Hansard: NCOP: Debate on Vote No 7 – Public Works
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 08 May 2013
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
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WEDNESDAY, 8 MAY 2013
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
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Members of the Extended Public Committee met in Committee Room E249 at 10:06.
House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members! May I request all hon members and visitors in the gallery to ensure that your cellphones are switched off. All the Rules of the National Assembly do apply. I also want to remind the visitors in the gallery that you are here to observe proceedings and not to participate in those proceedings. Those in the House who are allowed to participate are the hon members. They are well prepared for these Budget Votes so let's not steal their thunder in terms of participation.
I also wish to indicate that all speakers are invited to the podium in front to deliver their speeches from there. There is also a clock next to the microphone that will indicate the time that you have available to complete your input into this Budget Vote. The Secretary will read the Order.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 1
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick)
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 7 – Public Works:
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson, hon Members of Cabinet, hon MECs, hon Chairperson and members of the portfolio committee, hon Members of Parliament, let me also recognise in the gallery the presence of the chairpersons and senior management of the public entities, the director-general and senior management of the department, representatives from the Department of Public Works, Young Professionals Training Scheme, beneficiaries of the Extended Public Works Programme, the members of my family, in particular my wife, welcome to you all.
In the time available, I want to present the Budget Vote for the 2013-2014 financial year, account for what we have done as a department over the last year and, most importantly, convince this House that the Department of Public Works is serious about turning itself around, and that we have a plan to take it forward.
The departmental budget allocation has been reduced by 20% from R7,7 billion in 2012-13 to R6,2 billion in 2013-14. The decrease is attributable to the following: the phasing out of the devolution of the property rates grant to provinces; Cabinet-approved budget reductions of R1,5 billion over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period; and the shifting of R290 million to the Department of Home Affairs for border management, in line with the devolution of budgets to line departments. The department's budget reflects the government's priorities and the department's efforts to address in particular Outcomes 4, 8 and 12.
In relation to the National Development Plan, NDP, my department and its branches are currently aligning their activities to support many of the identified goals of the NDP.
The EPWP remains an effective part of the government's response to the triple challenge of poverty, unemployment and inequality. Our initial target in the second phase of the EPWP for the period 2009 to 2014 was to create 4,5 million work opportunities. This has now been increased to nearly 5 million new work opportunities, with a special emphasis on unemployed youth and women. As part of this, approximately 8 000 youth will be recruited for artisan training to enable them to be employed by the national and provincial Departments of Public Works.
The EPWP programme is making a real difference to people's lives. Indeed, earlier this week, together with the Deputy Minister, Jeremy Cronin, I visited the Lentegeur Police Station in Mitchells Plain - a state-of-the-art project of Public Works. We were thronged by community members who impressed upon us the positive impact of the EPWP on individuals and the community.
I am pleased to announce that the problem of underspending on the EPWP incentive grant, which amounted to R358 million in 2011-2012, has been eliminated in the 2012-2013 financial year. None of this would have been possible without the active partnership, co-ordination and participation of municipalities, provinces and nonprofit nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, community-based and faith-based organisations.
As we move into phase three of the EPWP, we have to ensure that all these stakeholders are on board, that they are supported where necessary and that, collectively, we further upscale the EPWP programme. Amongst others, we need to investigate an expanded role for the EPWP in the roll-out of the strategic infrastructure project, SIP, and to ensure that collectively, as government departments and state-owned enterprises, we utilise the EPWP and labour-intensive methodologies to maximise job creation.
With regard to capital projects, during the course of 2012-2013, some 214 projects were completed. These included high-profile projects for the Departments of Justice and Correctional Services, as well as the SA Police Service, SAPS, and the SA National Defence Force, SANDF.
Capital projects created approximately 18 815 jobs during 2012-2013. The target for the 2013-2014 financial year is approximately 40 000 jobs. Some 300 capital projects will be completed by the end of March 2014. This includes the Matola Raid Monument in Mozambique.
The erosion of the core professional services of the department has impacted negatively on our ability to deliver on the mandate. The following mitigating measures have been adopted: The department has secured a budget appropriation of R66 million to fill 88 of the 219 vacant and unfunded core professional positions.
Joint professional teams have been created to support smaller regional offices, and to work with major clients; and we are currently reviewing training programmes for young professionals, technicians and artisans as part of our vision to rebuild state capacity in the built environment.
Working through the EPWP, together with the Eastern Cape provincial department of public works and roads, and the department of defence, we are rolling out low-cost bridges, initially in the Eastern Cape, before extending the programme to other provinces. These bridges, as well as providing safe river crossings during rainy seasons, especially for schoolchildren, also improve access and social and economic mobility for entire communities.
With regard to Asset Investment Management, the department's long-term infrastructure plan comprises three key elements: Firstly, new buildings to ensure service delivery to clients and the public from the appropriate buildings; secondly, maintenance and repairs to safeguard the assets we have; and thirdly, rehabilitation, renovation and refurbishment.
The conservation of state buildings is central to the Inner-City Regeneration Strategy, as well as our strategic goal of shifting the larger percentage of government accommodation away from leases to occupation of our own buildings.
Concrete achievements and plans include the following: 11 buildings were rehabilitated in 2012-2013, with a further 15 earmarked for the current year in order to accommodate user departments. As part of the Accessibility Programme, 42 buildings were made more accessible for people with disabilities last year, with a further 146 buildings prioritised for the current year.
In implementing the Green Building Programme, a number of pilot projects in water efficiency, waste management, energy efficiency and eco-labelling of construction materials are being rolled out. Key amongst these is the current baseline study on energy efficiency in public buildings. The pilot will target 1 000 buildings and contribute to the creation of green jobs.
We have taken firm control of Prestige by centralising it, implementing a new structure and creating a direct reporting line to the director-general. This has already resulted in the cancellation of a number of high-priced projects. All Prestige projects are now undergoing investigation. The process is complete with regard to Pretoria. We have now extended the investigation to Cape Town, where R100 million was spent on renovating 11 houses.
Similarly, many of the problems surrounding the security upgrade at Nkandla are rooted in the failure of supply
chain management processes, poor management and the lack of accountability. As a department, we have completed our preliminary internal investigation at the beginning of the year. We have referred our findings to the Special Investigations Unit, SIU, for further investigating. We are also co-operating with the Public Protector's investigation. Parliament is planning to discuss our report and the Auditor-General has undertaken to audit Prestige projects. I can assure hon members that no stone is being left unturned. I have given an undertaking that as a department, we will act against any official where evidence of wrongdoing exists.
We have revived the parliamentary village boards. Our priority now is to deal with unauthorised and illegal residents, to introduce an access card system and to review all the aspects of security.
Additionally, policy proposals on norms and standards will be presented to the executive for a decision by 30 June. These measures will be underpinned by the deployment of additional resources in Cape Town and Pretoria. The new systems will be fully operational within the next six months.
I also need to mention that we have completed an audit of heritage buildings, and drawn up a detailed inventory of moveable assets with photos and valuation certificates. This greatly assists in safeguarding these important heritage items. It also provides a baseline for decision-making on the future care of heritage sites. In this respect I need to point out that the maintenance of heritage buildings is an expensive business.
With regard to the policy of transforming the built environment, the Department of Public Works remains responsible for the regulation and transformation of the construction and property sectors. Skewed property ownership patterns need to be addressed, and the construction industry has to create an environment where emerging contractors graduate into sustainable businesses.
The following processes were finalised last year: The Construction Sector Charter Council was registered as a section 21 company; the National Contractor Development Programme, driven by the Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB, was launched in December 2012; and a National Contractor Development Forum, NCDP, comprising the Department of Public Works and other national infrastructure development departments, has been established to co-ordinate contractor development. The NCDP is also being rolled out in municipalities, in partnership with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, and the SA Local Government Association, Salga.
On the legislative front, this year the department will be tabling in Parliament the Expropriation Bill, as well as a Bill to establish Agrément SA as a public entity. Deputy Minister Cronin is driving these processes and will provide further details. Having recently rebranded themselves as leaders of the anti-apartheid struggle, I have no doubt that the DA will lend their full support to the Expropriation Bill.
With regard to the department's public entities, I need to mention the important work done by these entities that report to the Minister of Public Works. With regard to Agrément SA, the Department of Public Works has utilised Agrément SA's certificated products in the construction of new schools in the Eastern Cape and North West provinces.
The outputs of the Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB, include developing standards for government tenders, maintaining a national Register of Projects, as well as the contractor registration and the grading system, which are both a risk management tool for clients as well as a development tool for emerging contractors. The Council for the Built Environment, CBE, ensures that only registered and competent professionals are allowed to practice. It remains a major concern that only a quarter of registered professionals in the built environment are black. Last year the CBE established a candidacy programme to help remove bottlenecks and assist young black graduates to attain professional registration. Meanwhile, the CBE bursary scheme produced its first batch of eight graduates last year, one of whom is in the audience today. [Applause.]
The Independent Development Trust, IDT, supports the DPW to fulfil its mandate, as well as in providing project management services to other national and provincial departments. As part of SIP 13, IDT has been appointed as one of the implementing agencies for the national Schools Beautification programme.
DPW is currently working with IDT to develop a new business case to review the organisation's mandate, funding model and institutional form, to ensure the long-term sustainability of the organisation.
With regard to the Turnaround Strategy: Rebuilding Public Works, the department's past performance has been characterised by corruption and mismanagement. This is a large and complex organisation where all too often there is misalignment between the mandate and the structure of the organisation. We are currently addressing the challenge of organisational structure with the assistance of the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA.
I want to assure this House that the turnaround project to rebuild the Department of Public Works is now well under way. We have the funding from National Treasury. The core of the Turnaround Team is in place under the office of the director-general and not in the Ministry, so that if the Minister is recalled tomorrow it will not derail the whole turnaround. The planning processes are well advanced, with annual, three-year and seven-year plans in place, developed in consultation with National Treasury. Many of DPW's problems can be traced to a long period of unsustainable, unstable and constantly changing leadership. I have also said that any turnaround strategy needs to be led from the top. I believe we have now stabilised the leadership with the appointment of the director-general and chief financial officer, CFO, and other changes at leadership level.
Our key strategic focus has been on taking control of five key areas: In combating fraud and corruption, we have worked closely with the SIU to investigate irregular leases and projects. There are approximately 40 investigations in total, of which 23 have been completed. This has resulted in successful disciplinary actions, the suspension of six officials and the dismissal of some of them, including one deputy director-general, DDG. We have instituted court actions to recover monies wrongly paid by the department. We are also awaiting reports from disciplinary hearings involving a further two senior officials.
Arising out of the completed investigations into Prestige in Pretoria, the SIU has recommended that we suspend and discipline the responsible officials. We have started implementing this as late as last week. [Applause.]
SlU investigations, taken together with recent findings of the Competition Commission, tell the same story of overpricing and collusion between some officials and sections of the construction industry. This is a timely reminder that it takes two to tango and that corruption and greed in the private and public sectors are mutually reinforcing each other.
In the light of this, we have started to enhance the investigation capacity within the department. Internal Audit was empowered to commission forensic investigations. Approximately 19 investigations have been completed. We are also establishing an internal Compliance and Enforcement Unit, as advised by the SA Revenue Service, Sars, as part of a separate Risk Management Branch that we are creating and, looking forward, we are establishing a separate Supply Chain Management branch. In this regard we are working closely with the National Treasury to review and strengthen supply chain processes.
Our broad approach can be characterised as follows: We will investigate and prosecute cases of fraud and corruption, but it is equally important to put in place robust systems ― and here I am quoting our Sars colleagues ― with the intent "to make it easy for weak people to do the right thing, and difficult for bad people to do the wrong thing".
With regard to the Immovable Register, the state land reconciliation with Deeds Office records has been substantially completed. This exercise involved scrutinising the records of some 180 000 land parcels, ascribing custodianship to the responsible department or level of government, and commencing the vesting processes where necessary - a very complex process involving numerous stakeholders. The figures we now have will form the basis of a physical verification process due to commence in July 2013.
The national department still has to allocate custodianship to some 4 500 land parcels, and approximately 24 000 land parcels need to be vested, a lengthy process which will take until March 2016 to complete. My main point is that although this is a lengthy exercise, I am very confident that we are on track with the creation of the Asset Register that will, for the first time ever, accurately reflect the state's assets.
Let me make the further point that this is a real game changer. With a sustainable register of state's immoveable assets in place, we will have at our disposal the tools to leverage this massive property portfolio for economic development. This will also assist us to drive the transformation of the property sector in South Africa.
