Hansard: Questions to the President, Jacob Zuma
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 12 Sep 2011
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 567
TUESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 2011
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_____________________________
The House met at 14:00.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER
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START OF DAY
NEW MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I wish to announce that the vacancy which occurred owing to the resignation of Mr W P Doman has been filled, with effect from 19 August 2011, by the nomination of Mr G G Hill-Lewis. Welcome, hon member. [Applause.]
The member had made and subscribed to the Oath in the Deputy Speaker's Office on 8 September 2011.
The SPEAKER
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The SPEAKER
WELCOMING OF DELEGATION OF CANADIAN BRANCH OF COMMONWEALTH PARLIAMENTARY ASSOCIATION
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I wish to acknowledge the presence in the gallery of the delegation of the Canadian Branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, led by Mr R Hiebert. [Applause.] Honourable members, welcome to our Parliament.
QUESTIONS – PRESIDENT – QUESTION 7
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The SPEAKER
Question 7:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker and hon member, before I answer Question 7, may I take this opportunity to congratulate our Springboks, the mighty Springboks ... [Applause.] ... on winning against quite a formidable side and on winning with a professional margin. [Laughter.]
Hon member, government is guided by the Constitution of the Republic, which makes provision for the promotion and protection of the rights of persons with disabilities. To expedite the implementation of the transformative policies adopted after 1994, South Africa signed both the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and its Optional Protocol in 2007 and ratified the convention in 2008.
The convention covers a number of key areas, such as accessibility, rehabilitation, participation in political life, equality and nondiscrimination. In order to ensure the proper implementation of the covenant, the government is developing a national disability policy and its implementation guidelines. Work is also under way to develop a disability Act which will deal with the enforcement, noncompliance and implementation of the convention, as well as all disability-related policies of the land. We will also continue to promote the inclusion of persons with disability in the mainstream economy through instruments such as the Employment Equity Act and the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, amongst other things.
The recent Employment Equity Commission report indicated dismal figures with regards to the representation of persons with disabilities at top and senior management levels in the workplace. This was put at 0,8%, together with that of African women. Solutions to this challenge that we are looking at include proposed amendments to the Employment Equity Act to incorporate proposals such as increasing the fines imposed on employers to deter them from not complying with the Act. The amendment also seeks to amend the definition of designated groups, to limit the meaning of black people, women and persons with disabilities to South African citizens and to those who have become citizens through naturalisation.
This will mean that the employment of persons who are foreign nationals or became citizens after April 1994 will not assist employers to meet their affirmative action targets. Other special initiatives with regard to job opportunities include the Department of Labour's initiative of funding and managing Sheltered Employment Factories for persons with disabilities. There are 12 such factories currently, and discussions are at an advanced stage for them to be increased and transformed.
At a practical level, among great strides that have been made to deliver services to persons with disability is access to social assistance. To date, a total of 983 331 persons with disabilities obtain the disability grant from government, while a total of 122 153 children with disabilities receive the care dependency grant to assist their caregivers to look after them. In addition, 248 589 persons with temporary disabilities receive the temporary disability grant. These grants contribute immensely to the alleviation of poverty.
We welcome the participation of civil society, in particular organisations representing the interests of people with disabilities, in monitoring the measures that government has taken and is working on to expedite implementation of post-1994 policies. I thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Adv T M MASUTHA
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THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Adv T M MASUTHA: Thank you, Your Excellency, for a very informative reply. I am sure you will agree with me that at the heart of the challenges that face disabled people in South Africa is the negative social attitudes that exist in society, where many people do not have the confidence that disabled people can make a meaningful contribution like all other members of society. Would the President use his enormous influence in society to help change these attitudes? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, we will certainly do so. I think the measures that I have just given are part of what we are trying to do to ensure that people with disabilities are indeed treated as the Constitution requires. So, we will certainly use whatever influence we have to ensure that that is done and that the Constitution is implemented. I thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS
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THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The SPEAKER: Will the hon Ross move to the microphone, please. The microphone seems to be malfunctioning.
Mr S J F MARAIS: It's not Ross; it's Marais.
The SPEAKER: Mr Marais, yes. Please go ahead.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Mr Speaker and Mr President, you will excuse me if I say that for all the years that I have been in Parliament your answers to the questions have sounded so familiar, and I can assure you that from the fraternity that I represent, the disability fraternity, very little has been done and has been seen and experienced on the ground. However, with regards to the mentioned UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, very few, sir, of your government departments and their staff know about this convention. Fewer understand the content and the intention of this convention, and even fewer implement the relevant conditions and the requirements, Mr President.
This is whilst your government finalises and implements regulations on a daily basis that impact and, more than often, infringe on the rights of this most vulnerable group of citizens, which the convention aims to protect and support. We have numerous examples of persons with disabilities who are further marginalised on a daily basis. We have seen this with Sars. And, there is one or two printers of Braille books for blind schoolchildren in this country, and, until today, no order has been placed for books for next year, and payments are in arrears for months and months. Those blind children are marginalised as we speak, sir.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr S J F MARAIS: How will you ensure compliance by your government departments and what remedies are available? Thank you very much.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, yes, we cannot say that enough has been done in this regard, but I think a number of things have been done, as I have indicated here. Certainly, where there is a lack of people doing what they are supposed to do, we certainly will continue to ensure that we impress upon them that they must implement the law and that they must do what is right in terms of ensuring that we do not marginalise people with disabilities. We will continue to do so, and I am sure that all of us need more education.
You will appreciate that the question of working, implementing, and coming up with the rights of people with disabilities is not something that has been there for decades. I think this has only been the case with the democratic government that this issue has been addressed, and I can imagine that we will have to educate people as much as possible to understand that things have changed. This government has changed things, and we must act according to what the Constitution says. I think it is the duty of all of us, particularly Members of Parliament, to help educate society. It is our joint task to do so, because the regulations, rules, legislation, and Constitution are there. This is a question of how to make everybody appreciate them and therefore act on this issue. So, we will continue to educate people. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI
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THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI: Mr Speaker and hon President, given that South Africa is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities for which an initial country report has yet to be delivered, what measures are to be proposed to ensure that both government and the private sector adhere to the convention? Thank you, sir.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I think the answers that I have given today indicate which measures we are trying to implement as government, to ensure that everybody participates in ensuring that we do not marginalise people with disabilities. That is what we will do. That is why I am talking about the convention so much, to ensure that all of us appreciate it, and therefore the next step is to implement it. We will continue to do so, as I have said. We will continue to preach to those who take time to hear and to reach those, as far as possible, who might miss the opportunity to hear when we say this. We will certainly do that. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 8: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC /Mia / END OF TAKE
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QUESTION 7: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 8:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the government of Botswana has not communicated with the South African government about the statements attributed to the said organisation. Botswana is a democratic country. It holds democratic elections. Whatever the government in that country does is in line with the will of the Botswana people.
Political relations between South Africa and Botswana remain strong, cordial and mutually beneficial, and with good reason. History has bound the two countries and peoples in a friendship and kinship that goes beyond normal diplomatic relations. Our relations were cemented during the days of our struggle for liberation from colonial oppression and apartheid.
