Hansard: Approppriation Bill: Debate on Vote No 10 – National Treasury (State Security)

House: National Assembly

Date of Meeting: 09 May 2012

Summary

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Minutes

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 384


THURSDAY, 10 MAY 2012

PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Members of the Extended Public Committee met in Committee Room E249 at 14:04.

House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 384


Start of Day

APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 3 – National Treasury (State Security):

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, hon members, distinguished guests, members of our intelligence community, our intelligence veterans, the Inspector-General for Intelligence, the Public Protector, and fellow South Africans, in this year of the centenary of the ANC, let me borrow from the words of one of our great leaders:

There is today among all races and men a general desire for progress and for co-operation because co-operation will facilitate that progress ... it is natural, therefore, that there should arise even among us this striving, self-conscious movement sighing for union. We are the last among all the nations of the earth to discover the priceless jewel of co-operation. Co-operation is the key and watchword which opens the door, the everlasting door which leads to progress and national success. The South African Native Congress is the voice in the wilderness bidding all the dark races of the subcontinent to come together once or twice a year in order to review the past and reject therein all those things which have retarded progress, the things which poison the spring of our national life and virtue, to label and distinguish the sins of civilisation and as members of our household to talk and think loudly on our home problems and the solutions to these.

These were the words of Pixley ka Seme on 24 October 1911, as they were preparing the launch of the ANC. Today's review of the Budget of the State Security Agency occurs once again when there are no discernible major threats to our constitutional democracy. However, we have to sharpen our vision on some of the challenges and threats we confront, resolving obstacles to progress to our national democratic revolution, and engage in a national dialogue to provide workable solutions to these threats and challenges we face as a young nation. Some of the threats we face derive from factors such as the global economic downturn, violent protest actions, and illegal migration. Others may arise from the lack of protective security implementation in government, cybercrime, espionage and subversion, corruption and illicit economy. We may not close our eyes to the threats of food, water and energy security.

On 10 April, His Excellency President Zuma, in his address during the Intelligence Services Day commemoration, reminded us that the-

... intelligence and security services are key and important components of a state. Intelligence services work involves secret work which may, at face value, appear to outsiders to be unrelated to government objectives. We still need to raise awareness that intelligence work is actually intended to advance government work and programmes. It is not just smoke and mirrors, spies and cameras as it is made out to be.

We, in the Department of State Security, are seized with the work of supporting government to achieve the outcomes to ensure that all South Africans are and feel safe and that we create a better South Africa and contribute to a better and safer Africa and the world. For this reason, the Department of State Security will continue to ply its trade guided by the theme: "Working Together to Build a Safer Nation in a Secure World." This theme marks continuity with change. Continuity because we allow centres of excellence to soar to greater heights, working centres to strive for being centres of excellence and those areas that are not rising to the challenge are changed with a view to infusing a new focus, priorities and if needs be, new leadership to drive them.

The processes that we had embarked upon in reviewing and restructuring the intelligence architecture are meant to ensure that we have professional and efficient state security architecture. Commendable progress has been made, since last year, with regard to the restructuring, consolidation and establishment of a professional State Security Agency, SSA. In our previous address, we committed ourselves that we will finalise the integration of all our operating systems. We are happy to report that the benefits of an integrated State Security Agency are already visible due to the savings that are accruing from having a single Asset Register, payroll, budget management, financial accounting and procurement systems. We have entered the last phase of this restructuring process and have commenced with the official migration of our members into new structures. We have also appointed a programme manager at a deputy director-general level, to ensure that this crucial project is finalised within our timeframes. As part of stabilising the organisation, the migration of members is expected to be concluded by June 2012. This will be followed by the process of filling vacancies through internal transfers and external recruitment.

Pursuant to our commitment made last year of codifying the presidential proclamation of 2009 that created the State Security Agency, we have prepared and tabled in Parliament the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill. This legislation is currently before the ad hoc committee of the National Assembly, and we hope it will soon be finalised into law governing the State Security Agency.

In the current financial year, we will focus on reviewing the remuneration management system, in order to complement the changes in the organisational structures and motivate the recruitment and retention of high calibre members whilst improving organisational effectiveness and the sustainable use of financial resources. Training remains the driving pillar of our restructuring programme whose mainstay is to reskill, refocus, empower and energise our members. Particular attention will be placed on tradecraft as well as language training. We will establish a centre for foreign intelligence service training whilst, on the other hand, our members will continue to receive specialised training from our strategic partners abroad. Our flagship cadet programme is being reviewed in order to attract loyal, dedicated and disciplined members to the agency. This year, we have begun with the recruitment of 150 young South Africans to our college as part of a three-year plan to inject 540 new recruits in our community.

Part of our objective as State Security is to be able to conduct vetting for all government departments in a user-friendly and speedier manner. This is in line with our counterintelligence mandate that ensures that we create conditions of security that enable government and critical state entities to do their work. In this respect, we have prioritised the appointment of managers in the critical areas of vetting and information, communications and technology, ICT, security. Last year, we committed ourselves to reducing the backlog over the three-year period. As part of extending our vetting field unit beyond national departments, consultations were undertaken by the State Security Agency with provincial and national departments regarding the establishment of vetting field units. To date, 19 vetting field units were established at a number of organs of state.

In this financial year, we will build on this progress and prioritise the finalisation of the integrated SSA national vetting strategy. The strategy is intended to improve turnaround time in the vetting processes. The risk and project-based approaches that we intend to build into the strategy will go a long way in assisting with unnecessary backlogs. Importantly, we seek to automate the vetting process to make it more user-friendly and to cut down on the turnaround times. This automation will begin the introduction of a continuous rather than a periodic approach to vetting. As part of our vetting mandate, we have also prioritised the training of security managers across government departments.

When delivering his state of the nation address, His Excellency President Zuma called for the screening of all supply chain management personnel in government. This is one of the interventions aimed at curbing corruption. This is critical, given government's bold and visionary infrastructure development programme. In this regard, we have prioritised this project and remain ready and capable to implement it.

We continue with the project of integrating our intelligence technology platforms, in order to improve service delivery and to reduce the turnaround time. The storage capacity for the lawful intercepts was upgraded which has resulted in a faster and more efficient monitoring system. This has resulted in the improvement of our delivery of lawful intercepts to law enforcement agencies. The product distribution network, together with the Internet Protocol Interception Systems, will be prioritised in this financial year.

We wish to express our appreciation to Judge Khumalo, our former designated interception judge who has retired, and wish him well. We thank him for his contribution in ensuring that we do our work in terms of the law. We also welcome our new designated judge, Judge Yvonne Mokgoro. We look forward to working with her in finalising the outstanding matters such as the electronic direction system, as well as distribution networks.

We are pleased to report that Cabinet approved the National Cybersecurity Policy Framework in February 2012. This policy will improve the co-ordination of government's response to the 21st century challenges of information security. The State Security Agency continues to co-ordinate the work of government in this regard, with the hope of finalising a comprehensive policy by the end of next year.

We had reported last year that we were in an advanced stage of developing our National Security Strategy and our National Interest Doctrine. The National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, NICOC, task team has developed a draft security strategy, following consultations with critical role players in and outside the security structures to enrich the concept. This draft strategy is to be further refined with the involvement of stakeholders, including Parliament, before it is finalised into a composite strategy.

This House would recall that, as part of our National Security Strategy, we had identified dual-use technologies that have both security and commercial applications as a priority. An interdepartmental task team has been established and is tasked to determine the status of dual-use technologies and to propose plans for control and research and development.

As part of the SADC region, our country continues to be confronted by the problems of illegal migration and organised transnational crime, including human smuggling. We continue to work within the SADC framework together with our neighbours to collectively address this global challenge in our region. Our work on the formation of the border management agency is on course. The business case has been established and will soon be finalised by the Cabinet committee. We hope to establish a fully fledged border management agency by 2014.

