Hansard: NA: Questions to the President
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 19 Jun 2013
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 119
WEDNESDAY, 19 JUNE 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____________
The House met at 15:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC - QUESTION 7
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 119
START OF DAY
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
Question 7:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, before I answer the question, I would just like to say a word on the importance of this day. One hundred years ago, on this day, the most notorious Land Act of 1913, passed by the then all-white Parliament of South Africa, came into operation. This Act was a culmination of the most gross injustice against the indigenous people of our land. It is an injustice that is the root cause of the poverty and inequalities that deface our country even to this day. I trust that every party represented in this House will add its voice to the condemnation of this, and unreservedly commit itself to joining hands with us in undoing this crime against our people. Thank you for allowing me to say these words. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, I now turn to Question 7. At this time of the 50th anniversary of the birth of the Organisation of African Unity/African Union, let me say that we regard the African Agenda as the cornerstone of our country's foreign policy. The focus of our African Agenda has been particularly on five areas: peace and security; participating in continental regional organisations; contributing to the fight against the underdevelopment of our continent; promoting democracy throughout Africa; and defending the interests of Africa in global affairs. As part of the continent, we are enjoined to promote all that is good about our continent, and use the natural and human resource strengths of Africa to build a better Africa which is peaceful, democratic, united and prosperous.
At the World Economic Forum in Cape Town we expressed our view of the kind of Africa we aspire to being in the next 50 years. We are building an Africa that is united, integrated and free from the scourge of poverty; an Africa that has conducive conditions for trade and investment; an Africa that will enable the creation of sustainable and decent jobs for our people, particularly the youth; an Africa that is industrialised and is aligned with strategic like-minded partners; and an Africa that can be competitive in the global market.
These aspirational intentions are clearly enshrined in Pan-Africanism and the African Renaissance. The chairperson of the AU Commission recently engaged with all sectors of our society across the continent in order to put together the vision of citizens of Africa of the type of continent we would like to see by the time the African Union, AU, celebrates its 100th anniversary. This view of citizens from the ground is captured in the AU vision for 2063.
The AU has created instruments to enable the achievement of these objectives, and South Africa participates fully in the work of these institutions. The creation of the continental African Peace and Security Architecture, the New Partnership for Africa's Development and the African Peer Review Mechanism are just some of the mechanisms that are taking us forward in promoting the African Agenda, especially in addressing Africa's security and economic challenges.
On building a prosperous Africa, South Africa advocates the integration of Africa's economies and increased intra-Africa trade as part of promoting an African free trade area.
Taking advantage of the fact that some of the world's fastest growing countries are African countries, we also continue to play a role in promoting infrastructure development to unlock intra-Africa trade. Currently South Africa chairs the AU Nepad Presidential Infrastructure Champion Initiative and also champions and supports the overarching AU Programme for Infrastructure Development in Africa. Our task is to champion the North-South Corridor, from Cape to Cairo, to achieve the dream of Kwame Nkrumah of infrastructure that connects the continent.
Pan-Africanism and the African Renaissance also inform our engagement with the world. Thus, at the G20, Brics, and the World Economic Forum, and in bilateral relations, we continue to promote Africa and positions that will take its development forward. It is for this reason that the fifth Brics Summit in Durban had an African Retreat component, to enable us as Africans to engage the Brics countries on matters of importance to the continent.
Most importantly, we need to promote Pan-Africanism as a way of life that informs our identity as Africans. This means we should look beyond economic development to our cultural and social identity and our frame of mind. Let us recall the lines of the African Union Anthem. It says:
Let us all unite and celebrate together
The victories won for our liberation
Let us dedicate ourselves to rise together
To defend our liberty and unity
O Sons and Daughters of Africa
Flesh of the Sun and Flesh of the Sky
Let us make Africa the Tree of Life
Let us all unite and sing together
To uphold the bonds that frame our destiny
Let us dedicate ourselves to fight together
For lasting peace and justice on earth
Let us all unite and toil together
To give the best we have to Africa
The cradle of mankind and fount of culture
Our pride and hope at break of dawn.
I am sure if we all learnt and sang the continental anthem, it would do our continent good, because it tells the story of who we are, and what we need to do together. I am saying this because not many of us at the southern tip of Africa sing this song, the continental anthem of the AU. It says a lot. It says who we are, how we define ourselves and what our task as citizens of the continent is. [Applause.]
When we sing the African Union anthem, we need to do so fully appreciating our being part of an independent Africa, and we need to work harder to achieve economic independence for Africa as a whole. This means promoting African unity and co-operation amongst the African nations, for we have one future. Then we will have achieved our freedom as the African people, from Cape to Cairo, and from Morocco to Madagascar. To achieve these goals, we fully support the African Union and play our part in building the Africa envisaged on the formation of the Organisation of African Unity. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mnu S J NJIKELANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 119
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu S J NJIKELANA: Nxamalala, Msholozi.
English:
I would like to ask the President to share with us further how the government intends mobilising the Brics partnership to support the successful implementation of the African Agenda, taking into account the legacy built in the past 50 years and the intention to mould Vision 2063 for Africa?
IsiZulu:
Nxamalala, njengoba bese ushilo empendulweni yakho ukuthi njengabaholi base-Africa niye nahlangana eThekwini eNgqungqutheleni ye-Brics, yilokho osekungithunuka kakhulu manje ngicela sike sizwe kuwe ukuthi ...
English:
... how can the Brics partnership help in the successful implementation of the African Agenda? I ask this because South Africa needs to appreciate that we as South Africans in particular need to appreciate the visionary prowess of the ANC government if one considers the history of the ANC in contributing to the founding of the OAU itself in 1963, and the role that it is expected this very ANC government will play in the formulation of Vision 2063 for Africa. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, certainly South Africans contributed through the ANC to the formation of the OAU. Those who are old enough will remember that there were some organisations that were talking about the challenges of the continent, one of them being the Pan-African Freedom Movement of East and Central Africa, Pafmeca, which, with the participation of South Africa and other countries in the region here, changed its name to Pan-African Freedom Movement for Eastern, Central and Southern Africa, Pafmecsa.
It was people belonging to a number of organisations that met to discuss the matter. We were there and we made a contribution. That, of course, would have been informed by the actual founders of the ANC, particularly in the person of Dr Pixley Ka Seme, who wrote an historic essay about the whole of Africa's future, including its economic future and its unity. To us as South Africans it is not a new thing that we are participating in efforts to ensure that Africa deals with its challenges. I am sure that those who have read that essay will realise that from the onset our views about Africa were very clear, and therefore that the Pan-Africanism that is being talked about today was part of it.
That is why in the relations that we form today, whether we are in the G20 or Brics or Ibsa, or whatever formation, uppermost in our minds is how these relationships will enhance our being, not just as a country but as a continent, and how these will contribute to the economic development of our continent.
Whenever we take part in these forums, we raise the issue of Africa and, in addition, raise our own bilateral issues. Therefore, when we became part of Brics, and when we began to look at Africa, we were very clear that our membership of Brics had to benefit the continent. When we were to host Brics in South Africa, to us this was an important occasion to actualise that thinking, particularly because Africa historically has been bypassed by many developments and disadvantaged by many. We have a history that I think we are all aware of, but we have reached a point where we feel that we must be part of reshaping the global economic landscape, whether politically or economically. To actualise that, we felt it was important that as the Brics was meeting in South Africa we had to involve African countries.
