Hansard: NCOP:Consideration of Report of Select Committee on Appropriations - Hearing on the Third & Fourth Quarter Expenditure on the National Health Insurance Grant in the 2012-13 Financial Year
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 21 Aug 2013
Summary
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Minutes
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WEDNESDAY, 21 AUGUST 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
_________________
The Council met at 15:03.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENT: The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
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START OF DAY
NEW MEMBER
(Announcement)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, I would like to announce the appointment of the hon K V Kekesi owing to the resignation of the hon Maine. The hon Kekesi was sworn in yesterday, and I take this opportunity to welcome the hon member and wish her well as a member of the Council. [Applause.]
NOTICES OF MOTION: Mr D A WORTH
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The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela)
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
(1)notes that the Auditor-General's report released last week stated that nine institutions, all municipalities in the Free State except for the municipal power distributor Centlec, had disclaimers and adverse opinions issued against them for the past three years and had failed to improve, which is cause for serious concern;
(2)also notes that the Auditor-General remarked that these municipal entities failed to improve mainly due to a lack of stability in leadership and administration, which hampered efforts to improve financial performance; and
(3)further notes that achieving clean audits at local government authorities and other state institutions can only be realised if adequate and competent personnel are put in place to perform what should be basic financial and management functions.
Mr S H PLAATJIE
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Mr D A WORTH
Mr S H PLAATJIE: Deputy Chair, I hereby move that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the Council-
(1)debates the North West local government's shenanigans, especially in the Ditsobotla Local Municipality;
(2)notes that the recent introduction of prepaid electricity in Lichtenburg town in Ditsobotla is unconstitutional;
(3)further notes that the municipal manager was instructed to appoint Camivorx (Pty) Ltd that will provide prepaid electricity, without following due processes; and
(4)calls on both the North West Premier and the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to investigate the contract awarded to Camivorx (Pty) Ltd. This will lead to the shedding of jobs and the municipality will be unable to raise revenue.
Mr D JOSEPH
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Mr S H PLAATJIE
Mr D JOSEPH: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
(1)discusses the policy on Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses which was created to help the poor;
(2)notes that many RDP houses are being sold, some without deeds of sale, and evidence suggests that the poor are being exploited and many first-time government beneficiary homeowners are becoming backyard dwellers again;
(3)also notes that this situation further leads to an increase in informal settlements and the occupation of government land and public open spaces earmarked for other developments; and
(4)recognises that government must review this policy on the RDP and protect the poor from illegal deals and the loss of their RDP houses.
MOTION WITHOUT NOTICE: Mrs A N D QIKANI / AZM MNGUNI//TH / END OF TAKE
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NOTICE OF MOTION: Mr D JOSEPH
WESTERN CAPE LAND REZONED FOR URBAN DEVELOPMENT
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs A N D QIKANI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with concern and shock that the DA-led City of Cape Town has decided to extend the city's urban edge in order to make 300 hectares of valuable agricultural land in the horticultural area of Philippi available to developers for housing and commercial development, following the approval by the DA-led Western Cape provincial government to rezone the land for urban development, despite the outcry and objection of the public as well as environmental experts, academics and the findings of various studies;
(2) further notes that the agricultural area of Philippi, which is commonly known as "the breadbasket and aquifer" of Cape Town, produces approximately 100 000 tons of fresh produce per year that not only supplies supermarkets, but also low-income earners and poor households on the Cape Flats through informal traders;
(3) notes even further that the city defends its decision by basing it on misleading and unconvincing grounds, and excuses such as the city's housing crisis and that the local farmers want to move out of farming while these excuses are not supported by research findings, and while experts condemn the decision as it would raise the price of vegetables in Cape Town and endanger the water sources in the area;
(4) furthermore notes that a study by the city itself in 2010 found that even at the current densities, there is enough land within the urban edge to accommodate growth; and
(5) calls on the Western Cape MEC for Local Government, Environmental Affairs and Development Planning to set the decision aside, and also calls on the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries to intervene as a matter of urgency if necessary and appropriate the land to ensure that it is preserved for agricultural purposes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is there any objection to the motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.
Ms E C VAN LINGEN
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Mrs A N D QIKANI
HOUSING BACKLOG IN KOUGA MUNICIPALITY
(Draft Resolution)
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the DA, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that Kouga Municipality, according to the 2011 Census figures, is the municipality in the Cacadu District with the worst possible housing backlog with in excess of 51% of households without proper sanitation;
(2) further notes that reports reveal that there are approximately 3 292 bucket toilets in the Kouga Local Municipality alone, and a further 1 367 households without any toilets, and that the RDP housing backlog is an estimated 9 000 houses;
(3) notes even further that the backlog in bulk municipal infrastructure services must be urgently upgraded in capacity before any housing can be constructed, with the backlog costs being approximately R480 million;
(4) acknowledges that the province granted R62 million to supplement the municipal infrastructure grant funds of R27,9 million in May 2013, but this is not sufficient to improve the lives of the communities in Sea Vista, Polla Park, Shukushukuma, Stofwolk, Ocean View, Loerie and many other towns in Kouga; and
(5) calls on the Minister of Human Settlements and the Minister Water and Environmental Affairs to please support the Kouga Municipality financially to alleviate the distress through the various programmes such as the municipal infrastructure grant, the regional bulk infrastructure grant from the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs and the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is there any objection to the motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.
Ms Z C FAKU
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Ms E C VAN LINGEN
CAPE TOWN HIGH COURT'S RULING WELCOMED
(Draft Resolution)
Ms Z C FAKU: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes and welcomes the recent ruling of the Cape Town High Court to set aside the decision of the Western Cape MEC of Local Government, Environmental Affairs and Development Planning, to approve the controversial development of the historic 18th century Lutheran Church site along Bree Street in Cape Town to accommodate parking, shops and offices;
(2) further notes that the site is situated in a declared urban conservation area;
(3) also notes that the MEC has approved the development despite numerous objections;
(4) further notes that had the court not intervened, the controversial development would have impacted severely on the architectural, aesthetic and historical significance of the area; and
(5) calls on all relevant authorities, including municipal and provincial planning authorities, not to ignore the public and other views and objections in land use matters, and also not to allow subjective and/or uninformed and/or ulterior grounds or motives to take preference over the duty to preserve the historic and cultural heritage for future generations.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mrs N W MAGADLA
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Ms Z C FAKU
CONDOLENCES ON PASSING OF UDM MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT NTOPILE MARCEL KGANYAGO
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs N W MAGADLA: Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with profound sadness the passing away of the United Democratic Movement, UDM, Deputy President and Member of Parliament, the hon Ntopile Marcel Kganyago on Wednesday, 17 July 2013;
(2) further notes that the hon Kganyago dedicated his life to serving the people of South Africa in various leadership positions, including serving as a municipal councillor in Polokwane from 2000 until 2004, member of the provincial legislature in Limpopo in 2004, Deputy Minister of Public Works from 2004 to 2009 and served as a Member of Parliament from April 2004 until his death;
(3) acknowledges that the death of the hon Kganyago has robbed our people of a committed servant who dedicated his life to be the champion of their plight; and
(4) takes this opportunity to extend its heartfelt condolences to his wife, children, friends and colleagues in the United Democratic Movement, the UDM.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms M L MOSHODI
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Mrs N W MAGADLA
WOMAN GIVES BIRTH ON FLOOR OF HOSPITAL'S RECEPTION AREA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M L MOSHODI: Hon Deputy Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that a woman allegedly gave birth to her baby on the floor in the reception area at the Gugulethu Maternity and Obstetrics Unit without the assistance of medical staff and in full view of other patients;
(2) further notes that after her arrival at the clinic in the early hours, she was unable to get assistance or attention from the nursing staff despite shouting for help and being unable to walk;
(3) also notes that a security guard eventually offered to look for her folder so that she could proceed to the maternity section while no assistance or a wheelchair to get to the maternity section was offered to her;
(4) condemns this lack of service and unacceptable behaviour of the medical staff at this clinic; and
(5) calls on the Western Cape department of health to investigate this matter urgently and to take appropriate remedial and disciplinary steps.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr A LEES
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Ms M L MOSHODI
FINDINGS OF COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO CONSIDER ALLEGATIONS OF MISCONDUCT AGAINST THE HON PULE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A LEES: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move the following motion without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes the findings of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members' Interests panel appointed to consider the allegations of serious misconduct against the hon Pule;
(2) further notes that these findings include that Mr Mngqibisa benefited unduly from his close relationship with the hon Pule while she held high office as a member of the South African Cabinet;
(3) condemns the actions of the hon Pule that led to the undue enrichment of and benefits accrued to Mr Mngqibisa;
(4) welcomes the imposition on the hon Pule of the maximum penalty allowed by the Rules of Parliament; and
(5) Calls upon the SA Police Service and the National Prosecuting Authority to ensure that all allegations of a criminal nature are fully investigated, and where crimes have been committed, that the relevant persons are prosecuted with the full force of the law.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is there any objection to the motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.
