Hansard: NA: Extended Public Committee
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 31 May 2013
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 438
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,03 Aug 2013,"Take 438 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-438] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
START OF DAY
Friday, 31 May 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
______________
The members of the Extended Public Committee met at 10:03.
House Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana):
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 438
Start of Day
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon members, before we proceed, as we agreed at the programme committee meeting yesterday, hon Trollip has been allocated three additional minutes. This is meant to allow him to say a few words in light of his resignation from the National Assembly. All other parties will be allowed one additional minute to say farewell to him.
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chairperson of the House, hon members, esteemed traditional leaders, ladies and gentlemen, I would like also to acknowledge and welcome the special guests who have honoured us with their presence in the gallery today, emerging farmers, commercial farmers, committee representatives on Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, sites, National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec, women and youth crafters and members of our reference groups across the country. [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, inspired by the Freedom Charter and the Reconstruction and Development Programme, the 52nd National Conference of the ANC in 2007 decided that rural development and land reform should rank amongst the top five priorities for the country. It recognised that the 1913 Natives Land Act had left lasting scars on rural communities; a painful legacy that, as part of addressing the national question, must be reversed.
Consequently, the post 2009 election administration, led by his Excellency, President Zuma, established the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform. Weeks later, the new department unveiled its agrarian transformation strategy, supported by the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, the CRDP. I am pleased to report that the CRDP is gaining momentum and effectiveness. It is becoming a way of life and is working. [Applause.] The CRDP rolls out in three phases, which run both sequentially and simultaneously.
Phase one is meeting basic human needs, including food security; Phase two focuses on rural enterprise development; and, Phase three focuses on rural industries supported by localised markets, credit facilities and infrastructure. This is inline with the National Development Plan's, NDP, vision.
The question we ultimately had to answer, after several pilots across the country, was what worked, and what didn't. Put differently, what were the success factors where things worked out and what factors contributed to failure where things didn't work out.
After four years of hard work and an investment of almost R2,2 billion, all indications are that a winning formula is evolving – in terms of the CRDP.
In Limpopo we have invested in infrastructure, in the form of housing, pack sheds, boreholes and support to co-operatives. In Masia we are investing in a multipurpose facility, including information and communications technology, ICT, an administration block, cultural and sports facilities in terms of an amphitheatre and library, this is in conjunction with the Department of Arts and Culture, and the upgrading of sports facilities which is in conjunction with the Department of Sport.
In Muyexe, we have constructed housing and other infrastructure. Recently, 50 youths have been trained in construction and will soon undertake road pavings in Gon'on'o, Dingamazi and Thomo villages. Plans for an amphitheatre in Thomo are complete and construction will be undertaken soon. These are all things that look small to us but are things that communities have come forward and say they require in their communities. We respond to them. [Applause.]
In the Eastern Cape we will soon hand over a 141m-long bridge over the Mbhashe River, which is dedicated to the world's greatest bridge builder, Nkosi Dalibhunga Mandela. This bridge leads to Nelson Mandela's birthplace, Mvezo. Construction has been completed, together with a 10 kilometre block paved road which links it with the N2. I believe even our great former President himself would be pleased with this. [Applause.] As a direct result of this project, youth in the two villages of Mvezo and Ludondolo have been trained in manufacturing bricks and paving. They will now pave the inter and intra-village roads, thereby improving roads and communities' access to services such as economic hubs, clinics and schools.
Information and communications technology, ICT, is being rolled-out to schools, for example, the Cofimvaba e-Textbook programme which involves the roll-out of the required information technology, IT, backbone infrastructure to a 26 school education circuit and the provision of a tablet device to every pupil and teacher involved. This is done in partnership with the Department of Science and Technology.
The department has novel systems to address the challenge of water in rural areas. One of these is the water purification plant at Empindweni Village in Mhlontlo Local Municipality in the OR Tambo District, which uses unfiltration technology to purify river water. This plant purifies 50 000l of water per day. The department has invested R347 million in acquiring 6 000 hectares of land in Cradock for sugar beet production. This is part of the bio fuels plant national demonstration plant soon to be built in the town.
In the Western Cape we have invested in infrastructure in Witzenburg, with the building of a walkway that not only improved the aesthetics, but also safety in the area. This project was undertaken by youth from the town.
In Dysseldorp, we have constructed a crèche and improved infrastructure, including ICT at schools. The high school in this small village has linked up this technology with Stellenbosch University for teaching. We hope that this will serve to improve the results of the school, thereby making learning easier and fun. Community members have been trained in road maintenance and school garden projects. The old age home has been refurbished using local labour and emergency housing, using sandbag technology was also reduced in that small village.
In Gauteng, we have constructed solar lighting and high mast lights for 200 households in Devon, one of the CRDP sites. This contributes to efficiency and community safety. Bulk infrastructure plans are being rolled out in Mamello in support of sustainable human settlements. Schools have been renovated and roads paved in and around the community facilities.
In the Northern Cape, we laid a 37km water pipeline, which feeds water from the Orange River to the community of Riemvasmaak. This is the first time that the entire community received pipe water, making daily access to water possible. [Applause.] Agricultural activities have increased, and production has led, not only to a boost in food security for the community, but more importantly, to a much needed boost to the local economy.
Schools have been renovated, a clinic built and access roads tarred in support of a community once cut-off from services. A stadium and sport facilities have been constructed enabling youth to participate in a range of sporting activities.
In KwaZulu-Natal, conservation agriculture technology has been introduced in Msinga Top with the support of the Agricultural Research Council. Implements like the four-row tipper planter, boom sprayers and other devices have been supplied to 19 co-operatives in 44 villages in that area.
Infrastructure is being rolled out in other Msinga areas with the construction of water reservoirs and the roll-out of electricity to more than 700 households as well as the upgrading of a water canal for the revival of the Tugela Ferry Irrigation Scheme. Msinga recently hosted the country's first indigenous goat auction, generating an income of more than R500 000 for the community through the sale of 575 goats.
In Sikame, Ward 7 in Vryheid, 904 houses have been built, creating a new sustainable human settlement there. A far cry from the mud houses they once occupied. This was a joint effort between the province and us.
In Uthungulu 1 550 households are gaining access to sanitation. In short, Ward Five, Ward Six and Ward Seven in Vryheid have benefited in terms of the installation of VIP toilets, renovation of schools and the construction of houses in the area.
In Mansomini, working with the SA Sugar Association, we have facilitated agricultural production of sugarcane and other crops, thus contributing to growth in the local economy. Mansomini has become one of our flagship CRDP projects. So successful is this enterprise that it has influenced Engen to reopen a filling station which had been closed for a long time. Small traders have reopened shops because of the success of this enterprise in that area. [Applause.]
In the Free State, the first semi-green village has been constructed in Diyatalawa using modern technologies in the form of solar lighting and solar geysers. Sports facilities have been constructed to encourage youth to participate in sport. A dairy parlour, equipped with new milking machines, pasteurisers and milk handling facilities has been constructed. Cattle have been purchased to supply the dairy with milk and an off-take agreement concluded with Nestle.
The community also planted and has recently harvested their first crop of wheat which generated substantial income to both the community and household level. The community has now leased 400 of their 2000 hectares of land at a rate of R400 per hectare per annum. This is a novel enterprise development initiative. The provincial government has also built boarding facilities for the local school.
Sixty eight farms in the Free State have been recapitalised and are flourishing, serving as flagship projects in this regard. Some are already moving into the red meat value chain. The Mokhachane family is soon going to open its own butchery in Virginia. [Applause.] Thanks to the successful contract that they have with Boer Feeds in the Free State where they sell tripe.
In the North West province, schools have been upgraded, solar and high mast lighting erected, and bulk water infrastructure construction is being planned. There is a very successful recap project there in Dabulamanzi, on the boundary of the North West province and the Free State province. This is a wonderful project which is actually a flagship employing 300 persons and is about to enter the agricultural value chain process.
In Mpumalanga, early childhood development centre and housing were constructed, solar lighting, water and sanitation infrastructure installed. Low-water bridges and roads are being constructed in Mayflower and Donkerhoek facilitating better access to facilities by communities.
In Donkerhoek a new school with boarding facilities has been built and housing renovated. These are projects undertaken jointly with the province. This is a further demonstration that working together, everything is possible.
I just want to quickly jump to what we are going to invest in this year because it is a very important aspect of what we request the House to support.
In order for Rural Development to increase food production in the country, the department will invest approximately R240 million to revitalise irrigation schemes on 5000 hectares of land in Valhaarts and Taung; five schemes in uMkhanyakude, Uthungulu, Mzinyathi and Zululand districts in KwaZulu-Natal; and three schemes in the Eastern Cape including the Keiskama and Ncora irrigation schemes will be enhanced. [Applause.]
The department will also invest approximately R220 million to improve animal and veld management across the country, including the areas of Mzimbugwe where the big dam will be built by the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs. [Applause.] This initiative will also contribute to the improved environmental management.
Approximately R70 million will be invested in roads and bridges across the country, including bridges in Pniel, and Wuperthal in the Western Cape as well as a bridge and road in Diyatalawa, in the Free State.
In the agricultural value chain, investments of R60 million in poultry, R32 million in dairy, R100 million in the fruit and vegetable industry, and R300 million in grains will be made.
On land reform, R2,7 billion will be invested, this in recapitalising 552 farms, and acquiring 170 000 hectares of land. The commission will invest approximately R3 billion in settling 438 claims across the country.
On spatial planning and land use management, this House has recently passed the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Bill. An amount of R31 million will be invested in preparation for the implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Bill once enacted. An amount of R68 million will be invested in the formulation of spatial plans in municipalities, which will focus on rural and poor municipalities, as well as the drafting of the national spatial framework which is a requirement of the NDP, and R25,2 million in formulating the integrated information systems, which informs our planning decision making.
In terms of e-Cadastre, an amount of R448 million will be invested in the development of the e-Cadastre system which will enable a holistic view of land ownership and to answer the question of who owns South Africa.
Much of the work of the department aims to reverse the negative legacy of colonialism and apartheid. There is, I believe, national consensus that the country must move on in order to promote real growth and anchor that growth in sustainability. This is why I am confident that the next phases of our programme will receive widespread backing.
There were numerous disastrous socioeconomic consequences of the Natives Land Act of 1913, not least the destruction of a fledging class of African farmers, the destruction of the environment and the deliberate impoverishment of black people in South Africa. This is the legacy we must reverse.
The President, during his state of the nation address announced the reopening of the lodgement of land claims for those who did not claim during the first window of opportunity. [Applause.] There are two aspects to this announcement, the first being the reopening of the lodgement process itself, and the second, the creation of exceptions to the cut-off date for claims relating to the Natives Land Act of 1913, specifically for heritage sites, historic landmarks and opportunities for the Khoi and San and their descendants to claim.
In terms of the 1998 cut off date, I am pleased to announce that Cabinet has approved the Restitution Amendment Bill for public comment. [Applause.] The gazette is available at all our offices and on the website. As for the 1913 cut off date for the descendants of the Khoi and San, and the heritage sites and historic landmarks, we have instituted consultative workshops and work is underway to codify these exceptions.
Ladies and gentlemen, during this latest lodgement opportunity, people will be assisted with a Citizens Manual for Land Claims. This will be available in all official languages, including languages spoken by the Khoi and San. [Applause.]
We are resolved to compiling an accurate oral history during this period. Too often in the past our histories have been recorded by the oppressor or uninvolved quests and witnesses. Now we intend to collect information directly from those descended of people who experienced first hand the effects of the Natives Land Act of 1913. Narysec will play an active role in this regard.
There is a tendency amongst casual observers to express impatience at the rate of progress on Rural Development and Land Reform. Be patient. Three hundred and sixty years of injustice cannot be put completely to right in a mere 19 years of democracy. [Applause.] The damage is too deep. But we are going in the right direction and doing things correctly. It is a work in progress and it is working.
We witness daily the development of infrastructure to reach and help the people in need. We are working hand-in-hand with more and more communities to enable them to take maximum advantage of that infrastructure and use it as an agent for changing their own lives and futures. We have a plan in place and it is a plan that is working. To achieve our goals, we have the co-operation of other departments, business and civil society at all levels. They are working with us. So too are the President and the Deputy President, and I thank them for that.
Next month, on 19 June, it will be precisely 100 years since the introduction of the Act which, more than any other, undermined the progress of this nation, the Natives Land Act of 1913. We intend to call, on that day, for a widening and determined national effort to put that Act and its implications behind us, to spread out our hands and grasp one another in a common bond by which we promise to move forward in harmony and unity, and pledge that never again will this country's good name be soiled by such ruinous legislation. On that day, on 19 June, I urge the members of this House and the citizens of this country to make that pledge also.
On 20 and 21 June, we are exhibiting a walking tour of a special reflective moment which has been mounted with co-operation from several sister departments, non-governmental organisations and personalities, which traces the history of our country and its people and pays homage to those who suffered in order to give us what we now enjoy.
We humbly invite the hon members of this House, including Ministers and Deputy Ministers, as well as political parties represented in this House, to this exhibition, which will be held on 20 and 21 June at the International Convention. You may wish to sign the pledge on that day.
Vision 2030, as set out in the National Development Plan, is the objective that will close the gap between the urban and rural segment of the economy. In pursuit of this vision the following will be done, namely: improved land administration; improved sustainable agrarian reform; increased access to quality infrastructure; sustainable rural enterprises; increased employment opportunities; increased employment rate in rural areas; and improved integration and co-ordination as a result of implementation of synchronised rural development strategies. These are fully in line with the CRDP.