With regard to the audit of leases, the department presently manages a portfolio of 2 788 leased properties across the Republic. In his 2012 Budget speech, the Minister of Finance announced Treasury's support for a national audit of leases by the DPW, a timely response to the numerous lease scandals at the time.
To date, 100% of these leases have been reviewed. A total of 1 316 of these leases required attention, revision or renewal. These we regard as backlog leases. A total of 365 of these leases have already been addressed. Recommendations for the remaining 951 leases will be in place by the end of June 2013.
With regard to improving the audit outcomes, the Clean Audit project was initiated in December 2012 to address audit queries, and includes a consortium of specialist service providers which have been deployed across the department's headquarters and in the 11 regions. I am pleased to announce that the department has appointed 64 unemployed commerce graduates as part of this initiative. [Applause.] Indeed, this is working out so well that the department is considering employing an additional 100 unemployed commerce graduates. [Applause.] Skills development of finance and property staff is a secondary, but vitally important, output of this project.
A key area of focus is the reduction of late payments and compliance with the President's instruction to pay suppliers within 30 days. As part of this project, the DG and I are visiting the regions to meet with service providers, and to work with officials to address complaints.
Irregular expenditure is also a key focus of the Clean Audit project. This involves the inspection of every transaction in terms of compliance with supply chain management policy. I am pleased to confirm that all transactions for the department and the Property Management Trading Entity, PMTE, will be fully tested for the 2013-2014 financial year in order to eliminate irregular expenditure in going forward.
We are also operationalising the PMTE; we have appointed the right professionals. I wish to assure this House that the turnaround is proceeding, in consultation with labour. They are on board with all the issues.
I would like to conclude by thanking the following people. I want to thank the President for entrusting to me this difficult Public Works portfolio ... [Applause.] ... the Auditor-General, Public Protector and Members of Parliament for their constructive criticism; members of the SlU for arming us in the fight against corruption; the Treasury and the Technical Assistance Unit, TAU, for their assistance and support in developing and implementing a turnaround strategy; the DPSA for assisting us to address human resource challenges; the director-general and senior management of the department, as well as the previous acting director-general, Ms Mandisa, who have kept the ship afloat, even as we try to turn it around; the entities of Public Works that have contributed their personnel and their knowledge to assist in the turnaround. I particularly want to thank all those officials of the department who are actively assisting in the process of rebuilding.
My message to them and to hon members is: whilst we must never ever underestimate the magnitude and scope of the task we face, even so, we have stabilised the department. [Applause.] We are making real progress in tackling the immediate and systemic challenges. We have put in place the building blocks. We have a plan to rebuild Public Works. Together we can make Public Works work. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M C MABUZA / TH / TAKE ENDS AT 10:26:16
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THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
Mrs M C MABUZA: Chairperson, hon Minister of Public Works, hon Deputy Minister of Public Works, Ministers present here, Director-General of the department, members of the Portfolio Committee on Public Works, entities reporting to the department, officials and employees of the department, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, good morning.
The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa is the supreme law of the country and speaks of not forgetting the past, but also to look beyond that. At the beginning the Constitution emphasises this with the words "We, the people of South Africa," reminding us that we are one and that the past is there, not forgotten, and helping us to move forward. But I will quote the main reason why, I believe, we are here today, and that is, "to improve the quality of life for all citizens and free the potential of each person".
The quality of life of each citizen is written in our Constitution and requires that we all make an effort to make sure that people do not lose hope in that promise. The Portfolio Committee on Public Works saw this hope from the people when doing its oversight work in different provinces.
The committee believes that the Department of Public Works can contribute to the constitutional obligation of improving the lives of people whilst addressing its own challenges. The Minister of Public Works said that there are challenges in the department, but after broad consultation with the stakeholders, especially the staff within the department, he identified key areas that prevented the department from carrying out its mandate properly.
In 2012 the Minister introduced a turnaround strategy with the immediate focus on stabilising the department by providing strong leadership at ministerial and departmental levels, and evaluating the mandate of the department to determine why and how well it is being implemented.
The Minister reported to the committee that some of the 18 main points that are included in the turnaround strategy will only be implemented in phases. The planned result is the gradual transformation of the department from its current negative image as a department of slow delivery, or no-delivery, to that of a department that will ensure that it provides a quality service to all its client departments. We all know this is a process that will take time.
The department has a number of challenges, which include mismanagement of resources, and fraud and corruption, as mentioned by the Minister. The Minister presented a report to the portfolio committee highlighting issues affecting the delivery of the department. These included persons suspended and the finalisation of the disciplinary processes being extended through the use of court action.
The report indicated cases that had been resolved or were in the process of being resolved. An example is the request for the resignation of the chief financial officer, CFO, of the department. This was to address the challenge of not being able to fill the positions where persons were suspended until their cases were finalised. The Minister emphasised that this did not mean that criminal charges could not be instituted against persons who were guilty of fraud or corruption.
The portfolio committee also found instances of irregular expenditure, which led to large variations in cost of the Lebombo and Skilpadshek Border Posts, as well as the Kimberley new generation prison. The portfolio committee was informed during its oversight to the Lebombo Border Post, that the facility was not being used due to flawed design, and the processing area that was not properly laid out. Also, the area where cash was received did not have any bulletproof glass, which the portfolio committee considered as a risk.
In 2012, a joint meeting was also held with the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs on the challenges it identified at the border posts. The issues identified at the Lebombo Border Post include design of the processing area, directional flow of people and traffic between South Africa and the Mozambique border did not function as intended. During peak seasons, such as Easters and Christmas breaks, large volumes of traffic and pedestrians come through the border and that results in long delays. The portfolio committee also learnt that the land was being rented out at R10 per annum.
The systems that must be in place for the client department to be happy with the services they receive from the Department of Public Works will only happen when all structures are fully functional.
The Portfolio Committee on Public Works remains concerned about the department receiving two disclaimers of opinion from the Auditor-General. The Minister reported to the committee that while the turnaround strategy was beginning to transform the department, it would take time before the department received a clean audit.
The Minister also reported that proper systems are being put in place for the department to properly bill the client department, lease accommodation on behalf of national departments, and have correct procurement and supply chain management systems in place.
The need for proper systems in the department was again highlighted by the findings of the Auditor-General on the year 2010-11 financial year. Particular emphasis was placed on the functioning of the Property Management Trading Entity, PMTE. The Property Management Trading Entity received a disclaimer of opinion due to, among others, lack of adequate systems for identifying and recognising the instances of fruitless and wasteful expenditure. An amount of R6,8 million occurred due to a lack of monthly preparation of supporting documents in the payment of municipal bills, interest paid resulting from late payments, flawed contracts and client departments vacating the property before the leases expired.
The committee therefore remains concerned about the department's lack of proper systems and controls, especially the challenges experienced in its leasing, procurement, supply chain management, SCM, and billing systems. The committee has raised these concerns with the department before, because some departments have had to do work that would ordinarily be done by the Department of Public Works. The departments felt that the work that needed to be completed was done too slowly. Now the Department of Public Works must claim back its mandate.
The department identified the following areas that impacted on its service delivery: A lack do capacity to clear the entire backlog in payments to municipalities, and experts to assist with the management of its property portfolio.
The department must still complete an effective, usable immovable asset register by 2014. Completing the asset register is important for government. It will then know what it owns, what state it is in, and how it can be used. The department has been struggling to complete the asset register. In response to these capacity constraints, the department appointed Ernst and Young as service provider to assist in the completion of the outstanding issues relating to the immovable assets register. But the asset register must be managed and maintained by officials within the department and not be dependent on consultants.
The committee has raised the issue of the department's capacity constraints. This has negatively affected the department's ability to carry out its mandate. It is currently undertaking a skills audit to understand the available skills in the department, and what vacancies it must fill. The department has already identified that technical skills professionals, like engineers, architects, project managers, and quantity surveyors must be appointed.
A call was also made to retired professionals to come and mentor graduates so that they can also have proper experience, so that they can qualify to be engineers, or architects with the built environment professional councils. The Council for the Built Environment, CBE, is responsible, along with the six professional councils, for overseeing the transformation of the built environment professions.
The participation of women in the different built environment professions does not reflect the demographics of the country, especially in engineering. The committee was concerned about the number of unemployed graduates who were not able to qualify as they did not receive proper experiential training. This is because there is a shortage of engineers, project managers, and quantity surveyors.
The department is also working together with the Departments of Public Service and Administration and Higher Education and Training to train artisans and technicians. The opening of workshops is planned to allow the department to improve its maintenance programme. This is important because it gives unemployed youth a chance to be trained to get proper jobs. But the workshops are currently not functioning properly and will be piloted in Pretoria and Cape Town.
The training of the artisans and technicians is a medium to long-term strategy of the department. The training can eventually allow the department to reduce the outsourcing of its maintenance function. Employing artisans and young people trained to undertake maintenance of government buildings will eventually be more cost-effective. If the buildings are well maintained the life-cycle of these assets can be extended.
The department will also introduce legislation to Parliament. The Agrèment South Africa Bill will create Agrèment South Africa, an entity reporting to the department as a juristic person. Usually when Public Works is mentioned it is to find out what it does wrong. But sometimes things can also be done right. The work done by Agrèment South Africa is one, and it successfully implement its mandate to test and certify innovative building technologies which are safe for the public to use, cost effective and energy efficient.
Agrèment is the smallest entity receiving an allocation of just under R10 million from the department for 2013-14 financial year. But, it has made a large contribution to the work of the department as well as other departments, including Science and Technology, Human Settlements and Transport. The work of Agrèment includes the technical certification of many new labour-intensive construction methods, such as the development of criteria for using thin concrete technology in road construction that was developed and implemented in Gauteng and the Eastern Cape, and the environmental assessments such as thermal performance and energy efficiency that contribute towards environmental sustainability.
The chief executive officer, CEO, of Agrèment SA presented its Annual Performance Plan to the committee and said that the vision of the entity is to make building cheaper and simpler so that people can build their own houses, especially in the rural areas. The committee agrees with this, and suggests that the department encourage the use of the products certified by Agrèment. It should facilitate the introduction of these products to more government departments, municipalities and entities. This is something that has gone right and says that if there is commitment, things can work.
The department also has two additional entities reporting to it, namely, the Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB, which is tasked with the transformation of the construction industry and monitoring its progress. The CIDB presented a report by the Competition Commission on collusion in the construction industry. The committee was informed that collusion by big companies in the construction sector led to the exclusion of contractors at grades lower than 8 or 9 from progressing in the construction industry.
The committee learnt from its oversight over the provinces that emerging contractors were negatively affected by bigger companies. The smaller contractors struggled because they did not have a large capital base, could not easily get loans from banking institutions and sometimes failed due to late payments from the main contractor or government.
The Independent Development Trust, IDT, has been tasked to assist in the eradication of mud schools and unsafe structures. The IDT has used innovative construction methods to speed up the process. The committee observed the schools built in the Eastern Cape, but was concerned that the projects were not using the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, principles of skills development. And labour intensifies due to the short duration of these projects.
The replacement of inappropriate school buildings and the provision of basic services have been a focus of concern since 2007. In December last year, the Minister pledged the department's support to the Department of Basic Education and other stakeholders in the implementation of the Strategic Integrated Project 13 and the National School Build Programme, SIP 13. This is to address the inheritance of apartheid spatial planning by ensuring that there is uniformity in planning, procurement and contract management in the schools refurbishment and building projects.
And I, again, quote from the Constitution that says:
Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity.
This year is the centenary of the 1913 Native Land Act. This is the proper title that states who was most affected by that legislation. But we do not forget that other people, for example the San, also lost their land. I mention this because members of the public expressed fears that the introduction of the draft expropriation Bill will lead to land grabs with no compensation. But this is not the intention of the draft Bill as it wants to bring the existing Expropriation Act, No 13 of 1975 in line with the Constitution, section 25, the property clause, which is under the Bill of Rights.
The aim of the Bill is to provide for the expropriation of property for a public purpose or in the public interest, subject to just and equitable compensation, and to provide for matters connected thereto.
The draft expropriation Bill has already been published by the department for public comment on 13 April this year. In answer to a request made by the committee, the Deputy Minister of Public Works briefed the committee on the contents of the Bill. The information session assisted the committee and prepared it for its own engagement in public participation processes and deliberations of the draft Bill once it is tabled in Parliament and referred to the committee.
Section 9(3) of the Constitution clearly states a number of areas that citizens may not be disadvantaged. I will mention a select few here:
The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, age, or disability.