The single biggest threat to our developmental agenda is fraud and corruption. This is a cancer that steals from the most vulnerable in our society and undermines good governance and public confidence in the state. We continue with our efforts of ensuring that the security cluster is free of elements of corruption. We appreciate the outstanding work done by our inspector-general, through investigations into the allegations of malpractice and corruption within the security agencies, and we will not hesitate to act on her recommendations. We continue to participate in the anti-corruption task team which co-ordinates effective investigation and prosecution of significant crimes including corruption.

Our flagship programme of securing special events is on course. I don't have to remind you that we secured, as a nation, the Cop-17 conference last year and, because of the dignitaries who attended an important occasion on 8 January in Mangaung, we also protected that event.

We recognise the attendant challenges of establishing a new organisation. In this respect, we are committing ourselves to the creation of a conducive working environment for all our members through establishing internal consultation mechanisms. The task team was tasked by the Minister in 2008 to find ways of improving this consultation mechanism, and its work is soon to be finalised.

Our efforts to ensure that there is closer co-operation between veterans and the State Security Agency are ongoing. We have completed the draft constitution for a state security veterans association which will enable the sharing of intelligence knowledge, experiences and expertise with current members. In addition, it is envisaged that the association will promote the history of heritage of the State Security Agency. We have directed the agency to continue with consultations with our veterans, in order to establish the association by the end of this financial year.

The gradual transformation of the world from a bipolar arrangement into a global village, coupled with the inherent competition for world resources and desire by nation states to claim their share of the world markets, highlights some of the challenges in today's complex world affairs. President Zuma also reminded us that-

... the radical transformation occurring globally has narrowed the distinction between foreign and domestic threats. World borders are now softer than ever. Whether it is transnational crime, terrorism or the global political situation, the international security situation requires all states to remain vigilant and to co-operate in protecting respective national security interests and their citizens.

The SADC region remains stable except for the political and security challenge in Madagascar. The implementation of the SADC roadmap is held hostage by the regime's failure to enact amnesty legislation and the unconditional safe return of all political exiles, including Ravalomanana, to the island. The collapse of Gaddafi government has led to insecurity, increased terrorism and proliferation of arms in the Sahel and Maghreb regions. This has resulted in an armed insurgence from the northern part of Mali and the subsequent coup d'état that deposed President Amadou Touré on 21 March 2012. The divisions in the ranks of the army has not been able to stop the insurgence but resulted in an attempted coup last week. The Economic Community of West African States, Ecowas, is trying to intervene but the message from the African Union, AU, and the international community is clear: stop the insurgency and division of the country and return to democratic processes and elections.

The people of Guinea-Bissau continue to face tragedy after tragedy. January was marked by the demise of former President Sanhá. This necessitated the speaker of the national assembly, Mr Pereira, to act as interim president and to prepare for national elections, which were held in March 2012. The ruling party, under the leadership of Prime Minister Carlos Gomes Junior obtained 49% of the votes in the first round and were poised to win the second round in April; yet on 12 April, the army once again staged a coup d'état. The fundamental problem in Guinea-Bissau is the lack of retirement arrangements for the army. This has resulted in a top-heavy army structure which thrives on political interference and drug trade. The AU will not tolerate the military junta and has called for the immediate reinstatement of the elected government and electoral processes. We further call upon the deployment of an international force to assist Ecowas in the security sector reforms and protection of the democratic processes. We urge the international community to mobilise resources for these reforms, including solidarity to the masses of people of Guinea-Bissau from the global citizens.

We remain concerned with the tension and recent hostilities between Sudan and South Sudan. We call on both parties to cease all hostilities and return to negotiations under the auspices of the AU High Level Panel led by former President Thabo Mbeki. War is not a solution, but dialogue is an answer. As South Africa, we will continue to encourage both parties in finding solutions, particularly in relation to revenue sharing mechanisms and border demarcation. Despite these hot spots in Africa, including political challenges in Somalia, in the words of Seme:

The brighter day is arising upon Africa. Already I seem to see her chains dissolved ... conflicts and strife are rapidly disappearing before the fusing force of this enlightened perception of the true intertribal relation, which relation should subsist among a people with a common destiny.

As Africans, we must deal decisively with afro-pessimism and dismiss the negative utterances of our detractors, like the member there. The role of the AU Commission is central to the rising of our continent. We must always ensure that our decisions are taken democratically to reflect the views of all state as equals, including ensuring that all our member states are properly represented in the leadership and staff of our union. For 49 years, the Southern African region of the AU has never been given the opportunity to lead the organisation. This is contrary to the practice and spirit of regional rotation and the equality amongst the five regions of our continental body. In this respect, SADC is once again putting forward the candidature of Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma to be the next Chair of the AU Commission.

Mr G B D MC INTOSH: She is the wrong candidate. She will never get it.

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: She is the best candidate that South Africa and SADC have ever had. She has a very good track record as a Minister of Foreign Affairs. She is a capable woman. She is able to change things wherever she is deployed. [Interjections.]

In June, we will be attending the third international meeting of high representatives supervising security issues which will take place in St Petersburg in Russia. This meeting will focus on international information security, including finalising the concept of the convention on international information security and considering issues of internal energy security, as well as fighting piracy. On the sidelines of this conference, unofficial consultations of the heads of the security council of the Brics member states will be held in preparation for the Brics summit in South Africa 2013. In striving for the highest attainable governance standards, we will continue to work closely with the Office of the Inspector-General of Intelligence, the Auditor-General and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI.

Chairperson, allow me to thank, firstly, my family and friends for their constant support, particularly from the princess there, Lindo, and Ntando – and happy birthday, Ntando. I would also like to thank Judge Mokgoro who is responsible for interception directions, the Auditor-General, Mr Terence Nombembe, the inspector-general Adv Radebe, members of the JSCI under the leadership of my colleague Adv Burgess, veterans of our civilian services, the chairperson of our staff council, Mr Xolile Mashukuca, the Acting Director-General of the State Security Agency, Mr Dennis Dlomo, and his senior management team, my advisory team and my office staff. I request this House to adopt the Vote for State Security Agency. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr C V BURGESS /Mia / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 385 & 386


"Committee Room E249 Main",Unrevised Hansard,10 May 2012,"[Take-333333385] [Committee Room E249 Main][NW-2-49][gs].doc"

THE MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY

Mr C V BURGESS: Chairperson, hon Minister of State Security, hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers of the Security Cluster, Inspector General of Intelligence: Ambassador Adv. Radebe, the Public Protector, Acting Director-General of the State Security: Mr Dennis Dlomo, Head of Crime Intelligence, the Chief of Defence Intelligence, members of the intelligence community, distinguished guests and hon members,

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON(Mr C T Frolick): Order hon memebers!

Mr C V BURGESS: My previous Budget Vote speeches in 2010 and 2011, focused on matters of national security and patriotism. In 2010, because it was the year of the Soccer World Cup, I particularly raised the issue of patriotism. A patriot, I said, is a person who is a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its ways of life, a loyalist and a national flag-waver.

At the time, I reminded the House, and will continue to do so, that there were good people who work silently and dutifully out of the public eye, and who play a major role in protecting the people of our country by the nature of the work they do. I said then, that these people never get credit for the work they do. Yet they are the ones that are at the forefront of producing the products that warn us of any threats to our national security and national interests. We need to acknowledge their contribution. These people make up our intelligence community. They are true patriots of South Africa.

I acknowledge the work of our intelligence community, Chairperson, but there are many more good people in our country, who equally play a critical role in securing the country and our people. These people understand the importance of nation-building and the meaning of national security as set out in section 198 of our Constitution. Let me remind the hon members, this section reads: [and I quote]

National security must reflect the resolve of South Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better life.

These ideals bring about security and stability, the ideals we all demand and strive for; however, Chairperson, there are those, a few disgruntled individuals. These people are rogues, not whistleblowers, not patriots, not concerned citizens but traitors. Chairperson, the simple dictionary meaning of traitor is: "a person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust, or a person who commits treason by betraying his or her country".

