursued by the prosecuting authorities. We have a very effective revenue service, Sars, that is able to identify whether people or companies are evading paying tax, and if anyone of us knows people or companies that are evading paying tax, that should be reported to the authorities and they should take appropriate action. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon De Beer, honMotlashuping, hon ... [Interjections.]
Is there a point of order? [Interjection.] I have already picked the third hand.
Hon members, the first bite at the question goes to the person who has put the question. Then the three supplementary questions are preferably given to any other members in the House.
Please bear with me, Deputy President, we are still in the learning phase.
The first time around, the reason why I chose the honLabuschagne again was that there wasn’t any other member so I reverted to her. In this instance, I have recognised three names so let’s follow in that order, please.
Mr L G MOKOENA: Chair, I wanted to raise a point of order on the following issue: When a certain Member of Parliament is asking questions there’s intimidation, even from the Presiding Officer. In that case she is not allowed to ask her question. There’s intimidation from the House. It’s not fair. Can the Chair please call order on that?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Chair is in order. Hon members have the opportunity to put questions. The response is four minutes.They are then given two minutes to ask their supplementary questions. Hon Mathys was given that opportunity.
Now, a follow-up or supplementary question is a question which is directly related to the question which was originally put. Hon Mokoena, I’m not going to engage in a to-and-fro discussion. You have said that you are being intimidated. You will not be intimidated. However, the hon member was given her full time to put her supplementary question.
Mr C J DE BEER
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The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Deputy President, South Africa is an international role-player in the global environment, and looking at the question dealing with capital flight from South Africa, what measures are there to counteract tax evasion? In other words, does South Africa have treaties or agreements with other countries in the global environment?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, South Africa is a player in the global economic environment and we play in that environment with great ability and a great deal of enthusiasm. As we live in an interconnected world, we trade with a number of nations and they trade with us.
There are quite a number of agreements and treaties that we have with various countries around the world, which don’t only deal with trade matters but also with tax matters in terms of ensuring that taxation is consistent throughout the various countries that we deal with at a trade level. We make sure that those who seek to evade paying tax will be caught in the web of all these treaties, protocols and agreements that we have. Thank you.
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr T C MOTLASHUPING: Hon Deputy President, my question relates to the rate of tax evasion in South Africa after 1994. Is it necessarily at an alarming rate, or is there a great improvement? Has government put measures in place to ensure that people do not evade paying tax?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I think what is pleasing about the dawn of democracy is that a number of South Africans have taken up paying their taxes with enthusiasm. The SA Revenue Service, Sars, has, on a year to year basis, been reporting that more and more people are coming forward to pay their taxes, and we see it in the figures that Sars keeps reporting.
This means that people are responding to this democracy dividend by saying that, likewise, we will pay our taxes because we see that our taxes are no longer being used to buy bombs and planes that are going to bomb our people and neighbouring countries and instead taxes are now paying for the development of our country, for building infrastructure and for improving the lives of our people.
What I have found is that more and more companies and individuals are beginning to pay their taxes and I would say that if one were to look at the statistics, we could possibly find that the statistics for people who are evading paying tax is decreasing, as statistics for people who are paying taxes are increasing. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr E J VON BRANDIS
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr E J VON BRANDIS: Hon Deputy President, what other urgent measures isgovernment going to implement to encourage investors to invest and to stay in South Africa, in order to prevent this flight of capital?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, clearly capital flight is something that every country should be very concerned about. Every country should be keener on getting foreign direct investment. South Africa has been rather blessed that in recent times we have seen an increase in foreign direct investment flowing into our country, with more and more companies and countries becoming interested in doing business with us.
As the President stated in his state of the nation address, what we seek to do, as we radically transform our country at an economic level, is to ensure that we make South Africa an attractive place to do business in. Making South Africa a place to do good business in means that we have to improve our infrastructure; reduce the regulatory burden that many companies feel impedes them from investing more enthusiastically in South Africa; and make South Africa a more friendly investment environment.
This is what we are committed to doing and various government departments are taking a number of steps to move in that direction. We are actually taking active steps to encourage foreign direct investment in our country. At times, as the President travels around the world, most of what he does is to try to encourage various companies and countries to invest in South Africa. We are improving on an ongoing basis with regard to creating a climate conducive to further foreign direct investment into South Africa. [Applause.]
QUESTION 3
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QUESTION 2
Question 3:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, in relation to this question, the government of South Africa has communicated its unequivocal and strongest condemnation of Israeli attacks against Palestinians in Gaza to the government of the State of Israel and we did this through a number of measures.