The country must deal with high rates of unemployment, poverty and inequality. In 2004, the Department of Public Works was tasked with leading Phase 1 of the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP. The EPWP is one of government's main programmes to reduce poverty and provide skills development to marginalised communities, especially those who live in rural areas. The programme uses labour-intensive methods on infrastructure projects so that ordinary people can work, learn a skill and get a daily stipend for the work.
We are now in Phase 2 of the programme and it must create 4,5 million work opportunities by 2014. From 2009 to date the programme produced 2,6 million work opportunities and will continue to scale up the participation in the programme. The committee, from its oversight visits to the provinces, recommended to the department that low-income municipalities receive assistance in creating work. The grant was amended to give low-income municipalities a chance to create work opportunities for them. They receive 40% of the grant upfront and the other 30% each once they have reported on the work opportunities created.
The committee is pleased that low capacity municipalities can take part in the EPWP. The targets for youth and women are reached. But the committee is concerned about the 2% target for people with disabilities that has not been reached. The committee suggested to the department that they engage with organisations that represent people with disabilities so that they can also take part in the programme.
Finally, I end where I started, with a quote from our Constitution, that we are here to "improve the quality of life for all citizens and free the potential of each person".
We must all do this and the department is expected to fulfil its mandate and implement it for the good of all. The budget of the department must be used for all people, but especially for the poor and marginalised communities in the rural areas, where economic development is usually very slow, so that they too can see the quality of lives they have improved.
Sepedi:
Tonakgolo, ngwanešo, o šomile. Le šomile, le fetotše kgoro. Bomaganagobotšwa, bomaganagokwa, ba tlile go tla mo ba re ga o dire selo. Ipotše gore o a šoma.
Maloko a Komiti ya Phothofolio, re šomile, re a šoma, re sa tlile go šoma. Afrika Borwa e tla ba se e le go sona ka lebaka la Kgoro ya Mešomo ya mmušo.
English:
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms A M DREYER / MALUTA\\\tfm/// TAKE ENDS
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Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 3
Mrs M C MABUZA
Ms A M DREYER: Hon Chairperson, the vision of the National Development Plan, 2030 says, and I quote:
We, the people of South Africa, have journeyed far since the long lines of our first democratic elections on 27 April 1994, when we elected a government for us all. We began to tell a new story then. We have lived and renewed that story along the way. Now, in 2030, we live in a country which we have remade.
Afrikaans:
So kan ons ook vir Openbare Werke 'n visie in 2030 voorstel. Dink u in, vandag is 8 Mei 2030.
Ek wens Minister Thulas Nxesi hartlik geluk met die prestasies van sy departement oor die afgelope 17 jaar, vanaf destyds, 2013, tot vandag, 2030.
Die eerste rede vir die sukses van Openbare Werke vandag, in 2030, is dat sy prioriteite tans die volgende is: die bou van sosiale infrastruktuur soos skole en klinieke; die instandhouding van hierdie geboue; deeglike boekhouding van verhuurde geboue; die stiptelike invordering van huurgeld van huurders en die betaling van huur aan privaateienaars.
Sewentien jaar gelede, in 2013, het hierdie prioriteite nie bestaan nie. Die begroting vir Openbare Werke was toe van R8 miljard tot R6,2 miljard gesny, grootliks weens die onderbesteding op infrastruktuur.
In sy jaarverslag, destyds, het die Ouditeur-Generaal uitgewys dat Openbare Werke nie rekords gehad het van hulle huurkontrakte nie en daarom het hulle in die 2011-12 boekjaar R20,7 miljoen aan inkomste uit huurgeld verloor.
Ons onthou ook dat Openbare Werke destyds berug was vir die wanbetaling van huurgeld aan privaateienaars. Byvoorbeeld, nadat die betaling vir die streekspolisiekantoor in Worcester minstens ses maande agterstallig was, het die desperate eienaar einde laaste sy gebou met kettings toegesluit en die polisie het toe letterlik op straat gesit.
'n Tweede kernrede vir die prestasie van Openbare Werke vanaf 2019 tot vandag, in 2030, is die indiensneming van bekwame amptenare. Die personeel is tans, in 2030, gekwalifiseerd, kundig, eerlik en partypolities neutraal. Hulle word gekeur, nie volgens kleur of politieke kontakte nie, maar volgens hulle geskiktheid vir die pos. Veels geluk ook hieroor aan die Minister! [Applous.]
Dit was voorheen egter nie so nie. Inteendeel, in 2013 was duisende amptenare nie gekwalifiseerd vir hulle poste nie, want hulle was politieke aangestellings. In 2013 was 20% van tegniese poste vakant en begrotingsgeld moes dus op konsultante bestee word. In die 2012-boekjaar is 98 amptenare in dissiplinêre verhore skuldig bevind aan ernstige wangedrag, soos diefstal en aanranding.
English:
However, Minister Nxesi turned the department around successfully, and I am congratulating him, in accordance with the National Development Plan ... [Applause.] ... which states, and I quote:
Therefore, in 2030, we experience daily what we contribute in our taxes, we get back through the high quality of our public services. That is why we have good clinics and hospitals and good schools.
Afrikaans:
Die derde rede vir die sukses van Openbare Werke vandag, in 2030, is die dienslewering, nie aan Ministers nie, maar aan alle landsburgers.
Soos die Nasionale Ontwikkelingsplan dit stel vir vandag in 2030, en ek haal aan:
English:
We know that those to whom we have given the privilege to govern our land do so on our behalf and for the benefit of all the people.
After the 2019 and 2024 elections, the Minister of Public Works followed the example of the Western Cape DA government ... and reprioritised the budget to meet the needs of ordinary citizens. Today, in 2030, there are fewer Ministers in the Cabinet and they are living modestly. Primary schools, police stations and medical clinics were revamped and new ones were built, from Bisho to Kagiso. [Interjections.]
It was very different before 2019. It's difficult to imagine it now that we have an efficient, people friendly Department of Public Works, but 17 years ago, in 2013, over R200 million of public money was used to enrich one person. Huge construction projects, including 31 new buildings, were undertaken at his palace, Nkandla.
Furthermore, during that time in 2013, Public Works spent twice as much on presidential parties and functions than was allocated in the budget.
Following the example of the then President, Public Works massively increased spending on ministerial mansions. In 2013, way back then, R532 million was allocated, over the medium term to the Prestige Portfolio to add luxuries such as swimming pools, braai areas, guest cottages and spas for Ministers. It was clear that Ministers' own comfort was far more important than service delivery to the people. They felt nothing for the voters.
While there was unlimited spending on the ANC ruling class, the department underspent by R212 million on social infrastructure like schools, police stations and clinics. The message then was clear: To hell with the other 50 million South Africans!
This corrupt self-enrichment was a key reason why, in 2019, voters elected a new government – a DA coalition government, which included parties such as Cope. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members from the left side, can you also ensure that your own speaker is heard. She is having difficulty following the speech. [Interjections.] Hon Mubu, I am the presiding officer, not you. So, let us give the speaker a fair opportunity to be heard. Interjections can be made, but let's not drown out the speaker. You may proceed, hon member.
Afrikaans:
Die vierde faktor vir Openbare Werke se sukses vandag, in 2030, is die Bateregister. Minister Nxesi, veels geluk! Ons het uiteindelik 'n betroubare Bateregister. Elke stukkie eiendom is aangeteken en die departement weet presies wát wáár geleë is, wat die toestand daarvan is en watter departement dit vir watter doel gebruik.
Dalk onhou u, destyds in 2013, toe die ANC amper 20 jaar reeds aan bewind was, het die destydse Openbare Werke nie 'n werkende Bateregister van staatseiendom gehad nie. Vandag, in 2030, kan ons skaars glo dat soveel wanadministrasie moontlik was.
Destyds, in 2013, het die staat ongeveer 180 000 stukke grond besit en was dit een van die grootste grondeienaars in die suidelike halfrond. Die departement het egter nie geweet waar in Limpopo of die Oos-Kaap van die grond lê nie. Sommige grond was onder die beheer van tradisionele leiers en ander was in die buiteland en daarom kon die departement ook nie die Onteieningswet toepas nie.
Maar nou, in 2030, is dit heel anders. Die DA-regering het die Nasionale Ontwikkelingsplan dadelik begin uitvoer, nadat die DA in 2019 die nuwe regering gevorm het.
English:
In conclusion, today, 8 May 2030, I convey my sincere congratulations to Minister Thulas Nxesi. I congratulate you, firstly, for implementing the Public Works priorities of the National Development Plan; secondly, for appointing only the most efficient officials in the department; thirdly, for the fact that Public Works deliver services not to the elite, but to ordinary citizens; and fourthly, for completing the Asset Register.
Today, in 2030, you have made a stunning success of Public Works, since you joined the DA when it came to power in 2019. Congratulations! Veels geluk! Ngiyabonga. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr CT Frolick): Order! Order, hon members! Hon members, you are disrupting the Minister's debate on this Budget Vote. We want to proceed with the Budget Vote. May I ask the Whips to do their work, please, and ensure that their members are in order.
Mr G B D MCINTOSH / src / TAKE ENDS AT 10:55:15
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 4
Ms A M DREYER
Mr G B D MCINTOSH: Chairperson, I am here in the place of Mr Paul Mnguni, who is not well. So it's a privilege to speak on his behalf. At least the Department of Public Works does not own or manage or both, the Lost City or Sun City, so I will not ask about the Gupta wedding. However, I did notice that with two hard, bold communists in the Minister and the Deputy Minister in this department, the hon Blade Nzimande came in just to make sure, as a good commissar would that they are performing properly. [Laughter.] [Applause.] [Interjections.] Yes, I noticed that his presence keeps the guys in place. I want to congratulate, first of all, the Minister on his new arrival. I must say that I am reading through the website and doing some research. I think he is really trying his best and if he can do the Department of Public Works what Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma did for the Department of Home Affairs; he will do South Africa a great service. [Applause.]
I also want to welcome the new Deputy Minister ― they call him the "velvet communist". [Laughter.] I think he is very pleased, because he has been bumping heads with those fierce entrepreneurs and champions of free enterprise and offenders of the property rights, the kombi-taxi owners' industry. I am sure he is very pleased to enter the quiet waters of Public Works. Finally, I would also like to welcome Director-General Mziwonke Dlabantu and I am very pleased he is not a Hollywood director-general. He really is the director-general. It is difficult to find anything about him. I have searched him on Google and Wikipedia, but I am sure that he has been carefully chosen. We wish him well.
The department is there to look after the states assets and it is very important that it realises that it is just a technical and a service department, but it has a huge institutional memory, going back 110 years and it needs to do its best to provide good service. One of the things which I want to encourage the hon Minister and his department to do is to try and retain the competence and efficiency. Since the Department of Public Works has been so badly run, other departments, like Home Affairs and Defence have been trying to start their own building construction. I don't believe that is in our national interest. I believe the Department of Public Works should do that because they have the skills and they have the background. I also want to encourage the department to use retired engineers, technical people. There are lots of people out there, mostly old white men like me. They are guys who a lot of experience and they have "isithunzi" [dignity], as we say in isiZulu, and they would like to help South Africa; they are not opposed. I think the Minister should try to source those people.
I also want to commend the Minister on his press release of 6 March about all the money that has been stolen. It makes one sick actually, but I am pleased he is doing something. The Department of Public Works, with its public money ― I am not going to make any friends now, neither in the ANC or in my party or the opposition. One needs to point out that the "umjondolo okanye umkhukhu" or backyard room in the Western Cape will be rented from R400 to R800 a month. In our parliamentary villages, Members of Parliament pay half the rent that is paid for a "umjondolo" or "umkhukhu".
There is a similar situation with. One sees big buses running with two passengers. The Minister should get the village management boards to account for the money that they use. Has Prestige Management done any research on the rentals of the Ministers' houses? Does the department provide tax returns to SA Revenue Service, Sars, for fringe benefits tax purposes?
I want to ask the Minister what his plans are about a new Parliament? We see big open land about here. Is he going to expand in Cape Town or is he going to build new a Parliament in Pretoria? If he goes to Pretoria, he should remember that at the time the Union Buildings were built, there were already concept plans in 1909 or 1910 for a Parliament to be built there.
The Parliamentary villages in the Western Cape are valuable real estate and the Parliamentary buildings here could also be recycled, maybe for the new Pan-African Parliament to use.
