Hansard: Questions for Oral Reply: Deputy President; Cluster 3: Governance
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 12 Jun 2012
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Minutes
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WEDNESDAY, 13 JUNE 2012
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 15:01.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
FIRST ORDER
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START OF DAY
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY –
Question 5:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, there is no United Nations resolution calling for a ban on oil imports from Iran. It is, in fact, the United States of America that is imposing sanctions against foreign banks engaged in transactions with the Central Bank of the Islamic Republic of Iran or United States-designated Iranian banks. These sanctions are particularly stringent with regard to petroleum-related banking transactions.
Our visit to Ghana focused on energy, which included both oil and gas. We have always tried and we will continue our efforts to diversify our energy supply. In fact, every country in the world whose economy depends on oil will continuously seek to diversify its energy supply with the view to ensuring security of supply in the long run. I thank you for your attention.
Mr N SINGH
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, thank you, hon Deputy President, for that response. I think there was a gremlin or a misprint when the United Nations was referred to - it should have been the United States, and I am sorry for that. However, I picked it up a bit too late.
This arose from reports – and I want to emphasise "reports" - by certain newspapers that the United States was going to threaten to disallow any country from doing business with its Federal Bank if they bought oil from Iran. However, we have noted in recent times that our oil imports from Iran have reduced drastically. We welcome these new initiatives to look elsewhere in Africa and other parts of the world for oil supplies, because if we look at the fluctuation in the price of crude oil, we notice it has been as low as $30 a barrel, going right up to $145 a barrel. In addition, fuel to the consumer went from R3,50 per litre 10 years ago to R12,20 per litre a few weeks ago.
The question, Mr Deputy President, is this: When the US threatened to impose the sanctions on our banks, did government consider the impact it would have on our relations with the Federal Bank of the United States, vis-à-vis our banks here in South Africa? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon member. Yes, the sanctions targeting banks do indeed affect us. However, the United States has since extended what they call "an exception" to South Africa for 180 days. What that means is that we have the right to continue sourcing fuel from Iran. However, during those six months, we have to keep them posted and they monitor whether our quantities are decreasing or not. This means that in the next 180 days, when they review that on the basis of the volumes, they may decide that they will indeed impose sanctions against our banks, and so on. So, that is why we have to ensure that we navigate properly and do not expose ourselves and South African banks. Thank you.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Deputy President, to follow on your response, we welcome the initiative, particularly in terms of regional integration and looking at the continent of Africa as a whole. Arising from the Deputy President's reply, firstly, has he looked at a country like Angola, particularly regarding the issue of oil, and what is the strategy around that? Secondly, in terms of our own home-based resources, what is his projection regarding the depletion of energy resources and is there a strategy to explore more in terms of mining at home? What is the strategy? Has a plan been put in place around that particular aspect? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we are not only focusing on African sources. We are also looking at countries such as Saudi Arabia, because the refineries in South Africa also determine what type of crude oil we should source. If the oil is heavy, it will not be cheap to process it here. So, we look at all those options and we are quite confident that we should be able to have security of supply. We will continue to diversify. It is an ongoing process, because, as you know, you cannot rely on one source, because the wells may dry up or something else may happen. So, it is important to always ensure that we have alternatives. Thank you.
Mr L W GREYLING
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L W GREYLING: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, as you stated, South Africa is one of the few countries that were granted a six-month grace period in which to secure contracts to substitute for our Iranian crude supply. However, given that 30% of our current supply comes from Iran on a term contract, we are under extreme pressure to tie up alternative contracts within the next four months if we are to ensure security of supply.
Is this work being left solely up to PetroSA, or is the government at the highest level engaging with oil-producing countries to secure a future supply? I ask this because Nigeria recently indicated that it could not secure contracts with PetroSA, as it had to be a government-to-government contract.
Now, Nigeria will be publishing the list of countries that it will be supplying at the end of this week. Can South Africa therefore expect to find itself on this list? If not, will this indicate that South Africa is not taking this issue seriously enough, and what will you do to ensure that we have alternative supplies in place within the next four months? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Greyling. In fact, we do both. We do not rely only on PetroSA or the South African oil companies. As government, we also engage sister governments to ensure that the supply can be secured. We engaged the government of Nigeria. As you know, I hosted the vice-president of Nigeria and in that binational discussion we agreed that South Africa would indeed secure supply from Nigeria as well. However, as I indicated earlier, we have to do other things too. For instance, we have to ensure that the refineries are in place to process that kind of crude oil as well. Thank you.
Mr S J NJIKELANA
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr S J NJIKELANA: Speaker, let me also commend the government for defending the interests of the country in the face of the increasing importation of petroleum products, as well as the creative ways in which it is seeking diversification in the importation of crude oil against these unilateral and unwarranted sanctions by the US against Iran. Of course, these measures do not provide a comprehensive and lasting solution to the fundamental challenge of the security of supply in South Africa.
Now that the government has been to Ghana and other oil-producing countries in pursuit of the diversification of the oil trade, the question is this: To what extent is the government content with this initiative and with our refining capacity as a country, and what are the implications of its trade with Iran, in particular? Ndiyabulela. [Thank you.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, hon Njikelana, in fact, the current arrangements do take care of our fuel needs. What we are busy with now is to ensure that we also have contingency measures, because our storage facilities also need to be filled up. We have good relations and goodwill with many oil-producing countries. So, we can source from almost all of them. The only challenge we have is that due to the way our refineries are configured, they work better with light oil. That is why countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran are important sources. In addition, as you know, we source only 29% to 30% of our crude oil from Iran. So, when we begin to diversify, we will reduce that percentage to acceptable levels so that we do not remain as vulnerable as the situation would make us were we not taking these precautionary steps. Thank you.
QUESTION 6
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QUESTION 5
Question 6:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, at the Cabinet lekgotla in July 2011, the Cabinet identified the 21 poorest district municipalities throughout the country. The Amathole district, under which Elliotdale and Mbhashe Local Municipality fall, is one of them. The Department of Rural Development and Land Reform has conducted socioeconomic surveys in Elliotdale, in wards 18 and 28, in which Mbhashe Local Municipality and community profiling reports have been produced.
I am informed that the following projects are being implemented: household water connection across the Mbhashe Local Municipality, including Elliotdale; a housing project in Elliotdale; 25 household gardens were recently completed; 50 hectares of arable land has been cultivated; the Eastern Cape department of rural development and agrarian reform is supporting the community of Elliotdale with agricultural inputs; 10km of fencing of the arable land has been completed; and 15 co-operatives have been registered.
Hon member, more details can be obtained from the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform. Thank you for your attention. [Applause.]
Dr Z LUYENGE
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
IsiXhosa:
Gqr Z LUYENGE: Ndiyabulela Somlomo, Sekela Mongameli, le mpendulo icace kangaka okwekati emhlophe ehlungwini, indinika ithuba elihle lokuba xa ndilandela la masebe ngamasebe athe anegalelo ekuphuhliseni abantu baseQhorha, ndijonge ze ndilinganise akwenzileyo ekunye noomasipala. Ndiyathembisa ke ukuba kwingxelo endiyifumeneyo kwezinye zezinto ozixelelwe ngamasebe, ndiya kuqinisekisa ukuba kwenzeka ngolo hlobo. Ndiyabulela.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Nami ndiyabulela. Enkosi. [Laughter.]
Mr G G BOINAMO
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr G G BOINAMO: Speaker, hon Deputy President, clearly the constitutional rights of the poor residents of Mbhashe Local Municipality are being violated. Firstly, 70% of the municipalities have no access to drinking water or toilets. Secondly, there are no ambulances in the area. It cost patients between R500 and R800 to hire a taxi to take them to the hospital. The people's constitutional rights for emergency medical services are violated. Can the Deputy President give a time frame within which everyone will have access to these basic services? Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Mr Boinamo.
Setswana:
Mong wa me, jaaka o itse gore bohuma bo aparetse naga yotlhe, nka se kgone go go raya ke re dilo tsotlhe tse di tlabo di diragetse ka Keresemose. Seo, se raya gore bonnye jo ke setseng ke bo kaile, ke tshimologo ya diphetogo tseo di tla diragalang kwa Mbhashe. Ke ka fao e rileng fa ke simolola fano, kare Tona ya rona ya Kago ya Metseselegae e dirile porofaele wa dikgaolong di le pedi tse go fitlhetsweng e le gore tota le moloi o pelo botlhoko tota fa a fitlhela maemo a di leng mo go ona.
Jaanong, se ke se kayang ke gore, se re tshwanetseng go se dira jaaka le re baemedi ba setšhaba mo Palamenteng ke gore re nne re latlhela leitlho, re seka ra ba lebala. Ntle le go dira seo, re tla tloga ra fitlhela e le gore fa morago ga dingwaga di le tharo tse di tlang, go tla bo se sa fetoga sepe. Ke tiro ya rona eo, e bile ke morwalo o re o rweleng mme re ikemiseditse go dira bonnye jo re ka bo kgonang go ba thusa gore le bona ba kgone go itirela. Ke a leboga mong wa me.
Mr P F SMITH
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr P F SMITH: Deputy President, don't you agree that this is extremely distressing? In fact, we have heard that your government has been delivering for 17 years. The new system of local government has been around for 12 years, yet we find the kind of situation that this question has alluded to. It is actually a disaster, to be honest with you. It is a disgrace. Now, I have two questions in particular. Firstly, would you not agree that this demonstrates an utter lack of local leadership? I mean, in today's media, for example, we have the mayor saying, and I quote: "I could not believe that there are still some communities in Elliotdale who are literally sinking in poverty." The mayor said that. Why does she not know it already?
The Amathole District Municipality issued a statement today. It said, "In the past the town received a small budget because it was allocated without any research being conducted." That is absurd, utterly absurd.
So, this is my first question to you, Deputy President: Is that not a crisis of local leadership? Don't you think people would have been better served if another party had been running the show? [Interjections.] Secondly, we have had a municipal turnaround strategy in this country for the past three years. It was launched by our President three years ago. Every municipality has a municipal turnaround strategy. Clearly, there isn't one here. My question, though, is: Why is it that the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, both provincially and nationally, has not pre-empted this and ensured that the situation has not arisen? How can we have a municipal turnaround strategy and yet still have this kind of crisis? It is absurd. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Smith, I could not agree with you more but I would not say it is absurd. I would say it is tragic, actually. I think it is a tragedy. [Applause.] I think it is a tragedy because we have all the following structures: political parties, community development workers, local councillors, ward councillors, public relations advisers, mayors, members of the provincial legislatures and Members of Parliament. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: And Ministers!
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Allow the Deputy President to respond.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, of course, if we have to go through the whole hierarchy, we have a Minister, a Deputy President and a President as well. It is tragic because this is the reality of our country. We have many struggling communities. As I have said, the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform actually went into two wards to do a profile. They have a profile of each household in those two wards. They have selected those two because they were the worst of a bad lot in that municipality. They were the worst of a bad lot. That is why the immediate intervention had to target them, to try and lift them out of the morass in which they found themselves.
Now, I am saying this is a tragedy because these are matters that we should have on our agenda and focus on at all times. However, even at the local level, you find from time to time that people are discovering that the community they are supposed to serve does not have the basic infrastructure meant to afford them a life as an average human being. So, to me, it is a real tragedy - without apportioning blame to one another. All I am saying is that it is a tragedy. We really should not have such areas without them being the focus of all our efforts. By the time the newspaper people or cameras go there, they should find that we have been seized with the attempt to initiate catalytic processes to lift these communities out of these difficulties. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M A NHANHA
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M A NHANHA: Hon Speaker, I was tempted to withdraw my supplementary question... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I will allow you to withdraw, hon member.
Mr M A NHANHA: No, please do not, hon Speaker. We have grown so used to responses such as, "Please give me specifics - you are being too vague." So, I must say, the honesty of the Deputy President is encouraging. [Applause.]
Deputy President, I welcome your response as it related to the Mbhashe municipal area. Unfortunately, I cannot let you off the hook, seeing that the opportunity to pose a question to the Deputy President of the country does not come all that often. Does our government have a plan to resolve the decay of infrastructure, particularly in the Eastern Cape? Statistics in the Eastern Cape show that over 85% of our cities' infrastructure is in total decay or has actually collapsed. Does your government have a plan to try and address this issue?