That is why we introduced the matter that on the sidelines of Brics we had to have the African Brics Retreat. Therefore, we specifically invited key leaders – in terms of what they did – on the continent. For example, we invited the chairperson of the AU Commission and the chairpersons of regional economies on the continent, as well as the head of Nepad, plus heads of state that we believed would make a contribution to that interaction. Indeed, they welcomed this enthusiastically, and it took place here. We had a very successful meeting with Brics leaders and African leaders.
For the first time the African leaders prepared a presentation to Brics – on behalf of the continent, and not on behalf of individual countries – and made a formidable case, which was responded to very positively by Brics. In fact, there are many, many processes that are going on between Brics and African countries to implement those agreements. When some of the Brics countries went back, they communicated that they were looking at the resolutions and how they were going to be implemented in so far as this new partnership that they had was concerned. We believe that that Brics interaction was absolutely crucial. For example, as we speak, some of the Brics countries who are part of the G20 have said that whenever they host the G20 they will also invite key African leaders to come and participate in those kinds of interactions. I think that indicates what we are talking about when we say we have needed to work together.
But what has been important in enabling us to succeed in this is the fact that African countries have moved away from seeing themselves as individual countries in many respects. They have accepted the fact that they have to work together as a continent. They have specific structures that they work with, but what has been important has been the realisation that without our working together in the way that I was describing here, so that there is trade within and among African countries, we cannot succeed in being a continent that can stand on its own.
This is no longer a debate. There has been agreement that we need to work together, and the process of integrating the economic regions has started. Three of these who have come together, with a huge population that is almost like half of the continent, and the work to try to bring together the African countries continues.
We have also realised that the borders that were created by colonialists in the form in which they are are not helping. The matter of how we ease border control has been discussed and agreed upon. Part of the programme – the massive infrastructure programme – addresses that issue very seriously.
I think the following applies when we speak for the first time as an African continent to other countries or partners – for example, we were in Japan just few weeks ago. We speak about ourselves and our infrastructure, and ask them to come and participate here, in other words, to do business with us. That tells the story that Vision 2063 is a vision that you as a unit are going to be working on from now on, as a continent that understands that our interests cannot be separated. We have to work together to ensure that we secure the continent and we are able to stand independent. We are able to develop. We are able to make Africa a continent that will take its place among other continents, as a continent that can offer something. That is what we are trying to do, and I think we are making good progress. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Let me just remind speakers that the time allowed for a supplementary question is one minute, and the Presiding Officer has the discretion regarding the length of time allowed to reply. I will be very strict, Mr President.
Mr M B SKOSANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 119
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M B SKOSANA: Hon Speaker, I would like to know if His Excellency, the President, and the government are aware of the existence and work of the African Diaspora Forum, which is currently confronting the manifestations of xenophobia. Will the government assist this forum in any way possible in its efforts to end xenophobia and bring peace and harmony among the African people?
Your Excellency, what all of us should be concerned about is that with xenophobia, regardless of the rationale behind it, the brutality thereof is no doubt sowing the seeds of intense resentment against South Africans in some African countries for generations to come. If we do not put a halt to this violation of human rights, nature's great law of compensation is bound to bring the brutish chickens of xenophobia home to roost. Then the lives of South Africans, their properties and investments in those affected African countries will be at serious risk. Faced with a legitimate need, I ask respectfully if the President would be willing to move a Deputy Minister horizontally to be fully responsible for this project, as one other critical component of the National Development Plan? I am saying "respectfully", Your Excellency, because I don't want to dictate. [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, yes, I think we are all aware of this particular organisation, but there are many that are at work in this regard, not just one or two.
There is a continental approach to this issue of the diaspora and the interaction with the diaspora. In fact, as one of the points that strengthen that kind of activity is the fact that the West Indies, as a collective of islands, have been given some status at the AU informally, and are to be regarded as a region that really constitutes a broader kind of diaspora outside, who are in charge of governments, etc. So we are working with them. In fact, in every other AU summit they participate as observers. At times they are given the platform to speak. So that issue is an issue that we are all talking about. You will also recall that we had a summit not long ago of the diaspora together with Africa, to discuss precisely those kinds of issues. That is broadly speaking.
On the specific issues that you are raising in regard to South Africa, I think the issue of xenophobia is one that everybody is very much aware of. Everybody is on the alert in that regard and it cannot be something that could get out of hand. If you look at the number of African foreigners in South Africa and make a comparison, you will see that the number is huge, and they are active in many respects.
However, the incidents that have tended to point to this issue are not that many. In fact, I think that at times there's a bit of an exaggeration, where people say that xenophobia is a big problem in South Africa. I think that is a bit of an exaggeration, although I am not saying it's not there, because, at times when incidents occur, it is seen, particularly when people react.
Foreigners are busy everywhere, in every corner of this country, and they are employed, and that feeling is not that big. If you take the size of the number of the foreigners that are in South Africa, you would say that the problem is huge.
There have been instances that people would have interpreted as xenophobia. But South Africans have not been one-sided on the issue. Even with the bigger incidents that took place a few years ago, many South Africans protected the foreigners. I had an opportunity to meet with them around Pretoria and on the East Rand. These South Africans were very clear, and some of them were saying, "Please don't touch the foreigners." I think even with the RAS incident that happened near Johannesburg there was a clear division. So you can't say that xenophobia is such a huge problem in South Africa, although we certainly need to look at it very carefully because of the size of the number of the foreigners that there are in South Africa.
I am sure that as a government we are doing everything we can to ensure that this issue is never a problem that is allowed to grow. We must make South Africans understand this, and we have been doing so. I think we should all play that part in order to ensure that xenophobia in our country is not something that we allow. I think all of us from all political parties should speak with one voice and say that we as South Africans are a warm people, and we receive people so that they can be with us. At some point they received us too, when we were in difficulties. We must therefore find a way to work together, particularly if you take what I was saying about the continent of Africa, and the countries in the continent. It is vitally important for us to bear in mind that the issue of xenophobia must never be allowed to get out of hand. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 119
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, let me first lend my voice, and that of my political party, the DA, to that of the hon President and those of all South Africans who condemn the passage and the enactment of the 1913 Native Land Act 100 years ago. We condemn, along with this Act, the raft of economic exclusion legislation which was designed to exclude black South Africans of many hues from equal economic participation in our country, and which condemned them to the status of second-class citizens in their own home. For our part, we are committed to redress, reconciliation, delivery and diversity, and our concerted effort is to reverse the legacy of racial inequality and economic exclusion on the basis of race.
If I may turn to the hon President's reply, Mr Speaker, one of the most effective ways to advance the African Agenda is through economic growth and job creation, but South Africa is being overtaken by its peers, like Kenya and Nigeria, as an entry point to the continental market despite our position as the continent's biggest economy. Given the fact that major investors like Fastjet and IBM are now moving their headquarters elsewhere on the continent, it's clear that, far from leading the African Agenda, we are actually lagging behind it.