Mr M P SIBANDE
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Mr A LEES
METRORAIL TO LAUNCH FURTHER SECURITY UNIT IN CAPE TOWN
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes and welcomes the announcement by Metrorail in Cape Town to launch a further security unit shortly, aimed at boosting security measures on trains and to watch over commuters following a recent finding by the Cape Town High Court that Metrorail's security system is inadequate and that Metrorail has made no attempt at all to employ more platform marshals to assist the train guards or to ensure that trains are not allowed to move with open doors;
(2) further notes that despite security measures implemented by Metrorail, commuters often hamper their efforts by damaging trains, not paying for tickets, holding train doors open and the like;
(3) also notes that despite Metrorail's announcement that it has doubled its security in the Western Cape year-on-year since 2009, such security measures are not visible and/or are far from adequate as overcrowded trains are moving with commuters hanging out the doors and standing between coaches; and
(4) calls on Metrorail and all transport authorities to ensure that adequate security measures are developed and implemented as a matter of urgency, not only on all trains but also at all stations to ensure that it be enforced at all times.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr G G MOKGORO
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Mr M P SIBANDE
SPRINGBOKS VICTORIOUS OVER ARGENTINA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G G MOKGORO: Deputy Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes the convincing victory of the Springboks over the Argentina Pumas in their start to the 2013 Four-Nations Rugby Championship at a packed FNB Stadium in Soweto last Saturday;
(2) further notes that the Springboks ran in nine tries against Argentina's only try scored as a consolation in the last minute of the game;
(3) also notes that the 73-13 victory of the Springboks is a record winning margin for any team in the competition;
(4) takes this opportunity to congratulate the Springboks and its coaching and management team on their performance and victory and for doing South Africa proud on the occasion of the Nelson Mandela Sport and Culture Day; and
(5) wishes them well on their return match against the Pumas in Mendoza in Argentina on Saturday and on other matches to follow in the competition.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms M G BOROTO
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Mr G G MOKGORO
FREEDOM OF CITY OF JOHANNESBURG CONFERRED ON SOPHIE WILLIAMS DE BRUYN
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M G BOROTO: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes and welcomes the conferring of the Freedom of the City of Johannesburg on a veteran of the women's struggles, Imbokodo and the ANC Women's League National Executive Committee member, Comrade Sophie Williams de Bruyn;
(2) further notes that Comrade Sophie de Bruyn together with comrades such as Lilian Ngoyi, Rahima Moosa, Amina Cachalia, etc, helped to organise more than 20 000 women of all races who participated in the historic march against the pass laws in 1956;
(3) also notes that it is these because of these women and their heroism that our country continues to commemorate annually on 9 August; and
(4) takes this opportunity to express its profound appreciation to the leadership of the City of Johannesburg for conferring the Freedom of the City on one of the fearless champions of our people's struggle for liberation who remains the symbol for the fight for the emancipation of women in our society.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms M P THEMBA
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Ms M G BOROTO
RAPE VICTIM LEFT TO DIE IN THE VELD
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M P THEMBA: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with shock and utter dismay that a 31-year-old woman and mother of a two-year-old son was brutally raped and left to die in the veld on the N12 near Warrenton in the Northern Cape;
(2) further notes that she was apparently dragged to the spot where she was raped and where her attacker left her to die in the cold with temperatures plummeting to below freezing point at the time;
(3) reaffirms that South Africa can no longer accept the scourge of rape, murder and violence against women;
(4) calls on all South Africans and the relevant authorities to join hands to fight and root out this barbaric scourge; and
(5) takes this opportunity to call on the police and the prosecuting authority to leave no stone unturned to bring the perpetrators to book, and to ensure that they face the full might of the law.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr W F FABER
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Ms M P THEMBA
SOUTH AFRICAN ATHLETES' POOR PERFORMANCE IN INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Chair, on behalf of the DA, I hereby wish to move a motion without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes that Johan Cronjé snatched a surprise bronze in the men's 1 500-metre final on Saturday - the nation's only medal - to close out the South African team's worst performance at the biennial showpiece since they failed to win a medal at the 2007 event in Lusaka;
(2) further notes that the countries that South Africa is competing against have spent so long developing their intellectual capital that they have actually earned success;
(3) notes that the nation's best chance for a medal in Moscow, Caster Semenya, failed to qualify in the women's 800 metre, while other hopefuls struggled in their events;
(4) also notes that only six athletes were able to reach finals by making it through qualifying rounds of the 25 who competed;
(5) further notes that 11 were unable to progress beyond the first round of their events;
(6) acknowledges that the current state of athletics is not for lack of people, knowledge or talented athletes - we need to be able to link those things together;
(7) notes further that Athletics SA's administration is partly to blame for this performance in Moscow;
(8) also notes that there have been numerous scandals at the ASA, and it seems as if the national Minister is turning a blind eye to them; and
(9) urges that everyone who plays a role in South African athletics should be held responsible for sports failures, including administrators, coaches, and mainly government with weak leadership and no long-term strategic plan.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is there any objection to the motion?
Hon MEMBERS: Yes!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of a motion.
Mr T E CHAANE
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Mr W F FABER
BAFANA BAFANA'S VICTORY OVER BURKINA FASO
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T E CHAANE: Deputy Chair, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes the 2-0 victory of Bafana Bafana over Burkina Faso during the international friendly that formed part of the inaugural Nelson Mandela Sport and Culture Day at the FNB Stadium in Soweto last Saturday;
(2) further notes that with this victory Bafana Bafana bounced back after they lost to Nigeria in Durban last week;
(3) also notes that Bafana Bafana needs to beat Botswana next week to have a chance to put themselves in contention to make it through to the next round of qualifiers for World Cup 2014;
(4) takes this opportunity to congratulate Bafana Bafana and its coaching and management on doing South Africa proud with their performance and their victory; and
(5) wishes them well on their coming qualifying fixture against Botswana in Durban and further qualifying matches to follow.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms K V KEKESI
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Mr T E CHAANE
CONDOLENCES ON PASSING OF DR JEAN SWANSON-JACOBS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms K V KEKETSI: Hon Deputy Chairperson, on behalf of the ANC, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with profound sadness the untimely death of the former Deputy Minister of Social Development, Dr Jean Swanson-Jacobs, who recently passed away after a short illness in Cape Town;
(2) further notes that Dr Swanson-Jacobs was a defender of human rights who served Parliament with the utmost commitment and humility as a member of numerous portfolio committees before her appointment as a Deputy Minister, including serving as a member of the Portfolio Committees on Education, Arts and Culture, and Quality of Life and Status of Women, Trade and Industry, Public Enterprises, and Joint Rules, and on the Language Policy Committee;
(3) also notes even further that Dr Swanson-Jacobs also served in numerous structures of the ANC and its alliance partners, including serving as a member of the United Women's Congress of the Surrey Estate branch, executive member of the Bellville ANC branch, ANC northern suburbs region and ANC Western Cape province;
(4) notes that Dr Swanson-Jacobs also worked as a senior lecturer in Social Psychology at the University of the Western Cape, where she also served as a member of the Transformation Forum before she became a Member of Parliament in the National Assembly in 1997; and
(5) takes this opportunity to convey its profound condolences to the family, friends and comrades of Dr Swanson-Jacobs.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr B L MASHILE
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Ms K V KEKETSI
POLICE OFFICIALS CONVICTED OF MULTIPLE OFFENCES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B L MASHILE: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with shock and the utmost concern that 1 448 members of the SA Police Service have been convicted of multiple and serious offences ranging from assault, theft, housebreaking, kidnapping, robbery, murder, attempted murder, rape, attempted rape and other serious crimes while they remain in the employ of the Police Service;
(2) further notes that more than 200 of these convicted members are senior officers such as brigadiers, colonels, lieutenant-colonels and captains;
(3) also notes that more than 300 members were convicted before being appointed to the Police Service while more than 1 000 were convicted after they had joined the Police Service;
(4) expresses its concern that these members who are entrusted to prevent and combat crime, to protect our people, and to uphold law and order and discipline in the Police Service are convicted criminals that apparently have no respect for the law;
(5) takes this opportunity to call on the Minister of Police and the Commissioner of Police to investigate this state of affairs as a matter of urgency; and
(6) calls on the Minister to take immediate steps to dismiss these members and to put appropriate measures in place to ensure that people with criminal records are not appointed to the Police Service.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Ms N D Ntwanambi)/ Mpho/.../TM/END OF TAKE
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Mr B L MASHILE
THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE GLOBE CHAPTER AND ITS IMPORTANCE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Ms N D Ntwanambi): Chairperson, I move the draft resolution, printed in the name of the Chief Whip of the Council, as follows:
That the House-
(1) notes that Parliament agreed to the establishment of a GLOBE Chapter in Parliament in June 2011 upon the adoption of the "Report of the Parliamentary Delegation to the 16th Conference of the Parties (COP 16) Meeting held in Cancún, Mexico, from 29 November to 10 December 2010";
(2) recalls that Parliament hosted the National Consultative Seminar on Climate Change from 28 October until 29 October 2011, and later hosted the GLOBE Legislative Forum meeting on Climate Change on 3 December 2011, prior to COP 17, and both reports were considered and adopted by the House;
(3) recognises that the GLOBE Chapter will play a critical role in strengthening legislative action on climate change by developing a set of legislative principles and supporting GLOBE international members in advancing such principles; and
(4) resolves that, subject to the concurrence of the National Assembly, the GLOBE Chapter be recognised as a focus group of the Parliamentary Group on International Relations (PGIR).
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FIRST ORDER: Ms Z C FAKU
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MOTION: The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS – HEARING ON THE Third and Fourth Quarter Expenditure Report on the Community Library Services Grant for provinces FOR THE 2012-13 Financial Year
Ms Z C FAKU: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon MEC from Gauteng, Chief Whip and all members, I extend greetings to you. The Select Committee on Appropriations invited the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and North West provinces to make submissions on their spending of the community library services grant on the third and fourth quarters of the 2012-13 financial year. However, KwaZulu-Natal and the North West were unable to honour the invitation. The committee also extended the invitation to the Department of Arts and Culture and the National Treasury to make presentations.
The purpose of the community library services grant is to transform urban and rural community library infrastructure, facilities and services, primarily targeting previously disadvantaged communities through a recapitalised programme at provincial level in support of local government and national initiatives.
The National Treasury reported that the community library services grant was allocated a total of R615 million for the 2012-13 financial year. By the end of the third quarter, the provinces had spent R370,1 million or 60,2% except for Limpopo at 37,9%, the Eastern Cape at 42,2% and the North West at 50,6%.
At the end of the 2012-13 financial year, grant expenditure amounted to R518,8 million, or 84%. The Limpopo, Eastern Cape and North West provinces continued to spend poorly in the fourth quarter by spending less than 75% of their total allocations for the 2012-13 financial year. On the other hand, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape spent their 2012-13 allocations in full by the end of the 2012-13 financial year.
With regard to the grant expenditure reported by Gauteng and the Western Cape, the bulk of this expenditure is related to transfers to municipalities and the actual expenditure figures still need to be verified by the municipalities. The municipalities' year-end expenditure results are only available three months after the provincial financial year has ended, which raises concerns regarding the credibility of provincial expenditure results.
The Eastern Cape reported that it received a total allocation of R87,7 million for the 2012-13 financial year, of which R61,7 million or 74,9% was spent by financial year-end. The underspending of the grant allocation was due to a number of challenges, including delays in awarding a modular libraries tender; delays in the appointment of 48 librarians due to slow recruitment processes; the nonregistration of service providers on the provincial database resulting in the late issuing of orders to service providers; delays in the construction of libraries due to issues of land allocation and municipal council resolutions; and challenges with Coega as the implementing agent in respect of infrastructure projects and challenges including capacity constrains within Coega and challenges with contractors due to nonperformance.
The Limpopo province reported that of the total allocation of R82,7 million, it only spent R49,7 million or 60% by the end of the 2012-13 financial year. The province indicated that of the total unspent allocation of R33 million, it requested R10,9 million in rollovers for outstanding capital works and R4,6 million in respect of committed goods and services expenditure.
The underspending of the 2012-13 grant allocation was attributed to capacity constraints within the department, which included the following. The senior manager for library services, the provincial librarian and the infrastructure manager did not possess the requisite skills and competencies to manage the grant, libraries and the construction of library projects. Also, the department experienced some challenges with the provincial department of public works as the implementing agent for infrastructure projects. In addition, the department had been unable to mediate land disputes between municipalities and traditional leadership authorities, which further delayed the construction of certain libraries.
Regarding the key findings by the committee, there is a need for a detailed report on the spending patterns and service delivery performance of this grant since its inception in order to gauge whether the grant funding is serving its purpose. The spending reflected by Gauteng and the Western Cape is only an indication of transfers made to municipalities, not necessarily actual spending.
There are a number of weaknesses in the supply-chain management units within the majority of provinces leading to poor adjudication processes, particularly in the Eastern Cape as the provincial department does not have a technical expert representative on the bid adjudication committee. The Eastern Cape is struggling to terminate contracts with poor-performing service providers, especially Coega. The province relies on one official to monitor library projects in the whole province. There are huge cost variations in the libraries built in Limpopo, ranging from R360 000 to R5 million, which could imply that such structures are of varying standards. The National Treasury indicated that some of the provincial plans for the 2013-14 financial year lack credibility, especially those of Limpopo.
The recommendations of the Select Committee on Appropriations are the following. The national Department of Arts and Culture should provide a committee within a month of the adoption of this report by the NCOP, with a detailed report on the performance of the community library services grant since its inception, particularly concerning the following: the purchase of library materials, the provision of library services for the visually impaired, the construction of new libraries, the upgrading and maintenance of existing libraries, and the appointment of new librarians.