A démarche was issued by Deputy Minister NomaindiaMfeketo, who summoned the Israeli ambassador to her Office on 16 July 2014 at the height of this conflict. A meeting between the Israeli Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and the special envoys who were appointed by our President, Dr Zola Skweyiyaand MrAziz Pahad, was held on 28 July in Israel.
Furthermore, the special envoys delivered President Zuma’s letter to the Israeli Prime Minister, Mr Benjamin Netanyahu, and in that letter the President expressed our condemnation of the attacks on Palestinians in Gaza.
The government of South Africa is not considering suspending diplomatic relations with Israel. The maintaining of diplomatic relations with Israel allows our country to continue to engage with Israel on issues of mutual interest, including the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
Because of the diplomatic relations that exist between the two countries, President Zuma was able to dispatch these two envoys to convey South Africa’s grave concern at the security situation. This we would not have been able to do if we had curtailed diplomatic relations with the State of Israel.
We chose to do so — to remain engaged with the State of Israel — because it is often best, when you want to solve problems, to remain engaged so that you can have some leverage. And this gave our President the leverage to be able to send the two special envoys. Furthermore, maintaining diplomatic relations with Israel allows South Africa to maintain its presence in Ramallah.
The government of South Africa joins the international community in calling for an end to the violence in the Middle East. It is our conviction that there will be no military solution to the current challenges facing Israel and Palestine. Only a negotiated settlement will bring about a lasting and durable solution to the problems facing the Middle East.
Accordingly, we call on all sides in the conflict to observe the terms of the current ceasefire agreement negotiated in Egypt just yesterday. We hope that this agreement, which was crafted yesterday and was celebrated in the Middle East, will, particularly in the Palestinian areas, lay the foundation for a comprehensive ceasefire agreement when the parties meet once again in a month’s time. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ngaka H E MATEME
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Sepedi:
Ngaka H E MATEME: ModulasetulowaNtlo yeo e hlomphegago, ketšeasebaka se kelebogaMotlatšamoporesidentegelehonoa re file ditabatšeo di tšwagokgodungyalerotse. Re rutegile e bile re a kgotsofala gore nagayaAfrikaBorwa e dira go tlalaseatla, go kgonthišiša gore ka le lengwe la matšatši, kua Middle East, banabaMaPalestina le bommago bona le batšofadiba bona gotee le bona bale baMaIsraelebarobalaboroko. Ke a leboga.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That was not a supplementary question. I think it was an elaborate thank you.
Setswana:
Motlatsamoporesidente: Re eletsa gore go nnejalo gore bathobakwaPalesitina le kwaIseraelefabasaennetumalano e ya cease-fire, bakgone go robalaborokomatsatsi a alatelang le dikgweditse di latelang. Re tshepa gore batlarobalaboroko le modingwagengtse di latelang gore go sekagatlhola go nna le ntwa. Rona re le bathobaAforikaborwa, re eletsa gore dintwa di felekwa Middle East. [Legofi.]
Ms L-A MATHYS
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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English:
Ms L-A MATHYS: Hon Chair, Deputy President, again it appears that business is being protected by government, and, in this particular case, Jewish business, which seems to be putting pressure on our government not to suspend diplomatic relations.
How can we view our not suspending our diplomatic relations with an apartheid state as not supporting the apartheid State of Israel? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, as I said in my reply, the decision our government took not to suspend or curtail diplomatic relations was done with a specific purpose in mind. Let’s accept that there are two views on this.
The one view is to cut all links and engagements with the State of Israel; the other view is to retain diplomatic relations because, through that, you remain engaged and you are able to bring some measure of influence – even as you voice your protest.
Our government chose the latter; that we will remain engaged, that we will voice our protest and this has enabled us to have some leverage to be able to send two special envoys, Dr Zola SkweyiyaandMrAziz Pahad – who were both senior-ranking Ministers in the government of South Africa — to go to engage with the government of Israel in Israel itself. Through this, they were able fully to articulate our government’s opposition and its grave concern about the situation over there.
We would like to believe that they did make some headway. And, as the ceasefire has now been signed, we must know that there are many people and countries that are making all sorts of efforts to get the warring parties to come to the table.