Mr Speaker, does the President not agree that in order to reverse this trend and move our economy more towards being in step with our African peers, his government must do more to reform the South African economy by cutting red tape, reducing high communication costs, and making our labour markets more flexible? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I certainly appreciate the statement about the Land Act of 1913 that the Opposition have made. It is making a very good point and I think it's vitally important, because the ills of today emanated in the main from that Act. It is highly appreciated that we can speak with one voice on a matter that is a common problem to all of us. I would like to underline that.
With regard to the growth of the economy, I think there are many factors that lead to how economies move, how organised some economies are, compared to others, and what makes investors move to one area or the other?
I wouldn't say the South African economy has problems that mean people do not take part in it. I think investment is coming into South Africa, but it is no longer, as it was in history, concentrating on South Africa only. It is now seeing other countries as well.
But that cannot be seen as a negative thing for the economy. It must be seen in the context that I sketched when I was describing Africa, that we want the entire continent of Africa to grow economically. I don't think that we should have a problem with it if investors begin to spread their investment on the continent. In fact, that could be partly because of what I have just explained, that we are speaking with one voice, and therefore we are exposing all the countries and all the possibilities that exist there, and we are saying, here are the things that need to be looked at. Reports have been saying that a number of fast growing countries are in Africa. It means that there is investment. It takes into account the fact that the continent's efforts, what it is doing, are vitally important.
Of course, you could perhaps stand up and utter criticism regarding specific issues, but that is debatable. What would be the reason for doing that, having made the point that it is, in fact, a welcome development that investors are spreading out on the continent – including, by the way, investors from South Africa. The investors from South Africa are getting into the continent, which never happened before. That is good news, because it means we are going to be able to address the problems that face Africa.
The very fact that we are saying that there are too many foreigners here is because South Africa has been the only growth point and therefore more attractive to people coming here, and it is because there have been problems in their countries. Once investments go to every other country, even that trend is going to be arrested, because they will then have opportunities in their own countries.
So I don't think investment going to other countries is a big deal. I think we should appreciate that. We should applaud it. We should say, "Thank God, Africa as a whole is today being seen as a destination for investment and not just South Africa." That is how I would look at it.
As to other issues that people are looking at, I think they are matters we could debate, such whether South Africa's kind of regulations play a role. Again, there are various sides to the matter. Why? What is happening to the countries where they are making investments? Are those investments to the benefit of those countries? Are there regulations to ensure that investment benefits the local people? I think that is a different area that we could debate.
I think for now we should be saying that it is wonderful. Many investors in the world that we've talked to see South Africa as the gateway to Africa. Therefore, we agree that if we want to operate properly in Africa, South Africa has more developed infrastructure with which to do so. Many of them are putting their headquarters in South Africa in order to go to Africa. It's not a problem. I say it's not a negative trend. It is an important trend for the continent. That's how I view it. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 8
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 120
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 7
Question 8:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the African Capacity for Immediate Response to Crises was tabled for consideration by the African Union Commission at the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the African Union held in Addis Ababa last month.
The mechanism is viewed as necessary to correct the constant shortcomings of Africa in responding to crises as rapidly as warranted by situations such as that in Mali. This inability to respond adequately and urgently undermines Africa's principles, decisions and statutes, like the Lomé Declaration on Unconstitutional Changes of Government.
The future and role of this immediate mechanism will be determined as and when the African Standby Force's rapid deployment capacity has been operationalised. There is no fixed date as yet. The AU ministers of defence are working on the matter.
The general view of the AU member states is that this should be an African initiative. However, that matter is still being discussed by the AU and specific recommendations will be tabled at the right time. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 120
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, I thank the hon President for his reply. The ACDP is concerned that a decision has been made to establish what appears to be a duplicate structure, a parallel structure, which might also fail to fulfil its mandate, just like the rapid deployment capability of the African Standby Force did. We wonder whether the causes of the failure of the African Standby Force have been sufficiently addressed in order to ensure that they are not repeated.
We are also concerned that the AU budget will, as has been reported, not be used to fund the deployment of this rapid reaction force, and that instead individual countries supplying troops and equipment will be responsible for paying for the deployment.
What I want to know from the hon President is how many countries have made a commitment to supply troops and equipment whenever there is a need, because we know that many regions in our countries are poor and they will not be able to afford the heavy price tag of such deployments.
I also want to know what the hon President intends doing to ensure that the deployment of this military rapid reaction force does not become a financial burden to the South African taxpayers. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the discussions that have been taking place in the AU for a number of years now have been
on the need to establish a standby force. I think that at some point a decision was taken that we should start with the regions. So, many regions have established their standby forces. I think they are at the level of a brigade. Even SADC has been working on that. This follows on a need. As you know, Africa has these challenges, and we need to have a standby force. This has been so for a number of years.
The reality is that problems that have needed military intervention have been occurring on the continent while this debate has been going on, and while there has, for example, been the establishment of these regional standby forces as a process, a process that has in a sense been developing at a particular level. African countries are saying that while we have been discussing this matter and trying to find ways and means of dealing with it, there have been problems out there. As you know, the recent ones have been in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Mali, the Central African Republic, and so on. While this matter has been debated and discussed, the Somalia issue has been a problem for many years. So, whatever discussion we were having about the African Standby Force, it was not helping to deal with the concrete reality of where the challenges were.
Being aware of all this and that the process was going on, just before the last summit started the chiefs of the army, as well as the ministers of defence, met in Addis Ababa as part of the preparation to present a paper that was supposed to be adopted during the summit. They felt, however, that that paper was not good enough and they had to go back and work on it. This was a few weeks before the summit. This meant that the summit was not going to be able to address this issue and take a decision.
The problem is what you do in the meantime, because the problems are there. In fact, as we arrived in Addis Ababa, Niger, in addition to Mali, was attacked – its most important and sensitive installation! And we are still discussing the matter – we are not taking a decision. That is the reality. I'm leaving aside the other reasons why these countries are being destabilised in the manner in which they have been destabilised. The question that confronted the African Union was: What do we do? Whilst we were sitting there, we couldn't take a decision, for example, to send a standby force to Niger. We couldn't. Much as we would theoretically have wanted to do so, we couldn't.
When Mali was being attacked, the Economic Community of West African States, Ecowas, of which Mali is a member, met 10 times trying to discuss what to do, precisely because there is no capacity of this nature, the rapid response. They were not able to do anything. In 10 meetings they couldn't produce a single soldier to go and deal with the situation. That's the reality. That continued until the former colonial country, France, came in to save the government.
A question that African leaders were asking themselves was this: Until when will we stand and look on while Africa is being destabilised? Some of the leaders were saying that the process of colonisation of Africa was that we were attacked from all over, bit by bit, and were colonised. We could be faced with the same thing to undermine Africa now. Should we stand until we all disappear? These were the questions that leaders were faced with. Leaders then said that whilst people were working on the ideal kind of standby force for Africa, we should have something that can deal with this.
I must also mention one point, that the resources of the continent so far are being paid for by other people's taxpayers – those of Europe – and not by Africans. They have a nice name that they are called by, but I can't remember the name. It's called friends something. They give donations to the continent. They put conditions on their giving of the money. If you want to use their money, they ask what it is to be used for. If they don't like what you are using it for, they say they are sorry they cannot help there. Therefore, Africa remains helpless. In fact, Libya is a case in point. Part of the reason the AU could not go there was the fact that the donor said it couldn't use its money there. They wanted to give themselves time to bomb Libya out of existence.
