Hansard: NCOP: Policy Debate on Vote No 12 - Public Service and Administration
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 16 Jul 2014
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 45
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,07 Aug 2014,"Take 45[National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main", National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][mm Unrevised Hansard,16 Jul 2014,"[Take-45] [].doc"
WEDNESDAY, 16 JULY 2014
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
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The Council met at 14:09.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
APOLOGY FOR DELAY IN START OWING TO HOMAGE BEING PAID TO THE LATE FORMER CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 45
START OF DAY
APOLOGY FOR DELAY IN START OWING TO NCOPs PAYING HOMAGE TO THE LATE FORMER CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, it is proper that we apologise for the slight delay that was caused by homage being paid by the NCOP to the late former Chief Whip of the NCOP. We apologise.
We will now proceed with the business of the day.
NOTICES OF MOTION
APOLOGY FOR DELAY IN START OWING TO NCOPs PAYING HOMAGE TO THE LATE FORMER CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 45
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
(1)notes that the Deputy Chief Whip of the Free State Legislature, Ms Dora Coetzee, during last week's budget debates in that House, gave a graphic description of a malformed child and then tried to use the description as an insult or to belittle the opposition;
(2)further notes that when asked to withdraw her ghastly, insensitive statement, she tried to correct herself by stating that she meant a malformed dog – not a child – as if a disabled child can be easily interchanged with a dog;
(3)recognises that people with disabilities should never be used as objects to insult or belittle and should at all times be treated with dignity and respect; and
(4)calls upon the ANC to ensure that their members are sensitive to issues relating to disabilities.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 45
Mr G MICHALAKIS
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:
That the Council-
(1)notes that the proverbial cat has been set among the pigeons again in the DA with speculations and accusations going on about the origin of the allegations that a DA Member of Parliament, hon Phumzile van Damme, had fraudulently obtained South African citizenship;
(2)also notes that this resulted in the unfair, intrusive and cruel public scrutiny of hon Van Damme's personal life, something which could have been avoided had the DA conducted basic checks and made corrections where necessary, instead of pursuing its bid to use talented young blacks as window-dressing in its ranks;
(3)further notes that instead of the DA taking responsibility for putting hon Van Damme in this situation, it is playing the blame game and, amongst others, even attempting to implicate the ANC through its speculations that hon Van Damme's mother was involved in the ANC...
Mr J J LONDT: Hon Deputy Chair, on a point of order: This matter was referred to the press ombudsman because the DA believes that there was false reporting on this matter. So, to move a motion on this will not be fair until the ombudsman has made a ruling.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): So the matter is before an ombudsman, not a court of law. If it is before an ombudsman, the hon member is entitled to move the motion. If, however, the matter was before a court of law, then your objection would have been sustained.
Mr J J LONDT: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE: In conclusion, I further move:
That the council-
(4)condemns these practices of the DA and its failure to take responsibility and calls upon the DA and its leaders to stop exploiting, humiliating and discarding talented black people.
Mr F ESSACK
Mr S G MTHIMUNYE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 45
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
(1)notes that the Thaba Chweu Municipality in Mpumalanga has, for the last two years, reneged on its commitment to pay Eskom its monthly accounts;
(2)also notes that Eskom has continuously engaged the Thaba Chweu Municipality and the Mpumalanga provincial department of co-operative governance and traditional affairs;
(3)further notes that Eskom has given notice to inform this municipality of the imminent disconnection to the bulk electricity supply of the entire municipality;
(4)acknowledges that this looming crisis is untenable and is indicative of Thaba Chweu Municipality's inability to manage its own finances and deliver basic services to the citizens of the municipality; and
(5)further acknowledges that the DA calls on the NCOP's Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to visit this municipality and investigate its real financial challenges as soon as possible.
Ms B S MASANGO
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Mr F ESSACK
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 46
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
TRIBUTE TO LATE AUTHOR NADINE GORDIMER, NOBEL PRIZE FOR LITERATURE WINNER
(Draft Resolution)
Ms B MASANGO: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with profound sadness the passing of South Africa's literary giant and the first South African to receive a Nobel Prize for Literature, Nadine Gordimer;
(2) further notes that Gordimer will be fondly remembered for her unwavering courage in chronicling South Africa's racial apartheid through her impeccable writings;
(3) also notes that she dedicated her whole life, from the age of 9 years, to writing 15 novels as well as several volumes of short stories, non-fiction and other works;
(4) also notes that Gordimer was published around the world in 40 languages;
(5) further notes that we join her family, the country and the world in mourning the passing of South Africa's Nobel laureate, activist and a great South African, and believe that her legacy will live on through her work and the impact it has had and continues to have in the literary world;
(6) takes this opportunity to extend its deepest condolences to the Gordimer family and assures them of our thoughts and prayers during this difficult time; and
(7)finally notes that her amazing courage was evident as she remained politically and intellectually active until the very end.
May her wonderful soul rest in perfect peace!
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr M KHAWULA
Ms B MASANGO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 46
LAND CLAIMS REOPENED BY DEPARTMENT OF LAND AFFAIRS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M KHAWULA: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council–
(1) notes the relaunch and reopening of land claims in the country by the Department of Land Affairs;
(2) also notes that this relaunch has aroused widespread enthusiasm and interest around the country and it is reported that the East Griqua, a KhoiSan community based in the Kokstad area and the Nhlangwini clan in KwaZulu-Natal are set to lodge their claims;
(3) further notes that it is reported that the Zulu King is about to launch South Africa's biggest ever claim and the Hlubi clan is also planning to lodge a huge claim in KwaZulu-Natal;
(4) further notes that some of these potential claims are by claimants who had previously applied to the Nhlapho Commission that their amakhosi to be recognised as kings and were turned down; and
(5) urges the Department of Land Affairs to speed up the process of workshops and educating communities about land claims so that they are not confused with the claims for recognition of kingship.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms T K MAMPURU
Mr M KHAWULA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 46
ESTABLISHMENT OF FORENSIC AND FRAUD INVESTIGATION UNIT IN NORTH WEST PROVINCE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms T K MAMPURU: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes and welcomes the recent announcement by Premier Supra Mahumapelo of North West that a Forensic and Fraud Investigation Unit is being established in the province;
(2) also notes and welcomes the call by the Premier on all members of his executive council to lead by example in demonstrating positive ethical conduct and rejecting corruption;
(3) further notes the decision that all forensic investigation reports that are to be commissioned by the provincial government be made available to the Office of the Premier to ensure that they are properly processed and disclosed through the legislature; and
(4) commends the Premier and his government for this development; and calls on the public to heed the call of the Premier to join hands with the government in its fight against fraud and corruption.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr C J DE BEER
Ms T K MAMPURU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 46
CAPACITY-BUILDING OF SENIOR MUNICIPAL MANAGERS BY SALGA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr C J DE BEER: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council–
(1) notes that SA Local Government Association, Salga, had, in line with its mandate to build capacity in municipalities developed a Senior Management Induction Programme, which was launched recently;
(2) notes that this programme is aimed at training and building the capacity of senior managers in municipalities, assimilating them into their roles as heads of municipal administrations and accounting officers, and establishing a culture and ethos of professionalism;
(3) further notes that this programme was developed and implemented after Salga had identified the challenges confronting leaders in the local government sector and in particular that leadership and management are critical areas that require intervention to ensure that the municipal human capital development goals are achieved and the local government sector is professionalised to enable it to meet its constitutional obligations;
(4) commends Salga on this initiative and its commitment to capacitate and professionalise municipalities; and
(5) calls on all provincial governments to support Salga in its endeavours to ensure that this programme yields the desired outcomes.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr H B GROENEWALD
Mr C J DE BEER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 46
CONRATULATIONS TO SOUTH AFRICAN CRICKET TEAM ON WIN AGAINST SRI LANKA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council–
(1) wishes to congratulate the SA Cricket team, the Proteas, that won the three-match one-day test series by 2-1 against Sri Lanka;
(2) also notes that the Proteas made history by winning the series in Hambantota in Sri Lanka for the first time ever; and
(3) also wishes Hashim Amla and his Protea team the very best for two five-day tests and that they may also win this series for the first time in Sri Lanka.
