Hansard: Questions to the President, Jacob Zuma
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 09 Nov 2011
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 180
START OF DAY
THURSDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2011
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
________
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
Question 13:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon members, we took a conscious decision to establish a Performance Monitoring and Evaluation Department in the Presidency. We further decided to go beyond receiving reports from departments and to undertake hands-on visits to assess the delivery on our five priorities and other programmes of government.
To date, we have undertaken four formal monitoring visits, focusing on government's five priorities; twice to the Eastern Cape and to Limpopo and the Free State province.
We visited Mdantsane Township and Peddie in the Eastern Cape to assess the state of education. We were convinced that national government's decision to work with the province directly, in order to turn the situation around, was the correct one. We are now working closely together to revitalise education in that province.
The second Eastern Cape visit focused on boosting job creation in the automotive sector in Port Elizabeth, assessing service delivery and revitalising Mthatha in the King Sabata Dalindyebo, KSD, Municipality. The KSD Municipality is a Special Presidential Project. In this regard, we will continue to work closely with the province to improve the quality of life there.
Last month, we visited Qwaqwa in the Free State province to assess rural development. We were impressed with some of the good work that has already been done, although residents also indicated various areas of improvement.
In July we visited the Vhembe district in Limpopo for health care assessment, and undertook to improve service through the building of a new hospital. In Lebowakgomo, also in Limpopo, we were impressed to see a model hospital which can serve as a standard for most government hospitals.
We have also sent teams of officials from the Performance Monitoring and Evaluation Department to check on service delivery frustrations and solutions in Umzimkhulu in KwaZulu-Natal, Burgersdal in Gauteng, Balfour in Mpumalanga and other areas. Principally, the issues which have been raised by residents in most areas include water, electricity, housing, health, schools, clinics, policing, unemployment and other infrastructure.
The major challenges include poor co-ordination between spheres of government, frustrations with the long and complex processes of obtaining assistance from government, as well as a lack of resources.
The launch of the Presidential Infrastructure Co-Ordinating Commission on 8 September 2011, is meant partly to help us deal with these infrastructure challenges. We are satisfied that enough is being done to build a better life in the areas visited. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Nksz B N DAMBUZA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 180
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiXhosa:
Nksz B N DAMBUZA: Ndiyabulela Somlomo. Mongameli ohloniphekileyo, ndiyabulela ngempendulo nengcaciso ethe gabalala.
English:
In the light of the fact that any government prides itself on the quality of its service, as quality and attitude are its major service differentials, another element is to further ensure that it keeps up with the constantly changing environment within which it operates through regular interaction with both parties and citizens.
IsiXhosa:
Sithi ke singamalungu ale Ndlu ehloniphekileyo, ingakumbi awe-ANC, siyabubulela ubunkokheli bakho nesigqeba sakho nokuqinisekisa ukuba...
English:
... in order for the government to stay afloat and sustainable it must maintain close monitoring and ensure that quality services are delivered to its citizens. However, the intergovernmental co-ordination inefficiencies and resources seem to be a challenge.
Therefore, knowing that the critical success factor in any development is collaboration, what measures would you undertake to strengthen or foster compliance to that effect and ensure that the delivery ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Ms B N DAMBUZA: ... agreements that are signed are sustained.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Ms B N DAMBUZA: Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, we are certainly doing everything we can to ensure that we strengthen co-ordination between the spheres of government, and to also check how departments are working to ensure that delivery is done timeously. So, we are doing everything we can to ensure that government operates optimally.
Mr B H HOLOMISA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 180
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Mr Speaker, hon President, we take note of the President's recent visit to the Eastern Cape. We thank you for your prompt response to our calls, sir, when we requested your office to prioritise the eastern part of the Eastern Cape's collapsing infrastructure.
Given the high rate of accidents on the road between East London and Mthatha, and Mthatha and Kokstad, would it not be possible for the government to come up with strategies to ease the congestion on the N2 by incorporating these areas into Transnet's current project of upgrading the country's railway system? If such a plan were to be approved, it would save the government money on maintenance costs of the road in question.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, yes, that problem is known to government and there are plans, firstly, to address the issue of the road, the Garden Route, and those plans are in place to deal with the problems in the Eastern Cape. These plans will not only to deal with congestion, but will also assist with economic development in order to open up the Eastern Cape as part of changing the economic landscape of the Eastern Cape.
In the pipeline there are also discussions about the railway line, which will also add to the opening up of the Eastern Cape route, particularly between Durban and Cape Town and, of course, Port Elizabeth, East London and other cities in between. We believe this plan will certainly address the concern that the hon member has raised. [Applause.]
Mr P F SMITH
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 180
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr P F SMITH: Speaker, Mr President, thank you very much. We applaud your ad hoc visits to these areas; we think it is a very good thing and you should keep it up. I'm very pleased to hear that you are fully aware that the lack of co-ordination between the different spheres is partially, if not, in many instances, largely responsible for service delivery failures.
In your response you indicate that you have an Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission that is doing some good work and you also mentioned stronger oversight over the line function departments. However, I wonder whether or not that is actually sufficient and whether government should not be doing more to ensure co-ordination on the ground.
Secondly, Mr President, can you give us an indication of specific examples of where this closer co-ordination is actually working. Could you give us real concrete examples of where interventions of that nature have led to improved service delivery? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am happy that the hon member appreciates that work is being done. As I've said lack of co-ordination at times is a problem and we are attending to it. I think there are many examples that have demonstrated this, in terms of ensuring that co-ordination works.
In a number of areas that we have gone to, the areas I have mentioned, for example, the Eastern Cape, we have done a number of things. One of the critical points that we have been dealing with in the Eastern Cape is education and we now have a joint committee that has been put in place to address that problem and it is working very well. That is one area that we can identify. There are many other areas where our working together is showing success.
In your question you also asked what else can be done. Besides what we are doing, we have discussed these matters in the meetings that we hold regularly with Premiers and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, where we discuss co-ordination in a number of areas.
As the hon member is keenly observing these matters, if he has some proposals to make, I will certainly be ready to receive them.
