Hansard: NCOP: Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 22 May 2013


No summary available.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 173




The Council met at 14:01.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 173

Start of Day


Mrs R M RASMENI: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the Council-

(1) notes with profound sadness the death of 23 initiates who died in Kwamhlanga, Verena, Middelburg, Kwaggafontein and Belfast in Mpumalanga;

(2) further notes that the initiates, aged between 15 and 21, died from excessive bleeding and dehydration;

(3) also notes that the police have since changed their case from inquest to murder;

(4) expresses its profound outrage at the manner in which this case was handled by the authorities and community leaders in the affected areas; and

(5) calls on the authorities and traditional leadership in Mpumalanga to ensure that those responsible are brought to book and to ensure that incidents of this nature are prevented in future.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 173


Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the Council-

(1) notes-

(a) with great concern that unemployment increased from 24,9% to 25,2%, according to the Quarterly Labour Force Survey;

(b) that the South African government's goal - the ANC-led government - to create 5 million new jobs by 2020, which is approximately 710 000 per annum, is similar to someone claiming that he can make water flow from stone;

(c) that the ANC-led government is requested by the DA to learn to come to grips with reality and stop promising people heaven on earth;

(d) that the DA also requests the ANC-led government to intervene more quickly with its alliance partners to seek other avenues rather than threaten strikes and protests, like the new threat from the union representing South African platinum mine workers to bring Africa's biggest economy to a standstill; and

(2) debates the influence of strikes and protests on the economy of South Africa.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Those were the only two hands that were up. I am moving on. Hon members who have just put their hands up, are you doing so on the same point? Your hands were not up earlier. Remember, we have a very long day today. Do you have Motions?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: I want to have a bite of the cherry, Deputy Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Talk through your microphone and let me hear what you are trying to say.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, I said that I want a bite of the cherry. If it is possible, can I also ...


Mr K A SINCLAIR: Thank you.


Mr V M MANZINI: Thank you, Deputy Chair. I want to move a Motion without Notice.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Use your microphone, please.

Mr V M MANZINI: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice ...


Mr V M MANZINI: That is why I withdrew ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member ...


... ngicela ulalele baba, angikakafiki lapho. [Please listen, sir. I am not there yet.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 174



(Draft Resolution)

Mr V M MANZINI: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes that –

(a) after the problems over the delivery of textbooks, a Cape Town company has developed a cellphone book reading application to assist learners and teachers with English literature;

(b) the reading application book was launched to MXit users on Friday by Native, a digital specialist company;

(c) application developer Levon Rivers wanted to have a product that would be cheap and accessible to most South African cellphone users;

(d) MXit is the biggest social network in the country, with 7,3 million users, and it is also locally developed;

(2) recognises that from an educational perspective, they are starting with the classics and plan to extend to set works and textbooks in the future; and

(3) acknowledges that the most effective way to address South Africans' poor literacy rate is to ensure that learners have access to books.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 174



(Draft Resolution)

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) debates the attempt by Peter Marais, the reluctant politician of the coloured people, to lead this country back into the political abyss of apartheid policies and homeland architecture;

(2) recommends that the so-called leaders of the coloured race be called to order through the Human Rights Commission before they even start mobilising people against the letter and spirit of our Constitution;

(3) notes that the Coloured Empowerment Movement is a direct challenge to the very real issues of social inclusion and alienation that the people who were classified, or would have been classified, as coloured face in the democratic South Africa;

(4) further notes that the rich but tragic history of slavery, genocide, oppression, exploitation and exclusion of the coloured people will become a potential flashpoint for national discontent of other minority groups and for possible genocide; and

(5) recognises that all the identities we have, whether based on perceived notions of race, on language or any other signifier, are historical categories, constructed by a divisionist mentality, caused by antisocial mobilisation and that it is duty bound to pronounce on this serious matter.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] In light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 174



(Draft Resolution)

Ms M W MAKGATE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes the report of four Eastern Cape universities who got together and united in marching against violence against women;

(2) further notes that-

(a) Rhodes University, the University of Fort Hare, the Walter Sisulu University and the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University academics, staff members, members of the community and students came out in their numbers in a march against gender-based violence and the persistent number of people who are viciously raped and killed in the Eastern Cape;

(b) the universities are uniting in the view that communities need to wage a concerted fight against gender-based violence in our communities, including members of the academic community such as students and staff; and

(3) commends this great initiative, which seeks to raise awareness of gender-based violence against women and children and, at the same time, promotes the fight against the scourge of violence against vulnerable groups.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 174



(Draft Resolution)

Mr T L MAKUNYANE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes with shock reports of a Western Cape school that was forced to postpone its examinations due to vandalism;

(2) further notes that-

(a) a Valhalla Park school is being systematically stripped by vandals, who have left every classroom without lights, toilets without water and the school feeding scheme without essential supplies;

(b) pupils who rely on the school feeding scheme returned home hungry because pots had been stolen and stoves stripped for parts, while some classrooms have gaping holes in their ceilings and doors have been removed in order to steal the hinges;

(3) condemns this barbaric act of crime, which seeks to deny children their right to learn in a safe and conducive environment; and

(4) calls upon the provincial department of education to ensure that the school is properly secured and repaired and that the local police are tasked with waging a fearless war against those who vandalise the school.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 174



(Draft Resolution)

Ms M P THEMBA: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes that the late renowned radio and television presenter Vuyo Mbuli, who died on Saturday after a pulmonary embolism, will be given a state funeral on Friday and will be laid to rest at the West Park cemetery in Johannesburg, where national heroes are buried;

(2) takes this opportunity to congratulate the government for recognising the massive role played by Vuyo Mbuli in South Africa; and

(3) conveys, together with the rest of the nation, its profound condolences to the Mbuli family, especially his children and wife.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 175



(Draft Resolution)

Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes the government's idea of training all public officials, which was confirmed by Minister for the Public Service and Administration, Ms Lindiwe Sisulu, when she was speaking to academics in Sandton, north of Johannesburg on Monday;

(2) further notes that the Minister indicated that the 1,6 million public servants will soon belong to a single Public Service and that each one will need to be retrained into a passionate and professional public servant.

(3) also notes that all directors-general would have to pass the school exams with the intention of linking promotion to performance; and

(4) commends Minister Sisulu for reviving this great idea of training and retraining the public servants, firstly for their own development and motivation and secondly and most importantly, for better public interaction and adequate service delivery.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 175



(Draft Resolution)

Mrs A N D QIKANI: Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes the reports of water projects that got a huge cash injection in areas of the Eastern Cape province;

(2) further notes that the Department of Water Affairs plans to spend about R280 million on small projects after conducting feasibility studies on projects such as the Nahoon Dam, East Coast Bulk Water Supply and Alfred Nzo Bulk Water Supply;

(3) also notes that the feasibility study at Nahoon Dam will cost R150 000 and will start next month;

(4) acknowledges that the project is expected to be completed in the next five years, is estimated at R320 million and would double the plant's current production capacity;

(5) further acknowledges that six existing water plants in Alfred Nzo Bulk Water Supply will get an upgrade and the department plans to spend R500 000 on a feasibility study on this project;

(6) applauds this great initiative by the Department of Water Affairs, which seeks to restore the dignity of the people by delivering a basic human right; and

(7) appeals to the officials responsible to treat these projects as priority by meeting the timeframes.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 175



(Draft Resolution)

Mr D D GAMEDE: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes the profound story of a 17-year-old courageous girl of Mashonamini Trust near Hazyview in Mpumalanga, who has been looking after her three siblings - aged five, 10 and 14 - since their mother died in October 2010;

(2) further notes that for the last three years the 17-year-old teenager would wake up as early as five o'clock in the morning to bathe her sibling and ensure that they are ready for school;

(3) takes this opportunity to express its profound appreciation to the millions of South Africans who have offered to assist the teenager and her siblings;

(4) expresses its profound outrage to the irresponsible and heartless father of the children, who has vanished; and

(5) also notes that the family of the mother, who are based in the Eastern Cape, had been aware of the situation of the children since the funeral of their mother, but chose not to do anything to assist them.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon members, the time for this exercise is actually over, but because I'm left with ... [Interjections.] Hon Worth, I haven't finished explaining. There are two names left, so they can present their Motions without Notice.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 175



(Draft Resolution)

Mr F ADAMS: Deputy Chair, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes reports of another top official in the Western Cape premier's administration who has bitten the dust just weeks after a senior official quit amid tensions between him and the premier;

(2) further notes that a provincial director-general was moved from his position to rejoin the City of Cape Town. The then Mayor of the City of Cape Town brought him along, elevated and rewarded him by appointing him to head the administration as director-general when she took over as the premier of the Western Cape; and

(3) takes this opportunity to condemn the heartless conduct by the premier of the Western Cape, who micromanages the Mayor, her cabinet and the whole administration of the City of Cape Town and the Western Cape and deals harshly with whoever challenges her decisions and actions.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Is there any objection? [Interjections.] In light of the objection, the Motion may not be proceeded with. The Motion without Notice will now become a Notice of Motion.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 175



(Draft Resolution)

Mr D A WORTH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes and congratulate the fantastic, stupendous, wonderful and talented Cheetahs Rugby Team from the Free State ... [Interjections.] [Laughter.] ... who won their game last Saturday against the dangerous Australian Reds Squad by 27 points to 13;

(2) further notes that after losing against the Hurricanes the previous week, the Cheetahs are still second in the South African conference and stand a chance to overtake the Bulls at the top;

(3) acknowledges that the Cheetahs have a chance to qualify for the play-offs, with a bye still to come; and

(4) must continue the onslaught to consolidate their standing on the table.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there an objection to the motion? [Interjections.] In light of the objection, the Motion may not be proceeded with. The Motion without Notice will become a Notice of Motion.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 175



(Draft Resolution)

Ms M G BOROTO: Deputy Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Council:

That Rule 239(1), which provides inter alia that the consideration of a Bill may not commence before at least three working days have lapsed since the committee's report was tabled, be suspended for the purposes of the consideration of the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill [B 30D – 2012] on Wednesday, 22 May 2013.

Question put: That the motion be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, North West.

AGAINST: Western Cape.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 176




The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Order! Before I call the Minister, let me notify the Council that hon Sibande will be speaker number two on the speaker's list.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 176



(Consideration of Bill and Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Deputy Chairperson, esteemed hon members of the Council, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, the South African economy requires infrastructure to develop and grow, create jobs and fight the scourge of unemployment and inequality. In terms of the overall infrastructure programme, it is important to note that government took a decision to proceed with the infrastructure programme, despite the global economic crisis. Without the required infrastructure funding for roads, human settlements, electricity, water, etc, it will not be possible to pay for and maintain optimally our infrastructure at the requisite level.

The current financial reality in South Africa is that there is a growing budget deficit that, if allowed to increase, will be detrimental to the economy and growth prospects of South Africa. This reality makes it necessary to find additional sources of funding to assist the fiscus to meet the various demands made on it, so that social expenditure can be maintained and infrastructure projects implemented.

In order to meet these challenges, these infrastructure projects have to be funded through the selective use of a user charge. It is the responsibility of government to implement prudent policies that will result in long-term benefits to South Africa. This outlook, as reflected in the White Paper for Transport and in the National Development Plan, makes provision for alternative funding sources from the capital markets and for the "user pays" principle to implement road development projects. In the context of the overall road network in South Africa, which exceeds 700 000 km, a very small proportion is tolled. Only 3 200 km - approximately 17% of the total national road network of 19 000 km - is tolled. The National Treasury therefore still makes available funding for the bulk of roads in South Africa and tolling is used selectively to provide high-standard infrastructure.

Funding the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project through a user charge has enabled the upgrading of some 201 km of roads that would otherwise have taken in excess of 12 years to fund with the concomitant loss of opportunity. Furthermore, it also ensures that funds for future maintenance and operations are available. Without this project, traffic in the province would have been in a gridlock by now. Members may be interested to note that the traffic volumes on Gauteng freeways increased by between 27% and 42% for different freeway sections since 2006.