The National Treasury and the national Department of Arts and Culture should ensure that expenditure reports in Gauteng and the Western Cape are a true reflection of their actual expenditure, and not only of funds transferred to municipalities. The provincial departments of arts and culture in Gauteng and the Western Cape should develop monitoring mechanisms for the funds transferred to municipalities.
The national Department of Arts and Culture and the National Treasury should support provincial departments of arts and culture in developing capacity within their supply-chain management units and specifically provide assistance with the bid adjudication processes of Limpopo and the Eastern Cape.
The national Department of Arts and Culture together with National Treasury should support the Eastern Cape to ensure that the province is able to terminate its contracts with service providers who fail to deliver. The Eastern Cape should ensure that it has sufficient personnel for monitoring and evaluating projects funded by the grant.
The national Department of Arts and Culture should support Limpopo in developing standardised structures for libraries to avoid huge variations in the construction costs of libraries. The national Department of Arts and Culture should support provincial departments in developing credible plans, and further ensure that all the plans it approves for provinces are credible. Thank you so much, Deputy Chair. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SECOND ORDER: Mr C J DE BEER /Sam// JN-checked// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 407
FIRST ORDER: Ms Z C FAKU
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS - HEARINGS ON THE THIRD AND FOURTH QUARTER EXPENDITURE REPORT ON THE
LIMA/LETSEMA PROJECT GRANT IN THE 2012-2013 FINANCIAL YEAR
Mr C J DE BEER: Hon Chairperson and hon members, the strategic goal of the grant is to reduce poverty through increased food production initiatives. The purpose of the grant is to assist vulnerable South African farming communities to achieve an increase in agricultural production and investment in infrastructure that unlocks agricultural production.
The following are the outcomes of the grant: increased production efficiency; increased agricultural production at both household and national level; improved farming income; maximised job opportunities and reduced poverty; and an increased number of households assisted in coping with the escalating food prices.
The observations and findings of the committee are as follows. A number of provinces had huge expenditure spikes during the last quarter of the financial year. Such expenditure spikes are indications of poor planning. The committee noted with concern that these spending spikes have the potential for fiscal dumping and irregular expenditure.
Apart from spending spikes, one province, that is Gauteng, underspent by close to 40%, and the committee noted with concern that the underspending compromised service delivery. Some of the underspending was due to delays within supply-chain processes, capacity constraints and service providers who fail to deliver. These are indications of serious weaknesses in supply-chain processes in most provinces.
Some of the provincial departments submit unsound plans and lack risk management, show unrealistic targets or do not show long-term plans to ensure that recipients become self-sustaining. This situation casts doubt on whether the national transferring officer provided provinces with a set of norms and standards for the administration of the grant.
The distribution of tractors was not based on the plans from the provinces, especially in the Free State where the tractors could not be utilised due to delays in registration and lack of budgeted funds for operational costs. This is also an indication that there is no co-ordinated planning between the national department and the provinces.
The committee raised concerns with the viability and sustainability of the One-Family, One-Garden campaign in view of the general inadequate supply of water to households in some communities. The Eastern Cape department of rural development and agrarian reform is struggling to recover tractors that were given to co-operatives.
The recommendations by the committee are as follows. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries should ensure that approved provincial plans spread expenditure over the year – that is, the financial year - to avoid March spending spikes that might lead to fiscal dumping. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries with National Treasury should closely monitor the provinces that underspend to avoid any further compromise in service delivery in those provinces. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and National Treasury should prioritise supply-chain management, monitoring and evaluation when providing capacity-building support to provinces. The department should ensure that it approves credible plans that also include contingency plans for unforeseen circumstances. It should also ensure that any material support, like the supply of tractors to provinces, is informed by provincial needs and plans to avoid delays in their utilisation. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries should also provide support to the Eastern Cape department of rural development and agrarian reform to recover the tractors that have been allocated to the co-operatives. Also, the department should support provincial departments to ensure that their One-Family, One-Garden campaigns are sustainable. Chairperson, I move that the House adopt the report. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THIRD ORDER: Mr B L MASHILE / GG/END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 408
SECOND ORDER: Mr C J DE BEER
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS - HEARING ON THE THIRD AND FOURTH QUARTER EXPENDITURE ON THE
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE GRANT IN THE 2012-13 FINANCIAL YEAR
Mr B L MASHILE: Deputy Chairperson, the strategic goal of the National Health Insurance, NHI, grant is to improve the service-delivery platform, to strengthen the performance of the health system in readiness for the full roll-out of the NHI through selected pilot sites, and to have a more viable NHI design based on experience at these pilot sites.
The grant is used to accelerate health-sector improvement by strengthening the role of the national Department of Health in accelerating the delivery of infrastructure in order to assist provinces with weaker capacities in the preparation phase of the NHI roll-out. This grant has two components: Firstly, the NHI fund; and, secondly, health facility revitalisation.
During the hearings the committee made a number of observations, among which are the following: the March expenditure spikes; the policy issues; and administrative challenges at a number of institutions.
The March expenditure spikes are an indication of poor planning and have the potential to lead to fiscal dumping, unnecessary rollovers and delayed desired outcomes. This kind of spending is also an indication that monitoring and support by the relevant national department is not as expected.
The policy issues that some institutions face include the following: a need for devolution of power to the districts; a lack of clarity on the roles of some statutory bodies, such as district councils, health authorities, health committees and hospital boards; the delay in the finalisation of key policy documents delays staffing and supply-chain management processes.
The administrative challenges observed include: poor revenue collection; poor planning; capacity constraints; staff apathy towards the NHI; and prolonged staffing processes.
In view of the abovementioned observations, the committee has made the following recommendations. The national Department of Health should continue to provide support to hospitals to ensure that they are able to collect revenue due to them. The department should develop policy, norms and standards that will shape the devolution of powers to districts for effective service delivery. The department and the National Treasury should conduct regular monitoring of spending to avoid March spending spikes that might lead to fiscal dumping. The department should develop policy that will provide clarity on the roles of district councils, health authorities, health committees and hospital boards. The department should avoid ad hoc amendments of business plans since funds are released on these approved plans. The department should ensure the speedy finalisation of key policy documents, such as delegations in order to unblock delays in appointing staff and slow supply-chain management processes. The department should ensure the speedy finalisation of contracts for general practitioners. The department should ensure that there are staff to deal with the NHI deliverables at district and institution levels. The department should speedily take the lead in change management to avoid any further apathy towards NHI piloting among district officials. Finally, in future the department should reconcile its figures before submission to the committee to avoid inconsistency in reporting.
The committee wants to emphasise the need for co-ordination and expedition on all matters required to ensure that the NHI is rolled out. The Department of Health should provide the necessary leadership for the successful preparation in the respective pilot sites. The Select Committee on Appropriations presents this report for consideration by the House. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
ABSTAIN: Eastern Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FOURTH ORDER: Mr S D MONTSITSI / AZM MNGUNI//TH/END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 409
THIRD ORDER: Mr B L MASHILE
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS - HEARING ON THE DINALEDI SCHOOLS GRANT IN THE 2012-13 FINANCIAL YEAR
Mr S D MONTSITSI: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister September, congratulations on your appointment. Deputy Chairperson, we are dealing with a report here which deals with the Dinaledi schools grant for the year 2012-13. What the Select Committee on Appropriations did was to invite three provinces. These were Limpopo, the North West and the Western Cape. The objective was to ensure that they made submissions on how the Dinaledi schools grant was utilised by these provinces.
Unfortunately, we had a situation in which two provinces actually underspent in terms of the presentations they made. Limpopo, for instance, was allocated R14,4 million, and they underspent by R8,7 million. The Western Cape was also given their own allocation and
underspent by R4,6 million. The other province that we invited, the North West, did not honour the committee's invitation.
There were comments made by the national Department of Basic Education. The department raised concerns with respect to the fact that the Dinaledi schools were not producing to the optimum level. The department indicated that the schools only scored 10% higher than normal schools in mathematics and science. We would remember that the purpose of the Dinaledi grant is to promote the teaching and learning of mathematics and physical science; and also to increase and encourage the number of learners taking the two subjects. The main focus was also to ensure that girl-learners were able to participate and excel.
With respect to the comments made by the national Department of Basic Education, the department indicated that the amount that they spent to fund this particular programme was not commensurate with the amount of money spent on the grant. The department indicated that they had a strategy to ensure that they were able to intervene effectively.
The four-pronged intervention strategy that the department laid out to the committee was that the department was going to deal with matters of the curriculum, matters of annual national assessment, workbooks and infrastructure in order to improve the effectiveness of the grant.
The National Treasury report on the fourth-quarter grant was also presented by National Treasury. They reported that during the 2012-13 financial year, they allocated R105 million in total to Dinaledi schools. The only outcome expenditure was R82,3 million, which is 81% of the total amount that was given.
Limpopo, the Western Cape, the North West and the Free State were the biggest contributors to underspending. They underspent by a total of R19,2 million at the end of the 2012-13 financial year. The Dinaledi schools in the Western Cape are mostly based in the townships of Gugulethu, Nyanga, etc. The only problem is the casual manner with which the government of the Western Cape, particularly the education department, approaches service delivery.
The failure of provincial departments of education to procure from service providers, particularly in the Western Cape, and the poor supply-chain management skills, which resulted in cancellations in Limpopo, Mpumalanga and the Free State, are also a source of concern; as is the case with respect to the payment transfers which were supposed to have been made particularly by Gauteng and Mpumalanga.
The finding that has been made by the committee with respect to this presentation is that it is unclear whether the Dinaledi schools grant spent on teacher training is achieving the desired results as no effective pre- and post-assessment of teachers takes place. Secondly, the Dinaledi schools score only 10% higher in mathematics and science than schools that are part of the normal school programme. Thirdly, Limpopo indicated that it had requested a rollover of R8,5 million in respect of the R8,7 million it underspent at the end of that financial year. Fourthly, the underspending of R4,9 million or 51% by the Western Cape was due to noncompliance with the national centralised procurement process and the poor management of its own internal supply-chain management processes. Fifthly, the underspending of R2,5 million or 22,2% by the North West was due to a range of problems within the provincial Treasury and the provincial education department. It seems as if the two departments do not talk to each other. The last point on the findings of the committee is that the 99,8% and 100% spending reported by Mpumalanga and Gauteng respectively was only an indication of the funds transferred and not the actual spending by implementing agencies in those provinces.
The committee went on to make recommendations as follows. One, the Department of Basic Education should provide the committee with its evaluation report after its release on 15 May 2013. Two, the Department of Basic Education should monitor the capacity-building of teachers for mathematics and science to ensure that the grant achieves its desired outcome. Three, the National Treasury, the provincial treasuries and the Department of Basic Education should work jointly to build capacity for delivery within the provinces. Four, the National Treasury and the Department of Basic Education should jointly monitor the situation in Limpopo to ensure that the province is able to spend rolled-over funds as well as new allocations. Five, the National Treasury and the Department of Basic Education should provide support to the Western Cape to ensure that its procurement processes do not unnecessarily delay spending and service delivery. Six, the National Treasury and the Department of Basic Education should monitor the situation in the North West to ensure that there is effective and efficient spending. Lastly, the National Treasury and the Department of Basic Education should ensure that where funds are transferred, the expenditure reports should include the actual expenditure for the services rendered. We move for adoption, Deputy Chair. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FIFTH ORDER: Mr T E CHAANE /Mosa//A N N(ed) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 410
FOURTH ORDER: Mr S D MONTSITSI
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS -FINANCIAL AND FISCAL COMMISSION'S REPORT ENTITLED "SUSTAINING LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCES - FINAL REPORT ON THE FINANCIAL AND FISCAL COMMISSION'S PUBLIC HEARINGS ON THE REVIEW OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT FISCAL FRAMEWORK"
Mr T E CHAANE: Deputy Chair, on 22 May this year, the committee met with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, to receive a report regarding the local government fiscal framework. The local government fiscal framework is viewed as the funding arrangement or framework required to ensure that local government and individual municipalities are sufficiently and financially resourced to fulfil their constitutional mandates to render services to communities.