Driven by the desire to see their South African brothers and sisters liberated, the successive governments and people of Botswana hosted our freedom fighters under very difficult conditions. Botswana was the only border and only route for our freedom fighters for a long time when other routes, such as to Mozambique, Zimbabwe and Swaziland, were not yet open for freedom fighters to use.
This solidarity was accorded to our people at great cost to Botswana and her people as the apartheid regime retaliated with bombings and attacks on the citizens of Botswana. Botswana and South Africa are also bound together by cultural, linguistic and family ties between the two nations owing to our geographic proximity.
The President of the Republic of Botswana Lt Gen Seretse Khama Ian Khama paid a state visit to South Africa from 5 October to 6 October last year. During that visit, we elevated our bilateral relations to the level of a binational commission, chaired by the two heads of state. The commission will meet annually, alternating between Tshwane and Gaborone.
Our co-operation is currently very strong in the areas of agriculture, water, transport, environmental affairs, tourism, trade, aviation, search and rescue, science and technology, health, justice, sport, and arts and culture.
I have been invited to undertake a state visit to Botswana and I have indicated to President Khama that I will do so early next year. Let me reiterate that our relations with Botswana can only grow from strength to strength. I thank you. [Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 568
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Mr President for that reply. The threats by the ANC Youth League to establish a Botswana command team that will work towards uniting all opposition forces in Botswana to oppose what they called a puppet regime by the Botswana Democratic Party must be condemned by all political parties in this House.
We have already seen two coup d'états on the continent this year: the first by the French special forces with United Nations forces in the Ivory Coast, helping Alassane Ouattara rebels, and the second coup by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, Nato, by helping Libyan forces, or rebels, rather, to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi from power. So we don't need a third coup d'état in Botswana by the Youth League.
How will the hon President ensure that such statements are not repeated and that all other formations in our country come to the understanding that the destabilisation of any sovereign country and the toppling of another government by outside forces are wicked and must be condemned in the strongest possible terms?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I am sure that the hon member is aware of what the ruling party has said on this matter, and is also equally aware of the policies and decisions of the African Union that guide AU members. We have definitely acted in that direction. Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr S MOKGALAPA
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THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr S MOKGALAPA: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Mr President, in view of the fact that Botswana is the only SADC country that took a stand against the repressive regime of Zimbabwe and also supports and recognises the National Transitional Council, NTC, of Libya, it is ironic that the ANC Youth League has called for regime change in Botswana, embarrassing South Africa in the eyes of Africa and the international community in the process. Mr President, the question, therefore, is: What is your position with regard to the National Transitional Council of Libya? I thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, allow the President to be heard! We are here to listen to him. [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, well, I think the position of the President of South Africa and South Africa has been articulated on a number of occasions with regard to the NTC in Libya. Secondly, the AU has taken a very clear position, and we are part of the AU. We could not do anything different.
The AU, as an organisation, has not recognised the NTC. There are individual countries that have taken individual decisions on the basis of their right for their national policies. But there is an AU position that South Africa is part of. As South Africa, we have not recognised the NTC. Together with the AU, we have set very specific conditions and, therefore, that is our position, which we have articulated. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr H T MAGAMA
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THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr H T MAGAMA: Thank you, Speaker. Mr President, more than 56 years ago, the ANC and the congress alliance adopted the Freedom Charter as a statement of core principles. The Freedom Charter, amongst other things, states that "South Africa shall be a fully independent state which respects the rights and sovereignty of all nations"; and that "The people of the protectorates Basutoland, Bechuanaland and Swaziland shall be free to decide for themselves their own future".
Now, Mr President, can you confirm that, indeed, South Africa does engage its neighbours on the basis of these core principles? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, certainly, that's what South Africa does. We engage with our neighbours as independent countries and we do not decide for them. They decide for themselves what kind of direction they want to take. What we have done is to enhance relations between ourselves and these countries, and that is what we continue to do.
As I elaborated on my answer here with regards to Botswana, we are, in fact, deepening our relations from that point of view. That has remained our guiding policy from the Freedom Charter that we shall respect the sovereignty of other countries and contribute towards working to promote peace and good neighbourliness. That's what guides us. I totally agree with what you have said. That's our position. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 568
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, perhaps unintentionally, the perception has now been created amongst both African and other nations around the world that we are not as committed to the democratic values and the deepening of democracy in international affairs as we may have professed.
First of all, there are the pronouncements by the youth of the ruling party with regard to Botswana. [Interjections.] I would appeal, Speaker, that the President gets a chance to hear what I have to ask because we want him to answer the question ... [Interjections.] By those pronouncements and, even more seriously, by voting for Resolution 1973, endorsing violent or military intervention in the affairs of Libya, we veered away from our commitment to the resolution of international problems by peaceful means. How does your government at the present time intend to work to change that perception of our country? [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, well, I think I have already answered the first part of the question. With regard to the second part that relates to the resolution of the United Nations Security Council, Resolution 1973, all countries who are members of the United Nations Security Council - three of them from the continent of Africa - voted together. That resolution was co-sponsored by the Arab League, to which Libya belonged as well.
The resolution was very clear. The resolution did not say that Nato must bomb Libya. That is not the resolution. If the hon member has not seen the resolution itself, the hon member must help himself by reading it. [Applause.]
After Gaddafi air forces had attacked innocent protesters, the UN Security Council met and took a resolution to protect the airspace. That is what the resolution says. What has happened is that some countries have abused that resolution, and we have said this on countless occasions - including the Arab League which has disassociated itself from those actions, much as they co-sponsored that resolution, because the resolution has been abused. That's the reality.
Therefore, for South Africa, there is nothing to explain to anyone. Our position is very clear and we have articulated it. We have criticised the Nato forces - and those who have abused the resolution - in public. For the hon member to be able to ask the question properly, he must listen to all sides. He must not listen to one side. He heard us taking a resolution, but he has not heard us criticising it. That's quite strange because we have been saying it quite openly. So our position is clear; it does not need to be clarified to anyone. Everybody in the world is clear where South Africa stands. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
QUESTION 9: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC // GM// END OF TAKE
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QUESTION 8: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 9:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, as the hon members should be aware, the Executive Ethics Code provides for the disclosure of financial interests and gifts of members of the executive and their spouses, permanent companions, parents and dependant children. Currently, there are no plans to extend this to all family members.
Apart from the obvious question as to who exactly would qualify as family members, it is arguable whether a member of the executive could reasonably be expected to be adequately informed about the financial affairs of all such family members, and whether such family members could in turn be placed under a legal obligation to disclose their affairs to the executive. In their wisdom, those who drafted the regulations governing public office bearers realised that we could not subject extended or other family members to rules that apply to their relatives who have chosen to become public office bearers. Like all citizens, those related to public office bearers are entitled to their right to privacy, to work or create work and all other Constitutional rights of South Africans. I thank you.
THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 569
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon President, you and your executive have a chequered record of tardy disclosure with regard to the Executive Members' Ethics Act. It has become commonplace to hear of people that are related or closely linked to members of the executive and, indeed, yourself, securing lucrative state tenders.
The DA recognises the constitutional rights of all citizens in South Africa, whether related to you or any member of your executive or not. Far be it for us to wish to prejudice those that are related or linked to you and your executive from conducting legitimate business endeavours with any arm of government. What we seek to do is to alleviate the perception, should they secure such state contracts, that their achievements are not considered with scepticism and suspicion by the public, because this scepticism is inevitably aimed at you and those that are in positions of executive office.
