Hansard: NCOP: Questions: Cluster 4: Economics
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 21 Nov 2011
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 339
TUESDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 2011
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
_________________________
The Council met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 10:00.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
QUESTIONS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 339
START OF DAY
Question 86:
THE
Question 86:
MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W NXESI): Chairperson, in terms of our response to the question we are saying, yes, the department has a place in place for the training of artisans based on the maintenance and skills challenges experienced by the department and key clients in the department.
Skills artisans, trainee artisans – that is apprentices - and learners are recruited on 18 month renewal contracts. By artisans we are referring to those skilled workers who practice a certain trade or handcraft. Such persons should have recognised work experience and have passed the statutory workmanship trade testing by a recognised and certified institution. He or she should have a trade certificate or certificate of competence awarded under the recognition of the SA Chefs Association, Saca. By trainee artisans we are referring to those persons who have completed a minimum of N4 studies at a technical college. We require work-related experience to qualify to sit for the trade examinations. Of course the young learners would be those people under the national youth service.
The plan is for a total of 4 800 artisans, trainees and learners to be recruited as follows: for electrical we are talking about 660; mechanical 660; plumbing 900; general building 1 400; carpentry 540; welding, fitting and turning 120; and machine operators 220.
As a department we have taken the decision to prioritise and fast-track the revival of the department's workshops, which were closed, with the aim to provide job experience to artisans, trainees and learners and also to provide permanent jobs and to provide improved client services, because relying on outsourcing is not very helpful.
In terms of section 4 of the Government Immovable Asset Management Act, Giama, the Department of Public Works, managed by the Minister, is the custodian of these immovable assets that vest in the national government except in cases where the custodial functions were assigned to other Ministers by virtue of the legislation before Giama.
Chairperson, in short the Department of Public Works, DPW,will provide a list of government properties in Gauteng under the custodianship as soon as the current reconciliation processes have been finalised. The good news is that the reconciliation of all national and provincial state land commenced on October 2011. The process to verify the validity, accuracy and completeness of the list at hand is under way, which will be completed by 31 May 2012 in line with the departmental financial year and audit process.
This will be, and I must emphasise, a preliminary list based on a desktop analysis which will be subjected to further physical verification, which means the process is envisaged to be completed by March 2014. Moving from town to town verifying what is in the list is going to be a very important process.
On the third last part of the question, the participants of the Expanded Public Works Programme receive training as they implement the projects. The training is provided on both accredited and nonaccredited. The training provided is dependent on the needs of the particular project. In order to fund training on Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, projects the national Department of Public Works has signed a memorandum of agreement with the Department of Higher Education and Training to the funds to the value of R200 million over a year period from the National Skills Fund for training of EPWP beneficiaries.
The beneficiaries will be trained in all four sectors of the EPWP namely, infrastructure, social, environmental and culture in the nonstate sector. Examples will include working for water project, working with waste project and school nutrition. The programme targets training 20 000 beneficiaries in the 2011-12 financial year. Thank you, Chair.
Ms B P MABE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 339
THE
Question 86:
MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS (Mr T W NXESI)
Ms B P MABE: Hon Chairperson, with regard to the last part of the question, which is Question 3 I would really appreciate if the Minister can elaborate on the sustainability of the programme. Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, you would remember that the EPWP programmes are not necessarily long-term jobs. These would depend on the projects they are working on. Some of the projects are short-term, medium-term and others might be long-term. It is with an understanding that when you talk about maintenance on some of the projects those are ongoing programmes. It would be very difficult to guarantee that people will have permanent jobs in all projects, but some of them, if you talk about school nutrition, as long as the government is offering that, you can be able to guarantee some very sustainable jobs in that particular area. It depends on the programme. It is also our intention that we not talk about just very short-term jobs. It's a combination of all those.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL (Ms N D NTWANAMBI)
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 339
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
IsiXhosa:
UMBHEXESI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Enkosi Mhlalingaphambili, Mphathiswa, ingaba isebe lakho liyanxibelelana na neSebe lezaBasebenzi ukuze kwaziwe ukuba ngubani oqeqeshwayo, ingakumbi xa sinokuthi sifake izinto ezifana neeSeta kodwa zona ndisazikhupha okwangoku. Ingaba eli Sebe lakho liyancedisana na neSebe lezaBasebenzi ukuzama ukuncedisana nale ntswelangqesho ilapha phandle?.
IsiXhosa:
UMPHATHISWA WEMISEBENZI YOLUNTU: Ndiyabulela Mbhexeshi oyiNtloko weBhunga. Uyakukhumbula ukuba iinjongo zethu ngokwale mo intsha yalo rhulumente ithetha ngokugqalisa kwiziphumo. Ugqaliso kwiziphumo ke luthetha ukuba kuyanyanzeleka abaPhathiswa bamasebe ngamasebe bakhokele loo masebe besebenzisana ukuze ezo zinto bazenzayo ziphumelele.
Unyanisile ke ohloniphekileyo xa esithi kunyanzelekile ukuba xa sisenza isicwangciso seenkqubo zethu naxa silungiselela ukuzisungula iinkqubo ezo kufuneka sibonisane namanye amasebe. Liyinene ke elokuba siyanxibelelana neSebe eli lezaBasebenzi. Kungoko ke usiva sisithi kukho imali evela phaya kwela Sebe leMfundo ePhakamileyo. Lo nto ithetha ukuba sinxibelelana neeSeta kuba kaloku zizo ekufuneka ukuba zisincedise kolu qeqesho. Le nkqubo ayisayi kuphumelela ukuba alukho unxibelelwano namanye amasebe. Kufuneka intsebenziswano kwaye le inkqubo intsha yogqaliso kwiziphumo inyanzelisa oko.
Mr D D GAMEDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 339
THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
IsiZulu:
Mnu GAMEDE: Sihlalo, siyabonga izimpendulo esizithola kuNgqongqoshe, kulolu hlelo olwenziwayo yiMinyango lena. Ingabe mhlawumbe kukhona yini enikubhekele ukuthi kuyogxila lokhu kwemisebenzi ye-EPWP ekuthuthukiseni izindawo zasemakhaya? Kukhona yini enikubheke ngeso elibanzi ukuthi sengathi kungachema lokhu ezindaweni ezisemakhaya?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Empeleni uma ngiphendula umhlonishwa ubab'uGamede sibhekelele ukuthi lohlelo lwethu kuzuze kakhulu labo abasemakhaya, ikakhulukazi amadolobha amancane nasezindaweni zasemakhaya ngoba kukhona lapho siye sithi indlala ishaya abantu bakithi kakhulu lapho kungenamisebenzi khona. Kepha akusho ukuthi kufuneka sinakekele labo kuphela. Nalabo abasemadolobheni kufuneka banonelelwe ngoba inkinga yemisebenzi ikhona emadolobheni nasemakhaya kodwa siyazi ukuthi abantu okuyibona abangenamathuba kakhulu yilabo basemakhaya. Kusho ukuthi uhlelo lwethu lushaya kulabo basemakhaya luphinde lushaye kulabo basemadolobheni kodwa kakhulu siyazi ukuthi inkinga yokungabi bikho kwamathuba emisebenzi inkulu kakhulu emakhaya. Siyabheka ukuthi sibanakekele nabo.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 339
THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
English:
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon Chairperson, I think there was a fault in the translation. My question to the hon Minister is a follow-up.
Chairperson, to the Minister, is there any memorandum of understanding or agreement between your department and private companies outside, because we know and understand that when these artisans complete their training they do have problems getting jobs?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, thus far I'm not aware of that agreement however, there have been discussions even at a higher level at interministerial level that when we talk about these training programmes we must include and look into the contributions of the private sector and parastatals. There is a plan that we must be inclusive in terms of tackling this particular problem.
THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 340
QUESTION 86 – THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS
THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is the Minister in the House, Deputy Minister? Well, we will move from question 87 to the next one. I didn't get an apology. I'm sorry, I don't know how to respond to that but we will follow up with the Minister. Hon Gunda, are you here? Alright, you heard me on that one.
QUESTION 88
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 340
QUESTION 86
Question 88:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, the National Treasury is of the view that the financial statements submitted by the national and provincial departments as part of the 2010-11 financial year cycle, are credible and satisfactory.
For the year under review about 28 departments – which is 71% of national departments – received financially unqualified audit reports; 10 of the departments – which is about 26% - received qualified audit reports; and one department received a disclaimer. This compares favourably with the audit outcomes where 23 national departments – about 66% - had received unqualified audit opinions and 12 had received qualified audit opinions.
In the provinces the audit outcomes remained largely unchanged. There has, however, been a significant improvement in the reduction of disclaimed opinions – from 8% to about 3%. Thirty-two per cent of provincial departments remained qualified in the 2010-11 financial year.
Capital assets remain the major cause for poor audit outcomes at both national and provincial levels.
Other key shortcomings that prohibit departments and entities from achieving clean audits include inadequate reporting on predetermined objectives; unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure; as well a noncompliance with laws and regulations and matters related to supply-chain management.
The National Treasury and provincial treasuries will continue to provide support to entities in their quest to improve their outcomes and financial management, which will invariably lead to improved results. Thank you.
Mr J J GUNDA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 340
THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr J J GUNDA: Chair, no, I only have one request for the Deputy Minister. Is it possible for us to have the report that the Deputy Minister has just presented here this morning?
Mr B A MNGUNI: Chair, the Deputy Minister says 26 departments got qualified reports and one of them got a disclaimer. Can the Minister tell us which department that is and what remedial action the Treasury is putting in place?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I wasn't ready to do naming and shaming, but we can make that information available. However, as I indicated at the end, the treasuries are continuing to provide support to entities in the quest to improve not only the disclaimers, but also to bring about an overall improvement in financial management. We will, however, make the name of the department available. Thank you.
QUESTION 89 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 341
QUESTION 88
Question 89:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, Question 89 has a number of parts. With regard to Question 89(a), which is about the President's announcement in his state of the nation address on 10 February regarding to the R9 billion job creation initiative as set out in the February Budget, R9 billion is set aside over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period and it is broken down as follows: R2 billion for this current year, R3 billion next year and R4 billion for the final outer year of the MTEF.
The Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, has been asked to administer the Jobs Fund with technical support from the National Treasury. The first call for proposals was closed on 31 July 2011 and attracted some 2 651 applications. The review of these proposals and follow-up consultations with applicants is still in progress. As at 15 November 2011, projects to the value of R352 million had been approved. Disbursements to the approved projects are expected to commence towards the end of November 2011.