I learned about customary law in lectures in 1961 at UCT from one of Minister Nxesi's heroes - and I see the Deputy Minister is shaking his head as well – a man called Professor Jack Simons. Now, Jack Simmons taught us - he did not teach me Marxist lessons, but he taught us about "inkosikazi yesokudla"; he taught us about "inkosikazi yesokunxele", the right ― hand wife and the left ― hand wife and the Mnumzane. He told us that the "nkosikazi yesokunxele" is "encane" [junior] and the "nkosikazi yesokudla" is [senior].
Therefore, you could have four wives in the isithembu culture. What is interesting and obvious is ... I mean, whether this department has specifications for dealing with the traditional homestead and its security arrangements and all the tunnels there to enable the husband to go and visit the wife of his choice without the security seeing him or so that he cannot be shot at. [Laughter.] Professor Monica Wilson taught us about religion and she also taught us about "ukuloya" [bewitching] and especially prevalent amongst the wives for whom lobola, in the form of cows, has been paid where it mostly comes from "umona" [jealousy] which turns into "inzondo" [hatred]. So the challenges of...
IsiZulu:
...isithembu, ukuthi phela manje sekufanele uthenge amasaka amabili amazambane. [Uhleko.]
English:
Nobody objects to our giving security to our head of state. Go to Betty's Bay and you will see the barracks that were built for Dr Verwoerd by the state at his Betty's Bay holiday cottage. We do not object to that. It is just that it has gone crazy. You know, if you are a Stalinist, you live in fear of your people. You are frightened of your people. I do not understand why people are so frightened. I do not know if P W Botha was as frightened of his people that he needed such security around his place. Really, I mean we are not dealing with ... who is that guy in the CAR? He was the president there .... Bokassa. Mr Francois Bozizé. South Africa is not CAR, or Mobutu Sese Seko. We are a modern, good, open country and there are no no-go areas in South Africa.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon McIntosh, your time has expired.
Mr G B D MCINTOSH: I think my time is up. Oh! A new Chairman! Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr K P SITHOLE / LN/Checked by Nobuntu/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 5
Mr G B D MCINTOCH
Mr K P SITHOLE: Chairperson, the Department of Public Works, the custodian and manager of the state's immovable assets, has truly failed to do what it promised to do, to provide strong leadership in order to ensure that the department is truly turned around. The department is still characterised by corruption and mismanagement at all levels, evidenced by eight years of qualified audits.
For the past three to four years, the department has received disclaimers from the Auditor-General for being a department with no credibility whatsoever. This basically means that the budget given to the department should be considered wasteful expenditure in its entirety, because there is no system of identifying the legitimate spending in the department. It is clear that the systematic flaws identified by the Minister himself in his last budget speech have not been resolved. In fact, in some cases things have gotten worse.
The Minister had said that the department was like a business that was in great need of transformation; yet if it were a business, the company would be bankrupt, the CEO would be on the verge of going to jail and no bank would be willing to loan them any money. Yet, in our government, failure seems to be rewarded more than success, while our people suffer the consequences of their failures. Staff retention has been a difficult challenge for the department to resolve, with many employees choosing to find work elsewhere in large numbers. This can be a sign indicative a lack of change in attitude of leadership and working environment.
How are people expected to work for the department that overspends millions on renovating ministerial homes? Ministers are public representatives and it is unacceptable for them to have extravagant housing upgrades. More suitable accommodation could have been bought at half the price of some of those amounts spent on renovations. Yet, the department's biggest failure is at KwaNxamalala, where it has not only shown that reckless expenditure is rampant within the department, but also that there has barely been any turnaround. The blatant lack of disclosure has solidified the department's "don't care" attitude towards those they are responsible for.
IsiZulu:
Inkomo ziyabhokola kusemahlangeni, ngubani lo odlayo kulo mnyango?
English:
Or was the department created as an expense account for presidential and ministerial extravagance? If one is to build something new, you expect him to know he can get proper material at affordable prices and not expose himself to corruption, especially with other people's money. Clearly, Prestige has failed in the proper implementation, and in monitoring of service providers.
The Immovable Asset Register, IAR, needs to be brought up to date because there is no reason for the department not to know about its assets here and abroad because that should be its basic function. The Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, is not the great success the department claims. It is not functioning in all areas, while some people do not even know what it is or how to implement it.
We were promised strong and determined leadership. What we received instead was a lukewarm performance and no accountability from the Minister and his department. With municipalities owed millions by different provincial public works departments, it seems other branches of leadership in the department are also lacking.
It is clear though that the department's leadership is there to obtain as much money as it can, because of cases of corruption associated with high-ranking officials whose actions have bankrupted the department have practically been ignored. The Minister does not seem to understand nor care that he is presiding over a department that is a cesspool of corruption. We can no longer stand by while the Minister promises one thing and ends up doing something completely different and acting as if the officials are untouchable.
The budget should be adjusted to reflect the department's poor performance. We should not congratulate failure. The IFP reiterates the statement we made regarding the Department of Public Works. It must be completely disbanded and its functions must be channelled to other relevant departments for the benefit of our communities.
IsiZulu:
Ngqongqoshe, asikwazi ukuthi sithi izinto ozenzile awuzenzanga. Ngakho-ke, siyakubongela lapho okwaze ukwenza kahle khona kanti futhi sizokweseka. Kepha umnyango wakho wona awusebenzi ngendlela. Ngiyathokoza. [Ubuwelewele.]
Mr L B GAEHLER
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 5
Mr K P SITHOLE
Mr L B GAEHLER: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister...
isiXhosa:
... masikubulele i-UDM iyayixhasa le Voti yoHlahlo-lwabiwo-mali. Kudala ndikule komiti, umahluko uyabonakala, siyabulela. Sibulela nangoMlawuli Jikelele ekhoyo...
English:
However, a number of areas still need your urgent attention. Transformation in the building industry is moving very slowly. Almost 20 years since the advent of democracy, emerging contractors continue to occupy the margins of meaningful economic activity in the industry.
Another area of concern is the high level of corruption in the industry. Nowhere was this more evident than in the price-fixing scandal of the construction companies that built our 2010 Fifa World Cup stadiums.
However, in some instances, this collusive behaviour extends beyond price-fixing. The modus operandi is that big construction companies do everything in their power to ensure that their Construction Industry Development Board grades of emerging contractors do not improve, with the sole purpose of limiting the competition, so that these emerging contractors must remain at the bottom. This anticompetitive practice should be dealt with decisively.
We therefore call on the department to launch a full-scale investigation into collusive practices of major construction companies and consultants. It not only takes two to tango in the construction industry, but three. The consultants are the ones who are managing their contracts, not the officials, although they are involved. We propose that the department develops built-in skills transfer mechanisms in all government-awarded business.
In conclusion, we have also been proposing for many years that the department uses its maintenance of government buildings as an employment strategy for youth and unemployed graduates...
IsiXhosa:
... nabantu bagxothwe emigodini Mphathiswa ohloniphekileyo, abanye baphakathi kweminyaka engama-40 ukuya kuma kwi-60, abanamisebenzi.
English:
We must create work for those people. We are therefore hoping that this time round the Minister will consider these critical employment creation opportunities.
IsiXhosa:
Mphathiswa siyabulela, sicinga ukuba kufuneka senze ngakumbi ukuvelisa amathuba emisebenzi nezakhono.
English:
We need to do more to create work and we need to do more to convey skills. We also would like to thank CBE for the skills project in high schools, which is very good. We have been calling for that for years and we will assist them because our people need to be skilled. Thank you. [Applause.]
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS / EKS//LN (IsiXho)/ LIM//ZLU/LIM CHECKED// TAKE ENDS AT 23:15:52
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 6
Mr L B GAEHLER
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Chairperson, Minister Nxesi, chair of the portfolio committee, hon members, friends and colleagues in the gallery, when I joined the Department of Public Works in June last year, the department was still in the midst of a very difficult, but absolutely necessary, fire-fighting exercise. Minister Nxesi, who joined the department a few months before me at the end of 2011, arrived to find three large, imposing and daunting dossiers on his desk, one from the Auditor-General, one from the Special Investigating Unit and I think the other one was from the Public Protector. Cracking down on corruption, dealing decisively with malpractices, that other members have also mentioned, and focusing inward on ourselves have all been a necessary focus over this past period.
Of course, turnaround and stabilisation still remain important priorities, as is dealing with corruption. We still have to do this. As the Minister said, we firmly believe that we are now relatively stabilised as a department, and this is very important. It means that we can now begin to focus more intently on our strategic responsibilities. We can begin to look outwards and forwards, and not just inwards and backwards. That is why we agree with you, and thank you for congratulating the Minister for, in 2012 and 2013, beginning to turn around this very complicated ship. I don't think it is because he joined the DA. There is no evidence of that. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Ms A M DREYER: In 2019.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: All of this means that we can now focus on our key focus areas and strategic responsibilities, with perhaps the most important of this surely being our core strategic function, which is the multibillion rand property portfolio that lies within the Department of Public Works.
According to the SA Property Owners Association, Sapoa, the property market is worth some R4,9 trillion. Most of that is in the private residential area, but R188 billion, according to Sapoa, is owned by national government departments and public entities. Of course, not all of this lies within Public Works, but a substantial amount is within our portfolio, and we are certainly the largest single private or public property owner in South Africa. Unfortunately, and we admit this readily, we have not managed this multibillion rand asset with the necessary public-sector professionalism. I underline public-sector professionalism.
Minister, we often say that we have good policies, but we just fail to implement them. I am sure that that it is often the case. However, this too easily excuses the policies and too easily exempts us from critically examining some of the policies in the light of our experience. Back in 1997, the Department of Public Works issued a White Paper and identified structural and operational weaknesses that were impeding the department's property management performance, amongst other things. The White Paper championed budgetary reforms that would introduce quasi-market mechanisms into the relationship between the department and what were now called client departments, using state-owned accommodation.
Capital expenditure, rental and rates costs for state-owned accommodation should, as was said in the White Paper, be devolved out of the budget of the Department of Public Works and transferred to the budgets of national departments and later also to provincial departments. In the words of the White Paper:
Client departments will then be required to pay a fee comprised of a capital charge, a notional rent and management fee for the accommodation and related services which the Department of Public Works would provide. This will entail the Department of Public Works developing mechanisms for service-level agreements with clients ...
... other public entities, thus - and it uses an awkward word –
... contractorising ...
... it's a nice neoliberal word ―
... its most important set of external relationships.
This "marketisation" of the relationship between the Department of Public Works and its so-called client departments was not necessarily entirely misguided. I don't want to be misunderstood saying that, notwithstanding the fact that I also learned from Jack Simons. However, in keeping with the times, it was unfortunately encased with a set of neoliberal and related new public management assumptions and priorities.
The first of these was that introducing a market mechanism into the relationship between the department and other departments would result in transparency and budgetary cost-cutting, and dealing with what was assumed to be a bloated public sector at the time. What this assumption neglected was that for the new contractorising – to use their awful word – relationships to be set up, considerable initial and indeed sustained expenditure would be required, particularly on professional skills, to capacitate the Department of Public Works to run a Property Management Trading Entity, PMTE, not least given the vast size of this portfolio.
The second problem is that the policy then got stuck between its budget reduction ambitions and its equally neoliberal ambitions to set up a new property state-owned enterprise, spun out of the department and modelled on private property companies, like Growthpoint, for instance, and no doubt being fattened up for the eventual privatisation of the portfolio. Again, I don't want to be misunderstood. There are things that we can learn as the Department of Public Works from private-sector property entities and so on, but we have different responsibilities. Our buildings are public buildings and need to provide access to all citizens. This Parliament, which is a client of the Department of Public Works, is not the corporate headquarters of some auditing firm or some multinational in Sandton or Century City. Therefore, managing this particular portfolio needs to be done with public intent and purpose in mind. So, we can learn things from private property companies, but we cannot just apply the same lessons. [Interjections.]
Indeed, it needs to be opened to the public. Not all, but many of them; obviously not the Premier of the Western Cape's private residence, which obviously needs to be protected and needs to be a national security point. [Interjections.]
We also need to integrate the management of our public portfolio with turning around and building integrated urban centres, as well as turning around the decay of many of our central business districts. We need to much more fully integrate the maintenance of our buildings with the Expanded Public Works Programme, for instance, and we need to green our buildings and make them retrofitting. In short, the public sector property portfolio should be a trendsetter in all of these important developmental and social objectives, rather than a laggard which is currently the case.
As a result of this White Paper, but because of conflicting objectives within this rather neoliberal White Paper, Minister, it took nearly 10 years for the Department of Public Works finally in 2006 to devolve the maintenance, property rates, municipal services and leasing budgets to its national so-called user or client departments, and introduce accommodation charges.