The FFC undertook the study with a view to responding to the following critical question: How can the current local government fiscal framework be configured to appropriately fund the various needs of different types of municipalities in the country in order to ensure they are financially and fiscally well capacitated to fulfil their constitutional mandate?
In responding to this question, the commission identified the following as some of the guiding principles. One, a better understanding of the dynamic between fiscal capacity and fiscal effort needs to inform any revision of the fiscal framework. Two, in balancing expenditure needs with revenue resources, a distinction needs to be made between a lack of fiscal effort and a lack of fiscal capacity - and the policy response needs to be appropriate to the underlying causes.
In simple terms, the fiscal capacity refers to the potential and ability to raise revenue. Within the context of the local government fiscal framework, fiscal capacity would refer to the ability of municipalities to raise their own revenue depending on the ability of residents within those municipalities to pay for rates, taxes and services.
There are however certain socioeconomic realities that create some disparities in various municipalities that have the potential to negatively impact on the fiscal capacity of certain municipalities. Such realities include the costs of providing public goods and services, underdevelopment, differences in geographic topographies, population sizes and movements, income levels, unemployment, economic shocks, etc.
On the other hand, fiscal efforts refer to municipalities' capacity to collect fees. In this case, there are also some unpleasant realities such as challenges of appropriate billing and debt collection in most municipalities.
While the committee welcomes the study undertaken by the FFC, the committee is, however, of the view that certain issues raised by the commission need further research and further engagement with relevant stakeholders, such as traditional leaders, the SA Local Government Association, relevant government departments and entities.
The committee's recommendations are as follows. One, the commission should engage other stakeholders on further research regarding a tourism levy as a source of revenue for rural municipalities. Two, the commission should engage other stakeholders on how rural municipalities can be made viable. Three, the commission should engage National Treasury regarding further research to assess the extent to which smaller municipalities can benefit from the fuel levy. Four, the commission should engage the traditional leaders as stakeholders on the findings of this study. Five, the commission should engage Salga and Eskom with regard to the surcharges on electricity as a source of revenue for municipalities. Six, the National Treasury and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs should look into capacity constraints of departments that are supposed to provide support to municipalities. Seven, the proposed municipal incentives should be well designed to avoid unintended consequences. Lastly, the commission should conduct further research into economic linkages between urban and rural areas to ascertain the extent to which they are exploitative or mutually beneficial.
We therefore recommend the approval of the report, Chair. Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Report be adopted.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
DEBATE ON HOUSING: The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS / Nb/Checked by Nobuntu / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 411
FIFTH ORDER: Mr T E CHAANE
FINDING WAYS TO RESPOND TO AND ADDRESS SOUTH AFRICA'S HOUSING BACKLOG
(Debate on Housing)
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon members and members of the Department of Human Settlements, good afternoon. Allow me to first acknowledge and express my appreciation indeed for our common focal point that you have asked us to debate here today. Today, we will restate our commitment to meeting the basic needs of the South African people.
In order to contextualise this framework, we have identified housing – of course, as we have said in the Reconstruction and Development Programme - as part of our basic needs. And whilst we have formally developed a progressive approach from housing to shelter to human settlements - even in the adoptions of the Reconstruction and Development Programme - we indeed recognise the interconnectivity of our challenges and the need, in this instance, to promote integration.
We also recognise that we require a holistic approach to effectively address the effects of apartheid, which inherently require a long-term approach. We acknowledge that we are now also faced with globalisation, and, of course, population growth, urbanisation, rising unemployment and many other factors.
Let us not lose sight of the fact that back then, before 1994, we did not have a reliable or collated statistical data in this instance. With that said, the tone I wish to set for today's debate is a solution-orientated one, not one which, I think, would not be very helpful – by pointing fingers or trying to make excuses. Indeed, this is not a matter for any political point-scoring.
I also wish to stimulate the dialogue necessary for us to understand our situation, and to craft collaboratively a meaningful response. With regard to our response to the backlog: having given you a broad contextual framework, let me brief you on our activities as the Department of Human Settlements – some of our achievements and some of our programmes. I will take you through our grants that we have and touch on the challenges that indeed still remain.
We, of course, work together with municipalities and provinces. Our mandate is to create sustainable human settlements and improve the quality of life of our people. We have done so, and have started in areas such as Cornubia, where we have demonstrably shifted gear from the mere provision of a top structure, to creating sustainable and dignified communities.
We continue with our National Upgrading Support Programme. Here, we addressed the upgrading of informal settlements in areas in Mpumalanga, the Northern Cape and the North West. Together with our upgrading resource kit, an active support programme has been developed to include the technical support that we continue to give to our municipalities, in order to produce municipal upgrading strategies and settlement levels. Another example is the upgrading that we have in ... [Inaudible.] ... Mangweni.
With regards to our funding and our grant funding, some of these grant funding options available - and that we allocate to the provinces and municipalities - are as follows. Of course, there is the municipal infrastructure grant, the Mig grant, as everyone calls it. This relates especially to infrastructure development – we give for that. With regards to the estimated sites to benefit across provinces, they are more than 8 000 sites and more than 36 000 units we have given in what we call the Rhig fund: this is the rural household infrastructure grant.
We do so too with the urban settlements development grant, in terms of which more than R7 billion has been given to allocated identified municipalities. This includes the provision of well-located rental accommodation of more than 37 000 units across the country.
With regard to the human settlements development grant, more than R16 billion has been allocated to the provinces in 2013. Our priority areas in our projects are identified as follows. We do so in Duncan Village in the Eastern Cape, in Diepsloot, Sweetwater, Khutsong, and Lufhereng in Gauteng. I have mentioned KwaZulu-Natal already. There is also Lephalale in Limpopo, Dromedaris in the Western Cape, and many more. We have also made budgetary allocations to the provinces, because many a time they too require emergency funding. Here we have given them R300 million.
We accept that our challenges remain with the aspect of land. Here we have identified and assessed suitable land of more than 7 000 hectares of state land which has been released for gap housing and another 40 000 hectares has been deemed suitable for release. We have also acquired more than 10 000 hectares of private land for human settlements.
We have also gone into many other programmes, because we have to deal with the property markets. There we have been focusing on the property market in order to get the following milestones. We are progressing with the concept of the mortgage default insurance scheme. We do so in terms of the financial link individual subsidy programme, which everyone calls Flisp. It is available to households that fall within what is called the gap market, in the income bracket of R3 501 up to R7 000. Those people obviously do not qualify for subsidised houses and cannot obtain mortgage finance, with agreements from the financial institutions and allocations received in the provinces. Our development financial institutions have together granted more than 200 000 loans to very many people in this country.
But in order to make sure that many of these things happen, we have made sure that we do so within the establishment of a project management unit, and with regards to recognising some of our previous challenges, we established this unit that can be staffed and that can take care of the funding so that we can execute our programmes to give effective implementation. Here we have continued to make sure that we roll out our rectification programme. The budget that has gone into that is about R600 million to rectify some of the houses where there have been defects in much of the housing stock that we have in this country. This is because we have agreed as a country that our Constitution says that our people have to live in dignity. We are actually aware of the need to collate, maintain, interpret and make sure that we have reliable data in this area.
I now come to relevant provinces and our challenges. I want to stress this, especially in the NCOP because you will identify with it: we need to continue collaborative provincial and local government support and active participation and feedback to make inroads into the housing backlog.
Some of the relevant challenges that we have identified and wish to highlight are with regards to the National Upgrade Support Programme. There is a need to formalise provincial commitments and to ensure that the provincial and local governments are equipped and able to respond at an appropriate and fast enough pace. Within the human settlements development grant, large amounts have been transferred to the provinces. We request that the provinces be best placed to spend their allocations appropriately. You probably have seen this in the NCOP many a time.
We are aware that some provinces are listing delays in their procurement processes. But we encourage dialogue with the relevant treasuries to design processes that enable service delivery within a compliant environment. I have said that, indeed, our challenge remains within the availability of land. The dissemination of information and the regular consultative opportunities and encouragement we would want to go into are that of a consumer education programme.
Whilst we are talking about housing and the housing backlog, the aspect of sanitation is extremely important within this debate. You cannot separate sanitation from housing. Here, of course, we have extreme and very many challenges in this area that require collective efforts to make sure that we live up to providing dignity to our people, as we have promised, by rolling out sanitation.
We have, until now, in the little time that that I have been in the department, been able to put together a programme with the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. This programme will take us the next few months to address - from the Western Cape to all the other provinces that seem to be having lots of difficulties in this area.
With regards to how we would want to focus into the future and beyond 2013 and 2014, having given you this broad overview, we must bear in mind that it is imperative that our starting point to addressing backlogs is a genuine partnership of the people - a partnership between the National Assembly, the NCOP and, of course, local government. We need to accept the responsibility for achieving our common goals, for the legacy we have inherited and for redressing our past imbalances.
As we move forward, we want to make sure that we address the question of spatial planning and better target resource allocation, and that we ensure that poor households have adequate housing in better living environments. We want to continue to support the development of a functional and equitable residential property market, and improve institutional capacity and co-ordination. We will do so in the following focal points: the provision of adequate houses and improved quality-of-living environments. We intend to increase the type of tenure being used to promote diversification to cater for various socioeconomic and cultural needs. This is because we have to transform and diversify the face of apartheid. We shall also continue to fast-track the release of land suitable for the establishment and growth of human settlements in a dignified and extremely developmental manner.
In relation to infrastructure, we also aim is to ensure that access to basic infrastructure and services is included in new developments, together with some of our other departments. We will also make sure that we develop a strategy to ensure that integrated developments that support economic hubs happen within historically black townships; and that household and livelihoods with an appropriate densification can occur.
We will also ensure that we continue with the development of standards, such as with the National Home Builders Registration Council, to make sure that we produce quality houses for our people.
Regarding a single and functional residential property market, we would want to devise strategies to increase the supply of housing stock. We will continue to develop a diversified range of financing projects, which remains our challenge. We also would want to intensify consumer education and develop appropriate curricula at school level for this purpose.
One of the matters that really requires a lot of attention is the issue of the title deeds of our people. We will look into issuing title deeds upon occupation, as well as addressing the backlogs in townships on registration.
We have been able to give houses to many of our people, but many can't actually claim that their house indeed belongs to them, due to the aspect of title deeds. We will continue to support and transfer houses to the people. We would also want this matter to be addressed in those provinces that have not yet done so.
This is an agreement that we put together in 1994, between Presidents Mandela and De Klerk. We agreed that we should support and continue to transfer houses to those who had been historically denied these rights and opportunities, especially females and long-term residents – people who have been staying in those houses for many years. We would want this to happen. Some of the provinces have not yet adhered to this.
We also would want to give some more attention to stakeholder participation, including community-based organisations, civil society, nongovernmental organisations and intergovernmental consultative mechanisms. We have responded to Census 2011 with regards to the reduction of households living in inadequate housing. Some of these plans are devised around what we have seen in Census 2011.
