Hansard: EPC: Debate on Vote No 10 – National Treasury (State Security)
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 23 Jul 2014
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 21
WEDNESDAY, 23 July 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
___________________
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in Committee Room E249 at 10:00.
The House Chairperson, Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 21
START OF DAY
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 10 – National Treasury (State Security):
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson of the session, the hon Frolick; Chairperson of the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence, the hon September; hon Ministers; Deputy Minister of State Security, hon Comrade Ellen Molekane, and other Deputy Ministers; the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party, the hon Doris Dlakude; the chief whip of the ad hoc committee, hon Comrade J J Skosana; hon Members of Parliament and the NCOP; hon members of the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence; our director-general Sonto Kudjoe; the SSA leadership and members; the Inspector-General, Faith Radebe; veterans of the Intelligence services; the leadership of the ANC in the Free State and Mpumalanga; the ANC Youth League in the province of Mpumalanga and the National Task Team, NTT; the broader alliance and the Progressive Youth Alliance; the Mahlobo and Molekane families; distinguished guests, comrades and friends, five days ago we joined the rest of the world in celebrating International Mandela Day. During the state of the nation address, our President, President Jacob Zuma, implored the nation to set aside 67 minutes of their time to clean South Africa in memory of Madiba.
This year's celebration was the first since Madiba's departure on 5 December 2013. In paying tribute to the beloved father of our nation, former President Nelson Mandela, allow me to quote from his book, Long Walk to Freedom:
I have walked that long road to freedom. I have tried not to falter; I have made missteps along the way. But I have discovered the secret that after climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. I have taken a moment here to rest, to steal a view of the glorious vista that surrounds me, to look back on the distance I have come. But I can rest only for a moment, for with freedom comes responsibilities, and I dare not linger, for my long walk has not yet ended.
The contributions that Madiba made to our country, the sacrifices he made for his beliefs, the selfless and tireless manner in which he fought so that you and I could stand here today, free, attest to the fact that our freedom was not free. We do consider ourselves very fortunate to have been led by such a great giant, who strode the globe like a colossus. Madiba was one of the finest leaders of our movement, the ANC, and that Africa has ever produced.
IsiZulu:
Akekho onjengaye.
English:
Faced with the harsh realities of his generation, with OR Tambo, Walter Sisulu and others, Madiba had to respond to the generational call that was eloquently captured by Frantz Fanon, when he said:
Each generation must, out of relative obscurity, discover its mission, fulfil it, or betray it.
This generation knew that in order to advance greatness in humanity they had to make a choice, either to submit or to fight. They chose to fight. This was a very serious choice because Madiba wanted to live a life of selflessness, a life that would change the lives of many who endured a life under the repressive regime of apartheid and colonialism. He dedicated his entire life to serving his people in the quest for freedom, justice and equality.
As a country and a people, we have made significant strides on a journey that we started 20 years ago. We embarked on a hard, long and arduous, but fulfilling, journey to eradicate the legacy of apartheid and colonialism in pursuit of a truly united, nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society. This is the vision of a national, democratic society, as clearly outlined in our Freedom Charter, and it became the cornerstone and bedrock of our constitutional democracy after 1994.
As our father, President Zuma, eloquently said during his state of the nation address, we have a good story to tell. We have managed to undergo a far-reaching phase of our democratic transition. During this first phase, we have restored people's dignity in our country. We have ensured that the government is based on the will of the people, as expressed by the people; and the life of many South Africans has improved. South Africa is indeed a better place to live in now than it was before 1994.
IsiZulu:
INingizimu Afrika ingcono kakhulu namuhla kunayizolo.
English:
We are, however, the first to admit that despite our achievements, a lot more still needs to be done.
IsiZulu:
Inde le ndlela esiyihambayo.
English:
Indeed, ours is a long journey towards the realisation of the kind of society we all envisaged in our founding documents. We have come a long way in stabilising the domestic security situation in our country. In creating enabling conditions for our democracy to flourish, we have created space for citizens to exercise their constitutional rights. At the same time, we have also contributed significantly to the security of our region, the continent, in general, and the globe, in particular.
We have brought to an end the political violence that in the 1980s and early 1990s caused misery among many families. We have eliminated urban terrorism, brought right-wing extremism under control and made many contributions to the security of major events, whether it was the World Cup or any other event we held in our country.
More importantly, in terms of our work we have introduced legislation to ensure that our Intelligence tradecraft is now subjected to the rule of law and constitutionalism, unlike it was before 1994. In addition, we have ensured that our legislature has introduced the legislation of oversight on the work that this department does, so as to avoid any exploitation. Therefore, as we stand today, we have been in a process to conclude our restructuring. We have integrated all the Intelligence services into what is now known as the State Security Agency.
As a department, we are going to build on the work that we have done and on the foundation we have laid over the past 20 years. Over this period, there have been challenges. We are not oblivious to the complexity of the work and the task at hand, but we are committed to delivering on the vision we have set ourselves.
Recently, the ANC was, once again, given an overwhelming mandate by our people to continue with the good story and to make bold decisions for socioeconomic transformation, as part of implementing our national democratic revolution. Our work, as a department, is premised on the mandate given through the manifesto, but, equally, through the National Development Plan, NDP.
We have been in a position to convert this into a programme of action for the government's fifth administration. Our task is to contribute to the medium-term strategic objectives of Outcome 3: All people in South Africa are and feel safe; and Outcome 11: Create a better South Africa, and contribute to a better and safer Africa in a better world.
In the NDP we have set a vision for the work we do in the Security cluster. People living in South Africa should be able to feel safe at home, at school and at work, and enjoy community life free of fear. Women and girls must be able to walk freely in our streets. Children must be able to play safely outside.
In regard to anticorruption activities, agencies that are fighting corruption in our country must be fully resourced and capacitated by 2030, and corruption should have been reduced significantly by then.
We will be able to contribute to those outcomes by ensuring an efficient and effective criminal justice system. We will have to manage South Africa's borders, in their totality, and secure them. We must be able to secure cyberspace. We must ensure domestic stability and reduce corruption, both in the public and private sectors.
We are going to contribute to ensuring that our interests as a country are advanced, that there is peace in our region and on our continent. We are going to ensure that we contribute to supporting the integration of Africa's economy. We are also going to ensure that, through our work, we support work on South-South co-operation and include friends in the North.
In December last year, our Cabinet approved the National Security Strategy for South Africa. This places an emphasis on the issues of our territorial integrity and asserting the authority of the state. For us to discharge our mandate, we have begun a process of improving the capacity of the Intelligence services in the country. We do this because we appreciate the role of Intelligence in securing the state, its sovereignty, people, infrastructure and resources.
We want to make the Intelligence services more relevant, effective, and robust in order for them to deal with the evolving nature of all threats, both in our country and globally. We are going to improve the co-ordination of operations and exchange of information. More importantly, we will promote innovation, research and development in our operations.
We are now at the stage where we are going to introduce and review regulations under our three pieces of legislation that were amended by Parliament last year, through the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Act. This process will make us more relevant in terms of 21st century challenges. When this process in the department is completed, we will then allow a process of working with you to start the public consultations. We do this because the threats against us have become so complex that it has forced us to adopt a different approach to human, financial and material resourcing.
Our department is also going to prioritise the attraction of new skills in the new areas of threat to enable us to deliver on our priorities for the next five years. Meanwhile, we are going to be paying more attention to the reskilling of existing personnel in the department. This will make them better equipped to deal with the emerging trends that we face as a country, as a continent and the world. In giving effect to that, we, as a department, are also going to be paying a great deal of attention to the instability that we see in understanding its dynamics.
We are going to make a concerted effort to combat corruption, organised crime, illegal migration and illicit economic activities, while fostering conditions to the advancement of energy, food, water and environmental security. As we have said, these are our priorities as a country.
We must also emphasise that national security is not only about securing the state. It also about creating the proper conditions for nation-building, the development of a national identity, common patriotism, and the development of our country to become a prosperous, thriving democracy.