I hereby table this Budget Policy Speech for consideration by this House. I thank you! [Applause.]
My apology, hon Chair! This is Nelson Mandela Bridge and I wish to hand it over to you on behalf of the President of the Republic. It is a beautiful bridge, 141m long. There is a 10-kilometer-long road from the N2. This road has been built by young people. It is not tarred but paved. They manufactured the paving, built the road and linked the bridge. It runs 10 kilometers through Lidondolo to Mvezo. This is a model. This is what we are going to do in every village. We are going to use young people and local labour to pave the road, and not tar. This is for you. Thank you very much, hon Chair. [Applause.]
Mr P S SIZANI /Arnold / GC / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 439
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,06 Jun 2013,"Take 439 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-439] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
10.24.45
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
IsiXhosa:
Mnu P S SIZANI: Ndiyabulisa kuwe Mbhexeshi oyiNtloko, nakuwe Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo nakuMalungu ePalamente, kwiindwendwe zonke zoMphathiswa ezize kukhunga lo msebenzi nani malungu abekekileyo ndiyanibhotisa.
English:
Chairperson, in order to promote social reconstruction, transitional states often must deal with the past injustices. The difficult issue frequently facing these states is what to do when former regimes have unjustly confiscated property from one group and given it to another.
Professor Bernadette Atuahene, in her research report of 2010, states that:
The most common response is to do nothing, but South Africa, Kosovo, Romania, the Baltic Republic, El Salvador, Colombia, Germany, Guatemala, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are among the few nations that have compensated their citizens for property violations that occurred under prior regimes. South Africa however, stands head and shoulders above other nations because her citizens have a unique constitutional right to restitution for the past property violations.
Professor Atuahene does not only present research findings to satisfy her academic curiosity but expresses the world reality of why there is unemployment, poverty and inequality in the listed countries. She is not only explaining this phenomenon of underdevelopment across the globe, but also gives reasons why we have to deal with the South African past imbalances and why we are lagging behind in economic development and in other fields of life.
She states that:
Wealth is an intergenerational phenomenon: it is accumulated during a person's lifetime and then passed along to kin. Likewise, disadvantage is also accumulated over generations such that the devastating tremors from the initial theft of assets - like the theft of Mrs Green's house - reverberate through time.
Since 1652, the successive colonial powers systematically dispossessed thousands of South Africa's original citizens through the barrel of a gun until 1910 when they created a union of the four republics they founded through the land dispossession. In 1913 they promulgated a Native Land Act to formalise what they thought was the permanent removal of the natives from their soil.
Not only did they forbid Africans from owning land in the union, but they also forbade even rental of land outside the designated reserves which constituted approximately 7,13% of South Africa's total land area. Since then, they began to consolidate their stronghold over land by removing black people from their own land, for example, over 3,5 million people were removed from what they termed black spots into Bantustans only between 1950 and 1986.
They did not only dump them in the former Bantustans, they also dumped them in what they called townships because they regarded them as temporary sojourners in their republic of South Africa, when they only have energy to provide service to the colonisers. They removed black people from Marabastad. They removed them from Pretoria and dumped them at Laudium. They removed the people from Amstelhof to Mbekweni. They removed them from District Six to the Cape Flats, far from the places where work is found and many more were removed after that.
The ANC believes the land question is a national phenomenon and not a local problem. The ANC believes that, "land is a fundamental feature of ownership and control". Over 350 years, generations of colonial and apartheid beneficiaries have acquired racial, gender and class concentration of property from the initial primitive accumulation through the barrel of a gun. I am emphasizing here on the barrel of a gun! [Applause.] The reason being that Tata Mandela had warned us, all generations to come, that this country must never do and even learn the practises of the past and therefore nobody will lose his property through the barrel of a gun ever again. [Applause.]
Thanks to the adoption of the Freedom Charter in 1955. South Africans who knew the value of successful coexistence decided that "South Africa belongs to all who live in it, both black and white".
However, that was not an unconditional statement as they believed that revenge and reparations cannot develop South Africa to the land of their dreams. They wanted "the land to be shared among those who work it". They envisaged a South Africa that was at peace with itself, with its neighbours and the world. They knew even at that time that progress and development can only be achieved through working together.
In Polokwane, and more recently in Mangaung, the ANC decided that restitution of lost land rights and land tenure were more urgent as millions of rural population continue to live in poverty and unemployment. The key to this point is the fact that land redistribution in South Africa is neither driven by reparations of the Khulumani style nor is it pursuant of the arch's wealth tax, but by reconciliatory approach to nation building and social cohesion.
In many cases absentee land barons do not care for these, but money. They speculate in many cases for high prices on land. They drag negotiations for a long time when we want to buy their land. They are mostly willing to sell marginal land and abuse our justice system by clinging to large chunks of land which could radically reduce unemployment, poverty and ultimately alter the relations and agrarian structure of our society.
It is precisely why pressure is put on the ANC by many stakeholders who met during the land summit in 2005 in Johannesburg to levy taxes on unused land speculators. Foreigners who buy land in sensitive areas of our country, along the coast, sometimes alongside poverty-stricken villagers use it for leisure and not to contribute to food security of our country. [Applause.]
There are large corporations who hold large tracts of land. Many landless citizens go to bed without food even though these people owned land. In this regard, caps or ceilings of landholdings are called for. In order to intervene in the land markets, it is necessary, Minister, for the state to move faster in establishing the office of the Valuer General to regulate land prices and valuations and by extension land possession to redistribute the land.
Better still, it is also necessary for the ANC to identify and acquire more strategically located agricultural land in order to deracialise ownership of land throughout South Africa. After all is said and done, it is vitally important that we move with necessary speed to reopen the lodgement of land claims to accommodate many people who could not lodge land claims within the cutoff date of 31 December 1998.[Applause.]
We have to do this also to accommodate the descendants of the Khoi and the San who predominantly lost their land prior to 1913. [Applause.] An amendment to the Restitution of Land Rights Act 22 of 1994 is necessary to facilitate the protection of families. Comrade Minister, that case is still haunting us in the portfolio committee in which three siblings took each other to court because one sibling claimed a collective land for himself and left the other siblings out. The court ruled in favour of the one who lodged the claim and those who did not claim, the court ruled against them that they lost their right because they did not exercise it.
In our committee we believe that a right, especially given to you by a Constitution, should not be removed because of feeling or lack of feeling, which is a mere administrative action. A right is a right and it must be protected. [Applause.] We have a number of cases in the North West where a chief who was young, and his uncle took over as a regent, lost a claim on behalf of the tribe. When the son came of age and claimed his throne, the chief refused claiming that it was given to him because the grown up nephew did not claim the land.
We also want the presettlement support of these claimants to be produced during the claiming process so that we prevent disputes and settle them even before they start. When the land is handed over to them, they must hit the land running to produce food and secure food security for their children.
The National Development Plan 2030, NDP, realised that most land transactions thus far have yielded little food security and revival of the rural economy. The ANC conference in Mangaung, decided to scale up the tempo of land redistribution so that it focuses beyond the 23 poorest municipal districts of the country and impacts on larger areas and not just through projects, but programmes.
Within the New Growth Path, NGP, beneficiation of agricultural produce and modernisation of farming methods by skilling and equipping the youth while supporting smallholding farmers is necessary. This will be combined with efforts to farm large tracts of land in various areas in the rural areas.
Given the fact that I am left with one and half minutes Minister, I want to deal with the evidence. The Minister has been involved in many activities across the country regarding rural development, but I want to show this document, for the benefit of those who came here and for the members of this House. Here is the body of evidence of the work that this department has been doing since 2009 in the rural areas.
You can see that this is a thick document listing all the activities of this department in the rural areas. I will leave it here for people to have a look at. It is evidence you can go and have a look yourselves. They say seeing is believing and the Bible says in John 3:11- "Sithetha esikwaziyo singqine esikubonileyo." [Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen.] [Applause.]
One of the most important pieces of evidence that I want to share with all of you today is the Uthungulu Project in KwaZulu-Natal. Many people are angry when they want their land. Guess what this department has done. It has invited the previous beneficiary of the apartheid land reform by saying, come and work with the new beneficiaries who are going to inherit the land, so that when they come onto this land they have got people who say this is what we have been doing to produce food. You must then just do the work and produce food for yourself and not for the master. It is working, go to Uthungulu, in KwaZulu-Natal and see for yourself. [Applause.]
When we looked at this as a committee, and compared it to iLembe, where the people just took the land and it is not being utilised.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member your time has expired.
Mr P S SIZANI: I still have 20 seconds Chairperson, may I?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No.
Mr P S SIZANI: What do you mean?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No, you are going up now.
Mr P S SIZANI: On behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform we support this budget, not only for the committee but also for the ANC. I know that the Whip will speak about Mr Trollip on our behalf. May I talk, just for two seconds please? We have done this in the committee.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order, please order! You will refer to Hon Trollip?
Mr P S SIZANI: Yes, to Hon Trollip.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Please!
Mr P S SIZANI: On behalf of Hon Trollip and the committee, we thank everybody who has made our committee successful. I regard our committee as successful because we work together and Comrade Trollip, I could dare call him Comrade Trollip, has deliberately challenged us to tell the truth and walk the path. [Laughter.] Thank you very much for doing that, we will remember you. [Applause.]
Mr R A P TROLLIP / LN/Checked by Nobuntu / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 440
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,04 Oct 2013,"Take 440 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-440] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
Mr P S SIZANI
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu M B SKOSANA) Ungakakhulumi Mnumzana, angithi kancane...
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): ... hon members, let me simply caution visitors not to applaud. I know it is very exciting to applaud, but you are not allowed to do that, it is unfortunate. You can just sit back and enjoy the debate and let the members here applaud on your behalf. [Laughter.] After all they are your own representatives, so you really own them. Continue Sir. [Applause.]
IsiXhosa:
Mnu R A P TROLLIP: Sihlalo, malungu ahloniphekileyo, zindwendwe zethu, ndifuna ukuthi namhlanje, Mphathiswa, ndiyayincoma le bhulorho kwaye nomsebenzi ndiwubonile phaya. [Kwaqhwatywa.] Into entle intle.
English:
I am very fortunate today to have my son and daughter with me on the last occasion to speak in this Parliament. [Applause.] I would like to dedicate the first few minutes of my address to my honourable colleagues. Not long ago I addressed this House on the occasion of my good friend and colleague Mark Ellis' farewell. I recall the occasion was marked with mixed emotions on both sides of the House. His presence here today is indeed an honour for me and I have mixed emotions myself. [Applause.]
I stand here today on the occasion of my last speech in the National Assembly of South Africa and I must confess that I am experiencing very similar emotions right now, not because of my length of service in this Parliament, but because today marks the end of a chapter in my political career. Hon members, I thought, though I have spent only a short four years in this Parliament, allow me to share some observations for whatever they are worth.
Having had the honour of being the Leader of the Opposition and for being a shadow minister of a portfolio I have learnt how enormous and important our parliamentary responsibility is to voters and to our nation. I have learnt that you can make a difference in opposition and in government through the legislative processes and by convincing opposing members to consider alternative ideas, only if you are fully familiar with the process and procedures that inform the formulation and passage of legislation.
We are all supposed to be leaders here and good leaders or readers. If you don't read, research and compare, you will become irrelevant and this will in turn undermine and erode the value of this Parliament. [Applause.] This Parliament can have any number of slogans and projects aimed at promoting the relevance of Parliament, but unless we as members honour our code of conduct, our constitutional responsibilities and our constituency obligations, we will never be an activist Parliament nor will we be able to adequately defend our constitutional democracy.
IsiXhosa:
Uhayi wam nguhayi, u-ewe wam ngu-ewe.
English:
We should say, "not in my name or in our name" when we are faced with unacceptable legislative proposals, patently choreographed investigation reports and a plethora of other frankly substandard practises and reports in our portfolio committees and other parliamentary committees. If we fail to do this we would all accept the collective verdict of guilty of not defending our constitutional democracy.
I am leaving Parliament the better for having made some impressive acquaintances and very fortunately for me having made some really good friendships on both sides of the House and behind me.
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyabulela kuMbhexeshi oyiNtloko ondamkele kwindlu yakhe, wandenzela isidlo endinqwenelela nendlela entle. Undenzele imbeko engummangaliso. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
English:
Though I was honoured with the most generous farewell function on Wednesday evening by my caucus colleagues where all the necessary thanks and goodbyes were said, it would be remiss of me not to thank them all publicly for their support during my time as Leader of the Opposition and for the sterling work that they continue to do in Parliament. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
I also want to share with this House the extraordinary story of hon Sunduza's appearance at our caucus farewell on Wednesday evening. She arrived uninvited and unannounced to give me a gift. The symbolic outreach had a profound impact on me and re-affirmed in my mind why we are here as Members of Parliament. [Applause.] We are here to do what we can and do what is necessary to improve the lives of the South African citizens...
IsiXhosa:
...sonke kunye. Ndiyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
English:
My thanks also go to the chairperson of this portfolio committee, my portfolio colleagues and the portfolio committee support staff with their very generous words of farewell and for the manner in which we conducted our important work.
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyabulela kakhulu.
English:
However, the unfolding Green Paper process remains a concern to me. After last year's budget, where the committee demanded to have its first and only presentation to date on the Green Paper, this disdain for the committee by the department is frankly just not good enough and the committee will not allow itself to be treated like mushrooms by the departmental staff. You know, you keep mushrooms in the dark and feed them manure. That will not happen to that committee.