The question that has been asked by the leaders is: Until when will this be? Also, we cannot depend on other people's money. Therefore, when the call was made by the AU Commission, a number of countries said that we needed something so that we could defend ourselves and we needed volunteers. Many countries volunteered and said that they were volunteering. In other words, these countries were not going to depend on the donor money. If there was a problem they would be able to move swiftly and finance their actions. This is because, if we don't do so, it will be financed by the taxpayers from across the seas and they will control us forever. Do we want to continue being controlled by other people, or do we want to be independent and stand on our own?
These are countries that said we can participate as a joint force – although not everybody – to move away from the debate that has been debated for years and to deal with the concrete issue of what we can do. So there are a number of countries that have said that they are ready to come together and put their efforts together, so that whenever there is a problem on this continent we can move.
This is partly because there is a suspicion that there is an agenda of using soldiers in many ways. In the past coup d'états used to be conducted by soldiers. The African Union took the position that this was not allowed - unconstitutional changes could not be allowed. They've changed. What used to be called mutiny is no longer mutiny. They say they are dissatisfied. They call themselves rebels. Those rebels become a ...
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon President. We have a number of other supplementary questions. With your permission I would really like to move on.
Mr D J MAYNIER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 120
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC:
Mr D J MAYNIER: Hon Speaker, thank you. Mr President you are the Commander in Chief of the SA National Defence Force. Now, because of the poor decisions taken by you, the Defence Force was deployed in the Central African Republic, CAR. Also, because of poor decisions taken by you, our soldiers were left dangling without the necessary equipment in a deadly firefight in the CAR. Ultimately, because of poor decisions taken by you, 15 of our soldiers died as a result of the deployment in the CAR. [Interjections.]
What happened in the CAR was an avoidable disaster and should never be allowed to happen again. Will the President therefore give us the assurance that the Defence Force will be properly equipped, properly trained and properly funded in the event that it is deployed as part of the new rapid reaction force under the auspices of the AU so that we can avoid a repeat of the CAR disaster.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, if you had allowed me to help members to understand, maybe there would have been no need for this follow-up question. But you have the right to rule.
Firstly, no poor decisions were taken on the matter of the Central African Republic. There were no poor decisions. Very proper procedures in regard to establishing relationships with countries were followed.
The fact of the matter is that our soldiers were there to do training. They were not there for a war. They were there to train the soldiers of that country. That was the arrangement. In that case you don't send well-armed people to go and fight. They are not going to fight. Their mission there is to train other people. They are not going to fight.
So you can't put it as if there were a military operation and poor decisions. That was never the case. The country got into its own problems, which resulted in the rebels' coming into being and fighting to take over the country.
In the process of that interaction among the Central African Republic people who were quarrelling, the region and the AU intervened to stop the fighting. They went to Libreville to get an agreement that the fighting must come to an end and they must handle the country together for a particular period. Indeed, that is what happened. Those who came recognised the agreement between South Africa and their country, and we continued to be there – we were ready to do the kind of task that we were going to do. We were not there for war.
They later quarrelled again and in the process the rebels advanced very quickly. In that process they found our unit, which was not there to fight. They walked in on it, they fought it, and we just fought to defend ourselves in those circumstances. I don't think we should put it as if there was war there and we sent our soldiers to go and fight, and therefore took poor decisions. No, not at all. It is important for me to clarify the issue.
When it comes to the decisions that are taken by the AU, when we take those decisions, we will take them absolutely appropriately, knowing fully well what it is that we will be doing. What will South Africa contribute when other countries are contributing, for example? This will be a discussed thing and we will know exactly what it is that we need to do. Therefore, we can assure South Africans that no wrong decision will be taken. We will take correct decisions in implementing the collective decisions of the AU. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr M S BOOI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 120
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M S BOOI: Thank you, hon Speaker and Comrade President. As the ANC and the military people we fully agree with you that you have not taken a poor decision. You have advanced what has been created, multilateralism. Academics of note have been very impressed by the role played by your strategic leadership. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order!
Mr M S BOOI: There has been quite good success in your contribution. The latest contribution that you have made, Comrade President, is in regard to Zimbabwe and how you have handled the situation there.
Now, what we are continuously asking you, Comrade President, is how you continue to give this type of leadership that you are providing on the African continent, which continuously helps to advance the agenda that has been set by the ANC in dealing with the African continent.
As you can hear, there is a feeling that we might want to replace our foreign policy vis-à-vis the military. Do you think we are going in that direction or do you think the way you are doing it, through these multilateral structures, will bring success? Can you give us more confidence, Comrade President? [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, certainly South Africa will continue to play a role on the continent, as I said earlier. We are on this continent and we understand the challenges of this continent, as other countries do. We take collective decisions to participate where South Africa is called upon to play a role.
We have been doing it continuously, either at the level of facilitation or in mediation. This was done a long time ago. Remember, when President Julius Nyerere passed on, the task of mediation in Burundi was given to President Mandela, which he did, and succeeded in bringing about peace and stability. This included sending our forces to help stabilise the country.
I think we will continue to do so at all material times for the sake of Africa. We have just outlined the fact that Africa suffered because we were not all there. We were attacked or undermined at different times in different parts of the continent and finally Africa was colonised. We are now saying that we are not going to allow any destabilisation. We are coming together to work together to ensure that we stop any activities that undermine Africa. So, we will be there at all material times. Wherever there are difficulties we will be there. We will continue to do so and make contributions to the structures. If it means militarily, it will be militarily as well, for the sake of the continent. We are not going to stop, but we are going to continue to do so. [Applause.]
It's a task that was given by the founders of the AU – to unite Africa to stand as one and to do everything. One of the tasks that the AU did was to unite behind us as we were fighting for our liberation and establish a liberation committee, of which we were one of the beneficiaries. This has been going on and you can't change it. We will continue to do so. We are now free and we can play a role as well to ensure that Africa is secure. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 120
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Your Excellency, I just want to ask two questions. The first question is this. When you were talking about the standby force, was any timeframe given to the regions regarding by when they should establish the standby force? That's my first question.
Through you, Mr Speaker, I am asking this question, Mr President, because you said that there were negotiations on one side while coup d'états and fights were starting on the other side, and so on and so forth. There are so many people involved that I'm little worried that people will negotiate on one side while others are brewing a fight on the other side, or that people are fighting because they want to create employment for their soldiers. That's how they do it – you fight because you want to employ your soldiers to do something somewhere.
So, was any timeframe given to you, that by a particular time you should have established the force, or could this be the reason why you therefore immediately came up with the rapid response force?
At the end of the day, how will this force be dismantled when the standby force takes off? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I do not remember timeframes during the discussions, which, as I say, have taken a number of years. I don't remember timeframes.
Secondly, on what would happen to the current rapid response force when the other force is established, I'm sure this matter will be discussed by the AU. It may look at a number of factors which need to be looked at, and which must then determine that this one must indeed cease to exist.