We are extremely cognisant of the fact that the security of South Africa is intrinsically linked to the security of our region, our continent and the globe. We will strengthen our early warning systems to respond adequately to all those international and domestic forms of terrorism and extremism, as well as to address cyber-attacks and securing our cyberspace and, very importantly, managing our national borders.
Talking about our borders, our concerns here are because crimes such as drug trafficking, human smuggling, rhino poaching and identity and travel document fraud can be linked to the cross-border movement of people and goods. We will then strengthen our interventions through close co-ordination with our partners to secure our aviation space, and maritime and land border environments. That will be our task.
We are confronting corruption and will put more emphasis on rooting it out. This is because it has a negative impact on the economy and it erodes the confidence our people have in the state.
To pursue our vision, we want to empower citizens to hold public and private officials to account. Leaders must have high ethical standards. We need to have a comprehensive and resilient anti-corruption system.
The mandate we have to do this covers, but is not limited to, actions such as accelerating the implementation of our National Vetting Strategy; improving the perceptions of South Africa in terms of our international standing; and dealing with violent protests that threaten both domestic stability and the authority of the state. People have a right to protest, but they have no right to disrupt others. It is a hard-earned right and it can't be undermined by those who are using it for other purposes.
We will try to find lasting solutions to curb violent industrial action and violence in the transport sector. We will help our colleagues there with the primary focus on trying to stabilise the mining, transport and other sectors, like the environmental sector, that is also under attack in terms of poaching.
We will put more effort into the issues surrounding illicit mining, which has become very complex and multifaceted, so that we, as the state, can respond. Through our existing structures, we will also work with our Security cluster to deal with the violence that is perpetrated against foreign nationals, so that South Africa becomes a better place for everyone.
Organised crime has changed in form. It has become violent, and we are going to become radical and extremely vigilant in dealing with its sophistication and diversification in terms of our operations. Our concern is that if these matters are not attended to, they then result in an illicit economy that continues to pose a threat to our country.
We note that good progress has been made in combating the trade in illicit tobacco and cigarettes. Now, however, our focus must be on illicit financial flows that are appearing in our country and on our continent. Billions of rands are lost in the process. Working with the financial Intelligence services and on the reports we are receiving, at this stage, as a country, we are losing close to R1 billion per annum through this particular work. Therefore, this department is going to strengthen its economic Intelligence because that is the next threat we face.
Working with our partners in the International Co-operation Trade, Peace and Security cluster, we remain steadfast in our conviction that the prosperity and advancement of South Africa is inextricably linked to that of our continent. Therefore, this department will continue to play an important role by providing dynamic, reliable and timeous intelligence to advance our national security and interests.
As we stand here today, we know there are problems in Mali, the Central African Republic, CAR, Nigeria, Libya, Egypt, and all over the world, but we want to be part of that particular solution through the right structures that this department is participating in.
As I said earlier on, we have prioritised cyberspace security. It must be secured. At a national level, I have indicated that we are losing a lot of money – close to R1 billion – and we cannot fold our arms and say no. As an example, you cannot win a competition if you have not entered one. If someone says you have won R1 million, how do you respond to that? How do you win a competition that you have not entered?
We are going to strengthen our co-operation in this space in the region, with the African Union, AU, our Brics partners, and other partners we need to work with. We are putting together a coherent, seamless information regulatory framework which will be aligned to national and international standards. Through this, therefore, we will create a domain of information that will be given the necessary attention to regulate this space.
During this administration, we have taken the decision to go "big bang" – and we need your support – to improve our technological capability, as a department, but more importantly, to professionalise the Intelligence services. We have undertaken and finalised a benchmarking exercise to review the remuneration framework for staff in the department, in order to recruit and retain the best calibre of professionals in the service.
We are also very pleased for you to know that we are now giving impetus to the work of the veterans' association. It is at an advanced stage now. The veterans of our family will now be used by the department in important areas such as training, coaching and mentoring.
We are going to strengthen our internal capacity by engaging institutions of education to secure the future of our Intelligence community. We want to make the Intelligence services a career of choice for many young South Africans. We don't only listen to people; we need engineers, financial experts, and others. We are also going to ensure that internal training and development will be prioritised.
Members of our agency will be helped with all the necessary resources to discharge their responsibilities and this leadership – the Deputy Minister, the director-general and I – will ensure that we improve the organisational culture of our department. Good performance will be recognised in the department. In the same vein, there will be consequences for poor performance and ill-discipline.
In the spirit of celebrating our 20 years of freedom and democracy, allow me to pay tribute to His Excellency President Zuma and all the current and past members of our community who have made countless sacrifices to enable us to enjoy the fruits of their labour in a stable, peaceful and democratic South Africa.
Our responsibility is to ensure that we carry this proud tradition forward through the provision of relevant, timely and reliable intelligence, as well as building sustainable organisational capacity to secure many more generations to come.
As the department, we are equal to the task. We are working with our government partners and the people of this country to protect the integrity and authority of the state, to collaborate our collective efforts in delivering the objectives of the ANC's manifesto and the National Development Plan, and ensure that South Africa remains a nation at work for the protection and advancement of its most prized asset, her people.
Let me take this opportunity to thank our President and the ANC leadership for the trust bestowed upon me and Deputy Minister to lead this department; the ad hoc committee that sat yesterday and today, to do this important task; my Deputy Minister, Comrade Molekane, for the support I receive from her; my predecessor, Minister Comrade Cwele, for his support, the smooth handover and induction; my director-general, Sonto Kudjoe; the two directors Ntombela and Siswana; and the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, Co-ordinator, Mr Dlomo; the Inspector-General, Faith Radebe; and the entire leadership of the SSA and its members.
Lastly, let me thank my family, my father, iNkosi uMahlobo nomama wami, my lovely wife, my brothers and sisters, the ANC in Mpumalanga, the Free State and all over the country, the entity of the youth league and the broader alliance for their continued support and guidance.
We will remain resolute and unflinching in the face of opposition, and focus on achieving the goals we have set, as government, to advance our beautiful country, a country full of possibilities. We want to invite and implore all South Africans to be part of our national effort to secure the security of our country, her integrity, her people, our infrastructure and resources.
IsiZulu:
Nawe uyiphoyisa, ngeke sikwazi ukugada abantu abangaphezu kwezigidi ezingama-53.
English:
I humbly submit this Budget Vote of the Department of State Security for your consideration and approval. Together, we move South Africa forward. God bless South Africa, her sons and her daughters. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms C C SEPTEMBER
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 22
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister of State Security, hon members, the Inspector-General of Intelligence, Faith Radebe, the entire family of state security here today and all guests present, allow me to firstly congratulate the Minister and Deputy Minister for the important task that has been bestowed upon them in that they have been given the task to make sure that South Africa moves forward in a safe and secure manner.
I rise in support of the Budget Vote on behalf of the ANC. In his state of the nation address last month on the opening of this Fifth Parliament, President Jacob Zuma set the country on a continuous five-year course where he stated that this programme of action he was tabling in Parliament is aimed at making South Africa a better place for all.
He continued by saying that the National Development Plan, NDP, and the Presidency's 20-Year Review highlight the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment because it continues to affect the lives of the people of South Africa. As we enter the second phase of our transition from apartheid to a national democratic society, we have to embark on a radical socioeconomic transformation to push back the triple challenges he referred to.
In order to do that, he said that what we have to do as a country is to meet with social partners so that we deliberate on, amongst others things, the wage inequality that is still in the country; to investigate from our side, as government, the possibility of making sure that we bring stability in relation to bringing in a national minimum wage as one of the key mechanisms to reduce income inequality; and to continue to make sure that we improve the living conditions of mine workers in South Africa and therefore making sure that we monitor the compliance that we should have in the Mining Charter targets that relate to improving the living conditions of workers.
He also said that what we need to do in these five years is to make sure that the low levels of investments which are a key constraint to economic growth and must be tackled. Therefore, the determination should be there to work with the private sector to remove those obstacles we have in investments.
Chairperson, he also decisively informed this country that we need to deal with the energy constraints so that we create an environment conducive to growth and make sure that we bring about radical transformation in this country through especially the energy sector, amongst other sectors, and bring in a range of different things there.