Through the reports we have received, we believe that they did make South Africa’s voice heard very clearly and we are rather pleased that a ceasefire has now been arrived at or agreed to. Also, it seems to be a long-term type of ceasefire. We hope that the people of Israel and Palestine will be able to find peace and stop the killing and the slaughter that has been taking place. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, from your first reply, I think it is safe to presume that the South African government will continue to work towards a negotiated settlement, towards a permanent and peaceful end to the conflict.
If so, and I would like you to be very specific about this, how do you see the South African government’s role in going about and achieving this peaceful end to the conflict and a settlement that is permanent? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, South Africa has developed a particular DNA when it comes to settling conflicts and that DNA is that conflicts are best settled through negotiation, when warring parties sit around a table and find one another and reach a settlement. That is what we’ve been bequeathed as South Africans by the founding fathers of our nation. This is what has brought us to where we are today – we negotiated an end to our own conflict through negotiation.
This is something that we enthusiastically always want to export, not in an imposing or arrogant way, but just to share experiences with other countries. To this end, President Zuma appointed two envoys, as I said, to go to the Middle East to interact with the conflicting parties in that part of the world. Our commitment, mission and objective is to see the Middle East conflict being settled through negotiation in a permanent way.
How are we going to do this? We will use all manner of strategies and tactics, if you like. Most of them can never really be specific. The most specific is to say that the warring parties must sit around a table and negotiate and find one another.
The appointment of the two special envoys by President Zuma is actually quite a defining act. Not many countries have done that. We did that and they are out there, interacting with the various parties and reporting to President Zuma on an ongoing basis in terms of either the progress or the discussions they have.
We want to see a more permanent settlement ensuing out there. That is why we hail and applaud the ceasefire agreement that was arrived at and we hope that it will lead to more permanent and peaceful solutions.
We are not acting alone, by the way. We have a number of other parties that are involved. In this conflict we are trying to bring in as much assistance as we possibly can and we are rather pleased that Egypt provided the stimulus to ensure that a settlement was reached. We will stand behind anyone who is prepared to ensure that there is peace in the Middle East. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B G NTHEBE
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr B G NTHEBE: Hon Chair, Deputy President, you were so eloquent in identifying that South Africa is part of the international community and therefore has a special role to play in the ongoing struggle to bring about the cessation of hostilities there.
Is it this government’s wish that the special envoys continue to play a critical role, moving forward, in the light of the cessation of hostilities brought about by yesterday’s agreement? Are there any history lessons that we want to convey, deriving from our history as a nation? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, when President Zuma appointed the two special envoys, one of his objectives was for them to familiarise themselves with the situation over there and to meet with various parties – both on the Israeli and Palestinian side – in order to engage them, to share our own experiences with them and to show them how we went about solving our problems, which the world at one stage thought were intractable problems without any form of solution.
These two envoys, Dr Zola SkweyiyaandMrAziz Pahad, are imminent South Africans who have lived through our own transition process and participated in it. They have led it in a number of forms and ways and they will be able to bring their experience and what they have lived through in terms of sharing South Africa’s experiences with the parties in the Middle East.
I expect that they will remain engaged in the Middle East for quite a while and make sure that they give whatever assistance to or share whatever experiences with various parties in the Middle East. Our objective is to ensure that we have a peaceful world across the board. We have a lot of experience in this regard.
Our own President, President Zuma, was a special envoy to Burundi and he participated in that process for quite a long time until the people of Burundi were able to settle their own differences and conflicts. Our participation and sharing our experiences were quite meaningful and they appreciated that and they appreciate that to this day. So, we hope and trust that the same will be obtained as our two envoys continue to engage with the situation in the Middle East. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 4
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QUESTION 3
Question 4:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, with regard to Question 4, Provincial Councils on Aids have been established in various forms in all our provinces. At present, the Provincial Councils on Aids exist in all provinces, as I have said.
Five of these Provincial Councils on Aids are chaired by premiers, that is, in Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and in the Northern Cape. In the Eastern Cape, Free State and Western Cape, the provincial councils that have been established have been delegated to the MECs for Health and are led by the MECs for Health. In the North West Province, the Provincial Council on Aids has been established as a public entity in the Office of the Premier.
As the Chair of the South African National Aids Council, Sanac, I will engage with the newly appointed leadership in all our provinces around the decision of the PresidentialInfrastructure Co-ordinating Commission that all provincial councils should be chaired by the premier.
We believe that this is preferable, that an important project like this should be led at the level of the premier so that we bring about strong leadership on an issue as important as this. In this regard, we are also supported in this resolve by a number of other organisations that we work with in the fight against HIV/Aids.