I'm saying this for the following reason. If, for example, you take into account how the standby force is supposed to be the resourced - which will be different from this one where countries that are volunteering will take care of what needs to be taken care of - who will take care of those ones? Will it be the AU? Does it have the necessary funds? Or will it be funded by the donors? Those are the matters that will be looked at. If the AU does not have the money and depends on the donors, and the donors are not happy with whatever operation it is, what will they say? These are matters that will be taken into account. Maybe at that time the AU will say that as countries we should budget for the standby force and therefore it will have the resources. The conclusion regarding the current one will then take a different direction. So that will be dependent, I think, on the level and time at which the decision is taken on the standby force as to what happens to the one that then exists. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 9
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 121
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 8
Question 9:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon member, it is because any member of the public within South Africa and beyond our borders is free to contact members of my Cabinet, the Executive, or the Public Service directly. This is in line with the ethos of our administration, which promotes an open and accessible government. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, hon Speaker. Mr Speaker, I understand and I appreciate that the name of the President, and the name of any President, is often name-dropped by those who want to appear close to him. I also appreciate that the President has friends outside of politics; we all have friends outside of politics and the President should be no different.
My question is this. How is it that a culture exists within the President's government that, when his name is mentioned by those who have a personal relationship with him, public officials are willing and ready to act unlawfully and use public money to advance private interests? Can the hon President tell this House how he is going to work towards ending this culture and this practice within his own government? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker, I take it that the incident that the hon member is referring to has been investigated and the report thereof is being looked at in Parliament. I am sure that whatever issues people are concerned about will be reflected in that report. If there are specific questions to be asked, I'm also sure that when hon members discuss these matters, they will be able to deal with them and satisfy themselves. The report was presented publicly and therefore it dealt with the issues. I do not want to deal with the issue of rumours around the report. I don't think that is my business. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr J J MCGLUWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 121
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, do you agree that your friendship with the Gupta family has a negative impact on the Presidency, as well as the country? Have you, as the President of this country, spoken to the Gupta family on the recent embarrassment, and regarding the direct contact with some of our Ministers? Are you, Mr President, willing to cut your ties with the Gupta family? [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. The hon member who asked the question earlier made a very clear statement that every human being has the right to be friends with whoever. We are not in a state that bans people because they are friends with certain others.
However, we are in a state where, if there are specific issues that have affected the interests of government or whatever, people will come back and say that these are the facts, which indicate that this has happened and therefore this is not good.
I do not think you can ask a person, just because there are these rumours around, whether they can therefore change what they are doing or whatever. We do not operate on rumours, whether the question concerns Ministers or whoever else. Those are rumours. I do not think you want Parliament to take decisions on the basis of rumours. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (Mrs M T Kubayi)
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 121
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The ACTING DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (Mrs M T Kubayi): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, I just want to check if we were informed about, or permission was requested by the Premier of the Western Cape for, her dinner with the Gupta family? If you had been informed, would you have had a problem with her meeting with the Guptas? I'm asking this in the light of the Opposition's hypocrisy in questioning who the Guptas call, while they themselves still have contact with them and they do not question that. Thank you, Mr President. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Well, I do not think I would have a problem with the premier's having a relationship with the Guptas. That is her own relationship and I do not know what the relationship is all about. I do not want to talk about rumours about them either. Whether there was a dinner, a relationship or whatever else, it is not my province. I have nothing to do with the fact that the premier has a relationship with whoever – it could be the Guptas or it could be everybody else – as it is not my problem. Therefore, I have absolutely no problem with the premier's having a relationship with the Guptas. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 121
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, the Western Cape is your province. However, it is not the point that I am raising.
Hon President, it is really unfortunate that every time the name of the Guptas pops, up your name is linked with it.
However, in this instance, I just want to find out from you whether you will instruct the National Treasury or any other institution of government to investigate the following. I was in Vrede at Krynaauwslust farm. The farm is about 4 400 ha and it has been given by the Free State government to Estina (Pty) Ltd, which is a company linked to the Guptas, for nothing, on a free lease. They are also going to get R500 million to run the farm, and on top of that they have the right to use the farm to get loans. If they cannot pay, the farm can be taken over by the bank. My question is very simple, are you prepared to instruct the National Treasury or any other investigation unit to investigate this particular procurement of the farm? The farm has been handed over to these people, the Guptas, who by the way have never been previously disadvantaged in this country. The premier cannot investigate because he is also involved. [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. You know, my name is dropped everywhere when anyone does something. I can tell you, even if there is a car accident – Zuma! I think this was ably put here by another hon member on a different occasion. The Zuma name emerges – it is always there and whether one is aware of it or not, it always comes up.
Now, you are saying that the name was dropped. I am not sure whether you said my name was dropped in that transaction. Oh, I see. All you are asking is whether we can ask people to investigate. I am sure that if you have the facts, you can just bring the facts so that people can do the investigation. I think it is as simple as that. If you think something wrong has been done and it therefore needs to be investigated, provide the information. Thank you very much, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 10
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 122
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 9
Question 10:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, there are many lessons that can be learnt from our intervention in Eldorado Park in the south of Johannesburg. The most important lesson is that communities must organise themselves to collectively stop the sale of drugs. Communities must work with the police and report wrongdoing by the police where there is any. Government's impact will be minimal, if communities do not participate actively in the fight against the scourge. Visible leadership from all spheres of government, working in partnership with local NGOs and functioning local drug action committees, is vital for effective action.
From the government side, the Interministerial Committee to Combat Alcohol and Substance Abuse has developed policies and actions aimed at reducing the supply of and demand for alcohol and drugs, and eradicating their abuse.
Using the National Drug Master Plan as a guide, we are strengthening prevention and awareness programmes to educate youth about the negative effects of alcohol and drug abuse. It is for this reason that the Youth Month theme for this year is, "Working together for youth development and a drug free South Africa".
On 26 June we will join the world in marking the International Day against Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking under the theme, "Make health your 'new high' in life, not drugs".
We must not lose the momentum gained in Eldorado Park. Early intervention programmes and services should also be put into place to assist parents, teachers, and caregivers to identify and help young people before they become addicted to drugs and alcohol.
The National Drug Master Plan 2013-2017 will be tabled in Cabinet soon. It outlines the roles of all spheres of government, nongovernmental organisations, and the business sector.
These roles are captured within three pillars of intervention, namely: supply reduction; demand reduction; and harm reduction.
The Central Drug Authority, provincial substance abuse forums and local drug action committees are to be strengthened to ensure effective functioning.
Each one of us has a role to play in combating the scourge of substance abuse. Eldorado Park has shown that if we stand together, we can defeat the scourge. This is a matter of life and death for our society. I expect every member of this House to actively support this national campaign. It is a scourge we have to overcome. It is a scourge we shall overcome! I thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! I have, hon members, been informed that the hon Y Botha will take charge of the supplementary question on behalf of the hon Tshwete.
Mrs Y R BOTHA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 122
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs Y R BOTHA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, in your Youth Day message to the nation, you stated that we must declare drug and alcohol abuse enemies of our freedom and our democracy, and you have reaffirmed that today in your reply. I would like to know, hon President: How will you ensure that the intervention programmes you have just mentioned do indeed have a positive impact, especially a long-lasting one in our affected communities?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I certainly believe that if we take the example of Eldorado Park, it is possible for us to ensure that this campaign takes root in all the places that are affected. This is particularly if you take the role played by the residents of Eldorado Park, who really initiated this matter, and the response by government at all levels. The programme there is working very, very successfully. I think that many drug lords are behind bars now and the programmes are unfolding. There are many things that we have taken a decision to do there and also move to other areas as well, not just around Johannesburg but nationally.