Deputy President, you will think this is an exaggeration, but it is the honest truth: In Grahamstown, where I live, a water pipe will burst just about every second day and the municipality will leave an open hole unattended for the next two months. This is either because they could not get parts because the infrastructure is so old or they could not get suppliers on time. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon members, the President has established the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission and through the Management Committee of the Secretariat, chaired by hon Minister Gugile Nkwinti, who is also the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, 23 strategic infrastructure projects have been identified. Some of them are already at the stage of being implemented. There is an effort to address the infrastructure backlog.
Part of the rationale behind it is to learn relevant lessons and apply them to the roll-out in the rest of the country. As you know, the issue of co-operative governance - the three spheres - can also thwart efforts to implement with the speed required. This is the reason that the PICC brings together local municipalities, through the SA Local Government Association, provincial premiers and Ministers at national level. It is to ensure that the lessons learnt from these strategic infrastructure projects will inform how issues of spatial planning can be improved upon in future.
We are confident that with this approach we should be able to nibble away at the huge mountain of social infrastructure backlogs. We need to reach an understanding at some point, so that we will have a template for the laying out of infrastructure, particularly in the rural poor municipalities that have no real revenue base to speak of, so that their responsibility will be to maintain rather than lay out infrastructure. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 7
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QUESTION 6
Question 7:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: South Africa's position on the current crisis in Syria is that all parties should adhere to the United Nations-led six-point plan of 5 April 2012 and the United Nations Security Council Resolution 2043, which provide the opportunity and basis for all Syrian parties to proceed with a Syrian-led national, peaceful dialogue towards a lasting political solution in Syria.
South Africa condemns the tragic loss of life of ordinary citizens and the destruction of infrastructure in Syria. In a statement to the United Nations Human Rights Council on 1 June 2012, South Africa supported a thorough and immediate investigation into the killings at El-Houleh, with the full involvement of the United Nations Supervision Mission in Syria and the Commission of Inquiry established by the Human Rights Council.
Our position is premised on our conviction that peace and political stability are preconditions for growth and development, also in the case of Syria. In order for that country to prosper, there has to be peace, the cessation of hostilities and political stability.
Rev K R J MESHOE
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, hon Deputy President, for that reply. I agree with the position that government has taken, but nothing seems to work, particularly given that the former UN Secretary-general, Kofi Annan, presented that United Nations plan to the Syrian regime and they don't seem to accept it. They don't seem to respond. Is there anything else that the Deputy President thinks can be done, because innocent lives, particularly of women and children, are being lost every day?
Something has to be done to express the outrage of countries like ourselves. We just say that we condemn what is going on. Obviously, anybody in the street can say "we condemn this". Government should be able to do more to put pressure on the Syrian government.
We also know that Russia and China are opposed to military intervention as a solution. So, what I want to know is whether, besides what the Deputy President has said, there is anything more that can be done, or will our government just tail behind China and Russia regarding the issue of military intervention? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, according to the UN Security Council, there are five permanent members who have veto power. So, regardless of what General Assembly members feel, believe and propose, as well as what four of the five permanent members of the Security Council and the rest of the nonpermanent members of the Security Council believe, one permanent member can veto any resolution if there is no consensus among the five.
That is the case with regard to Syria at this point. Trust among the permanent members was eroded by the manner in which the issues of Iraq and Libya were dealt with. We are in a situation where some of the permanent members are indeed mobilising, and are being frustrated, while others are of the view that there should be no regime change. What you are alluding to - military intervention, for instance, - has to be done under the auspices of the UN Security Council.
If forces were to go in there, they should be peace-making forces. They should also be capable of keeping the peace once it has been attained. At the moment, it is close to civil war flaring up there. The appeal to them to observe a ceasefire has failed. Former Secretary-general Kofi Annan has been there. He has been in discussion with all parties and still the fighting is raging on. It is actually getting worse.
An intervention would have to be a peace-making intervention, so that anybody who runs around armed should be knocked on their heads and those who are in uniform should be pushed back into barracks. Conditions conducive to dialogues should then be put in place.
There are those kinds of agendas. Unfortunately, we are small fry. We are a big country with great people when it comes to issues of human rights. However, in the broader scheme of things and in the way the UN Security Council functions, we are nonpermanent members with no veto power. We can only use soft power to persuade those with the real veto power to find each other and a common meeting point. Indeed, an intervention in that situation is called for sooner than yesterday. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
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Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Speaker, Deputy President, I think all of us and the whole world are concerned about the situation in Syria. My colleague, hon Meshoe, asked you what South Africa could do. I am afraid your answer came down to the point that there is actually nothing we can do. We support the resolutions of the UN and we sit back and hope for the best.
I think the situation in the whole of North Africa and Syria shows us that there is something wrong and that it is very big. We have had Saddam Hussein hanged; we have had Hosni Mubarak sentenced to life imprisonment and Libya's fate is the same. What needs to happen to the president of Syria? Is he just going to go on and on and on? Every day we read in the newspaper that another 30, 50 or 100 people have died. Isn't there something more constructive that South Africa can do? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon Van der Merwe, I will repeat myself for your benefit. I did not say we should just sit back and look at the situation as it worsened without doing anything more. I said we needed to persuade the powers that be. That is the best we can do under the circumstances.
There are only five countries that really have the veto power. We must persuade them to reach a consensus position that seeks to create peace, because peace won't happen on its own. Both the opposing sides are at a point where they believe they can rout the other. What is required is a peace-making force to be deployed and to also defend that peace, once attained. That is the best we can do. Resolutions can be passed in the General Assembly. If these five permanent members - or only one of them - adopt a different view, the entire UN is paralysed.
We have had experience of unilateral action in Iraq, for instance. Even earlier today, bombs exploded in Iraq, killing more than 60 people. It is important that the UN must take responsibility. The Security Council is responsible. The Security Council was established precisely for this purpose, but, of course, now the agendas don't seem to converge. Our role and responsibilities should be to be the conscience and to continue pointing out that this carnage is unacceptable. It should not be allowed to happen.
Mr I O DAVIDSON
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr I O DAVIDSON: Speaker, first of all I would like to express my appreciation for the Deputy President's response, particularly his sense of outrage and revulsion at the violence that has taken place there. We on this side of the House likewise expressed our view as far as that was concerned.
In terms of what we can do, I wonder whether we have explored all the possibilities. We are a member of Brics. We are a member of an organisation that, seemingly, in the geo-political world, is on the rise and can exert some sort of influence. Within that context, I wonder whether South Africa, as a valued member of that organisation, can't exert some sort of influence on Russia and China to come around, to make sure that Syria actually does implement the six-point plan. In fact, Ban Ki-moon indicated that Syria had unfortunately not implemented every aspect of that six-point plan. I wonder whether we can't bring our influence to bear in that context.
In another context, violence is spiralling out of control simply because of the import of arms into that country, primarily from Russia. In fact, this morning it was reported that military helicopters were delivered into Russia for the Syrian government in order to prop up that government. I wonder whether we should not be promoting a ban on all imports of any type of armament into Syria. In that regard we need to exert our influence in Brics on our partners there - Russia and China. We need to promote a complete ban on the import of arms into Syria. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon Davidson, yes, that is indeed one of the pressure points that we can try to exploit in order to ensure that there is such a consensus. As I said, our understanding now is that, on the one hand, these two - Russia in particular - is dead-set against regime change. On the other hand, the Arab League and other countries believe there has to be regime change. Within the Security Council, all these permanent members must agree or be persuaded to agree that there is a need for peace-making and that there will be investigations to ensure that whoever may have been responsible for the taking of innocent lives should be apprehended and later made to face the full might of the law.
I think the ingredients of a consensus position are available. The challenge is whether these very permanent members of the Security Council will be willing to send in their troops on the ground, because they are the ones who have the power and all the sophisticated weaponry and armoury. If they are willing to commit to send their forces to create peace, it should not be difficult under the UN auspices and supervision. It should not be difficult and then smaller countries like ourselves can go in and contribute towards the overall peace and stability in that country.
However, I agree with you that we can't sit back and do nothing about it. We need to keep on knocking on their door. The situation was much, much better two weeks ago. It has spiralled completely out of control now. I suppose Russia, China, the United States of America and the other permanent members are now persuaded that something should happen. There is a G20 meeting coming up. Our President will be attending. I have no doubt that this matter will also have to come up for discussion in the sidelines.
The SPEAKER: May I just remind members in the House that the idea is to keep your voices down. Believe it or not, we like to hear what the Deputy President has to say. We might want to hear what you have to say, but not in the House. This is question time to the Deputy President.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Speaker, I thank the Deputy President for the answer. Much as we are a small country, with 50 million people, as you said, would you not agree that, in the context of international politics of this nature, our voice remains very important and significant, given the status of South Africa as a country?
Secondly, we were very concerned that up until today there was no clear position regarding government's standpoint on what is happening in Syria. It is much clearer now. Will you be able to issue the same statement outside, so that our voice and South Africa's standpoint is at least clearly and loudly heard by everybody?
Lastly, in terms of the upcoming discussion in the UN, I assume from the President's response that we will take a very hard-line position with the representatives. I hope that we actually condemn it. We must ensure that changes happen for the people of Syria. Can we take it that that is, in fact, the mandate for that discussion?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, the position I am articulating is very consistent with those already articulated at the UN by South Africa's ambassador to the UN. It is public knowledge. We can repeat these positions here at home because they do actually represent government positions.
As I said, we really rely more on persuading those who really matter in this game than just issuing condemnation from a distance. I was in Turkey recently. It shares borders with Syria. In the press briefings I issued exactly the same statement - that we condemn the carnage and call upon the powers that be for peace-keeping. In our private conversations and at the press conference, these are the positions we articulate.
QUESTION 8
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QUESTION 7
Question 8:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Speaker, hon Singh, the role of the Leader of Government Business is not to deal with tenders, by the way. I get all these invitations because people say I am in charge of government business and they would like to be friends with me. [Laughter.] The role of the Leader of Government Business is to strengthen relations between the executive and Parliament. In this regard, I do meet with the presiding officers and other formations of Parliament, including political parties.
I also periodically meet with leaders of political parties on a one-to-one basis, in what are known as "meetings of four eyes", in order to discuss matters of mutual concern, as well as concerns that political parties may have with any of my colleagues in the executive.
Furthermore, from time to time the President himself convenes meetings with leaders of opposition parties. This confirms that there is a commitment to continue improving relations with Parliament and all the parties represented in Parliament, not only from the Leader of Government Business but also from the President. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr N SINGH: Hon Speaker, I thank the hon Deputy President for his reply. I trust that those "meetings of four eyes" do not refer to those of us who wear glasses. People who wear glasses are called people with four eyes.
Hon Deputy President, I welcome the initiative to meet with the leaders of political parties. I know you have many, many responsibilities and they relate to the strengthening of relations between the executive and leaders of political parties, also extending to Parliament.
When this question was tabled, we did not realise that what happened yesterday was going to happen. Sometimes such ugly spats, exchanges across the floor and the kind of remarks that are made really don't create a good impression of our behaviour in Parliament with the public who watch us on live television channels. I'm not casting aspersions on anyone or any political party.
I think there is certainly a need for the Leader of Government Business, together with the Speaker, to have more of these "four eyes meetings", so that there can be an understanding of the potential challenges that the executive or Parliament faces regarding the nonanswering of questions and other issues. There should be no need for the public to view us as people who constantly fight, enter into frivolous debates and insult each other in this House. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon Singh. Indeed, I agree that whenever misunderstandings arise, the Rules are supposed to guide what should then happen. That is the role of the presiding officers. If they give a ruling and the Rules are understood by all members of the House, it should be possible to avoid the kinds of actions and pronouncements that, as you say, confuse the general public out there.
However, in a democratic House, I suppose, walkouts are also part of the armoury of democracy. So, when they occur, they should be accepted in that spirit. It's part of it. Then, the next day, at the next item on the agenda, everybody is back, and we are all hon members and relate to each other as such. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER
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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon Deputy President. I think it's true that our democracy is recognised the world over as a young democracy that is vibrant, colourful and also very noisy! [Laughter.]
Mr A WATSON: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, you are quite right when you say that the relationship of the executive is with Parliament in the first instance and, in that regard, I state that you have a very important role to play as Leader of Government Business. I also concede that you have taken up the challenge with the "four eyes meetings" with the leaders of the parties represented in Parliament.
However, in that regard, I would like to ask you about a meeting you had with my leader and to follow up on it. What have you done since that meeting to keep your promise to make the executive in this Parliament more accountable in their oversight to Parliament by promptly and comprehensively answering the questions, not ducking and diving some of them, as has happened? This year again, the backlog of questions is clearly building up, day by day.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon Watson. Indeed, I do take up these issues regularly with my colleagues in Cabinet. The report of the Leader of Government Business is a standing item on the agenda of such a meeting, and one of the features of that report is the list of outstanding questions. I must say there has been improvement. There are Ministers who have no outstanding questions. We meet on a fortnightly basis and they have been able to answer all questions. There are those who have fewer than five outstanding questions. We do commend them in Cabinet as well. The President invites them to rise and bow to him, so it's a wonderful incentive of sorts. We say nothing about those who have six and more outstanding questions. The President orders them to stay in their seats and even threatens that the next time they will have to sit here on the floor. Thank you. [Laughter.]
Mr L S NGONYAMA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 32
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, I appreciate the hon Deputy President's response to the two questions. However, I would like to probe more so that we can understand this. Who is supposed to initiate these kinds of meetings? Can we as opposition parties and our leaders initiate them, or are they supposed to be initiated only by the Presidency?
Secondly, is it possible for the Deputy President to tell us how many meetings he has managed to convene, in particular with members of the opposition. These meetings are very, very important because, although we sit on the opposition benches, fundamentally, at the end of the day, we are patriots. It is therefore important for us to share some ideas and be able to understand the strategic direction that government is taking. I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, I thank the hon member. With regard to the question, the initiative can come from the leaders of the parties themselves, from my office or the Office of the President. All of these are in order. My last meeting with the leader of a political party was with the hon Mfundisi, the new leader of the UCDP. That happened last month. This month I haven't had a meeting with any of the opposition leaders at all. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon Deputy President. Hon Deputy President, you may leave if you wish, but you are welcome to stay.
QUESTION 110 – The MINISTER OF WOMAN, CHILDREN, PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 33
QUESTION 8 - The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Mr K P Motlanthe)
Question 110:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Speaker and hon members, I am sure the hon member will concur with me that the primary responsibility for economic development rests with, among others, the departments in the Economic cluster. Our department contributes to the economic development of people with disabilities through facilitating employment of people with disabilities within the workforce and through the Expanded Public Works Project. The department does not implement projects per se, but focuses on co-ordinating stakeholders to improve economic outcomes for people with disabilities. Within the context of its financial constraints, the department will, in this financial year, contribute to the economic empowerment of people with disabilities by, firstly, supporting applications made to the Jobs Fund, which focuses on employment creation for people with disabilities.
Secondly, it will provide support and guidance to the transformation process of sheltered employment factories and protective workshops. Thirdly, the department will facilitate linkages between enterprises and co-operatives owned by people with disabilities through the Industrial Development Corporation, the Department of Trade and Industry and the Comprehensive Rural Development programme. Fourthly, the department will capture the experiences of people with disabilities employed in the Public Service, as well as in the comprehensive rural development sites. I thank you, hon Speaker.
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Hon Speaker, on behalf of hon Mohale, who is not present at this time, I would like to indicate that she had no intention of posing a further question.
Mrs H LAMOELA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 33
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA
Mrs H LAMOELA: Hon Speaker and Minister, thank you for the information given, but it is well documented that persons with disabilities, especially those who have been living in impoverished environments, are known to be the poorest of the poor. So, economic development is of pivotal importance to them. What support mechanisms are you facilitating and co-ordinating across the NGO sector and with stakeholders who are contributing to the economic development of disabled persons, given the funding crisis faced by most of them? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, YOUTH, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Speaker, I think I have already answered the question asked by the hon member. I have explained that we are facilitating support through the IDC and the DTI, and we are also working with international donor organisations. We have met with the SA Disability Alliance, Sada, and Disabled People SA. We are working with them to come out with more projects that will assist them to create jobs and also set up their own small businesses. I thank you, hon Speaker.
QUESTION 93
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 34
QUESTION 110
Question 93:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Speaker, the Code of Good Practice on Disability in the Workplace falls within the jurisdiction of the Department of Labour. In this regard, my department works with the Department of Labour. We receive their reports, analyse and review them and also ensure that they follow the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. These reports demonstrate that we are not doing well in the disability sector, both within government and in the private sector.
Currently, we have a long way to go to achieve even the 2% target that we have set for ourselves. We are still far from reaching this target as a country, both in the public and private sector. Government is responding with regards to policy, job access and reasonable accommodation, and all of the above are part of the implementation of the Code of Good Practice on Disability in the Workplace.
The Mining Qualifications Authority is also developing reasonable accommodation for the mining sector. I think this is the work that has been done thus far towards the implementation of the Code of Good Practice on Disability in the Workplace. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Mrs C DUDLEY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 34
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, in the monitoring and consequent remedying of any failures, have you found, in the implementation of the Code of Good Practice on Disability in the Workplace, that the department has retained the clout it had when it was accommodated in the Presidency? If not, how do you intend to rectify this? Hon Minister, do you have statistics on the full extent of disability in the workplace? If not, have you implemented plans to ascertain this? Thank you.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WABASETYHINI, ULUTSHA, ABANTWANA KUNYE NABANTU ABAKHUBAZEKILEYO : Enkosi kakhulu, Sekela-Somlomo. Enyanisweni malungu ahloniphekileyo, andikabi nayo ingxaki oko ndiphumile kwi-ofisi kaMongameli kuba nokuba ndiphi na sukube ndithunywe nguMongameli. Ukuba kunokwenzeka ndidibane nengxaki kumsebenzi endiwuthunywe nguMongameli, ndiza kukwazi ukubalekela kuMongameli ukuze andilamlele. Kodwa ke ndihlonipheke ngokwenene koogxa bam kwaye akakho ongakhange asebenzisane neli sebe.
Izolo elinye siye saphakamisa umba woMthetho oYilwayo weeNkundla zeMveli, inene ugxa wam, uMphathiswa wezoBulungisa, ophakathi kwethu, uye wasebenzisana nathi ukulungisa lo Mthetho. Sifumana inkxaso engumangaliso ke nakweminye iMithetho esiyiphakamisayo exhaphaza oomama. Kungoku nje sixova uMthetho oYilwayo wokuLingana nokuLinganiswa kwamaLungelo Oomama [Gender Equality Bill]. Nalapho, sifumana inkxaso kurhulumente ngokubanzi, hayi kubaPhathiswa kuphela kodwa kubalawuli-jikelele nakumasekelaabo, akukho ngxaki sinayo.
Xa sigqitha apho, ndifuna ukuthi , kulongamelo lwethu, siye safumanisa ukuba, njengoko besele nditshilo, abantu abakhubazekileyo abakawafumani amalungelo abo ngokwanelisekileyo. Umzekelo nje omcinci ngowokuba phaya kwezothutho asikabi nazo izithuthi zikawonke wonke ezifikelelekayo kubantu abakhubazekileyo.
Okwesibini, sithe xa besiphonononga indlela yokuziphatha-[code of good practice] yabantu abakhubazekileyo, safumanisa ukuba ayingeni ngokubanzi ekujongeni umgangatho, nobungakanani bomsebenzi owenziwa ngurhulumente kunye nabantu abakhubazekileyo. Ngoko ke sifuna ukuthi, usemninzi umsebenzi ekusafuneka siwenzile ukuhlangabezana nokulwa kokufezekiswa kwamalungelo abantu abakhubazekileyo. Ndiyabulela.
Mev H LAMOELA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 34
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Afrikaans:
Mev H LAMOELA: Agb Voorsitter en Minister, daar word nou herhaaldelik gepraat oor alles wat geïmplimenteer gaan word vir gestremdes. Is daar enige tydsduurtes aan die projekte gekoppel om die doelwitte wat u stel rakende persone met gestremdhede in die werksplek te bereik, en wat is hierdie doelwitte per departement? Kan u vir ons daaroor inligting gee, asseblief? Dankie.
English:
Mr M WATERS: She hasn't even listened.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WABASETYHINI, ULUTSHA, ABANTWANA KUNYE NABANTU ABAKHUBAZEKILEYO: Andiyivanga kakuhle le ndawo ene-doel, yintoni i-doel? Lo matshini awusebenzi. [Kwahlekwa.]
English:
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You haven't been listening!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, do you mind repeating your question?
Afrikaans:
Mev H LAMOELA: Agb Voorsitter, u weet, dit is vir my nou skokkend om te sien en te weet dat die Minister nie die gehoorapparaat kan gebruik nie. Dit sê vir my dat ons nie regtig so ernstig omtrent hierdie portefeulje van vroue, kinders en mense met gestremdhede is nie. Die eenvoudig vraag wat ek gevra het was of daar doelwitte gestel is vir al hierdie projekte of vir wat gedoen gaan word vir gestremdes. Ek vra dit, want ons noem projekte, maar ons stel geen tydsduurtes aan hulle nie, met die gevolg dat niks ooit geïmplimenteer word nie.
'n AGB LID: Hoor! Hoor!
English:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Deputy Speaker, I think the hon member is actually misleading the House. The hon member must go and read the strategic plan of this department. Secondly, the hon member must read ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker! Deputy Speaker, on a point of order... Sit down!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There's a point of order, hon Minister. Order, hon members! I don't want to feel I am bad luck when I am sitting here.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Deputy Speaker, you have allowed the learned friend of your party to rule that it's unparliamentary to say that somebody is deliberately misleading this House. Now, the Minister of your party must withdraw the statement.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, she didn't use the word "deliberately". Did she?
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: She didn't, Deputy Speaker, and there is no point of order.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I didn't hear that. I heard the Minister saying the member is misleading the House. I didn't hear the word "deliberately". Did she say the word "deliberately"? [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WABASETYHINI, ULUTSHA, ABANTWANA KUNYE NABANTU ABAKHUBAZEKILEYO: Sihlalo, bendifuna ukuthi, lo mama makenze umsebenzi wakhe phambi kokuba aphakame athethe kwiNdlu endiliseke kangaka. Yonke le tshwaqane ayithethayo ikhono kwisicwangciso nkqubo sobuchule nesicwangciso sokusebenza sonyaka sethu. Ndicela ukuba aphindele kuyo ayifunde kakuhle. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
IsiZulu:
Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Sekela Phini, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, angazi noma ngikuzwe kahle yini ngenkathi uthi uMthethosivivinywa weziNkantolo zezeNdabuko ungomunye weMithethosivivinywa ohlukumeza abesifazane. Angazi noma ngikuzwe kahle yini?
English:
If that is the case, I would ask you, hon Minister, to specify exactly which clauses you are referring to. In this House, we have people who can authoritatively - authoritatively - talk about that Bill. We have the hon Chief Holomisa there and my leader here. In fact, if you look back into history, there was the Natal Code of Zulu Law, which undermined women and regarded them as children. It was abolished by our leader here.
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: This was not part of the question.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Now, I would really like to know from you which specific clauses are undermining women because if you take traditional councils, women are...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mpontshane...
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: That is not the question we are dealing with. We would like the member to align himself with what we are discussing.
An HON MEMBER: It is related!
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, do you want to answer?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: I think we will need another day to debate this issue, but I can answer the hon member by saying that the Traditional Courts Bill refers to the promotion of culture and tradition, and we know that not all cultural practices are progressive.
IsiXhosa:
Sinawo amasiko afana nokuthwalwa kwabantwana apho abantwana abeneminyaka eli-12 bathi batshate namaxhego angama-60. Sinawo namasiko afana nokungenwa ekuthiwa xa umama ebhujelwe yindoda, uyangenwa okanye uyaphuma? Xa ungangenwa uyaphuma emzini wakho nasemhlabeni wakho. Zonke ke ezi zinto sithi maziqale ziqwalaselwe kakuhle. Asiyiphikisi into yokuba sinawo umThetho oYilwayo weeNkundla zeMveli, asiyiphikisa into yokuba sinayo inkcubeko ...
SEKELA-SOMLOMO: Mnu Mpontshane, yintoni le uthi iphume ecaleni? Awoneliseki yile nto ayithethayo?
English:
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Deputy Speaker, can I address you on this point? I urge you ... [Interjections.]
SEKELA-SOMLOMO: Hayi, asiyonto iphume ecaleni leyo. Myeke aphendule. Mnu Mpontshane, awufuni esezolo; hlala phantsi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] phendula, Mphathiswa.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WABASETYHINI, ULUTSHA, ABANTWANA KUNYE NABANTU ABAKHUBAZEKILEYO: Okokugqibela, lo mthetho uyatsho wona ngokwawo ukuba amakhosikazi akuzange kuthethwe nawo ngawo, ingakumbi lawo asemaphandleni ekungawo aza kulawulwa zezi nkudla. Amakhosikazi athi afuna ukwazi ukukhetha – ukukhetha ungaxoxi kwiNkundla yeMveli. Ukuba ndibethwe yindoda eyinkosi andikwazi ukuphindela kuyo ixoxe ityala lam. Ukuba ndifuna ukuya kwiNkundla kaMantyi . . . .
English:
... I must be given the option to choose not to go to a Traditional Court. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members of this Assembly, I am somewhat mystified by the response of the Minister, because one is not compelled to go to a traditional court. One has the option to go straight to the Magistrate's Court and one is free to make any appeal. When that case is then heard in the Magistrate's Court, it is heard de novo. So, I don't understand what the Minister is saying. Also, in terms of legislation of this House, every traditional council in this country today has women. So, I am mystified by what the Minister is referring to, unless she is shooting from the hip.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WABASETYHINI, ULUTSHA, ABANTWANA KUNYE NABANTU ABAKHUBAZEKILEYO: Utata ndimhloniphe kakhulu kodwa ngoku uthetha ngeNkundla yeMveli mna ke ndithetha ngoMthetho oYilwayo ongeeNkundla zeMveli osetafileni e-NCOP. Loo Mthetho uYilwayo awuna…
English:
... that Bill has no option. You don't have an option in that Bill. You have to go to the traditional court ...
IsiZulu:
...ngisho usudlulisa icala baba. Kufuneka ulidlulisele kumuntu omdala wendabuko. [You must appeal to the traditional elders.]
English:
Maybe it's the same person who took the decision.
IsiZulu:
Umkhandlu wezendabuko baba, ngicela ukuthi sixoxe ngawo. Kunamaphesenti angama-30 amakhosikazi. Ayashoda amakhosikazi. Ngempela ngempela sifuna amakhosikazi angamaphesenti angama-50. Ngiyabonga [Ihlombe.]
QUESTION 136
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 35
QUESTION 93
Question 136:
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, let me indicate that the hon Minister Motshekga is "acting" and will be responding to this question.
Mr A WATSON: Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We have had an acting Minister who has been looking after this department. A new Minister was appointed, who was here until a few minutes ago. We cannot see the reason for the Minister to be absent.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member! In front of me I have a list. It says that a question directed to Public Service and Administration will be answered by a Minister - Minister Motshekga. Those arrangements were made between them.
The ACTING MINISTER FOR PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Regarding a single Public Service, there is no policy as yet, though work is at a very advanced stage. The idea behind a single Public Service is to provide for the organisation, management, functioning and personnel-related matters in the administration of the three spheres of government. The idea is to create a single senior management service cadre, thereby facilitating the mobility of these managers within the Public Service; to provide a framework for remuneration and conditions of service for the single Public Service; to provide for a human resource development strategy; to provide for the interoperability of ICT transversal systems and financial and human resource systems; to create common norms and standards for human resources management and development across the three spheres in order to facilitate mobility of personnel across the spheres of government; and to create a common culture of service delivery across the three spheres, based on the principles of Batho Pele.
The second question relates to actions taken to improve or effectively support the economic development programme. The outcomes-based performance management system, which is under way and was introduced in 2010, has ushered in a new way of managing performance in the Public Service. The government's focus on outcomes brings organisational performance as a key factor in the management of the performance of heads of departments to improve governance and accountability. So, the approach of organisational performance is to improve on service delivery (including job creation) that systematically contributes to economic development.
The legislation and plan on the establishment of a single Public Service has not been finalised. As a result, costing has not been completed. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr S J F MARAIS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 35
The ACTING MINISTER FOR PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, yes, my surname is not Marius but Marais.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Did I say Maria? You don't look like a Maria.
Mr S J F MARAIS: You initially said "Marius" and that is wrong.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is why I corrected it now, later on.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank you very much. I would have loved to compliment my new Minister on her dress today but unfortunately she left before I could do that. I also wanted to tell her that this is not classified information. So, it will be easier for her to answer in the future. [Interjections.]
Minister, it was reported to the committee that there are two options under consideration, those being the single Public Service and the integrated Public Service. What are the characteristics of this integrated Public Service? How does it differ from the single Public Service and why is it not being considered more seriously?
The ACTING MINISTER FOR PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chair, my information is that it is a work in progress. He will get a full answer later. [Interjections.]
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 35
The ACTING MINISTER FOR PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Minister, thank you for the information that this is a work in progress, but it has been a work in progress for a couple of years now. When is it envisaged that the "work in progress" will come to an end and a decision will be made? Is it still a problem because the union does not like one integrated Public Service? Is that the reason that this is not going to be completed, or what is the actual reason? This has been a work in progress year in and year out.
Sesotho:
LETONA LE TSHWERENG MOKOBOBO LA TSHEBELETSO LE TSAMAISO YA SETJHABA: Ntate, jwalekaha ke boletse, mosebetsi o sa tswela pele. Ha mosebetsi o se o fedile, o tla fumana tlaleho ya teng e feletseng. Ha jwale ke kopa o kokobetse matshwafo hoba karabo o tla e fumana. Mmuso ha o tate.
Mr A WATSON: Hon Deputy Speaker, I ask you to revisit my point because that response just illustrates the issue I raised earlier. "Work in progress" is not an answer. If the Minister was delegated to answer on behalf of the Minister and you had that in writing long ago, then she should have prepared the answer and not come here and do exactly what I asked the Deputy President to avoid, which is to fiddle around and give us a ducking-and-diving answer. [Interjections.]
Ms J C MOLOI-MOROPA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 35
Mr A WATSON
Sesotho:
Mof J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Ke a leboha Motlatsa Sepikara. Letona, ke rata hore o tiisetse Ntlo ena mme o re hlalosetse bohlokwa ba ho sheba mafapha wohle a mmuso. Lebaka la ho shebana le taba ena ya lefapha le hokahaneng kapa le le leng jwalekaha setho se hlomphehang se e hlalosa, ke hore ha re eme re kgone ho sheba mekga kaofela. Ke rata hore o hlalosetse Ntlo ena bohlokwa ba taba ena hobane ke rona Maloko a Palamente a yang letsholong ka ntle. Ke rona ba tsebang hore ho jwang boemong ba bomasepala. Ke rata o ba hlalosetse hore ho bohlokwa ho nka nako re lokisa taba ena hore re se qetelle re etsa diphoso tse ngata.
An HON MEMBER: Well said!
The ACTING MINISTER FOR PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I also want to correct the member. As members of the Cabinet, we do not develop policies as individual Ministers. There shouldn't suddenly be a crisis because you saw the Minister here earlier. It always happens when we are abroad - colleagues stand in for us. There is no crisis. The member wants to create a crisis that is not there. The policy on the Public Service is constantly discussed and debated in the ruling party. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The ACTING MINISTER FOR PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Standing here as a member of the ruling party and a senior member of Cabinet, I understand why there is a need for a single Public Service. I agree with the last speaker that the idea is to have a seamless Public Service. That is what I said in the response that has been produced. I am sitting next to the Deputy Minister and she is confirming what I am saying, so I don't know what the drama is all about.
Sesotho:
Ke dumellana le wena Mme MaMoloi hore ke nnete hore ho bohlokwa ho ba le tshebeletso ya setjhaba e hokahaneng e le hore basebeletsi ba mmuso ba kgone ho qala makaleng a fatshe mme ba ye hodimo. Makala ao a sebedisane mmoho le tsebo e teng e be tsebo e akaretsang. Disebediswa tsa mmuso le tsona di sebediswa ka tsela e etsang hore ho be bonolo ho sebetsa mehatong e fapaneng ya mmuso. Ke a leboha.[Mahofi.]
QUESTION 96
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 36
QUESTION 136
Question 96:
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Speaker, training was provided to all councillors as part of the Salga Councillor Induction Programme during the financial year 2011-12. This included a full day dedicated to the Municipal Finance Management Act, Act 56 of 2003, and to financial management oversight. This was done to strengthen oversight of financial management. Training sessions for members of the municipal public accounts committees have been concluded and progress can be reported. We have a record of the completion of this training programme in the Eastern Cape, Gauteng, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Limpopo and Western Cape.
The Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is working closely with provincial treasurers and provincial departments responsible for local government to monitor the progress of municipalities in establishing internal audit units and their functionality. Furthermore, 200 learners will be trained through the Local Government Sector Education Training Authority, the LG Seta, in partnership with the SA Institute of Internal Auditors. Where evidence indicates that there are issues of inadequate communication between audit committees and mayors with respect to specific municipalities, this will be addressed accordingly.
The recent announcement of the establishment of the Municipal Information Systems Association, or Misa, will further enhance this initiative. This is because it provides for the arrangement of focused and dedicated training in particular, including training in financial management. We had no intention of tabling a separate report in addition to the report that the Auditor-General normally provides but, if needs be, we are readily available.
Government remains committed to the attainment of clean audits by 2014 and part of the pronouncement on the Budget Vote is to accelerate interventions aimed at improving good governance and sound financial management. Of course, we made statements when we tabled the Budget and we no intention of making another statement, unless there are calls that we should do so. If so, we will gladly do so.
Ms S C N SITHOLE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 36
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Ms S C N SITHOLE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I do not have a supplementary question, but I just want to thank the Minister for the response. I am encouraged by the fact that there is further training with the LG Seta, in conjunction with the SA Institute of Internal Auditors. I say this because when we looked at the capacity of local government during our visit to the North West, we discovered that there was great willingness on the part of the politicians who are councillors, the municipal managers and the staff but a great lack of understanding of fundamental, basic bookkeeping. There is a great need to actually encourage the councillors to question the activities of the administration.
Some local municipalities are so small that it is very difficult for them to actually institute their own audit committees. They share with other committees. So I would...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member, your time is up now. That is a comment and not a question, hon Minister.
Mr P F SMITH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 36
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mr P F SMITH: Minister, I presume you would agree with me that improving the financial management of municipalities is a key objective of this government and of the turnaround strategy of all municipalities. In that regard, improving the capability of councillors to exercise their oversight function is a central issue. My question to you is this: Firstly, are you, as the Minister, personally satisfied that what has been achieved to date since the establishment your municipal turnaround strategy is in fact satisfactory progress? If you are satisfied, on what basis are you satisfied? I see things going down a lot more than up.
Secondly, you did mention that you were actively monitoring the establishment of these audit committees but you did not tell us how many have been established. Would you please tell us how many have been established?
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, on whether I am satisfied or not, let me indicate that there is room for improvement, hon member. Financial management is key in the life of municipalities. Financial management is one of those areas where we can then be satisfied that if we perform well, we will be on course regarding issues of service delivery and governance. So, there is room for improvement. That is why we made the question of financial management one of the five strategic focus areas. We need to pool all resources to be able to deal with these issues. On those municipalities that may be wanting in terms of size and their state of viability, we have adopted a programme of inviting working municipalities to support each other. We have also created the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency to deal with questions of supporting these municipalities according to need.
On the question of whether I have statistics on how many audit committees have been set up, we will gladly provide the details. The focus of the question was not on the figures but more on the question of what mechanisms we have in place. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Mr J H STEENHUISEN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 36
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr J H STEENHUISEN: Madam Deputy Speaker, perhaps it will be cogent to start by congratulating the Minister on surviving yesterday's reshuffle and to say thank you to the Minister for the response. I think you would agree with me that we were very good, particularly in Cogta, at setting targets, creating bodies to oversee it and providing training. However, we are not very good at ensuring that the consequences of failure to achieve these targets are actually implemented. Perhaps the hon Minister would share with the House today, in very explicit terms, what the consequences would be for municipal leadership and staff, as well as for the department, department heads and the responsible programme managers if municipalities did not achieve their clean audits by 2014.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I fully agree with the hon member that the question of consequences in cases of noncompliance is something we should focus on, and we are taking that very seriously. That is why in our assistance programmes to municipalities we ensure that even when you come to a point where you sign a performance contract, it should not be just a kind of generalised statement. It must be based on what you seek to achieve. Of course there has to be consequences in cases where municipalities or individual workers within a municipality do not perform according to what is expected of them. We definitely need to be worried about that. We are saying the name of the game in co-operative governance is support, support and support. We shouldn't wait for a situation where failure affects us negatively. We should come in and provide the support. That is why we indicated that ours is, among other things, to narrow our focus to the objectives of the turnaround strategy and to achieve the objectives that we must achieve. It is exactly to address that. We believe that everyone will be on board. No one should be in a situation where they face sanctions. Thank you very much.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 36
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Minister, the concern that Cope has is that we hear of all the interventions and the training but we do not see the impact thereof locally. It is one year after the election and still today there are municipalities where we had protests in recent weeks - and I want to name some of them: They include, among others, Sol Plaatje and Colesberg in the Northern Cape. Why? Because it seems that the councillors do not understand that there is an end to a budget. There is an end to financial expenditure. They are voting excessive salaries for the municipal managers. Then we find, as the hon Deputy President stated, that some municipalities, like Mbhashe, do not have enough income to pay service providers, maintain infrastructure and provide services.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time is up without you having asked a question.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Is the Minister as concerned about that as we are?
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Government is as concerned as any citizen would be if things don't go well. Let me indicate that we should not be painting all municipalities with the same brush, as if one size fits all. There are municipalities who are struggling, like Fetakgomo Local Municipality in Limpopo, where councillors are doing their best. This is just one of the many I can mention - there are quite a number of them. Yes, of course, we are really concerned. That is why we are saying that local government is everybody's business. Let us all come in and be concerned but also do something to assist these municipalities.
QUESTION 123
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 37
QUESTION 96
Question 123:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION: Thank you Deputy Speaker, in April 2011 Cabinet gave a mandate to the Department for Performance Monitoring and Evaluation to regularly assess the quality of generic management practices in departments. The department has developed a methodology to assess the quality of management, in collaboration with the Offices of the Premiers, National Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration and in consultation with the Office of the Auditor-General and the Office of the Public Service Commission.
The methodology has been informed by similar management performance assessments carried out in other countries, such as Russia, the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, Kenya, Turkey and India. The methodology involves working with the senior management of national and provincial departments to carry out self-assessments, which are then moderated by subject-matter specialists and cross-referencing to data produced by bodies such as the Auditor-General, Public Service Commission, National Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration.
In the 2011-12 financial year, assessments were made of the quality of management practices in 103 national and provincial departments out of the 158. These assessments will be carried out annually. The aim of these assessments is to establish a baseline on the status of management practices, to implement improvement plans, where necessary, and to monitor improvement against the baseline.
As a department we are available to make more detailed presentations on this management performance monitoring results to parliamentary committees, as we have started to do with the Portfolio Committee on Public Administration. The results of the 2011-12 assessment have been submitted to Cabinet and we will make a statement after Cabinet has finalised the process.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 37
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I pressed the button. Mr Singh has been permitted to leave. I am asking this on his behalf. Minister, the question deals mainly with a tool that the Minister obtained from Cabinet to increase the focus on the capacity of departments to effectively convert inputs. I've listened to the methodology that you referred to. It shows that you have made a good study of it, and you referred to quality of management.
In the limited time that I have, I want to refer to one matter. It comes from the National Treasury Budget of 2012 estimates. On page 4 it is said that expenditure on consultants is expected to increase from R4,7 million in 2011-12 to R20 million in 2014-15. What I want to ask the hon Minister is this: When people are appointed to important positions, one can safely assume that that person is competent and has a talent to do the job - but then they appoint consultants. I remember, I think . . . [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time is up and you have not asked your question. [Interjections.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Really?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, really. You have gone 14 seconds over the time.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Thank you. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, I heard the question. A question about consultants comes later. I think we can respond to the point that is being made in the context of that question.
Mr J J MCGLUWA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 37
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Deputy Speaker, Hon Minister, yesterday hon Marius Swart emphasised that departments such as the South African PoliceService, Agriculture and Cogta have spent nearly 100% of their 2010-2011 budget allocations. Minister, our concern is that there is no correlation between spending and performance. Evidence of this is the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, which spent 97% of its allocation but achieved only 35% performance.
Has the Minister gone into the causes of these problems? Why is it that we have the capacity to spend the money but when it comes to performance, we witness dismal failure? The disjunction between capacity spending and performance means only one thing to us, and that is fruitless expenditure. My question to you, hon Minister, is this: Can you explain to us the disjunction between the percentage of budgets spent and performance?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, it's unfortunate that we don't have sufficient time to deal with the details of the questions that are being asked because although the questions seem to be related to the first one, they are not. The question dealt with the performance management tool that we have developed to assess departments. In the course of assessing departments, as we said, we are working jointly with the Office of the Auditor-General and the Public Service Commission. What we call a performance audit is part of the audit outcomes of the Auditor-General. We assess the performance of a department as an institution on an ongoing basis and identify the gaps that need to be corrected. The report that we are going to release deals specifically with those aspects. Once you improve at that level, you are likely to improve in the problem areas that have been identified by the Auditor-General. That is why we are working closely with the Auditor-General to ensure that the information we have, the standards we set and the methodology we use complement each other to address the problems that are being identified by other bodies involved.
I am prepared to come to the portfolio committees to discuss the details of this issue. We don't have sufficient time in the House because you will tell me soon that my time has expired.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 37
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Deputy Speaker and Minister, this is just a follow-up. Don't you think that much of what you are going to do and the systems that you are introducing already exist in the Department of Public Service and Administration? Some of those performance systems that measure how senior officials should perform and what should happen if they don't are already there.
I think you also use the measures you have talked about to assess the police as a department. I was wondering about the issue of the R35 million that was spent recently, at the end of the financial year, on the purchasing of cars. In terms of assessment and monitoring, would you have picked up that issue? Also, what is your view of that particular expenditure?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION: Firstly, I want to repeat that the question that was being asked related to management performance assessment tools specifically. That is the tool and the template we are using. We have developed it to assess the performance practices of departments with the intention of improving their capacity to respond to the challenges they are facing.
We have assessed 103 departments. That is not all of them - there are 158, both provincial and national. The results are out and they have gone through Cabinet. The results will be going out and we will meet the provinces that have participated in the exercise up to this point. So, that issue will be picked up. The process picks up management practices that are problematic and are not necessarily picked up by the Auditor-General or by other instruments.
As I said in my response, we are working jointly with the Auditor-General, Public Service Commission, Department for the Public Service and Administration and National Treasury. You need all those instruments resident in various intuitions to come up with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges faced by departments.
At a later stage in that process, as the system matures, we will be able to identify and pick up early warnings signs of problem areas. For example, if somebody does a purchase today, you cannot expect the system to pick it up tomorrow. It's a system that we are going to utilise as we proceed. Treasury can pick up problems because they have a system that tracks expenditure in departments. We utilise the Treasury system, Auditor-General system, Public Service Commission, Department for Co-operative Government and Traditional Affairs. In the next financial year, or towards the end of this year, we are beginning to move into local government specifically. This is because local government structures are different from provincial and national departments. They need their specific template to deal with the issues that are there. Once we have moved into that area, in a few years, we will be able to tell you at any given time what the state of affairs is, beyond the reports generated by other sources. We will be able to tell you what plans are in place to improve the situation.
We have graded departments into four categories. Category one, which is red, represents all thosethat are not compliant at all. In category two are the departments that are a little bit better in some respects but fall short in others. Then there is category three, up to category four. We do indicate what the issues are that we need to tackle. They are verified. We want proof or evidence to ensure that we write a report that is as accurate as possible. We involve the participants themselves. People are expected to be there and we moderate it externally.
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 37
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Deputy Speaker, I think the Minister did touch on the question I wanted to ask but maybe the Minister would like to amplify the matter. I agree with the Minister - he appeared before the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration and we are much clearer on the issues he is explaining. However, I would like to find out if the Minister would like to clarify to this House some of the improvements against the baseline as part of progress achieved thus far. He really has touched on most of them, but just to amplify because this is an important process.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, yes, as I said, we look at a range of management practices that have been agreed upon by all the transversal institutions - those that are supposed to provide services to departments. It is a template and was developed and tested in a pilot project that we ran the previous year. We are now rolling it out to the rest of the departments. The results, which we are going to produce and present to all portfolio committees, specifically the Portfolio Committee of Public Service and Administration, will tell you which management practices are lacking; in which departments; and what evidence we have to prove our opinion that this department is not performing properly.
That information is meant to assist the departments to improve on their particular issues. So, we will know that in this area, the department has not been doing well. When we do it the next time, we need to see improvement and along the way we are going to determine which areas need to be improved. The departments themselves are working very hard to try and pull out those issues. So, that report is not necessarily like the Auditor-general's report - sometimes we get it, but things just end there and then we start complaining about it. We need improvement all the time. We need to be able to say, "This issue has been dealt with; those have not been done." The management of all the departments and the provinces that have been dealt with are very keen to participate in the project. They are very keen to improve their plans and to identify the weaknesses themselves. They prefer that to having the weaknesses identified from outside. I think this is a project that is likely to succeed if it is carried out successfully.
QUESTION 118
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 38
QUESTION 123
Question 118:
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION): Deputy Speaker, the response is as follows: During the financial year 2009-10, the State Information Technology Agency, or Sita, reported irregular expenditure of approximately R214 million. Of this, the financial loss to Sita of an amount of R130 million had not been determined, due to the fact that a disciplinary hearing was in progress. The disciplinary hearing was concluded during the 2011-12 financial year and the responsible executive authority was subsequently dismissed.
Further, the matter was referred to SAPS. I have the case number here: Brooklyn CAS134/4/2011. So, SAPS and the Special Investigating Unit are investigating the possibility of criminal conduct, the outcome of which will form the basis of instituting a claim for the recovery of the financial loss suffered, if any.
Furthermore, as part of the investigation by SAPS, an amount of R18 million is currently being kept in the trust account of Sita lawyers, pending the SAPS investigation. This is because it is alleged, or rather suspected, that the contract in respect thereof may be the basis of criminal conduct.
Thirdly, in the financial year 2010-11 Sita reported, inter alia, irregular expenditure of more than R243 million, in respect of which there was no financial loss suffered. In this matter, further investigation has been conducted by Sita and a report will be provided to the portfolio committee once the case has been concluded.
Mr L Ramatlakane
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 38
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION)
Mr L Ramatlakane: Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for the detailed response. However, you have not answered two parts of the question. What is happening to the 32 cases that was discovered by the Sita forensic audit? Is any action being taken concerning those cases and what is the status?
Lastly, Minister, are you saying that, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act regarding irregular expenditure, you will wait to implement that law until after the police criminal cases have been concluded? This may take years, and the Financial Management Act is very specific about how to deal with officials who have utilised money inappropriately, in terms of call-back. Is that what I am hearing - you are going to wait for two or three years down the line before action is taken?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION): Deputy Speaker, my apology, hon Ramatlakane. The answer, which I did not read fully, states that in 2010 the Sita board decided to commission an investigation into a range of allegations of misconduct, some of which was reported as irregular expenditure. The service provider commenced with the investigation at the beginning of 2011 and the investigation of the 32 cases will be finalised this year. I was informed by the director-general that the Sita board will be sitting tomorrow and they will definitely consider the report on the 32 cases, because it has been completed. So, tomorrow they will be sitting to complete it.
It also transpired that some of the employees have since resigned, one would assume in anticipation of a negative outcome for them. Consequently, where there is evidence of criminal conduct, Sita has referred the matter to SAPS for further investigation or arrest.
Mr N D DU TOIT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 38
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION)
Mr N D DU TOIT: Deputy Speaker, as in the Sita case, there is irrefutable proof that financial mismanagement and maladministration are widespread in many departments and it seems there are no consequences for nonperformance. How will the hon Minister ensure that appropriate sanctions are implemented to put an end to this state of affairs and will the Minister insist that directors-general be held accountable by dismissing them and not by redeployment?
The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (for The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION): Deputy Speaker, there is a government performance management for senior managers, which is also applicable to Sita. So, one can safely assume that the tool that is being used across government also applies to Sita. So, if there are criminal activities, they will be dealt with in terms of the management tool that exists in the system. Sita is no exception to the rule - the Deputy Minister confirmed this when he said that Sita is subject to the tool that is being used in government generally for the management of public servants.
QUESTION 105
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 39
QUESTION 118
Question 105:
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Deputy Speaker, the response is that the Department for Public Service and Administration is in the process of taking the draft Public Service integrity management framework to Cabinet. The framework proposes to extend the disclosure of financial interests to all employees in the Public Service. The current regulatory framework prohibits any employee who has a conflict of interests from participating in any decision-making process.
Chapter 2, C4,6 of the Public Service Regulations stipulates that an employee will recuse herself or himself from any official action or decision-making process that may result in improper personal gain, and that this should be properly declared by the employee. This provision has crystallised into a practice in the Public Service. This practice is observed in any recruitment or procurement process. Failure to comply with this provision is deemed misconduct.
The Minister of Public Service and Administration does not have powers to regulate rules and codes of conduct for public office bearers.
Mr A R AINSLIE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 39
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr A R AINSLIE: Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for her response. In your reply, Minister, you made reference to regulations regarding public servants recusing themselves from matters that could lead to improper personal gain. In fact, too often in the Standing Committee on Public Accounts we encounter incidents where this has not been done. We find that public servants are not recusing themselves when they should do so.
My follow-up question is: What steps is the department taking to ensure that these regulations are indeed enforced, complied with and monitored and that appropriate disciplinary measures are taken against those who transgress them?
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Chairperson, the practice is that the Department for the Public Service and Administration makes policies and develops the framework in general. The departments must implement what comes from the DPSA. It is the departments, and not the Minister of Public Service, who have to ensure that there is compliance with regulations. The different Ministers in the departments have to ensure that this is being applied or followed through. They can't be sitting in all the tender boards or acquisition committees in all the different departments. It is the responsibility of departments to ensure that there is compliance.
Mr S J F MARAIS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 39
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr S J F MARAIS: Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, the National Planning Commission and the Public Service Commission have identified poor management, the erosion of accountability and authority structures, misaligned decision rights and corruption as reasons for the poor state of governance in government and most provinces. Will the Ministry take that undertaking further, to assure that no public servants and their families will do business with any government structure, similar to what was done in the Western Cape? [Applause.]
An HON MEMBER: Hear, hear!
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: I am sorry, Deputy Speaker, I missed the last part of what the member was saying. I am also trying to get the Deputy Minister to also ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, could you please repeat that part about the Western Cape? [Laughter.]
Mr S J F MARAIS: I will ask the question in a way that the Minister will understand. Will the Minister take the undertaking further to ensure that no public servant and their families will do business with any government structure, similar to what was done in the Western Cape?
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, no, it won't be informed by the Western Cape. It will be informed by what needs to happen in government. What he is saying is what needs to happen and is not necessarily being informed by the Western Cape. As I have already indicated, and as the Deputy Minister has already confirmed, if you look at the framework, it is meant exactly to make sure that ... [Interjections.] No, it is not going to be informed by the Western Cape, but by what needs to happen in government. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: The Public Service Regulations stipulate that an employee will recuse himself or herself from any official action or all decision-making processes that may result in improper personal gain. This should be declared by the employee. As I have already indicated, it has to be applied all over in government - not because the Western Cape has done it, but because it has to be done. I agree with you and you are right that it has to be done, but not because it is done in the Western Cape. [Interjections.]
Mr A WATSON: Madam Deputy Chairperson, that was not the question. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No dialogue please. Hon Killian - oh, were you pressing it for hon Ramatlakalane?
Mr A WATSON: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: With all due respect, the Minister did not answer the question. [Interjections.] It is a point of order. What do you think it is? [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: She did answer the question. [Interjections.] You might not be satisfied, hon member, but she did answer the question.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 39
The DEPUTY SPEAKER
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Deputy Speaker, I just want to say that according to the list the hon Ramatlakane was first, and I was supposed to be the next one to ask a question.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Kilian, do you want to speak? Do you want to ask a question?
Mrs J D KILIAN: Yes, but ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I pointed to you to ask a question. Do you want to ask it?
Mrs J D KILIAN: As long as I know that the hon Ramatlakane will then follow. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do you want to ask a question?
Mrs J D KILIAN: Yes, I do.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Then ask the question.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, the important fact that we as Cope want to raise is that we don't want to have this recusing of public officials during decision making. We want to see that there is a total barring of conducting business with the state if you are employed by the state. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Mrs J D KILIAN: We have seen the looting of the SABC exactly on account of this. Today I recuse myself from a decision and the hon so and so will look after my interests. Tomorrow the hon so and so will recuse himself and I will in turn look after his business interests. That is the practical reality; that is what is happening. That is how Public Service officials are looting the resources of the state. Will government commit itself to barring conducting of business between an employee of the state and the state itself? I am referring to all departments, all the way through. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The ACTING MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Deputy Speaker, understand that the guidelines on sanctions have been developed and will be applied across the state. Again, I would like to confirm what the Deputy Minister has said - that will apply exactly as we said. Those guidelines are there. What we might need to do is to check if they do indeed comply with all the requirements. They are there and will be applied throughout the system. Currently, they are only covering senior officials, but I was told that they were going to apply throughout the whole state.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is that a point of order, hon Pule?
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Deputy Speaker, yes, it is almost a question. I would like to check something with the hon member. She spoke about the looting that is happening at the SABC. I did not understand what she was talking about. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Maybe you must ask her outside this meeting. [Interjections.] Hon Schneemann, you are on the screen! Hon Hlengethwa!
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Deputy Speaker, can I please address you on a point of order?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order?
Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, the point of order is the supplementary questions. As Cope understands it, the Rules provide for members to be sequenced on the basis of when they press the to-talk-button. It happened now that there were two Cope members. I do not believe it is fair to discriminate against Cope. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Kilian, are you trying to chair this meeting for me? I am trying to be very nice today. You are trying to chair this meeting for me. What you are saying is not written anywhere. Hon Ramatlakane had his bite of the question that the Minister was asked. When parties are pressing the buttons, I need to make sure that I have a spread of all the parties. I'm sorry but if you want to chair this meeting, you will have to wait for another time - not when I am chairing it, please. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I don't think we can allow a situation where the presiding officer is accused of being discriminatory, because that will go against the essence of chairing. [Interjections.] The hon member should withdraw the word "discriminatory". She should withdraw it. [Interjections.]
Mr A WATSON: Hon Deputy Speaker, on the same point, the Chief Whip is not chairing the meeting, you are. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is not chairing the meeting; he is just making a point. [Interjections.] In fact, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.
NOTICES OF MOTION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
QUESTIONS
NOTICES OF MOTION
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House‑
(1) debates the increase in hate crimes against the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered community; and
(2) comes up with proactive solutions to increase acceptance and tolerance towards members of the LGBT community in South Africa.
Mr J SELFE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
Mr J SELFE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the special remission of sentences as a mechanism to alleviate overcrowding in prisons and the problems associated therewith.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr J SELFE
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the establishment of a state publishing enterprise.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Ms C C SEPTEMBER
Mrs J D KILIAN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the finding, by National Treasury, that the Limpopo provincial government condoned illegal procurement processes that led to massive corruption in five provincial government departments in that province.
Mr G R KRUMBOCK
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mrs J D KILIAN
Mr G R KRUMBOCK: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House
(1) debates the significantly uncompetitive nature of our ports of entry, including airport charges, compared to the rest of the world; and
(2) considers possible solutions thereto.
Ms A C MASISHI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr G R KRUMBOCK
Ms A C MASHISHI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates ensuring good governance in schools and ensuring that schools serve the communities in which they are situated.
Ms A Z NDLAZI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Ms A C MASHISHI
Ms A Z NDLAZI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates speeding up the pace of transformation in all elements of the value chain in the information and communications technology sector.
Mr G B D MCINTOSH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Ms A Z NDLAZI
Mr G B D MCINTOSH: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House
(1) debates the fact that South Africa has the highest number of so-called refugees in the world;
(2) further debates what can be done to address this unacceptable situation.
Mrs D R TSOTETSI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr G B D MCINTOSH
Mrs D R TSOTETSI: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates reaching consensus on how to deal with race, class and gender by reflecting on our developmental path and our socioeconomic system as a whole.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mrs D R TSOTETSI
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the increase in assault perpetrated by police officers in the last two months, as recorded by the Independent Police Investigative Directorate.
Mr S MOKGALAPA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House-
(1) debates the impact of poor workmanship in delivering quality housing; and
(2) comes up with solutions to improve the situation.
Mrs D F BOSHIGO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr S MOKGALAPA
Mrs D F BOSHIGO: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the centrality of constituency work in linking Parliament with the people.
Mr J VAN DER LINDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mrs D F BOSHIGO
Mr J VAN DER LINDE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House-
(1) debates the current application of the proactive land acquisition strategy; and
(2) comes up with recommendations to improve this strategy.
Mr K MARAIS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr J VAN DER LINDE
Mr K MARAIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That this House debates the findings and recommendations of the Public Service Commission's report on the performance of premiers and discrepancies in the performance of premiers in the different provinces.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr K MARAIS
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the leadership instability in the National Student Financial Aid Scheme Board.
Mr E NYEKEMBA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mr E NYEKEMBA: Hon Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the evolution of a value-centred society, as well as interfaith movements in South Africa.
Mr R N CEBEKHULU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 40
Mr E NYEKEMBA
Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the continuous cold-blooded murder of law-abiding citizens by criminals in our country.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 41
NOTICES OF MOTION
UN WORLD DAY TO COMBAT DESERTIFICATION AND DROUGHT
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that the United Nations World Day to combat Desertification and Drought is observed annually on 17 June;
(2) further notes that the theme for this year's observance is "Healthy soil sustains your life: Let's go land degradation neutral";
(3) acknowledges that the campaign aims to strengthen the visibility of the "dry lands" issue on the international environmental agenda and highlight the urgent need to curb the desertification process;
(4) further acknowledges that desertification, land degradation and drought dramatically affect the biodiversity resident in the soil and what we do to our soil determines the quality and quantity of the food we eat and how our ecosystems serve us; and
(5) calls on all stakeholders to join in action to combat desertification and drought, particularly in Africa.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 41
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UN WORLD REFUGEE DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1)notes that the UN World Refugee Day is observed on 20 June each year;
(2)further notes that the day was designated by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees in order to bring attention to the plight of approximately 40 million refugees around the world;
(3)honours the courage, strength and determination of women, men and children who are forced to flee their homes under threat of persecution, conflict and violence;
(4)believes that it is also a day to highlight the contributions of refugees in society; and
(5)calls upon government and civil society to highlight the plight of refugees and to advocate on their behalf.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 41
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
SUSPENSION OF RULE 251(3)(C)
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House suspends Rule 251(3)(c), which provides that a committee must in its report specify each amendment that was considered by it and, for a reason other than its being out of order, was rejected by it, in respect of the Preventionand Combating of Trafficking in PersonsBill [B7B – 2010].
Agreed to.
FIRST ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 42
MOTIONS_WITHOUT_NOTICE
PREVENTION AND COMBATING OF TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move:
That the report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
SECOND ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 42
FIRST ORDER
PREVENTION AND COMBATING OF TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and hon members. Trafficking in persons has been aptly described as modern-day slavery. It is a crime against humanity. Every year, thousands of men, women and children fall into the hands of traffickers through false pretences, abduction or other means for the sole purpose of exploitation in one way or another. Every country in the world is affected by trafficking, whether it is a country of origin, transit or destination for victims. Various factors contribute to the trafficking of persons. These include poverty, lack of equal opportunities and political instability.
Imagine what a big break it would be for a young girl of 17 years, who is an orphan from a rural town in the Eastern Cape with very little infrastructure and economic opportunities, to be offered a good job in Bloemfontein. Imagine the shock and trauma once she arrives there to find herself enslaved for commercial sexual exploitation. This girl was eventually found, beaten and unconscious, in the street. Yes, this girl survived, but sadly she passed away from Aids-related complications later. She was also three months pregnant at the time of her death.
A little girl from a township outside Port Elizabeth was 12 years old when she was trafficked to downtown Port Elizabeth. She was raped, groomed, given drugs and later sold and taken to another city. She was kept in a block of flats ruled by criminal gangs. She was forced to work alongside numerous other trafficked girls and for years she endured unimaginable hardship by being beaten, stabbed, raped and even shot at. Traumatised as she was, she had to witness abortions and had helped other girls give birth. She managed to escape and seek refuge in a safe house. However, her road to recovery will never be easy because of the severe trauma she had to endure for many years. Fortunately, her case led to the police uncovering a syndicate and numerous arrests have been made as a result.
These are but a few cases in an industry that is one of the most lucrative criminal business enterprises globally. Victims of trafficking are subjected to numerous ordeals, as is evident from the examples I have just given. It is therefore of the utmost importance to adopt legislation that addresses this crime against humanity comprehensively and meaningfully. Our international obligation as a signatory to the UN protocol is to prevent, suppress and punish trafficking in persons, especially women and children. The UN Convention against trans-national organised crime also requires us as Parliament to promote domestic legislation dealing with trafficking in persons.
In addition, the Bill of Rights in our Constitution enshrines the right to human dignity, equality, freedom and security of the person, which include the right not to be deprived of freedom arbitrarily or without just cause. It also includes the right not to be treated in a cruel, inhuman and degrading manner; the right not to be subjected to slavery, servitude or forced labour; and the right of our children to be protected from maltreatment, neglect, abuse and degradation.
As much as the prosecution of alleged traffickers is important, the protection of victims of trafficking is equally important. Therefore this Bill provides for the mandatory reporting of child victims of trafficking to the police for investigation. The protective measure of the Children's Act will apply to all child victims of trafficking. Other protective measures for victims of trafficking include the affirmation of the right to public health care services, as provided in Section 27 of our Constitution.
Another important provision in this Bill is the issue of payment of compensation to victims of trafficking by all the perpetrators. Many stories have been told of parents who are involved in trafficking of their own children, whether by deception - for example, where family members promise their children a better education in the city - or intentionally - for example, through prostitution. All these children must be protected.
In conclusion, I would like to thank all of those who have already done well in bringing perpetrators who had committed these heinous crimes to book within the parameters of current legislation. Let me thank the members of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development for their firm commitment in ensuring that the end product reflects the views and norms of the people that they represent as far as possible. [Applause.]
Mr L T LANDERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 43
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr L T LANDERS: Hon Chairperson, trafficking in humans is slavery. All the fundamental rights in our Constitution are often violated by trafficking in persons. South Africa is a signatory to the United Nation's Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children. This protocol is commonly referred to as the Palermo Protocol. Signatories to the Palermo Protocol are all required to pass domestic legislation that addresses human trafficking. The protocol is not only aimed at ensuring the prosecution of perpetrators but also requires our domestic legislation to provide for the prevention and combating of human trafficking, as well as the protection and provision of assistance and care to victims of trafficking.
South Africa has existing laws that can be, and have been, successfully used to prosecute perpetrators of trafficking. Some of these laws are abduction, kidnapping, common assault, assault with intent to cause grievous bodily harm, extortion, attempted murder and murder, all of which are common law offences. However, existing laws used to prosecute human trafficking are fragmented.
Importantly, the Bill before the House creates a specific offence of trafficking in persons. Essentially, the offence of trafficking in persons criminalises the conduct that includes the delivery, recruitment, transportation, harbouring, selling, exchanging, leasing and receiving of a person accompanied by force or coercion for the purposes of exploitation. Moreover, illegal adoption and forced marriage for the purpose of exploitation are also offences.
The Bill also criminalises debt bondage and the possession, destruction, confiscation, concealment of or tampering with official documents. Perpetrators of trafficking in persons often ensure that their victims have no official documentation, such as passports, identity documents and so on, as a way of keeping them trapped.
Other offences created by the Bill are the use of the services of trafficking victims, facilitation and, more importantly, the liability of carriers - that is aeroplanes, ships, long-distance tracks, etc - and permitting unauthorised persons to access victims or the disclosure of certain information relating to a victim of trafficking. For all these offences, penalties and sentences are provided in the Bill - and we say this for our judicial offices.
When we began our consideration of the Bill, we found a provision in it that catered for accredited nongovernmental organisations and civil society organisations by the Minister of Social Development, which would assist and care for victims of trafficking. Such organisations would automatically qualify for international donor funding, as well as resources from our government. However, we quickly realised that this had the potential of being abused.
Let me give you a scenario: Somebody boards a bus in Johannesburg and drives to the border post where people cross, as they normally do from day to day. They are encouraged to board the bus because they will receive free health care, housing, accommodation, grants, etc. Sixty of them board the bus and when this bus reaches Johannesburg, the person driving the bus then contacts the international donor organisations and says he or she needs funding for these 60 persons who have been trafficked. Hence, the committee has seen it fit to involve the provincial department of social development in the assessment of victims of trafficking, after which such victims must be referred to the relevant accredited organisation for the necessary assistance and care, including the protective custody of the police, if required, accommodation, counselling and health care.
It is important to note that trafficking in humans flourishes because it is extremely lucrative. It is estimated to be worth about US$32 billion per annum globally. Estimates of the number of trafficking victims vary. For example, the US government estimates that up to a million people are trafficked worldwide each year, of which approximately 80% are women and children, trafficked for the purpose of sexual exploitation. People are also trafficked for other reasons: forced labour, organ harvesting,etc. Consequently, among other sanctions, the Bill provides for a fine of up to R100 million and/or imprisonment, including life imprisonment.
The Bill also proposes compensation by a convicted person to victims of trafficking, as well as to the state. Payment by a convicted person or a carrier to the victim is made to the Criminal Assets Recovery Account, or Cara. More importantly, the law bypasses the route of our civil courts and grants courts jurisdiction to order a convicted perpetrator to pay compensation to his or her victims as part of the criminal trial. This has been described as revolutionary by some members of the portfolio committee.
The Bill also enables the forfeiture of profit used during or for the commission of a trafficking offence. It seeks to punish landlords who allow their buildings and property to be used for trafficking purposes. I say this again: trafficking in humans is slavery.
A significant feature of this legislation is its multisectoral nature. Entities and state departments that are key role players in this Bill are the Hawks, the SA Police Service, the National Prosecuting Authority, the departments of Home Affairs, Social Development, International Relations, and, of course, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.
The responsibility for the co-ordination of functions relating to the Bill's implementation lies with the Director-General of Justice who, after consultation with other stakeholders and agencies, must, among other things, develop a draft national policy framework; establish an integrated information system to monitor the situation regarding trafficking; develop and review guidelines on identifying victims of trafficking; and establish public awareness programmes. The challenge posed by this multisectoral approach is the ability of the departments and entities to work cohesively. We trust that all these role-players will succeed in doing so.
In conclusion, we wish to commend NGOs, faith-based organisations and religious organisations, as well as civil society organisations that played a crucial role in exposing perpetrators and victims of trafficking in South Africa. These organisations also play an important part in ensuring that the welfare of victims of trafficking is provided for. We commend them for their excellent work and trust that this Bill will enhance the work they are doing.
We also want to take this opportunity to place on record the portfolio committee's gratitude for the excellent work done by the drafters of this legislation, namely Ms Steyn and Mr Basit of the Ministry, as well as Ms Williams and Ms Steerman of the Chief State Law Adviser's office and the Law Commission respectively. We commend this Bill to this House and we ask that you approve it. [Applause.]
Mrs D A SCHAFER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 44
Mr L T LANDERS
Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Chairperson, one of the consequences of globalisation is the increasing ease with which organised crime can be committed, with the concomitant increase in the difficulty of detecting and prosecuting the perpetrators. This applies particularly in the case of human trafficking, which has been described as one of the most lucrative and fastest-growing businesses today and is considered to be the third-largest source of profits for organised crime, after drugs and guns.
One of the reasons for the increase is that it is very low risk, as many countries have no legislation to govern it and insufficient co-ordinated efforts between countries occurs. Such efforts are essential, given that human trafficking invariably involves more than one country.
The Bill we are passing today has certainly been a long time coming - far too long to our liking and to that of the United Nations, which had placed South Africa on its Tier 2 Watch list for years.
South Africa signed the Palermo Protocol in December 2000, but it was ratified only in February 2004, some three years and two months later. Another eight years later, we are standing here with a completed Bill. It is most unfortunate that the process has taken this long, but we are certainly very pleased that we now have a Bill for approval by this House today.
Deliberations on this Bill have been long and arduous, and we are satisfied that we have carefully considered all aspects surrounding this very difficult issue. We have deliberated long and hard as to how we balance the needs of genuine victims of trafficking with those of the state when it comes to the potential abuse of resources by unscrupulous people who may try to take advantage of the benefits and who are, in fact, not genuine victims.
One concern that arose during the course of the passage of this Bill is the lack of hard statistics regarding the true extent of this problem. At the time of the 2010 World Cup, there were deep concerns raised by nongovernmental organisations, both locally and internationally, with some citing that over 100 000 people would be trafficked in and to South Africa at the time. This, by all accounts, did not happen.
It is a real concern when there are no adequate statistics available from organisations who claim to be working to combat trafficking, yet these same organisations make ongoing claims about how huge the problem is. The government departments were not much better in this respect. The National Prosecuting Authority did give us some statistics, which they started collecting in 2010. According to these, 32 cases have been investigated or are under investigation over this period, with five having been finalised. This is certainly far less than we would have expected.
Although there are numerous laws in place to deal with trafficking, which have been used in prosecutions to date, this Bill creates the offence of trafficking in persons for the first time. The Bill deals comprehensively with all aspects of identifying and protecting victims of trafficking and prosecuting the perpetrators. One of the crucial issues tackled by this Bill is how to facilitate trafficked victims testifying for the state in criminal proceedings. To this end, we have provided that the Director-General of Home Affairs may, despite the provisions of the Immigration Act, issue a visitor's visa to a victim of trafficking who has been identified as such and who has agreed in writing to co-operate with the law-enforcement or prosecuting authorities in the investigation or prosecution of a case of trafficking and who is, according to the National Police Commissioner or National Director of Public Prosecutions, required for the purposes of an investigation or prosecution. In so doing, we hope to prevent victims from returning to their countries of origin, and then failing to return to South Africa to give evidence in the trial, thus allowing the perpetrators to go free.
Clause 29 of the Bill allows for the payment of compensation to victims of trafficking upon the conviction of an accused for the offence of trafficking. This can be made an order by the criminal court and can be executed in the same way as a civil judgment. This does not preclude the institution of a civil action if the actual amount of damages suffered by the victim is greater than the jurisdiction of the criminal court hearing the matter. This is a significant advantage for trafficked victims.
Another vital provision is that of making it a criminal offence to lease premises if the lessor knows or ought reasonably to know that the premises are being used for the facilitation or promotion of trafficking.
Another crucial provision is the one that compels an electronic communications service provider to report any electronic communications that advertise or broadcast information facilitating or promoting trafficking. If these service providers become aware of their service being used for these purposes, they are obliged to take immediate steps to preserve the evidence and prevent continued access to this material. They are exonerated from liability to their customers if they do this in good faith. We have also ensured that no electronic service provider is obliged to monitor the data or actively seek facts that indicate unlawful activity, thus preserving the right to privacy.
Last but not least, we have, in fact, included penalty provisions that the Court of Appeal will be happy to hear. These penalty provisions are a very good indication of the seriousness with which we regard this crime, with fines of up to R100 million or life imprisonment.
We are satisfied that in passing this Bill, South Africa will show that we are serious about human trafficking. We trust that with the co-operation of all the agencies involved, we will ensure that our country becomes one of those least attractive to perpetrators of this heinous crime against the most vulnerable in society. The DA will support this Bill. [Applause.]
Ms L H ADAMS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 44
Mrs D A SCHAFER
Ms L H ADAMS: Hon Chairperson, Cope supports the Prevention and Combating of Trafficking in Persons Bill. There is no doubt that the growth and development of any society is determined by the manner in which the law in that particular society interacts with its most vulnerable groups. In South Africa, the most vulnerable persons are women and children, specifically those from poor backgrounds. This Bill will allow us the means to respond in a more organised manner to the status of our women and children by providing the opportunity to set out the social services that victims will be entitled to and prescribe punishments for those guilty of trafficking offences.
The decision by this House to pass this Bill is thus a direct attack in the continued war against the abuse of women and children. To quote Lloyd deMause:
The evolution of culture is ultimately determined by the amount of love, understanding and freedom experienced by its children ... Every abandonment, every betrayal, every hateful act towards children returns tenfold a few decades later upon the historical stage, while every empathic act that helps a child become what he or she wants to become, every expression of love toward children heals society and moves it in unexpected, wondrous new directions.
It is true that trafficking in persons is regarded as an organised crime. This crime is also not easy to identify and to investigate because of its underground nature. There is a lot of deceit. Victims are reluctant to come forward because of intimidation and threats, due to the involvement of criminal groupings and syndicates. So, we cannot say that we know the extent of the trafficking problem within South Africa. This is due to the fact that we have been unable to record trafficking cases since many of these cases present themselves differently.
However, one aspect we all have to agree on is that over the years there has been a significant increase in child sexual exploitation cases. For this reason, the Trafficking in Persons Bill needs to be passed by this House more than ever.
Although trafficking most directly affects individual victims, it also has broader consequences. Trafficking directly affects the societies from which victims are removed, resulting in cultural and economic losses and threatening public health. The United Nations Development Programme estimated that trafficking generates at least US$7 billion a year and trafficking of persons has become the third-largest criminal business worldwide, after drugs and weapons.
We further urge this House to be cognisant of the fact that the passing of this Bill is only the beginning of a long journey in our war against the abuse of women and children.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you, hon member. Hon members, please lower your voices.
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 45
Ms L H ADAMS
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Mr Chairman, this is a Bill which we are all equally committed to because we are all equally committed to dealing with the scourge of trafficking. However, as is the case with all pieces of legislation, the devil is always in the details. In the process of the approval of this Bill, we had to deal with a number of possible devils in the drafting. We did so with an admirable bipartisan approach and I think we are all equally proud of what has come out, warts and all.
It will be necessary to look at the implementation of this Bill to make sure that it will not be abused because the possibility for abuse exists. We identified these possibilities early in the process, as the hon Landers pointed out. We are trying to address them and we need to see whether the way in which we addressed them is going to be effective or whether this Bill is going to be abused in the same way as the refugee legislation was abused by people who were not entitled to its protection.
This is because this Bill extends vast benefits to victims and this could be taken advantage of by people who are not victims and could lead to the development of some sort of cottage industry of nongovernment organisations ostensibly out there to assist victims but in fact dealing with people who are not entitled to the benefits of this Bill.
The problem is compounded by the question of what constitutes a victim of this crime. Despite circumstances that are often as flagrantly obvious as the cases that the Minister pointed out, there are also other sets of circumstances and they are more subtle. They relate to the psychology of the actions performed and the specific conditions of the persons. These are matters that are often beyond the possibility of the state to ascertain.
We are setting up an extraordinary administrative structure to deal with this crime. As the hon Schäfer has pointed out, we do so without a clear understanding of the statistics on how widespread this crime is. We are doing so ahead of many other crimes, such as corruption, murder, rape and the looting of state assets. So, this is a type of crime that is in a position of privilege and, we hope, this privilege will be extended to other crimes of a similar nature as well as others. We will be supporting the Bill.
Ms S C N SITHOLE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 45
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
Ms S C N SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members of this august House, comrades and friends, I thank the ANC for allowing me to speak in this Parliament. I do so feeling very emotional because I know that many comrades paid a heavy price for us to be able to stand here today. It is necessary that we should not forget where we come from because it will help us to be focused on our work and to ensure that we protect the gains of the struggle of the congress movement.
The ANC supports this Bill. The ANC, as the vanguard of the rights of the people, has pronounced on human rights long before the United Nations did in the Africans' Claims in the late 1920s. As the ANC, we find it necessary to protect our own citizens and, of course, those who find themselves in our country from the demon and peril caused by those who like to steal human beings for enslaving them in various kinds of evil practices, including hard, unpaid and forced labour and, sometimes, making them sex slaves.
This often happens to the poorest of the poor and to women and children in poorer townships and rural communities. Our country has an obligation concerning the trafficking in persons in terms of international agreements.
This Bill creates the offence of trafficking in persons and other offences associated with trafficking in persons. It will provide for penalties that may be imposed in respect of such offences. It will also provide for measures to protect and assist victims. It will also provide for the co-ordinated implementation, application and administration of the Act and help prevent these nasty activities within and across the borders of the Republic of South Africa.
The Constitution of our land enshrines the right to human dignity and the right to freedom and security of persons. The ANC, as the caring movement governing this country, cannot stand by and allow its citizens to be treated in a cruel, inhuman and degrading way.
Our children have a right to be protected from malpractice, neglect, abuse and degradation. The ANC, that old, caring organisation, will continue to look for means and laws to protect its citizens. Viva, ANC, viva! [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 46
Ms S C N SITHOLE:
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, on 1 December 1834, church bells rang out and bonfires lit up on the slopes of Table Mountain and Signal Hill, announcing Emancipation Day. When you come into Parliament at the visitors' section, you can read the story of one of the slaves who was emancipated on that day. She was a young woman named Lydia. On her back, she carried the scars of her master's sjambok. Every year on 1 December, she held a service to commemorate the abolition of slavery.
The tree where slaves were sold is just outside Parliament, as is the Slave Lodge. It was hoped then that slavery would be ended on Emancipation Day. How very disappointed would Lydia, other former slaves and the great antislavery campaigner William Wilberforce be that, some 180 years later, we have more people enslaved than in their time. This is indeed a very sad and disgraceful state of affairs, as was highlighted by the tragic incidents related by the Minister.
While there is very little empirical data about the extent of the problem in South Africa, the ACDP believes that it is in fact far more widespread than we know. One report stated: "Both anecdotal data and limited quantitative data obtained reveal a portrait of trafficking that warrants intervention on all fronts."
While MPs may be sceptical about the extent of the problem, the fact remains that even one person illegally trafficked is one person too many. The end aim of this Bill is therefore to provide standalone legislation that addresses all forms of trafficking comprehensively and effectively. It needs to ensure that victims of trafficking are cared for in a humane and compassionate manner. We must also ensure that the offense of trafficking is dealt with severely and the Bill provides, in certain cases, for life imprisonment.
In view of the untold misery and suffering traffickers inflict upon innocent women, children and even men, we as parliamentarians demand nothing less than life imprisonment for certain of these offences.
In conclusion, William Wilberforce said:
Never, never will we desist till we have wiped away this scandal [...] released ourselves from the load of guilt under which we at present labour and extinguished every trace of this bloody traffic.
We in this Parliament can do no less than emulate those noble sentiments. The battle against human trafficking begins in earnest today with the passing of this Bill. The ACDP supports this Bill enthusiastically. [Applause.]
Mr J H JEFFERY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 46
Mr S N SWART
Mr J H JEFFERY: Chairperson, I rise at the end of this debate in support of the Bill. It has definitely been in this House for a long time –in fact, I think it is the second oldest bill in the NA at the moment. It was introduced shortly before the World Cup in 2010. There was some pressure on the committee to rush it through, but the committee felt that given the complexity of the whole issue – in terms of the crimes, the issue of support and the fact that a number of departments were involved - it was better to take time.
Another point that needs to be made is that there are existing laws that make trafficking, or certain parts of trafficking, illegal. In this way, the Sexual Offences Act makes trafficking for sexual purposes illegal and criminal; the Children's Act makes trafficking children for whatever reason a crime; and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act restricts the ability to force people to work for nothing. So, there were existing laws.
The committee has spent an enormous amount of time on this Bill. So, even though it has been with us for some time, we have spent many hours and gone through numerous drafts of the Bill. As some of my colleagues have said, we have looked particularly at widening the scope of crimes relating to trafficking, putting them together in one comprehensive list. In that regard we worked with the National Prosecuting Authority and the South African Police Service.
We have also looked at the issue of tightening the provisions relating to the care and treatment of victims. One of the members on this side, the hon MacIntosh, raised the problem of the vast number of refugees in South Africa in a motion. We did not want a situation where people could try and access benefits in terms of this Act by claiming that they had been trafficked without the necessary safeguards. That was one of the areas we looked at.
We also looked at the issue of co-operation between the different departments because, from our experience with the Child Justice Act, that is often quite a difficult point.
One of our problems, which some of the speakers alluded to, is that we do not have any accurate statistics relating to trafficking. You really need to know the extent of the problem before working out how much resources need to be put into it, particularly when trafficking is dealt with by the NPA and the police together with other major crimes, such as sexual offences and children in trouble with the law. That was a major problem. One of the things that the Bill provides for is mechanisms for reporting. Hopefully the problem of statistics and knowing the extent of the problem is something that will be dealt with. It should not continue to occur.
As some of my colleagues have said, one of the crucial issues is the issue of the implementation of the Bill. It will be important for this House, the justice committee and, in fact, for other committees because this Bill involves the departments of Justice, Police, - in fact the Police Portfolio committee in the last Parliament went on a study trip to Australia, to go and look at the issue. This Bill involves departments of Justice, Police, Social Development and Home Affairs so it will be important for this House to monitor the implementation of the Bill.
What we have done – and this was a new innovation, which we did close to the end – is to ensure that different sections of the Bill can be implemented at different times. The intention would be that the sections relating to criminal law - the crimes of trafficking - can be implemented almost immediately. Sections that may take longer, such as developing regulations for accredited organisations, can take longer but as soon as this Bill is passed by both Houses, the criminal components can come into effect to close the loopholes that are in the law, particularly relating to labour trafficking, people supporting trafficking, renting out property that is used for trafficking and so on.
In closing, I think it is very important and it has been very good –again, some of my colleagues have alluded to this - that this was a multiparty effort. The justice committee as a whole was able to come together, thrash out these issues and come up with a product that we expect the whole House will support. [Applause.]
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 46
Mr J H JEFFERY
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE wEZOBULUNGISWA NOKUTHUTHUKISWA KOMTHETHOSISEKELO: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, okwami wukuthi elethu, makube njalo! Ngibonga wonke amabandla ezombusazwe kuleli Phalamende ngokweseka lo Mthethosivivinywa obaluleke kakhulu ukuze zonke lezi zigebengu eziganga ngezwe lethu ziyobhadla ejele. Ngiyabonga.
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
THIRD ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 47
SECOND ORDER
SHERIFFS AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
FOURTH ORDER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 13 June 2012 Take: 47
THIRD ORDER
JUDICIAL MATTERS AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, the Special Investigation Unit has had difficulties assisting state institutions in the recovery of losses as a result of serious malpractice and maladministration.
Until now, the SIU has made use of what is called a mixed funding model to fund its investigations. It is allocated funds by way of direct transfer from the Justice and Constitutional Development Vote. In addition, the SIU has, in the past, subsidised its budget by entering into what is called service level agreements with some state institutions. This allows it to charge fees and recover its expenses from the relevant institution.
Recently, however, the validity of these service level agreements was brought into question. Consequently, the SIU has not been able to enter into any new service level agreements. This has seriously affected the SIU's operational budget.
Although the SIU has received a substantial additional allocation in 2011-12, and although its allocation for the current year has increased significantly, these measures were specifically intended to address the funding shortfall. The expectation is that, when the necessary legislative amendments are effected, the SIU will once more supplement its resources by charging for its services.
The proposed amendments in this Bill therefore empower the SIU to charge fees from a state institution to defray operational costs relating to an investigation.
It needs to be borne in mind that certain institutions may be unable to afford the SIU's fees and obligating them to do so may have adverse consequences for service delivery. Here we are thinking in terms of municipalities in the deep rural areas that have a very low rates base.
To address this, the committee has introduced a new procedure, which permits affected institutions to apply to National Treasury or to the relevant provincial treasury for exemption from paying the fees charged or to be recovered.
Once more, we recommend this Bill to this House and we ask that it be approved.
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
The House adjourned at 18:06.