With regard to Question 89(b), as to how many small businesses have been aided, the Jobs Fund will not directly deal with small businesses, but it will provide funding to the organisations that have the capacity and expertise to support small businesses – including the so-called incubator programmes, entrepreneurship support programmes and supplier development programmes of both the private and public sectors and social investment agencies. Details on sponsoring organisations will be provided when programmes are finalised, but preliminary indications are that at least 20% of Jobs Fund allocations will go to small enterprise development.
With regard to Question 89(c), training opportunities for young workseekers are a focus of many Jobs Fund proposals often tied to job placement agreements with potential employers. This appears to be a popular structure for indirectly subsidising job creation for young people. Clearly, these initiatives are not directly focused on creating new jobs, though they can play a valuable role in improving access to work opportunities and facilitating the transition from school or college to work. Over time, we will need to monitor the progress and effectiveness of these projects, thereby contributing to a better understanding of what works in the employment services industry and how to improve its functioning.
As to how many sustainable and decent jobs have been created, it is too early to report on those numbers. The DBSA estimates that about 115 000 workseekers will be assisted through the projects that have been approved to date, but this is of course just a start in the long-term challenge of accelerating the creation of sustainable and decent jobs. Let me repeat, these are just estimates.
With regard to Question 89(d, e, f and g), which sectors were affected and in which provinces did the job creations occur? The Jobs Fund calls for proposals that are received, applications covering tourism, manufacturing, agriculture, mining, financial services, social services, wholesale and retail sectors of the economy. The total number of applications came from all nine South African provinces and spread as follows: 39% of the applications came from Gauteng, 15% came from KwaZulu-Natal, 13% from the Western Cape, 10% from the Eastern Cape, 8% from Mpumalanga, 7% from Limpopo, 4% from the Free State, 2% from North West and about 2% came from the Northern Cape. Thank you.
Mr S D MONTSITSI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 341
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, arising out of the hon Deputy Minister's reply, with regard to the announcement by the President on the state of the nation address, on the creation of these job initiatives, I am mindful of the fact that the Treasury did give permission to both Old Mutual and Anglo American to list in foreign markets. This was done against the advice of the SA Revenue Service.
In asking this question, I would like to find out what is the shifting of these billions of funds to the outside borders of South Africa, with respect to the impact it has done to job creation and economic growth in South Africa? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, even though this is an ambush, because it is obviously not a follow-up to this question, but I would be quite happy to provide the hon member with the details of the offshore listing of those investments and perhaps engage further with the hon member on also with other parts of that particular investment. Thank you.
Mr B A MNGUNI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 341
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr B A MNGUNI: Chair, I hope this won't be an ambush again. [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please do not ambush.
Mr B A MNGUNI: Chairperson, with respect to section (b) of the question, how many small businesses have been aided? If my memory serves me well, about R80 million was channelled to DBSA through Industrial Development Corporation, IDC. My question is: Knowing that DBSA was very tardy and inefficient in helping small businesses, how does Treasury envisaged that DBSA will help small businesses; and how many businesses have been helped from this fund, if any?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, as we indicated the figures to the hon members – this ambush was more parliamentary [Laughter.] – and even though we are giving figures, at the moment these are preliminary figures with regard to how much went into small businesses. As I also indicated in the response, even though the Jobs Fund does not directly deal with small businesses it deals with a broader spectrum. It will provide organisations that also have the capacity and expertise to support small businesses and we are doing everything in our power to support the DBSA to be able to fulfil this responsibility. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 90 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 342
QUESTION 89 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
Question 90:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, the answer to the question is as follows: Before the establishment of the State Diamond Trader, the bulk of the trading activities of diamonds were taking place in Johannesburg. At the inception of the State Diamond Trader, it was found to be logical to select Gauteng as a hub, not only of South Africa, but for the entire sub-Saharan region if not Africa. Another consideration was that the central location of that province facilitated trade between the benefactors or the beneficiates and the international diamond traders. Therefore, that is one of the reasons that were given for keeping the State Diamond Trader in Gauteng.
When it comes to the second question, in general, hon Gunda would recall that the Northern Cape has already embarked on the Kimberly International Diamond and Jewellery Academy, Kidja, with the potential to develop into a full diamond beneficiation hub. There are also plans afoot to establish a gemmological institute in the province to train skills to support the beneficiation of other gemstones found within the province.
In addition, the legislature administered by the Department of Mineral Resources and in particular the Mining Charter as amended, is geared towards achieving the requisite growth by transforming the mining sector throughout the country. I thank you.
Mr K A SINCLAIR
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 342
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to pose this question. This issue has also been debated at length in the committee on various levels. The Minister previously indicated the reasons in a written question. Hon Deputy Minister, as you rightly said, the Minister then indicated that Johannesburg is strategically more suited to be the venue for the State Diamond Trader. Unfortunately, my party and I have a different view on this whole issue.
The question that I want to raise in principle, hon Minister, is whether you agree that the highest amount of benefit is derived at the source of mining when additional monies and time is spent, specifically at the source of the product, be it diamonds, iron ore, or manganese? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, I'm quite aware that this question can never be resolved now in this House. This is an old debate between the Northern Cape and Gauteng about the location of the State Diamond Trader. The facts as we see them today is that it is in Gauteng and obviously the party of Mr Sinclair and maybe other colleagues, were not happy with the decision.
As to what I think at this moment, the State Diamond Trader is in Gauteng and not in Kimberly. That is a fact. The State Diamond Trader is there. As regards my personal view, I'm sure we can engage outside of this forum. Thank you very much.
Mr R J TAU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 342
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, maybe we should just leave the issue in the House and not outside. In the previous Parliament the department and the Ministry made a commitment to look at the possibility and the feasibility of having the State Diamond Trader located in the Northern Cape. The reasons then were very progressive in the sense that, at the time, it was said that by relocating it to the Northern Cape it would in fact address the developmental challenges that the country is faced with. The developmental challenges raised at that time were skills retention, knowledge retention, economic growth, fighting poverty and the creation of jobs in the Northern Cape.
Now, I would really want the department or the Ministry to enlighten us as to what has changed from that commitment in the previous Parliament to this moment. Are the developmental challenges different, or what could be the problem? Thank you Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: They are all from the Northern Cape, Deputy Minister. So you will be confined to the House to deal with the question.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: The dilemma that I have, Chair, is that I'm also from the Northern Cape.
Having said that, the reality is that these commitments were announced, but the decision was taken to finally locate the State Diamond Trader in Gauteng. I was not privy to the discussion at the time as to why there has been a change from that commitment which was so progressive in terms of job skills and so on.
The advice that I can offer now is that this is not a lost matter in the sense that Kimberly has already started the process of the Kidja, to look into the issues that can address job creation, skills development and all the progressive issues around the diamond sector. Therefore, I can just say that maybe we should look into that avenue to try to see how we can achieve the same objectives by using what has been supported by the province as an economic activity of diamonds. Thank you very much.
Mr D A WORTH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 342
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr D A WORTH: Chairperson, through you to the Minister, for argument's sake, it is a known fact that 50% of all diamonds of De Beers come from Botswana. In fact, De Beers' companies are relocating their diamond-cutting works and everything to Botswana. How will this affect our diamond-cutting works? Is there no possibility of working with Botswana for the expertise and the knowledge thereof? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, obviously the issue of the Botswana cutting works or diamond industry is a commercial decision of De Beers. I don't know whether we can do anything about it at this stage. But in terms of cutting works, South Africa has got adequate skills for the beneficiation of diamonds.
We have lots of factories all over the country performing this activity. To a certain extend, our laws do allow and support the beneficiation of diamonds in the country. The Export Levy Act and the other diamonds levies Acts make provision for diamond producers to ensure that at least 15% to 40% is benefiting local estates.
Hon members will recall that De Beers has engaged into a form of site holders for a very long time, whereby they offset the levies for beneficiation. Basically there is a working progress in terms of how we can co-operate with Botswana in order for us to expedite or to grow the beneficiation.
We have to continue with what we have. There are diamond-producing mines in South Africa that are not supporting the Botswana activity. Botswana activity is mainly a De Beers activity. There are other mines producing diamond in the country that we should try to latch on to ensure that we develop the market. Thank you very much.
Mr B A MNGUNI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 342
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr B A MNGUNI: Chairperson, with regard to the second part of the question relating to the reform on the mining industry in the Northern Cape, could the Deputy Minister tell us how much of the industry has been reformed in accordance with the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act of 2002, which requires that by 2014, 26% of the industry should be in the hands of the formerly-disadvantaged people and how many mining houses have not complied?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Thank you very much Chair and thanks to the hon member for this question. Obviously, I don't have the statistics now relating to the compliance with the mining charter. But you would recall that we were not satisfied with the performance of the mining companies when it comes to the compliance with the mining charter to reach certain levels that they were supposed to have complied with in the past five years.
The targets that are in the charter of about 26% and 10%, skills development and all those have been revised. We are working day and night to ensure that they comply. The Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources in Parliament has been engaging with the public on most of the companies to check the status and state of their compliance with the charter.
So far so good, we have been able to get those who are really trying their best to comply and those who have been hiding behind certain constraints to be able to comply. We are serious to ensure that the charter is complied with, and I can assure hon Mnguni that we are going to work very hard on this one. Thank you very much.
QUESTION 87 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Takes: 343 & 344
QUESTION 90 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Question 87:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I see now the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is here. Minister, if you are ready, I just want to finish with your question on the first page asked by hon Gunda. That is Question 87. I am not sure whether you are ready, or should we give you some more time? You are ready? Over to you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: My apologies to the NCOP. I was up early but my flight was delayed, and I had no control over it. The question was whether we had strategies in place to restore the country's depleting oceans. Yes, the Fisheries and Aquaculture Management Branch of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and the Marine Living Resources Fund have over the past approximately 10 years initiated and supported the development of stock recovery plans for depleted fish stocks. The primary objective of these recovery plans is to recover the resources to the levels at which they provide the largest sustainable catches, while, at the same time, maintaining viable fisheries for these resources. The time required for a resource to recover depends on the current status of the resource. Thus, the poorer the status of a particular resource, the longer it is likely to take to recover.
The fundamental ability of the resource to recover is another depending factor. This is the result of the biology of the animals themselves and the rate at which they are able to reproduce and recover, and it is outside the ambit of human control.
Taking into account the desired continued fish harvest, the fastest recovery can be achieved if there is no fishing at all on the resource. However, this is not a practical option, and the speed of recovery is therefore traded off against social and economic considerations. With reference to the effects of environmental factors, environmental factors can have unforeseen, unpredictable and profound influences on the recovery of resources.
The direct intervention to rebuild fish stocks usually takes the form of reseeding and ranching programmes in which juveniles are bred in a hatchery and then placed in the sea to grow to maturity. The ability to perform reseeding programmes depends on the capability to breed large quantities of animals in captivity. Large quantities are required, because the vast majority do not survive to be harvested.
