Hansard: Approppriation Bill: Debate on Vote No 25+23 – Police
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 08 May 2012
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 444
START OF DAY
WEDNESDAY, 9 MAY 2012-05-10
PROCEEDINGS OF THE EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE-OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
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Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 14:02.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The MINISTER OF POLICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 444
START OF DAY
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 25 – Police, including Vote No 23 – Independent Police Investigative Directorate:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson; Deputy Minister of Police, Ms M M Sotyu, Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police, Ms S Chikunga, Acting National Commissioner of Police, Lieutenant-General N Mkhwanazi, SAPS senior management present, hon Members of Parliament, strategic partners of SAPS in the fight against crime, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, the most defining feature of the South African democratic state is that it champions the aspirations of the law-abiding citizens. Its primary task is to work for the realisation of safety and a secured environment for all, particularly women, children, the disabled and the elderly.
Policing is a heavy responsibly. There are many times when they are expected to carry the "sins of the entire world". To illustrate this observation, when citizens and their public representatives disagree on whatever matter pertaining to service delivery, for instance, one or both parties call on the police to intervene. In most cases, these servants end up at the centre of the dispute, engaged in running battles with communities and taking the blame for the sins they did not commit.
Regardless of these challenges, SAPS continues to score positively in the fight against crime as contained in the crime statistics in 2011-12. The SAPS is supported by other independent role-players. Key to all this has been the strategic partnerships we cemented with different institutions, civic organisations and the broader public.
We would further like to thank those who participated and continue to support our efforts in highlighting the plight of the police who get injured, attacked and die on duty.
We have dubbed this year the year of the detective, with a focus on a 10-point priority deliverables.We will deliberate comprehensively on this theme later in the remarks. However, we would like to firstly address some of the recent issues which have been topical in the public domain.
Firstly, I want to deal with allegations against senior management of SAPS. We have observed, disturbingly so, the events over the past few months which are attributed to the senior management of SAPS.
One, there have been allegations of rendition against the Hawks in Gauteng. There have been allegations surrounding the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations, DPCI, in relation to Zimbabwean nationals. The matter was brought to my attention and I immediately sought clarity from the head on the Hawks who responded. Subsequently, the Civilian Secretariat for Police is almost done with a preliminary report on this matter.
Two, there have been allegations on murders and tortures by the members of the DPCI or Hawks team in Cato Manor, KwaZulu-Natal. Iwould also like to utilise this occasion to allude to another matter which had been in the public domain, with allegations around the Hawks team in Cato Manor, KwaZulu-Natal. Any allegation, on any day surrounding murders and torture by police officers is a matter that cannot be ignored. Hence, we had tasked those who police the police, that is the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, together with the team from DPCI National Office to investigate the allegations.
We further make a call to some political commentators, including political parties and the media to be objective as they exercise their oversight function on the SAPS. You cannot raise issues around certain SAPS members but try to excuse some when it suits you. Therefore, we treat this matter and allegations as extremely serious.
Three, there have been allegations on crime intelligence and Lieutenant General Richard Mdluli, in particular. With allegations levelled against Lieutenant-General Mdluli, we want to say that processes, which are currently before our criminal justice system, would have to be observed by all to their logical conclusions.
Four, the current investigations into the crime intelligence division.I have further noted the recent utterances, public discussions and at times misrepresentation and misunderstanding of SAPS processes by some in society, particularly in relation to one of our crucial divisions in the fight against crime, the crime intelligence.
Allegations were levelled against the division's head, Lieutenant General Mdluli. The allegation relates to the mismanagement of the secret fund and nepotism and others. The Inspector-General of Intelligence has the legal mandate of oversight with regard to the financial management of crime intelligence.
As part of her mandate, she is further able to look into any other issue that may arise in the course of this investigation. And contrary to what the media is saying that this investigation is still in process. We are not going to be subjected to any paralegal process, be it in the media or elsewhere.
Five, the public spats by senior management of SAPS.There have been unfortunate public accusations and counteraccusations within the management of SAPS. What seems to have sparked this is a widely reported letter, which Lieutenant General Mdluli is reported to have written to amongst others, the Minister of Police.
This letter seems to have political connotations and has caused tension within the management of SAPS. It alludes to some conspiracy theory of some in the management ganging up against him.
I have instituted a team, led by the State Law Adviser to investigate such allegations because they are as serious as to suggest the meddling of policing function in politics.
Whilst this probe is underway, we have in consultation with the Acting National Police Commissioner, decided that Lieutenant-General Mdluli should be shifted from his current position with effect today, as the Head of Crime Intelligence and moved to another division, as determined by the Acting National Police Commissioner. [Applause.]
To this end, Lieutenant-General Mdluli has been informed of the decision and has pledged his support to the process. We shall therefore allow and observe this process to be carried thorough without any undue interference.
I am deliberately and purposefully reiterating the clarity of process on all these current cases and investigations, because over a period of time, there had been some misrepresentation, false allegations and to a certain extent, genuine concerns about the "goings on" within SAPS. We have resisted the temptation and we shall stick to our principles of respect for all legal processes of the land.
Getting back to what I said we will deal with is 2012, "The Year of the Detective" with a focus on the 10-point priority deliverables.On the occasion of this Budget Vote in this very august House last year, we highlighted that we must strengthen institutions and practices of popular participation. We said, and I quote:
Our approach must in practice, be premised on the people-centred and people-driven process of transformation. All of society must take part in this national effort, and effective systems of interaction with all social partners must be established.
We purposefully narrowed our focus for this fiscal year on 10 points because we not only believe they are achievable, but because they must be achieved. We need to place significant focus on and direct our energies in line with government's five key priorities. We must build on the progress we have attained while we consolidate the lessons learnt for the safety of our citizens.
This first of those 10 points is the transformation of the SAPS. On this matter we have noticed some progress in some of the areas, which were untransformed but now are transformed. An example is theforensic science laboratory. From the point of race and gender, we will continue with all other aspects of SAPS to ensure that we transform them.
Another matter is the enhancing of the criminal justice system. Here we are referring mostly to ICT. We have come up with a twin-pronged approach on this matter. We first sought to address challenges relating to what has been widely reported as corruption and mismanagement in this area.
We are emphasising it because the budget of SAPS, by and large, the bigger chunk, goes into this area. We have noted that we have not necessarily arrived at the point where we say that we get value for money out of this. Therefore, on that part, I have instructed the Hawks to go deep into this area and ensure that what we get from Parliament is utilised wisely.
We have appointed a new divisional head in this area, which has always been a challenge. We also want to assure you that, going forward, we have said they have to come up with a strategy which will turn things around here within a month, so that we are able to move from this point.
The next priority is the building of new police stations. With the leases and what has been happening within the police around such matters, we together with the Minister of Public Works, have come together and got both our managements working collectively to ensure that at the end of the day, that which is a demand out there, which is the need for people to access service in their backyards where they live, is actually achieved. That is why we have emphasized that this priority of building police stations is a priority which needs to be achieved, so that those who have not benefitted from such service do benefit.
The next area, which we were confronted with and started to address sometime last year, is how to police public protests. We have secured new equipment which speaks to just that, to ensure that accusations about police brutality are being addressed. To that extend, I want to urge the public that while the police continue to approach the public protest and such public functions in a humane manner, we also expect the same from the public.
We have a situation in Heidelberg in Gauteng, for instance. Police have been pursuing this part, which we said is correct to pursue, but with difficulty because some of the people in the community have been very violent. We want people to bear with the police that when we say they must approach people humanely, we speak to everyone. Nobody has a licence to destroy somebody else's property.
Another priority is the issue of the strengthening the detectives and crime intelligence, in particular. These are the areas by and large, which helped with the prevention of crime because whilst we have a duty to combat crime, we equally have a bigger responsibility to prevent crime from happening. To that extend, there has been some work done, together with crime intelligence and the DPCI, the Hawks.
As part of our concerted drive on specialised investigations, particularly in tackling commercial crimes, the DPCI arrested 8 309 individuals and secured 5 561 convictions. When it comes to organised crime, they further arrested 2 820 and secured 884 convictions. [Applause.]
The Anticorruption Task Team, ACTT, was specifically established to investigate public sector corruption in terms of Output 5 of the government delivery agreement. During the corresponding period the ACTT made significant successes by arresting 38 suspects for fraud and corruption amounting to R212 million and seized assets totalling R150 million.
One of the disturbing criminal acts into the past year has been rhino poaching, wherein this year alone, over 200 rhinos were killed. As such, this has been declared an operational priority by the Department of Police. A national task team has been established at the DPCI to specifically address this matter. And again government at all levels has been engaging, particularly our counterparts in countries of East Asia to enhance law enforcement agencies. We had a meeting with my counterpart in Vietnam in October last year, particularly on this matter and we got assurance and commitment to co-operate and work together.
On Women, children and people with disability, having re-established the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offenses, FCS, unit, we have gone around the country, interacting with men and women who are working in this area. We have also raised the matter of scarce skills because we believe that people, who work in this area, work in a very specialised area and they need all the support from government and everybody else.
Crime against women and children is a priority for the SAPS. Therefore, the FCS units that have been reintroduced in all 176 SAPS clusters in all nine provinces, is starting to work effectively. There is currently 2 155 detectives placed at these units and they are issued with 1 276 vehicles. Previously, the FCS units consisted of only 1 864 detectives.
An additional amount of R49,5 million was provided to all provinces to capacitate the FCS units with resources. From April 2011 to January 2012, the FCS units have achieved over 363 life sentences, with a conviction rate of 73% for crimes against women above 18 years old and 70% for crimes against children under 18 years old. [Applause.]
A total of 17 314 out of 21 000 detectives are trained in detective related courses. A further 2 161 detectives will be trained on the basic detective course during the 2012-13 financial year. A total of 493 detectives that had been transferred to other components and divisions within SAPS in the past, have been placed back in the detective services environment. Six courses for training of detective commanders, in which 346 commanders were trained, were presented during the 2011-12 financial year.
The next one is on skills-focused recruitment, as opposed to volume-based recruitment.Over the last year we have made certain changes in our approach to recruitment and our official standards have been benched marked against other countries and have compared favourably. However, we must now seriously look at how our recruitment is actually being carried out on the ground.
We have also prioritised the area of the forensic science laboratory. Following the 66% reduction in backlogs recorded in forensic services in the 2010-11 financial year, increased commitment and effort resulted in a further 30% reduction in 2011-12, despite a 67% escalation in the workload, which increased from 66 375 in 2011 to 111 068 in 2011-12.
This further reduction is commendable, especially in view of the production time lost as a result of increased emphasis on the development of individual performance. The department will continue to grow forensic capacity in response to the expected escalation in exhibits received.
In addition to the awareness drives to enhance current services offered by the forensic services, more crime scene management service stations have been established to reach especially the rural communities, where such services were difficult to reach previously. The department is intensifying its efforts to reach even more communities in this new financial year.
The next area of focus would be the review of the White Paper on Safety and Security. During the last financial year we made concerted efforts to strengthen civilian oversight of the police through the reform of the formerly Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, now known as the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, and Civilian Secretariat for Police.
Now that these reforms have been processed, the task will not only be on ensuring delivery of this oversight bodies but also the review of the White Paper for Safety and Security and subsequent overhaul of the SAPS Act.
During the 2011-12 financial year the Civilian Secretariat for Police Bill was passed into an Act and in December 2011 the Act was put into operation by the President of the Republic of South Africa.
Lastly, for this financial year, the focus must be on strengthening oversight on police. While we have committed ourselves to actively combat crime, including serious and violent crime, by being tougher on criminals and organised syndicates, we have however always emphasised that this tough stance on crime must be balanced by our philosophy that community policing must be based and entrench on a human right culture, and be community-orientated and sensitive.