In preparing for this debate, not only did I consider the annual performance plan, the proposed budget and every other report given to us, I read my speech from the last debate. This retrospection serves to reinforce my worst fear that this department is failing to meet its enormously important mandate. This regrettably state of affairs could not come at the worst time. 2013 is the year that marks the centenary of the 1913 Natives' Land Act and one would have expected this most unfortunate and most regrettable milestone to have been recognised by ensuring an unprecedented and long overdue flurry of sustainable rural developmental initiatives. Not the fluttering of flags and the erection of tents covered in slogans, the poor, hungry and landless people do not want to eat slogans. They cannot eat slogans.
The 23 identified district comprehensive rural development plan projects have flattered only to deceive. In this regard I challenge the Minister to tell this House what happened to the department's appointed consultant who stole a million rand from a women's project in Muyexe? This was reported more than a year ago. I want the Minister to come back to the podium and tell us what happened to that person who stole that money? [Applause.]
The only way to appropriately commemorate and redress the abominable Natives' Land Act and the other equally reprehensible Acts that systematically expropriated the land and the dignity of black, coloured and Indian South Africans is to ensure that the programmes of restitutions, redistribution, land and agrarian reforms result in the establishment of the successful and sustainable black commercial farmers and self sufficient small-scale black farmers. To this end, the ANC-led government must also give private free-hold titles to all people living in the former homeland areas and in Ingonyama Trust areas for all the obvious reasons, and also because the National Development Plan, NDP, identifies insufficient tenure security for black farmers in communal areas as a major risk to agricultural expansion and the objective of building inclusive rural economy.
Hon Sizani, you said that the ANC must acquire more land. There is a fundamental difference between the ANC and government. It is not the ANC's responsibility to acquire land. It is the government's responsibility to acquire land. [Applause.] In this regard, we must hold up a mirror to this department raison d'être and consider this image against the backdrop of the Minister's admission that 90% of this department's land reform programmes have failed. This failure has ironically also provided those that prey on the resources of the state easy access to a source of ready cash. The so-called recapitalization programme which is set up to resuscitate going commercial farms that this department has allowed to fall into unproductive disrepair has become a veritable cash cow for corrupt officials and their cohorts.
What is happening with the many farms acquired in Cradock and Somerset East, firstly the sugar beet project and now the biofuel project is a case in point? These properties have been allowed to become run down and unproductive in a very short space of time and will perforce have to be recapitalized at enormous and wasteful expenditure.
Minister, don't think that reaching your quantitative land reform targets will address the issue of rural poverty and landlessness. Firstly you don't have a clue how much state land you have. You have a vague, but by no means credible, idea of how much private farm land there is and who owns it. This, despite the fact that you held up a pathetic bar graph illustration in this house claiming that the land audit is complete. In the Eastern Cape alone, there are 4 million hectares of either unsurveyed or surveyed and unregistered land, just in the Eastern Cape. So we do not have a land audit; we have no idea of how much land there is.
You also don't have the faintest idea of what the potential land value or land holding would be of those restitution beneficiaries who chose cash settlements in lieu of land distribution or land restitution. So until you do know this, don't claim easy victories and more importantly don't tell the people that are here any lies. [Applause.]
My advice to you and your Cabinet colleagues would be to concentrate on addressing the facts in rural development, land reform and agriculture. These are the contribution of agriculture to the gross domestic product, GDP has decreased from 9.1% in 1965 to less than 2% in 2012 and the number of commercial farmers has gone from 100 000 to 36 000 in 15 years. These are the people that feed the nation and employ hundreds of thousands of people but they are disappearing. [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
Hayi ndiza kufika nalapho. Ndivuya kakhulu ukuba uthetha loo nto; ndiza kufika kuyo loo nto.
English:
It is thus increasingly difficult for new entrants to succeed at farming as they have to face ever-increasing international competition; rising import costs especially electricity and wages.
IsiXhosa:
Bendiye eKhangela kule nyanga iphelileyo apho kuqeshwa abantu baze bahlaliswe kwiicontainers. Aba bantu bahlawulwa ama-R85 ngosuku ngurhulumente.
English:
New entrants need to receive appropriate support in order to cope with these difficulties. This is your responsibility and you are failing them dismally and if you are honest, hon Minister, you will have to admit that you are not producing new competent commercial farmers or competent small-scale farmers through the land reform programme. The other important facts about your department that constrain your ability to deliver are: successive qualified audits by the Auditor-General; financial irregularities in the department that have prompted the Special Investigative Unit, SIU, investigation; massive claims against the department resulting from negligence and slip shod legal proceedings; persistently high levels of irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure amounting to R83,4 million in 2011/12 alone.
Your budget which we will conditionally support in this historically important year of 2013 is simply not adequate to achieve your targets, regardless of what the market price is. So Minister, get real, cut your cloth to what you can afford and use your budget more effectively, efficiently and economically and stop looking for the proverbial scapegoats.
Afrikaans:
Jy weet, julle het daardie ou stories van julle heeltemal holrug gery.
English:
Furthermore you must understand that unless the re-opening of the land claims process is funded by Treasury, we cannot support the budget because your current budget cannot cover the finalisation of the current land restitution programme.
Now for some home truths, your departmental staff are the Achilles heel of your department and in this regard let me quote what I said about them last year after being in the committee for five short months; my impression has regrettably been reinforced one year later. The following were my observations and I quote myself:
In interaction with officials of this department over 13 years and my experience to date has been one of frustration as a direct result of ineptitude, carelessness, lack of Batho Pele, lack of professionalism, lack of integrity and blatant dishonesty. As with everything in life there are the exceptions and for those that I have encountered, I wish to say thank you. For the rest, Minister, I say shame on them.
They know who they are and, Minister, if you and your Deputy Minister attended our meetings more often you would know who they were too. However, I must commend the Chief Land Claims Commissioner, when I write to that man, he responds on the same day and within a week I have an answer. That is unique in that department.
I leave Parliament today knowing that I did what I could where I was and with what I had at my disposal. Regrettably though, due to the shocking work ethic of your staff, I leave here with the queries I inherited from my predecessor and those that were generated in my time in this portfolio, mostly unanswered. These queries were not dreamt up by me, they come from South African citizens, tax payers and voters. You and your officials ignore them at your peril.
Their failure compounds our precarious national food security status and the brunt of the cost of imported basic food stuffs is felt most sorely by the poorest in our society. These are the people that the ANC have taken for granted for so long as being their voting fodder.
IsiXhosa:
Abantu abahluphekileyo bayayazi indlala.
English:
You don't have to tell poor people how difficult it is to be poor.
IsiXhosa:
Baza kunibonisa. Indelelo yenu iza kunibetha kabuhlungu ngowama-2014, yiva ndikuxelela. [Interjections.]
English:
Lastly Minister, please explain to this House today when you come to this podium what the hon Minister Radebe meant by these words:
We look to our courts to develop jurisprudence to guide us regarding the interpretation and implementation of the provisions of the property clause in our Bill of Rights. It is for this reason that we have through the department of Rural Development and Land Reform, proposed legislative amendments that will enable the judicial service commission to recruit judges who possess appropriate skills and the required judicial philosophy to redress the devastating effects of land dispossession. I am pleased that my colleague in the ministry of Rural Development and Land Reform is pursuing these amendments.
Minister I asked you to explain those words because they were said in your name and because 2013 is the centenary commemoration of the 1913 Natives' Land Act, and because they sound ominously like an assault on our constitutional provisions and on an independent judiciary.
Hon members, my grandfather was a member of this Parliament. He opposed the government that implemented those laws and I am a member of this Parliament and I oppose your laws. [Interjections.] I oppose your laws because what is wrong is wrong and what is right is right and I want to say in conclusion that it has been an honour serving with you, only when we were honest with each other. Only when we were honest with each other!
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Mr W M MADISHA / LN/Checked by Nobuntu / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 441
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,04 Jun 2013,"Take 441 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
Mr R A P TROLLIP
Mr W M MADISHA: Hon Chairperson, Mr Minister and all, good morning. I must say to hon Trollip that you have done well. Cope wants to thank you greatly. [Applause.] We are going to miss you and therefore go very well. Cope shall go on and speak with you from time to time. I hope with your experience you will be able to help.
The strategic goals of this department are to, namely, foster land reform and land restitution; implement agrarian reform; ensure spatial equity; improve food production; and improve access to sustainable employment and skills development. These are five very important goals. The big question that this House should be asking is how the department evaluates itself in respect of each of these goals. A self evaluation would show serious intent and commitment. Our task as Members of Parliament, MPs, would then be to interrogate that assessment for progress, accuracy and validity.
Cope believes that a budget debate should actually be a progress evaluation and value for money. In its five years of existence, this administration's national debt has increased by a massive R1 trillion. One trillion rand has twelve zeroes. To service this debt costs R100 billion. As this cost rises further and government revenue declines because of the economic downturn, fiscal space will diminish at an alarming stage. The warning of the Minister of Finance regarding social turbulence is evident everyday, whether it is on television or in any other media.
Land and agrarian reforms must be speeded up and deliver outcomes which have to be presented to us as a nation. When are we going to get the results of a performance audit? Consultants brought in from outside cost this department R1 billion over three years. This monumental expenditure has to be properly justified to this House. According to the Auditor-General of South Africa, Agsa, the use of consultants by government over three years cost R102 billion. This is utterly shocking and an indictment on us for allowing resources to be diverted from infrastructure in this way. This is unacceptable.
Land restitution cannot be seen merely as land transfer from one group to a disposed group to achieve transformation – in quotes of course. A going concern should be maintained. Productive land under commercial farming cannot be reduced to subsistence type of farming. Cope would like to know whether it is a rumour or a fact that one million hectares of commercial farms had, after restitution or transfer, properly gone out of production. If this is true restitution is creating an unintended consequence. This must be addressed with the vigour it deserves.
In 1980 our country had 128 000 commercial farms. Three years after the democratic government came into office this number had declined to 58 000. We would like to know from the Minister, how many commercial farms are in existence this year and what the projections are for the next five years. This is something this House urgently needs to know. The Minister is urged to make a pronouncement.
Cope believes that the land issue must be decisively resolved. It will soon be 20 years and instead of being told that the matter was satisfactorily concluded, Ministers come to this House on and on -year after year - to roll what should have been completed by target date. There has never been any conclusion at all. What we and the intended beneficiaries – the ordinary people out there - get are excuses and promises. This government is good at promising but always lacks delivery on time.
Furthermore, everyone needs certainty. It is the lack of certainty which is driving the rand down as we saw yesterday. It is driving investors away. To all intents and purposes our economy is being sabotaged from inside.
Agrarian reform is of vital importance for five reasons: Firstly, citizens need their food security to be guaranteed. Secondly, all productive land has to be used to increase the gross domestic product, GDP. Thirdly, employment opportunities have to be expanded. Fourthly, land must be available and affordable to new farmers. Fifthly, agricultural exports must have full support as it is in the European Union, EU, and the USA.
Agrarian reform requires clarity and action and our economy demands this. The five or more million people, who are out of jobs, require that. Why is this matter not getting the high priority status it deserves? We need answers, Mr Minister. I must say among the majority of Ministers I respect you more.
Cope also demands to know why the laws and programmes aimed at protecting tenure rights of farm workers and labour tenants are not being vigorously and supportively implemented. We use this word ubuntu as rhetoric when we should be using it as our South African way of life.
An agrarian reform that stalls or fails will cause social upheaval. Mr Minister, we have to get this right in terms of our constitutional order. Therefore, Cope calls for a land Convention for a Democratic South Africa, Codesa, because South Africans have shown... [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon member, your time has expired. I now call upon hon Cebekhulu.
Mr W M MADISHA: Skierpot, skierpot, go and ask skierpot plastic bag.
Mr R N CEBEKHULU / NN / GC / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 442
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,30 Jul 2013,"Take 442 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
Mr W M MADISHA
Mr R N CEBEKHULU: House Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members of this House and guests, the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform was established with a sole purpose of co-ordinating different departments as a catalyst for rural development and it is supposed to adhere to values such as accountability and commitment, as established in its vision and mission statement.
However, I find it very difficult to understand why it is taking so long for the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform as well as the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, to display their commitment in ensuring recapitalisation of certain farms which have long been in the hands of beneficiaries. Without help from the department, a lot of the land is unproductive.
A lot of land is sitting idle, attracting land invaders who establish homesteads on it; for example, it is alleged that the people occupying land next to Fatima Mission, under the Ntambanana Local Municipality, are our foreign brothers and sisters. This is because they have been lured by certain individuals who take money from them, under the guise of selling land to them.
Chairperson, as a committee we went on an oversight visit to different provinces; but we have not had the opportunity to revisit these provinces to see whether any development has taken place regarding the committee's recommendations. A case in point is that of Myexe, where water supply for the irrigation of the community garden is a major problem; the structure that we did see in place was a very paltry, which appeared as if the officials were just putting on a show for our benefit.
The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform with the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – I am happy that the Minster has pointed out the issue of irrigation scheme at Tugela Ferry. But I visited the area in March, only to find that the scheme at that time was not revived. The officials told me that it was because of the changing of tender documents; so the contractor who was supposed to take that tender and do the job could not be identified.
Chairperson, ten tractors, which were meant to assist in land preparation and planting in uMsinga, are sitting broken down and idle on office premises. This is a common sight in many other regions, not only uMsinga.
The irrigation scheme in the Makhathini flats has also run into problems; a scheme that was started in 1979 with 600 hectares and now has 3 927 hectares of land, which has been developed. Despite the increase in size of development, the lack of skilled professionals to oversee the project has resulted in it becoming dilapidated, despite promises of increased staff from national and local leadership.