On the N1 between the Allandale Interchange and Buccleuch Interchange, morning peak-hour traffic increased from 9 000 vehicles in 2008 to 13 000 vehicles in 2013. An independent survey carried out by a company providing navigation services showed that the improvements have led to a 50% reduction in travel times on the N1 between Johannesburg and Tshwane during peak hours. This translates into huge savings to the economy. Prior to this, a study conducted by the SA Chamber of Commerce and Industry showed that the loss to the economy due to congestion was in the order of R10 million per hour.

The electronic toll collection system, popularly known as e-tolling, is a mechanism for the collection of tolls without disturbing the flow of traffic, at the least cost. This system is already in use in the east of Pretoria, on the Platinum toll highway, and is programmed to also be implemented at other existing toll plazas. Notwithstanding the consultations since 2006 with various stake holders, including the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, government again engaged with stakeholders at various times through various structures over the past two years with regard to the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project. These engagements were aimed at finding ways to mitigate issues that were raised by stakeholders and the public.

These engagements took place via a steering committee that was appointed by my predecessor, and the Inter-Ministerial Committee appointed by Cabinet and chaired by Deputy President Motlanthe. Engagements took place with organised labour, religious leaders, stakeholders representing road users, the Automobile Association, the Road Freight Association, Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance, Outa, and directly with the public.

In order to assist the public and business, various measures were announced by government, which include but are not restricted to the following: firstly, the exemption of qualifying public transport vehicles that are providing commuter public transport services; secondly, a financial contribution of R5,7 billion by National Treasury that enabled the reduction of toll tariffs; thirdly, increased e-tag user discounts; fourthly, the introduction of monthly toll caps for qualifying vehicles - vehicles registered and fitted with e-tags - and fifthly, increased time-of-day discounts, especially for heavy vehicles. These discounts will also serve as a travel demand management measure that will encourage heavy vehicles to travel outside peak hours.

The Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill of 2012 will enhance the legislative framework for the implementation of projects with electronic tolling and will assist to improve the effectiveness of toll operations and enforcement. The Bill has been necessitated by the development of the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, as well as future plans for the development of road infrastructure in the Republic.

The SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, was established in terms of the SA National Roads Agency Limited and National Roads Act of 1988. The Sanral Act was brought into operation on 1 April 1998. It established Sanral to manage and control the Republic's national roads system and to take charge of the development, funding, maintenance and rehabilitation of national roads within the framework of government policy.

The existing Act further provides for the establishment and operation of toll roads, including provisions for electronic toll plazas. Apart from the physical infrastructure, the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, Gfip, will result in the operation of a road network that involves the utilisation of intelligent transport systems. An important component of the network is the Electronic Toll Collection System.

The Bill is essential to enhance the appropriate implementation of the Electronic Toll Collection System. The Bill further seeks to, firstly, provide more effectively for the collection of tolls; secondly, amend the Cross-Border Road Transport Act of 1998 in order to empower the Cross-Border Road Transport Agency to assist Sanral in the collection of tolls at the border posts; thirdly, amend the Sanral Act to insert a definition of the word "owner"; fourthly, further provide for differentiation in respect of the amount of toll that may be levied; fifthly, provide that the regulations made by the Minister of Transport must be published by notice in the Government Gazette, calling for comments from members of the public; sixthly, empower the Minister of Transport to make regulations relating to specified toll-related matters; seventhly, provide for certain presumptions relating to the driving, operation and use of vehicles on toll roads and the use of electronic evidence to prove an alleged contravention of the Sanral Act; eighthly, exclude the levying and collection of toll from the ambit of the National Credit Act of 2005; and ninthly, amend the contents of the Sanral Act.

The noncollection of tolls may impact negatively on the ability of Sanral to raise capital for infrastructure development projects. The Bill must be seen in the context of government's plans to fund its envisaged infrastructure programme. Sanral has issued bonds to fund the project of R20 billion plus capitalised interest amounting to approximately R3,4 billion, which needs to be paid from the toll revenue. Failure to collect tolls and repay the bonds would have very serious financial implications for Sanral and the national government, which approved guarantees in respect of most of the Sanral roads.

The inability to collect revenue would damage the credit reputation of Sanral among investors, who may price their bonds at higher levels to cover this risk. This in turn, would likely have a negative impact on both Sanral and the government's credit ratings. A draft Amendment Bill was published in Government Gazette No 31715 on 19 December 2008 and again on 15 March 2010 for public comment. This particular Bill was published for public comment by the Portfolio Committee on Transport on 15 August 2012.

A notice of intention to introduce the Bill in Parliament was also published in Government Gazette No 35550 of 2012 under Notice No.661 of 2012. The Bill was presented to the Portfolio Committee on Transport. The Portfolio Committee also called for public hearings on the Bill and various organisations like the Congress of SA Trade Unions, Cosatu, Salga and the SA Chamber of Commerce made representations to the portfolio committee, and the committee incorporated some of their comments. The portfolio committee considered the Bill and it was adopted by the National Assembly. The State Law Advisor certified the Bill as a section 75 Bill.

Hon Deputy Chairperson and members of the House, I kindly request your consideration of the Bill as submitted and the approval thereof. [Applause.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 177


Mr M P SIBANDE: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, as we enter into this debate today we are well aware that the eyes of the country are on this House and the deliberations of today. We are fully aware and informed by both the deliberations we have held in the NCOP and enriched by processes that have preceded the passage of this Bill in Parliament.

In summary, the Bill has three main facets: It seeks to amend section 4 of Act 4 of 1998, the Cross Border Road Transport Agency, by extending the mandate of the Cross Border Road Transport Agency to collect toll fees on behalf of the SA National Roads Agency Ltd, Sanral, in terms of the agreement reached between Sanral and the Cross Border Road Transport Agency.

The Bill also seeks to amend the SA Roads Agency Ltd and National Roads Act of 1998 to allow Sanral to have the means by which the passage of a vehicle beneath or through a toll plaza is identified and the liability to be paid is recorded and the means of payment, including prepayment of toll liability.

The Bill makes it a requirement for the Minister to declare – I will repeat this - an urban road a toll road. The Minister can do that only after Sanral, together with the affected municipality and provinces, have conducted an assessment of the socioeconomic impact of declaring a toll road.


Ngithanda ukukhumbuza iNdlu ukuthi ingakhohlwa ukuthi kunomqulu obizwa ngeMasakhane. Kulo mqulu zonke izifundazwe kanye nabo bonke oNdunankulu bavumelena baphinde basayinda isivumelwano sokuthi kumele kube nendlela yokuqoqa intelo. Kulezi zinsuku sekuyamangaza ngoba kukhona izinto ezenzakalayo, ngeke ngijule kulezo zinto kepha ngisazobuyela kuzo.

Yingakho thina njengoKhongolose ...


... we are supporting this Bill and we call upon the House to do likewise. For the record, as the chairperson of the select committee, let me state that in considering the Bill the committee dealt with it over three meetings.

In the first meeting, the Department of Transport took the committee through the Bill, clause by clause. The Office of the Chief State Law Advisor and Parliamentary Legal Advisor dealt with the matter of public submissions for a section 75 Bill in the NCOP select committees and meticulously explained the tagging mechanism process through which the Bills are tagged.

Further, hon members will recall that we followed the advice of the Office of the Chief State Law Advisor and placed an advert on Parliament's Website in order to get public opinion. Only one submission was received. Some people are mistaken about the issue of public participation. When you set information on a public website, that is part of the public participation. I know that the DA is going to speak about that issue - they don't understand that thing. [Interjections.]


Asseblief, jy moenie soos 'n duif koer nie. Ek is besig hier. [Please, don't coo like a dove. I am busy here.]


In considering the Bill, each party was allowed to make a submission. The fact that the DA chose to make a prior submission to the briefing by the Department of Transport is entirely their own decision and right. Other parties made submissions and those were duly noted.

The minutes of the select committee reflect that the committee was given an opportunity to accept or reject the Bill by the chairperson of the committee. They also reflect that the question was put to the committee and that hon Tau moved for adoption, which the hon Mabija seconded. The minutes reflect that when the question was put to the committee - whether it was in favour of the Bill or not - not a single one of the members of the committee objected to the process.

Therefore, on the third occasion we followed democracy because the DA put a query to the Chairperson of the House that the flaws had not been dealt with. Yesterday we requested that we resend the report of the 7th so that we can start the process again. We have done that.


Kodwa-ke ake ngibatshele ngolimi lwakubo.


Agb lede, daar is 'n liedjie wat lui: "Hasie, hoekom is jou stert so kort?" [Gelag.] Ek vra dat die agb lid Groenewald en sy party, die DA, herinner word aan die geskiedenis van Suid-Afrika. In verband met rekeningkunde en wiskunde, die vakke is aangebied aan baie mense in die skole. Die enigste vak wat hulle moes bemeester en slaag met onderskeiding was "As jy nie wil regkom nie, vat maar 'n hamer". Dis geleer in die konsentrasiekampe. [Tussenwerpsels.]


Chairperson, may you please allow me to use this opportunity to teach them maths, as follows: Capital infrastructure – the Minister spoke about it. The hon Groenewald and I were together in Cuba and Japan, where we went to find out what could be done in our country to upgrade it, but today he is changing his stance.

Let me teach them maths: Capital infrastructure plus kort step [poor implementation] equals zero. High trade plus kort gedagte [bad ideas] equals misleading. This is a recipe for antagonism and will result in disaster.

We have a duty and responsibility in this House to explain key aspects of the Bill and to explain its broader relationship with infrastructure development. Improvement of the Gauteng freeways is a matter that has historically impacted negatively on the economy - not only of Gauteng but of the broader economy of the country.

The Bill addresses specific issues and has its origins in the Integrated Transport Transformation Model piloted by the Gauteng province. The Gauteng Freeways Improvement Project addresses the problem of congestion on its roads and reduces travelling time and accidents.


Ngingakadluli lapho kumele ngibakhumbuze. Okuyindida ukuthi umhlonishwa u-Groenewald ngaso sonke isikhathi siba naye emihlanganweni. Kodwa selokhu saqala ngalo Mthethosivivinywa, yena useyaphelezelwa. Sekuke kwafika umhlonishwa u-Van Lingen, saphinde sabona nomhlonishwa u-Ollis oyilungu le Ndlu yesiShayamthetho. Lokhu kuyindida kithi. Kanti akazi yini ukuthi kusetshenzwa kanjani?

Lokho kutshengisa ukuthi abamethembi, akawenzi kahle umsebenzi. [Ubuwelewele.]


The Bill is ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Order! Just a second, hon Sibande. Hon Faber, please, we are in the middle of a presentation. Do me a favour and take your seat and behave. Hon van Lingen, do you have a point of order? [Interjections.]

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, I wonder if I can ask the hon ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): No! He said no.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, can I ask him a question, please, because he doesn't seem to know the Rules of the NCOP.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Well, you have already answered yourself. Do me a favour and sit down.


Umnu M P SIBANDE: Ngiyabonga kakhulu, Sihlalo ngobe lidada nawungalifaka emantini, uyati kutsiwani ngeSiswati, lidada nawungalifaka edamini nome ulitsele ngemanti livele litivitsite nje kuphelele lapho kube sekwendlulile njalo. Abeva ngobe abayilandzeli imitsetfo netinchubo.


The Bill is an enabling Bill to assist both the operational functioning and financial sustainability of the infrastructure and the responsibility of the repayment of debts. The "user pays" principle has been adopted in the country as a mechanism to recover costs and ensure the financing of future infrastructure.

It is necessary to express the fact that the "user pays" system on toll roads forms the basis of the SA National Roads Agency Limited and National Roads Act 7 of 1998. This is the Act that gave birth to Sanral and it mandates Sanral to borrow money to build roads and attract private sector investment to road infrastructure development.

That decision was informed by an in-depth understanding of the fact that governments alone do not have the capacity to fund infrastructure development projects. That has been an international trend over many decades and the South African government has adopted a particular approach in addressing the challenges of road infrastructure. It maintains roads and ensures that the challenges of development are met through state-of-the-art road infrastructure as a direct contribution to the economy.

The mandate of Sanral in relation to toll roads must be addressed in its own right and cannot be conflated with the matter of the "user pays" system. We are sure that the content of this Bill does address concerns about the socioeconomic impact of future toll roads. We are sensitive to mitigating against any negative impact on traffic and socioeconomic conditions as a result of urban tolls.