In South Africa at present, this technology is only available for abalone. The Marine Living Resources Fund has recently completed a thorough exercise to develop guidelines for abalone ranching and reseeding. This has included the identification of suitable areas for ranching and reseeding and investigation of the possible negative effects on wild stocks through introduction of diseases, etc, on sister stocks and on the environment and how to mitigate against these. The guidelines are expected to be published in due course. I thank you, Chairperson.
Mr D A WORTH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Takes: 343 & 344
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr D A WORTH: Chair, through you to the Minister, as part of the strategy for replacing depleting fish stocks, whether it be abalone or crayfish, does the Minister not feel that the penalties for poaching, most of it is illegal abalone poaching – you read about it every day in the papers, and I think the fine is something like R2 000 apart from what is confiscated – are the fines not relatively low? Does the Minister not think that would also partly - it won't solve all the problems – curb poaching? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I think that with the intervention of government departments currently on the abalone and illegal fishing of any other species, the strategy which we have now implemented is vastly more effective and that is why you have been able to see the speedy recurrence of us catching poachers. So, our antipoaching strategy is a whole lot more efficient and thus the frequency of catching poachers has also become more successful.
In the past, government departments had operated in silos. The Department of Justice, the Department of State Security, and SA Revenue Service, Sars, all operated in their silos. After we reopened certain species stocks, abalone in particular, we formed the security cluster which included the Defence Force, the SA Police Services, State Security, and it also includes Rural Development and the Department of Trade and Industry. So there is a group of departments who are now working in cohesion to fight any form of poaching, be it poaching of abalone, rock lobster or any other fish.
One of our recent huge successes was a first in the world where a large vessel which was headed for Hong Kong, China, was stopped in the Chinese waters and returned to South Africa with a huge container of illegal abalone. This was the first successful antipoaching operation of its kind and our government, especially the security cluster, worked with Interpol to intercept the illegal abalone container.
What we are also working on with the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs is to have satellite tracking of boats. Through satellite tracking you can actually place exactly where the boat has been. You will have a history of the boat's journey. So, you can even track pirate boats and track boats which have been involved in illegal poaching, and that process has also been quite successful.
But a successful antipoaching campaign will not be effective if our justice system is not tightened up. Our justice system is also now part of this strategy to curb poaching. The justice system is not just about the fines which are issued, but also the number of cases which do come before a magistrate and the success of these cases. We have not had the success story in the justice system that we would have liked. Now that the justice system is part of the interministerial committee, I am sure we will have a better success rate, not only of the fines or the sentences passed but also the success rate of the cases which we had been able to successfully conclude. Thank you very much.
Mr S D MONTSITSI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Takes: 343 & 344
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, with respect to the problem of poaching, I am mindful of the discussions which are currently taking place between the Minister's department and the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. I would like to find out whether it is ideal for the SA Navy to take over the responsibility of patrolling and protecting South African waters against poachers, in view of the fact that most of these poaching vehicles are actually armed, and given the capacity of SA Navy, most probably, the poachers will meet their match?
I just wanted to find out from the Minister if, given the current discussions, whether the Minister would oblige? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the antipoaching strategy is not just at the level of discussions; we have been implementing the interministerial decisions for over a year now. We have in fact presented our first report to the Cabinet, and the report has shown the increase in our ability to apprehend the villains and the poachers. But the poachers are part of very sophisticated syndicates, and these syndicates more often than not, include syndicates of drugs, rhino horn poaching, as well as counterfeit goods.
So, poaching is not a crime which stands independently, and Sars has also been quite helpful, Deputy Minister of Finance, to assist us to even look at the culprits' bank accounts and, through the assistance of Sars, we have also been able to nail down quite a number of these culprits.
Now, what we have is called a Joint Co-operations Committee, and this committee is already working. The navy, as well as the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, and SAPS, are our armed wing or armed patrol. A week ago, we also successfully launched an agriculture, forestry and fisheries project, in which we employed military veterans, former military soldiers, to protect our harbours.
These operations were first very primitive and they were in these rubber dinghies. Now you can imagine with these poachers having very sophisticated equipment and modern boats, our rubber ducks would trail behind like a real snail trying to chase some sophisticated boat. We have acquired four boats as phase one in the military veterans operation for the Western Cape, and we will then go to the military veterans operation in the Northern Cape, Eastern Cape as well as KwaZulu-Natal. These veterans are already well trained, and they have just received further training on how to fight at sea. In fact, the operation of returning the Japanese boat was spearheaded by the navy and the SANDF. So, the joint operations team works very well in a very co-ordinated way.
When you see an increase of reports on the apprehension of poachers, you should actually feel very good, because it is an indication that our operations had become more successful. It is not an indication that there is more poaching; it is more an indication that we are able to nail these culprits. Thank you.
Mr R J TAU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Takes: 343 & 344
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr R J TAU: Chair, through you, Chairperson, hon Minister, I guess we would all agree that the depletion of this fundamental resource is a threat for security in the country. An interesting thing that happened sometime back is that a select committee of the NCOP undertook a trip to India to go and study aquaculture and how it has been practiced and how it can also fit into our system of fighting poverty, especially in the rural areas and so forth. Only for the committee to come back to and realise that South Africa is in actual fact far ahead of India in relation to the question of aquaculture.
Just here, in the Gariep Dam in the Free State, they have a wonderful programme on aquaculture and so forth. The problem was the capacity of government to assist the Gariep programme or project to be expanded throughout the country because there was a lack of policy direction. Now the follow-up question would be, up to so far, are we still at the position where, as South Africa, we are developing policy or is there a policy now? If there is such a policy, to what extent is that policy being extended throughout the country in order to ensure that we breed and secure that strategic resource through the aquaculture programmes. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: This is indeed a very good question, not that others were not, but thank you for this opportunity. The depletion of our scarce resources is such a matter of concern that we are actually spending more money on trying to replenish our stocks than on any other project, even the scientific operations of fish.
I didn't even know that you need fish veterinarians and that there is only one fish veterinarian in this country. The investment in the science of fishing and aquaculture has been almost nonexistent in our country. Now, to address the matter of depleting stocks we have created a bio priority section around: Firstly, we have hatchery centres. Hatchery centres and aquaculture centres are also now forming alternative economic opportunities, particularly for those fishing communities who have lost their quotas and economic livelihood.
These aquaculture centres and hatcheries which we have were met with quite of bit of criticism. There is a scientific view that hatcheries is actually not a good way to replenish the stocks. There is a certain Mr Shai Mbula who keeps me very famous and popular in the newspapers about the policy decisions we have taken. Now, one of the critical and radical policy decisions we have taken in fisheries is to develop a smallholder fisheries policy.
Four years ago our government took a decision to give most of the fishing quotas to five large fishing companies. The communities along the West Coast of our country from the Western Cape to the Northern Cape lost their fishing quotas. Those communities have been subjected to tremendous hardships. They have lost their cars, boats, houses and their children stopped going to school.
We have now developed a smallholder fishing policy and it has gone through a first round of consultations. It will go through the Cabinet process as a draft and then it will go through a formal consultation processes. Obviously it's not a very popular policy document. It is receiving the support from the commercial sector, which we anticipated. The commercial sector has these quotas until 2013. When the revision of those quotas is out we would have an alternative fishing strategy and that is the smallholder fishing strategy. This smallholder fishing policy takes into account that our communities can facilitate in depleted stocks and because of their indigenous knowledge they can actually assist government in replenishing those stocks.
This is what we saw with abalone. All the abalone quotas were taken away from the communities. Last year we then gave them an experimental of 50 tons of abalone. We were criticised severely for doing it. What happened was that the minute communities received those quotas they became the custodians of their own resource and because they knew that the more the poachers were poaching the less they had for their own livelihoods.
I have two groups of scientists in my department and they gave me two completely opposing views. Have you ever seen two groups of scientists? They are experts and doctors and have PhDs, which I don't have. I'm a politician. I often feel like I have to divide this baby in two. One group of scientists would say that there were not enough stocks of abalone for me to give to the communities. If you are poaching more that 2 000 tons a month and you don't want to give the community 50 tons, where is this stock that they are poaching coming from?. You cannot say that the stocks are depleted when there is enough stock which is poached.
You can find stock to poach and then you must be able to find at least 50 tons to give to the community. We gave them 50 tons. The communities have now become the custodians of their own natural heritage and their own cultural heritage and they are assisting us police the seas. It is so phenomenal that in the middle of the night you will get a SMS saying that poachers are on their way out to Robben Island. Yet, they are good. The whistle-blowers are so good. Before the poachers actually get to where they want to dive you will receive an SMS.
It is also come at cost where we have been constantly harassed. It is not very easy to do this. Regarding the aquaculture policy, we have a partnership with the Chinese government. It is part of the bilateral agreement which we have with the Chinese government.
When we got into government there was this term. There was a huge blockage regarding the aquaculture project in the Gariep. We were able to bring in most of the equipment tax free. One of the hiccups was that at the harbour we could not release the equipment because the harbour patrol expected us to pay tax. With our intervention and the assistance of the Minister of the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, we were able to get our consignment of equipment. The Gariep aquaculture centre is ready.
Our aquaculture policy has also gone through its first round of consultations. It will come to you through the parliamentary processes for consultation.
It is very sad that in the fourth term of our government, only in the fourth term we are developing a smallholder fishing policy. Nobody believed in it before. It's very sad that it's only in our fourth term that we are developing an aquaculture strategy. The DTI, Environmental Affairs, Rural Development and the Minister of Rural Development have also come on board to assist us with the development of coastal communities. I hope that I have answered it with the detail that you required. Thank you.
QUESTION 91
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 345
QUESTION 87
Question 91:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Chairperson, hon members, freight demand forecast for the North and South Coast indicates high volume growth in rail freight between Richards Bay and Port Shepstone. Plans are being developed to properly address developmental needs in those areas to cater for the forecasted volume in growth. Transnet is not in a position, at this stage, to provide detailed information because the process is still in its early stages. Based on the foregoing explanation, the land will not be transferred to the local municipality. I thank you.
Mr D D GAMEDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 345
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr D D GAMEDE: Chair, I just hope the Deputy Minister doesn't come from KwaZulu-Natal, as it happened with the Northern Cape. However, if the Deputy Minister had to give advice, which steps must they follow in order for them to access that land, because that land is so much needed not only by the municipality, but by the provincial government as well? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Hon Chairperson, I should plead guilty of being from KwaZulu-Natal. I would like to make the hon member aware that last week Friday, as part of its provincial outreach programme, the department met with the premier of KwaZulu-Natal, the MECs of the province and heads of departments.
