Hansard: Approppriation Bill: Debate on Vote 9 - GCIS
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 09 May 2012
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
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THURSDAY, 10 MAY 2012
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEES – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
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Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 16:56.
Mrs N J Ngele, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr O C CHABANE):
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APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 9 – Government Communication and Information System:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY (Mr O C CHABANE): Hon Chairperson, chairperson of the portfolio committee, Deputy Minister , Bapela, hon members, honoured guests, comrades and friends, members of Government Communication and Information System , GCIS, staff and management, members of the media present, ladies and gentlemen, I feel privileged to present the 2012-13 Government Communication and Information System Budget Vote in this House today.
Today marks a very special anniversary in our country's history, because it was on this day in 1994 that we witnessed the inauguration of our first democratically elected President, Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. 10 May 1994 was also the first time black, green, gold, red, white and blue were united in a single banner to create one the world's most colourful flag.
On that day the nation's focus and that of the world was on the Union Buildings where Madiba took a historic oath that marked the advent of democracy in our country. I am sure that the House and the nation will join me in recognising this historic day today.
In his state of the nation address this year President Zuma said and I quote:
The work done last year indicates that if we continue to grow reasonably well, we will begin to write a new story about South Africa - the story of how working together we drove back unemployment and reduced economic inequality and poverty.
The work to which the President referred to three months ago is an ongoing accumulation of the daily deeds and the realisation of the actual reality for which President Mandela called for 18 years ago. President Zuma's new story is the underlying reality of how our country is changing and in the context of this Budget Vote; it is also about government's effective narration of this changing and changed reality.
In our fight against the triple challenges namely, unemployment, poverty and inequality it is as important for government to create tangible and practical opportunities for a better life as it is to let people know in the first place, that these opportunities exist. Every house we build, every identity document we issue, every social grant we avail to someone in need and every business opportunity we create would be meaningless if no one knew these opportunities existed or how they could access them.
GCIS will take political principals and key figures in our administration into people's homes, corporate boardrooms and into other stakeholder forums as part of ensuring that government presents its programmes directly to interest groups and that government gets to hear directly from such interested parties.
Over the coming years GCIS will in line with its vision of being the pulse of communication and excellence in government, energise the nation around our development goals and help to maintain the confidence of investors and partners both locally and internationally.
GCIS executes its mandate in at least two ways, the first being in partnership with communicators across all spheres of government and in entities of government. Secondly, GCIS itself commands a range of communication platforms and a stakeholder management system which feed off and feed into the communication programmes of departments. This approach was implemented with great energy and innovation in 2011-12, a year that the organisation spent 95% of its allocated budget.
To guide communication in government GCIS developed the national communication strategy which shaped the various communication activities of departments, provinces and entities setting the basis for clarity, coherence and cohesion in government communication.
GCIS's effectively co-ordinated a multidisciplinary implementation of the department's communication services for campaigns prioritised in the 2011-12 government communication programme. Some of the campaigns GCIS supported and played a key role in co-ordinating include the launch of the Matola Memorial Monument built in Mozambique; the COP17/CMP7 United Nations Climate Change Conference; World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland; Water Week; and 16 Days of Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children
GCIS enhanced the reach and frequency of the Vuk'uzenzele publication by successfully converting this important information source from a two-monthly magazine into a monthly, free newspaper, with a circulation of 1,7 million per edition. More than 50 million copies have been published in all official languages, including Braille. Vuk'uzenzele is the only newspaper in the country that is published in Braille.
This was the year in which GCIS took to another level the co-ordination of media bulk-buying as recommended by the task group on communications in its recommendation in 1996. This is to ensure that we centralise and in source government procurement of advertising and thus cutting out the middleman to maximise government's buying power.
GCIS has also, in partnership with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs trained 655 officials including mayors and their executive teams in 108 municipalities throughout the country. Media management training was also provided to 15 heads of missions deployed to various countries.
GCIS's primary role is to provide strategic leadership in government communication and co-ordinate a government communication system that ensures that the public is informed about government's policies, plans and programmes. In 2012-13 GCIS will focus its resources to service, its corporate strategy and facilitate the implementation of the national communication strategy.
The national strategy remains focused on the five key priorities of government, with an added dimension being that of popularising the extensive public infrastructure development campaign launched by President Zuma this year.
GCIS has set itself a number of key strategic objectives that address internal efficiencies and external impact. One objective is that of building people products and processes and a reliable knowledge base to ensure an effective government communication system. This entails strategic leadership and support in government communication; media monitoring, research surveys and analysis; and content development and the creation of platforms to grow the voice of government.
GCIS is also committed to maintaining a well functioning communication system that proactively informs and engages various publics. Features of this approach include adherence to government communication standards; alignment of messages across the spheres of government; building an empowered citizenry through sustained communication of government policies, plans and programmes; and building and maintaining stakeholder partnerships.
As I have previously indicated, GCIS will also entrench an efficient and effective production and advertising agency for government, focused on cost-effectiveness and impact of messaging. Internally, GCIS will maintain responsive, cost-effective, compliant and business-focused corporate services with emphasis on attracting and retaining highly skilled human capital; efficient and effective information technology infrastructure and systems; effective strategic management processes and procedures; professional internal audit services; and proactive, responsive, compliant and cost effective finance, supply chain & facilities management.
Finally, GCIS will work with departments, clusters and entities to ensure that government's image and that of the State at large is projected, defended and maintained. This will involve managing government's corporate identity; continuous measurement of public perception; professionalising the government communication system; and popularising the programme of the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission.
Chairperson, in the coming year GCIS's key deliverables include the following: we will launch a project focusing on 20 years of democracy, with a view to mobilise government and the nation at large in the build-up to the marking in 2014 of two decades of democracy; more than 20,4 million copies of Vuk'uzenzele will be produced with over 5 000 copies available to Braille users; 120 000 copies of public sector manager magazine will be producedThis will be supplemented quarterly by GovComms, a newsletter style publication focused on communication practices across government.
Media assessment reports will be produced daily to inform the work and agility of our rapid response. In addition, at least reports analysing the communication environment as it relates to clusters will be produced. 40 000 copies of the South Africa Yearbook, 20 000 Yearbook Pocket Guides and 4 000 DVD versions will be made available to public libraries, schools and other institutions.
Around 3 000 development communication projects aligned to the communication programme of government will be implemented on various platforms such as community media, seminars, workshops, public participation programmes, door-to-door visits and Thusong-driven campaigns.
A special focus will be on the achievements of local government campaign, a planned community radio approach where elected local officials will be able to provide feedback on achievements in their municipal turnaround strategies.
GCIS will digitise approximately 3 000 hours' worth of video footage of government recorded over the years. This footage is used to develop GCIS products and to share with public and private broadcasters. Based on baselines in recent years, this agency will produce approximately 2 000 communication products in partnership with various departments and entities of government.
GCIS will lay the foundations for a recognised, credit-bearing qualification in communications in the public sector by convening an academic symposium with at least 10 geographically representative academic institutions in partnership with Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama.
Chairperson, GCIS will make one of its most important investments in 2012-13 with new headquarters in Hatfield, Pretoria, which will be ready for occupation a year from now. During the coming year, R50 million will be spent on this project which will keep GCIS close to clients and stakeholders while providing staff with a much needed upgrade in facilities that are vital for morale and creative energy.
GCIS will maintain oversight of the Media Development and Diversity Agency and ensure that the transfer payments made to this agency enables it to carry out operations in promoting local media development and diversity.
Chairperson, over the coming Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period the expenditure is expected to increase to R417 million at an average annual rate of 4,6% which is slightly below the projected rate of inflation. The increase is on compensation of employees which is projected to grow to R195,8 million over the medium-term at an average annual rate of 5,5% in line with inflationary projections.
The R19,5 million increase in expenditure on goods and services over the medium-term relates to the increased print run and production costs of Vuk'uzenzele newspaper as well as lease payments in respect of a new head office.
GCIS has taken a strategic decision to support the President and Deputy President with video and photography during their international engagements. This has led to an increase in the budget of over the medium-term baseline.
Over the medium-term the department receives additional allocations for improved conditions of service R3,5 million, R3,8 million and R4,3 million per annum respectively and office accommodation and costs related to the new head office building to the tune of R50 million.
The GCIS Budget for 2012-13 is R429 million with Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, receiving an allocation of R20 million. This budget is there to ensure that citizens are fully informed about government's programme and how it can change their lives and that they have opportunities to interact with government. This is a small price that generates huge expectations among the people of our country and its leadership.
Chairperson, another component of our work is Brand South Africa. Brand South Africa's mission is to build and manage South Africa's nation brand reputation to enable it to strengthen the country's global competitiveness. During the year under review Brand South Africa succeeded in doing the following.
It was in the same year that we formally changed the name of the International Marketing Council to Brand South Africa to keep it in line with its mandate. It was also in the same year after intense consultation and research we have managed to secure a new pay-off line accepted and approved by all key stakeholders in our country, that is inspiring new ways. This is derived from the brand essence inspiring new and different ways. This is to ensure that we remain relevant and competitive in this dynamic global environment.
This new pay off line carries a message of who we are and what we stand for. (Exclude)
We have also noted improvements in the perception scores about our country based on the following Brand South Africa pillars, namely diversity, ubuntu, possibility, sustainability and innovation. The launch of domestic campaign called, Play Your Part has been a success. Play Your Part is a campaign responsible for domestic mobilisation of South Africans encouraging them to play their part in creating a positive social change. Amongst other achievements are the highlights for the year a 13 part TV series on SABC1 during the period from October until December 2011 showcasing ordinary South Africans performing extraordinary things; launch of the Quality Learning and Teaching Campaign in collaboration with the Department of Basic Education with the aim of identifying underperforming schools and getting teachers and learners to play their part to improve the school performance; and encouraging business to play their part, where Nestle adopted a school in Escourt.
The focus internationally is to positively influence and shape perceptions about South Africa amongst target audience. Being a member of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, Brics, provides a platform to engage and influence and this is evident in the World Economic Forum in Davos conference that took place in January 2012 where South Africa was profiled as a competitive investment destination. Overall the reputation scores have improved even in the African continent.
Chairperson, the Brand South Africa vote has been moved from GCIS to the Presidency with effect from 1 April 2012. The Presidency will present its Budget Vote on 30 May 2012 where we will elaborate extensively on the work of this important entity.
In conclusion, Chairperson, I would like to use this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister, Bapela for his impactful leadership in the strategic guidance to GCIS and other entities in the department.
I would also like to thank the portfolio committee for its vigilance and its support for the work of this important institution of government. I would also like to thank the chief executive officer, CEO, and his team, management and staff of the GCIS for the sterling work performed in a very dynamic, challenging and at times under-resourced environment.
Eight days from now, on the 18th of May, we will mark 14 years since GCIS was formally launched and we can look back with pride on the achievements of this department.
I commend this budget to this House in the interest of telling the new story of South Africa and to fulfil what President Zuma said in his state of the nation address and I quote:
The defining feature of this administration will be that it knows where the people live, understands their needs and responds faster and government must work faster, harder and smarter.
I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause]
Mr S E KHOLWANE / GC / END OF TAKE
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THE MINISTER IN THE PRECIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENY
Mr S E KHOLWANE: Hon Chairperson, hon members, hon members of Cabinet present here, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, members of the Portfolio Committee on Communications, the Chief Executive Officer, CEO, of Government Communications and Information System, GCIS, Mr Manyi, I nearly said hon Manyi, the CEO OF Media Development and Diversity Agency ,MDDA, Mr Mtimde, members and distinguished guests. It my pleasure, privilege again and honour to introduce this Budget Vote debates of GCIS and be part of Brand South Africa on behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Communications.
After the historic election of the first democratically elected government of South Africa on 27 April 1994, it was immediately clear that the new Government's focus was people-centred and that communication was regarded as a critical responsibility.
In his first address to a joint sitting of Parliament on 24 May 1994, President Mandela emphasised that his Government's commitment would be as follows:
My government's commitment to create a people-centred society of liberty binds us to the pursuit of the goals of freedom from want, freedom from hunger, freedom from deprivation, freedom from ignorance, freedom from suppression and freedom from fear.
These freedoms are fundamental to the guarantee of human dignity. They will therefore constitute part of the centrepiece of what this Government will seek to achieve, the focal point on which our attention will be continuously focused. The things we have said constitute the true meaning, the justification and the purpose of the Reconstruction and Development, RD, without which it would lose all legitimacy.
In addition to that during the 1995 Budget Vote speech on the then South African Communication Service, former Deputy President Thabo Mbeki echoed this sentiment:
The government is committed to the view that as part of the building of a people centred society the people has the right to be informed about the government's policies, programmes and services. It government therefore also has an inescapable responsibility to ensure that it keeps the people informed on a continuous basis, so that they will be able to intervene in an informed and purposeful manner where their future is at stake
Hon Chairperson, GCIS is part of our democracy in developing an informed citizenry. As such an effective government communication system which will be able to perform three basic things, that is; to informing the citizens, advocating or persuading for policies and reforms, and lastly to engage the citizens.
The ability by government to speak with citizens must therefore be careful with the willingness to listen to them, incorporate their needs and preferences into the policy processes and engage on local patterns of influence trusted sources of information. When we have achieved the above only then we can say we have an effective government communication system.
In addition to this public engagement model, one must be cognisant of the global digital changes that have revolution government communication. By 2001, according to the United Nation's Report it reflected that 169 of its 190 member countries had a government website presence, 84 countries had a national government website, 36 countries featured single entry portals, and 17 governments offered online transactions capacity.
By 2002, nations ranked highest for the extent of their E-Government programmes were: Taiwan, South Korea and the others. Accordingly, in the South African context, the Constitution guarantees the freedom of expression. Internationally, Article 19 of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that:
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive, and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Honourable Chairperson, I believe that GCIS has done exceptionally well in this regard, in particular by digitizing our government systems and ensuring that information is up-to-date and readily available for our citizens.
Media diversity in any country is regarded as a measure of the depth of its democracy. Every citizen should have access to a range of media services, South Africa, I am definitely sure that under your leadership hon Minister, is on the way towards achieving this mission. In the new era of recognition and legitimacy, community media is increasingly seen as a small enterprise with a responsibility to survive and sustain high quality community services.
Honourable Minister, I am glad to say amongst other things President Jacob Zuma during opening of the State of the Nation Address, he raised the issue that we need to create employment, accordingly to the media programme of GCIS:
There are young, energetic and passionate reporters and producers in both community print and radio, who can make a valuable contribution in the strengthening of society through investigating and reflecting the concerns of ordinary people, holding local government accountable, disseminating information and promotion community coherenceand social capital.In this respect, the importance of community media cannot go unnoticed.
To this effect, I note the coming of MDDA and Sanlam Local Media Awards which will take place on 18 May 2012 in Durban, which will be showcasing the importance of building job creation and making sure that young people are participating on the same time creating the many jobs which are needed.
In the wise words of our former President, Nelson Mandela said: "If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language then that goes to his heart".
We have noted that on the 2007 to 2008 and, 2010 to 2011 organizational review which identified a number of challenges in the government communications environment, which among other things we have noted as GCIS, is that the department lacked the authority in providing leadership to government communications; and shortage of communication skills.
To this end, we request you hon Minister to ensure a speedily finalisation and the imminent implementation of a qualification course in government communications. The flow of information is important for the development of communities and the media facilitates to this end. Without a wide array of information, people's opinions and views would be limited and their impressions and conclusions of the world around them will be stunned.
The Committee has further noted the community media's frustration in relation to the following issues; preferential government advertising, which prioritise the mainstream through the media, the use of advertising labour brokers and late payment of accounts by advertisers including government departments.
These challenges that are raised above, adversely affect the business sustainability. They lack adequate risk management systems in the community media, and has created a loop-hole for self-centred and unscrupulous people who disguise as media advertising brokers. To this end we support the establishment of the centralized online booking system by MDDA.
Hon Minister you have already spoken about the decision or resolution of Cabinet of bulk buying, in that regard we urge government to take more proactive role in ensuring that a margin of government department and entities and advertising spent goes towards community media for long term sustainability.Former editor of The London Sunday Time, Harold Evans, once said: "Credibility is good business; the challenge is not to stay in business, it is to stay in journalism.
South Africa media found themselves operating under increasingly difficult conditions in the 1990s, with an explosion of the new media products and the entry of global media companies in the local market. Although many media companies have posted profits in the last few years, publications face stiff competition, not just for the readers, but also for advertising which provides commercial media with the greater part of their revenue.
To maintain their profitability, many publications have developed a range of strategies to attract advertising. In particular, these strategies include developing the kind of content that advertisers desire most, the kind of content that creates a buying mood for their products.
Whilst their have certainly been commentators who have argued the case that there is nothing wrong with the print media using their products to generate as much profit as possible. Each print organisation is a business, after all, seeking to generate value and growth for shareholder and sustainability and income for employees.
What could be wrong with this argument is that the blurring of the editorial content. Advertising copy has a number of profound negative consequences, and these range from the gradual erosion of public trust in the media and the poisoning of the public discourse, to the creation of impediments and to the consolidation of our new democracy.
Apart from these social ills, the growing practise of linking content to advertising in ways that are obscured from the reader can, if left unchecked, have commercial implications, damaging the credibility of titles and therefore affecting their profitability in long-term financial health.
The Press Code of Professional Practices, policed by the Press Ombudsman of South Africa, POSA, is the principal mechanism for the self regulation of the print media sector currently as we speak. The press code demands truth, accuracy, and fairness from the media, together with a lack of distortion and misrepresentation. However the question which one needs to raise with the test by commercial or by the print media of maximising profit and making more money for advertising, we think that this noble principle gets compromised.
Parliament, having regard to the Comtask report of 1996, has recognised with discontent, the continued exclusion and marginalisation of disadvantaged communities and persons from access to the media and the media industry. Coupled with media transformation is the need for transformation within the advertising industry, it is therefore essential that the advertising industry must be re-evaluated in line with the social transformation agenda and principles of inclusivity.
We note with concern that there seems to be consistent confusion on the legitimate definition of what constitute community media. The engagement between MDDA and the advertising industry must be speed up to deal with this particular confusion. The contemporary research on the role and transformation of the media suggests that the aggressive pursuit of commercial gains by credible publications could be a short-term and dangerous state of affairs.
Having said that, Chairperson and hon Minister, I must congratulate the GCIS for taking the lead in ensuring effective government communication, developing media diversity and marketing South Africa under SA brand, and further thank the industry for robust debate on issues of media transformation. Hon Tsebe will elaborate on these matters.
The ANC remains committed to a media climate that is free from vested political and commercial interests. This has been and continues to be the guiding principle in our engagement inrespect of the ongoing discussion on media transformation and accountability. This principle will guide us when interacting with Press Freedom Commission's report.
Furthermore, the GCIS must continue in its efforts to adequately provide citizens with information on government programmes and activities. Disadvantaged communities and persons must have access to the media. Government must take an active step in supporting the community media segment, in particular through advertising, capacity building and timely payments of accounts. Hon Minister when we do oversight we are told that government departments do not pay within the 30 days, and this course challenges for these communities.
And lastly as the former President Mandela once said:" It always seems impossible until it is done".
We are convinced that media transformation in the public interest, not in the commercial interest is not an impossible dream, it can and will be done through our collective effort. I conclude with the words of the legendary football coach and motivational speaker who said: "Individual commitment to a group effort- that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work and a civilization work" Indeed together we can do more. The ANC support the Budget Vote of GCIS and Brand SA. Thank you.
Ms M R SHINN / E.K.S. / END OF TAKE
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Mr S E KHOLWANE
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Ms M R SHINN: Thank you Chairperson, hon colleagues, GCIS is empire building on steroids. And the taxpayer is going to have to pay close to half a billion rand this year for what promises to become an unwieldy propaganda octopus, fastening its suckers onto every sphere of government communications around the country. And with eyes everywhere, it will make sure every government representative and office sings from the same hymn sheet. Good luck with that.
With a whopping 17, 8% budget increase over last year's allocation, Treasury's handout to GCIS will also cover one of the highest staff bills I have seen – 43, 5% of the allocation will be spent on salaries.
When asked about this in its budget presentation to the portfolio committee the GCIS CEO was unapologetic. He replied that he had been unable to persuade Treasury to pay even more to, what he described, was the best creative and media talent money could buy. He wanted their salaries to be a reflection of their worth.
In fact, he told us that GCIS had requested a budget increase of 28, 7% above last year's, but the tight-fisted lot at Treasury declined. Good for them.
What arrogance is this, that when the taxpayer is overstretched to fund education, health care, home building, etc, etc, the nation's media team – in comfortable new offices, driving smart cars and hob nobbing with power – can command such a high salaries?
I will tell you who they are. These are government's front-line troops in the battle of illusions, of smoke and mirrors. These are the people who will tell poverty-stricken citizen, who step over rivers of sewerage each day, that they have never had it so good. That the muck on their streets and the failed health system is because apartheid structures and attitudes have not been properly dismantled, or some other lame excuse for the ANC's inability to get its hands dirty, work hard and make government work.
No amount of glossy magazines and full-page adverts in newspapers can paper over the cracks of service delivery failures where the ANC governs.
I acknowledge the many professionals in GCIS who work hard to publish valuable and credible information about government. This appears on websites, in directories, yearbooks and magazines. They have provided a worthwhile service for years.
I also acknowledge the value of the work done by the GCIS entity, the Media Development and Diversity Agency that seeks to promote media diversity and development, particularly in rural areas.
There is much to be uneasy about what the MDDA does in seeking to 'transform' the print media which in its eyes, this is controlled by four mammoth companies that indulge in anti-competitive behaviour and reflect the power blocks that supported apartheid. So, like rugby, it hurts to witness its survival.
Later this month our committee is expecting to preside over a two-day indaba on the transformation of the print media. Why such energy and angst has to be invested in this is beyond me. The print media is battling worldwide to survive in the face of technology that offers up a myriad of publication platforms. Technology will transform the print media far faster than any bureaucratic process government can come up with. So leave it alone.
But what the MDDA does, that is valuable, is support, through grants and subsidies, small community and commercial newspapers, radio and television stations. This is a valuable source to create diversity of media voices and, as long as government does not use its financial clout to influence editorial content, we will support this endeavour to help budding publishers and broadcasters find their feet.
Many of these media outlets are run by passionate people. They have invested their pensions from previous jobs or have managed to borrow money from friends and others, to get going. Some of them are the kind of mavericks that newspapers need. They are driven by the need to communicate relevant information about their communities, often in indigenous languages.
There are some who will fail because they are freeloading on what seems to them an easy, government-funded job. They must be made to realise that this is not a social grant and must be weeded out of the system as soon as their lack of talent becomes evident.
GCIS should allocate more of its share of taxpayers' money to the MDDA, which needs to help promising publishers and broadcasters become financially independent.
But, to get back to the spin doctors. There is the matter of the Secrecy Bill adverts. When the government faced exceptional opposition to this legislation it embarked on a countrywide public participation process in the hopes of demonstrating that the majority of people outside the metros supported it. They were proved wrong.
So an advertising campaign, masterminded by GCIS, was launched to tell South Africans that they had been misinformed and that the main intent of the laws is to protect citizens against identity theft. What rubbish. The adverts were a blatant attempt by the government to subvert the democratic legislative process by deceiving the public.
Now, if the Department of State Security, in whose name the adverts were placed, published its deceitful message in a newspaper, the ANC would say this would justify taking it to the Press Ombudsman, or to a Media Tribunal.
But the adverts fall outside any editorial intervention. There is no Press Code applicable here. The correct channel is to take the complaint about government's laying adverts to the Advertising Standard Authority. Which is what the Democratic Alliance did.
If the adverts were about a fast-food outlet food claiming its deep-fried meals were the answer to eternal youth the Advertising Standard Authority would have acted in a flash to get the adverts withdrawn.
But when it comes to the government blatantly lying to its citizens, courtesy of GCIS, the advertising watchdog left its dentures at home. It wimped out and said it couldn't act because the adverts expressed an opinion.
The DA strongly disagrees and has asked the ASA to reconsider its decision. We believe the government adverts have abused the trust or the consumer – who in this case are the nation's citizens. We believe the adverts also exploited citizen's lack of experience, knowledge or credulity, which should because for ASA action.
We also believe that the adverts sparked fear in our citizens by saying that their ID numbers and birth certificates were vulnerable to theft if this legislation was not passed. And, let's remember, that Minister of State Security claimed there were spies out there wanting to steal government information. There are already laws in place to safeguard both these issues.
The protection of our democracy is the responsibility of every citizen, particularly those that form organisations to safeguard the innocent and uninformed from exploitation and manipulation. I suggest the Advertising Standards Authority do its job properly before it is obliged by the courts to do so.
One of the Democratic Alliance's main disputes with the ANC is its inability to comprehend the separation between party and government. Let me dispel any lingering doubts the nation might have about taxpayers' money being used, via GCIS endeavours to fight the ANC's 2014 general election campaign.
The ANC's communication policy document for discussion at its upcoming conference in Manaung clearly demonstrate this conflation. The relevant words are found in paragraphs 143 to 148.
Let me read some of the discussion points:
"The ANC's communication machinery and effectiveness as the ruling party is as strong as the ANC government's machinery and effectiveness. There is weakness in co-ordinated and streamlined government communications which has resurfaced in recent times which has had bearing on how the ANC communicates and performs on matters related to governance and service delivery.
Paragraph 144. For instance, the ANC government service delivery records are not readily communicated to influence and set the media agenda, and thus do not form basis of dinner table and general media discussions. This is clearer during service delivery protests when in some instances people burned recently built schools, clinics and library in the protest against lack of service delivery.
Paragraph 145: The lack of government communication was also clearly evident during the recent national and local elections when it was left solely to the ANC campaign to highlight the ANC government achievements, contextualise the non-deliveries where they existed and still continued to battle for re-election in order to continue pursuing the ANC transformation agenda.
Paragraph 146: (I make no apologies for the grammar here. I will read it as it appears, and then offer an interpretation). In a pro-active campaign and co-ordinated government communication, issues of service delivery would not form part of contest, but what the future holds and which political party is best positioned to take our country forward. I think this should read: In a pro-active ANC campaign with co-ordinated government communications, issues of service delivery would not form part of the contest (between political parties). But that the campaign should focus on what the future holds and which political party is best positioned to take our country forward.
This last paragraph – seemingly innocuous in its wording – find a home in a political party policy document because the ANC sees taxpayer-funded GCIS as an essential component of its election arsenal.
Experienced journalists understand to the core of their being that readers are not stupid and they know when they are being lied to. No amount of smooth talking is going to convince them that that's not sewerage they're dodging on their way to catch trains that aren's running on time I caution GCIS against using taxpayers' money to promote political party agendas not to do so imperils us all.
Mrs J D KILIAN / END OF TAKE
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Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 487
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Ms M R SHINN
Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, colleagues and other dignitaries, as stated on behalf of Cope in the budget deliberations in the portfolio committee, the core skills and competency levels of executive officials in the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS are exemplary. There is little doubt that they have the capacity to execute their strategic plan efficiently. Similarly, the Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, is one of the most efficiently managed government agencies, although its chief executive officer and the GCIS chief executive officer are a lethal combination when it comes to a potential risk to media freedom in the country. Consequently, the opposition needs to remain vigilant for their pronouncements and plans, particularly when hon Kholwane has his ways.
While the GCIS consumes a relatively small portion of the total Budget, its role is of strategic importance to ensure effective and credible communication and information to both domestic and international audiences. Perceptions of today become the realities of tomorrow. The GCIS has the daunting challenge to manage public perception on incidents and a wide range of issues, whether positive or negative. Their successes or failures impact directly on local and international perceptions of South Africa as a country, a democracy, an investment destination, a people and an economy. The social and economic implications thereof cannot be underestimated.
The GCIS is, however, burdened with a further and perhaps more daunting challenge, the challenge of credibility, which is, to be recognised as an objective, transparent and reliable source of information. More plainly put, it is the challenge not to allow itself to become a propaganda machine that pumps up good news beyond proportion and covers up for government failures, as the previous colleague has stated.
Chairperson, a classic example of blundered government communication and wastage was the SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, communication campaign of 2009. On 17 June 2009, in the debate on this very Vote, I questioned the value and content of an expensive and extended advertising and communication blitz by Sanral. Night after night, channel by channel, newspaper after newspaper, advertisements informed the public about the role of Sanral and how their activities would benefit road users. The Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project was also featured prominently during the 2009 election campaign by the ANC. [Interjections.]
In 2009, I questioned the need to spend millions on advertising a state agency – essentially, singing its praises together with that of the department. After the e-toll fiasco, with serious implications for Sanral and government, the 2009 proved to have been fruitless, wasteful expenditure. Excessive amounts were spent on a campaign that lacked the most important component, honesty and credibility, such as disclosing and explaining why and who will be paying for these beautiful new roads in Gauteng and who will benefit and be enriched through the toll collection system?
The financial and economic disaster now faced as a result of the e-toll fiasco will be a challenge for the GCIS. Sanral's good name and reputation and, perhaps, also that of South Africa as an international investment destination will be very difficult to rebuild and will take much more than another slick, expensive state communication campaign. A second aspect, Chairperson, is the potential risk of abuse of the GCIS to advance political careers and the ANC. This could be as dangerous as the abuse of state or police intelligence in factional politics. Both have been in the past and can again be abused if not vigorously guarded against by the professional conduct of officials and through vigorous political and media oversight.
I therefore caution the GCIS to brace themselves during the year ahead. GCIS professionals should fiercely resist attempts by leading lights in government to polish their marbles on the road to Mangaung. It would be naive to think that there will not be attempts to control and manipulate communication services to advance personal popularity. [Interjections.]
This brings me to another potential pitfall for the GCIS – spending a multimillion rand advertising budget through an in-house agency that would negotiate special deals with media houses, including outdoor advertising companies. Will it be to maximise public resources, or will it perhaps be to arrange for advance trade-offs for discounts and freebie election billboards in future? The jury remains.
In the Minister's response to a question on the R10 million state of the nation address marketing campaign, it was revealed that a third of the state of the nation address marketing expenses were made up of bill board ads, also in rural areas, whereas the state of the nation address was televised live on SABC. Surely, it would have made sense to spend those monies on radio and television advertisements rather than on outdoor billboards. People without television access could obviously not follow the proceedings live on SABC. So, why spend millions to show them what they are going to miss out on?
Chairperson, the Minister and the head of department should note that Cope will continue to scrutinise the programmes and activities of the GCIS carefully. [Interjections.] Basic values and principles enshrined in the Constitution should govern the public sector, and this is also true for the GCIS. Services must be provided in impartially, fairly, equitably and without bias. That is according to section 195(1)(d) of the Constitution. Cope wishes the Minister well. He has a well-run department, but he should be very careful not to turn it into a propaganda machine of the ANC. We request him to protect his department from political interference. We wish the department well in its efforts to manage the communication challenges in the year ahead, in particular on a professional basis and with integrity. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 487
Mrs J D KILIAN
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson and hon Minister, I must say I'm acting as a carbon copy of my colleague who serves in this committee. Let me say, though, that the IFP is not a novice when it comes to government. My leader served in both the Mandela and Mbeki administrations and made valuable contributions which have never been communicated to the public – how sad.
Still talking about government communication, I must acknowledge the words of the leader of the Chinese Revolution Mao Tse-tung, who said, "that those who do not go to the people must not have any right to speak." So, yes, the IFP acknowledges the right of our government to interact with its citizenry.
IsiZulu:
NeBhayibheli liyasho ukuthi isizwe sami siyawubhubha ngenxa yokuswela ulwazi.
English:
We, as the opposition, must remain ever vigilant because, as the saying goes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Now let me just tease out a few of these elements of communications against which we must be vigilant. One of them is the content of communication – the content of what government communicates must be accurate and nonpropagandistic. Now, when I say what we communicate must be accurate, it is very important, because if there is no synergy between what government communicates and what the people down on the ground experience, then this is a recipe for disaster.
Those who are of my age will remember that publication by the nationalist government, which was called Intuthuko, a Zulu version of that magazine which was published by the nationalist government. It was so propagandistic and so glossy that it destroyed itself. In fact, I remember, as a high school student, burning that magazine, because it did not speak to what we were experiencing on the ground. Therefore, you must be careful of that one.
Now, let us take another element of this. [Interjections.] It is unparliamentary to say "shut up".[Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Continue, hon member.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Another element of this communication is the form of communication. The government has adopted what it calls izimbizo. In fact, I am using that term in its watered meaning, because, as a Nguni, I am not supposed to use that term izimbizo glibly - it is only reserved for the king, but let me use it anyway.
The government has resorted to calling izimbizo, which is good, but what has happened? These izimbizo have turned into political rallies, and they have become very partisan. How do you explain the fact that say, I'm a Member of Parliament down in Ingwavuma, then government calls an imbizo but nobody is informed. Only those who belong to a certain political party will know about that imbizo? [Interjection.] That is wrong; that is unacceptable. You must correct it.
We should also discuss the money that is used to advertise what government does. We mustn't pick and choose. We might be not selective of the newspapers that we are using. [Interjections.] No, no, I mustn't open my ears; I must open mind. You must open your mind, as well. Now, what we are saying, Chairperson, is that whilst we are supporting the right of government to communicate with the people, it must be done correctly, so that we, who do not belong to a ruling party, don't begrudge you for being a government party. What we are saying is that the money that you use is not ANC money, but government money. I, as a South African citizen, must also benefit from the money that is not being used. [Applause.]
Chairperson, there is one thing that I want to remark about some of my colleagues ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms A Z NDLAZI / GG//Mia / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 488
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,10 May 2012,"[Take-333333488] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Ms A Z NDLAZI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister the chief executive officer, CEO, and contingent, chairperson of the committee, hon Members of Parliament, captains of all industries, special and distinguished guests, my fellow countrymen and women, the honour has been bestowed upon me to brief all present here today amongst us and those who are watching from their homes, offices and in different viewing centres countrywide to briefly give a picture of the Budget Vote 9 and brand South Africa under vote 1 which gives a synopsis of the Government Communication and Information System and stride undertaken to ensure effective and efficient communications of government work foe South African public.
On 18 May 1998, during the communications Budget Vote, the GCIS was born. It will be exactly 14 years in 8 days from today. The Government Communications and Information Systems was established in terms of section 239 of the Constitution and as a strategic unit in the Presidency in terms of section 7 of the Piblic Service Act in 1994. In line with the GCSIS mandate I say that this government is communicative with its people as a democratic nation through which the voice of our people should be heard. As South Africans, this is what we strive towards and as Prixley Ka Isaka Seme said:
There is today among all races and men a general desire for progress and co-operation, because co-operation will facilitate and secure progress.
One cannot separate the words co-operation and communication because to receive the purest sense of either they must be working together.
As most of us are aware that pure government has a culture of secrecy,...
IsiXhosa:
... nangona ukutsha lwethu lumane ludinda ukukhunjuzwa.
English:
... by restricting media from exposing corruption and mismanagement which often led to wrong information being disclosed to the public. The promulgation of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa ensured that this principle was enforced by section 16 (1) and (2).
He President in his state of the nation address announced the need to deal decisively with the triple challenge of unemployment, poverty and inequality. The GCIS proudly does its part to redressing these issues through iniatives like the National Communications Strategy Framework, engagement with the media, training government communicators, Vuku'zenzele newspapers and the Thusong Services centres. These humble services serve civil society and government in a war on social ills and yes, Mr President, South Africa is equal to the task at hand.
Huge strides heve been taken by this government departments since its introduction into government. More and more citizens of South Africa are now exposed to government services because of the work done by GCIS. The Vuk'uzenzel newspaper is published in Braille, and is available in Audio, in English and in other official South African language. There are Thusong centres in the most remote areas ensuring that citizens have access to social security amenities.
IsiXhosa:
Lufikile uphuhliso ebantwini, iinkonzo ziza kubo emakhaya.
English:
To ensure quality service delivery and productivity in its field, GCSIS adheres to strict guidelines in its code of conduct and this was put to the test in the recent oversight visit which the communicative has undertaken in 20011 and 2012 respectively, with regard to service delivery nationwide. The committee, furthermore endeavour to finalise the nationwide oversight by visiting the Gauteng and North West Province in this Parliamentary term.
The mandate of the GCIS is to provide strategic leadership in government communication and co-ordinate a government-wide communication system that ensures the public is continuously informed of government programmes and policies in a manner that would improve their lives. GCIS requires the full function and running 4 programmes namely, administration, communication and communication services agency. The sum total of their budget works out to R429095000. If it was not for the constrains of time hon, members I would continue to reflect on all the great things done by the Government Communications and Information System.
The ANC supports this budget.
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY / Nb/ / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 489
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,18 May 2012,"[Take-489] [Old Assembly Main].doc"
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,10 May 2012,"[Take-333333489] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Mr A Z NDLAZI
The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Thank you, Chairperson. That is a very long title. It feels as if I'm delivering my maiden speech in this Parliament of the people because this is my first Budget Vote as the Deputy Minister for Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, as well as Administration in the Presidency, but I am not. This is not the first time.
Chairperson, last week on 2 May the world celebrated the World Press Freedom Day, arising from a declaration which was adopted by the Southern African Development Community, SADC, in Namibia, in 1991, calling for the observation and celebration of World Press Freedom Day. Experts, commentators, analysts, governments and civil society in general will pause and reflect on the freedom of the press.
I know that in South Africa, the current debate on the Protection of Information Bill has raised alarms in that we as government may intend stifling the media and have its freedom curtailed. In the struggle we fought for freedom of the press, and as government we remain committed to that freedom. How can we then today muzzle the media? The arguments and the debate should be on matters of self-regulation and independent regulation, and on protection of state information against peddlers, as is the case today. The world is changing. We have to adapt and change.
Democracy and freedom does have rules and has to be governed. The rights we enjoy today have limitations as the Constitution dictates. I look around and can say with pride that South Africa remains one of those countries in which journalists and media enjoy all the basic rights to perform their professional duties without fear or prejudice under the ANC government. [Applause.] As to the matters in the Protection of Information Bill, I am confident that, as South Africans, we will find solutions through our robust and vibrant debates as we always do. We will definitely find each other one day.
On the matters of the media tribunal versus self-regulation or independent regulation, the debate still goes on. While acknowledging the good work done by the panel on Press Freedom Commission, we, nonetheless, should expand the matter through parliamentary processes to include ordinary people who could not submit their views to that particular commission. When the media reports about them, they also get affected and their voice must be heard through the parliamentary processes.
When considering Budget Vote No 9 of 2012-2013 for the Government Communication and Information System, GCIS, we should ensure that this matter is engaged upon and debated. The Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, which gets its budget from this Vote, has that particular mandate. The agency must report on progress made and, arising from that, it must initiate a process with the relevant portfolio committee to ensure that we are able to engage one another on the matter.
Chairperson, the hon Minister has already outlined in detail programmes to be undertaken by GCIS in this financial year. These details build in our minds a picture of an energetic, co-ordinated programme of communication across the three spheres of government.
The content of government's communication is concentrated on our five key government priorities of fighting crime, health care, economic growth and employment, education, and rural development, with an added focus on our infrastructure development programme. The government infrastructure programme is a venture that calls for continual engagement with partners who will help realise the construction of major projects such as bridges, dams, railways, electricity and roads, for which President Jacob Zuma called for in the state of the nation address three months ago.
The programme is a venture that will create interest among the millions of South Africans who are keen to take up the vast number of job opportunities that will result from the development of public infrastructure over the coming years. This is also a venture that will stimulate international interest and ultimately, confidence in South Africa as a site of development that is becoming increasingly attractive to international investors and trade partners. This has to be continually communicated to international investors and, thus, fulfil the mandate of GCIS of being the pulse of communication excellence in government.
Communication engagement within government and between government, citizens and shareholder groups is another imperative driven by GCIS. In this regard, GCIS practises development communication using mediated and unmediated forms of communication, and building sound stakeholder relations within government and external stakeholders.
GCIS provides strategic leadership to the interplay between national government communication and that of provinces, in particular the communication components of premiers' offices. This is done by presenting the national communication strategy to provincial and local structures for alignment and for there to be seamless dissemination of government information countrywide.
GCIS visited the Local Government Turnaround Strategy in terms of municipalities to provide support with communication strategies and communication action plans and the establishment of stakeholder forums and newsletters. GCIS co-ordinates programmes for public-participation outreach events of political principals at national, provincial and local levels to reinforce dialogue and accountability to the citizens.
GCIS also supports the implementation of access to government information and services through Thusong Service Centres. Currently, there are 170 centres in the country. They take services deep into the rural areas, and they reached five million people last year. To maximise information and service provision, GCIS works with departments like the Department of Home Affairs, the Department of Labour, the SA Social Security Agency and others to integrate and align their mobile service units.
I was in Vhembe a few weeks ago. If the people of Vhembe were sitting in the gallery today, listening to the hon Shinn, they would be disappointed because information access is a very crucial and critical element in the far-flung rural areas and the furthest, remotest areas in our country. Unfortunately, our people are just locked up there without access to information.
The telecommunication instruments are not yet accessible to all of them. You have said that there is too much money spent on salaries and I am responding to that particular issue. Yes, the instruments and infrastructure on the ground are not yet viable to reach all the people. That is why there is a bulge in the salaries. We will heed that caution so that we don't continually increase salaries, but rather work on the improvement of infrastructure so that access can be an easy element that will reduce the cost of the salaries. We can achieve that.
The GCIS programme for the year ahead also acknowledges the utility and impact of social networks and the potential this holds for direct, two-way interaction between government and citizens. We are investigating that possibility particularly in terms of the mobile phone which seems to be within reach of the people. While three million South Africans are enjoying access to the Internet, 47 million still do not have access to the Internet. Of the three million people enjoying access to the Internet, most of those interviewed indicated that they access it at work because they do not have it in their homes. Therefore, the element of instrument access to communication is still far from being realised. Thus, GCIS is there to play that particular critical role.
Since its establishment, the agency has made significant achievements in its infant stage. With a limited budget of just R200 million accumulating since 2004, the MDDA, which I'm speaking of, has supported more than 413 media projects throughout the length and breadth of South Africa in all the nine provinces, focusing on historically disadvantaged communities using indigenous languages.
Accumulatively since inception and as at 31 March 2012, the agency has trained over 1 304 people. It has provided 247 bursaries to different radio and print media. It has created approximately 310 direct and indirect job opportunities and empowered more people with skills that enable them to participate in the broader media and broadcasting industry.
The agency will continually focus on ensuring that all citizens can access information in a language of their choice and contribute to the transformation of media access, ownership and control patterns in South Africa. All of us South Africans need to support that particular agenda.
The major challenges that are faced by the MDDA include: limited funding which we need to continually look at; the declining funding for print media; the regulatory framework that governs the MDDA in terms of the regulations requiring tax certificates and audited financials from groups that are in their formative stages; the disempowering environment in print media; the lack of skills amongst the socioeconomic groups that are targeted by the MDDA; the limited broadcasting frequency spectrum; and limited exposure of small commercial and community media to advertising revenues and marketing skills.
In this coming financial year, the MDDA is planning to support at least one community radio station per community, one community media and magazine, one commercial newspaper and magazine at each district municipality, and at least one community television station in each province. We hope that the committee will support all the programmes that might be presented to it in consideration of its budget. The MMDA will conduct a study on the social impact on the community and small commercial media. The agency also plans to conduct more interventions in respect of the promotion of media literacy and the culture of reading in the rest of the other provinces. However, the challenge remains in terms of transformation.
Let me take this opportunity to thank the funding partners of the MDDA, who committed to supporting government in the implementation of the objectives of the Media Development and Diversity Agency Act. These include: the SABC, e.tv, Primedia, Kagiso Media, Jacaranda FM and East Coast Radio, Africa Media Entertainment, Algoa FM and OFM, M-Net, Multichoice, Kaya FM, Capricorn FM, Y-FM, Igagasi FM, the Heart 104,9 FM, Radio Pulpit and Avusa, Naspers, Caxton and Independent Newspapers Pty Limited. We urge that they continue their support for the noble cause of media diversity and plurality of voices and opinions. Together, we will increase the funding of the MDDA.
However, the challenges that the MDDA must really focus on include the following: Media diversity, which is its mandate; ownership and control, issues on which we must engage as a portfolio committee; the elimination of gender discrimination in the media; the promotion of gender equality; the promotion of all languages with particular reference to indigenous languages; the promotion of access to information by all; improvement in respect of children content; the working conditions and challenges for media workers; and the employment equity, etc.
Chairperson, we will also have to do and include the following: Media accountability mechanisms that complement and strengthen self-regulation with independent regulation; enhance media credibility and accountability; discourage irresponsible reporting; promote high standards in the media; encourage professionalism; and strengthen our democracy. That is the role of the media as far as that particular objective is concerned.
As the Minister has alluded to, Brand SA has been moved to the new Vote in the Presidency. We urge that, as it moves there, it be given well-deserved attention in that particular area. However, the Minister has already referred to its work in the past financial year.
During the December holiday – and I did engage the board on this - I saw an advert on TV that prided itself on our achievements as a country during the 2010 World Cup. It went like this: "They thought we would not make it but we did," and the ad showed our stadia, the roads, the police, the army, and happy children playing in good parks, etc. I was looking forward to seeing Brand SA coming up as the supporter of the advert, but it was Coca-Cola. We hope that Brand SA will market itself properly domestically in promoting our achievements, our successes, our flag, our people, our cultures, our landscape and our national anthem.
In conclusion, I wish to thank Minister Chabane for his leadership and guidance, and the CEO of GCIS, Mr Jimmy Manyi, as well as the management and staff for their dedication, energy and output. I also want to thank the MDDA board under the leadership of Ms Gugu Msibi; the CEO of MDDA Mr Lumko Mtimde; Brand SA, as it moves into another Budget Vote; its trustees under the new chairperson Ms Chichi Maponya; the CEO Miller Matola; and to wish them well in their new home.
Finally, let me thank the chief of staff in my office, Ms Bonakele Dlamini, my content advisor, Ms Nomvula Mngomezulu, my private secretary, Unathi Sityata, and all staff in my office. I really thank you very much for your support! We have a great story to tell. We are telling it well and must continue to tell it through the GCIS theme: "The Pulse of Communication Excellence in Government". Thanks to all of you. [Applause.]
Ms S R TSEBE / A N N / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 490
THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY
Ms S R TSEBE: Thank you very much hon House Chair.
Setswana:
Ke rata go dirisa motsotso o go dumedisa botlhe ba ba boneng go le botlhokwa go tlogela mekgaphe le ditiro tsa bona ba tla go itseela ka tsebe fa Letona le Motlatsatona ba rebola Tekanyetsokabo ya Lefapha. Ke dumedisa le mapalamente a mantle. Go tla ga lona go botlhokwa gore le tle go itseela ka tsebe gonne pela e tlhokile mogatla ka go romeletsa. Itseeleng ka tsebe bagaetsho. Sa pele fela hon Shinn, ...
English:
I think what I would like to do today; will differ from what I did the day before yesterday, which was on Tuesday. I just want to give you free education and I am not going to charge you not even a cent because on this one, I understand that it was not your fault. You were not a member of the Portfolio Committee on Communications then maybe hon Mickey did not do his job well in terms of handover.
It is important for us to hold a print media indaba because the transformation of print media is an outcome of a joint process in the industry through the Communication Task Group, Comtask, Report. The report was processed by Parliament hence it remains our responsibility to monitor the implementation of its recommendations hon Shinn. Hon Mpontshane, I understand but my problem on this one is that the issue of the imbizos ...
POINT OF ORDER:
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chair, on a point of order ... [Interjections.]
Ms S R TSEBE: I withdraw hon Mpontshane [Laughter.]. On the issue of the imbizos - it is so funny - when the situation is bad and there is no service delivery as they claimed that side, you all blame the ANC and when it is good, you want to share it with us. It cannot be correct hon Mpontshane. We are the ANC, we are the leaders of this government and we did not get it on a silver platter. Among the heroes who died for this government, is Solomon Kalusha Mahlangu. They paid with their lives, so respect the ANC for that.
Setswana:
Hon Chair, ANC e amogela Tekanyetsokabo e jaaka e rebotswe ke Tona. Tona rre Chabane, kgang e ya tlhabololo le ownership ya makwalodikgang ke tlhoba boroko mo setšhabeng. Re santse re itemogela kgatelelo ya bone jo: Naspers, Avusa, Caxton le Independent Group.
English:
These big four still dominate the entire value chain of the market especially printing, distribution and advertising. The integration and the very market structure is perhaps the biggest barrier to market entry and potentially show possible anticompetitive behaviour. Other mainstream media players include the Mail and Guardian and The New Age, TNA.
Setswana:
Go na le tse dingwe tse dinnye Letona tse di sa tseweng tsia jaaka makwalodikgang a baagi a a itememogelang kgwetlho ya matlole. Ka jalo, ga ba kgone go ka itsetsepela. Potso ke gore, Tekanyetsokabo e, e ba ama jang, e a go ba thusa jang gore ba kgone go tsoga? Hon Shinn o tlhalositse mo puong ya gagwe ka dingwe tse re kopaneng le tsona fa re dira oversight gore gongwe go tlhokagala mokgwa mongwe wa gore ba ka thusiwa jang gore ba seka ba ikaega thata mo pusong. Tla ke neele sekao ka Bushbuckridge News ya kwa Mpumalanga.
Se se utlwisang botlhoko thata Tona, ke gore le rona re le puso re tsaya karolo mo go digeng makwalodikgang a mo gae gonne mafapha a puso ga a a dirise le fa go na le diphatlhatiro. Le rata City Press thata Letona. Go na le dipampiri tsa kwa magaeng tse re ka di dirisang gore bagaaborona le bona ba bone tshono ya gore ba kgone go tsenya dikopo tsa ditiro tseo.
English:
We have observed hon Minister with great concern that the apartheid patterns behaviour that treats South Africans in an unequal and discriminatory manner sometimes manifests in some of the conduct of the print media including the content, coverage, distribution, management and opinions. Despite denials, this is natural, such attitudes and practices need to be confronted for the media to be a mirror of the present democratic dispensation. The reality arising out of this situation is that the majority of South Africans do not have media that report on and project their needs, aspirations and points of views onto the national discourse.
These big four do not care for national interests; their main focus is on profit. They even account to themselves.
Setswana:
Ba setse ba jele tlwae, ba tlwaetse go ikapeela ka meteme. E kete Aforikaborwa ke kwa mmapereko kwa mme-ga-a-mpone. Freedom Charter e rile batho ba tla busa, a go bonagale Letona gore batho ba a busa.
English:
The agenda of government cannot be driven by media otherwise they must also register with the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, as a political party.
I wish to reiterate that my constituency and also my political party, the ANC, are of the view that media needs to contribute towards the building of a new society and be accountable for its actions; and consistent with our resolutions with reference to print media, the ANC still notes that the current form of self-regulation as expressed in the form of the Press Ombudsman Council is not adequate to sufficiently protect the rights of the individual citizens, community and society as a whole. The Press Ombudsman has even acknowledged themselves before the portfolio committee that that they are toothless. We welcome the report and findings of the Press Freedom Commission.
Sadly, we have also noted that print media industry is not covered by a sectorial Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Charter and where media houses have concluded what looks like Black Economic Empowerment, BEE, transactions, they have not necessarily been translated into a diversity of views underlying the fact that advertising profiles and key management positions remains the same.
Let me take this opportunity hon Chair, to applaud Media Development and Diversity Agency, MDDA, since its inception under the leadership of Mr Lumko Mtimde the Chief Executive Officer, CEO, for achieving unqualified audits. The portfolio committee has observed during its oversight visits to KwaZulu-Natal, Free State, Limpopo and Mpumalanga that MDDA is really doing a good job. They have awarded grants amounting to R183,6 million to cover 407 projects over 1 300 people trained and provision of 243 bursaries to different radio and print media was made. However hon Minister, the declining funding for print media remains a serious challenge. This lack of funding is against the 2007 Limpopo Resolution. The hon Minister and the Deputy Minister were there, why is it difficult to implement or are you afraid that that side will say you are funding the ANC?
The MDDA hon Chair, is strategically positioned to deal with the already highlighted injustices of the past; the historically disadvantaged; and specifically media diversity, transformation and ownership. The question is, is the current funding model still relevant?
MDDA has a limited role in achieving the print media transformation agenda. I therefore, believe MDDA must be empowered through legislation to be able to act on this matter and ensure that issues of media transformation accordingly reach finality.
In this regard, I support the notion that print media must contribute to the media development and diversity through MDDA being given the requisite legislative powers. Despite some transformational changes that have taken place since 1994, regrettably, the average black ownership in mainstream print media to date is 14% and women participation at boards and management level is 4,44%.
On Thusong Service Centres hon Chair, it has been observed during committee oversight that a lot more still needs to be done regarding ownership and usage. Government departments must be encouraged to utilise these centres as they are nearer to the people. Clear control and monitoring systems also need to be put in place. Role of municipalities needs to be clarified. Sustainability of these centres also needs to be looked at. Again hon Minister, the issue of uniformity is important. It has been observed that during oversight visits, in other provinces, some of these centres fall under the premier's offices while in other provinces they fall under Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta. Honestly hon Minister, I was impressed by the Mpumalanga model. [Applause.]
On brand South Africa, I hope this name change from Integrated Marketing Communications, IMC, reflects a true South African in true sense. The ushering of democracy in South Africa meant that the National symbols had to reflect the principles of the new era. During strategic planning presentation, it was reported that 50% of South Africans see themselves as South Africans. I would like to add by saying Africans in general.
With regard to the index, there is a slight drop off from 56,41% to 48,94%. In improving this, we must revive the world cup spirit. Out of so many negatives, we did well as a country. Thanks to you Brand South Africa, you are indeed the true sons and daughters of South Africa.
In conclusion House Chair, it is important to note that with reference to the upcoming National Policy Reference, the ANC believes that there is a need to ensure that there is no anti-competitive behaviour in the print media business process and the entire value chain. There is also a need to strengthen its commitment to media diversity and recommits to the principles of media freedom, freedom of expression, access to information, right to communication, stricter media ownership control, regulations across media ownership rules considering public interest objectives.
As Philip Meyer pointed out in his important work, The Vanishing Newspaper:
If readers no longer trust a newspaper or a magazine, they will look elsewhere for the information they need, while the hard commercial reality indicates that a loss of trust could translate directly into print media companies.
So print media watch the space!
Setswana:
Setšhaba se le lebeletse. Ke a leboga.
Mr A C STEYN /KC/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 491
Ms S R TSEBE
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,10 May 2012,"[Take-333333491] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Mr A C STEYN: Thank you hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, distinguished guests. I am sure that the members of the country that my hon colleague was referring to that is part of this debate must be wondering whether the GCIS team have a different colour tie for every day of the week, or if that is their standard uniform. [Laughter.] Perhaps you can enlighten us, Minister.
The mission of this department is to drive coherent government messaging and to proactively communicate with the public about government policies, plans, programmes and – Minister – achievements. When you quoted this particular mission you left out achievements and perhaps for a good reason.
Whilst I support this and recognise the need for government to communicate its policies and programmes and to a lesser extent its achievements, I cannot help but point out that actions speak louder than words. What I mean by this is simply that if government at all levels were to put the same effort into the delivery of services that it appears to want to put into managing the negative perceptions of non-delivery, we would be able to reduce this department's budget quite drastically, rather than increase it, and the money saved could go towards increased delivery of services to reach a diverse section of our communities in order to bring about reconciliation and redress.
The total expenditure increased from 2008 to 2009 by an annual average rate of 18,5% to 2011-2012. And, as my colleague mentioned, this was mainly due to spending on compensation of employees. It may be worth noting that the GCIS has a staff complement of 483 out of a total establishment of 500 – much larger than the staff complement of the Department of Communications.
There is a relatively large increase from 2011-12 to 2012-13 and the budget then reduces in the outer years of the MTF period and we are told that the increase in this current budget year is because of the new building.
Now, with regard to the new building we are also told that the premises are designed, and I am quoting the GCIS –
… literally and figuratively to unleash creativity, establish synergy amongst business units that need to work together in closed quarters but are currently physically dispersed, and to enhance our (meaning the GCIS') reputation and relations with stakeholders.
I also assume that the stakeholders referred to, are not the communities that are looking to the GCIS to provide them with information on government's policies and programmes, since the building that the information would come from would not be of as much interest to them as the effective delivery of basic services.
One of the relatively new objectives of the GCIS is the media bulk-buying. We recognise that government needs to take advantage of the benefits of economies of scale. However, this strong position of GCIS buying advertising space on behalf of all government departments should not lead to the abuse of power.
There is no doubt that a functioning and healthy democracy requires dialogue between government, communities and civil society and the GCIS has an important role to play. The poor in society often suffer from deprivation, as well as low levels of health and education. Much of the information on government services needed to improve the quality of their lives, educational standards and employment or business opportunities depends on government efforts to make it available to them.
In this regard – and it has been mentioned by a few speakers – the Thusong Service Centres, formerly known as Multipurpose Community Centres, remain the primary vehicle for the implementation of this information. These centres also serve to integrate government services into primarily rural communities where there is a great need for exactly this type of service due to the great distances, often at great cost, to establish government offices.
There are a multitude of government departments that should, and in some instances do, participate with some level of elementary service at these Thusong Centres. Social Services and Home Affairs come to mind. USAASA (Universal Services and Access Agency of SA) one of the SOEs within the Department of Communication, also play a vital role to establish these centres.
It is, therefore, with great sorrow that I have to stand here and testify that by and large these centres – particularly in the rural areas, Deputy Minister – do not provide most of the essential services that it could and should.
During the two provincial oversight visits that I have been part of this year, most of these centres are underutilised due to the lack of services and in most instances the information leaflets that should be provided by GCIS are simply not there. In fact, GCIS and the SA Post Office also have an agreement whereby information stands are provided to the outlets, which I believe is an excellent initiative to make information available. Sadly, once again, while the metal stands are out there, there are no literature displayed and when the Post Office manager is asked about the lack of information the reply usually is that they are waiting for GCIS to provide them with leaflets.
Tragically, and I don't use the word lightly, in one instance when we visited a Thusong Centre – and I think this was in Mpumalanga – in a remote rural area, the building which was in a relatively good condition, despite nobody knowing who the owner was, was standing abandoned with no running water. The manager of this centre was telephoned ahead of our visit to come and unlock the gates for us, and as we were getting ready to leave the gates were being locked behind us again.
There was a community who clearly needed the services that could be provided by an official Thusong Service Centre that could have brought some form of reconciliation and redress to a deprived community. No doubt, in the delivery statistics quoted by the hon Deputy Minister in terms of 170 Thusong Service Centres, this is one of them, notwithstanding the fact that the gates that should stay open, gets locked.
I think the only thing worse than not having something, is to have the illusion of having it. In closing I wish to reiterate two of GCIS' organisational values.
Firstly, openness and transparency – the organisation states that it is open in all its communication and accountable and responsible for its actions. Secondly, honesty and integrity, where it states its officials exercise honesty in all their business dealings and strive to protect the integrity of the organisation and, by implication, government.
As members of the Portfolio Committee on Communication my colleague and I from the Democratic Alliance will hold GCIS accountable to these worthy values, as I am sure the other members of the committee will endeavour to do as well. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr C D KEKANA /
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 491 & 492
Mr A C STEYN
Mr C D KEKANA: Thank you Chair, hon Minister Chabane, hon Deputy Minister Obed Bapela, hon DG from GCIS, all distinguished guests from the entities, ladies and gentlemen.
We have been celebrated in France; it is often funny that we are not celebrated in South Africa by our own, but we are celebrated by overseas people. As one government that has promoted diversity, indigenous languages and community radios, we actually were hailed at a conference in France in that we have done very well as a country and are progressing very well with regard to diversity and indigenous languages.
Our community radios are promoting indigenous languages which have been downplayed in the past and today, because there is culture in a language and in fact the research has shown that people study better in their mother tongue. As a result indigenous languages are very important and they have been promoted by our community radios.
Some of the community radios that we visited, irrespective of limited resources were doing very well because they had been doing some fund-raising in villages and in rural townships, and they were actually offering bursaries to rural boys and girls in schools to go and do artisan jobs and even go to tertiary institutions. Some of them have actually had on the job training and became journalists who ultimately went into mainstream radio and the print media.
So, we are very proud of the work that is being done in diversifying and in promoting indigenous languages.
I just quickly want to … though my colleagues have done so … but I want to add on the issue of salaries that has been raised by the opposition on so many occasions, that actually the problem of salaries in my opinion in this country has been caused by the constituency that is represented by the opposition – the private sector.
You have a company like Shoprite where in the same year the CEO is earning an annual income of R47 million and he got a performance award of R37 million – the salary is R47 million annually and the performance award is R37 million. On average it is said that in South Africa top CEOs in the private sector earn R5 million a month. Now you can see that people are playing with millions while others are earning meagre salaries in the same companies. I know that often it is said that that is the private sector, they generate their own income and of us in government it is said that we are abusing taxpayers' money.
The point is that there is only one labour market. I'll give you an example with teaching. We need teachers in maths, science and accountancy. People with a BAC and BCom ultimately get attracted by the private sector because it pays twice, thrice even five times more than what teaching in government can afford to pay.
So, when your constituency pay high salaries, in the private sector, they are actually distorting the labour market in South Africa. Since ultimately whatever we need to do in government, unless you are going to lose very good people in government which we need to deliver services, you can't even match the private sector but you've got to pay something that to a certain extent can retain them in the public sector.
So, if you want to blame anybody, blame the private sector because inequalities there are so big that the whole labour market in South Africa gets distorted. [Interjections.]
Mr C D KEKANA: (Contd.)
POINT OF ORDER: Hon Farrow: I just wanted to know whether I could ask the member a question related to what he's saying, [Interjections.] because.. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): No hon member, don't motivate your question. Let me ask the hon member if he's prepared to take a question. Hon member, are you prepared to take a question?
Mr C D KEKANA: No, tomorrow afternoon I will be free, you can see me. [Laughter.][Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): The hon member is not prepared to take a question. Order hon members! You may continue hon member.
Mr S B FARROW: The second point I want to raise is that it is said the DA is very worried about the election, that the ANC is abusing taxpayers' money and so on. [Interjections.]
An Hon member: They do!
Mr C D KEKANA: I've never seen an opposition party in any country, whether you're quoting America with Democratic Party, Republican and Labour Party, Britain and Conservative Party, that is in an opposition for such a long time and never win the election. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
They must be worried about the elections but personally I don't think it is money that makes an election. If that was so, the DA [Interjections.] should long have won the election. I mean they couldn't even win the election against apartheid which was declared a crime against humanity.
The best they can do is change names from the United Party and Progressive Federal Party. The DA in fact, are called the Democratic Alliance. I don't know who they are in alliance with [Laughter.] because the National Party has quitted them. When they quit they said they don't think they can influence politics in South Africa if they are in alliance with the DA. So, I'm expecting DA to change their name again, because they are not in alliance with anybody. [Laughter.] They are just changing names like a chameleon that changes colour [Laughter.] and people can see through them.
The other point that hon Steyn mentioned about Mpumalanga, where there was a labour dispute and people were locked out. I was there with him and when we arrived, they wanted to talk to us and our initial attitude was that we were there to do oversight. We were not there to resolve issues of labour dispute.
Management there told us that a member of the same group came in at one stage and grabbed a community radio's microphone and started talking. So you can imagine, management is there as a commentator but this one just comes and he pushes the commentator away.
We thought it was a volatile thing if we left without addressing them. Then we went and addressed them. We resolved the matter because we went and addressed them and told them that if they have a labour dispute there are processes and procedures. What we didn't encourage was for them to be like thugs and just jump in and show disrespect and rubbish at the radio by just grabbing. You can't have a situation at a radio station where anybody just opens the door and grabs the microphone and starts talking to the public.
We are not a banana republic, [Interjections.] we are a serious republic. However, to hon Steyn, the issue is we ultimately did resolve the matter there. They were not locked up for ever, we went in, did our oversight, spoke to them and diffused a volatile situation there. They actually gave us a petition, jumped into their cars and drove away [Interjections.]
An Hon member: Ah, good for them!
So if you could try now and then, when you speak, to give people accurate information.
I just want to end by talking to COPE, Hon Tshineng. There is a book that is written that says if an organisation or institution has existed for a long time it stands a chance to exist even longer. Since it has existed chronologically, year after year, like the ANC for a hundred years and it has also not just year after year, it has changed generation and generation. Its not easy to change generation and generation of leadership and it changes ideas and different ideas so if it can survive all that, then it stands a better chance of surviving.
Now, I'm surprised because COPE never [Interjections.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: What is the relevance of the member's communication in this house to the debate at hand? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Order hon members! Order hon members! Hon member, we are dealing with a political debate on a budget vote and it's a wide range of issues that has been raised so I will allow the member to continue.
Mr C D KEKANA: So, I was just saying, if COPE wants to really challenge the ANC and be a serious opposition, they really have to survive for a few years. [Laughter.] Not threatening collapse within one year. We all loose hope in this opposition called COPE. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
I finally want to say, we in the ANC, now that you want me to talk about the budget, supports this budget. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): I now call upon the hon the Minister of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration in the Presidency.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY / VH & /Marsanne/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 493
Mr C D KEKANA
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,10 May 2012,"[Take-333333493] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION, AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to thank the PAC for donating their three minutes to me. Let me thank members for the comments and advices which they gave. A lot of the comments that have been made are meant to enhance the work that we are supposed to do and they have been very valuable indeed. It shows the focus of members on the work of their oversight and their observations, which I think as GCIS we need to take account of and improve in those areas.
I will however deal with some few issues which have been raised. The first one is around the Thusong centres. I had an opportunity today to go to Paarl in the morning to meet with the community in one of our Thusong mobile Centres. I also went to Mbekweni to meet with the communities there. They are really doing a good work. And one thing good about it is the co-ordination and the working together that exist between the province, the national and the local municipality. They are doing a very good work. I was with the head of departments there, the MEC could not come because he had another assignment, but it was a very co-ordinated work.
Now, the Gcis is not doing work on a partisan basis. We are working very well with the Western Cape and with all its municipalities. We provide communication backup and communication services to them. So, to accuse the GCIS of being an ANC mouthpiece is disingenuous in this case. However, I will come to that point later; let me deal with the rest of the issues.
The other issue that I wanted to deal with is the issue of staffing. In fact, if it was according to us the GCIS should have got more money because we understand that we are supposed to communicate throughout the country not only in urban areas, but to the deepest rural areas where there is no facility whatsoever. We are supposed to be present there. We are supposed to give services and support to provincial government, local municipalities, national departments and everybody.
So, we have to have personnel almost everywhere where we are supposed to do that work. And that is why our budget on personnel might look not to be proportional to the amount which we budget because the other proportion is not proportional to what we are supposed to be doing. The focus should be on the addition that we need in order to execute our services wherever we may be.
The other issue is that Parliament should also focus on the parliamentary offices so that GCIS should be able to provide this information to all your constituency offices throughout the country as a means of reaching out to communities.
The last point I would like to address is the conflation between the party and the state. [Interjections.] I hope you listened very careful to my speech. I never spoke about that. We try to be very careful not to compare the two. I am very happy that the DA has now begun, and I will now speak as an ANC representative in Parliament, not as a Minister ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] You created the conflation so you can not accuse me of conflating it.
The first one is that the ANC is 100 years old. If you look at the history of the ANC – I think you are following it and not only reading the policy papers – from the first crop of leadership of the ANC there were very serious writers and journalists throughout. And those were working for newspapers and some of them ran newspapers. So, the ANC, for more than 100 years understands the role of the media. It understands the separation which it needs to make between what it does in the state. We thoroughly understand media freedom and we are very carefully. [Interjections.]
I am very happy that you have been able to identify that the ANC is concerned about the capacity of government to reach citizens, and it is a legitimate concern. It is a legitimate concern because the ANC is the only political party in this country that has the widest reach; it has members in the most remote parts of the country. And the people all the time will raise concerns about the issues its government does. The ANC is the majority ruling party; it has to be concerned about the capacity of government anywhere; whether it is delivering services for water or anything. But the delivery of information to citizens is critical for citizens to access the information so that they can make choices on their part.
It is the role of GCIS. We are not a newspaper or media magazine. We are a government communication services ... [Interjections.] ... that provides information to citizens in the diverse ways to reach all citizens. Our objective is to ensure that all citizens can access the services which we are supposed to provide. [Interjections.]
So, the ANC discusses its policy paper as well as the opposition can discuss the ANC - they have got a right to discuss the ANC-government. But the ANC also has a right to discuss its own government – the weaknesses which it has in terms of communication to citizens ... [Applause.] ... have to be discussed by the ANC. Because it is a ruling party to determine policies going forward as to how to reach citizens in the most important way so that it can deliver services. So, we are not apologetic to that part as the ANC.
Hon members will recall that as GCIS, we are very careful not to comment in a manner that will suggest that we are commenting on behalf of the ANC. We are very careful in doing that. You may check all our statements and check everything. We try to make sure that ... [Interjections.] despite the provocation in many cases. We try to avoid the situation where we would be seen to be speaking on behalf of the ANC. The ANC has its own spokesperson, its own media machinery they are able to respond adequately to the issues which are raised. We respond on behalf of government institutions, including the Western Cape government, the DA municipalities, the IFP municipalities and everybody.
Lastly, in this Parliament, I think there may be four political parties that are older than this Parliament, and that is the ANC, the IFP, the PAC and Azapo. The rest have been formed in Parliament. [Applause.] So, they have got no experience. Yes, individuals might have participated in the fight against apartheid but none of all these parties fought against apartheid. As parties they have got no right and no authority to speak on the fight against apartheid, except as individual members of that party. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon members! Thank you, hon Minister.
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 18:57.
///tfm///END OF TAKE
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