Hansard: Questions for oral reply: Deputy President ; Cluster 1: Peace and Security
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 28 Feb 2012
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 94
TUESDAY, 29 FEBRUARY 2012
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 15.01.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
QUESTIONS - THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 94
START OF DAY
Question 1:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon members, one of the areas in which we have not made much progress as a country, has been in the integration and co-ordination of infrastructure projects. While good progress has been made in improving the management of infrastructure development at national and provincial levels, much remains to be done in this regard.
While we have examples of world class infrastructure being delivered on time – such as with the 2010 Fifa World Cup – there have been many other smaller and less complex projects that have suffered long delays. These delays are often not caused by individual departments, but are usually a result of the complexities of co-ordination and compliance with relevant regulations.
To address these legal and regulatory hurdles and other important infrastructure issues, the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission, PICC, was established in September 2011. It is headed by the President, and brings key Ministers, premiers and mayors into a forum that focuses on infrastructure co-ordination, makes infrastructure decisions and scrutinises delivery progress.
Thus far, the work of the PICC has concentrated on plans for future projects and infrastructure initiatives from a large number of authorities such as state-owned enterprises, and national, provincial and local government departments. These have been clustered, sequenced and prioritised into strategic integrated projects that, together, unlock the economic development of South Africa and maximise the returns on our infrastructure investment. A number of these were announced by the President in the state of the nation address earlier this month.
The three spheres of government and public entities have different and, in many cases, independent responsibilities on infrastructure as well as different funding sources, ranging from government grants and allocations to user revenues, borrowings and private partnerships. Public sector infrastructure projects vary in size and duration and there are thousands of active projects at any given point in time, with older ones being completed and new ones starting all the time.
Each entity, municipality and provincial or national department entering into infrastructure contracts, have their own systems to manage projects and there is no common or central information system or database that regularly and comprehensively captures the changing status and progress of each of the infrastructure projects across the country. The idea of such a central system has been mooted, and Cabinet took a decision to institute a comprehensive project register which will collect and update project information on a quarterly basis.
This new tool that is being developed will be able to tell us the status of each infrastructure project under construction. It is envisaged that this information will be available to Parliament and the public.
In the Budget Speech the Minister of Finance also announced steps in this regard, in particular, that special attention will be given to the procurement processes for infrastructure, technical assistance through the Infrastructure Delivery Improvement Programme, adherence to the Construction Industry Development Board standards on infrastructure delivery management, and the establishment of a municipal infrastructure agency.
Beyond the Construction Industry Development Board's project register and National Treasury's infrastructure expenditure monitoring, which will scrutinise projects, special focus will be placed on the progress of the strategic integrated projects by the PICC.
I thank you for your attention. [Applause.]
Ms W NGWENYA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 94
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
IsiZulu:
Nk W NGWENYA: Sekela likaMongameli esikhungweni soKuhlonyuleliswa Kwezimilo iTshwelepelo eKimberly, kwakuhlelelwe ukusetshenziswa izimali eyizigidi ezingamakhulu amabili zamarandi okwathi uma siqedwa leyo mali yase inyuke yayo fika emalini engaphezulu kwezigidi ezingamakhulu ayisishiyagalombili. Into efanayo yenzeka nasesikhungweni soKuhlonyuleliswa Kwezimilo i-South Interior Recreational Equine Centre, Sirec. Umbuzo wami Sekela likaMongameli uthi: Wenzani uhulumeni ukuqinisekisa ukuthi ukwenyuka okungaka kwemali okusuke kuhleliwe kuyavinjelwa noma okungenani kuyancishiswa? Ngiyabonga.
English:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, I would like to thank hon Ngwenya for the question.
The specific examples that you allude to, hon Ngwenya, of correctional centres which experienced the escalation of costs, are the precise reason the PICC has a plan to ensure that each of these projects is monitored from the onset to ensure that, if there is a deviation from the going prices, that should be picked up early enough and corrective measures taken to ensure that we do not end up with escalating costs on any project. So, this initiative is informed precisely by this experience, that projects that had originally been costed much lower, end up with higher costs, as it were. So, in the PICC, there is a good plan to ensure that all the megaprojects are monitored from the outset. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, please reduce the noise levels in the House so that we can hear the Deputy President.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 94
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, we have heard the Deputy President explain to us that there will be this infrastructure co-ordinating committee. It is a positive step forward, but we have to accept on two levels that there may still be some serious problems in terms of actually getting the projects off the ground.
The first matter concerns practicality. If we look at the expenditure that was highlighted by the Auditor-General in key departments that are also going to fulfil very important roles within this infrastructure roll-out, then we see that there was underexpenditure and a clear lack of capacity.
To mention just one of the departments: Yesterday a presentation was made and Minister Sbu Ndebele acknowledged that government had to learn very harsh lessons from the Gauteng freeway toll project. How do you foresee that we will avert similar issues in future?
The practical roll-out ... And are we not creating too many additional co-ordination committees? To mention one, the monitoring task team on the turnaround of the SABC has been operational for 20 months, but we have not really seen significant progress on government guarantees. Are we not going to run into problems again with financial accounting through these projects? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, I would like to thank hon Kilian for the question.
The approach here is really informed by the understanding that this co-ordinating commission will draw on the most experienced talents that presently fall under institutions such as the Development Bank of South Africa, DBSA, as well as the various departments. It will pull together the best team – the A team, if you like, including persons from the private sector – in the implementation to ensure that we get value for money in the roll out of this very important infrastructure.
You see, I would have had some reservations if all we were doing was announcing these infrastructure projects and leaving them to the departments to implement. Basically, the President has made it clear that we have to have this co-ordinating commission which also brings in people from Treasury who will pay particular attention to where the money goes and whether we are getting value for money. Thank you.
Mr L W GREYLING
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 94
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, the infrastructure project whose delay has, by far, the biggest ramifications for our country, is that of the Medupi power station. Now, this delay is caused primarily by Hitachi Power Africa not being able to fulfil its obligations to supply boilers in the specified time period. This will now delay the commissioning of this power station by over a year. This is the same company in which the ANC's funding arm, Chancellor House, has a 25% stake. So, essentially, this massive conflict of interest is now threatening our energy security, with dire consequences for our economy.
Can the Deputy President give this House the assurance that Chancellor House will not have any shares in any company that is given tenders on the proposed nuclear build programme, or for that matter, on any of the infrastructure build projects? Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Greyling, this is the third time I hear you make this point in this august House, and I think you deserve a straight answer.
Chancellor House is a company. It engages in economic activity in and outside of South Africa. Ideally, it should not do business with government at all. [Applause.]
In the case of the example you have cited, Chancellor House invested its money in Hitachi Africa without knowing that Hitachi Africa is Hitachi Africa. [Interjections.] [Applause.] They did not put their money in Hitachi Africa to produce boilers for Eskom. Hitachi Africa got the contract later ...
[Interjection.]
Yes.
The SPEAKER: Order! Order!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Those are the facts, yes. So I'm saying that, ideally, they should never ever do business with government. The market is large enough to have lots of goodwill. They can do business anywhere and everywhere in the private sector. But, as an investor, you know, you put your money in a bank and they put your money in a unit trust and that unit trust puts money in a company. You have no control over that. [Interjections.]
So, what I am saying is that, where there is clear evidence of manipulation, we would be the first ones to say, "let us deal with this here". We will be the first ones to say so, that here there is a clear case and evidence of manipulation of processes. So, that should not happen. We say Chancellor House should not do so. It should not do business in a way which gives it an advantage because it is an investment wing of the ANC. That should not happen. That is our position. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 94
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr N SINGH: Speaker, I welcome the Deputy President's honest admission. I don't know whether it is about Hitachi, but the honest admission that there is a lack of co-ordination of infrastructure development. I think the co-ordinating commission has come sooner rather than later and they say better late than never.
However, Mr Deputy President, we would like the assurance in this House that, as they did in the 2010 World Cup – and they built infrastructure almost within six months, massive infrastructure –serious attention is going to be paid to infrastructure like schools and hospitals. In the Eastern Cape, there are still mud schools.
An HON MEMBER: Many!
Mr N SINGH: Yes, many, many mud schools. We have been told by the Department of Basic Education that these would be completed by the end of March, but there is no way in hell – if I may use that word, Mr Speaker – that it is going to be completed by the end of March.