All nine provinces have developed provincial strategic plans. These are aligned to the National Strategic Plan, NSP, for HIV, STIs and TB: 2012-2016. These provincial plans have been developed in consultation with key strategic stakeholders and have been communicated widely. In KwaZulu-Natal, a summary version of the provincial strategic plan has been produced and translated into IsiZulu.
Broad challenges include a shortage of human resources. Resource constraints and co-ordination in the implementation of these programmes also create a problem. The Sanac secretariat provides support to the Provincial Councils on Aids to address these problems on an ongoing basis. Thank you.
Ms M F THLAKE
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Ms M F THLAKE: Chairperson, I would like to thank the Deputy President. The provincial Aids councils and district Aids councils are regarded as critical health structures in our communities in order to promote primary health care and its accessibility to the community that suffers from HIV/Aids.
Arising out of the hon Deputy President’s reply, my question would be the following: Can we regard the National Development Plan, NDP, as a national framework whereby the provincial Aids councils can actually draw their strategic plans so that they can have equal, standardised plans, rather than each and every one having its own way of treating HIV/Aids?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I can say that the National Development Plan, NDP, is the overarching plan for our country. It is the blueprint that we have embraced and adopted as a country. Similarly, when it comes to the strategic plans which have been developed at the Sanac level, we would like to see a measure of uniformity, a measure of introducing standardisation and doing things in a similar way.
It is for this reason that it is felt that the provincial Aids councils should be led at the premier’s level so that there is no disjuncture.
At the same time, whatever else we do needs to be standardised so that our work on Aids is uniform throughout the country, obviously taking into account regional and local characteristics. However, we do need to sing from the same hymnbook. We also need to remember that we are not a federal country; we are a unitary state and we need to do things in a standardised way, in a uniform way, as we attack common problems. This is what we are committed to doing. [Applause.]
Ms L L ZWANE
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms L L ZWANE: Thank you, Chairperson.Your Excellency the Deputy President, it is a known fact that Sanac has done a great deal of good work in the fight against HIV/Aids. It has done so to such an extent that I would like to know whether Sanac has actually developed an effective monitoring and evaluating tool to track the performance of the provincial Aids councils as well as to inform policy and strategy reviews. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, yes, to its great credit, Sanac has done a great deal of work. Much of the success that we have recorded and are recording in our fight against HIV/Aids has been led and co-ordinated by Sanac. There was great wisdom in setting up Sanac, because through Sanac we have been able to bring together various role-players who are able to contribute wisdom, good ideas and various levels of energy to make sure that our response against HIV/Aids is properly co-ordinated.
When it comes to the monitoring and evaluation, that is an on-going process. We are sharpening our wits and we are sharpening our capability when it comes to monitoring. Sanac is doing everything that it can to make sure that our monitoring processes throughout the country are properly aligned, particularly in relation to the Provincial Councils on Aids.
It is for this reason that we want the leadership of the provincial Aids councils to be led at the premier’s level where better co-ordination can take place, where we are able to get the political leadership and the buy-in of all the provincial executive councils. Through this, we believe we would be able to gain more traction as we monitor and as we make greater progress in our fight against HIV/Aids. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister, my question is ...
HON MEMBERS: Deputy President!
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: The Deputy President, pardon me.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It does not matter. They both fit. [Laughter.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you for not being position-aligned. Thank you for that. Deputy President, my question to you is based on the Provincial Councils on Aids. I want to know, are these councils going to be the usual talk shops of the ruling party, which they have been, or what have these councils achieved thus far in order to combat this? Lastly, Deputy Minister ... [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It does not matter.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Maybe you will be a Minister next time.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is the same thing. It does not matter. [Laughter.]
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Thank you. Deputy President, we have seen in South Africa all the Aids-related diseases and infectious diseases. We know that you are connected with Sanac and I want to know the following: What have the measures that you have put in place achieved in trying to combat this?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, are the provincial Aids councils talk shops? I would like to believe they are not. If they were talk shops, whatever measures we are taking now will strengthen them. However, they are not talk shops. They are quite effective. What we are seeking to do is strengthen them. What is pleasing is that our provinces have taken on this task with a great deal of commitment and determination.
I have found that a number of our provincial Aids councils are doing really good work. They are doing good work because the fight against Aids cannot be fought at the central level only. It has to be done at all levels. The provincial aspect plays a key role because it is through our provincial Aids councils that we have good linkages with various structures, nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, health workers, and health-related NGOs that enable us to link up with our ordinary people on the ground.