Another challenge for the department is addressing the issues of land claims. There are instances where traditional leaders tried to lodge land claims but were turned away to go and establish trust for the land claimants; and in some cases, they were told to allow individual members of the community to lodge land claims by themselves.
In actual fact, in traditional communities all land is held by Amakhosi as trustees for their traditional communities, and this right should not have been taken away as a veiled strategy to introduce individual ownership in what is inherently communal land.
Chairperson, I want to point out that in the Ntambanana area, out of nine farms that I have seen, seven of them are state-owned. These farms would have been better off leased in order to provide employment for the local people, and at the same time bring in some immediate cash for the state out of the lease agreement.
The state of vandalism in some of these farms will lead to unnecessary costs when the time comes for the department to start making use of the land. The farms provided employment for approximately 500 people who support about 5 000 dependants.
The land issue is one of the biggest challenges the department faces, and by now it was supposed to have distributed 30% of the agricultural land back to the black farmers. This has not been achieved and the biggest question arises, out of all the land claims that were lodged, how many have been settled, finalised, or are in the process of being finalised?
I am sure that there are farmers who have agreed to sell their farms but the department does not have funds available to buy these farms, and while waiting these farmers have stopped working the land. By the time the department pays them, the land will not have been worked for a long time. The beneficiaries will then have to start afresh preparing the land, which would mean that they will need to spend more money before they even start farming on the land.
IsiZulu:
Sengiphetha, Sihlalo weNdlu, ngicela ukudlulisa la mazwi kumhlonishwa u-Trollip. Mhlonishwa u-Trollip, ngidlulisa izilokotho ezinhle kuwena, sisebenzisana kahle nawe eKomidini lezokuThuthukiswa koMphakathi. Njengalokhu sekuqinisekisiwe ukuthi usuyosebenzela iqembu lakho esifundazweni sase-Eastern Cape, ngithi ndlelanhle, kube yisibusiso kanye nenjabulo ukusebenza nawe mhlekazi. Ngiyathokoza. [Ihlombe.]
Mrs N T NOVEMBER / MMN(Eng.)//NPM (IsiZ.)\\\tfm/// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 443
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,04 Oct 2013,"Take 443 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-443] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
Mr R N CEBEKHULU
Mrs N T NOVEMBER: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, the Deputy Minister and the other Deputy Ministers in the House, hon members, guests, ladies and gentlemen, !Gâi tsēs [Good day.]. Mî re? [How are you?] [Interjections.]
Afrikaans:
Dis geen wonder dat die arme agb Willie Madisha so kop onderstebo in hierdie Huis sit nie. Hy het seker maar 'n identiteitskrisis of iets van die aard. Hy het dit tog self genoem. Hy is onseker en onsekerheid laat maar daardie smaakie agter. Môre sal hulle so onseker wees en nie weet of hulle nog Cope of Coida is nie. Dis die onsekerheid. Die ANC bly die ANC en het geen naamsverandering nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die ANC is hier om te bly, want die ANC leef en hy sal voortlei.
English:
I will be debating most on the rural women and rural youth. The United Nations Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women and the Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People's Rights on the Rights of Women, known as the Maputo Protocol, consider women's poverty and underdevelopment as a result of how gender discrimination causes unequal distribution of resources such as land, water, food and education. We take pride in the programmes of the government of the ANC that makes the plight of rural women and youth a priority.
One of those programmes is the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, which hon President Zuma's administration initiated as a vehicle through which vibrant, equitable and sustainable rural communities could be attained. For most of the rural women, land is not only an economic resource; it is also a source of status and recognition. Yet, there are many barriers to women's access to land and many of those are structural in nature.
Rural development is a central pillar of our struggle against unemployment, poverty and inequality. High levels of rural poverty and inequality inhibit the growth of our economy and undermine efforts to ensure that growth is more equitably shared amongst our people. From the women's point of view, the crux of the CRDP intervention is to change the structures that create and uphold unequal distribution of resources and power between women and men.
Afrikaans:
Vroue het oor die algemeen 'n baie lang, swaar en moeilike pad geloop. As ons net vir 'n oomblik terug kan kyk, sal dit dan ooglopend wees dat die vrou nog nie haar regmatige plek in die samelewing ingeneem het nie.
Die berugte Natives Land Act of 1913 [Naturelle Grond Wet van 1913] het toe daardie tyd al dinge vertroebel. Dis toe daarom dat die vroue, in dieselfde jaar, in opstand gekom het teen die destydse regering, om hul stem te laat hoor en hul regte te eis, danksy die ANC-regering met sy wonderlike Grondwet en wonderlike beleide. Ek wil net een beleid noem en dis die beleid wat ons almal vandag hier geniet as vroue, die 50/50%. [Tussenwwerpsels.] Die Vryheidshandves van 1955 het toe die basis gelê dat die grond gelyk op verdeel gaan word. Almal sal toegang hê tot 'n stukkie grond.
Dit staan geskryf in die boek van Jesaja 62 en ek hou van die vers so in IsiXhosa: Ngenxa yeZiyoni andiyikuthula ndithi tu, ngenxa yakho Yerusalema andinakuzola [Because of Zion I will not keep quiet, and because of Jerusalem I will take no rest.] Dis waaroor die ANC se lede in tronke opgesluit was en die meeste van hulle in hulle grafte lê. Dit is oor hierdie waarheid dat die ANC nie stilgebly het nie en in die toekoms nie stil sal bly nie. Die grondkwessie was en is nog steeds 'n seer pyn.
English:
Over the last three years, the Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform travelled the length and breadth of our country to see for ourselves what the department had done with the funds voted by Parliament.
Afrikaans:
Ek moet nou so 'n bietjie spog. Dis dan ons regering.
English:
In Limpopo we found the Mancena Women's Vegetable Garden in Giyani that focuses on food security and economic empowerment for rural women. In Mpumalanga, at the Mkhondo Local Municipality, the Jabulani Agrivillage is focussing on the mobilisation of women for economic development. [Applause.] In the Northern Cape, at the Kai Garib Municipality, the cattle holding facility at Sending has helped rural women to improve their livestock management. In ward 29 and 5 of the Moses Kotane Local Municipality, North West province, the department has championed the green economy project for solar street lights. The government installed 120 solar street lights systems comprising of the photovoltaic system, PV, panels, batteries and luminaires in Mokgalwaneng, Diske and Matlametlong.
In Limpopo, the Tshivhazwaulu Communal Property Associations, CPA, has received land in terms of the restitution programme. A group of women are managing a commercial agricultural enterprise which has generated jobs for the CPA. Currently, they use 15,5 hectares and have over R800 000 turnover. They are planning an expansion of their production. All these projects are contributing toward improving the status of rural women. They are part of a programme that gives effect to the ANC's 52nd National Conference resolutions which states that gender equality must be a critical ingredient and an important outcome of all our programmes of rural development, land reform and agrarian change.
Our oversight visits have also highlighted lessons to be drawn from the implementation of these projects. One of the key issues is enhancing the co-ordination of government and nongovernment interventions to support rural development and land reform. The committee has welcomed the strategy presented to it and will monitor the implementation of this programme.
In the contemporary African land reform debates, issues of private and communal land tenure systems emerge to be the two contending models of what the appropriate governance models should be for land tenure. In many cases, these become a much polarised discourse, especially when dealing with the women's land rights where the importance of communal or collective land rights are emphasised on one hand, and on the other hand, reluctance toward yielding to groups or communities. We trust that as the department finalises the policy framework on communal land tenure, special attention should be given to address women's land tenure issues by getting rid of provisions that reproduce women's poverty and disadvantage. In fact, I would urge that we need substantive gender equality that transcends treating men and women as equals.
The ANC supports this Budget. Hon Trollip, my friend, sorry, I would have said something to you.
Afrikaans:
Jou oupa het gesorg dat ons die dummy [fopspeen] in die mond kry en dan swaarkry op die ander ent. [Applous.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM / Src / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 444
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,04 Oct 2013,"Take 444 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
Mrs N T NOVEMBER
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr S L TSENOLI): : Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, and our guests in the gallery - thank you for being here, having accepted our invitation. We hope you are enjoying the debate for whatever it is worth. We also wish to welcome those at home and abroad, including those on cyberspace and those listening to community radio stations throughout the country because the involvement in these processes is important.
We would like to ensure that the outcomes of what we are doing here are seen in concrete steps on the ground as the Minister just demonstrated in the diagram of a bridge. We intend to support and to state the blinding glimpses that are obvious in this Budget Vote, not only for reasons that it intends to do in the next year, two or three but also what it addresses in historical and political terms.
The central challenges of rural development and land reform are over a century old and constitute part of what defines the problematic structure of the South African economy. It is, in fact, a tragic irony, if I may say so, that mining remains, today, the headache it was over a century ago, instead of the opportunity it actually is and can be.
Experts tell us that it was captains mining and energy that influenced the then Smuts government to introduce the notorious 1913 Natives' Land Act and subsequent similarly bad laws for indigenous people. The significance of us stating these historical facts is to appreciate the enormity of the task that we have to deal with and its origins.
We should not conceal the origins of the problems that we are addressing. The significant part of it is that the subsequent actions that were taken to forcefully remove people from their land, thus, destroying the thriving successes of their work that they were making on the land, as a result, has meant the destruction of the relationship of the people with the land and their environment – forcing them into overcrowded areas, leading to overgrazing and of course the destruction of the soil.
The most ridiculous part was that part of what was to emerge was even to prevent people from holding independent jobs, such as women in the Free State, for example. It was illegal for them not to work as domestic workers, even if they had independent means of living and so on. It created the source of what we refer to as the national grievance which informed and inspired the struggle then and continues to do so now.
Miners were drawn from rural areas in our country and from our neighbours, in Lesotho, Botswana, Swaziland and Mozambique. Some of their traditional leaders – not all of them obviously - became recruitment agents and leaders in mining compounds where they lived in single-sex hostels. This rural urban dynamic, driven by the interests of capital, continues without regard to the living conditions of miners today. Is it any surprise that these were exposed in the manner in which they were during the Marikana disaster?
However, the call agreed to at Nedlac remains valid that parties commit to develop a deeper, constructive industrial relations environment, with broader dialogue on challenges faced by the sector, companies and of course the workforce, as well as surrounding communities. So, the work which is in progress, that was agreed to at Nedlac in an initiative that is led by the President, is absolutely necessary to produce the result we would like to change in this area.
The problematic property relations regime as it existed in 1994, when freedom dawned, is at the heart of what needs to change and reference has already been made by the Minister and other speakers earlier. The government has since listened to calls that were made to remind members at the Land Summit that was convened by government in 2005, inclusive of many stakeholders and political parties, who recommended, amongst others that the Department of Rural Development be created in order to reopen land claims. We have listened. We are implementing and responding to those requirements.
Changes in land ownership, land use and land control are a necessary obligation we have to fulfil if we are to transform our country appropriately in the economic sphere, socially and environmentally. Hon Trollip, the knowledge, that we now have in the land audit creates an even better environment for us to move swiftly to expand redistribution of land to many who are ready to use it, finalise and speed up claims on land for restitution.
We are learning from the past and from others in influencing us to speed up, improve the timing of our interventions, coordinate our support and responsiveness to beneficiaries of land reform and restitution, including for people in communal areas. This area is work in progress. We are building relationships with a variety of knowledgeable people in universities, and in NGO's, and improving our intergovernmental collaboration where provincial and municipal government is increasingly beginning to play a crucial role in the support work that we are talking about.
The Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Bill is the one are around which there has been interesting collaborations as well. It is going through consultation in the provinces on behalf of the NCOP and we hope that when it comes into place it will compliment the existing progressive laws to reverse apartheid spatial fragmentation, to rehabilitate destroyed fertility of the soils, and preserve our environmental resources. This Bill, when it is law, will play a crucial role in driving the spatial agenda of development in both rural and urban areas.
Chapter 8 of the National Developmental Plan is absolutely spot-on in how it problematises this area and its proposals, amongst others, for spatial justice. Ironically, it is true that urban metropolitan areas produce dynamism that is attractive to many. However, it is equally true that it creates inhumane conditions that drive people back and forth to rural areas. It is rural neglect that must not be allowed to be the driver of migration.
In other words, if people often times choose a Hobson's choice anyway, it must not be due to failure of provision of their legitimate rights, in the rural areas, which they deserve, in the hope and the often expressed suggestion that somehow by trickle down they will receive some outfit when the metropolitan areas grow. Hon Trollip, let me say that I agree with those who express their appreciation of your contribution, sir.
In appreciating your contributions, others will often envy you for the space that you are going to have with your family - your daughter and son whom I know. That is a great thing to look forward to for people of your age. [Laughter.] Let's deal with some issues that are crucial to the debate that we are talking about here. You see, sir, the truth is a slippery affair. We must not mistake our personal views for the truth. The truth is also a lot more complex than the assumption which you speak on the basis of the limited information- if we may humbly point out- that you have got at that time. It can always change with empowerment on additional information.
Your tongue slipped a little when you referred to the Chief Land Claims Commissioner as a 'he'. When I last checked, she hadn't changed her gender: Nomfundo Gobodo is a woman! Let me just point this out: It was a mistake! [Interjections.]
Mr R A P TROLLIP: On a point of order, Chair: My tongue did slip. I meant the Chief Surveyor General. So, my tongue did slip.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr S L TSENOLI**): Oh, it slipped twice? All right? [Laughter.]
Mr R A P TROLLIP: Yes, I meant the Chief Surveyor General...
IsiXhosa:
Nankuya! Yindoda!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr S L TSENOLI**): Okay, now that's even better. It illustrates the points about the truths. Okay?
