Hansard: Approppriation Bill: Debate on Vote No 17 — Higher Education and Training
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 23 Apr 2012
Summary
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 339, 340 & 341
START OF DAY
TUESDAY, 24 APRIL 2012
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – CHAMBER OF THE OLD ASSEMBLY
APPROPRIATION BILL
Debate on Vote No 17 - Higher Education and Training:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP:
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING (Dr B E Nzimande ):
**Problem with sound**
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Takes: 341A & 342
**First part of Mr Malale's speech – problem with sound** "Old Assembly Main", Unrevised Hansard,26 Apr 2012,"Take 342 [Old Assembly Main].doc"
"Old Assembly Main", Unrevised Hansard,24 Apr M I Malale's speech – problem with sound**2012,"[Take-333333342] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
C/W: We will not tolerate corruption, incompetence... 14:33:55
Mr M I MALALE: We will not tolerate corruption, incompetence and alarmingmediocrity in institutional governance and management at all levels. We will elevate transparency and greater accountability in all institutions that account to this committee. We welcome and support this budget and we will give the necessary support that the Minister and the department require from the committee. That also includes supporting all our institutions towards the realisation of a single, coherent, differentiated and highly articulate post-school education and training system.
The portfolio committee constitutes a diverse but strong political polity. We support this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Dr A LOTRIET
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 342
Mr M I MALALE
Dr A LOTRIET: Chairperson, the DA's vision for higher education and training is of a system that equips South Africans with the knowledge and skills they need to fulfil their true potential. It is a system that consists of committed and professional lecturers who can deliver quality education. It is a system that will facilitate a shift to a knowledge-based economy, and that can deliver the skills necessary to boost productivity and incomes.
This is vital if we are to encourage economic growth and job creation and deliver opportunities for all South Africans. The Higher Education and Training budget must be read in this vision and the proposals contained in the National Development Plan, NDP, - keeping this in mind. They are important beacons to guide us towards the creation of a better and stronger system. However, this budget must also be read taking into account the realities of our present situation. It also has to be read in the context of skills shortages and a basic education system that leaves much to be desired, with learners ill-equipped to perform in higher education and training.
In the light of this, the announcement of billions of rands over the next three years for the refurbishment and building of new Further Education and Training, FET, colleges, is welcome news and does indicate that these colleges are an important component of the higher education and training sector. This allocation will indeed contribute to alleviating the problems experienced by the colleges regarding spatial constraints and the greater demand and emphasis on access.
However, access does not necessarily lead to success and access without success will not address the country's demands for well-skilled employees. Infrastructure, although very important, does not guarantee quality teaching and learning. If one looks at the figures provided to the portfolio committee, in terms of the performance levels at FET colleges, it is clear that there are serious problems with teaching and learning in the FET sector. Pass rates of between 16% and 22% for mathematics, all the certification rate almost below 40%, does not augur well for the future of these students and for reaching the vision as set out in the NDP.
Although the department's annual performance plan makes provision for the training of lecturers, serious attention will have to be given to the actual quality of the training of these lecturers. In order to meet the vision of a quality education system, in which schools have globally competitive literacy and numeracy standards and 80% of every cohort of learners successfully complete 12 years of schooling, the quality of teacher training has to be improved. One of the ways of improving this is focusing on the reopening of teacher training colleges. The question one still has to ask is whether or not the department is really serious about this.
The Minister has said today that they will be opened and mentioned a few. We have been hearing promises about the reopening of these colleges for a number of years. In April 2008, headlines read, "Pandor confirms plans to reopen teacher training colleges." The reopening was even part of the ANC election manifesto in 2009. In May 2010, the Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training was informed that the matter is being dealt with and in April 2011, the New Age reported that the Minister announced that teacher colleges were to reopen. Again in April 2012, we heard that this was going to happen and today we heard it again. In the interest of the education of our children and future students, the South African people deserve a clear answer about whether or not it is going to happen, if there is a comprehensive plan and not only a few examples, and what the specific time frame is?
It is encouraging that there is an increase in the financial support for poor students. It is indeed in the interest of the country that students who are academically deserving, but who do not have the financial means to study, be assisted by the National Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS. Not only does this contribute to the wellbeing of the individual student, but it also has a ripple effect on the community and economy of the country. Access to higher education and training is, arguably, one of the best mechanisms to eradicate poverty and narrow the gap between rich and poor.
However, it is important to note that the system as it functions at the moment does lead to some unfortunate consequences. On the side of the students, there is a problem that because of the great number of financially needy students, universities in an effort to assist as many as possible, give only partial financial assistance to students. This means that students are still left with finding ways to fund their reminder of their study fees, leaving them with debt, and in many instances these students do not continue with their studies, which is an absolute tragedy not only for the students personally, but also for the country. Many universities try to accommodate these students, but in the end they cannot run into a deficit and they too have to balance their books.
An additional problem that will have to be addresses sooner than later, relates to those students who, in terms of the current means test, do not qualify for financial assistance. These are students whose parents earn above the threshold to qualify for NSFAS, but who do not earn enough to qualify for loans at other financial institutions. The question is, what becomes of these students?
Although the increase in funding for NSFAS is welcomed and appreciated, it is still insufficient to provide access to higher education and training at the levels the country requires. What is welcoming is the recent report on student accommodation. This is a serious problem and besides the shortages of accommodation at the different higher education institutions, the exploitation of students in private off-campus accommodation is shocking and unacceptable. This is a sad state of affairs and it was again highlighted this past weekend in the media.
Not only is proper and safe accommodation a problem, but the fact that many students also go hungry; this is extremely disturbing. In this regard, I would like to congratulate the Vice Chancellor of the Free State University, Professor Jonathan Jansen, with his No Student Hungry, NSH, programme. This is the kind of initiative that shows that the community cares for our students. This is indeed the kind of programme and initiative that could and should be replicated across the country.
The funding of universities is another point of concern. It is important that the greater emphasis on access should not place financial burdens on higher education institutions that they cannot absorb because their funds have been exhausted. This could lead to irreparable harm to our university system with consequences for sustained economic growth and development.
A worrying feature of higher education at the moment is the number of higher education institutions where there are governance and management problems. From the reply to a parliamentary question in this regard, it seems as if the reason for these problems relates to the councils at these institutions. It is, therefore, extremely important that the councils at the different higher education institutions have the requisite capacity, in terms of knowledge and expertise, to fulfil their fiduciary functions.
The department will also have to ensure that the necessary early warning systems are in place to rather take corrective or remedial measures before situations take on crisis proportions. The question, Mr Minister, is whether or not many of these problems could not have been detected earlier by means of a thorough analysis of the reports that these institutions submit to your department. Was there no indication that processes and procedures were not being followed? The consequences of a poorly-governed and managed institution do not only have an effect on management and the staff, but they have a negative knock-on effect on students, their performance, their future and the institution's standing in society.
I would, however, want to raise a caveat that the governance problems experienced at some of these institutions should not pave the way for a process to reduce university autonomy. University autonomy and academic freedom are important pillars of a democratic society such as our own. It is going to require tough decisions and an unwavering commitment to quality education if we are to build a higher education and training system that can truly offer South Africans the knowledge and skills they need to build a better, brighter future. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B M BHANGA / Mpho/ UNH (Checked) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 343
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,24 Apr 2012,"[Take-333333343] [Old Assembly Main][90P-4-082A][nm].doc"
Dr A LOTRIET
Mr B M BHANGA: Minister, I dedicate this speech to one of our own comrades, Chris Hani, a servant of the people of the world and a true communist to the end. Bra Chris fought for the people's education and for people's power. Hon members, today what he fought for many years still remain a pipe dream.
Minister, your speech might be worded nicely but we have to account for the past years. It is a shame that after 17 years the department has failed Hani's vision of the creation of true universities of the people - institutions which will be in the frontline in changing the lives of the poor and the marginalized. We still have the untouchable institutions. This government has failed to build new universities for the past 17 years which will articulate the views of a new South Africa and the liberation of all our people.
When the Afrikaners' government took over power they built Afrikaner universities to articulate their philosophy and ideology. Institutions like former Randse Afrikaanse Universiteit, RAU, University of the Free State, UOFS, University of Stellenbosch and Tuks. What can we be proud of in higher education under your leadership? The department has once more failed Chris' dream of a people university for people's power, a Mabhida, Govin Mbeki and Brian Fischer type of a university.
Cope wish that the proposed two new universities will not be like the all failed government departments or institutions to be used to dispatch patronage and corruption but successful institutions of choice for our students. Let's build two new universities to emulate the values of Moses Kotane, Robert Sobukwe and Beyers Naude type of universities, excelling in research and the green economy.
Hani's children still await a free and compulsory education as you promised in your government. Financial constraints are barriers to access to tertiary education. We are told that the decline in state funding is a global phenomenon. What is the government doing to mitigate the global phenomenon?
Brazil is planning to take a quantum leap and award 75 000 scholarships to students to study abroad. China alone had 127 000 and India 100 000. What do we have as South Africa abroad?
However, we agree with your department notion of building the next generation of academics as an urgent need in our country. However, we must make an assessment on the role of the old generation of academics, the current generation of academics and define the next generation of academics once you did constitute. We must build and lay a foundation attractive to our students to come to the academia.
We can't build a winning nation without a properly prepared academia of the people that will serve constructively and develop difficult questions for the nation and provide answers to the nation. We must build a type of an academia of the former President Thabo Mbeki's generation of academics.
We hear and read a lot about the possible role in Further Education and Training, FET colleges, errand skills. We also heard President Zuma making an announcement of R2,5 billion. Minister, our question is that what kind of quality of these FETs education? We know that the Minister continued to redirect our kids but our question is that how many students in your department and government departments from FETs are employed by your own government? Our students will never have confidence to FET education as long as all these government departments do not employ students from FET colleges. The curriculum vitaes, CVs, of the poor students are put aside by the very same department and your office.
Minister, Cope believes that it is terrible in the training sector. People are at odds with Sector Education and Training Authority, Setas and the management accusing them of not giving the government value for money. On the other hand, Minister, you are threatened with law suits for failing to address serious training problem especially in the electricity sector. We want you to account on the performance in the Seta area.
Furthermore, you are always claiming that our students do not live in conducive environment. You have failed for 17 years to respond to the call of the student movements to build better accommodation for our students. Walter Sisulu and Fort Hare continue to coaccommodate people in unhygienic condition. Your government for 17 years has failed to provide the solution. You are only giving us a report in that regard.
You are continually announcing in this House that you are going to have a central registration point. Does your government or your department have capacity to run a central administration point? What you are trying to do is it not going to temper with the independency of some of these institutions? We are calling you as Cope to give us a better budget. Cope might accept your budget but we think... [Interjections.]
Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want to check whether is it parliamentary that the hon Bhanga addresses the Minister instead of addressing the Chairperson and keep on pointing at the Minister?
Mr B M BHANGA: Chair and Minister, in closing our people and South Africans need an institution that will capacitate some members of this other side to be able to be patient and listen to the new generation of academics. [Applauds.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Takes: 343 & 344
Mr B M BHANGA
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and colleagues. I'm not too sure what prompted the hon Minister some time back to refer to opposition parties as an ideological third force bent on destroying democracy. [Laughter.] Perhaps this will be the correct platform for the hon Minister to expand on such a statement because to me it sounds really bizarre.
The Minister would agree with me that it is critical that we as an opposition properly scrutinize every cent that our government spends on higher education, but more importantly it is important to ask whether the planned expenditure will meet the planned performance objectives in line with the principles and values as set out in the White Paper on Higher Education.
This budget has its aim to support the development of a quality higher education and vocational education sector. Furthermore, it aims to promote access to higher education and vocational skills development opportunities.
Hon Minister, the question is, do we meet these targets with this budget? The answer is partly, yes. In trying to address the critical problem of access to higher education faced by many disadvantaged young people, the IFP welcomes the following expenditure: one, the increase in transfers to higher education institutions; two, the Further Education and Training, FET, colleges' conditional grant; and three, a donor-funding allocation of R30 million.
However, the IFP is of the view that in order to achieve a successful higher education system in South Africa we need to embark on a massive institutional and infrastructure renewal at universities in order to deliver high quality teaching and learning environments.
In highlighting the many crisis faced by the higher education system a recent report by L'Ange, which visited about 22 residential universities and their 50 campuses, found that some students are starving and that many go for days without meals while living in accommodations that is squalid. This is of particular concern. In this regard, the IFP therefore welcomes the additional R850 million allocated to improving university infrastructure including student accommodation facilities.
However, despite the positive increase in spending outlined in this budget in the key priority areas a number of fundamental problems and weaknesses still afflict the higher education system. I will mention but a few.
Firstly, despite new plans, policies and goals, the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, remains a cause for concern. The list of problem areas is well known. For instance, the NSFAS has not been able to widen the definition of students who are eligible for student financial aid. They have not been able to streamline the application processes so that money reaches students quickly and easily. NSFAS has not been able to introduce a modern system to manage the billions of rand that it distributes.
Secondly, there is the quality of our system. Our education system, despite receiving a large chunk of our national spending, has still not delivered a quality higher education that will address our critical skills shortage. This is due to a number of reasons. The IFP supports the views of Higher Education SA, Hesa, that the following areas still remain of grave concern. One, the academic quality of school leavers. Hesa has registered its concern with the overall levels of ...
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Snell): Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: [Inaudible.] ... to higher education study of our education leavers.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Snell): Thank you, hon member.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Is my time finished? [Laughter.]
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Snell): Hlala phansi please, hon member!
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: The IFP will support this budget. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S M MAYATULA /NN /GC /TH//nvs / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 344
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mr S M MAYATULA: Hon Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister and members, my topic for today is governance and management of institutions of higher learning. I would like to dedicate it to all those council members, managers, academics, students and other stakeholders who have committed themselves to the betterment and improvement of institutions of higher learning.
Before I was retrenched from retirement, I was privileged to be one of the ministerial appointees to a university council. One could not help but feel the determination of the ANC-led government – through its Minister, comrade Nzimande – to do everything in its power to help the historically disadvantaged institutions, HDIs, to catch up with the historically advantaged institutions, HAIs.
Even in today's budget, of the R3,8 billion set aside for infrastructure, R1,6 billion will go to seven HDIs. What more can the ANC-led government do to show its commitment to level the higher education playing field?
Unfortunately, the implementation of these programmes depends on individual institutions led by their governing councils. According to White Paper 3, councils are the highest decision-making bodies of public institutions. They are responsible for the good order and governance of institutions. They are responsible for an in institution's financial policies, performance, quality and reputation. Councils ought not to be involved in the day-to-day management of institutions as that is the responsibility of their executive management, led by the vice chancellor, rector or principal.
Unfortunately, the experience on the ground is different. The Soudien Report, of November 2008, had this to say, and I quote:
It became clear in the course of the institutional visits that, with a few exceptions, the leadership role of council was limited if not nonexistent. Indeed, the overriding impression is of councils that have a prescribed vision, provide little or no leadership and strategic direction and have weak management accountability measures in place. In short, they have abdicated their leadership role to management and seem to have, in the main, become conveyor belts for ratifying policies submitted by management. This was graphically portrayed by constituencies in one institution, where [one] claimed that 'Council was owned by management.'
On 2 December 2010, I was privileged to be one of the Ministerial Council appointees, who was invited to meet the hon Minister. He drew our attention to the Higher Education Summit that was held at the Cape Peninsula University of Technology, CPUT, in April 2010. Its recommendations, amongst others, are as follows:
The establishment of a stakeholder forum; developing a charter on teaching and learning; the recapitalisation of HDIs; the development of African languages as academic languages; and ensuring a commitment to good governance.
The Minister went on to say:
A particular important recommendation from the Summit with respect to councils was that of ensuring a commitment to good governance – especially important to eliminate all corruption and cronyism in universities. Not only do these things result in the loss of valuable resources which should be used for educational purposes and strengthening institutions, but many of these disruptions at universities also appear to have corrupt practises at their root. Energies of some managers, other staff and even some council members appear to have been put into securing tenders or getting access to resources for personal enrichment. Such practices are a scourge, not only on our universities but also on our country as a whole.
The following were some of the observations on sloppy governance:
About five task teams were sent to different universities in 2010. Currently, we have three universities under administration, namely the University of Zululand, Tshwane University of Technology and Walter Sisulu University; and annual reports are glossy with less content of what is really going on in the universities, namely financial mismanagement, poor management and administration.
On the University of Zululand, the report of the independent assessor had this to say:
Most complaints heard from stakeholders emphasise the ineffectiveness of council to the point that there is no longer a trust relationship between council and most stakeholders. It is obvious that council operates in a world of its own, not recognising the collapse of systems and the maladministration of a serious nature that undermines the effective functioning of the university.
He further reports:
In 2009, the Independent Electoral Commission – which was the body responsible for monitoring elections – fell into disfavour. The impasse led to student protests which resulted in damage to property to the value of R8 million and the death of a student.
Of the wanton destruction of university property, another incident – which took place in August 2011, at the University of Fort Hare, under my watch as a Council member – becomes relevant. Higher Education SA, Hesa, had this to say about that incident:
In less than a month, another outbreak of student violence has taken place at one of our universities, this time at the University of Fort Hare. Again it has been accompanied by the destruction of university property, intimidation, the forced removal of students from classrooms as well as the holding hostage of a staff member. Hesa condemns the violence, intimidation and damage to university property that has accompanied both these protest actions.
In our democratic country, various structures have a constitutional right to protest. They have God-given emotions and the right to be feel anger, but I find it difficult to understand why this anger should be accompanied by the destruction of property. [Applause.]
Yes, during our student days in the 1960s and seventies, we went about burning and destroying property, but our excuse was that we had no platform from which to discuss our issues. We were treated like animals in the country of our birth. Surely that is not the case today. Our students have legitimate Student Representative Councils, SRCs, they sit on a number of university structures, including the Institutional Forum and the council itself. We also have the Chapter 9 institutions to which they can turn if they are not satisfied.
There cannot be even a single excuse for the wanton destruction of university property. [Applause.] The irony is that these acts of vandalism drive away potential donors willing to sponsor these poor institutions. Who can blame them?
I will end with the University of Zululand assessor's advice. He said,
... the success or failure of the university hinges on strict adherence to principles of good governance and a clear delineation of roles between Council and management.
I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING /TH//nvs / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 345
Ms S M MAYATHULA
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: House Chair, I would like to acknowledge the presence of the Minister and to thank him and all our officials for the ongoing support. Hon members, I think a lot has been said about the Budget that has been allocated, I will not repeat that, but I just want to refer briefly to the premises upon which we present our programme of action and the Budget Vote for the current year.
I think the hon member from the DA did make mention to the New Growth Path, GDP, I will also make reference to the Industrial Policy Action that whatever we do; we aim at producing learners who will be able to respond to the challenges of a phase or the needs of labour markets.
In my debate, hon members, I want to focus on one area of our programme of action; that is the realisation of social inclusion in the post education and training system. In terms of our budget allocation, we see an increase of about R2 million this year compared to last year, where it was from R2,496 to R4,494 million during the current year.
Hon members, the premise upon which we look at the social inclusion principle in our education landscape emanates from what was said in the Freedom Charter that "The doors of learning and of culture shall be opened," and today we still remain committed to that. As we deal with the question of transformation, our position is simple: we expect, accept and respect the autonomy of universities. Our interpretation is, however, opposed to the current position of disconnected institutions.
We expect our institutions to be located in a context and be responsive to developmental needs of society. Our understanding is that a university has three elements or dimensions: teaching, research and community engagement. It is therefore important to maintain a balance between institutional autonomy and public accountability. Universities are supported by public funds and government have a duty to monitor the use of public funds and respond to the needs of society.
In my input, hon Chair, I look at three areas as articulated in the NSDS III which is our founding policy document, that is the: transformation issues, HIV/Aids is one area that is funded by the department, which is one of the government's national priorities and as the sector of Higher Education and Training. We said last year, we are participating on the First Things First Campaign which is a very strategic outreach project for our university students. During the academic year, 23 000 students were tested for HIV/Aids in 2011 and in 2012 we hope to increase the Campaign and to extend it to our FET Colleges as well. The number of people who are responding clearly points to a need of enhancing our capacity of campus health wellbeing.
Another area - although the Minister touched on it - which I think is important to mention is the question of gender; it is the core area in the area of transformation. We see the increase in the number of female students, but we certainly do believe that a lot more needs to be done in the area of Masters and Doctoral students, especially when it comes to women. The department will be increasing support and have a special scholarship programme specifically earmarked for women. In the area of research, post Masters and Doctoral degrees, for people to be researchers and innovators, it calls for a special investment. We are closely monitoring the number of women, in particular, who are applying at that level and through support, we hope many more women will gradually bring about the balance.
The other area which we will be looking at as the form of promoting an Inclusive Education System is the area of disability. The department has committed itself to the development of guidelines for facilitating inclusion of students with disabilities. The department will partner with the National Institutes for the Deaf, NID, to pilot a model for the training of deaf people. A total investment of R76 million over a three year period will allow the NID to increase its intake by 40 students to 120 on an annual basis.
Regarding the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, grant of R3,4 billion, excluding FET Colleges, R63 million is allocated to students with disabilities for bursaries and supporting aids in the financial year. We all know, hon members, how important it is in this country to enhance our effort in this area, as many of our disabled people have been marginalised.
Another area, in the form of transformation, which we are continuously looking at, is the area of a rural-urban dichotomy within our education system. We all know the serious challenges that are faced by our young people in rural areas, multiple problems, but through our outreach projects - the Minister calls them road shows, I call them education indaba.
We visited quite a number of areas and we have statistics as to the number of people who are benefiting from that. Through our career exhibitions, that the Minister referred to earlier on, many more young people from rural areas have come forward, hence you see the number of intake even in our FET Colleges that was referred to earlier.
As part of the transformation, we need to say something about the new college model that will deliver education in the system, where we look at alignment and curriculum articulation, starting at the lowest level, ensuring that a person is able to migrate from a community college, FET College, universities, and grow up as the need arises and opportunities avail themselves.
I have heard a lot of concerns about the FET colleges, but I would just like the hon members to understand that we all have to commit ourselves as we did when we were establishing universities, which are today world class. We have to put more resources, coordinate our efforts, collaborate and gradually ensure that those institutions are academically acceptable.
Regarding, historically disadvantaged universities, the announced budget allocations are really aimed at ensuring that we turn the situation around, looking at all fronts, starting with infrastructure and academic architecture is very important at all levels including research.
The use of Information and Communications Technology, ICT, is the means which we strongly believe that we can overcome the divide especially between urban and rural young people. We already see results following the work which has been done, particularly through our career guidance, by South African Qualifications Authority, SAQA; quite a number of rural people have been reached through ICT.
In the area of research, the South African National Research Network, SANReN, is playing a great role to promote cooperation in terms of research between different institutions. I also want to say to hon members, with the announced Budget, we are open, transparent and committed to cooperating with all South Africans - public and private - in ensuring that we are transparent to the masses; we hide no challenges and difficulties and we commit to ensuring not only access but also quality post school education.
Mr G S RADEBE / E.K.S/ LIM CHECKED / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 346
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING
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Mr G S RADEBE: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon Members of Parliament, distinguished guests and viewers at home, the budget of the Minister spells out clearly that our choices as a nation and all stakeholders must contribute towards its realisation. Achieving that depends on our action.
The further education and training sector is expected to be a significant locus of the delivery of vocational and continuing education and training, with strong links to industries. With this budget debate we hope that the allocation of the R4,9 billion will enable the department to ensure that vocational and continuing education take centre stage, in terms of the skills development.
I think it will be relevant that I quote our hero, the people's person, comrade Chris Hani, in relevancy, not how one person has just misrepresented his articulation. [Laughter.] Comrade Chris Hani said and I quote:
Rich people know that they can pass on money to their children, they can pass on land, they can pass on titles, but there's one great gift that workers can pass on to their children and that is good education.
In his meeting with the principals of the further education and training colleges, the President, comrade Jacob Zuma, pointed to the vital space that this sector must occupy, with regard to developing skills for building a strong manufacturing base and productive economy. The President further pointed to the successful industrial economies such as Germany, which is rooted in the apprenticeship model. I need to mention that Germany values its vocational education system. This is evident in the support that comes from all the institutions of government, industries and other trade unions.
Industries should come on board to partner with colleges in order to develop skills that are really needed in the industries. We fully support the presidential call for the changing of mindsets of our society to enable further education and training, FET, colleges to be the kind of training institutions we wish them to be.
As the ANC, we welcome the contribution of R2,5 billion by the National Skills Fund, NSF, and the Sector Education and Training Authorities, Setas, that will be injected into the refurbishment and construction of the new campuses of the EFT colleges. This will ensure that we go a long way.
Siswati:
Ndvuna lehlon, ngitsandza kusho kutsi lobudlelwane lobentiwa ngemakolishi naletimboni kutawuhamba indlela lendze nangendlela lesifuna kutsi kwenteke ngayo. Kodvwa-ke lesitsandza kukucindzetela kakhulu kutsi sifuna kutsi letimboni tikwati kufaka sandla ngetimoto letinsha, ngobe sitsite nasenta luhlolo lwetfu lena KwaZulu-Natali sakhandza kutsi emakolishi asasebentisa timoto takadzeni. Sikhandze kusasebenta imesedisi yakadzeni-dzeni, ngeminyaka yabo 1980, lengasekasilungeli lesikhatsi sanyalo.
Ngako-ke, loku kusho kutsi lesayensi letfutfukako yalemihla ngeke isakwati kuhambelana nalolwati labalutfola esikolweni. Ngaleto tizatfu, sicela kutsi tonkhe timboni tifake tandla ngetimoto tato, njengetinsimbi tetimoto khona titekwati kusita bafundzi kuze babe nebuchwephesha lobufanelekile bangalesikhatsi.
English:
Hon members, we are happy that government continues to deliver on its strategic objective of ensuring that students who qualify for financial aid in the further education and training colleges are exempted from paying fees.
Siswati:
Sihlalo, sibonga Indvuna ngekutsi bafundzi labali 191 bakwati kutfola imifundzate, loko kubasita kutsi bakwati kwelekeleleka etifundvweni tabo kulamalanga alamhla nje. Loku, Ndvuna, kutakwenta kutsi batfundzi batimisele ngemandla abo onkhe kuze bakwati kuphumelela nasetikolweni baphase. Lemali itabachuba libanga lelidze kakhulu.
English:
Hon members, we are however concerned about the fact that out of the 50 FET colleges in the country, only 20 have full constituted councils. This has an implication for the governance and management of the finances of the colleges. It is very important that we ensure that the financial capacity that is given to the colleges is managed through the appointment of former chartered accountants, who can assist in the FET colleges, and contribute positively to their management and governance. Thank you very much, hon Minister. [Applause.]
We also urge the Minister to speed up the process of developing and implementing the qualifications of the FET lectures, especially because you intend building new FET college campuses across the country. Hon Minister, currently we are battling with the fact that 57% of lectures all over the country are underqualified, especially in KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo. It is important to acknowledge the reopening of the Kwa-Ndebele College where we will ensure that it at least capacitate our lectures to build a very strong educational sector.
It is also important that the DA members listen clearly to you. You said that you are delivering within a short space of time and that these colleges will be opened within the next financial year. We believe that that these contributions made by the Minister will impact positively on the success rate and throughput rate.
The President reiterated that textbooks should be delivered to schools on time to ensure smooth execution of teaching and learning. We call upon all the provincial departments of education to ensure that textbooks for all subjects are delivered on time to further education and training colleges.
Hon Chairperson and members, we conducted an oversight visit to the further education and training colleges in KwaZulu-Natal in January and it was sad to observe that most of the students didn't receive textbooks at that particular time. We also noticed that some of the teaching and learning has continued without textbooks. In some of the areas the textbooks given were not enough.
Minister, we further acknowledged that the postponement of the Adult Education and Training, AET. AGazette was published in February that postpones the implementation of the national norms and standardsfor funding in that centres. We just hope it won't jeopardise the provision of education in that sector.
In conclusion, we are hoping that the 2012-13 funds voted for the Programme 4 will help in solving some of the identified challenges and accelerate the improvements already experienced through the programme.
Minister, our education policy must enable everyone who receive education to develop morally, intellectually and physically and to become a worker with social consciousness and culture. We must not be apologetic about that, Minister. It is our role to emphasize that. The ANC supports the Budget Vote.
Last but not least, people should listen carefully to what is being said because if you want to engage them, they must be able to engage and talk about what has been said here. Knowledge is very important. Some people cannot listen to other people because they don't have knowledge. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES AZM MNGUNI/ Sisw ///tfm////ch Eng(src)
END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 347
"Old Assembly Main",Unrevised Hansard,26 Apr 2012,"Take 347 [Old Assembly Main].doc"
Mr G S RADEBE
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, it is not disputed that our children must be fluent in English as an international language. Last year I agreed with the hon Minister when he expressed his disappointment at the slow progress in the development of African languages as languages of scholarship at the country's universities.
In his speech he made proposals as to how to ensure that indigenous African languages could also become languages of higher education instruction. The Minister and I have had many discussions on language and education. He knows how strongly I feel about these issues and the FF Plus supports him in his statements.
Prof Samassékou of Mali, as the president of the Africa Academy of Languages said, It's unacceptable that Africa is the only continent where children are not educated in their mother tongue. Germans learn in German, Japanese learn in Japanese, but the people of Africa learn in a foreign language.
The question is, can African languages be developed to full and equal university languages? At the beginning of the previous century, Afrikaans was dismissed as a kitchen language which would never develop into a mature academic language. If the will is there any language can be developed to this level, including isiZulu and Sesotho. Hebrew was a dead historical language for 2000 years, but because the will was there, Hebrew was regenerated into a modern language – in which computers are being built – in the 20th century.
Afrikaans, together with Hindi, Malaysian and Hebrew are the only four languages which have developed themselves from kitchen languages into university languages in the 20th century. I believe that if the will is there some of the African languages of South Africa could do the same in the 21st century.
In this regard very good work is at present being done at some South African universities. I think of the good work that someone like Prof Khumalo has done for the development of isiZulu at the University of Zululand. If I'm correct he was the first person who did his PhD in the medium of isiZulu. I'm also aware of the good work that is being done at the North West University where there are already electronic spellcheckers for amongst others, isiZulu, Setswana and isiXhosa.
My question is, what is being done to encourage these universities to continue and to promote other South African languages, other than English? For example, various universities offer classes in more than one language or make use of simultaneous translations.
If the Minister is serious about his dream of developing other South African languages to university level, he and his department will have to institute measures to encourage these universities to continue with this. As far as I'm concerned, the best way would be to adjust the funding framework for universities in order to compensate them additionally for the extra expenses which they incur in promoting multilingualism.
I want to ask the Minister and his department whether they will be prepared to undertake such an investigation into the adjustment of the financing model.
Afrikaans:
Mevrou, ek het aan die begin gesê dat ons kinders tot op universiteitsvlak vlot in Engels moet wees as internasionale taal. Maar dit beteken nie dat daar nie ook ruimte gemaak moet word vir ander tale soos Afrikaans, isiZulu en Sesotho, vir onderrig in hoër onderwysinstellings nie. Hierdie departement moet dit doen. Ons sal hom daarin ondersteun so ver as ... [Onhoorbaar.] [Applous.]
Mr K J DIKOBO
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Take: 347
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr K J DIKOBO: Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, members and guests, in judging the budget presented by the Minister today, Azapo will do so looking at the extent to which it will go in strengthening the sector.
There is a need to strengthen the management of Further Education and Training, FET, colleges. Some have been running with vacant positions in management. There are colleges where you have principals or chief executive officers but no senior management. This is a situation that has to be addressed as a matter of urgency.
Hon Minister, you mention job creation, but vacant positions are the exact opposite of what job creation is. A vacant position means a service is not being rendered, somebody is being denied a job and therefore children are being denied a source of income in the family.
We welcome the agreement with the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, that you have addressed, but good intentions can also be problematic if not properly implemented. The cry that we now hear is that in some colleges, chief financial officers', CFO's, have just rocked up while there was no engagement with principals and councils to talk about what exactly it is that these people are going to do. Are they part of the organogram? Where do they report to? It is something that you need to address.
We have heard of the plan to have enrolment at FET colleges increased to 1 million in 2030. This will require another recapitalisation of FET colleges. The colleges will require new classrooms, workshops, hostels – and I must say decent hostels –
for learners' who stay far away from those colleges.
The FET sector will have to be made more attractive as an alternative, or to use your words Minister, as institutions of choice. The Minister will have to seriously address the perceived lack of parity of esteem between the National Senior Certificate, NSC, and the National Certificate Vocational, NCV. The truth is that there are still real problems in the NCV. How do we explain the fact that a learner who has successfully completed NCV cannot do a trade test because the minimum requirement is N2?
A lot has been said in this House and elsewhere about the need to address problems of teacher supply and demand. Your department has been charged with the responsibility of ensuring that the country has enough teachers. In Limpopo for example, if you advertise for a Maths or Science teacher, chances are that the only applicants that you are going to get are from Zimbabweans. We know their situation and why they are here. What will happen as soon as the political situation in their country stabilizes? Are we preparing ourselves?
Hon Minister, you have been rescued from challenges and problems related to concurrent powers. We expect your department to move with speed in dealing with disparities that were brought about by the lack of implementation of policies ...
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mrs N Ngele): Hon Dikobo, sorry but your time is expired.
Mr K J DIKOBO: Azapo supports Budget Vote 17. [Applause.]
Mr L L BOSMAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Takes: 347 & 348
Mr K J DIKOBO
Mr L L BOSMAN: Madam Chair, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and members. Taking the vision of the government's National Development Plan, NDP, on improving education, training and innovation as a guiding instrument for today's debate, I would like to draw your attention to the following aspects.
The NDP suggests an education system that strives to improve the quality of education for the majority of learners'. By 2030 South Africa will need an education system with the following attributes:
Further and higher education and training that enables people to fulfil their potential, increase the graduation rate to 75%, produce 30 000 artisans per year, increase participation rates to 25% and create an additional one million learning opportunities per year; and
An expanding higher education sector that is able to contribute towards rising incomes, higher productivity and a shift to a more knowledge intensive economy.
Building on what works in international education and also in ongoing policy research in South Africa aimed at helping to improve the national education system, it reveals that improving learner success and throughput in secondary schools is one of South Africa's most challenging priorities.
Most South African learners' successfully complete grade 9 and look to the National Senior Certificate as a form of access to higher education. Unfortunately the reality is quite different. Many learners will repeat the senior grades, while others will drop out between grades 10, 11 and 12.
A recent study found that nearly one million young South Africans, aged 18 to 24, who had at least a grade 10 or equivalent education, did not complete their grade 12 education, were unemployed and not studying. One can assume that they would cope better in vocational educational systems relevant to South Africa's needs.
What then needs to be done to strengthen vocational educational systems in South Africa, where school-leavers are exposed to engineering, technological, electrical, building related, agricultural and other occupations, but need further post school training before they can enter the labour market, especially in the light of South Africa's critical need for technical and artisan skills?
Research indicates that the country should give further attention to and develop a policy framework for making vocationally-orientated education, through specialist focus schools or further education and training institutions, a much more attractive option within a system of diversified education.
Drawing on international best practice, it is possible to identify some of the key factors for successful vocational education:
Successful countries have distinct and connecting aims for general and vocational education. These clarify the different and connecting pathways for learners via these different education programmes;
Successful countries have a high degree of collaboration between government and industry at the planning stages. They also require different but involved government departments to help each other, in both policy development and the design and delivery of educational programmes;
Qualifications awarded through vocational education and other qualifications have a clear exchange rate. These arrangements are normally supported by agreed criteria and well-functioning, effective information systems;
Good vocationally-orientated education curricula have been developed through education and industry partnerships. Effective partnerships combine the general mix of knowledge and skills, drawing on general education as well as vocationally-orientated education;
The international experience is clear – effective vocationally-orientated education relies on high quality educators, which has been mentioned today. The system also ensures that such teachers have adequate knowledge and orientation of the workplace and its demands; and
More successful results follow where there is a range of appropriate measures to help learners and their parents make informed choices about future education options at the end of their period of basic education.
In order to achieve these proposals, the following would also have to be implemented:
In order to achieve these proposals, the following would
also have to be implemented: Funds should be allocated from Setas to support and enhance identified focus schools and training institutions. The rigid boundaries between school-based vocationally-orientated education and national education offered by FET colleges should be more flexible.Partnerships between training institutions and industry should be encouraged. This will allow vocationally-orientated education to be supplemented with practical experience in appropriate companies.
Currently, in South Africa the Seta Co-ordination supports, monitors and reports on the implementation of the National Skills Development strategy at sectoral level and is responsible for an effective skills development system. However, the system is currently dysfunctional and failing the learners. I received numerous complains from service providers and students about problems they encounter in the administration of their respective Setas. To illustrate this frustration I quote from a letter that illustrates the problems:
The electrical construction industry previously fell under the auspices of the Energy Sector Education and Training, ESETA, now called Energy Water Sector Education Training Authority, EWSETA. On 1 April 2011, our industry was moved across to the construction Ceta, which like the EWSETA is under administration and hence little if anything is done by them. One of their duties is to issue trade test certificates to successful candidates.
Since April last year, we had as an accredited trade test centre 49 candidates who successfully passed their industry trade test. Despite all the requirements being provided to the Ceta not a single trade test certificate has been issued by the Ceta. This certificate is required by employers when offering employment and without such candidates loose out. The certificate is also one of the requirements for a candidate to obtain the Installation Electrical Licence, so here too candidates are being hamstrung from qualifying.
A further worrying issue has now arisen. Our accreditation as a training centre by the EWSETA expired on 25 February 2012. Despite all efforts by us to have our training facilities re-accredited by the Ceta, nothing has happened. We are now faced with having to stop trade testing and possibly stop all training. This situation is not unique to ourselves as we are aware of several training facilities which have also ceased training due to their expired accreditation. No positive reaction is coming from the Ceta not even after a visit by the Minister.
In conclusion, the DA is sincerely concerned about what is happening, we cannot continue in this manner. We need an effective skills development system which can produce the required number of trained artisans which our country desperately needs to promote economic growth and employment opportunities that are in dire need. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N GINA / TH & JN / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Takes: 348 & 349
Mr L L BOSMAN
Ms N GINA: Thank you very much, Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members present here, the Director-General of Higher Education and Training, and all the guests, I greet you all. As you all know, education has been set as a societal issue in this country by President J G Zuma. We therefore cannot stop talking about it, particularly access to higher education and training.
Education is very important in enabling every member of the society to realise his or her potential and participate in social and economic life and it thus leads to the reduction of inequality, as it is one of the challenges we face as a country. For us to bridge the skills shortage we need to address the issue of access to education. There are many understated factors that hinder access to education for many learners and students. Factors such as financial exclusions, variations in terms of admission policies, shortages of accommodation in our institutions of higher learning, racism and many other factors, and if these are not addressed we will see them continue to haunt the system.
Our expectation is that the budgeting process that we are involved in should steadily address these factors that hinder access to higher education and training.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyafisa ukudlulisa amazwi enkuthazo nethemba esilidlulisayo kuNgqongqoshe wethu la esithembisa khona futhi eqhubeka nokuzibophezela ngokulwa kanye nokuvula amathuba amaningi okuthi abafundi bethu babe nezindawo abangaya kuzo uma befuna ukuqhubeka nemfundo. Ekuzibophezeleni kwakhe uthe ngonyaka wezi-2014 sizobona ukuvulwa kwezinyuvesi ezimbili kulezi fundazwe esikhuluma ngazo. Lokho sikuthatha ngezandla zombili, siyakwamukela futhi siyathemba ukuthi kuzokwenzeka ukuze abantwana bethu bakwazi ukuqhubeka nemfundo eseqopheleni eliphezulu ngendlela ekhululekile.
English:
When I go to financial exclusions, the government has committed in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework 2009-2014 that financial need must not become a barrier to access post school education. We applaud the sterling work that the National Student Financial Aid, NSFAS, has done since its inception in ensuring that academically deserving students access education and in contributing to the skills development in this country. Some of us seated here are the beneficiaries of this scheme and it does continue to serve the purposes of addressing the issue of the needy that we have in our country.
We are however, saddened by the fact that there are students who continue to face the challenge of financial exclusion. Institutions continue to apply the principle of top slicing when policy allocating NSFAS funds because of the high number of NSFAS applicants. While this principle ensures that every applicant gets funded, the one size fits all approach does not always assist, for an example, students are allocated the same amount despite the programmes they have registered for. This principle does not take into consideration the fact that other students are enrolled in programmes that demand higher tuition fees than others. For an example, the Bachelor of Science will not cost the same amount of money like the Bachelor of Arts, but you find that in the institution the way that these funds are allocated, is just a one size fits all.
We think, Minister, that in one way or the other we are happy to say that we have just announced today that the NSFAS board is now replaced and everybody is there. We think that these are the issues that need to be addressed so that we can make sure that the necessary objectives of the NSFAS are achieved.
We were at the University of Zululand at the beginning of this year when we were in our oversight role in KwaZulu Natal. We were told that the throughput rate of the institution was at 14,78% in 2010, well below the national average and that was an issue of concern. Amongst other things, this poor throughput rate was attributed to the dropout rate amongst many students owing to financial difficulties.
Some institutions forced students who are NSFAS beneficiaries to pay the upfront payment in order to enable the universities to have operational funds whilst they are waiting the transfer of their block and subsidy grants from the department. How on earth can we expect needy students to pay these upfront payments? Those are all the issues that need to be addressed despite all the efforts that the government is putting in place. We really need to go to those institutions of higher learning to make sure that these issues are addressed. More especially because they block or exclude learners or students who are coming from very poor backgrounds and known to be historically disadvantaged.
We cannot shy away from talking about the abuse of the NSFAS finances by the students themselves. As much as we strive forward ensuring that poor students access education and successfully get the necessary financial assistance they need through the system, we also found some practices that are not comforting. The National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, is meant to assist academically deserving students who come from poor backgrounds to access education and further training. We are concerned, however, about the recent developments in terms of what is happening at institutions of higher learning.
From our recent oversight visit to institutions of higher learning, we learnt that students are refunded their NSFAS money at the end of the year. For example, at the Cape Peninsula University of Technology, a student reported to the committee that he was refunded R11 000 and he was excited because he was sorted for the festive season. What did this mean? One will be tempted to assume that students use the money to entertain, including buying everything that can make them happy. Ironically, we found that the same student who has been refunded the R11 000 at the end of 2010 could not afford to register the following year. [Interjections.]
The main question that comes up, Mr Minister is - yes we applaud and say that the NSFAS must continue but, are the NSFAS issues managed well? That is important.
IsiZulu:
Ngalokho ngiphonsela inselelo kuzo zonke izinhlaka ezihola abafundi ezikoleni, nakuzo zonke izinhlaka zomphakathi ekutheni lokhu okuncane uhulumeni akwenzayo masiqokelele ukuthi kufeza izinhloso ezifanele ikakhulukazi ezinhlakeni zabafundi. Ngifisa ukuthi ngiwuvuselele lowo nembeza ukuthi izimali ezikhishwa uhulumeni ukuyosiza umfundi ukuthi enze okungcono ngempilo yakhe, hayi ukuthi athi ngibuyiselwe imali. Nayo imikhakha ayikwazi ukuphindisela imali kubafundi mayelana nezinto ezinjalo.
English:
So, that is the planning that we need to see happening in our institutions so that we can see our education being taken forward in future…
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon member over there to finish off where the IFP member could not finish his speech? [Laughter.]
Ms N GINA: Chairperson, one other concern that we have as a committee is that of the institutions of higher learning that offer qualifications that are accredited by Council of Higher Education but not by the professional bodies. Over and above the accreditation by the Council of Higher Education, other programmes are to be accredited by professional bodies like health and medical programmes, built environment and engineering programmes to mention the few. This is done to ensure that institutions put in place the appropriate resources that will ensure that provision of teaching and learning meet the required standards and levels of quality.
To single out one professional body such as South African Institute of Chartered Accountant, SAICA, it is the body that assures quality of academic programmes leading to qualification as Chartered Accountant. It is important to note that not all institutions that offer Bachelor of Accounting related qualifications are accredited by this body. Students who go through these unaccredited programmes, are disadvantaged upon their completion because for them to enrol in training accountant programmes they must first register for the two year SAICA accreditation bridging course while their counterparts who passed the same qualification but accredited, will be accepted into Chartered Accountant programmes. Hon Minister, this must be looked into.
In conclusion, the challenges outlined above put spotlight in 2012 Budget Vote. We note that this budget set a good pace towards addressing these challenges with earmarked Medium Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, allocation further accelerating the pace to address them.
The gains that the department has made in the past three years give us hope that, as the ANC, we are on the right path of rooting out all the forms of exclusions in the higher education sector.
The Minister has articulated to the vision and the pronouncement which are matters that will totally reshape the landscape of higher education. Issues like the use of African languages in the medium to long term languages of science should be fast tracked. Minister, there is a need to really assist those institutions that are ready to implement this in order for them to serve as models for other institutions to do so; the effort to grow the higher education system so that we can increase enrolment by 2030, we are looking forward to that; and the continued allocation to address the student accommodation challenges is a sign of good progress.
Therefore, as the ANC, we are saying that the 2012 Budget Vote sets a higher pace to progress in addressing the challenges. We really support it and we are very glad that even the progressive opposition parties, which have vision of seeing this country going forward, do support such a Budget Vote with the additions, the comments and the contributions that they have made to make sure that an African child does benefit from the system. We do serve an African child except those opposition parties which I think they forgot to support or they do not understand what is happening.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING (Dr B E Nzimande) JN (Zulu) & KC ///tfm/// END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
EPC – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Tuesday, 24 April 2012 Takes: 349 & 350
Ms N GINA
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING (Dr B E Nzimande): Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank all the members who have participated in this Budget Vote debate today, the members of the portfolio committee, in particular, members of the ANC study group for all the support that they have given us and all the parties which have supported this Budget Vote.
IsiZulu:
Siyabonga kakhulu kulabo abasisekele, angingakezi kulabo abangakayisekeli. [Uhleko.]
English:
I also think that we must express our appreciation for what appears today to be a very constructive engagement from the DA and it looks like the Lindiwe Mazibuko regime change has done something different. [Applause.]
I would like to ask you to submit your comments during Green Paper process on many issues that you have raised. I would like to assure hon Bosman that the matter of the electrical associationthat you raised, has been dealt with. It is not in anybody's interest to have the differences around the issue of the production of artisans since that is a priority, and also to say to hon member Lotrietthat we agree with you that access without success is a problem.
That is why in this budget we have allocated different amounts of money to actually improve amongst other things, throughput rate and also agreeing with hon Gina that we do need to mobilise all our forces for educational transformation and it is very important that students should not just see these bursaries as gifts from government but they themselves need to work hard.
Hon Malale, really, thank you very much. We have taken into account most of the very important things you have said. Maybe this issue of salary disparities may require a dedicated investigation from the department in terms of universities. The gap between lecturers and executive at universities is indeed unacceptable. It is something that, I am sure the Director General is listening; I think we need to have a proper investigation. We have raised this matter with the chairpersons of councils, to say let them grapple with it but they have not moved as fast as we have anticipated.
We have promised dedicated colleges of education that we will definitely do it. What we have said today about the three, we are going to do it as well as this matter, and we have asked the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, to investigate how we can respond to those who do not qualify for NSFAS even though they are poor. NSFAS is effectively working on the matter.
But, I must also warn, in particular, the DA that at the same time in our interventions in universities, we must not be seen to be pushing for autonomy when things are good, and blame government when things are bad. That is why our approach to higher education institutions is that autonomy must always be balanced with public accountability because those are public institutions.
Hon Bhanga, I am worried because it looks like what happened to you today is that you had already prepared a speech and I covered all things you were raising, but unfortunately could not change the speech that you had already written. [Laughter.] This is a sign that Cope is not street wise.[Laughter.] I also wish that you could also direct the energy that you showed today to insight Cope so that it can hold its congress. [Applause.] Otherwise we are not sure who mandated you. Since Cope was established, it has never had a policy discussion because it has not had a congress. I am sorry about that, and also...[Interjection.]
Mr B M BHANGA: On a point of order, Chair, is it correct for a communist to address another party like that? [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: That is not a point of order, Minister continue.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: I would also like to say to the hon Mpontshane that we appreciate that he supports this. However, with regard to the issue of an ideological third force, why don't we ask for a debate in Parliament on this question, and not use this Budget Vote because I would really like to debate what I mean by elements that are positioning themselves like an ideological third force. Let us not use this.
We have also heard what Professor Mayatula said. We agree with him in terms of the right to protest and demonstrate, but we do not agree with the destruction of property. In fact, in our own language, to destroy property is counterrevolutionary because it means we have got to take money that could be used for something else to repair something that we have actually already built. That is why we want to say transformation of education must be accompanied by ongoing mass mobilisation and political education of South Africans, and not just be seen as manna of some sort from government. [Applause.]
Hon Radebe, we agree with. Part of the R2,5 billion from the National Skills Fund and the Sector Education and Training Authorities will also be for modern machinery and equipment. If the skills afford, we agreed that employers should expose college lecturers to modern technology so that what they teach is relevant, and they, therefore, produce students who are employable or at least able to start their own initiatives.
Regarding councils of colleges, we also agree. We are targeting that by the end of September we have fully functional re-elected councils of Further Education and Training, FET, colleges. Therefore, call upon all the hon members to give us names of good people that they know who are passionate about education and colleges. We will consider them even if they actually come from the DA, and maybe Cope. [Laughter.]
My hon colleague, Deputy Minister, we agree with you on the issue of language. You know my view. The two of us have debated many times before outside of the House that the attitude you articulated today towards African languages and Afrikaans is a correct one. My concern is that those who defend Afrikaans tend to want to defend Afrikaans in isolation from the underdeveloped African languages. If you do that, you drive yourself into the ladder and then no one will listen. We do want to learn, as a matter of fact, how Afrikaans achieved what it has achieved. That is why in the African languages panel we have a professor from Stellenbosch who is actually sharing with us how Afrikaans was developed. That is something that we really appreciate and we can be able to take forward.
Hon Gina, we agree with. That is why we have asked the administrators at these universities to also focus on turning around the academic programme, not just management and finance, if we are to actually deal with this.
In conclusion, hon Dikobo from Azapo, the issue of chief financial officers, CFOs, is very clear at the FET colleges. The structure of the FET colleges is that one of the deputy principals is responsible for finance, which is a CFO position. When chartered accountants come in no one can say that it is not clear what is going to happen.
Isizulu:
Ngale kwalokho ngiyabonga kakhulu kinina malunga ahloniphekile ngokuthi niseseke. Labo abangasesekanga angisazi ukuthi ngingathini kubona; yizingxaki zabo lezo, abaziphuzele lobo tshwala abazigayele bona. Siyabonga. [Uhleko.] [Ihlombe.]
JN (Zulu)/KC / Mpho / UNH (Checked Eng)
The Council adjourned at 16:09.
END OF TAKE
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