Further, the content of this Bill does allow the Minister of Transport and Sanral to consult all the interested parties to present the results of any impact assessment study on traffic and socioeconomic conditions. We are aware that certain stakeholders and political parties desire nothing more and that if they are democratically defeated through debate or vote, then they would threaten the democratic process of the legislature with the powers of the judiciary. This tendency really undermines the legislative arm of the state and we merely undermine ourselves when we take this route.

This tendency takes on many forms, one of which is to portray a situation where you make up the issue that procedure has not been followed in processing the legislation. Then you try to use that as an instrument to oppose the Bill, instead of debating its contents.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, please conclude.


Mnu M P SIBANDE: Yebo. Ngithanda ukubonga amalunga ekomidi ...


... for their robust involvement.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, please hold on for a moment. [Interjections.]

Mr M P SIBANDE: Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): No, please remain standing. Yes, hon Faber?

Mr W F FABER: Chair, will the hon member take a question?


Mnu M P SIBANDE: Ngizohlangana naye ngaphandle.


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Did you hear what he said, hon Faber? Should he repeat it?

Mr W F FABER: Could he repeat it? Thank you, Chair.


Mr M P SIBANDE: Laat my nie hier verduidelik nie. Ons kan mekaar buite ontmoet en dit bespreek, asseblief. [Let me not explain here. Please, can we meet each other outside and discuss this?]


Siyabonga kuwo wonke amalunga. Sibonga kakhulu nakuNgqongqoshe. [Ihlombe.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 178


The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Carlisle, I hope I pronounced your name correctly.

Mr R CARLISLE (Western Cape): Hon Deputy Chairperson, you did indeed. There is pressure in following on hon Sibande. I hope he is not going to invite me outside as well. [Laughter.] It is also a particular pressure to follow on my hon national Minister of Transport.

What is interesting is that there is all this discussion about how we all support the Bill. In fact, nobody in this room supports the Bill and we know that. [Interjections.] We know that. Nobody here supports the Bill, but there are people here who ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, you must actually watch the time.

Mr R CARLISLE: I watch the time very carefully.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Okay, thanks.

Mr R CARLISLE: None of us here support the Bill, but some of us will have to vote for the Bill. That is the fact of the matter, and we all know it. We know that if you actually go the length and breadth of South Africa you will not find anyone - besides my good friend, Mr Nazir Ali - who supports electronic tolling. So, that is the first fact that we have to deal with.

The second fact that we have to deal with is that if you vote for this measure, as some of you may, you are then voting for the notion that Sanral decides on policy for South Africa and not the ANC-led national government. It should actually be the other way round. You are voting for the notion that eight provinces that do not use these roads have to pay R5,7 billion per annum for those Gauteng roads. Those of us who live in those other provinces must pay for the Gauteng roads. [Interjections.]

When you vote for this, you have to consider whether it is sound social policy to spend over R55 billion on the rich of Gauteng at the cost of Orange Farm, at the cost of Kliptown and at the cost of Diepsloot. That is the question you have to ask. You have to ask what sort of government spends money on those who have and neglects those who not have. [Interjections.] What sort of government provides additional choices to those who already have choices and denies it to those who have none. [Applause.]

An HON MEMBER: Those are the facts!


Mr R CARLISLE: We have built a set of roads that we cannot afford. Government, Sanral and the people who use them can't pay for them. What kind of government gets itself into that sort of mess? What sort of government ends up with the most expensive electronic collection method in the world in a country where close to 30% of the people do not even have a job? [Interjections.] Are we Switzerland, Sweden, California, or do we recognise that we have to provide for those who have nothing and stop this kind of thing? [Interjections.]

Let me just say to my hon Minister over there that I am sorry he is in the firing line here because he is actually innocent in this debate. He was not responsible for it, nor was his predecessor. I might add that the one who is responsible for this is very quiet on the subject. Here we have the interesting situation of a road we can't afford, of a Bill we are going to vote for when every one of us here is secretly against it, of spending money to the detriment of the poorest of the poor, and of carrying out infrastructural projects that are totally inappropriate. [Interjections.] If I may just finish: All of those things ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): No, no, no, hon member, just stay there. There is a point of order.

Mr R CARLISLE: I beg your pardon, I wasn't aware of it.

Ms M G BOROTO: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Hon Carlisle is misleading the nation by saying that our Minister is in the line of fire. What is the insinuation?

Mr R CARLISLE: That is not a point of order. If you want to discuss it with me outside, I will do so. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, you have no power to say that another hon member is out of line.

Mr R CARLISLE: I am sorry. I beg your pardon. May I continue? Let me say this ... [Interjections.]

Mr B NESI: Deputy Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Is the member talking about De Doorns when he referred to the government that can't provide for the poor?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Nesi, is that a point of order? [Interjections.] Hon Van Lingen, for the last time, I am saying to you that you should be a good listener. You don't decide what is a point of order and what is not, unless you are saying you and I must exchange seats. Right now I am presiding and you'll have to abide by the regulations. Thank you.

An HON MEMBER: Amandla!

Mr R CARLISLE: May I end on a note of thanks? I want to say that the DA and the other smaller parties would like to thank the ANC from the bottom of our hearts for providing us here in the Western Cape, Gauteng and indeed in the whole country with one of the best election issues for 2014 that we could ever have. [Applause.] We look to see what the people of South Africa will say about the tolling of roads. [Applause.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 179


Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Transport, hon members of the NCOP, the e-toll Bill has an effect on all South African citizens now and in the future. If this Bill is now approved, without public participation, the public and the provinces will forever lose their right to oppose the e-tolling principle and the expensive methodology of raising tax.

Thereafter the public and provinces can only object to the Environmental Impact Assessment, EIA, of a specific e-toll road. They will argue only to mitigate the fatal flaws of the EIA outcomes, when they have already lost the principal e-tolling argument. In all EIAs, the payer is favoured and wins.

The ANC is trying to bully this Bill into law and to hide the process from the public as they do it, until it is too late. This is evident in the scheduling of this important consideration by the National Council of Provinces at the same time as the debate in the National Assembly on the Guptagate scandal. It is also evident in the manner in which the Minister of Transport, Ben Martins, Deputy Minister of Transport, Sindi Chikunga, and Sanral demeaned the authority of the NCOP and us as members by inferring that they would bully this Bill through in the NCOP within two months.

If we listen to the Minister and Sanral, the NCOP has no role to play in the legislative process of any Bill in future. More importantly, the general public and the voters are denied their democratic and constitutional right to public participation. The NCOP has full legislative authority to take its time to consider necessary and recommended public hearings on section 75 Bills.

The Protection of State Information Bill, which was also a section 75 Bill, went through a public participation process of at least three months, with a minimum of two public hearings in each of the nine provinces. The NCOP has failed the people of this country. The socioeconomic impact of e-tolling will be severe.

The financial model, as proposed in the Gauteng province by Sanral, is the most expensive model to fund road infrastructure. The toll roads will hit the poorest South Africans the hardest. It will increase the price of doing business, result in food price increases and undermine economic growth and job creation. Furthermore, 40% of the profit will not be reinvested back into South Africa.

The Cross Border Road Transport Agency, as proposed in the Bill, gives further reason why this Bill cannot go ahead. The implementation constraints on this cross-border agency are not realistic. The agency cannot even manage the taxi industry beyond the cross-border boundaries. The agency cannot administer their finances as per the Auditor-General reports. How can they possibly handle the collection of obscene e-tolling amounts?

The chairperson of the select committee inferred that there was public participation, but it is important to understand that the initial public consultation was done on the draft amendment Bill that was published in December 2008 and two draft Bills in 2010. These Bills have undergone significant changes since their initial conception. It was not possible to foresee the vast impact it would have on communities during the only period of considering these two Bills on the table.

Public participation thereafter only occurred in Gauteng, with the National Assembly processes on the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, GFIP, but not on this Bill. Both the Protection of State Information Bill and the E-toll Bill are section 75 Bills and therefore similar public hearings can and should be extended.

Yesterday, on 21 May, the Western Cape High Court ruled in favour of the City of Cape Town for an interdict against Sanral's proposed tolling on the N1 and the N2. The proposed e-toll project would cost taxpayers R10 billion and to build a second Du Toitskloof Tunnel would cost only R2 billion. This shows that while the ANC continues to push for e-tolling, it is the DA that remains committed to fight it wherever it occurs.

The government cannot just ignore millions of South Africans, taxpayers, road users, vehicle owners, political parties, unions of the South African labour market and ANC members who are against tolling. They deserve public participation in all the provinces. Even the churches, it appears, have spoken out against e-tolling.

The DA cannot support a Bill that will make poor South Africans poorer. We cannot support a Bill that the people of South Africa have rejected. We cannot support a Bill that will slow down economic growth and undermine job creation. Collectively, we say no to e-tolls! It is high time the ANC started listening to the people and did the same.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 180


Cllr M NKOSI: Hon Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon MECs, hon members of the NCOP and special delegates, the SA Local Government Association, Salga, welcomes the opportunity granted to participate in the debate on the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill of 2012.

The view of local government is that charging the users of infrastructure for the use of such infrastructure is an acceptable way of revenue collection. That is what we do on a daily basis. Salga would like to put it on record that it supports the current version of the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill of 2012, as it addresses the views of organised local government on the concept of open-road tolling in and around metropolitan spaces.

Salga supports the Bill on the following basis. Firstly, organised local government has been advocating for the consideration of socioeconomic and traffic impact assessment studies pertaining to the proposed toll roads in and around metropolitan spaces. Salga is pleased to learn that a clause in this regard has been added to the current version of the Bill.

Secondly, Salga is pleased to learn that within the process of getting an approval from the Minister of Transport, the SA National Roads Agency Ltd, Sanral, has an obligation to indicate, firstly, the outcome of these assessments indicated above; secondly, the extent to which any of the matters raised by the stakeholders ...

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Order, hon councillor.

Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Chair, through you, I would like to find out if the councillor will take a question.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Councillor, are you able to take a question? [Interjections.]

Cllr M NKOSI: No, Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Proceed, councillor. [Interjections.] Order! Order!

Cllr M NKOSI: ... the extent to which any of the matters raised by stakeholders, including organised local government, have been accommodated; and thirdly, the steps proposed to mitigate against the impact or likely impact on alternative roads with regard to maintenance and traffic management that may result from declaring a road a toll road.

However, there is another area in the SA National Roads Agency Limited and National Roads Act of 1998 that needs to be considered within the ambit of this amending Bill. The current SA National Roads Agency Limited and National Roads Act of 1998 does not make provision for the representation of organised local government on its board of directors. Section 12(3)(b) of the principal Act excludes a person with expertise on local roads and limits the appointment criteria to people who have expertise and experience in matters concerning national roads. This is a serious oversight and needs to be corrected.

It became very evident in the period before the 2011 elections that communities did not know or care which sphere of government is responsible for which road. From their point of view, all roads are physically in a municipal space and therefore the municipality must account. This matter cannot only be left to intergovernmental co-ordination. All avenues must be considered. It is for this reason that the SA Local Government Association, Salga, proposes that the SA National Roads Agency Limited and National Roads Act of 1998 should make provision for a board member from organised local government who has expertise and experience in matters concerning local roads.

In conclusion, Salga believes that the current Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill of 2012 addresses most of the aspects associated with open-road tolling. However, within the bigger scheme of things, Salga considers that organised local government should be represented on the Sanral board, in order to bring a local government perspective, because this is currently missing. [Applause.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 180



Mr D V BLOEM: Agb Voorsitter en Minister, ek gaan nie van "hasie, hoekom is jou stert so kort?" praat nie. [Gelag.] Die voorsitter het van "hasie, hoekom is jou stert so kort?" gepraat. Ek moet vir hom sê dat daardie stert baie lank is. Hy is nie kort nie. Daardie hasie se stert is baie lank.


First of all, let me congratulate the Minister on his position. I know the Minister very well and I can say without doubt that this Minister is a very capable human being. He can do the job. I know him. However, Minister, it is unfortunate that you are coming into this position at this very bad time. You know and you understand what I mean. [Laughter.]