Mr R A P TROLLIP: Yes!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr S L TSENOLI**): Let me put this upon you. Sir, you must not be selective in your praise. The bridge that the Minister was talking about here did not come about outside of the efforts of officials in the department. The people that you see up there in the gallery have experiences - both good and bad of course. However, let's not be selective in the attributes that we give to the entire public service. It is not appropriate... [Interjections.] No, of course, it is true.
We are just saying that it is important to mention them in the work that is demonstrably visible out there. It is also precisely because of the hugeness of the task that mistakes are often committed which we say we increasingly learn from on a regular basis.
You reckon that what happened in the department prompted the Special Investigation Unit, SIU to investigate. No, sir, it didn't happen that way! We approached the President. He agreed with us that this investigation must take place because we, on our own, noticed that there were problems of corruption in certain instances. You have also not said what you know about people who have been arrested, convictions that were established in this area and materials that indicated the proactive steps that the department has taken to investigate. You knew that but you didn't talk about it. So, why do you produce selective information? [Applause.]
Mr R A P TROLLIP: Okay!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Mr S L TSENOLI): It is important to point out that of course the new department – the whole government - has undertaken to carry out this investigation work. We are relentless about it. The fact that the matter is in the courts, and that some of the cases have been completed, must also be stated, as we point out others who are finicky with the rule of law and so on. We have committed ourselves outrightly on this matter.
Hon Madisha, you used to be a leader of the workers in the trade union movement. Now you assume that only the law will produce the results for the protection of workers, especially farm workers. Sir, I thought you would have known yourself that, even with the existence of the Labour Relations Act and the Conditions of Basic Employment Act of workers, the domestic workers and workers of all kinds have had to strike to enforce the implementation of the law.
What makes you think new laws will improve conditions. You should not avoid pointing out to those who flawed the law - the employers, who you are quiet about - to get away with murder. It is wrong! [Applause.]
The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform – please, members, remember that the President did away with Land Affairs – is now Rural Development and Land Reform! It is crucial that we recognise that it is not only a national priority that the visits that we have been making to the 23 districts, for example, to interact with traditional leaders and mayors, members of provincial legislatures and farmers in certain instances in those areas, have produced a platform for people to give us direct feedback of how they are experiencing the work of the department.
We have had an opportunity to introduce a composite picture of the work that the department is doing in an environment in which people can get immediate responses to their issues. The approach of the Minister working with other Ministers and ourselves in this programme offers the community the opportunity to ensure that their issues are addressed on a regular basis. We never said this is going to be easy. It will continue to be tough. However, with the co-operation that we are increasingly getting across the three spheres, horizontally, between departments of agriculture for example, which, strangely enough, have repeatedly pointed out the reversal of the decline in the agricultural production. But, this was not mentioned here today.
The jobs, if any, that were created this last quarter, came from agriculture. The jobs also came from the collaboration between the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. Of course, this is true, unless you want to question Statistics SA and its information base. [Interjections.] You have no authority on that matter! Those who are authority have pointed that out.
We support this programme and hope that our visitors who are here today will work with us to intensify the correction of mistakes where they occur; to celebrate with us where we make progress every step of the way. We will bring about changes with regards to who owns the land, uses the land, and who manages the land with the co-operation of traditional leaders, councillors and others. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms P P XABA / /Mosa/ [Retranscribed by Mr Nkohli]/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 445
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,21 Jun 2013,"Take 445 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-445] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
Ms P P XABA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Ministers, hon members of this House, distinguished guests at the gallery, we are here today to support the Budget Vote of the Rural Development and Land Reform together with Ingonyama Trust Board. The South African countryside is made up of a very significant class stratum of the landless rural masses who are confronted by economic exclusion. This directly ensues from a long period racial land divisions entrenched through the provisions of the Native Land Act of 1913. This class stratum is a living testimony of people ravaged by unemployment and poverty. [Applause.] Some of these people live on the land owned by Ingonyama Trust.
IsiZulu:
Ingonyama Trust yakhiwa ngokwezimiso zeMithetho yaKwaZulu-Natali ngonyaka we-1994. Izindaba zeNgonyama Trust ziphethwe yibhodi elakhethwa ngonyaka we-1997. Umsebenzi webhodi leNgonyama Trust yilo: ukuba ngumnikazi osemthethweni womhlaba weNgonyama Trust ongamahektha ayizigidi ezi-2,8; ukulawula umhlaba nomcebo wawo; ukwenza ngcono izimpilo zabantu abahlala emhlabeni weNgonyama Trust; ukuthuthukiswa komhlaba ukuze ungenise inzuzo ukwenzela abantu bethu abasemakhaya futhi uhambisane nomthetho kazwelonke; ukuqinisekisa ukuthi nanoma yikuphi okuletha inzuzo okwenziwa kulo mhlaba wabantu kuthuthukisa ezomnotho, kuphinde kwenze ngcono izimpilo zabantu basemakhaya.
English:
Hon Chairperson, the economic vision of the African National Congress is founded on the Freedom Charter's call that the people shall share in South Africa's wealth. [Applause.] The work of the Ingonyama Trust Board is precisely meant to ensure that the wealth of the land is shared. [Interjections.] In addition to the legislative mandate of administering the land on behalf of the community who live on it, the board has assumed the role of a typical development agency. It has entered into business transactions with investors for the material benefit of communities. It has thus become a catalyst for development in the areas of its jurisdiction. [Interjections.]
We would like to congratulate the Ingonyama Trust Board for the completion of its new administration building in Pietermaritzburg, at the cost of R22,3 million. [Applause.] The building was officially opened by His Majesty, King Zwelithini on 9 November 2012. [Applause.]
IsiZulu:
Ngonyaka wezi-2012, ikomidi lesiGungu esiPhezulu sikaZwelonke lokuBuyiselwa koMhlaba wabantu kubanikazi lavakashela amahhovisi ebhodi. Ikomidi elakuthola kuNgonyama Trust wukuthi imisebenzi yalo yona mihle kangangokuba kuthuthukiswe ilokishi laseMpumalanga kwakhiwa i-Eris Shopping Complex. Le miklamo yenzelwe ukuthuthukisa izindawo zasemakhaya. Lo msebenzi uzovulwa ngokusemthethweni ngomhlaka 6 kuNhlangulana 2013. [Ihlombe.] Lo mklamo uveze ukubambisana okukhulu phakathi kwabaholi bendabuko, nebhodi leNgonyama, omasipala nemboni ezimele. Ukuhlinzeka ngomhlaba, ngokubolekisa ngawo ukuze umphakathi uzithole uhlomula kule ntela ekhokhwa ngosomabhizinisi.
Enye yezimpumelelo esingazibala Somlomo kule zinto ezenziwe yiNgonyama, yizingxoxo zokubambisana eziqinisekisa ukuthi imiphakathi yendabuko iyazuza ekubolekweni komhlaba osetshenziswa ngosomabhizinisi. Engingakubala nje yilokhu: ukwakhiwa kwehhotela eJozini; Ukuhlanganisa uhulumeni, imboni ezimele kanye nenkampani i-Tongaat-Hulett neNgonyama Trust; ukuvuselela amandla omnotho osimeme; ukukhulisa izinga lempilo ephucukile kubantu basemakhaya; kanye nokuzibophezela kweBhodi leNgonyama Trust nebhange iThala Limited ekwakheleni abantu izindlu ezibiza kancane nokuthi abantu bakwazi ukuboleka imali engabasiza emakhaya.
English :
It is important to note that South Africa has to deal with the reversal of the legacy of a colonialism of a special type which is characterised by the antagonistic contradictions of class, race and patriarchal relations of power. These are major causes of social conflict. Apartheid colonialism had consequences on black communities because it ensured that the ownership and the distribution of wealth was conducted in a manner that excluded and neglected these communities. Therefore Ingonyama Trust Board as a land management agent, strives to ensure that the benefits from the land are accrued to the beneficiary traditional communities. These are the central issues facing economic transformation of our society. The depth of experience in communal land management by the Ingonyama Trust Board can provide very useful lessons for policy on communal tenure.
IsiZulu :
Somlomo nakuba zikhona izinto ezinhle ezenziwa ibhodi leNgonyama Trust akusho ukuthi azikho izingqinamba elibhekene nazo. Ngesikhathi ikomidi livakashele iBhodi leNgonyama Trust lasho ukuthi kunesivumelwano esasayindwa yi-Shell Garage. Ikomidi yatshelwa ukuthi i-Shell Garage yathola imvume yeminyaka engama-50 yokusebenzisa indawo ngezivumelwano ezaqala ngowe-1998 eziphela ngowezi-2038 ngezindleko ezibiza...[Kwaphela isikhathi.]
English :
The ANC supports the Budget Vote ...[Applause.]
Mr S Z NTAPANE / GG//LIM CHECKED ZLU// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 446
Ms P P XABA
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,04 Oct 2013,"Take 446 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-446] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
Mr S Z NTAPANE: Hon Chairperson ...
IsiXhosa:
...ndiyabulela.
English:
Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, Deputy Ministers present here, hon members, we were very happy to hear the announcement by the hon President Zuma in the 2013 state of the nation address, that government will reopen the lodgement of land claims, especially the accommodation of those who were dispossessed of their land prior 1913. As expected, this raised our people's expectations. It is therefore pleasing to hear the Minister telling us that the government has already approved the processes leading to that.
However, after scrutinising government's track record in processing land claims, we are left wondering whether it has the capacity to deal with new land claims, considering that it is still struggling to address the current backlog on outstanding land claims. The department has inadequate post-transfer farmer support programmes. Nowhere is this more evident than in the low number of land reform beneficiaries who are actively farming. In the majority of cases, where there is some agricultural activity many of the beneficiaries use only a portion of their land. In addition, an increasing number of farms have become white elephants in the post-transfer period. One such example is a farm in KwaZulu-Natal that used to produce 4 000 tons of bananas, which has now become a white elephant. That is not acceptable.
We have been receiving complaints from members of the public about the land reform programme. It seems there is a growing perception out there that the majority of land reform beneficiaries are males. We call on the department to look into this matter and ensure that its land reform programme is in line with gender equity policies. We hope that once completed the research report on the reopening of land claims will among others address these problems directly.
Let me take this opportunity to commend the department for the good job that it has done thus far. Well done, Mdu and your team. [Applause.] Faku, hon Trollip, I have said all what I wanted to say in our last meeting, that we are really going to miss your valuable contribution in the committee so much.
IsiXhosa:
Ubambe laa nto ke, Faku, bendiyithetha yokuba ungandiphazamisi kakhulu apho uya khona. Ndiyabulela. [Laughter.]
English:
The UDM supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): I now call upon the hon Groenewald. But you people have moved it about. Carry on, carry on. I'm sure the hon Mandela will not mind.
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 446
Mr S Z NTAPANE
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Chairperson,...
IsiXhosa:
mandithathe eli thuba lokuba ndibulele ndiza kunikezela intetho yam yanamhlanje kumama uNolusapho ondizalayo, ohleli phaya phezulu. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
English:
Hon Chairperson, Chief Whip, hon members of the House and our guests in the gallery, I was hoping to speak in the presence of the hon George who, unfortunately, is not in the House today.
IsiXhosa:
Uthe xa ebemi kule Ndlu wathi xa ebhekisa kuthi akazazi ukuba iinkosi zize kuthini apha, zigcwele kule Ndlu, kodwa umsebenzi ungaphandle. Sifuna ukuthi kuye, Mphathiswa, umsebenzi wakho owubonise ngeebhulorhu ngulo msebenzi owenziwa ziinkosi. Ukhona uNkosi uBambilizwe phaya phezulu, wakuLudondolo, ukhona uMama uNolusapho ondizalayo wakuMvezo, abaququzeleli bale bhulorho yakhiwe liSebe. IiNkosi ziyasebenza! [Kwaqhwatywa.] Siyakhawuleza ukuyilibala imbali negalelo leenkosi kule nkululeko sinayo namhlanje.
Phofu andimangali kuba ugxa wam apha, uBawo uTrollip, uyakhawuleza ukuzingomba isifuba esithi uyisemkhulu walwa esilwela le nkululeko. Kodwa, mntwana omhle, mandikukhumbuze ukuba uzalwa ngoobani na. OoTrollip bafika apha bezisettlers bahlala phaya phezu komlambo iReed, eCawa, kwifama ekuthiwa yiStanderweg. Bekufuneka imvelaphi yenu ube uyiqala apho. Bekufuneka ube uxelela le Ndlu ukuba nawufumana njani umhlaba.[Uwelewele.] Akuyithethi imbali yokuba nabulala oobani, nasusa oobani ukuze nibe ninomhlaba namhlanje. [Uwelewele.] Uyabona, into obungayazi ukhokho kakhokho wakho ...
Mrs S V KALYAN: Point of order Madam Chair, may I address you on a point of order. [Interjections.] The member at the podium has cast dispersions about the integrity of the hon Trollip by accusing him of stealing and killing to obtain land. I submit that that is unparliamentary and that the member should withdraw his remark. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Point of order! Point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): One minute, Chief Whip. We will look at the Hansard and see exactly what was said and report back to you. Yes, hon Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The point of order is that hon Trollip himself, said, we must tell the truth and Chief is telling the truth about the history of this country. So, the chief must be allowed to proceed along the same lines. He is telling us the truth. [Interjections.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson! Hon Chairperson! Will you ...
Mr R A P TROLLIP: I rise on a point of order! If you are going to tell the truth, you must tell the truth. The hon member has said that my forebears - I didn't tell which people were killed by my forebears. When? Now, if he wants to just make that allegation, then he must prove it. He must prove which forebears of mine killed which people.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon Trollip, as I have said, we will look at the Hansard and give a ruling. Please carry on, hon member.