Mr J R B LORIMER
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 180
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr J R B LORIMER: Mr President, amid growing evidence that officials deployed by central government to fix ailing municipalities are not succeeding, and following a report that four officials sent to lead collapsed municipalities in the North West have only succeeded in making things worse, would you not agree that the local government turnaround strategy is not succeeding in improving delivery and that part of the reason for that is that the wrong people are being sent to sort out the mess?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you hon Speaker,... Interjections.] They are making me laugh. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: I won't deduct that from your time, hon President, but continue.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, the turnaround strategy was investigated and it certainly remains the answer. The question may be how it is being implemented. I think there have been some delays in implementing it, but we still believe it is the answer.
Just yesterday I had a discussion with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs on that particular issue to ensure that we are dealing with that matter. Of course, as you would know, there was a period when the Minister who was there to implement that turnaround strategy was not necessarily in operation. We now have a Minister and that's why we had the discussion yesterday, focusing specifically on the turnaround strategy. It is now going to be implemented with more vigour.
With regard to the issue of whether or not the wrong people are being sent, unfortunately the hon member was not giving specific municipalities. The statement he is making is very general. That the officials have gone to areas and some of them have not succeeded, is a rather generalised question and it is not very specific. I wouldn't know the individuals whom he is talking about. If he was saying so-and-so was sent here and this is what happened, I would be in a better position to answer the question.
QUESTION 14: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 181
QUESTION 13: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 14:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker and hon members, I do not at present intend to appoint a judicial commission of inquiry into alleged illegal interception of communications by state agencies. Our current legislation, in particular the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-related Information Act and the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, provide adequate safeguards regarding any alleged illegal interception of communications.
The laws provide adequately for effectively dealing with complaints of the abuse of power regarding illegal interception of communications. In addition, any person who is aggrieved by the decision of the designated judge to issue a direction may approach the courts for an appropriate remedy.
As such, any individual alleging any illegal activities must exhaust the remedies provided for in our legislation.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 181
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, the DA is disappointed that the President has declined to establish an independent commission of inquiry into phone hacking. We are also surprised, because we have been reliably informed that the Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Development has already begun work on the terms of reference for such a commission.
In 2008, the DA leader, Helen Zille, met with then Intelligence Minister Ronnie Kasrils after it became clear to her that her phone had been illegally tapped. Mr Kasrils memorably told her that although there had been no formal instruction to intercept her communications, he could not guarantee that it was not taking place informally.
It turned out that the informal interceptions were not the work of rogue private investigators. In fact, a police officer overcome by her conscience, contacted her to say that an intelligence nerve centre in Bishop Lavis was the place where tapes of her telephone conversations were being analysed and gave her details of these conversations to prove it.
In addition, a Mail & Guardian exposé has shown that illegal phone hacking is being carried out by state security agencies, and it confirms what we have suspected for some time: Government agents are abusing their power to spy on individuals without permission from a judge, as required by law.
Mr Speaker, will the President tell us what happened to the plans to establish a commission of inquiry? Has it been shelved? If so, what are the reasons? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I am equally disappointed that the opposition has not exhausted all legal routes. [Applause.] The hon member is telling me the history of what happened when there was once a Minister named Ronnie Kasrils. He is no longer here. [Interjections.] He discussed some matters with the Leader of the Opposition, but I was not there.
The allegation or request that is being made is that we should establish a commission of inquiry, and I am saying that there are legal routes to be undertaken. Exhaust them and then, if you say that you have exhausted all the legal avenues and ask for a commission, I will understand.
Mr M WATERS: You said we mustn't go to court!
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon member. [Applause.]
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 181
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M G ORIANI-AMBROSINI: Speaker and, indeed, Mr President, you are here now. Against that background, as you referred to adequate safeguards, one of the safeguards in the law and the Constitution is the power of this august body to exercise oversight. I say this in terms of the fact that I have asked the Minister of State Security the question as to whether or not the telephones, computers and other means of communication of any of the members of this House are being intercepted.
I was not allowed to ask the question by the parliamentary officers. After one year of struggle, that question has not yet been put to your Minister.
You are the President, and the entire executive authority is vested in you, so I would like to ask you today whether it is an acceptable policy for your government to intercept the communication of any of the members of the House and whether you can give a guarantee to all of us that none of our computers, none of our telephones and none of our communications are the subject of interference, interception or surveillance to determine what we do, what we think and how we conduct our politics? Thank you, Mr President. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I certainly will guarantee that the telephone, cell phone, computer, iPad, or whatever, of any member of this House should not be interfered with. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No, it is not. That is what I am saying. It must not be interfered with. In absolutely no way should we allow that as a country. If the security agencies have information about anyone, irrespective of the position, and that there is something wrong, they apply to a designated judge. That is the only route, and no other route can be allowed.
Now, once the judge is satisfied that there is something wrong with a citizen, irrespective of whether he is a Member of Parliament or whatever, then the judge grants the permission. That is the only route. I will never allow anyone to just decide to intercept anyone. That is, in fact, infringing the law. [Applause.]
Mr P D DEXTER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 181
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr P D DEXTER: Thank you, Mr President. I am not one of the more paranoid members of the House, so I am not going to ask about my own communications. I think, Mr President, the issue is not really only about whether the government is doing this, because I take you at your word. I believe there is a policy and there is a procedure, but there is a problem with private people, both through connections in the state – people acting illegally – and then also using their own technology and resources.
To my mind, the issue is not simply a question of saying that the government is to blame. I think there is a broader issue about the environment in which we live. The lighter side of it is that members of your own Cabinet believe that there are honey traps being set for them. [Laughter.]
Political leaders claim that they are being investigated, even suspended ones, now. [Laughter.] There is a lighter side to this, but I think underneath it is a very serious issue about what the capacity is that exists in our country for this kind of monitoring. Does the government have a handle on it? I take you at your word, but I think that it would do the citizens a great deal of good and provide comfort to some of your colleagues for them to know that, in fact, they are in good hands, Mr President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, of course, the question was about what is alleged, that being that state agencies are intercepting communications. That is what I was answering. The issue of the private companies is the matter which I think the hon member was referring to.