Therefore they are making progress, and I would like to believe that they would make even more progress as we move forward, as we strengthen them and as we ensure that the strategic plans that have been put in place are actually implemented. We want to make sure of that at the Sanac level.
In relation to the second question, I would like to believe that much as our infections may seem to be high and even slightly on the increase, we have made tremendous progress when it comes to our fight against HIV/Aids. We should never forget that we have made tremendous progress, and we need to be alert at all times to make sure that we continue our struggle against HIV/Aids to prevent further infections.
We are now beginning to target a number of sectors to make sure that we focus more and more attention on them to reduce the burden of further and higher infections. We will make progress. We have it within us, and we have the resolve to make progress in our fight against HIV/Aids. Sanac is quite effective and we want to make it more effective as we move forward. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms L-A MATHYS
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Ms L-A MATHYS: Chairperson, during his Budget Speech, the Minister of Health announced that we are going to start the roll-out of antiretroviral, ARV, drugs at a much earlier stage, beginning January 2015.
Given the shortages that we have with our people accessing treatment – sometimes they start treatment, and they get to the clinic, or they get to the hospital, and the ARVs haven’t been delivered — we understand there is a dire need for patients who are on treatment to have access to regular treatment.
Therefore my question is the following: What are we putting in place to ensure that we don’t have shortages of ARVs, both in clinics and hospitals, where people who begin the treatment cannot have access to treatment because we have not delivered the medicines to hospitals? Thank you, Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Chairperson.honMathys, indeed we have encountered problems when it comes to the delivery of antiretroviral medication to various hospitals in specific provinces.
The Minister has been very strategic in responding to this. They have put together an intervention plan that assures that those shortages, firstly, are properly monitored on the radar screen at a national level. They have line of sight of where these shortages happen. Secondly, they have put in place systems, or measures, whereby they are able to intervene.
As we speak now, I know that the Ministry is in the process of making all efforts to intervene to ensure that these shortages are addressed as quickly as possible. I think we should be pleased that we have the Ministry that we have that is able, firstly, to admit that the problems exist and, secondly, to take immediate remedial steps to address the challenges and the problems that they have.
I found them to be very upfront, to be very open and to be very communicative, and, in this regard, I have been rather pleased to find that they have acted with a measure of speed to address some of those challenges. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 5
QUESTION 4
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Question 5:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, the sex worker sector is one of the 16 sectors represented in the South African National Aids Council, Sanac. The sector is fully engaged in the Sanac Civil Society Forum, the Sanac Programme Review Committee and the Sanac Plenary. In addition, the sex worker sector participates in the Sanac Human Rights Technical Task Team that deals with legal and human rights.
The national response to the HIV epidemic aims to ensure that all those who require them have access to the necessary services. In addition, the conditional grant dedicates resources specifically for programmes that address the needs of vulnerable groups, including the sex worker community.
Research and surveillance activities are currently underway to improve our ability to refine our interventions in these areas.
The Sanac Secretariat, working through the Country Co-ordinating Mechanism, has secured funding from the Global Fund for the implementation of a national sex worker programme, as highlighted in the National Strategic Plan,NSP, for HIV, STIs and TB for 2012 to 2016.
Ms L C DLAMINI
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Ms L C DLAMINI: Hon Chairperson, Your Excellency, the Deputy President, just a correction, it is commercial sex workers, not just sex workers.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, I am well corrected. [Laughter.]
Ms L C DLAMINI: My follow-up question is: Are there future plans to involve the clients or customers in the future, in terms of education and condom distribution? Because it takes two to tango,we should not only focus on the commercial sex workers and exclude the buyers.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am well corrected and from now on, I will refer to them as commercial sex workers. You asked a question about the buyers. Should we also call them commercial buyers — of a special type maybe? [Laughter.]
The research that is underway will be all-encompassing. Indeed, it is ideal that when we make interventions that will address the challenge that commercial sex workers face, we do not exclude their partners in this act or business or whatever you call it. Indeed, when it comes to things like distribution of condoms and health checks, I believe, it would be ideal that they too find a way to participate.
The research work and results should be able to give us policy options that we can embark on to address this matter more effectively. Thank you, also for the correction. [Laughter.]
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Your Excellency, the Deputy President, arising out of you response, I further want to ask whether you have conducted any oversight in terms of the problems, distresses and challenges of sex workers.