In conclusion, from a funding perspective, our departmental budget and the budgets of entities falling under the department reflect the prioritisation of human settlement matters. I reiterate the fact that addressing the housing backlog requires a consolidated effort from all tiers of government. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Mr H B GROENEWALD / LMM/.../TM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 412
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members of the NCOP, the DA wants to congratulate you, hon Minister, on your new position. We really hope that in the future something will happen in Human Settlements. South Africa cannot afford to have millions of people still staying in shacks without infrastructure, such as water, sanitation, electricity and roads.
Twenty years after the event of South Africa's democracy and the publishing of its White Paper on Housing in 1994, dramatic changes occurred in the housing landscape. With the focus on delivering subsidised housing to qualifying beneficiaries, the state added more than 2 million housing units to the formal housing sector in the country. For a range of reasons, delivery has now stalled. Access to housing and the interplay between demand and supply have been given significant attention by policy-makers.
If we look at the demands, there is a long housing waiting list in terms of informal settlements and overcrowded inner-city flats. When it comes to the supply aspect, there is the delivery of RDP houses, social housing, rentals and bonded housing.
The department must promote and achieve a nonracial, integrated society, and reconciliation and diversity through the development of sustainable human settlements and quality housing. With that vision, the department is committed to meeting the following specific objectives: accelerating the delivery of housing for poverty alleviation; utilising the provision of housing as a major job-creation strategy; ensuring property can be accessed by all, as an asset for wealth creation and empowerment; and combating crime, promoting social cohesion and promoting quality of life for the poor.
In 1994, the challenges faced by the department were many. With an estimated 86% of households earning less than R3,500 per month, housing affordability was seriously constrained and in obvious need of subsidy support. The National Housing Finance Corporation, the NHFC, was established with government funding to provide support; and the Rural Housing Loan Fund, the RHLF, was established with a donation from the German Development Bank.
Factors that have undermined the supply of housing and increased the backlog are the following: property price appreciation, building material price escalation, limited construction capacity, a lack of skills, and insufficient capacity at municipal level.
The greatest backlog was experienced in Gauteng and in the Western Cape. Clearly, the demand for housing is expressed both within the subsidised and the starter or the affordable housing market: 50% of South African households own their dwellings; 35% of South African households rent their housing; and 12% to 15% of South African households squat in informal housing conditions.
It is unacceptable that the department is unable to effectively monitor and evaluate the spending patterns by provinces and accredited municipalities. This had led to billions of rand being underspent on grants such as: R4 billion on the urban settlements development grant; R886 million on the human settlements grant, which has been returned to National Treasury; and underspending on the rural housing infrastructure grant.
The department must be serious about delivering houses to the poor in South Africa. The time has come to look into alternative housing delivery such as: private-sector participation; public-sector delivery of proclamations of informal settlements with bulk service connections; and something the Minister has also mentioned: ownership with regard to title deeds. There are also alternative housing options such as shipping containers and concrete homes. In addition, an ownership culture project should be developed to maintain the property with pride with programmes such as the Expanded Public Works Programme, the EPWP, street-paving projects; home maintenance programmes; domestic food security programmes; and environmental recycling programmes to keep the community clean, green and healthy.
Government must accept responsibility for the performance and delivery of the entire housing backlog, together with the bulk services provisions, and expedite and streamline housing development functions also in higher-income developments. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs M P THEMBA / Kn/src(ch) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 413
Mr H B GROENEWALD
Mrs M P THEMBA: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members and special delegates, allow me to congratulate the Minister on her new deployment, and as the Select Committee on Public Services we welcome you and we will work with you, Minister. Let me also congratulate the hon De Villiers by welcoming him to the ANC. He is wearing the ANC scarf. [Laughter.]
The housing problems created by apartheid spatial planning were many and varied. They included, and still include, the racial fragmentation of our cities and the high correlation between housing, poverty and race.
Much of the housing available to the poor is located in townships and informal settlements, far from places of work and poorly provided with community facilities: shops and recreational facilities. The ANC believes that all citizens of South Africa have a right to essential services and to decent housing, appropriate to family and individual needs.
Therefore, the ANC's housing policy is more than just the delivery of a product. It is a process which contributes to the cultural, economic and social development of the entire society and is, therefore, about improving people's total living conditions.
Given the pervasive poverty and the unequal distribution of wealth and land, the ANC's housing policy is designed to promote nonracialism, nonsexism and to cater for disadvantaged groups, such as the very poor, old and disabled. The democratic state has undertaken, and will undertake as and when required, appropriate legislative and executive action to ensure that these basic needs are met in a progressive manner. A scripture reading befitting this action would be 2 Kings, Chapter 8, Verse 6: "So the king appointed an official for her, saying, 'Restore all that was hers, together with all the produce of the fields from the day that she left the land until now.'"
As part of its founding provisions, the Constitution of South Africa draws attention to the value of human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms. The mainstay of the ANC's policy is to address these values through its legislation, policies and programmes. The provision of decent housing for all South Africans is therefore recognised as one of the most ambitious of projects in the transformational agenda of the ANC.
The human settlements development philosophy was first adopted in 1976 at the United Nations global habitat summit in Canada. In 2002, the World Summit on Sustainable Development was held in Johannesburg. The Johannesburg Plan of Implementation responded with targets and timeframes that the ANC spoke to through its 52nd conference in Polokwane in 2007. The Polokwane resolutions committed the ANC government to promoting human settlements that would build cohesive, sustainable and caring communities.
A comprehensive plan for sustainable human settlements was approved in 2005, and a revised housing code was published in 2009 to mark the shift from shelter to human settlement.
This transition to a human settlement framework has formed a major step in responding to the growing need to reprioritise the national budget towards greater investment in social infrastructure. The policy shift by the ANC to sustainable human settlements indicates a move towards an understanding that integrated services will address basic needs more holistically than the provision of individual housing. The human settlement approach is also in line with the ANC's plans to create an integrated and socially cohesive nation and to transform the apartheid spatial framework of cities and towns.
The adoption of the comprehensive plan for the development of sustainable human settlements in 2005 marked a conceptual shift away from the mandate of providing a house on poorly located land far from economic activity and social services, to the provision of amenities to support the creation of functional communities, through access to transport, social services and employment opportunities.
The housing-to-human settlement principles of development are outlined by a policy that is responsive to housing demands and the needs of poor households, and that provides tenure options in an affordable and fiscally sustainable manner. Through integrated planning and good governance, the human settlement approach advocates optimal land utilisation and stimulates private investment in housing and community development.
In practice, integrated means the development of communities with access to transport, economic opportunities and social amenities. Such thinking is also in line with the recognition that poverty, inequality, and unemployment are deeply intertwined with infrastructure. Furthermore, this paradigm shift from housing to human settlement resulted in strategic reallocations in the budget that affect expenditure patterns.
At a 2011 human settlements youth summit held in Durban, the then Minister of Human Settlements indicated that 3 million housing units had been given to mainly poor South Africans since 1994 - I hope you are listening, hon Groenewald - but that South Africa still had a backlog of more than 2,1 million housing units, which translates into approximately 12,5 million people.
The Human Settlements Vision 2030 is aimed at creating integrated community settlements, encompassing facilities and amenities like schools and hospitals, as proper human settlements are ones which have places of worship, sports facilities and, most importantly, commercial and industrial areas within a reasonable distance from residential areas.
Looking at the way ahead, two broad themes of performance will be encompassed in the medium-term housing budgets, namely streamlining of systems and the strengthening of policy. This is in response to imbalances between departmental targets and policy ambitions, which have negatively affected some aspects of service delivery.
In its endeavour to deliver housing policy and human settlements to South Africans, the ANC government has resolved to put measures in place to bolster service delivery.
There has to be serious thought and action to address the challenge of flooded areas, where poor people live, and communities should be developed in higher-ground areas, for example in the Cape Peninsula, in order to get these flooded spaces to higher ground - above sea level. This has to include basic service needs and transport facilities. Hon Minister, future spatial planning is crucial. Hon Chairperson, I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N MEKGWE (Gauteng) / TH / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 414
Ms M P THEMBA
Ms N MEKGWE (Gauteng): Hon Chair, hon Minister, it does look like I was the first person to meet you, Minister, before you were met by members of the House, but congratulations once more. Hon members, as Gauteng, we are known as an economic hub, which is a reality - a place of opportunities. As a result, many people come to Gauteng for better economic opportunities. But while they are there, they also demand better houses. The more we build, the more people demand shelter.
Therefore, as the Gauteng province we are really hitting a moving target. The province has seen an increase in the population to 12 million since the count of 2011. Hence, the hon member spoke about the backlog.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): [Inaudible.] Would you kindly move back to your seat?
Mr H B GROENEWALD: I will do so, Chair.
Ms N MEKGWE (Gauteng): Hence, the hon member indicated that there was a backlog in Gauteng.
Yes, we know that, and in terms of the statistics our population has since risen to 12 million. We are also aware that there are many other people who might not have been counted, because on the day when the census team came, they were either not at their house or might not have been comfortable with providing their information.
Whatever the case may be, the demand for better housing still increases. This places a demand on us to build more, and also to build more for people who have different housing needs. Hence, we believe that in Gauteng there is not going to be a one-size-fits-all approach. We need to ensure that we give away houses for those that can't afford them, but also that there should be social housing for those who need it.
We are also involved in the rectification of defective houses; in rental stock, as an option for those that travel between different provinces and between different countries; in bonded housing; we are also considering the issue of actually giving serviced sites to our people so that as and when we have enough resources we are able to upgrade; and for those whose situations may change: for them to be able to build their own houses.
We are considering the issue of the gap market, and considering the eradication of some of the hostels including the upgrading of the hostels, because we know that many people come to Gauteng for better opportunities. They might not have had houses during the apartheid era. Hence, they are still housed in those not-so-good settlements.
As we do that, we also need to ensure that we consider mixed-housing developments so that we don't have a stand-alone approach or one model in a particular area, when we can actually utilise the land for all types of models.
We are also home to three metros. All of them have been granted Level 1 and Level 2 accreditation status. We are also considering a request that came to us from one of the districts that wants to be accredited as well.
Unfortunately, we don't have enough government land for us to build for everyone. At the same time, as the living, we are also competing with the dead for space that is not available. Land is expensive for government, because as and when we approach the private sector to buy land that we need to build houses, the costs rise very sharply. At times we find that because of the mining experience or history that we have, the land is not suitable to build houses.
We are therefore forced to build high-rise structures and, at times, people argue that those structures are not in line with their culture. Culture could perhaps be debated because it is not static.
We also know that some of these mixed-housing developments will be able to create economic opportunities for our people and will also ensure that we use the land effectively. We also need to ensure that we give the land that is serviced to our people so that as and when their situation changes, people are able to build for themselves.
We are also considering building integrated communities, as seen recently with the recent handover of housing to our people, as part of the Danville housing project and in Mogale, by the President and where the new Minister was inducted into her new position.
Regarding those that are demanding houses, some of them do not qualify because they happen not to be South African. While others are South African, they might have benefited from other housing projects elsewhere in South Africa.
What is key in everything we do is effective intergovernmental relations, which will be a cornerstone for better service delivery and better human settlements. Interdepartmental collaboration is also important, especially in building sustainable human settlements. All the departments of government must actually give money and not only the Department of Human Settlements.