They undermine the constitutional order of our state that good citizens uphold. They distort and leak classified and sensitive information and have no regard for the consequences of their actions. They have no regard whether their actions compromise our national security or result in the death of any of our intelligence agents. Instead, they conceal themselves from detection because their agendas are evil and hidden.

Chairperson, let me come to the point, the hon Minister of Police in his Budget Vote speech yesterday, dealt with the matter of crime intelligence. He gave all the details necessary concerning the General Mdluli matter. I share with the Minister of Police his warning about relying on the media for accuracy of information. You see Chairperson; we have adopted a particular intelligence oversight model in our country. The oversight structures consist of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, the Office of the Inspector General of Intelligence, the Auditor–General and the Judge who deals with the authorisation of interceptions and related matters. Each entity has its function, which are set out in legislation. The matters, which you read about, all fall within the jurisdictional authority of one or more of the oversight structures which I have just referred to. Why then would people undermine the authority of these structures?

The activities of our intelligence entities are governed by our Constitution and legislation. The Public Audit Act 25 of 2004 provides for the auditing of confidential, secret or classified accounts by the Auditor-General. Law regulates the operation of Special or Secret Accounts and the utilization of funds in these accounts. The oversight bodies, Inspector General of Intelligence, the Auditor-General's office and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence have the necessary oversight authority over these accounts and the activities in these accounts. Why then would people undermine the authority of these structures?

The JSCI is a multi-party joint committee. All its members have been vetted and have top-secret clearances. The Office of the Inspector General is independent just like the Office of the Auditor-General and that of the Public Protector. Chairperson, as South Africans, we must avoid becoming the slaves of information peddlers, traitors and rogue agents. You see Chairperson, to appreciate the dangers that await a nation when traitors and rogue agents get to work, look at these cases: Robert Philip Hansen was born in 1944 and he became an FBI agent in 1976. During his 25-year FBI career, he had access to a broad range of highly sensitive counterintelligence and military information. He spied for the former Soviet Union and Russian Intelligence Services against the United States.

Hanssen's espionage spanned over more than 20 years. He compromised some of the United States' most important counterintelligence and military secrets, including the identities of dozens of human sources, at least three of whom were executed. Hanssen gave the KGB thousands of pages of highly classified documents and dozens of computer disks detailing United States strategies in the event of nuclear war, major developments in military weapons technologies, information on active espionage cases, and many other aspects of the United States Intelligence Community's Soviet counterintelligence program. Hanssen was arrested on February 2001.

On 6 July 2001, he pleaded guilty to 13 counts of espionage. He was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole because he had entered into a plea agreement in which he agreed to cooperate with the United States government and submit to debriefings, he avoided the death sentence. His activities have nevertheless, bee described by the United States Department of Justice Commission for the Review of FBI Security Programs as possibly the worst intelligence disaster in the United States history.

Then there is the case of Aldrich Hazen Ames, who was a Central Intelligence Agency counter-intelligence officer and analyst, who in 1994, was convicted of spying for the Soviet Union and Russia. Ames could have faced the death penalty for his crimes.

However, he pleaded guilty and received a sentence of life imprisonment. It is estimated that the information Ames provided to the Soviets led to the compromise of at least 100 United States intelligence operations and to the execution of at least 10 United States sources.

There is one further character, namely Jonathan Pollard.

An HON MEMBER: What is the relevance of this? [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]

Mr C V BURGESS: We will get there now ... [Interjections.]

As a civilian intelligence analyst in the United States, he was sentenced to life imprisonment for one count of espionage.

An HON MEMBER: Did you find that on Google or on Wikipedia?

An HON MEMBER: On Wikileaks.

Mr C V BURGESS: The point I am making is that working in the intelligence community is a serious and responsible business.

There is no country in the world that tolerates the behaviour of traitors, information peddlers and rogue agents. In the three United States cases that I have referred to, all the perpetrators avoided death sentences by pleading guilty, and today remain imprisoned, without the prospect of parole. This indicates the seriousness with which democratic countries take matters of intelligence.

I repeat that intelligence matters are serious. We must not allow a few rogues and traitors to set the agenda of our national security. I appeal to the House and the nation to let the oversight structures do their work, and wait for the results ... [Interjections.] Then we will be informed by legitimate processes on what the true situation is.

I think it is appropriate, at this stage, to acknowledge the efforts of three of our top intelligence leaders who have left the State Security Agency, SSA. [Interjections.] Ambassador Jeff Maqetuka, the former Director-General, DG, of the SSA, Ambassador Mo Shaik, former head of the foreign branch of the SSA, and Gibson Njenje, the former head of the domestic branch of the SSA. Unfortunately, they have all recently left the SSA and their experience in the field of intelligence will be sadly missed.

My colleagues, the hon members of the committee ... [Interjections.] ... from the National Assembly, will be dealing with other matters. You will hear from them concerning matters over which the committee has jurisdiction, and they will also address the question of defence intelligence.

At this stage I want to thank all those from the intelligence community who have come here today to listen to us, and we hope that the assurances that I have given them from the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, will be taken to heart, and that they will know that the JSCI, together with its partners in the oversight business, will be doing its work to make sure that we look into matters that concern the nation. There is no need for people to be nervous, scared and frantic. These things will be dealt with and the truth will be made known. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr D J STUBBE / C.I & TH//nvs(Eng&Afr

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 386 & 387


Mr C V BURGESS

Mr D J STUBBE: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, hon members, members of the services and people in the gallery, the past year was marred by negative publicity in the intelligence services, particularly in Crime Intelligence, CI.

In November 2010, a so-called top document, setting out allegations of a conspiracy against President Zuma, surfaced. This triggered a spate of headlines in local and overseas newspapers, ranging from a murder investigation against General Mdluli and the purchase of two vehicles with taxpayers' money. The latter led to the subsequent compromise of a secret, covert operation. [Interjections.]

During March 2011, a warrant of arrest was issued against General Mdluli. In September 2011, he was charged with corruption and fraud, relating to the purchase of the two vehicles from the witness protection fund, but in December the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, withdrew both cases.

The JSCI held various meetings with the top management of CI, while numerous requests were made to the Minister of Police to appear before the JSCI, to share information on the situation. He honoured us with one visit, after the situation had deteriorated to such an extent that almost all the senior managers were removed from CI. [Interjections.]

With regard to the State Security Agency, SSA ...

Afrikaans:

... die intelligensiediens is ook nie van negatiewe media kommentaar gespaar nie. Die een oomblik vra Minister Cwele vir steun en aanvaarding vir die drie direkteur-generaals in die intelligensiediens, en die volgende oomblik versuur die verhouding tussen die Minister en sy drie top bestuurslede sodanig, dat een na die ander die diens verlaat.

Daar word gesê dat dit alles te make het met die herstruktureering en die vorming van een entiteit, die SSA. Wat nie gesê word nie is dat die Minister, vanweë sy uitgebreide buitelaandse-toere, uit voeling geraak het met die lede Njenje, Maqetuka en Shaik.

English:

Your overseas commitments kept you so busy, that various requests by the JSCI were turned down due to your unavailability. The JSCI had valid questions to put to you regarding the exit of the three most senior personnel. We as the JSCI only became aware of your appointment of the acting director-general through newspaper reports.

Afrikaans:

Minister, die miskenning van die komitee is dalk vir u 'n maklike uitweg, maar vir my is dit onaanvaarbaar.

English:

The JSCI summoned the service to appear before the committee after we read newspaper articles relating to a fire in Durban. During our deliberations we were assured that everything was under control. It was being investigated by the South African Police Service, SAPS, and that a detailed report would follow in due course. Well, sad to say, we have not received any report to date.

Afrikaans:

Met verwysing na verlede jaar se begrotingsdebat wil ek die volgende uitlig.

English:

With regard to national communications, Minister Cwele said, and I quote,

We intend to conclude policy on electronic direction systems as well as distribution networks, in order to improve service delivery, and to reduce the turnabout time. We will do this after consultation with the JSCI.

Guess what? Till now, this has not happened. In relation to fraud and corruption, Mr Cwele mentioned that the SSA, together with the Financial Services Board, FSB, completed the investigation relating to the Group Life Scheme, into the theft, fraud and possible corruption by the insurance broker, negligence by the insurance company and mismanagement by the service management.

The fraudsters have been referred to the police and the NPA for investigation and prosecution, while the FSB withdrew the licence of the insurance broker for a period of five years. To date, there has been no progress report to the JSCI, and the five years' suspension of the broker has almost expired.

The issue surrounding the building of an office block on unstable dolomite and the subsequent wasteful expenditure is also outstanding. When will you deal with this matter? [Interjections.]

There is also the issue of the covert support unit. When are you going to inform the JSCI or act on this matter? Sir, I think we have reached a point where we must seriously consider the functions of the JSCI and its role in the oversight of you and your department.

There are four reasons why oversight of intelligence services needs to be done. Firstly, the electorate holds Parliament accountable for the work of all government agencies funded by public money, and the entire intelligence service falls under this mandate.

Secondly, due to the secrecy of information collected by the services, there is always the potential of violating individual human rights. In this regard, the role of the JSCI is of cardinal importance.

Thirdly, the information gathered could benefit or compromise, not only individuals, but also political parties and other institutions, if sinister forces within the services abuse their power. There is a growing concern that this is occurring.

Fourthly, individuals, organisations and institutions might not be aware that they are the subjects of serious investigations and therefore, such actions should be regulated and overseen.

Given the fact that the services are not subjected to the same level of oversight as other government agencies, the potential for malicious and illegal practices might exist, and hence we need proper oversight and control. The role of Parliament in overseeing the intelligence services is the following: legislation, controlling of finances, and, overseeing policies and activities.

The JSCI as a statutory committee has oversight partners such as the inspector-general, IG, and the Auditor-General, AG. After all the processes the JSCI has the responsibility of reporting to Parliament on or before 31 May annually, as stipulated in the Oversight Act.

However, this hardly ever happens due to various reasons. This necessitates a complete overall of the oversight model, in order to comply and to give the taxpayer the assurance that the intelligence services are acting within their mandated responsibilities, and are not abusing their clandestine provisions.

On the General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill ...

C/W: On the General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill...

C/W: In general, Intelligence Law Amendment Bill...

Mr D J STUBBE: On the General Intelligence Law Amendment Bill, during your briefing to the ad hoccommittee, you mentioned that the amendments made to the Bill were of a technical nature and no consultation with other government agencies was needed.

Afrikaans:

Ingevolge die Grondwet, artikel 209(2), moet die President 'n vrou of 'n man aanstel as hoof van elke intelligensiediens.

Artikel 210 handel oor bevoegdhede, funksies en monitering en ek verwys daarna:

Eerstens, die koördinering van alle intelligensiedienste, en tweedens, die burgerlike monitering van die bedrywighede van die dienste, deur 'n inspekteur wat deur die President as hoof van die Nasionale Uitvoerende Gesag aangestel word, en wat goedgekeur is deur 'n besluit van die Nasionale Vergadering, aangeneem met 'n ondersteunende stem van minstens twee derdes van die lede van die Nasionale Vergadering.

Die gemelde subartikel 210(a) en (b) verwys onderskeidelik na die funksies van die Nasionale Intelligensie Koördineringskomitee, Nikok, en die inspekteur-generaal. In die hersiening van die Wysigingswet word Nikok volkome onder u beheer geplaas en kom dit daarop neer dat u volkome kontrole het oor die aansteliing van die Hoof van Nikok, die produk, asook die begroting vanuit die groter Staatsveiligheidsagentskap begroting.

Die inspekteur-generaal wat veronderstel is om 'n objektiewe mening te lig oor hul bevindinge rakende oorsig oor die intelligensiediens, is ook volkome afhanklik van die goedgunstige oorweging vir fondse vir hul begroting vanuit die begroting van die Staatsveiligheidsagentskap.

Die bogenoemde twee gevalle is na my mening nie slegs tegnies van aard nie, maar verg 'n grondwetlike verandering.

Minister, u kan nooit volkome beheer neem oor entiteite wat veronderstel is om onafhanklik te funksioneer nie. Solank as wat hulle in u oë moet kyk vir hul begroting en vergoeding, sal daar altyd 'n vraagteken hang oor die uitslag van ondersoeke en bevindinge, en sal die vertroue van die inwoners van Suid-Afrika nie verkry word nie. Ek dank u. [Applous.]

Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF / TH//nvs(Eng&Afr)& src/ END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 387


Mr D J STUBBE

Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Chairperson, I am not a member of this committee, so I do have the advantage of looking at the intelligence industry from a distance and from the outside.

It is clear that our intelligence family is not in good shape. Last year I said that when you are dealing with intelligence, it is all about trust and that the abusive state security institutions is a serious challenge to the rule of law and the wellbeing of ordinary South Africans.

What is the state of affairs one year later? If you look at the media and various media reports the past weeks, and listen to commentary, it does not augur well for what is coming and for our leadership role we should play in Africa. You cannot ignore what is being said in the media and over the radio. You cannot keep quiet all the time and hope that it will go away.

We have seen inter alia that the Mail and Guardian sources are claiming that a series of new appointments and promotions is part of what they call the "Zumafication" of intelligence structures, aimed at ensuring that the President gets his second term in office.

The Presidential Protection Unit, they say, is fast becoming a Presidential spy unit with all the new recruits coming from the intelligence family. The question to be asked is, "Will this Presidential spy unit spy on the President's enemies in the run-up to the ANC conference?" Only time will tell. But nothing is new. It happened before.

Minister Tokyo Sexwale was clearly under the spotlight in the past, when he fell out of favour with former President Mbeki. Maybe that hon Minister can tell us whether this deployment of intelligence agents into the Presidential bodyguard unit, is a result of the fact that the President does not trust the existing intelligence agencies. A sad day if that is the case. Yesterday it was reported that documents taken in a robbery from hon Tokyo Sexwale's advocate's house was inter alia his affidavit, wherein he accused and I quote, "the crime intelligence boss, Richard Mdluli, of abusing state resources".

There was recently a series of events that needs clarification, otherwise the perception that something is wrong, becomes the truth. What were some of these events? The dropping of fraud and murder charges against, you know now who. He has been moved yesterday. I want to ask why he was not suspended. The problem is if you try to cut off a dog's tail, you do it once, not bit by bit.

We have seen shocking revelations of secret service slush funds, the tapping of phones without the necessary authority, the restructuring of the crime intelligence, the untimely letter by Richard Mdluli to the President offering his assistance, chopping and changing of the senior positions in the National Intelligence Agency. All of this coincides with the tabling of the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill, which will have the affect of centralising control over the security and intelligence services, exposing them even more to political abuse.

Business Day wrote in their editorial of 23 April and I quote:

It has become abundantly clear that the executive of government is engaged in the systematic attempt to use state's security and intelligence structures to silence opposition, both within and outside the ruling party.

It does not look healthy. Minister, it is up to you to put the record straight. I have quoted what is in the public domain, over the radio through commentators, in the media, for everyone to read. I am not a part of your committee. I have no wiki leaks or other information. This was in the public domain.

We should leave the spies out of politics. That is exactly what Matthews reports and the White Paper on Intelligence advocates. The White Paper was published a few years ago and I quote.

No intelligence organisation shall be allowed to carry out any operations or activities that are intended to undermine, promote or influence any South African political party or organisation at the expense of another, by means of any Acts or by means of disinformation.

This principle should be part of the new legislation.

It is us, Parliament, who must be the last custodian of protecting and restoring the trust in state security. Let's not falter when we start our job as legislators.

Even the ANC-dominated Parliamentary Portfolio Committee on Police is concerned about developments. It was once again clear in the debate of Police yesterday – a big division on the other side of this House. Cosatu has called for a judicial commission of inquiry into the allegations of corruption.

So hon Minister, what are you saying to the hon President if he asks you about all this negative reports on the intelligence family in the public domain? I hope it is not like the energetic owner of the hotel in the movie called, The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel. It is a fairly chaotic destination, but every time guests go to the front desk and complain, he replies, "Don't worry, everything will be all right at the end, and if it is not all right, it is not the end. I thank you.

Prof C T MSIMANG / Src / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 388


"Committee Room E249 Main",Unrevised Hansard,15 May 2012,"Take 388 [Committee Room E249 Main].doc"

Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF

Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Chair, the task of assuring a nation that its territory and citizenry are safe is among the most essential duties of government. Currently, in South Africa, this is even more the case, owing to external and internal threats to peace and stability.

North of our borders, a large chunk of the African continent is in a state of volatility, particularly in Eastern and Western Africa. Piracy in the Gulf of Somali is gathering momentum. Reports are that, in their southward thrust, pirates have reached the waters of our neighbours, Mozambique. Another external threat comes with the demand by China and other countries for the horns of our rhino. The onslaught on these helpless beasts is carried out in the most ruthless manner imaginable. Regrettably, even our rangers who should rise to the protection of these prized animals are colluding with foreign poachers to accelerate its demise.

The IFP is also concerned about the porous borders, which allow illegal entry of foreigners into our land, which results in the unfair competition for jobs which are primarily intended for local citizens. South African citizens view this as unfair usurpation of their jobs and are reacting in an offensive and violent way, which leads to sporadic xenophobic attacks. More influx of these immigrants can easily change the situation to a ticking time bomb which could explode at any time.

Turning now to internal threats, the IFP is extremely disturbed by media reports which reflect a state of instability in intelligence entities. News of senior directors resigning from Intelligence sends a negative message that there is no harmony in these entities. If this is the case, how can the citizenry feel safe? Other disconcerting news is that news fingering senior generals in crime intelligence as the ones who are perpetrating acts of corruption. If those that are charged with stamping out corruption in the country are themselves corrupt, there is no chance in hell that the war against corruption will ever be won in South Africa.

Finally, one must turn into the thorny issue of reactions to the Protection of State Information Bill. No matter how much the ruling party is convinced that the Bill is in the best interest of the nation when everybody else is up in arms against the Bill, then the ruling party should rethink its position. There are very few occasions in the history of our Parliament since 1994, when all the opposition parties speak with one voice and vote against the ANC, not only happen in Parliament but even outside Parliament where the majority of role players are dead against this Bill. A strong argument can be made that this time around, the ANC has served its own party interest rather than the interest of the majority which voted them into power. However, in view of the critical mandate of the Department of State Security and challenges it is facing, the IFP supports the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N B FIHLA

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 388 & 389


Prof C T MSIMANG

Mr N B FIHLA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister of the cluster, hon members, and the members of the intelligence community, firstly, I just want to clear something. Hon Koornhof is saying that he is in an advantageous position of criticising the committee because he is outside. My question is how he can be in an advantageous position when he is outside anything. The person who is advantaged is the one who is inside. What you are doing now is to swallow all the disinformation that you get from the media, and you come and attack. [Interjections.] Yes, that is full of disinformation.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Order!

Mr N B FIHLA: Hon members, in 2009, the President of the Republic of South Africa took a decision to review the civilian intelligence architects to enhance efficiency, effectiveness and co-ordination. This was followed by Presidential Proclamation No 59 of 2009, to bring together the National Intelligence Agency, NIA, SA Secret Service, Sass, as well as the SA National Academy of Intelligence, Sanai, the Electronic Communications Security, Comsec, and the Office of Interception Centre, IOC, to have a single entity called the State Security Agency, SSA. Chairperson, the amalgamation of these entities meant that a major restructuring process for the SSA was to follow, to allow the unbundling of the fragmented structures of the National Security Service Agencies and bodies which affected the efficiency due to overlapping mandates, unnecessary turf battles and wasteful duplications.

Chairperson, in his 2010 Budget Vote speech, the Minister of State Security, Dr S Cwele, announced the progress on restructuring by high level appointments and centralising command and control of the civilian intelligence community under one director-general with the assistance of the heads of domestic and foreign branches. He further announced the appointment of Deputy Director-General for Corporate Services, Prof Sandy Africa, to assist with the undisruptive and swift reorganisation of state security institutions. Further developments and appointments were announced in the 2011 Budget Vote, which were noted by the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI.

Chairperson, since the 2011 Budget Vote, a couple of changes at the services, over and above the current restructuring, took place. After the resignation of Prof Africa, the director-general, as well as both heads of domestic and foreign branches resigned from the SSA. Although the progress with the restructuring is noted, the pace at which it is unfolding raises great concern insofar as the process is causing instability amongst members of the community. The delay in finalising the restructuring process is creating negative effects and causing uncertainty and affecting the morale of members. Members of the community are still grappling with the transitional issues such as roles of new leadership and terminology like domestic and foreign branches, integration of IT systems and the finalisation of the outstanding legislation that will give effect to the new entity, SSA.

Chairperson, like everywhere else, restructuring causes uneasiness and an element of panic within an organisation as it affects employees' job security. In most instances, it leads to an industrial action by those affected. However, section 21(1) of the Intelligence Services Act, Act 65 of 2002, states that "no member of the intelligence services or the academy may strike or induce or conspire with any other member to strike". We must appreciate the environment in which the intelligence officers work. It is labour intensive, with often a shortage of critical skills needed to ensure efficient and effective response to national security members.

"Committee Room E249 Main", Unrevised Hansard,17 May 2012,"Take 389 [Committee Room E249 Main].doc"

"Committee Room E249 Main", Unrevised Hansard,10 May 2012,"[Take-333333389] [Committee Room E249 Main][NW-2-49][gs].doc"

The last thing we need is a community that resort to devious means by selling sensitive and secret information to those with ulterior motives to vent their frustrations. We do not want to see the leaking of information as we have observed happening recently in the crime intelligence environment. The Intelligence Services Council on Condition of Service, ISC, must effectively perform its functions as set out in section 22(3) of Act 65 of 2002. The staff council must be informed about the restructuring process as employees representing a structure established in terms of Regulation 11 of Chapter XVI of the Intelligence Service Regulations, 2003.

Therefore, this process of restructuring the civilian intelligence must not be seen to be regressing. Constant reassurance by the Minister that members' jobs are secure is important. Members should be updated timeously, through the relevant communication channels, on the status of the reorganisation.

In February 2011, the President, in his state of the nation address, emphasised the need for job creation. We hope that the restructuring in the intelligence services will not lead to job losses, but there will be room for job creation in the process. I support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N M KGANYAGO

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 389


Mr N B FIHLA

Mr N M KGANYAGO: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, we all know that the primary purpose of the Department of State Security is to protect the South African citizens. It has a constitutional obligation to discharge its duties in an impartial manner. Accordingly, the South African citizens expect it to serve all of them with dignity and respect.

Fortunately, the policy of segregation of the apartheid regime, which never protected the security needs of the majority of citizens in this country, is a thing of the past. Today, there is a fairly equitable distribution of the benefits of state security services. We, the majority citizens, are no longer regarded as a threat to state security. However, there are a number of issues that should receive the department's attention.

The UDM would like to request that the vetting of all intelligence civilians receives immediate and serious attention of the Minister of State Security. The purpose of this vetting is to build an efficient and effective intelligence service, capable of ensuring peace and security for all in South Africa.

We call on the Minister to carefully consider the public outcry on the Protection of State Information Bill. As we have said in many platforms before, the UDM is fully cognisant of the need for a reasonable level of state secrecy. However, we have made it clear, in many instances, that we demand the inclusion of a public interest defence clause in the Information Bill, because without it we run the risk of undoing the gains of our political freedom. We do not want to see this ending up like the floor-crossing legislation.

In conclusion, we are concerned about the reports and claims from various quarters that the resources of the department are used to fight party political battles. We call on everyone in the department to work together to build an impartial and nonpartisan state security department. The UDM supports the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs S T WILLIAMS-DE BRUYN

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 389 & 390


Mr N M KGANYAGO

Mrs S T WILLIAMS-DE BRUYN: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Members of Parliament, our guests and friends, in this centenary year of the true guardian of our people, we, again, call on all to work together with the ANC-led government to build a safer nation in a secure world. We continue to create effective, integrated and responsive intelligence machinery that can serve the Constitution and the government through the timeous provision of relevant, credible and reliable intelligence.

I would like to remind the hon members that, prior to the elections of the democratic government, security policy was formulated by a minority government. Its ability to detail what was national interest was, therefore, flawed. Moreover, since the minority government was faced with a struggle for liberation, this issue dominated the question of security and, consequently, the activities of the statutory instruments that served it.

The apartheid regime has emphasised military threats and the need for counteraction. Emphasis was placed, in the main, on the ability of the state to secure its physical survival, territorial integrity and independence, as well as its ability to maintain law and order within its boundaries. As a consequence, the classic function of intelligence was the identification of military, paramilitary threats or potential threats endangering these core interests, as well as the evaluation of enemy intentions and capabilities.

Our commitment to a constitutional democracy and the changing objective conditions enjoin us to follow a more comprehensive approach to which security is also endorsed by organisations like the UN and the AU. This approach is reflected in, among others, the Kampala Document of the OAU of 19 May 1991, where a process known as the Conference on Security, Stability, Development and Co-operation in Africa was set in motion.

The international security agenda has shifted to the full range of political, economic, military, social, religious, technological, ethnic and ethical factors that shape security issues around the world. But the main threat to the well-being of individuals and the interest of nations across the world do not primarily come from a neighbouring army, but from other internal and external challenges, such as economic collapse, overpopulation, mass migration, ethnic rivalry, political oppression, torture, terrorism, crime, disease, and so on. Hence security is defined less in military terms and more in the broader sense of freedom from the vulnerability of modern society.

Section 4 of the National Strategic Intelligence Act 39 of 1994, establishes the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, Nicoc, to consist of the co-ordinator for intelligence, director-general of the agency, director-general of the service, chief of the intelligence division of the National Defence Force, and the head of the intelligence division of the SA Police Service. This, in our view, is an important component which should not be undermined.

According to section 4(2) of the Act...

Mrs S T WILLIAMS-DE BRUYN: Chairperson, according to section 4(2) of the Act the function of the National Intelligence co-ordinating committee, NICOC,include inter alia co-ordination of intelligence supplied by the members of the national intelligence for the use of state and the Cabinet for the purpose of the detention and identification of any threat or potential threat to the national security of the public and the protection and protection and promotion of the national interest of the republic.

Co-ordination of intelligence in our view is extremely critical to protect national interest and secure our transformation agenda. In this regard, let me take a leaf from the words of the President at the 2009 Intelligence Service Day, when he said:

To realise progress on the five priorities, we need the state security services to develop a sustainable and measurable strategy to protect and support the government programmes from disruption and ensure an enduring security. The vehicle towards this is a national security strategy, which must define clear roles for each of the security agency in pursuing these priorities. The national security strategy must emphasise co-operation and integration of systems amongst the departments and components of government in the fight against crime and corruption.

I think it would be remiss of our hon members not to ask the vexed question, why so much unrest in our communities? Why is it that our government is disrupted from realising the priorities which the President alluded to? Why it is that corruption and other crimes of greed and avarice threatens to erode our democratic gains and foment social dissent and unrest within our people?

It is quite amazing to note that the nub of this issue was what concerned the President in 2009 when he continued:

One issue that must be prioritised is to look into the violence that has accompanied protests in communities. The right to peaceful and democratic protest is recognised by the Constitution and must be defended by our security agencies and all of us. However, what worries us is the element of violence and destruction of property. We need to know why our people would choose to be violent instead of pursuing the rightful demands in peaceful manner. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms S C N SITHOLE / Mpho/UNH (Checked) & mm / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 390 & 391


Mrs S T WILLIAMS-DE BRUYN

Ms S C N SITHOLE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Ministers present, hon members of the House, I am a deployee of the ANC. The reason for me to speak today is to support this budget, so I do support this budget. I want to talk to the hon director-general that I am looking at the money of the state. I am not interested in the party affiliation of the person. Everybody, whether or not you are the DA or ANC, must account. That is what I would like to see.

According to section 55 and 114 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Members of Parliament are expected to hold all state organs to account. We expect your department to assist us by conducting its business in line with the Constitution, the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and all the laws governing the intelligence and secrete service in our land. The PFMA allows you to manage, but it also holds you to account. We expect timeous reporting. We expect receive quarterly reports on time. Late preparation of financial statement is not helpful; it is a waste of time. Financial statements are management tools. Financial statements prepared on time assist you, hon director-general, to manage your department properly.

The committee will track the spending of these resources that we are passing today. We are going to except you to live up to your yesterday's undertaking at Africa House. We are giving you this budget, because we became convinced that you have got a strategic plan and that you are going to deploy the resources in accordance to that strategic plan, in compliance with all the financial management laws of our country.

It is necessary that you make sure that the chief financial officer is a person who understands finances, and qualified to do the work. It is important that the chief financial officer insures that internal controls are in place; that risk management plans are in place, and that supply chain management and procurement strategies are as prescribed by the PFMA and all intelligence laws of our country. We pass this budget believing that you will carefully go through all previous year's committee recommendations, Auditor-General's findings and recommendations, and correct and insure that there is no recurrence of those mistakes.

We believe that you will co-operate with the Auditor-General and give all required information to allow the auditing of your financial statements easy, and that we will get quarterly reports on time for us to do our oversight work. Stick to the legislation; those are the tools to help you to be accountable. Do not govern the country using newspaper reports, because they may not be accurate.

I remember very well, towards the World Cup, we had so many commentators, newspaper reports saying stadiums would not be built, and there would be no security. But the security intelligence community stood up to their work and they delivered the World Cup. The world came and saw the loveliness of South Africa and that is why tourism today is blossoming in South Africa. Well done intelligence community.

We come from a past where security police were used to terrorise the peoples of South Africa. We come from a past where newspapers never used to report. Those that did were banned. Journalists were thrown out of windows, sent into exile, and all that. [Interjections.] We come from that past, but today we have got an intelligence service that truly protects the people of South Africa. What we want, however, is that the monies of the state must be used in accordance with predetermined objectives, which we have gone through.

I would like to speak to the hon Koornhof. I do not know whether you want to be a member of the ANC, or not. You are so interested in Mangaung. Mangaung belongs to me, belongs to the branches of the ANC. [Interjections.] You will not be there. I will be there. We are going to vote Jacob Zuma back into office. I thank you.

Mr T W COETZEE / mm & Robyn/


UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Take: 391


MS S C N SITHOLE

Mr T W COETZEE: Mr Chairman, the hon Minister of State Security, other Ministers, Deputy Ministers present, hon Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, ladies and gentlemen, distinguished guests, and my beloved wife, Magda, in the public gallery, who I would like to acknowledge for her presence, support and love, the State Security budget is only quoted as an amount within the National Treasury Budget Vote 10, due to security reasons.

To comment on these figures is very difficult, as the utilisation of the budget is classified, and we, as members of the JSCI, have taken an oath of secrecy. This is the reason I only can debate on matters which are in the public domain, and I want to refer you to the Rapport of 8 April:

Afrikaans:

'n Veiligheidsmuur vir sy huis is moontlik die rede waarom mnr Nathi Mthethwa, polisieminister, so vasbeslote is om die Valke se ondersoek na die misdaadintelligensie-eenheid se noodfonds in die kiem te smoor. City Press, susterskoerant van Rapport, berig die Valke was besig met 'n ondersoek na verdoemende bewerings dat bykans R200 000 se verbeterings aan Mthethwa se huis gespandeer is uit die noodfonds.

Die Rapport berig verder van 'n luukse motor waarmee die Minister van Polisie rondgery het, wat ook uit die geheime fonds gefonds is. Dit gaan nie oor of die Minister van Polisie bewus was van waar die fondse vandaan kom nie. Dit gaan oor die begunsel dat geld uit die geheime fonds, wat wanbestuur is, geneem is, en daar moet verantwoording gedoen word aan die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor Intelligensie in die verband.

English:

The Minister of State Security said in his budget speech of 1 July 2009, "I will unfailingly ensure that the power and the public funds entrusted to us are used responsibly."

In the light of the above, the seriousness of the matter, and because if fraud can happen in one intelligence agent, it can also happen in the others, I therefore challenge the Minister to call on the Auditor-General to table a full report to the JSCI over the last five years on the spending of all secret funds within the intelligence domain, within three weeks from today.

With reference to this instance, I would like to refer the hon Minister to paragraph 3(a)(iv) of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act 40 of 1994, as amended, and to what the hon Burgess, Chairperson of the JSCI, said during his budget speech on 1 July 2009:

The JSCI has an oversight function over the new Minister of State Security and the agencies for which the hon Minister is responsible. The JSCI has an oversight over Crime Intelligence, Defence Intelligence, which do not, however, fall under the jurisdiction of the Minister.

On the above-mentioned date in 2009, I said:

The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence is a creation of the election representatives of the people to ensure that our Intelligence Service can enjoy the trust of all South Africans.

Afrikaans:

Besef u, Minister, wat die wanbestuur van geheime fondse aan die gemeenskap doen, en veral aan die rekonsiliasieproses van ons land? Ek glo nie dit kan gemeet word in sekere terme nie.

Die keuring van personeel binne en buite die intelligensiedomein is nog 'n groot bedreiging vir die land se veiligheid. Die agb Minister het op 1 Julie 2009 gesê:

English:

We will continue to ensure the full implementation of all elements of our vetting strategy, which contributes to enabling government to expose and root out criminals from the Public Service. In particular, we will ensure that all those seeking employment are subject to appropriate screening prior to entry.

That is questionable, Minister.

We shall conduct regular screening of those entrusted with state resources.

On 2 June 2011, the Minister said, "We also seek to deal with the backlog of vetting, which is a critical aspect of the counter-intelligence mandate in the next three years." We have been hearing this for the last four years. It is clear that no service delivery, as far as vetting is concerned, is taking place within the department. My statement is confirmed, in that the Head of Crime Intelligence, Gen Richard Mdluli, had almost employed all his family in his department. The City Press of 15 April stated:

Spy boss keeps it in the family. Several of Mdluli's relatives were appointed to police cybercrime unit.

I have mentioned how important that division is.

Afrikaans:

Die agb Minister dryf die Wet op die Beskerming van Inligting met soveel passie, maar intelligensiepersoneel sit in die diens sonder dat hulle behoorlik gekeur is. Hoe wil die Minister geloofwaardigheid behou as ongekeurde personeel in alle range geklassifiseerde inligting moet beskerm? Hoe wil die Minister dit doen?

English:

The hon Minister must come and explain, in detail, the real reasons why the three in the State Security Agency, SSA's top management, namely the Director-General of the SSA, and the Heads of Domestic and External Components, Mr Njenje and the Ambassador Mo Shaik, respectively, have left the Intelligence Services. He must not come and try to justify the reasons why they should have left. We want the reasons why they have left.

I have questioned the Minister's commitment of undertaking to complete the restructuring of the Department of State Security into the SSA swiftly and without disruption. His relationship with the JSCI is also an ongoing concern. Last year, when I made the statement that his relationship with the JSCI is a worrying factor, he denied it.

However, Minister, when did you last attend a meeting of the JSCI? I will tell you, sir – last year, in November ... [Interjections.] ... when you committed yourself to workshop the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill with the JSCI. To date, this has not yet taken place.

As I said earlier, the JSCI also has oversight functions over you, but we never see you. When we do, you only inform us on matters, like you have done with the presidential proclamation of the name change and restructuring of your department. The JSCI is supposed to be included in all processes and not just to be informed.

There are two other matters of concern, which have also been touched on this afternoon. The Minister has committed himself to a report-back on an investigation into the insurance matter, and also on the very important, worrying matter of the Border Management Agency. What is going on on our borders?

I want to conclude by asking the Minister of State Security if he believes that he is still committed to the task of responsibility to the Department of State Security, because I do not believe so. [Time expired.]

Mr J J MAAKE / /Robyn/ / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 392 & 393


"Committee Room E249 Main",Unrevised Hansard,22 May 2012,"Take 392 [Committee Room E249 Main].doc"

Mr T W COETZEE

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Can I ask the previous speaker to switch off the microphone. Thank you. You may continue, hon member.

Mr J J MAAKE: Chairperson, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, members of the intelligence community, and hon members, it is a general norm that a defence force in any country of the world represents or rather has, as its purpose, the defence of the ruling class. It is not for me to say who the ruling class is in South Africa. I can but talk with authority of the ruling party in South Africa, which is the ANC, my party.

We in South Africa are in a very unique situation in that our Defence Force is without doubt not the defence force of the ruling party, but of the country's citizens as a whole, without any discrimination. The opposition definitely agrees with me in this regard.

Having said the above, let us now look at the Defence Intelligence within the South African National Defence Force. The Defence Intelligence, DI, draws its mandate from the Defence Act, Act 42 of 2002, section 34(a) and (b) read in conjunction with the National Strategic Intelligence Act, Act 39 of 1994, section 4. The Defence Intelligence must gather, correlate and use strategic intelligence for the purpose of ensuring national security, determination and formulation of defence strategy and policy, as well as assisting in the co-ordination of foreign military assistance.

It must use operational and counterintelligence for purposes of assisting in the execution of operations in line with the defence strategy. It must conduct and institute counterintelligence measures activities within the Ministry of Defence and the Armaments Development and Production Corporation, for example, by supporting naval security, supporting deployments at the border line, etc.

The core objective of Defence Intelligence is to provide intelligence, counterintelligence and a defence foreign relations capability and service. The other objective is to ultimately position itself to supply comprehensive cutting edge defence intelligence at both strategic and operational levels, to afford decision-makers at all levels of command the fullest possible understanding of threats and opportunities.

South Africa is a unique country. It is unique because, and only because, it is governed by a mature party, a party that has distinguished itself in the war for liberation, a movement that is known for its diplomacy, an organisation that is respected the world over for its foresight and its respect for democracy and human rights, and an organisation that is the oldest in Africa.

Whilst the ANC has been fighting for democracy since its inception, the opposition parties only started fighting for democracy in 1994. [Applause.] Let them prove me wrong. Was it because they were stupid that they couldn't see that there were some people, the majority of the indigenous population, who were denied democracy, or were they happy about the status quo? It therefore means that, if it were not for the relentless fight by the ANC, they would be still in the dark about democracy. [Applause.] The ANC liberated them from this stupidity. [Applause.] Are they therefore not naive and hypocritical to try and teach us about democracy and human rights – we, who have been on the receiving side of their past policies?

I think they need to be reminded. I want to go to the furthest extreme of trying to remind them, and it might border on absurdity. One could suggest that, one day, on the Day of Reconciliation – which, coincidentally, is my birthday – in order that we should never, ever forget, we may need to relive what used to happen. That is, we could theatrically call each other by the names we used to. [Laughter.] We could have separate amenities, hospitals and restaurants. We could move out of this Parliament building and leave them alone, and maybe attack Mozambique. [Laughter.] Maybe the horror of what used to happen might wake some of them up.

Although absurd in the extreme, this might teach us the heavy load of responsibility that we all have to make in order to make South Africa work because it tends to be the previously oppressed who are expected to make reconciliation work.

Whilst previously its function – that is, the Defence Intelligence – was to plan the harassment, maiming and killing of our brothers and sisters in Africa and the world over, the whole of its vision, mission and objectives has changed and is now the direct opposite of what it was before. The Defence Intelligence is used for defensive purposes. It is used for humanitarian purposes. It is used to gather intelligence information for the sake of defence policy formulation.

One must know how other countries are armed in order to know the design, quantity and quality that one's army must develop or maintain. An army doesn't have sophisticated armoury in order to attack other countries, but as a deterrent. That is, if a country wants to attack you, they must think twice.

There is now oversight over what happens in our Defence Intelligence established according to the Constitution, the supreme law of the land. Our Defence Force has never attacked any neighbouring country. That one time they entered Lesotho we had an Acting President who was not an ANC member! [Laughter.] Not that there was anything wrong with that; I just wanted everyone to note that. [Laughter.]

With the limited financial resources the Defence Intelligence still manages to execute an effective plan such as providing representation in countries where the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, needs to advance its interests through its defence attaché. The DI forms the front line in defence diplomacy efforts. The DI is represented in countries across the Southern African Development Community, SADC, Africa, the Middle East and the rest of the world.

I always stand here and teach the opposition, especially the DA. If you were to ask yourselves... if I could give you an example... your marketing strategy is like that of a person who advertises and sells dog food. During the very first month they make millions but, during the second month, nobody buys their dog food and the company goes under. The problem is that they didn't ask the dogs! The dogs didn't like the food! [Applause.] And if you do that, you will never sustain whatever you say.

If you were to check what hon...

I like what the hon Msimang said. He simply said what is said in the papers. If we were to take what is in the papers, we would take this and that decisions. What hon Koornhof of Cope said is what always surprises me. They always talk about our voters as the ANC. They are saying we mislead our voters. Why they don't talk about their voters and leave our alone? The ANC supports the Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (Dr S C Cwele )/MS//nvs & VM / END OF TAKE

UNREVISED HANSARD

EPC COMMITTEE ROOM E249

Thursday, 10 May 2012 Takes: 393 & 394


Mr J J MAAKE

The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY (Dr S C Cwele): Thank you, your Excellency the House Chairperson. Let me thank all the members for their inputs and their support on this Budget Vote. When I was saying happy birthday to "intando yeningi" [democracy], I also forgot to say happy birthday to Minister Lindiwe Sisulu who also worked previously to lead this organisation. Happy birthday, Lindi. She did apologise and we will see her later when we meet in the "afterparty". [Laughter.] Let me also thank hon Burgess, the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on State Security, for the very kind words to our officers – very hardworking and loyal officers – because it is very rare that they actually get recognised publicly for the work they are committed to in securing our nation. Once again, thank you very much. [Applause.]

I have noted your concern about what you call traitors and people who are not patriots, but I know all the members here are very patriotic that is why they are called honourables. Honestly, I hope that through your actions and missions, you will not condone the activity which promotes traitors, including your consideration of the legislation.

To the hon members of the DA, Mr D J Stubbe, who is very well vest with matters pertaining to intelligence, we have noted his input and concern about my busy international schedule and sometimes which caused me to be absent in some meeting of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, but I am present in some of them and he knows I avail myself when I am invited. But let me just stress to my colleagues that my absent basically is due to work we are doing in Africa and it is not a holiday, but it is the hard work which is part of the programme of action of this government to ensure a better Africa and a safer world. So, it is part of that work where we ensure that we reduce the conflicts because we know that when there are conflicts in Africa, we will get an influx into our country as the result. So, we have to prevent those conflicts and contribute to the creation of the safer Africa.

The issue of a progress reports in the committee and in particular, the fire which happen in Durban – I understand that the Director-General did commit to the JSCI that they will come back on this matter within a month, including those break-ins which happen in some of our offices - is also raised by other members of the committee. But in short, regarding the fire in Durban, we have the preliminary report because we reported to the JSCI that the investigations are also conducted by the fire department of Durban Metro and the police. All indications indicate that it was an electrical fault. It was not foul play in this activity, but I will send a team from the department to give a comprehensive report to the JSCI.

He also reminded us that we reported previously on the investigation we were doing in some of the agencies, particularly the Group Life Scheme. If you remember well, ours was tasked to do the investigation on the extent of participation of our members in that corruption scheme. The former Director-General, Amb M J Maqetuka, did that investigation and could not find any substantial things that warrant action beyond just warnings to our members. The cast of the matter is that the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, and the police are continuing those investigations. I don't think we should therefore interfere with the process of investigation and say let them rush to court because this fraud cases are of quite complicated, people take time to plan them. When you go to court you must produce evidence and proper evidence so that you can have successful prosecution.

I really sympathise with the hon Koornhof and I know him as a very kind hon member. I understand fully that he relies mainly on the media because he is not participating in the oversight committee. I will also say as the intelligence community we don't rely on media, but we rely on facts and true intelligence – verified intelligence when taking actions because most of the things which are reported in the media are far from any truth on what is the state of affairs in our own environment. But let me also remind the hon member because it is fair to raise such concerns and asking for sympathies that some members are not participating – Cope is allowed to participate in the JSCI. The real problem is that Cope is still fighting. Mr Shilowa was appointed as the member and there have not been able to replace Shilowa in the JSCI. So, if you want the intelligence community to go and assist to resolve this matter; unfortunately, we can't because we don't participate in such political parties and political activities.

A number of hon members have raised matters pertaining to the legislation which is before the committees of Parliament. The first one being the Protection of State Information Bill, not the secrecy bill; it is a Protection of the State Information Bill, which is currently in front of the NCOP. Some members are still crying for the public that it is interest defence clause. They are just saying this basically. Let's have this because the opposition is saying so; despite that the majority of South African and the overwhelming number of members of the National Assembly are disagreeing with them in this matter.

I would really like to get into this because the court is in Parliament not in the Ministry anymore. We have explained our position as the department and the Ministry and we still remain saying that we are not opposing any amendments which will improve the effectiveness and the constitutionality of the Bill. But we are totally against any measures which will make the Bill unworkable and useless and which will make the work of foreign spies and espionage peddlers thrive in South Africa. But we remain quite open to any progressive suggestions to improve these other aspects of the Bill.

I won't comment on the General Laws Intelligence Amendment Bill, others really are playing very cheap party political game on this matter. My understanding on this matter is under the National Assembly. We have explained ourselves on several occasions to the committee and now the committee is in the process of considering the Bill. If you want us to go back and explain further to the committee, we will do so as well as we will debate the Bill in the House.

A number of members have touched on this thing that we should ensure that our intelligence officers are not partisans and we don't use the intelligence for party political processes. I fully agree with you 100% in this regard.

Maybe to illustrate this fact, I would like to quote for the members what President Zuma said exactly one month ago, when he was addressing all these intelligence officers in our headquarters, I quote:

The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa enjoins the state security agencies to assist government efforts of ensuring that, South Africans as individuals and as a nation, live as equals in peace and harmony and are free from fear and want ...

As Mr Burgess has quoted.

The President continues to say:

Your task is therefore a critical one as it is not about serving narrow personal or partisan interests, but those of the entire nation. The Constitution of the Republic is also very explicit with regards to the mandate of our security services.

It states that the security services must act, teach and require their members to act, in accordance with the Constitution and the law, including customary international law and international agreements binding on the Republic.

"Committee Room E249 Main",Unrevised Hansard,10 May 2012,"[Take-333333394] [Committee Room E249 Main][NW-2-49][gs].doc"

The Constitution also states explicitly that no member of any security service may obey a manifestly illegal order.

In addition, the security services are barred from undertaking any work that may prejudice a legitimate political party or which promotes, in a partisan manner, any interest of a political party.

Our progressive Constitution also directs that there be oversight to ensure transparency and accountability. Multi-party parliamentary committees have oversight of all security services in a manner determined by national legislation or the rules and orders of Parliament.

There are enough checks and balances to ensure that in undertaking the necessary work of protecting national security and making the population feel and be safe, we uphold the Constitution at all times.

These are the words of President Zuma when addressing us at the National Intelligence Service Day. Thank you very much, House Chairperson. We really plead for the support of our Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 16:02.

VM/ END OF TAKE


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