Part of the plan and process was to ensure that we conduct regional visits in all the provinces to determine the state of local economic development with regard to all agencies that fall under the remit of public enterprises, namely Transnet, Eskom, SA Airways, SA Express, Broadband Infraco, etc. Therefore, as part of that process, the issues that have been raised by the hon member will be addressed with the respective municipality. I thank you, Chairperson.
Mr A LEES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 345
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr A LEES: Through you, Mr Chairman. Minister ...
IsiZulu:
...mina ngizalelwe khona eSayidi, ngakho-ke ngiyazi kahle leya ndawo.
English:
Thank you for your reply, you have indicated an increased volume of freight traffic between Richards Bay and Port Shepstone. Currently, that line, the South Coast line, is hardly used at all. I walked along it a couple of months ago. It's, actually, rusty. Could you indicate to us what this increased volume of traffic entails? Which goods are going to need the use of that line?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, Transnet is currently engaged in an audit of all those lines. And as part of the programme that I have just spoken about, there will be a great volume of, amongst others, the transportation of coal as well as products produced in that particular area.
Mr K A SINCLAIR
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 345
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I'm not from KwaZulu-Natal, so I will try to look at this matter objectively. [Applause.] According to research, Transnet and Spoornet already agreed in 2005 to sell this land to the Hibiscus Coast Municipality. Our understanding today is that the Minister says that Spoornet might have made a U-turn on its decision to sell the land to the municipality. Am I right?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: My little understanding about trains is that it's very difficult for a train to make a U‑turn. [Laughter.] However, on the basis of what I have shared with the House, the hon member would be correct to surmise that there is a rethink. Transnet, at this juncture, is not keen to divest of the land because of what I've said earlier on. Transnet would like to participate in the development of the entire area, not only this particular town but the whole region. And as part of the greater provincial plan, all the relevant municipalities will be engaged so that the best benefit can be derived by all the municipalities.
Mr A LEES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 345
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Mr A LEES: Hon Chair, thank you very much to the Minister. If that property is being retained for increased traffic, is it being maintained at present? There is a narrow gauge line that goes from Port Shepstone through to Harding. It was a tremendous local economic activity called the Banana Express and, sadly, Transnet, in their wisdom, terminated the lease to the company running it. My concern is: Is that line and those facilities at Port Shepstone station being maintained at present?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, I'm not at liberty today to give a detailed report. If I may say that, at the meeting that we had with the premier last Friday, Transnet gave a report at that particular meeting about the infrastructure maintenance programme that they have with regard to all the facilities that are under their control. Therefore, the maintenance of the railway line that the hon member refers to also falls under that programme. We could provide the details, but I'm not in a position to do so right now. However, the report could be forwarded to members of this House. Thank you.
QUESTION 92 – THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 346
QUESTION 91 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES
Question 92:
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chair, with regard to the first part of the question, there has been a constant engagement with both business labour through the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, through industry associations and various workshops where discussions have taken place to implement the textiles and clothing customised sector programme as well as the leather and footwear customised sector programme. The textiles, clothing, leather and footwear business unit of the industrial development division of the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, works closely with the industry and the provincial governments economic development apartments to ensure that the work done at national level is taken through to the provinces in order to enhance the impact of this work these engagements have resulted in a degree of renowned confidence in the sector where the industry has embarked on a number of new investments in equipment and technologies over the last two years.
With regard to the second part, the department has instituted the clothing and textile competitiveness programmes of client to client protocol, CTCP, in order to improve the competitiveness of the textile and clothing sectors. The CTCP includes two main programmes which is the production sector and the clothing and textile's competitiveness improvement programme. The Clothing and Textile Competitiveness Improvement Programme, CTCIP, was launched in April 2009 whist the production sector came into effect in April 2010. These incentives were targeted at making local manufacturers more competitive thereby making it possible for them to capture an increasing share at the local market and also, to encourage local retailers to reduce imported merchandise in favour of buying from local manufacturers.
Some of the big retailers like Foschini, Truworths, Edcon and Woolworths are now participating in the CTIC programme where they are involved in value chain plasters with local Central Networks and Technologies, CNT, operations. This has led to some degree of reduction of imports in favour of acquisitions from local suppliers who are providing flexibility low stock holding quick fashion change and which is giving the local manufacturing a competitive offering.
The production incentive has, so far, supported projects to the value of R624 million which has benefitted 199 companies, this includes small and medium enterprises in the CNT sector, either as individual CNTs or as clusters. Small clothing factories are encouraged to participate in the programme either as individual companies or through cluster, working in collaboration with big established companies in order for them to have the established markets available to bigger organisations. There have been encouraging results where small CNT manufacturers, who are informal manufacturers, have become part of bargaining councils and have become bargaining council compliant in order to access incentives and thereby move from informal to formal manufacturers.
While the programme is aimed at reducing job loses in the sector, we have seen that, not only has this been achieved, but in some cases we have seen the creation of new decent jobs in the sector. Thank you.
Mr D D GAMEDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 346
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr D D GAMEDE: Chair, thank you, hon Minister, for the response. Firstly, maybe the hon Minister could provide a breakdown to the House of the companies that benefitted from this starting with the companies in KwaZulu-Natal. Secondly, small towns like Kranskop, with textiles like Mandini and Isithebe, how do they stand to benefit the small rural towns? What would be their first stop, should they need some assistance in revitalising this industry? Thanks.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I think I should probably say that we have seen the insentives that have applied to bargaining council compliant companies. There were a number of companies, as you well know, which were nonbargaining council compliant in KwaZulu-Natal, in particular, and what we did was we supported an idea that they should be given a period of time to become bargaining council compliant. Some did, many did not and they argued that they did not want to become bargaining council compliant. One of the biggest problems in the clothing and textile industry is that we have not seen sufficient investment in upgrading the competitiveness of the sector so the production incentive, in particular, has been the targeted at that.
What happens is that companies can earn credit based on their value added and they can redeem that credit against competitiveness raising measures. We have seen that only 199 companies, as I said earlier, have taken this up, but those companies not only preserved jobs, but they actually grew employment by a thousand, which is telling us that this is the way forward and we have seen an increasing degree of confidence in that sector. In fact when manufacturing was in a bit of a problem in the middle of this year, we saw a number of subsectors in serious trouble, yet clothing and textiles were not among the ones in trouble and we think that that is showing us a way forward. I will try to provide as much information as we can about the companies that have accessed the particular incentives concerned. Thank you.
Ms B P MABE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 346
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Ms B P MABE: chairperson, hon Minister, in view of the continuous threat of closure of our manufacturing textile industry, is there any agreement with the Chinese government to reduce their imports to South Africa; and, if that agreement is there, is it still in place?
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: let me say that I think that what we have noticed is a reduction in the number of closures and layoffs in the sector. We think that it's got to do with the programmes that I have been talking about just now. The quota agreement which we had with the People's Republic of China expired and we could not get agreement on renewing that, so we no longer have that agreement in place. What we have done, however, is we raised the duties from the then applied rate of 40% up to the bound rate maximum of 45% on clothing products; and at the same time we reduced the duties on textile products which we no longer manufacture in South Africa, so we have reduced the costs and I think we are also engaged in a fairly significant and partly successful campaign against illegal imports.
I think the problem that the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is talking about of multiple offending gangs and syndicates involved in various nefarious activities is apposite in this case as well, but we have had a number of crack downs and we are committed to continuing to act against illegal imports. We also think that this is providing a degree of greater stability in the economy in terms of a competition from abroad. Unfortunately we were not able to extent the quota agreement with the People's Republic of China.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 346
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, thank you Minister for the comprehensive answer. My question relates to the rates, particularly in KwaZulu-Natal, which has seen companies closing down, as to whether there is, as part of the policy, the intervention aspects that would mitigate the rates that affect those smaller companies operating in smaller towns. Is that negotiated also with the local government or municipalities within the given areas of operation of these companies? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I think what we tried to do is to ensure, as I said, through various means our clothing and textile unit in the industrial development division and try to work with provincial governments to make support measures available at local level as well. We are doing that. I should say that the issue on everybody's mind is that they were the noncompliant, nonbargaining compliant factories. We gave them a chance to become compliant, as I said, some did and some didn't, and some of those then closed down. I think that we have to face the fact that many of those factories told the workers that if you don't take a wage cut then we are going to go to Lesotho. Workers in Lesotho are told that if you don't take a wage cut we are going to go to Madagascar; and I am not quite sure where the workers in Madagascar are told the factory is going to relocate to. We do not believe that there is a future for us in the clothing and textile industry in a race for the bottom on labour costs which is not associated with addressing the issues of productivity. We are going the other direction. We are trying to raise productivity, raise investments, raise competitiveness and think that we have a track record now in the beginning of the process which is showing us that that is not the way to go. It has been an interesting wage negotiation, as you know, in the clothing and textile industry where low wage rates for new entrants have been agreed upon by the union against commitments by the manufacturers if they would increase employment. This is an interesting new experiment which we are watching very carefully, because we want to see at least job retention in the industry, but, as I said, we also see some scope if we get our programmes working more effectively. The evidence is telling us already we can, to a limited degree anyway, grow employment in this important sector.
Mr A LEES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 346
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr A LEES: Mr Chairman, through you to the hon Minister, thank you very much. Mr Minister, I am somewhat surprised to hear that there are companies who choose not to become compliant simply because they did not want to become compliant.
As you may know, my constituency is Newcastle and in Newcastle over the last year the CMT apparel industry has lost in the region of 10 000 jobs. I am faced, as an individual and as a Member of Parliament, with having to tell some of these 10 000 people what we can do for them in the future and I find it very difficult. My understanding is that the companies that have not become compliant is because of historical backpay contributions that are now being demanded which run into many millions of rand and those companies simply can't pay that money and I was wandering whether there is any effort being made by your department to accommodate that aspect of it.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chair, the matter of rights of workers and things like that does not directly fall under our department. As I said earlier, our department supported the idea that we should allow those companies to become bargaining council compliant and that we believe that that then opens the door to accessing a number of the incentives which can raise the competitiveness of our sector. I think that door is still open to companies in the Newcastle area among others. We would encourage small CNT operators to work in this direction rather than trying to hold on to the status quo which is basically low productivity, low levels of competitiveness, old and antiquated equipment and then demanding that the workers take the flack for that in the form of ultra low wages. We don't believe that's the way to go, but we are happy to work with any company, including those in the Newcastle area, that want to work with us in trying to become competitive in the other direction. Thank you.
QUESTION 93 – THE MINISTER OF ENERGY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 348
QUESTION 92 – THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Question 93:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chairperson, the reply to question 93 as asked by Comrade Gamede is as follows: The national oil company, the Petroleum, Oil and Gas Corporation of South Africa, PetroSA, has explored resources of energy internationally and has acquired exploitation rights both in Equatorial Guinea as well as in Namibia.