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Mandiqhubeke!
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Chair, may I address you? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): We would like to look at Hansard and see exactly what was said.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson! I would very much like the debate to continue, but Madam, while you are looking at the Hansard, may I request that you ask the member at the podium to desist from any further such statements, as encouraged to, by the Chief Whip of the ANC. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: No censorship! No censorship!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Will you please be quiet on this matter? Let us ...
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson! On a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon members, hon members, please, will you stop screaming so I can address the speaker. [Interjections.] It's a problem if everybody makes noise and I cannot hear the speaker. Please, do not scream.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson! On a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Would you just hold on a moment, please. I can't take six points of order at the same time. Please desist from making personal remarks. [Interjections.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Chairperson, I really want you to also rule on the Chief Whip of the ANC who is deliberately contravening the rules of this House by speaking aloud. That is a direct contravention of the rules of this House. Secondly, he is raising points of order that he knows full well, or he should know by now, are no points of order. Will you please rule on that? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon Killian, I will decide whether it is a point of order or not. You do not have to tell me.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Chair, Cope cannot cope with the deliberations, so let's proceed!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Will you please continue? Hon Mandela, please continue. [Interjections.]
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Thank you, Chairperson. I think if we are to sit and make claims in this House, we must be careful of the truth coming out, because...
IsiXhosa :
uBawo uTrollip ...
English :
...hon Trollip thinks that he can utter words in this House and does not think that in the House there are people who would know who Charles Benjamin Trollip is; who William Trollip is; who Alfred James Trollip is, the grandfather of Senator A E Trollip and Justice W H Trollip. These things are known to us, Sir. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Therefore, I want to inform you that traditional leaders seated in this House were stripped of their land; their forefathers died in battles fighting for the dispossession of their land; their families were forced to leave their homes, amaTshawe, the Xhosas, were murdered in large numbers by the former Colonel John Graham. Today, we have named a town after him. Those Xhosas have been dispossessed of their land. Their people were killed. And today, we do not want to speak about that history! [Interjections.] Today, we do not want to speak about that history! We must not be selective of the history that we tell, but we must tell the history of how the people of South Africa were dispossessed of their land. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr R A P TROLLIP: Hon Chair, on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Will you please be quiet? [Interjections.] Yes, Mr Trollip, what is your point of order?
Mr R A P TROLLIP: May I speak? If we are going to have a history debate, then we must have a history debate, because to quote selectively, - why don't you tell us about iMfecane? Why don't you tell us about the dispossession and the murder of the people by Shaka? Why don't you tell us about all the murders in this country? Then we can have a comprehensive history.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: That is not a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): That is not a point of order. Will you please continue the debate? And I will plead with the floor on this side of the House not to get agitated.
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Hon members, on this side of the House, we will always want to shift the blame to the gallant sons of our country like Shaka. On this side of the House, we will always want to shift the blame to the people like Bambatha who fought in the struggle for liberation.
When this piece of legislation, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, Act 41 of 2003, was enacted, it was celebrated. This Act states that the state must respect, protect and promote the institution of traditional leadership in accordance with the dictates of democracy in South Africa. In expressing this message of recognition and respect for the institution of traditional leadership, our ANC-led government was echoing the wisdom of its forebears which was recently echoed by the President of the Republic, ...
IsiXhosa:
...uBaw' uNxamalala Zuma
English:
...during his address at this year's opening of the national house of traditional leaders, when he said:
"we are looking up to a modern day traditional leader to work with us as we navigate through the new challenges facing our people today, especially the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment. We are looking upon you, the descendants of the warriors and heroes of the wars against colonialism, to participate actively in building a new, caring, united, and nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous South Africa."
Some people in the House would not want to talk about it. I will tell you about the achievements of this department and what we are doing in areas where traditional leaders are based. You ought to be looking at yourself and where you come from, Sir. [Laughter.]
In Muyexe village, under Kgosi Muyexe, the department was able to deliver a four bedroomed house which was built for Ms Nene; jojo tanks were installed to enable the community to harvest rain water; a Thusong Service Centre was built to ensure that government services are offered closer to the people; a local women's co-operative at Musina garden project had an irrigation system installed and a toolshed for the borehole that was constructed.
In KwaDolo, in Msinga, under Nkosi Ngubane, 760 households, in ward 12, have access to electricity today, thanks to the ANC-led government. [Applause.] The department contributed R10 million to the project. Nkosi Ngoza has also championed the Tugela food garden where fields have been fenced and an irrigation system has been installed. Ndaya water scheme is also providing safe drinkable water to 800 households in the area of Msinga.
The Mvezo traditional council, represented by Mama Nolusapho, has been instrumental in the construction of the Nkosi Dalibhunga legacy bridge. This has brought about a paved access road from Nkosi Bambilizwe Sigcawu's village in Ludondolo to Mvezo Great Place, which is our former President Mandela's birth place. Both villages of Ludondolo have benefitted from the fencing of family household gardens to ensure food security and rid our people of the dependency on grants. The ANC-led government is delivering and bettering the lives of our people, contrary to what some members in the House on the left may say. The truth comes painfully and at a high cost. I say to you, our traditional leaders, ...
IsiXhosa:
...ziinkosi zelizwe lakowethu, hambani niye kukhusela inkululeko elilifa lenu. Hambani niye kumela ukukhusela inkululeko kaNkosi Luthuli. Hambani niye kuma nikhusele inkululeko kaNkosi Dalibhunga.
English:
Hon Trollip, ...
IsiXhosa:
... mhlobo wam, sifunde lukhulu apha kuwe xa sihleli kwiKomiti yeMicimbi yeSebe, kodwa ndifuna ukukuxelela namhlanje xa uhamba, naxa uhleli phaya efama ubukele, uze ukhumbule ukuba wayifumana njani le fama. [Uwelewele.] Uze ukhumbule into yokuba iinkosi ezilapha zithini ngomhlaba eziwunxanelweyo, eziwungxameleyo neziwufunayo. Siyi-ANC sithi kuwe, Mphathiswa, qhubani, umhlaba mawukhawuleze ubuyiselwe ebantwini. Kudala abantu benqwenela ukuba uphinde ube sezandleni zabo. Sidikiwe yinto yokuba xa sifuna umhlaba kule nkqubo yomthengi ozimisele ukuthenga nomthengisi ozimisele ukuthengisa [willing buyer – willing seller] liyanyuswa ixabiso. Xa sisithi siyasondela kulo liphinde linyuswe. Kufuneka sijonge ezinye iindlela zokubuyisela umhlaba ebantwini. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Mr P J GROENEWALD / NS / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 447
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,03 Jun 2013,"Take 447 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-447] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Before I call the hon Groenewald, will you please ... Order, please! Hon members ...
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Point of order, Chairperson ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): ... whilst it is best practice to give rulings in the Extended Public Committees, EPCs, immediately, I do need to look at the Hansard in terms of the remarks made by the hon Mandela. I will give the ruling in a meeting of the House. I now call on the hon Groenewald.
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order, please?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Yes.
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: During the speech of the hon Chief Mandela, one of the members of the opposition shouted at him, "You're a disgrace!" I would like to ask that you rule on whether that is parliamentary. Further, I also want to say that the hon Chief Mandela is a chief. When we address people in this House or outside of this House, surely we should also give them the respect that they deserve. [Interjections.] Traditional leaders are actually protected, and actually fall under the Constitution of our country, as well. I would like to ask you to rule on that.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Will you stop! I cannot hear the speaker!
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: House Chairperson, I am still on the floor. [Interjections.] I think the point that I am raising is that surely we should treat each other with respect and dignity in this House. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon members, hon members! I thought that in our new democracy, we had reached the point where we do respect each other and we address each other with respect. So, please, I request that all of us do that – on both sides of the House – so that we don't have these unnecessary points of order, and we can get on with the business of the House. I call upon ... yes, Mrs Kalyan?
Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Chair, I am still waiting to be recognised by you. [Interjections.] On the last point of order, the hon Schneemann is asking you to make a ruling that we respect the hon Mandela because he is a chief. Now, we are all equals in this House. [Interjections.] I say that that request is an unreasonable request. Furthermore, respect is given to those who earn it, and he hasn't earned respect.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): That is your point of view. Hon Groenewald, please carry on.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, just for the record, we share that point of view. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mnr P J GROENEWALD
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 447
Mrs J D KILIAN
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, hierdie is 'n sprekende voorbeeld waar die ANC-regering grondhervorming misbruik om emosies op te jaag om kiesers en stemme te werf. U speel met vuur, agb Minister. [Tussenwerpsels.] U is tegnies bankrot in beleid; u kan nie dienste lewer aan die mense nie. Nou moet u kom emosies opjaag oor grondhervorming.
Ek wil aan die agb Minister en die ANC sê dat ek 'n witman is. Ek is 'n Afrikaner, en ek is trots daarop. Ek vra nie verskoning vir die verlede nie. Ek is trots op my voorvaders se verlede, en ek is hier om te bly! U moet kennis neem. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek is nie skaam daarvoor nie. Ek wil verder gaan om vir u te sê dat die agb Minister ...
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Ms T V Tobias-Pokolo): Hon Chair ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Yes, hon member?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Ms T V Tobias-Pokolo): Will hon Groenewald take a question? I will place it in Afrikaans.
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, die agb lid kan nie intelligente vrae vra nie. Sy moet sit. Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê: Minister, u mislei die mense. U sê dat die oudit oor staatsgrond afgehandel is. Op 'n vraag in hierdie Parlement in 2011 gee u 'n amptelike antwoord in die Parlement. Daarin sê u dat die staat 32% van die grond besit. Dis wat u sê. Nou die dag, in Februarie, kom u en waai ook 'n papiertjie hier, ... [Tussenwerpsels.] ... en toe sê u skielik – dis reg! – maar die staat besit 22% van die grond. Nou wanneer het u gelieg, agb Minister? [Tussenwerpsels.] Was dit in 2011 of nou? Waar is die verslag?
Ek wil vir die Minister sê vandat hy van hierdie podium af geloop het tot by sy bank het die verslag skielik verdwyn, want niemand het dit nie. Joernaliste het dit nie; die agb lede het dit nie. Ek sê vir u dat u besig is om duim te suig. Dis wat u doen! Kom ons sê u het 22%. [Tussenwerpsels.] Kom ek sê vir u om daardie grond te versprei. Gee dit vir die mense. Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat hy gesê het 90% van die grondhervormingsprogramme 'n mislukking is. U gaan nou, en u gee konsepwetgewing wat gepubliseer is in die Staatskoerant. U wil nou eise oopstel tot 2018. Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat hy soveel onsekerheid in die landbougemeenskap skep dat hy voedselsekerheid in Suid-Afrika bedreig. Die boere kan nie behoorlik boer nie, want hulle weet nie of daar nog verdere eise ingestel gaan word nie. U skep onsekerheid.
Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê: U skep 'n tipiese Zimbabwe-situasie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Elke keer voor 'n verkiesing kom u en sê dis eintlik die wittes se skuld. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dis eintlik apartheid se skuld, so stem vir die ANC, want dan gaan dit met julle beter gaan. Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê om grond vir iemand te gee, maak daardie persoon nie ryk nie. As jy grond kry, moet jy uithaal en wys. Jy moet geld hê om die grond te kan ontwikkel, maar u wil vir die mense daar buite vertel dat u hul net 'n stukkie grond gee en dan is hulle ryk. U mislei uself; u mislei die mense van Suid-Afrika.
Agb Voorsitter, ek kom by die agb Trollip. Ek wil vir die agb lid baie dankie sê. Hy het in hierdie raad 'n voorbeeld gestel as 'n leier van die Amptelike Opposisie van waardigheid, van kundigheid, en ek wil vir u sê sy bydraes was altyd opbouend in belang van Suid-Afrika. Ek wil vir die agb lede vra hoe 'n mens 15 jaar se ondervinding kry. Ek wil vir die agb lid dankie sê. As 'n opposisie-lid, selfs as 'n parlementslid, kon ek darem altyd sê dat die Amptelike Opposisie se leier met waardigheid optree en kon ek gesê het dat ek my kon vereenselwig met die argumente wat gevoer is.
Ek weet nie wat is u interne gevegte nie. Ek stel nie belang daarin nie, maar ek wil net vir die agb lid sê dat hierdie Parlement armer is sonder u. Die DA is armer sonder u hier. Baie dankie. [Applous.]
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA /Mia / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 448
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,04 Oct 2013,"Take 448 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-448] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
Mr Z M D MANDELA
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Ministers, hon members and guests, the end of apartheid meant the end to restrictions on basic services, basic education, and employment for the black class. The democratically elected ANC government adopted the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, to provide the masses of South Africa, especially the poor and, previously disadvantaged, with basic services such as water, sanitation, housing, health and others.
The ANC also noted that poverty, unemployment and inequality are the major challenges that are facing our country. The three challenges must be the central focus of the ANC government to ensure that the basic needs of our society are addressed. Therefore, the department was relevant when initiating the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, which is the key thrust of the framework on the Integrated Development Programme of Rural Development, Land Reform and agrarian change.
The CRDP was aimed at transforming the social relations to improve the economic and social infrastructure, such as social amenities, facilities and ICT infrastructure. The CRDP is the implementation of Chapter 2 of the South African Constitution which stipulates the rights of the people.
Chairperson, water is a human right, but it was ignored by apartheid government. The Shortage of water is one of the challenges facing rural areas, as they were marginalised but only the few enjoyed those rights even if it was one man living on top of the mountain, he had access to water while thousands of people in rural areas were without water as development was racially based.