I’ll tell you why I ask this. I ask this because when honBalindlela was the Premier of the Eastern Cape, she engaged with sex workers on specific hotspots and even gave a phone number for them to call her when they are in distress. It is in that line that I want to ask you the question. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We hope the Deputy President will not give his number. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I hope that the hon member is not suggesting that I go to these hotspots and dish out my number. [Laughter.] This is an important question. I would see it falling in the category of the research and surveillance programme that is going to be embarked upon.
It is important because commercial sex workers are our fellow citizens and they are as human as we are.They participate in this commercial activity and we need to understand what it is they are involved in and do some research. I would say that it is a very good suggestion. Indeed, it would also fall in this realm.
We should take it up enthusiastically. I hope that when the research results are available, we should be able to share it so that we gain a better understanding of what is happening with commercial sex workers, in relation to the challenges and the problems that they face. Thank you.
Mr M KHAWULA
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr M KHAWULA: Thank you, Chairperson, Your Excellency, the Deputy President of our country, further arising out of your reply, in relation to the activities and operations of Sanac and the provincial Aids councils, I would like to know whether the NGOs and the NPOs are seen by government as institutions that can play a role in the fight against HIV/Aids. I would like to know whether government ensures that NGOs and NPOs are properly capacitated to assist in this regard. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the government of the Republic of South Africa always seeks to have inclusive participation in many of the endeavours that it embarks upon andthe addressing of the HIV/Aids epidemic is a case in point.
The government initiated the formation of Sanac, with a view to creating a forum - an entity in which all those who are concerned with the fight against this epidemic will be involved. A huge component of those who are involved is the NGO sector, the NPO sector and various other entities that are involved in doing meaningful work at community level.
The NGOs meet in plenary and they also have a forum where they meet, participate and deal with policy and operational matters to bring about an influence on what Sanac does. The strategic plan, as it has unfolded, was shaped and formed, in part, by the participation of the NGO and NPO sectors.
Is the NGO sector well capacitated? I think that if you were to ask them, they would say that they could do with more and that they would want more assistance. We would be very supportive of them getting as much assistance as they can because NGOs play a very important role in the body politic and life of our country. Indeed, they make a huge contribution to the progress we are making in the fight against the HIV/Aids epidemic.
Therefore, we want them to be capacitated. They get resources from various sources. It ranges from a plethora of sources of funding to sources that capacitate them, but they will always need more and more. The government will always be supportive of ensuring that they get as much help as they possibly can.
Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Ms T G MPAMBO-SIBHUKWANA: Your Excellency, the Deputy President, further arising out of your reply I would like to know what progress the government has made in trying to legalise commercial sex work as a mechanism mainly to protect the sex workers and to prevent health problems.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, what progress have we made in legalising the activities of commercial sex workers? There is work that is currently underway at the South African Law Reform Commission. They are looking closely at this. We hope that there will be some policy position that will come forward from them.
I think that until they come forward with something, let us watch this space because they are going to do thorough research for us as a nation. When they do come up with whatever position, we should then be able to see how best we can take it forward in whatever shape or form.
I am surethat following this there will be thorough public debates on this very important matter and I would like to wait until they come out with their report. Thank you.
QUESTION 6
QUESTION 5
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Question 6:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Chairperson, South Africa is indeed looking at various avenues to ensure energy security, especially through the use of renewable sources that produce electricity while reducing our dependence on and the emissions associated with fossil fuels.
In addition to our exploiting abundant natural resources such as coal, our energy demand will be met by expanded use of renewables. In line with the Integrated Resource Plan, about 18 000 MW of renewable energy is due to be introduced in the period up to 2030. To date about 4 000 MW has been committed. According to the Department of Energy, this programme has brought about R140 billion of green energy economy investment into South Africa and has created more than 10 000 jobs during the construction phase of the various renewable energy projects.
Due to the dispersed nature of these projects, local economic development in the most remote areas of our country has actually become possible and has thus expanded opportunities for many rural communities. Many of these renewable energy projects are in far-flung areas of our country where there is either good solar distribution or wind and it is actually quite pleasing to see these projects being rolled out and being installed and thereafter a mushroom of economic activity beginning to ensue.
Finally, the Renewable Energy Independent Power Producer Programme, REIPPP, will also help to diversify our energy mix, diversifying it away from coal and thereby reducing the country’s greenhouse gas emissions in line with our international commitments in relation to climate change. Thank you.