I am sure hon members will agree with me. This is one of those controversial Bills – like the Protection of State Information Bill and the Traditional Courts Bill – that has attracted a lot of public interest and comment. It is clear that this Bill does not have the support of the majority of South Africans, whether we admit it or not. From the ordinary person in the street to the executive in the boardroom, they reject this Bill.

The majority of political parties, civil society organisations, religious bodies and the business sector are campaigning against this Bill. At the forefront, leading this campaign, is the giant labour federation Cosatu. [Interjections.] This Bill has split the ruling party in two. [Interjections.] I know people will deny it here ... [Interjections.] ... but it is a fact! [Interjections.] This morning, Cosatu called for a total shutdown of all highways in the coming weeks. We, too, support the masses out there who oppose this senseless Bill.

The select committee proposed an amendment that says: "Before the Transport Minister makes any regulation, he must submit a draft of the proposed regulation to Parliament for consideration and not just for comment." The committee felt that this provision was too weak and not in line with section 102 of the Constitution, which clearly empowers Parliament to consider regulations and not just to comment.

Even with this amendment, Cope will not support this Bill, for the simple reason that these roads are public and not private roads. Why must we pay for these roads? It is the responsibility of any government to give the people of that country good, well-maintained roads and services. It is very sad that the ruling party that was at the forefront in the struggle for a better life wants to turn the already struggling masses into milch cows.


Mr D V BLOEM: Let us ask ourselves this: Who is going to benefit here? I am leaving that question to you, public representatives of the people, to answer.

An HON MEMBER: Will you take a question?

Mr D V BLOEM: With pleasure. I will take your question, sir. [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): He has not raised ... Hon Bloem, carry on with the debate.

Mr D V BLOEM: No, he is scared of asking a question.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): No, no, no, hon Bloem ... [Laughter.]

Mr D V BLOEM: He is scared!

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Order! Order! Carry on with the debate.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, thank you very much. Cope will not support this Bill.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 181


Mr M P JACOBS: Hon Chair of the session, Minister of Transport, hon members, I have made a truce with hon Groenewald and I am not going to attack him. I am just going to speak the truth; the only truth. [Interjections.] This Bill has cost a lot of noise ... [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Order! Hon Bloem, take your seat, please. Thank you. Members, it is unparliamentarily to read a newspaper in the House while the Council is sitting. So, please close your newspaper. Put it in your bag or under your seat but do not read it in the House. Thank you.

Mr M P JACOBS: I think we need to put this into the proper context. We are not dealing with a tollgate here. We are dealing with the legislation that seeks to amend the SA National Roads Agency Limited Act of 1998 and the Cross-Border Road Transport Agency of 1998. We are not talking about the tollgate. That legislation of tollgates is still coming.

The noise that comes from the DA and the media is unjustifiable because the issue of tollgates started in 1983. The ANC was not there. Hon Carisle and hon Groenewald voted for that Act in 1983. [Applause.] [Interjections.] So, it means that at that time it was good for them because it was to their advantage. [Interjections.] There was no noise at that time - hehey tollgate, hehey tollgate! [Applause.] [Laughter.]

We must understand that South Africa is a developing country and we need to have a safe and reliable integrated road system. It is against this background that we are improving on tollgates. The only difference between e-toll and the tollgates is that with tollgates you have to stop and pay; whereas with e-tolls you don't stop but will pay later. That is the only difference that is there. [Interjections.]

We live in a world of technology. We need to improve. We are not static but a developing country. So, this means we need to adapt with the times. [Applause.] This e-toll has to deal with minimising time, congestion and the easy flow of traffic. There has been a lot of consultation, as the Minister and the chairperson have said.

Let me make this difference clear: This Bill is a Section 75 Bill. It does not need us to go to provinces. When we deal with tollgates, we will go to provinces and do consultations. [Interjections.] Remember there was noise about the State Information Bill but the committee decided that they would go to the public for consultation. However, as a committee, we have not decided on that. We said that the consultation that was done was enough. The reason why the DA and the media are making such a noise is because this is a DA constituency. [Interjections.] Which is a DA constituency? The DA's constituency is monopoly capital. It is the elite, the affluent and the middle class! [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Jacobs, order! Hon Carisle, stop your running commentary, please! You can interject, but you can't do a running commentary while the speaker is on the platform, please! Hon Faber, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr W F FABER: On a point of order, yes, hon Chair: I would like to know if this hon member will take a question. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Order! Hon Bloem, order! Hon Jacobs, are you ... [Interjections.]

Mr M P JACOBS: He is wasting my time. I want to explain this.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Are you taking a question? Yes or no?

Mr M P JACOBS: He is wasting my time. No, I am not taking any question. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Order! The member is not prepared to take any question. Please proceed.

Mr M P JACOBS: I said the DA's constituency is capitalist; big business. It is the elite, the affluent and the middle class. There is no working class; there are no poor people. That is why they are making this noise - it affects business. It affects the elite because, through business, as they do it, they are the ones who are using the roads. [Interjections.] They are elite; they are the ones who have their own cars and are using the roads. That is the reason they are making so much noise - it affects their constituency. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Order! Members, I have just spoken to you. In terms of Rule 33:

No member may interrupt another member who is addressing the Chair, except to call attention to a point of order or a question of privilege.

We are not saying you can't interject but you are doing a running commentary and you don't listen to the speaker. So, stop the running commentaries. If you want running commentaries, go and join the SABC to do your running commentaries. Stop it now here in this House. This is the last time that I am asking you to stop it.

Hon Faber, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, yes, you said I had to ask. I would like to know if the hon member will now take a different question. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Jacobs, are you prepared to take a question from ... [Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): The member says no, hon Faber. You may sit down.

Mr M P JACOBS: I am saying the DA has never been aggressive in campaigning for issues that affect the poor and the working class. They have never done that. They are so aggressive when it comes to the State Information Bill because it affects their constituency. They are so aggressive regarding this Bill because it affects their constituency! Where is the poor and the working class?

He spoke about Diepsloot and Orange Farm. It is the poor and the working class who live there. I want to say to them: The noise they are making should not be done on behalf of the workers and the working class. That is our constituency! They need to do whatever they are doing, maintaining their privileges because ... [Interjections.]

I am not going to reply to you. It is big business that is benefiting.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon member, if you want to raise a question in terms of the Rules, you must stand so that I can then recognise you.

Ms L MABIJA: Chair, I am worried. I am raising a point of order: The hon member of the DA, Mr Carlisle, is continuing his running commentary. He is not respecting what you warned us against. Please behave like an hon member. Thank you.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Please, hon Carlisle ... [Interjections.]

Mr R CARLISLE (Western Cape): I am just trying to assist this hon member.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): No, no, hon Carlisle, you may interject. There is a time for interjections and so forth but I say this once again: You must stop the running commentary, otherwise we will have to act. Thank you, Minister Carlisle.

Mr M P JACOBS: The problem with DA and big business is that they don't want to share their wealth with the poor. They don't want to narrow that gap. Remember, we achieved this democracy through negotiation and consultation and we involved them, the very people who persecuted us. We involved them and today we are even sitting with them here to show them that as the ANC-led government, we have the interest of all the people of this country at heart. [Interjections.] We don't have the interests of the rich people. If they have wealth, why don't they share it with us and narrow the gap between those who have and those who do not have?

Mr R CARLISLE: Give us some toll roads! [Interjections.]

Mr M P JACOBS: I think it will be important, as you go back to campaign, that we are giving you ammunition as a tool. You will only do that in your constituency. However, you won't do that in our constituency because in your policies you don't have the interests of the poor and the working class at heart. [Applause.] You only have an interest in the people who have money. All we are saying is: Let us share that money with you! [Interjections.] You have that money! It is you who have the money. [Interjections.]

Mr R CARLISLE: You have the money now!

Mr M P JACOBS: On the issue of public participation, it was said by hon Groenewald that we bullied you into making this a law. We talked about this many times in our committee and we explained to you that this is not a Section 76 Bill; it is a Section 75 Bill. It has nothing to do with tollgates - we are still coming to the tollgates, as I said. That will be addressed when we come to the Tollgate Act.

We are not going to fail our people. The beauty of this Bill and e-toll is that the money that is going to be derived from it is going to maintain the very same road that you are using. However, at the same time, it is going to help those who do not have money because it is going to build a road in rural areas or in areas where roads did not exist. So, why worry? Why do you have this ...

An HON MEMBER: That is just not true!

Mr M P JACOBS: It's true! [Interjections.] It is because you only want to benefit as you benefited during the era of apartheid. So, now we must enjoy. [Interjections.] No, it is not the past. You build the future from past. We will always remind you! [Applause.] As the ANC, we support this Bill, whether they like it or not. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Bloem, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr D V BLOEM: Chair, I didn't want to disturb the speaker.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): The speaker is done.

Mr D V BLOEM: This hon member is calling other people "bleskoppe". [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Bloem, take your seat, please.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 182


The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Hon Chairperson, I would like to thank members of this House from all political parties for a very vibrant debate. The nature of democracy is such that we are all entitled to our respective views on any issue. That is what makes South Africa a democratic country. Having said that, facts are facts and they are stubborn things. The hon MEC Carlisle correctly reminds us that next year is an election year, so that any and every issue should be used towards that end.

I would like to remind this House that in a democracy, any opposition party has the luxury of voicing vibrant criticism. The ruling party has to listen to positive and constructive elements of that criticism. However, the responsibility of the ruling party goes beyond the remit of criticism. It has the responsibility of ensuring that the country has adequate infrastructure that won't simply be needed for the next five years but for the next 50 and 100 years. That is the responsibility of government. You have to be forward-looking and put systems in place in the present, to ensure that this country has adequate infrastructure that will meet the country's needs, irrespective of who does or does not govern in 50 years. When you are in power, you have that responsibility.

Members of the House have spoken about e-tolls. History teaches very interesting lessons to those who read it. From the time of Adriaan van der Stel in the 1700s and earlier, they utilised a toll to ensure that roads were in good order for the good of the public.

Another issue that has been raised is that there are a number of areas where the indigent and the poor do not have proper amenities. It would be rich for anybody to preach to members of the governing party, which is the ANC, about the abject horror of poverty, where people stay in one or two rooms with no sanitation, no roads and negligent health facilities.

Alexandra township, Soweto, Orlando, Noordgesig or any of those townships are not what they were pre-1994. Today there are roads and stadia in those townships. Where there were no tarred roads or infrastructure, today there are bulk-water services and infrastructure. People are buying houses in Soweto today because there is the requisite infrastructure. Somebody had to ensure that the infrastructure was there, build those roads and ensure that the infrastructure was up to standard to give dignity to the inhabitants of Soweto, Alexandra and other areas. That is the responsibility that government has.

Hon members, we also need to take cognisance of the facts when we address the following issue. The stretch of road that has been tolled by the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project, GFIP, is a particular stretch of road. The law that we want to pass also makes it clear that those vehicles that convey commuters and members of the public; the poorest of the poor; the working class of this country; those who cannot afford private sedans to convey themselves to work; and those people who utilise minibus kombis and buses are all exempted. So, in addressing this matter, I appeal to all that while it is electioneering season and election year, be truthful about the facts concerning this particular project. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Mr D V BLOEM: [Inaudible.] [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Just raise your hand and do not make a noise. The Deputy Chair on this side ... Hon Bloem, you are not logged on and you cannot vote if you are not logged on. Log on!

Mr D V BLOEM: Chair, this thing is not working. I reported it.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Bloem, you can log on to another one next to you as well.

Mr D V BLOEM: Sir, I sit here. This thing is not working. This is mine and it is not working. [Interjections.] Sorry?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Rantho, you have not logged on either. Are you logged on?

Ms D Z RANTHO: [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

Mr D V BLOEM: [Inaudible.]

An HON MEMBER: He is logged on now.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): You have not logged on.

Mr D V BLOEM: No, Chair!

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Bloem, don't argue! You have not logged on! We have the technology that shows you have not logged on. If you do not understand the technology, you can go to Mr Tshabalala after the sitting and he will show you how the technology works. Take your seat! Hon Van Lingen?