In Equatorial Guinea, PetroSA has secured exploration rights in Offshore Block Q of which one exploration well was drilled in 2010. Traces of oil were found, but in noncommercial quantities. Further evaluation of drilling opportunities is ongoing.
In Namibia, PetroSA has a 10% share in an exploration right in Offshore Block 1711 of which a well was drilled in 2008. Gas was recorded at several levels whilst drilling. However, the rock could not be penetrated further. The volumes discovered, although significant, were not sufficient to justify commercial exploitation.
Several onshore and offshore opportunities have been made available by the Venezuelan national oil company, Petróleos de VenezuelaS.A, PDVSA.
In relation to parts (a) and (b) of the question, the offshore gas fields were found to have noncommercial quantities of gas as well as exploration risk. The offer was declined by PetroSA.
The other three onshore oil field opportunities were offered to PetroSA and are still under review. The one block has shown proof of heavy oil, but it is not producing yet. PetroSA has reviewed the block, evaluated the inplace oil and had the volumes confirmed by a third-party engineering company.
Producible reserves have been evaluated and PetroSA is considering the option of buying an equity stake. One of the other fields is currently in production. However, PetroSA found the reserves not to be commercially viable as stand-alone fields, and as a result PDVSA offered more fields.
The third field also in production has been evaluated and commercially producible reserves have been confirmed. The Petroleum, Oil and Gas Corporation of South Africa is progressing towards signing up the opportunity. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr D D GAMEDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 348
The MINISTER OF ENERGY
Mr D D GAMEDE: Chair, I'd like to thanks the Minister for that detailed response. If the state continues, if everything goes well, and it's a success, are we going to have some reserves for the country so that we do not run short of oil in the next two to five years?
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chair, as we speak, the work that PetroSA is doing is meant to ensure that there is security of supply of petroleum products in South Africa, and that is why they really had to invest time and resources in going all over the world to ensure that they can have access to near-producing as well as producing reserves.
I want to reassure you that the work they have been doing is really meant to ensure that South Africa has reserves for the future. Thank you.
Mr D A WORTH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 348
The MINISTER OF ENERGY
Mr D A WORTH: Chair, through you to the Minister, have any agreements been struck or attempts been made to ensure that we get or purchase our oil from, for example, the vast gas resources that have supposedly been found off the Mozambican and Namibian coasts? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chairperson, in the first part of my response I indicated that PetroSA has done work in Namibia and has about a 10% share in an exploration right in Offshore Block 1711. You would know that PetroSA has also engaged with the Mozambican North Shore Operations, where they found that the wells to which they had access were not commercially viable. So they have been exploring other options with Mozambique. In this regard, only last week, PetroSA and the department were invited by the Minister of Petroleum and Mineral Resources in Mozambique to visit some of the wells that they, the Mozambicans, have been able to discover and which they believe they can work on together with South Africa. We have not, as yet, signed any agreement. Thank you very much.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 348
The MINISTER OF ENERGY
Afrikaans:
Mnr M J R de VILLIERS: Voorsitter, ek gaan my vraag in Afrikaans stel. Wat het dit die regering of u departement gekos om die ontginning van olie te stop by die gate waar daar nie genoegsame en volhoubare volumes olie gevind is nie?
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you must understand that, in terms of the rules, when you ask questions that require figures from Ministers, you have to request that information timeously so that Ministers come prepared. I keep hearing members wanting figures and so on. It is very difficult for Ministers to thumb-suck figures that they have not really obtained from their departments.
However, hon Minister, let us hear whether you have worked out those costs.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Thank you, Chairperson, for giving that type of indication because that is exactly how I was going to respond to the question. I don't have the figures and, if need be, we could entertain another question related to the figures in this regard.
Afrikaans:
Mnr M J R de VILLIERS: Voorsitter, ek verstaan baie duidelik wat u sê, maar kan ek, deur u, vir die Minister vra of ons die antwoord agterna kan kry? Anders moet ek 'n skriftelike vraag aan die Minister stel.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, that is fine. I think the Minister understands that language better than I do.
Afrikaans:
Die MINISTER VAN ENERGIE: Baie dankie Voorsitter. Ek wil net gesê het dat dit baie belangrik is dat 'n vraag wat syfers nodig altyd deur die nodige kanale moet gaan want, as ons dit wou beantwoord, op watter manier sou ons? Is dit in terme van net 'n antwoord gee op 'n vraag van 'n lid direk na die lid toe, of moet dit na die Huis toe kom? Baie dankie.
QUESTION 94 – THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 349
QUESTION 93 – THE MINISTER OF ENERGY
Question 94:
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, with regard to the first part of the question, the department is of the view that manufacturing is fundamental for economic development in developing countries and South Africa will not be an exception in this regard.
The department is also mindful of the fact that the South African economy is largely centralised in three metropolitan areas which collectively account for almost 70% of the gross national value added. This implies that there are few economic opportunities available for people in underdeveloped areas.
As a way of contributing to the creation of economic opportunities on a broader scale - including in underdeveloped regions and what are called deep rural areas - the department is currently developing a regional industrial development plan. Through this plan, the Department of Trade and Industry will seek to promote and support the development of a more regionally-diversified industrial economy, one that supports the inclusive growth development in decent employment, and which is built on the full potential of each region.
Currently, work is being done to determine the economic potential of various districts in the country. Once this is completed, industrial development plans will be developed and implemented for various districts, in partnership with the variety of stakeholders and partners.
With regard to the Umzinyathi district, the Department of Trade and Industry is collaborating with stakeholders to implement the following economic development initiatives: Firstly, the Msinga agricultural development project, which is currently focusing on vegetable farming and processing. The Department of Trade and Industry funded a project feasibility study, a business plan and project management for 12 month up to March 2012.
Plans for the establishment of a pack house and a processing facility are underway, and the national empowerment fund is currently considering a funding application of about R53 million. A total of 70 co-operatives are involved in this project with various co-operatives involved at different phases of the value chain. A total of 1 121 jobs will be projected once the project is fully implemented. The project is being implemented in conjunction with a number of partners, including the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, the Industrial Development Corporation, the National Empowerment Fund and Ithala Bank. A service provider has been appointed to conduct a feasibility study, business plan and project management for the proposed Umzinyathi meat processing facility.
The Department of Trade and Industry is also in discussion with three district Municipalities in the area; namely, Umzinyathi, Amajuba and Zululand, to support the development of the integrated regional economic development plan.
With regard to the second part of the question, as already indicated, the Department of Trade and Industry provides both financial and nonfinancial support for co-operatives. The current co-operatives incentive scheme provides grants of up to R350 000 per co-operative for qualifying projects, while other support facilities available include training, productivity and quality support, financial management and so on. Thank you.
Mr D D GAMEDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 349
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr D D GAMEDE: Thank you, hon Chairperson, firstly, thank you Minister because just last Friday your department was in my constituency training 80co-operatives, so thank you for that. The Minister would recall that we have just come from Umzinyathi and the project that he is mentioning at Msinga is one of the projects that we visited.
The question would be how the department follows up on these projects because we found out that most of them were very much alive on paper, but they are not really alive in practice. Is there a programme in place for doing an honest follow up and assessment?
Lastly, I would like to request the Minister to update me and this House with regard to the progress of those three districts Umzinyathi, Amajuba and Zululand - as time goes on because they do not have a corridor. So, the corridor that you have just mentioned will actually assist those rural districts. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you very much Chair, I think that the hon Gamede is quite right when he says that the challenge we are faced with making sure that projects that we agreed to or were involved in are followed through. That is fundamentally a change. From the level of the Ministry we, of course, want that to happen. If there are any lapses, I think it is important that constituency Members of Parliament engage with us and I will certainly give the assurance that, if there are lapses and people are not doing the work that they are supposed to be doing or there are unreasonable delays in decisions and the like, we will do our level best to try and ensure that those deficiencies are corrected. I think that is the way that we can work.
We also have a programme which is led by one of the Deputy Ministers, Deputy Minister Thabethe, which is taking the Department of Trade and Industry to the people. We have a Deputy Minister dedicated to actually engaging with communities in different parts of the country. I think that could also be another method we could follow to try and ensure that the challenge of turning good ideas into real complete projects actually materialises. Thank you.
QUESTION 95 – The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES:
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 350
QUESTION 94 – THE MINISTER OF ENERGY
Question 95:
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chair, thank you very much for the question.
The maritime industry falls under the Department of Transport, so I'm unable to answer this question. I humbly and kindly suggest that the question be redirected to the Ministry of Transport. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): Hon Nzimande, are you comfortable with the response?
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chair, it's fine, but my follow-up question was going to be in relation to the purpose of the maritime resource fund which I understand is administered by this department, but I accept the Minister's response. It's okay.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): So, in essence, there is no need for us to go back to the Minister. We agree with the manner in which she responded to the question.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, if I could just assist the hon member. The Department of Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries administers the Marine Living Resources Fund. So, I don't know if there is some confusion, but I'll go and investigate again. Thank you, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms N W Magadla): There is nothing that stops the hon member from reformulating the question and resubmitting it to the Minister with specific relevance.
QUESTION 96 – THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 350
QUESTION 95 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Question 96:
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, is currently finalising a youth enterprise development strategy – which we call Yeds – which identifies a number of interventions programmes which will be implemented by the youth directorate. Some of these interventions will be implemented in co-operation with Council of Trade and Industry agencies and some we have identified relevant stakeholders.
The Yeds draws on recommendations from the National Youth Policy and the current Integrated Youth Development Strategy of the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, which calls for departments to design policies and strategies for youth development in line with their respective mandates.
The DTI's Yeds identifies the NYDA as a key partner in most programmes due to synergies which are identified in the work of the two institutions, particularly on enterprise development.
In this regard the DTI has identified the areas of collaboration with the NYDA on programmes of the Yeds and has held a meeting with the NYDA on 11 November this year to discuss collaboration and partnerships. The DTI has also collaborated with the NYDA on a specific project, the Community Enterprise Development Officers Project, which, through the University of Pretoria, aims to train young people on deal origination and microfinance. The project will be launched by the end of November with training commencing immediately afterwards. The DTI has contributed financially towards this project and a project team of officials from both institutions is in place.
Lastly, the DTI is represented at the interdepartmental committee co-ordinated by the NYDA, a structure that is tasked with consolidating government efforts on youth development. This forum involves high-level discussions around policy and programmes to ensure that departmental policies and programmes are in line with government priorities and the National Youth Policy. Thank you.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 350
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chair, if the answer is that they are busy finalising the plans, can the Minister indicate at what stage of completion these plans are and when they will be implemented?
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Well, I don't want to give any precise indication at this point. I can just say that all of the work of the department recognises that youth unemployment is the biggest challenge that we face in South Africa. We have to structure all our programmes so that they give effect to having a youth-specific component. But I think that our programme, the Yeds, should be ready for discussion within the early part of next year.
Mr D D GAMEDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 350
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Mr D D GAMEDE: Chair, as I said, the issue is a follow-up with regards to Mzinyathi. Most of the young the people in Mzinyathi said that young people with disabilities are, in most cases, not taken care of. Now, do you, as the department in your interaction with the NYDA, actually stress and prioritise this issue of the involvement of young people with disabilities?
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chair, of course I think the point raised by the hon member is an important one. I would, however, like to say that, from our own experiences as the department, we have come to use the term "people with different abilities" instead of "people with disabilities".
At one stage, we had a project where we took a call centre and outsourced it to a community in Soweto. We found that people who were not physically able were much more stable in terms of an industry which is notorious for its instability and its high turnover of people. Those people were quite capable and had the skills to do that kind of work. In fact, they worked better than people who were physically able. So, I think it's an experience that has led us to believe that we need to look at the issue in a focused way. But, yes, it is indeed part of the overall programme, but it is within the broad focus of youth unemployment which is, as I said, the critical challenge that we face in this country.
QUESTION 97 – THE MINISTER OF ENERGY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 351
QUESTION 96 – THE MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Question 97:
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chairperson, the reply to question 97 is as follows: The encouragement of independent power producers, IPPs, involves two key initiatives which are the provision of firstly, a favourable regulatory framework; and secondly, incentives.
In so far as the first one is concerned, regulations have been introduced to provide for a process that addresses the procurement of power from IPPs. The regulations provide clarity around the implementation of the Integrated Resource Plan by outlining how the Minister of Energy triggers the IPP process through the section 34 determination of the Electricity Regulation Act, the role of the buying entity and the support that government provides to the buying entity.
In addition, the independent system and market operator institution won't be created to address the conflicted role of Eskom as both buyer and seller of power. Incentives are provided to renewable energy IPPs by allowing them to sell power from technologies that are outlined in the IRP at a price level that is higher than the marginal cost of generation from coal plants which is the lowest cost option for South Africa.
In relation to the second part of the question, the decommission power plant in Newcastle, Ingagane power station, is owned by Eskom. It can only become an IPP if Eskom decides to sell the power plant to a private sector investor who would then sell the power under the IPP programme. The disinvestment of Eskom from its asset is a decision that only Eskom and its shareholder, the Department of Public Enterprises, can make. Thank you.
Mr L P M NZIMANDe
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 351
The MINISTER OF ENERGY
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, in terms of the latter part of the answer, what is the position of the department? Are they waiting and are they satisfied and concurring with the decision of Eskom to decommission? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chairperson, hon Nzimande, in my response I indicated that the decision on whether Eskom should disinvest its assets is that of Eskom and its shareholder, the Department of Public Enterprises. I would believe that that part of the question should be placed before the House for the Minister of Public Enterprises. Thank you.
Mr A LEES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 351
The MINISTER OF ENERGY
Mr A LEES: Chairperson, with regard to the Ingagane Power Station which stopped producing power some years ago, is it not true that in fact there is no equipment left there to produce power and that all the generation equipment was indeed sold and exported to the United States of America?
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chairperson, the response to the question is the same as the previous one which is related to the question being forwarded to the Department Public Enterprises. Thank you.
Mr K A SINCLAIR
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 351
The MINISTER OF ENERGY
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, referring to the IPPs, we realised that there was a bit of a time delay when the department and the Cabinet were still investigating the whole issue about the refit, renewable energy feed-in tariff, model. Is the Minister satisfied now that the renewable energy bidding, rebid, that now in essence replaced the refit model would contribute to the IPPs being more involved and quicker in addressing and engaging the green economy?
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chairperson, I truly believe that the renewable energy IPP procurement process that has opened in August and closed on 4November for the first 3 725 megawatts, would truly advance the deployment of green energy into the grid. I therefore believe that it is a timeous intervention. But I just want to indicate to the hon Sinclair that the policy related to IPP as well as the instrument through which the government and its utility, Eskom, would deploy or utilise the IPPs is for the 30% introduction of power to be generated going forward by independent power producers.
As I have indicated in the first leg of the question, the independent systems and market operator, as an institution that will buy power, would be that instrument at the hands of government to make sure that we can actually facilitate a competitive bidding process for power purchase agreements between Eskom and its competitors which would be the IPPs.
I just want to indicate to you that we are committed and in due course we will be announcing the first leg of the renewable energy IPP procurement process. This would then further emphasise the commitment of government to making sure that there is space for participation by the private sector in the power generation section. Thank you.
Ms B P MABE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 351
The MINISTER OF ENERGY
Ms B P MABE: Chairperson, I want know from the Minister as to whether the department has begun the process of expanding with solar power and wind turbines. Are there any outside contributors or countries who are also playing a role in terms of assisting us in this matter? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENERGY: Chairperson, the recent procurement process that was advertised in August and closed now on 4 November, like I indicated, called for proposals and interest in the one megawatt to about 75 megawatts in the wind and different biomass-related technologies. However, the biggest input coming from this procurement will be in the wind and solar initiatives. Like I indicated, we called for 3 725 megawatts in this procurement process and the latest indicators are that we will get about 2 100 megawatts from the companies that have placed their bids. Unfortunately for the House, I cannot give you the total number of companies that would qualify for this first round of bids now because it would be jumping the gun and pre-empting the outcome of a bidding process.
In the next two to three 3 weeks we will announce, during the process of Cop 17, any indication of exactly the total number of megawatts. I just want to indicate that they range from one megawatt to about 75 megawatts in the wind technology, one megawatt to about 100 megawatts in the solar photovoltaic solar, PV, and about 50 megawatts in the concentrating solar power, CSP, process. In the second round we also believe that we are going to include those that can produce even at lower amounts. Thank you.
QUESTION 98 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 352
QUESTION 97 – THE MINISTER OF ENERGY
Question 98:
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chair, the hon member's question relates to the provision of the Constitution in relation to the measures taken by the state to ensure that every South African has access to adequate food.
As part of the measures to address food insecurity in South Africa, we have developed an integrated food security strategy as well as a zero hunger programme to support the food security policy for South Africa. The draft Food Security Policy and Zero Hunger Programme will be presented through the Cabinet process and parliamentary processes. The key pillar of the Zero Hunger Programme is to improve the food production capacity of households and poorly resourced farmers, and this will broadly be achieved through the provision of production input and access to cheap finance.
We will improve family farming as well as subsistence and smallholder farming. We will improve food access for the poor and vulnerable through social protection programmes. We are working with Minister Bathabile Dlamini with these programmes to include food and cash transfers.
We have nutrition security managed through the Nutrition Awareness Programme, and this focuses on breast feeding as well as strategies with or without food supplements; micronutrient interventions, which include fortification and supplementation; interventions for maternal nutrition; interventions for the prevention of malnutrition; and the development of market channels through the government bulk food purchase programme. The department is currently auditing current agricultural production interventions in order to finalise the approach by which a sustainable system can be developed.
It is, however, sad that we had to learn in a front-page newspaper article yesterday of the story of children who died of malnutrition or hunger. These are not isolated incidents. There are a number of villages where we have started the Zero Hunger Programme because children are either malnourished or they are underfed. There is a level of starvation in our country which we cannot deny.
Mr L P M NZIMANDE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 352
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Chairperson, I thank the hon Minister for the answer. As the Minister is working with Social Development, the follow-up question seeks clarity on whether they are using means testing. Would parts of the elements of this programme that she has shared with us not be more stringent, in an effort to limit access and confine these matters only to the current means testing system? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, we have the Social Development means testing as well as the National Planning Commission's instruments and a number of other instruments. The local government department also has a poverty index, and with the Department of Rural Development and Land Affairs, we have been using a comprehensive strategy on how to determine the areas which need intervention through sustainable food packages. However, we are not only going to give food packages, because this develops a syndrome of dependency.
The provision of starter packs has allowed people to start with family gardens, and fruit and vegetable gardens. In the Eastern Cape alone, we launched the Masibambisane Project last Saturday. Just in the Eastern Cape, we will start with 20 000 hectares which will be planted for this season. So, it is not specific to Social Development's means test.
Again, with food security, there are a number of departments working in an interministerial committee, including Social Services, Education and Health, to mention but a few. We are also working with the Department of Science and Technology on the research of fortified foods. There is a little tube of peanut butter which a child can suck, and the World Food Programme is also procuring this type of high-energy and high-nutrient food from us. Thank you.
Mr D V BLOEM
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 352
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister if, in her view, she does not think that poverty and hunger is the most serious security threat facing the country. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: I totally agree with the hon member. It is because we consider this to be such a serious threat that we have developed these strategies around smallholder farming.
The sad part about South African agriculture is the perception that white commercial farmers are solely responsible for food security in our country. Yes, they do contribute towards food security, but you cannot only rely on predominantly white, commercial farmers, because they farm for commercial value. They farm for a profit. The poorest of the poor, more often than not the very farm workers who work for them, are food insecure.
So, together with Rural Development and a host of other departments, we are addressing not only the problem of poverty or food insecurity, but also food price volatility. Food price volatility in our country has caused even the middle class to become food insecure. Luxury items - we consider luxury items to be items which a body can do without - have become less in demand in our country already.
However, our understanding of food security is not just the quantity that people eat, but also the quality which they eat. You can be eating pap every day and be full, but it may not have any nutritious value. So, fortified pap and bread have been identified, especially for the rural poor women - black rural women, who bear the burden and the brunt of poverty, and who have been singled out as people for intervention.We are also looking at the numbers of children, adults or youth who fall through the cracks, because some children are covered through early childhood care, others are covered ... but there is a category of vulnerable people who are not assisted with any food aid.
We will also expand FoodBank South Africa, which is currently run by the private sector. We are partnering the private sector to develop food strategies. If we do not intervene, our country really faces a huge risk when it comes to food security and high food prices. I am sure the hon members know that a trolley of groceries which used to cost R500 now costs R3 000 - and then you have not even put all your monthly groceries into that trolley. If we are complaining, you can imagine what the poorest of the poor are complaining about!
Ms B P MABE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 352
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Ms B P MABE: Chair, the Minister actually responded partly to one question that I wanted to pose in relation to food banks. Perhaps if she could provide ... I am more interested to know what the relationship of the department with regard to the food banks is, but she has already indicated that they are private entities working with government. We would like to have that kind of report, perhaps in writing, so that in our various provinces we would know where these food banks are and what the contribution is that government is making with regard to that.