I had an opportunity to talk to the young people in two places on the eve of 16 June. In Soweto I think the view of the young people is that they want to participate in the campaign. I was also in the Vaal Triangle the same day. They, in fact, took a decision to initiate a campaign.
I think that if we were all talking with one voice and saying that this is a national challenge and a cancer that is eating our society, so that we need to hold hands and work together and make the young people themselves participate in the programme, we could succeed. We need to make it not just a political programme; it should be a social programme. It should be a programme that everybody participates in to ensure that we rid our society of this scourge.
I also had an opportunity to listen to the parents in Eldorado Park. They related very painful stories. As a country, I don't think that we can just look on and say this is something for government to handle. This is something for the entire society to hold hands on and deal with. I think we should do so! [Applause.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 122
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Hon Speaker, after 20 years of drug crisis in South Africa, we are very pleased indeed that the President is finally focusing on this issue. Unfortunately, the President's words ring hollow, given that since the Narcotics Bureau was disbanded along with all other specialised units, as a policy decision by the former Police Commissioner Selebi in 2004, drug-related crimes have increased exponentially, by 181%.
This is why the DA-run City of Cape Town established specialised Gang and Substance Abuse Units. However, it is essential that a designated antidrug unit within the SA Police Service be reinstated countrywide. Can the President tell this House why the government has failed to reopen the Narcotics Bureau, when it will be re-established, and, if it has been decided that it will not be re-established, why on earth not?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the drug situation in this country is not 19 or 20 years old. No! [Applause.] It has been there from time immemorial. It was there before. So, it is absolutely not correct to give an impression that we have had this problem only for 19 years. The problem has been in existence and it was not tackled in the past with the kind of enthusiasm that it is being tackled with now.
We are saying that we have taken a decision to address this issue. What we are expecting are suggestions, which should come from all of us. If, for example, the hon member says, "There was this unit and we are suggesting that maybe this unit should be revived," that is a suggestion which I think is a contribution. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: She has asked a question and she can't hear what I am saying because she is talking at the same time, this hon member! [Laughter.]
I am saying that what is important is the proposal that you are making because it must be taken into consideration and its pros and cons looked at – whether the suggestion can be taken on board and therefore whether we can work around it.
I am saying that we need to work together – all of us. This is what is affecting us. It is a matter, in my view, that we can't just oppose. We need to find solutions to it. If a proposal is made within that context, then why should the suggestion not be considered? She can't even hear! [Laughter.] Maye babo! [I give up].
Ms B D FERGUSON
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 122
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms B D FERGUSON: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, just this morning a lolly lounge in Coronationville Township in Johannesburg was raided. The community have been complaining about these lounges for a long time, and particularly about the hostel at the high school in this area.
We cannot rely on knee-jack reactions, such as those that we have seen in Eldorado Park. Apart from the ministerial team, is there a national task team that has been set up to develop short and long-term solutions? The National Drug Master Plan and the campaign that you speak of cannot become another talk shop.
Also, Mr President, given that the problem of drug trafficking and drug addiction is an international one, what measures are being put in place to control our porous borders against this scourge and to combat it? And, with whom in the international community are you liaising to establish best practice? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the reaction to Eldorado Park did not result from what was in the media. The parents wrote a letter to the President and described the situation very clearly. That is what made the President react. It was not the media.
As a result of what has happened at Eldorado Park, government is in the process of developing a national strategy, because we believe that this must be fought at the national level.
I believe that it is important for us, if we think that this is a problem, to say what it is that we are going to do, whether we are political parties or whatever, to help ensure that we deal with this issue. That is what I would expect, because, if we say that this is a problem, then it must be dealt with. This problem has been a leading issue in every sphere in the Western Cape. It has come late to other countries. "What is it?" This is what we should all be asking. How do we hold hands and forget about political differences in order to save our country and to save our future. I think that is what I would expect in a debate of this nature. Thank you very much! [Applause.]
Ms H N MAKHUBA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 122
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms H N MAKHUBA: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon President. My question is this. What has been done to ensure that the drug "nyaope" is classified as illegal? I ask this because, when communities actually report the suppliers of the drug to the police, the police find it difficult to arrest the suppliers as the drug is not yet classified as illegal.
I also want to know if there is a way in which we could have more rehabilitation centres built, especially in the rural areas, to help drug-addicted individuals, because the problem is also reaching there now. Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, if the drug that the hon member has just mentioned has not been classified, then I am sure that the process of doing so must be going on, because it is listed among the many drugs that are affecting people. If it has not been specifically classified, then we need to do so because it is listed as one of the drugs that is a problem.
I agree that we need more rehabilitation centres. That was part of the discussions emerging from Eldorado Park. Questions asked were about how many of them you could have, and whether you could have them in many places. Also, how long should people spend in the rehabilitation centres?
Again, I think that it is important that those who have ideas should come and contribute their ideas to solving the problems. We will be very open to that, because we are working with the communities, NGOs, government and everybody. We should all come together to say, "This is what we think needs to be done in order for us to deal with the matter."
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 11
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 123
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 10
Question 11:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the weaker than expected GDP data during the first three months of this year was heavily influenced by a number of sporadic factors that impacted negatively on growth.
Weak economic activity was primarily due to output losses in the manufacturing sector, which subtracted 1,2 percentage points from growth in the first quarter as a result of various supply-side disruptions. Hon members are also aware of the disruptions in the mining sector. Added to this are global economic factors that are beyond our control. A more liberal approach to product markets would not have avoided these negative developments.
Given the temporary nature of the disruptions, we may expect a rebound in manufacturing activity during the second quarter of this year. We are also working with labour and the mining sector to resolve problems in that sector. It is important to note that South Africa's product markets perform relatively well in international comparisons.
The World Economic Forum's Global Competitiveness Report for 2012-13 ranks South Africa 32nd out of 144 countries in terms of its goods market efficiency, performing well across a number of indicators. We rank sixth for the effectiveness of antimonopoly policy and in the top 40 in terms of the extent of market dominance. We rank 31st in the extent and effect of taxation, 29th in the number of procedures to start a business, 39th in the prevalence of trade barriers, and 32nd in buyer sophistication.
The National Development Plan highlights the importance of lowering the cost of doing business in order to improve competitiveness. This includes actions to reduce regulatory burdens and to promote entrepreneurship and small business.
Recently we have made progress with a range of measures that will influence product markets and competition. These include the following: the signing of section 6 of the Competition Amendment Act, Act 1 of 2009 with amendments that give the Competition Commission powers to conduct a market inquiry, search and seize powers, and powers to summon firms to present information; progress towards establishing special economic zones, which will include a range of incentives aimed at attracting investment, reducing red tape and increasing competitiveness; the SA Revenue Service customs modernisation programme, which has moved customs procedures from paper-based to electronic processes, a process that has enhanced the flow of goods, improved turnaround times, and reduced trading costs; and a more favourable tax environment for small businesses, as government has increased the R14 million turnover threshold for small business corporations to R20 million. These measures and others identified in the National Development Plan and other policy documents of government will help in creating a product market that is conducive to growth, investment, firm start-ups and expansion, and job creation.