Mr D STOCK
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr D STOCK: Hon Deputy President, the sector is not an old sector; it is new. So, there are, of course, a number of challenges that the sector continues to experience. So I would like to know if the Deputy President could tell us what the government is doing to create awareness and to educate our people in the various communities in regard to the challenges that the energy sector continues to experience.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, indeed, the renewable energy sector is a new sector in our country. Like many other countries, we have taken to it with a great deal of energy, if you like. [Laughter.] We are seeing great opportunities being ushered in regarding the economic grid of our country as we roll them out one after the other.And as we gain more and more knowledge and as we gain more and more traction as a people with this, we will need to spread more and more information about the efficacy of renewable energy.
Renewable energy indeed has to be seen as the future of energy generation and distribution if we are to reduce our gas emissions. We are abundantly endowed with sun, wind, and now shale gas, and possibly also quite a lot of oil and gas. We need to exploit these resources. As we exploit them, we need to be educating our people and putting out the information so that they can understand what it’s all about.
As part of this, there are quite a number of spin-offs. One of those is educating young learners not only to understand it, but also to gain technical skills at colleges and universities both here and abroad so that they can qualify as solar, wind, and hydro engineers. A number of countries that have done so are now benefitting a great deal for having trained their young people, so South Africa has to start and has to speed up the process of educating its young people who are going to be the key players in this new energy mix, as we move forward.
The other important spin-off is, of course, what I referred to earlier and that is the economic dividend that we can get out of this if we invest properly. The economic dividend can also benefit new players in the economic landscape of our country. The previously disadvantaged companies can also be keen players in this. We are already seeing quite a number of them beginning to play a role in this field.
So, this whole energy sector is about to usher in a great deal of benefit for our country that goes way beyond just the generation of energy. It will lead to employment creation, and it will also lead to the creation of a number of businesses that will feed into ensuring that our economy grows exponentially. [Applause.]
Mr L G MOKOENA
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
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Mr L G MOKOENA: Hon Deputy President, Sasol has been with us for 20 years now. Sasol is an important and key provider of energy, especially in the natural gas space.But Sasol seems to be shedding shares outside the borders of our country. This is becoming a problem because in its agreements with, for instance, Mozambique and South Africa – two governments – Sasol seems to be a major shareholder. It does not therefore seem that we are in control of those commodities that it provides. Sasol is making strides in Qatar, in the US and so forth.
What are we doing in South Africa to make sure that those shares remain in South Africa so that we can provide especially natural gas to our RDP houses and so forth?
Also, could the Deputy President tell us why are we not using liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, to provide energy to the poorest of the poor? From our perspective, Sasol should just be nationalised. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, I might not able to answer intelligently on the issue of the sale of Sasol shares outside our country. I know from what one reads in the papers that Sasol is involved in forays into a number of areas in the world – Qatar and places like that.
That is possibly their business model. The business model is that they will go out there and invest in various economically viable projects. That might be why they are in Mozambique. As you know, they are exploiting ore in Mozambique, importing the gas from Mozambique and bringing it into South Africa. Years ago, as I travelled around the country, I saw huge pipelines being built between Mozambique and South Africa to bring the gas from Mozambique to South Africa. I am not fully aware of the agreements and protocols that have to do with this.
I am not able to comment on the efficacy of the nationalisation of Sasol, but I am sure that the member from the EFF will have a great deal of deeper knowledge about that. I do, however, think that proper engagement with Sasol on the types of programmes they are embarking on would be a good thing so that we can understand it clearly.
Gas has proven to be one of the cheaper forms of energy and in a number of countries it falls in the category of cheap energy. Gas would be good for people at the lower end of the income spectrum. So there is a case to be made for LPG and for gas to be distributed more generally.
I am sure that, as we move towards exploiting our own resources such as shale gas, we will be able to unlock a cornucopia of great benefits from an energy point of view.
So that will be my answer.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Arising out of the hon Deputy President’s reply, I would like to know why government has failed to prioritise a balanced mix of energy sources as proposed in the Energy Plan, deciding instead to go with an all-in, fruit salad sort of approach. This decision could result in our children’s generation having to pay for very expensive energy.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, let us remember what the President announced during his state of the nation address. He spoke at great length about the strategic outlook on our energy mix. In saying so, he said that we are moving more and more towards having what I would regard as a balanced energy mix that is going to have fossil fuels in the form of coal, but will also incorporate renewable energy sources such as solar and wind and will also incorporate nuclear.
All these resources will be brought into the mix to provide good energy. All of this falls in the category of infrastructure development, the lack of which has been a huge constraint on our economic growth. If we can resolve the energy problem or challenge in our country, we should be able to see our economic growth increasing on an exponential basis.
So, yes, it is going to cost money. Infrastructure projects don’t come free; they cost money. Similarly, rolling out energy projects of whatever nature – be they coal, oil and gas, shale gas, wind, or hydro – will indeed cost money. Nuclear energy will also cost money.
What I think will be the key challenge for us would be finding a balanced way to finance all these projects as we grow economically. This is capital investment; this is not current investment. We will be investing so that our economy can grow. As the economy grows, we should have the financial wherewithal to be able to finance some of these projects.
There are quite a number of financing packages and programmes and proposals that we can to bring to bear. Some of these proposals have to with vendors financing some of the projects. Some vendors will be very keen to finance some of our projects. Some will come with softer terms as we roll out this project.
There is a plethora of ways of financing some of these projects. Therefore I would say that we should not be too afraid; we should move forward – obviously with caution – and try to do most of the things within our means. At the same time, we should remember that we are investing for the future and for economic growth. Thank you.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chair, Your Excellency Hon Deputy President,...
Afrikaans:
Ek wil dit in Afrikaans sê, want ’n mens sê dit so mooi in Afrikaans: Ek wil nie hê Suid-Afrika moet ons siel vir ’n pot lensiesop verkoop nie. Daarmee bedoel ek dat ons nie noodwendig in kernkrag moet gaan sonder om eers nugter daaroor te dink nie.
English:
You mentioned that we could go the nuclear energy route. The question about making our children pay for what we are doing now was specifically raised.
When we look at the energy mix and we look at the current cost of nuclear energy, which has increased almost ten-fold over the last couple of years, and weigh that up against renewable energy options, should we then not open up more independent power producers, IPPs, so that we can explore the opportunities of green foreign investment and rural development – both of which you mentioned – and the cost of effective energy? With those investments come jobs. So my question is:Can’t we open up the IPP sector?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chair, to the hon member...
Afrikaans:
Net soos jy daar sê, ons moet nie bang wees om te dink nie. Onsmoet dink. Party keermoetonsegteroorspronklik in onsdenkewees. Onsmoetuit die “box” dink...
English:
...because thinking is one of those things we should do on a continuous basis. When we embark on programmes, it does not mean that a great deal of thought has not gone into them. If one listens very carefully, one will realise that we are not being reckless when it comes to this.
We are saying we will have an energy mix, and that this energy mix is going to be such that we will rely on a variety of energy sources. Yes, coal, which has been the cheapest for us so far, because we are so well endowed with fossil fuels —the Waterberg is brimming in a sea of coal – has stood us in good stead through the years. At the same time, we have to respond to the modern challenges of climate change, so we have to go the renewable route.
We have had nuclear energy in our country for many years, and it has been deployed quite safely and it has served us very well, albeit at a limited level here in the Cape.
Now new forms of energy have come to the fore: wind, solar, hydro, and biomass. All of these forms of energy can be good contributors to our energy grid and we should never say that we discard them and that we are not interested in them. It is to this end that 4 000 MW has been committed for renewable energy. We have independent power producers who are actively involved in contracts and concessions, and they generate those and then sell them to the national grid.
We are also going to be looking at a mix of energy production as we move forward. But we cannot now say...
Afrikaans:
...nee, onsmoetnieoorkernkrag dink nie. Nee, one moet nie oor hidro-elektrisiteit dink nie. Inteendeel, onsmoetooralles dink...
English:
...because what we want is to have a proper energy mix.
Are we going to bequeath huge sums of debt to our children? The answer is no. We want to safeguard their future and it is for this reason that we want to invest, so that our children’s future could be secure and they can benefit from the economic growth that we will generate through the investments that we make now.
We will obviously want to have as many ideas as we possibly can.
Afrikaans:
As jyaan slim ideëskan dink, bring hullenavore. Onswilhullehoor. Baiedankie.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
|
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, as we come to the end of this session of Questions to the Deputy President
I first of all want to take the opportunity to express our appreciation to the Deputy President, not because he came to reply to questions, but because, even though his responsibilities have changed — and we did not take that into consideration when we compiled our Questions — he still came and replied to questions on issues which are no longer necessarily his responsibility. [Applause.]
I also think that we have had a very good, quiet, respectful audience in the gallery. Thank you very much.
The Council adjourned at 15:12.
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