What we also consider doing now as an immediate programme is to ensure that we finish all existing projects that we are busy with. We want to close them, because each and every project will be mentioned on a number of occasions when we know that we are actually moving towards the closure of that particular project.
We also want to start planning for the future now so that we don't have to plan later. We should actually think ahead to say, in a particular era, this is what we are going to do. As we do that, proper consultation with our people and communication should also be effected, working with our municipalities.
We must also try to identify and secure land now, so that we can build in the future. It will be cheaper and it will give confidence to our communities to say that the government really is a caring government.
We also need to address the challenges of long procurement processes that exist within departments, especially in Gauteng. We must stick to the 30-day payment of suppliers to ensure the nondisruption of already existing projects.
We also want to ensure that we clean our demand database because there is a notion that more and more people need houses, when we all know that some people's situation's have changed even though they are still on the database. Therefore as and when we clean the database of registered beneficiaries whose status has changed, we reduce of those that still expect to be assisted by government. In so doing, I am sure we will all ensure that our people get their dignity back. Thank you very much, hon Chair. [Applause.]
Mr Z MLENZANA / Src/END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 415
Ms N MEKGWE (Gauteng)
Mr Z MLENZANA: Hon Deputy Chairperson, let me start by thanking the NCOP, particularly the Chief Whip, the hon Ntwanambi, for the support that you, as this House, gave to me and my family during the time of the passing away of my mother. Thank you very much. The hon Magadla represented this House very well. Perhaps, before my time lapses, let me start with my last paragraph. Hon Minister, we wish you well in your new role of leadership.
Housing is a key component to human settlements. Human Settlements is in a seesaw situation. The percentage of households living in formal dwellings, whose dwellings are fully owned, increased from 53% in 2002, to 58% in 2007. In 2009, it decreased again to 56%, according to Statistics SA.
Until 1997, housing delivery occurred via the private sector, but dissatisfaction with housing quality and housing location resulted in the Housing Act, Act 107 of 1997, which provides for local authorities to assume responsibility for driving housing delivery. This was followed by the slow pace of housing delivery and subsequently the increase of backlogs countrywide.
The lack of capacity at both local and provincial levels has prompted the department to introduce a rectification programme. A total of 17 425 Reconstruction and Development Programme houses, to be exact, need to be rectified, in other words - correcting the shoddy work done previously by companies that won the tenders. According to Statistics SA, 15% of residents are having problems with the quality of RDP houses. The walls are very weak, and 16% of the residents regard the roofs as very weak. Also, a lack of capacity also leads to the reallocation of housing projects.
Another factor compounding housing delivery is corruption, which has been crippling the National Home Builders Registration Council. Hence, it is now dysfunctional and has lost its integrity. This House is too quiet; let me shake it up.
The government is not committed to housing delivery. [Interjections.] It pays lip service. If this government was serious and committed enough, it needs both the local and provincial levels on board. For instance, at a local level, government needs to assist those local authorities with both human and financial resources so that they are able to increase their capacity and fulfil their role strategically in order to be able to implement housing delivery.
Pursuing outside professional assistance also assists the provinces so that they have their own capacity in order to adequately assist local authorities.
In conclusion, we should refrain from directing where housing delivery should occur and what type of housing delivery should be carried out by a municipality, which housing is not based on a proper analysis, for example: a provincial survey, an area's growth rate, the Provincial Spatial Development Framework, integrated development plans, etc. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr A FIGLAN (Western Cape)/ Nb/Checked by Nobuntu / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 416
Mr Z MLENZANA
Mr A FIGLAN (Western Cape): Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Let me also congratulate the Minister on her new position. Something has to change in how the government provides housing solutions in South Africa. The current approach of providing predominantly free houses is unsustainable and is not working as we had hoped.
While the housing delivery programme started with noble ideals of empowerment, dignity and land transfers under the Reconstruction and Development Programme, the national backlog of 1,5 million houses in 1994 ... [Interjections.] ... to the mic. Okay. Thank you. I am a little bit feverish, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Sorry.
Mr A FIGLAN (Western Cape): I am little bit feverish.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Feverish?
Mr A FIGLAN (Western Cape): Yes!
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Oh, okay. I am sorry about that.
Mr A FIGLAN (Western Cape): One and a half million houses in 1994 grew to 2,1 million in 2010, and is still growing. According to Census 2011, of the 14,45 million households in South Africa, 0,7 million are backyarders, and 1,25 million are informal settlements, and 1,14 million live in traditional structures.
Besides not reducing the backlog, the current model of housing delivery has had several negative consequences. The quest for numbers has resulted in many houses of poor quality, and estimates, according to the National Home Builders Registration Council, are that of the 3,05 million houses since 1994, 2,64 million are at risk and in need of rectification, at an estimated cost of R59 billion, according to former national Housing Minister Tokyo Sexwale.
The selling and renting of houses have resulted in the formation of an informal secondary market, which deprives new buyers of official ownership rights, reduces market values and prevents wealth creation. We have created a culture of entitlement, where people expect the state to provide everything, and we have 15,6 million people on welfare grants and around 3,5 million taxpayers.
We have created settlements that have become poverty traps that drain municipal finances, instead of adding to the finances through the payment of rates and services. By focusing mainly on the very poor, we have bypassed the gap market, in which people earning between R3 500 and R15 000 find it very difficult to afford to buy properties, or get bank credit for home loans.
This situation cannot continue, and as government we are faced with the choice of doing the right thing, or the popular thing. As politicians, we often do the popular thing for short-term gain, rather than the right thing, which would have long-term positive benefits.
So, what would some of the right things be in order to reduce the housing backlog?
First, we would need to service the gap market - 41,9% of our taxpayers earn below R10 000 a month, as mentioned above, find access home loans difficult, either due to their lack of disposable income or poor credit records.
As government we could provide a combination of housing subsidies and interest-free loans to these and unbondable people relative to their level of income, which they could repay over a period of 10 years. This would enable them to own their own homes, whereas currently, anyone earning over R3 500 per month has to finance their home through a bank loan and depending on their income subsidy.
As people pay back their government home loans, then the money could be used to build other houses, and the financial contribution of government to housing would not be an empty drain, as it is now.
With beneficiaries contributing and loan schemes, we can build many more homes for the same amount of money as we are currently building. People could contribute a fixed percentage of their income, for example 5%, which means that someone earning R10 000 a month would pay R500 a month for their house, and someone earning R4 000 would pay R200 a month. If 2 000 households earning R10 000 a month and contributed R500 a month, there would be R1 million coming back into the pool every month, whereas now nothing comes back.
Deputy Chair, we could change the criteria as to who benefits. For example, people earning up to R10 000 a month could qualify for a government house. Only those above the age of 30 could apply. This would prevent the situation we often have in which 20-year-olds get houses, while 60-year-olds are waiting.
We could say that no more free houses will be built in informal settlements. People can be given land ownership, security of tenure and access to basic services, yet it will be up to them to develop their site as their financial situation improves.
We could change how we allocate houses to the elderly and the disabled. For example, we could institutionalise how the elderly access houses, and they may be able to have lifetime use of a house, yet when they pass on, the state then allocates the opportunity to another elderly person, instead of that house becoming an asset in the family of the beneficiary.
We can focus more on social housing solutions. For example, the R55-million Bothasig housing project in Milnerton has 120 opportunities for people earning between R2 200 and R7 500 per month. The beneficiaries pay rental according to their income and due to the funding model that integrates private and government funds. They receive quality homes much nicer than the standard BNG – breaking new ground - opportunities. Social housing not only provides opportunities, but also ensures that people contribute towards paying for the rates and services, and are thus not a drain, but an asset to the municipality. If we channel more resources into social houses, we will be creating more sustainable settlements.
Deputy Chair, while we recognise that certain groups of special-needs beneficiaries, such as the elderly, have a real need for free housing, we have to provide houses solutions that gradually shift the mind-set of people from one of dependency and entitlement, to one of contribution.
We need to have a long-term view of sustainability, which depends on the people's ability to contribute. Yes, we need jobs and economic opportunities, yet when a person earning R3 500 per month starts paying R100 a month for their house, then they are contributing something, and this we need to encourage because contribution implies empowerment.
In terms of the solution to the housing backlog, it is not necessary to throw more money at the problem, but to do things differently, and make home-owning a real possibility for all South Africans, not just those earning below R3 500 a month.
This way, we serve the needs of all our people, and start to create cycle sustainability and wealth creation, and not poverty. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms L MABIJA / MALUTA\\\tfm/// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 417
Mr A FIGLAN (Western Cape)
Tshivenda:
Mufumakadzi Vho L MABIJA: Mudzulatshidulo, vhahuluhulu vhothe vha re fhano, Mukhantselara Vho Moloi vha bvaho kha Salga, Vho MEC Mekgwe vha bvaho Gauteng, na muthomphei mushavhisei mutatisei Minister Vho September, mirado ya ino Nndu, vhaofisiri vhothe vha re nga thungo luya ...
English:
... and, in absentia, the public up there in the gallery: good afternoon. [Laughter.] Hon Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to participate in this important debate. I would also like to indicate that Chapter 2, section 26 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa states that everyone has a right to have access to adequate housing.
The ANC, at the 53rd national conference, resolved that we must accelerate the implementation of the decision to release state-owned land including municipal land to allow for the development of human settlement. This will facilitate the deracialisation and socioeconomic integration of communities through the housing agency. These are all decisions that are influenced by the desire to redress the intentional imbalances that were created by the apartheid state.
The housing needs in our country differ among races because of apartheid planning. The housing need is mostly concentrated within the black majority. One of the major challenges for housing delivery and urban integration in South Africa is access to well-developed land and affordable housing for low-income households. The poor still generally lack access to affordable, well-located land within cities, which hampers the potential for integrated housing and inclusive development.
The vast majority of the poor are located on the urban periphery, distant from city centres and, in many instances, divorced from economic opportunities and amenities. The main spatial challenges in South Africa centre on the continued spatial exclusion of the poor from the main socioeconomic fabric of cities and regions.
The establishment of Bantustans as a measure to get cheap labour and the establishment of male-only hostels in cities assisted in the current backlog of housing we are experiencing. The majority of the people who need housing are very poor, and this is coupled with the fact that the rate of natural increases is the highest among the poorer communities. This means that the poor will constitute an ever-increasing proportion of the total population.
The housing problem is mainly concentrated in the metropolitan areas though it differs in character from city to city depending on the history of settlement in that area. Other regions have predominantly freestanding informal settlements and better living conditions.
The growth of the housing backlog in the cities is also influenced by the migration from rural areas in search of jobs and better living conditions. The rate of national growth of the population also has a big effect on the growth of the housing need in the metropolitan areas. There is no doubt that the housing problem in South Africa is complex in origin and difficult to solve. But I can assure you, together with the activist ANC-led government, we will never take no for an answer to this challenge. The ANC has observed some elements who allege that the ANC-led government is failing the masses of South Africa. But the fact of the matter is that empty vessels make the most noise.
The comprehensive plan for sustainable human settlement, otherwise known as breaking new ground, prioritises the upgrading of informal settlements and integrated planning for sustainable human settlements. The breaking new ground initiative collapses the income bands used to indentify who should receive state housing support and proposes the increased use of a people's housing process as a mechanism for increased and improved housing delivery. It also provides a policy direction towards a holistic approach to the provision of housing in the context of sustainable human settlements with a strong spatial or locational component.
Again, the most significant concepts contained herein regarding the establishment of sustainable human settlements are demand, responsive, differentiated housing delivery, a holistic view of housing markets, social and economic infrastructure, and spatial restructuring. This represents a paradigm shift, which seeks to define sustainable human settlements as a creation of conditions under which people in both new and established residential communities can enjoy healthy, productive and well-integrated urban lives. A settlement must be able to ensure that people can live in safe, healthy and dignified conditions with relatively easy access to urban amenities, the ability to exercise their need for community and opportunities to realise their future aspirations. That is the ANC-led government in action. [Applause.]
The past decade has seen good but questionable success of the South African financial institutions in the delivery of housing. The Department of Human Settlements was tasked with the responsibility of providing and overseeing the construction of these houses. The Department of Human Settlements brought in several strategies to achieve its goals of housing delivery, namely stabilising the housing environment; mobilising credit; providing subsidy assistance; supporting the people's housing process; rationalising institutional capacity; facilitating speedy release and servicing land; and, lastly, co-ordinating state investment in development.
The government has made good progress in eradicating backlogs. According to my perception, I don't think this term's backlog is a bad thing, because the ANC government has targets of building houses. As we move towards meeting the target, the need mushrooms owing to the natural increase of the population because our reproductive system is very valid. God has said, bear children as many as the grains of sand on the seashore. [Applause.]
The government has approved more than three million housing subsidies benefiting over 10 million poor people and has cumulatively spent over R40 billion on housing developments since the inception of the housing programme. This has contributed to the construction of houses and the preparation of sites totalling R2,4 million.
Tshivenda:
Khezwo! Vha khou toda mini?
English:
The ANC is the one and the only one that advocates for the South African masses.
Since 1994, the ANC-led South African government has formulated a number of housing programmes to facilitate the housing supply, some of which are the Reconstruction and Development Programme, the bulk and connector infrastructure grant, the Special Integrated Presidential Project, the Human Settlement Redevelopment Programme, the Overseas Private Investment Corporation and the new comprehensive plan on sustainable human settlement.
I am proud to announce that one of the greatest successes of the democratic South Africa is the delivery of housing. But there are still elements that do not want to accept that the ANC-led government is delivering. They are still stuck in the skewed mentality that a black person cannot lead this beautiful and rich country. That causes chagrin; it's a shame. Masha! [Applause.]
Cllr B MOLOI (Salga) /Arnold (Eng) .../TM (Tshivenda) / GC (Eng)/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 418
Ms L MABIJA
Cllr B MOLOI (Salga): It is very far to reach this point. Hon Deputy Chairperson ...
Ke rata go tsaya tšhono e go dumedisa ... [I would like to take this opportunity to greet ...]
English:
... our newly appointed Minister of Human Settlements, hon members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, I think I must also get into the queue by firstly congratulating, on behalf of the Chairperson of Salga, Mr Thabo Manyoni, on behalf of the local government fraternity, and on my own behalf, I congratulate you, Madam Minister, on your appointment. I think it is befitting because this is Women's Month. Malibongwe to that!
I must say that the task before us - to ensure adequate housing for all - is clearly a massive one. It is now estimated that the housing backlog sits at 2,1 million houses for 8 to 10 million people across South Africa. But it is also clear to us that a tremendous amount of work has been done already to tackle this backlog. Since 1994, we are told, government has managed – and we know for sure - to provide approximately three million housing units, and this is an accomplishment unparalleled in the world.
The difficulty, of course, is that the so-called backlog is a moving target. Hon MEC Mekgwe also spoke about it. You cannot touch it; it moves with the trends. We are no longer just dealing with the housing needs predating 1994. We must also confront and plan for the local impact of the worldwide trend towards urbanisation, which brings poor households into our cities on a daily basis in search of jobs and income.
The new data from Census 2011 demonstrates how our cities have undergone rapid urbanisation in the last decade, which contributes to increased demand for affordable housing and economic opportunities in urban areas. When the supply of adequate housing proves insufficient, informal settlements grow in size, and the number of backyard dwellings mushroom. In fact, backyards are now absorbing more households than informal settlements themselves. Between 2007 and 2011, 288 000 households were absorbed into backyard dwellings, which is twice as many as the number of households who found shelter in informal settlements during that time.
Over the years, in the process of chasing numbers to make a dent in the housing backlog, we have inadvertently done damage to the shape and nature of our cities. The old spatial patterns that keep wealthy areas separate from low-income neighbourhoods and make it expensive and difficult for poor residents to access the economic opportunities that the city provides have been reinforced in urban areas. We continue to struggle to curb urban sprawl and make significant reversals in this spatial fragmentation.
Furthermore, cities have been unable to ensure that the capacity and maintenance of the bulk infrastructure network keeps pace with this rapid urbanisation. As a result, housing provision is stalled behind bulk infrastructure provision. Thus, it is apparent that in our efforts to find ways to address the housing backlog in our country, we must think holistically about the impact that our public investment and government programmes have on the shape our cities take.
To address these challenges presented by urbanisation, we need to put better urban management plans and systems in place so that there is serviced land to accommodate growing demand. Newcomers must be accommodated in higher density structures if we are going to defeat urban sprawl and create smarter, more compact cities. The impact of our massive public investment by three spheres in urban areas has also been undermined by poor co-ordination. But with coherence, spatial planning and integrated investment planning in housing, infrastructure and public transport, we can make the net impact of our government spending greater than the sum of its parts.
All these ideas are captured and emphasised in the National Development Plan, the NDP. One of the key messages in the NDP is that we must proactively plan and implement programmes to counter our negative spatial pattern of inequality. This will not only ensure economic opportunities are available to more poor households and make our cities more inclusive, but it will also make those cities more economically efficient in terms of promoting growth.
Although the delivery of housing was identified as a concurrent national and provincial competence in our Constitution, we know that municipalities play a critical role in the human settlements sector, both as implementing agents and developers for subsidised housing projects, and in the delivery of the bulk infrastructure, which underpins those human settlements.
In the near future, municipalities are set to play an even larger role in finding ways to crack the housing backlog. With the assignment of the administration of national housing programmes to six metros by 2014, a major function related to the built environment will definitely shift to the local level. Full assignment means that funding for national housing subsidy programmes will flow directly to assigned municipalities. Altogether, over R12 billion in the urban settlements development grant, USDG, and the human settlements development grant, HSDG, funds will be transferred to these six metros in 2013-14 upon assignment.
Accreditation and assignment are critical processes for helping us to combat the backlog and achieve integrated human settlements. Municipal functions that are ancillary to housing, such as water, electricity and sanitation, cannot be planned for in isolation. Therefore, intersectoral co-ordination is particularly important to the performance of the human settlements sector. For these reasons, we, as Salga, believe that the devolution of the housing function is not only critical to improving performance in the human settlements sector, but will also contribute to better the overall management by government of urbanisation and the built environment.
However, the success of assignment depends upon a strong fiscal framework and the targeted provision of support and capacity by provinces and the national department to these municipalities. According to the principle of funds follow function, better co-ordination of the conditional grants for public transport, infrastructure, human settlements and urban development must complement the assignment of built environment functions to local government. To this end, Salga supports the review of infrastructure grant money arrangements in 2014 to make things simpler, more efficient and more effective.
Already the metros have succeeded in improving performance on the urban settlement development grant, together spending 90% of the allocated amount in 2011-12, the year the grant was introduced. Buffalo City and Nelson Mandela Bay reported to the Portfolio Committee on Human Settlements last week that their 2012-13 USDG expenditure was expected to be 70% and 100% respectively. In upcoming years, Salga supports the extension of the USDG to secondary cities which, in many instances, are well equipped to take on this responsibility. As assignment and the USDG are rolled out in successive years, more municipalities – we believe – can benefit from the convergence of the control and spending of the USDG and the HSDG at local level.
Other areas for innovation are interventions to upgrade backyard dwellings, provide adequate services to backyard dwellers, and encourage the development of secondary units in new housing developments. Backyard dwellings are one of the largest housing subsectors in South Africa and make a significant contribution to the provision of rental housing to households whose needs are not addressed by government subsidy programmes.
Largely, without any government intervention or support, the sector successfully provides accommodation to nonqualifiers, migrants or temporary workers not seeking homeownership, and any other household wishing to rent but that cannot afford formal rental accommodation.
Hon members, as I mentioned earlier, backyard dwellings are also one of the fast-growing sectors. Therefore, it is imperative that municipalities address the needs of backyarders as part of their urban management and human settlement strategies. To this end, Salga is currently developing a local government position on municipal responses to backyarders. The proposal looks at what municipalities can do in response to backyarders and backyard dwellings, and offers a menu of programmes, policy interventions and tools available to local government.
In conclusion, let me reiterate Salga's support for movement in this sector towards greater responsibility for local government. Not only will these advances strengthen the developmental role of local government, but they will also strengthen the built environment sector, which in turn will ensure that, ultimately, we do more than reduce the housing backlog. Instead, we aim to build sustainable human settlements where people have a decent chance to build communities and live safe and productive lives.
Ke a leboga. [Thank you very much.] [Applause.]
Mr M P SIBANDE / KC/LMM//(Setsw)/A N N-Eng(ed)/END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 419
Cllr B MOLOI (Salga)
Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, this debate takes place in a month when women are being celebrated and at a time when South African women are being recognised in top leadership positions.
IsiZulu:
NguKhongolose owenza lokhu. Abanye angazi ukuthi benzani.
English:
I am speaking about the appointment of the former Deputy President of South Africa, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, who will lead the women's branch at the United Nations. More importantly, here at home, the national Department of Human Settlements is led by a woman, Minister Connie September. [Applause.]
Minister September joins us at a crucial time as we reflect on both the achievements of the ANC government and its shortfalls in housing delivery. The housing challenge has its roots in colonial expansion and the dispossession of black people's land followed by gross political, economic and social segregation.
IsiZulu:
Umhlonishwa u-Groenewald uthe inselela yezindlu iqale ngowe-1994, kanti kudala yaba khona.
English:
The centenary of the 1913 Land Act serves to remind us that the task of social and economic transformation is the fundamental challenge we must all rise to. Over the years, the ANC government has been at the forefront of providing shelter that fosters social cohesion by giving people a sense of value and worth. In fact, the right to shelter in South Africa is one of the cornerstones of the liberation struggle. The Freedom Charter, which guides every move of the ANC, has been instrumental in centralising government's focus on extremely poor people who live in informal settlements.
IsiZulu:
Inkulumo-mpikiswano yanamuhla ifike ngesikhathi esifanele lapho njengamaqembu akule Ndlu yesiShayamthetho kufanele ukuthi sidingide lolu daba siphinde singakhohlwa lapho siqhamuka khona. Kumele senze lokhu ngoba uma ufuna ukwelapha isilonda kufanele wazi ukuthi umnyombo waso yini.
Ngakho-ke ingqikithi yalolu daba lwezindlu esikhuluma ngalo namuhla yaqala mandulo lapho izifikanamthwalo bezidla ngoludala. Kwaze kwaba yisikhathi lapho uKhongolose ethi sekwanele manje. [Uhleko.] Ngqongqoshe, kufanele ukuthi inhlangano kaKhongolose ime qingqo ukulwisana nale nkinga yokuswelakala kwezindlu emiphakathini yethu. Kwazise phela ukuthi izinhlangano zawogombela kwesabo ziyaqhubeka ngemfundiso yeze. Ziyaqhubeka futhi ngokuthembisa isizwe esimpisholo ikakhulukazi, utalagu noma umnyama ongenafu, zibuye zenze abantu bakholwe ukuthi lolu daba lokuswelakala kwezindlu lubangelwe uhulumeni oholwa nguKhongolose. Kanti qhabo bo!
Lolu daba lokwentuleka kwezindlu kufanele silubheke ngemikhakha eyahlukene, njengamalungu e-SADC kanye ne-AU, njll. Ukuthutheleka kwabantu abavela emazweni angomakhelwane angeke sakugwema, kodwa kumele sibe nemibandela ezokwenza ukuthi abantu bakule ngabadi yaseNingizimu Afrika bahlomule kuqala ekubeni nezindlu.
Ohulumeni basemakhaya kanye namakhosi omthonyama kumele badlale indima kubantu abakha imikhukhu ngokungemthetho, isibonelo: njengasezindaweni eziseduze nasesiqiwini sezilwane i-Kruger National Park. Sikholelwa ukuthi ukubamba kwabo indima kungasilekelela ekugwemeni ukubulawa kobhejane; ukushushumbiswa kwezidakamizwa; kanye nokungeniswa kwezibhamu ezingekho emthethweni. Kunezinkolelo zokuthi leyo mikhukhu iphenduka izizinda zokushushumbiswa kwabantu, ikakhulukazi abesifazane kanye nezingane.
Komasipala nakumakhansela kufanele kube nomthetho ozogwema ukwakhiwa kwemikhukhu eduze nezimayini, ikakhulukazi izimayini ezingasasebenzi. Yikho lokhu okuyimbangela yabantu abamba izimbiwa ngaphandle kwemvume, kuphinde kube khona nomthelela wamaqembuqembu abulalanayo ezimayini ezindala. Okuyinselele ukuthi bonke laba bantu engikhuluma ngabo bagcina sebephonsa inselele kuhulumeni ngokweswelakala kwezindlu kanye nezinsiza.
Kunamahebezi athi amanye amalungu kubaphathi bakamasipala awayilandeli imigudu efanele yokwaba izindlu ngokulandela uhlelo lwabantu ababhalise ngalo; kodwa anikezela ngezindlu kuhle kwamakholwa edla umthendeleko enkonzweni.
Ku-DA, ngithi kuyo, 'mzenzisi, khipha ugongolo olusesweni lwakho ngaphambi kokuthi ukhiphe olusesweni lomfowenu'. Ngikusho ngani lokho? Umnumzane u-Groenewald uthi izinkinga zezindlu zaqala ngowe-1994. Ukhohlwa into eyodwa nje. Udideke kakhulu. Zolo lokho ngoLwesibili, bebesazisa besifundisa ngosizo oluvela eMnyangweni wezokuHlaliswa kwaBantu. Udidekile ngoba izinto eziningi azishoyo zibaluliwe ku-Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, yomsebenzi womphakathi.
Enye into kumnumzane oyisihlalo, ngisho lo obekhuluma, uthe ...
English:
... the current model has a negative affect on settlement.
IsiZulu:
Manje usukile, ubalekile. Uyaphosisa. Umbiko ovela kwezokuHlaliswa kwaBantu esiwuthole la ngoLwesibili, uveza ukuthi i-DA iyahluleka ukuvumelana nokubekiwe mayelana nosizo lwe-Financial Link Individual Subsidy Programme, Flisp, oluvela kuhulumeni. Ukhuluma nangokuthi abantu kumele banikwe izindawo zokwakha. Kodwa okumangazayo ukuthi i-DA iyahluleka ukulungisa indaba yase-District Six.
UBaba u-Groenewald uye wakhuluma ngokuthi abantu kumele banikezwe ama-container. Angazi ukuthi yibaphi abantu abangahlala kuma-container. KuBaba uMlenzana ngizothi nje kancane, ngiyazi ukuthi uphumaphi. Wena uphuma elokishini, uyazi kamhlophe impilo yethu esihlala kuyo. Ungalingisi abanye abafowethu, ngoba khona la eNtshonalanga Kapa uma ungaya Blikkiesdorp, endaweni yase-Delft, i-DA ithathe abantu yabafaka emikhukhwini. I-DA ekuqaleni itshele laba bantu ukuthi bazohlala kuleyo mikhukhu isikhashana kodwa manje kubukeka sengathi sebahlala lapho unomphela. Wena mhlonishwa, sibuya nawe esidwadweni, wazi kamhlophe ukuthi kunjani esidwadweni.
English:
Although housing for the poor has been a top priority for the government, housing delivery has taken place in new ways: gap market housing, housing for middle-income earners, rental housing and integrated housing developments are some of the methods through which the government has been able to accelerate human settlement delivery over the past 19 years.
IsiZulu:
Kodwa omunye ubaba uthe akaboni lutho. Akaboni lutho ngoba bayahluleka ukuvumelana nokubekiwe. Abavumelani neze!
English:
Diverse housing delivery have enabled the department to deal with informal settlements. Informal settlements are a major economic challenge for the government not least because people are forced to live in inhumane conditions, and because these settlement patterns are growing.
We currently have more than 2 700 informal settlements housing millions of people, in terms of which the current housing delivery is projected at a slower rate. This shows how difficult it is to transform the legacy of apartheid spatial patterns. Some know themselves, they served during apartheid. They are the ones who caused this.
Since 2009, the department has been able to deliver more than 750 000 houses and housing opportunities through grants to our poorest beneficiaries. The need for housing is not limited to the extremely poor. Those earning between R3 500 and R15 000 are part of the gap market that cannot afford homes and need financial assistance.
IsiZulu:
Yilapho kungena khona i-Flisp. Yilokhu uNgqongqoshe bekakuqhaza. Ngenza impinda ngabomu ngoba kunabantu abangezwa futhi banamakhanda alukhuni, kanti yibo abangavumelani nokubekiwe.
English:
The department has facilitated policies enabling this category of people to obtain loans, bonds and mortgage facilities and other financial instruments. This is in response to the fact that as people rise out of poverty, their needs and wants change as does their capacity to develop themselves.
As a progressive government, the ANC seeks to create access to resources and to enable society where people are not stuck at one tier of capacity, but can go further in society. Rental housing options have given people the option ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, could you conclude?
Mr M P SIBANDE: ... without buying. This option is for those who are not ready to buy their own houses. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS / JN//LIM CHECKED ZLU// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Wednesday, 21 August 2013 Take: 420
Mr M P SIBANDE
The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. Let me also thank all the members who participated in the debate. Indeed, there were many different responses that have come through, but one that really was the same was that we certainly do have challenges in every province.
Hon Groenewald, with regard to your saying that the department does not have any or sufficient oversight mechanisms - that we need to make sure that in the provinces and the municipalities they do spend - well, we do have. I said earlier in my input that we do have a mechanism to oversee all the municipalities and the provinces.
In fact, through our mechanism, we have seen that there is underspending of the urban settlement development grant, and it is not R4 billion - it is underspending of R500 million. Through our interventions, we have been able to intervene in Buffalo City, in Mangaung, and in the City of Cape Town, which had an underspending of R67 million. We had to deal with them. We dealt with eThekwini, that has spent 100% of its grant. We do have a mechanism to take care of eThekwini, and where we see that it requires assistance, we give it. But where we see that it is just not going to be able to do that, then we think that the money should go to where it can be spent best so that other people can be helped.
To the hon member of Cope: I said earlier that we have an extensive rectification programme, and we have indeed started with it. We are rectifying houses again, and in the Western Cape also. The roof is on one side and the foundation is on the other side, and we are rectifying all those things. So, indeed, we have a programme with regard to that. I think the member has left, but an interesting debate came out here: which was that we ought to move away from giving people free houses because it is not sustainable. It cannot be right to adopt that attitude.
We are all reminded as Members of Parliament that we do have a constitutional obligation, and one of those constitutional obligations is the right of citizens to shelter, to have access to very many different basic services. We dare not shrug off our responsibility and say that we cannot intervene when we see that the needs of our people, especially those of the very poor, are such that intervention is needed. Hence, we think that we would just add to the backlog if we adopted an attitude like that - that we must not take care of the poor and deal with poverty and the economic realities, because they do exist.
But we can't be prescriptive to our people - the idea of saying: "Look, let some be like this, and let some be like that." What we can do as government is what we have done, and that is that we have made available very many different programmes through our grants so that our people with different needs can respond to the different services that we offer.
If we are going to try to box our people into containers and things like that, we don't think it would be correct that we add to the never-ending health problems by going in that direction. Therefore, it is our responsibility to respond to the needs of everyone in this society and, hence, our programme does reflect that.
Where we have dealt with the financial institutions for those people who are unable to get a breaking new ground house, we have done so. Where people do not have money at all, we have done so. We now have the Estate Agency Affairs Board as part of the department, and they too have the ability to intervene at the level of those that can afford housing.
I think we have really been able to cater for the very many different sectors in our society, and hence we cannot fail the poor people in this country by leaving them behind. Ours is a caring government. It is a developmental government that does not choose the one over the other.
Yes, indeed, houses have been rolled out in Bothasig. But we think it would be right that we hand over those houses to the people in Elsie's River, Bontheuwel, Bellville and Mitchells Plain who have paid for their houses over and over. Why are we clinging to this, instead of giving it to the people? Through that, we will make sure that people take responsibility. The state can have the responsibility to deal with the housing backlogs of very many different people.
We have dealt with the question of the spatial challenges and the apartheid legacy. Regarding our programmes and our projects that we have here in the Western Cape, we have dealt with a very great programme called the Steenberg programme, close to Lakeside. We have also dealt with some programmes in Buffalo City, and in Fleurhof, Gauteng. All of these are projects that deal with the spatial challenges in our country and that change the face of apartheid. Those areas were formerly only earmarked for certain categories and certain race groups. We have now been able to change that dispensation.
I really think it is important what Salga is saying in that we should continue to support the provisions that we have set aside as a department, and how to bring an end to and deal with the backlogs through those different grants mentioned. Indeed, in terms of the Freedom Charter people do have the right to shelter.
It will be interesting, hon Sibande, to look at the aspect that you raised here with regard to the bylaws. I think that is an area that our department should look into - whether the bylaws do support our development programme or not.
Thank you very much, hon MEC from Gauteng. I think this afternoon we can take a leaf out of your book in terms of what you said here, which is that Gauteng was able to point out to us the synergies in the province. They pointed out the challenges they have, but also the progress that they have made. They are acknowledging the different needs in the area. They are acknowledging the tenure that they have. They are supporting mixed developments and they are making sure that there is a need for improvement of systems and policies. We think all provinces can learn from that.
I was pleasantly surprised, and I should maybe thank the DA for adopting some of the innovative alternative housing options that the national government has put forward. We can maybe start talking about all nine provinces that are now adopting the same mechanism. We will continue to urge the hon member to make sure that they stick to that innovation that we have started and continue to do so at the national level.
I do notice the willingness of everyone here in that what we must do is make sure that we deal with housing and the housing backlog in a manner that speaks to giving dignity back to our people. Therefore, I think that there is a problem with some of the statistics I heard here tonight. Tonight we also heard statistics of 1994, and those were not correct. It was 1,3 million; it wasn't 1,4 million or 1,6 million. So it is important, if we want to create a mechanism to deal with this problem, to have the correct statistics.
Again, I thank everyone for participating in this debate and, of course, I look forward to further engagement with the NCOP. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The Council adjourned at 17:56.
Kn/src(ch)/ END OF TAKE
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