Hon member, it is a misconception that our economic growth in the first quarter was heavily adversely affected by our country's labour regulations. The crisis in the agricultural sector emanated from unequal relationships between employers and employees and the high levels of poverty as opposed to our country's labour laws. The challenges in the mining sector, as we have explained before, are also not as a result of our labour regulations, and these are being attended to in discussions facilitated by government. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 123
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I thank the hon President for the response. In the question I did indicate that labour legislation was one of the factors, and not the only factor, that impacted on the low economic growth.
Mr President, during your reply to the debate on Vote 1 – The Presidency, you focused largely upon unrest and labour issues in the mining sector and their impact on the economy. This was justifiable, and is still justifiable given the vast contribution that the mining sector makes to our GDP. However, recent data that has been released suggests in regard to small and medium enterprises that these enterprises contribute about half of the total employment and more than 30% of the GDP.
Yet the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the Labour Relations Act sometimes impose regulations that constrain the growth of our SMME sector. In today's edition of the Business Day newspaper, we see data confirming that "the current slow economic growth is hurting job creation."
Government has a responsibility to ensure that everything should be done not to make the strong weaker but, importantly, to make the weak stronger. It is in this regard that my question to the President is: Do you not think, Your Excellency, that it is prudent to move swiftly to deregulate some of the existing labour constraints currently in place on small businesses and sole proprietorships? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I think the issue of small business has been discussed, and it continues to be discussed. This is because everyone agrees that in countries that have succeeded in addressing the question of economic growth, in the first instance, and also employment, small businesses have played a role.
However, I think it is important to look at South African history, because that has a lot to do with it. We are not like other countries, because we are dealing with an economy that was racially based and we have to change that paradigm in the main and deal with the issues.
We are also dealing with the kind of labour relations that are related to the economy from that point of view. There are many things, therefore, that you need to address as you address that question. For example, there are complaints at times with regard to the recognition that democracy has given to farm workers and domestic workers who in the past were not part of the labour force. We have to begin there and ask ourselves how we are going to address the issue of determining the basic salaries that must be paid to such people.
So, there have been a lot of issues where, if you do not look at them and consider the background – where we come from – you might look at them like you would at any other country and then wonder why South Africa is not doing what other countries are doing. It is not doing so, firstly, because you have to deracialise the economy – that has been one of the problems – whilst addressing other issues. If you look at labour, there were situations where certain workers were not recognised as workers!
So, I am saying that we have a complex kind of economy and a complex kind of society that we have to deal with. For example, as you have mentioned, you cannot say that for us to correct the economy we must make the strong weaker. It is the other way round – let us make the weak stronger. You cannot then say that because of the structure of the economy those who benefited from labour relations must relax the laws in order to accept the ones who were disadvantaged. I think that argument applies here again.
How then do we deal with this? This is a tough kind of challenge that we all face in regard to our economy. I think that relatively speaking we have done very well to address those unique challenges that other countries have never had. No country ever had an institutionalised racial policy which impacted very seriously on the poor, on the majority, including in education and everything else.
So, these are the issues we are dealing with and, taking that into consideration, we are making progress. We are all aware of these kinds of challenges. We are trying our level best to ensure that this economy grows and it is inclusive. Thank you. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 123
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, it is clear that labour unrest is a major cause of the breakdown in investor confidence in our economy and our poor GDP growth performance, which collapsed to 0,9% last month.
Because of lost productivity and continuing unrest, companies have been forced to shed thousands and thousands of jobs. Yesterday economists at Japan's Nomura Bank warned that up to 145 000 jobs and 60% of South Africa's platinum output could be at risk in the coming years amid labour unrest in the sector.
Our country needs decisive leadership at this time of economic hardship. We are in desperate need of policy stability and immediate reform in order to stimulate growth. Democratising the labour relations framework and, in particular, the requirement of balloting before a strike could go a long way towards solving the underlying causes of the labour crisis.
Mr Speaker, is the hon President aware that his own party in Parliament is working against his government's efforts to help solve the labour crisis by rejecting the Department of Labour's proposal to conduct a ballot among workers before a strike? Does the hon President support the principle of the workers' right to take part in a ballot before a strike? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, firstly, I think there is leadership in this country, very clear leadership. There is also certainty on policy. There is no uncertainty on economic policy, and I would not accept the fact that there is no certainty, as there is certainty. This does not deny people the right to have their own views on the economy, as economists will always have different views on matters. However, I think it is not correct to say that there is no certainty on policy; there is certainty on policy.
As far as the issue of labour is concerned, there are matters that affect labour relations, and there are things that had been agreed upon at the bargaining level, things that the workers are grappling with. Because of the issues on which the workers have not agreed, particularly with the emergence of new unions, with new kinds of situations developing, about which they feel very strongly, government has asked the Deputy President to interact with the workers, as well as the management of the mining sector, to discuss these matters. I think they are moving very close to agreeing on the matters that have to be addressed in dealing with the problems at the mining level.
Certainly, workers must have the right to participate in the manner that has been agreed upon. There are agreements that were made long time ago and people have acted according to them without any difficulty. I think the difficulty has come in the manner in which the recent problems in the mines have emerged. This has a lot of different elements in it which influence the manner in which the interaction has been going on. We are saying it is important that all players, all stakeholders, come together to discuss and agree on what it is best to do. I think they need to be given a chance.
Of course, in that process Parliament can debate matters in different ways and have different views on how they think the matter should be resolved. Those are parliamentary processes that are going on. I think in a lot of the processes people are participating in the actual things that need to be done, and not just debates. Our Deputy President has been doing very well in this respect, representing government. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 123
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, we have seen headlines about the economy recently, and it does not make good reading. We do not have control over global economic conditions, so it is important to focus on the stuff we can influence – and especially you. Perceptions investors have about us now come into play.
South Africa faces a host of its own issues, especially with its twin deficits. In April 2013 the deficit was R41 billion – about double the forecast. The April trade deficit was R15 billion, double that of March. Foreigners are now net sellers of our equities, making the currency volatile.
It is not your speeches, Mr President, but because of that, your behaviour will be closely watched. Do you not think that it is time to send a strong message that you are on the side of saving expenditure, and time that in the next reshuffle of your Cabinet you shrink it to the levels of your predecessors? With almost 60 Ministers and Deputy Ministers, you are harbouring one of the largest Cabinets in the world. If you do shrink it, investors will take you more seriously.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the hon member is putting his own views on the matter – absolutely correct as an opposition member! For example, he is saying that some headlines do not read very well. Who are responsible for those headlines? Is it not the manner in which the opposition raise matters? [Interjections.] So there are many things involved, and I am saying that you can come at it from any angle.
I think we have done very well. I think we are dealing with matters very objectively and we are in a better position to explain whatever needs to be explained, whatever makes bad reading as a result of the statements that people make. We are able to indicate why our government is what it is and what it is doing.
I can tell you that generally people are saying that we are doing very well. I have just come back from Japan. They are full of praise for South Africa, stating that South Africa is doing very well. These are key investors. [Applause.] So, the perception that is being thrown around, that those investors are worried, is not true at all. We meet with them all the time. [Interjections.]
All I am saying is that I would be very happy if all of us were conscious of the headlines and therefore know exactly what we to say for the betterment of the country. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B A RADEBE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 123
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, hon Speaker. Comrade President, the hon Singh's question presupposes that liberal labour and market policies are an effective tool for achieving higher economic growth rates, whereas we all know that those liberal policies precipitated the global economic crisis of 2008 and 2009.