The only thing is that he was putting it in the wrong place. That is the matter that the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development is looking at and, once he concludes that, we will then deal with the matter, since they are not allowed to do so.
You might have to look at the remedies, once the matter is concluded. How do we stop either individuals or private companies from doing so? Citizens must be protected. [Applause.]
Mr C V BURGESS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 181
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr C V BURGESS: Speaker and Mr President, I like the way in which you educate those who are not familiar with the processes. [Interjections.] It is very difficult when you don't know the processes and become paranoid because of these interception perceptions. [Interjections.]
Hon President, you are correct when you condemn unlawful interception of communications. That is correct; you made it clear that you condemn that. Hon President, as you are also well aware and as you have indicated, the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-related Information Act, and particularly section 49, provides that a person who intentionally and unlawfully intercepts communications is guilty of an offence.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Why are you doing it, then?
Mr C V BURGESS: Section 51 of that same Act says ...
Mr S B FARROW: We also agree with the Act!
Mr C V BURGESS: ... that if you are found guilty, you are subject to a fine of R2 million or a period of imprisonment not exceeding 10 years. Does the hon President have knowledge of any widespread abuse regarding unlawful interceptions? [Interjections.]
Does the hon President consider the penalties in the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-related Information Act to be adequate as a method of deterrence? [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, of course, I don't have any knowledge of such activities. As I said, the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development is looking at the matter of the private interceptors who have come before him. I don't have the details of it.
Certainly, I think that we took the decision very wisely on the punishment that you have just read for those who infringe the law. Such people, if they commit a crime, must be punished, so I agree with what is stipulated in the law. [Applause.]
QUESTION 15
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 182
QUESTION 14
Question 15:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon members, South Africa was active in the support and drafting of the AU roadmap for the resolution of the Libyan crisis and the subsequent proposals to the Libyan parties for a framework agreement on a political solution to the crisis in Libya.
We have also been actively engaged with both the erstwhile Libyan government and the National Transitional Councilin finding a peaceful resolution to the crisis. We believe the AU roadmap still provides the best way forward toward peace and normality in Libya.
The elements of the roadmap include the immediate cessation of hostilities, facilitation of the delivery of humanitarian assistance, the protection of foreign and African migrant workers, the establishment and management of an inclusive transitional period and the adoption and implementation of political reforms to meet the aspirations of the Libyan people for democracy, justice, peace and security. These elements are in line with the AU Postconflict Reconstruction and Development Policy.
At the 297th meeting of the AU Peace and Security Council, PSC, the AU reiterated its deep concern with regard to the proliferation of weapons and their impact on regional security and stability. In this regard, it was proposed that a regional conference be convened to facilitate regional co-ordination and co-operation.
The PSC also urged the Libyan authorities to ensure the safety and security of African migrant workers and to hold a pledging conference to mobilise resources for the socioeconomic reintegration of migrant workers into their countries of origin. The PSC also authorised the chairperson of the commission to establish an AU liaison office in Tripoli, to be headed by a special representative.
This office will work with the United Nations, the League of Arab States and other stakeholders to stabilise Libya, promote national reconciliation and inclusivity as well as to facilitate the transitional process towards democratic institutions.
South Africa has its own unique contribution to make. Our experience in reconciliation, as well as the integration of the armed forces following the transition to its democratic dispensation, could be relevant in the current postconflict phase in Libya.
In addition, the governance configuration in the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya did not foster a culture of democracy and respect for human rights and the rule of law. Greater effort will be need to support the establishment of the requisite democratic institutions, legal frameworks and reconciliatory mechanisms.
South Africa stands ready to assist in any way possible so that Libya can return to normalcy. I thank you.
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 182
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Hon Speaker, let me thank the President for the elaborate answer to our question. President, how is the AU and South Africa, in particular, hoping to support the National Transitional Council, NTC, in helping Libya in the democratic process, in general and inclusive government, in particular, going forward?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the AU and South Africa which is part of the AU, have been working very hard on the Libyan question. We have had a lot of meetings as well as work done as the ad hoc committee, which consists of five heads of states who headed the activities with regard to Libya. We also looked at the AU's own policies and positions. For example, given the history of the continent, any country's regime that brought about change through military means will not be recognised by the AU.
In discussing the question of the Libyan problem, given the fact that Libya, historically, in the last 41 or 42 years did not have these constitutional institutions and no constitution at all, except what read here, we felt, as the AU, that we should be flexible.
We should be flexible so that those people in Libya who asked for change and therefore later became the NTC and now are the one's who are establishing inclusive government, will be allowed by the AU to occupy the seat of Libya in the AU so that they participate in the processes of reconstruction in Libya.
That is what the AU has done. In other words, the AU has a very clear position about how to deal with countries that come into authority through military means. However, in this case, because of the unique situation of Libya, the AU decided, as one of the steps to help, that Libya should be part of us and work with us to ensure that we move forward.
We are even more concerned now because the way in which the Libyan situation has been dealt with, has created a situation in Libya that not only affects the citizens of that country, but the entire region. Many countries like Mali, Chad, Niger or Mauritania are affected.
Many people have been walking into these countries well-armed. So we are talking about the Libyan situation that has undermined the regional security. That is a big concern for the AU. We will therefore do everything we can to ensure that we work with the Libyans to solve their problems as quickly as possible and help them to establish proper democratic institutions so that there can be a legitimate government in Libya. [Applause.]
Mr K S MUBU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 182
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr K S MUBU: Speaker, Mr President, there were media reports that South African mercenaries had tried to extract late Muammar Gaddafi from Libya. How do you think this country can win the confidence of the National Transitional Council as an honest contributor to reconciliation in that country?
Secondly, it is also understood that there are considerable Libyan assets in this country that had been frozenby this government. Will this government now unfreeze these assets as a contribution to the reconstruction of Libya? Is the President in a position to tell us how much these assets are worth, the value of these assets?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the hon member says there were allegations or rumours with regard to mercenaries. I am not sure whether I should give a rumoured answer on the rumours. [Laughter.] You are asking me to comment on rumours. I am not sure whether that will be helpful. If there are rumours or untested allegations then they remains rumours. Therefore I will certainly treat them as rumours.
With regard to issues of Libya's assets, certainly this country followed the decision of the United Nations when that decision was taken. I don't know what the value of the assets is. Certainly, once the UN takes the decision that they must be released, then I am sure this country will follow what the UN says. That will be our position.
Mr M B SKOSANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 182
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M B SKOSANA: Speaker, Mr President, you are a politician and you know that it is often not easy for a politician to say that you have answered me. So I'm going to check. Colonel Gaddafi and a few of his countrymen shared the dream of Pan-Africanism. It is now clear from the latest events in Libya that the political and economic ties or loyalties will certainly lie with the countries of the north, particularly those whose forces are serving in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, Nato, and to an extent in the Warsaw Pact.
What specific African virtues and ties bind South Africa and the AU to the nascent regime in Libya? You may have answered that, but I am checking.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon member, you want to give a politician's answer. I want to start where you started, which is that Gaddafi had a dream of Pan-Africanism. As you know, Gaddafi's regime came into power during the days of coups on the continent. There were no rules like the rules we have today, so people would come in and declare their policies, like Gaddafi did. As much as he dreamed of Pan-Africanism, the fact of the matter remains, as I have just described here, it was something that was just Libya, Jamahiriya, not Pan-Africanism or anything.
As you know, he came in through the coups, he replaced a king through a coup d'état but he called it a revolution and he continued to say that there was a revolution in Libya.
Certainly, over the period when he was part of the AU, he said whatever everybody did about standing for Pan-Africanism. I don't think we perused the details of each country or how it was dealing with its policies. As you have heard when I was reading, it was as a socialist kind of thing. You know that at one time it was African socialism - heads of states have said things in the past.
As far as that is concerned, I don't know if I can give certainty as to what type of Pan-Africanism Gadaffi stood for, as many others espouse this kind of policy. These are the debates that have gone on for decades in an attempt to clarify what we mean by this.
Coming back to your question of the Nato countries, I think Africa is faced with a serious problem as was reflected in Libya where, whilst we are on this continent, countries outside of this continent moved in and continuously bombarded a country formonths on end and theydid not even listen to the continental organisation when it was saying, "Here is a roadmap". That, I think, poses a challenge. Everybody is clear that the approach between us and those across the Mediterranean is not the same.
I think in the coming joint session of the EU, in particular, and the AU, we will have to discuss this matter. How do we relate to the two continents, given the recent experience of Libya. I am sure when the AU meets in January for its annual summit these matters will be discussed. How does one handle this experience and how does one relate to members of Nato? I am sure that the matter will be discussed.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 182
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Speaker, Mr President, thank you for your answer. Following the reply, the problem of the reconstruction of Libya and of peace is still going to be very hard. A hard road lies ahead.
We have read much about the joint letter between the US, UK and France, about their interest in the Libyan question. I want to ask a question in relation to the reconstruction. I know that South Africa said they were outmanoeuvred with the resolution in1973.
The is question is, however, when you engage with them in the forums, maybe at a UN meeting, are they prepared to put resources into the reconstruction of Libya, particularly those forces that had an interest in Gadaffi's permanent removal? What would they say when you engage with them about the real reconstruction of Libya, going forward?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, firstly, just to correct the speaker on the other point. South Africa was not outmanoeuvred. There was an abuse of the UN Security Council Resolution of 1973. [Applause.] It was not outmanoeuvred. I just want to correct that. If that is the impression, it is a wrong impression. Big forces abused a resolution that was very clear.
With regard to reconstruction, they are certainly very keen to ensure the reconstruction. I think there was specific interest from the countries that got involved in Libya. Of course, they said that Libya had sufficient funds. The funds they are talking about are the funds the hon member asked to be released, the funds that were frozen. They believe that they have sufficient funds that could be used for the reconstruction.
I cannot give details on what else will happen because there has been a bombardment that devastated cities and there certainly will be a lot of activities to reconstruct. I am sure that the people who were bombing will be the same people who will participate in the reconstruction.
The Libyan money which was frozen will be used. If there are any shortages they will follow the usual procedures that countries do to ensure that they get the money. They say that Libya has enough resources to reconstruct itself. Thank you.
QUESTION 16
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Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 183
QUESTION 15
Question 16:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon members, the former president of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo, uttered the following words in Luanda, Angola, in 1977 at the Congress of the People's Movement for the Liberation of Angola – Labour Party, MPLA, and I quote:
We seek to live in peace with our neighbours and the peoples of the world in conditions of equality, mutual respect and equal advantage.
This is what should guide our relations with foreign nationals, especially those from the African continent. Racism, racial discrimination and related intolerance are in conflict with our Constitution and human rights culture and should be eradicated in all their forms.
In addition, South Africans were recipients of friendship, solidarity and support by the peoples of Africa and the world. The South African government therefore understands international solidarity perfectly well. Foreign nationals have lived among South Africans for decades in conditions of peace and friendship.
The new antiforeigner sentiment in some communities is fuelled by a number of factors. Amongst these are poverty, income inequality and joblessness. It also entails competition for scarce resources such as housing and basic services. There is also a high percentage of unemployment among youth, which gives rise to vulnerability and negative influences.
Ineffective implementation of municipal bylaws regulating informal trading has also been cited as a problem which has led to competition for trading space. There are also criminals who hide behind the screen of antiforeigner sentiments. We are attending to all these underlying causes.
Last year, we established an Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, chaired by the Minister of Police, to deal with the matter. They developed a plan that the government is implementing. An important intervention is to mainstream civic education in society and promote awareness about foreign nationals and the fact that not all of them are illegal immigrants. There are also foreign nationals who are in our country as refugees fleeing conflict in their countries.
The government has systems of providing assistance to them in a humane and caring manner. We acknowledge that many of them contribute immensely to economic growth in our country. They bring skills and add to the cosmopolitan atmosphere that any progressive country in the world needs.
We welcome the involvement of Chapter 9 institutions, for example, the South African Human Rights Commission, in helping us to deal with this challenge. The Commission sent government its report and recommendations on what government departments should do following the tragic 2008 attacks. The IMC will be meeting later this month to review progress including what has been done to implement the Human Rights Commission's recommendations.
Most importantly, government cannot effectively deal with this challenge alone. We invite all sectors to become part of the campaign to build a caring society.
Nom J B SIBANYONI
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Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 183
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiNdebele:
Nom J B SIBANYONI: Somlomo nawe Mongameli, ngokuqalisa ehlathululweni yakho endabeni emraro omkhulu kangaka, ngithokoza indlela ohlathulule ngayo ehle kangaka begodu ikarisa kwamambala. Indaba yama-nonnationals nama-nationals imraro orara abantu khulu. Akhe ngidzubhule:
English:
The ANC is against all forms of discrimination be it against nationals or non-nationals in the form of xenophobia; hence in 2007 national conference, the ANC resolved that the ANC structures must take a lead in fighting xenophobic practises and ensure the integration of refugees in society.
As we celebrate the centenary of the existence of the ANC in 2012, we should thank all the foreign countries, especially our neighbouring countries, for having pledged solidarity with us in times of the struggle and hosted our struggle stalwarts when they were forced by the oppressive regime to seek refuge.
IsiNdebele:
Alo-ke Mongameli, bengikubawa amezwi wakho wokuthi thina njengabajameli bomphakathi – ama-public representatives – sibotitjhere nabafundisi singenza bunjani ukuphelisa ukuninwa kwamaphandle? Ngithokoze. [Isikhathi siphelile.]
IsiNdebele:
Nom MONGAMELI WENARHA: Kufanele Lunga eliHloniphekileko bonyana njengabajameli belizwe leli bona siragele phambili ngokutjhumayela ivangeli lokuthanda amaphandle. Asibaphatheni kuhle singabanini ngombana nabo basiphatha kuhle. Kusifiso sethu bonyana lokhu okwatjhiwo yihlangano ephetheko ebe itjhumayela boke abantu bonyana bajoyine, babambisane kufezeke. Kade sihlala nabo abantu laba. Sihlale nabantu abavela eendaweni ezihlukahlukeneko. Begodu sinobuhlobo nabo godu babakhwenyana. Kezinye iindawo nathi sibakhwenyana babo. Akuphathwaneni kuhle kwakhiwe ubuhlobo. Nange singenza njalo sizabe silwisana nezinto ezinengi ngombana sizabe sitjhumayela ubunye ngaphandle kokuninana ngobuzwe nanyana ngobuhlanga. Asirageleni phambili senze njalo.
Mina ngingathaba khulu nangabe iNdlu yesiBethamthetho le ingabetha ifengwana yebumbano netjhebiswano enarheni le, ikhumbuze abantu bonyana kufanele sibaphathe kuhle abosozizwe, ama-Afrika neenhlobo zethu. Siyathokoza.[Iwahlo.]
Mnu V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 183
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Mongameli, angizukukhuluma ngabakhwenyana.[Uhleko.] Angikhulumi futhi ngalaba abasemthethweni, ngikhuluma ngalaba abahamba ngaphansi kocingo abangafanele ukuba lapha futhi okubonakala laphaya kwezinye izindawo kuthiwa bathatha izindlu zabanye abantu. Lobudlelwane okhuluma ngabo othi buholwa nguNyambose, ikomidi eliholwa nguNgqongqoshe WamaPhoyisa lifinyelela nini kulaba ukuze bakwazi ukuphindela kubo? Phela ngoba kukhona abakithi nathi abaswele abangaphakathi okudingeka bakwazi ukucosha lokhu kwalapha eNingizimu Afrika.
IsiZulu:
UMONGAMELI WEPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, ngibonga ilungu elihloniphekile lesishayamthetho, lokhu engikhulume ngakho okuzobhekwa ngqo yikomidi eliphethwe nguNyambose, libhekene kanye nabo labo abahubuluza ngaphansi kocingo, abangekho emthethweni. Yibona labo esifuna ukuba sithole indlela ukuthi labo bantu uma betholakala babuyiselwe emakubo, hhayi ukuthi kuzobe kuqalwa yinto esiyenza ngqo ukuthi uma betholakala bayathathwa babuyiselwe emakubo. Sinendawo lapho bagcinwa khona ukuthi uma sebetholakele bagcinwe khona bese beyagoduswa.
Sikhuluma ngalabo esithi kufanele ukuthi ingalo yomthetho ifikelele kubona. Uma sekutholakele umuntu kuyaye kutholakale ukuthi njengoba echushe phansi kocingo ukusiphi isimo na. Nabo labo abachusha phansi kocingo bakhona abachusha ngoba bexoshwa yisimo sezombangazwe emazweni abo. Siphoqelelwa ngumthetho kazwelonke ukuthi abanjalo singababuyiseli emuva, sibanikeze ilungelo lokuthi bavikeleke njengababaleki ababalekele ezombusazwe noma ngabe bahubuluze ngaphansi kocingo. Phela uma ngabe umuntu ebaleka kwelakubo ngoba kukubi, isinyathela amasimba abantwana[Uhleko.] akakwazi ukuthi abeseyocela futhi kuye lowo hulumeni i-passport yokuhamba. Ngeke akwazi ukuyithola, uyangena ahubuluze. Kulowo msebenzi esimthola ukuthi ungena nje engenaso isizathu lowo simbuyisela emuva.
Leli komidi njengoba sengishilo lizohlangana libuke umbiko lo oye walethwa kuhulumeni ezinye izakhiwo bese lenza izinhlelo zokuthi lizoqhuba kanjani ukusebenza nokuthi lilwisane nalokhu. Okuyinkinga njengoba usho sekuyezwakala ukuthi abanye babo bathatha izindlu zona lezi ezifuneka ngabe zithathwa yilabo abantulayo abalapha ngaphakathi. Yikho konke lokho-ke okuzobhekwa bese kuyalungiswa, lungu elihloniphekile. Ngiyabonga, Somlomo. [Ihlombe.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 183
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, we are all saddened by the senseless xenophobic attacks on foreign nationals in our country. During the struggle against apartheid, thousands of South Africans were given refuge all over the world, particularly on the African continent.
They were given job opportunities and access to schools and universities as well as proper medical care when they required it. They were not accused of being the source of the problems that their countries were experiencing.
Hon President, while I accept that it is our collective responsibility to ensure that we educate our members about how to treat foreign nationals among us, does the government have any specific programme or a plan in place to educate our people that besides respecting the rights of the foreign nationals we need to learn to reciprocate?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, in what I have said, I have mentioned that we need to talk and we have been talking about it to conscientise our people about what happened to us when we were also refugees and freedom fighters in other countries, and it is important - there is also the international rule and law - that when people come under difficult conditions they must be cared for, and that is what we are saying.
Whatever we do, we cannot allow a situation where there is an antiforeigner attitude. It is not correct and that is why I am saying, hon member, that we should all of us here, collectively as Parliament, give leadership to educate the nation on that matter in addition to whatever has been done.
I am certain that Parliament itself could work out a programme that could be used and be powerful if it is led by the representatives of the people in this country, who were elected and who are here in Parliament. Certainly, this must be a challenge for all of us, not only for the government, because this is what we have been doing.
As the hon member said earlier, the ruling party in fact undertook a programme. I will be happy if other parties join the ruling party to do so. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S MOKGALAPA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 183
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Speaker and hon President, I think these xenophobic attacks have put us all to shame and we definitely do accept your call for collective responsibility.
Mr President, firstly, since you became the President of the Republic in May 2009, would you say that xenophobia in South Africa has gotten better or worse? Could you please just explain your answer. Secondly, considering that as President you have a powerful voice to influence people, what have you done in your personal capacity to speak out against xenophobia; and in your opinion have you done enough? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker and hon member, I will give an answer, without explaining it. [Laughter.] I think it is true that there have been incidents of xenophobia, which we acted upon immediately, and indeed we stopped it instantly and interacted with the people.
In fact, we went to a number of areas to talk to people to resolve that question. We went to the area of Gauteng in Johannesburg, East Rand and Tshwane. Indeed, it cooled down and it disappeared, but I think it has been showing itself in various areas not only amongst ordinary people, but also in business. In Soweto, for example, business people raised their voices about the fact that foreigners were taking their businesses. Action has been taken and I think we should continue to do so.
As long as we have poverty and the large number of foreigners, it certainly is a recipe for this problem to keep on returning. That is why it needs all of us to deal with it. We must conscientise our citizens that it is not correct to have a wrong attitude towards a foreigner, because they are our brothers and citizens of this continent and of this globe.
Of course, others come from beyond Africa, but we should be able to handle the matter. I think so far, given the number of the foreigners who are in South Africa, we have handled this question fairly. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
QUESTION 17
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 184
QUESTION 16
Question 17:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, hon members, it is not necessary for the President to lay down a policy position on matters related to fruitless and wasteful expenditure and on the improper use of state funds. These matters are addressed satisfactorily in the Public Finance Management Act and in its subordinate Treasury regulations.
In terms of the Public Finance Management Act, accounting officers of departments and institutions are responsible for the effective, efficient, economical and transparent use of their institution's resources.
In addition, the Act requires accounting officers to take effective and appropriate steps to prevent unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Officials are also required to take effective and appropriate steps to prevent, within that official's area of responsibility, any unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure. The law also makes provision for appropriate disciplinary steps to be taken against any official of a government department or public entity, who makes or permits unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure.
In addition, Treasury regulations require accounting officers to exercise all reasonable care to prevent and detect unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure and must, for this purpose, implement effective, efficient and transparent financial and risk management processes. Regulations also provide that losses or damages resulting from unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure must be recovered or dealt with.
It is, therefore, clear that the current legislative framework makes adequate provision for accounting officers and accounting authorities to deal with transgressions, disciplinary steps and the recovery of losses resulting from fruitless and wasteful expenditure. We also appreciate the role of Chapter 9 institutions such as the Office of the Auditor-General, Public Protector and the SA Human Rights Commission, amongst other institutions, which monitor such conduct on behalf of the public.
We also have law enforcement agencies and investigative bodies such as the Special Investigating Unit, Asset Forfeiture Unit and other instruments to deal with serious transgressions. In addition, executive authorities are required by the Constitution to report regularly to Parliament on matters under their control, including actions taken on the matters relating to the member's question.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 184
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, the President has indeed gone through a long laundry list of checks and balances that exist in our country to prevent the misuse of public funds. Yet, still, Mr President, far too much public money is wasted in South Africa - money that should be used to improve services for all South Africans.
Mr President, all spheres of government need to redouble their efforts to curb fruitless and wasteful expenditure, and we must guard against new forms of wasteful expenditure. Next year, the organisation that you lead, the ANC, will celebrate its centenary. Taxpayers' money is already being used to upgrade infrastructure that will be used during the ANC's birthday celebrations. [Interjections.]
Would you agree that it is wrong to use public money to support this event, either directly or indirectly? If not, why not? And would you agree that spending of this nature should be classified as fruitless and wasteful? [Interjections.]
Would you agree that Ministers, MECs or government officials who have been engaged in such expenditure should be held responsible and criminally liable for this spending, and that the money should be recovered? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, once again, I wish the member was specific as to where this is taking place because to answer generalisations is a big problem.
It is of no assistance to make a statement about something that is being done if you don't disclose the particular point at which that is being done, so that those responsible for doing so can move immediately and deal with those matters. I think the hon member wants me to generalise on allegations that are being made. [Interjections.]
As you know, South Africa has the oldest organisation, the ANC, celebrating its centenary next year. [Applause.] Now, the ANC is different from other political parties. [Interjections.] It was established by the South African people - in fact, Southern African people - and these people believed they have a right to celebrate this organisation. How they will celebrate it, I don't know as yet. If there was evidence that these people are, in a sense, celebrating it in this way or that way, I would say let us look at the issue.
The ANC liberated the oppressor and the oppressed. [Applause.] If, for example, people, who recognise the work done by this organisation to liberate all of us, want to utilise facilities that are there in the country, which are used by others for any other thing, is there anything wrong with that?
HON MEMBERS: No!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: But if you said there is an officer who budgeted to celebrate the centenary from the budget of the country, then let us discuss that matter if that is an issue. [Interjections.]
That is why I started by saying that if, hon member, you generalise, you put me in a difficult situation. How am I supposed to answer? There may be no case to substantiate those allegations at all. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: The ANC, as far as I know, has been raising its own funds to celebrate its centenary ... [Interjections.] ... and it has spent money to celebrate its centenary. That is what I know. As leaders of the ANC, we have participated in raising the money.
Any suggestion that says that there is money that is being used, which does not belong to the ANC... [Interjections.] ... and you are not being specific, then that's a problem for me. If you are not specific, how do I react to that? [Interjections.] Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 184
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N J J van R KOORNHOF: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Hon President, let's get back to the question that was originally addressed to you. We all should save our resources, whether it's a private household or the government, especially in these times. I therefore think that government should set the example and so should the Ministers.
Hon President, will you consider taking up the matter of wasteful expenditure with each Minister whose department has failed the nation and hold them personally accountable if the situation is not rectified in the following year? In other words, will you fire them if they do not perform during the following year? [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, really, I have answered the question. There are measures and remedies that are there if such a situation arises. In the history of this government, those measures have been implemented whenever we have found wasteful expenditure. Certainly, action will be taken. There is no doubt about that. I don't think anyone would doubt that if we find such transgressions, we are going to act. We have been acting and we will continue act.
The type of action that we will take to remedy the situation will depend on the nature and gravity of the transgression. As you know, it does not prescribe firing only. It prescribes a number of steps and a number of different levels of what one can do. [Interjections.]
This applies to absolutely everything that you are talking about. So I'm saying that if we find a transgression, we will act. And the action taken will be in accordance with the size of the crime committed.
Mr N SINGH
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 184
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr N SINGH: Mr President, whilst I agree that one has to act, and whilst I agree that there are legislative prescripts that recognise and identify fruitless and wasteful expenditure, what is cause for concern is the ability of the departments, firstly, to deal with allegations of corruption and, secondly, to take disciplinary action against offenders.
I say so, Mr President, after reading from the Public Service Commission's report of March 2011. In the report it is stated that when it comes to investigations into allegations of corruption, only 15% of the departments were found to have advanced investigative capacity and 25% have basic capacity, others don't have any capacity.
On disciplinary actions, the PSC has found that departments are often lenient in imposing disciplinary sanctions against officials found guilty of fraud and corruption. It is common to find written or final written warnings to officials found guilty of fraud and corruption. This ties up with the question posed by the hon Koornhof that not enough is being done to make an example of those officials who are responsible, especially for fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Fruitless and wasteful expenditure is expenditure that brings no tangible outcome for the department or taxpayer. [Time expired.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, you are reading a report that refers to certain departments that may not have the capacity at all, while some have very limited capacity and have been lenient towards those that are found to have done something wrong. That is the view emerging from the report. Even when it comes to those that have no capacity at all, the report doesn't say they have not acted. It does not necessarily make that assertion.
Now, as Members of Parliament, why don't we make proposals to say that if we find this kind of thing, this is what we should do because different departments, finding discretions of one kind or the other, act in a particular way. I think you should be saying that maybe because we are critical as a result of the report, we must discuss what other remedies we would want to propose, and then I will listen to you. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Adv T M MASUTHA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 184
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Adv T M MASUTHA: Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, I agree entirely with you and I would like to echo your sentiments in congratulating the Auditor-General for uncovering some of these difficulties and challenges in government departments so that we, as legislators, can also do our part in exercising oversight. In this regard co-operation with members of the executive is absolutely crucial.
However, Speaker, I would have expected the new Leader of the Opposition to rise to the occasion today and tell us what the DA is going to do with Mr Odendaal in Midvaal. [Interjections.] A report has just been presented by the Public Protector exposing millions of rands that belong to the public, which have been wasted by a councillor of the DA. [Interjections.]
What are you going to do? [Interjections.] If you live in a glass houses, remember not to throw stones recklessly. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
Mrs J D KILIAN: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I would like to know whether this session is for questions to the President or for questions to the DA? [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, it's not a supplementary question.
QUESTION 18
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 185
QUESTION 17
Question 18:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the hon member refers to section 12(1) of the Income Tax Act, announced in the 2011 Budget. As of 31 October 2011, the Minister of Trade and Industry has approved eight major industrial projects in terms of this particular scheme.
These projects will create 21 112 direct and indirect jobs and result in a total investment of about R9 billion by the private sector. The projects cover a broad range of industrial sectors including agroprocessing, biofuels, pulp and paper, and chemical and plastic industries.
As you know, this particular tax-based incentive scheme caters for large industrial projects with a minimum greenfield investment value of R200 million in manufacturing assets. These projects have been selected on the basis of their strong backward and forward linkages and their potential to create jobs along the entire value chain.
We do not have information on the number of people who have since been rehired. We are however very reassured by the strong improvement in employment creation over the past year. After the substantial job losses from the time the global economic downturn started in late 2008, through to the end of last year, employment creation has recovered very satisfactorily.
The latest Statistics SA survey shows that total employment grew by 340 000 from the third quarter of 2010 to the third quarter of 2011, or by 2,7%. Formal employment increased by 390 000 or 4,3% in the same period. This reflects a faster rate of growth than the GDP. Thank you.
Mr M G P LEKOTA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 185
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Speaker, I would like to apologise to you and the President for arriving late; I had an appointment that was quite a distance away. [Inaudible.]
Mr President, I think the majority of the people in the country agree with the Deputy President's warning that unemployment is a ticking time bomb. As we speak, the Development Bank of South Africa, DBSA, warned two days ago that if we are to create jobs, we need 10% growth. The Financial and Fiscal Commission, FFC, has a similar view: that, at a minimum, we need 8% to 9% growth.
Yet the Minister of Finance advised us a week or two ago that the growth rate that we will probably achieve is 3%, or 4% at best. That means we will not be able to create jobs in the manner government has promised.
Now, the big question is, what is government going to do in the light of those projections because, as the Deputy President said, unemployment is a ticking time bomb? What steps are we taking to avoid this situation, because when these realities happen, we will be faced with a rebellion from increasing numbers of young people in this country? Why is government persisting with the idea that it will create 500 million jobs under these circumstances?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the hon member will, of course, know that when government said it was going to create a specific number of jobs, it was discussing the matter in the context of a global recovery from the financial problems of 2007-08. Things, of course, have changed. We now have another financial crisis.
Now, South Africa is not an island that when the world is faced with this difficulty, it can move as if nothing had happened. That crisis affects everyone. In fact, the question of unemployment is a global problem. As long as you have these economic problems you cannot move faster in terms of growth.
Consider, as an example, the situation today where the Eurozone is in difficulties. We are still on the positive, not on the negative, but we can't grow as fast as we thought we could. Nobody could have predicted that there would be this global situation when we said that we were going to grow at a particular rate. We based our outlook on the economic landscape at the time.
What is government going to do? I don't think we can perform magic. We are going to try to do whatever we can to ensure that we are able not just to move faster so as to grow up to 9% or 10%, but also to ensure that we stay in the positive.
The Minister indicated here what we are doing as government to keep our economy afloat and at the same time create employment. There are very specific things that we have done. We have, for example, put aside R800 billion for infrastructure. That is one specific thing that tends to create jobs, and you have already said that, in terms of the statistics, we are in fact creating jobs, but not at the rate at which we had said we would.
However, given the plans that we have put in place, we are confident that we are going to create jobs and we are going to deal with the situation; and in the face of the global economic crisis, we are still moving forward. Thank you.
Mnu Z C NTULI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 185
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
isiZulu:
Mnu Z C NTULI: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, ngibonge nakuMongameli.
English:
Speaker, we have learnt that there is a shortage of skills, hence the roll over of infrastructure funds. What role can infrastructure development play in job creation and skills development and how can the Presidential Infrastructure Co-Ordinating Commission assist with this? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, the Presidential Infrastructure Co-Ordinating Commission will certainly play a role. That commission is going to look at very specific projects, particularly if you take into account that, as I have just said, resources and funds have been put aside for infrastructure.
We are working very hard on a plan to deal with very specific national infrastructure projects. Once we start up infrastructure projects it certainly create jobs and in the process, as it has been experienced, people learn skills. Once there has been infrastructure development, and by the time it has been completed, there are people who qualify for certain skills. So, in a sense, we will be making a contribution.
Of course, we are inviting the private sector to participate as well. So we believe the plans we have, will in a sense, contribute towards skills development.
In addition to the area of infrastructure, we are also concentrating on skills development at other levels, including the level of the higher education, through, for example, reviving the colleges so that we are able to create skills at a faster rate. We certainly hope our plan will help address the challenges you are talking about. Thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 185
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, in admitting that the Industrial Development Corporation could do more for sustainable job creation, the chief executive, Mr Qhena, said there are many hurdles with regard to policy that are holding it back, and that there has to be more policy adjustments at government level.
Can the President expand on this, on whether or not progress is being made in adjusting these policies, and what the hurdles are? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I wish I knew what the specific bottlenecks are that I am supposed to comment on and whether we are doing something about them.
We have been working hard and, I have said this repeatedly, we are trying to move away from the slow-paced manner in which governments do things. We want to do things differently. That is part of what we have been trying to do, to say that we can be quicker and better in terms of how we implement our policies and how we deal with bottlenecks.
Government does this continually. It is not as if we are going to start afresh by asking what we can do. We do it at all material times in terms of asking how we move forward. As you say, we need to industrialise, and part of what we are saying is that we need to create more opportunities so that more possibilities and opportunities are created for our citizens so that we are able to employ our skills.
We also need to deal those with new skills, who don't have any experience when coming out of the tertiary institutions. We have the plans on how to handle that so that we can move forward more quickly and cause all our skills to engage with the challenges. Thank you.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Thursday, 10 November 2011 Take: 185
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, last week the hon Deputy President said in the House that the major obstacle to the implementation of the youth wage subsidy, which you promised to implement two years ago, was the resistance of the unions, and Cosatu in particular.
Mr President, it is a matter of fact that if government had implemented the youth wage subsidy in April 2010, nearly a quarter of a million young South Africans would by now have had the opportunity to move from poverty into gainful employment. A policy deadlock between Cosatu and the government has kept these young people out of work, and was listed by ratings agency Moody's ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, I rise on a point of order: I think there is some problem with the listening skills because the Deputy President spoke in the House, but the words that are being put in his mouth were never uttered by him in the House.
Hon MEMBERS: Yes, they were! [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Please conclude, hon member.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, I would like enough time to finish my question, please. That was not a point of order.
The SPEAKER: Conclude, hon member.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr President, it is a matter of fact that, if the government had implemented the youth wage subsidy policy in April 2010, nearly a quarter of a million young South Africans would by now have had the opportunity to move from poverty to employment.
A policy deadlock between Cosatu and the government has kept them out of work and was listed by ratings agency Moody's as a major reason for yesterday's downgrade of South Africa's debt outlook. Mr President, this cannot go on. How do you plan to meet the new deadline of 1 April 2012 for the implementation of the youth wage subsidy policy?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I am sure that we all agree that, in a democratic country, consultation and engagement are important. Only in countries where there are dictatorships would a government just pass a decree if it had an idea.
If we said we thought there needed to be an incentive with regard to youth such as we talked about, and we said to Cosatu – that very strong and powerful trade union movement – that we didn't care what it said, and we just proceeded, then, certainly you would have said that this is an autocracy. You would have said that government doesn't listen to the people's voices; it just moves.
We have been engaging Cosatu on this matter because it is important to do so. That is part of the elements of democracy. In a democracy, you do not move ahead just because you are convinced; you have to take your citizens along, no matter how you feel. This is what we have been doing and we have made a lot of progress with Cosatu on this matter.
An HON MEMBER: There has been no progress for two years! [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Of course you would say there is no progress because you don't know. If you want to be part of the discussions, then join the ANC, and be part of government. You will then be part of the negotiations.
We have made very good progress on this matter and we are very happy with the progress we have made. You will see the results very soon. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I thank the President, and am reminded that the Deputy President, in fact, said that this matter is being discussed in Nedlac.
Debate concluded.
The House adjourned at 15:45.
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