In order to do that, he said - and this is important -that we will be spending R847 billion on the infrastructure on projects that will be started. This in our view sets the parameters in the ANC government to make sure that we bring stability and security to this country by dealing with the most important and fundamental issues that will move the country forward in this instance.
It is a known fact that many people love this country and continue to visit it. What we need to do is to make sure that we devolve this down to the level of local government to make sure that our people continue to have pleasant local government.
He stated, and I quote:
As the ANC we see this programme as one that plays a role in the stabilisation of the country. It provides the necessary security state that we should have.
Chairperson, as I end the quote of what President Zuma said, maybe we should be reminded about what we set down for ourselves as the ANC when then we spoke about and knew that in South Africa that the ANC was going to be the government of the day. We set down in our Ready to Govern what we think we should have as an approach to Intelligence in this country.
When we think of the past 20 years in this country, it remains relevant that the ANC believes that the role of the national Intelligence should be, of course, to gather, collate and evaluate information that pertains to the security of the state and its citizenry. Therefore the role of the Intelligence service shall be always to act in the interest of the country as a whole.
The ANC is committed to the principles which underpin such a continuous approach that we have started and therefore, in this approach to security in a democratic South Africa, we agree that-
South Africa should be committed to resolving, as part of this approach to intelligence, internal and external conflicts, primarily through nonviolent means. This message needs to go to Palestine and Israel too.
We agree, as the ANC, that the approach to Intelligence should be that-
National security and personal security shall be sought primarily through efforts to meet the social, political, economic and cultural needs of the people;
South Africa shall pursue peaceful and co-operative relations with neighbouring states; ...
As the hon Minister has articulated.
We also believe in Ready to Govern that-
The security institutions shall be bound by the principle of civil supremacy and subject to public scrutiny and open debate; ...
The hon Minister has also alluded to that and we, of course, as the ANC, support that. We further believe that-
The security institutions shall reflect the national and gender composition of South African society.
In this regard, a programme of affirmative action must continue in your department, hon Minister. I am look around to see whether indeed you have started to achieve that and the answer is no.
The security institutions shall be accountable and answerable to the public through a democratically elected parliament; ...
This Parliament stands out in the world as having achieved the kind of legislation that we have put together to make you answerable. Nowhere else in the world do they allow the kind of legislation that we have and for that the ANC should be applauded - as well as for having achieved accountability and being answerable to a democratically elected Parliament.
The security institutions shall respect human rights, non-racialism and democracy, and act in a nondiscriminatory manner towards the citizenry.
We agree, as the ANC, when we said in Ready to Govern, and I continue to quote:
The security institutions shall be politically non-partisan; The role of the security forces shall not be usurped by private security companies. The private security industry shall be regulated with a view to ensuring that the industry performs its functions in a manner that is consistent with democracy;
We continue to say that the principles of intelligence must continue to be an Intelligence agency that respects the rights of all South Africans when they engage in lawful political activity and, above all, make sure that the regulation by the relevant legislation, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution of South Africa and an appropriate code of conduct must prevail.
The ANC believes that national and regional security should not be restricted to military, police and Intelligence matters, but should be seen as having political and economic dimensions - and I agree with you, hon Minister, that we also include environmental dimensions here.
Therefore, we applaud what we have put together in answering the ANC's quest of making sure that we have this approach to Intelligence and the fact that in the National Development Plan South Africa and the ANC-led government has risen to that call by making sure that we have a long-term strategic plan.
Of course, we must be reminded that the NDP serves four broad objectives to create this stable democratic South Africa. It makes sure that there is an overarching goal for what we want to achieve by 2030 and that it's not something for tomorrow only, that we build consensus on the key obstacles to achieve these goals and what needs to be done to overcome these obstacles.
It provides a shared, long-term, strategic framework within which more detailed planning can take place in order to advance the long-term goals set out in the National Development Plan.
We are reminded that the NDP says that between now and 2030, we need to move towards a state that is more capable, more professional and more responsive to the needs of its citizens. Therefore we support your efforts, hon Minister, that we have to make sure that we professionalise this sector too.
The NDP reminds us that rapid progress is needed in those areas where state capacity is at its weakest, so that this can eliminate poverty and inequality in South Africa. What better way is there than what has been put together to start the National development Plan in South Africa through the ANC's manifesto, which we put to the country and for which the people have elected us to come to this Parliament?
We have promised our people in our manifesto that in order for us to continue to build a safe and secure state, we must build an inclusive economy that creates jobs; transform our rural areas; ensure decent living conditions and sustainable human settlements; improve and expand education and training; ensure quality health care for all; expand comprehensive social security; and make sure that we fight corruption and crime.
Therefore, the efforts which are being made in this regard - which your own department is going to put in place, Minister - are extremely important to make sure that we continue to deal with corruption in this country.
We also said that we must make sure that we build a united nation and promote social cohesion in this country. Social cohesion is an important element to stability and security in this country and therefore an important element to make sure that we all continue to build this in the country.
We have said that what we must make sure of is that underdevelopment, poverty, lack of democratic participation and the abuse of human rights must be continuously regarded as grave threats to the security of our people, since they invariably give rise to conflict between individuals, communities and countries and they indeed threaten the security of the state.
Chairperson and hon members, as the ANC our view is that we must continue to cling to those values that inspired the founding mothers and fathers of this nation: Nelson Mandela, Oliver Tambo, Ruth First and many of our leaders. The lack of these values that they have given us and being pushed aside by other less idealistic interests is the real threat to society.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D J STUBBE
Ms C C SEPTEMBER
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 23
Mr D J STUBBE: Hon Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members, members of the Intelligence community and members of the public, finding the right balance between secrecy and constitutional principles and the rule of law is a major challenge for our Intelligence department.
While South Africa has implemented a model system on paper, in practice the implementation of our system has fallen short in many aspects.
In Canada, the McDonald Commission argued that security should not be regarded as more important than democracy, for the fundamental purpose of security is the preservation of our democratic system.
It is thus important for us to continually reassess our role as Parliamentarians in ensuring that there is as much transparency and accountability as possible over our Intelligence services.
Intelligence agencies not only protect but can also threaten democracy. The threat may come from invasions of privacy by information gathering and surveillance; by direct attempts to manipulate the political process or by control of information, infiltration of political movements, pressure groups and trade unions.
While it is widely accepted that official communications and operations can only be transparent to a limited extent, to ensure that the relevant operations, sources and assets are not compromised within the modified system of accountability the need for rigorous control and oversight is greater, not less.
Internationally, best practice for parliamentary oversight is that of a closed committee, and provided that such a committee establishes a reputation for independence and thoroughness, this need not affect its legitimacy. However, despite the best intention of the architects of our system and strong powers given to it in legislation, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence has not achieved such a level of legitimacy.
International best practice, in designing oversight mechanisms for Intelligence services, focuses on the need to establish mechanisms to prevent political abuse while providing effective governance of the agencies; upholding the rule of law; and ensuring the proportionate use of exceptional powers in order to protect human rights.
Further investigative techniques should be proportionate to the security threat under investigation and weighed against the possible damage to civil liberties and democratic structures. Less intrusive alternatives should be used wherever possible; and control of discretion should be layered so that the greater the invasion of privacy, the higher the level of necessary authorisation.
In democracy no area of state activity should be a no-go zone for the legislature, including security sectors – subject to the Constitution. Parliamentary involvement gives legitimacy and direct democratic accountability. It can help to ensure that the security organisations are serving the state as a whole and protecting the Constitution rather than narrower political and sectional interests.
International commentators have argued that while the institutions of oversight and accountability for the Intelligence function in South Africa would appear to be strong on the surface, upon further examination these can be found to be weak and problematic at best.
The problem has to some degree been the politicisation of the Intelligence process and the development of parallel Intelligence structures, given the historical association of the Intelligence services. However, the other problem has been the lack of reporting by the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, and indeed the failure of the committee to make use of all the powers given to it by law.
Since the formation of the JSCI and the enactment of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act 40 of 1994, the annual reports of the Committee have always been late, in clear breach of the law.