The women in rural areas used to carry buckets and walk long distances to fetch water from the rivers and streams, sharing water with animals, our shoulder bones were dislocated due to rowing, while others were having access to clean tap water. The ANC government initiated the CRDP to make water accessible to the rural people. A total 350 water rollers were delivered in the Eastern Cape. Water purification plant was completed at Empindweni in the Eastern Cape. A total of 166 water tanks were distributed in Eastern Cape.
What is it that the ANC is failing to do, if it is able to provide water to rural people, who were locked in reserves to fend for themselves without any basic services in all the provinces? Rural people were totally neglected, as they were shifted to bushes, where there were no toilets. This was the responsibility of the then government which failed because of their thinking that South Africa belongs to some and not to all the people. Rural people were using bushes to relieve themselves, which impacted negatively on their health, but through the ANC government, which is the government of all the people, the dignity of the previously disadvantaged was restored.
In KZN 903 households were provided with sanitation. Go to Vryheid you will see for yourself 780 VIP units that were built. Is that not a change? While we acknowledge the progress that is made by the ANC government; there is still more to be done. During apartheid some of the people in South Africa enjoyed the right to access electricity while thousands of people in rural areas were without electricity. That is why we have places like Donkerhoek and Dark City because those places were dark. There was no light except for the sun and the moonlight.
The ANC government came to relieve blacks from the bondage of using paraffin, wood and candles. Currently, most of the rural people have access to electricity through the CRDP. Go and see for yourself in Diyatalawa, the streets have got lights as in towns. In the Eastern Cape, Limpopo, Gauteng, Mpumalanga and North West solar lights were installed in rural households. Those places are no longer dark. There is an improvement made by the ANC; those areas will never be the same again. We appreciate the good work that is done by the department. The department must continue to improve the lives of the rural people. [Applause.]
There is progress made by the ANC in changing the lives of all, I am saying "all", not some of the African people although there is still more to be done, the ANC is on track. The shortage of skills in the country inhibits growth. Shortage of skills is the legacy of apartheid, as there were few schools, mostly mud schools, in rural areas, and those few were built in selected areas, as people were not consulted.
It is the ANC government that put the stop to all these sufferings by saying that "all people are equal and they have to be treated equally." In Mpumalanga, Mkhondo Local Municipality, there is a place called Emahashini, where learners were sharing the school with livestock. During the day it was a school, at night it was a livestock shed. The department is in the process of changing that situation. People must be patient as others are saying the horse of the ANC is running slowly. Yes, it can be true because the ANC is carrying loads of people, all the South Africans, as compared to the apartheid horse which carried few people. It was running fast to deliver the services to the minority. It's only the ANC that is the hope of the South African people. [Applause.]
The early childhood development, ECD, centres were built in Muyexe, Riemvasmaak, Msinga in Siyazama, Langelihle in Eastern Cape and the Masibambisane care centre and also here in the Western Cape, the Witzenburg Crèche and the Poplap Creche were constructed. The access to ECD centres will assist in building solid foundation of life by instilling the culture of learning from the early age. What a progress that has been made in Muyexe; there is a library, community hall, Internet facility, Post Office with banking facilities and satellite police station. The ANC has been able to do wonders in 19 years, which was difficult for other people to do it in 365 years. What a miracle, Muyexe will not be the same.
By building schools in rural areas the department is responding to the plight of rural people of high rate of illiteracy and lack of skills. During apartheid the health of our people was in danger because of the lack of services. Now we have health centres, emergency services centres in all rural areas where the RDP has started to be implemented. Go to Jabulani Bafazi area in Mkhondo in Mpumalanga, ambulances are accessible to the rural people. Two clinics were built in the Northern Cape. Clinics were built in Diyatalawa and Makgolokweng although there are still challenges in other areas but there is still improvement that has been done by the ANC.
Go and see for yourself, reduce oversight through newspapers. There is a saying that says: "so lieg soos 'n koerant." Don't depend on the newspapers, join the committee during oversight visits, and you will start to speak facts based on evidence. You will see wonders that those reserves that you created have become towns. The ANC keeps on doing great things. [Interjections.]
Most people were living in mud houses, which were not conducive to living; others were living in reed or grass houses. Chairperson, now rural people are living in dignified and decent houses. Through the CRDP 330 houses were built in Muyexe, 98 houses were built in Riemvasmaak, 10 concrete houses built in Vryheid, 50 houses were built and occupied in Diyatalawa.
Although there were some challenges with regards to the delay in the occupation of some of the houses, especially in Diyatalawa, which resulted to some of the houses being vandalised and the lack of continuous monitoring and service providers, this must be attended to. The houses built are not enough due to the apartheid backlog, but the ANC is on track to ensure better life for all South Africans. People must be patient.
IsiZulu:
Ukubekezela kuyakuphumelelisa.
English:
Previously people were not part of their development; they were just spectators as they were not consulted and could not participate in the development of their own areas. People were informed about their own needs. Therefore the Rural Development Policy seeks to build a social cohesion through leadership and community development, it promotes local leadership development and seeks to promote bottom up scheme of Integrated Rural Development.
Chairperson, the establishment of 464 Council of Stakeholders by March 2012, which represent various sectors of the communities, is aimed at making society active recipients of services and improve their participation in the development of their own areas. Through CRDP people are made players in their own development and not spectators, as they are the ones who identify community needs and projects and monitor the implementation of the projects.
The increase of 23 districts which were identified as CRDP sites to 30 districts as a plan to roll out CRDP in 160 wards by 2014, indicates that the ANC is taking the Integrated Rural Development seriously to make sure that development takes place in all the corners of South Africa. The role of technical committee is also appreciated.
Improving access to affordable and diverse food is one of the goals of rural development to be achieved by 2014. For the establishment of household, institutional and community gardens to improve food security by March 2012, 3258 gardens were established. The challenge is the use of consultants on services that can be performed by communities to save costs, like in Diyatalawa where a service provider was appointed to cultivate and plant the backyard gardens. Communities must no be given a fish, they must be taught how to catch a fish.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon member your time has expired.
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Chairperson, it is only the ANC that can change the life of the South African society. The vote for the ANC is the vote for the better life. We support the Budget. [Applause.]
Mr J J VAN DER LINDE / GG / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 449
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,01 Aug 2013,"Take 449 [National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,31 May 2013,"[Take-449] [National Assembly Chamber Main][NAC-Logger][nm].doc"
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA
Mr J J VAN DER LINDE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen ...
Afrikaans:
Vandag verteenwoordig my tweede deelname aan die begrotingsdebat van die Departement van Landelike Ontwikkeling en Grondhervorming, met 'n duidelike besef dat daar buitengewone geleenthede benodig word om die lig helderder te laat skyn met al die donkerte wat ons in landelike ontwikkeling en grondhervorming ervaar.
English:
The Minister has put the failure rate for land reform and recapitalisation at 90%. The targets set for land reform are not achievable, given the money available.
Afrikaans:
Eise vir befondsing sal heel moontlik verhoog omdat die regering geforseer sal word om meer hulpbronne aan die herkapitalisasie van projekte toe te ken.
English:
The department invested much more – that is, R1,8 billion – in the recapitalisation of 969 farms in 2010. This amount was for the recapitalisation of failing projects where close to a quarter of farms transferred through the land reform programme have shown no production since transfer to the new owners. The number of farms in need of recapitalisation in 2012 was 1 807.
Afrikaans:
Dis verder kommerwekkend om landswyd te sien hoe min van hierdie plase wat deur grondhervorming of restitusie bekom is, volhoubaar is. Plase lê onbenut en bates is gesteel.
English:
Farming infrastructure does not exist or has fallen apart. New farmers, especially emerging ones, need support. They need knowledge; they need skills. They need the necessary funds to run the farms in a sustainable way. The department has admitted that their current mentor or strategic partner programme is not working. A solution is needed if the situation is going to change. The implementation of the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, CRDP, has also been implemented to assist with sustainable land and rural development. The lack of training leads to funds being mismanaged.
In line with the centenary of the 1913 Natives' Land Act, and the land restitution process, we repeat our call for government to urgently ensure that people with claims to communally owned land are given security of tenure by the transfer of their deeds. This will assist small farmers who lack the funds to start production.
There is not yet any other policy or legislative framework to deal with the nullifying of the Communal Land Rights Act, Clara. The 2011 Green Paper on Land Reform lacks detail, even though the National Development Plan, NDP, has identified insufficient security of tenure for black farmers in communal areas as a major risk to agricultural expansion and the objective of building inclusive rural economies.
The Land Claims Commission received 79 696 claims by 1998. By January 2013, only 77 000 of these claims had been settled. More than 92% of claimants preferred financial compensation over land restoration. The total cost of the restitution programme to date has been R16 billion, of which R10 billion was used for land acquisition and R6 billion was spent on financial compensation.
Afrikaans:
Die regering kan steeds nie aandui watter en hoeveel eise afgehandel is of nog afgehandel moet word nie, waar die eise geleë is, wat die koste daaraan sal wees en hoe ver die stadium van afhandeling is.
English:
President Zuma announced in his 2013 state of the nation address that restitution claims would be reopened; also, that the government is looking at exceptions to the cut-off date to provide the Khoi and San communities to claim land, and where it relates to heritage sites and historical landmarks.
Afrikaans:
Ek is diep teleurgesteld vandag dat die agb Mandela die podium kom gebruik het om teen die agb Trollip se voorvaders uit te vaar. Ek is jammer om te sê sy eie oupa sou vandag skaam gewees het vir sy optrede hier. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.]
English:
The National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec, programme was launched by President Jacob Zuma in September 2010. [Time expired.]
Ms H F MATLANYANE / /Robyn/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 450
"National Assembly Chamber Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 Aug 2013,"Take 450[National Assembly Chamber Main].doc"
Mr J J VAN DER LINDE
Sepedi:
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Modulasetulo, Bouto ya Tekanyetšo ya lehono e tla matšatši a mmalwa fela pele ga mengwaga ye lekgolo ya Molao wa Naga wa 1913. Molao wo o bego o tloša bathobaso mo lefaseng la bona. Molao wo o bego o ba gatelela le go ba tšeela diruiwa tša bona le tšohle tšeo ba bego ba na le tšona. Re le ANC re thekga Boutu ya Tekanyetšo ya Kgoro ya Tlhabollo ya Dinagamagae le Kagoleswa ya Naga.
English:
We do that knowing fully well that for the rural poor there is light at the end of the tunnel. We also do that knowing fully that despite the challenges that we have, the rural poor are able to wake up and smell better life. This is something that has never been the case. It is only through this ANC-led government that our people have hope of a better life. We are not ashamed of our failures because always we are able to acknowledge where we go wrong.
Sepedi:
Pele ke tšwela pele, ke kgopela go bolela gore ke kwa bohloko - le ge e le gore ka bomadimabe, mohl Groenewald o tšwetše ka ntle. Go tsebega kudukudu gore seo a se bolelago gantši ga se ke se kwagala, ebile ga se gona. O nyaka fela go phethagatša polelo ya sekgowa yeo e re go: "status quo remains" [boemo bja ditaba ga se bja fetoga]. Nakong ye ntši o bolela a tlalelane. Ke be ke nyaka go mmotša ka segagabo ke re...
Afrikaans:
Meneer, hou op om so woedend te wees as u hier is. U moet oppas vir u hartkloppings.
English:
Hon Trollip, I just want to take a minute to say that I was expecting a very vibrant speech but I was not surprised because it came to my mind that since we started this process the opposition had their way of not talking about what the ANC-led government has done. Everybody who stood here talked negatively. But what I want to say is that I expected you to be the type of a leader I worked with in the committee. I expected you to show us that you are leaving us and your heart is painful.
I was expecting you to tell the truth by saying that it is only through the ANC-led government that at the end of the day we have a process where there is a land audit in place. This is for the first time. It has never happened. We are in the process of doing that. We are going to establish the land management commission which will deal exactly with what you are saying. We are going to have a land valuer general. We are dealing with that. You can hold on, madam. It's very interesting because you like claiming where you don't deserve.
Our former President, Nelson Mandela didn't want people to quote him whilst at the same time throwing stones and thorns to the ANC. You were supposed to say exactly what is supposed to be said.
Chairperson, I can't say much about my brother, hon Madisha. Unfortunately, he is not even part of the committee anymore. I appreciated him for coming to the committee but right now he is speaking about not coming to the committee and not participating at committee level. I'm asking myself how exactly my brother is. He is my brother and we grew up together in Atteridgeville. I know him as Mothipa, the name Willie is something else.
Sepedi:
... O sa le ngwana wa gešo, ke be ke duma gore o boe. Tsebo ye o bego o e tšweletša mo, re a e nyaka ka kua komiting, ga e tle.
Taba ya go amogwa lefase e bohloko kudu. Ke tšwa gaMasemola ka matswalo. Ge ke be ke tloga Polokwane bošego ke e ya gaMasemola, ke be ke tla ba ka feta gagešo ke sa bone gore ke fihlile. Gonabjale ka lebaka la ANC, dinagamagae ka bontši di na le mohlagase. Ka lebaka la mmušo wa go etwa pele ke ANC, badudi ba dinagamagaeng ba na le dipompo tša meetse. Re a dumela gore re sa na le ditlhohlo, efela re na le dipompo tša meetse.