That is why we are pleased with the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act 1 of 2011, which takes the Ipid out of the SAPS. Thus, from 1 April 2012 their independence from the police will be entrenched.
The Ipid Act focuses the investigative mandate of the directorate to the specified serious matters, which include any deaths in police custody and deaths as a result of police actions, and any complaint related to the discharge of an official firearm by any police officer.
We will introduce the Private Security Regulatory Authority, PSIRA, Bill where we are looking at the regulation and strengthening of this area. What we are saying here is, while we have to forge links and work with the private security, at the same time, we must ensure that this area is not infiltrated by criminals.
Lastly, we want to announce that we are putting in place a commission which will deal with the area relating to firearms, particularly within the dealers of firearms, but which will also strengthen corporate governance in the handling of firearms within the police itself.
I want to declare that this, the year of the detectives, should be the year where everybody will roll up their sleeves and get the conviction rate raised. Thank you. [Applause.]
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, op 'n punt van orde: Ek wou nie die agb Minister onderbreek nie. Mag ek verneem hoekom daar nie vertaaldienste beskikbaar is in hierdie Huis nie. Ek het al gister hierdie saak geopper en toe is daar onderneem dat die tegniese span daarna sal kyk. Ek verneem graag hoekom daar nie vertaaldienste is nie.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Agb lid, ons sal vasstel wat die probleem is en dan sal ek 'n aankondiging maak.
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA / src/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 445 & 446
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,09 May 2012,"[Take-333333457] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][gs].doc"
THE MINISTER OR POLICE"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,09 May 2012,"[Take-333333445] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][gs].doc"
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Hon Chairperson, members of Cabinet, Minister and Deputy Minister of police, Members of Parliament, acting national commissioner and SAPS management, invited guests and comrades, and ladies and gentlemen, section 205 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa states that the object of SAPS is to prevent, combat and investigate crime; protect the inhabitants of the Republic; maintain public order; and to uphold and enforce law.
The question then is if the police members are able to fulfil this constitutional mandate, the factual answer is, yes they are, and I want to provide just few and clear examples of achievements. The steady decline of serious crimes is a clear and important proof. The number of SAPS members, also, has increased tremendously from just above 116000 in 2001-02 to above 193 000 in 2011, March 31.
Chairperson, most police stations have community policing forums which are functioning well, despite some teething challenges. This means that we have managed to make the community to work with our police. In areas and police stations where sector policing has been properly implemented, sector managers work even more closely, with these sector communities.
We have executive members who also go to communities to listen to their joys, frustrations and suggestions. We have policing policies that are informed by what most of the people of South Africa think should be done. Chairperson, the portfolio committee has visited provinces and we have seen the state of the art police stations in townships and sometimes in the rural areas. Esikhawini, Ezakheni and KwaMa-shu police stations, in KwaZulu-Natal are just few examples of such state of the art stations.
Today we are debating a budget of R6,4 billion and can I remind all South African that just in 2005-06, while we had 148 970 policemen, the budget was only R28,4 million. I have just mentioned a few but very important achievements, which sometimes we seriously take for granted. We come from far and through the years we have achieved a police service that people see as theirs, ofcourse with challenges as we expect, but we have achieved so much.
Before I say something more about our budget, let me also mention this about a matter that is in the public domain. We are told that Gen Mdluli is being considered for the appointment as national commissioner in the event that Gen Bheki Cele does not come back. Chairperson, firstly, nobody knows as to what the outcome of the enquiries will be in Gen Bheki Cele's investigations.
Secondly, South Africa has a national commissioner, who is Gen Bheki Cele and because of his suspension, South Africa has an acting national commissioner, who is Gen Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. What this simply means is that, there is no vacancy in the position of the national commissioner; so clearly, nobody is headhunting a national commissioner. Let me state clearly to all south Africans out there that, under the circumstances there is no vacancy in the position of the national commissioner and therefore Gen Mdluli is not been considered for the national commissioner's position.
But say in future, a vacancy was to exist, what makes anyone to even speculate that the President will appoint Gen Mdluli? There is absolutely no basis for this speculation. I think that if people want to talk or raise concerns about allegations around Gen Mdluli, let them do so, but for them to say he is being considered for the national commissioner's position, equals a deliberate misled the nation.
Regarding other issues and allegations against Gen Mdluli, I want to put it on record that, the portfolio committee on police did receive a briefing on the matter, from acting national commissioner, on the 17th of April 2012. Members of the portfolio committee were given an opportunity to ask questions, which the acting national commissioner responded to clearly.
Following the briefing, members of the portfolio committee, except DA to be precise, told the acting national commissioner that they will be supporting him all the way: in the investigation of the Carto Manor Unit, dubbed Death Squad; KwaZulu-Natal's head of the Hawks; and Gen Mdluli, and we meant and mean that. We furthermore have seriously taken note of the alleged tension amongst senior managers in SAPS, as well as apparent negative impact these matters might have on the service as a whole.
In this regard, we want to reiterate our position, which I announced on May, Monday the 7th, that we do not believe that inviting Gen Mdluli to appear before the portfolio committee will serve any purpose, for the reasons that we clearly outlined, yet it is in the interest of the committee to be assured that no damage is caused by these matters. We are appreciating the decisions that the Minister has just announced. We will look into the matter and decide our way forward.
Chairperson, the ANC will support the Budget Vote for the department of police and the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. In supporting these Budget Votes, let me take this opportunity to once more remind all of us about what the President, his Excellency, the hon Zuma, said on the 29thSeptember 2009, in Pretoria when he met with all station commanders from 1117 police station, I quote:
It is not business as usual for public servants who are at the cold face of service delivery. All management must work harder, non-performance should result in action been taken against management and police stations must be the hope of communities.
Our support for these Budget Votes is informed by the fact that police stations need to continue to provide services to communities and on being the hopes of communities. Chairperson, the Minister, hon Nathi Mthethwa, has just announced that, 2012-13 financial year is the year for the detectives. Let me remind all of us that the programme detective had a budget of R13,1 billion. Under the programme, Detectives Services, I just want to talk about issues to the forensic services SAPS programme which has a budget of R1,8 billion.
The department told us that they are at 50% towards meeting the requirements for the accreditation of forensic laboratories. Even though we understand that accreditation is not a legal requirement, according to the act and it is a costly exercise, we strongly feel that we must work harder to obtain it. It is in this spirit, that we think that the last 850 analysts need to be employed this year, as of yesterday, by the department.
Minister, Marshal System was dismantled without following proper procedures. Since January 2010, we have been raising this matter. Commissioner Du Toit has since resigned. We are told that commissioner Joubert was dismissed. Minister, we think that this is not enough; there is more serious corruption into this matter. In South Africa, some people who commit serious corruption are allowed to get away with murder. In future, we will call upon Gen Dramat to explain to us, as to why corruption associated with this Marshal System is not investigated and why criminal charges are not instituted.
We received a validation report for Continuous Integration, CI, lane which is supposed to tell us whether the CI lane is efficient or not. This time around, it looks like the department is trying to make sure that we do not falter again. There is progress in the FSL, minister, I agree with you. We see it, and would like to thank Gen Phahlane and his team. We also want to thank the analysts and scientists in our forensic laboratories, who have put up with situations that are sometimes not that favourable in terms of accommodation and working conditions but continue to professionally discharge their duties.
The installation of Closed Circuit Television, CCTV, cameras in the strategic areas of all our labs is a priority. We believe that this should be done without fail in this financial year, and we do not want to raise this matter next year. This is absolutely important, if we must fight drugs dealing. We must make sure that drugs do not leave our labs back to the street. We are satisfied with targets set in the annual performance plan. The department wants to process 93% of case exhibit within 28 working days, which in 2010-11 was 35 working days. We will definitely monitor the attainment of these targets.
We are also pleased to hear that the Department of Police
built a state of the art forensic laboratory here in the Western Cape. We believe that it is going to contribute in ensuring that case exhibits are processed timorously and within a short space of time. Well done General Mofomane and your team for building this laboratory.
Chairperson, during this financial year South African Police Services, SAPS, have a total budget of R62, 4 billion from R58, 5 billion during 2011-12 financial year. This represents a nominal increase of 6, 7% and an increase of 0, 77% in real terms. Of the R62, 4 billion, R45 billion is for compensation which accounts for 72% of the total budget and leave R17 billion for other projects such as goods and services and capital assets which is 28%. We believe that this situation needs proper management and attention so
that it does not escalate and get out of hand.
I want to talk about programme administration which takes R16, 2 billion. Chairperson, a lot has happened in SAPS. During 1995-96 SA had 140 955 SAPS members and to date we have 193 892 personnel in the Department of Police. The Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union, Popcru, and South African Policing Union, Sapu, have been raising the issue of a top heavy structure in SAPS. As of 31 March 2011, we had five deputy national commissioners and now they are six. So it is one national commissioner and six deputy national commissioners. However, five of the six deputy national commissioners report to one deputy commissioner, and seemingly, provincial commissioners have copied this as well.
So if you like, in terms of the organogram today, you have one national commissioner, one deputy national commissioner, and then five deputies to deputy national commissioner, then 15 divisional commissioners, nine provincial commissioners, 126 major generals and 519 brigadiers. It will be important for us to know as to what all these senior managers do everyday. To know as to whether job evaluation is being conducted. We will meet the department together with unions on human resource matters in June.
On 31 May 2011 there were vacancies in major and lieutenant ranks. We were told that these will be used to promote deserving people. Indeed, we have been told that there were promotions to these ranks
but the results are disappointing. The department will be briefing the committee in June about on this matter as well.
We acknowledge the fact that the building of the police stations is not an easy task to manage but it is worrying to learn from Auditor-General that there were no contracts signed for the building of police stations during 2011-12 financial year. In 2010, we asked the department to come up with an effective strategy that would ensure the building of the devolved police stations.
We, however, noted that the department resolved to refer back to the Department of Public Works the construction of all, including devolved police stations. We will await the finalisation of logistics and the processes. There is budget, police stations must be built and refurbished and nothing less.
Chairperson, leased accommodation is presenting itself as a challenge for the department. We believe that the department is trying its best. On their own, they have tried to get almost all copies of leased building contracts, thanks to General Mofomane and Major General Matsi in particular who seems to be prepared to do everything within her power to correct this situation. I hope Major General Matsi will continue to believe in hand on type of management than office bound management. Well done General. [Applause.] Through their approach they have assisted the department to get these contracts. So far they have managed to convince the Portfolio Committee on Police that they are trying to correct the situation but there are limitations which we acknowledge from our side but indeed we are seeing improvements.
In this regard, I want to say something about Citiforum building which is occupied by the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, We woke up one Sunday with headlines that claimed that Roux Shabangu owned the Citiforum building and the inflated and exorbitant rental was being paid to Mr Shabangu for this building. I even received a letter from the Member of Parliament, hon Dianne Kohler-Barnard, suggesting that together with the Department of Public Works, Mr Roux Shabangu must be hauled before the portfolio committee to provide it with long overdue explanation for what has become a deeply suspicious relationship between and a vast government departments.
Mr Roux Shabangu informed the portfolio committee that Citiforum building was bought by Mr van Niekerk in 2009 and R59 million and therefore the inflated and exorbitant rentals, in fact, are going to Mr van Niekerk. Immediately, what was regarded as a serious corruption and a sin if the building belonged to Mr Shabangu became normal rates and the blessing if it is Mr van Niekerk. I am still waiting for the letter that will suggest that we also invite Mr van Niekerk to come and answer for his blessings. [Applause.]
As I have stated that in 2005-06 the department had a budget R28, 4 billion. Today, R28, 6 billion is for the Visible Policing Programme only. This is our tax. It is contributed by that old woman somewhere there who has R10, 00 for buying candles and have to pay 14% for value-added tax, VAT; if it can only be fair for the portfolio committee, on behalf of that woman to demand value for money.
Chairperson, I do not know what to say here. Visible Policing Programme at station level is happening. I think it is important at this stage to thank our police officers who are bearing the brunt of the battle of crime in difficult and often dangerous crimes, yet they are often not appreciated. We thank them very much. We also deep our banners in remembrance and honour of all our police officers who died in the line of duty. We once more extend our heartfelt and sincere condolences to their immediate families, colleagues and communities. Let us also appreciate the work of the Community Policing Forums, CPFs, who volunteered their services only for the love of their communities and the country. To the CPFs we say well done.
Hon members, in its 2010-11 annual report the department and in particular Visible Policing acknowledged the illicit drugs, illicit alcohol, and illegal liquor outlets are the drivers of serious crimes. But Visible Policing management saw it fit not to set
targets for these drivers because if they do and say and do not meet these targets they will be qualified. There were no targets for the rolling out of victim support centres for some reasons I don't want to remember. I do not know what to say about sector policing strategy which the department started implementing in 2002 and 10 years later it is not being fully implemented, not assessed for its impact and no clear plan on what will be happening, going forward.
Minister, at national level I don't know what to say. In terms of performance, there is simply lack of commitment and seriousness. It is just unacceptable and that is all I think I want to say.
We want to congratulate the Acting National Commissioner for the decentralised National Police Day. We think that it is reaching more people and probably we think it is cost effective. Well done acting national commissioner. [Applause.]
As I conclude, even if hon Annelize van Wyk will deal with the Detective Services Programme, DSP, can I on behalf of the ANC extend our excitement about everything that was presented to Parliament on Detective Services Programme? Minister, your department said to us, the portfolio committee, we are giving you what you have been recommending, but we want to prove to you – portfolio committee – that we, the department, are the experts in this field and we will surpass your expectations! Minister, the presentation was from people who knew what they were talking about. They have clear targets.
Everyone who spoke on that exciting Thursday of 19 April 2010 – I mean 2012 - had clarity, seriousness and commitment. It was like they have gathered a team of experts who in terms of qualifications, experience, skills and performance were appointed. Minister, we are for now excited and we are optimistic. We want to congratulate the Minister and the Deputy Minister, the National Commissioner and the Deputy National Commissioner, Lebeya and his team. We remain unshaken in our commitment to call on all responsible citizens to become soldiers in the war against crime. Victory is certain! Amandla awethu! I thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr J D Thibedi): Thank you hon member. Before I proceed, I just want to indicate that on the matter of interpretation, it is a standard practice during the Extended Public Committee processes, EPC processes, that interpretation is done from the floor language into English. In other words, English is not interpreted but any other language spoken on the floor at a particular point in time will be interpreted into English. If hon members are not satisfied I think the matter can be taken up with the Chief Whips Forum so that it can look into it but by-and-large, it is a matter of logistics that creates this kind of a situation.
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, at least thanks for your honesty. I had thought you were going to blame it on apartheid but it is not acceptable and I will take it up. Thank you! [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr J D Thibedi ):As I've indicated, if you are not satisfied you can take up the matter with the Chief Whips Forum.
Mrs D KOHLER-BARNARD LMM & Mosa/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 447 & 448
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,09 May 2012,"[Take-333333447] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][gs].doc"
M
Mrs D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, the police are constitutionally mandated to prevent, combat and investigate crime, maintain public order, protect and secure the inhabitants of South Africa and their property, uphold and enforce the law.
The police, in our society in which families and communities are being torn apart and ravaged by high levels of violent crime, is nothing short of an essential service. Yet, our country has reached a defining political moment as we debate today the Budget Vote for this most crucial entity, the South African Police Service, SAPS. The SAPS has asked this House to approve an appropriation of R62.45 billion.
The question that should occupy reporters, political analysts, citizens and every politician in this country is: is there political interference within the service? The conclusion after joining the dots is that President Zuma has quite possibly reached into the SAPS, to protect a police officer accused of fraud, murder, and corruption on Richard Mdluli, the controversially reinstated Head of Crime Intelligence, I want us to ask, if a sudden shift of Richard Mdluli which was announced a few moments ago, would ever happened, had it not been from the pressure from the DA and free media, one has to ask, why the Minister did not suspend the man as he is under investigation, that is what should have happened in this House today.
This man, within a matter of months, has been pushed into one of the most powerful positions held by any individual in the country. He was the person who could approach the judge to request communication interceptions, and even the allegedly independent Hawks had to go to him cap in hand asking if could apply for communication interceptions for the investigation on their behalf.
He has swept the VIP Protection unit under his control so he has a heavily armed team reporting on the movement of politicians 24 - hours a day. He had the ability to tap the phone calls of This man has the ability to tap the phone calls of politicians as well as criminals, which is a tantalising fruit for someone who allegedly avoided prosecution as a result of secret recordings of telephone conversations.
This was and frankly to a large extent still as the elephant in the living room, I refer to this situation as the elephant in the living room because while we discuss budgets, 27 000 SAPS have firearms without licenses, the 150 police stations without electricity, water or toilets or all three; or we discuss the fact that Public Works regularly forgets to pay the rent on the dozens of SAPS buildings of oversees, so that SAPS members are locked out by angry landlords- no one anywhere within government, until the official opposition and civil society put their foot down dare to confront the issue of Richard Mdluli.
Everyone knows he is there but within government extreme care is taken to avoid discussing him; after all with him at the helm of the police, one faction could rely on the investigations into the activities of his opponents. During the budget briefings, I did attempt to have Richard Mdluli speak, but he was at that stage shut down by the Acting National Police Commissioner.
In the face of mass reportage for our free media, Richard Mdluli really is the quintessential Teflon man shrugged off murder and fraud charges, an entire shopping cart of alleged actions within the service. The report by Major General Mark Hankel highlights in excruciating detail that shopping cart of alleged actions, any one would have had any other SAPS member suspended pending the outcome of the investigation.
Indeed the SAPS has the highest total, per month, of suspended members of any Ministry the salary that is, because they are so serious in rooting out criminality within the service, yet somehow this enthusiasm just does not seem to apply to this man. Today we were told that he has been shifted, we do not know where to, the Minister kept that to himself, we do not know whether he is still in charge of what he controls, has he in fact have got security clearance, I wonder.
With the ever increasing density of the cloud hanging over his head, I somehow doubt it and yet surely he has been dealing on a daily basis with classified documents, now I put to the Parliament to question to that effect, but perhaps the Minister would like to take this opportunity to give us that answer. Perhaps he could also answer how it was that Richard Mdluli was not arrested for defeating the ends of justice when the Hawks reportedly found at seven missing dockets locked in his safe over a year ago?
Chairperson I would like to know whether the Minister was in any way involved in the decision to terminate the disciplinary proceedings against Richard Mdluli. If in any way he was involved in the reinstatement of him; and if he did indeed receive a copy of the letter in which Richard Mdluli made a pledge to the President to support him as a senior member of a political party?
Meanwhile we have seen a seinior public prosecutor have two attempts made on her life, shortly after handing a 200-page report on the lifting of the murder charges against Mdluli to the Acting head of the NPA who now mysteriously says she has never received it. We have the General Council of the Bar pointing to a spate of thefts from- and harassment of advocates; theft of laptops and documents from advocates involved in high profile cases involving the Minister of Police or police in his department. I do not believe in coincidences.
Equally so, in the case of a member of the Board of Inquiry into the suspended national commissioner, three men, armed with R5 assault rifles robbed him of laptops and documents. The rifles were the same type as those recently reportedly stolen from a safe at the Air Force Base in Waterkloof. The stolen rifles belonged to the VIP protection unit which some moments ago situated under Richard Mdluli. Let me repeat: I do not believe in coincidences.
Chairperson, today we read on the front page of the Cape Times, an affidavit requesting a probe into Richard Mdluli's alleged abuse of state resources where one of the documents stolen from a lawyer's Johannesburg home. The affidavit written by Human Settlements Minister, Tokyo Sexwale, was intended for Public Protector, Thuli Madonsela. Here is a senior member of Cabinet unequivocally stating that:
There is a reasonable suspicion that Mdluli in his capacity as
Head of Crime Intelligence may continue to abuse of power since he has been reinstated back to his job after his suspension.
Now he is shifted elsewhere within the SAPS. What we are seeing is a fundamental collapse of trust in our Justice Cluster Institutions- the Cabinet has claimed simultaneously that it did not discuss the Richard Mdluli saga, but that it had somehow without discussion come to the conclusion that what was going on in the SAPS was merely a series of public spat. A spat- that is what I would call the outcome of two women reaching for the same dress at a sale. This was a comment from a collection of what are supposed to be the best political brains in our country. Are the frightened of Richard Mdluli, some say, they are.
The South African public believes the situation is severe. The political infighting and factionalism are paralysing our law enforcement agencies. Severe in that many believe that we are teetering on the brink of becoming a Police State. This situation is being described as the greatest threat to the Criminal Justice System South Africa has faced in years. This has been cadre deployment at its very worse, as a deeply, deeply compromised person was allowed to resume his position despite a national outcry.
All of this is linked to the ongoing leadership battle within the ANC ahead of its elective congress and the outcry about the mismanagement of the SAPS by the suspended National Commissioner of Police pales into insignificance in the face of this debacle. Meanwhile every South African newspaper, radio and television station has been highlighting the war between various factions within the SAPS.
This is the same Cabinet of the current government under which the Ministry of Police has become something of a hot potato, with one National Police Commissioner behind bars, the next suspended for the improper conduct, unlawful and amounted to maladministration- and the latest under investigation by the Public Protector who says there is a prima facie case of improper conduct and abuse of power which warrants an investigation.
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Now, what we've seen is what happens when the wrong person is on top. With just 5% of the SA Police Service budget audited, the Auditor-General found R76 million worth of irregular expenditure. Presumable you find that acceptable.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members! Order!
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Of equal important to the Mdluli saga, had been the response by the SA Police Service and the Ministry to the Glenister judgment by the Constitutional Court when it ruled on the unconstitutionality of the Hawks. It was left to Parliament to ensure that a sufficiently independent unit was created and it did not determine that it should be within the SA Police Service. We had such a unit, of course, but the Scorpions were shut down because it investigated corruption without fear or favour and one ANC politician too many ended up feeling its sting.
At the time virtually, every legal firm, NGO, individual citizen and every Member of Parliament, who spoke against the closure of the Scorpions, said they believed Bob Glenister would win his case. Yet hon members Maggie Sotyu and Yunis Carrim said the decision had already been taken at Polokwane and, therefore, would be implemented no matter what. The tens of thousands of petitions, the marches and editorials were ignored, and Parliament and the Portfolio Committee on Police have ended up with egg all over their faces. The two who drove the closure of the unit were, of course, given deputy ministerial positions – one ironically of Police.
We all know that full independence means exactly that; the unit which will service this country without fear or favour - not primarily members of SA Police Service – not the units of whom have simply been gathered together and named the Hawks. The blue code of silence always has and always will mean that the police close rank to protect their own from investigation – there can be no independence in a ranked structure.
While we have taken this brief brake for this debate today, the Portfolio Committee on Police, known as the toughest portfolio committee in Parliament, with the strongest chairperson in Parliament, is presiding over the bizarre process of virtually rubberstamping what the Secretary of Police finally presented a few weeks ago – more than a year after the judgment.
No attempt seemed to be made at all to include anything, but a single correction thus far of 12 substantive inputs from top law professors and advocates from around the country. Indeed, it seems the committee is simply being herded down a predetermined path of going through the motions, pretending this is all a democratic process. Not a single deviation from this path is even being considered. This is exactly what happened the last time; this is exactly the same process that has ensured this whole sorry mess has been dumped back in the lap of the Portfolio Committee on Police.
Mr Glenister has already stated that he will take this proposed Bill straight back to the Constitutional Court should he not believe the unit to be sufficiently independent. This is hardly comforting for South African citizens who once again become equally scornful and terrified of SA Police Service members as, according to the integrated ballistic identification system, IBIS, they shoot to kill – and miss – on a regular basis, killing civilians and protesters, while, on the side, they demand bribes, rape, rob, torture and plunder. [Laughter.] Civilians are terrified because the difference between armed pursuit and extrajudicial assassination has become increasingly blurred.
At least we now know why there are so many of them miss what they aim at as 27 000 of them are carrying firearms without having passed their licences. In fact, many of them have actually tried and then failed to get their licences but, of course, the move by the acting National Police Commissioner to do the right thing and disarm them was stopped in its tracks. He then told us not to panic. This was all a misunderstanding – as though proper training in the use of firearms was negotiable for SA Police Service members. Perhaps it was all a misunderstanding that the Westville Hospital gunman who held staff hostage was able to renew his firearm licence despite having bipolar disorder, while SA Police Service members can't even get theirs renewed at all.
We have hundreds of deaths in custody and at the hands of SA Police Service members, as well as allegations of hit squads operating in several provinces. Indeed, in between the stories littering pages of the media, all focussing on the issue of the looting of the crime intelligence slush fund or funds by SA Police Service members and top politicians. This past weekend, the revelations of a second slush fund are the reports which relate to an unprecedented assault for the first time in our democratic era by police using unrestrained violence in hunting down both criminals and noncriminals alike, and that is literally exploding across South Africa.
To turn to the dire situation in the SA Police Service, around what we need here today, in Parliament, is an assurance from the Minister that Richard Mdluli, this deeply compromised man, is not even being considered as our next National Police Commissioner. Just say it. [Applause.]
Another area where we are seeing inexplicable deals done is in the area of personnel. On one oversight visit of the Portfolio Committee on Police, I discovered a woman with a Master of Arts, MA, Degree who had a man with just a Standard 8 promoted above her. Firstly, how did someone with a Standard 8 get into SA Police Service? Secondly, why aren't they promoting highly qualified woman? Before those currently in the government benches start hurling racist invectives at me, they were both black.
The Public Protector is investigating the claims of bizarre promotions within the SA Police Service at my behest and I assure you will hear how it is that drivers and secretaries and relatives abound up the ranks, when they have zero experience or qualifications.
Others may have forgotten, but I certainly remember that the Public Protector had to pressure the now suspended National Police Commissioner to look into allegations that Richard Mdluli chose not to investigate certain matters in Gauteng, and yet, Richard Mdluli, was hired anyway, spent a few days in his cell and came back as the Head of Crime Intelligence, now shuffled to who knows where?
Nor will we forget that the acting National Director of Public Prosecutions, Nomgcobo Jiba, who suspended Glynnis Breytenbach, was one of those who owe a huge debt to Richard Mdluli as he came to her rescue when she was suspended over her alleged involvement in a plot to have Scorpions Gauteng boss Gerrie Nel arrested.
Nel had prosecuted her husband for stealing a client's money out of his firm's trust account but, of course, the President expunged his criminal record in September 2010. The National Prosecutions Authority, NPA, in turns dropped the charges against Richard Mdluli.
Minister Nathi Mthethwa has for a very long time been ominously silent on recent disturbing developments within the SA Police Service despite his responsibilities in terms of overall control and management of the police. The lifting of Crime Intelligence boss, Richard Mdluli's, suspension is but one incident in a growing list of revelations. It was listed. If you presumably that it was not listed, think again ... [Interjections.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J D Thibedi): Order, hon members! Order, please!
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: ... about SA Police Service which is drawing the state of affairs within the police into question. For example, the continuing evictions and lockouts of police officers from their offices in at least four provinces, which are undermining police morale and service delivery and poses a severe threat to the security of some of the most vulnerable communities in South Africa.
There are questionable promotions in the SA Police Service. Six of President Jacob Zuma's VIP bodyguards have been irregularly promoted to the top ranks of the police - with two of them jumping six ranks overnight. This is the norm in the SA Police Service that friends and relatives are promoted through the ranks bounced through with zero qualifications into positions of leadership.
There are reports that suspended National Police Commissioner, Bheki Cele, signed off on a R26 million tender awarded by a businessman who allegedly showered top police officials with expensive gifts to approve the deal.
Now, all of these things I have touched on today, go some way to explain, why was it someone like Vusumuzi Silwana found himself so disgusted at the SA Police Service indifference at his 14-year-old daughter's murder that he went out and hunted down the killers himself. He did that in just five days of the SA Police Service couldn't or wouldn't or couldn't be bothered to do.
In conclusion, I want to thank especially - I know she was loud today, but she is an extraordinary committee chairperson - Sindi Chikunga, for her leadership [Applause.] and thanks to the vast majority of SA Police Service members who continue to perform their duties, even in this dark time in the history of the service. [Applause.]
The SA Police Service is in a worrying state and that is putting it mildly, yet this House is expected to approve a R62,45 billion. In any other democratic society in which the police, its senior management and its political heads are so deeply embroiled in allegations and counter-allegations, the Minister who has been so ominously silent and this lax in effectively dealing with the situation, would have done the honourable thing and resign. [Applause.]
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 448 & 449
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Chairpersons of the House, Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, I gladly follow my colleagues who have spoken before me on the Budget Vote 23 and 25 respectively. The Police budget is one of the most important budgets in our democratic dispensation. It is important because the policing and protecting derive from our supreme law, our Constitution, and which is a centre piece for the nation development. The protection of the democratic order is entirely a mandate of our police. Without the police, we will, of course, tail off.
We expected that at all times that the police would be guided by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and remain impartial in pursuance of the law and the public order. We value the budget as per the constitutional requirement that the police has to have R62,4 billion. The government's allocations to this department in this kind of budget show that enabling sector like the police and criminal justice cluster that are investing in them contribute a positive perception thereby open up opportunities for good investment in the country.
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I wish to take this opportunity of this Budget debate to thank and compliment South African policemen and women who have been doing the hard work night and day, in the hot summer, snowy and stormy weather to protect our country. We as Cope say that you must continue to be visible. We are aware that as police officers sitting there, many of you have to pay ultimate price for the safety of us South Africans.
For the record, we particularly want to state that thousands and thousands of policemen and women are hardworking, honest and always acting beyond reproach. We must emphasise and we should in fact say that in doing their work, they should not violate or offend our Constitution irrespective of the situation they may find themselves in. Doing so is in fact a punishable offence. The manipulation of statistics in Limpopo is equally a serious crime, Minister that must receive a punitive measure.
We are disappointed, however, about the conduct of many police officers who do not deserve to be called by the name of the South African Police Service as articulated in our Constitution. All those involved in criminal conduct helping drug dealers to have a clear passage; involve in drugs, abalone poaching, killing rhinos, selling horns, turning into hit squads, like the Cato Manor squad with alleged 45 bodies under their belt, are worse criminals that must not be tolerated by the state, including the South African citizenry as a whole.
The action taken against them by the Minister and the national commissioner must send a merciless message that this cannot be tolerated in our country at this stage. [Applause.] The former national commissioner who is still under suspension, when he used the slogan, "shoot to kill", we warned that the introduction of such a concept is dangerous in our democracy. We warned at that time that those who handle fire power will use that power and cover it up with reasons. We were emphatic that in fact such a slogan is a slow walk to Vlakplaas, where our people were eliminated by Eugene De Kock as a leader of that squad. Now, this one led by Johan Booysen did a similar thing.
Coming to the more serious staff, Minister, the shenanigans in the police need to stop. The issue about the nonpayment of rental and lease that has projected a negative image in the police needs to stop. We have heard that the acting national commissioner, recently instead of dealing with the problem of 27 000 police who have no skill to handle a firearm, talked about instituting an investigation on how the information was leaked. This information was available to the oversight visit to all the provinces about guns and police officers who are unable to handle firearms.
We are worried that even that has gone further to say some senior officials have been suspended as a result of this particular leak. When you read newspapers about Richard Mdluli, [Interjections.] you see the abuse of resources. This abuse is allegedly used by him as a means to gain a position of power and influence politically, including becoming the national commissioner. Ministers are running away instead of acting firmly. [Interjections.] Is it correct that we must conclude that the involvement and running away and allowing Mdluli ... [Interjections.] ... to run away, is in fact, to allow the political contestation?
The same person called Richard Mdluli is the one who penned the report, went and used it in South Gauteng against his own suspension as an issue of conspiracy against him. Now, when you read about Mdluli versus the Hawks ...[Interjections.] ... you see and observe a terrible and horrifying scene that is allowed to worsen. Who is spying for whom to settle party leadership contestations? The report of that kind is unwarranted and in fact breathtaking.
We must conclude that silence on these issues, and lack of action must only signal a support of this saga. When you hear about the deployment, redeployment and suspension, you see the emerging problem that results in a top heavy structure of the SAPS. Though suspension used for others to take over the position, it leaves us speechless not being able to say what we want to say. This is a power play that we are seeing in the police on a scale never seen before.
Newspapers inform us that the Minister is worried about the issue of bugging of cell phones, that is in fact a serious matter ... [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU / AZM MNGUNI/VM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 449 & 450
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo neNdlu ehloniphekile, ngifuna ukuqala lapha kukubi khona kakhulu ukuthi umNyango wezemiSebenzi yomPhakathi kanye nomNyango wamaPhoyisa kayisebenzisani kahle neze. Ukuthi kuvalwe amahhovisi bese amaphoyisa asebenzela emnyango sengathi awanayo imali into ehluphaya futhi okufanele ilungiswe masinyane ngoba uma kungenjalo, kusho ukuthi umNyango wezemiSebenzi yomPhakathi awukho, asazi ukuthi kusetshenzwa nobani.
Okwesibili, ileli komidi okuthiwa yi-Bid Adjudication Committee, leli komidi lakho lenza umsebenzi omuhle kabi. Kodwa indaba embi elayenza ukuthi lathenga izinto eziningi ezingena msebenzi. Lasebenzisa izimali ezinkulu, ekugcineni kwatholakala ukuthi ezinye zazo ngeke zisebenze. Lokhu akuvunyelwanga futhi kuyi-corruption, ngeke sikwazi ukuyimela leyo lento ngoba umuntu uthatha imali yomuntu ohluphekayo ayisebenzise ngendlela engafanele. Akufuneki ukuthi leyo nto yenzeke iqhubeke. Ngakho-ke siyanqusa ukuthi abantu abasebenzisa abangane ukuthola izindawo, amahhovisi, ukungena ezikhundleni, ukwenza yonke into – cishe ngathi nokuthola izintombi [Uhleko.] akuvumelekile lokho. Akuvumelekile lokho mhlonishwa.
English:
Therefore, corrupt officials need to be investigated, Minister, no matter what position they hold, that includes the supply chain management. I am not talking about people who are in the supply chain management now. I am talking about those who were in the supply chain management. They need to be investigated together with those who have resigned because ...
IsiZulu:
... ayikho into ebuhlungu njengokuthi uma umuntu ezobekwa icala bese kuthiwa izolo usule emsebenzini ngoba namhlanje uzobekwa icala lokweba. Lokho kukodwa kusiphatha kabi thina ukuthi kukhona abantu ababaleka nezimali zethu ngokungafanele.
Uma sibheka ukusebenza kwamaphoyisa, kukhona amaphoyisa asebenzisa isicabha esivuleka ngomshwibo [swing door] ngamanye amazwi, anebhizinisi khona la emnyangweni. Ugcine ungasazi ukuthi kwenzekani, ingabe lo muntu uyiphoyisa noma ungusomabhizinisi. Awusazi manje uma usomabhizinisi omncane ozidayisela ikhabishi notamatisi uyakhahlelwa enziwe yonke into ngoba lo muntu ufuna ukuthi kudle yena yedwa, ngenxa yokuthi usebenzisa isicabha esivuleka ngomshwibo. Uma kungenjalo ngenkathi eseboshwa yilaba ababophayo, asuke asule emsebenzini kuthi ngakusasa sekasebenza njengosiyazi [consultant] womnyango ofanayo. Ngeke sikumele lokho ngoba ...
English:
... that is corruption on top of corruption plus corruption. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
IsiZulu:
Lokho kuhambenala nokungasebenzisi kahle izinsuku zokugula [abuse of sick leave.] Amaphoyisa awasebenzisi ngendlela efanele izinsuku zokugula. Lokho bakwenza ngabomu, mhlawumbe ngoba baphethwe ngabafowabo noma osisi babo noma kungoba kunjani. Kukhona okewakhuluma ngokuthi uyanyukiswa esikhundleni uya ezingeni lesishiyagalombili ngenxa yokuthi uneziqu zemfundo ephakeme. Konke lokho kuyi-corruption.
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Uyabona-ke Mhlonishwa ngakhulela emakhaya mina. Umuntu ogangile ubekwa icala, uma esebekwe icala emva kwalokho atholakale enecala bese eyaxoshwa emsebenzini. Akulokhu kushoniswa ilanga, kubanjwa kuyekwa kungaziwa ukuthi kwenziwani.
English:
We must be very frank with each other, especially when we are dealing with the police. We cannot afford to have a corrupted person within the Police Service, whatsoever, no matter what and no matter who is dealing with what.
IsiZulu:
Uyabona-ke Mhlonishwa uma kukhulunywa ngabantu okuthiwa bayaqeqeshwa kodwa abakwazi ukuphatha izibhamu. Nhloboni yomuntu leyo? [Uhleko.]
Bese kuthiwa bayageja abakwazi ukuqondisa. Umuntu adubule ayise eceleni-nhloboni yomuntu leyo? Wayekade engene kanjani lowo muntu ngoba kunezitebhisi okuhanjwa ngazo ngempela? Sikwenza kanjani lokho? Lokhu ukwehlisa isithunzi sobuphoyisa Mhlonishwa. Ngibuthanda kabi ubuphoyisa mina kodwa uma ngabe benza lento, hhayi impela sengizogcina ngingasabuthandi, Mhlonishwa. [Uhleko.] Phela kwehlisa isithunzi sabo lokhu ngoba akufanele kwenzeke. Ngakho-ke labantu abenza lokhu abafanele bakwenze lokhu. [Kuphele isikhathi][Ihlombe.]
Mr S Z NTAPANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 450
Mnu B V NDLOVU
English:
Mr S Z NTAPANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, let me at the onset state that the UDM supports Votes No 23 and 25. [Applause.] Since the year 2009-10, there has been a lot of advances and successes in the fight against crime in South Africa. With the exception of a few categories, violent and serious crimes have come down significantly. Improved police visibility and other crimes strategies seem to have paid dividends, as alluded to by the hon chairperson of the portfolio committee. Though a lot of work still needs to be done to reduce the unacceptable high levels of crime in South Africa, we would like to commend the Department of Police for working hard to ensure that the South African people are and feel safe.
However, we are concerned about the fact that the few successes in the fight against crime are flanked by high levels of police brutality. Over the past few years, we have seen an increase in the
number of cases of people who die in police custody, people who die as a result of police action, and people who are tortured or assaulted by police officers in the execution of their duties, to mention but a few. We have also seen an increased number of cases where some members of the South African police use brute force to disperse peaceful service-delivery protests. However, we welcome the means to address this particular issue as enunciated in this House by the hon Minister.
In this regard, the UDM welcomes the Independent Police Directorate in Budget Vote No 23, which enhances the capacity of the directorate. We also welcome the directorate's medium-term priorities of conducting public awareness of its mandate and functions. These actions will help stem the tide of police brutality in South Africa.
The UDM is also particularly concerned about the reports regarding the shocking levels of corruption in the Department of Police. Recent reports indicate that the Hawks have uncovered a concealed police bank account that is being used to deposit commissions for the purchase of police vehicles. The police headquarters lease saga is another example of how people use the public purse to extract private wealth. It is sad to see a department that started so well and then becomes engulfed in such controversies and scandals. Government needs to
rid the entire security cluster of its mafia-like image. The South African people deserve a better functioning security cluster. As I have said at the start, hon Chairperson, the UDM supports both these Budgets. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 450 & 451
Mr S Z NTAPANE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, my Minister, the Minister of Police – I'm no longer a chairperson, and I want to behave, so please leave me alone – Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police Mme Sindi Chikunga, hon Members of Parliament, the acting National Commissioner of Police and your team, Executive Director of the newly established Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, Mr Beukman and your team, the Chairperson of the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority, Psira Mr Bopela, our distinguished guests, and all safety and security MECs from provinces, I greet you my colleagues. Ntate Kompela from my own province, halala!
Chairperson, I rise to first pay tribute and respect to our comrades and colleagues in government who passed on during these past two weeks. We say rest in peace to Comrade Shiceka, Comrade Padayachie and Comrade Mama Flo Nyanda.
Chair, the core work of the Department of Police is aligned to the national priority Outcome 3: "All people in South Africa are and feel safe." Notwithstanding, for the SAPS management to create a
reduced crime environment in our society, we strongly believe that our common goal for Outcome 3 must oriented to interdepartmental and intergovernmental integrated action. I'm saying this because only yesterday, I had a major meeting with the acting National Commissioner of Police together with a working group for former nonstatutory force, NSF, members who were integrated within the SA Police Service to address the long outstanding issues of the former NSF members' integration, reranking, pension, and others.
This meeting is informed by the directive of our President, His Excellency Jacob Zuma, who is expecting us, as police leadership, to implement the national directives of the Military Veterans Act, Act 18 of 2011, the Government Employees Pension Law Amendment Act, and other formal agreements to remedy the disparities with regard to these members' benefits and privileges.
The Ministry of Police is in cognisance of the fact that the successful realisation of these directives can only be achieved with the support of National Treasury. We will also be requesting the Ministry of the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, for support by sharing with us best practices, since the SANDF is already rolling out the same directive. That is why, as the Ministry of Police, we believe that crime prevention and crime reduction work must also resonate, especially with the national Outcomes 2, 4, 9 and 12, which envisions a long and healthy life for all South Africans, decent employment through inclusive economic growth, a responsive, accountable, effective, and efficient local government system, an efficient, effective and development oriented Public Service, and an empowered, fair and inclusive citizenship respectively. For undoubtedly, the success or failure of the Department of Police's mandate solely lies in the efficiency and effectiveness or lack thereof of local police stations in our local communities.
The strengthening of the Cluster and Station Management Framework, CSMF, that we are now embarking on in the department surely becomes imperative to bolster the effective management and efficient functions of our police officers at local police station level. Admittedly, the past few months have been jittery for the reputation of our SA Police Service, at times a self-inflicted nervy image, but mostly, an alleged and unfounded painted picture by sceptics. Thank you, for highlighting it, chairperson. Indeed, the self-made problems include the recent headlines of 600 police officers arrested and 272 fired in Gauteng alone, the brutality or excessive use of force by our police officers and the killings of loved ones by police officers. It's amazing that none of the opposition members who spoke here said anything about the killing of police and the killing of their own families.
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,09 May 2012,"[Take-333333451] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][gs].doc"
We can say without any doubt that the Ministry of Police will neither shudder nor shiver in acting decisively against any police officer or personnel in the Department of Police who are found guilty of committing serious crimes, including corruption. In this regard, the Ministry of Police has put in place a comprehensive anticorruption implementation plan.
In the same vein, the Ministry of Police acknowledges that maladministration and service failures at station level and specifically at national office level do lead to a dysfunctional and disoriented workforce in general.
Yes, as leadership, we are not shy to say that the oversight reports by both the Secretariat of Police and the parliamentary Portfolio Committee on Police clearly and factually show that all is not well at some of our police stations across the country. Suffice it to say that, as the Ministry of Police, we are now showing and leading the way for the SAPS top management to be responsive to these glaring problems.
In support of the Minister of Police's constant visits to police stations across the country, I am also rolling out across all nine provinces what we call the Provincial Intervention Programme. The main goal of this programme is to hold in-depth engagements with our police officers – especially the lowly ranked personnel – on issues such as their health and wellness at their places of work and at their residences.
The engine of an organisation is its workforce, and the functioning of that engine is solely dependent upon how well it is looked after. We are the first ones to complain about things like police brutality, sick leave and so on, but we don't go deeper and interview the police to find out what the problem is.
That is what the Deputy Minister did after getting the report from you, chairperson. The report of that engagement will be given to you as the chairperson and to no other member.
So far, the problems we have identified through this engagement with police officers have mostly to do with commanders or managers upholding or not upholding the basic principles and values of good administration. For example, we have discovered that most of the police officers who are vulnerable to being killed while using public transport to report for duty, or who commit suicide or kill their loved ones, tend to be lowly ranked, lower-salaried, co-habiting individuals who do not have houses of their own.
It is then precisely during these volatile times that we need strong leadership from provincial commissioners to address these problems. We need all nine Provincial Commissioners to actively encourage and support station commanders to manage their police stations fearlessly, fairly and with focus by treating his or her troopers impartially, with respect, and courtesy, and without bias, discrimination or prejudice.
For what we need are proactive station commanders who will detect what works and what does not work any more for the proper running of his or her police station.
That is why the station management learning programme is now being introduced to provide the basic knowledge and skills required by a station commander across the priority fields of police station management, such as personnel management and human resource management and utilisation. Such trained station commanders will, in turn, make sure that their troopers also benefit from refresher course or refresher training reskilling courses in order to reinforce command and control, discipline, tactical skills and operational knowledge as well as basic management principles.
Yes, chairperson Chikunga, we agree with you. The national office divisional commissioners must support the station commanders in these endeavours. Divisional commanders must minimise bureaucracy and must begin to be visible at police stations. They must stop being office-bound and being submission signers; they must go down to the provinces. This is what the Ministry of Police believes.
Divisional commissioners are encouraged not be hindered by reporting burdens and by being target-oriented, but must be more visible and available at cluster and station level to intervene on issues of station management and operation, as you have highlighted in your report after your provincial visits.
Tackling problems of management, service delivery and accountability will not be solely dictated by the size of the budget provided to SAPS. Yes, R62,4 billion is the total budget for the financial year 2012-13 for the Department of Police and one of the biggest amongst national departments. But this big budget becomes futile if the SAPS top management is not able to honour the implementation plan to appropriately spend this allocated money. It must be about a strong belief in the vision and principle of this government to better the livelihoods of our people. It must be about a decisive focus on the working organisational culture of the Department of Police and its top management and about the precise approach to fighting and preventing crime as set out by the authority of the department.
The national call by His Excellency, Jacob Zuma, in 2012 in the state of the nation address in which the president invited the nation to join government in a massive infrastructure development for job creation and poverty alleviation, must surely resonate with our goal 3 as well, albeit indirectly. Through the capital infrastructure and capital management programme, SAPS will be improving its work relationship with the Department of Public Works during the building and revamping of police stations across the country as alluded to by the Minister.
Indeed, we do believe that, if departments and communities are not working hand-in-hand with the police, the police won't be able to fight crime effectively. In order for us to fight crime effectively we need that partnership between communities and the department at large to assist the police so that we can have safer communities. I thank you.
Mr P J GROENEWALD
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 451 & 452
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek aanvaar dat u sê ek kan voortgaan.
English:
I want to start by saying to the hon Minister that, besides the Jackie Selebi case, the Mdluli case did the most damage to the image of the SAPS. The Minister's actions are a matter of too little too late.
Unfortunately I must tell you, hon Minister, that you have egg on your face. You were the person who instructed that the member be reinstated after his suspension. Now, how is it possible that a member of the police who has a murder inquest pending against him can still be in a position to serve?
An HON MEMBER: Disgraceful!
Mr P J GROENEWALD: When allegations are made against the normal members of the police service, they are suspended and there is no comeback before the matter is finalised. [Interjections.]
Afrikaans:
Agb Minister, u is ongelukkig skuldig daaraan, en ek sê weer dat wat u gedoen het, te min te laat is. Die publiek van Suid-Afrika moet vertroue in die polisie hê. Daardie vertroue lê aan skerwe as gevolg van die Mdluli saak. [Tussenwerpsels.]
'n AGB LID: Hoor hoor!
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Dié wantroue word weerspieël in wat ons in Suid-Afrikaanse gemeenskappe sien gebeur. Dit is onstellend as 'n mens lees dat, in plekke soos Khayelitsha en Mpumalanga, mense die reg in eie hande neem en halsnoermoorde pleeg, omdat hulle sê [Tussenwerpsels.] dat hulle nie meer vertroue in die polisie het nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
So the community is taking its own decisions, using necklaces to actually murder alleged criminals. That, hon Minister, is on your table.
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,09 May 2012,"[Take-333333452] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][gs].doc"
I've posed a question to you on this matter and I didn't receive the answer yet.
Afrikaans:
Dit gaan hande uitruk en ons gaan anargie in Suid-Afrika hê. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil oor plaasmoorde praat. Die regering sê altyd dat hy voedselsekerheid wil hê. As Minister van Polisie, watter sekerheid gee u aan die boere oor hul veiligheid op hul plase? [Tussenwerpsels.] Vanaf 2007 wil u nie plaasmoord-statistieke beskikbaar stel nie. U het dit altyd gedoen. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hoekom word dit nou skielik terughou?
Agb Minister, ek wil vir u vra, is u bereid om met die VF Plus in gesprek te tree oor die aspek van plaasveiligheid en plaasmoorde, sodat ons 'n oplossing kan kry? U gaan nie voedselsekerheid hê as u nie sekerheid aan die boere gee oor hul veiligheid nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Ek wil ook oor die beheer van vuurwapens praat. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is onstellend as die Provinsiale Kommissaris van Gauteng sê dat ongeveer 200 000 patrone of rondtes van R5-aanvalsgewere by opleidingskolleges in Gauteng gesteel is. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Dit is juis aanvalsgewere wat gebruik word in transito-rooftogte. [Tussenwerpsels.] As 'n mens deesdae na winkelsentrums toe gaan, dan is dit hierdie tipe wapens wat aangewend word. U moenie die publiek daarvoor blameer nie, want die publiek besit nie R5-aanvalsgewere nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is net die polisie en die Suid-Afrikaanse Nasionale Weermag. Die vingers wys almal na u toe.
Die vraag is, hoe is dit moontlik dat daar nog steeds ongeveer 27 000 polisielede is wat nie bevoegdheidsertifikate het om vuurwapens te hanteer nie? [Tussenwerpsels.] U laat mense met vuurwapens in die publiek rondbeweeg, maar u het nie vir hulle bevoegdheidsertifikate nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] As ek dit doen, word ek onmiddelik gearresteer [Tussenwerpsels.] vir die besit van onwettige vuurwapens.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order please. Hon, your time is expired.
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Ek verwag van die agb Minister [Tussenwerpsels.] om op te tree en ... [Onhoorbaar.]
Ek sal praat. Ek sal nie na jou luister nie! [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek sal ... [Onhoorbaar.] [Tussenwerpsels.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order please, order. Your time is expired, hon Groenewald.
Mr P J GROENEWALD: If you order me to sit, I will sit but I don't listen to the members that side. Thanks.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): I'll require, from both sides of this House, absolute discipline and respect. Whether you agree with a person who is on the floor or not, please give him or her an opportunity to express their views. Thank you. I don't want to repeat that.
Rev K R J MESHOE /GG//Mia (Eng) & /TH (Afr)//nvs (Afr)/// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 452
Mr P J GROENEWALD
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the ACDP is deeply concerned about the effects that media reports about the SAps generals attacking one another in public have on the morale of the police. The confidence and trust of the public in their own security establishments wanes as they do not only read about these fights, but also about police officers who are involved in serious crimes such as murder, rape and armed robbery. It is not enough I believe, for Cabinet to condemn the ongoing public spat between senior police officers including the head of crime intelligence. Cabinet must be seen to be united behind fighting all forms of corruption, particularly among the police who have a constitutional mandate to prevent, combat and.... [Interjections.]
Mr M L SUKA: Hon Chair, on a point of order: I just want to say that it is not conventional that a member must walk between the chair and the speaker. That hon member is out of order, he must take his seat. Thank you.
Mr G B D MC INTOSH: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry. Mr Chairman, on a point of order... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Sir, it's not a point of order, please sit down.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, I hope you will give me a one minute that I lost. Thank you.
It is not enough for Cabinet to believe condemn the ongoing public spat between senior police officers, including the head of crime intelligence. Cabinet must be seen to be united behind fighting all forms of corruption, particularly among the police who have a constitutional mandate to prevent, combat and investigate crime. They are obliged to uphold and enforce the rule of law at all times.
Johan Burger, senior researcher with the Institute for Security Studies, is reported to have said that dozens of officers who speak to him daily are allegedly saying that:
They are embarrassed to put on their uniforms and go out in the public. They are ashamed to be associated with the police because of the criminal behaviour and corruptness of their bosses. Their officers have absolutely no confidence in their top structures and this ultimately hampers their own willingness and ability to carry out their daily duties.
This Chairman, I believe you will agree with me that it is shameful and is totally unacceptable. It demotivates those good police officers who want to render an effective service to the communities.
While the ACDP welcomes the Minister's announcement this afternoon, that Lieutenant-General Richard Mdluli will be moved to another division to be determined by the Acting National Commissioner, Lieutenant-General Mkhwanazi, we nevertheless believe the announcement came a bit late as much damage to the police morale has already been done.
The Minister should have informed the House to what division Mr Mduli will be moved to, so that all those concerned about the prevailing atmosphere in the police would be put at ease.
The ACDP calls on the Minister of Police to help drastically improve the image of the police by publicly supporting Acting Police Commissioner, Lieutenant Mkhwanazi who was reported to have vowed to expose and deal with criminals within the police. The Acting Police Commissioner must also be supported by the President and his cabinet in his reported resolve to:
Prove that there are people strategically operating like a mafia and I will deal with these people, I will ensure justice is delivered.
I know that the Minister has dismissed allegations of cover ups in the probe into the head of crime intelligence. But sir, what should the public think when they hear about the intimidation of National Prosecution Authority anticorruption prosecutor, Advocate Glynnis Breytenbach, which includes being shot at, almost being driven off the road, and also being followed until now, and also being suspended for what appears to be frivolous allegations.
Why shouldn't we believe that her suspension is connected to her resistance to the dropping of charges against the crime intelligence boss?
The ACDP believes that prosecutors and all police officers, particularly detectives, must be able to perform their tasks without fear, favour or prejudice. The ACDP further believes that the SAps and all structures of government should be people who are committed to integrity, upholding the rule of law and professional ethics.
In the light of the perceived increasing corruption in the police, the perceived protection of accused generals who should be fighting to clear their names in the court of law, and the alleged harassment of detectives and prosecutors who want to root out criminality from the top echelons of the SAps and other security establishments, the ACDP is not going to support this Budget Vote. Let the powers that be refrain from sweeping the rot under the carpet, clean the SAps house, and then the ACDP will support the next Police Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI /NN (Eng)// /TH (Afr)//nvs(Afr) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 453
Rev K R J MESHOE
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,09 May 2012,"[Take-333333453] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][gs].doc"
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and the hon. Members, with the many challenges facing the department, a strategic level-headed approach is certainly needed especially from the executive head. The fight against crime requires not only political commitment but strategic approaches, an ability to identify to identify strategic partners. The goal of combating crime can never be achieved unless and until police realise that their primary partners in this fight is the society.
The Community, the ordinary citizens, they must know that we all want the same thing, to be safe in the streets and in our homes even those that act in a way that makes our streets unsafe. They themselves still want to be safe in those streets. One good element with our constitution is that they accept the bill of rights. It makes provision for the checks and balances.
The Independent Complaints Directorate serves to keep the police in line as does the secretariat for policing. Police brutality in handling citizens serves nobody any good. In fact it aggravates the issue and crime itself because every time police use unwarranted force against civilians they are committing crime which they are mandated to combat.
It is an absolute shame that civil cases emanating from the police brutality have pushed the contingent liability to 7, 5 billion in the past financial year. ICD'S 2011 annual report shows that our police are more violent than they have been in the past ten years. Of course there is notable departure from the spirit of the constitution which envisaged a police service as we have these days a police force.
It is high time that the selection to join the police be done meticulously and ensures that these men and women know that fighting crime does not necessarily require brawn, but brains too.
Taxpayers' money goes down the drain when courts find the Minister for acts of brutality and foolishness by some police officers such as incarcerating a bleeding drunk suspect who subsequently dies in the holding cell. We applaud that current plans reflect focus on building more police stations, improving detective services, strengthening forensic capacity and improve overall skills and working conditions.
The Challenge however, will always remain to strengthen police management capacity and internal accountability. If this is achieved, South Africans can look forward to a better policing system in the future. The wrangling among police heads in recent weeks has been cause for great concern. We hope that they will heed the warning from cabinet and desist from such counter- productive conduct. The UCDP supports the budget vote. {Applause]
Mr G LEKGETHO
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 453 & 454
Mr I S MFUNDISI
Mr G LEKGETHO: Thank you hon Chair, hon Minister Mthethwa, hon Deputy Minister Sokyu, Chairperson of Portfolio Committee, Ms Chikunga, acting national commissioner, Ntate Mkhwanazi, all the provincial commissioners here today, director of Independent Police Directorate, ladies and gentlemen.
The year 2012/13 is a significant year for the Independent Investigative Directorate. In April 2012 it was officially launched as an Act given the APEC Act NO 1 0F 2011. The Act in short provides for independent investigation of specified crimes committed by members of SAPS and Metro Police.
In line with its changed mandate, the annual budget of IPID increased by 28, 4 percent in 2012-13 financial year or almost R40 million. This significant increase in the budget is to enable party to implement new act and boosting its personnel numbers. The budget increases from R153 million to R197, 1 million. The budget is divided into three programmes: Programme 1 administration, budget of R92,9 million , programme 2 investigation and information management R98,8 million and programme three, legacy, budget of R5,4 million.
The spending priorities of the directorate over 2012/13 period are filling of new positions within new staff establishment. Thirty-four new posts have been created for 2012/13 financial year. Twenty–six of these positions fall in programme 2, investigations and information management. This is to appoint seventeen investigators in nine provincial heads.
Over the medium- term expenditure the staff of the directorate were increased to over twenty. Hon Chairperson, skills development to enable the investigators to deal with, redefines mandate of the EPD is a further cost bribery ion this financial year. All the investigators must attend training where they are taken through the Act. Training would include DNA, torture, forensic and ballistic evidence collection, medico-legal evidence, corruption, firearm training and report writing.
With the growth of numbers, the accommodation needs of the directorate will expand especially in provinces. Currently the directorate in addition to its nine provincial offices has six satellite offices throughout the country. It has planned to open further two during this financial year, one in George in the Western Cape and one in Tshwane in Gauteng.