Mr President, would you support our appeal that any state contracts awarded to family members of the executive and yourself be subjected to specific scrutiny by the Auditor-General to ensure that such contracts meet every prescript of the supply-chain management procurement process in order to guarantee that no contesting tenderer is given the inside track by virtue of their familial or narrow acquaintance relationship with you or any member of your executive? I thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I'm sure that the hon member wants us to chase shadows in trying to create impressions and making them facts. We need to have facts and say that, here is a thing that has been done wrongly and must be investigated. I don't think we can wake up on any day or any morning and hear people speculating, and then say we must change the rules. These members, as I have said, have rights which are equal to those of other citizens. Why should they be subjected to such kind of treatment?
Because it is clear who these people are - those that have been categorised in terms of the law. Why do you pull other people into something who have nothing to do with anything? Why should their rights be infringed upon simply because they are either relatives or whatever? I think that is wrong. You are making us chase shadows. I don't think that is welcomed. There is no democracy that judges people differently because they are related to certain people. I don't think so. Thank you. [Applause.]
Prof B TUROK: On a point of order, Mr Speaker, I was supposed to take a follow-up question on behalf of the ANC. Has there been a mistake in your records?
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order. [Laughter.] Please take your seat!
Mr J J McGLUWA
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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 569
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr J J McGLUWA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Mr President, Minister Richard Baloyi's promise on various occasions in which he stated that the amendments to the ministerial handbook would be "made public certainly before the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup", was a sound and noble promise, yet government is stalling in releasing these changes.
I think that you would agree with me, Mr President, that the public perception out there is that certain members of the executive are misusing and abusing public funds. Certainly, we believe that you can play a vital role in the immediate releasing of these set amendments. My question is: Will the President use his enormous influence to make Minister Baloyi's promise a reality? I thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I will follow up on that question; urgently. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 569
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, Mhlonishwa Mongameli, ngiyakuzwa ukuthi akufunakali sidonse abaseceleni kanye nabangapha. Uma laba abangaphakathi betholakala benecala - baboshwa nini, Mhlonishwa Mongameli? Ngaso sonke isikhathi kuba khona abantu abangayigcini kwalemithetho ekhona. Baboshwa nini labo bantu? Abanye babo yilabo obaqokele ezihlalweni, baboshwa nini uma kufanele ukuba baboshwe?[Uhleko.]
IsiZulu:
UMONGAMELI WEZWE LASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Lungu leSishayamthetho elihloniphekile, wazi kahle ukuthi umuntu oboshwayo ngumuntu otholakala enecala. Mhlawumbe ukuba uthe kimina: 'nangu usibanibani unecala, watholakala impela ukuthi wonile'. Akaboshwa ngani? Njengoba ukhuluma uyafunisela, udukuza nje ebunmnyameni.[Uhleko.]
Ukudukuza ebumnyameni akubuyiseli kakhulu ngoba ungalokhu udukuzile nje ungafiki la uyakhona, ungaze uthinte isilwane uthi uthinta umuntu kanti yisilwane. [Uhleko.] Asingadukuzi ebumnyameni, siqondane ngqo nalabo abonileyo - ongonile. Uma nje ubungitshela ukuthi naba, ababoshiwe ngabe ngizwa kahle. Manje uma uthi: "Laba nje okuthi banje, ababoshwa ngani?". Angibazi ukuthi ngobani, lungu elihloniphekile. Somlomo ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
Mrs J D KILIAN
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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 569
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs J D KILIAN: Through you, Speaker, hon President, the Executive Members' Ethics Act is one of the measures that government has instituted to ensure that we actually comply with the Constitution and provisions of accountability. It is aimed at ensuring that public office is not abused and that knowledge of government business is not determined on the basis of people in high office knowing the inside trading, etc, that they could advance for their own benefit.
Hon President, since you became the head of state, several instances of self-enrichment and abuse of the privileges of office by members of your Cabinet as well as provincial premiers and their executives have occurred. The question is: Do you agree that against the background of popular uprising against corrupt regimes on our continent, specifically Libya, Syria and elsewhere, it would set a dangerous precedent for our country, especially for poor and destitute communities if politicians in high office appear to be immune from sanction by your government and by you as head of state? Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Firstly, I think you cannot compare the South African government to the governments you mentioned - Libya or Syria. They have totally different systems. It is absolutely incorrect to make that comparison in trying to judge us.
Secondly, these generalities do not help. You are telling me that members in government and high office have been found ... Who are they? If you tell me who they are that have been judged or against whom allegations have been made and no action taken, I would understand. You want me to answer a question that is just floating in the air and give a floating answer, because you are not indicating specific people, the findings against them and that we did not act in terms of giving evidence that I have not taken action.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, would you allow me to elaborate on the matter?
The SPEAKER: No, I will not. Take your seat, hon member! [Interjections.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: The Public Protector's report ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat!
Hon President, I'm sure you're done answering that question. We now move on to Question 10, asked by the hon L B G Ndabandaba.
QUESTION 10: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC / A N N / END OF TAKE
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 570
QUESTION 9: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 10:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker and hon members, to ensure good governance and accountability by the newly elected leadership at local government level, a councillor induction programme was conducted during the month of July 2011, and it was well attended and went very well.
The programme focused on, among other things, the following areas: the structures and systems of local government; roles and responsibilities of municipal councils; personal and leadership skills; co-operative governance; municipal budgeting and financial management; and public participation. The induction programme is part of a major, intensive, and ongoing training programme.
The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has also, in conjunction with the National Treasury, developed guidelines for the establishment of Municipal Public Accounts Committees, in order to strengthen the oversight measures in municipalities.
The committees, which are chaired by a councillor, will assist the council to hold the executive and municipal entities to account, and to ensure the efficient and effective use of municipal resources.
It is hoped that the committees will help to increase council and public awareness regarding the financial and general performance of municipalities. These are just some of government's concerted efforts to improve accountability and service delivery at a local government level, informed by the recommendations of the Auditor-General. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Prof L B G NDABANDABA
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 570
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Prof L B G NDABANDABA: Thank you, hon Speaker. I thank the honourable President for his exhaustive and, indeed, enlightening answer. I can only say that as a member of the Standing Committee on the Auditor-General, the SCAUG, we are going to implement all those suggestions given to us and we shall keep the President informed. Thank you. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you very much for that warm reception of suggestions. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE
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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 570
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, arising this question revolves around the word "skills", the problem being that people are appointed to senior positions without the necessary skills to do the work. The same applies with political parties: fielding candidates who do not have the skills to be effective councillors. Now if you had time to watch TV last night, it was said that R1,4 billion was wasted by the municipalities in the Free State because of this problem, and the ANC Whip in the National Council of Provinces has as much admitted that there are no proper skills.
So, Mr President, what should be done is that we should not appoint people who do not have the necessary skills to do the job that you appoint them for. We should not field candidates - all parties - to become councillors and Members of Parliament, present company excluded. [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the general suggestion being made by the hon member to all parties is that members of parties who may be elected to positions of councillors should first be tested – I don't know easy that is - to see if they have the skills or not. I think that is quite a tall order with regard to the councillors, because elections are run by parties and parties are supported and field their members to become councillors. If we are talking about people who get employed, who apply for jobs, that's a different matter. So, this is a matter that if you want to discuss, you could really open that up that discussion in Parliament here to determine for the parties what type of councillors should be fielded. I think that is not an easy matter. It is very easy if you have a job and somebody applies, he or she is interviewed, and you then go through all the questions of whether the person has the skills, etc, and you are able to disqualify that person and find the right candidate.
But in so far as the question relates to the elections, where parties have their own members who then become appointed as councillors, that advice should be given to all parties and it would be better if you did that. I am saying that it is not an easy matter, knowing politicians as I do. I'm sure in your own party you know what this question is. But I think this is quite a point that you are making. As you said, you are advising all parties. Fine. Advise the parties; they are all here. [Laughter.]
Mr M SWART
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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 570
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M SWART: Speaker, thank you to Mr Van der Merwe for the advice which we will also take. Focusing on the issue of those that are employed, one of the main reasons for dysfunctionality, as we know, in municipalities is nepotism, cronyism and, of course, cadre deployment, as we focus on the aspects of those that are employed.
Honourable President, would you ensure that the ground-breaking provisions of the recent enacted Local Government: Municipal Systems Amendment Act will be strictly enforced? As you are aware, any municipal manager appointment will be null and void if the person appointed to such position does not have the required skills, expertise, competencies or qualifications, and performance agreements will also be required, and managers dismissed for fraud and corruption will not be able to be re-employed?
Will, honourable President, the rule also be enforced that municipal managers and other managers are prohibited from holding political office in any political party? These aspects are part of that legislation, and strict implementation of these provisions will go a long way to professionalise local government and improve service delivery. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, well, I am not sure whether I can determine for other parties who they put forward. I don't want to give myself an extra job to check each and every councillor and every party as to whether it has gone through that process. I think the only thing that we can do is to have the provisions.
The speaker started by saying that in order to get rid of nepotism and cronyism ... These generalities do not help. I have heard people say all of this. Nobody has said, "Here is So-and-so who is in a job because he is a friend of this person". These generalities create an impression that there is a lot of nepotism and cronyism, but you can't see it, and there is a lot of talk about it. I think we should disabuse ourselves, really, of just sticking to propaganda that we cannot prove. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs M WENGER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 570
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs M WENGER: Mr President, the initiatives that you have mentioned sound good, but I would like to remind this House that the Minister of Public Works, Mrs Gwen Mahlangu-Nkabinde, has yet to account to the Cabinet, to this House and to the South African people for her illegal actions with respect to the SA Police Service leasing deal, and has been backed by Cabinet in her refusal to provide an explanation. Mr President, if that is the attitude of your government ...
Adv T M MASUTHA: On a point of order ...
The SPEAKER: Sorry, hold on. There is a point of order.
Adv T M MASUTHA: An assertion that the Minister has committed illegal actions which has not been substantiated by any finding of anybody is out of order, Speaker. I ask that you rule it as out of order. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Yes, that is the case. That really is out of order. [Interjections.] Honourable President, we move on.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, are you ruling that out of order, Sir?
The SPEAKER: Why?
Mr M J ELLIS: Because, quite frankly, the Public Protector has ruled on that particular point. And I'm not quite sure ...
The SPEAKER: The matter is before the parliamentary committees and those committees have not yet reported back to the House. There are two committees that the matter has been referred to. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, they haven't had a chance to report back to the House. I have to say so, Sir, that I disagree with your ruling. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: The matter is before the committees.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With respect, they don't have to report back to the House. That is a jurisdiction entirely within the precincts of the President. He has to act on that matter, as prescribed in the Constitution and the law. [Interjections.] What are the remedial respects in that regard?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: But then, hon Speaker, if the matter has not yet rested, shouldn't it be allowed to rest first before members can arrive at those conclusions? [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: On a point of order, Speaker: in terms of the Constitution we have Chapter 9 institutions. All of us refer issues to them. They investigate them. They then return decisions or whatever else out of those. The Public Protector has investigated this matter and returned certain conclusions. If we cannot rely on those conclusions, what is their purpose? [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! These are still allegations by the Public Protector. [Interjections.] The Minister has not been found guilty by any court of law. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, Mr Speaker, with great respect, Sir, I think you are being too protective of the President. The Public Protector requested that remedial steps be taken by the President in respect of that report. The hon member is quite right - it is a Chapter 9 institution, enshrined in the Constitution, and the President accepts responsibility, quite rightly, for the results of any investigation and findings thereof. All that we are asking and demanding at this point in time, in terms of the Parliament of this country, is what the steps are that the President is going to take. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order! Please don't shout into the mic. I will recognise you. [Laughter.] Hon Chief Whip?
An HON MEMBER: Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I have recognised the Chief Whip here. Hon Chief Whip, you may proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, with due respect to the whips of the DA, the report has been referred to Parliament and, as you correctly said, the committees of Parliament are looking at that report, and ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: ... at the appropriate time, when the committees are ready, the report will come to this House. This has nothing to do with the President; it has to do with us. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: It does. [Interjections.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: With the greatest respect ...
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Please take your seat, hon member, until I recognise you.
An HON MEMBER: On a point of order ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you can't have a point of order when I've not recognised you. Sit down, until I recognise you.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, on a point of order: It is important to note that this House must accept its responsibility in terms of the Constitution. The Chapter 9 institutions account to this House, to Parliament, and Parliament is absolutely due to report on the matter before the House at present. The honourable President had a deadline which expired last night at 12pm and, apparently, from his office the country was informed that he would not be under any pressure to do so. Now that, hon Speaker, is certainly a constitutional contravention. We expect the President of the country to account to this House today and no later. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Speaker, may I address you on that same point of order that is being discussed by the House? I would submit that the Chief Whip of the ruling party is absolutely correct when he says that Parliament cannot express itself at the moment – we are waiting for the reports of the relevant committees. However, that is not what the point is at the moment. It is not Parliament that wants to take a decision now on reports. It is the honourable President who represents the executive, who is accountable to the legislature with regard to executive actions. In this regard, the hon Minister represents the executive. And, I think, it is within the rights of members of the legislature to ask the honourable President about acts alleged against some of the members of the executive. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: On a point of order ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. I haven't recognised you. Take your seat, hon member. Hon members, I am not going to take any more hands. You can raise five hands at a time; I am still not going to take any of them. I wish to state this, hon members, that this, of course, does not even relate to the question, Question 10. It has nothing to do with Question 10. We are still dealing with Question 10. The questions did not refer to Question 10, and these are questions that we all have in front of us. I am therefore going to move on. This is also because if allegations are made by MPs, they must be made in the form of substantive motions. Those are the rules.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr P J GROENEWALD: It is a completely new one.
The SPEAKER: Please take your seat. [Interjections.] Order! Order!
Mr P J GROENEWALD: It is a completely new point of order. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order!
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, on a point of order: the hon member hasn't finished asking her question yet ...
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, hon member! Order!
Mr M WATERS: Hon Speaker, the hon member hasn't finished asking her question yet. If you gave her time to complete it, it might clarify the matter. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon member! Hon member, you can finish your question, but without reference to the Minister.
Mrs M WENGER: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President ...
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Order! Order ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order. I have not given you the floor. The person is still speaking. Please take your seat. Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: With respect, Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: No, I am rising ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I am rising on a point of order. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Don't rise; sit down. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: I am asking for a point ...
The SPEAKER: Sit down. Hon member, I have given the hon member an opportunity to finish. She is on the floor, hon member.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: This is a point of order. I am asking a point of order. [Interjections.] It is a point of order, Sir.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member. I have asked the member to continue to make her point, without ... [Inaudible.]
What is your point of order, hon member?
Mr M G P LEKOTA: With respect, Speaker, the Office of the Public Protector ... [Interjections.] ... investigates ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, that is not a point of order. It is a statement you are making.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: No, but you may not characterise the report and the findings of the Public Protector ... [Interjections.] ... you may not classify them as allegations. They are findings, Sir. They are findings. [Applause.] It means allegations have been investigated and findings have been made. [Applause.] Please correct yourself, Sir. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Thank you. Take your seat, hon member. Hon member, please proceed.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Speaker, punt van orde ...
The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Dankie, Agb Speaker. Hon Speaker, what I want to know is whether it is parliamentary that the Speaker can take a decision on behalf of the honourable President. And the reason why I am asking this is because in a previous Question Time in Parliament the honourable President himself referred to the report of the Public Protector. You must remember there are two reports. He responded to the first one, and when asked about actions he was going to take, he himself said that he would wait for the second report. Now, the honourable President has received the second report. I want to know whether it is parliamentary that you, as Speaker, make a ruling to decide for the honourable President whether he wants to answer or not. Because he said he would answer when he received the second report.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.] I will allow the member to finish her statement without reference to the Minister. And the Speaker takes the decision in terms of the Rules of the House, not any other Rules. Hon member, please continue.
Mrs M WENGER: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, if this is the attitude of your government towards accountability, how will you persuade South Africans that you will follow through on your bid to bring accountability to municipalities? [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the subject is about local government; I thought so. But the question that you have been debating so much has nothing to do with the answer that I have given. I don't know why I should answer that question because the question is not related to Question 10 in terms of which we are talking about local government. The matter referred to is a matter not within the providence of the local government. That is my problem. We have taken decisions in so far as the issues related to what I have raised here - that we are ready to take action if there is any wrongdoing and we will continue to do so in local government. We will continue to do so at any other level of government.
I am just saying that you have taken up a lot of your time on a matter that really does not relate here. I am sure the members are very keen to hear about this matter. It's time come. They will hear about it. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 11: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC / VM / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 571
QUESTION 10: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 11:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon members, the National Youth Development Agency, the NYDA, has presented, before Parliament, its three-year strategic plan and annual performance plan, focusing on key performance areas. These include economic participation, training and development, national youth service and social cohesion, youth advisory and information services, policy, research and development, as well as the National Youth Fund. This programme was agreed upon at the inception of the NYDA. It also served before the Joint Monitoring Committee on Children, Youth and Persons with Disabilities.
Based on the programmes and interventions outlined in the strategic and annual performance plans of the agency, it is certainly apparent that the NYDA is serving the needs of young people. It is important to highlight that, since its inception, the NYDA has made significant inroads in dealing with the challenges that continue to face young people in the country.
Among other things, the following have been realised: sustaining 61 341 employment opportunities; training 49 341 young people in entrepreneurship; training 84 205 young people in the National Youth Service Programme, thus promoting entrepreneurship and patriotism amongst the youth; issuing 24 062 loans, valued at R60,4 million, to young people; facilitating business opportunities, valued at R142,8 million, for young people; and providing information to over 1,5 million young people through their various access points, including the call centre and its 144 local youth offices.
The NYDA's annual report for the 2010-11 financial year will be presented to Parliament this month, and the hon member will be able to access more specific information in the report.
Notwithstanding these achievements by the NYDA, amid budgetary constraints and related matters, more remains to be done in the quest to concretely develop young people to play a more pronounced role in all sectors of our society.
As must be acknowledged, the NYDA's achievements are but a drop in the ocean, if we consider the many challenges facing young people in our country.
To support the NYDA in achieving its noble objectives, we call upon civil society, the private sector and all sectors of our society to join hands with government in prioritising youth development in their plans, including establishing youth directorates, as outlined in the National Youth Policy of 2009 to 2014. These directorates will foster seamless integration of youth development in the country.
Hon member, there is already a Minister responsible for youth development in Cabinet - the Minister for Performance Monitoring and Evaluation in the Presidency. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 571
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Ms S P LEBENYA-NTANZI: Yes, thank you, hon Speaker. Mr President, arising from your answer, I would like to point out a number of failures of the National Youth Development Agency. Their executives earn millions, while unemployment amongst the youth in the country hovers at 50%. The most noteworthy achievement of the NYDA, so far, has been a youth festival which cost taxpayers an outrageous R100 million. The NYDA claimed it was a success, but there was no tangible outcome in terms of youth development in South Africa.
Mr President, if a Ministry for Youth is not on the cards, what will this government do to assure South Africans that the interests, prosperity and success of all our country's youth, and not just a few connected ANC youth, will be looked after through the NYDA in future. And, what mechanisms will be put in place to monitor the NYDA's performance, successes and failures? I thank you, Mr President. [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. As I said in my answer, there is a Minister responsible for the youth, who is based in the Presidency. So, there is a place where accountability is done in terms of the youth. Regarding the matter of the Ministry of the youth, it has been discussed and the youth have debated that matter. They said that they do not need a Ministry at this point in time. In a sense, the youth feel that it is enough that they have a Minister who is responsible for them. That has been the position until now.
As to what happened during their conference, I am sure that you don't expect me to know those details and give an account of what happened on those day. I am also sure that, at the right time, you can ask the question of the relevant people. I don't think you are expecting me to tell you how much was budgeted, how much was used and how it was used.
So, I won't be able to give that answer right here, but all we know is that the report of the youth said the festival was a success. That is the report we were given, and we had no reason to say they were not telling the truth. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mrs D ROBINSON
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 571
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs D ROBINSON: Thank you, hon Speaker. Mr President, the figures that you quoted just recently are from the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, and they certainly are impressive. But, we still have had no confirmation when we have asked exactly how many positions have been created, and there is a lot of duplication.
However, given that the mandate of the NYDA is to address the serious problem of unemployment amongst South African youth and to promote education and skills training, how do you reconcile or justify the threats made by Andile Lungisa, Chairman of the NYDA, to make South Africa ungovernable? I quote: "To close every street in South Africa, and if there is a cheese in your fridge they are going to take it". [Laughter.]
The NYDA is not a political party; it is a statutory body funded by the taxpayer to the tune of R1,3 billion from 2011 to 2014. Mr President, what is your view on the chaos and mayhem we have seen in our streets recently? Is this how a reasonable civil servant, the Chairman of the NYDA, should conduct himself? Thank you, Sir.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I may be better informed because I'm not sure what platform Lungisa made the statement. I'm not sure. Was he speaking on behalf of this youth organisation that he leads? [Interjections.] Did he day so? [Interjections.] No, no, no. I'm not asking what his position is. I'm asking if he was speaking on behalf of this organisation.
An HON MEMBER: You can't separate the two. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Why shouldn't I separate the two? Let the questioner answer me, so that I'll know what I'm talking about. [Interjections.]
An HON MEMBER: It's irrelevant.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: It is very relevant.
Mrs D ROBINSON: Yes, Chair. The chairman of the Youth ...
The SPEAKER: Order!
Mrs D ROBINSON: Andile Lungisa was speaking at the Black Management Forum and there was a debate about the role of the youth. [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: He was speaking about what? [Interjections.] I can't hear. He was speaking on behalf of the ...
Mrs D ROBINSON: He spoke at the Black Management Forum Young Professional's Summit in Cape Town, where he actually attacked the ANC government, young black professionals, African leaders and various others and said: "We are going to close every street in South Africa. If there is a cheese in your fridge; we are going to take it". [Laughter.] And he complained about the slowness of government delivery. [Interjections.] Is this the sort of thing ...
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order, hon members! Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, the hon member has tried to answer my question. But because Lungisa is also a member of a political party, I want to know if he was speaking there as the Chairperson of the NYDA, or if he was speaking as a member of the ANC Youth League. That's what I want to know. I can't answer the question when I'm in the dark.
Mrs D ROBINSON: I believe he was speaking on behalf of the NYDA. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No, if you just believe ... you don't give me the truth because ...
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Hon President, just hold on for a minute. The hon Minister might want to shed light on the ...
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Speaker, if you would allow me, in terms of the Rules, to assist the hon Robinson. The quotation she referred to appeared in a Sowetan edition two months ago. Two days after that edition, the honourable Lungisa made a statement saying he never said such a thing, nor would he ever threaten to destabilise this democracy which many of them fought so hard for. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Continue, hon President.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, it's going to be difficult for me to answer a question premised on the wrong premise; that's my problem.
Mr M J ELLIS: You can't have your cheese and eat it. [Laughter.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I will do the right thing. If it is the cheese, if I were to eat it, it should be the right one, not the wrong one. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon Manamela, and please no more cheeses, Mr Manamela. [Laughter.]
Mr K B MANAMELA
UNREVISED HANSARD
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Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 571
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr K B MANAMELA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, I think the first thing is that the NYDA is a youth development agency that is representative of most of the political youth formations, including the IFP Youth Brigade. But, I don't know if the hon member from the IFP is suggesting that the IFP Youth Brigade members who are in the NYDA got in there because they are connected to the ANC or the ANC Youth League.
The second thing is that there was a youth convention which involved all the youth political formations in the country, which resolved that the form of governance for youth development will be the NYDA, which is a combination of the Youth Commission and the Umsobomvu Youth Fund.
The third point is that, what we would want to see, through your monitoring and evaluation of all the Ministries and departments of government, is the extent of the implementation of the National Youth Policy, which has been agreed to by all the youth formations in our country. That's the one element which will result in our seeing youth development happening. We cannot allow a situation wherein the entire ... [Inaudible.] ... is centred ... [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Your time has expired, hon member. The honourable President?
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order, Sir. This is Question Time and the hon member should be asking the honourable President a question, not telling the honourable President what he should be saying. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Take your seat, hon member. Honourable President?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. We will certainly ensure that we strengthen our monitoring of the activities of the NYDA. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 571
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, hon President. The question refers to the Ministry of Women, Children and People with Disabilities. People working for a better life for women, children and people with disabilities are saying that the new Ministry is, in fact, counterproductive and money used to create such a Ministry, which has no mandate to deliver services, is desperately needed to implement legislation like the Children's Act and many others.
Is the President prepared to relook at this situation and seriously evaluate the need for this new Ministry, and seriously look at any suggestions around the youth - like mimicking that same thing with the youth - as opposed to the need to use all resources possible in delivering services where people are most vulnerable? Thank you.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. Well, I have not been exposed to those views that say this Ministry is not working; this is the first time I hear that. I don't know why I should apply my mind to that. We have a Ministry that is working so far. That issue has not arisen. So, I have not applied my mind to whether we should keep this Ministry or establish another one. This is the first time that I'm hearing that there are people who are dissatisfied. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon President. Before we move on to question Number 12, I want to state that, the Rules say - when the hon Manamela was making a point or a statement - "A member who asks a supplementary question may make a statement or express an opinion." So, when hon Manamela was making a statement, he was perfectly in order. [Applause.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Mr Speaker, does that mean that the point of order by Mr Ellis was wrong?
The SPEAKER: Yes.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Well, I think we must be ...
The SPEAKER: And so is yours, if you don't sit down. [Laughter.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Speaker, I'm just suggesting that we be lenient with Mr Ellis because tomorrow he leaves Parliament. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: The point has been noted.
QUESTION 12: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC /UNH / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 573
QUESTION 11: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Question 12:
The PRESIDENT: Speaker, the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs who was then the Minster of Provincial and Local Government requested permission to travel to Switzerland in December 2008 in order to perform official duties related to South Africa's hosting of the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup.
Former President Kgalema Motlanthe accordingly granted permission as it was considered important for the Minister to acquaint himself with his new role as chairperson of the host cities under the 2010 Local Organising Committee.
I requested a report from the Minister subsequent to media reports alleging that business other than what former President Motlanthe had been informed about had transpired. The Minister complied. The complaint is also being investigated by the Public Protector and I await the outcome of that process. I thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr M G P LEKOTA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 573
THE PRESIDENT OF REPUBLIC
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Thank you, Speaker. Honourable President, when a member of Cabinet has been sent on a mission such as this one, you would expect to receive a report on his return saying that what he went to do and what he had done. Such a report would not require an investigation now. It should be on your desk. [Interjections.]
Therefore, the country now knows that our public funds were spent there. That meeting that he was originally supposed to attend did not happen. In fact, before he left indications were given everywhere that that meeting was no longer ever going to happen. Instead he visited, in terms of the report, a drug mule in jail.
We, the members of the public in this country, lost thousands of rand because of the limousines that he was driving around in in Switzerland visiting his girlfriend. He was abusing those resources.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: The poor in the squatter camps and the townships have nothing to eat.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: We require a firm ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] Your government must account for this thing. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired. Hon member, I'll have you ejected from the House. [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I think I made the point very clear that the Minister was going there in his capacity as chairperson of the Local Organising Committee which was organising the 2010 World Cup.
Certainly, all the people who went came back and reported to that committee. There were people specifically dealing with those
matters. This was not a mission sent by government, but whoever Minister is who leaves, he or she has to get permission from the President. The President, as I said, granted permission having understood that he was going there on the basis of acquainting himself about how these matters are run. He came back and reported on what he was going to report.
The matter that arises as an allegation arises now. Once the matter arose I asked him to respond to the questions, as I have said, and he did. At the same time, the Public Protector informed me that she was investigating the matter. She has been investigating the matter. We are waiting for her finalisation of the matter. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr S L TSENOLI
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 573
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr S L TSENOLI: Speaker and President, allow me to make a brief statement that: "Monokotswai ha o butswe ho ya ka takatso ya tshwene." [Things don't happen according to what we wish.] We cannot, on the one hand, accept the rule of law in that we must respect institutions while, on the other hand, to then expect to make decisions in spite of our knowing that they are going to act. I assume that we should trust in the process that is under way, as the President has indicated.
Mr President, how do we ensure that we do not only in theory accept the rule of law, but in practice do likewise? Can we act likewise in all these situations?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you. That is absolutely true. If we profess to respect the rule of law, we must do so. It should not change when we feel otherwise. Thank you, hon Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, on a point of order: I note the President's reply, but then why did not he respect the rule of law in terms of the Public Protector's findings in respect of the hon Nkabinde? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: That's not a point of order. Hon Lorimer?
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: What was the rule of law there that I did not respect? Maybe the speaker could tell me.
The SPEAKER: Hon President, we have moved on and I've recognised Mr Lorimer.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBIC: Oh, I see. Sorry. Sorry, hon Speaker. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: I know you can't see me. I'm behind you, Mr President, but I still preside in the House. You have the floor, Mr Lorimer.
Mr J R B LORIMER
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 573
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr J R B LORIMER: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Hon President, you said the following in April this year, and I'm going to quote them back to you. You said:
There will be no hesitation if these things that are being said are true; absolutely no hesitation. There are enough reasons for action to be taken. Here there is going to be action and we are not going to take long even to investigate because these are too serious allegations against the Minister.
Some of those things that were being said are true. Now we know they were true, because Minister Shiceka "admitted" - I want to emphasise that word – that he spent R28 000 putting up a Mr Mntambo, who he described as a father figure, and Mr Mntambo's wife, at the One and Only Hotel, which is one of the most expensive hotels in the country.
Mr President, in view of the fact that there is undisputed evidence of wasteful expenditure and in view of your promises to act quickly, how do you account for five months going by without any action on your part? When you answer, Sir, I do not believe the people of this country and particularly people in failed municipalities will accept hiding behind the processes of the Public Protector.
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Thank you, hon Speaker. I'm not sure why the hon member is implying that there has been no action when I have said here, once there allegations I asked the Minister to explain. I went further to say that the Minister answered my questions. Why must the member then stand up and say that there has been no action - so, your words that you said are not true. This is because I have said that there has been action. [Interjections.] I asked him to explain the allegations levelled against him and he answered.
At that time the Public Protector informed me that she was instituting an investigation. I have to respect that process of the Public Protector. [Interjections.] I could not move on whatever the Minister had answered, because I had to wait for the report from Public Protector. I have had discussions with the Public Protector. Recently she wrote to say that she was sending a final written questionnaire to the Minister. Once the Minister responds, she is going to give the report to me. How could I act before the Public Protector has concluded the case? How could I? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Now I'm saying, hon Speaker, this happened to be one process by me, and my process can't be above the process of the Public Protector. Once the Public Proctor – a Chapter 9 institution - says that its investigating a case, how could I say that I don't care, and then move and take action? I've got to respect the Public Protector and wait for the report. This is what I am waiting for. [Interjections.] That is the answer. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order!
Mr V B NDLOVU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 573
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B Ndlovu:Somlomo, mhlonishwa Mongameli, kukhona umbuzo engiwubuze ngaphambili lapho uthe ngiyampumputha. [Uhleko.] Kulona-ke angimpumputhi Mongameli, sikhuluma ngomuntu ongama lakhe libhaliwe phansi.
Umhlonishwa uMongameli uthi uzolinda uMvikeli woMphakathi. Amazwi afundwe umhlonishwa oyiLungu lePhalamende athi wathi lento ibucayi kakhulu ifanele ukuthathelwa izinyathelo masinyane. Okokuqala, umasinyane usho ukuthini Mongameli? Okwesibili, kuyoze kube nini Mongameli kukhona abantu abangawuhloniphi umthetho wabo wala eNdlini obekelwe ukuhlonishwa ngamalungu ala eNdlini ekubeni bangamalungu futhi eKhabhinethi yakho Mongameli. Kufanele kwenziwe njani ngabo kanti?
UMONGAMELI WEZWE LASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, ngiyalibonga ithuba, lungu elihloniphekile, ngiyakuzwa manje awumpumputhi manje ngoba ngempela likhona igama. Kodwa-ke, njengoba elinye ilungu elihloniphekile licaphunile emazwini engawasho, nangempela nginele ngezwa nje ukuthi amaphephandaba athi kukhona izinto ezenziwa yilo mhlonishwa, angipholisanga maseko, ngambuza ngenza lento ebikade icashunywa yilowo mnumzane.
Ngambuza, ngathi nanka amaphephandaba ekhuluma, uthini ndoda na? Waphendula, kuthe ngaleso sikhathi sengithathe izinyathelo, wabe esethi uMvikeli woMphakathi usethathe izinyathelo zokuluphenya lolu daba.
Ngithe-ke mhlonishwa, angikwazi ukuthi uma uMvikeli woMphakathi esethathe izinyathelo zokuphenya ngiqhubeka mina. Kufanele ngilinde yena aqede, aphethe imbenge ngophenyo lwakhe, alethe umbiko kimina bese ngiyawubheka lo mbiko ngithathe isinqumo. Ngeke ngipholise maseko nangaleso sikhathi. Mhlonishwa Somlomo, ngiyakuphinda lokhu engakusho. [Ihlombe.]
English:
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon President. Order! Hon members ...
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: Why would the President react immediately on that report and not on the report in respect of Nkabinde? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: That's not a point of order. [Interjections.] I was about to thank you, honourable President before I was interrupted. But let me begin at the beginning. That concludes questions to the President. I wish to thank the honourable President. [Applause.] Thank you, hon President. We can allow you to leave, hon President. We will continue.
We now come to notices of motion. Does any member wish to give notice of a motion?
Mr M J ELLIS //NPM Checked by MK(IsiZ) / /GC/ (Eng) / END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
QUESTION 12: The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
Mr M J ELLIS: Speaker, on a point of order: Generally speaking, on the day that the President answers questions there are neither motions nor statements. I am surprised to hear today that you are calling for motions. It is an unusual occurrence on a day like this.
The SPEAKER: No, I am informed by the Table staff that it is not unusual. It is unusual for you to sit until the end of the meeting. That is unusual. [Laughter.]
NOTICES OF MOTION: Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
The SPEAKER
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Mr Speaker, I give notice that I intend moving on the next sitting day of the House on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates ...
Mrs J D KILIAN: Excuse me, Speaker, there was a little sabotage by the hon Van der Merwe. My member is now ready to speak. [Laughter.]
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates how plea bargaining allows the rich to avoid jail sentences by paying high fines, whereas the poor get jail sentences for the same crimes in open court.
Nkul X MABASA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
Xitsonga:
Nkul X MABASA: Xipikara, ndzi susumeta leswaku eka ntshamo lowu landzelaka:
Yindlu yi va na njhekanjhekisano hi ku nyikiwa ka nseketelo wo tiya na ku kongoma eka xiyenge xa mabindzunyingi hi ku tirhisa xiyenge lexi tinyiketeke ku nyika nseketelo hi laha ku nga heriki.
Ms P BHENGU
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr X MABASA
Ms P BHENGU: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the impact of global warming on food security in South Africa.
Mr M B SKOSANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Ms P BHENGU
Mr M B SKOSANA: Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates what is called the Bishop Tutu tax, economic emancipation, and nationalisation of the economy with a view to looking at elements that may be for the common good and lead to reconciliation in society in terms of guiding the public regarding some central issues.
Mrs V BAM-MUNGWANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr M B SKOSANA
Mrs V BAM-MUNGWANA: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates how to expand work opportunities through tourism and other related services.
Mr S B FARROW
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mrs V BAM-MUGWANYA
Mr S B FARROW: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the spate of school and taxi accidents that have recently occurred, the reasons behind them and how to prevent them.
Mr J J SKOSANA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr S B FARROW
Mr J J SKOSANA: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates improving the pupil-to-teacher ratio.
Mr G R MORGAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr J J SKOSANA
Mr G R MORGAN: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the Treasury proposal of a carbon tax and its implications for economic growth in South Africa.
Ms E MORE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr G R MORGAN
Ms E MORE: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the role or the impact of the hospital boards of hospitals in terms of improving health service delivery.
Mr E NYEKEMBA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Ms E MORE
Mr E NYEKEMBA: Hon Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates ways to target labour-intensive production sectors and encourage the potential for activities that have high employment opportunities.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr E NYEKEMBA
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the Free State government's refusal to file a performance agreement with the Public Service Commission as from 2006 to 2010 and that, even as we speak, 11 departments have still refused to file the performance agreement.
Mr M WATERS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 574
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
Mr M WATERS: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the report of the Auditor-General on the performance audit of the infrastructure delivery process at provincial departments of health and education.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY / MN/src(ch)/ END OF TAKE
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
NOTICES OF MOTION: Mr M WATERS
CONGRATULATIONS TO SPRINGBOK RUGBY TEAM
(Draft resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that on Sunday, 11 September 2011, our Springbok rugby team defeated Wales with a final score of 17 to the Wales rugby team's 16, in their first Rugby World Cup game in Wellington, New Zealand;
(2) congratulates our Springbok rugby team on their well-deserved victory; and
(3) urges all South Africans to rally behind our Springbok rugby team during their next qualifying match.
Agreed to.
Mr M A NHANHA
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
BHISHO MASSACRE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M A NHANHA: Hon Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that 7 September 2011 marked the 19th year since the occurrence of the 1992 Bhisho massacre in the then so-called Ciskei homeland;
(2) further notes that activists died and many were wounded during that fateful protest march;
(3) recognises with great sadness the brave souls who paid with their lives for Ciskei's reincorporation into South Africa during the final years of apartheid;
(4) acknowledges their brave contribution to the freedom we enjoy as South Africans to this day; and
(5) offers its gratitude to the victims of the Bhisho massacre and the appreciation of the nation for the liberation achieved through the sacrifices they made.
Agreed to.
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
Mr M A NHANHA
ZION CHRISTIAN CHURCH GATHERS TO WORK TOWARDS ACHIEVING A BETTER LIFE FOR ALL
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that on 4 September 2011, the followers of the Zion Christian Church of South Africa gathered for one of the largest Christian gatherings in South Africa, which happens twice each year at Zion City, Moria, near Polokwane;
(2) acknowledges this important congregation as it reinforces the messages of the ongoing struggle to work towards achieving a better life for all;
(3) welcomes the key messages delivered at this gathering, which spoke of leading lives of truth and being truthful, ethical conduct, calling for accountable and impartial leadership, highlighting youth development and conduct, the importance of heeding the wisdom, counsel and advice of parents, elders and leaders of the community, denouncing corruption, and ensuring that one does not live in the past, but, rather, looks ahead and moves forward to building a better quality of life for others; and
(4) believes that these impassioned pleas cannot fall on deaf ears as we all have a responsibility to entrench the values of ubuntu, contribute to the development and education of our youth, practice good governance, fight crime and continue to work for a better Africa and a better world.
Agreed to.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONGRATULATIONS TO VERONICA MAHLAKOLA, LIMPOPO'S FEMALE FARMER OF 2011
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that Veronica Mahlakola was awarded the Limpopo province's Female Farmer of the Year Award for 2011;
(2) further notes that she was also awarded the province's Top Entrepreneur Award in the export category;
(3) recognises that she started her farming venture under difficult circumstances and is now enjoying the fruits as a result of her hard work and dedication;
(4) acknowledges that she is a role model to young aspiring women seeking to pursue a career in agriculture, a career path usually associated with men; and
(5) congratulates Ms Mahlakola on receiving this most prestigious award and urges her to keep up the good work.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
Mrs J D KILIAN
FORMATION OF NATIONAL INTER-FAITH COUNCIL OF SOUTH AFRICA
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) welcomes the formation of the National Inter-Faith Council of South Africa, NIFCSA, which is an amalgamation of the National Religious Leaders Forum and the National Interfaith Leadership Council;
(2) notes that this culmination of dialogue that led to the formation of the National Inter-Faith Council of South Africa was in direct response to President Zuma's call for the religious community to partner with government to establish a cohesive and caring society, including an enabling environment for sustainable development;
(3) congratulates Archbishop Buti Tlhagale and Pastor Ray McCauley on being elected as interim co-chairmen of the organising committee that will oversee the finalisation of the constitution and the organisation of a plenary meeting of faith and religious leaders where a leadership structure will be elected;
(4) believes that such interfaith dialogue can only serve to promote mutual respect and understanding and, in so doing challenge ignorance and prejudice, allow for peace to prevail, resist domination, bring communities closer to living sustainably, respectfully and equitably, and enhance nation-building and social cohesion.
Agreed to.
Mrs J D KILIAN
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONGRATULATIONS TO CASTER SEMENYA ON WINNING SILVER IN 800 METRES CATEGORY OF 2011 ATHLETICS CHAMPIONSHIPS IN DAEGU
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that Caster Semenya won silver medal in the 800 metres category at the 2011 Athletics World Championships in Daegu;
(2) acknowledges her hard work and determination throughout a very difficult period since she won a gold medal in the 800 metres final at the 2009 World Championships in Athletics in Berlin, Germany;
(3) recognises her time of 1:56:35 as her quickest time of the season as well as her second fastest race of her career;
(4) further recognises her admirable commitment toward the sport and her positive contribution to South Africa on the world stage; and
(5) congratulates Miss Semenya on her excellent achievement and wishes her all the success for the upcoming Olympic Games in 2012.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
Mrs J D KILIAN
INTENATIONAL DAY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE OZONE LAYER
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that on 19 December 1994 the United Nations General Assembly proclaimed 16 September the International Day for the Preservation of the Ozone Layer, commemorating the date in 1987 on which the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer was signed;
(2) further notes that this day marks the signing of the Montreal Protocol, on which the member states recognise their obligations to take appropriate measures to protect human health and the environment against adverse effects resulting or likely to result from human activities which modify or are likely to modify the ozone layer;
(3) recognises that world-wide emissions of certain substances can significantly deplete and otherwise modify the ozone layer in a manner that is likely to result in adverse effects on human health and the environment;
(4) believes that all of us have a responsibility in terms of combating the effects of climate change; and
(5) calls upon developed and developing countries to set targets for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions as part of our responsibility.
Agreed to.
Mr M J ELLIS
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Tuesday, 13 September 2011 Take: 575
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CONGRATULATIONS TO BANYANA BANYANA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I hereby move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that Banyana Banyana have qualified for the London 2012 Olympics by drawing with Ethiopia 1-1 away this weekend;
(2) further notes that they won this match on aggregate following a home win against Ethiopia; and
(3) wishes Banyana Banyana good luck for the future.
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 15:56.
END OF TAKE
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