Ge dikolo di tswaletšwe, ke be ke tšea bana ba ka ke ba iša go koko wa bona gaMasemola . Ba be ba tsoga ka mehla ba e ya nokeng, ba ipshina. Ba be ba sa tsebe gore meetse wona ao ba a gago ke wona ao digwagwa di ruthago ka gare ga wona, ke wona ao ka moswane koko wa bona a tla re go ba hlape meno ka wona. Ba ile ba nteletša mogala ba lla dikeledi ba re koko wa bona o ba hlapiša ka meetse ao digwagwa di ruthago ka gare ga wona. Gonabjale bana ba ka ba tseba gore ge ba ile kua gae, go na le meetse, ba bulela pompo bjale ka mang le mang. Ba kgona go nwa meetse a go hlweka.
English:
We are not going to be apologetic. Really, we are not going to be apologetic. Our focus is not going to be on what those that are negative say, but we are going to focus on ensuring that our rural people get their land back, they get the services that they deserve and they are able to have better life like any other person who is alive presently.
Sepedi:
Ka ge ke šetše ke boletše, go na le tshepo ya gore mmušo wa ANC o tla tliša dilo tšeo kamoka ga tšona. Bjale, ge ke e tla mo go tša National Youth Corps - re a tseba gore baswa ba kua magaeng ga ba na menyetla ya go hwetša tshedimošo go tšwa dikuranteng, dithelebišeneng le tše dingwe. Ke ka lebaka la kgoro ye, ge go ile gwa lemogwa gore go na le tlhokego ya tlhahlo ya maleba go bana ba dinagamagaeng. Se ke tlhohlo yeo e bego e le gona, efela ka lebaka la National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec, ba na le thekgo ya gore ba hwetše mešomo le tlhahlo gore le bona ba kgone gore ba tsoge ba na le tshepo ya bophelo letšatšing leo.
Ka lebaka la Narysec, go hlotšwe mešomo ye e ka ba go ye 8 000 ya baswa ba dinagamagaeng. Ka nako ye, ge re bolela, ba hwetša tlhahlo ya maleba yeo ba e nyakago gore ba re ge ba tsoga, le bona ba tsebe gore ba na le maikemišetšo a bophelo. Lenaneo le le godiša tlholo ya mešomo go baswa ba kua dinagamagaeng bao ba sa kgonego go hwetša dipapatšo tša dikuranta tša mafelelo a beke ye nngwe le ye nngwe; le go oketša tsebo le gore ge ba dutše ba hlahlwa, ba hwetše setsekana, ba tsebe go reka bupinyana ka mo gae gore le bona ba kgone go ba le tša go iša maleng.
Menyetla ya Narysec e tlišitše mešomo le bokgoni go baswa ba magaeng. Baswa ba ba šoma ka go tsinkela le go fatolla tshedimošo ya metse yeo e aparetšwego ke bohloki mo dileteng tšeo di lego gona mo Afrika-Borwa.
English:
Now I come to the challenges that are facing the department. I hope hon members are going to listen and listen carefully. The following remain challenges which we have engaged the department on and we feel confident that there will be progress going forward.
These include the tenure reform programme which will require clear performance indicators and meeting the deadline it has set for itself with regard to the programme of legislation as set out in the Green Paper on Land Reform. The rural development on tenure reform legislation expressed concerns that the strategic plan lacks information as to when the legislation would be completed and introduced to Parliament.
The capacity of the department to deliver on its mandate and achieve its target is hampered by the challenges or weaknesses at organisational level. The department's renewed focus to enhance on its capacity through implementation of human resource development strategy could improve the situation. Recapitalisation and development support for land reform on farmers and rural communities are the most crucial complement of agrarian transformation especially if it addresses the needs and aspirations of the intended beneficiaries.
We have poor monitoring of programmes to capitalise and develop the farms, especially the use of private sector partners, and mentors have the potential to undermine the intentions of this programme. Here they are looking at making profit only, but not aiming at empowering our people so that at the end of the day they are able to farm and produce food that is needed by the people of South African.
The Commission on Restitution of Land Rights will need to provide reliable statistics about the settlement which has been finalised, claims being settled in phases and those outstanding. This does not pose a challenge to restitution especially in view of commitment to reopen the lodgement of land claims.
Sepedi:
Ke a tseba gore re gata ba bangwe 'dicorns' ge re bolela ka mokgwa wo.
English:
The matter of payment of rates and taxes continues to be a source of conflict between the municipalities and the Ingonyama Trust Board which could potentially affect the financial position of the Ingonyama Trust Board when going to courts to challenge the position taken by the municipality. The omission of clear objective and verifiable indicator for the disbursement of funds or 90% of Ingonyama Trust Board income to traditional communities. The department should build capacity for monitoring and evaluation of land reform projects especially the recapitalisation and development programmes which seek to fulfil the intention of bringing all land reform under full production.
In conclusion, the essence of rural development is that people are not targets of development but rather the subject of their own development. It is also imperative that the infrustractural development projects and other development initiatives implemented by this department ensure that communities benefit directly. All the programmes of the department will be guided by the principles of equity, equality and allocation of resources in a gender responsive manner. The Rural Development and Land Reform is ultimately the realisation of vibrant, equitable and sustainable rural community and food security for all. This outcome is conceptualised as the vision of the department whose mandate is to facilitate implementation of the comprehensive and integrated programme of rural development as well as sustainable land reform
Sepedi:
Modulasetulo, mafelelong, go na le bophelo go batho bao ba dulago magaeng.
English:
Hon Trollip, we worked with you in the committee, we were colleagues and as a portfolio committee we became a family. We never had any problem when dealing with you. We were dealing with a person who was ready to contribute to the wellbeing of the South African people.
You just disappointed us but we enjoyed your contributions, we enjoyed being with you but at the end of the day we will bid you farewell wherever you are going and we are saying...
IsiZulu:
Hamba kahle Faku, hamba kahle mnumzane.
English:
...but remember the ANC is in government and it will govern. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM / GC (Eng)/kn (Sep)//Mn Sep/Zulu Gg/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 451
Ms H F MATLANYANE
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon members, before I call upon the Minister, hon Schneemann, I will just like to say a few words regarding Mr Trollip's departure. It is with sadness that, with your going, this debate has taken the turn that it did. I think that we are all members of this House and we all play our role, big or small. When one of us leaves this House, it is with some sadness because one part of this House is leaving and we don't know what it will be replaced with.
In the time that you have been here, you have always made a concrete, constructive input into the workings of this Parliament. We do appreciate it. Therefore, I feel quite sad that things and recriminations were left for today, the last day of your stay in this House.
With that, we wish you well wherever you go. God bless. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Friday, 31 May 2013 Take: 451
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig)
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chairperson, I join you in your words about hon Trollip. A maiden speech is like a farewell speech. In both instances you don't get rough. You have a lot of sympathy and so on and niceties. The hon Trollip started it all. He became very aggressive. I think that he has really made it difficult for all of us. I wish to thank all members who participated in the debate, both sides of the House. We drew insight from what you said. Thank you very much.
IsiXhosa:
Mhlekazi uTrollip ndicela uyeke ukuyithetha into yaseMuyexe eMusina ngathi yinto yayizolo. Le nto isemapoliseni ngoku kwaye ayikho into esingayenza ngalaa mntu kuba ubalekile waya eMelika. Laa mntu wayiba imali wemka, kwaye ngoku ayiselilo ityala lesebe ingelilo netyala lalaa mama, ngulaa mntu isela, umkile qha. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Kukho lo mba uhlupha kakhulu.
English:
It worries the members of the DA, particularly, this thing about the trust board - Ingonyama Trust. It worries them. Do you know why? Hon Chair, hon Trollip said that I lied here about the audit. A member of this House can't lie to this House. I repeat, here we are. The hon member is worried about Ingonyama Trust because if you look at KwaZulu-Natal in terms of land ownership, the balance between private and state is equal and it is because of the Ingonyama Trust. He is worried about that. All of them are worried about that because it is actually beginning to take land away from private hands to government hands and that is worrying the hon members. We have completed the audit. It is true. I knew the hon Trollip will not be quiet about it. Here it is again.
Last time we spoke about it, we said that it is 111 000 portions of land that we sent back for verification. It has been done. Here is it again, confirming exactly what we are saying. We know now.
IsiXhosa:
Siyayazi ngoku. Nalo mhlaba useMpuma Koloni athetha ngawo ozizizigidi ezi-3,5 zeehektare siyawazi.
English:
It has been surveyed.
IsiXhosa:
... ngowaseTranskei. Sizazi zonke iiBantustan ezazilapha, zezenu; zazenziwe nini.
English:
We could only understand and know what is happening because we have done the audit now. [Applause.] The next step that is going to follow now, according to the policy of the ANC, is to deal with land because we are starting to understand the basics. No government before the ANC ever conducted a land audit in South Africa. [Applause.] It is the first time and it is done by the government of the ANC ...[Interjections.] Yes, it is.
IsiXhosa:
Uza kuyifumana kwaye ...
English:
... it is going to worry you, by the way, when you get it. [Interjections.]
Regarding the issue about Minister Radebe, I can't answer for him. Government has agreed. The policy is coming through and you will have it. The Land Management Commission, in terms of our proposition to government, will be chaired by a serving judge. That is our proposal. We want it to be an institution of integrity to follow up on these things that relate to land ownership in South Africa. It is coming. Wait for it. It is coming to this House.
The hon Trollip says that there are no new farmers. I got a report just over a week ago from the KPMG. It talks about 1 296 farms that have been recapitalised and are productive. [Interjections.] Those are black farmers. Some of them are sitting there. Hon Trollip says that there are no new farmers. He is saying to this House that it must speak the truth and he was not telling the truth here.
Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to know if the Minister would take a question.
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Hon Chair, I admire the young man, the hon man. I admire him. He is going to be a good leader of the DA, not of South Africa. I will not take any questions. Three days ago the hon Trollip sent me an sms.
Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Hon Minister said that hon Trollip was not telling the truth in this House. He is deliberately inferring that hon Trollip has lied to this House and I would like you to rule whether this is parliamentary, and if not, could you please ask the Minister to withdraw.
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, let me refer to what hon Trollip said about me. He said, "You don't have a land audit." He said, "Don't tell lies to people here." That is what the hon Trollip said to me. I wrote it down. The hon members never rose to ask if it was parliamentary.
IsiXhosa:
Udliwa yinto yakhe ngoku!
English:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon member, will you please sit down. That is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Member, in this House, aspersions of lying should not be made. And it is not acceptable, no matter where it comes from. So, I am not taking this point of order.
Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it acceptable for a member to say that a hon member is not telling the truth. I just want it for precedence purposes. For precedence going forward, is it now the ruling of the House that you can say that a member was not telling the truth?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon Member, I didn't recognise you, so please take your seat.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, on a point of order: We have guests in this House that makes laws. Now if the DA behaves unlawfully in Parliament, behaves contrary to the rules of Parliament, how will the public respect the laws that we make in the House? Also, the Minister said that hon Trollip said something which is not true and that he was trying to show why that was not true. So, the hon Minister is correct in saying that hon Trollip was not telling the truth. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM: Chairperson, the hon Trollip said, "If you are honest, there are no new farmers." He implied that I might not be honest. He was saying it here. None of the members in this House, even this side, rose to ask whether he is implying that the Minister might not be honest. I am saying, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
A few days ago the hon Trollip sent me an sms about Mr Dickson in Bedford. We have extended that, hon Trollip, by a month. Thank you very much.
Lastly, regarding farmers who are feeding South Africa, who have now come down to 58 000, hon Madisha and hon Trollip make as if the government of the ANC is responsible. No, it is the workings of capital. That is what is happening. There is accumulation into fewer and fewer hands. There are policies that we are bringing about, and that is why there is this fracas in the House. It is because we are dealing with land and we are hitting the nerve.
We are going to change this skewed relations of ownership of land in the country. [Applause.] That is what we are going to do and we are not ashamed about it. The policy conference of the ANC agreed to this, the Mangaung conference has given us a very clear instruction to go and change the skewed land ownership patterns in South Africa, so that we can have black people taking control of the economy of the country. That is why this debate is as hot as it is today. It is dealing with land – the most emotive thing.
Afrikaans:
Die agb Groenewald was reg. Hy was reg. Hy het gesê dat ons nou ...
English:
We are just now whipping up emotions ...
Afrikaans:
... soos Zimbabwe. Ja.
English:
President Mugabe is the President of Zimbabwe. Here, we have President Zuma, but he says we are like him. He says we are like Zimbabwe. That is praise and an honour, by the way. [Applause.] What did you expect? Would you have been happier if he had said we were like the British colonialists who killed South Africans to take our land? Would that have been an honour? [Interjections.] Mugabe is reversing what the British did to the people of Zimbabwe. It is an honour. [Applause.]
The office of the Valuer-General, hon Sizani, has gone through the Cabinet system and that Bill is now going to come through this House. We will debate the matter here. Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
This question, which is the last point here, that the ANC government uses land as a motive for election. Of course, the ANC is elected. No government is elected. The ANC is elected. The ANC will go to the hustings with its policies and ask South Africans whether they like it. They will say that they like it. We govern.
You keep harping upon the fact that 90% of land has failed. That was 2009. We said 90% has failed and that is why we have a recapitalisation development programme. It was in 2009. I am standing here and I am saying 1 296 farms have now been recapitalised and I said by the end of December 2012 those farms had a net income of R126 million. So, what are you saying? Why do you keep on harping on something that is dead? It is because you think you can make capital on that to win votes. It is not going to work. [Interjections.]
Thank you very much for giving us the honour to present this budget policy speech here. We hope that the House will support us. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The Committee adjourned at 13:09.
Src/Nb(xh)/ END OF TAKE
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