As the ANC we are concerned that the satellite in George was suppose to open during the 2011/12 financial year and to date little progress seems to have been made. We would like to see better planning in this regard. The ANC is also not convinced by the decision to open new satellite offices in Tshwane on the same premises as the national office is motivated by high reasons. According to the ANC establishment of the satellite offices should be to bring services closer to the people and one cannot, but rather deal with head offices.
Hon. House Chairperson, hon Minister, the ANC is still concerned about a number of issues relating to the effective functioning of IPID. We are uncomfortable that the increase indicated in programme two, investigation seems to be cosmetic as seventeen posts in that environment is less than two new investigators per province. Furthermore programme one; administration seems to get a big chunk of the budget of the directorate.
Will the additional resources invested in the IPID and increase in each staff member, the ANC would also expect to see a significant improvement in the investigative work of the IPID. It cannot be acceptable that in a single report in the police station in the North West. The same investigator refers to three different objects used by the detainee to commit suicide as a tie, a rope and a belt.
Investigation of such poor quality would not stand in the court of law. The ANC believes strongly that there should be a differentiation of indicators when dealing with investigation. It cannot be argued that there are no benchmarks for issues such as death in police custody. All different kinds that fall within the mandate of the directorate cannot be clustered together. This need to be corrected.
Hon Minister, the ANC is worried about the IPID will and ability to execute its redefined mandate. The example of a case in Limpopo where a police officer assaulted a youth and a cell phone video went viral is a case in point. In November 2011 the case was first reported in the Sowetan. It is only after public outcry in March 2012 that IPID got on board.
It is of the most utmost importance that the directorate deals with cases timeously and effectively. They are the architects of their own credibility and failure or success will be determined by their own actions. The ANC will monitor the implementation of the Act. The capacitating of the investigators also in terms of numbers and we will applaud success and hail shortcomings. It is in the interest of the people.
Hon Chair, I am still on time. [Laughter]. The ANC supports the budget of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. I thank you.
Hon Minister, the ANC is worried about the will and ability of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, to execute its redefined mandate. The example of the case in Limpopo where a police officer assaulted a youth and the cell phone video went viral is a case in point. In November 2011, the case was first reported in the Sowetan, and it is only after public outcry in March 2012 that IPID actually got involved.
It is of utmost importance that the directorate deals with cases timeously and effectively. They are the architects of their own credibility, and failure or success will be determined by their own actions. The ANC will monitor the implementation of the Act, the capacitating of the investigators, also in terms of numbers, with a keen eye. We will applaud success and highlight shortcomings, because it is in the interests of the people. Hon Chair, I am still on time. [Interjections.] Hon Minister, the ANC supports the budget of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. Thank you.
Mr R B BHOOLA
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 454
Mr G LEKGETHO
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to congratulate the hon Minister for taking a positive and bold step with a hands-on approach to ensure the safety and security of all our people. We must be realistic when confronted with challenging aspects, as crime is one of the negative obstacles for the advancement of any country, and South Africa is not unique to this. Irrespective of political affiliation, we all fly under one flag, and it is incumbent for all of us to march forward with courage, conviction and determination, and never stop until we have delivered a caring and a truly crime-free society.
True accolades undoubtedly must be awarded to all those policemen and women who execute their duties with honesty, integrity and hard work. The MF urges that the Police Service must be an institution that is friendly, approachable and understands the Public Service code of ethics. We need to put a system in place that we are aware of that if a matter is reported, ultimately there must be checks to ensure that it has been sufficiently and successfully addressed by the police.
A police officer who has not addressed the matter appropriately must be dealt with to ensure accountability by the Public Service. Hon Minister, the MF is also concerned about our recruitment criteria. We must ensure that new recruits have a clear distinction between one who wants to earn a salary and one who has the aptitude and wants to be a career policeman or policewoman.
Critics have raised concerns as some police officers do not know when, who and how to shoot. There must be some particular circumstances when you can pull the trigger. Recently, a boy was shot in the car when he was playing a with a toy gun which seemed to appear as a real gun to the police. No warning shot was fired. When the police suspects, they must not be trigger happy. Another incident is that when teachers were on strike, and the police pulled the trigger. We must ensure undoubtedly that we have police officers that are skilled and caring. The issues of bribery and corruption must be dealt with appropriately. Cases of child abuse, corporal punishment and sexual abuse at schools must not be pushed under the carpet. In areas where there is a high rate of drug abuse, even at schools, people are let out easily and loosely.
Hon Minister, every person has a right to believe and practice their own religion, and the red-string outrage that has taken place in the Hindu policeman's case is the violation of such right enshrined in our Constitution. Was there a search done on all policemen and women? To selectively do it to Hindus is discriminatory, racist and smacks of victimisation.
One would like to ask: to what extent did it substantially interfere with the uniform of the police? He did not put on a kurta, a hat or a traditional Zulu outfit. The red string merely symbolises love, peace and protection. I am reminded however by the prophetic words of Mahatma Gandhi, that "I will allow the windows of my home to be open." The Minority Front supports the Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr D J STUBBE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 454
Mr R B BHOOLA
Mr D J STUBBE: Chairperson, Members of Parliament, members of the public, and members of the police, the newly created Independent Police Investigative Directorate, IPID, formally commenced its duty on 1 April this year. While the directorate has significantly improved on its predecessor, the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, it has similar constraints in terms of insufficient funding to effectively perform its constitutional defined role as police watchdog.
The directorate is tasked with solving thousands of murder, rape, assault and corruption cases involving police across the country every year. Concerning the sharp increase in cases of police brutality, murder, assault and misconduct in the past four years, the directorate's role in ensuring that police play by the book and abide by the law is becoming increasingly important.
Weak legislation and a lack of funding severely hampered the efforts of the ICD, coupled with what seemed to be a deliberate decision on the part of the Ministry to give them the smallest possible budget. This resulted in over 80% of their recommendations to the South African Police Service, SAPS, about criminality within their ranks being ignored. The directorate with its more focused and beefed up mandate cannot afford to be crippled by the same challenges. The DA accordingly maintains that increasing the directorate's funding should be a priority for Parliament and government.
The directorate needs to be adequately resourced in order to be effectively focused on what has been described by its director as systemic corruption within the police and the Metro Police Services. The IPID must be able to attack this cancer within certain elements of the law enforcement agency, to quote Mr Beukman.
Parliament has gone to great lengths to ensure the directorate has the teeth to curb rogue police officers. The strengthened legislative mandate must be coupled with more appropriate budgetary commitments. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms A VAN WYK
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Takes: 454, 455 & 456
Mr D J STUBBE
Ms A VAN WYK: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, members of the House, the Acting National Commissioner of Police, Secretary of Police, the Executive Director of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate and senior management of SAPS, policing consists of three broad but key set of activities: visibility and patrol through visible policing programmes, crowd management and investigations.
Investigations are conducted by the detectives. It is generally agreed that the investigation is centrally to the management of crime. If the investigation of crime fails and the perception exists that the criminals are perceived to go unpunished, it can neither be expected that police will be able to reduce crime nor that the social processes that can impact on crime will do so positively.
Minister, you have declared this year as the year of the detectives, and we want to support that. It is a strong belief of the ANC that while we had grown the numbers of the South African Police Service over the last couple of years, we have not been giving adequate attention to the number and challenges of the detective environment, the criminal record centre and forensic science laboratories in the same way.
When one looks at the budget allocation for the detectives, it is clear that this intention is reflected in the Budget as well. The overall programme, Programme 3, increased from R11,96 billion to R13,16 billion in the 2012-13 financial year. The budget for the detectives increased with almost a R1 billion from R7,5 billion to R8,6 billion. The criminal record centre's budget increased from R1,34 billion to R1,51 billion in this financial year.
The hon Chikunga has dealt with the forensic science and laboratory, and I am not going to repeat it here.
Provision has been also made for a significant increase in the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigations -the Hawks. The Budget of the Hawks increase from R1,05 billion to R1,23 billion in this financial year.
We need to ensure that the increases are spent where they will have the greatest impact in improving the performance of the detectives and as such contribute to further bring down the crime figures in South Africa. In the detective environment the increase will not only be used to further increase the number of detectives, but also to provide detectives with the required training. An amount would also be dedicated to improve the performance of the Stock Theft Units. The ANC supports this initiative wholeheartedly. Stock theft leaves subsistence farmers in ruins and can be devastating to commercial farmers. Every effort to improve on the functioning of these units should be supported.
Hon Minister the granted number of detectives within the SAPS is 19 537. The actual number of detectives is 20 985. For a number of years now, we have indicated that we need to establish what the ideal number of detectives is supposed to be. For the first time this year, we were provided with a figure of 26 736. Clearly, we still have a long road to travel before we get to that point, but now at least we have a target to work towards. The ANC will closely monitor the progress made in reaching this goal.
However, if one starts taking a closer look at the number of detectives within the SAPS an interesting picture emerges. The Auditor-General reported in 2000 that in 1998 there were 22 034 detectives more than we have currently. However, in the early 1990s, late 1980s there were in the region of only 7 000 detectives. At some point during the years that followed, uniformed members investigating traffic offences were also counted as detectives. This may explain why we still have older detectives at station level who have not been properly or fully trained as detectives.
Of further interest if one takes a closer look at the numbers, it becomes clear that in fact since 1998 there have not been a significant growth in the detective environment – in reality there was a decline in figures. It raises the question whether the detective environment over the past decade was taken seriously by SAPS management?
Too often, when we visit police stations on our oversight visits, we find detectives at the station carrying 60 to 90 cases, but not being trained at all. What is more, one would find group commanders who have not been fully trained either. But, I believe the most worrying aspect of this is the fact that often Branch Commanders are at stations without them undergoing the required training, neither as detectives, nor as managers. Now, I do not see how one can expect a team of detectives to perform optimally if they are not fully equipped to do the job.
Furthermore, these groups and branch commanders are expected to lead and mentor other investigators while they themselves are still in need of further training. Hon Chairperson, Hon Minister this reality brings us back to the basic issue of appointments made fit for purpose and within properly executed career pathing. The ANC have long argued that proper career pathing within SAPS exists only in the minds of some people within SAPS and in a file or files gathering dust on a shelf somewhere in the Head Quarters.
This plays itself out not only in the detective environment, but manifests itself in the issue of promotions that was addressed by the hon Chikunga in her speech. If proper career pathing did exist, every single police member will know what is required of them in order to move upwards in the organization.
Hon Minister, you have indicated to us the training of detectives that will take place this year, it is welcome. But, it still does not provide us with a clear plan on how the department will go about in reaching its ideal number of detectives. We do not want to see a repetition of simply chasing numbers without the required training and the correct people for the job. The status of detectives – considered to be a low prestige within the SAPS - is often indicated by former detectives who left the service for the private sector as one of the reasons why they have left. In fact, many have indicated that they are financially no better-off outside of the SAPS.
South African Police Service over many years have also lost detectives to the uniformed branches of the police, as that became the only option for upward mobility. In the year of the detectives this is something that we need to address in a focussed and dedicated manner. Detective retention becomes extremely important not only in ensuring we retain well qualified, experienced detectives, but also because the loss of skills means fewer mentors for the new detectives. It impacts on teamwork and adds onto the workload of those experienced detectives remaining behind.
As far back as August 2004, the Division Detective Services requested Career Management in SAPS to investigate the possibility to develop a career path for detectives. Subsequent to that a number of events that led to a Draft Policy for Detectives Career Path took place, but since 2006, the issue has died a silent death.
Hon Minister, this committee and in fact this Parliament, the Auditor-General's office, the Departments of Justice and Constitutional Development and Correctional Services as well as the legal fraternity, but more importantly you yourself, have raised issues pertaining to a skills development programme plans to address poor statement taking and empower investigators, retention of experienced detectives, the high volumes of dockets per detective, the delays in investigations, the high withdrawal rate in court, overcrowding of not only our prisons, but also our police cells by awaiting trial detainees and low conviction rates.