In alleviating poverty, will the Minister be making necessary recommendations to the Minister of Finance about zero vatting on certain basic foodstuffs?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: I thank the hon member very much. I have spoken about FoodBank South Africa and our assistance with it. We are also working with Doctors without Borders. The funny thing is that when there is malnutrition and poverty in other countries on the continent, we focus on it, but we do not focus on the hunger, poverty and malnutrition in our own country. When it comes to the alleviation of poverty around food security, we have a draft policy which we are presenting to Cabinet, and once that policy is endorsed, we will be able to reply. Thank you.
Mr B A MNGUNI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 352
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr B A MNGUNI: Chair, there is a growing number of scientists in the light of pending climate change, and you have seen the growing starvation and problems in the Horn of Africa, in Somalia. Is the ministerial committee or are the scientists that the Minister has just referred to thinking in any way in the line of, perhaps, genetically modified organisms, GMOs, that can alleviate food security problems in Africa, as such?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Minister, you have the right to respond to it, but from where I am sitting, I think that is a totally new question. However, it is up to you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you, Chairperson. Very briefly, on climate change, South Africa is leading and spearheading a programme of climate-smart agriculture. We had a ministerial meeting with the G20 to lead the G20 on climate-smart agriculture. We also had an African ministerial meeting to co-ordinate and mobilise agriculture on the continent around climate-smart agriculture. Climate-smart agriculture talks about the triple win in agriculture, which is possible with mitigation, adaptation and food security through agriculture.
Yes, we have used GMOs. The Agricultural Research Station was tasked with producing a drought-resistant maize seed. I initiated this about a year-and-a-half ago. We assisted the Kenyan and Ethiopian governments with this seed. Our country gave them a huge amount of seed. These were GMOs. Members will also understand that certain countries have policies which do not allow GMOs.
We believe that GMOs could be used for food security, but when it comes to food sovereignty, many countries on the continent do not like GMOs. That, however, is a huge, new question. I could spend a whole day just discussing GMOs. Allow me just to say that we are working on GMOs, we are working on climate change and food security, and at COP17, we will have a high-level debate or discussion around climate change and food security. Thank you.
QUESTION 99 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 353
QUESTION 98 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Question 99:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, may I draw your attention to Rule 246 section 5 of the Rules of the House. Hon Feldman is not in the House and I have an option of declaring the question as having lapsed, depending on the level of interest that the Minister has in the question. If you feel like replying to the question you may, but you are not obliged to. It's up to you, hon Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, perhaps, to earn my day's salary and in the interest of other people who might have shared Mr Feldman's interest, I will. I am quite happy to share this short response to the question.
Chairperson, the first question has got two parts and I will first respond to 1(a). South Africa, as a manager of the Southern African Customs Union, Sacu, common revenue pool, paid over to member countries, namely Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia and Swaziland, a total amount of R22,9 billion for the financial year 2010-11. This amount includes the secretariat's budget of R53,87 million. In response to 1(b) of the question, South Africa received R25,35 billion of this from the Sacu common revenue pool for the financial year 2010-11.
With regard to the second part of the question, the revenue sharing formula is currently under review. The envisaged new formula will be negotiated in light of achieving a number of principles, among which are: improving trade facilitation through the elimination of trade barriers, enhancing promotion of interregional trade, decreasing the dependency of member states on customs duties, reducing volatility of the fiscal revenue for member states, as well as eliminating the barrier of assertion of new members.
The revenue generated through the consumption of fuel in the customs union forms part of the excise taxes and those taxes are collected in customs unions. They will remain part of the formula going forward. The aim of the new formula is to distribute customs and excise revenue equitably amongst member states taking into account the size of their respective economies. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In light of Mr Feldman not having nominated a proxy, I do not know who is going to volunteer to be his proxy to make a follow-up question.
Mr B L MASHILE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 353
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, I'm not necessarily a proxy, it's my own follow-up question in light of Mr Feldman's absence. I think, at the time when we were talking about the bailout of Swaziland, the income through Sacu was suggested as a fallback if Swaziland defaults. Now, what one wants to know from Treasury is: Is the kind of income that Swaziland receives through Sacu enough such that, if they default, we will be able to recoup the bailout. Thanks.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chair, the Sacu receipts for Swaziland were part of the agreement as part of the collateral upon which the pending advance or support was going to be awarded. Therefore, it would have depended on the availability and, also, the signing of the contract of the agreement, which has not been signed as yet. It was not necessarily a fallback, but it was part of the collateral.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In light of not having any follow-up questions, we would then get to the next question.
May I take the opportunity to welcome the delegation from Emalahleni Municipality, from the Eastern Cape, led by the hon Mayor Nyhukwana in the gallery. [Applause.] Thank you very much for the interest that you have shown in the life of the NCOP. This is your House, of course. You are very welcome.
QUESTION 100 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 354
QUESTION 99 – THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE
Question 100:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): The same rule then applies to question 100 of hon De Beer because he is not present in the House. Did he nominate anybody to act as his proxy? In the absence of that, I could have said it should lapse, but the onus is on the Minister to indicate any response if he or she wishes to respond.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: The department had a Summit on Vulnerable Workers in Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in which a vulnerable workers delivery forum was developed to spearhead the implementation of the resolutions of the Summit on Vulnerable Workers in Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. The department together with the vulnerable workers development forum are looking at working conditions of vulnerable workers, especially farm workers.
The Department of Labour is the convenor of this team and on 25 October this team worked to evaluate the dop system that is currently still being used on certain farms as the payment of farm workers. I think that whenever we raise this concern, there is a huge outcry from particularly white commercial farmers to deny that there is any form of atrocities happening on their farms. So, I think it is time to stop living in denial and that we start facing the problem of the conditions of farm workers and other vulnerable workers. Thank you.
Mr D V BLOEM
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 354
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I am rising because I must apologise to the Ministers who are here to respond to questions put by members of Cope who are not here. I must apologise to the Ministers because ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: That apology can be done at another time, but not here and not now.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): The order is sustained. I think it is an internal organisational disciplinary process.
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I will do it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Bloem, for the purpose of this exercise, may we proceed with the follow-up question. Any other internal organisational discipline is a matter separate from what is happening now.
Mr K A SINCLAIR
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 354
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau)
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, given that the hon Minister acknowledges in her response that there are still farmers that use this method which is unacceptable, I want to ask the Minister if she would be prepared to submit the list that the department has of farmers and business entities that still use this practice. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the interministerial committee of the Departments of Labour, Health and Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries are working on this related matter with NGOs. The NGO is Bossie, in particular as well asFawu from Cosatu to do a thorough analysis of what is happening on all our farms in all our provinces, subsequent to an international NGO presenting us with a report on atrocities still committed in the Western Cape.
The response of Agri South Africa, Agri SA, was to rubbish the proposal or the report. But if there is a problem, it is not critical to rubbish the research methodology. If there is the slightest evidence that there is abuse of farm workers or vulnerable workers at the work place, it is incumbenton government with the Human Rights Commission and other institutions to evaluate this. So, we have put up a team with labour inspectors who will now go from farm to farm to evaluate the situation for us. Thank you.
Mr D JOSEPH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 354
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Mr D JOSEPH: Chairperson, I just want to concur with the previous question. The last few months there have been numerous comments about this dop system which is unacceptable. The MEC of the Western Cape has called on numerous occasions on anyone to come forward with the names so that the provincial department can take the necessary action. I have heard this in this House before and in other areas but nobody so far is assisting the department, the Minister or the provincial Minister to come forward.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon member, are you asking a follow-up question or making a statement? I asked for a follow-up question.
Mr D JOSEPH: Chairperson, it is a question. I am asking if the national Minister can provide the names to the MEC of the Western Cape so that the necessary action can be taken against those farmers who are guilty.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon members, it is not a follow-up question. In any case, the Minister has already responded to the matter the member is raising because it was part of the other question.
Mr G G MOKGORO
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 354
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau)
Mr G G MOKGORO: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister if there is any law that prevents or out-laws this type of system. If it exists, does it prescribe how government or the police can deal with this matter in so far as those farmers who are still using this system are concerned? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I think that the question that you ruled out of order was also quite interesting. I don't know of provincial Ministers, I only know of MECs in provinces. I thought that one only have Ministers at the national government in our country.
To ask the government to come forward and to give these instances of abuse is very short sighted. We had a summit on vulnerable workers in which workers gave us numbers and numbers of instances of these ... [Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order: Chairperson, you have ruled that question out of order but the Minister answers that question to say that there are no provincial Ministers.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Member, she did not answer to anything.
Mr D V BLOEM: On a point of Order: She is also out of order because she has answered ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Bloem, will you take your chair.
Mr D V BLOEM: No, I am raising that point.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Bloem, will you take your chair? Hon Minister, can you just hold it for a moment. Hon Bloem, you are extremely out order. If there is a point of order that you want to raise, you have the right to do so but not a right to instruct me on how to handle the proceedings of the House. I did not hear any response and as a result there was no need for me to caution the Minister not to respond to that. Please, let us be in order and respect the decorum of the House. Hon Bloem, take your chair.
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, no.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Don't say no to me.
Mr D V BLOEM: Chair, on a point of order: You have ruled that the point is out of order, but the Minister responded to what the member has said.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Bloem, I am saying and I am putting it on record. I will not repeat it again. According to what I have heard from the Minister, I did not hear her responding to the comments made by the hon member and I have found no need to bring it to her attention to not respond. Are you satisfied with that ruling that I made?
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I am not satisfied.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): What are you going to do? Are you going to undermine me now?
Mr D V BLOEM: You must read the Hansard to see what the Minister said. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, thank you ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Bloem, I don't need the Hansard to listen to what you have just said. Does that remark mean that you undermine this House?
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, this member, hon Mashile is saying that you must chase me out of the House. I was responding to him.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, the Liquor Act, a number of other Acts as well as our labour regulations and laws prescribe how the matter of the dop system should be managed
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, when you finish that research of the department regarding this problem, will you provide us with the outcome and the report on it?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, certainly.
QUESTION 101 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 354
QUESTION 100 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Question 101:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In the absence of any, then, we are still faced with the same situation for question 101. Hon De Beer is not in the House; but we will allow the hon Minister to respond, if she wishes to.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, with your permission, the answer to that question is exactly the same as that which was put to me. Would you allow me not to repeat myself? We have answered this question earlier and through your indulgence, may I ask that the same response applies to this question as the questions are the same.
QUESTION 102 - The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 355
QUESTION 101 - The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES
Question 102:
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you very much, Chairperson. The statement made by the Deputy President in connection with the Walmart-Massmart merger refers to the positive investment climate in South Africa which prompted Walmart to consider investing in this country. The proceedings which are currently before the Competition Appeals Court in respect of this transaction relate to its potential impact on employment in South Africa.
