Hansard: Questions for oral reply : Peace and Security
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 25 Oct 2011
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 26 October 2011 Take: 50
START OF DAY
WEDNESDAY, 26 OCTOBER 2011
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 15:03.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
QUESTIONS – CLUSTER 1: PEACE & SECURITY - QUESTION 200: The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
START OF DAY
QUESTION 200
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY:
[First few minutes of sound missing]
... we maintain that because of some contractual confidences, we will not engage our employees through the public platform, but rather use internal processes as provided for by the regulations.
We would like to seek guidance on how the current Parliament would like do deal with questions that may have an impact on national security. In about 2001, former President Mbeki raised similar concerns in this House. The approach adopted then was to answer such questions in full in the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, that had the responsibility to inform the relevant members of Parliament, if they were satisfied with the response, or of any additional measures they were undertaking. This has been the convention followed pending the final formal response by this Parliament.
This is further compounded by the fact that while the initial questions may appear normal, the devil usually lies in the details of follow-up questions. I thank you, Mr Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr L S NGONYAMA
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Well, hon Speaker, I listened to the Minister attentively, but the Minister completely failed to give me the reasons that I have asked in my question. I do understand the issue that he is referring to of sensitivity on certain security information, but there is still the question of reason around a dismissal of an individual. So much is said in the newspapers, even about some proposal that was made to the said official and his refusal of it. The Minister is failing to give us – and satisfy this House – the reasons. It is also very important that the Minister understand that officials, including the Minister, are accountable to this House. We have a responsibility to articulate these reasons of dismissal of some of the very important officials who handle state security, and the Minister has failed in this regard.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Mr Speaker, I really fail to understand the concern raised by the hon Ngonyama, because I have been answering ... [Interjections.] I will repeat the question if you don't have the question from the ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members! Order!
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Firstly, Mr Njenje was not dismissed so we can't give a reason for dismissal. Mr Njenje was not dismissed by the State Security Agency. [Applause.] We agree, however, with the hon Ngonyama that we are accountable to this House. That is why we have come here to give the answers, and that is why we are also raising issues of national security. We have not refused to give an answer. I would just like to say that we believe we have answered, because the question said whether "the sudden departure", but there was no sudden departure of intelligence agent Gibson Njenje. Njenje is not an intelligence agent.
Before the end of his contract of three years, Mr Njenje was the head, was the leader, of that intelligence organisation. The likely departure of Mo Shaik and Jeff Maqethuka is linked to political interference and influence - I have answered that question. There was no political interference in that departure. He says: If so, why not – why aren't we interfering politically? We have no intention of interfering politically. "If so, what are the substantive legal and procedural reasons followed?" I have explained the procedure; that these members are appointed in terms of the Public Service Act and in consultation with the Minister of the Public Service and Administration. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr D J STUBBE
THE MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Mr D J STUBBE: Thank you, Speaker. The departure of Mr Njenje as Chief Director: Domestic Branch of the State Security Agency, SSA, has created leadership instability. It is now a common rumour that the director-general of SSA as well as the Chief Director: Foreign Branch are also leaving. Could the Minister tell us whether this is true, and what steps will he take to restore leadership stability in the agency? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Hon Speaker, firstly, Mr Njenje was not the chief director of the SSA. He was the head of the domestic branch appointed at a director general level. Secondly, regarding rumours about others leaving, I have answered that question. I my reply I said that it was just what it is: a rumour, and ours is not to engage in any rumour-mongering because we engage our members directly in the agency; we have direct access to them, other than having to engage in rumour-mongering. So that remains purely a rumour. Thank you.
Mr T W COETZEE
THE MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Mr T W COETZEE: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Minister, with due respect – and you know that I have great respect for you - I can't agree with what you said this afternoon. I think you must agree with me that owing to your absence – your regular absences from this country - that your relationships not only with the agencies, but also with your community have failed. We can also speak about terms of directors-general or heads of departments resigned or not resigned, but the fact is that Njenje has resigned or has taken a package. As I said, there are many ways of resigning, of making a person resign.
I now want to ask the Minister through you, hon Speaker: How will the Minister replace the knowledge, skills and experience of those that are going to leave the agencies, especially of security? How is he going to go about reinstalling the trust between them and the Minister? In addition, Minister, with all due respect, wouldn't you agree that it would be better for the security of the country that you, as the Minister step down, rather than losing this knowledge, skills and experience. Thank you, sir.
The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Thank you, hon Speaker. Let me remind the hon member Coetzee, as he is a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, that the function of the State Security Agency is to support and advise government. We have functions domestically, and we also have functions internationally in order to support our foreign policy. My absence from the country is never a holiday; rather, it is doing work for this government. So I don't understand, because this has been explained repeatedly to the members of the joint standing committee.
On the issues of skills and knowledge, of course within the intelligence community, we have the philosophy of intelligence officer for life where these members can be deployed, redeployed and recalled to do their work. So, so we value our current and past members who have worked within this community. I would like to point out at this stage, the hypocrisy, particularly of the DA. On 2 October 2009 when we made these appointments, the hon member who has just spoken, lambasted all three appointees at that particular time, accusing them of being partisan and incompetent. We did not respond in the media but we came to explain the capacities of these members in the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.
Again on 4 October the same year, the DA accused some of these members as being factionalists and of lacking expertise, the very same expertise, now hypocritically, they are saying is there. We always recognised that they did have expertise. As I have explained, we will always find a use for these members, for the country at the State Security Agency, that are leaving now. Some of your friends in the media, on 9 October were accusing the very same members of lacking skills and being involved in companies that they were no longer more involved with, which were being investigated by the state. I would like to say it is important that if you stand by the principle that as the State Security Agency we regard our members as intelligence officers for life, and we will always value their contribution and find ways of utilising them in our new democracy. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
QUESTION 176: The MINISTER OF POLICE / LM/ END OF TAKE
QUESTION 200: The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY
Question 176:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon Speaker. The backlog in the Biology Section and other sections of the SA Police Service's Forensics Science Laboratory were caused by a combination of the following factors: one, poor management, including failure to prioritise the processing of exhibits within the laboratory; two, failure by management within this environment to set targets and timelines for the purposes of managing the performance of the laboratories; three, the high rate of loss of experts and/or personnel in search of greener pastures; four, the downtime of instruments in the laboratory; and, five, the increase in the number of exhibits received by laboratories with limited expert capacity, making speedy processing impossible.
The divisional commissioner responsible for forensic services in the SAPS left the Police Service in July 2010, and Gen Phahlane was appointed divisional commissioner for this environment. One major-general and a brigadier were also exited from the service during this period.
As part of the turnaround strategy developed by the new divisional commissioner, managers were given specific targets and shorter timeframes within which the backlogs were to be eradicated during the 2010-11 financial year. Since July 2010, managers were also subjected to periodic performance reviews during which they had to account for the performance of their respective environments with regards to the eradication of backlogs and the processing of exhibits without delay.
Given the problems that existed with the previous management of the forensics services, it has been difficult to charge the actual suppliers. However, there are certain areas involving suppliers that are still being looked into and action may be taken based on what comes out of that process. I thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Thank you, Speaker.
IsiZulu:
Siyabonga Ngqongqoshe ngempendulo yakho. Kuyiqiniso ukuthi lo Baba owahamba wayenza ngamabomu ukuthi kube nomsebenzi osalele ngemuva kwa-forensic ngoba wayenza isitatimende sepolitiki. Emuva kokuphuma kwakhe yasala yalunga le ndaba.
English:
I have a follow-up question. With the interventions highlighted by the Minister in his response, what is the progress to date regarding the implementation of the turnaround strategy, and have there been findings about the suppliers that have been looked into, I think, since 2010? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Speaker and hon member, overall the backlog in the forensics field has declined with a whopping 66% from 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011. In essence, what has happened is that, even the turnaround time of 35 days has been met with the new situation, and we are very happy that there is great improvement in this very environment. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Thank you, and through you, Mr Speaker, Minister, when we look at what the laboratories have gone through – a situation that had many of us on the portfolio committee tearing our hair out – those backlogs were enormous and it has taken the work of someone of the calibre of Brigadier Shezi – who travelled with us on the study tour – to look at the DNA database legislation, to pull this down.
What I would like to know is, how on earth did it come about that people were hired who patently ran the place into the ground? Who was responsible for hiring them? Was nepotism at all a factor? Has it been weeded out, if it was?
During my visits there I wrote my name in the dust on boxes of multimillion-rand machinery. Those boxes still there over a year later when I went back, still with my signature on them. I would like to know if that type of mismanagement has now been weeded out and whether those who ordered and then abandoned that multimillion-rand machinery have been brought to book and been held responsible for that major mismanagement and expenditure. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon Speaker. Yes, hon member, things are being turned around there, as you are correctly pointing out, and, from time to time, the division would also interact with yourselves as the portfolio committee. We are as worried as you are about how this very sensitive environment of our work has been run in the past. That is why everything possible is being done internally. In terms of these internal processes and criminal procedures, even those who people got away with murder are being followed up.
But we are not going to leave anything to chance. We will ensure that, indeed, when people are employed to do a job, they do just that, and if they don't, consequences will be faced. Thank you so much.
Mr P J GROENEWALD
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Afrikaans:
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte Speaker ...
English:
Hon Minister, last week or the week before we heard that actually only 52% of criminals are detected, and that only about 31% of those people have completed documents or dockets that can be sent to the courts for criminal hearings. I want to ask the hon Minister ...
Afrikaans:
Agb Minister, siende dat 'n misdadiger basies 'n 85% kans het om weg te kom met misdaad in Suid-Afrika, en dat forensiese toetse 'n kardinale rol speel in die skuldigbevinding van misdadigers, wil ek weet op watter vlak van u prioriteitslys u hierdie probleem van die forensiese en biologiese toetse en alles wat daarmee saamgaan, geplaas het. Want elke keer ...
English:
... because that is the new buzz word. If we have problems, we say we have challenges. Hon Minister, we have had challenges since 1994, but I don't see those challenges being solved. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, you won't see those solutions if you are not in South Africa; if you are elsewhere. In South Africa you will see some of the progress made since 1994. The issue you are raising is a very important one, because you will recall that I have of late been placing emphasis on the need to go beyond apprehending criminals in our country, to also ensuring convictions. This area of the forensic science laboratory becomes very crucial in ensuring that, at the end of the day, we secure convictions.
The reasons for declining prosecutions vary, hon member. In some instances it would be because the police have not done a thorough enough job to ensure that the case is taken up. In other instances, decisions are taken at a prosecution level, which, after being taken, there is nothing that can be done. You can only wish that it continues. Indeed, we are turning the tide, hon member. You also ... no, don't say this; this is not going to help you. You are a witness to the fact that indeed we are turning the tide. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
IsiZulu:
Mnu V B NDLOVU:Ngiyabonga Somlomo, ngiyabonga nakumhlonishwa uNyambose ngempendulo. Okokuqala, mhlonishwa ukhulume ngokuphatha okungakuhle. Kuzothatha isikhathi esingakanani ukuthi la bantu baboshwe ngoba benze umsebenzi wahlehlela emuva. Okwesibili, umhlonishwa we-DA ubuze ukuthi kwakukhona yini ukuhlobana phakathi kwabo? Zikhona yini izihlobo ezaziqashiwe kulesekshini mhlonishwa?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon Speaker.
IsiZulu:
Mhlonishwa, Baba uGatsheni, cha asazi ukuthi ziyoboshwa nini. Kodwa esikwaziyo ukuthi abenza okubi bayalandelwa njengoba namhlanje sikhuluma ukuthi icala le-forensic selisebenza kahle noma siyabona la eliya khona, ngenxa yokuthi ubuholi bamaphoyisa buye bangenelela bathi akufakwe abantu abazosebenza.
Mhlawumbe kukhona ukuhlobana asazi kodwa nakhu ezinye izinto zisaphenywa, Boyabenyathi, asithembe ukuthi zizovela ngokuhamba kwesikhathi. Siyabonga.
QUESTION 188: The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES / TH(Eng&Afr)//nvs(Eng&Afr) / //NPM Checked by MK(IsiZ.) / END OF TAKE
QUESTION 176: The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 188:
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon Smuts. I must start by mentioning that the question refers to an opinion piece, which was written by Adv Ramatlhodi. I want to say that in that opinion piece the Deputy Minister expressed his political views. And, of course, he was exercising his right to freedom of expression and speech in this country - as a political leader.
I would like to request the Speaker - if he agrees – that the Deputy Minister Ramatlhodi responds to the question that has been raised, because it really has nothing to do with the work that we do in the Department of Correctional Services. Thank you.
Ms M SMUTS
THE MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Minister. We will not ask the hon Ramatlhodi to answer because the question was not directed at him. It is directed to Correctional Services. Hon member?
Ms M SMUTS: Sir, may I just place on record that I had, in fact, put this question, in the first place, to the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, and it is as a result of the intercession of the question's office that it went to this hon Minister. I personally would be delighted to debate this matter with my very good friend, the hon Ngoako Ramatlhodi.
It is not enough, hon Minister, to say that he was exercising his rights to free speech and giving his own political view. He is, as all of us are, sworn to uphold the Constitution of this country. He is moreover - under section 92 - as are you, hon Minister, under an obligation to act in terms of the Constitution.
The question therefore is whether the hon Minister is harbouring an anti-constitutionalist in her Ministry. This is a very serious matter, because what the hon Ramatlhodi argues is that our Constitution, as negotiated, immigrates power away from the executive and the legislature, and towards the courts and that the old order has built a fortified line in the courts.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I wonder whether we want to use this afternoon to deal with things that are irrelevant ... [Interjections.] ... because the Minister ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members! Order! Hon member, finish your point of order.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Speaker, the Minister has responded, and the matter must rest there. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
Ms M SMUTS: Hon Speaker, the hon Chief Whip of the ANC, as it happens of course, holds views distinctly similar to those of the hon Ramatlhodi in as much as he has told people inside this House and outside that they may not say that they can take the Secrecy Bill to the Constitutional Court if it does not comply with the Constitution.
Your mistake is exactly the same as that of the hon Ngoako. Mam, the question is: Are you harbouring an anti-constitutionalist in your Ministry? Do you accept or does he accept the separation of powers? If not he is a democratic centralist. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon Speaker and hon Smuts. In my view, there is not a single member of the ANC, the ruling party, who would not be loyal to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. We all are. [Interjections.] Not only have we pledged our loyalty to this Constitution, but, in fact, we actually are architects together with you of this very Constitution.
The fact that Comrade Ngoako has expressed his views about some elements or an aspect of this Constitution, does not mean that he must be construed as a person who is not loyal to the Constitution of the Republic. He is. However, I think that all of us have a right at one point or another to begin to engage, to examine, to assess, and to analyse the situation around us.
In fact, remember, by the way, that the Constitution was drafted in 1996 and it was a Constitution in which all of us were prepared to give and take - to give and take if only to heal the nation, if only to build the nation, and that is exactly what happened.
Therefore, if one of us today, together with you, identifies some elements of the Constitution to be problematic, there is nothing wrong with that. It is important to continue to examine, to continue to assess our surroundings and make sure that at some point we are in line with our needs in this country. [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, Speaker. Following your initial response, Minister, are you genuinely standing in this House and saying that there are times when you speak as a Minister and there are times when you do not speak as a Minister on the same issues which affect your own department? [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon member. The two of us come from here. [Interjections.] No, don't say, so what? You don't do that. [Laughter.] I need to remind you about something: yes, I am a Minister, and yes I am a Member of Parliament. But remember that I am, first and foremost, an activist of the ANC and it is my struggle credentials that have put me where I am today. That is why I am in this Parliament together with you - by the way. [Applause.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA
THE MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr M G P LEKOTA: Speaker, it is very important that all of us remember that we took the oath of office to uphold the Constitution, so we are here on those grounds. Now, to assert as a Minister that the Constitution is tilted against the enemies of this country is also an assertion that those of us who not only participated in its construction, but who also swore allegiance to it, are working with the enemies of this country. [Interjections.]
It is important that a department of government led by a Minister cannot be led by someone who believes that we are working with the enemies of this country - under this Constitution. We are here to defend this Constitution, led in its negotiations by the icon of this nation, Nelson Mandela.
This Constitution is not a sell-out Constitution. [Interjections.] Therefore, we need to know that those ...
The SPEAKER: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr M G P LEKOTA: We want to know that those who are leading government hold it ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Your time has expired, hon member. Hon member, take your seat! Your time has expired. Don't you understand simple English? [Applause.] Order, hon members! Order! Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members!
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: What is it that I must explain? Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: In case you did not hear ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please take your seat!
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: The point is that I will not repudiate what Adv Ngoako Ramatlhodi wrote in that opinion piece. For all I care to know, you, Terror, sitting there, you may probably agree ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: He is called "honourable". [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Terror Lekota ...
The SPEAKER: Please, take your seat, hon member. Thank you very much. That brings us to the end of questions.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, on a point of order, Mr Speaker: there is one more question to be asked. We have only had three follow-ups at this point in time.
Ms M SMUTS
THE SPEAKER
Ms M SMUTS: Hon Minister, it is true that we all gave and took whilst we negotiated, but there are some things that are utterly fundamental to this Constitution. And it is news to me what the hon Ngoako says, that it was a substantive and fundamental concession on the part of the ANC to accept the separation of powers. Is that your position? Is that the position of the Cabinet?
Moreover, he also says later in the same piece - and describes as a fatal concession - the desire of the liberation movement to create a society bereft of any form of discrimination, that is the right to equality. Was, therefore, the Bill of Rights also a concession? Is that the position of the Ministry and of the Cabinet? [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon Dene Smuts. I think that in my culture where I am, and where I come from, we all have a right to engage and debate issues. And we actually have a right to differ at times. I am sure this also applies to the DA. When you debate, you do not expect that you will all agree on a matter.
We all hold different views about different matters, but the most important thing is that Comrade Ngoako sitting there has pledged his allegiance and loyalty to the Constitution of the Republic. The fact that he is able to be introspective about some of the processes that we have gone through in this country, and the fact that he is able to be critical of some of the elements in the Constitution are his right to do so – and so is your right. [Interjections.]
Mr M G P LEKOTA: He is violating the Constitution.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: So is your right to express this ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, please! Order!
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Could the hon Terror ... Hon Lekota ...
Mr M G P LEKOTA: [Inaudible.]
The SPEAKER: Hon member, you are out of order. Please stop hackling!
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: If you are not a good listener, you will never learn. I listen to you because I want to learn from you, and I think it is important that you listen so that you can begin to appreciate other peoples' points of view. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 184: The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT / JN///tfm/// END OF TAKE
QUESTION 188: The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 184:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, in answer to the first part of the question, government has adopted a victim-oriented approach in the criminal justice system. The department has led the development of the Service Charter for Victims of Crime and the Minimum Service Standards for Victims of Crime within the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security cluster, JCPS.
The Minimum Standards were developed as a guideline for the implementation of the Victims Charter and therefore set the framework within which the various departments implement the Victims Charter. Led by the Department of Social Development, this Victims Charter is implemented as part of the Victims Empowerment Programme of the JCPS.
In answer to the second part of the question, I wish to point out that the department is still investigating the viability of the proposed victims' compensation in the more general sense. In this regard, the SA Law Commission did an investigation and made a report on a possible compensation fund for victims of crime. In terms of the legislation, the commission makes recommendations to the Minister of Justice for consideration on investigations it has carried out in terms of a programme approved by the Minister.
After studying the report under discussion and after obtaining advice, my predecessor was of the view that a number of critical aspects needed further investigation. I endorsed this approach, as did Cabinet. On that basis, I requested the commission to consider investigating the aspects in question and possibly to address them by means of a supplementary report. The commission has informed me that my request in this regard would indeed be considered by it in terms of their criteria for the inclusion of the new programmes. Thank you very much.
Mr J B SIBANYONI
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr J B SIBANYONI: Ngiyabonga, Bhungane, for the response that you have given. All I need to ask as a follow-up question is this: although there is section 300 of the Criminal Procedure Act in terms of which the court can order a convicted person to pay compensation, it is very rare that one finds the courts doing this. What can be done to encourage the courts at the moment, while we are still busy with the Victims Charter, to make use of the provisions of the Criminal Procedure Act? Is it possible that perhaps either the government or Parliament could have dialogue with the judiciary, while respecting their independence? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I think the hon Sibanyoni has already alluded to the possible approach to this matter. As we know, our courts are independent and subject to the Constitution and the law. So, when people make representations in courts, I am sure the courts will consider that, but their decisions are independent. Perhaps Parliament may consider making legislation to make it more direct as to what is intended to be done. Thank you.
Mr P J GROENEWALD
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, the hon Minister just said that he is still investigating, and is going to ask the commission for this and for that. But the fact of the matter is that the first thing a criminal does when he or she is caught is to call on his or her constitutional rights. In South Africa today, we get more and more situations where victims of criminals are becoming the criminals, and I will give you an example. You are asleep in your house at one o'clock in the morning and criminals come into your house trying to kill you. You close your bedroom door, they start breaking down the door, you shoot with your firearm through the door and you kill one criminal. You are then arrested because you tried to defend yourself! And the example I gave you is a real one.
We do not have the balance between the interests of victims and criminals and I want to ask you this: How quickly are you going to speed up the process, because it must also go further in looking into this matter?
Afrikaans:
Dit is onaanvaarbaar dat slagoffers van misdadigers die misdadiger word omdat hy of sy hom- of haarself beskerm het. Dit kan nie so aangaan nie. Dankie.
English:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, as I have indicated, the matter is before the Law Commission, and as soon as they give me a supplementary report, I will gladly report to Parliament, but I think we need to exercise patience. We have to go in accordance with the Constitution that all of us in the previous debate solemnly declared that we abide by. That is the Constitution of the land, so I will wait for the commission's report in this regard.
Mr G B D MACKENZIE
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mr G B D MACKENZIE: Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon Minister Radebe the following: Regarding victims who are being considered, such as Bishop Jack Tolo and the 70 SA Police Services members who have already been murdered this year, what is the Minister applying his mind to in terms of dealing with this problem, because they cannot speak for themselves?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Well, Speaker, I have already answered that question. I cannot add more to what I have said than to wait for the supplementary report of the commission which we have appointed.
Mrs D A SCHÄFER
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Mrs D A SCHÄFER: Mr Speaker, could the Minister please explain to Parliament why the report of the SA Law Reform Commission was buried in his department for seven years before being released in May this year, and whether we can expect the same kind of delay when he receives the updated report; and secondly, can he advise whether the Law Reform Commission has given him any indication of when they will be ready with their updated report, as requested by him? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Speaker, I cannot answer to what happened previously, but I think the report is a matter of public information at the present moment in time and we are dealing with it. When the supplementary report comes, we will further advise on what needs to be done. So, I have no idea what happened previously, but the important thing is that the information is in the public domain.
QUESTION 164: The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
/Robyn/ END OF TAKE
QUESTION 184: The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT
Question 164:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Speaker, the hon Maziya wants to know what I am doing about the condition of 1 Military Hospital. He furnished me with the details, about which concerns were also raised by the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission. Hon Maziya, the condition of 1 Military Hospital is as much a concern to me as it is to the interim commission, as it is to you. The 1 Military Hospital was actually given a prohibition notice as far back as 2002, former Minister Lekota. It has taken us this long to ensure that we can correct that situation.
We have started some work. [Interjections.] Do you want to say something?
The SPEAKER: Continue, hon Minister. I haven't stopped you from speaking.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you. We have finished the first part of our repairs to 1 Military Hospital. Unfortunately, the work was not done to the satisfaction of the department. We have since been in discussion with the national Department of Public Works, and they have agreed to come back and conclude the work. We hope that perhaps the work will be completed by the end of the 2011-12 financial year. From our side, what we have done is to reprioritise R40 million to make sure that this work is done.
To the hon Maziya, the problem that we have with the decaying infrastructure of Defence is that it is, indeed, not in our hands. It is in the hands of the national Department of Public Works. This is something that we have said over and over that we would like to take over. This is because we have the competence to do so; we have the engineers; we have the energy. We would like to take over this responsibility. We have been in discussion with the former Minister to ensure that this responsibility is handed over to us legally, so that we are able to repair our own infrastructure. This has not as yet happened. What I would like to request of the hon Maziya and the committee is perhaps to have discussions with the Portfolio Committee on Public Works to see whether we can't fast-track this process, because I am certain that if this was in the hands of the Defence Force, we would be able to look after our infrastructure better. Thank you.
Mr A M MAZIYA
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
IsiZulu:
Mnu A M MAZIYA: Ngiyabonga Ngqongqoshe, kuyajabulisa impela uma ufika esibhedlela e-1 Military uyabona impela ukuthi uma ungena ngamasango aso uyaphola ngendlela esisihle ngayo. Nempendulo yakho iyajabulisa Ngqongqoshe noma-nje sewubeka enye ingqinamba le esizoyifeza thina singamalungu eqembu elifundisanayo nekomidi lezokuvikela. Umbuzo olandelayo yilona othi uma sithatha imali le obufuna ukwenza izinto ezithile ngayo bese uzama ukuqedelela umsebenzi osele ngabe akuzukuba yinkinga lokho na? Futhi, akuzukukubangela yini ezinye ezinkinga ngokohlelo lwezimali na? Ngiyabonga.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much for your follow-up question, hon Maziya. By the time you meet with the Portfolio Committee on Public Works, you will understand that we actually hope to save money by taking over the responsibilities of Public Works and doing the repair work ourselves. Of course, we are going to have to reprioritise, which means that we are sacrificing R40 million from something else to put into the work that has not been done properly by the Department of Public Works.
However, this is a priority, because 1 Military Hospital is a flagship hospital for us. It is a place where we treat our Presidents, should they need any treatment, and it is a place where a lot of our people work under the section of military health services. So, we are willing to sacrifice the R40 million and reprioritise it to ensure that we are putting it in the right place.
Yes, I am putting a challenge to you, because, hon Maziya, making sure that we make the lives of our people a little better is not only my responsibility but yours as a Member of Parliament as well. So, in this case, I am asking you to help me make sure that we can make it better in the shortest time possible. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S J MASANGO
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Mr S J MASANGO: Speaker, we compliment the Minister on the intervention at 1 Military Hospital, which is in a state of collapse. However, the fact is that the entire SA Military Health Service appears to be in a state of collapse. This year's annual report tells us that the SA Military Health Service cannot even maintain a combat-ready conventional medical battalion. Minister, you may have a plan to save 1 Military Hospital, but the question is, since there are so many of them, whether you have a plan to save some of the SA Military Health Services. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon member, there are two things that you are putting together: one is the military infrastructure: the hospitals themselves, and the other one is the capability of the SA Military Health Service, SAMHS.
Well, I would like to take you on a tour of 2 Military Hospital, because we actually have managed to revamp that. It is looking very good right now, and we are hoping to keep it in that shape. However, we are running short of resources for the SAMHS, and this is a matter, again, that is in your hands, hon member. I am certain that you know, as we have said over and over again, that our biggest problem and biggest challenge is the budget. If we are able to overcome that, nothing is beyond us, and we would be able to make sure that we do what is necessary. Thank you.
Mr M A NHANHA
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Mr M A NHANHA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Minister, I accept your assertion that 1 Military Hospital is our flagship hospital. That is true, but to me, secondly, it is closest to my heart, because 1 Military Hospital, with the help of the hon Mluleki George, treated my late king, King Sandile of amaRharhabe in the Eastern Cape. For that, as an amaRharhabe, I will be forever grateful to your Ministry.
Secondly, hon Minister, with all the good work that you have already done in refurbishing 1 Military Hospital, could you provide us with details of the current cost of the refurbishment and confirm whether the amount spent to refurbish it to date is in line with the original tender budgeted for? Thirdly, this could be a side question, and feel free not to answer it, if you like: What is the current state of the seven-star wing, which was envisaged in 2002 at a cost of R6 million? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Speaker, I did not realise that the hon member would use this opportunity to try and ramp up the flagging reputation of Cope. [Interjections.] However, yes, 1 Military Hospital is a flagship hospital and, indeed, it has saved the lives of many of our upstanding citizens and amongst them is the late king of the amaRharhabe, King Sandile. Perhaps, yes, at that time it was due to the support of the hon Mluleki George here, but it is a government policy as it stands.
I am not able to give you the breakdown of the details that you are asking for because, as I indicated, the support of the infrastructure of the Defence Force is entirely in the hands of the national Department of Public Works. What I could do is ask for the breakdown and provide it to the portfolio committee. Thank you.
QUESTION 192: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim) /Mia (Eng)/ GG (Zul) Checked by MK /END OF TAKE
QUESTION 164: The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Question 192:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim): Mr Speaker, the matter pertaining to the visa application of His Holiness the Dalai Lama is sub judice... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim): ... after the IFP and Cope instituted a court proceeding in the Cape High Court on Monday, 18 October 2011. Therefore, the Minister is, regrettably, not in a position to reply until the pending court proceedings are concluded. Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Sorry, on a point of order, Mr Speaker ...
The SPEAKER: Please take your seat. I haven't given you the floor. Hon Deputy Minister, just to seek clarity: is the specific matter raised in the question what is before the court? If so, which court is it before?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim): Mr Speaker, it's before the Cape High Court and it is the matter concerning the visa application of the Dalai Lama. So, it does cover this question.
The SPEAKER: Thank you for the clarity.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, my knowledge as a lawyer of the sub judice rule is that it can only be of effect if the proceedings in this House have a direct effect on the proceedings of that court. Now, quite rightly, the proceedings in this House cannot have an effect on the court, which is an independent institution, and, we, ourselves, are an independent institution. So, it cannot be sub judice in that context.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon member. We have an undertaking by the Deputy Minister that the question is, indeed, before a court – the Cape High Court.
Now, according to the Rules, and in view of the undertaking given by the Deputy Minister, I am obliged to rule that the question cannot be proceeded with. This is in terms of Rules that this House has imposed upon itself. Rule 67 clearly states that no member shall refer to any matter on which a judicial decision is pending.
May I also say, Deputy Minister, before I move on, that should we be given the wrong information or should you give the wrong information to this House, you may be acting in contempt of Parliament - if it is the wrong information. This is just to advise you. But I would like to proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, this very much in line with the context with which you have just indicated, and I would like you to actually find out whether, in fact, papers have been served in this context, because judicial proceedings only take place once papers are served ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... and prior to papers being served, they are not before a court. s context.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: ... and prior to papers being served, they are not before a court. And I do not believe the papers have been served in this context.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, I wonder whether it is the duty of this Parliament to find out which papers were served when and where. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order, hon members!
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I rise on a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is absolutely necessary, because the Deputy Minister may be misleading the House, and we have a duty to find out whether or not the Deputy Minister is misleading the House.
The SPEAKER: I have already made a ruling on the matter in terms of Rule 67. I have also indicated to the Deputy Minister that, should we be have been given the wrong information, then that certainly would be contempt of this House. I would like to move on.
QUESTION 182: The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
QUESTION 192: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim)
Question 182:
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon Speaker, and thank you to hon member Ramatlakane. The answer to this question is no, Bosasa is not rendering the most generic services at most correctional centres. But they are rendering full food provisioning services, full maintenance of food services unit equipment, cleaning services of the food service units and training of offenders at eight management areas, namely Pretoria, Krugersdorp, Pollsmoor, St Albans, Durban Westville, Modderbee, Johannesburg and the Waterval management area.
Yes, we have a contract: HK14/2007-8 which commenced on 1 February 2009, and will expire on 31 January 2012. The estimated value at the time of awarding this contract was R839 million. The second one in this area is contract: HK5/2006, which commenced on 16 February 2007 and will expire on 15 February 2012.
With reference to the second aspect of your question, we are awaiting a court decision, hon Ramatlakane, on this matter. Of course, part three of the question will then depend on the outcome of that court process. Thank you.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you, hon House Chair, and thank you to the Minister for the response. Minister, I am sure that you must be concerned, as much as we are concerned particularly about the money which you say you are awaiting a decision on. I just want to find out what the monthly payment to Bosasa is, with regard to these contracts that you are talking about.
Secondly, we all know that the late Director-General Petersen was fired from the department as a result of the particular tender. After he was fired, the tender was then awarded to him in that he should continue. Bosasa then received that contract. You should be very worried about the linkages and the connectivity of the people who are in directorship of Bosasa. I am worried about the slowness and the continuation of this long relationship with Bosasa and, of course, the connection of the directors like Njenje and Watson, who were part of that. Aren't you going to consider taking other steps to make sure that the relationship with Bosasa is terminated?
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon member. I have just reported to Parliament now – just informed you - that, in fact, the first contract commenced on 1 February and is due to expire on 31 January 2012. Secondly, I cannot say that I want to terminate the contract before the court processes have been completed. The courts will decide on this matter, and once they have decided we will then comply. Thank you.
Mr J SELFE
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr J SELFE: Thank you, Chairperson, and I thank the Minister for the reply. Minister, you know very well that these are highly controversial awarding of contracts. The contracts and the awarding of the contracts have been the subject of an investigation by the Special Investigating Unit, the SIU. We have had a report from the SIU. I am also aware that your department got a legal opinion that said it should not oppose the review proceedings that were launched in the North Gauteng High Court into the awarding of this contract.
I would really like to know from the Minister why the department ignored that legal advice to go along with the review proceedings. Secondly, because this doesn't only concern the late Vernie Petersen's role, I would like to know whether she is prepared to investigate the role played by the former Minister of Correctional Services in the awarding of these contracts, and if not, why not.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Selfe, you are aware that indeed you have just made reference to the SIU report, and you know exactly where that process is. So, it's not as if we are keeping the SIU report under wraps. There is a process under way which seeks to unpack and investigate each one of the allegations which is mentioned in the SIU report. That process is not with us in the Department of Correctional Services.
Obviously, if a need arises for further investigations to be conducted against people who are in the department, the police will have to do that and not the Minister of Correctional Services.
Lastly, I should say that yes, you are saying the contracts were awarded in a very suspicious or controversial manner, but that is your opinion and it is a view that is expressed in the SIU report as well. One of the reasons why that matter is currently under investigation is precisely because of the allegations contained in the SIU report. Beyond what we have done – the work that we have done with the SIU - I don't think, personally, at a departmental level that we have the capacity to conduct that kind of investigation, including an investigation against the former Minister.
Mrs M N PHALISO
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mrs M N PHALISO: Hon Minister, has the department received any value for money for this contract? Have any skills been transferred, as a result of the outsourcing of the nutrition services? I thank you, hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Chair, my sincere apologies, could the hon member repeat the question please?
Mrs M N PHALISO: Hon Minister, has the department received any value for money for this contract? The second supplementary question is, have any skills been transferred as a result of the outsourcing of the nutrition services? Those are the two questions.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon Phaliso. The answer is yes, there is value for money that has been spent on these contracts, in that if you look at the numbers of people who have acquired skills from the training that has been provided by Bosasa in the various centres, they suggest that indeed it was worthwhile.
I think we should separate these issues. How it was acquired should be one matter, and it should be treated differently from the benefits of this project for the department. I think that a number of inmates have benefited from the training that was granted by Bosasa. [Applause.]
Mr G B D McINTOSH
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr G B D McINTOSH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. May I first of all congratulate the Minister on her frank and open answering of questions, particularly her first reply. We have three months, according to what the Minister says, until the one contract expires at the end of January 2012. What I'm interested in is: What process is in place to invite new tenders, and when will they be awarded?
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon McIntosh, I'm surprised that you are even mentioning the awarding of a new tender for this kind of work. I'm sure you heard me before calling on the department to take responsibility for its catering services. So, what is currently going on now in the department is that we are doing an assessment to determine how many centres are ready to have their own catering services. If they are not ready, how much time are we giving to those centres? Is it going to be months or a year? That will assist us in preparing our inmates to do their own cooking. After all, these are things which were done in the past.
I must also say that we are actually in a similar position as the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. Portfolio committee members have made an observation that most of our kitchens are in a state of dilapidation. Therefore, we require the Department of Public Works to come in and do some renovations. So, to a certain extent, having these people on site doing the catering for us has been very useful. Thank you.
QUESTION 26: The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES /UNH/ END OF TAKE
QUESTION 182: The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 26:
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Ngwenya. The department is currently engaging National Treasury with regards to a separate allocation of budget of the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services.
The Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services is not a department or constitutional institution, or listed as a public entity in terms of the Public Finance Management Act. So, the Auditor-General of South Africa audits it as part of the Department of Correctional Services, and it follows all the Department of Correctional Services' policies and procedures for administration.
The office of the inspecting judge is treated like other branches within the Department of Correctional Services. When funds are allocated, the available budget for programme administration is considered and any inflation adjustments, as indicated by the National Treasury, are taken into account.
I should say that during any financial year there are internal budgetary processes followed to allow cost-centre managers to register their budget shortfalls or surpluses. And within available funds, any request for additional funding will be considered.
In 2008-09, for instance, this office reported a shortfall of R800 000 on goods and services; and R233 000 on capital and additional funds, as requested, and these were allocated. This past year, 2010-11, a shortfall of R850 000 on capital works was reported and additional funds as requested were allocated.
So, it should be noted that we depend on the consultations between ourselves and National Treasury to determine the processes of budgeting for the office of the inspecting judge. Thank you.
Ms W NGWENYA
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Ms W NGWENYA: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, when is the term of office of the current inspecting judge coming to an end, and are there plans to extend his term of office? If yes, why; and if no, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, hon member. The term of office of the current inspecting judge ends on 31 October 2011, in a week's time actually. There are no plans to extend his contract. There has been a process in place to appoint a new inspecting judge, and the President has since appointed Judge Tshabalala as the new inspecting judge. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr J SELFE
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, thank you very much, and I thank the Minister. The Minister would be aware that this report contains a number of recommendations also about the judge. Amongst those was the filling of vacancies, the alignment of the budget, the long periods of suspension of officials, and so on and so forth.
One of the strategic objectives or priorities contained in that report was to produce a White Paper on Remand Detention. Now in this year's annual report, it is reported that the actual performance of the department includes the widely consulted White Paper on Remand Detention, and widely consulted with the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services. In point of fact, the portfolio committee has never been consulted about the White Paper on Remand Detention. I would like to know from the Minister why it was not consulted; and whether this does not, in fact, constitute contempt of Parliament? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Selfe, my sincere apologies, but I seem to remember - and if I am wrong, please correct me - that I led a team that briefed the portfolio committee, on, one, the amendments to the Act; and, two, that there was indeed a White Paper on Remand Detention, which was in the process of being drafted at the time by an interdepartmental task team. I seem to remember that very well. I may not remember the dates now, but I seem to remember that I am the one, in fact, who appeared before the portfolio committee to report on that matter. Thank you.
Mr E M SULLIMAN: Hon Chair, somebody pressed my button by mistake. I don't have a follow-up question. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): There seems to be a lot of mischief going around. Thank you. The next question has been asked by the hon M S Motimele to the Minister of Defence ...
Mr J SELFE: Hang on, Chairperson, I don't believe that we have exhausted all the supplementary questions yet.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): I think we have. You had your turn.
Mr J SELFE: Yes, but I am asking for another turn.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Alright, you may have another turn seeing that Mr Sulliman hasn't pressed his button.
Mr J SELFE: I did press my button.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): No, he hasn't ...
Mr J SELFE: Oh, alright. That's fine.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): ... but his name appears here.
Mr J SELFE: Chairperson, through you, thank you very much indeed to the Minister for that reply. It is indeed so that the Minister appeared before the portfolio committee to brief it on the amending Bill. But the annual report talks about a widely consulted White Paper on Remand Detention. I have never seen the widely consulted White Paper on Remand Detention and, as far as I know, neither have any of my colleagues on the portfolio committee.
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Please, there is a White Paper on Remand Detention. Could I just say, as you are aware, hon Selfe, we set up a team; that team produced the White Paper; that White Paper on Remand Detention went through a Cabinet process; and that paper was referred to Parliament. That White Paper was referred to Parliament along with the amendments to the Act.
Now, I would have expected - and I am sure this matter is a matter that you can check with your team when you are at your portfolio committee meeting – that then there would have been a process of consultation from the side of the portfolio committee. But from our side, you know very well that on the day – in fact, that day we came from Cabinet – I came here and presented to you the fact that the Act was now ready for you to process and that the White Paper was also ready, which was as a result of ... of course, broad consultation amongst government departments at the time.
So regarding that process of consultation with civil society, I would have expected that it would have been a process that would have been undertaken by the portfolio committee. [Interjections.] I hear somebody saying study group. Of course things go to the study group, but I know that I appeared before the portfolio committee. Thank you.
QUESTION 168: The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS / AZM MNGUNI/VM/END OF TAKE
QUESTION 26: The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES
Question 168:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Motimele, the answer to this question is a very detailed one and I will give it over to you at the end of this session. However, within the time available to me I would like indicate that we do have plans to revitalise our ageing materiel and car fleet in order to ensure efficiency and effectiveness of the defence operations within the four services of the Defence Force.
Within the army, for instance, a detailed Scamp - Strategic Capital Acquisition Master Plan - is in place, although only partially funded. As far as operational vehicles are concerned, there is a project in place to replace the ageing Casper and Mamba fleets. For your own edification, Chairperson, Casper is not the friendly ghost; it is an armoured vehicle.
Another major renewal programme addresses the supply support of cargo vehicles' system and, as far as the light-support vehicles - buses and bakkies - are concerned, in the last year we set aside R166,8 million for this, and in the current year we have set aside R74 million for this.
In the Air Force we are concentrating on a number of areas in which we would like to ensure that there is renewal. The first area is the very, very important person, VVIP, capacity; the second area is the light air transport system; the third area is maritime surveillance, seeing that we have adopted a maritime strategy; the fourth area is the air-traffic control system in support of command control capability and the radar systems. The last area is the ground-support system, that is the refuelling vehicles, fire engines, rescue vehicles, etc.
We also have a detailed plan for the navy, and this is available for you to peruse. We have another detailed plan which is in place for the SA Medical Service, Sams. A number of issues need our attention and these have to do with the hospitals – which we have dealt with right now - and the facilities that support the hospitals. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr M S MOTIMELE: Hon Chair, the Minister has sufficiently answered my question. There is no follow-up. Thank you.
Mr D J MAYNIER
Mr M S MOTIMELE
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the hon Minister has a well-earned reputation for turning the Department of Defence and Military Veterans into a state within a state. The previous Minister of Defence routinely replied to parliamentary questions concerning the Defence Force's strategic capital acquisition master plan, Scamp.
We were provided with details concerning the Defence department's capital acquisition projects, but not any more. The Minister now claims in a reply to a recent written parliamentary question that the department is not at liberty to release this information to the public as it may compromise the security plans of the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, and also generate undue speculation within the country and the industry. The fact is that information was available on the Scamp, but now it is not. Would the Minister tell us what has changed?
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much, hon Chair. What has changed is that traditionally the Portfolio Committee on Defence respects the integrity of the defence systems of this country. Traditionally, the Portfolio Committee on Defence has acted in the national interests of the country. We do have now people who are more interested in their own profile - that is what has changed.
However, we do have in place now the Joint Standing Committee on Defence at which all of this information is available. This information is available in full to the Portfolio Committee on Defence, and it actually works in the interests of the country that we have a portfolio committee that has the integrity to go through most of the matters that we are dealing with, which are operational, so that we are assisted in ensuring that we can jointly secure the country. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Thank you. Question 196 ...
Mr M A NHANHA: Sorry, Chairperson, I had pressed the "to talk" button.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Okay. The hon ... Nhanha from Cope.
Mr M A NHANHA
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Mr M A NHANHA: From Cope, indeed, Chair. [Laughter.] Thanks, Chairperson. Firstly, I would like to raise with the Minister the issue I have. If I heard you correctly, you seemed to be generalising that the committee is full of people that are unpatriotic. For the record, I am patriotic, Minister.
Secondly, Minister, on the ageing fleet of our military: at what cost would you estimate that we as the country would spend to refurbish the fleet and the materiel of Defence? Also, after having spent so much money and you are satisfied that indeed we have a well-equipped military, what is it that you would put in place to ensure that we don't fall into the same situation we find ourselves in today in which we are sitting with equipment and fleet 35 to 40 years old? Thank you
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much, hon member, and for the record: yes, I want to take that statement back. I did not intend to imply that all of you are unpatriotic; some, however, I am not sure of.
The point I wanted to make, which is a very important one, is that in all countries of democracy there are certain areas, such as defence, which are a national responsibility. They are not party-political matters, but matters of national responsibility. And that is what I wanted to point out that has changed in this Parliament since 2002/09. Then we did not have this. We had very good co-operation between ourselves, as multiparty Members of Parliament, with the Ministry of Defence.
And how would I want to make sure that what happened in the past does not happen again is because I am depending on you to assist the Ministry of Defence to ensure that whatever we get now for the Defence Force, you will be there, first, to approve it; second, to make sure that we have the resources; and, third, to make sure that jointly with me you monitor that it is put to good use.
I am unable unfortunately, hon member, to give you the totality of the figure of what we would need to recover and make sure that we can revitalise our fleet. Most of what we have - our vehicles and our aircraft - are ageing. We really need a great deal of injection of resources into this, because this is where we experience most of our difficulties in ferrying around our personnel and in ferrying around those people who need to be ferried from one place to another. The fleet that we have is really truly aged. We need to make sure that we can direct the resources, and, with your help and perhaps when we have had the opportunity to give you a breakdown of what we have in the review, you will be able to support us in this venture. Thank you.
Mr G B D McINTOSH
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
Mr G B D McINTOSH: Chairperson, I want to assure the Minister of Defence that if she thinks of me as being unpatriotic, it does not worry me at all because Gen Magnus Malan also thought I was when I was an MP in this House previously. [Interjections.]
At the moment there is a counter-piracy conference going on in Cape Town, and I would like to ask the hon Minister whether she has included on this list the requirements that we would need not only for us but perhaps for Southern African Development Community countries as well in order to deal with this very serious and growing global problem of piracy at sea.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you very much, hon member. The difference between what Magnus Malan meant as unpatriotic and what a democratic state would mean as unpatriotic are very different.
Yes, here is a counter-piracy conference going on. It starts on Thursday. If the hon member has time, it would be very good that he went to it because we will be giving a very good presentation on the work that we are doing.
We have taken time, hon member, to study the issue of piracy. We indicated that at some point it seemed a very distant problem – a very distant threat - to us, until we started counting the cost of what it would mean to us and our economy and the economies of the countries around us. We have now put in place a SADC strategy to deal with piracy. We presented it to the SADC heads of state in Angola a few months ago, and it was adopted. It is now binding on all the countries of the SADC region to ensure that this strategy is funded and that it is supported.
We offered to host the first centre for this strategy, and we are very glad that we are having the conference here. We have budgeted for the fleet that we would need to support the strategy, because it is very important for us. We have also had to reprioritise this, because it was not on our agenda, but we are fully covered for the current year. Thank you.
QUESTION 196: The MINISTER OF POLICE / SP/GC / END OF TAKE
QUESTION 168: The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Thank you, Minister. Question 196 has been posed by the Rev Meshoe, who is not present, to the Minister of Police. Mr S N Swart will take up the follow-up question on his behalf.
Question 196:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, I was about to ask where the Reverend was. The requested information is not readily available as the selling of the confiscated drugs could relate to various crimes that could have been committed, such as theft, corruption, dealing with prohibited drugs, etc. The requested information, hon member, will be obtained from provincial commissioners. When it has been obtained, it will be readily available for you. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Chair. Well, then we should possibly hold over this issue. But could I just ask the Minister the second part of the question about the issue of the suspended officers; could I ask him just a general question then as to whether it's possible to speed up disciplinary processes when police officials are suspended? Obviously, it's very important that we finalise those matters, particularly where police officials are suspended with full pay? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, are you asking in relation to this question or are you asking generally?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): I think he is asking another question. If you do not wish to answer that question, it can be requested to be put on the Question Paper another time.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Let me think how to answer you. Let me just apply my mind on how to answer you. I will come back to you when I'm ready. Thank you. [Laughter.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the Minister is welcome to hold it over, if he prefers. Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
Mr S N SWART
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Thank you, Chair. Minister, 11 bags of narcotics seized at O R Tambo International Airport were taken to the Pretoria Forensic Laboratory and promptly disappeared. The value was over R50 million, and this happened after the laboratory had installed CCTV cameras. My knowledge is that the person who was allegedly identified by CCTV tapes taking bags of drugs – I have the dates – and who works for the laboratory in an administrative capacity, has since been promoted and has allegedly purchased a house valued at R3 million. Now, have arrests been made in connection with the missing drugs? If not, it is quite obvious that this matter really isn't being effectively investigated. And is there any reason I should not call in, for example, the Special Investigating Unit, to do the job for you?
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Sengathi uthanda izindaba, mhlonishwa. [Uhleko.]
English:
The fact of the matter is that it's not one, but six people. The matter was then taken to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who declined to prosecute. Thereafter, the police ... [Interjections.] ... Why are you asking me? Do you think I'm a prosecutor? [Interjections.] I'm not a prosecutor.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Please be quiet. Let the Minister finish.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I'm not the Director of Public Prosecutions. So, that's what happened. After that, internally, the police put in place their own disciplinary processes. So from the point of view of those people being charged, that's what happened. Thank you very much.
Ms A VAN WYK
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms A VAN WYK: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Minister. Minister, the chain of evidence is an important aspect of the criminal justice system. Yet, we find during our oversight visits that there is a lack of control of SAPS 13 stores and the evidence that is kept in those stores, especially in as far as drugs are concerned. National instructions are not followed in dealing with drugs at the police station level. In your opinion, Minister, what can be done to improve the situation and to minimise the associated risks with these SAPS 13 stores.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, hon member, I thought, as an expert in the field, you were going to help me by telling me what needs to be done. But in this instance - as you say that there are national instructions - what we have said, from the point of view of the national commissioner's office, is that that should be followed up. This is because what has been happening is that national instructions are issued to local levels without any follow-ups. So we wanted that to be followed up. It's not just the communication of national instructions. But I'm sure you can come up with other suggestions, won't you? [Laughter.]
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you, hon Chair. I thought that the Minister was requesting that this question stand over because of certain information that he did not have readily available. I agree with the Minister that this question stand over because there are important elements of the question that we could probably benefit from in the Minister's report at the next sitting. I think that at the moment we are going to be asking what the Minister is not going to be able to provide. It's only fair that we agree with the Minister that this question stand over and be posed again later.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, when you don't have a question you must say that you don't have a question. There is no question to answer. It was a very general question by – in fact, ebezithathela ichance nje [he was just taking a chance] - the hon Swart over there. But, if you have a question, ask the question.
QUESTION 3: The MINISTER OF POLICE///NPM// GM(ed)/END OF TAKE
QUESTION 196: The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 3:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon member, the answer is no. As you would know, the President has announced the commission of inquiry. So the answer is no. Thank you.
Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, the Minister will be aware that Gen Anwa Dramat, Head of the Hawks, undertook in a letter dated the 27 July 2011 and addressed to the hon Themba Godi, chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, that two officials would approach Swedish's National Anti-Corruption Unit and Britain's Serious Fraud Office to follow up on the allegations relating to arms deal corruption. Would the Minister tell us why this undertaking was not honoured by Gen Anwa Dramat?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon member. I will be very kind to you, hon member, and won't say that you are unpatriotic. What you forgot to say is that that interaction happened, and the letter was written, before the commission I'm talking about. This commission supersedes whatever is happening, including yourself. If you had any other thing, you would then be going through this commission. It is a matter of time; it happened before. Thank you very much.
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. I don't actually have a follow-up question. The Minister has answered very clearly. I would have expected that the hon Maynier would have listened to him, and not bother to try to ask further questions. So I just want to say that we are quite satisfied with the answer from the Minister. Thank you. [Applause.]
QUESTION 174: The MINISTER OF POLICE / C.I//A N N(ed) / END OF TAKE
QUESTION 3: The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 174:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Act, Act 6 of 2010, does not allow for a single, integrated fingerprint database. The department is in consultation with the Department of Home Affairs and other departments within the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JPCS, cluster, developing mechanisms to ensure the exchange and sharing of information critical to an effective and efficient criminal justice system. I would refer the hon member to the Portfolio Committee on Police, as they would be able to give the hon member clarity on the deoxyribonucleic acid, DNA, legislative process. I thank you.
Adv A H GAUM
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Adv A H GAUM: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, given the importance of physical evidence from the crime scene in establishing a link with the criminal or criminals, in particular in the absence of witnesses, it is of paramount importance that the police get access to the vast fingerprint database of the Department of Home Affairs and that a comprehensive DNA database is developed as soon as possible.
By when does the Minister aim to complete these consultations with the Department of Home Affairs and other departments to establish access to the relevant fingerprints? Secondly, what is the Minister's timeframe for having such DNA legislation - that, I assume, will make provision for a DNA database - operational? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon member. The consultations are continuing with the Ministry of Home Affairs and generally within the JPCS cluster. But there are other things, as I said, with regard to the portfolio committee in terms of the processes of this Act in particular. Remember, this is an Act of which part was passed, and the other part still has to undergo the process. I am not the spokesperson of the portfolio committee, but I know that together with the department they have been doing study tours to ensure that this process continues. Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Thank you, Chair. Minister, on our trips, both as the portfolio committee and individually, to police stations around the country, we have discovered that there is virtually no knowledge at all about the so-called fingerprint legislation – the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill - and the ability that that Bill gives to our police to forward the fingerprints that they don't recognise from the police database to other databases, such as that of Home Affairs. There is no knowledge of it at the stations we visited.
Could you explain how it is that at the station level there is no knowledge of what was, for us, a very gruelling process to get this legislation through and passed? Also, have the relevant regulations been drawn up yet? I know, for example, when it comes to the Second-Hand Goods Bill, which we passed here about three years ago, that they haven't even finished the regulations yet. It feels to me as though the legislation we work day and night to pass never gets past these doors. And I am finding that extremely disconcerting. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon Chair. Part of the job of public representatives like you is to inform the public. [Interjections.] It is your job to do that much as it is the job of everybody else. Generalising about the knowledge ... You see, the problem is that when you talk, we listen, but you must also listen. We will give you some cold water here to cool down, because there is a problem with the temperature. [Laughter.]
They will know in due course. But, firstly, we would want to know who does not know in the police stations and at which police stations. Generally, people are going to know about the process as it unfolds, and there is no rush at all. If you rush such an Act, you are going to leave a lot of people outside the process, and you in particular will come back and make a lot of noise here about people not being consulted. [Interjections.] So, people are going to be consulted. [Interjections.] The very reason ... You must listen here. The very reason that you undertook study tours says that the process is at a particular level, and it will continue. Thank you very much.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: It's just another Bill you haven't started as yet!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon Kohler-Barnard, there is no need to scream across the floor.
QUESTION 198: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim) /Mohau//Mia /END OF TAKE
QUESTION 174: The MINISTER OF POLICE
Question 198:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim): Hon Chairperson, I think this question also relates to the Dalai Lama question. Earlier we said that the matter was sub judice, and the Speaker gave a ruling on the matter. So I think that also applies to this question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Thank you, Deputy Minister. The Speaker has indeed ruled that the matter is sub judice.
The next question is Question 169, which has been posed by Mr Lekgetho to the Minister of ...
Mr G B D McINTOSH: With respect, Madam Chair, I wish to ask a supplementary question, but it has nothing to do with the sub judice element at all. I think you will realise that when you hear the question.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Regarding the question that has been put on the Question Paper, the Deputy Minister has said that it is sub judice, according to the Speaker's ruling. So, I don't know what question you want to ask, but it would appear to me that it's another question.
Mr G B D McINTOSH: Madam Chair, it won't relate to the visa, and then you can make a ruling, Madam Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): All right, ask the question, hon McIntosh.
Mr G B D McINTOSH: My question to the hon Minister is: Is the hon Minister aware that the Han Chinese majority of the People's Republic of China are at the moment creating a classic colonial situation in the province of Tibet?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms F Hajaig): Hon McIntosh, that has nothing to do with this question.
We will now go on to the next question, which is Question 169. And, next time, hon McIntosh, don't abuse the chance that you are given to speak when you know that the question isn't related.
QUESTION 169: The MINISTER OF POLICE / ARM//A N N(ed) / END OF TAKE
QUESTION 198: The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION (Mr E I Ebrahim)
Question 169:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, section 51(1) of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1997 provides for a minimum sentence of imprisonment for life in respect of a person convicted of an offence referred to in part 1 of schedule 2 of the said Act, which includes, inter alia, murder when "the victim was a law-enforcement officer performing his or her function as such, whether on duty or not". The courts will take this into account in all cases where a police official is a victim of murder. Thank you, Chair.
Mr G LEKGETHO
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr G LEKGETHO: Thank you very much, Chair and hon Minister. Minister, the section that you have mentioned is not sufficient as a deterrent. Following and emanating from the summit on the killing of policemen and policewomen this year, what measures will be put in place to reduce the killing of police members? Thanks.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chair, perhaps one could understand the expression made by the hon member here because this matter of police killings has been of concern to most of the people in our country. Because of that, as we said, we really understand the sentiments expressed.
The hon member would know that we had consultations with many sectors of society from different backgrounds in order to come up with mechanisms to deal with this scourge of police killings. And as a result of that, a 10-point plan was developed, which, amongst other things, looks at the situation of the police both physically and psychologically.
The 10-point plan looks at the additional role that the government has to play. It looks at the role of civil society. The contributions made at that very summit helped us to understand the significance of the matter, as well as the need to highlight it to the public. We think that we should and we will always continue to highlight it because it becomes a problem for the rest of us if those who are charged with the responsibility of protecting us are targeted by criminal elements in our society. Thank you.
Mr M M SWATHE
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr M M SWATHE: Thank you very much, Chairperson, and thank you very much, Minister, for your answer with regard to the question. The killing of police officers on duty is a painful loss and a serious threat to the state. Minister, what action have you taken to address this problem? Why is this problem continuing? When are we going to see an end to the fear of our police being targeted because this is a serious threat? People are now starting to have a problem with our police members being targeted. Aren't you going to make sure that you appoint a commission to investigate what is actually happening? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks again, hon member, for your concern. But, no, we wouldn't need a commission of inquiry because most of these killings happen when police respond to criminal activities. There has been research done on this matter over a period of time. What becomes important is that the outcome of the summit, which, as I've said, included a lot of people, places an obligation on everybody, including the police themselves.
You would have noticed that in recent months most police members used very bulletproof vests, which we have in the past have been more than sufficient. It is just that people sometimes have taken things for granted. But there is a whole host of comprehensive programmes emanating from the summit. I must take this opportunity, Chairperson, to thank everybody who participated - from politicians to academia and everybody else, because it really indicated that society is taking this matter very seriously. Thank you.
Mr M A NHANHA
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr M A NHANHA: Thanks, hon Chairperson. Indeed, Minister, I can bear testimony to your assertions that the police these days do wear bulletproof vests, and we hope this will decrease the number of fatalities. But, besides that, hon Minister, would you consider introducing a debate that will, it is hoped, end up with an amendment to our Constitution so that a suspect or criminal found guilty of having killed a police officer faces a firing squad?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks, hon Chair. Are you serious, hon member?
An HON MEMBER: Yes!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Are you serious?
Mr M A NHANHA: Chairperson, I am not here to play.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, hon member, this would be difficult with the Constitution we have. Firing squads! Heyi, ngenye indaba leyo! [Hey, that is another issue!]. Thank you.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
The MINISTER OF POLICE
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, I think that this issue about police killings is an issue that we, as South Africans and parliamentarians, should all agree must remain condemned. The police are the defenders of our democracy, so this is one issue that we must stand together to condemn.
The question I want to pose, Minister, relates to the training of the police. Are you accelerating the so-called streetwise training for the police as a way to try to minimise this particular problem?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks, Chair, thanks to the hon Ramatlakane who has raised these points and concerns – even in the past - about the killing of the police. As you would know, hon member, this is ongoing. This is really similar to a road to social progress - it's always under construction. On issues of training, you can never say that you have arrived. It has to continue all the time, not only from the point of view of some examples you have made, but generally. Up-skilling the police is always important. The very fact that you had to make a call urging the police to wear bulletproof vests says something about very fundamental issues. That says something about the police protecting themselves, because that is their duty much as it is their duty to protect themselves. Thank you very much.
NOTICES OF MOTION: Mr G R MORGAN / GG//GM(ed) /END OF TAKE
QUESTION 169: The MINISTER OF POLICE
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr G R MORGAN: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House –
(1) debates whether the legal international trade in rhino horn should be permitted; and
(2) comes up with recommendations to government in this regard.
Mr P VAN DALEN
Mr G R MORGAN
Mr P VAN DALEN: Madam Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House –
(1) debates the pay structures of executive-level employees of state-owned enterprises; and
(2) comes up with recommendations to ensure that the taxpayer gets value for their money in this regard.
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA
Mr P VAN DALEN
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the setting up of an inclusive demarcation board and processes that are capable of deracialising and integrating communities.
Ms M V MAFOLO
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA
Ms M V MAFOLO: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates mechanisms of dealing with challenges around special pensions.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
Ms M V MAFOLO
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House discusses the corruption around the Fifa World Cup tickets in the Free State department of sport.
Mr M A NHANHA
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
Mr M A NHANHA: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the need to focus urgently on the disastrous consequences of the continued practice of appointing unqualified or lowly qualified personnel as school principals in disadvantaged areas.
Mr N D DU TOIT
Mr M A NHANHA
Mr N D DU TOIT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House –
(1) debates the effectiveness of compliance measures by the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries to protect our country's fish stock; and
(2) comes up with recommendations to improve the situation.
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN
Mr N D DU TOIT
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: House Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates mechanisms to strengthen our maritime and air borders to provide protection from illegal immigrants.
MOTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
///tfm/// END OF TAKE
NOTICES OF MOTION: Mr G D SCHNEEMANN
CELEBRATION OF DIWALI, "THE FESTIVAL OF LIGHT"
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that on 26 October 2011, the Hindu community celebrates one of the biggest and most important festivals for Hindus, the festival of Diwali or Deepavali;
(2) further notes that while Diwali or Deepavali is popularly known as the "festival of light", the most significant spiritual meaning is "the awareness of the inner light" and symbolises the victory of good over evil; and
(3) extends its well wishes to the Hindu community during their celebrations.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
CITY OF CAPE TOWN AWARDED TITLE OF WORLD DESIGN CAPITAL 2014
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that today, 26 October 2011, the City of Cape Town was awarded the prestigious title of World Design Capital 2014 in Taipei, Taiwan;
(2) further notes that with more than half the world's population now living in urban areas, design has become an increasingly fundamental tool to make cities more competitive, attractive, liveable and efficient;
(3) acknowledges that the World Design Capital designation is a city promotion project that celebrates the accomplishments of cities that have used design as a tool to reinvent themselves and improve social, cultural and economic life, and that the City of Cape Town exemplifies these ideals;
(4) further acknowledges that the designation provides a distinctive opportunity for cities to showcase their accomplishments in attracting and promoting innovative design as well as highlighting successes in urban revitalisation strategies;
(5) recognises that this award is one of many awards previously awarded to the City of Cape Town, to name but a few: Best World City in the 2008 Telegraph Travel Awards, one of the World's Top 20 Cities – Condé Naste Traveller Readers' Travel Awards in September 2010, and Africa's Leading Destination – World Travel Awards for the years 2010, 2009, 2008, 2006, 2005 and 2003;
(6) commends the bidding committee and the Cape Town Partnership for their selfless dedication in bringing this prestigious title home where it belongs; and
(7) congratulates the people of Cape Town, the Cape Town Partnership, the City of Cape Town and the provincial government of the Western Cape on this great achievement.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
INDIGENOUS ANNUAL THANKSGIVING CEREMONY FOR RAIN AND SOIL FERTILITY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that in October every year the Khoisan communities and the Queen of Balobedu, Modjadji, holds thanksgiving ceremonies for rain and fertility of the soil;
(2) recalls that these ceremonies were part of ancient African community practices from time immemorial, wherein communities had special astronomer priests, Mukuapasi, who observed the movement of celestial bodies and their effect on the climate and weather;
(3) further recalls that even our national and international heritage site at Mapungubwe was an observatory site where astronomer priests observed celestial bodies and climate change, and when the climate changed they moved to establish a new settlement at Great Zimbabwe, and even today Mapungubwe remains the principal rainmaking centre;
(4) believes that the indigenous knowledge system played a very important role in determining climate and climate change;
(5) urges the government to celebrate these annual thanksgiving ceremonies;
(6) further urges the organisers of Cop 17 to tap into this indigenous knowledge system by engaging with the indigenous communities in preparation for Cop 17; and
(7) wishes the Khoisan communities and the Queen of Balobedu, Modjadji, success in their thanksgiving ceremonies for rain and fertility of the soil.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
COMMEMORATING THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that on 24 October 2011, the International United Nations Day was celebrated, which since 1948 commemorates the anniversary of the Charter of the United Nations;
(2) further notes that this day celebrates the achievements of the United Nations and draws attention to the aims of this organisation;
(3) asserts its commitment to the pivotal role that this organisation plays; and
(4) calls upon all South Africans to respect this organisation and to honour the function that the United Nations plays within the international sphere of governance.
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 17:16.
Src / END OF TAKE
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