Mr D V BLOEM: [Inaudible.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Van Lingen?

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, since the hon Bloem cannot manage the system and the hon Rantho is not logged on properly, let us call for a division. Then we can all go the one way and vote against it. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): No, no! Order, order! I already asked if there were any declarations and no party indicated that they wanted to call for a division. So, please take your seat. Thank you. [Interjections.] Hon Bloem?

Mr D V BLOEM: Can I log on for the hon Rantho?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): No, log yourself on! Please sit down! [Interjections.] Hon Carlisle, have you voted?

Mr R CARLISLE: I was not aware that I could vote, sir.

An HON MEMBER: You have to vote. [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon members, voting is now closed. The results are as follows: Those who voted in favour, 21; and those who voted against, 14. Before we continue, Minister Martins, on behalf of the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, the hon Memela, the Acting Cheif Whip, the hon Boroto and the members, we want to thank you for the time you spent in the House and the vibrant debate. Thank you very much and we wish you well in future endeavours.

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 183



The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Chair, hon members, this year, 2013, is virtually the final year for the fourth Parliament. Therefore, this is the year in which we must consolidate our work for this term and start reporting back on the performance of the NCOP in the fourth Parliament. This also means we must reflect on our work so far and then assess our performance.

The first point I want to raise is with regard to the length of time or the interval between the Taking Parliament to the People visit and the debate on the report thereof. As the NCOP, we must applaud ourselves for narrowing this interval to two months. This points to efficiency and when we debate a report, the issues will still be vivid in our minds.

I also want to underscore the fact that as we reflect we must not lose sight of the fact that the meeting 11 to 15 March 2013 was not the beginning. It was rather the culmination of a series of meetings that had started as early as late last year, in preparation for this main event. This is in line with the approach that we adopted of having pre-visit, actual visit and post-visit phases of Taking Parliament to the People programme. This is proving to be a useful strategy in making sustained interventions on behalf of our people.

In January this year, we conducted a public meeting at Silobela to allow the community to set the agenda for the upcoming programme in March. Thereafter, the chairperson had various meetings with Ministers whose departments were cited in issues raised by our task team and by the public during the February public meeting. Inputs from these processes contributed to the final programme as they highlighted some of the challenges faced by the people in different local municipalities. So, the actual event in March was indeed a culmination of a long engagement process.

However, the basis of the reflection and assessment will be our strategic framework plan 2009 to 2014, and hon members will recall that in this strategic plan we identified the following priority areas as key to our oversight purposes: agriculture, education, economic development, health and social development, human settlements, police, rural development and land reform.

In the same strategic framework plan we also said that in the performance of oversight over the priority areas there is a need to look at the impact of vulnerable groups, including women and children. Oversight work should take into consideration government's commitment to job creation and the improvement of the living and working conditions of the people.

So, when we debate this report, we must ask ourselves these questions: What impact have we had on the 29,6% of the population of Gert Sibande District, who are residing on farmland and do not own the land on which they live, which means that they do not qualify for receiving housing subsidies, which come with proper services?

We should be asking: What difference did we make to schools in the area that have challenges such as a lack of proper infrastructure and sanitation; nonfunctioning school governing bodies; teenage pregnancies; a lack of security at schools; and no scholar transport?

What is the legacy of our visit to the district that has the highest number of people infected with HIV and Aids in the province and in the country? Did our visit improve service delivery challenges that have been compounded by the lack of basic infrastructure such as electricity, access roads and water shortages, which leads to immense poverty and unemployment?

These are some of the questions that we must ask ourselves so that when we report back we will be able to say that we did indeed execute our mandate when we visited Gert Sibande District in Mpumalanga. This is the essence of the oversight mandate that we carry as Parliament. I must say that during the programme in March, we managed to visit sites that covered all these areas.

Now that we have engaged in dialogue with the people of Mpumalanga, the next logical step is to forge ways for the desired solutions. These are the solutions that are contained in this report we are debating today, in the form of recommendations. We do this because the Constitution strategically places us, as the NCOP, in our inter-governmental relations system to perform this task or mandate.

The Constitution says all spheres of government - national, provincial and local - have to make it easy for people to participate in government. However, government alone cannot build a better life. The communities and all stakeholders have to be partners of government. So, it is us, Parliament, as the voice of the people, who must encourage people to participate in government programmes, as we have done in Mpumalanga.

This Taking Parliament to the People programme in Mpumalanga underscored the importance of people's involvement in their own governance. It communicated a clear message to our people that nothing about them can ever be done without their presence and full participation.

The information from this kind of exercise must be used to write a situational analysis and to assist Parliament to assess the executive's programme in implementing priority action for the people. The information also equips MPs with the information they need to draft questions for plenary sessions and to participate in debates on the topic. This is exactly what we must do, as this report attests to.

The report, among other things, makes the following summary of the key emerging trends in the findings: a lack or inadequate monitoring and evaluation of the activities of the district municipality and the management of various community projects; a lack or low levels of accountability within the municipality and some community projects; generally, unprofessional behaviour displayed by nurses towards patients, in particular towards the elderly, like me; the local youth's lack of the skills that are required by the economy, which accounts for the high level of youth unemployment in the local and district municipality. It is for this reason that local mining companies import skills from outside the district municipality. There is also a lack of or inadequate training and mentoring support for community project beneficiaries, as well as allegations of corrupt practices.

Members will agree with me that these challenges contradict the commitment of our government of ensuring a better life for our people. They also border on violating the right to dignity of our people. These, therefore, have the following oversight implications for us: We should ensure that the implementation of all recommendations and/or oversight implications is monitored and followed up by the relevant committees, in collaboration with provincial portfolio committees. We should also ensure that all the recommendations and/or oversight implications are integrated into relevant committee programmes for follow-up purposes.

Some key conclusions can be drawn from the report. These include the fact that the follow-up programmes, the last phase of the programme, are vital for us to ensure that it vigorously assesses and monitors programmes and proposed intervention strategies that have been made during the main event. [Interjections.] Hon Gunda, don't interact with other hon members!

It is also essential for us to ensure that all promised or proposed intervention strategies are tied to timelines or deadlines. [Interjections.]

Mr K A SINCLAIR: I rise on a point of order, Chair.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F A Adams): Hon Memela, please hold on a bit. Hon Sinclair?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Hon Chairperson, can you please ask the hon member to differentiate between her roles as chairperson ...

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F A Adams): No, no, no, that is not a point of order. Take your seat, please. Hon Sinclair, I am warning you for the last time! Take your seat! Hon Memela, you may continue. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): You can wait for me outside. [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F T Adams): Hon Sinclair, it is unparliamentary to interrupt an hon member with such a remark. Can you please stand up and withdraw that remark?

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Sir, I don't think it is unparliamentary to say the hon member is out of order. I am prepared to withdraw it but I will meet her outside. [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F A Adams): Thank you. Continue, hon Memela.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): This will assist Parliament to hold officials accountable and ensure that quality services are delivered to the people of the Gert Sibande District Municipality and the people of Mpumalanga province as a whole.

Both the leadership of the province and us, as the NCOP, are committed to addressing the challenges listed in the report. In fact, some work has begun already. For example, an investment in six community home-based care projects by the Nkomati Mine to the tune of R16,7 million is to be launched soon. It is a direct outcome of our intervention.

I would like to thank members of the executive for their support of the programme. I also wish to thank them for their continued responses to the challenges we picked up. Last Friday, the Minister of Sport and Recreation invited us to Carolina to witness delivery on the commitments he made to the schools in the area in the form of sports equipment, attire and facilities. [Applause.] We were ably represented by the Chairperson of the NCOP. Other developments are still to be launched.

I would be happy if a programme is developed before the end of the term to ensure that we follow up on all the outstanding work in respect of Taking Parliament to the People programmes that took place this term.

When we embark on our post-visit phase or follow-up visit to Mpumalanga, we must evoke the tenacity that Richard Gert Sibande had during the 1959 Potato Boycott. The poverty that made Comrade Gert to rise up against the authorities in 1959 still persists today. It is therefore up to us to ensure that we win this battle, like the Lion of the East did in 1959. [Applause.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 184


Mr S P D SKHOSANA (Mpumalanga): Hon Chair of the session, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP and hon members, in the limited 10 minutes that I have I want to state the following. As always, I am honoured by this opportunity to take part in the NCOP deliberations today under the theme "Socioeconomic development through public participation and oversight".

Practically, this is an exercise that enables elected public representatives to play a meaningful role in the execution of the constitutional mandate and powers bestowed on us in our respective stations of governance and accountability. This governance and accountability is underpinned by the imperatives of the multiparty democratic system and the ongoing process to reconstruct and develop our country, especially the Gert Sibande District.

It is common cause that our National Council of Provinces, as the second wing of Parliament, is the custodian of the promotion of the values of human dignity, equality, nonracialism, nonsexism and participatory democracy. Thus, it is often necessary to maintain a continuous connection and communication between Parliament, the legislatures and the executive with the people, in a palpable and actual sense that exhibits practical and real meaning to all that our democratic system embodies.

More often than not, this process should enable us as public representatives to assess or establish the legislation and policies that we pass, so that they will have the desired impact on the lives of our people. In the same breath, it will enhance and strengthen the legislature's ability to exercise oversight over the executive and to similarly enable departments to provide tangible support to the local government and municipalities.

The recent Taking Parliament to the People programme took place under the current theme "Socioeconomic development through oversight and public participation". Undoubtedly, this is salutary and wise guidance since by common definition Taking Parliament to the People is not an event but a process, driven and inspired by the ethos of public participation, on the strength of which government seeks to meet the socioeconomic needs of our people.

Consequently, throughout the week of 11 to 15 March 2013, including 18 January 2013, ordinary people of Gert Sibande District, as well as Chief Albert Luthuli Municipality, had the rare opportunity to interact, communicate and engage with their elected public representatives and to share their concerns and views about the three spheres of government programmes. of which we have taken heed. Hence we have this important gathering here today.

I have neither doubt nor illusion that it is through consistent and intensive interaction and in listening to the people, that we as government can give effect to the goals of reconstruction and development. South Africa elected to be a democratic and developmental state, rather than a welfare state. We need to empower our people in terms of skills development so that they should not be passive recipients of social grants. We cannot encourage a dependency syndrome among our people but we ought to create an enabling environment wherein our people can become self-reliant and self-sufficient in a sustainable manner.

We have received the NCOP's detailed report that is under consideration in this august House. It is indeed detailed, with findings and recommendations on implementation, which will duly become the NCOP's resolutions. When we were at Chief Albert Luthuli Local Municipality, you rightly made stern and revolutionary commitments to the people of Gert Sibande District to the effect that this report, after it had been debated and adopted by this august House, would be dispatched and distributed to all and sundry in the three spheres of government.

As the MEC for the department of co-operative governance and traditional affairs, Cogta, in Mpumalanga, I can also confirm that my comrades in the executive council in the Mpumalanga province will study every section of the report thoroughly and further ensure that the resolutions of this House are implemented meticulously and without failure.

I have noticed, for example, that in some critical areas the report does not have deadlines or timelines with regard to the commitments that we have made to the people of Gert Sibande District and Chief Albert Luthuli Local Municipality in particular. As the Mpumalanga province, we commit ourselves here to ensure that timelines and resources, both in terms of financial and human capital, are attached to these recommendations. We must track their implementation on a monthly and quarterly basis.

The NCOP report came at the appropriate time, when we have just finalised our respective annual performance plans and budgets for the municipalities for the 2010-13 financial year. The issues raised during sessions of the NCOP have found meaning in the integrated development planning of the municipalities. When one considers the extent of the problems in these municipalities, especially municipalities that used to be under the administration of the former Bantustans, which have high rates of unemployment and profound levels of poverty, the available resources are not enough to effectively and decisively address all the service–delivery matters as reflected in the NCOP report.

This august House should also assist in terms of the injection of more funds to the province without concentrating on the size of the population but considering the rural nature of the province and the apartheid legacy, and further urge its respective sector departments to come to the party.