Will the President share with the House why the 53rd National Conference of the governing party, the ANC, reaffirmed the creation of a mixed economy by a capable developmental state as the policy to attain higher economic growth rates and a better life for all? Will the President also reconfirm his government's commitment to labour rights as human rights, like all the property rights? Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, certainly the President will confirm those policies – there is no doubt about that!
The issue here is really, as I have said, that economies look at things from whatever angle they are at. The developmental state and policies talk to an approach where they deal with inclusive growth of the economy, and that would not be an economy that does not take responsibility for the poor. How do you deal with that issue? For example, you could grow the economy without dealing with the poor, and so on, but that would not solve the problem. You would remain with the problem.
Our policies are well balanced in regard to dealing with the economy of our country and with the challenges, some of which are historic. How do you correct them? These are policies that deal with that. Therefore, I confirm the policies of the ruling party as absolutely correct. No one could argue against them; whoever argues against them does not understand the South African setting. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 12
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 124
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC – QUESTION 11
Question 12:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, yes, the Presidency was approached by officials from the Libyan government regarding reported sums of money allegedly deposited on behalf of the late Col Muammar Gaddafi and held by banking institutions in South Africa. They were referred to the Ministry of Finance.
On 4 June, Minister Pravin Gordhan met Mr Usama al Abid, the Minister in the Office of the Libyan Prime Minister. The two delegations agreed that the repatriation of Libyan funds and assets from South Africa would be handled in terms of United Nations resolutions and protocols. The decision was informed by the fact that the government of Libya established a single body in 2012 to co-ordinate the repatriation of assets to Libya, in line with United Nations protocols. I thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 124
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Speaker, I thank the President for his response. My follow-up question is in relation to the "yes" part. It is widely reported that about five meetings took place on this issue of assets that belonged to the late Col Gaddafi. What is not clear is this. There seem to be two factions. Some are saying these are assets that belonged to the late colonel, and the other view is that they did not belong to him, but to the state. Now perhaps you could shed some light on who they actually belong to.
The last point is related to reports that the head of security of the ANC party has been involved in this discussion about the recovery of money. What is not clear is the connection between the ANC party and the recovery of the money. Could you shed some light on that, because we believe it is a state-to-state issue.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, with regard to the last part, I do not know. It has not come to my ears that some ANC head of security was involved. So, I do not know about it.
With regard to whether the money belonged to Col Gaddafi or the state, I do not know that either. I do not know how this money came here or who the owner of it is. The only thing I have answered is this – Libyan officials came here asking for what they knew was here, and apparently ... [Interjections.] Yes, it is, and therefore there was discussion of the arrangements for how it had to be taken back. [Interjections.] As to whether it belongs to an individual or the state, I do not know. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I have on my list the following list of speakers: the hon C C September, N J J Koornhof and the hon M Hlengwa. There are only four speakers, not five. Four. Proceed, Mr President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The question has not been asked, as yet. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Oh! Please do ask the question. [Laughter.]
Me C C SEPTEMBER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 124
The SPEAKER
Afrikaans:
Me C C SEPTEMBER: Dankie, agb Speaker en agb President. Die ANC is trots daarop dat die ANC ...
English:
The SPEAKER: Shall we give the President an opportunity to use his machine?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Absolutely. [Laughter.]
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Umshini wam ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Afrikaans:
Dankie, agb Speaker. Dankie, agb President. Die ANC is trots daarop dat die ANC-beheerde regering internasionale sake binne die breë raamwerk van multilaterale instansies aanspreek. Die ANC is ook trots daarop dat in Suid-Afrika ons altyd by die integriteit van ons finansiële regulasies en die reguleringsraamwerk hou. As daar 'n behoefte is of 'n vraag bestaan vir 'n ondersoek na die Libiese bates, sal die agb President die moontlikheid oorweeg dat die Parlement die uitslag van so 'n ondersoek ontvang as dit nodig is? Ek dank u.
English:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, certainly our financial institutions are well regulated. That is the reason why no one can come and say there is money from their country here and we will not know where it is. Things have been properly regulated and I think we should be happy that South Africa cannot be abused in that way.
With regard to this specific case we are talking about – or any other case – I believe that once that government links up with ours, we will be able to discuss the matter and resolve it.
Let me refer to a situation where the matter is not resolvable. I am sure that if there is a need for Parliament to participate, we shall not even be certain if that is a thing we can start with. Even if Parliament participated, I do not think it could do better than the financial institutions. For example, the Treasury or the Minister of Finance or the Reserve Bank knows about every penny that moves. I think they are instruments that we could utilise as a country to find out anything about it and what happened, if it was a matter between one country and South Africa. It is a different matter if there are funds in the country where oversight and accountability need to be exercised. I think government has always agreed that Parliament must play a role and, in that case, Parliament will certainly play its role. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 124
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, we all remember that the late Col Gaddafi was upset at the way he was announced at your inauguration and he made a second entrance. Why is his money here? Then, on a lighter note, Mr President, was your name dropped in Libya? [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, hon Speaker, I do not know whether my name was dropped in Libya! I do not know.
Secondly, I do not know why Gaddafi's money or Libyan money is here. I do not know. I was never involved in whatever caused that money to come here, so I do not know that either. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr M HLENGWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 19 June 2013 Take: 124
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Hon President, at the centre of this whole controversy is the name of a certain Bashir Saleh, who has been touted as the Gaddafi banker. What I am seeking from the President in connection with what has been reported is this. Is he willing to launch an investigation into this matter ... [Interjections.] ... as this gentleman has been spotted in South Africa – at the ANC centenary gala dinner and also at the Brics summit in Durban. What is of concern is that this gentleman is on Interpol's wanted list! With South Africa being a signatory to Interpol, how did he slip through the cracks in order to be in the country and move freely in and out? [Interjections.]
Is the President willing to launch an investigation into that particular aspect so that we can get to the bottom of how these monies actually got into the country? [Interjections.] I say that it is one thing for us to offer congratulations in regard to the fact that the money has gone back.
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
Mr M HLENGWA: But how did the money get here to begin with? [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I am not certain that South Africa has the resources, each time there is a mention of somebody, or there are allegations that somebody is a criminal or is wanted, to take it upon itself to investigate. I do not think we can work like that. I do not think so.
Whether this man was a Gaddafi man or whether he was involved with the money, I do not know. However, I think it would be funny for South Africa, whenever there is a mention of someone that is wanted by the police internationally, to stop other things and investigate this person. We do not even know why he is wanted. [Interjections.] I do not know what type of government we would be. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: If a country said there was somebody who was wanted, that he did x, y and z, that he was in South Africa and they were asking the South African authorities to help them deal with the matter, that would be a different matter. That is co-operation and there are bilateral agreements between the countries involved.
However, if it is just mentioned by the media or whoever that so-and-so who is going in and out is alleged to be x, y and z, and you then stop everything to investigate, well, I do not think that governments work in that way. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon President. Hon members, that concludes questions to the President. [Applause.] You will have noticed that we have exceeded the question time, but I was informed that parties had agreed to allow the President to finish answering all the questions. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you all and to wish you all a very good evening.
The House adjourned at 17:08.
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents