Hansard: NCOP: Questions: Cluster 3: Governance

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 07 Sep 2011

Summary

No summary available.

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Minutes

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 377

THURSDAY, 8 SEPTEMBER 2011

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

The Council met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 14:01.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery have agreed that there will be no Notices of Motion or Motions without Notice.

Before we proceed, I would like to inform the House that I have received apologies from Minister Baloyi, Minister Chabane, and Minister Xingwana. Therefore, the questions addressed to these Ministers will stand over.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 377

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

QUESTIONS

Cluster 3: Governance

Question 72:

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you. Chairperson, comrades and friends, in response to the first question, which is No 72, we want, firstly, to point out that we think that it is a very good question, because it links issues of capacity and resource constraints with strategies to grow the economy, and that is a holistic response to dealing with corruption.

The department has, in fact, established the Anti-Corruption Inspectorate, whose mandate is basically to monitor trends of corruption in municipalities and to assist municipalities to deal with corruption cases, but also to be preventative and encourage amongst councillors and officials a sense of ethical conduct. The inspectorate has only recently been formed. It has a lot of potential, obviously, but it is too early to say exactly what its effectiveness is.

In respect of the first subsection, we have personnel there - a leader and some staff - and together they do have the skills necessary for investigation and training. However, obviously over time we will empower and capacitate them further. With regard to the second subsection, the budget for the inspectorate for now - the current purpose - is sufficient. Regarding the third subsection, the department is committed to local economic development. We think job creation is crucial if we are to reduce corruption. We are committed to co-operatives and we have also launched Business Adopt-a-Municipality, where we encourage the private sector to partner with specific municipalities, as it is in both their interest and the interest of municipalities to work together. Thank you indeed.

Mr M H MOKGOBI: I am satisfied.

Mr A G MATILA: Chairperson, I appreciate the answer given by the Minister. However, can he provide details around whether or not we are winning the fight against corruption?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you. Firstly, as you may well know, in the North West the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the President have initiated a Special Investigating Unit, SIU investigation into all of those municipalities. There have been several arrests and there are cases pending.

Elsewhere, too, through various forms of responding to corruption at municipal level cases have been initiated. Only yesterday you will have seen in the media the case against the Deputy Mayor of Msunduzi, Pietermaritzburg.

Clearly the matter of municipal corruption should not be exaggerated. It is not as if municipal councillors and officials are all corrupt. It is not as if municipal corruption is greater than corruption at the national and provincial levels. I think that to deal with corruption at the municipal level one has to tackle corruption in society as a whole, not least in the private sector.

As you well know, Government set up recently, in the last six months, an anticorruption unit led by Minister Baloyi. This will complement the work of the SIU, the SA Revenue Service, the Financial Intelligence Centre, the Hawks, the SAPS, etc.

Corruption is not something that can be resolved overnight, and it cannot be separated from the challenges of dealing with poverty, inequality and joblessness. So, we need a holistic strategy, and not least in our attempt to reduce corruption at municipal and every level is the role of this august House and its MPs in their parliamentary work and also in their constituency work. Thank you.

Mr A G MATILA: Chairperson, I accept and agree with the answer given here.

However, as the Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs we have been going through section 139. We have given the department a lot of recommendations, both at provincial and national level. That is why we are asking for details now, so that they can beef up our understanding of whether or not work has been done. In most municipalities it is not happening. We are not asking about what is happening at the national and provincial level. We are saying that that is the situation in regard to local government. I think that the Deputy Minister is not providing that particular answer. I would therefore like to get some answers in as far as that is concerned. That is because the North West, for example, was in a mess before we went to the local government elections. The beautiful province called ... [Time expired.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Matila, your time for asking your follow-up question is over.

Mr A G MATILA: Thank you. I think they know what I am talking about.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let me clarify this. You say you have made recommendations to the department; I am just not too sure of whether or not the Deputy Mister has received those recommendations. Maybe what we should ask is whether or not they have seen those recommendations and whether or not they are working on them. Can we get an answer to that? I am just putting that question because he might not have seen the recommendations. I am not saying that he must not answer the question. I just thought that maybe that would be the correct way to put it.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson. Firstly, by specifics I understand precise events and processes. I referred to the 25 municipalities in my answer to your question. With regard to the North West, I talked about the SIU investigation initiated by the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. I also referred you to yesterday's media reports on the previous day's appearance before the court of the Msunduzi Deputy Mayor and a team of officials for transgressions and municipal corruption. I have also referred you to several other cases. So, regarding specifics, I am not sure how much more specific you want it to be. However, we can actually, if need be, give you a written answer on every specific case.

But, may I point out that, in fact, it is very easy for the department to respond before the portfolio committee, and we commit ourselves to doing so. There are officials here in the gallery, and they will note that. We commit ourselves to appearing before the Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.

I am unaware of any specific cases that have been brought to my attention by the committee in the recent past. But presumably it is in the Minister's office and I will confer with the director-general and the Acting Minister. We suggest that as soon as possible the Select Committee dealing with Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs asks us to appear before it, and we will answer for what we have done in respect of proposals that have been made to us on how to deal with corruption. We are very interested in working with the portfolio committee and the NCOP.

Mr A WATSON

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 377

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Mr A WATSON: Thank you, Chairperson. Before I ask my question, of course, on this very subject let me say that every one of our visits ends up with a report drafted by this House, which should find its way to the Minister's office. That is just by the way.

The Minister says that strategies to grow the economy at the local level are in place. Can I just ask whether the Minister and his department actually interrogate the outworking of these strategies to find out if the money available - by means of intergovernmental transfers or whatever the case might be - is actually spent on growing the economy at the local level? I am asking this because our information, our own research, in my province has proved that a lot of the money spent - I am not talking about corruption, but I am talking about the actually money spent - finds its way into the hands of contractors and suppliers from outside the province, who then bring their own people into the province to do the work. In this way the structure is built or the service is rendered, yes, but the local economy is not stimulated and job creation does not take place at the local level, where the local population are, and where it should be taking place.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The responsibility to monitor local economic development and other economic development and job creation strategies resides both with Parliament and the executive, but also with civil society. For our part, obviously, we work with the provincial MECs and we have in Minmec and other structures where we meet with the provincial MECs raised these issues.

We are aware that in our State of Local Government report, which you well know is possibly the most extensive investigation of what is happening in municipalities that we have ever done since 1994, we arrived at the conclusion that, yes, there is a lot of money that has been mismanaged and that the job creation that has been promised has not happened. We have been quite open and transparent that, given the resource capacity and other constraints at municipal level, local economic development is not easy to actually give effect to; there are no easy answers in this regard.

But, what we have seen in the more recent past, especially with the New Growth Path and the greatest stress on job creation in the President's state of the nation address, is that municipalities are taking this more seriously. It is in their self-interest, moreover, because the more jobs that are created, the better their constituents or citizens are able to pay for services.

In one very important respect I think we have been doing especially well by any measure, including that of the civil society actors who monitor us, and that is in the Community Work Programme. We exceeded our targets, as you well know; we reported to you on this in the budget speeches for last year. In fact, regarding the aim, we got 80 000 jobs created across a wide range of municipalities in this country and we are now seeking to escalate this. The National Treasury and we are looking into more funding for that. So, the Community Work Programme has been quite a remarkable success.

Mr M C MAINE

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 377

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Mr M C MAINE: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, I am from the North West. I would like to know how long the investigation by the SIU will take, because over the past two years there has been only one arrest in Madibeng. Has the department investigated why most of the deployees, who were administrators and who were deployed by the department itself, are being fired by the same municipalities? Were there interventions? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: We raised with the SIU at the very outset the need to speed up the investigations. Unfortunately, as members must know, the SIU is challenged resourcewise, moneywise and in other ways. To investigate all 25 municipalities in the province is no easy task. We have done what we can to put pressure on them, but obviously as politicians there are limits to how much we can interfere in the corruption investigation processes which belong basically to these investigating agencies. It is not just the SIU that is investigating those municipalities in your province, but also in different ways, the Hawks, the SAPS and presumably also, though I cannot prove this and I do not have the evidence before me – that is why I said "presumably also" - Sars and the Financial Intelligence Centre, etc.

However, you are right, there are not enough conclusions of investigations. The process needs to be speeded up. I think we should be held to account for what we can do, and all we can do is to put pressure on the SIU. But, they keep telling us that, besides the North West, they have the rest of the country to contend with, and, given the scale of the task that they have to attend to, they unfortunately cannot move faster. This is a matter that we need to address to the Department of Justice and the Ministry of Justice, their securing from National Treasury more funding and resources to ensure that the SIU is able to act faster. We are very clear as Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs that the process needs to be accelerated.

In respect of people being deployed and the like, we as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs are in fact going to Madibeng and other municipalities from 15 October. We are engaging with the MEC and the Premier in this regard, and you know that the situation there is extremely challenging. The political terrain is extremely complex and it is not as if we can find easy technical or government answers to what are fundamentally political problems, primarily of course within the majority party.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Matila, four supplementary questions have been asked, and that is the end of supplementary questions.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 378

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Question 74:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, during the 2004-05 financial year, the three municipalities concerned did not receive municipal infrastructure grant, Mig, allocations. These funds were actually allocated to their district municipality, the Siyanda District Municipality, to implement on behalf of the municipalities.

Subsequently, the Mier and Kai !Garib municipalities – I apologise, because it's a Khoisan word and I regret that I may have got the pronunciation wrong, which is my fault really - started to receive Mig allocations directly in the 2005-06 financial year, and the !Kheis Municipality started receiving allocations in the following years, from 2008-09 onwards. From the inception of the Mig until the end of the 2010-11 financial year, the three municipalities received allocations of R16,5 million, R41,5 million and R19,6 million, respectively.

I have a table here, Chairperson, and I am quite happy to give it to the hon member and to actually take her through it. There is also a table that responds to the second question. It's a series of statistics and I would suggest, with your and the members' agreement, that we ask our parliamentary liaison officer, Jazz Mokoena, to ensure that she gets this this afternoon. If she cares to, she can engage further with us, but obviously she might want to put follow-up questions here. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES: Because of those tables, Mr Deputy Minister, I would request that we should perhaps table them and forward them to all members for their information.

Mr J J GUNDA: Chairperson and Deputy Minister, I would like to put just one question. What we would really like to know is: Has any progress been made in the development of the infrastructure in these municipalities? I hope that the paper that you have in your hand will provide us with some detailed plans as to where and how these municipalities will set up developmental structures. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, indeed, let me give you two examples in regard to the Mier Municipality. There is the upgrading of the external water supply to Klein and Groot Mier, and there is an allocation of just about R4 million for that. In regard to Rietfontein, there is the construction of 1,83 km of road for R4,5 million. It does actually say that.

Now, I would like to point out that we obviously work with the municipalities to get some of this information. As you know, there are three spheres of government. We have to work with the MECs and we rely on them and the politicians at the municipal level to give us information.

The first port of call of oversight resides with the local legislatures in the provinces, and the provincial governments. The second port of call of oversight, if you like, resides with us at the national level. However, actually the most fundamental point of oversight resides with the people that live there.

Therefore, when we give you this information, we base it substantially on the information we are given by councillors and officials, but what would really help us, besides the assistance of our own MECs working in the provinces, is for parliamentarians living in those areas to tell us when the information we get is not accurate. They need to answer to Parliament and really that's not happening.

We are very keen on this, hon member. We will give you, say, about two or three months for you to go through this. If you live in an area or nearby, you can help us by drawing the attention of the national Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to the fact that the information is not accurate. We rely on people like you. Thank you indeed.

Mr K A SINCLAIR

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 378

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I have a follow-up question relating to two of the municipalities, namely !Kheis and Kai !Garib. In regard to service delivery, those two municipalities have had quite a serious challenge regarding flood damage in the recent past, since December 2010. Would it be proper for these municipalities to engage with the authorities regarding assistance from Mig funds with recovery and repairing the damage to the infrastructure in these specific municipalities?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Firstly, in respect of disaster management, as you know there is a National Disaster Management Centre based in the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. It brings together several relevant departments. When there are floods or droughts or even snow, as happened recently, we engage with National Treasury about releasing funds and we do it through a collective effort.

Now, clearly, in the first instance, the resources and fund allocations from the National Disaster Management Centre and from the national fiscus must be targeted at the natural disasters that occur. But clearly too, infrastructure is often severely damaged and the Mig has to be used, in part, to address this where it is appropriate and part of the integrated development plan, IDP, and so on. So, yes, we can draw on the Mig funds, but primarily it is a matter of getting the national fiscus to attend to the tasks involved in dealing with disasters.

We want to repeat that, given the scale of the disasters we've been having over the last three years or more - which is a sign, of course, of the climate challenges beginning to impact on us - we just don't have enough resources. Besides the two municipalities you referred to, there are many other municipalities throughout the country that are challenged in this way, and we simply don't have the resources.

Therefore, we're focusing on preventative measures and we are reviewing the Municipal Disaster Management Bill in order to take into account what we know about the possible impact of the environmental challenges that the whole world is coming to terms with. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 379

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Question 75:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Our reply to Mr Bloem's question is that the department was informed of the allegations of corruption in the Matjhabeng Municipality during the 2009-10 financial year.

The MEC then appointed an investigating team in terms of section 106(1)(b) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act. Details of maladministration and irregularities at the municipality are contained in the report of the investigating team. This report will soon be tabled in the municipal council and thereby become a public document.

I am informed, by the way, that the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs invited the relevant people to appear before it, I think on 23 August, but the meeting was postponed. I gather that the committee will very shortly be seeing the representatives of the municipality who are relevant here. So, presumably there too, through the committee, you will get a first-hand idea of where things are.

In reply to part (2) of the question, the department has indeed conducted an investigation through an investigating team appointed by the MEC in terms of the relevant section of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act.

Concerning subsection (b) of part (2) of the question, the municipal council will take appropriate action regarding these allegations, once the report has been tabled before it. The provincial department will assist the municipality in this regard, if and when it is required.

In reply to subsection (ii) of part (b) of the second part of the question, the provincial head has informed the office of the Minister about the section 106 investigation, as required by subsection 3. The report will be forwarded to the office of the Minister in due course.

Regarding subsection (iii) of part (b) of the second part of the question, the amount of the municipality's budget which was found to be wasteful and fruitless expenditure is as follows: Unauthorised expenditure is R216 million; fruitless and wasteful expenditure R14,1 million; and irregular expenditure R14,3 million.

Subsections (iv) and (v) of part (b) of the second part of the question are replied to as follows: The council of the municipality will identify allegedly corrupt employees when the report is tabled before it. It will then take appropriate action against those found to have transgressed the law. To date, no employee has been suspended or dismissed following the report. Thank you.

Mr D V BLOEM

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 379

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Mr D V BLOEM: Chair and Deputy Minister, thank you very much. Minister, it was reported on 12 June 2011 that the Matjhabeng Municipality went on a wild spending spree. It was also reported that the municipality spent R1,6 billion of its budget of R1,7 billion on expenditure unaccounted for. Deputy Minister, this is in the latest Auditor-General's report.

This report further says that R200 000 was paid into the account of former Mayor Mathabo's husband by a company that was irregularly awarded a tender of R15 million. It also says that the former municipal manager, Dr Benny Molokoane – I know him; he's from Kroonstad – signed questionable tenders worth R80 million. He signed ten of them in one day, before he resigned and joined the company that benefited from the tenders. He signed them. Minister, I am very sure that you will agree with me that this is a very serious problem.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please put a supplementary question, hon Bloem.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chair, I would like to know whether the Deputy Minister agrees that that this is not their thing, but something for the law enforcement agencies of this country to investigate further.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chair, firstly, if all of these allegations are correct, then what is going on is outrageous and reinforces the case for us to intensify our campaign against corruption.

Obviously the law – the legal and investigative processes – must take its course. However, there is nothing to stop Mr Bloem from writing a formal complaint. Maybe you should write to me directly rather than to the acting Minister, and I will forward your letter to the investigating authorities to expedite the matter.

We don't know about these matters and we can't sit in Parliament and decide on the guilt or otherwise of those involved. Regrettably – I'm not saying that this is necessarily such a case – what does happen, elsewhere in the world too and not least here in our own country as an emerging democracy, is that if you want to deal with your political adversary, you will tend to smear them, and one way of doing so is to accuse them of corruption. We have repeatedly said that we must separate political smearing from genuine cases of corruption. If this is a genuine case of corruption, let the law take its course and let us all – not only the municipality, but also the MEC and the provincial legislature, you as the national legislature, and we as government – learn the lessons.

So, can you please write to us so that we can send the letter to the relevant investigating authorities? We will also CC the letter to the municipal officials and councillors of that municipality. We think that this should be thoroughly pursued. Yes, indeed.

Mr D A WORTH

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 379

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Mr D A WORTH: Chair, through you to the hon Deputy Minister, I would also like to have a copy of the Deputy Minister's replies, as Matjhabeng is part of my constituency.

My other question concerns a report on Matjhabeng Municipality that was done a year ago, called the Ramathe Fivaz report. An investigation took place, and there was a detailed report on Matjhabeng and the goings-on there. This report has never seen the light of day. Is there any chance whatsoever that we could get a copy of that report which was done at that time? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: I'm not very clear about the nature and meaning of the report and its legal status but, again, if the gentleman, the hon member, could write to me, I will contact the mayor and ask if the report can be released.

Sometimes these reports cannot be released for legal reasons, because the evidence against people who are identified in them as having transgressed the law is not substantial enough. Such persons have the right to take a municipality to court for suggesting that they have transgressed the law when there isn't substantial evidence of that. As a matter of interest, we have suggested to municipalities that where there are aspects of a report that are legally vulnerable, they could exclude such and give us the rest of the report. But I think that we will be quite prepared to pursue getting a copy of the report. I'm not aware that we have a copy of it. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 380

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS:

Question 78:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: We reply as follows. In response to section (1), municipalities are owed over R64,6 billion in debt. National and provincial governments owe R2,9 billion of that, and I think it is very interesting for us as legislators. All this throttles the capacity of municipalities to deliver quality services. We are working with the National Treasury to assist municipalities to implement revenue enhancement strategies to assist them to raise more revenue to help them meet their service delivery demands.

Firstly, we have started a process to review the Intergovernmental Fiscal Framework. A fiscal review summit, which hopefully the Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, members in this House will play a role in, is planned for February 2012.

Secondly, we do not have the information asked for under (2). However, according to the Fourth Quarter Local Government Section 71 Preliminary Report released by National Treasury on 1 September 2011, municipalities owed R16,2 billion to their creditors as of 30 June 2011. As to what percentage of this is owed directly to financial institutions is unfortunately not yet known.

Thirdly, on whether we will make a statement on this matter, the Minister will consider making a statement as soon as the final section 71 report is released. May I point out that this matter of the debt owed to municipalities has been, if you like, a challenge that many of us, not least the chairperson when he served on the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government in the National Assembly, have been preoccupied with. The most unacceptable part of it is that the provincial and national departments do not pay! We will be very keen on it if the NCOP can also put pressure on them, especially on provinces.

One lesson was drawn from the Eastern Cape Province at one stage. At every second provincial cabinet meeting a standing item on the agenda was: What do provincial departments owe municipalities? How much has been paid? How much has not been paid? Why has the money that is supposed to have been paid not been paid? We think that this should be the norm in all provincial cabinets, including our national Cabinet really.

Municipalities simply must get the money that is due to them, especially from the provincial and national government departments. It is untenable, unacceptable and almost ridiculous that these monies are not paid.

We should finally say, too, that there is a section of consumers who are not paying but who can afford to pay, like civil servants, teachers, business people and others. They must pay.

However, there are those who are indigent and they just cannot pay. With over one million people having lost their jobs in the post 2008 global crisis, obviously the national government must come to the rescue of municipalities in respect of those who are genuinely indigent and cannot pay. We cannot expect local government to bear the burden of joblessness and a lack of economic growth. That is really ultimately the function of the national government to attend to.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 380

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Deputy Minister whether can he provide us with the details of the different municipalities? That applies to sections (1) and (2). Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The National Treasury, as the institution responsible for the Municipal Finance Management Act, has such information. Obviously, I don't have it here, but our parliamentary liaison officer is noting this and will reach out to the members concerned, and no doubt the chairperson's office, and we will give you that information. It is not information that comes from our own investigation and work, but from the National Treasury. They have quite detailed statistics in this regard. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 381

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Question 79:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, section 106(4) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act indicates that the Minister may request the MEC to conduct an investigation on fraud, corruption, maladministration or any other serious malpractice which, in the opinion of the Minister, occurred or is occurring in a municipality. The MEC must table the outcome of the investigation in the provincial legislature within 90 days from the date the Minister requested the investigation, and must simultaneously submit a copy of the report to the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, the Minister of Finance and the NCOP.

The above section does not give authority to the Minister to instruct the MEC to table the reports. However, once the investigation has been conducted, either at the instance of the MEC or the Minister, the MEC has an obligation to table the outcome thereof within 90 days from the date the Minister requested the investigation.

Therefore, the Minister does not need to instruct the MEC, since a legal obligation already exists. As you, in this House, know better than anybody else, in terms of section 41(1)(g) each sphere of government must obviously not exercise its power and function in a manner that encroaches on the geographical, functional or institutional integrity of government in another sphere. Therefore, it is questionable whether the Minister can do what the hon member suggests. However, nothing stops us from engaging informally with the MEC concerned, and that is something we would be prepared to do.

In reply to subsection 2, the section does not give the Minister the power to conduct an investigation at his or her own instance. However, the MEC has this obligation that we spoke of, and this is something that we need to engage with the MEC on. Thank you.

Mrs E C VAN LINGEN

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 381

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Mrs E C van LINGEN: Hon Chairperson, this House is where the three spheres of government get together, and one of the issues that you constantly raise for us is making the various levels of government communicate with one another. I would like to call on the Minister to understand that when we bring questions like this to the Ministry, it is because we are not getting any response at local level or at national level. That is why we are coming to the Minister.

Now, he quotes section 41(1)(g) that says he may not ask the MEC to do so, but the MEC is under the obligation in terms of section 106(4) to produce the documents within 90 days. How are we going to resolve this, because this is now in a stalemate situation?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon member. Hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I think the member is completely out of order now. She is now reading to the Minister what he is not supposed to get. I think he knows that. Let us get the question.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ms van Lingen, what is your supplementary question? Just come to it. We have heard the first part. It is all right. What is your supplementary question?

Mrs E C van LINGEN: What is the next option that I have which I can take?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, firstly, I did give an indication there. You see, we have to abide by the very laws that this House passes, and, no doubt, you passed the law! So, if we do transgress the law, then you will hold the executive to account and say, "You have done something outside the law."

Secondly, I am very struck by the contradictions in people. They will say, "No, no, no, national government, do not interfere. Local government is autonomous; it is independent. It is a sphere. Do not interfere." On the other hand, if we tell them that we cannot interfere in some of these things because a law that you as legislators have passed prevents us from doing so, and it is not consistent with the view that we have three spheres, then we are told, "No, no, no, we want national government to interfere, intervene and intrude on the powers of, in this case, provincial government." So, you cannot have your cake and eat it.

What I also want to say, though, is that I have indicated in my answer to the question formally that while these are the legal prescriptions, we can engage with the MEC informally, and I commit myself on behalf of my Minister to seeking to do that. If you give us a month or so - there are three people here from my office and from the department who are taking notes - we will come back in regard to this. You can hold us to account, because Hansard will cover what I have said on behalf of the Acting Minister, who regrettably cannot be here, but who conveys his good wishes to this House.

I also want to say that in my humble view it is important for us to hold the executive to account without abdicating our responsibilities as legislators, who are really the power. Parliament is the organ of popular power, not the executive. So, when a Member of Parliament asks what he or she is to do, in the first instance it is the provincial legislature that must actually put pressure on the provincial MEC. That provincial legislature must hold the MEC to account and, if that process fails, then presumably the NCOP has to say, "The provincial legislature has done its bit, and now you are holding us to account."

So, in short, we will work with informal channels to attend to this matter. As the executive, we are accountable to you as the NCOP, but we have to act within the law. While we do what we can do, the power does not reside with us as the executive. The power resides with you as Parliament. That is where the people's power is. We can do what we can, but we can also be fobbed off, as sometimes happens.

Look at Education, for example. We have a section 100 intervention. It is quite open, in the public domain. There are people in the Eastern Cape who have required of the President to go there and intervene and say, "We have a section 100 intervention. We are one government with three spheres, not a federal state, and if you are meeting challenges in Education, the national Minister must come in," and so on.

So, we have these issues, and they are inevitable. There is nothing unique about South Africa. This happens all over. In fact, we have far fewer problems than elsewhere where you have this three-tier or three-sphere government. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

UNREVISE HANSARD

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

Thursday, 8 September 2011 Take: 382

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

Question 80:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, firstly, on section (1), the Minister will request the MEC for Local Government and Traditional Affairs in the Eastern Cape to investigate whether all the requirements of Schedule 3 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act were adhered to in the election of the Speaker/Mayor of the local municipality concerned.

Secondly, if the investigation reveals that they have not adhered to all the requirements of Schedule 3 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, a request will be made to the MEC. Yet again it is this point, that we can't as the national sphere intervene; you would be the first people to attack us. As the NCOP, you represent the power of the provinces. You would be asking us what we were doing there. So, here again it is the MEC, madam, that we have to work with. We will be requested to ensure that the matter is referred back to the municipality and that the Act is followed to the letter.

With regard to section (2), the re-election would obviously only be considered after it had been confirmed that Schedule 3 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act had not been adhered to during the election of the Speaker/Mayor. Thank you.

Mr A J NYAMBI: Chair, through you, on the same question, could the hon Minister assist and give a time frame for or the duration of the process of dealing with this matter.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, well, it would be reasonable to say that on Monday we will write to the MEC and convey the concerns of the House, and our need for information. We will CC the letter to you. If we don't, you can hold us to account the next time the Minister or I appear before your House or in any other forum. You can obviously call us before the committee.

We are quite happy as Cogta. In regard to whatever we have committed ourselves to doing, if the Cogta Select Committee can call us before them in a month, we can give them a reply. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All right. There is no other follow-up question. Somebody is whispering there, and I don't know what you are saying. If you are asking a question, do so, and don't whisper. Are you asking a follow-up question, Mr Sinclair? [Interjections.]

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, you said I mustn't whisper! I've just asked where the real Minister is. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What do you mean? You are out of order. [Interjections.]

Hon members, that concludes the business of the day. Members are just reminded to stay behind. There is a briefing after I have adjourned the House.

Mr A WATSON: Hon Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: Let me first thank the Deputy Minister because he is always willing to come and speak to the NCOP.

We postponed this meeting last week because Ministers couldn't make it, and today the only Minister appearing before us was the Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. I would like to register our disappointment that the Ministers still regard the NCOP as an inferior priority on their list of priorities. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. That's noted. Hon members, you are requested to remain seated until the procession has left the Chamber. Thank you very much.

The House adjourned at 14:46.

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