Come on boys, make South Africa proud!
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms B G NTHEBE
Mr H B GROENEWALD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 46
HEALTH CONCERNS AS PLATINUM MINERS RETURN TO WORK
Ms B G NTHEBE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council–
(1) notes with concern the new challenge facing platinum mining companies after the recent five-month strike, in that many mineworkers are unfit to resume duty as they have taken ill, adding to the high number of their colleagues who defaulted on their chronic medication during the strike;
(2) further notes that some mineworkers who were fit for work before the strike did not pass their medical tests when they went through the medical screening process as many had failed to take their chronic medication for diabetes, hypertension and other conditions as well as antiretroviral drugs;
(3) commends the mining companies for their efforts to assist these workers by taking the required treatment to them and to alert and encourage the workers to come and get the necessary treatment; and
(4) calls on all mineworkers to co-operate in this regard, and calls on the relevant provincial health departments and other health authorities to render the appropriate support and assistance in this regard.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr F ESSACK
Ms B G NTHEBE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 46
ALLEGED MISAPPROPRIATION OF FUNDS BY MPUMALANGA'S DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
(Draft Resolution)
Mr F ESSACK: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council–
(1) notes the comments by and dissatisfaction of Mpumalanga Premier, David Mabuza, with the local health care system in Mpumalanga during his state of the province address;
(2) also notes that he promised to provide an effective health care system;
(3) further notes that more than R2 billion have already been spent on this now defunct health care system in Mpumalanga;
(4) notes that in December last year, the SA Human Rights Commission, SAHRC, gave the department of health in Mpumalanga until 31 March 2014 to formulate and submit a programme to address the skills, infrastructure and administrative problems in this province's health care centres; and
(5) notes that this mismanagement in Mpumalanga and in its department of health can no longer be tolerated.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Are there any objections? Yes, there are. In the light of the objection, the motion without notice will now become a notice of motion. Hon Van Lingen, I have you on my list here? Did you have your hand up?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Well, if you did not, it is fine. Alright, that clearly shows that you did not have a motion. Hon members, that brings us to the end of the motions and I take it there are no further motions. I therefore call on the Secretary to read the First Order of the Day.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr F ESSACK/The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 47
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APPROPRIATION BILL
(Policy Debate on Vote No 12 - Public Service and Administration)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): May I, like yesterday, call on our brand new Minister to introduce the debate. [Applause.] That is the reason why I said "our brand new Minister". It is because the Chamber has been restructured, Minister. We now have a podium this side. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] No, there is no speaker.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I apologise, I did not known that the podium is now ... [Laughter.]... I hope I will not be the only one who is going to make this mistake. Don't tell the rest of the members until they have made the mistake I did. [Laughter.] I won't advise them.
Hon chairperson of the select committee, hon members and delegates, directors-general and heads of our institutions, distinguished guests and friends, ladies and gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to present the Department of Public Service and Administration's policy input in this noble House of Parliament today.
I sincerely thank the people of South Africa for having given the ANC a further mandate to lead South Africa's fifth democratic administration. With this mandate, we will ensure that we continue to accelerate and improve the standard and the quality of all our people's lives throughout our beautiful country. The National Development Plan has been bold in its assertion that the Public Service is key if we are to deliver on our developmental objectives.
To this end the Public Service therefore has to reposition itself to assume this momentous responsibility. To address the twin challenge of poverty and inequality, as identified by the National Development Plan, the state needs to play a transformative and developmental role. This role requires well-run and effectively co-ordinated state institutions with skilled public servants who are committed to servicing our people and who are capable of delivering consistently high quality services.
Together with the relevant stakeholders, the Department of Public Service and Administration will, during this financial year, focus on programmes that will ensure that all public servants are capacitated to deliver on the objectives of the National Development Plan.
This debate today provides us with an opportunity to reflect on our constitutional mandate, to provide public services that are governed by democratic values and principles. These include, amongst others, high standards of professional ethics, effective use of resources, public administration that is development-oriented and that provides services and are impartial, fair, equitable and without bias.
We are therefore proud to indicate that, as we celebrate twenty years of democracy, our government has been able to, amongst other things, reform legislation and policies, restructure state institutions, decentralise public administration and strengthen intergovernmental relations. We have established a single government system that consolidated the fragmented apartheid governance structures into a system that places our people first.
We are proud to say that our democratic system of administration will serve to deliver all the developmental objectives as outlined in the National Development Plan. These efforts keep us on the trajectory to realise our national strategic objectives of building a united, democratic, nonsexist, nonracial, just and prosperous South Africa. This is indeed a good story to tell. As the Department of Public Service and Administration, we are proud to be part of this good story.
The Diagnostic Report of the National Planning Commission confirmed that in some instances government is unable to deliver services effectively and efficiently, partly because some of the current service delivery programmes are disjointed and do not always reach the poorest people who live in rural, peri-urban, informal settlements and underserviced urban areas. This is exacerbated by departments that tend to plan their service access improvement initiatives in silos.
The above problem exists despite the fact that there are initiatives such as the Thusong Service Centres and the community development workers' programmes, which were introduced some years ago. The Thusong Service Centres collocate key service delivery departments at national, provincial and local government level to provide services seamlessly in locations that are closer to where the people reside. Community development workers on the other hand disseminate information of government services and also serve as a link between the communities, Thusong Service Centres and government.
In view of this, the Outcome 12 Delivery Agreement states that the Thusong Service Centre model will have to be rethought to ensure that these centres function better and that the model contributes to improving access to services. The Department of Public Service and Administration has developed a pilot Thusong Service Centre at Maponya Mall in Soweto and is using the lessons from the establishment process to formulate a management framework that could be used to refine the existing Thusong Service Centres and guide the development of new ones.
The framework will define the suitable internal operational requirements, organisational structure and the funding model. The framework will also include the protocol that could be used to bind government departments and other institutions that participate in the establishment of a particular centre.
In addition, we will focus on modernising the Public Service, through a generally applicable framework of norms and standards, our only objective being to improve service delivery in order to create a better life for all our people. Our National School of Government will strive towards improving performance and service delivery in the public sector through the provision and co-ordination of training and management development programmes.
In addition, the Centre for Public Service Innovation will unlock innovation in the public sector and create an enabling environment for improved and innovative service delivery. The Public Service Commission, established in terms of Chapter 10 of the Constitution, will continue to promote the constitutional values and principles of public administration.
To protect our hard-earned democracy, we remain determined to root out corrupt practices within the Public Service. We encourage public servants, whom we have entrusted with the responsibility and honour to serve, to prioritise serving the public. In this regard, we will intensify our efforts to place people first at all times, as outlined in our Batho Pele principles.
As a department that is strategically located not only to create an enabling policy environment for the rest of the Public Service, but also to support the effective implementation of such policies, the Department of Public Service and Administration will play a more proactive role in supporting departments to build their own capacity, fulfil regulatory requirements and improve service delivery.
The implementation of the Batho Pele principles will be enhanced to ensure that the efforts of improving service delivery bear fruit. To this end, the Department of Public Service and Administration will be strengthening the institutionalisation and mainstreaming of the Batho Pele programmes, with a focus in the next two years on capacitating frontline officials. This will be done through ensuring that government departments embed the Batho Pele programmes within their strategic and operational plans, as well as accommodate the programmes within their operational structures. The efforts will be further enhanced by streamlining and aligning the individual departmental complaints and compliments systems with the national Complaints and Compliments Framework.
The highlight of the Batho Pele programme's implementation for the 2014-15 financial year will be hosting the second National Batho Pele Excellence Awards. The awards are aimed at recognising and rewarding hard-working public servants and to serve as an incentive for all public servants to strive for excellence and innovation in the execution of their duties.