What is wrong with this department? The only partners that they get to construct schools are the DBSA and Itala. They are many other service providers with whom they can engage. In KwaZulu-Natal there was a Divine Life Society and a KwaZulu-Natal Schools Project Trust that built schools and classrooms at one fifth the price the department built them. I think this commission should give urgent attention to this prioritised need. [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, indeed, I want to assure this House that the Strategic Infrastructure Projects, Sips, will bring together the projects which would ordinarily fall under Basic Education. For instance, the replacement of mud schools in any area will now be taken over by the PICC as part of the strategic infrastructure projects. The idea is to build them and hand them over to the relevant authority at local level as well as to the departments for maintenance, but the actual delivery would be part of the PICC programme.
QUESTION 2 – THE DEPUTY PRESIENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 95
QUESTION 1 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 2:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker and hon members, Cabinet will consider amendments to the Labour Relations Act in the next few months and I am not in a position to speculate on what Cabinet may decide on the matter.
It is, however, pertinent to point out the following – that the Labour Relations Act provides a legal framework for promoting and facilitating collective bargaining at the workplace and at sectoral level. Negotiations are by nature flexible and often result in both parties making compromises from their original positions.
The policies of the current government are to promote job creation and to protect vulnerable workers. The current legislation is flexible enough to allow for competition in the labour market. As the hon member will be aware, the Minister of Higher Education and Training recently published a Green Paper on Postschool Further Education and Training. The conclusion of the Green Paper process will undoubtedly have major implications for our labour market, as it will accelerate all efforts to build a capable labour force.
With regard to economic growth, our approach is that indeed the private sector plays a major role, but there is also a role for government, which is mainly to create an enabling environment for growth. However, and perhaps more importantly, we should not lose sight of the fact that economic growth must go hand in hand with job creation and generate the necessary revenue that enables government to pursue progressive developmental policies.
The massive infrastructure investment that was announced by the President during the state of the nation address and further elaborated on by the Minister of Finance during the Budget Speech is one of the initiatives that will contribute to the creation of an environment that enables growth.
In addition to infrastructure investment, we are implementing measures to diversify exports, to reduce the cost of doing business in South Africa, to reduce constraints to growth in various sectors, as well as to promote more efficient production systems and entrepreneurship and innovation. We also undertake, on a continuous basis, regulatory reform to improve competitiveness.
While it is true that the number of unemployed people rose by 107 000 last year, the Quarterly Labour Force Survey released earlier this month informs us that 365 000 people were able to get new jobs. Our main focus is to ensure that economic growth accelerates and that we create more jobs, mainly in the private sector. We were able to reduce the number of people unemployed in the years before the recession began, and we aim to return to that level of performance and even exceed it in the years to come. In the meantime, we are also providing short-term employment and various forms of social support for those not able to find jobs.
In this regard, the Interministerial Committee on Antipoverty and Job Creation has identified six programmes for intensification. These are the Expanded Public Works Programme, the Community Works Programme, the development of small enterprises and co-operatives, the Jobs Fund, vocational training, and the War on Poverty Campaign. Our approach, as ably articulated in the New Growth Path, is that while investments in various initiatives take root, the economy and South Africans need a stronger short-term employment boost.
The advantage with the Community Works Programme is that it has proven its ability to expand rapidly and flexibly while the strengthening of community structures provides a platform for other programmes. The interministerial committee is taking special interest in the work of supporting small enterprises and the development of co-operatives, given the immediate livelihood and job-creation potential of these activities. Finally, the Expanded Public Works Program is being strengthened, and funding has been allocated for new projects. I thank you for your attention. [Applause.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 95
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the Deputy President for his response. Understandably, there is a great deal of concern in the public, particularly given the job loss figures that you cited, and I am happy that the government acknowledges the 107 000 jobs that were lost in the last year. There is a great deal of concern about the amendments to the Labour Relations Act and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, which is set to be coming down the tracks into the legislature this year.
The major concern is around the issue of clamping down on short-term and temporary contracts, because we know that this will significantly restrict the ability of the economy to absorb first-time workers, young workers, unskilled workers, and, in particular, workers who don't have previous work experience. It is a well-known fact, Mr Speaker, that you cannot get a job without experience, and you cannot get experience without a job. Will the Deputy President confirm whether or not these provisions are contained in the draft amendments to this legislation and, if so, how does he plan within these envisioned constraints to deliver on his mandate as the head of the Short-term Job Creation Commission? Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Mazibuko. Recently at Nedlac, an accord was signed by all sectors – that is organised labour, organised employers, the community chamber, as well as government – and part of that agreement provides for recognition of temporary workers as apprentices. In other words, the employers approached government and complained that they could not contribute to the training of new entrants into the labour market because, in the past, the requirement was that once you employ someone on a temporary basis, within three months that person should be taken on board as a full-time employee and not as an apprentice. So, this matter was referred to Nedlac. It was debated, discussed and an accord was signed, so there is an agreement which now allows for young people to gain experience, requisite experience, by being taken on board.
It is a signed accord; it is binding. The Minister for Economic Development, Minister Patel, was the main driver of that, because in our focus to try and create jobs, it is important for us to address all the bottlenecks. Anything that would impede the entry of young people into the labour market should be addressed. Therefore, the amendments cannot be carried through if the practical effect of those amendments to the Labour Relations Act, as well as Basic Conditions of Employment Act, thwarts this effort of ensuring that young people can be absorbed and so gain the requisite experience in the work milieu. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 95
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr D A KGANARE: Mr Speaker and hon Deputy President, during the 2011 state of the nation address, the President put the issue of the youth wage subsidy on the agenda and, within an hour after that, Cosatu started throwing their toys out of the cot. The President then backtracked so fast that, during the 2012 state of the nation address, his silence on this issue was deafening.
Recently, Mr Mantashe decided to kick Mr Vavi in the teeth on the same issue. So, the question is, is the Deputy President prepared to support Minister Gordhan, who is perceived to be the person spearheading the issue of the youth wage subsidy, particularly because it seems as if Mr Mantashe has decided to harness Mr Vavi?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Kganare, as far as I know, this matter is a work in progress; it is on the agenda of Nedlac. It is being debated there. We work on the basis of consensus, and, once consensus is reached at Nedlac, then it would be implemented forthwith without any delays, but the matter is work in progress. It is being debated in Nedlac. Thank you.
Mr S C MOTAU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 95
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr S C MOTAU: Mr Speaker and Mr Deputy President, I am glad you referred, this afternoon, to the efforts regarding job creation and economic growth in the country. Your reference to the Expanded Public Works Programme and your reference to the Community Works Programme, all of these things are welcome. All of us in this House, I believe, would like to see these jobs being created.
However, there is something that is very worrisome, and I believe, Mr Deputy President, you have a responsibility today to assure this House of this issue that I am raising now. There is a trend in the townships that people get employed only if they are card-carrying members of the ANC. [Interjections.] I would like to know whether this is ANC policy, because I don't believe it is. However, the community and the country need to be reassured that as we grow this economy, as we create those jobs that we all want to create, that all the people of this country will have an equal opportunity to be employed in those jobs. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Motau, I can indeed assure this House that there is no such policy in the ANC whatsoever and that where such examples manifest themselves, please do approach us. We will be able to address that problem and to attend to it forthwith. It doesn't have to be through formal channels. You don't have to make an appointment or go through the hotline. Come straight to us, and we will be able to attend to it. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 95
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr S N SWART: Speaker, thank you, hon Deputy President. Deputy President, you did respond to a certain degree on the youth wage subsidy scheme where you indicated that it is, at present, before Nedlac. However, this is a hugely important initiative to create jobs, with National Treasury indicating that 178 000 news jobs can be created through this scheme at a cost of R28 000 per job over a period of three years. Now, the concern is that it has already taken almost a year since this initiative was announced. Given that the Minister of Finance has indicated that reservations expressed by the labour constituency can be addressed in the design and implementation of this incentive and that he would like to see greater urgency in resolving this matter, can government in any way expedite this matter, given that one has to achieve consensus but that there seems to be a block in finalising the Nedlac process? Thank you, Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Swart, yes, as government, we would like this matter to be resolved sooner than yesterday but, of course, it is the nature of democracy. To persuade other slowcoaches takes a bit of time, but we are convinced that this would benefit the country and the economy if it were to be resolved, as I said, sooner than yesterday. Thank you.
QUESTION 3 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 96
QUESTION 2 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 3:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, hon Ngonyama, the current tender system applied by government is in line with the prescripts of section 217 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa of 1996, which provides that contracting for goods or services must be done in accordance with a system that is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive and cost-effective.
The acquisition of goods and services is encompassed in the supply chain management processes which form an integral part of government's financial management system. This approach gives effect to the letter and spirit of both the Public Finance Management Act and the Municipal Finance Management Act, objectives of which are to secure sound financial management and combat fraud and corruption.
The Minister of Finance, during the Budget Speech, announced the following initiatives that will be implemented by National Treasury to improve the procurement capability within government: one, eliminating fragmentation in the system and strengthening the national procurement structure and processes; two, appointing a chief procurement officer who will have overall responsibility for monitoring procurement across government; three, reviewing the competencies and capabilities required to perform the procurement function, as well as strict vetting of all supply chain officials; five, developing a national price reference system to detect deviations from acceptable prices; six, strengthening the tax clearance system to ensure that those who have defrauded the state cannot do business with the state; seven, undertaking a joint review, with the Minister of Public Works, of the validity and cost‑effectiveness of all government property leases; and, lastly, improving the ability of departments to set the specifications for tenders. The Minister of Finance will provide details regarding the implementation of these measures. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L S NGONYAMA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 96
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, thank you very much for your comprehensive response. Of major concern to us is the appointment of the said chief procurement officer. With the experience of political appointees as the background of various appointments within the government, are we going to see another political appointee in this position? That's the first question, hon Deputy President.
The second question is based on what Prof Lumumba, who is known as Kenya's corruption guru, said in the Business Day today. Prof Lumumba says that South Africa has, actually, declined from position 54 to position 64 out of 183 countries in the world with regard to corruption. He goes on to say that we have to look at a multidisciplinary approach in dealing with this issue. He espouses strategies around targeted political commitment, as well as economic, legal, administrative, and moral aspects that have to be introduced by governments to deal with the issue of corruption. Hon Deputy President, are we, as a country, on course with regard to, especially, political commitment by government in dealing with corruption? Are we on course with regard to matters of moral and economic aspects?
The SPEAKER: Xhamel' omhle, [Handsome Xhamela] your time has expired.
IsiXhosa:
Mnu L S NGONYAMA: Ndiyabulela, Xhamela. [Thank you, Xhamela.]
English:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon Ngonyama. Well, indeed, I would say that, as government, we are on course, given the number of instruments that have been enacted in legislation to fight against crime and corruption. The points that I have enumerated point at an endeavour to strengthen the efficacy of our systems to ensure that no room is left for corrupt activities.
But, of course, all of that is meaningless if it doesn't happen in practice. It has to be seen happening. And, as government, we are committed to do that.
With regard to your point about political appointees, I really don't know what that means because, in many instances, there are processes of selection, interviews, and so on. However, at the end, it is the political authority that then assents to the recommendations of structures that would have performed the preliminary work of interviewing candidates, and so on. I think the process would be the same in this case. In this country we have appointed heads of Chapter 9 institutions, among others, and they function very well independently.
Unless you argue that political appointments are tantamount to lack of experience or skill, and so on. That's a horse of a different colour altogether. But, I think in the normal course of doing appointments, yes, indeed, the political authority has to sign off on such appointments. However, there are processes that produce the shortlist or something like that. [Applause.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 96
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
IsiXhosa:
Mnu B H HOLOMISA: Somlomo, Sekela Mongameli, ndiphakamela nje ukucebisa kule nto yeziniki-maxabiso. Into ebuhlungu ngayo le nto yeziniki-maxabiso kukuba kwayekwa inkqubo apho urhulumente wayeqesha abantu abasokolayo, umzekelo, xa kusenziwa iindlela.
Ziyenziwa ke ezi ndlela kuqeshwe abo bantu bangama-20 okanye bali-15. Emva koko uyaphela umsebenzi, baphelelwe yimali abo bantu, kodwa ukunakekelwa nokulondolozwa kwaloo ndlela kuyakulinda kude kube lolunye uHlahlo-lwabiwo-mali kunyaka olandelayo. Ukuncedisa aba bantu basokolayo emakhaya, ingaba ayinakuba bubulumko na into yokuba kubuyelwe kulaa nkqubo yamandulo apho iSebe lezeMisebenzi yoLuntu lalinezixhobo zokusebenza zalo, kwiingingqi ngeengigqi kukho aba bantu kwakusithiwa ngoonontente, njalo njalo, khon' ukuze abantu bafumane umsebenzi.
Mandulo, ngethuba ubungunobhala jikelele wombutho wabasebenzi i‑NUM, xa amadoda edendiwe phaya emigodini, besiwaxelela phaya emakhaya ukuba aza kuba iinkomo ngoko ke mawaye kuphangela kwiSebe lezeMisebenzi yoLuntu. Mhlawumbi ngelo xesha umntu uneminyaka engama-40 kodwa ebephangela enaloo minyaka ingama-40 ubudala ade abe kubudala beminyaka engama-65, eqinisekile ukuba inyanga nenyanga uza kufumana imali. Kuloo mali babesondla bekwafundisa abantwana babo.
Ingaba akuqondi na ukuba le nto ibandakanya iziniki-maxabiso, njengokuba uyibona ukuba inokubola okuninzi, iphinda isibethe ngokuphindwe kabini nakweli cala labantu kuba bathi sabayekisa into ebabephila ngayo. Abantu bayakhalaza ngokuthi kunikwa mntu uthile iziniki-maxabiso aze loo mntu aqeshe inkosikazi yakhe nabantwana bakhe bodwa bona behleli emakhaya. Awuboni kanjalo, Mhlekazi? [Kwahlekwa.]
Usekela Mongameli weRiphabliki: Enkosi, mkhuluwa wam, ndivumelana nawe ukuba, enyanisweni, iSebe lezeMisebenzi yoLuntu kunyanzelekile ukuba libuyele kulaa ndlela indala yokuba libenabo abantu ekuthiwa ngabasebenzi jikelele bokwenza imisebenzi eyahlukeneyo. Umsebenzi jikelele wenza yonke imisebenzi. Umzekelo, xa kophuke ifestile esikolweni ize ixelwe ngentsimbi yethoba, ngentsimbi yeshumi umsebenzi jikelele woba sele ephaya efakela ifestile entsha. Ndicinga ukuba, ukuba singasebenza ngolo hlobo, kungabakho imisebenzi ezilalini kwaye nonakekelo nolondolozo lwezakhiwo nezinye iziseko zophuhliso lungenzeka ngexesha.
Inkqubo enjalo ingasisebenzela nangokubhekisele kubantu abafana nabasebenzi bezamanzi nogutyulo. Umzekelo, ukho endimaziyo obebaluleke kakhulu phaya eBhayi ekuthiwa nguGalelekile Vito. Xa kukho umbhombho ovingcekileyo utaka ngoko nangoko aye kuwulungisa. Ndivumelana nawe, mkhuluwa wam. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 96
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
English:
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, in 2010, the DA submitted a private member's Bill in this Parliament to regulate the business interests of state employees, public representatives and other government office bearers in order to prevent them from doing business with the state. This proposal was scuppered because we were told by the government that similar legislation was coming down the pipeline and that we were pre-empting that legislation. But, to date, no such legislation has been tabled by this government.
Given the levels of corruption and nepotism that plague the tender process in government's spheres throughout the country, what I want to ask the Deputy President is: Will his Cabinet approve a Bill to regulate the business interests of state employees, like the one which the DA-run government of the Western Cape has passed? [Interjections.] If so, when will this Bill be introduced in this Parliament? If not, does this mean that the Cabinet endorses the existence of business relationships between state employees and the government for which they work? [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon Mazibuko, I'm not sure at what stage the process of a similar Bill that would regulate the business interests of state employees is. But, in principle, I think we are agreed that government employees, public office bearers, and so on, should not do business in a conflicting manner. So, if there is need for a Bill, I will go back to my colleagues in Cabinet and enquire as to at what stage such a Bill is and what are we doing about that specific matter.
Indeed, we can't afford to be forever dealing with manifestations and problems emanating from conflict of interest. As much as possible, we should also - in the same way that we prevent new HIV infections - prevent the temptation to stick our fingers in the till. Therefore, in principle, I undertake to go back to my colleagues to enquire as to at what stage that process is so that we can activate it. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr T A MUFAMADI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 96
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr T A MUFAMADI: Hon Speaker, let me first and foremost thank the Deputy President for the detailed and comprehensive response. The Deputy President's response clearly illustrates that procurement of goods and services by the state is far more than just tendering. It is a tool designed to achieve developmental objectives for the delivery of basic services at local level. It is a tool to reduce poverty and inequalities in the society and promote social cohesion. It is also a tool to promote social activities and localisation of industries to promote manufacturing at local level.
As the ANC, we further appreciate the measures already taken by government, particularly at local level where the prevention of the conference of political office and the bidding process has already taken place in order to avoid conflict in terms of tender awarding. We also welcome and support the speedy implementation of the measures announced in the Budget Speech, particularly the appointment of a chief procurement officer and the establishment of a national pricing reference system. We really feel that it is important to speedily put measures in place to achieve these objectives. Thank you.
QUESTION 4 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 97
QUESTION 3 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 4:
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, all three arms of the state – the executive, Parliament and the judiciary – derive their authority and function from the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. The preamble categorically states that our Constitution, which is the supreme law of the Republic, is meant to, and I quote:
Heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights.
Lay the foundation for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people. Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person. Build a united and democratic South Africa, able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations.
In its founding provisions, the Constitution further states that, and I quote:
The Republic of South Africa is one sovereign, democratic state founded on the following values: Firstly, human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms; secondly, nonracialism and nonsexism; thirdly, supremacy of the Constitution and the rule of law; and lastly, universal adult suffrage.
It is quite clear from this that the transformation of the South African society is not only a political ideal that is pursued by individuals and organisations but is a constitutional injunction for each and every one of us inside and outside of this august House. This is in fact what the liberation struggle was all about, and transformation remains our guiding principle in our quest to build a united and prosperous society.
Failure by any of the three arms of the state to pursue the noble goal of transforming our society into a united, democratic, nonracial, nonsexist, equal and just society would simply be against the letter and spirit of our Constitution.
The bottom line is this: It is the shared responsibility of all three arms of the state to work tirelessly for the advancement of the political, social and economic rights of all our people, as enshrined in our Constitution.
These include, but are not limited to: the right to equality; the right to human dignity; the right to freedom of association; the right to vote and be voted for; the right to freedom of movement; the right to fair labour practices; the right to live in an environment that is not harmful to one's health and wellbeing; the right to property and land; the right to adequate housing; the right to healthcare services, food, water and social security; the right to basic and further education; and the right to use a language and participate in a cultural life of one's choice.
Section 27(2) of the Constitution states, and I quote:
The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of each of these rights.
It is in the realisation of these rights that true transformation will be achieved in our country. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L N DIALE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 97
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L N DIALE: Speaker, I thank the hon Deputy President for his reply. Would the Deputy President agree that the majority party, the African National Congress, has been at the forefront in guiding the nation to deal with the key challenges that face us as a new democracy - a democracy that needs to transform these arms of the state to accord the vision of an united democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and just society? Would he agree that it is leadership of the ANC that has ensured the separation of powers – a functioning executive and vibrant legislative arm, together with independence of judiciary and rule of law as the foundational values that underpin the democratic society? Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, yes, I do agree with hon Diale that the African National Congress has been playing a central role in upholding the Constitution of the Republic as well as adhering to the separation and in respecting the separation of powers and the rule of law. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 97
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Following on your reply, Deputy President, I want to thank you for quoting the Constitution extensively in your reply. There are talks currently in the governing party, particularly around the issue of the Constitution. Some of those talks are about how bad and bias the Constitution is.
Is it you considered view that the Constitution as it stands outlines assigned powers and responsibilities to various executives? Is it your considered view that today, as you speak here, the Constitution, as adopted in 1996, is still correct and is a Constitution that can guide our democracy forward, rather than these talks about amending the Constitution and changing the powers of the judiciary? In fact, if you have a different view, what are these judgements and why do you think the Constitution, in terms of the other executive power, which is the judiciary, is not giving the right ruling?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, may I ask for your indulgence to allow the hon member to repeat the question because I did not get the essence of the question?
The SPEAKER: I am afraid I will not allow the member to repeat the question. We have a very tight timeframe. Maybe you might want to meet the Deputy President during the break. [Laughter.]
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Speaker, you can help me with the question.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please repeat your question. Don't make a statement, just ask the question.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Speaker, currently there is an issue about the transformation and the review of the Constitution. Is it your considered view that the Constitution, as it is today, is still correct and that there is nothing wrong with the Constitution and with the powers that are assigned to various executives?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, quite frankly, I am not aware of any talk about reviewing the Constitution. I am only aware of what the Minister of Justice communicated yesterday, which is the reviewing of the judgments of the Constitutional Court, but I am not at all aware of reviewing the Constitution. The Constitution remains the supreme law of our country and we all owe allegiance to it. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 97
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Speaker, one wonders about these types of questions and obviously one needs to get a type of platitude answer the question deserves. If we move away from the platitude, Mr Deputy President, the question I want to put to you is about the culture of democracy. We know what the Constitution states, we know the basics of constitutionalism, as we should, but how do we promote the culture of constitutionalism?
How do we prevent the Minister of Justice from issuing a discussion document in which he has an executive policy that speaks about judicial restraints, which is a shock to anyone who understands constitutionalism? How do we prevent the same Minister of Justice from discussing a scorecard on the activities of the Constitutional Court, because that is what it actually means? How do we prevent this type of constitutional deviation in the mindset when even the President here thinks we can talk about a media tribunal? How do we deal with issues like the banning of the Dalai Lama? Somebody is chirping in the background.
How do we justify the fact that tomorrow morning the Speaker and I will be locked in a courtroom and the Speaker and I, through a contingent of three lawyers flown in from Johannesburg, have to restate the right of Members of Parliament here to introduce legislation which each and every democratic Parliament has and which our Constitution gives and which our rules have taken away?
There is a huge gap between the Constitution and the constitutional mindset which has not developed. How do we bridge that, Mr Deputy President?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, culture by definition is a historical phenomenon and therefore the culture of constitutionalism will also be a historical phenomenon. There is only one way of entrenching constitutionalism. It is by education, education, education, and practice, practice, practice and drawing the requisite lessons from how we experience the Constitution itself.
Sometimes that will happen in a way of contestation. We should not be alarmed by that. As long as we do that within the framework of the Constitution, and as long as that leads to a better understanding and grasp of constitutionalism, that culture will take root. If we emphasise prevention, prevention, prevention and don't, don't, don't, then the Constitution will only be understood by the privileged few.
We want it to be rooted and we must create an environment in which it can be debated and understood because it is through that kind of education, practically, that it will be able to be rooted in the hearts and minds of our people. Thank you. [Applause.]
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 97
THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, the discussion document which was released by the hon Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development yesterday noted that the reasons for the assessment of the Constitutional Court rulings was to evaluate the court's decisions against a desired transformation landscape. In fact, Minister Radebe's statement yesterday further confirmed our fears in the Democratic Alliance that the government wishes to co-opt the judiciary into its political policy programme through the mechanism of co-operative governance.
Constitutionally co-operative governance is limited to the three spheres of government – local government, provincial government and national government and the judiciary should be left to interpret the law free form any political interference. My question: Is this the purpose of the review? Is the purpose of the review to render the judiciary an extension of their executive arm of government; and if so, how does the government reconcile this with the constitutionally enshrined principle of the separation of powers?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, no, that is not the intension. That is not the purpose of the review. I am sure the Minister Radebe will be able to answer that question. The separation of powers is what we accept, that the three arms of the state have separate powers and have to work in a co-operative fashion but independent of each other, in a manner that enhances and consolidates our democracy. None of these three is superior to the others. These are equal arms of the state.
The practice of constitutional review only serves to ensure that we comply with the prescripts of the Constitution. Parliament in legislating should comply. The executive in adopting major policy should also comply. That is the responsibility that is given to the judiciary. It does not therefore make them more senior, stronger or powerful than the other two.
If, as legislators, we craft legislation with the understanding that it must be within the framework of the Constitution, the Constitutional Court would not have the need to pronounce on that at all. It will simply certify that it is indeed in line with the Constitution. If, as the executive, we take a major policy decision, we ought to take the trouble to ensure that it complies with the Constitution.
The separation of powers is very clear. They should not be blurred. We have no intention of doing so. Thank you.
PEACE AND SECURITY – QUESTION 2 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 98
QUESTION 4 – THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT
Question 2:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Speaker, baby Mbatha, the newborn baby of Nosipho Mbatha, died of natural causes at the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital on 19 January 2011, two days after her birth. The baby was never admitted at Johannesburg Female Correctional Centre and, therefore, was not registered at all. As a result, the death could not be reported via the normal electronic reporting system of the office of the Inspecting Judge as no admission reference number had been allocated to the baby, since she died in hospital before her admission.
Baby Janse van Ransburg, the newborn baby of Mariaka Janse van Ransburg, died at the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital on 23 December 2010, two days after her birth in hospital. The baby was never admitted at Johannesburg Female Correctional Centre and, therefore, could not be registered at all at that centre.
The only incident that was registered, which took place in Durban, was that of an aborted foetus on 24 March 2010, at about 00:30 in a communal cell. Thank you.
Mr V V MAGAGULA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 98
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr V V MAGAGULA: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, one dead infant is one death too many. What policies and training have been put in place by the department to prevent any further deaths in our Correctional Services? Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, well, as you would realise, those babies died almost at birth. However, what we do in the department is, as soon as we detect that an inmate is pregnant, we separate her from other inmates and give her specialised treatment. That is what we do. Since January 2009, no infant had died in the Department of Correctional Services' centres. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 98
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, I just want to know whether or not you have gynaecologists in your department to prevent this from happening. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, I mentioned that we give the expecting mothers specialised treatment, which means that there must be professionals who do the job. Thank you.
Adv L H MAX
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 98
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Adv L H MAX: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, given the fact that the law does not compel the department to report the deaths of infants to the judicial inspectorate - because the infants are not regarded as inmates - do you intend to propose an amendment to the Act to compel the department to report such deaths? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, we would be willing to consider looking into that. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 36 – THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 99
QUESTION 2 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 36:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I wish to refer the hon member to a discussion document on the transformation of the judicial system and the role of the judiciary in the developmental South African state, which I released yesterday. That document deals extensively with the question that has been raised by the member.
Coming to the statement that the President made in relation to the powers of the Constitutional Court, that statement is entirely consistent with the ongoing debate on the question whether the Constitutional Court should be the Apex Court with general jurisdiction, and what impact there would be on its composition and sitting. Similarly, the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development is currently considering the Constitution Seventeenth Amendment Bill and the Superior Courts Bill which also look at the powers of the Constitutional Court.
Let me reiterate that the approach adopted by Cabinet with regard to the assessment of the impact of the decisions of the Constitutional Court on society, which has been linked to the President's statement, is not an isolated matter but form part of a package of recommendations, which relate to the transformation of the judicial system and the role of the judiciary in advancing the ideals of the Constitution.
Let me once again reaffirm our commitment as the ANC-led government to the Constitution as the embodiment of the values of the ANC that it stood for and fought for. The ANC-led government will defend these values, including the independence of the judiciary and the rule of law. Thank you.
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 99
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Justice yesterday pledged to uphold the independence of the judiciary and the Constitution. However, his statement does not support this commitment and it remains unclear what the ultimate purpose of this review process will be.
In responding to the outcry over the President's comments, the President's spokesperson, Mac Maharaj, said that we should view the President's comments on changing the powers of the court in the context of this assessment. The President's remarks were clearly different to what the Minister is referring to here, which is the question of jurisdiction. He was talking about the powers of the court.
The report that was released by the Minister yesterday has failed to clarify the very purpose of this review and it has not allayed fears that the review will precede an amendment to the powers of the Constitutional Court.
Will the hon Minister provide this House with the assurance that Cabinet will not propose changes to the powers of the Constitutional Court, regardless of what the outcome of this review process is? Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, the document that we released yesterday is not a document about reviewing the powers of the Constitutional Court. It is a discussion document on the transformation of the judicial system and the role of the judiciary in the transformation project. So, can the hon member take time to read this document and not be influenced by party politics of the Democratic Alliance?
The statement by the President was even clarified by his office so that it is not misrepresented by what the DA wants to read in what the President has said. The DA itself, in the Portfolio Committee of Justice and Constitutional Development, has views about the issue of the Apex Court in the Constitutional Court.
So, there is nothing unusual in what the President said. Everybody expresses opinions on what has to happen. If you care to read the Constitution Seventeenth Amendment and the Superior Courts Bill, you will realise that the comment that you are trying to make is ill-founded. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs D A SCHÄFER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 99
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Madame Deputy Speaker, Minister in your own discussion document released yesterday, you quote from the UN's basic principles on the independence of the judiciary and cite a number of key elements that are critical to the independence of the judiciary, namely, prohibition against inappropriate and unwarranted interference with a judicial process and no revision of judicial decisions, except through judicial review.
Does the Minister agree that his so-called assessment is potentially such a revision of the decisions of the Constitutional Court contrary to this UN's principle and which poses a danger to the independence of the judiciary; and if not, why not?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I don't agree with the hon member's assertion. There is nothing in the document that suggests that we want to encroach on the independence of the judiciary. The track record of the ANC government since 1994 affirms the fact that we are the ones that respect the independence of the judiciary more than other people in this House.
As we speak, President Zuma is the first President of the Republic to sign a proclamation to create the Office of the Chief Justice as a step towards reaffirming the institutional independence of the judiciary. If we were inclined to encroach on this independence, why will we go about such fundamental transformation of the judiciary in South Africa? So, that is why I'm saying that you must read the document without being influenced by party politics to gain cheap votes from the electorate. [Applause.]
Mr L T LANDERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 99
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr L T LANDERS: Deputy Speaker, arising from the hon Minister's reply, how would he respond to Wits University's Prof Steven Friedman's analysis of government's document as being an invitation to South Africa's civil society, including our judiciary and legal profession to engage in the debate on the transformation of our judicial system and the role of the judiciary in our developmental state?
Secondly, would the hon Minister also agree that the establishment of the Office of the Chief Justice is testament or proof of the ANC's commitment to the independence of the judiciary and the enhancement of the powers of the Constitutional Court?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I agree with Prof Friedman. In fact, it is a challenge to South Africa. We are inviting them to enter into this national dialogue because the issues of the judiciary are so important. They play a very critical role in advancing the ideals that the Deputy President indicated in our Constitution.
All those who want to participate, even the DA, are being called upon to express their views in this document. I agree that Prof Friedman is correct. We are going to see a dialogue in South Africa in which people should express views about the judiciary, in as much as they express views about the legislature and the executive.
On the issue of the creation of the Office of the Chief Justice, it is a further affirmation of our deep commitment in creating institutional independence of the judiciary, unlike what is happening at the present moment where some of the functions are being handled by the Department of Justice. So that, as I have indicated, is the first step towards this institutional independence of the judiciary. Thank you.
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 99
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Deputy Speaker, Minister, on the point that I raised with the Deputy President yesterday on reality and perceptions, we all have read, or we should read the judgment of the Constitutional Court. We all ask ourselves what they mean and what impact they have on the legislation we are adopting.
When you Minister invite us to think about the exercise of the government function to embody that activity, the people of South Africa, the legal fraternity cannot but read that government exercises a scorecard, an assessment, a government function leading to the assessment of whether the Constitutional Court is doing well or is not doing well, whether one agrees or disagrees with it. How can we not step back and say this is an attack on the independence of the judiciary, if that independence, as the hon Schäfer was reading before, means to have a measure of executive restrain? Thank you. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, I would suggest to hon Oriani-Ambrosini to read the document, but I don't think he has read it. In any event, many legal organisations in South Africa have supported this initiative.
The Black Lawyers Association has been unequivocal in supporting this dialogue and the basic tenets that are enunciated in the document. The National Association of Democratic Lawyers, Nadel, supports this initiative and in the phone-in programme this morning with the Deputy Minister on SAfm, the majority of South Africa applauds this initiative. I was at Kaya fm last night and it was the same story.
So, this notion that the majority of people do not support this is not borne out by the facts. We are going to work with the majority of South Africans in advancing the transformation agenda of all arms of the state. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 28 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 100
QUESTION 36 – THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Question 28:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, the Department of Correctional Services did not award any tenders for food and nutrition services in 2012. The existing contracts were extended by one year. Moreover, this decision was consistent with legal advice that was sought by the National Bid Adjudication Committee which advised that, under the circumstances that prevailed, the department could consider extending the existing contract for the time period that would be required for the publication of a new tender, in compliance with supply chain management procedures.
At no stage in the work of the National Bid Adjudication Committee was this advice or the further legal advice from two other practitioners ignored. The national commissioner, secondly, has instituted an investigation into various aspects of management of the nutrition services contract in the department over the past 18 months to determine any possible managerial failures, any possible systems failures, any possible misconduct, to enable the department to avoid such situations in future. Where there has been failure, remedial action will be taken; and, if necessary, practical steps will be taken against officials who are so implicated. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mnguni, do you have a supplementary question?
Mr P B MNGUNI: Deputy Speaker, I am happy with the explanation from the Deputy Minister.
Mr J SELFE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 100
Mr P B MNGUNI
Mr J SELFE: Deputy Speaker, this re-award of the contract to Basasa is only one element in a very long ongoing saga. This contract was first awarded in 2004. It was extended in 2007. It was re-awarded in 2009, and now it is being re-extended again. It was the subject in an investigation by the Special Investigation Unit, SIU, and it is the subject of criminal procedures in a court of law.
It is quite clear that this contract is rotten to the core. The question that I want to know is whether the Ministry will ask the President to appoint a full investigation into this contract and its extension; and if not, why not? [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, aspects of the contracts which are under investigation and before the courts are sub judice. I think I have already answered the question when I said we have, in fact, been looking at this contract over the past 18 months. There is a process of investigation going on. Thank you.
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 100
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, can you give this House the assurance – because this is the third time that this contract has been renewed – that you have been briefed about the termination or the renewal of this contract. What will happen if you find out that other people are involved? Will they be fired or criminally charged? What will happen to them?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Deputy Speaker, whenever the law has been broken in this country, the rule is that it must take its course. Someone must be held accountable for their actions. Let me say, regarding the termination, we have said to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, we are preparing to take the function over by this time next year. Apart from that, we have agreed with the Standing Committee on Public Accounts that on their part, they shall visit our facilities on a regular basis, and that we shall report to them on a regular basis with regards to the progress made in the process of acquiring these services ourselves. Thank you.
QUESTION 6 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 101
QUESTION 28 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 6:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, the answer to the question is yes. The department will endeavour to fill the existing vacancies as a matter of priority and it is also reprioritising posts between the different refugee centres throughout the country. In this regard, the department hopes to shorten the turnaround times in relation to the filling of natural attrition posts at the various reception centres. Thank you.
Mrs M M MAUNYE: Deputy Speaker, currently it takes up to two years or longer to approve or turn down applications for refugee status, which has various implications as refugee applicants are allowed to work and live in South Africa in the meantime. However, we need to acknowledge that our resources are limited and, thus, we can only operate within a particular fiscal framework. Therefore, Deputy Minister, what steps have been taken in the Ministry to speed up status determination and the deportation of those whose applications have been turned down? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker and hon members, various efforts have been made in this regard. The chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs would know that one of the things that we are doing and have already achieved is a faster turnaround time when it comes to newly arrived asylum seekers to our centres. No longer does it take up to two years to process those applications, particularly if they are manifestly unfounded applications. In addition, I am happy to report that there is sufficient and pleasing progress in this regard; we can outline the initiatives when we have more time. Perhaps the portfolio committee will invite us to address this issue in more detail.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 101
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Deputy Speaker, I was hoping that the Deputy Minister would put more meat on the answer to the initial question. My question is with regard to South Africa having the world's highest number of annual individual asylum applications, numbering approximately 250 000, with the next country being the United States at approximately 53 000 annually. In addition, we only have five reception centres in the country, which means that on average each centre is processing about 50 000 applications annually. This is more than just about the turnaround time; it is also about reducing the backlog that continues to grow all the time. What plans are in place and within what timeframe will you or your department deal with this dire situation so that we can get up to date and process the current applications? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, I would very much like to engage members of the House on this issue which I think should receive more attention than it has previously. As indicated, one of the things that we are doing is to ensure that we process the application, because that is what the question is about. The other endeavours would be in relation to seeking to have bilateral agreements with other countries that are also signatories to the same conventions and have the same obligations as we do when it comes to asylum seekers, but, which, nevertheless, allow asylum seekers to pass through their countries to South Africa, thus avoiding placing any obligations on themselves. That would be yet another initiative we hope to embark upon, but that is taking us away from the essence of the question. As I have said, I am very happy to speak to the portfolio committee on this issue and give more detail. Thank you.
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 101
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Madam Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, somehow the hands of South Africa are tied because our legislation must reflect the contents of the Geneva Convention, which is over 50 years old and which was created for a different environment and for different reasons. As the hon De Freitas correctly pointed out, we are the one country in the world which may suffer the most because of the obsolete features of that convention. During the time of the hon Buthelezi's administration of Home Affairs – when the beautifully dressed Minister Sisulu was the Deputy Minister - we looked into the need to promote a reform of the Geneva Convention and we teamed up with Australia to engage on the Geneva Convention and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. When the hon Buthelezi left Home Affairs, the entire process was stopped. The question is, what is it that your department is doing to promote the amendment of the Geneva Convention, without which the amendment problem will remain?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, I think I heard the hon member asking what we are doing to promote the amendment of the Geneva Convention. I am not sure whether that function lies within our jurisdiction, and it certainly does not lie within our portfolio. I often wonder what Mr Ambrosini was doing in the first administration when he was the advisor to Minister Buthelezi in this regard. But, no doubt, he is going to share that with me at a later stage. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 26 – THE MINISTER OF POLICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 102
QUESTION 6 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Question 26:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Deputy Speaker, the national instruction on promotions in the SA Police Service currently allows people who have been investigated for wrongdoing to be promoted. It provides that employees against whom criminal or disciplinary investigations are pending or who have criminal convictions or findings of misconduct may be considered for promotion.
The SAPS is suppose to pay due regard to the merits of the cases to establish the suitability of a member, and only members found suitable are promoted. My answer with regard to this situation, hon member, is that I am not happy. Some members were promoted based on this very instruction.
Furthermore, in terms of this instruction, some members who were found not suitable for promotion were not promoted. For example, a certain member in KwaZulu-Natal was conditionally promoted, but subsequently dismissed on 21 June 2011 due to the seriousness of wrongdoing before promotion was effected.
Despite the above, I wish to inform Parliament that in December 2011, on my instruction, a joint team from Civilian Secretariat for Police and the SAPS Human Resource Development conducted an extensive audit of the disciplinary processes within the SAPS. The actual audit has been completed and the final report will be submitted to my office by the end of March 2012.
However, the preliminary findings of this report highlight a number of deficiencies in our approach to disciplinary matters. In some cases, the audit even resulted in cases being reopened, and, in other cases, the officials involved in the disciplinary process - that is those who were presiding – end up being charged.
The national instruction on promotions, as it currently stands, does not address issues of discipline management sufficiently. As a result, this national instruction and the implementation thereof are being reviewed and, as part of the final audit report, weaknesses will be rectified. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 102
The MINISTER OF POLICE
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sekela likaSomlomo, Nyambose, ngiyabonga ngempendulo ethe xaxa. Esengicela ukukwazi ukuthi kuyokwenziwa njani ngalabo abanyuselwe izikhundla ngendlela engafanele? Ngabe bayokwehliswa ezikhundleni noma bayoxoshwa, noma-ke kuyoxoshwa labo ababanyusele ezikhundleni bengafanelekile? Yilokho nje kuphela esengifisa ukukwazi ngoba impendulo yakho isingisizile kakhulu. Ngiyathokoza.
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Lungu elihloniphekile, lolu udaba oluyofakwelwa izibuko, lucutshungulwe ngoba kufanele sikhumbule ukuthi sizobe silungisa okonakele. Laba 'bantu abanyuselwe ezikhundleni abazinyusanga, kepha banyuswe yilo mqulu esiwulungisayo.
Okusho ukuthi ngenye indlela, ngeke sikwazi ukuthi uma umuntu esenyuselwe esikhundleni, kungeyena ozinyusile bese simehlisa. Ngoba unyuselwe esikhundleni nje kungexa yalo mqulu obavumelayo. Yiwo lo engithi awushitshwe, uhambisane nesimo ukuze abantu okufanele banyuselwe ezikhundleni banyuswe. Ngiyabonga.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 102
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
English:
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Deputy Speaker, at my behest, the Public Protector is investigating irregular promotion practices in the SAPS, which became endemic under the suspended National Police Commissioner.
As we were told perfectly, clearly and categorically in our portfolio meeting, it was Bheki Cele who personally signed off the boost of retirement of pension packages to the value of R31,2 million - section 35s - for top SAPS members, some of whom are under criminal investigation. Considering that, until recently, the buck stopped with him, what consequences were there for Bheki Cele when he followed this practice, in light of the fact that the Minister's staff stated that should those members be found guilty, there is no way to recover the money? If they are found guilty, will you take steps to get the money back and stop those pensions or are they also getting a free ride?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Deputy Speaker, firstly, let us clarify this misconception from the hon member. The national instruction, which is going to be reviewed as I have instructed, was not passed by General Cele. It was passed in 2006. So, you must get your facts straight first so that you are informed before you comment. That will ensure that you don't just shoot from the hip.
Secondly, I don't know of any law which recovers the pension of a person who has gone on pension. Maybe you are going to assist with regard to that, if you have some legal clout in so far as that is concerned. [Interjections.] I have just warned you, member, you must be informed whenever you're asking a question. Don't just ask, because we are not going to take you seriously. [Applause.]
Ms D SIBIYA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 102
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms D SIBIYA: Hon Deputy Speaker, pending the final outcome of the report, will the hon Minister consider taking action against managers who promoted people who do not qualify? If yes, how? If not, why not? [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Definitely, it has to be looked into over and above the national instruction. However, the people who were managing the process also have to be scrutinised because the audit goes beyond those people who have been promoted up to those who, actually, promoted them. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 21 – THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 103
QUESTION 26 – THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 21:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker, the Department of Defence and Military Veterans has a constitutional responsibility over the land and sea borders in order to ensure the integrity of the country. In view of the magnitude of this responsibility, we have decided to break this down in phases. We have started this in April 2010. We expect that our land borderline will have been covered entirely by the end of 2014.
Our assessment of deployment is carried out on a regular basis. We also get regular feedback from relevant communities and stakeholders. In our phased approach we prioritised the Mozambique borderline for the reason that this is the most porous and the threat that is posed, especially to the endangered species the rhino.
I wanted to take this opportunity to indicate part of our successes with this message, which I received last night from Minister Edna Molewa, one of our stakeholders as Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs. She sent me an sms saying, "Dear Comrade Lindi. Good evening. I have been suspecting that we have an inside job in this rhino poaching matter. My suspicion has been turned true. I wish to thank you and the special task force that is deployed in the Kruger National Park, over and above the border patrol team that you have. Our appreciation is done and due today because we have arrested five of our employees for killing two rhinos and stealing their horns". [Applause.]
I would like to add that appropriate action has been taken by the Minister internally as well as the fact that this matter has been given over to the police. These are some of the responsibilities and success that we have scored from being at the borders. We have recovered livestock, the totality of which is 1 435, which is a real relief for those farming communities along our borders.
In the last 18 months we recovered 76 stolen vehicles. I am certain that this has brought down the level of hijacking because we have closed off the route from which these cars were driven through to our bordering areas. We have confiscated contraband goods to the value of R81 million. We have arrested 35 000 illegal immigrants. Out of those, we have redirected the genuine refugees to declare themselves at the proper border posts.
In areas were the SA National Defence Force is deployed, the soldiers are helping the local communities with building and renovating of their infrastructures, churches, schools, etc. In looking over and assessing the impact that we have had, I am very satisfied that the decision we took to go back to the borders was a very good one. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms P N DANIELS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 103
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Ms P N DANIELS: Madam Deputy Speaker, through you, I would like to tell the hon Minister that I am impressed with the collaborative and collective approach that she has shared with this House. However, I did not hear, hon Minister, whether you have enough capacity and resources to ensure that our border line is secured. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, ask sweetheart question when you want. Don't make noise, please. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon member should know that the reason why we took on a phased approach is precisely because we do not have the necessary capacity, nor do we have the resources to cover the entirety of the border line. [Interjections.] That's because we do not have the money. The money is allocated by Parliament. [Interjections.] I think that is the silliest question I have ever had to respond to. We do not have the money.
We now cover three priority areas and are hoping that we will go on to the fourth one by the end of this year. What is good about this approach and the work that is being carried out at the borders is that we are able to incorporate the reserves who otherwise would not have been employed. So far we have taken on and employed 15 000 reserves, providing 15 000 households who need jobs with a much needed income. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr D J MAYNIER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 103
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Mr D J MAYNIER: Deputy Speaker, before I ask my question, I must complement the Minister on her dazzling outfit this afternoon. [Laughter.] [Applause.] We support the deployment of the SA National Defence Force on our borders and recognise what they have achieved there. The fact is that we are not serious about safeguarding South Africa's borders, because we have more bodyguards protecting South Africa's Ministers and their mansions than soldiers protecting our borders.
We have 16 722 police protecting South Africa's Ministers, but only 1 050 soldiers protecting South African borders. It's a monstrous political scandal. So I would like to ask the Minister if she agrees, in the light of these shocking facts, that what we really need is to ramp up the deployment of the SA National Defence Force on our borders beyond the 1 650 soldiers she envisages in this financial year. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker, we are here on a very serious matter of protecting the integrity of this country. I do not have time for grandstanding and ranting and raving. I thank you. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Once again a Minister is not answering a question. The Ministers are in this House to answer questions, and she is talking about grandstanding. If that was a grandstanding, I don't know what is. Could you please order the Minister to answer the question? [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker, the question that came across from there, heckling, was why are we not covering more of the borders. We do not have the resources or the funds. If we had the funds to do that, we would have by now covered the entirety of our borders. That is my responsibility. If I had the money, I would be there.
You are bringing in a matter that has nothing to do with Defence. The question that you are posing to me is directed at the Minister of Police and not me. I am answering on behalf of Defence. If you give us the money, we will be there. You can stop being a jack-in-the-box and sit down. [Applause.]
QUESTION 24 – THE MINISTER OF POLICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 104
QUESTION 21 – THE MINISTER OF POLICE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Question 24:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Speaker, the policy regarding standard lease periods is determined by Public Works and not by the SAPS. Nevertheless, the SA Police Service's request to the Department of Public Works to enter into a lease agreement with a minimum lease period of five years is based on the approved building programme of the SAPS. However, this is dependant on the strategic plan of the SAPS which is currently being reviewed.
The maximum lease period acquired by the SAPS was nine years and 11 months. This is supposed to be for the high sites – which are those sites where radio equipment is used – due to the fact that radio frequencies do not change that often. Any leases that were signed for 99 years were done by the Department of Public Works prior to the devolvement of the lease budget to the SAPS during 2007. I thank you.
Rev K R J MESHOE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 104
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, it is difficult to understand why the SAPS does not have a policy that concerns the buildings that they themselves are leasing. According to one of the documents that we were given in the committee, there is a place in Ekurhuleni where the SAPS pays R1 292 per square meter, and the term of lease is written as 99 years. This is an official document that we were given in a meeting.
Now that the Minister is saying that the maximum period is nine years, how is it that the documents that come from the same department contradict what the Minister has said right now? Regarding how much is paid per square meter, we have never heard of any place where the charges are more than R1 000 per square meter. [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Umfundisi [Rev] Meshoe, there is no contradiction between what I have said and that document. If you had followed clearly, I said that, before 2007, many leases were signed for 99 years. From 2007 to date – from the police's perspective – it is nine years and 11 months. So it's not a contradiction. What you are reading is what had happened before 2007. Ke a leboga, ntate. [Thank you, Father.] [Applause.]
Ms A VAN WYK
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 104
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms A VAN WYK: Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Minister, despite everything that has been said in the report about the SAPS to the committee and the answer that has been given, will you agree and consider giving an instruction that the SAPS management takes a greater hands-on approach in terms of managing lease contracts by, for example, giving the Department of Public Works due notification of contracts that are going to expire. They can then indicate whether they want them renewed or whether they are looking for additional accommodation, so that we don't have a situation where the contract runs out and the department needs to lease on a month-to-month basis. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon member. The SAPS – over and above what has been said are the problems with Public Works – cannot absolve itself on the issue of infrastructure, including the monitoring of some of the things which are being done.
I recently had meetings with the management of the SAPS and I told them that it's all well and good to say that the fault lies with Public Works, but what is their responsibility? So, the infrastructure, which is meant for the police, has to be taken up by the police themselves. As a result of that, some of the infrastructure which is now under discussion is the buildings which were built by the SAPS itself. These cannot be said to be better than those built by Public Works. That is why we are talking of other partners to help, because clearly the police have not excelled in the area of construction. Besides, I don't think that it is their area anyway. Thank you so much. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 104
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sekela likaSomlomo, mhlonishwa uNyambose bengicela ukubuza ukuthi kulezi zindawo okutholakala kuzona ukuthi intela ikhokhwa kakhulu ebe aziwa umuntu okukhokhwa kuyena kube kungafanele ukuthi kukhokhwe leyo ntela. Ngabe izobuya kanjani noma uzoboshwa yini lowo muntu eboshelwa ukuthi uyasigebenga ngokuthatha intela engafanele na?
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Unzima lo mbuzo owubuzayo lungu elihloniphekile ukuthi izobuya kanjani imali. Uyabona lungu elihloniphekile ezinye zalezi zivumelwano ezikhona zindala kakhulu futhi abanye abantu bakhona abasekho. Yingakho nje noma uzwa kukhulunywa kakhulu ngezindaba zezivumelwano zokuqashisa zamaphoyisa kukhulunywa ikakhulukazi ngabantu abamnyama. Izivumelwano zokuqashisa amaphoyisa zingaphezulu kwenkulungwane lungu elihloniphekile. Iningi lalezi zivumelwano ziphethwe ngabelungu kodwa akukaxoxwa ngakho kusazokwenziwa. Sizoyibheka nayo le ndaba ebikade ishiwo ngumfundisi ukuthi kukhona abantu abaqolayo ngokukhokhisa umphakathi. Nakho lokho kufuna sikubheke ngoba wonke umuntu phela owenza into engahambi kahle akufanele kubhekwe ukuthi unjani ebusweni. Kufanele kubhekwe ukuthi wenzani futhi ungubani. Lolu cwaningo esikhuluma ngalo lufanele lukuveze konke lokho ngoba uma lungakuvezi luyobe alusisizi entweni esifuna ukuyenza. Ngiyabonga kakhulu.[Ihlombe.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 104
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
English:
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Police is overseeing what is a chaotic property system of endless leased buildings. I have to tell you that the staff had to do an audit because they didn't even know how many leased buildings the SAPS had. They are blaming the staff who came before them, and when they came before the portfolio committee, they blamed the staff who came before them.
What I would like to know – considering the chaos – is whether the Minister, instead of telling his staff to talk to Public Works, is not making an effort to speak with an admittedly totally dysfunctional Public Works Ministry, and at least hold a conversation with them in an effort to perhaps have the buildings purchased, which would save us millions of rand?
Failing that, can the Minister, at the very least, have the leases renewed before our SAPS members are actually locked out, which is happening more and more, often when Public Works simply forgets to pay the rent. It's a ridiculous situation and the buck stops right there.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, you are correct. It does stop here. The issue here, as I have explained to you, is what happened with the leases and what should be happening going forward. What you are referring to is members who came and said something else that is not related to anything that we have been talking about today. You are referring to what you have written to me here, namely section 35. We have not spoken about that. We are talking about the leases and I am saying to you that we are doing what we are doing, as I was responding to the member. You were here. I think you were not listening, as usual, but I am saying to you, please listen. You just have to listen. [Laughter.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Point of order, Madam Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What's your point of order?
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: If I may just inform the Minister that the note I wrote to him was about question 26 which we discussed 20 minutes ago. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: That's not a point of order. Hlala phansi awazi ukuthi ukhuluma ngani [Sit down, you do not know what you are talking about.] [Laughter.] Deputy Speaker, we will continue doing this. As I said, we are engaging other partners, some of which are state agencies, to ensure that they assist in coming up with leases as we continue with the audit of the leases themselves. Part of the reason why he, sorry, she, doesn't like these leases is because maybe some of the people are her friends ... Yes, you are a "she". Sorry, she. [Laughter.]
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member. [Laughter.] So ... she must wait, because maybe these are ... She must wait. She is a "she". Hon she, sorry. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Continue Minister. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, I am disturbed by "she". [Laughter.]
NOTICES OF MOTION - Mr G R MORGAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 104
QUESTION 24 – THE MINISTER OF POLICE
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr G R MORGAN: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House-
(1) debates the high incidents of rhino poaching in South Africa; and.
(2) come with solutions to curb poaching.
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Mr G R MORGAN
Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the merits and demerits of holding a referendum on the death penalty.
Mr S MOKGALAPA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Mr V B NDLOVU
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA
That the House-
(1) debates the use of alternative building technologies for human settlement development; and
(2) find ways to save costs and improve standards.
Mr X MABASA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Mr S MOKGALAPA
Xitsonga:
Tatana X MABASA: Xandla xa Xipikara, hi ku yimela vandla ra ANC ndzi susumeta leswku eka ntshamo lowu landzelaka:
Yindlu yi va na njhekanjhekisano hi Pulani ya Rixaka ya Nhluvukiso tani hi rimba ra rixaka na pulani ya nhluvukiso leyi nga na nkoka ku kondletela tiko ra hina ku lulamisa mitlhontlho ya swa nhluvukiso wa vaaki na swa ikhonomi.
Mr G SELAU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Mr X MABASA
English:
Mr G SELAU: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates creating an economic climate which will produce more entrepreneurs from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Ms K R MAGAU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Mr G SELAU
Ms K R MAGAU: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the role of the African Union and regional formations in conflict resolution on the African continent.
Mr K P SITHOLE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Ms K R MAGAU
Mr K P SITHOLE: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the current state of low maintenance and upgrading of our hostel complexes which are currently dilapidated and unsafe.
Ms L N MJOBO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Mr K P SITHOLE
Ms L N MJOBO: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates strategic measures to deal with the lack of sporting facilities in townships.
Mrs F F MUSHWANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 105
Ms L N MJOBO
Mrs F F MUSHWANA: Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the development of languages in line with developmental priorities on public broadcasting including governance, management and content programming.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 106
NOTICES OF MOTION
INTERNATIONAL YEAR OF CO-OPERATIVES
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that the United Nations General Assembly has declared 2012 as the International Year of Co-operatives, with the theme "Co-operative enterprises build a better world" highlighting the contribution of co-operatives to socioeconomic development and particularly, their impact on poverty reduction, employment generation and social integration;
(2) believes that co-operatives can develop the economy to respond to social change and create jobs;
(3) further believes that, because of their distinctive focus on values, co-operatives have proven themselves to be resilient and viable business model which can prosper even during difficult times; and
(4) urges government to devise measures that are aimed at creating a supportive environment for the development of co-operatives as well as raising awareness about co-operatives, and to help encourage support and the development of co-operative enterprises by individuals and their communities. [Applause.]
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 29 February 2012 Take: 106
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Mr Ertjies Bezuidenhout)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes with sadness the passing of South African cycling legend, Ertjies Bezuidenhout, earlier today;
(2) further notes that Bezuidenhout suffered a massive stroke on Sunday shortly after competing in a cycle race;
(3) acknowledges that Bezuidenhout, widely renowned for his competitive demeanour and unparalleled climbing skills, won the Rapport Cycle Tour in 1984, followed by three Argus titles, winning the race in 1981, 1984 and 1986;
(4) further acknowledges that, at the peak of his professional career, Bezuidenhout won a stage of the prestigious Giro d'Italia Cycle Tour in 1979;
(5) recognises his contribution to cycling and sport in South Africa; and
(6) extends its condolences to the family of Ertjies Bezuidenhout.
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 17:14.
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