Hansard: NCOP: Questions to the Deputy President, Kgalema Motlanthe

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 07 Mar 2012

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Minutes

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START OF DAY

THURSDAY, 08 MARCH 2012

THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

_______________________

The Council met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 14:00.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP


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START OF DAY

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery agreed that there would be no notices of motion or motions without notice today. I will now proceed with the questions as printed on the Order Paper and I thank the Deputy President for being with us in the House today. We welcome you. Our Chamber will soon be done - it's looking more beautiful than before! We will soon be moving in there - after the Easter holidays.

QUESTION 1


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THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Question 1:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, yes, government is considering the introduction of a number of mechanisms that will ensure that tariffs do not escalate in a manner that has an adverse impact on economic growth and job creation. An interdepartmental team has been established to consider the best approach for determining the next round of electricity tariff increases for Eskom, due to take effect from the beginning of April 2013.

This involves developing a model that seeks to balance the socioeconomic impact of increasing electricity prices, the country's competitiveness, Eskom's financial viability and the necessary policy considerations for implementing the Integrated Resource Plan. The future price path will take into cognisance the competitiveness of the South African economy, based on economically sustainable electricity tariffs that balance macroeconomic and sociopolitical impacts.

It is important that the price path provides the regulatory certainty that is crucial for investment in the power sector. Once the price path has been outlined, there will be certainty for the next 20 years regarding future electricity tariffs, as opposed to the current practice, where tariffs are determined every three years. Further details in this regard can be obtained from the Minister of Energy. I thank you for your attention.

Ms N D NTWANAMBI

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Thank you, Chair.

IsiXhosa:

Ndiyabulela Sekela-Mongameli ngempendulo kwaye le nto yinto esiza kuyidlulisa ebantwini xa siphuma sisiya kwenza umsebenzi wethu ekuhlaleni. Umbuzo wam olandela lowa wokuqala uthi: Ingaba urhulumente uza kuba nalo na igalelo lokuncenda abantu, ingakumbi kwezi solar gysers, njengoko ebesele eqalile u-Eskom? Ezi gyser bezinceda ukuchutha iindleko zombane. Ingaba urhulumente unayo na into azama ukuyenza ukuncedisa le nkqubo ukuba iphinde iqale ekuqaleni, ingakumbi kwezi zindlu zabantu ababefudula bengenanto kuqala?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon member. Yes, indeed, through the Department of Economic Development, there is a drive to get solar panels manufactured locally, as well as to ensure, particularly for poor communities who reside in areas that have good sunshine, not only solar geysers should be supplied but the lighting of their homesteads should also be derived from solar energy. Thank you.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, may I ask the Deputy President through you why Eskom is beginning to talk about a 27% increase on tariffs for this coming year? Is it relevant? Is it fact or is it not in the pipeline, and will there be a political intervention for a reasonable increase for the general public and the economy?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, I am not aware of any 27% increase. As you know, the process is that the National Energy Regulator of South Africa, Nersa, would consider recommendations. In fact, my own information is that, unlike in the past, the idea this time would be to try and spread the tariffs over a five-year period rather than a three-year period. So, that would ensure that the tariff increases are kept at a very low level. That is the information that I have.

Mr G G MOKGORO

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr G G MOKGORO: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Deputy President.

Setswana:

Ke botsa gore re sa ntse re bua ka Eskom, gore Medupe le Kusile, re ka solofela gore di tla tsena leng mo tirisong go tla go thusa ka neelano ya motlakase ya Eskom?

English:

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Will the interpreters there please interpret correctly and swiftly so that we can hear what the members are saying? I am not sure whether the Deputy President got the follow-up question.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, I did.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was trying to follow but I couldn't hear.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The question is about the timeline for Medupi and Kusile - when they will be in commission or come online. My information is that, God willing, if there are no major unnatural or man-made delays, these power stations should come on stream as planned, because construction has been progressing within the set timeline. So, we do not think that there would be any reason to extend the timeline for the commissioning of these new coal-fired power stations. It will be within the set timeline. That is, as we say, Insha-Allah [God willing].

Question 2: DEPUTY PRESIDENT


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QUESTION 1 - The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Question 2:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, this is a question that, correctly speaking, the Minister of Higher Education and Training would be better placed to deal with. However, I'm informed that university fees are determined through each university's admission policy and therefore differ from institution to institution.

The Minister of Higher Education and Training has established the Ministerial committee for the review of funding to universities, which is also tasked with looking into the matter of the student fee increases and the desirability of capping such increases. Once the committee has completed its work, it will make recommendations to the Minister on whether a national policy to regulate university fees should be put in place. Over the years tertiary fees have been increasing as universities try to balance their budgets.

To alleviate the plight of poor students, however, government provides funding to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme to enable poor and academically deserving students to attend universities. These university loans and bursary allocations increased by 27% in the 2012-13 financial year. The total number of poor but academically deserving students assisted was about a 150 000. It is expected that this will increase by 5% annually. The Department of Higher Education and Training is also investigating the feasibility of a central application service. One of the anticipated benefits of such a service will be the standardisation of one application fee for all universities. This will assist poor students in extending their opportunities and choice.

Mr B L MASHILE

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, I just wanted ask a follow-up question to the Deputy President's comments on the standardisation of application fees. There are disparities in the universities. A BA degree at the University of the Western Cape and a BA degree at the University of Pretoria do not cost the same. Is it not necessary to look into that as well, so that there will be comparability of courses in the same curriculum? A BA degree at one university must be more or less the same at another university in the country. At the moment there are a lot of disparities within the same "programme". Is it not necessary for the task team to look into that as well?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: As much as that is a good follow-up question we must bear in mind that the Deputy President did say in his opening that actually this was a question that would be better answered by the relevant department. But I will not disagree if the Deputy President would like to respond.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, indeed, when the Ministerial committee for the review of funding to universities submits its report and considers its recommendations, these are some of disparities that are likely to receive attention. That is why the question arises of whether there is a need to cap the increase of these fees. The key question is really to ensure that access to tertiary education is made easier for all South African citizens, regardless of their social standing or the fortunes of their families.

Mr D B FELDMAN

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, I would just like to hear your thoughts about the strikes on university campuses. One of the issues is the readmission requested by students who had failed. I feel this is an injustice to the newcomers. So, what are your thoughts about the readmission of the students who had failed?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I do know that the Minister of Higher Education and Training is looking at open universities as well, so that where challenges arise of accommodating students who need to repeat, the denial of that opportunity should not result in the termination of their studies. So, they should have options outside of the universities where they would have been registered. They should be able to go into open universities and continue with their studies until they complete them.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, I bear in mind what the Deputy President said at the beginning. However, my question deals with universities making their own decisions on how and what they will charge for registration. Can the Department of Higher Education and Training be prescriptive to universities regarding set registration fees and so on?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is another question that should go directly to the Minister of Education, but you have already made that opening statement.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I think the reason for establishing this Ministerial committee for the review of funding of universities is that it is funding from the fiscus and, as much as is possible, there has to be a more or less standardised fee structure. Differences may arise, for example, in the extent to which each institution does research. Therefore funding may also come from the private, corporate world and so on. But the idea is really to obviate the situation in which some universities become inaccessible, even when they have excess space, simply because of the fees, whereas others are inundated and overloaded because their fees are more reasonable. In other words, the question is: Should we leave that to market-determined fees only or should we try to influence that? Of course, this would not happen without consultation and discussions with the authorities in charge of these institutions.

Question 3 –THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT


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QUESTION 2 –THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Question 3:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, since 1994 we have strived to build capacity and to improve information because these are the requirements facing policy-makers and the implementers of programmes and projects. We were tasked with developing and implementing policy while strengthening our own capacity and developing systems. The combination of these factors thus put pressure on the pace of service delivery to poor communities.

The House will recall that the Department in The Presidency responsible for Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, as well as Administration was established in 2009, specifically to focus on the performance of the public sector. All Ministers driving priority programmes, including antipoverty programmes, have committed themselves to clear targets over the five-year-term of this government. The responsible Ministers report every quarter to the President and Cabinet on progress made against these targets. From time to time, the Department in The Presidency: Performance Monitoring and Evaluation, as well as Administration publishes reports which indicate the degree of progress made. These are significant improvements in our monitoring and evaluation systems.

While The Presidency is the custodian of the government-wide monitoring and evaluation system as a whole, the National Treasury has published the Framework for Programme Performance Information and Statistics SA has published the South African Statistical Quality Framework to provide policy frameworks for programme performance information and social, economic and demographic statistics.

The National Evaluation Policy Framework, which was approved by Cabinet in November 2011, provides the next essential part of the government-wide monitoring and evaluation system, setting out the basis for government-wide evaluation, focusing on our priority areas. It should contribute to the establishment of a culture of continuous improvement in service delivery.

With these initiatives, I am confident that we are on the right path and that the challenges encountered by the Public Service Commission in the course of the audit process will soon be a thing of the past.

Mr D B FELDMAN

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chairperson, arising out of the hon Deputy President's reply, even though the government has adopted a multiphase but fragmented response to deal with the exclusion of the majority of the poor, poverty and inequalities are still endemic and wreaking havoc. Does the Deputy President see the necessity to adopt the use of a standardised system of norms, standards and indicators that can be easily accessed for monitoring and evaluating the inclusivity and impact in a fight against poverty and inequalities? If so, Deputy President, what are the relevant suggestions?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed, it is desirable to have clearly standardised targets as well as measurements, for that is the only possible way to monitor and evaluate whether matters, targets and timelines are properly set and so on. That would enable us to easily manage the collection of data and, as we implement the collected data, would then serve as the basis and tools for even more efficient planning. Monitoring will also assist in situations where there is deviation, problems or slackness, so that these would become detectable as early as possible and could be corrected before it is too late. That is we have this government-wide monitoring and evaluation system. There is a dedicated Ministry to do that.

In fact, just to share with you, the outcomes that the Cabinet agreed to, we discovered, are now easy to accomplish. The Cabinet has agreed that the department should now up the areas that need to be measured and evaluated because the idea is to attend to and solve problems rather than just tick the boxes. So, now that the routine of accounting in that fashion has been established, it has been felt that it should be extended to cover other areas. That is the only way we will be able to attend to problems that affect poor communities and so on. And that, of course, also includes issues of infrastructure and so on.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, we proceed. Don't wake up after the time, Mr Worth. [Laughter.] Alright, you are now awake. I can give you time to ask your question.

Mr D A WORTH

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr D A WORTH: [Laughter.] Chairperson, through you to the hon Deputy President, yesterday in the same House I read out a notice of a motion with regard to the latest Public Service Commission Report. They reported high levels of corruption among local municipalities and certain government departments. If I recall correctly - I haven't got it here – they also stated something like a 360% increase over the figure from 2010. Surely, this must affect service delivery and poverty reduction projects, as this money has been corruptly taken. But the report also stated that very little effective action had been taken to hold these people to account. What is your opinion on that, hon Deputy President?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is a well-crafted question put indirectly, so it's okay.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, any evidence of the diversion of funds from the purpose for which public funds ought to be utilised is worrying and it is something that we should be able to nip in the bud. When the Public Service Commission Report reveals such matters, that very report ought to be the basis for the corrective measures to be taken. We've got to go out and find out which gaps were used to siphon off and divert resources, ensure that there is no repeat and, where possible, recover those resources. That is why the Asset Forfeiture Unit and Special Investigating Unit exist. Only when people know that they can't get away with it will the temptation be eliminated. [Applause.]

QUESTION 4 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT


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QUESTION 3 - THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Question 4:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, hon De Villiers. I have noticed that in the first part of your question reference is made to both the board and the council. I assume that you are specifically referring to the work of the council, which is a multistakeholder advisory platform where decisions are made and implementation monitored. Thus, I will confine my reply to the SA National Aids Council, SANAC, which I chair.

SANAC holds up to four meetings annually. Meetings are held in the provinces to enable the council to engage with the Provincial Aids Councils and to consider, among other things, provincial reports on the implementation of HIV and TB-related programmes, as defined in the National Strategic Plan for HIV and Aids and Sexually Transmitted Infections.

SANAC is made up of government and 19 civil society sectors. Each sector sends three representatives to attend council meetings. Attendance at each meeting is well over 95% and each meeting allows for engagement with the community, through a community dialogue or a visit to a health facility. This approach allows the national councilto experience policy in action and to support and acknowledge health workers at the coalface of service delivery.

All nine provinces have an established Provincial Council on Aids and premiers lead these provincial structures. In some cases, an MEC has been delegated the responsibility to perform this function by the respective premier. The Provincial Aids Council monitors their performance against agreed targets, while the national structure executes an overarching monitoring function in accordance with its mandate as approved by Cabinet.

SANAC has full representation from the stakeholders described above. The council is supported by a secretariat, which is being strengthened through the appointment of skilled persons, such as the chief financial officer and the chief executive officer.

In the past years, SANAC has achieved a number of significant milestones, notably the launch and successful execution of the world's largest HIV counselling and testing campaign, with over 15 million people tested for HIV and a significant number screened for TB. The Council also developed and launched the new National Strategic Plan for HIV, TB and Sexually Transmitted Infections from 2012 to 2016, through an extensive consultativeprocess.

On 24 March 2012, which is World TB Day, the national implementation plan for the national strategic plan 2012-16 will be launched. We expect all stakeholders, communities and Members of Parliament to rally behind this important initiative, so that we can meet our target of reducing new infections by half.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: My follow-up question to the Deputy President is in connection with the structures in the provinces. Are you, as the chairperson, satisfied with the work done by and the responsibilities of those structures in the different provinces? If not, which provinces?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon De Villiers, yes, indeed, we are satisfied with the Provincial Aids Councils. We had difficulties in one province, the Free State, in the past and we took the plenary meeting to the Free State. All stakeholders were present and the problem was resolved. The problem had arisen because the premier had delegated someone who was not half as active as he ought to have been and civil society stakeholders felt left out of programmes. That was corrected. For now, all the provinces seem to be working very well.

QUESTION 5 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

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QUESTION 4 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

QUESTION 5

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, as you would no doubt be aware, SANAC has launched the National Strategic Plan 2012-16. Among other things, the strategic plan seeks to extend provision of treatment so that we can arrest mortality rates and offer our people an opportunity to live longer, more productive lives.

SANAC has yet to receive a full briefing about project Ke Tla Phela, which means "I will survive" in Sesotho. It is a joint venture between the state-owned Pelchem Property Limited and Lonza Group Limited, a Swiss pharmaceutical company. SANAC will not get involved in the project, since its mandate is confined to policy advice and oversight.

Ke Tla Phela is a welcome development because it supports our key National Strategic Plan objective, which is to provide affordable treatment. Overall, this project will benefit the entire country because of the availability of antiretrovirals at low prices.

QUESTION 6 - THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

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QUESTION 5 - THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Question 6:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members, according to the National Treasury, the estimated impact of the 2010 Federation International Football Association, Fifa, World Cup was in the region of R10,5 billion, which amounts to 0,38% of gross domestic product, GDP. The overall impact on the real GDP level over the period from 2007 to 2013 was estimated to be 0,25%.

More than 309 000 tourists arrived in South Africa for the primary purpose of attending the 2010 Fifa World Cup. A survey conducted by the national Department of Tourism and SA Tourism shows that tourists were extremely satisfied with their experience in the country and that they would highly recommend the destination to friends and family. The benefits of the World Cup will thus be enjoyed for many years to come.

Fifa made a total of US$100 million available to the SA Football Association, Safa, as a legacy of the 2010 Fifa World Cup. I am informed that in the region of US$30 million has been used by Safa for infrastructure, buses and World Cup preparations. The remaining US$70 million will be placed in the 2010 Fifa World Cup Legacy Trust.

This trust consists of eight members, including one representative of government from the Department of Sport and Recreation. The trust will be used for the following purposes: football development, which includes development programmes for coaches, administrators, referees and technical officials; the setting up of football academies, facilities and equipment; education, which will include educational, life skills and leadership programmes through Football for Youth and communities; bursaries for football players, coaches, referees and administrators; health promotion, which will include healthy lifestyle programmes through Football for Youth and communities; the training of specialists, medical personnel for football teams; research and development on football-related health matters; and humanitarian courses, which will include the consideration to fund football communities struck by tragedy or disaster.

I'm informed that to date Fifa has transferred R280 million to the Legacy Trust and that the trust will become operational in April 2012. The main beneficiaries of the fund, according to the policy of the trust, will be Safa's structures at national, provincial, regional and local levels. In addition, associate members, like tertiary institutions, schools and football for persons with disability, as well as organised supporter groups will also be eligible for funding. However, all these institutions must be registered as public benefit organisations. Apparently, funding will be allocated on an application basis. All project proposals will be considered against set criteria and the board of the trust will make the final decisions on which projects are funded. More details can be obtained from the Minister of Sport and Recreation.

Mrs B L ABRAHAMS

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mrs B L ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, you haven't mentioned the stadiums. I would like to know who manages these stadiums, because while we were in the process of getting the stadiums ready, it was said that some of the communities - for instance, in the province I am from, Orlando Stadium - people like the SA Soccer Legends, Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates would actually be managing parts of these projects as community development projects. I would also like to know if the SA Soccer Legends - the guys who should actually be driving it - are part and parcel of this because mention was made of these projects and programmes going into schools, especially as holiday programmes. But 2010 has come and gone, and we haven't seen anything so far. I heard you say they would be available in April 2012.

Regarding hospitality, so many of our communities went out there and really got into tourism and everything - yes, this relates to 2010 - and they haven't benefited. How do we actually come around and help communities that pumped in a lot of money because they were told the World Cup needed more accommodation and all that. They are still out there, greatly in debt. How do we assist them?

Regarding the community projects, I'm happy to hear that people with disabilities will be benefiting. What sorts of projects are in the pipeline for them?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You have asked many follow-up questions at once.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Some of your questions are very specific, so I will not have answers for them. But let me start off with the role of the SA Soccer Legends, as well as that of soccer teams such as Orlando Pirates and Kaizer Chiefs, as you said, in managing the stadiums. My information in this regard is that a company was established for managing these stadiums and it doesn't include or involve the SA Soccer Legends or the soccer teams you mentioned. It's a private company. I'm not sure of the exact relationship between this company and the local authorities, as well as with Safa. I do know that even at the headquarters of Safa, this is a matter that still needs to be resolved because Soccer City was constructed on land belonging to the Johannesburg Metro. The exact ownership is still being contested between the Johannesburg Metro, Safa and FNB, which originally constructed Soccer City.

The SA Soccer Legends, as I understand, consists of former professional footballers who have been organised into a body that now conducts soccer clinics in schools. I'm aware that in some Soweto schools, a soccer legend has been attached to each school. A similar programme is running in townships outside Pretoria.

In my view, the costs incurred by private citizens in anticipation of opportunities during the Fifa World Cup can only be offset through tourism – if we get tourists to go to those areas. Actually, I know that the Department of Tourism as well as SA Tourism are more than keen to make the data available and to advertise such venues to tourists so that they will use such facilities whenever they are in those areas, cities or townships.

Mr S D MONTSITSI

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Deputy President if, as a former professional soccer player and a legend in his own right, he is contemplating joining the league of legends and participating in the legends committee in future. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I'm sure hon Montsitsi is exaggerating. I was playing football in prison. I'm sure you will understand that the prison population is very small. So, we weren't professionals, as it were.

Yes, I do interact with the South African Soccer Legends on an ongoing basis. They keep me posted on the progress they are making. Whenever they experience challenges, they share those with me. I've assisted in pulling them together in the past because some of them are people who have no income stream whatsoever. So, I was able to assist them in pulling together some of their meetings. So, I do stay in touch with them but I'm not a member. I'm just a supporter of the legends.

Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you, that was my question. I wanted to ask the Deputy President if he had resigned because I could fill his space. [Laughter.]

Mr K A SINCLAIR

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Mr D V BLOEM

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, now that we have a sort of bird's eye view of the benefits of the 2010 Soccer World Cup and the financial benefits, would you agree that in the final instance the nontangible benefits, like nation-building and exposure for South Africa in the broader world, outweighed the financial benefits for the South African society and economy?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed, hon Sinclair, I do agree that the benefits of the privilege of hosting this Fifa World Cup - nonmonetary benefits, such as creating or enhancing national cohesion and infusing a sense of pride in all of us as South Africans - far outweigh the financial benefits.

As Cabinet, we also learned a lesson from how the local organising committee was able to cut through bureaucratic obstacles in the three spheres of government - national, provincial and local - in order to deliver on megaprojects within set timelines. It is that lesson that we are determined to employ and apply in the infrastructure programme.

The Council adjourned at 14:50.


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