To further step up the implementation of the Batho Pele principles in the public sector, we need to transform the Public Service into an effective service delivery machine. In this regard, we have secured a negotiated social contract between citizens, the state and public servants. The President appointed a commission, led by former Chief Justice Sandile Ngcobo.
We were humbled by the commitment shown by the state as employer and labour in the 2012-13 and 2014-15 wage agreement, which included the resolution that the employer would review the Remuneration Policy of the Public Service. Parties, that is labour and employer, have signed a Service Charter for the Public Service in August 2013. The charter introduces service standards in the Department of Public Service and Administration with a call to public servants to meet and exceed them. The charter also seeks to improve service delivery programmes, reinforce our commitment to service delivery improvement for the benefit of all citizens. Through this charter we will ensure an effective, efficient and responsive Public Service.
The charter commits public servants to serving the public in an unbiased and impartial manner in order to create confidence in the Public Service; to respect and protect every person's dignity and rights as contained in the Constitution; and to act against fraud, corruption, nepotism, maladministration and any other act that constitutes an offence or that is prejudicial to the public interest. The implementation of the charter will be monitored during this financial year.
The implementation of our performance management and development system for heads of department and other senior management service members is not as yet optimal. Challenges in this regard include the failure to enter into signed performance agreements on time and the lack of performance assessments and feedback. The focus during this Medium-Term Strategic Framework will be to finalise the revision of the policy on the performance management and development of heads of department and senior management service members, and to ensure its effective implementation.
Improved human resources capacity in departments is critical for the effective implementation of the matters identified above as well as the broader professionalisation of the Public Service. It is therefore essential that human resource professionals are not only equipped to enforce rules and implement administrative processes, but also to advise senior management on all aspects of strategic human resources management and development.
A number of weaknesses in the human resources functions within departments have been highlighted by the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation's Management Performance Assessment Tool reports. To address these weaknesses, the Department of Public Service and Administration will be implementing a number of targeted support mechanisms to departments, with particular focus on those that have achieved a low score in human resource standards.
The other challenge is the absence of clear and formalised delegations within departments. This creates instability and makes it harder to establish clear lines of accountability. One of the things we need to do is work out proper delegation guidelines to empower junior managers to make appropriate decisions at lower levels.
The National Development Plan highlights the importance of adopting a more long-term approach to developing the skills and professional ethos that underpin a development-oriented Public Service. This includes building the skills base for both now and the future; to contribute to employment creation and to ensure that public sector workplaces become training spaces where entrants are adequately supported in order to develop their skills for employment within the Public Service or the private sector.
To this end, the Department of Public Service and Administration will actively support the appointment of youth to learnerships, internships and artisan programmes within the Public Service over the next five years whilst ensuring that these young people are absorbed in permanent posts in departments.
The transformation of Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, to the National School of Government will enable us to achieve the goal of establishing a highly skilled Public Service. The strategic intent of the school is to ensure 100% coverage of education, learning and development across the spheres of government, focusing on diagnostic analysis to determine institutional support and interventions, and pre- and in-service learning and development.
In implementing its constitutional mandate of performing its functions without fear, favour or prejudice in the interest of the maintenance of effective and efficient public administration and a high standard of professional ethics in the Public Service, the Public Service Commission has been leading by example on clean governance and has received a trophy from the Auditor-General of South Africa for its clean audit reports over the past years.
The Public Service Commission has introduced the Public Service Barometer Dashboard, which is an indicator-based assessment of the state of the Public Service against the nine values in section 195 of the Constitution. The barometer provides the hard data on the state of the Public Service, which will be part of the evidence-based diagnosis of the Public Service Commission of the main underlying problems of the Public Service. This instrument has been useful to portfolio committees and provincial legislatures in holding departments accountable.
In the area of Leadership and Management Practices, the commission will, during the 2014-15 financial year, institutionalise a revised internal grievance management process to fast-track the resolution of grievances referred to them by executive authorities or employees. In this process, departments will also be capacitated to investigate grievances through information-sharing platforms such as workshops.
In collaboration with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, the Public Service Commission will commence with a multi-year project to review the impact of remuneration and organisational policy changes on the public sector wage bill and productivity in selected sectors. The Public Service Commission will also continue to conduct inspections of service delivery sites as part of its monitoring and evaluation mandate. This will intensify reporting of concerns about the quality of government services received by citizens.
In conclusion, I wish to thank the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, our Deputy Minister, Ms Ayanda Dlodlo, our Director-General in the Department of Public Service and Administration, Mr Mashwahle Diphofa, and his team in the department, all directors-general and chief executive officers present, and the chairperson of the Public Service Commission. I can assure you that we will continue to work with you and this honourable House as we move towards strengthening the quality and effectiveness of the public services we offer all the people of South Africa.
As we prepare to celebrate the birthday of the late father, our former President, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, I am reminded of the words of the chief executive officer of the Nelson Mandela Foundation that Mandela Day is not only about doing good, it is also about service.
On Friday, as we celebrate the life of Madiba, it is an ideal opportunity to build on his lifelong belief that we must free ourselves and others and live to serve others every day in whatever we do. This is what we expect from all public servants.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, the presiding officer, unfortunately you didn't advise me on what to do when I am addressing the people and there are some people who are dreaming out loud in the House. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mr M J MOHAPI
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The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 48
Mr M J MOHAPI: Hon Deputy Chair of the NCOP, Chairperson of the NCOP, present here today, the hon Chief Whip of the NCOP, the House Chair of Committees and Oversight in absentia, the Minister for the Public Service and Administration, provincial whips, members of the NCOP, members of the public and officials in the gallery, it is my honour and privilege as a public representative to participate in the policy debate in this House on the Budget Vote of the Department of Public Service and Administration during the fifth democratic Parliament.
I rise on behalf of the ANC in support of the budget for the Department of Public Service and Administration and the allocation to the departmental programmes and entities as well as predetermined priorities planned for the 2014-15 financial year.
Let me first take this opportunity to convey on behalf of the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, our deepest condolences to the family of the late Comrade Nosipho Ntwanambi for the loss of their mother.
Chairperson, coming back to the policy debate on the Budget Vote, as the ANC, we rally behind the newly appointed Minister and Deputy Minister of the Department of Public Service and Administration. Furthermore, as the ANC collective, we have parliamentary confidence, from an oversight and accountability point of view, that they will deliver in terms of the departmental, constitutional and legislative mandate and also on the basis of the 2030 vision, as articulated in our National Development Plan.
On its ascension to power the Government of National Unity inherited a society marked by deep social and economic inequalities as well as by serious racial, political and social divisions. Guided by the principles of national reconciliation, which were championed by the former ANC President and the President of the country, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, the new South African government under the leadership of the ANC adopted the Reconstruction and Development Programme to reorient and reunite our society towards a common purpose - that of a socially coherent and economically equitable society based on the principles of nonracialism.
In forging ahead with the processes of reconciliation, reconstruction and development, the ANC government emphasised the critical role of the South African Public Service as an executive arm of government responsible for transforming public service in South Africa. To effectively fulfil this role the Public Service had to be transformed into a coherent, representative, competent and democratic instrument for implementing government policies and meeting the needs of all South Africans.
The ANC government's commitment to this process has been demonstrated by the fact that it has identified institutional transformation and reform as one of the key medium and long-term programmes to drive the implementation of the democratic developmental state informed by popular constitutional and legislative mandates.
The ANC policy framework states that in order to deepen the National Democratic Revolution and also accelerate service delivery and development, we need a stronger developmental state and a more integrated co-operative governance system. The more we build a developmental state, the more we create the conditions for a more integrated co-operative governance system, as outlined in terms of Chapter 3 of the Constitution of South Africa.
Our present Public Service administration, as compared to the previous apartheid, racial and fragmented, system has a clear people-driven mandate informed by our Constitution and legislation. According to Chapter 10, section 195(1) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, public administration must be governed by democratic values and principles, as outlined below:
A high standard of professional ethics must be promoted and maintained. Efficient, economic and effective use of resources must be promoted. Public administration must be development-orientated. Services must be provided impartially, fairly, equitably, and without bias. People's needs must be responded to, and the public must be encouraged to participate in policy-making. Public administration must be accountable. Transparency must be fostered by providing the public with timely, accessible and accurate information. Good human resource management and career development practices to maximise human potential must be cultivated. Public administration must be broadly representative of the South African people, with employment and personnel management practices based on ability, objectivity, fairness and the need to redress the imbalances of the past to achieve broad representation.
Also key in terms of the Public Service Act of 1994, as amended, the Minister for the Public Service and Administration is responsible for establishing the norms and standards relating to:
The functions of the Public Service; organisational structures and establishments of departments and other organisational and governance arrangements in the Public Service; labour relations, conditions of service and other employment practices for employees; the health and wellness of employees; information management; electronic government in the Public Service; integrity, ethics, conduct and anti-corruption; and transformation, reform, innovation and any other matter to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the Public Service and its service delivery to the public.
The Minister for the Public Service and Administration was allocated the responsibility of co-ordinating the implementation of Outcome 12, which has to do with an effective, efficient development-oriented Public Service and a fair and inclusive citizenship and to lead the modernisation of the Public Service through a generally applicable framework of norms and standards to improve service delivery.
However, the National Development Plan acknowledges challenges, especially with regard to unevenness and incapacity. This unevenness is attributed to a complex set of factors, including tensions in the political administrative interface, instability of the administrative leadership, skills deficit, and insufficient attention to the role of the state in reproducing the skills it needs and the erosion of accountability and authority, poor organisational design and low staff morale.
In order to effectively deal with the above-stated unevenness, the Department of Public Service and Administration is expected to implement and co-ordinate interventions aimed at achieving an efficient, effective and development-orientated Public Service, which is an essential element of a capable and developmental state to strengthen skills, to enhance morale, to clarify lines of accountability, build an ethos of public service, build mechanisms and capacity, build mechanisms and structures to support departments in developing their capacity and professional ethos while ensuring that departments fulfil their regulatory responsibility, which will enhance and improve service delivery.
During the state of the nation address the President of the Republic of South Africa shared with the nation measures that will be implemented to prevent public servants and public representatives from doing business with the state, as envisaged in the Public Management Bill.
Further commitments were made to support improved implementation of the Financial Disclosure Framework, strengthening the protection of whistle-blowers and the provision of technical assistance to departments for the effective management of discipline.
Corruption in the Public Service is often perceived in liberal and conservative media houses and amongst opposition parties as a post-1994 phenomenon. The issue of corruption was also widespread in the apartheid era. [Interjections.] Research by the Institute for Security Studies, inthe report authored by Mr Hennie van Vuuren, for your information, provides extensive evidence of grand apartheid corruption before 1994. In conclusion, he said: "When the apartheid state was at its most repressive, it was also at its most corrupt." Therefore, South Africa cannot hope to tackle corruption without understanding the origin of corruption. [Interjections.]
At its 53rd National Conference, the ANC resolved on corruption that as the leaders of society, ANC members in every sphere of activity need to be champions of the anticorruption campaign. They should take tougher action against corruption, strengthen systems to detect and act against corruption and also create, as ANC members, a co-operation across the spheres of government in dealing with corruption.
In terms of the ANC, this challenge can be best addressed through a concerted effort by government in all spheres, working together, integrating as far as possible their actions in the provision of sustainable services, alleviation of poverty and the development of the people and the country. Showing its commitment to dealing with these challenges, the ANC, in its 2014 election manifesto, states that:
It is committed to building a democratic developmental state able to lead efforts to overcome the triple challenge of unemployment, poverty and inequality. The developmental state will play a strategic guiding role in the economy, and decisively intervene in the interests of the people, particularly the working class and the poor. The state, in partnership with the private sector, organised labour and civil society, must create the conditions to accelerate economic growth and stimulate job creation.
As part of ensuring executive accountability and conducting parliamentary oversight, the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs had a successful interactive briefing session on 15 July with the Department of Public Service and Administration, considering the departmental annual performance plan, strategic plan of the 2014-15 Budget Vote and its allocation to departmental programmes in line with its constitutional mandate.
Chair, the departmental programme in this instance included administration, human resource management, development, labour relations and remuneration management, public sector information and communication technology management.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Could you summarise, please, hon member, as you are running out of time.
Mr M J MOHAPI: In conclusion, allow me to convey our gratitude as a select committee, and that we are in support of the Budget Vote as presented by the hon Minister. I thank you. [Applause.]
An HON MEMBER: Which Julius? [Laughter.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: The original one!
Mr J W W JULIUS
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,04 Aug 2014,"Take 49 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,16 Jul 2014,"[Take-49] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][mm].doc"
Mr M J MOHAPI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 49
Mr J W W JULIUS: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Minister, hon members, officials and all interested parties, members of the public in the gallery, I think I will stop the rhetoric for now. We have just heard things that we already know. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, the National Development Plan envisages building a skilled and professional Public Service to strengthen delegation for accountability and oversight.
Public Service and Administration is at the heart of government and what it envisages doing. However, corruption, wasteful expenditure and poor administration are eating away at the very heart of our Public Service.
South Africa loses between R25 and R30 billion per year to corruption and other malpractices. This is directly denying much needed services to especially the poorest of the poor people in our country. Preventing public servants from doing business with government is one step in the right direction.
Chairperson, when this Act, which is much welcomed, comes to life an interesting issue needs our attention, an issue created by the rot of corruption itself. Just think; how many of our public servants are currently doing business with government, legally so?
How many of these public servants are senior managers in the Public Service? Will these senior managers now opt to continue doing business with government or will they stay in government employment and leave their businesses? This is just a thought for the Minister there.
We should further stop tender corruption, which is rife, by allowing the public to attend meetings where decisions on tenders are made. Why are we not doing this? If we want to win the trust of the public, we need to be transparent in all that we do.
Strategic Goal 2 of the Department of Public Service and Administration seeks to promote a corrupt-free public administration through the implementation of practical interventions to prevent, detect and combat corruption. A starting point to this should surely be a willingness to include our people when governing them and their money. It is their money that we are governing; include them. Allow citizens to attend these procurement meetings where decisions on awarding tenders are made.
The crucial role of the Public Service Commission, PSC, in championing norms and standards, and strengthening monitoring of recruitment processes should not be underscored in our quest to fight corruption and nepotism in the Public Service. If we are serious about fighting the scourge of corruption, we need to actively and urgently work towards giving the PSC enforcement powers. As it currently stands, the PSC provides advice and recommendations to the Public Service. These recommendations have been largely ignored in the past.
The Public Service Commission as it stands is thus a toothless institution. It can do nothing to fight corruption. With regard to the Presidential Hotline that the previous speaker indicated to the Minister and also to the chairperson of the select committee, do you know that only 36% of the 14 149 cases of suspected corruption that were reported by the public, citizens and other interest groups had been closed by the end of last year? Is it working? I doubt it. Maybe you can go to education and say that it is a pass. [Laughter.] You can go there. We are used to 30s now. [Applause.]
What is the use of asking our people to report alleged corruption if you do not do everything in your power to see that these perpetrators are brought to book to account for their actions? It is also shocking, to say the least, that just last week ANC committee Members of Parliament refused the PSC enforcement powers, Minister.
We have seen that this department by itself cannot deal with these alleged corruption complaints. There are structures such as the PSC. Why is it not allowed to solve problems in this Public Service? Is the ANC-led government really serious about fighting corruption in the Public Service or are they trying to cover up, and protect corrupt officials in the Public Service, maybe friends, relatives and family; I don't know.
The National Development Plan, NDP, begs from us to strengthen the role of the Public Service Commission. Instead, some opt to support their own NDP – the no development plan. [Laughter.] [Applause.] The challenge posed this government is simply to adhere to the National Development Plan.
Chairperson, the PSC released its report on 5 November last year, 2013. This report indicated that the number of Public Service officials who had committed and were charged with financial misconduct was increasing at an alarming rate. The number of employees charged with misdemeanours in the 2011-12 financial year increased by 25% from the previous year. This is shocking. What is the anti-corruption strategy to stop this scourge of misconduct?
Just last year, Edward Nathan Sonnenberg, and yes, he may be white, or ... [Interjections.] ... yes, but we listen. If we don't listen, we will not stop the problem. Just last week, he reported on the state of Public Service in South Africa. It was found that there appears to be no meaningful consequences to financial misconduct in the Public Service.
Although 88% of officials who were charged were found guilty - remember that 88% of those charged - I am not talking about those who were not charged ...88% of those charged with smaller issues were found guilty, but the most common sanction for financial misconduct in those cases was a final written warning. [Interjections.]
How can the ANC-led government sanction a person guilty of financial misconduct with a final written warning? Billions are getting lost and a written warning is all that these perpetrators get as punishment. These penalties must be much harsher as they impact directly on the services that our people so desperately need. I like it when people defend the wrongdoings. Remember, you are working for the people. Don't defend yourself. Answer to the people. [Interjections.] Chairperson, these corrupt officials should be banned from working in public office and even representing our people in government spheres, whether it is local, provincial or national. [Interjections.]
Why are these officials not prosecuted criminally? That is your answer. In fact, those sanctioning the slap on the wrist with a final warning should also be prosecuted under the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, No 12 of 2004. They are just as guilty as these perpetrators. They don't want to take action. Why are those corrupt officials not blacklisted out of the government's system?
Instead of getting rid of these corrupt officials in the Public Service, they are promoted to higher office. Right here in Parliament, we have seen people being promoted – those who were alleged to have been involved in fraudulent activities – to very high positions, even if they came with a cloud of alleged corruption from other government spheres. If you are convicted of corruption, or alleged to have been corrupt ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R T Tau): Just hold on, hon member. Is it a point of order, hon Nzimande?
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: It is not a point of order, Chair. I just want to ask the hon member to move on to the next topic of his speech. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, that is not a point of order. [Interjections.] You may proceed, hon member.
Mr J W W JULIUS: What message are we sending to the people in our country? If you are convicted of corruption or alleged to have been corrupt, well done! You are now ready to take on bigger responsibility! [Laughter.] Corruption is not that bad maybe, as long as you subscribe to a certain politically connected few, and that is the truth. You can take that to the bank. [Laughter.]
The next chapter is that the expenditure on consultants will increase in this budget by almost R3 million. This is despite the fact that, according to the Minister, we need to increase our capacity in the Public Service. But we use consultants. The amount of almost R2,5 million could have been spent on providing direct services to our people. We are wasting money on consultants.
We should rather ensure that money spent on capacity-building actually develops our public servants, so that they acquire these specialised skills needed to make less use of consultants. Consultants are making millions out of your government. This must stop, please! [Interjections.]
Ms L C DLAMINI: ... marching with them.
Mr J W W JULIUS: The provincial government's people. We are in the NCOP in case you lost it. Chairperson, what we need ... [Laughter.] ... is a Public Service that delivers clean, efficient, cost-effective, transparent and responsive services to our people.
The latter should envisage a public official who is competent, accountable, serve our people with integrity, is responsive to our people's needs and, most of all, shows care in all he or she does. This is a DA-led government policy at its best. You can gladly adopt it.
Chairperson, I don't know, the ANC is so very busy chasing lizards - sometimes camouflaged in red - while crocodiles are hunting you. Service delivery is coming for you. Thank you, Chair. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Mr M L XIMBI
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,07 Aug 2014,"Take 50[National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,16 Jul 2014,"[Take-50] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][mm].doc"
Mr J W W JULIUS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 50
Mr D L XIMBI: Deputy Chairperson, hon Chairperson, hon Minister, public participation is a fundamental constitutional tenet of our democracy. It enhances democracy and promotes the credibility of South African legislative institutions. The Constitution of South Africa enjoins Parliament and the nine provincial legislatures to elicit public participation in decision-making and policy-making. Section 59 of the Constitution specifically calls on the National Assembly to, among others, facilitate public involvement in the legislature and other processes of the Assembly and its committees, whilst section 72 requires the same of the NCOP.
IsiXhosa:
Sihlalo, uMgaqo-siseko weli lizwe loMzantsi Africa unika inxaxheba ebanzi kuluntu ukuba luphimisele izimvo zalo kwinkqubo yolawulo lwalo. Le yimbilini ikwanguye nondoqo wenkqubo yentando yesininzi. Kungenxa yesi sizathu, Sihlalo, uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali lwalo nyaka luza kugxila ekubekeni bucala imithombo enokuphucula ukuqhogana kwabantu neenkokeli zabo kuzo zontathu izigaba zolawulo lwalo rhulumente.
English:
Chairperson, the South African public participation model has been lauded by a whole range of established and fledgeling democracies across the globe. However, concerns have been expressed in the domestic space about perceived weaknesses and constraints which characterise the current public participation model.
The ANC's January 8 Statement of 2014 underscores the significance of maintaining constant engagement with the people. The statement, in particular, places an obligation on all of us as public representatives to communicate at all material times with people. In implementing the priorities that have been provided for in this budget, the ANC, for its part, will take its cue from the January 8 Statement.
We will engage through uniform content-driven messaging with the community to strengthen accountability. Throughout the course of the Fifth Parliament, starting with this particular Budget Vote, we will seek to promote programmes that will ensure that we share the implementation plans of the budget commitments approved across the three spheres of government as well as account for our failures where these are experienced.
In all of this we will be guided by the ANC, where it says:
We call on all our ANC Members of Parliament, legislatures and councillors to report back to the communities on the achievements of our government so as to promote interactive government.
As we continue to celebrate 20 years of our democracy, for which so many people laid down their lives, we must begin to think of ways to deepen our democracy by, among others, identifying attitudes and behaviours that continue to be potential threats to our hard fought-for democracy.
One aspect that we must confront, and do so constructively, is the violent nature of expression of disgruntlement in what is called service delivery protests among some sections of our society. We cannot countenance a situation where infrastructure and facilities that cost millions of rands to put in place are either deliberately gutted by fire or destroyed in some other way, often with fatal consequences for the children, who tend to be highly visible in these protests.
We encourage parents to continue taking responsibility for their children so that their adventurous nature and lack of discretion are not used by irresponsible elders to promote violent behaviour. We must at all costs avoid situations where our children fall foul of the law, particularly during their juvenile years.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just hold on, hon member. Is that a point of order, hon Matebus?
Mr M A MATEBUS: [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, hon members. No, hon members. He has the right to an interpretation. It is a language that he prefers, which the Constitution recognises. So, do not shout him down. Can we please check whether Afrikaans is being interpreted? [Interjections.] No, no, no, his time is protected. Is it okay, now? All right. You may continue, hon Ximbi.
Mr D L XIMBI: Thank you, Chairperson.
IsiXhosa:
Isizathu sokuba ndithethe ngabantwana abatshisa batshabalalise izakhiwo nazo zonke izinto esinebhongo ngazo ezenziwe ngulo rhulumente ukususela oko waqala ngowe-1994, kungenxa yokuba basetyenziswa ngoongantweni, abantu abafuna ukujikela lo rhulumente. Abantu bantu futhi abathathi nxaxheba kuluntu kwaye ababuzi abangeni ...
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just hold on, hon Ximbi.
Setswana:
Mme T J MOKWELE: Motlotlegi Modulasitilo, Setswana ga se yo ka fa, ga ke utlwe sepe. [Interjections.]
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, hon members, just be sensitive to that. Just be sensitive to that, please. Can we also have Setswana interpreting, please? And, perhaps let me just make the point that this is quite unacceptable. It is unacceptable that members should be struggling with interpretation into languages they prefer. Can that be fixed, please, so that we don't have this kind of problem. Hon Ximbi.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu D L XIMBI: Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo. Kukho ke abantu abahamba bengena. Abanye abayazi into yokuba xa kuza kwenziwa into kuqala kudityanwe nabantu. Oku kuthatha inxaxheba koluntu yinto eyavezwa yi-ANC ukuba abantu - akungoku ke, i-ANC ayiyiqalanga ngowe-1994, yayiqala kwakwiFreedom Charter, yabiza abantu bonke beli lizwe, ifuna ukuqonda ulawulo lweli lizwe bathanda ukuba lube njani na.
Siyazi ke, Sihlalo, kukho abantu abakopa izinto. Aba bantu ke bakopa izinto abangazaziyo. Ithi iFreedom Charter, abantu baza kulawula. Ayifani ke naba bavuka kusasa babone sebesithi banemibutho okwezicawa zikhoyo kuthiwa ngoovuk' engceni, bengakhange babuqinisekise ubudlelwane bokuba ingaba abantu bayayifuna kusini na le nto. Yiyo le nto ndithi ukuthatha inxaxheba koluntu yeyona nto ibalulekileyo.
Siyibonile loo nto kumbutho owaziwayo, ongakhange waya nakumalungu awo, wathatha ixhegwazana apha elikufutshane elimnyama ukuba malikhokele umbutho. Loo nto yapatyalaka kuba yayingazange yasiwa ebantwini. Ukuthatha inxaxheba koluntu, njengokuba benditshilo...
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just hold on, hon member. Is it Afrikaans again?
Afrikaans:
Mnr M A MATEBUS: Ek wil vra dat die agb lid teruggaan na die woord "ixhegwazana". Ek verstaan dit nie, want dit kom nie in die Afrikaanse interpretasie uit nie. [Gelag.]
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Now, you see, hon member, you have exposed yourself, because the way in which you pronounce it is exactly how you understand it.
Dit is 'n ouma. [It means "a grandmother".]
IsiXhosa:
Mnu D L XIMBI: Sihlalo, yiyo le nto ndithe abazali mababajonge abantwana babo, kuba kusetyenziswa bona. Nangoku sinengxaki kweli lizwe yabantwana abangenantlonipho. Sibabona bebaleka apha ezitalatweni, abanye besithi bazi-Chiefs abanye bathi bazi-"Chief of staff". Abo ke ngabantwana abasafuna abazali babaxelele ukuba kusukwa phi nale ANC. I-ANC zange kuvukwe ikhona, kwayiwa ezicaweni, ezinkosini, nakubahlali kwavunyelwana kweli lizwe ukuba makwakhiwe umbutho.
English:
That is public participation ...
IsiXhosa:
... eyenziwa ngabantu beli lizwe.
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Is that a point of order? Just hold on, hon Ximbi. What is your point of order, hon member?
Mr F ESSACK: Hon Deputy Chair, I'm a little confused and I would ask that you exercise your authority to call the hon speaker to attention in that I think he has lost the plot in terms of the topic ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): What is the point of order? [Interjections.] Hon members, may I preside over this. What is the point of order?
Mr F ESSACK: The point of order is that he is off the topic. The topic of discussion is Public Service and Administration and he is making a political speech. Can you please call him to order? [Interjections.] I don't understand.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, hon member, if my memory serves me correctly, the hon member emphasised the issue of public participation within the context of the Public Service. That is how I understand the flow of his speech. I would therefore not sustain that order. Hon Ximbi, proceed.
Mr D L XIMBI: Thank you, Chair.
IsiXhosa:
Sihlalo, abantu abangazange bangena kulo mcimbi wokuthatha inxaxheba kwabantu ...
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Just hold on, hon Ximbi. What is it, hon Matebus?
Afrikaans:
Mnr M A MATEBUS: Dit voel asof ek vandag by 'n ANC-veldtog is, want daar word net gepreek van die ANC. Kom ons bly op die punt waaroor ons moet praat, en dit is die "Public Service".
English:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, you are out of order now, and I am no longer taking any points of order. And, may I just indicate that you should not use that privilege to deliberately disrupt another member. You may not do that.
Mr D L XIMBI: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Hon Julius was talking about corruption. I do not know whether he was talking about professional-collar people. If I can share this with you ...
IsiXhosa:
Ndikhe ndasebenza kula masipala weSixeko saseKapa, kunjalo nje bendikwisigqeba. Le nto kuthiwa lurhwaphilizo ndiyibonile phaya. Ingxaki abaphathi abazibandakanyi kwinkqubo yokuthatha inxaxheba koluntu. Ndamxelela ke mna u-madam ukuba ...
English:
... I am not "rent-a-darkie" ...
IsiXhosa:
Ungambuza ndatsho kuye kwaye soze ndiphinde ndibe ngu-"garden boy".
English:
I support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Time expired.][Applause.]
Mr V E MTILENI
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,29 Jul 2014,"Take 51 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,16 Jul 2014,"[Take-51] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][mm].doc"
Mr D L XIMBI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 51
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Do you have a point to raise, hon member?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Do you have a point of order and, if so, on what is it based, hon member? [Interjections.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS:: Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): On what is the point of order based? Is it on the previous speaker?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Indeed. [Interjections.]If I understand correctly, the previous speaker referred to the Premier of the Western Cape as "the madam". I was just wondering whether it is parliamentary to use that. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): The unfortunate part is that he has exhausted his time. So ... [Interjections.]
Mr G MICHALAKIS: That was before his time was up. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): No, no, no! Do you want to make a ruling? [Interjections.] I have not made a ruling on this matter. That is what I want to know, because there is a point of order or an issue. [Interjections.]
Mr J W W JULIUS: Chairperson, you were supposed to have made a ruling while he was still at the podium. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): His time was up. How does one make a ruling on a matter when the speaker's time is up? How do I do that? Hon members, I think we are now really getting out of order as members, because we want to behave in a manner that we want to tell the presiding officer how to preside. [Interjections.] If the time of a member is up, it is for me to say that the member's time is up. Now, how do you rise on a point of order on a matter that arose in the member's speech when the member's time is up?
There are procedures. That is why I said yesterday that the Rules make provision for you. If you are aggrieved about something to which you did not receive a satisfactory response, the Rules provide for you as to what to do to address that point of dissatisfaction. You do not have to stand up and demonstrate to me how rude you can be. You do not have to do that.
I am saying this again, we are still moving slowly, but there will come a time when such things will not be tolerated. Nevertheless, let me allow the hon member to continue with the debate.
Mr V E MTILENI
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau)
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 51
Mr V E MTILENI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, Mr Chabane, hon members and guests, I greet you all, avuxeni![Good day!]
HON MEMBERS: Ahee! [Good day!]
Mr V E MTILENI: Ndaa! [Greeted!]
HON MEMBERS: Aa! [Greeted!]
Mr V E MTILENI: I am humbled to take part in this debate discussing Public Service and Administration. As the EFF, we take part in this debate carrying forward the EFF's message that the 20 years of political freedom have not borne much significance for the people of South Africa. The conditions of the people are generally deplorable and show no evidence of their being a liberated people.
Most of the people of South Africa have to engage in mass action or service delivery protests to receive attention from government. Most of our people have to face the wrath of ignorant and arrogant officials. When you visit most government departments, you will be lucky to come out serviced once and satisfied. You will be told to come back on another day because so and so is not in or because someone has not signed or dispatched your application.
As the EFF, we do not see an inspired Public Service. We do not see ethics in service delivery. We do not see a renewed sense of mission in the Public Service.
I will premise my debate on three goals that the Department of Public Service and Administration should be championing. In the strategic plan, the department talks about, firstly, an efficient and effective Public Service; secondly, a capable and professional Public Service and Administration and, lastly, an ethical and clean Public Service and Administration.
These are very critical and good goals. However, in reality, they seem to exist on paper and with a few dedicated officials. The experiences and everyday realities of our masses are a sorry tale. The Batho Pele principles are just boards on the walls of hospitals and other service points showing what must be complied with. You wonder how many government officials understand the Public Service Charter. I challenge the department, in particular hon Minister Chabane, to do an impromptu assessment on how many officials understand, let alone have seen the Public Service Charter.
As the EFF, we feel that our people must be empowered to report and complain. They have the right to be served impartially. They deserve timely service and respect. The former Minister for the Public Service and Administration, the hon Sisulu, made an admission here in Parliament on 13 September 2013, that: "Our people are only asking for the public servants to be on time and at work daily to resolve our problems." However, it seems somehow that officials are becoming the weakest link in this agreement. In many instances, you do not see compliance with the regulations of the department. You would be lucky if your call was not transferred and transferred again, endlessly or until you had run out of airtime, when you just had a simple enquiry.
Can the department make sure that there are strong measures to enforce compliance? This must be followed by real and site-based monitoring, not just the checklists and monitoring of papers that officials fill in on a quarterly basis and send back to the department. The process of accounting has become like a school exercise of filling in the spaces provided - we know how this is normally done in schools - and then submitting it. No one cares whether what has been filled in is a true reflection of our people. No cares about our people and our people continue to suffer.
The second goal is a capable and professional Public Service and Administration. The ruling party is saying they want things done differently. Trevor Manuel said:
Without a professional civil service... we do not stand a chance of transforming South Africa.
[Interjections.]
He commented on the truism of becoming part of the Public Service as a calling and responsibility; the political-administrative interface of the South African Public Service; a lack of proper implementation plans, which he admitted; and the challenges, failures and manipulation of the supply chain system.
The above three matters are critical in the professionalisation of the Public Service. The Public Service has simply become an empty space where someone earns a salary without rewarding government with commitment. The deployment of political affiliated comrades who feel that they cannot be punished ... Thank you. [Time expired.][Applause.]
Mr M KHAWULA
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,19 Aug 2014,"Take 52 [National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,16 Jul 2014,"[Take-52] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][mm].doc"
Mr V E MTILENI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 52
Mr M KHAWULA: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, the Constitution charges the Department of Public Service and Administration with the promotion and maintenance of high standards, professional ethics; providing efficient, economic and effective use of resources; that services must be provided impartially, fairly, equitably and without bias; and it also deals with issues of accountability, transparency, timeous and accurate provision of services. In most of these, hon Mohapi, the Public Service of our country is found wanting.
The expectation of our communities, in line with the principles of the Constitution, is that the administration of the Public Service shall be impartial, transparent, accountable, efficient, effective, nonpolitical, nonpartisan, diversified and amenable to change and transformation.
South Africans expect that our Public Service should be committed to the pursuit of good governance. The Public Service is there to serve individual members of the public with care, empathy and courtesy. This service ethic must be strongly instilled in all public servants at all levels. Hon Minister, you have a mammoth task ahead of you in this regard.
The aim of the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation is to, "improve government service delivery, through performance, mentoring and evaluation." One must appreciate that at least now, all government Ministers and Deputy Ministers are required to sign performance agreements with the President. We hope that there is going to be proper monitoring and evaluation of the executive. We also hope that the outcomes of the evaluations will be acted upon without fear or favour.
The signing of the performance contracts by the executive must not end with the Cabinet at national and provincial levels. This must filter down to local government, all other arms of government and authorities who get a salary from government in order to serve the people.
When the communities begin to feel that they are not getting proper service from government, and that the promises and their expectations are not being met, public protests become the order of the day, as we have experienced in the past. Perceptions prevail that corruption is rife in our Public Service. The problem is that government departments do not always deal with reported cases effectively.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Hon member! You know, I said I was going to do a very painful thing. Hon Parkies!
Mr J P PARKIES: Yes, hon Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Will you return to where you have come from. Thank you very much. Proceed to your seat. [Interjections.] No, I just want to start.
Thank you very much, hon Parkies, for that co-operation. I hope that in so doing, I was just trying to say to other members that I could have done this before. But I wished to do it to a member of the ruling party, however, and I was wishing to find a member of the ruling party ... [Laughter.] [Applause.] ... because I didn't want to be accused tomorrow of having been biased and so forth. So, thank you very much for your co-operation, hon Parkies. Let us not do that again, members! You may proceed, hon member.
Mr M KHAWULA: The government also needs to strongly address the issue of weaknesses in the procurement system. Billions of rands are wasted because of shortfalls in the implementation of proper procedures. The last report of the former Auditor-General, Mr Terence Nombembe, before he left Office, bears testimony to this anomaly. The issue of contracts awarded on merit must be the driving force in our Public Service, hon Minister. The issue of employment and promotions based on merit and capacity must be the driving force behind our administration of the Public Service.
The government must not leave it until it is too late to deal with the issue of wage negotiations with unions in the sector. This practice has hampered the smooth operation of our Public Service in the past.
Lastly, what I want to touch on is the issue of collaboration of Public Service and Administration with Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, to regulate and streamline the salaries of our section 57 employees at municipal level. Some of these municipal employees earn more than the President of the country and this has to be attended to. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Manopole ...
You may proceed with your speech.
Ms G M MANOPOLE
Mr M KHAWULA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 52
Ms G M MANOPOLE: Motlatsamodulasetilo, ke a leboga, hon Deputy Chairperson, the House, the hon Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I greet you all. I am honoured to participate in this debate on the Budget Vote of the Department of Public Service and Administration in this august House. I would like to thank the organisation for giving me this opportunity to do so.
Let me open my speech by quoting one of the great visionary leaders, O R Tambo, when he closed the ANC National Consultative Forum in 1991, the first one in the country after the ANC was unbanned:
We are as capable of running a country as anybody else.
[Interjections.]
A man who can bring this meeting to take place can run a government effectively and efficiently.
The Department of Public Service and Administration plays an integral part in the state machinery, which is critical in the success of the ANC-led government. The ANC-led government is indeed the people's state. This is derived from the principle of the people-centred, people-driven ideology, the nature and character of a consultative and inclusive process, which is people-driven, by the ANC. Even during the difficult times of the struggle, the ANC realised the imperative for a clear statement of the future of South Africa.
The ideal Freedom Charter was born. Let me repeat it again: It was said by the ANC. It keeps on being raised here as if you are claiming it. You cannot claim an easy victory; it is our victory. When the Freedom Charter was born, the ANC convened the Congress of the People to initiate the campaigns of the Freedom Charter.
I would like to set the record straight. There are a few issues that were raised by previous speakers. Hon Julius ... the DA one ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... raised a general statement concerning the issue of corruption. The DA likes to make statements of an inane nature in this House, which are forever rhetoric, especially when they have nothing to say with regard to the debate. They take it as an easy route out. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The ANC-led government promoted and is still promoting good governance, transformation and accountability. That is the reason why they came up with the legislation of the Public Service Commission. It was an initiation of the ANC-led government. Let me just remind hon Julius of the legislative mandate of the Public Service Commission because he seems as if he is not sure about it. Amongst others, its mandate is to investigate, monitor and evaluate the organisation and the administration of the Public Service. That is the legislative mandate.
What we have raised thus does not fit what you said earlier on. [Interjections.] The DA must be - and should be - worried about the public administration management legislation because that is the reason why they are forever asking and seeking clarity with regard to the statistics. They say that the Minister must anticipate, or be a sangoma, telling us whether the public administration management Act should be in place; what the number of officials are who will exit the Public Service. The Minister cannot be a sangoma and say how many of them will be dead.
The implication of this question can mean that you - I believe that perhaps hon Julius and his friends, some of whom are in Public Service and Administration – are contemplating an exit because this public administration management Act is going to expose them. There is a reason why they have these fears, and want to find out how many public servants are doing business with government. [Interjections.]
Let me say that the very same DA, here in the Western Cape, at the Swellendam Local Municipality, was investigated by... [Interjections.]
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Hon Deputy Chair, may I ask the speaker if she would take a question?
Ms G M MANOPOLE: No, I don't have time for that. You can e-mail it to me. I have an e-mail address that I can provide. It is gmanopole ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon member! Hon member! Are you prepared to take a question?
Ms G M MANOPOLE: No, Deputy Chair. At this moment, I will not be able to take it, thank you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Alright! Fine! The hon member is not prepared to take a question. [Interjections.] Don't engage with a member who wants you to take a question. [Interjections.] Please proceed, hon member.
Ms G M MANOPOLE: My apologies, Deputy Chair. It is noted. Let me say that here in the Western Cape, at Swellendam Local Municipality, there was an investigation by the SIU and the findings show that the mayor did business with the municipality without declaring it. [Interjections.]
I am just raising an example to emphasise what I said earlier on, which concerns what the hon Julius had raised on the issue of his fears of exiting the public sector, ensuring that when the public service management Act is put in place, he will be able to move out of this government.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon Kgae, can you please just go back to where you have come from? [Laughter.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: Are you inducting me!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): There is no other way now. [Laughter.]
Mr J P PARKIES: Free inductions!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): You are entering now ... [Interjections.]
Mr L B GAEHLER: I will bow down!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Did you bow to the poor rod? [Interjections.] Hon Gaehler, can you just go back again. Get out and re-enter! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] You may enter now! [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
IsiXhosa:
Mr J P PARKIES: Zivulele umnyango. Umnyango uvulekile! [Kwahlekwa.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Thank you very much. You may proceed to your seat. Proceed, hon member.
Ms G M MANOPOLE: Hon Deputy Chair, I like your induction. This one is very practical. There is no way in which they can miss it. Next time we will know what it is that we are supposed to do.
With regard to the National Development Plan, the NDP, it was a result of an ANC resolution. So, the ANC conference took South Africa on board and consulted broadly, and came up with a diagnostic test report that said: Yes, we want to move South Africa forward. Here is our vision; we do have a plan, the 2030 plan. So, it cannot be that here ...
Setswana:
Bomabina-go-tsholwa e leng DA, ba tla fano, ba batla gore ke diilakgaka. [Interjections.]
Rre O SEFAKO: Dinwamoro!
Mme G M MANOPOLE: Dinwamoro! Ba re NDP e, ba tsamaya le yone, fela tse dingwe ga ba tsamaye le tsone. Ke eng tsone dilo tseo? Ke diilakgaka! [Interjections.]
English:
In the fight against corruption, the ANC-led government put their programmes in place and ensured that those mandates were executed. The anticorruption team was established by the SA Police Service and the National Treasury engaged in anticorruption programmes in Limpopo province. Three hundred and two cases were investigated in Limpopo and resulted in action being taken. Therefore, section 100(1)(b), an intervention by the Cabinet, was initiated.
So, hon Mtileni of EFF comes here making a statement of general dissatisfaction ... [Interjections.]
Mr O SEFAKO: In a red suit!
Ms G M MANOPOLE: ... saying that the people are unhappy in the department. He did not mention a specific problem. [Interjections.] How will the department be able to address the problem if they do not have specific reports and complaints? So, you cannot come to this House and mislead it with general statements. [Interjections.]
The ANC-led government showed appreciation, and ensured that they put the Chief Procurement Officer in the National Treasury in place, leading to the new unit to oversee procurement in the three spheres of government – the ANC-led government! This is part of our manifesto and is still an ongoing programme for us to deal with corruption. [Interjections.]
Let me just take a moment and say I wanted to highlight that against the backdrop of what I mentioned earlier with regard to the people's government. The preparations for assuming state power, while you are still continuing to consult the public broadly, were realised during the course of the struggle. This relates to the NDP. The ANC is a consultative, people-driven organisation. [Interjections.]
To mention but a few broader aspects of the NDP, the ANC prepared to usher in democracy and the principles of ensuring that legislation is put in place. The Public Service must be based on the principles of representivity, competency and accountability, the principles that play an integral part of the administration of the Public Service and ensure that we rally South Africans and the public servants to arrive at mutual respect for dignity.
Dignity was regarded as one of the key issues and a principle of the ANC when democracy was ushered in. They ensured that they legislated and implemented the Batho Pele principles. They were derived to ensure that we restore the dignity of South Africans, because previously public servants did not even recognise the dignity of South Africans.
To deal with addressing the restoration of the dignity of the people of South Africa, the democratic revolution seeks to strive to realise dignity and remove indignity, to improve quality of life and to recognise the department's constitutional and legislative mandate. The proponents of the National Democratic Revolution, NDR, achieved the outcomes-orientated goals that resulted in the introduction of the revitalisation of the Batho Pele principles.
So, no one should say to us that we, the ANC, have deserted our people. We are humbled by South Africans restoring our mandate for the Fifth Parliament when they elected us again to take South Africa forward! As I stand here, I confirm that we, the ANC, believe that the Minister will use the budget that is tabled and ensure that he takes South Africa forward through Public Service and Administration. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
"National Council of Provinces Main",Unrevised Hansard,07 Aug 2014,"Take 53[National Council of Provinces Main].doc"
"National Council of Provinces Main", Unrevised Hansard,16 Jul 2014,"[Take-53] [National Council of Provinces Main][90P-5-085b][mm].doc"
Ms G M MANOPOLE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 16 July 2014 Take: 53
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Chair, I welcome and thank the members for the contributions they made in the debate. There are quite a number of suggestions that came through from members of all the parties. I think it is important to take these into account as we proceed with doing our work. I hope that by the time we engage again some of the suggestions and proposals that were made by members would have been incorporated.
I just want to comment on two aspects. Unfortunately both of them were raise by hon member Julius. The first issue relates to the tender process, specifically allowing the public to attend bid committee meetings. It is a very innovative suggestion. We have the institute for innovations there. I think they will be interested in understanding how you want to do it.
Let me start by phrasing it like this: You know, in order to fight hunger, one of the things you do is to try the simplest way to get food to the people. I hope this suggestion is not like the one which says that, because there are many swimming pools, let us make them fish ponds so that they can have food nearby.[Interjections.]
However, while I hope that you can strengthen that proposal, because it looks like an innovation, but its legal implications might make it impossible to implement. Therefore, look at it and propose it in writing. Take some legal counsel on it so that when it is submitted it will be something with substance. We will look at it because we want to use every opportunity to deal with our problems. [Interjections.]
The other issue is the notion that we have to do away with consultants. Let me say that if South Africa can achieve that, it would probably be one of the few countries on the planet that would have achieved it. It is undesirable, unworkable and wrong. [Interjections.] Let me tell you why. If you stopped dreaming while I am speaking, you would understand. [Interjections.] Consulting is what they call a service industry. There are nations whose economy is based on consulting. It is a service economy. Consulting is used in instances like a once-off project where you need a service to execute the project, but you not want to keep the expertise permanently. You cannot hire people permanently for one project. [Interjections.]
Secondly, there are instances in an institution where long-term projects have to be run, but you do not want to divert personnel from their particular duties to concentrate on such projects.
A problem arises when consultants are used all the time. We must have done a satisfactory assessment whether the work they will be doing could not be done internally. Wanting to do away with consultants completely is a pipe dream. It will never happen; is not good for the economy. We should not even entertain it. [Interjections.]
What has to be managed is the use of consultants. If you want us to debate it further, we can, but I can tell you that we will come to the same conclusion. I appreciate the support of the House. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, thank you very much. I would like to make one last observation. I will keep on making observations as long as I am presiding, until we get it right.
Where is hon Matebus? Hon Matebus is not here now. We are aware that there is a debate around whether or not we have a dress code for sittings of Parliament. [Interjections.] However, tackies are not acceptable. [Interjections.] Your response is an indication that tackies are unacceptable. I have seen a pair of jeans and tackies, but tackies are my main concern. The tackies may give off an unpleasant odour that can cause other members discomfort. Those hon members close to Mr Matebus, please bring this to his attention. Let us collectively improve the decorum of the House. Thank you for your co-operation. [Applause.]
The House adjourned at 15:56.
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