At the same time, under the influence of Treasury, it was said that we would need to set up a dedicated property management trading entity within the department. This was said in 2006. A business case was developed in 2006, but it was never implemented, and primarily, I would argue, because of the conflicting problems in the policy itself. It was not just a question of the policies are good; implement them. The policies themselves needed interrogation and transformation in many sectors. [Interjections.]
Added to that was the further problem that arose, which was that in addition to that, we were also mandated to pursue, too often, narrow black economic empowerment, BEE, objectives in this process of contractual arrangements. What happened was that these new contractual arrangements were manipulated and gained by corrupt officials within our department, but also by established as well as aspirant property developers. That further muddied the waters. What had set out as a policy which was designed to achieve greater transparency and cost-saving ― and, by the way, I stress gained and manipulated also by existing property developers, which are the white guys. It is something you failed to mention when you talked about corruption, hon Dreyer. You had a lot to say about corruption, but the Competition Commission's investigation around the massive multibillion rand collusion in the construction industry is a lesson. [Interjections.]
Ms A M DREYER: Like Roux Shabangu.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: I agree, like Roux Shabangu, whom we dealt with, exactly by working closely with a big bank, for instance. In that case ... We need to apologise, not only for the public sector, but also for the private sector, and you are silent when dealing with corruption in the private sector. [Applause.]
Minister, what we have done as of April is to set up, in line with what was required, an autonomous, separate PMTE within the department, not outside of it like a free-floating entity and we have ring-fenced the functions that deal with this property management, so that its account and the main account of the department are separated. These are interim measures as we move forward in developing our clear public, social, green-friendly and well-oriented policy with regard to the public management function of property.
Another area where we are beginning to shift from internal fire-fighting towards assuming forward-looking responsibility for our strategic responsibilities is in the area of legislation. Again, we are picking up on a long-delayed matter. The second subclause in the property clause of the Bill of Rights reads:
Property may be expropriated only in terms of a law of general application for a public purpose or in the public interest.
As we speak, there is no such legislated law of general application outlining an administratively just process in cases of expropriation. So this portfolio committee that we are speaking to today has a historic responsibility later this year finally to pilot a constitutionally compliant and constitutionally required Expropriation Act through Parliament. As the Minister said, we are sure that we will enjoy the support of our fellow freedom fighters of the past in the DA. [Laughter.]
Earlier this year there was an international workshop on what we call the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, and what is internationally often called public employment programmes. It was jointly hosted by the University of Cape Town and the UN's International Labour Organisation, ILO. It took place here in Cape Town and the Department of Public Works was a very active participant in the process. I am not sure if South Africans really appreciate the extent to which many countries around the world are now facing very serious unemployment problems, like of course we do, as a result of the, shall I call it, an economic global crisis or a capitalist economic crisis. [Laughter.] Anyway, it is the same thing. Many of them are facing this crisis and are extremely interested in our EPWP, and particularly the sheer scale of what we are doing in South Africa, which is on a very significant scale, as well as the multisectoral character and innovative approach, not least in terms of the environmental protection and sustainability that we have pioneered here in South Africa.
When the EPWP was first started, I think the belief was that it would be of short duration, a kind of temporary thing, as the economy was supposed to grow. Alas, we now know that we had growth, until obviously the global economic crisis hit us. It was not spectacular growth, but growth that was beginning to touch 5%. However, the unemployment crisis has remained obdurately and stubbornly present, and it's deeply systemic. Even the National Development Plan ― not the summarised version ... [Interjections.] ... exactly, not the Power Point version of it, but the 484 pages of the expanded ... Not the one that you just selectively nit-pick from here and there.
The NDP envisages some 430 000 expanded public works participants by the year 2030 on its best and most optimistic assumption about growth projection of some 5,4%. In the NDP, if growth is sustained at 4,8%, which might also be optimistic given the challenges that we have, it would rise to 2,6 million participants just in one year, of 2030. Interestingly, that is the NDP's own vision around the centrality, importance and ongoing importance ... alas, because of the massive systemic challenges that we have with regard to unemployment, these EPWPs are central to our country and addressing these huge challenges.
As the Minister mentioned, in this 2013-14 financial year, we are committed to accelerating the participating numbers. This will be achieved, amongst other things, through working very closely with provincial roads departments to ensure that there is increased labour intensity on projects. This is another area that is gained and is manipulated. There are grants of one kind or another, but private contractors are very reluctant to employ labour-intensive methods. That is something which we really have to put pressure on through a number of channels, to ensure that we are not spending money on EPWP, but in fact the participants are simply sweeping a floor or sitting under a tree, and are not actively employed, learning and acquiring skills. The particular key intervention in order to massify this project, in the light of our unemployment crisis, is increased technical support to municipalities to ensure that projects are designed and implemented labour intensively. We are going to extend this kind of support to at least 255 municipalities, particularly to the 23 most challenged districts. [Interjections.]
We are also focusing on the National Youth Service, and the department itself will be employing 3 500 youth in this financial year in terms of the National Youth Service.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr CT Frolick): Hon Deputy Minister, your time has expired.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: The budget we are debating will enable us to move forward. We have stabilised the department and together, including our colleagues from the opposition, we can begin to make Public Works work. [Applause.]
Mrs N D NGCENGWANE / AZM MNGUNI//TH / TAKE ENDS AT 11:28:30
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 7
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
Ms N D NGCENGWANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon Members of Parliament, ladies and gentlemen in the gallery, today marks yet another year that Members of Parliament debate the budget that was passed by the National Treasury to the Department of Public works and its entities.
The department has four entities. The first one is Agrément SA, which was established by the Minister of Public Works in 1969 and is mandated to enable the introduction of innovation and minimising associated risks in the market. It is an internationally recognised centre for the assessment and certification of construction products, systems, materials, components and processes. The second one is the Independent Development Trust, IDT, which is a public entity with national presence that can benefit the most marginalised areas of our country.
The third one is Construction Industry Development Board, CIBD, which has as its main focus the development of industry contractors, while at the same time managing delivery enhancement and improving capacity through strategic interventions and partnerships. The Council for the Built Environment, CBE, which is mandated as a Schedule 3A entity by the Built Environment Act, Act No 43 of 2000. As a statutory council, it was established as an overarching body for the six built environment professions and was given a mandate, which I will talk to in the next few minutes.
Before I speak to each one of the entities, I feel I need to send an overall message to all of us. We all know our democracy was achieved and attained through the loss of many lives. Many people died for this democracy. We wouldn't be where we are today, enjoying the fruits of democracy, had it not been for the people who laid down their lives for the rebirth of our country.
Many families lost their loved ones in order to achieve freedom and democracy, and the only way to say "thank you" to those brave heroes and heroines is for us to work and build this country and position it where it is supposed to be. We need to put extra effort into bridging the gap between the rich and the poor, the needy. As we all know, it was not their choice to be in the state that they are in today. South Africa is one of the countries in the world that has a very big gap between the rich and the poor.
We need to understand that the success of our democracy should and will be measured by the concrete steps this ANC-led government takes to improve the quality of life of the most vulnerable and downtrodden in our society. We have made some progress towards equality and restoring human dignity. However, a lot still needs to be done transform our country and society at large, to build a nation free of the past.
There is nothing impossible in this world. If we are really determined to make a change in this country, we will achieve it as we all know the difference between the impossible and the possible lies in a person's determination. To honour those who were tortured and jailed by the apartheid government and those who died for this country, we need to strive to make what they fought for a reality. Let us just think deeply about the poor, the unemployed, and those who go to bed hungry and put them first, as our priority.
The Agrément SA is internationally affiliated through membership of the World Federation of Technical Assessment Organisations. It is called the WFTAO. It is a worldwide network for co-ordinating and facilitating the technical assessment of innovation in the construction field. Some people argue that Agrément SA should fall under the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, the CSIR. No! No! It is only the finance of the board and the board's agency that is administered by the CSIR's built environment operating unit and is subject to the CSIR's financial systems and auditing processes, otherwise Agrément SA belongs to and enjoys being under the Department of Public Works because it deals with built environment issues.
Agrément SA has some activities planned for the coming years, which will have both local and international impact. These include, amongst others, undertaking technical certification of many new labour-intensive construction methods that include the development of criteria for using thin concrete technology in road construction; facilitating the introduction, application and the utilisation of satisfactory innovation and technology development in a manner that adds value and supports the construction industry; the assessment and certification of nonstandardised construction products; implementing key solutions for government and communities through social and public processes; participating in the CSIR initiatives to form and build strategic partnerships with the Development Bank of SA, DBSA, Sasol, Transnet and Eskom; and technically assess technology that can improve performance of dwellings in rural areas through improved traditional building methods using lightweight building construction technologies and materials.
In addition to Agrément SA's ties with the WFTAO, it also maintains close working relationships with the following stakeholders: CIDB, CBE, IDT, International Council for Building Research Studies and Development, the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, the three spheres of government, SA Bureau of Standards, SABS, the SA National Roads Agency Ltd, Sanral, and the National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC.
This entity does all the good work to the best of its ability, but does not go without some challenges. Agrément SA does not have an enforcement mandate. With all its expertise, it cannot make its mandate felt, like the ability to detect all instances of inferior building material that enters the country, eg, inferior quality cement, corrugated iron that impacts negatively on the consumers, especially the poor communities, because they buy the corrugated iron which is, at the end of the day, of a low standard.
Agrément SA has a quality control mechanism in place to ensure that construction products that are certified by the agency are in fact fit for the purpose. For the entity to effectively carry out its mandate in the nine provinces and to broaden its scope and mandate, the entity will require additional staff, premises, and definitely more funding.
To broaden the mandate of Agrément SA, the department reported that it intends to introduce legislation in Parliament towards the end of the third quarter of the 2013-14 financial year, which aims to align Agrément SA's current management to the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. The Public Works portfolio committee members will really appreciate that as widening the scope of work, and mandate is crucial.
The Construction Industry Development Board, CIDB, is a public Schedule 3A entity that reports to the Minister of Public Works. Its main objective is to provide leadership to stakeholders and to stimulate sustainable growth and improvement in the construction sector for effective service delivery. It seeks to enhance the construction industry's role in the country's economy. This entity has eight strategic goals, which are to provide contractor and client support through CIDB provincial offices. This assists the participation of the emerging sector in the construction industry, to provide support in enterprise development and the reform of the industry players.
IsiXhosa:
Siyikomiti yeSebe lezeMisebenzi yoLuntu sadinwa kukubona abantu basemakhaya besuka ngaphaya eMbizana, eBhayi, ePolokwane, naseMpumalanga bezokufuna uncedo ku-CIDB ePitoli. Senza isicelo sokuba kubekho ii-ofisi zengingqi zika-CIDB kuwo onke amaphondo.
Okwesibini, mabancediswe onokontraka abancinane ukuze nabo bakhule, kwezo ndawo bakuzo. Nathi siyafuna ukubona oo-LTA, noo-Group 5 ezilalini. Lo mba kufuneka ucaciswe phambi kokuba ikontraka inikwe isiniki-maxabiso, ukuba ukuze ikwazi ukuphumelela kufuneka incedisane kwaye isebenzisane neekontraka ezincinane, ingakumbi ezamakhosikazi nezolutsha. Ezo ziimfuno zikarhulumente okhokelwa yi-ANC, kungenjalo kuza kutya abantu abanye kude kuyokuvalwa.
English:
Another goal is to improve the construction register service through business excellence. The CIDB plans to maintain the integrity and reliability of the construction registers and improve efficiency of the contractor registration process; to improve compliance and maintenance of the CIDB prescripts and to combat fraud and corruption in the construction industry. The CIDB plans to promote compliance with its prescripts and minimise the rate of fraud and corruption.
Other additional goals are to promote uniformity of construction procurement systems in the organs of state in order to improve infrastructure delivery; to monitor and evaluate the performance of the construction industry; to build, strengthen and maintain relationships with stakeholders, the CIDB plans to facilitate information-sharing among industry stakeholders; and, lastly, to continually improve performance and growth of the sector.
The portfolio committee observed that most of the disadvantaged groups or contractors are registered in thousands as grade one or two. Also, these grade one contractors have to compete with more experienced contractors on a higher grade for the same contracts. As a result, CIDB is sometimes viewed as a gatekeeper. That's why the committee has asked for a demographic profile of contractors registered with CIDB in different provinces, as well as woman-owned contractors.
Lastly, on the CIDB, it is very sad to report that the Competition Commission of SA discovered that there was collusion in the construction industry by the major construction firms, including the building of the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup stadia. A total of 291 projects involving 21 firms are being investigated against an amount of R26 billion. These projects include major infrastructure projects such as stadia, roads, dams, mines and shopping centres.
IsiXhosa:
Kumnandi ke ukwazi ukuba olo rhwaphilizo loongxowa-nkulu lwabonwa, lwavezwa ngulo rhulumente ukhokelwa yi-ANC. Sithetha nje, ezo nkampani zenze oko kungcola zintyumpa-ntyumpeka ematyaleni. Xa iphela le nyanga sikuyo, ziza kuba sele zisaziwa nanguthathatha ukuba zeziphi na ezenze loo nto.
English:
Regarding the Council for the Built Environment, it is a Schedule 3A public entity and one of its main roles is to oversee the six built environment professional councils which regulate the professions of architects, engineers, landscape architects, quantity surveyors, project and construction managers, as well as property valuers. It is also responsible for the provision of strategic leadership to the six professional councils, and it must also ensure that the various professional councils operate and adhere to the industry's regulatory norms and standards.
Over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, the CBE plans to focus on the following: the roll-out of built environment career awareness programmes, as well as maths and science support programmes in schools; school support programmes through awareness campaigns and workshops to support academic staff within universities; upgrading internal infrastructure that will assist the research department to become an efficient knowledge hub for the built environment; initiating mentorship projects to assess and accredit mentors within the CBE; to continue the engagement with African counterparts and expand partnerships within the built environment professions through current international memoranda of understanding; and, lastly, reporting quarterly on the three public functions of the professional councils, namely, professional registration, appeals and continued professional development.
The portfolio committee has noted with concern the delay in the reintroduction of the Built Environment Professions Bill, which was withdrawn from Parliament in the 2008-09 financial year due to the need for further consultation. The department has indicated that the Bill would be reintroduced in the 2013-14 financial year.
In terms of the Independent Development Trust, the IDT's strategic goals articulate its commitment and responsibility to promote sustainable development in poor and marginalised areas through delivery of integrated social infrastructure. The IDT aims to achieve these strategic goals by using resources in a prudent and efficient manner.
Programme 1, which is integrated service delivery, focuses on enhancing the government's delivery capacity and integrated social infrastructure development. Programme 2, which is administration, concentrates mainly on the administration matters, which include governance issues, such as performance planning and management, risk management, corporate governance, sustainability, monitoring and evaluation.
A total of 50 new or replacement schools have been targeted for the 2013-14 financial year, which is an increase of 10 schools from the previous year. The quarterly report indicates a gradual increase in the number of schools completed, which is a much appreciated achievement.
To the Minister and the Deputy Minister ...
IsiXhosa:
... ngesiXhosa sithi ningadinwa nangomso [soldier on] ingakumbi kumaqobo namaqobokazana asebenza kwisebe namashishini karhulumente. Xa kusetyenzwa ngenene kuyaliwa, kuyahlatywana. Thina siyikomiti sifuna ukubona inguqu kwiSebe lezeMisebenzi yoLuntu, intetho ethi ...
English:
"South Africa works because Public Works works" should be a reality.
Lastly, to the Minister and Deputy Minister, we really appreciate what you are doing for the department. I will quote Dr David M Burns, who wrote:
Aim for success, not perfection. Never give up your right to be wrong, because then you will lose the ability to learn new things and move forward with your life and your work.
The ANC supports the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr P J Groenewald / Nb/Checked by Nobuntu /
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 8
Ms N D NGCENGWANE
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ek wil begin deur vir die agb Minister te sê dat ek eintlik baie verbaas is dat hy vanoggend so sag behandel word deur die opposisie. Dit lyk vir my die Kaapse weer het hulle aangetas.
Ek wil vir u sê, agb Minister, dat die weer my nie aangetas het nie. Ek wil ook nie praat oor 2030 en wensdenkery en alles wat daarmee gepaard gaan nie. Agb Minister, ek wil praat oor nou. Ek wil praat oor die skandalige wyse waarop die belastingbetaler se geld gesteel word en dit dan toegesmeer word. Agb Minister, ek wil spesifiek praat oor Nkandla. U is die departement wat die ondersoek doen. Ek wil nou vir u sê dat u skuil agter die argument dat dit 'n nasionale sleutelpunt is en dat u dit daarom nie bekend kan maak nie. Agb Minister, ek sal vir u sê wanneer daar 'n sekerheidsbreuk by 'n nasionale sleutelpunt is – wanneer mense toegang kry sonder dat hulle magtiging het, soos in Waterkloof, want nou is almal bewusteloos oor wie magtiging gegee het ― dít is 'n sekerheidsbreuk.
Dit is nie 'n sekerheidsbreuk, agb Minister, as u moet bekendmaak wie die persone is wat die pryse gelaai het, wat die korrupsie gepleeg het, en die belastingbetaler se geld gesteel het nie. Dit is nie 'n sekerheidsbreuk as daardie mense vervolg word en as hulle in die tronk toegesluit word nie. Dit is nie 'n sekerheidsbreuk nie. Ek wil vandag vir die agb Minister sê: Minister, as u dit nie bekendmaak nie, dan is u aandadig aan korrupsie. U is aandadig daaraan dat mense kan wegkom met die belastingbetaler se geld wat hulle gesteel het.
Ek wil verder gaan, agb Minister. As u dit nie bekendmaak nie, dan wil ek vir u sê dan maak u die President, agb Zuma, ook medepligtig aan hierdie wanbesteding en die diefstal van die belastingbetaler se geld. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil vandag vir u sê u moet mooi gaan dink oor of u dit aan die belastingbetaler wil bekendmaak of nie. Dit is nie u geld nie, agb Minister. Dit is nie die departement se geld nie. Dit is die belastingbetaler se geld, waarvoor hulle hard moet werk, om aan hierdie regering te betaal. Dit is net billik en regverdig dat daardie belastingbetalers weet wat met hul belastinggeld gemaak word.
Al die agb lede wat hier sit, en die een wat so agter daar teen die kombuis sit en raas ook, ek wil vir u sê dat dit u taak en u plig is om te verseker dat die belastingbetaler se geld korrek aangewend word om Suid-Afrika te bou, nie om meer as R200 miljoen vir sekuriteit te betaal nie. Agb Minister, ek sê vir u om soveel te betaal vir sekuriteit is snert. Ek weet darem so 'n bietjie van sekerheid af.
English:
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon Groenewald, your time has expired.
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Ek sê vir u dis snert dat daar soveel van die belastingbetaler se geld betaal word net vir sekuriteit!
English:
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon Groenewald, your time has expired.
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Daarom sê ek vir u dat u dit moet openbaar, agb Minister. Anders is u medepligtig. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell): Hon Groenewald, you must please respect your time at the podium.
Mr S N SWART
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 8
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G T Snell)
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, in response to a question from the ACDP, the Special Investigating Unit estimated that some R30 billion is lost to the state annually through fraud and corruption in state procedure.
Afrikaans:
Ek wil aansluit by wat mnr Groenewald nou gesê het oor ons plig as parlementariërs om verantwoording te doen oor die geld wat spandeer word.
English:
In this regard, Minister, you said that collusion and corruption are endemic. You have admitted that and, yes, Deputy Minister, it is also in the private sector, and we fully concede that as well. You have also said that a deputy director-general has been dismissed and a former director-general as well as the head of property management, so steps are being taken with disciplinary proceedings. However, is it sufficient? I think that is the concern – whether it is sufficient. There is still a long way to go.
We appreciate that the rebuilding of Public Works is a process, but should we have allowed it to reach this stage in the first place? Clearly, we also say that in the private sector there is collusion between the public sector and the private sector. Both need to be investigated. We in the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development have also taken a strong stance and have sought to assist the law enforcement agencies, particularly the Special Investigating Unit. Now, it does not have sufficient capacity. Maybe that is something that government needs to look at, that we, as MPs, have to look at, to strengthen the capacity. Just think if we doubled the capacity of the Special Investigating Unit. They are investigating more than R30 billion. They could recover that amount, and that is something that I have said continuously, and it is something that needs to be done.
The SIU has investigated 40 cases related to the department, of which 13 were finalised and the unit's recommendations implemented. One of those cases was the Braamfontein and Johannesburg leases. Well done for recovering R1,8 billion. That is significant, and we must not forget that, as well. Again, the question is why we reached that stage in the first place. The SIU, as you pointed out as well, is investigating the Prestige Portfolio. Again, it is commendable that it is being investigated, but why do we have that in the first place? I think is what Mr Groenewald was trying to say.
As far as the Nkandla issue is concerned, we agree that it is scandalous that such an excessive amount was spent. I think that we are in agreement – the infant task team has already pointed out irregular expenditure, and it is an ongoing investigation – that it is scandalous, and we would trust that once that investigation is completed, that officials, or any consultant or building contractor, whether private or public sector, are held to account and that those funds are recovered. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, as far as the Expanded Public Works Programme is concerned, let us also look at the positive aspects. That is a very positive aspect. Yes, whilst we are on record as saying that the state must create the environment and that it is for business to create jobs, here is an example that is being followed internationally. Where we have recession, it is important for the government also to assist. I think that is a very commendable programme. Yes, there might be areas where it hasn't worked properly, but it is helping the poorest of the poor with employment.
Lastly, we from the ACDP would like to thank all you hard-working officials who are working hard to turn around this department; those of you who are not involved in corrupt activities but are good stewards of the state assets. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms C Q MADLOPHA /Mia / TAKE ENDS AT 11:53:59
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 9
Mr S N SWART
Ms C Q MADLOPHA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, other Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, hon members, countrymates, ladies and gentlemen, the context of this Budget Vote debate needs to be analysed, as public works and respective programmes do not exist in a vacuum, but rather as an integrated plan and strategy to address both the policy mandate of the department, but critically, the policy objectives of the ANC.
As an integral part of the second phase of our transition from apartheid to a national democratic society, we need to accelerate growth and intensify our programme of economic transformation. The Department of Public Works has a key role to play in this regard. Over the next five years, the ANC will take decisive and resolute action to overcome the triple challenge of poverty, inequality and unemployment, which are at the heart of South Africa's socioeconomic challenges. We intend to transform the structure of the economy through industrialisation; broad-based black economic empowerment, BBBEE; addressing the basic needs of our people, including women, people with disability and youth; and strengthening and expanding the role of the state and the role of state-owned enterprises.
Our most effective weapon in the campaign against poverty is the creation of jobs. The challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality require that accelerated growth takes place in the context of an effective strategy of redistribution that builds a new and more equitable growth path.
The Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, is one of the initiatives agreed to at the Growth and Development Summit in June 2003, as an initiative of the ANC government. The aim is to bridge the gap between the growing economy and the large numbers of unskilled and unemployed people who have yet to fully enjoy the benefits of economic development.
The EPWP is one of the government's array of programmes aimed at ensuring the creation of work opportunities and the provision of training for the unskilled, marginalised and unemployed people of South Africa. Its key focus is to provide poverty and income relief through short-term and full-time equivalent jobs for the unemployed. Government launched the EPWP in May 2004 to promote economic growth and create sustainable development. At the official launch of the EPWP on 18 May 2004, President Thabo Mbeki said:
Today, we would like to say to all those people who are going to be at the centre of the implementation of this programme that we will not accept any failures, that we have made the firm commitment to confront the challenges of poverty and joblessness and that we have made the solemn pledge to do everything possible to achieve the goal of a better life for all our people.
During EPWP Phase 1, the programme surpassed its Cabinet-mandated target of 1 million work opportunities a year ahead of schedule, with 1,6 million work opportunities, created at the end of the scheduled initial five-year period between 2004 and 2009. The programme aims to achieve its objectives and targets through the delivery of public and community services. Public bodies from the national, provincial, local spheres of government and the non-state sector are expected to collaborate with the national Department of Public Works. As recently as at the ANC's Mangaung Conference, it was resolved that one of the 15 pillars of the Polokwane Conference, namely programmes that directly absorb the unemployed, including Expanded Public Works Programmes, continue to define the ANC's perspective on economic transformation.
In his 2009 state of the nation address, His Excellency President Jacob Zuma said:
As part of the contribution to the income of the poor, the target for one million work opportunities, through the Expanded Public Works Programme, was attained in 2008, a year earlier than envisaged in the 2004 electoral mandate. This has created the possibility massively to expand this programme and improve its quality.