Honourable Minister, the draft plan that exists deals with this; it was developed in the SAPS contextualizing South Africa's unique needs and requirements. It creates horizontally and vertical mobility within the detective service. The strategy addresses the following: retention of expert skills required in the detective environment; improve levels of skills and competency for all investigators; improve service delivery within the detective environment; links career path to remuneration; recognize that careers are more likely to develop within homogenous levels of responsibility, rather than by progressing up a number of steps; and provides opportunity for detective managers to return to operational field.
Hon Minister, this plan takes the detective service out of the 20th century and into the 21st century. It is progressive in nature and it deals with so many of the burning issues and questions in a comprehensive, well thought through and innovative way. Hon Minister, I would like to request you as the Minister of Police, to intervene in this matter. Minister, in the year of the detectives declared so by yourself, ask the department to present to you this plan, but also ask them to explain why no attention was given to its implementation within the South African Police Services since 2006.
The ANC welcomes the inclusion of conviction rates for the detectives. More so, we welcome the alignment of these conviction rates in the way that it is done within the justice department. This is an important improvement and will allow us to have a better idea of the success of the criminal justice system across the different departments. We do believe however, that we still have far too high a number of cases that are closed undetected over a year and that the detective management should find out what is the reasons for this and find solutions for the problem.
Furthermore, we should note that if we want to seriously bring down the crime figures in South Africa, it cannot be done without crime prevention playing a strong role. Prevention will result in fewer cases and will bring down the number of dockets per detective, so as to achieve greater conviction. We must also ensure that detectives at all levels of SAPS are busy with their primary task of investigation and that they are not used by station commissioners to chase arrest rates.
The Criminal Record Centre receives a considerable chunk of the increase in this environment. Apart from the increase in the budget they also receive a further R317 million from the earmarked funds from the criminal justice revamp. This should be used by the CRC to modernise the procedures for updating the records of offenders across the Criminal Justice System.
The ANC believe that the integration of the criminal justice system is not progressing as it should. Billions of rands over the years have been spent for that purpose, but technologically we are not much closer to an integrated information system. You have addressed the issue, hon Minister, when you said that you have asked the Hawks to look at this matter.
The ANC will closely monitor the progress made in this regard "Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,09 May 2012,"[Take-333333456] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][gs].doc"
during this financial year. Between the Criminal Record Centre, the FSL and Police stations, we also want to see a marked improvement in the way that they deal with SAPS 13, or evidence stores. The lack of adherence to process and procedures can lead to seriously compromising the chain of evidence when presented in court.
In so far as Crime Intelligence is concerned, the program, in its open funds, receives a nominal increase. The African National Congress remains concerned about the way that crime intelligence officers are used at station level. Too often they are used as secretaries for meetings or to compile a station's statistics on behalf of the station management. We believe that they should be utilised and play a central role in providing stations with information regarding prevention of crime, but also in terms of investigations. The value of good intelligence information seems not to be understood. A further issue that the ANC believes need attention is a proper value measurement of intelligence reports. It exists in other departments.
What does the 28 145 intelligence reports that is the performance target for this year means? Is it written or oral reports, is it one liner? How do the SAPS know that those reports contribute either to the prevention of crime or the arrest of the suspects? A proper measurement tool will empower such management to not only better manage this environment, but also enable the understanding of the importance of quality intelligence reports in the fight against crime, not only after it happened, but more importantly in preventing it from happening. In this regard we just need to look at the number of public protests that occur and SAPS seemingly caught unaware and unprepared about such protests. If crime intelligence was functioning fully and effectively that should be the exception, not the rule.
Finally Honourable Minister I want to move to the Civilian Secretariat of Police. This will be the last year where the Secretariat will be a cost centre of the SAPS and we welcome that. The Secretariat's budget for the financial year is R63 27 million. As the Secretariat is a personnel intensive organization R45 5 million of the funds will go to the personnel budget. R17 77 million will be spent on the operational budget. As of next year the Secretariat will be a designated department. The Secretariat is in the process of filling the positions that were created as a result of it becoming a designated department. We are expecting much more from the Secretariat in the year and years ahead. We can never see nor allow the Secretariat of Police regressing to the state it was in. This responsibility does not only rest on the incumbent, but on every single person within the Secretariat. The Civilian Secretariat of Police represents the Citizens interest in the SAPS. We are expecting them to contribute in a scientific and professional manner on the policies and procedures of the SAPS so that it positively impacts on the overall fight against crime. We expect the Secretariat to be that organisation whose point of view cannot be ignored, because of the value that it should add to the debate. If we deal with the SAPS budget next year as the committee we want to be able to call the Secretariat and ask them: do you believe the budget is addressing the priorities as set out in policy? We want to know that the work and findings of the monitoring and evaluation unit in the Secretariat are making a difference in the service delivery of the SAPS and is not gathering dust on a shelf. We are looking forward to them, through the Minister, tabling the review of the White Paper on Police so that we can start at last with the complete redrafting of the SAPS Act which is still to a large extend based on the interim constitution.
Honourable Chairperson and Honourable Minister in this House we have a choice it is actually a very simple choice, but also one that depending on your outlook in life can be a very challenging choice. The choice is whether I, and you, want to be part of the solution or whether we simply prefer to add to the challenge by howling and repeating the same accusations, personal insults and empty rhetoric, albeit in the form of sound bites. As ANC, we have made our choice. Our choice is to roll up our sleeves, to put our hands in the dishwater and to start dealing with the dirty dishes. We do not choose to stand in the corner of the kitchen and shout and scream abuse at the dirty dishes hoping that they will sort themselves out.
On the 17th of April 2012, when the Portfolio Committee on Police started its Budget hearings with the Department, the Chairperson, the Honourable Chikunga provided the Committee with the opportunity to engage the Department on the issues of the Head of Crime Intelligence, the Provincial Head of the Hawks in KZN and the Cato Manor issue. Members had the opportunity to put questions to the Department and the Department responded. At the end of the response of the Department the Honourable Chairperson provided each Political Party on the Committee an opportunity to make a statement. On behalf of the ANC I responded to say that no one person or organisation is above the rule of law, that we believe the continuous negative reports on senior police officers is bad for morale in the SAPS and deteriorates the public trust in the Police. That as ANC we want all accusations to be investigated without fear or favour. The ANC would like to see that all of these allegations are fully and thoroughly investigated, that if anyone has a case to answer they be brought before a court of law not a kangaroo court. Interestingly enough, every single Political Party – with the exception of the DA agreed with these sentiments. When the opportunity was presented to them to make a statement the Honourable Kohler Barnard responded that she did not ask to say anything. Why is this? Why is it that when the surname of a suspect is Booysen, Meyer, Tereblanche or van Niekerk, that the Member will be quiet and not say a word, not even asking a question, but when the surname is Shabangu, Mdluli or Lazarus the member will be the first, the loudest and the most persistent? I think the answer is obvious for all to see.
Honourable Chairperson, the ANC repeats itself here, again, today: We expect those bodies that have been tasked with investigating the various allegations including those of the heads of the Hawks in KZN to do so without fear or favour, to do so with haste as we believe that the nature of these reports is negative for the police and undermines our fight against crime. As ANC we want to see that if there is a case to answer – those who have to answer be brought to book: irrespective of whom they are.
Honourable Chairperson it is most properly the most difficult to break I ever been in to sweep because how do you sweep floors. The Honourable Kohler-Barnard today misses a great opportunity to deal with issues that is of real concern to this committee. A committee that is robust in its oversight that will continue to be robust in its oversight in the interest of the people. Real issues that he could have been raised instead he sound like... Time expired]
Mr D J MAYNIER: The hon Kohler-Barnard dealt with the issues...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order hon Member, I did not give an opportunity to raise a point of order can you in future wait until I recognise you. Continue hon Member.
Ms A VAN WYK: Thank you Chairperson, instead the hon Kohler-Barnard sounded like a gramophone Mdluli,Mdluli, Mdluli she acted as if there is no police in place in this Country. I want to know Chairperson where does the thousand of prisoners in our correctional services facilities come from, do they knock at night and say here we are voluntarily we are putting ourselves in prison, who put them there? Is the pity the leader of the DA in Parliament has left because I want to know whether there is a prerequisite for the spokesperson of the DA on Police to have a selective hearing or to be selective in what should be ... Time expired]
The MINISTER OF POLICE / LN//Mia & LAK/ ///tfm/// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Wednesday, 9 May 2012 Take: 457
Ms A VAN WYK
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank the hon members for their contribution.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!
The MINISTER OF POLICE (Mr E N Mthethwa ): The louder the noise, the emptier the vessel. What members have said here has been noted. People have raised a number of issues. Firstly, the issue of crime and corruption regardless of who is involved would be pursued. It really does not matter who the person is. It would have been advisable for hon Kohler-Barnard to have emphasised on that general principle and not to see issues of fighting crime from a narrow and racial point of view. Once you cast that aside, we will know that you are genuine about fighting crime. [Interjections.]
The member has been very silent on the issue of leases this year. I do not know why because her entire speech on last year's Budget Vote was about leases. I do not know whether this still has to do with the issue of raise or that today somebody else is involved. Be that as it may, we do not expect much from that point.
Hon Ramatlakane, we heard what you said, - you complimented the police personnel who work hard. You also raised the issue of crime statistics and manipulation at a specific area in Limpopo. This has happened in the past and people were taken to task. Another point was lack of action on Lieutenant-General Richard Mdluli; the Inspector General of Intelligence, IGI, is busy with that matter. We would like that process to be respected because this is a competent agency of government.
IsiZulu:
Sikuzwile Bab 'uNdlovu ngendaba yokuthi akuphenywe, ikakhulukazi kulaba bezobuChepheshe bezokuXhumana, kanye noPhiko lwezokuSatshalaliswa kweziDingo, SCM. Amaphuzu abalulekile lawo owashilo, Zonke izinto ozishilo zizolandelwa. Kodwa-ke ngifuna ukusho ukuthi kubantu abaqashwayo emaphoyiseni njengamanje, sinohlelo oluthi...
English:
...From Recruitment to Retirement, where we look at the entire Human Resources value chain and say: what is it that we need to do? Where do we need to improve? So that as a result, the kinds of people we are talking about become history.
Hon Groenewald, I would like to you thank you for being here at the end of this Budget Vote because normally I miss you at around this time.
The FF Plus asked to work with us, government works with everybody. We are looking for you but we cannot find you. On the topic of farm murders, a lot of stakeholders are involved, the Trade Union Movement, AgriSouth Africa, everybody is involved. You are standing somewhere very far, in fact, you are across the river but you want to be part of the process. Come closer and be part of the process of fighting crime including crime in farms. [Applause.]
The farms are not only about farmers, there are farm workers and their families; it is a community on its own. I think we will continue looking for you but please come closer. I also noticed that you read a lot of papers these days. The problem with papers is, you will find some truth, untruths, half-truths and so on. You happen to have read the wrong one. Do not depend on the papers; any man who depends entirely on papers is wasting time because you will not get the entire truth in them.
On what the ACDP said, well...
IsiZulu:
...Bab 'uMfundisi siyakuzwa njengoba ukhulumile. Empeleni yilungelo lakho...
English:
It is your right if you do not want to support the Budget Vote. This is the Police Budget Vote, it is not Justice. What happens at National Prosecuting Agency, NPA, nothing to do with this Budget Vote. I think they gave you the wrong speech; they gave you one for Justice instead of the Police. [Laughter.] Chairperson, we invite members to have dinner us after this at the Old Assembly Chamber. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 16:33.
LIM... / END OF TAKE
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