It was only at the very end of the Fourth Parliament in March 2014 that the committee finally tabled its annual reports for the periods 2010-11 and 2011-12, with the most recent annual reports still being under consideration. This is unacceptable given the legislative provisions on annual reporting of the committees.
However, not only are these reports tabled late, they are never subjected to debate in the House, while it is crucial to ensure that security is protected in the process of parliamentary oversight of the Intelligence services. Internationally, it has widely become accepted that higher levels of public debate on certain aspects of the Intelligence services are necessary for strong democratic oversight to prevail.
Indeed, in the United Kingdom, UK, it has now become accepted that parliamentary questions in the House which mention Intelligence services, but which do not seek information about individuals or operations, are acceptable. Why then is it not common practice in this House to debate the Annual Reports of the JSCI since they contain declassified information?
Also, given the powers of the committee to provide special reports to the House in addition to annual reports, why have we only had one such report in the Fourth Parliament? And this special report, the Public Works Team Report which was supposedly classified and subsequently released to the public was a complete whitewash.
This one special report served to prove that South Africa's legislative framework for Intelligence oversight is indeed strong in theory but weak in practice. The report by the JSCI served only to support the findings of the Department of Public Works. It failed to provide critical analysis, and when viewed against the Public Protector's report into the matter, was shown to be a political tool to protect the President and not the oversight mechanism intended by legislation to uphold the rule of law and democratic principles.
Given the importance of strengthening the oversight of the Intelligence services and the need to ensure that the agency upholds our constitutional democracy, the DA intends to introduce a Private Member's Bill in this the Fifth Parliament to attempt to provide more safeguards against delays and abuse within the Oversight Act, and to provide greater alignment between our system and International Best Practices.
This will include ensuring that the various legislative provisions, such as the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and the Oversight Act, which impact on the annual reporting of the committee, are aligned to prevent unnecessary delays and to create stricter time limits on the declassification of information by the executive. Changes will also be considered in regard to the legal requirements for the executive to state in general what is omitted from any published report and the reason for the omission. This will enable political scrutiny of such decisions to take place through the normal parliamentary process.
Is South Africa to be held to higher standards than other countries? I think yes, if for no other reason than that the architects of South Africa's post-1994 Intelligence dispensation stated that they would hold themselves to far higher standards than not only the system that they were looking to replace, but also international standards for the field.
Currently, it will be difficult to grade South Africa in terms of the strength of its accountability and oversight mechanisms for Intelligence.
The Intelligence services are barely independent from the executive. Indeed, in some senses they could be seen as slave to the executive's policies and interests and indeed the very mechanism created to provide accountability. The JSCI has itself become subject to such control.
For the future of democratic control over our Intelligence services urgent change is required. I thank you.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 24
Mr D J STUBBE
IsiZulu:
Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Mhlonishwa Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe nePhini lakhe kanye nabo bonke abahlonishwa abakhona ...
English:
With the advent of democracy in 1994, the principle of parliamentary supremacy was replaced by the principle of constitutional supremacy. This was a significant transformation because, according to the principle of parliamentary supremacy, no court of law could pronounce on the laws passed by Parliament. More than anything, the principle of constitutional supremacy ushered in the notions and tenets of accountability for both Parliament and the organs of state.
Section 2 of the Constitution states:
This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic; law or conduct inconsistent with it is invalid, and the obligations imposed by it must be fulfilled.
The Constitution imposes not only accountability, but also responsibilities and obligations. One of these obligations is enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Section 12 (1)(c) says, and I quote:
Everyone has the right to freedom and security of the person which includes the right to be free from all forms of violence from either public or private sources.
The state, through its representative government, therefore has an obligation to make the Constitution a living document by ensuring that its requirements and obligations are fulfilled.
Again, the preamble to the Constitution ends with the words, "May God protect our people". We are, however, familiar with the adage, God helps those who help themselves. In lsiZulu, we say, "ldlozi Liyabhekelwa". It is important that the state, through its organs such as the Department of State Security, must have the capability of detecting potential threats to the freedom and welfare of the state and its people. One of the factors which would lend this capability to the Department of State Security is budgetary allocation; hence the IFP supports this budget.
Afrikaans:
Agb Voorsitter, baie dankie.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 24
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chairperson; Chairperson of the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence; hon Minister of State Security; hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers present; Deputy Chief Whip of the ANC; Chief Whip of the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence; hon Members of Parliament and the NCOP; Intelligence veterans; ladies and gentlemen; and comrades and friends, over the past 20 years, South Africa has taken its rightful place as an independent sovereign state in the family of nations and is a respected and active member of the international community.
It has repositioned itself in the region, the African continent and the world and has the ability to further its own national interests and those of the continent.
As a country we continue to be an influential and leading member of the international community and strive to be a contributor to the reform of systems of global governance to advance South Africa's national interests. Paramount to this is the quest for peace and security, sustainable development, democracy, the rule of law, human rights for a prosperous Africa and a fair and just world.
While we have peace and stability in our country, threats to our sovereign integrity have become more complex, emanating from the changing global environment. The President of our country His Excellency President Jacob Zuma aptly captured the global environment in his address to the Intelligence community in 2012 when he said:
The radical transformation occurring globally has narrowed the distinction between foreign and domestic threats. World borders are now softer than ever. Whether it is transnational crime, terrorism or the global political situation, the international security situation requires all states to remain vigilant and to co-operate in protecting respective national security interests and their citizens.
Outcome 11 in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, requires us to create a better South Africa and contribute to a better and safer Africa in a better world. Therefore, our role as State Security is to understand and influence the external environment as it impacts on our ability to deliver on our mandate. Our interaction on the African continent, among other things, has to be the achievement of a developed and economically integrated Africa, as enshrined in Vision 2063 of the African Union.
The African Union Assembly of the African Heads of State and Government has declared 2014 the Year of Agriculture and Food Security in Africa. Through this declaration, the AU is placing an emphasis on human security and encourages its member states to take active steps to increase food security, reduce poverty, promote economic growth and create wealth through agricultural development and innovation.
At the heart of the AU declaration is the desire to address the structural paradox on the continent - where robust economic growth is occurring in parallel with declining per capita food production. The State Security Agency will support the efforts of our government towards the realisation of human security as it will bring about a more peaceful, secure and stable Africa.
Outcome 3 in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework requires us to ensure that all South Africans are and feel safe. This outcome has to be understood in the context of what the Constitution also requires us further to deliver, which is that South Africans as individuals and as a nation should live as equals in peace and harmony and are free from fear or want.
It is in response to this that this fifth ANC administration has identified radical economic transformation as a strategic objective in the second phase of democratic transition. This is informed by the ANC manifesto, the National Development Plan, NDP, and our government's Programme of Action.
The overwhelming show of confidence by our people in the national and provincial elections held in May this year imposes the responsibility and obligation on this administration to accelerate the implementation of a radical socioeconomic transformation agenda without fear or favour.
In his state of the nation address in May 2014 the President emphasised that-
The economy takes centre stage in this programme. It remains our strong belief that the most effective weapon in the campaign against poverty is the creation of decent work and that creating work requires faster economic growth.
In this respect, the State Security Agency, SSA, will strengthen partnerships and co-operation with its partners in the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security and International Co-operation, Trade and Security clusters, broader government, the private sector and civil society to ensure that our efforts in realising our economic goals are achieved without hindrance.
I am pleased with the interaction the Ministry had with the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence where the department presented our 2014 to 2019 strategic plan. They raised concerns and identified areas of focus, to all of which we will devote our attention. We will continue to devote our energies to improving governance, accountability and compliance in the State Security Agency.
Coupled with this are our planned policy initiatives, which include a comprehensive review of the Intelligence framework, commencing with the review of the White Paper on Intelligence and the implementation of the National Security Strategy.
There should be no discomfort about the implementation of our National Security Strategy, as it does not mean that we are going about setting up a security state; rather it is about creating proper conditions for nation-building, the development of a national identity and common patriotism, as well as the development of our country to become a prosperous and thriving democracy.
By its very nature, Intelligence work uses covert means and it may appear to outsiders that it does not add value to government objectives. The contrary is true. Our reason for existence is to deliver timeous, topical and accurate policy; relevant information that informs, forecasts and advises on dangers; opportunities and critical developments.
As the State Security Agency we shall continue to raise awareness amongst our people to demystify the nature of our work, as it is the backbone of a stable government.
In advancing our task of creating an environment in which all South Africans are, and feel, safe, we have heeded the President's call to root out corruption and to address the weaknesses that undermine the authority of the state as well as the integrity of government's procurement systems.
Through the JCPS cluster, we will contribute to the institutionalisation of a multidisciplinary anticorruption regime which would provide for more severe penalties as a deterrent against the commission of such offences in both the public and private sector. In the State Security Agency, we are committed to positioning ourselves as an institution that carries out its mandate free of undue influence, being exemplary in our governance and inculcating a culture of zero tolerance for corruption in our ranks.
In recent months we have observed developments on the platinum belt. The termination of the strike in the platinum belt is welcomed. One of the key lessons that should be learnt or drawn from the events in the platinum belt is that social partners, business and labour must broaden the channels of communication and pursue a broad, national compact to overcome the prevailing structural impediments to a positive employment environment in the mining sector.
Our mandate requires that we stay ahead of changes within our environment in so far as it relates to security and our tradecraft. This requires us to evaluate our core skills, competencies and enhance our professionalism. To this end, we will prioritise the development of human resources to create a work environment that is conducive to excellence, where serving members and new recruits are encouraged to develop to their full potential and flourish.
We will pay special attention to the recruitment of talented, patriotic youth through our cadet programme and utilise our veterans to impart the skills and knowledge of our trade craft to these new recruits. This will be a deliberate effort to respond to government's call to create sustainable work opportunities for our people, in particular the youth.
The values that we will inculcate among in the new recruits and our ranks, in general, will be based on the words of one of our predecessors, notably the late, former Minister of Intelligence, Joe Nhlanhla, when he said, and I quote:
Now more than ever, we must demand more from ourselves and build with pride a culture within the Intelligence services that holds high the goals of incorruptibility, credibility, integrity and maximum effectiveness. We must accept nothing less.
I take this opportunity to express our gratitude to the Intelligence veterans community for their continued readiness to support us in responding to our call whenever we need extra capacity. They remain a valuable asset to our nation.
In conclusion, I dedicate this speech to the women stalwarts of our glorious movement, women whom I regard as gallant heroines, women who inspired me in my political growth and sharpening of the Intelligence tradecraft, They are: Seaparankoe Ruth Mompati, the late Mme Kate Molale, the late Florence Mophosho, the late Sisi Nomava Ntshangase and the late Sisi Maud Manyosi. I will forever be indebted to them for their wisdom and encouragement.
I concur with all the issues that Minister David Mahlobo raised in his speech and I stand ready to support him in advancing the goals of this ANC fifth administration. I am grateful for all the support I have received from the Chairperson of the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence, hon Connie September, the director-general, Ambassador Santo Kudjoe and her management group and the Inspector-General of Intelligence, Ambassador Faith Radebe. Lastly, I thank most heartily the Mahlobo and Molekane families for their presence at this Budget Vote, especially my son, Tumi.
I request that the House adopt the Vote of the State Security Agency. I thank you. [Time Expired.]
Ms D E DLAKUDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 25
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (Ms D E Dlakude): Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, the state security family and our guests present in this House, I want to begin my address by contextualising the critical imperatives of state Intelligence and by refocusing the attention of this House on the terrorist attack that took place in Kenya a few months ago.
It is against the backdrop of this incident in question that the Intelligence trajectory of this nation leaves us with a country-specific reflection of the crucial imperatives of the Intelligence machinery in African and the South African context.
On 21 September 2013, unidentified gunmen attacked the upmarket Westgate shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya. The attack, which lasted until 24 September, resulted in at least 67 deaths, including that of four of the attackers. In this attack, over 175 people were reportedly wounded in the mass shooting, with all of the gunmen reportedly killed.
The Islamist group, al-Shabaab, claimed responsibility for the incident, which it characterised as retribution for the Kenyan military's deployment in Somalia. This hateful attack on the innocent people of Kenya is just one incident in time, which demonstrates how critical stability and national security is for any government and society in the world.
This attack on the people of Kenya reissued a well-understood emergency alert across the global spectrum about the imperatives of suppressing threats to peace and security, as identified by Intelligence reports.
In that moment, we understood yet again that a failure to effectively utilise Intelligence mechanisms has the ability to make any country vulnerable, which is a costly consequence for any nation. The task of maintaining safety and security is therefore a critical factor on which the success of all our government's programmes hinges.
It is for this reason that the ANC-led government is deeply committed and unrelenting in our resolve to improve conditions of safety and security for the benefit of our people. The state security is responsible for providing government with Intelligence on domestic, foreign and potential threats to national stability, the constitutional order and the safety and wellbeing of its people.
This enables government to implement and improve policies to deal with potential threats and to better understand existing threats.
State Intelligence mechanisms also allow government to take defensive action in order to maintain peace and stability in the country.
In this regard, crime ntelligence is a critical component that assists the SA Police Service, SAPS, to achieve this end. As the principal law-enforcement body, SAPS is responsible for preventing, combating and investigating crime in order to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the country and their property and to uphold and enforce law.
Many positive spin-offs are derived from crime intelligence reports, which make a positive contribution to ensuring that our people reside in a peaceful environment, free from fear and intimidation. Some of these spin-offs include the activated surge of foreign, direct investments, peace, stability and national security. There is also a tremendous economic benefit that is activated. This economic advantage also enables us to open up the economy to create more jobs for our people.
In the context of a growing democracy such as ours, these Intelligence imperatives are germane in advancing the policy and developmental agenda of our country.
Despite our understanding of the context within which we function as a nation, which has to be vigilant in detecting and suppressing security threats, we witnessed a deep level of mistrust when we dealt with the Protection of State Information Bill, when some of the hon members present in this House called it the "Secrecy Bill". I do not understand, when it comes to that, why South African people would want to strip our government naked.
In the South African context, issues of mistrust originate from the fact that apartheid exploited the Intelligence state apparatus, in order to pursue an agenda of oppression and systematic genocide against our people. Under the apartheid regime, the landscape of Intelligence and its underlying facets of surveillance and monitoring merely functioned for the exclusive purpose of carrying out attacks and suppressing those who were opposing them.
This mistrust in the reform of the state Intelligence machinery is also a phenomenon of both developed and emerging democracies. A study conducted by the Routledge, Taylor and Francis Group on this issue of Intelligence reform in developing democracies, such as Brazil and Romania, sheds light on this matter. The findings of this study revealed that the effort to reform Intelligence in newer democracies is an extremely challenging task.
This is due to the fact that all democracies, both new and well established, are based on accountability. They require transparency, including working within the rule of law and respecting human rights, checks and balances and defined mandates.
In addition, Intelligence at some level requires secrecy to be effective, which negates to some degree both accountability and transparency. In the context of security democracy, all democracies must grapple, as best as they can, with balancing transparency and secrecy.
This contextual background affirms the point that developing democracies have to deal with the effects of mistrust created by the oppressive regimes, which previously governed in such countries. It is, therefore, imperative to begin to deal with issues of mistrust in a manner that will allow our nation to appreciate the fundamental role of the Intelligence mechanisms employed for the stability of our country.
During this poignant era of transition in our country, we must emphatically reiterate that the National Development Plan, NDP, is the blueprint for development and achieving radical economic growth. In an overview by the World Bank on South Africa, some key observations were posited as key drivers for attaining far-reaching results.
This overview recognised the priorities identified by the NDP for raising employment through faster economic growth, improving the quality of education, skills development, innovation and building the capacity of the state to play a developmental and transformative role.
It further states that these priorities are interlinked with progress in one area, while supporting advances in another. It went on to conclude by reiterating that sustainable increases in employment will require a faster-growing economy and the removal of structural impediments such as poor quality of education and spatial settlement patterns that exclude the majority.
The challenge of the service delivery protests is an issue of great concern that we cannot allow to foster during this fifth term of Parliament.
The World Bank also made observations concerning the impediments of strike action when it stated that service delivery protests suggest that parts of the population have become disillusioned with the pace of reform. It further pronounced that the wildcat strikes in the mining, energy, transport and farming sectors have put into question labour and business relations in the country. It then recommended that the state would need to improve its service delivery efficiency by enhancing its capabilities and strengthening the skills profile of public servants.
It is on this basis of our character and reputation as a nation that we are able to draw investment. It is against the backdrop of stability and growth that our nation stands to thrive. It is on this basis of economic growth that we are able to widen the scope for the benefit of more of our people. We therefore need to deal effectively with service delivery and labour grievances, as failure to do so will taint the good reputation we have worked so hard to attain, since the advent of democracy in 1994.
The onus is therefore on the House to provide the leadership impetus that would ensure we employ the right people with the correct set of skills and qualifications in all Public Service appointments for the benefit of our people. This will go a long way in rebuilding trust with our people, particularly with regard to service delivery.
The rot of corruption is also a major impediment to stability and growth in our country. Corruption is one of the foremost triggers of service delivery strikes in South Africa. It is a gross injury to the dignity of our people that resources meant to enhance the quality of life of our people are redirected into the hands of criminals. This condition is compounded by the fact that service delivery strikes tend to be violent in nature, leading to the damage of civilian and government properties.
The ANC has posited a decisive stance in dealing with corruption at its 2012 Mangaung Conference. Resolutions adopted in this regard stipulate the following, and I quote:
As the leaders of society, ANC members in every sphere and corner of this country need to be champions of the anticorruption campaigns. The ANC should take tougher action against corruption. Systems to detect and act against corruption should be strengthened. There should be greater co-operation across the spheres of government in dealing with corruption.
This is a clear call by the ANC that all our people should stand firmly united against the deplorable effects of corruption. This 20th year of democracy assuredly offers an opportunity for all of us to move in a concerted manner, in order to eradicate corruption and its retrogressive effects in South Africa.
I want to conclude by positing the fact that stability on the African continent also contributes to the overall stability of our nation. According to an analysis by 24/7 Wall St in 2011, world peace improved for the first time in three years. Incidents of terrorism fell and the global economic downturn decreased violence by reducing the amount countries spent on military budgets. However, while many parts of the world improved, others got worse as a result of rising commodity costs, increased protests and internal conflicts.
24/7 Wall St identified the Central African Republic, CAR, as the least peaceful country on the African continent. This situation is exacerbated by an easy access to small arms and high level of organised internal conflict. The CAR forces, which is the country's national military, has been relatively ineffective in protecting citizens from rebel group attacks and has contributed to human rights violations.
South Africa plays a very proactive role in ensuring peace and stability in other African countries. We are driven to intervene in these countries in order to ensure that the dream of an African renaissance is achieved. I want to conclude my address by articulating my support and endorsement of the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D M GUMEDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 26
Ms D E DLAKUDE
Mr D M GUMEDE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, esteemed ladies and gentlemen, good morning. Before I get to my speech, I see Inkosi uMahlobo ...
IsiZulu:
...ngiyabingelela baba. Bengingakwazi kahle kodwa manje sengiyakwazi. Ngiyabonga baba.
English:
Our country, South Africa, is beautiful and great. We have seen many great people touch the soil of South Africa because it is a great country. Many, like the leader of Cuba, the leader of the USA and Lionel Messi, have come to South Africa, while many, many others have wished to visit South Africa.
South Africa is a diverse country and in its diversity it has a number of colourful cultures and tasty dishes. When you go to Durban you will get its hot, spicy curry. When you go to the Indian Ocean you will find wonderful, warm beaches. When you go inland you get braaivleis [barbecue], pap [maize meal], as well as the warm climate.
When you go to the east you get umngqusho [samp and beans] and you will see whales, white sharks and lions, and you will enjoy the beauty of our wonderful land, South Africa. If you go west to the tip of Africa, that is where you will find Cape Town, where you will get bobotie, snoek, white sharks and whales, and you will see the beauty of South Africa, our wonderful country.
As wonderful as South Africa is, it needs to be safe and secure in order for us to enjoy the wonders of our beautiful country, South Africa. Yet, few people ask, who is behind this safety, and who is behind this security which we continue to enjoy? We know that the USA has experienced some instances of terrorism. We know it has happened in Nigeria, Kenya, Libya and also Russia, with the black widow. I think it was in Russia where there was this black widow amongst terrorists that terrorised people in a theatre.
It is very rare that we experience terrifying incidents here in South Africa. We rarely get incidents of terrorism, except perhaps when there was an attempt at terrorist attacks during the days of People Against Gangsterism and Drugs, Pagad. We are happy to say that leaders of Pagad are on the inside right now as we speak. However, that does not mean that we do not have to be vigilant. We thank the State Security Agency, SSA, amongst other entities, which is responsible for our safety and security.
Terrorism destroys the economy wherever it is experienced, particularly small economies. That means it destroys jobs, economic growth and tourism. All of this impacts negatively on economic activity which would allow us to collect taxes to pay grants, to build our roads, to provide water to our households and to provide houses with electricity and lighting during winter and summer.
In South Africa, besides our security officials in blue and our Defence Force, we know that there are a number of unsung heroes, our patriotic and passionate cadres who are in the SSA underpinning the security that we continue to enjoy.
They are a major pillar of strength and are a foundation for this security, because they provide early warning systems even before some of these ugly incidents occur. They identify and guide us all, particularly the stakeholders in security, on how to identify the nature of threats and where the threats are. So as I talk to you, we find ourselves relatively safe in South Africa.
However, that does not mean that we have to reduce our vigilance as a country. Besides terrorism, they also help to prevent the illicit trade and illicit mining that robs our fiscus of an estimated R50 billion annually. Our motherland cannot be allowed to bleed like that. We cannot afford the fiscus to bleed more than R50 billion, given the problems of poverty and unemployment that we experience, and the number of other problems that we have as a society.
As the Minister has mentioned, the SSA assists us in securing very big events. We hosted one of the greatest Fifa World Cup events in 2010. We have big rugby events which happen in South Africa; we have big global summits, big festivals, as well as the Comrades Marathon that attract hundreds of thousands of people to our shores.
Almost all of these events continue until the end, incident free. That does not happen by chance. There are men and women out there looking out for threats, dangers, and people, and looking at profiles of people who may endanger us during those events. These events are very, very important because they offer a tremendous boost to tourist events, and tourist events contribute to the growth of tourism. Tourism is one of the priority sectors that the President has highlighted, which contributes to the growth of our economy. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr S C MNCWABE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 26
Mr D M GUMEDE
Mr S C MNCWABE: Chairperson, hon Minister Bab'uMahlobo, Deputy Minister, distinguished guests and hon members, South Africa has quickly emerged as one of the most attractive countries in the area of tourism ...
IsiZulu:
Angilingisi wena Bab'uGumede.
English:
... in the world. Every year during the festive season we host a number of foreign visitors who choose to spend their holidays in our beautiful country.
This country continues to host international gatherings, whether government related or sport related. Therefore, it is crucial to note that it is not everyone who will come into this country with good intentions. That is why we need a well-funded Department of State Security because the security of our country and its citizens is something which we, as the government, cannot afford to compromise.
It is for this reason that the NFP supports this proposed budget of the Department of State Security. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr H C SCHMIDT
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 27
Mr S C MNCWABE
Mr H C SCHMIDT: Hon Chairperson, oversight or scrutiny of the Security sector cannot remain the preserve of government without inviting potential abuse.
It is crucial within the system of democratic accountability that mechanisms include both procedures and institutions, as well as a political culture that fosters transparency, openness and an atmosphere that stimulates Parliamentarians and other actors to watch the step of government closely and to check the Intelligence services.
Budget control is at the heart of such parliamentary control. Intelligence services are financed with taxpayers' money and thus it is crucial that there is thorough and in-depth scrutiny of the budget of the Intelligence services by the parliamentary oversight committee. In addition, in a true open and transparent democracy, scrutiny by a closed committee of Parliament must be coupled with open and transparent annual reporting and financial statements by the department to allow for some level of public scrutiny. However, the current system of budget oversight in this Parliament does not follow international best practice and is not aligned with the constitutional principles of transparency and accountability.
Currently, the Department of State Security, unlike other government departments, does not submit annual reports to Parliament; neither does it provide the public with any level of detail on its financial statements. Rather, the Budget Vote of State Security is included in the Budget Vote of National Treasury and the public are privy to only one line item – the total budget for the department for any given year.
Even the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, which has security vetting to allow the members to see classified information, is only allowed to examine the first level of the State Security budget – the administrative level. Beyond this, the next level of sensitive budget information is only examined by the Auditor-General and the Inspector-General; and the final highest level of budgetary information is examined by the Inspector-General alone. This means that a large proportion of taxpayers' money is subject to absolutely zero parliamentary oversight. We cannot accept that such a large proportion ...
Mr M S A MASANGO: Chairperson, is the speaker prepared to take a question? It's a simple question.
Mr H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, if I have time, I will gladly do so at the end of my speech. Thank you.
We cannot accept that such a large portion of taxpayers' money can be subject to such minimal parliamentary oversight in a constitutional democracy. Since 1994, the Intelligence services have been embroiled in numerous scandals, but most recently former and current State Security Agency spies were deployed to Luthuli House to screen prospective Members of Parliament.
The phones of SABC journalists were tapped and the State Security Agency was used to investigate the off-shore accounts of the hon Malusi Gigaba. All three incidents are in violation of aspects of the Constitution. Thus it is crucial that there is stricter and more thorough examination and control over the activities and budget of our Intelligence services by Parliament.
The Matthews Commission Report, which was tasked with reviewing the Intelligence services after numerous scandals, recommended in 2008 that the Department of State Security should have its own separate Budget Vote and that annual reports and financial statements of the services should be presented to Parliament as public documents with the exclusion of information that would endanger security or compromise Intelligence operations, methods or sources.
Unfortunately, this report was never tabled by Parliament and most of its recommendations were never implemented. As a result, our Intelligence services continue to operate outside constitutionally mandated oversight controls and thus continue to misuse state funds to further political objectives.
Such proposals are in line with international best practice whereby the mandates of parliamentary Intelligence oversight committees include budgeting and accounting. One of the key aspects of international best practice for high-quality oversight of budgets is the principle of comprehensiveness. Parliamentary oversight of the security sector has to be all-inclusive and complete. No expenditure should go unaccounted for. The existence of secret budgets that are inaccessible to the members of the parliamentary oversight committee runs counter to this principle. Parliamentary oversight committees should have full access to all classified information and to every single aspect of the budget to ensure that taxpayers' money is properly overseen.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it correct for the member to mislead the House by saying that the department sent its officials to come and do vetting in the ANC? I ask you to look into that matter.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members. There are other members of the ANC who will respond, as will the Minister. It is a matter of debate. Unfortunately, from where I'm sitting I don't know the operations of the Intelligence services and I will request that the hon member continues.
Ms N W A MICHAEL: Chairperson, on a point of order: I wonder if you could please rule on comments being made in the public gallery, especially towards members sitting on this side of the House. I had alerted you to the fact that they are speaking directly to us and I would like you to please rule as to whether or not they may converse with members of this House.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): No, members in the public gallery are not to participate in any proceedings of the House and are here to observe, so I hereby request anyone who has made a comment to desist from doing so. You may continue, hon member.
Mr H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, I understand that all the issues I referred to were in the public domain and in the media and are not issues of speculation. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The normal principles of good governance which govern other activities of government should also apply to the Intelligence services. Exceptions in terms of secrecy should be legally limited. Importantly, Parliament's oversight of the Intelligence budget should be such that Intelligence agencies should only use funds for activities if those funds were specifically arranged and budgeted for.
This is vastly different from this Parliament, where no aspect of the actual budget of the Intelligence services can be debated in the House and thus there is an entire lack of public scrutiny and accountability.
Our Intelligence services can no longer continue to manage their budgets outside of proper democratic parliamentary controls. Twenty years into our democracy it is high time for the Intelligence services to be reigned in. I thank you. [Applause.]
Dr B H HOLOMISA
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 27
Mr H C SCHMIDT
Dr B H HOLOMISA: Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister and hon members, the UDM supports Budget Vote 10. [Applause.]
As members of the Joint Standing Committee on State Security, we should appreciate the seriousness of the task placed on our shoulders on behalf of the citizens of our country. We must always strive to place the safety of South Africa and its people first. In doing so we need to provide correct and accurate advice to the state and adopt a nonpartisan approach in the execution of this noble task without compromising the principle of our oversight role.
We are tasked to carry out this sensitive oversight work at a time when the world seems to be gravitating towards unimaginable crises. One is reminded of the economic meltdown, terrorism, drug-trafficking, human trafficking, barbarism towards humanity and many other problems. The great challenge to which we must all commit is the safety of all inhabitants of our land, South Africa, at all times.
In order to achieve this, the State Security machinery must at all times work closely with the communities themselves. South African leadership must deal decisively with the growing culture of anger which sometimes destroys the very gains of our democracy - including destruction of state property.
Failure to immediately put an end to this will increase our economic misfortune as potential investors would consider elsewhere for investment. However, we would have failed if we were not to attend to the causal factors behind this anger – issues such as corruption, the skewed distribution of resources and increasing arrogance of power.
Finally, the rich resources of South Africa are attractive to the international community. Yet, this is not for the beneficiation of the primary owners and it compromises the security of this country. Why would a person travel thousands of miles from a foreign country into our country to poach our rhino in a protected park? The only logic explanation is the deep-rooted corruption within our systems, lack of patriotism and a culture of ownership.
The Joint Standing Committee on State Security should at all times strive to provide genuine advice to those in the driving seat of the policies of this country.
The UDM is of the opinion that the conclusion of the South African debate on national interest can no longer be delayed, as such a debate will firm our policy formulation and positions, especially on foreign relations and international security.
IsiXhosa:
Sihlalo sibatsha apha kulo mcimbi kwaye asicacelwanga kakuhle. Kuza kunyanzeleka ukuba nisikhokele nisixelele ukuba le nto ifanele ukuba yenziwe njani na kuba sinento yokuba nemincili ngamanye amaxesha. Siza kuba negalelo kunjalo nje sifune nenyani kwabo baphathe kwezobuntlola. Xa sisazi ukuba kuqhubeka ntoni na siza kukwakazi ukucebisa ngokufanelekileyo.
English:
Then we can give you genuine advice. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J J SKOSANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 28
Dr B H HOLOMISA
Mr J J SKOSANA: Hon Chairperson; Minister of State Security, hon Mahlobo; Deputy Minister of State Security, hon Molekane; Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; hon members; Ministers and Deputy Ministers present; Director-General of the State Security Agency, SSA; members of the Intelligence community; veterans of Intelligence services; distinguished guests; fellow South Africans, several days ago on 18 July 2014, the world joined us in celebrating the unforgettable legacy of the founding father of our democratic nation, the late Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela.
His contribution, together with that of other liberation heroes, has provided us with a firm foundation upon which we continue to build in order to ensure that all South Africans reap the fruits of liberation of our beloved country.
The gains that have been achieved under the leadership of the ANC-led government over the last 20 years bear testimony to the undeniable fact that, indeed, South Africa has a good story to tell. Indeed, South Africans have spoken and have once again, through democratic processes, shown confidence in the ability of the ANC to move this nation forward.
As I engage in this debate on the occasion of the Budget Vote of State Security, I do so mindful of the legacy bequeathed upon us by the late Nelson Mandela as well as the immense confidence shown in the ANC by the people of South Africa at the fifth general elections in May 2014. Our people can rest assured that we will not renege on our commitments as outlined in the manifesto of the ANC.
From the onset, I would like to take this opportunity to state boldly that the ANC supports this Budget Vote, because we are certain that the work undertaken by State Security is crucial and cuts across all sectors, government departments as well as state entities and will contribute to the achievement of government's priorities in the five-year period.
In line with this, and as stated by hon Minister Mahlobo in his delivery of the Budget Vote, I quote:
The maintenance of National Security is synonymous with the creation of conditions that are conducive to democracy, economic development, prosperity and the wellbeing of the people.
Following the aforementioned, I would like to lend myself to concentrating my engagement and intervention on the issues of corruption, crime as well as the utilisation of Intelligence veterans. The scourge of corruption must be eradicated and crime must be dealt a severe blow.
As reflected in our manifesto, we are committed to ensuring a corruption-free society as well as a society where our people feel safe. In respect of these two challenges, the National Development Plan, NDP, envisages a South African society where, by the year 2030, people will feel safe at home, at school and at work - a society that will enjoy a community life free from fear.
In respect of corruption the NDP further states that by 2030, the anticorruption agencies will have adequate resources and be properly capacitated and corruption will be radically reduced. This unwavering commitment to tackling these challenges has been reiterated by hon President Jacob Zuma in his latest state of the nation addresses delivered in February and June of the current year.
IsiNdebele:
Mhlonitjhwa Ngqongqotjhe, abantu abalise ukwelelesa, ukweba nokukhwabanisa kurhulumende ophakathi, wemfunda nowemakhaya. Abaragela phambili nobulelesi begodu nokweba ababotjhwe bafakwe emajele.
English:
As the ANC we have taken note of and welcome the commitments and initiatives that have been outlined in the Budget Vote by the hon Minister and Deputy Minister of State Security as it pertains to crime and corruption. We further note that the fight against crime and corruption is one which requires a multifaceted approach and a multiplicity of role-players. Therefore, as a member of the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, Cluster, we note the role that is played by State Security in this regard.
As the ANC, we are also encouraged by the statement made by the hon Minister, and I quote:
In protecting our democracy, corruption must be tackled head-on.
The hon Minister Mahlobo also states that the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster is leading by example by setting targets that need to be achieved in the shortest possible time.
As the ANC we are encouraged that State Security has firstly, fully taken on board the relevant goals as set out in the NDP; secondly, fully taken on board the relevant provisions of the manifesto of the ANC, which we have been democratically mandated to implement; and finally, heeded the call and marching orders by hon President Zuma to escalate efforts to fight crime and corruption.
We wish to further support, amongst other things, the following elements of the Budget Vote for State Security as it relates to their mandate to root out corruption.
Firstly, we support the implementation of the National Crime Prevention Strategy across all spheres of government with priority focus on the public and private sector. This would, indeed, assist preventing crime within sectors in our country.
Secondly, we support the establishment, through the JCPS cluster, of a resilient system to co-ordinate all anticorruption responsibilities and structures accountable to the newly established Inter-Ministerial Committee mandated to deal, decisively, with corruption in the public sector.
Thirdly, we support the contribution to improving perceptions about South Africa in relation to its international standing regarding to corruption by executing multilateral commitments.
Fourthly, we supporting the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Committee and the Office of the Chief Procurement Officer to safeguard the integrity of the procurement processes.
Fifthly, we support the Anticorruption Task Team and all its components, departments and institutions to operationalise the multidisciplinary approach and to achieve the targets set for the conviction of corrupt individuals and entities, combating of money-laundering and the recovery of proceeds of corrupt activities in the public and private sectors.
Lastly, we support the Department of Public Service and Administration, in particular, the Office of Standards and Compliance and the National Disciplinary Unit at national, provincial and local level to ensure integrity management in the public sector.
The ANC has committed itself to stepping up the fight against crime in all its manifestations. We therefore take note of the issues related to organised crime that have been put forth. We stand in support of the Department of State Security, together with the JCPS Cluster in advancing the gains that have been registered thus far in terms of making further inroads in this area.
Furthermore, as stated by the hon Minister, the drafting of a national strategy on the elicit economy will indeed go a long way in providing policy proposals to address this challenge.
South Africa is, indeed, a nation at work. The ANC is please that the State Security Agency has heeded the call by government to utilise veterans to reinforce the human resource capacity of government departments and structures. The ANC gladly takes note that the Civilian Intelligence Veterans Association has been established and an interim national executive committee has been appointed.
These veterans bring along a wealth of experience, knowledge, expertise and passion. As such, the ANC welcomes these developments and supports the work of the State Security Agency in this regard.
It is my firm belief and that of the ANC that the Budget Vote presented today is unambiguous about the role and responsibilities that State Security will carry out in terms of crime and corruption.
The Budget Vote that has been presented is well aligned to Outcome 3 of government's delivery agreement which seeks to ensure that South Africans are and feel safe. The ANC therefore supports this Budget Vote and has full confidence that State Security will contribute to the bigger responsibility of ensuring that this fifth administration delivers on its priority areas.
Before I conclude, let me remind the members of the DA that this committee is covered by section 199, paragraph 8 of the Constitution on its oversight. Therefore, we will do oversight. The transparency that they are talking about, I don't think is transparency for the public but for the committee and the department.
On the issue of Luthuli House, Luthuli is our house, not yours. Leave our Luthuli House alone. If you have an issue regarding Luthuli House then join us so that you can come to see it. Luthuli House is not using State Security to protect its institutions. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 23 July 2014 Take: 29
Mr J J SKOSANA
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Chair and hon members, on behalf of the department, I want to take this opportunity to thank all political parties for their input and their co-operation in making the process of sitting here in this debate possible. I agree with hon member uTat'uHolomisa that this is a serious business and those who are entrusted with the opportunity to serve here must avoid being partisan.
Let us not look away and say things that do not uphold the Constitution and our laws. The work we do is in the Constitution. There are three pieces of legislation that are already there, which we are reviewing in order to try to bring these issues together.
Do not ignore these issues, Mr Schmidt. There is an Intelligence general that actually looks at these issues. They investigate matters and we do take them seriously. Therefore, there is no issue where there is no accountability or oversight.
The Auditor-General was established by our own Constitution to do the auditing of our books. Currently the teams are busy with our annual report which will be submitted to you. We will find time to engage with you on these issues. However, in terms of the legislation that we have passed, for the first time there is the Intelligence architecture and State Security that is for all South Africa, and not for other things which we don't know about.
We will find time to create an appreciation for the work we do because our appreciation is not the same. We don't only look at the threats but we also look at opportunities. Appreciation of Intelligence is about securing our country in totality. Let us find time to engage with what it means. To secure its integrity is also about securing our people. Our people sleep well, unlike in other countries.
There are men and women who have worked well over the last 20 years. They continue to do so and thereby allow you to continue with your socioeconomic activities and to enjoy all the rights provided in the Constitution. It is because of those men and women, and we must be grateful to them. We are the ones who have admitted that there have been challenges and we will confront these challenges head-on.
More importantly, we will also protect our infrastructure and our resources. That is what "State Security" means. That is why our President no longer calls us "Intelligence", because people think we are listening to people. Well, don't do any wrong things. If you're not doing any wrong things to sabotage your own country, and you love your country and its people, you shouldn't worry about the work we do. We will protect the country from unscrupulous elements.
We are going to ensure that this agency becomes more effective because of changes in the global environment. We are going to become robust because the world is extremely robust. We are going to deal with the evolving nature of threats, both in the country and globally because there are countries that are not at peace; they are at war with themselves. Our duty is to secure our country.
We will ensure that there is better co-ordination of our work. We will exchange information and we are going to promote innovation, research and development. Our technological capability and the professionalisation of the service will be key. We will do this not because we like it, but because it is our constitutional imperative. The work we do has many complexities in terms of new threats and the number of issues – which members we have alluded to – which are occupying the globe and our national security.
Lastly, let me say that we want to make state security everybody's business. We are going to engage with all South Africans to explain to them how they should join hands because we believe that every South African is responsible for policing. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. Members are reminded that the debate on the Presidency Budget Vote will take place at 14:00 in the National Assembly Chamber. That concludes the debate and the business of this Extended Public Committee. The committee will now rise.
The Committee rose at 12:03.
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