EPWP Phase 2, which covers the period from 2009 to 2014, aims to create 4,5 million work opportunities for poor and unemployed people of South Africa, thereby contributing to the Millennium Development Goals, MDGs, of halving unemployment by 2014. Hon Chair, through its successes and achievements so far, the EPWP has made a positive change in many people's lives. Partners in Development was established to empower the people of Stedham to recultivate their land, so that in the long term the beneficiaries can farm their own maize fields and sustain themselves through selling maize. The project employs 150 EPWP non-state sector beneficiaries.
I want to share what Mrs Zulu, a beneficiary of this project, said:
I am happy that I am working for something that will sustain all of us. We are removing alien plants and roots so that we can farm our fields. We have been working on this land for two years. Raising a child alone is not easy. The stipend from EPWP made sure I could take care of my child, and I also save money to buy a fridge.
The EPWP is making a real difference in the people's lives. EPWP and its achievement from the 2011-12 financial year, meant that more than 2 million work opportunities have been created since the start of the second phase. This achievement positions the EPWP as one of the key catalysts in the ANC-led government's job creation drive. The programme created a lot of job opportunities in the 2011-12 financial year. I can indicate that 66 were under the Community Work Programme, and the jobs that were created were not only temporary jobs, but also full-time jobs. The use of local labour in housing and infrastructure development contributed significantly to job creation and skills development.
The programme easily reached its target for women and youth. The target for women was 50%, but was surpassed by 60%, as well as in the case of the youth. More emphasis must be put on the people with disabilities because the target that was set was not achieved. The challenge around this particular programme is that those people that are receiving social grants are disabled and they are not allowed to enter into the EPWP. We must look at the policy because it is a stumbling block, as well as the issue of including people with disabilities in the EPWP.
In 2011-12 financial year, eight new EPWP District Steering Committees were created, in addition to the 11 EPWP operational District Steering Committees already in existence. Furthermore, in the previous debate, the number of participants from municipalities was low, and we are glad to announce that 277 out of 278 municipalities have signed protocol agreements, committing them to achieving their EPWP targets. The incentive grant model was revised to give rural municipalities easier access to grants in order to increase. Hon Minister, we appreciate that the rural municipalities were not participating in this particular programme because of the model that was in place at the time.
The EPWP spending focus over the medium term will be on creating work opportunities and providing training for unskilled, marginalised and unemployed people. Performance-based incentive allocations disburse funds to provinces, municipalities and nongovernmental organisations based on set job creation. This entails incentivising eligible public bodies and nongovernmental organisations to increase job creation efforts in these sectors through the use of labour-intensive methods in line with the Expanded Public Works Programme's guidelines. Projects include municipal and provincial Expanded Public Works Programme projects for collecting refuse; beach cleaning; clearing alien vegetation; pothole or road mending; and painting of government buildings. These performance-based incentives have contributed to the Expanded Public Works Programme's overall performance of having created approximately 2,1 million work opportunities against a target of 2 million, and 595 000 full-time equivalents against a target of 833 000.
Given South Africa's persisting poverty and unemployment problem, it is hardly surprising that the EPWP is seeing massive upscaling in order to continue to provide employment opportunities to poor and low-income households in the future. Naturally, this will require addressing many of the lessons learnt from the first and second phase of the EPWP, such as: the inadequate authority and co-ordination amongst different government departments, as well as the different spheres of government in charge of driving the programme; a lack of additional fiscal commitments where the programme is performing well; creating a continued demand for public employment interventions in all spheres of government that support upscaling job opportunities and income generation for those who are willing to work; ensuring that Public Works employment programmes remain labour intensive and avoid shifting to employment methods that avoid maximum labour intensity; and ensuring that the implementers of the EPWP are well capacitated and the Department of Public Works ensures that the implementers of this programme are monitored to see whether objectives of the EPWP are realised, training in particular.
We found, during our oversight, that the implementers are not focusing on the training. So, this is the issue that the department needs to focus on and monitor, going forward. We have also noted the high staff turnover, where the department trains people, and then they leave when they understand how to implement this particular matter. I think these are areas that the department needs to focus on.
Whilst it is difficult to assess, at this early stage of the second phase of EPWP, whether these challenges have been adequately addressed, it is encouraging to note that some of the problems like standardising the stipend, have been overcome. It is probable that the level of the upscale and the role of the EPWP will be determined by the overall growth rate of the economy. Given the gravity and extent of the global economic crisis that led to a slow gross domestic product growth and massive loss in jobs, public employment programmes will continue to play an important role in alleviating poverty; creating employment opportunities; and providing some of the income.
I must indicate that while we are dealing with this particular budget, I wish to comment on what the hon Dreyer has said. It the first time in the history of our country, that the DA has given credit where it is due. It is true, hon Dreyer, the department did have terrible challenges, as presented by the Minister himself to the portfolio committee. I agree with you that, as the portfolio committee, we are seeing great progress, unlike hon Sithole, who is saying that he is seeing nothing. His party was in power from 1970 up to 2004 in KwaZulu-Natal. We did not witness any progress with what they were doing.
I remember when we were amalgamating the assets from the previous black municipalities and the boroughs, when we were asking them about the assets, but there was nothing. They told us that there were no assets, including the cars. Today, he is talking about corruption, and that he is not seeing progress. It means that some of the people in the committee sit and think and the others just sit, even when the report is being given. [Applause.] I think it is something that their parties really need to consider.
Ministers come and update us, but they know nothing; say nothing has been done. To hon Groenewald, the Nkandlda matter is still under investigation. It is this Minister who referred this matter to be investigated because the ANC is serious about rooting out corruption. That is why it is part of our priority, as the ANC. The public will know when this investigation has been finalised. There will be a report. It is our Minister who referred this matter for investigation, and you pretend as if you don't know that the ANC itself is investigating this corruption as part of their priorities. [Applause.]
I also want to agree with the hon member from Cope. [Interjections.] Yes, hon McIntosh. You are correct "mfana" we "nkosi" [prince] to say that it is only the Ministers of the ANC that can turn things around. [Interjections.] Yes, like the Department of Home Affairs and it is now happening in the Department of Public Works. You know the ANC is the only hope of the people of this country. It is the only organisation that will change the lives of the people for the better. So, there is no other organisation. Even in 2019, it will be the ANC. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, we are wholeheartedly agreeing with the hon Minister of Public Works when he said that the EPWP is the lead flagship of the department and it seeks to address the single greatest challenge facing South Africa today. Thank you, hon Chair. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member you had a point of order. What is your point of order?
Dr D T GEORGE: Chairperson, I wanted to alert you that the member's time was up. She did run over her time, as you pointed out. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members! We have very competent Table staff here in front us, who indicate to us when the time has expired. Let us allow them to do their work.
Mr M M SWATHE / KC//A N N(ed) / TAKE ENDS AT 12:12:13
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 10
Ms C Q MADLOPHA
Mr M M SWATHE: Chairperson, the DA noted a massive budget decrease for the Department of Public Works from R7,8 billion in 2012-13 financial year, to R6,1 billion in 2013-14 financial year. However, in the current 2013-14 financial year, the Department of Public Works decreased the budget allocation for the Expanded Public Works Programme.
According to Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, the Expanded Public Works Programme funds increased from R429 million to R1,9 billion in 2013-14 financial year. The department did not adequately use EPWP budget. Millions of rands were not actual spend. The increment of funds for the EPWP came as a result of the state of the nation address, which placed them as a vehicle designed to address persistently high levels of unemployment.
The President highlighted the EPWP as a programme that would help to absorb young people. The EPWP is expected to produce 4,5 million job opportunities by the end of 2014. So far, EPWP has created 2,6 million job opportunities since 2009. The programme must reach an additional 1,8 million in order to reach its target of 4,5 million job opportunities by 2014. The DA is asking if that is possible. Government has only created 2,6 million job opportunities in four years, but wants to tell the nation that it can create 1,8 million job opportunities in one year. The DA cautions that job opportunities are not actually real jobs.
The shifting of goalposts shows that the Department of Public Works admits that it was not going to meet its target. The new target of over 5 million job opportunities is also not going to be achieved. What happened to the labour-intensive jobs that we missed when we were doing our oversight?
The DA also questions whether EPWP jobs are sustainable and whether the people who participated in the EPWP can use the skills acquired to fend for themselves. The DA asks how many people who are graduates of the EPWP have created jobs for themselves and how many are employed by the private sector? [Interjections.] What is the target for the youth to be employed under EPWP? We would like to know whether the department has changed ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr M M SWATHE: We would like to know whether the department has changed temporary jobs to decent jobs when extending the target. What happened to municipalities that did not actually comply or utilise conditional grants? The DA is asking how government, through the EPWP, actually employs people.
Why is the EPWP always visible towards election time? Is the EPWP really making a meaningful impact on the unemployment rate? What skills do people really get from EPWP jobs? Can we confidently say that the EPWP changed the lives of the unemployed people forever? I believe the answer is a resounding no.
Sepedi:
Go ya ka pego ya Statistics SA ya tshekatsheko ya bašomi ya kotara ka kotara, tlhokego ya mešomo e nameletše ka diperesente tše 25,2. Se se ra gore batho ba 100 000 ba lobile mešomo. Taba ye e tliša palo ya batho bao ba hlokago mešomo go dimilione tše 4,6. DA e tla thekga mananeo kamoka ao a tlo go fa bahlaki mešomo ya mmakgonthe. E tla thekga tšwelopele ya naga ya ekonomi yeo e golago go hlola mešomo. Rena ba DA re bona lenaneo la rena la kgolo ya diperesente tše seswai e le lona leo le ka tlišago diphetogo tša nnete tša motheo go fediša tlhokego ya mešomo le bodiidi. Re re mmušo o swanetše go lwantšha bohloki, bodiidi le tlhokego ya mešomo ka go godiša ekonomi le go fa batho ba go ba le bokgoni mašeleng gore ba hlole mešomo.
DA e re thekgo ya mašeleng ya baswa go tšwa go mmušo e ka thuša gore baswa ba hwetše mešomo ya nnete yeo e tlo go ba fa bokgoni, tsebo le maitemogelo. DA e lemogile gore boramešomo ba nyaka bašomi bao ba na go le bokgoni, tsebo le maitemogelo. Bona ba thwala batho bao ka tshepho ya gore ba tla ba thuša dikgwebong, dikhamphaning - go dira mošomo ka bokgwari le bokgoni.
DA e re lenaneo la mmušo la mešomo le swanetše go hlahla baswa gore ba be le tsebo, bokgoni le maitemogelo. Batho bao ba šomilego go Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, ba swanetše go kgona go itirela ge ba e tšwa lenaneong leo. EPWP e swanetše go ba sediba sa tlhahlo go fa batho tsebo. Re re mmušo ke mmušo ka setšhaba. Bjale EPWP a e hlole mešomo ya mmakgonthe; a e fediše tlhokego ya mešomo; ga re rate go kitimiša dipalo mola setšhaba se sa holege. Rena ba DA re rata go bona EPWP e thwala batho go ya ka tsela ya maleba. Re rata go bona EPWP e tšwelapele le ge go se na dikgetho; e thuša bahlaki ba Afrika Borwa e sa kgetholle go ya ka boleloko bja mokgatlo wa dipolitiki.
DA e re bahlaki bao ba sa šomego, ke maikarabelo a mmušo go ba thuša le go ba fa thekgo ka dinako tšohle. DA e tshwenywa ke mehuta ya mešomo yeo e fiwago bahlaki lenaneong la EPWP, go swana le go ba topiša matlapa ge go dirwa tsela. Bao ba hweditšego dithentara ga ba na taba le go hlahla bašomi ba bona – ba nyaka fela go ikhumiša. Go na le dibaka tšeo mmušo o ka di šomišago go thwala bahloki; go swana le go tsošološa, go hlwekiša le go mpshafatša dithoto tša mmušo. DA e tla thuša ka go ba lentšu la bao ba hlokago ka dinako kamoka.
Re rata go bontšha gore seo re se bonego ge re be re tšwetše ka ntle, re ile ditekodišišong - re hweditše e le gore ka nnete batho ba gaborena bao ba thwetšwego mo go EPWP, ga ba fiwe tlhahlo yeo e tseneletšego. Bao ba swerego mešomo ba tloge ba dira bonnete bja gore bao ba šomago go EPWP ga ba humane bokgoni bja go tšwetša maphelo a bona pele. Mmušo wa ANC o re o beile pele lenaneo la EPWP eupša ge re le lebelela ga lena le seo ba se bolelago mo go lona. [Nako e fedile.] Ke a leboga.
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA / LMM/.../TM [English]/ Sep Mm / TAKE ENDS AT 12:19:34
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 11
Mr M M SWATHE
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, Mr Thulas Nxesi, hon Deputy Minister, and other Deputy Ministers who are here, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the ANC policy document, Ready to Govern, of 1992, and the RDP of 1994 shaped the socioeconomic content of the programme of Public Works in the first decade of our democratic dispensation.
The policy perspective provided the framework that outlined our country's perspective on the trajectory that the Public Works programme should pursue. This spoke to the essence of the ANC's economic policy of creating a strong and dynamic economy that will be directed towards eliminating poverty and the extreme inequalities generated by apartheid; democratising the economy and creating employment opportunities for all South Africans; and initiating growth and development to improve the quality of life of all the people, especially the poor.
The Budget Vote of the Department of Public Works has to address priorities of stabilising leadership, working towards a clean audit, finalising the state's Immovable Asset Register, improving finance and the Supply Chain Management unit, addressing the challenges of the Property Management Trading Entity and improving human resource management.
The steps taken by the department to improve its financial controls are mostly welcomed. That will improve the financial performance of the department from a disclaimer to a clean audit. This will not be an event, however; it will be a process.
Infrastructural development is one of the jobs drivers identified by the National Growth Path framework. In 2011-12, the amount of R1 billion was budgeted for infrastructure development, but the department failed to spend the allocation. There was an underspending of R425 million, which was a matter for concern, as infrastructure projects are the ones that create jobs and reduce poverty and unemployment. Through infrastructure development, people must be able to put bread on their tables. Therefore, no underspending will be tolerated on infrastructure development.
Further underspending was noticed on machinery and equipment – R3,9 million in the 2011-12 financial year. In 2010-11, the budget allocation of the department was R7 364 797 000. Unspent funds amounted to R749,714 million, which has increased by R18,593 million to R768,307 million of unspent funds in 2011-12, of the budget of R7 829 744 000. We do not expect any underspending while citizens are waiting for service delivery.
While we are not going to tolerate any underspending, we are also not going to tolerate overspending, as both are against the prescripts of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. Overspending on the compensation of employees and goods and services must be minimised. The PFMA, which was passed in March 1999, is the latest piece of financial and fiscal legislation required by Chapter 3 to transform the financial and fiscal arrangements. It further legislated a series of sanctions to ensure compliance by administration and politicians. Therefore, compliance, compliance, compliance – not malicious compliance – is necessary. If there is failure to comply, steps must be taken.
The steps taken by the department, through the Minister, instituting investigations and suspending those officials who are found to be wrong-doers, are mostly welcomed. The suspension should not take a long time, as it would be fruitless expenditure paying people who are not at work. This is unless it is "no work, no pay", to save the public purse.
Minister, whip where you are supposed to whip, fire where you are supposed to fire, and reward or praise where you are supposed to praise. We will support you 100%, as this committee. [Applause.]
In 2009, a commitment was made by the ANC. It was not said by someone else somewhere that initiatives should be taken to fight corruption – initiatives such as review of the state procurement system to ensure better value for money from state spending, the vetting of the supply chain management personnel in government departments, and the involvement of businesspeople in fighting corruption by implementing anticorruption programmes – as fraud and corruption cripple service delivery. This shows that the ANC is not quiet about fraud and corruption.
The ANC has the capacity to lead and to deal with issues and to make decisions. The ANC does not need any cautioning from the DA, but the ANC can caution the DA. The Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, started in 2004, with the first phase up to 2009. Then the second phase started. It was not through elections.
IsiZulu:
Lungu elihloniphekile u-Swathe, angazi Baba ukuthi ukhuluma ngani...
English:
... because you are a member of this committee. Information is power.
IsiZulu:
Uyithanda kakhulu i-DA, asazi uthi yakwenzelani ngoba thina yasihluphekisa kangaka. [Ubuwelewele.]
English:
The human resource status of the department reflects that 86% of the posts are occupied, and 943 posts – which is 14% – are vacant. In 2011-12, the department operated with an unstable top management structure. There were many people in acting positions. Progress was made by filling 1 286 positions. Is this not progress? There is still a high vacancy rate and a high number of resignations, which hinders service delivery. There is a need for the department to do a skills audit to check the skills that are available, skills that they need, but that are not available, and to review the organisational structure to ensure professional, skilled personnel are being recruited, as this department is mostly a technical one.
Overuse of consultants by departments is a matter for concern. Eight consultants were appointed for e-works and four for paper trails. Consultants must be used where there is a lack of professional and technical skills, for instance, in the compilation of the asset register. Proper terms of reference must be developed and the consultants closely monitored.
The hon President, in his state of the nation address in 2012, indicated that all government departments were directed to ensure that the target set several years ago of employing 2% of people with disabilities in the public sector is being met. The department is still grappling to achieve that. Let this matter be taken seriously. Let the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, be involved in the recruitment process. It is true that there is nothing about them without them being involved. Let us make sure that in the next financial year, you report progress on this matter.
Former President Nelson Mandela once said "the purpose of the budget is to bring a better life for all; it is about transforming our country together." Therefore, the budget plays a crucial role in the democratic process, as the budget is for the people.
As Parliament, we allocate resources to departments to enable them to execute their mandate by providing services to the people of South Africa to better their lives. We therefore expect the resources to be used efficiently, effectively and economically for the benefit of the citizens, not individuals.
If other members of the committee come to meetings as they wish and are sometimes not part of oversight visits, they will not see or hear about progress made by the department. They will come here and talk about their dreams. They dream about being in power in 2019 and do not focus on the performance of the department. What a bad dream! [Interjections.]
Progress has been made by the department in making buildings accessible to people with disabilities, although there is still a lot to be done. Centralisation of Prestige, which resulted in a saving of R18 million, is progress. Development of the turnaround strategy to address the challenges within the department is progress. Progress has been made in completing some investigations. These will show whether any money was stolen, or not. Disciplinary action taken against officials who were found to be wrongdoers is progress.
Improvements made to better the lives of people through the EPWP and infrastructural development is progress. Provision of skills to the youth and women through the EPWP and other programmes, such as learnership internships, and the provision of bursaries to the previously disadvantaged students are progress.
The appointment of the director-general and the chief financial officer, where the posts were vacant for some time, is progress. [Interjections.] What is progress? [Interjections.] The department has been able to pay some service providers on time, although there is still a lot to be done. Is that not progress? [Interjections.]
Those with eyes will see that improvements have been made by the department. If they are not willing to see, they will not see. Let the department move on. Hon Minister, do not be scared by the noise. It is an indication that the department is working. Do not lose focus; you are on course. What worries the moon when the dog barks? If people are making unnecessary noise, continue working. [Interjections.]
While there are successes, as we have mentioned, there are challenges that the department needs to consider: high staff turnover, which results in the loss of organisational memory; lack of monitoring of the implementation of infrastructure projects; insufficient budget to recruit and retain professional staff; shifting of funds within programmes due to poor planning; failure of client departments to pay the Department of Public Works for the provision of services rendered on their behalf, which impacts negatively on the finances of the department and on service delivery; lack of compliance with various policies and legislation; underspending, overspending, fruitless and wasteful expenditure; and nonalignment of strategic plan, annual performance and budget.
Those are the issues that need to be taken into consideration. If you work, challenges will be there. However, challenges need solutions in order to do things well.
The ANC has, and always will, put our people first by investing in job creation, housing, education, skills development and growing the economy. The department has some committed personnel who can turn the tide and restore the image of the department.
Together, we can do more. All hands on deck. Citizens are waiting. The ANC will continue to intensify its efforts to provide services and opportunities to South Africans. The ANC is the only hope for South Africans. [Applause.]
Hon Dreyer ...
IsiZulu:
...uyazenzisa; iqiniso uyalazi.
English:
You know, you contradict yourself. You agree with us that there is progress, but ...
IsiZulu:
...uyajikajika. kunengoma ethi, "uyajikeleza indlela awuyiboni." Ihaba-ke ukuthi...
English:
... by 2019 the DA will be in power. Not now, not tomorrow, not in the future. The DA must just forget it. Know very well and accept that the ANC is in power, and the ANC will reign forever.
An HON MEMBER: Jesus is coming soon! [Interjections.]
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA: You know ...
IsiZulu:
...sihlala siphupha; noJosefa waphupha. [Uhleko.] Kunengoma ebesiyicula sisakhula ebeyithi, "Ngiphuphe ngidatshukelwe, nezicathulo zibhobokile" kube izicathulo zikhona, zizintsha sha! Ngakho-ke ne-DA nayo iyaziphuphela nje.
English:
... the DA is just dreaming. You know, while you are dreaming, the department must work. Unfortunately ...
IsiZulu:
Amaphupho abo ngeke afezeke. Mhlonishwa Sithole, sihlobo sami, usixoxela nje inganekwane...
English:
... about the disbandment of this department ...
IsiZulu:
Ukube besinomshanelo ngabe sithathe izinti sahlohla ekhanda ngoba kumilisa izimpondo ukuxoxa inganekwane emini.
English:
That will not happen. Our responsibility, as this committee, is to assist the department to deal with the challenges that the department is facing. All of us here have promised South Africans a better life for all. All of us ... [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: But you are in power. Your party is in power. That is the difference.
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA: ... and we will be in power forever!
An HON MEMBER: So, you have to deliver!
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA: I know that the ANC will rule forever. That is not a dream. [Interjections.] I know that both Ministers and officials who are committed within the department will improve the performance of the department. That is not a dream. Let us give them a chance. Let us wait and see. We will see wonders. [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, we all speak with one voice. There is progress. We acknowledge the challenges that need to be attended to for the department to improve its performance. Therefore, on behalf of the ANC, the giant organisation, the organisation that leads, that lives, I want to say we support the Budget Vote of the Department of Public Works. I thank you. [Applause.]
THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS/Robyn – Eng//ZLU LIM// TAKE ENDS AT 12:34:40
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – COMMITTEE ROOM E249
Wednesday, 8 May 2013 Take: 12
Mrs P C NGWENYA-MABILA
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI YOLUNTU: Sihlalo, ndiyabulela kohloniphekileyo uMnu uMcIntosh we Cope nohloniphekileyo uMnu Gaehler we-UDM. Ndibabulela ngokuncoma nokugxeka apho kufanelekileyo, begxeka xa bebona ukuba kukho iimpawu ezinokugxekwa, bencoma xa bebona ukuba kukho inkqubela phambili. Loo nto iyalakha isebe nathi singaBaphathiswa iyasiqinisa. Kuyacaca ke nto kaGaehler ukuba uthetha ngento oyaziyo xa uthetha ngokwakhiwa. Uyayazi ingxaki yoonokontraka abancinane. Kudala ke usinika iingcebiso ezisakhayo. Ndiyanibulela kakhulu. Kuyavakala futhi ukuba nobabini umongo lo eninawo nomthombo wenu usuka phi, usuka embuthweni omkhulu. [Kwahlekwa.] Iyavakala loo nto. Yiyo loo nto nikwazi ukuthetha kakuhle namhlanje.
Ukuba ulilungu elifana nohloniphekileyo uBawo uSithole we-IFP, nokuba ulilungu elinyanisekileyo nelikukhumbulayo konke ebelikuthethe ngaphambili phaya ekomitini, lize liphinde apha namhlanje xa libona iinkokeli ze-IFP liphike konke ebelikuvumile ngaphambili...
English:
It is dishonest and disingenuous, Mr Sithole, to sit in a committee, appreciate progress, but come here to a Budget Vote debate and disown everything that you have been saying.
IsiXhosa:
Awunyanisekanga...
English:
...because you are denying everything that you endorsed in the committee.
IsiXhosa:
Ufike apha udilike, untlantlathe uthethe into ongayiva nokuyiva wena kuqala. Lihlazo ke elo.
Nawe Mam' uDreyer ohloniphekileyo, siyakubulela ngamaphupha akho onyaka wama-2019 nowama-2030. [Kwahlekwa.] Uyabona ke, kwiindwendwe zam ndimeme nomfundisi. Andazi nokuba uyaprofeta, kodwa ndabagqibela eBhayibhileni abaprofeti, okanye uyabhula njengegqirha. Zange ndive ke ukuba kukho igqirha lomlungu. [Kwahlekwa.] Andazi ukuba yintoni oyibhulayo.
Afrikaans:
Agb Groenewald, die ondersoek is nog nie klaar nie, meneer. Jy moet wag. [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
We are going to give the results. There are a number of processes that have been put in place. How I wish that people could talk like the ANC members have spoken. The ACDP member, hon Swart; I could not agree with him more in the way he has been analysing. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 12:41.
NS/END OF TAKE./ 12:38:35
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