The municipalities should not suffer the burdens and/or omissions of the respective departments both at provincial and national levels. Schedule 4 clearly outlines the functional areas of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence and Schedule 5 outlines the functional areas of exclusive provincial legislative competence. The ordinary person on the street may not understand the segregations of these powers, functions and responsibilities as we do.

I have also noted with keen interest allegations of nepotism and/or cronyism in as far as human resource issues are concerned. Our view is that where human resource procedures have not been adhered to, corrective measures will be taken and we expect the municipality to provide a detailed report.

We will also ensure that community meetings are convened by the relevant structures, such as the ward councillors and ward committees, to give feedback on actions taken in all the areas of concern that had been raised during the public hearings.

While we perform our legal duties, we will also ensure that the rule of law is applied to its logical conclusion. However, there is a need to strengthen public education on the exercise of democratic rights when there are genuine grievances, so that our people begin to understand that while they have the right to protest, they also have a responsibility to avoid the destruction of the very structures that are meant to be used for service delivery. It does not make economic sense to burn a clinic, library or a municipal office that is a means of service delivery when people need water. Our people must understand that, as government, we operate with limited and scarce resources. Therefore, to burn a clinic does not add value to the exercise of their democratic rights.

It is my respectful opinion that our school curriculum should also include subjects on public participation and involvement in the running of the country, so that we can have citizens who are patriotic and responsible, and who know their rights and responsibilities.

Allow me to conclude with the words taken from the epilogue written by Chief Albert Luthuli in his autoiography, Let My People Go. Written in the darkest period of apartheid, it ends with this message:

The struggle must go on -- the struggle to make the opportunity for the building to begin. The struggle will go on. I speak humbly and without levity when I say that, God giving me strength and courage enough, I shall die, if need be for this cause. But I do not want to die until I have seen the building begun. Mayibuye I Afrika! Come Africa, come!

Indeed, Africa is now in our hands. Unfortunately, Chief Albert Luthuli died without seeing the building of our new nation. The only monument that we can build for him and other stalwarts is to ensure that we march towards the 20th anniversary of our freedom with the confidence and strength to build a responsive, accountable, effective and efficient local government system for the attainment of socioeconomic development for our people who are all entitled to have a better life, here and after death. [Applause.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 185

Mr S P D SKHOSANA (Mpumalanga)

Mr H GEYER (Western Cape): Temporary Chairperson, hon members, the visit of the NCOP to the Gert Sibande District Municipality in Mpumalanga with the Taking Parliament to the People programme over the period of 11 March to 15 March 2013 was, to say the least, an eye-opener.

Despite the fact that an outreach was made, it was initially met with protest and allegedly the partial destruction of housing list records. To select the Carolina area per se was indeed the correct choice, as the area is lacking efficient service delivery and proper control by supervisors on different projects. Carolina has been in the news for some time now and it appears as if mining activities in the area have grossly affected and contaminated underground water sources, which has a serious effect on the fauna and flora. Reports reveal that lead and other chemicals from the mines have seeped through into the water, making it undrinkable.

Water was supplied to the area with tankers, yet even this arrangement had to be cancelled due to the fact that local residents burned the tankers that were hired. What would inspire an act of this kind, of virtually biting the hand that feeds you? It is clear that there is anger among the citizens of this municipality with regard to the manner in which the services are rendered. As we sit here, I believe there is a march taking place towards Carolina today, with people protesting against poor service delivery. What is the bottom line? The bottom line is that people are suffering.

This visit was an eye-opener, for there is so much dissatisfaction and wrongdoing. Apparently, action has only now been taken towards mines by means of directives. Surely this must have taken place ages ago to ensure a safe environment for all. I sincerely hope that the action that the hon Shabangu has taken to ensure that the mines take the responsibility to clean up the damage they caused to the environment will succeed.

While addressing the aspects of water, we must not forget that water is the one commodity we cannot do without. We must therefore conserve, safeguard and extend our water resources. Not only are we compelled by the Constitution of this country to ensure that our citizens have access to clean drinking water but we must also not forget that the demand for water will constantly increase as the population growth increases. Yet, at this moment, silting in two dams in Ermelo has proved to be problematic. Due to silting, these dams have lost 25% and 35% of their capacity respectively. I am pleased to hear that a task team has been set up to address this matter and additional funds have been set aside to develop pipelines for temporary water storage tanks. Is this the answer, because this is only temporary? There is an Afrikaans saying:


Vir eers is vir altyd. [For the time being is forever.]


I was fortunate to visit two agricultural projects, yet I virtually had to grasp my heart after beholding the utter waste of taxpayers' money due to bad management, lack of control and the incompetence of senior officials. It is to cry over. The President handed over tractors in June 2010 at Marapyane village for the Masibuyele Emasimini programme. Yet this programme was no longer providing technical and infrastructure support to deserving land reform beneficiaries. The tractors were not being used optimally and access to the tractors has been denied, leading to a decrease in production and, subsequently, the hampering of self-sustainability.

The worst is yet to come. During our visit, we visited a nursery, a R3 million project under shade netting, where approximately 7 000 apple trees were to be grown. It is in absolute shambles. The shade netting, which comprises R600 000 of the total project, is on the ground, torn to shreds. I have video clips of this. What is more is that the contractor left the site before completion and, to add insult to injury, the desperate beneficiaries were left with a Eskom electricity account of R15 000. However, the cherry on the cake was the fact that the senior official in charge of this project was conveniently and/or unmistakably not available to answer to the questions. The recommendation of the NCOP group was that this official be charged for negligence. My question is: Has this been done? Do we follow up on atrocities like this, or do we merely move on?

The other site we visited was a strawberry project in ward 15. This venture cost the state R4,5 million. I am in possession too of photos and video clips that show the total devastation and ruin of an enterprise that had an undertaking for the export of strawberries. This site, which comprises approximately 4 ha, has been totally ravished. Even the office building has been vandalised and stripped of doors, windows, electric cables and fittings. Once again, one needs to ask the question: Where was the control and management? Are these officials going to be held accountable and/or brought to book? Authority, guidance, discipline and good management all rest with the leadership. It is sad to observe that all the hon Siwela, MEC for agriculture, rural development and land administration, had to say was that she appealed "to the public to be active in reporting wrongdoing by the officials" of her department. She further said that her department "had zero tolerance for corruption".

These are fine words, but what has transpired since our visit two months ago? One gets the impression that Taking Parliament to the People is not doing justice to what it was intended to do but is merely a political rally by the governing party. You cannot give a child an ice cream and tell him to stop crying while there is a festering thorn in his foot. You must remove the thorn. My question to this House is: Are we removing the thorns in desperate societies? Are we merely carrying on regardless?

The hon Pieter Mulder, Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, promises that his department will do everything possible to assist in reviving the strawberry farm project, since he believes that it has the potential to create the much needed jobs. My reaction, with all respect to the Deputy Minister is: You wish! It is clear that the Deputy Minister has not been there for some time and his statement is purely to give the people in need false hope.

The answer to this problem is mentorship. We cannot expect beneficiaries and/or beginner farmers to do it on their own. They need mentors to lead the way - as we do in the Western Cape. Has the time not arrived ... [Interjections.] Listen, please listen. Has the time not arrived for other provinces to ask guidance and assistance from the Western Cape as to how to do these things correctly, first time around? I will leave this booklet with you, Chairperson, which spells out the success stories in the Western Cape for beginner farmers who have now become entrepreneurs in their own right: the Seven Sisters wine, the Ericaville Farming Trust honeybush tea project in Plettenberg Bay, the peppers of Gladys Mawoneke, Siyazama Klipland table grapes, Elouise Josephs's marmalade project and Klein Ezeljacht apples and pears. All of this is in here. This is an eye-opener for you to read. Don't push away the hand that wants to help you. [Interjections.]

Facts speak for themselves, even now when members are so rowdy. The SA Institute of Race Relations clearly states that the Western Cape municipalities are providing far more free basic services than any other province. Some 82% and 69% of the Western Cape households receive free basic water and sanitation.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Order, hon Geyer. Hon Gamede?

Mr D D GAMEDE: Chair, will the member also give me that book? I promise that my committee will go and visit those companies to see whether those black people own those companies. [Interjections.]

Mr H GEYER (Western Cape): I am very glad to hear that. I will leave this book for you. I just want to say that this is in comparison – I have stated the 82% and the 69% of Western Cape households – to Mpumalanga, whose figures represent only 41% and 13% for free water and sanitation respectively. We must take hands. That is the right way to do it. Even if it is coming from the Western Cape, make use of this opportunity. I thank you. [Applause.]

Cllr M NKOSI (Salga)



Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 186


Cllr M NKOSI (Salga): Hon House Chair, hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon members, hon MECs, ladies and gentlemen, as the SA Local Government Association we are pleased to reflect on the successful NCOP event of Taking Parliament to the People, held in Gert Sibande District Municipality in March 2013.

This week's success lies in the manner in which the oversight role played by the NCOP brought together all three spheres of government to discuss socioeconomic development with community members and the general public. This role highlights the importance of public participation mechanisms when conducting oversight. As a result, numerous challenges facing community members were highlighted and assessed, and recommendations on remedial action were made.

Among the main challenges highlighted were the lack of adequate monitoring and the evaluation of activities of both local and district municipalities, as well as the management of various community projects. The Taking Parliament to the People week also highlighted that poor communication between residents or communities and government machinery is the key challenge and a barrier to quality service delivery.

Salga commits to providing assistance to the municipalities in enhancing their public participation strategies and mechanisms, such as ensuring the effective and efficient functioning of ward committees through the use of the functionality indicators such as submission and tabling of ward reports and plans to the council, covering needs and priorities for the ward; feedback on performance of the council's various line or service function departments and their impact on the ward; participation in plans and programmes of municipalities and other spheres of government impacting on the ward development and the monitoring thereof in order to ensure that the community has the opportunity to participate in its own socioeconomic development. However, it remains vitally important that the issue of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations is raised as being centrally important to ensure effective service delivery and socioeconomic development.

Many of the challenges highlighted during this week related to the interface between the three spheres of government and interdepartmental co-ordination. Problems relating to housing, water treatment and quality, and rural development programmes all have poor intergovernmental relations at the core.

National and provincial departments need to communicate and co-ordinate with municipalities when development projects take place within municipalities. Once projects are put in place, effective support to municipalities from national and provincial departments is vitally important to achieve socioeconomic development objectives. One such intergovernmental mechanism that needs to be used more effectively is the municipal Integrated Development Planning Representative Forum.

Because public participation is central to the IDP process, communities will not have the opportunity to interact with national and provincial policies and programmes if this process is not taken seriously by all spheres of government. Municipalities in rural areas, for example the Chief Albert Luthuli, Dr J S Moroka, Nkomazi and Bushbuckridge Local Municipalities, face the particular challenge of a lack of capacity, and thus effective support is even more crucial.

It is also important to note that the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has a very important role to play here and, as the custodians of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, they need to be part of the interface between local government and national and provincial departments. Strengthening intergovernmental relations means strengthening co-ordination, monitoring, evaluating and supporting policy implementation. The ultimate outcome of this will be increased accountability, which was highlighted time and again as a problem during the Taking Parliament to the People week.

Salga once again reiterates its commitment to fulfilling its constitutional mandate as the representative body of organised local government in the NCOP. As such, we will participate in the continuing oversight by the NCOP of the outcomes of the Taking Parliament to the People week. Through participation in committees, we will assist in ensuring that the implementation of recommendations is monitored and followed up on. Related to our local government mandate, this will include a particular focus on the affected municipalities, as well as on intergovernmental relations with other spheres of government.

The NCOP itself has shown how public participation needs to be a cornerstone of socioeconomic development. It is now important that effective oversight takes place to ensure that service delivery and socioeconomic development objectives are achieved.

On the commitments made by political leadership of municipalities to deal with concerns and challenges raised by communities, a follow-up will once again be made with the executive mayors of the respective municipalities and the House will be informed accordingly.

As I conclude, we would like to inform this House that the provincial executive in Mpumalanga has intervened in two municipalities, Emalahleni and Bushbuckridge Local Municipalities, by invoking section 139(1)(b) of the Constitution. The Mpumalanga provincial executive committee of Salga took a decision to note and support the provincial intervention and has since engaged with the MEC for co-operative governance and traditional affairs, the MEC for finance, the political office-bearers and the administrators of the two affected municipalities regarding compliance with section 139 of the Municipal Finance Management Act as well in order to ensure that we manage the intervention better.

We have also agreed on the development and/or updating of the procedure manual on the application of section 139 of the Constitution and section 139 of the Municipal Finance Management Act having regard to new and/or the latest legislative environment in this context going forward. Thank you. {Applause.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 187

Cllr M NKOSI (Salga)

Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Deputy Chair and colleagues, Taking Parliament to the People is indeed a very good programme. Yet, when we stand here today and talk about that week, we know what we experienced in Mpumalanga and how the people struggle. There is one thing that I took from Mpumalanga and that is that the people from Mpumalanga want to work; they have business plans, but assistance from departments does not exist. That is the biggest challenge that we are facing as the NCOP unit and when we go and do our follow-up.

We need to go and work with the people on the ground. We should see to it that the money that is supposed to go to the people in fact reaches them. While we are there on oversight, we all need to ask ourselves this question: How are the people spending their budget? There are good things in that province. I want to say this here today: Mpumalanga is not a poor province. It is a very rich province. If you took the development that has taken place in that province since 1994, it is a sign that they can sustain themselves and that they can create jobs. There is this idea that we must just create an atmosphere for people to get jobs. People, we must start owning the land! Our people must become owners of the land. We cannot just be workers, workers, workers. For how long are we going to be workers? We must be owners of the land. So, we must train our people, give them skills and educate them. We need to do that. I always say this and I always cite South Korea as an example. South Korea was very poor, but they have educated their people.

I believe that, as a government, we must educate our people. We must spend billions to do so. Give them skills in order to alleviate poverty and assist them to look after themselves. We can look after ourselves if we are trained and skilled. We can do that. We did it in the apartheid era. We looked after ourselves when apartheid wanted to destroy us, and that is why we are here today. So what is stopping us now that we are in power from doing the same?

It is very important that the national departments, provincial departments and private sector come to the table. Some of the mining houses are doing well while some are doing nothing. You cannot sit on the people's land while the people are not benefiting from that land.

The lack of clean water in Mpumalanga is one of the things that we really need to resolve. I want to thank the chairperson and every one of us who went there to see for ourselves. Taking Parliament to the People gave us the information and showed us the challenges that the people are facing. Now we need to go and implement the programmes and assist those people.




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 187


Mr M H MOKGOBI: Hon Chair, acting Chief Whip, special delegates and hon members, I rise on behalf of the ANC that liberated the people of South Africa. We want to congratulate the House for conceptualising Taking Parliament to the People. That is indeed a great achievement. Whether you go to Britain or America, you will never see a government as driven by the people as the South African government is.

Even those who are still in South Africa but are parasitic in terms of neo-liberalism are talking as a result of the struggle waged by the ANC, which was very inclusive, to liberate the oppressed and the oppressors and therefore welcomed them as part of nurturing democracy. We don't have any problem with that, because as the ANC, that is what we wanted before we even embarked on the armed struggle.

When we conceptualised Taking Parliament to the People, we took it from the history of the struggle. We wanted to pursue that mass mobilisation which, in essence, started to painfully weaken the apartheid racism. In 1952 there was the defiance campaign; in 1955 there was the real congress of the people, when they adopted the Freedom Charter; and in 1956 the women marched. All these are in the tradition of mass mobilisation. In essence, when the concept of Taking Parliament to the People came about, it was not necessary to demand freedom, but to demand that the basic needs of our people in this country were served. We do that through Taking Parliament to the People.

The people themselves must tell Parliament and government what they want. It is part of the so-called monitoring and evaluation. We are saying: Let the people assess government, because this government is not for tourists. If you go to some European parliaments, you will see MPs and Ministers acting like tourists. People are very far away. This Parliament is part and parcel of the masses of the people.

Therefore, it is important that we realise that even those who enjoyed the apartheid era, sleeping in bed with apartheid, trying to dress apartheid in nice clothes, are with us today. When they talk, they always want to condemn because they don't know the pain of a revolution. They are the ones who had the ambition to stop this. If it was not for the concerted effort of the ANC, we wouldn't be saying what we are saying today.

They must thank the ANC because they are part of Parliament today. We even condemned the racist approach when we introduced nonracialism. They must thank the ANC and say, "Well done, let us help you and make sure that we enhance the aspirations of the people, because that is what we are here for." [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Montsitsi, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, yes. I would like to ask the member a quick question. I would like to know whether it is possible ... [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Mokgobi, will you take a question?

Mr M H MOKGOBI: Comrade, you are welcome.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, I just wanted to ask whether it would have been possible for members of this House to get the information about the problems in Mpumalanga if it had not been for the programme of Taking Parliament to the People.

Mr M H MOKGOBI: My comrade, I will do research and answer you later. [Laughter.]

To go further, when we were at Gert Sibande, as the ANC, we observed our deployed cadres' commitment when they were engaging with the people and working at various site visits. We saw the passion that the deployed cadres of the movement had in liberating our people. They listened to people from Tweefontein about the police station that was supposed to be opened. The commitment has been made. At Tweefontein we also saw the shoddy RDP houses, yet there are good houses elsewhere. We saw the executive authority that deals with housing making the commitment to deal with that matter.

As the movement, we were also impressed when the leadership of the provincial government condemned what was happening at Mayflower municipal offices. But we are saying that, as the ANC, we brought the tradition of protest and we defend it. As long as people want to protest peacefully, it is their constitutional right to do so. People must not be violent and damage property, because it is theirs. It is part and parcel of service delivery. This will draw us back to go and get the budget for building those offices. Therefore, we are saying that people should protest peacefully. The executive Cabinet members, MECs, premiers, councillors and mayors should listen and engage with the people. As the ANC, that is what we are encouraging.

We have seen how the Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs and the premier resolved the issue of contaminated water in Carolina. That was very impressive. We encourage it as the ANC because the movement deployed these people. Today we speak here on behalf of a movement that monitors its leadership at various government departments. We are saying they should continue because they are doing nothing wrong. They have resolved the water problems.

The problem is that the ruling party will always be positive, while others will turn into some form of "third force", discouraging people not to drink the water, so that they can win political points. All parties must encourage people to drink that water because it is part of the basic services that the ruling party is providing. Now the water is clean and the Minister drunk it herself. Therefore, people must drink it and not listen to the "third force".

Another impressive event that we observed is what the Minister of Health, Dr Motsoaledi, has done. We have seen the dramatic presentation to the people of Gert Sibande of the mobile vehicles that will present a solution to the lack of medicine, doctors and treatment, in terms of the National Health Insurance programme. He has distributed cars that will move around so that the people don't have to. The cars will be servicing people in terms of an integrated health system. We would like to congratulate him. We would like to see others doing the same in terms of service delivery. We were all there and we saw those cars. They are very beautiful.

During the apartheid era, you wouldn't see anything like that. It will work. Now it is not only those who have medical aid cards that will enjoy health services. Through the National Health Insurance Scheme, even the poorest of the poor will benefit. I have never seen anything like it before. For the first time I saw them tackling HIV issues in one car; diabetes in one car; eye challenges in one car. Things are becoming easy. Indeed, working together we can do more. Viva, ANC, viva!




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 188


Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, when we were told that we were going to Mpumalanga, there was excitement in the voice of our Chairperson, hon Mahlangu. He was proud to take us to his province. I think we were all very happy to go with him. The results of that visit are now in our hands – and there is a reason why I say this.

The concept of Taking Parliament to the People is very good, provided the outcomes of such events benefit the communities visited. Nondelivery will give this House and Parliament a very bad name. Hon Priscilla Themba will remember that we had a public meeting at Driefontein, where a member of the public said to us: "Zuma was here, the NA was here and now you are here, but still nothing is happening for us."

We have to rectify that situation. There is a wave of discontent throughout South Africa, and particularly in local government in Mpumalanga, because of the lack of service delivery, lack of housing, lack of jobs, lack of communication and the influence of nepotism and cronyism. Local government is not in a healthy state and in 99% of the cases this is due to the lack of political stability and accountability to the electorate.

While the NCOP was in Gert Sibande District in Carolina, people of Ward 7 in the Chief Albert Luthuli Municipality were so dissatisfied with their political leadership that they burnt down the municipal offices and some machinery in Empuluzi. This happened for a reason. We need to know if those issues have been resolved and addressed. Was the ward councillor the only problem, or was she the scapegoat? We will have to ... [Interjections.]

Ms B P MABE: Chair, on a point of order: Is the member willing to take a question?

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I will meet this member outside too, hon Chairperson. [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Are you prepared to ... [Interjection.] [Laughter.]

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: I'm not prepared to answer her question. The department of education in Mpumalanga has certainly raised the bar on the two mega boarding schools at Driefontein near Piet Retief and the other at Amsterdam. We commend them for the project and hope that they will continue their endeavours to educate our children and our future leaders.

MEC Skhosana, during our oversight visit we have requested many reports, asking for feedback within 30 days and giving some a three-month deadline. I know the three months are not up yet, but in the case of the Qhubekani poultry project, the department of agriculture, rural development and land affairs had failed. They had to submit a business plan to the NCOP by 15 April so that the project could qualify for more funding. If it has not yet been submitted to the NCOP, this means that there is no business plan and the project cannot continue.

The Tau Kwena farm apple project in Ward 21 was promised many things, such as an investigation by the Hawks into this project; why the poles were not properly planted and what should be done; funding for water and electricity; and financial support for the outstanding bills. Apart from an engineer that paid a visit, the department of agriculture, rural development and land affairs, Dardla, has not delivered and there has been no Hawks investigation. Last week, the Minister of Sport and Recreation had a high-profile meeting there, full of fanfare. We are very glad that he did go there to present some sporting equipment.

The other great concern in municipalities is whether our section 56 and 57 officials have the required qualifications as prescribed by law. We were asking about this in so many of those municipalities and we need the feedback.

If the right things were done and all the promises fulfilled since our first visit in February this year, Taking Parliament to the People would be a very good event. But, as my colleague has said here, people are marching from Badplaas to Carolina. They would not be marching if there were nothing wrong.

In South Africa, 44% of people believe they must get violent in marches, and this is the scary psychology behind it all: Government does not listen until people get violent. Government must learn to respond. We should not have to go back to check - the specific departments must deliver.

I think we must also look at the manner in which we debate in the House. For instance, in Mpumalanga it was referred to that the premier of the Western Cape was not present. Then an hon member went off on a tangent, degrading the premier, who is also a member of this House. However, none of the other six premiers, who were also absent, were attacked in this fashion.

Anyone who lowers himself to that level does not belong in a leadership position and cannot set an example of leadership and accountability. [Interjections.] One cannot build a nation and good governance by means of gutter debate. It is necessary to remember that former President Nelson Mandela had a dream of a united rainbow nation in a constitutional, democratic South Africa. [Time expired.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 188


Nkul M W MAKHUBELA: Muchaviseki Mutshamaxitulu, Vaholobye na n'wina vakulukumba va Yindlu leyi, ndzi tale ntsako namuntlha loko ndzi yimile eka njhekanjekisano wa "Teka Palamente ... [Nkavanyeto.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Makhubela, there is no interpreting service. [Interjections.] Oh, it is on channel two, hon members.

Nkul M W MAKHUBELA: Eka Mutshamaxitulu, Vaholobye na Yindlu leyo xiximeka, ndzi twa ndzi ri na ntlhotlho na ku xiximeka loko ndzi yimile haleno eka njhekanjhekisano wa pfhumba ra n'wina ra "Teka Palamente yi ya Evanhwini." I pfhumba ra kahle swinene kambe matirhelo ya kona i yo tshikela Yindlu leyi yi tirha yi ri yoxe. A swi tshamisekangi.

Ndzi na ntlhanu wa malembe ndzi ri laha Palamente. Loko hi humile hi ya ehandle swivilelo hi leswi mi swi kumeke 15 wa malembe lama nga hundza. Vanhu va rila hi swilo swin'we, mati na mapatu.

Ku na xilo xin'we lexi ndzi lavaka ku tsundzuxa Yindlu leyi. Hi fanele ku tirha hi ri nchumu wun'we. Loko Vaholobye va mfumo wa le xikarhi va ya eka swifundzankulu tirhisanani na vona.

Loko hi ri eka "NCOP Provincial Week" hi kuma leswaku swirho swa huvo ya swifundzankulu, vaMPL, a va tivi nchumu hi leswi humelelaka etindhawini ta vona onge a va tshami kona. A va tivi mitirho ya vona. Hi laha ku tshamaka ku ri na ku kombisa ku vilela hi xitalo. Yindlu leyi ya swi kota ku yingisela swivilelo swa vanhu. Hikwokwalaho ka yini hi nga tirhisani?

Nkulukumba Mahlangu, Mutshamaxitulu wa Yindlu leyi, u fambafamba tindhawu hinkwato. Loko hi ya eka "Teka Palamente yi ya Evanhwini", u va a vonane na ku vulavula na vona. U kombisa ku chivirikela vanhu va yena kambe u kala mpfuneto. Ku hava lava n'wi pfunaka.

Loko Presidente a ya fika hi siku ro hetelela ku ya vulavula na vanhu, Vaholobye na vaholobye va swifundzankulu a va tihumelerisi. Xivutiso i ku, leswi Presidente a nga ta swi vulavulaka swi ta yingisela, ku endliwa na ku fambisa hi mani xana?

Tatana Mahlangu, eka malembe lamataka Yindlu leyi, vaholobye va swifundzankulu na swirho swa palamende ya swifundzankulu a hi veni nyandza yin'we hi tirha swin'we hi tirhela vanhu. Yindlu leyi yi tirhile swilo swikulukumba swo chavisa. Hikwalaho ndza yi xixima. A hi tirheni hi ri nyandza yin'we.

Ku tshaha switsongo, loko hi ri eGert Sibande ndzi chavisiwile hi ku cema na huwa leswi a swi endla hi vanhu loko Vaholobye van'wana va vulavula. Xivangelo a va swi tolovekangi. A hi va toloveteni.

Swilo leswi nga endla hi Holobye Motsoaledi swi kahle swinene. Kambe swi fanele swi endliwa hi mikarhi ya kona ku nga ri hi nkarhi wo "Teka Palamente yi ya Evanhwini" onge mi fihla swo karhi. Swi fanele swi endliwa hi masiku man'wana.

Endzhaku ka mbulavulo wa Holobye wa Mafumele ya Vutirhisano na Timhaka ta Ndhavuko vanhu va n'wi vutise swivutiso kambe yena a hlamula ntsena leswaku hi ta fika hi tshama kutani hi vuya na tinhlamulo. Vanhu va lava ku twa tinhlamulo kwalaho.

Tatana Mahlangu, vulavulani na Vaholobye leswaku va fanele va mi hlonipha. Hi n'wina nkulukumba wa Yindlu leyi. A ku na un'wana loyi a nga ta fambisa Yindlu leyi handle ka hina. A hi tekeni joko hi ya emahlweni. Inkomu. [Ku biwa mavoko.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 189


Ms M G BOROTO : Chairperson, hon Deputy Chairperson, hon MEC Skhosana in absentia, our councillor from the SA Local Government Association, hon Nkosi, ladies and gentlemen, ...


... namhlanje ngijame lapha ngokuzikhakhazisa. Ngizikhakhazisa mayelana nalokho okwenziwe yiNdlu le, ngokuthi isuke la e-Kapa,

inqophe e-Carolina eMpumalanga. Ayikho enye indawo ebesingayikhetha ngaleso isikhathi ngaphandle kwe-Carolina. Senza lokhu ngoba sizalisekisa iithembiso ezenziwa ngabakhulu kithi begodu nabanye babo asele balalako, abasifundisa kuhle ngalokho okutjhiwo mtlolo we-Freedom Charter ukuthi: "People shall govern", "Abantu bazakubusa." Manje ngokuya kwethu eMpumalanga lokho kuzalisekile. Kuyatjengisa bona sikhamba ngomnqopho wamambala nokuthi begodu sinabo abezimu abasivulela iindlela nabasifundisako.

Ngikutjho lokhu ngikhulunyiswa magama avela ebantwini abangaziko nokuthi nasithi "Congress of the people" sitjho ini. I-Congress of the People, yahlonywa ngonyaka ka 1955. Yahlonyelwa kobana sithi nasikhamba ephasini lapha, sazi bona sikhamba phezu kwani.


There are footprints that we must follow. The most important thing that we have learnt is that we must listen to the people and thereafter show our commitment with regard to what we want to do. We always say that people should listen. Listening is a skill, enabling you to understand.

How many times have we told the opposition, the DA in particular, that because of the foundation we have, when it happens that the ANC falters, we always come back and rectify the mistakes that we have committed. Taking Parliament to the People is one of those things that show us when we have faltered. That is why the MEC for Cogta, hon Skhosana, was able to tell us about the progress that is being made.

Hon Van Lingen, you raised the challenges that we encountered there, such as nepotism, for instance. If you had listened carefully, you will know this was also raised by the hon Skhosana as a challenge that they were aware of and are working on. This is because we make sure that we rectify ourselves.


Angikuthokoze baba uMakhubela nawuthi: ...


... "We must work together." I wish ...


Ngifisa bona bakwizwe aborholi be-DA. Njengoba umhlonitjhwa u-Van Lingen akhuluma ukuthi sisahlele umhlonitjhwa, uNdunakulu weKapa Tjingalanga, u-Zille. Asikamsamhleli. Lokho usuyakutjho kodwana nangabe begade alale, ngiyathemba bona ubegade azakuzwisisa bona kungebanga lani sisakhuluma ngayo linto. Kungoba nakanye khenge simbone. Kutjho khona bona iTjingalanga Kapa ...


... is not part of South Africa. The Western Cape doesn't care about what happens to the people of South Africa. Having said that ...


Ngifuna ukutjho kubaba u-Gey...


... - I am not sure whether I am going to pronounce this correctly -.


...uGayser namkha uGeyser, okhuluma ngencwadi ... Ngifuna ukutjho godu ngithi...


... I am sorry if I pronounced it incorrectly.


... kodwana ngifuna ukutjho ukuthi incwadi akhuluma ngayo le ethi lapha eTjingalanga Kapa kune tuthuko [progress], sifuna ukwazi bona abantu akhuluma ngabo laba...


... are they part of those who were previously disadvantaged?


Nathi, nasingathi akhesiyeni eMpumalanga sifike singene ngaphakathi kwedorobha iNelspruit, zoke izinto azibalako encwadini yakhe singazithola. Lokhu kungebanga lokuthi thina sikhetha iindawo lapho kutlhagwa khona. Kanti-ke bona lapho kutlhagwa khona, njengeKhayelitjha nezinye iindawo, bayazibalekela.


They don't go there. So, those are the issues that they must look into. We have learnt from our elders.

Through public engagement, site visits and private ezibekhona [conversations] that were conducted, the people of Gert Sibande narrated the tragic and destructive path of apartheid-engineered settlement in their community. This is because they had confidence in us. The Deputy Chairperson of this House can attest to that. She was listening to people in private conversations. All those people were assisted because of this programme of Taking Parliament to the People, which is guided by the Freedom Charter, which was established in 1955 and which we still follow today.

The people of Gert Sibande also spoke of their poverty and the high rate of unemployment. We witnessed a number of projects as part of our national infrastructure programme to bring development to areas that were historically neglected.


Imikariso-mraro eyenzeke kileyandawo angekhe nayibona isinzeka nanyana kukuphi. Nangikhuluma ngemikariso-mraro ngiqalise ezintweni ezenziwe boNgqongqotjhe bethu abanelwazi mayelana neendingo zabantu. Njeke koke lokhu kutjengisa bona begade singakayeli ilize.

Iveke egadungileko nakube begade niqalile kibomabonakude benu, benizambona uNgqogqotjhe wezemidlalo, ubaba uMbalula, nabegade aletha iinsiza endaweni leya. Iinsiza ezivela kuphi na? Ezivela kilo lelihlelo lokuThatha iPalamende uyiTjhingise Ebantwini. Ngathana nimbonile! Abantu be-Gert Sibande sizobaqalelela njengalabo abangaphasi kwe-National Health Insurance, NHI, Pilot Region.


That NHI pilot region means that a lot of health programmes will go there as a pilot project. We have also seen the passion in our Ministers, who are prepared to walk the road with us. We also want to thank the legislatures, because without their involvement we wouldn't be having what the hon MEC of Cogta from Mpumalanga has described to us - those programmes in the integrated development plan, IDP - because that is what was raised by the people. Today those programmes are in the IDP of that province and it shows what we are doing and that people are not just complaining all the time.

In conclusion, the ANC shall continue in its quest to dismantle all the barriers of our divided past to ensure that all our people, including the people of Gert Sibande, enjoy a better quality of life. We shall unmask and parade those whose intentions are to continue to divide, mislead and exploit our people with lies and manufactured innuendo that they will liberate them from their plight, when in fact they too are part of the system and collective that presided over a national agenda to entrench systematic discrimination against our people. When you walk around, you find placards that say: "We fought against apartheid." How could you have fought against apartheid when the ANC started in 1912, whereas you were only there in 2002? How many ...


... kanti asikafundi na? Asikayi esikolweni? Siyayazi ... [Interjections.]

Mr W F FABER: Hon Chair, may I ask the hon member a question?

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon Boroto, are you prepared to take a question?

Ms M G BOROTO: Chair, I will take it afterwards, if my time allows me to, but not now. Let me just say this: We went to school.


Noma sifumene ifundo ngaphasi kwehlelo leBantu Education, iminyaka yona siyayazi. Ngonyaka ka 2002, bengihlakaniphile, bengikhulile begodu ngayibona i-DA nayihlonywako. Kodwana kunabantu abasitjela bona kukade basilwela ikululeko. Bayilwela kuphi bakwethu? Yekelani ukukhuluma amanga ngoba sele sisiya emakhethweni.


Hon Chairperson, thank you very much. We shall continue to fight and we shall continue to say that the ANC leads and the ANC lives. Amandla! [Applause.]




Wednesday, 22 May 2013 Take: 190


Ms T C MEMELA: Hon Chair, hon M J Mahlangu, the hon SA Local Government Association, Salga, representative from Mpumalanga and hon members, I thought we were a family. However, I can say here and now that when we try to till the land in preparation for planting the seeds of prosperity, especially for deprived communities, there are those who are prepared to put acid into those furrows and destroy the crop of development. The NCOP has a mandate to ensure that we actually look after our vulnerable crops.

I was a bit hurt when one of the DA members – especially because she is a woman – started degrading what was taking place in Mpumalanga. At the same time, however, we have not been drinking from the same well. That will always be the truth. If you have never slept for days on end without something to eat, you will never understand the plight of the people that we came across in Mpumalanga.

I say thank you very much to all the other members who were so committed to ensuring that we were on the right path – trying to change the lives of the people of Gert Sibande. Standing here, I am very proud of our Chairperson's intervention. Hon M J Mahlangu, keep it up! [Applause.]

The speaker before me spoke of private interventions and discussions with people who were completely down and out. The Speaker of Mpumalanga has reported back and the two projects in respect of which I pushed for intervention and improvement - the ones dealing with young girls and elderly men and women - have taken root. They are going to be launched soon.

Hon members of the NCOP, let us step back and do a retrospective analysis of ourselves. Let us actually look at why we are here. Is it for our own sake or are we following the mandate of helping vulnerable people out there? Chairperson Mahlangu, I say that the NCOP must never, ever denounce this programme. It is the only weapon we have to do the proper work and ensure that whoever is given a task for the upliftment of our people does the work properly. Thank you very much.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr F Adams): Hon members, we welcome back the Chairperson of the Council from a very tiring and robust session of the Pan-African Parliament, PAP, which he attended. Welcome back to the NCOP. On behalf of the Deputy Chair and the Whippery, led by Acting Chief Whip Boroto, we want to thank you for the discipline you have shown in the House during these debates.

The Council adjourned at 17:20.


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