In this regard government, and in particular the Minister of Economic Development, has a duty in terms of the Competition Act to make representation on public interest grounds as provided for in section 12A(3) of the Competition Act. The matter is currently sub judice and we are awaiting the judgement of the court. Thank you.
Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, given the remark of the Minister that the matter is sub judice, I don't think it would be proper to ask any other questions.
QUESTION 103 - The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 355
QUESTION 102 - The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Question 103:
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, there is no intention to introduce an import replacement policy, per se. The industrial policy action plan has introduced a series of horiontal and targeted measures to support South African manufacturing so that it is better able to compete on domestic and international markets. We have adopted a strategic approach to tariff protection to support industrial and employment objectives.
The policy framework proposes that tariffs on mature upstream input industries could be reduced or removed to lower the costs for downstream, more labour-creating manufacturing. Tariffs on downstream industries with employment or value-added potential could be retained or even raised to ensure sustainability of job creation. In raising tariffs we need to respect legally binding international trade obligations.
The procedures required for implementing changes to tariffs are set out in the International Trade and Administration Act and are administered by the International Trade Administration Commission. An evidence-based case-by-case assessment informs changes to tariffs. Protection for food security reasons are implemented in various measures by the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries. Thank you.
QUESTION 104 - The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 355
QUESTION 103 - The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY
Question 104:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks to the hon Groenewald for the question. Yes, indeed, we are facing quite a serious bitumen shortage. Bitumen is a by-product of the oil refining process and obviously is used primarily in road maintenance and road construction. We are facing severe short-term pressure in terms of a bitumen shortage, but it is overlaid by a continuing medium and longer-term challenge as well in terms of bitumen.
In regarding to 1(a), yes, we have undertaken, as the Department of Transport, various steps to address both the short-term, but also the medium and longer-term implications of this shortage. In particular, the Department of Transport and the SA National Road Agency, Sanral, have been working closely with the Department of Energy to highlight these problems and to seek to find solutions.
The one solution has been to encourage the importation, as a short-term gap measure, of bitumen from overseas and according to information before me the first shipload was due to arrive on 18 November. I'm not sure if it did come, but I assume it did arrive.
In regard to the second part of the question, Sanral has a growing list of construction projects - some 35 countrywide - that are being affected to varying degrees by the shortage of bitumen. In some cases project contractors could only work for three days a week in the course of October this year, And on other projects, no bitumen-related work was possible at all during the month of October.
In regard to the third part of the question, the hon member will appreciate that the Department of Transport is not responsible for granting export permits. However, we are actively engaging the Department of Energy, because that is the department that regulates oil importation and the refining process and so forth.
One of the challenges we appear to have in our discussions with the Department of Energy is that the Act that enables the Department of Energy to regulate, or to set particular targets, for instance, in terms of bitumen production out of the refining process or to prevent exports is that the current Act – the Petroleum Products Amendment Act of 2003 - appears not to give the Minister power to regulate bitumen. It regulates power around petroleum fuel or any other product that could play the role of petroleum fuel. Bitumen is not quite something that you could put into a car. So, there is a challenge there and it might be something that we should look at as we proceed forward. So, thank you very much for the question, and indeed, we are looking at this and it is a big challenge.
Mr H B GROENEWALD: Thank you, hon Chairperson, no follow-up questions.
Mr M J R DE VILLIERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 355
Mr P J GROENEWALD
Mr M J R De VILLIERS: Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, what influence does this shortage of bitumen have, especially on the cost while those contracts are currently in operation?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thanks for the question. Indeed, it does have an impact on costs. First of all, the general, prevailing shortage, both in the medium and longer term as well as the short-term crisis that we have got, obviously, increases the price of bitumen and when we import it, it also has cost implications. Apart from that, delays to work obviously also extend costs and impact generally on the whole supply chain process and the cost of labour, for instance.
It is a serious challenge and I should say that, apart from what I have mentioned around our engagements between Sanral, the Department of Transport and the Department of Energy, it is also a matter that we will refer to the new Presidential Infrastructure Co-Ordinating Commission because we have identified infrastructure and amongst infrastructure the maintenance, not just the building, but the maintenance of our road network as a critical infrastructure project. This is a critical input into that and therefore it is something we're taking extremely seriously as a government.
Mr A LEES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 355
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
Mr A LEES: Mr Chairperson, through you to the Mr Minister, I wonder whether you are aware that the new refinery proposed by PetroSA in the Coega development zone is not planned, as we were told, to produce any bitumen, and whether you can intervene to ensure that that new development is indeed designed to produce bitumen.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Yes, one is aware that the planning did not include bitumen as a by-product from the refining process. As I said it is something we are looking at. Currently, the bitumen that we produce within the country comes from the four major refineries that we have got in our country, namely Chevron here in Cape Town, Enref and Sapref in Durban, and Natref in Sasolburg.
We need to have a comprehensive approach to Bitumen security in our country and therefore the discussion around the proposed refinery at Ngqura is part and parcel of a comprehensive approach that we need to adopt towards ensuring bitumen security in our country.
QUESTION 105 - The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 356
QUESTION 104 - The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT
Question 105:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: House Chairperson, in responding to this question, I thought I must just give the following background. The Department of Public Enterprises, through its state-owned entity Transnet, is actually responsible for the country's freight logistics. Transnet, through its operating division Transnet National Ports Authority, is the custodian of the country's primary trading hubs, managing conduits – that is the ports – of the country's imports and exports, as well as the Transnet Freight Rail, TFR. As the custodian of the country's transportation of freight, containers and mainland passengers on rail, it maintains an extensive rail network across South Africa that connects with other rail networks in the sub-Saharan region. I thought I must just do that.
In responding to the first question by hon Lees, in 2010, the TFR delivered 63,4 million tonnes to Richards Bay Coal Terminal, RBCT, which is 27,6 million tonnes below the RBCT capacity of 91 million tonnes per year. TFR aims at increasing its coal line capacity to 81 million tonnes by 2015. That is if long-term contracts are signed with coal exporters. Currently, negotiations are under way to finalise contracts with coal exporters. I am sure further details will be held by the Department of Public Enterprises.
On questions two and three, I will answer as follows: the Department of Public Enterprises has the mandate, as I said, to manage the country's freight logistics chain. The responsibility of increasing the rail capacity lies within the ambit of the Department of Public Enterprises. From our side, through the Mining Industry Growth, Development and Employment Task Team, MIGDETT, the key stakeholders in South Africa or in the South African mining industry have worked on an intensive collaborative problem solving manner to develop a sector growth strategy for the country's mining industry. The MIGDETT stakeholders have identified shortages in infrastructure, such as rail, ports, water and electricity supply as one of the key binding constraints that has material impact on the ability of the mining industry to grow competitively. That is both current and prospective production.
An integrative long-term planning mechanism for infrastructure in the mining industry is under development under the auspices of MIGDETT, and a comprehensive review of the key infrastructural requirements of the mining sector in the short, medium and long term will be undertaken. Lastly, the strategy proposes that the key results, as specific needs, be factored into the government's infrastructure programme process, as it is unfolding. Thank you very much, Chair.
Mr A LEES
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 356
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr A LEES: Chairperson, through you to the Deputy Minister, thank you for your answer. I do appreciate the responsibility that lies with Transnet and the Department of Public Enterprises. However, my question – and I don't think you did answer it, so forgive me if I missed it – was whether the full capacity of coal exports is indeed being handled? In other words, if the capacityto transport and export was greater and, let's say, unlimited, would we be able to export more coal than we are currently doing? If so, what would the quantum be?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson and hon member, in my initial answer, I said the capacity for the Richards Bay Coal Terminal is 91 million tonnes per annum. As things stand now, like I said, what we gave in 2010 as a figure was that only 63,4 million tonnes were delivered to the terminal, so the capacity was not exhausted, as it is now. Thank you.
Mr D A WORTH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 356
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
Mr D A WORTH: Chair, through you to the Deputy Minister, there was talk a little while ago, and I saw that there is a possibility of coal being exported through Maputo to the harbour there. Has any developments taken place with regard to that?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): There is a point of order. Hon Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, I think I must do it, and I am sorry to Mr Worth. The Deputy Minister has said logistics are not part of his department. Now he has to answer for the Department of Public Enterprises. Can we consider that and not ask questions that are not for the Ministers who respond here?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Chairperson, I think that question must be directed to the Department of Public Enterprises at the appropriate time. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau)
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
Tuesday, 22 November 2011 Take: 356
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): can see that there aren't any other follow-up questions. Hon members, I would have to be guided by the office of the Chief Whip, because according to the information I have, the Council was scheduled until 12:30, and we are already at 12:40, with a list of questions still outstanding and to be responded to. Chief Whip, can you therefore guide us on how to proceed, whether we should proceed until 13:00, and if, by that time, we have not exhausted all the questions, whether the questions will then be deferred to the next cluster questions session? What would therefore be the procedure?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chair, there are two ways: we either ask Ministers and Deputy Ministers to respond in written form, or we carry over to the next year, because there is no more question sessions. So, I propose that we ask the hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers to really answer those questions in written form.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Hon Van Lingen?
Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson, if we are really running out of time, considering the amount of time allocated to a particular question and the fact that the hon Ministers did attend the meeting today – our plenary – and that they have prepared a certain section of our questions already, can we request, in agreement with the Chief Whip, that we get the responses in writing, please?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): So, that seconds the suggestion, as proposed by the Chief Whip.
Mr D V BLOEM: Yes, yes.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): No, no. There might be someone who differs, and I must afford that person the opportunity. Is there anybody who has a different view? Cope? Hon Bloem?
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, we fully support that proposal that you must give us the answers in writing. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): Order, hon members! I don't want us to be accused of other things tomorrow. ID?
Mr J J GUNDA: We support it, Chairperson.
Afrikaans:
Die HUISVOORSITTER (Mnr R J Tau): Die DA? Is die DA nie hier nie? Die ANC? [The DA? Is the DA not here? The ANC?]
English:
No, the Chief Whip moved for the proposal as the Chief Whip of the NCOP, but I want ... Fine, there is confirmation by the ANC. Is there another Cope? [Interjections.]
Mr K A SINCLAIR: No, Chair, there is only one Cope, but I just want to ask – the hon Gunda responded now, but I thought he was swallowed by the DA, so I don't know? [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): IFP?
Prince M M M ZULU: IFP iyavuma. [IFP supports.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr R J Tau): In the light of all parties having agreed that we don't defer, that all other outstanding questions therefore be responded to in writing, Chief Whip, and all parties therefore having agreed to that, that then brings us to the end of business. Therefore, the Council is adjourned.
The Council adjourned at 12:40.
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents