Hansard: Questions for oral reply to Ministers : Governance
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 16 Aug 2011
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Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Wednesday, 17 August 2011 Take: 407
WEDNESDAY, 17 AUGUST 2011
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
The House met at 15:01.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
The SPEAKER
START OF DAY
QUESTIONS
Governance – Cluster 3
The SPEAKER: Order! The item on the Order Paper is questions addressed to Ministers in the Governance cluster. Members may press the "To talk" button on their desk if they wish to ask a supplementary question. The first question has been put by the hon Mrs J C Moloi-Moropa to the Minister for the Public Service and Administration.
Question 70:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, the first stakeholder engagement on the further transformation of the Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, is taking place on 23 September 2011, after which further engagements will be managed as part of the implementation process. All university-based schools of governance and administration, together with other stakeholders, have been invited to be part of this consultation session.
A draft position paper on the project will be considered, in terms of which Palama will provide preparatory training interventions for future public servants, whilst continuing to offer orientation and advance training of public officials appointed or elected. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: Is there any supplementary question, hon Moloi-Moropa? There is no supplementary question.
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK: Hon Speaker, Minister, arising out of the hon Minister's reply, Palama must now become a school of government. Although knowledge and skills are important elements in any training process, of the utmost importance in our Public Service at this stage is the cultivation of a climate of professional ethics. All public servants, including the executive authorities, should be schooled to understand the values and principles set out in Chapter 10 of our Constitution. To train people on values, ethics, principles and integrity is a difficult exercise.
How does Palama intend to do that? Minister, why have you not referred some of your colleagues in the Cabinet to such a course in ethics, integrity, etc, in order for them to follow it? I know, Minister, that just this morning in a committee meeting we were briefed on a draft document on the implementation of the Public Sector Integrity Management Framework. The challenge, obviously, is to ensure that this effort will not go down in history as just another document on paper, but that the implementation ... [Time expired.]
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, it is true that professional ethics or training in professional ethics in the Public Service is the way to go, as the Constitution, of course, indicates. It may appear to be difficult, but it is a task that Palama is equal to. Palama has come out with a training model that is modelled on creating an environment of training where we will produce public servants who hold the attributes of public servants who are ready to live up to what is expected of them.
The programme of advanced training for leadership is available, even for hon Members of Parliament. I thought that the hon member, before asking about whether I was encouraging others to participate, would have reported as to whether she had been part of the programme that Palama has provided for Members of Parliament in here. Maybe she will relate that later on. Thank you very much.
The SPEAKER: I have on my screen the following names: Hon Ms A Dlodlo, followed by hon Mr J J McGluwa. Hon Dlodlo, if you are not in the Chamber, please don't press the "To talk" button.
Mr J J MCGLUWA
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Thank you, Speaker. Fortunately, Minister, I am part of the programme mentioned. Arising out of the hon Minister's reply, my question to the Minister is: What is the Minister expecting from the national discussions, seeing that we are talking about an education indaba? I have noted that Palama is already busy in Parliament. How does this correlate with the partnership with Parliament in developing Members of Parliament and the programme that they initiated, compared to those of other institutions like the universities? Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, I want to commend and congratulate the member on taking the decision to be part of the training.
What is intended with the consultations? They are to get the schools of public administration and governance attached to the universities to be part of assisting in terms of sharing when Palama becomes a school of public administration dealing with preparation for entry, and actually occupying the space between graduation and entry, into the Public Service.
We should then learn from these stakeholders, because ours is training that is meant to assist in strengthening a Public Service that is responsive to the needs of the people. That will be shifted in through the training, as we work in regard to the attributes that we have referred to. That is exactly what we are planning to do.
The partnership that we have with Parliament will continue. It is a partnership that calls for needs-based training. We can then look at the priorities that Parliament expects in regard to training, and we will get into that accordingly. Thank you very much.
Question 71: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Question 70: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Question 71:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, has commenced with the implementation of a turnaround strategy. The focus of the Sita turnaround strategy has been to deal with issues around institutional arrangements.
We can report what has been completed under that. The following situation now exists. Sita has adopted a new operating model that optimises value to the client through a co-ordinated and integrated approach to clients for guaranteed quality of service, and defines the Sita capability model to ensure the availability of the requisite skills in Sita to be able to deliver.
We have filled 95% of top management vacancies and have strengthened the board of Sita.
There are projects that are works in progress. These include the draft distribution model aimed at enhancing the capacity and performance of the Sita provincial offices as part of supporting local economic development; and the completion of the organisational restructuring exercise, inclusive of a new organisational design.
We can report that service delivery arrangements have been completed and that we have approved the implementation of strategies and initiatives aimed at lowering the cost of information technology goods and services to government.
So yes, hon Speaker, Sita is on course in terms of implementing the turnaround strategy. I thank you.
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK: Speaker, the public's perception of Sita is that of a scandal-ridden organisation. Irregular expenditure amounted to R214 million in the 2009-10 financial year, procurement processes have been mismanaged, criminal activities by Sita individual staff members have led to suspensions, etc.
Minister, you say that Sita's turnaround framework or strategy is on track. May I remind you of what you once said, and I quote:
I don't like to use the term 'turnaround', because it often means you end up where you start ...
To prevent that from happening, why do you not close Sita's doors? Departments can then go directly to the industry to procure those services which Sita is unable to render or incapable of rendering at the required time, quality and price. Internal corruption will then no longer be a problem, and in the free market high quality service can be enforced. If an IT company does not deliver, its services can be terminated and the department can move on to a company which does deliver. Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, I just want to remind the hon member that public opinion is shaped by developments around institutions. It is true that when we developed the turnaround strategy we identified challenges. We then committed ourselves to programmes to address those challenges. These challenges include making sure that issues around pricing, Seta performance, and quality of service are addressed.
We want to report that, as we speak now, and since the introduction of the turnaround strategy, we have managed to reach out to those clients who were outside the Sita performance area and those who opted out because of their observations, and we have acknowledged to them that the intervention is addressing the problems and that the turnaround strategy is delivering. So, there is no point in thinking about addressing the issue that the hon member has raised, because the record speaks for itself. I thank you very much, hon Speaker.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Speaker, I noted that the Minister's reply did not mention the irregular expenditure of R214 million. I wonder, hon Minister, if the turnaround strategy you are speaking about provides for adherence to thePublic Finance Management Act, PFMA, and whether it includes the issue of the recovery by Sita itself of the irregular expenditure of R214 million.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, the institutional revitalisation of Sita meant that we were injecting into Sita, as part of the turnaround strategy, an arrangement where you had what it took to be there. You will remember that when we introduced the turnaround strategy we said we wanted to address a practice where, from an institutional point of view, operationally, you had an entity that was perfectly depleted in regard to having men and women who actually addressed that.
As we speak, we should look at the performance of Sita in terms of what has been confirmed, even by the Auditor-General, that Sita is performing in accordance with the provisions of the PFMA. There are, of course, areas where there is room for improvement. In that arrangement we are saying the record speaks for itself. You couldn't, at that stage, have a situation of a performing organisation perfectly depleted at organisational and executive levels. I think that is what we are reporting in this regard. Thank you very much.
Mrs C DUDLEY
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, hon Minister, what progress has been made in stemming the high staff turnover and lack of core skills, especially at leadership and executive levels?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Speaker, the member was speaking too fast. Can you please repeat your question; I couldn't pick up what you were saying.
Mrs C DUDLEY: What progress has been made with the high staff turnover and loss of core skills? Thanks.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: On the progress made concerning the high turnover, I think you will remember that when we introduced the turnaround strategy, we were at the point of celebrating Sita's 10 years of existence. We indicated that in the 10 years of Sita's existence we had had the reality of a high turnover, where we had had more than 14 chief executive officers. We said that in the turnaround strategy we needed to look into the business of Sita and address what was not attracting people to stay in the organisation, given that Sita is one of the best-paying employer organisations. So, the progress in as far as this is concerned is that we can assure you that we have stability regarding the Sita staff complement. Thank you very much.
Question 80: The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY
Question 71: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Question 80:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, yes, the ANC government has prioritised the fight against crime and corruption. The ANC government has also identified corruption as a key threat to achieving government objectives; hence our intense focus on it.
The President has shown commitment and leadership since coming into office and has demonstrated this commitment practically. With the support of Cabinet, he established a number of structures to deal effectively with this problem.
The Interministerial Committee and the Anticorruption Task Team are amongst a few. These structures are supported by the law enforcement agencies, such as the Hawks, the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, the Asset Forfeiture Unit, and the National Prosecuting Authority. They are also working with key departments, such as the National Treasury and Justice and Constitutional Development, including the police.
As the President said during his address to media owners earlier this month, in the last financial year he issued 18 proclamations authorising the SIU to conduct investigations, the highest ever in the history of this country.
In total, the SIU is currently investigating procurement contracts to the value of about R10 billion and conflicts of interest involving officials estimated at a value of about R5 billion. The SIU is also working closely with the Department of Police to investigate procurement irregularities in the building of 33 police stations worth approximately R330 million. Investigations are also under way in the national Departments of Rural Development and Land Reform, and Public Works, the Tshwane and Ekurhuleni Municipalities, and in the Western Cape.
In KwaZulu-Natal the Anticorruption Task Team, together with the SIU, the Hawks, the National Prosecuting Authority, and the Asset Forfeiture Unit, has identified land reform farms to the value of about R60 million that might have been transferred to private individuals unlawfully. Farms valued at about R36 million have been recovered for the state. The Anticorruption Task Team has also been working with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to probe municipalities under the banner of Operation Clean Audit. A total of 362 cases were received for investigation. To date, 291 arrests have been made. Of these, 167 are public servants, while 124 are members of the public. All have appeared in court. This effort has achieved 155 convictions, made up of 77 public servants and 78 members of the public. We are indeed making progress.
With regard to the Interministerial Committee, the work of the committee is to co-ordinate government efforts in this regard. The committee is also meant to ensure that all law enforcement agencies and departments are working together and doing work in a co-operative manner to rid our nation of this scourge. Let me make this clear: This is a Cabinet co-ordinating structure, and it reports to Cabinet. All structures of government and agencies account for their activities through annual reports and other existing parliamentary processes. The responsibility of this committee is to ensure that all these structures are functioning properly and are able to do their work without any problems.
Through this structure, we are able to guide the law enforcement agencies and departments to prioritise specific areas which we believe will lead to success and which we believe will lead to ways of removing problems around our economy. There is, amongst others, supply chain management at all levels of government. We have dealt with mining licences, identity theft, including fraud, social grants and cyber crime. However, all institutions have a responsibility to fight corruption in their own areas of work. Corruption is a scourge that is threatening our efforts to lead our country to prosperity. This government will not rest until it has removed this cancer from our society.
We are making steady progress as a country, and we call on the nation to take hands and deal with this problem. We also take this opportunity to ask anyone in our country who has any information that can assist in this effort to report that information to the relevant enforcement agencies. I thank you.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, far from practical demonstrations of commitment, it seems that the ANC administration has gone soft on corruption and tough on those bodies whose anticorruption investigations hit too close to home. The number of proclamations in this regard speaks volumes.
Cabinet recently proposed the establishment of an overarching anticorruption body to review the effectiveness of corruption-busting organs like the Public Protector. You said the idea of an overarching anticorruption body was still at an initial stage, but it has red flags. The only red flag is Cabinet's intention to trespass on ground that is constitutionally out of bounds. The Public Protector reports to Parliament, and its independence is constitutionally enshrined. Cabinet therefore has no mandate to interfere with its activities.
Why then, Minister, did Cabinet make this proposal? According to what criteria would Cabinet judge whether the Public Protector was effective or not, and what steps would Cabinet plan to take if the Public Protector was deemed "ineffective"?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, I am sure that the member is asking a different question altogether. However, let me respond.
We are saying that we have a number of institutions which are involved in fighting crime and corruption. In that context we will have to find a way in which all of them can be co-ordinated. We have never spoken about the Public Protector. We are speaking about institutions which are supposed to be dealing with crime and corruption. There has been a call, from both the public and civil society, to say that we need to review our method of co-ordinating the structures which fight corruption. It is that process that we are dealing with. Thank you.
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Speaker and hon Minister, the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation is not old; it is new. Through you, Speaker, could the Minister explain to the House where we draw the line between the functions of the anticorruption framework that he has just outlined in his department, and the functions of the anticorruption framework in the hon Baloyi's department, as the two departments stand? Would you clarify to us how they will function? If you will allow it, Speaker, both of them may respond. Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY: Speaker, obviously, as I said, we have a number of institutions and departments whose responsibility it is to deal with corruption of one kind or another. You have the National Treasury, which deals specifically with issues related to supply chain management. You have the Department of the Public Service and Administration, which deals with the general problem of corruption and ethics within the public sector. You have the police and various units of the police, and you have other units which are dealing with this matter.
That is why we say that there needs to be a co-ordinated effort to fight corruption and what that will need to be. We have said that we need to review how effective the measures that we have are in dealing with the various forms of corruption and how effective the various institutions are in dealing with that. At the moment, there are various institutions, agencies, and departments that are responsible for one aspect of corruption or one aspect of that function. That is why we think that there is a need for us to do the review which is under way. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon Minister. I won't allow any other Minister to respond to this question. There is only one Minister to do that. Hon Minister Baloyi, you don't have to bother to respond. I am not going to give you a chance to respond. It is not a question for you.
Question 72: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 80: The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION IN THE PRESIDENCY
Question 72:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Speaker, in reply to the question, we would like to say that the induction programme was very well attended and served quite well in respect of its basic function, which was to give the newly-elected councillors a basic understanding of their responsibilities and their roles.
In this regard, the programme included, amongst other things, a basic introduction to the structures and systems of local government; the roles and responsibilities of municipal councils; the personal and leadership skills required of the new councillors; the system of co-operative governance; and, of course, a basic introduction to financial management issues.
Obviously, the induction programme is only part of a major, intensive, ongoing programme of capacity-building for both councillors and officials. We would, of course, welcome Parliament's exercising rigorous oversight over this programme. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: I thank the hon Deputy Minister. Is there a supplementary question?
Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Ms M J SEGALE-DISWAI: Yes. Thank you, Deputy Minister. We are aware that the municipalities are already spending without a proper full induction on finance and supply management. I would like to know how the department is assisting the municipalities to spend correctly. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Basically we are working together with National Treasury, the Auditor-General's Office and a wide range of other stakeholders in assisting both councillors and officials to spend the money that they have better.
Obviously, it is only about nine weeks since the elections, and that programme is unfolding. It will be constantly unfolding, and we mean to ensure that they do spend money far more effectively, especially as many, many municipalities, and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, on their behalf, are asking for more money.
As the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, together with National Treasury, we are saying, yes, they can have more money, but first they should spend the money that they currently have far more productively and effectively. The more they do that, the better becomes their case to get additional money. We are very keen that Parliament engages with us around this over the next year and more. Thank you, indeed.
Mr P F SMITH
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr P F SMITH: Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Minister, firstly, what role, if any, the department itself has in councillor training. Secondly, is he aware of any study of the training conducted historically and to date, and particularly whether there is any link between the training and the performance of councillors. I would like to know what the outcomes of training are. It is one thing for councillors to attend training; it is another thing whether it achieves a positive outcome.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes, firstly, Cogta is working with Salga on the first set of courses. We manage the courses together. We shape the courses together. Our relationship will increase over the next five-year period and more.
Secondly, yes, we are acutely aware that large sums of money have been invested in councillor training and education. Our own view is that we have not got back the return on our investment and that these programmes actually have to be far more effective than they currently are. I think there is no doubt about that.
Thirdly, we ourselves have undertaken small studies, but nothing of a significant degree yet, although this is on our agenda and we mean to do it. We have, in fact, raised this with Salga, because they came to ask for money. We said we could release more money, but we first had to see what they had done with the money allocated to them by us through the National Budget, and so on.
In short, we agree that much more needs to be done to ensure that the education programmes result in effective outcomes.
Mrs M WENGER
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS
Mrs M WENGER: Hon Deputy Minister, there were two very obvious flaws in this training. They were so obvious, in fact, that they speak of poor planning and conception.
The first was that experienced councillors were intended to get the same training as the new councillors. Obviously, experienced councillors found that the training was of little use. So, why spend money on training experienced councillors if you are going to give them the same introductory course?
The second flaw was that in some cases trainers were former councillors from rural municipalities, who were expected to train metro councillors. There was a vast difference between the two.
Does the Minister agree that the training wasted money?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: No, but I do agree that we could have done better.
In the first instance, we are acutely aware that experienced councillors have different needs from new councillors - not always, but in most cases. However, we thought that for the first phase of it, we should have both experienced and new councillors together, because obviously the experienced councillors, as I am sure you will agree, would share some of their own experiences with the new councillors.
Secondly, I am not aware that rural councillors were asked to train urban municipal councillors. The fact that you are from a rural municipality obviously does not mean that you are not in a position to assist newly-elected councillors in urban municipalities. It does not follow. In fact, many of the experiences in the more challenged municipalities in the rural areas will be of enormous value to those who are in more urban-oriented municipalities. So, I do not buy the view that it necessarily follows. In each case, one has to look at the specific merits and demerits.
The third thing to say is that we will, in fact, have a much more strategic and streamlined process as we go forward. We welcome your views here. You can do it via the committee. We actually also mean to focus specifically on full-time councillors and their more onerous responsibilities and the different training they will have to have.
We are also aware that those who serve on executive committees have a slightly different role from those who are backbencher councillors, as it were. Again, the needs for training differ. However, this is merely the first phase of an ongoing process that will persist until the terms of the current councils lapse. Thank you.
Mr T BOTHA
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr T BOTHA: Speaker, the question is whether the Deputy Minister is satisfied that enough emphasis was placed on the Municipal Finance Management Act in the induction process.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: No, and we will give keen attention to ensuring that this happens. Again, this means working more closely with Treasury. Yes, we need to do more.
Question 86: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 72: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 86:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The repeal of the Remuneration of Town Clerks Act, Act 115 of 1984, and the implementation of the new system of local government in December 2000 meant that a new system came into effect that gave municipalities greater latitude on the appointment of municipal managers.
The new system did not, in fact, place a ceiling on the salaries of municipal managers, partly because it was understood that different councils or municipalities would have different budgets and would have different room to pay municipal managers.
It is also partly that we recognised that municipalities often have to compete with the private sector and those who carry the skills that municipalities require to play the role of municipal manager.
So we gave them some latitude through the national legislation to negotiate packages specific to their needs, depending on which municipality it was. In that regard, it has to be drawn to the attention of the House that with the new system the municipal managers could serve terms of up to five years, with renewable contracts. Again, because they were not permanently employed, it meant their packages had to be handled differently.
However, with our experience since 2000, we recognised that this was not working out. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill, passed by this very Parliament, is now the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, Act 32 of 2000, which has been promulgated. This provides for the Minister to regulate the basic conditions of remuneration applying to municipal managers, and that is what Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, is currently doing. In fact, within the next two weeks we hope to gazette the regulations that flow from this Act, and part of this will seek to address this very issue.
However, I must stress that there are constitutional and other legislative constraints on how far national legislation or regulations can go in this regard. So, we are bound by the constitutional constraints and I urge members to understand that it is not as if we can solve the problem overnight by regulations.
Mr P F SMITH
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr P F SMITH: Speaker, there is a popular perception, particularly in the very poor rural municipalities, that salaries for senior management can be rather generous compared to what's being delivered.
However, there is another concern, which is my question to you, that generally remuneration, salaries and so on often constitute too high a percentage of operating budgets. To what extent does the department share the view that this is a serious challenge that needs addressing, and what is the department doing about it, that is, constraining salaries and remuneration costs to a reasonable figure?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: As the hon member will know, this is a matter that Cogta has been preoccupied with. We agree that the personnel costs in municipalities in general are far too high. However, my understanding is that over the past few years they have come down, although they haven't come down to what I think the National Treasury standard is, 30% of the budget of a municipality. We are concerned about ensuring that that happens, that the money is used for service delivery and development, rather than for personnel expenses. In fact, this Local Government: Municipal Systems Act that has just been passed by this House is partly designed to ensure this.
On its own, obviously it wouldn't do it, but this is part of the process that we have set out for the committee that Mr Smith serves in and which we are seeking to achieve over the next two to three years. So, yes that is our goal. It is not as if no improvement has occurred and it is certainly true that we have room for more improvement.
Again it comes to this, that local government, in terms of the Constitution, is a sphere of government, and, as much as it's part of an integrated co-operative governance system, we all have to agree that we might have to look at the Constitution to see how we can ensure that the national sphere can more proactively intervene in municipalities without, of course, eroding their powers.
Mrs M WENGER
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mrs M WENGER: What monitoring will the Minister implement to ensure that the salary structures in municipalities are appropriate to the grading of the municipality and within the financial means of that municipality, unlike Renosterberg in the Northern Cape?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Well, that again is covered by my earlier responses. It is covered in part by the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, Act 32 of 2000, the regulations to which are being gazetted in the next two weeks, and we look forward to the comments of the hon member and those in the committee on those regulations. Perhaps we should take it to the committee in its draft form and they can engage around it. But these are the very issues that Cogta is concerned about, so I don't think there is any major difference between what the hon member is raising and what we ourselves at Cogta feel.
Rev K R J MESHOE
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Rev K R J MESHOE: Hon Deputy Minister, many people believe that the poor service that is rendered by a large number of municipalities does not justify the exorbitant salaries that are paid to some municipal managers. We wonder how one can justify a salary that almost equals that of the President when problems such potholes, incorrect billing, dirty streets and buildings, and poor infrastructure are not properly addressed. Also, when traffic lights are not working, one seldom sees traffic officers helping to control the traffic.
So, my question to you, hon Deputy Minister, is this. What is the job description of managers that justifies the salaries of more than R1 million that are paid, when they cannot ensure that efficient basic services are rendered to our communities? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: With due respect, it's the same question asked in a different form. I'm not sure what more I can say. I'm not sure if there are any rules or guidelines that guide a reply. I will say it again, if you will kindly refer to the record, you will see I have answered your question.
But if you want to know a bit more, I must summon to my aid something that occurred to me a moment ago, which is that we in these very regulations are actually trying to address that issue.
We are also aware that there are situations, for example, in very challenged rural municipalities, where if you want to get an appropriate person to be the municipal manager, you have to compete with other municipalities like Johannesburg, Ethekwini, Cape Town and so on. Sometimes it may well be the case that in a poorer, more financially challenged municipality you might have to have a municipal manager who is frankly paid more highly than somebody who is managing Johannesburg, because the challenges are so much more onerous and it is difficult draw people to the smaller, more rural municipalities.
In short, I think with due respect that the same questions, Mr Speaker, are being asked in different forms. So can I plead with members that before they ask a question, they listen to the previous answers so that we save a lot of time. Thank you very much.
Nk D G NHLENGETHWA
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
IsiZulu:
Nk D G NHLENGETHWA:
Sekela likaNgqongqoshe, ngivumelana nawe uma uthi umthetho okhona okwamanje uyavumelana nokuthi omasipala akube yibo abathatha izinqumo zokuthi abaphathi bomasipala kufanele bahole malini.
Mhlonoshwa, ngabe uyavumelana nami ukuthi njengombuso osathuthuka ake sinike le mithetho ekhona ithuba lokuthi siyibone ukuthi isebenza kanjani, singajahi ukuholela abaphathi bomasipala imiholo elinganayo kanti izimo abasebenza ngaphansi kwazo azifani.
Ngokombuzo kamhlonishwa u-Botha kungathatha isikhathi esingakanani ukuze sibe nosichibiyelo somthetho wokuthi abaphathi bomasipala bahole amaholo alinganayo ngokusebenza kahle kwabo?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: The hon member has raised questions that tread on a longer-term consideration that I think we who are concerned with this issue all need to apply our minds to, which is that we are looking into a single Public Service.
One of the reasons for that is the possibility that in time to come we might have to move some of the Directors-General, DGs, we have at the national level and their counterparts at the provincial level to local government.
If we are serious that local government is the main area of service delivery and development, and that without a successful, effective local government system this democracy won't work, it might well mean that in future we will have to pay municipal managers higher salaries.
However, those salaries will not necessarily derive from their respective budgets. There might be a consideration that as we move towards a single Public Service, the national fiscus might have, over time, in a temperate moderate way, to consider giving municipalities some sort of allowance to pay municipal managers of the necessary quality and skills, who will obviously demand higher salaries in the market.
So, I think this issue is quite complex and, as we are reviewing the model of local government, and as we are beginning to look at a new more integrated cooperative governance system, these issues need to be looked at more strategically - member, I think you are raising broader issues - and it may well be that we have to move people from the national sphere to the local sphere which means, of course, that they will have to be paid appropriately.
So, I think there are broader issues here, and we shouldn't get too preoccupied with some of the immediate issues which are being addressed in any case. They are part of our overall strategy that we are seeking to achieve over the next five years and more. Thank you.
Question 73: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 86: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 73:
The SPEAKER: Question 73 has been put by the hon Mr S L Tsenoli to the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Hon Deputy Minister, this is your day!
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Well, actually it is my Minister's day - I am merely here on his behalf!
Nevertheless, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, as you know, Mr Tsenoli, is responsible for the administration of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, the Municipal Systems Improvement Grant and, of course, the Local Government Equitable Share.
The amount of funding to local government in terms of both the Local Government Equitable Share and the Municipal Infrastructure Grant, have steadily increased over the years. Minister Manuel and Minister Gordhan might think it is simply they that are being kind, but actually it is pressure, not least from the hon Tsenoli's portfolio committee, that has put this on the agenda, and also a recognition of the importance of local government.
The equitable share, mind you, has increased from R25,5 billion in the 2008-09 financial year to R34,1 billion in the current financial year. The Municipal Infrastructure Grant has increased from R4,4 billion in 2004-05 to R11,4 billion in 2011-12.
There is, of course, no specific amount for funding district municipalities directly, though the structure and formula of the Local Government Equitable Share takes into account various criteria, including the number of poor households, the number of households without access to basic services, the cost of basic services and other considerations, and so too with the Municipal Infrastructure Grant. The formula takes into account the backlogs and the powers and functions that different municipalities have, as against the local and district aspects, and so on.
Obviously, the issue of what funding is appropriate for the districts is related to the broader issue of what happens to the two-tier system in local government. The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will soon be bringing to the public, over the next year or so, a discussion document around aspects of the model of local government that we think should be reviewed. So the issue of how you fund districts is also related to the broader issue of what the future role of district municipalities is, which is far from finalised, and we certainly need a debate around it. Thank you.
Ms D G NHLENGETHWA
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Ms D G NHLENGETHWA: Deputy Minister, as much as we can understand as you respond that the amount of funding to local government in terms of both the Local Government Equitable Share and the Municipal Infrastructure Grant has increased, given the experience that we have, we are convinced that many district municipalities have sufficient resources and are performing very well. So they can give necessary support to weaker local municipalities.
Deputy Minister, do you agree with me that proper funding to district municipalities, which will be determined by the population and the number of households in that area, will assist in improving service delivery, especially to smaller and rural municipalities that are battling to generate revenue and are relying solely on grants? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes, I agree. In fact until the issue of what happens to district municipalities is resolved, which I imagine will happen sometime in 2013, we think the role of the districts, as they are currently constituted, must be effectively fulfilled. We agree that more money should be allocated to them. We think that it may well be that in 2013 we might decide, after this huge debate, that we actually want a stronger district municipality system.
Yes, in the interim more money could be allocated to them, but again it comes down to this, that it is not a question of money. It is also a question of using the current allocation of funds and other resources to district municipalities effectively and more productively. Moreover, it relates also to the relationship between local and district municipalities.
They are not distributing the powers and functions between local and districts optimally, and are not co-operating to the extent that they should. Clearly, they must be more effective. The answer does not reside simply with more money and resources. It also resides in making more effective use of the current model. Thank you.
Mr P F SMITH
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr P F SMITH: Chairperson, the figures that the Deputy Minister quoted in regard to equitable share and all that are great. It is good to see the figures rising phenomenally. However, I think there has been a much broader question raised many a time over the last 15 years about the funding model itself. I am not asking a question related to district councils particularly, but thefundingmodel as a whole.
To what extent is government serious about reconsidering the present funding model, and the equitable share in particular? We hear a rumour that there is a summit plan for next year where this issue is going to be addressed, perhaps for the first time seriously. If so, could the Minister indicate what the agenda is, who the participants are, and what kind of outcome is expected from that summit? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes, as you should well know, hon member, we have addressed your committee on many occasions, and have referred to the structure that exists. It comprises the National Treasury, other stakeholders, not least the SA Local Government Association and us. The aim is to review the model.
The Minister of Finance has gone on record as saying that the formula of the Local Government Equitable Share model needs to be reviewed. There is agreement on the National Treasury side that we should do this. In fact, that is what we are doing. We will be holding the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review Summit, which you have referred to, and the tentative date set for that is February 2012. Tentatively also there will be preparation for that summit in September this year. The relevant officials and other stakeholders will be brought together.
The aim is to look at the entire intergovernmental fiscal system. But clearly, we have to look at the entire intergovernmental relations system too because you can't talk about funding without talking about the model that we are moving towards. So, some of the financial issues will not be resolved until the issues regarding the new model of local government are adequately addressed.
Mr J R B LORIMER
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr J R B LORIMER: Mr Chairperson, I am glad the Deputy Minister appears to realise that if money is being improperly spent, there is no point in adding to the amount of money that is given.
I would like to know, firstly, what measures the department is putting in place to ensure that when money is spent on capital projects, there is proper oversight. I draw the Deputy Minister's attention to the experience of the portfolio committee's recent oversight visit to the Free State, where the portfolio committee actually put a stop to two projects which were under way using inferior materials not approved by the SABS? In other words, there was no local oversight of the projects and money was being wasted in those two cases.
Secondly, what is the department doing to ensure that when misspending occurs, counsellors and officials involved are held accountable? I say this because there is a great deal of misspending but very little action. So, it is no real surprise that misspending and corruption continue. If you take, for example, the case of the O R Tambo District Municipality in the Eastern Cape, where the mayor used district funds to purchase farms in KwaZulu-Natal and appointed her husband to manage them, which he did, badly, the mayor has now been promoted to being an MEC!
So, the third part of my question is: What kind of message does that send?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: This issue is also one of the issues that we have addressed in the summit that we are speaking of.
Clearly, we have three spheres of government. Your party would be the first to get excited were we to say that national and provincial government should be far more proactive. You would insist on the autonomy of municipalities. On the other hand and in the same breath you would insist that the national government, like Big Brother as it were, intervened and effectively took over the role of municipalities.
In the first instance, there are the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act and the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, which clearly provide for oversight of these projects and any activity in terms of the integrated development plan, IDP, by counsellors and officials.
They also provide for a ward committee system and other forms of community participation. So the public needs to be more active and, as you well know, Mr Lorimer, we are reviewing the ward committee system to make it more powerful, effective and better resourced. These proposals have come to your committee and will be taken further in the next six months.
The second point, may I stress, is something you are familiar with. The MEC for local government in a province takes the immediate responsibility for overseeing the performance of municipalities.
The third point is that on the agenda of Cabinet at the moment is what we are calling the Monitoring, Support and Intervention Bill. It seeks to give effect to section 139 of the Constitution to provide for a far more proactive intervention - by provinces in the first instance, but by national government also - in local government issues, especially where a local government municipality is not performing the way it should. However, we are not seeking by this means to erode the basic powers and functions of municipalities. In fact, what we are seeking to do is to strengthen municipalities by ensuring more integrated and more effective co-operative governance.
In respect of the last tranche of your question, I am not very familiar with the issues, but from what I gather there is no evidence for the allegations that have appeared in the public domain. There was an investigation and the outcome was that there was no evidence to suggest that the mayor concerned had actually done anything wrong. The decision to promote her is something you should address with the provincial executive committee of the ANC, and I can give you the address. It is not a question to Parliament. Thank you.
Mr T BOTHA
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr T BOTHA: Deputy Minister, it is clear that, based on the report of the Auditor-General, the irregularities that municipalities are subject to, where they have qualifications in their financial affairs, have been increasing. Of the 177 municipalities inspected in 2008-09 financial year, qualifications on the basis of unauthorised, irregular and wasteful expenditure accounted for 13% only in that year. However, the following year that number increased to 77% of municipalities refused qualifications on capital assets, 75% on current assets, and 75% in the category of liabilities. So there is no improvement. The situation is getting worse. What is the department doing to improve the situation?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: In the first instance, the Auditor-General himself, who is independent and whom you have a lot of respect for, I know, says that there is improvement. The facts speak for themselves - there has been a marginal improvement over the last three to four years. But clearly, if you look at the goals of Operation Clean Audit, the progress that has been secured over the last three years is nowhere near what is necessary. I think we agree on that.
As for what we are doing, I refer you to my earlier replies, and just remind you in a nutshell that it is bringing together the Auditor-General's Office, the SA Local Government Association, the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, us as the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, and other relevant stakeholders to actually have an intensive programme to address this issue. It will not happen overnight.
We are very clear that the better municipalities manage their finances, the better they are able to improve service delivery and development, and the reverse applies. The more focused they are on service delivery and development, the better they will manage their funds. So we are in agreement that it needs to be improved, but we certainly don't agree that there has been no progress, not at all. Mr Botha, you know for a fact as well that there has been improvement. What you are focusing on is only one element of the report, without looking at the report as a whole.
I refer you to what the Auditor-General has said in the public domain. He also, by the way, insists that while the progress has been marginal, it is certainly the foundation on which Operation Clean Audit targets can indeed be achieved. So actually he himself says that he is quite optimistic, based on the achievement of the limited progress we have had over the last three years.
Question 77: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 73: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 77:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, it is, of course, not the intention of the department to subject the additional properties, beyond the first of the house owners of residential properties, to commercial or business rates, as we have repeatedly made clear, Mr Lorimer, and as you yourself well know. On this issue we keep saying to people that there was an ambiguity in a particular clause. If you read the Bill as a whole, however, it is very clear that it was never the intention of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, to subject residential properties to commercial or business rates.
However, if people use a house or a residential property for business purposes, and if it is beyond a small, let us say, emerging business, the municipality has the right to levy property rates according to business tariffs, if that residential property is used for a business of a significant scale. The decision about what is "significant" will obviously be made at the local level. So, it is not our intention, as you well know.
As Cogta we want to stress that it is like saying, "We do not believe there are purple ducks." Then people say to us, "Okay, that it is very clear. Now tell us, do these purple ducks have three wings?" So we say, "No, no, no, Cogta doesn't believe that there are purple ducks. So the issue of whether they have three wings or three legs does not arise." Then they will say, "Yes, oh that's clear. Then they will ask, "Now tell us, these purple ducks, is it true they come from Mongolia?" Then we'll say, "No, no, no. We have said to you we don't believe there are purple ducks." Then they say, "Oh, that's clear." Then the next question is, "Deputy Minister, can you respond to the view that these purple ducks can make the water in the ponds in the park poisonous. And then you say, "No, no, no, but we're telling you we don't believe there are purple ducks. So the issue doesn't arise! [Laughter.]
Mr Lorimer, will you please not ask another question like that? There are no purple ducks! [Laughter.] Cogta doesn't believe there are purple ducks! So, to answer your question: it was never our intention, and if there is any misunderstanding that we feel that there are purple ducks, we will clarify it. Let me make this clear, Cogta does not believe that there are purple ducks and if there is anything in the legislation that implies that, we will clarify it. We will decide on the wording in the next two weeks. Thank you.
Mr M J ELLIS
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr M J ELLIS: A couple of years ago, the hon Trevor Manuel raised the issue of hens' teeth or hens with teeth. We pointed out to him that there are indeed hens that do have teeth. I would like to say to the hon Deputy Minister who has just been speaking, that he should be extremely careful about talking about no purple ducks with three wings, because I am sure that we can prove to him very substantially that there are such things. [Laughter.]
Mr J R B LORIMER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Deputy Minister, I think you may have ducked the question! [Laughter.] You keep using the phrase, "as you well know". Well, if I did know, I wouldn't be asking the question. Your answer was interesting and entertaining, but I am afraid not that illuminating.
I still need to ask. Can I give you a hypothetical case? There is somebody who owns a second property, a holiday flat down at the coast, and they let that flat for one or two months a year. Is that flat now going to be re-rated?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, Cogta wants to repeat that we do not believe there are purple ducks. To answer the question more specifically, no, as he well knows.
I say this because in the question he put to my Minister he, in fact, attached the statement issued by Cogta which appeared in my name. I made it very clear there that the second, third or fourth residential property of a house owner would not be subject to property rates that apply to commerce or business. I even said this in my reply right now, Mr Lorimer. I will go much slower this time and I hope the Chairperson will give me the time limit. I am saying again, that unless it is a substantial business and not a small one, you will not have commercial or business rates apply to that property.
Mr Lorimer, obviously if you own a house, the one in Umhlanga Rocks is safe! Don't worry. If you hire it out during the holiday season or when the tourists want to come to your place during the off tourist season, you will not be paying commercial or business rates, but only those that apply to residential properties.
You must have heard me on radio. I think I have spoken 18 times, on the smallest radio stations. In one of the indigenous languages in Limpopo I spoke in English and they presumably translated. I have also spoken on SAfm. We have said it so many times, but I want to tell you once again that we as Cogta do not believe that there are purple ducks. Please believe me. Thank you.
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Nkosi Z M D MANDELA: Deputy Minister, I would like to know whether the possible amendment to the Bill to deal with the definition of residential properties will in any way prejudice the citizens of this country in regard to municipal property rates. If not, how will the amendment clarify the benefits?
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Yes, we have agreed that we will amend the ambiguity. Exactly what the wording will be will depend on the submissions we have received. In fact, we want to stress that before any hoo-ha was made by the opposition parties about this, we had already identified that there was some ambiguity there. So it is a matter of just tweaking a few words.
Chairperson, underlying this all is the fact that some of the questions that are being raised are not genuine concerns about the particular ambiguity in one clause, so much as the fact that many people out there, who are being mobilised in a particular way, want to reopen and rehash issues that were dealt with in 2003 and 2004 when we dealt with the original Local Government: Property Rates Bill. In fact, we spent over 320 hours on that Bill in formal sittings. Apart from the TRC Bill, at least until that stage, it was the Bill that had been most exhaustively dealt with. We also spent another 100 hours in informal sessions. What people are doing in our public exchange is they are bringing up all those old issues.
We understand that people are feeling anxious about paying property rates, especially in a climate where there is an economic challenge, and people are worried about nationalisation and so forth. Of course we understand that. We have said, as I say again on behalf of Cogta, we will make the necessary amendments and it will be very clear.
Of course, Parliament will make the final decision. The Bill is merely gazetted for public comment at this stage. Mind you, we had nine provincial public hearings even before the gazetted version was processed. We now have a large number of submissions, mostly around this particular clause. We will address them in the next two weeks. We are expecting the Bill to be in Parliament by the end of September. Mr Lorimer and everybody else will finally decide. May I remind you that the power does not reside with my Minister but with Parliament.
Question 74: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 77: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 74:
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the municipalities, of course, are owed about R64 billion by households, government and businesses. Government owes municipalities, sadly - shamefully, I might add - 4%, amounting to some R2,9 billion.
National Treasury, through their provincial treasury forums, looks at the debt owed to municipalities. The report, however, focuses on what is owed and very little attention is given to the payment of the debt, although this is being attended to increasingly. In fact, only yesterday in our Cabinet Committee meeting we discussed this very issue. Deputy Minister Nene made a submission about a report that is going to be in the public domain, I think, in the next month or so.
A task team has been established, comprising the Presidency, the National Treasury, our department and the Department of Public Works. The team has developed an action plan to systematically resolve the outstanding government debt and they also have apilot project going in eThekwini Municipality and the King Sabata Dalindyebo, KSD, Municipality in the Eastern Cape. The lessons learned from this pilot project will also be applied more generally, so that municipalities are better able to secure the funding that is owed to them.
Obviously we are improving the revenue enhancement strategies of municipalities, the billing systems and so on. In respect of government departments, sometimes they say, rightfully so - and sometimes it is just an excuse - that the billing that they have been given is not accurate, so the government departments are unable to pay.
The issue of securing the funds that are owed to municipalities is directly related to the issue of improvement of the billing systems of municipalities and we are giving attention to both. This is a big issue and we would like Parliament to take this up more stridently. We would also like the Parliamentary committees, both in finance and our committee, to take this up more and more. This is a big issue and we look forward to Parliament's playing a more active role in this regard. We welcome the question obviously. Thank you.
Mrs W J NELSON
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mrs W J NELSON: Thank you, Deputy Minister for your response. Are you able to inform us when you envisage having this debt to municipalities settled or at least down to 30 days? More or less what type of time frame are you looking at? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I am afraid that is a very challenging question. This issue has been with us almost since 1995, if I may say so. To expect that that R64 billion debt will dissipate over time is extremely difficult to entertain, frankly. It is a question of reducing the debt.
Also, we must recognise that some of the departments and some of the debtors of municipalities, like schools, clinics and the like, just don't have the resources. This too is an issue that will be addressed by the summit I referred to, hon member.
It is not something that we can resolve overnight. What we can seek to do over time is to reduce the debt. Maybe, I am speaking through my hat, as it were, if there is such an expression, but we should seek to have a target, maybe 10% or so, over the next few years. Expecting that the target will dissipate or disappear, or that the debt will evaporate, is a broader issue of the intergovernmental fiscal system.
Mr J J MCGLUWA
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Minister, it is expected that any normal ratepayer has an obligation to service their municipal accounts. Apart from the reason you told us with regard tothe billing problem, are there any other common reasons why these accounts have not been paid by your department? Safe to say, Minister, that it is common cause that your department should pay what is due to municipalities. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, yes, obviously, the billing system is only one of several reasons, and amongst them is the fact that municipalities don't necessarily have the financial management skills to secure the revenue that is due to them.
Secondly, there are a large number of indigents who simply cannot pay, and with the post-2008 global economic crisis and its effects on ourshores, some one million or more people have lost their jobs. That too means that the pressures on municipalities have increased.
Thirdly, there is a flow of migrants, both within the country to certain municipalities that are urban and seem to have better prospects for jobs, and also from outside our country, understandably, from Southern Africa and elsewhere. All of these pressures mean that there are large numbers of people who are in these municipalities who cannot afford to pay the debt owed to them.
I must also point out that businesses owe a significant amount of this debt. Really, it's unpardonable that you should have a business and not pay your basic service charges and your rates and the like.
In short, there is a wide range of reasons and as we improve the system of co-operative governance, improve the model of local government that we are seeking to improve, and improve our financial management skills at the level of local government, we will be in a better position to address this debt problem. However, it is a huge problem. It is going to be on our agenda for a while, but we can certainly reduce the debt.
Mr P F SMITH
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mr P F SMITH: The Deputy Minister is correct in saying that this item has been on our agenda every year since 1994-95. It is ridiculous.
I want to restrict my question to the government debt. It is true that billing problems do constitute one of the reasons, but one of the reasons why this debt is not paid by government is simply because the accounting officers are failing to do their job.
You will recall that in Gauteng two years ago there was a court case where the court held that if the MEC did not ensure a payment was made to the municipality promptly by the following week, the MEC would go to jail. That is how angry the litigants were in that case.
Two years ago, I put a question in this House about whether any accounting officers had ever been sanctioned for failure to fulfil their obligation to pay their debts. The answer then was, no.
Now I ask if it is not time that somebody takes a harder line with those who are responsible for paying the debts and who fail to do so.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, yes, I agree that the accounting officers of the relevant government departments should be held to account, but so should the politicians.
One good example I think provinces should emulate is this. In one province, in every second cabinet meeting a standard item on the agenda is the debt owed by the provincial departments to municipalities. It is high up on the agenda. The Premier expects the MEC's answer for the outstanding debt. That was certainly happening in one of the provincial cabinets. Whether it is happening now I am not sure. Something that Mr Smith has said makes us think that maybe we should engage through the relevant intergovernmental relations structures to seek to ensure this happens at the level of all the provincial cabinets.
We are taking a report to the national Cabinet in due course. The national Cabinet may also consider putting this issue on the agenda, maybe once a month, to see to it that national departments are paying the service, rates and other charges that they owe to municipalities.
As for accounting officers, I cannot speak here. I certainly don't have any mandate from my Minister or my department. However, it would seem reasonable to me that the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA - I see the Deputy Minister of Finance here - might provide for such a thing. I actually think that we should engage with Treasury around this, and I don't see in principle what is wrong with what Mr Smith is saying. However, when we get around to doing this and implementing it, we will, needless to say, never acknowledge that Mr Smith it was who first proposed the idea to us. However, he can rest assured that if it happens, he can go to sleep better at night. Thank you.
Mrs M WENGER
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Mrs M WENGER: Hon Deputy Minister, during our oversight visit to the provinces it was blatantly evident what causes the nondelivery of services - the debts not being paid by government departments.
Is the Deputy Minister's department willing to publish a monthly report so that we can see how this debt is being reduced on a month-to-month basis?
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, firstly, we should have some sense of perspective. It is 4% of the debt that government departments owe, but it is bad enough, I agree.
Secondly, can we do what you are asking? I will raise that with my Minister. In principle, some form of public statement in this regard at regular intervals seems to me to be reasonable at this stage. I will confer with the Minister and the other relevant Ministers and the department officials, who no doubt are taking notes while they are seated there, though I don't see them with any pens, but hopefully they are registering everything and we will follow up on it. Thank you.
Question 87: The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES:
Question 74: The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS
Question 87:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: House Chair, the Department for Women, Children and People with Disabilities provides monitoring and oversight to ensure that the Department of Basic Education and provincial Departments of Education support all schools, including schools for children with disabilities.
The support includes an annual budget allocated from the provinces, which is paid directly to the school to secure Learner and Teacher Support Material, LTSM, assistive devices and technologies, infrastructure maintenance, and learner transport subsidies, including employment of personnel. The department for Women, Youth, Children and People with Disabilities further ensures that special schools which participate in the inclusive education project are adequately supported.
Vukuzenzele Special School is one such example, which has been earmarked by the provincial Department of Education as a resource centre, with the added responsibilities of providing support to other schools within the district. The support that this school should provide to others includes providing them with access to specialist services. Being earmarked as a resource centre places the school at an advantage in that it has to receive additional resources from the department. The school has in the meantime employed a nurse aid. The school is implementing a programme which is intended to provide informal training to staff members of other schools in the area of special needs.
However, Vukuzenzele also has its own challenges of inadequate human resource capacity caused by the unattractive salaries which the school offers, resulting in critical staff, like social workers and the professional nurse, leaving for greener pastures. The school is designed to enrol 160 learners, but because of the need and the demand, the enrolment stands at 254 learners as we speak. Our department will work with the Department of Basic Education and the provincial Department of Education to ensure that there is adequate support to special schools, in particular to Vukuzenzele.
The department is in the process of conducting an audit for special schools with the aim of understanding the challenges faced by special schools, so that we can respond from an informed position. Our obligation, as enshrined in the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, article 24 on Education, is to ensure that all learners with disabilities realise their right to education without discrimination and with the appropriate support. It is for this reason that our department is so critical in the monitoring and implementation of these obligations in our country.
I thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister. I now recognise the hon Tlake, who will take the first supplementary question – the hon Tlake. There is no follow up question. I then recognise the hon Duncan.
Mrs P C DUNCAN
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mrs P C DUNCAN: House Chairperson and hon Minister, with reference to the annual performance plan of 2011-12, which highlights that an audit will be conducted of 480 special schools, is Vukuzenzele Special School included in this audit? Has the audit been conducted? Who conducted it and what are the relevant outcomes? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Yes, House Chair, Vukuzenzele will be part of this audit of special schools. This is a work in progress, and we will inform the portfolio committee once the audit is finished.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson and hon Minister, we have just come from oversight visits to the North West Province and Mpumalanga, and from visiting special schools and inclusive schools, and we didn't find any evidence of schools that have been helped by your department. Can the Minister give the number of schools in provinces that have been assisted financially by her department? Is the audit available? Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Minister, the question sounds like additional information is being required, but I will allow you to respond.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES:
Yes, I think this question should not come to our department. We don't fund schools - the Department of Basic Education and the provincial departments do that. As I said previously, we are still in the process of auditing. We have not finalised the audit yet. Once it is done, we will report to Parliament.
Mrs P C DUNCAN
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Mrs P C DUNCAN: Minister, you say "a work in progress". I understand that, but when will this audit be done? Then, can you perhaps tell us whether a service provider has been appointed to conduct the audit?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: We have started the audit. The department is doing the audit - we are not getting any service provider. As you know, we have limits in regard to the budget in this department. Secondly, the task is huge, we have very limited staff, and they have to go all over the country. Therefore, we will be able to table the report early next year. Thank you, Chairperson.
Question 82: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Question 87: The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Question 82:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Public servants have to manage their lives in order to balance public interests and private interests. This includes having interests in private businesses. This, of course, is mindful of policy and legislative positions that obtain at that moment.
I want to refer to two instances in this regard. Firstly, public servants are allowed to have interests in business, as long as they manage the potential conflict of interest through disclosure and recusal. Secondly, public servants are allowed to perform remunerative work outside of public service. This is what we generally refer to as Remunerated Work Outside Public Service, RWOPS.
We are in the process of reviewing this dispensation. Hence we have developed the framework on ethics and integrity to manage the following two behavioural questions: firstly, whether we should not ban public servants outright from having interests in business; and, secondly, whether we should not outlaw RWOPS, or performing of remunerative work outside public service, completely. These are not easy tasks. Hence we started the process of consultation.
This morning I had to address the portfolio committee in this regard. As we deal with these questions, we should deal with them mindful of the fact that these citizens of South Africa called, by their employment, public servants are on the other hand citizens who are entitled to particular rights.
We are looking at this and the possibility is that we might have to review some of the policy and legislative instruments that at the moment prescribe the conditions that obtain. I thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms A M DREYER
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Ms A M DREYER: Mr Chairperson, in September 2008 the Auditor-General released a report on entities connected with government employees doing business with national departments. The Auditor-General revealed that more than 2 000 government officials were involved in corruption worth more that R610 million. A year later, in August 2009, Parliament debated a motion on this very matter, urging Minister Baloyi to take disciplinary action against those officials. Another year later there was still no action. In September 2010 the DA submitted a private member's Bill to restrict officials from doing business with their own firms.
Minister, while you are still consulting, the Western Cape premier, Helen Zille, has signed into law the Western Cape Procurement (Business Interests of Employees) Act, restricting government employees with financial interests and entities from doing business with the provincial government. Now, the question is why Minister Baloyi has still not introduced a law to prevent government employees from doing business with their own firms?
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much hon, Chairperson. We took action on all those public servants that were involved in this as reported by the Auditor-General, AG. Statistics in regard to what we did, where, and to what extent, can be provided. If the hon member wanted me to respond and give an account of that, she should have framed the question otherwise and not talked about policy. There is a difference between talking about policy matters and giving an account of activities and what have been done. That has actually been done.
We addressed this issue of the member's private legislation proposal today. As we were addressing that, we gave an account of where we were. We addressed those issues. It is just that some people may be present physically in meetings but mentally outside. If that were not the case, the hon member would actually remember what we addressed and the portfolio committee noted.
We indicated that ours was a democracy that respected the separation of powers. It is for that reason that certain things are not possible. When we tabled a program early in the year, we said we were going to consider a review of the Public Service Act. One of the things that we wanted to address was exactly this. We committed ourselves to it. The consultation that is going on means that we believe that we live in a democracy in which you give space for a democratic process to unfold.
I'm not sure if the DA government in the Western Cape lives in another world where they don't know what is referred to as consultation. I am the Minister for the Public Service and Administration and we are actually looking into the steps that were taken and the process that was followed in order to enact that part of the legislation, and we will definitely challenge it as far as that is concerned. We are not doing so because we are saying we don't have to address this.
I put two key questions that we want to address. In fact it is more than these two questions. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.[Time expired.]
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, we appreciate it that you did clarify the matter that is being discussed at the moment in the portfolio committee today, particularly the ethics and integrity framework. We therefore believe that there has been much progress in addressing the matter of the civil servants that have business with government.
Further to that, we would like you to clarify to the House the introduction of the declaration of interests register that you announced would be rolled-out from the 23rd.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. We appreciate the position that the member has articulated. I want to indicate to all other hon members that there is an expression that goes:
Xitsonga:
Swandla swa hlantswana.[Two hands wash each other.]
English:
In that arrangement we say that in a true democratic dispensation, where you have the separation of powers, when one organ of state comes with a proposal, the other organ of state actively engages in the process. With that arrangement in mind, we thank the chair of the portfolio committee for the comment and we would like to invite all to come one board. Thank you very much.
Mr N SINGH
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, thank you very much. Hon Minister, there is no gainsaying that government employees who do business and have interests with government can cause a serious conflict of interest. I think this was uttered by my colleague hon Dreyer and stated in the Auditor-General's report.
Hon Minister, do you have a timeframe within which this policy that you are talking about can be presented to the House? This is a transversal matter and I think it is something that needs to be reported to the House when we have this kind of policy that will prevent them from doing business with government. Thank you.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much. Hon Chairperson, in managing conflicts of interest we are saying that we need to come with a dispensation that addresses a potential conflict of interest rather than waits for a conflict of interest to occur. That is why we are saying we need to confront this reality.
Are we satisfied with having our public servants being active in business and in providing services as public servants? The question is that we need to confront this reality so that we prevent the possibility that they may do business, and even do business with government itself.
The time frame is this. Within this financial year we are looking at coming up with the dispensation. That is why this consultation is taking place and we would like to conclude that soon. Thank you very much, hon Chair.
Question 85: The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION
Question 82: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Question 85:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: Chairperson, my thanks go to the hon Trollip. We as a country do not have an accepted definition of "decent work". The National Planning Commission uses the International Labour Organisation, ILO, definition; I just want to share that definition with the House. It reads:
Decent work has been defined by the ILO ...
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon, sir. On a point of order: You have actually jumped two questions. We should be dealing now with Question 88, and in actual fact we are dealing with the wrong question at this stage.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: What has the hon Ellis got against me, Chair? Can he own up to that? [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Yes, hon Minister, I think hon Ellis is correct.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: But what has he got against me, Chairperson? [Laughter.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, the only thing I have got against him is that I wanted a Minister who could answer questions properly to stand up first. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I think he intends giving you more time to look at the question! My apologies there. According to this Question Paper, yes, it is Question 88: Ms M F Tlake to ask the Minister of Women, Children and People with Disabilities.
Question 88: The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana)
Question 88:
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Thank you, Chair. The Department for Women, Children and People with Disabilities held a national Rural Women's Summit on 13 and 14 May 2011 in Tzaneen, Limpopo. More than 450 delegates representing women from different provinces, organisations and other relevant stakeholders attended the summit. The purpose of the summit was to create a platform where rural women could articulate their challenges, concerns and needs in a collaborative way. Rural women also made an input during the National Women's Conference that was held from 1 to 3 August 2011.
The department will be running road shows in different provinces, where we will inform rural women in particular about departmental programmes and plans. We will also have provincial summits, starting from September this year. Here, rural women will be able to come out and make an input in regard to the plan of action for their empowerment. We will be working with the Departments of Rural Development and Land Reform, Agriculture, Social Development, Energy, Water and Environmental Affairs, and Transport in order to address some of the key priorities and concerns that have been raised by rural women, both at the summit and at the national conference.
The areas of concern are: access to finance; access to land; access to markets for their products; and access to energy, water and roads, particularly rural roads. We will be working with the Department of Trade and Industry to encourage rural women to set up co-operatives and small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, that will assist them in creating jobs.
We are working with the Department of Economic Development to ensure that women also benefit from the job opportunities that will be created in the various sectors that have been identified in the New Growth Path, and also in the job fund that was announced by the President in his state of the nation address. I thank you, Chairperson.
Ms M F TLAKE
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Ms M F TLAKE: Hon Chairperson, I withdraw my follow-up question, because the Minister has already answered the question by saying that a conference was held where rural women were involved, and there are means, such as networking with other departments and road shows. So, I withdraw, with due respect.
Mrs P C DUNCAN: Chairperson, hon Minister, I am quite aware of the summit and the number of Ministers who committed themselves to the sectors in the Ministry for Women, Children and People with Disabilities. However, I would like to know how many formal memorandums of understanding, MOUs, have been signed with the relevant national departments, especially with regard to the transferring of skills and economic empowerment of women in rural areas. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Chairperson, we have signed an MOU with the Minister of Health to look at campaigns where we will fight HIV and Aids, and particularly their impact on women and children. We are also in the process of signing an agreement, an MOU, with the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform. Our directors-general are talking, and they are finalising the plan for a women's rural development strategy.
We are also talking to the Minister of Economic Development, Minister Patel. Our directors-general are finalising a document that will ensure that the New Growth Path is indeed engendered, and that it has targets that will be inclusive of gender in terms of the five million jobs that we have committed to in the next 10 years. We are saying that 50% of those jobs – and even more – should go to women and young women.
We are also looking at various enterprises, including the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, and Khula, to ensure that they will prioritise women's projects in terms of funding. I thank you.
Prof C T MSIMANG
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Chairperson, the Minister listed a number of challenges that confront rural women in their efforts to improve their lot. Amongst these she identified the lack of access to funding and the lack of markets. What we would like to know is how the Minister helped in those instances. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Chairperson, we had a National Women's Conference from 1 to 3 August, and we invited most of the Ministers to come and share with the women the opportunities that are available and the programmes in their departments.
I think over 15 Ministers came to the conference. One of them was the Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform. He assured women that access to land would be a priority, and that the Recapitalisation Fund and Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme, CASP, and other funding in the agricultural sector would target rural women. We also had Minister Patel, who came to the conference. He assured us, as I said, that over 50% of the jobs would go to women, and over 50% of funding from Khula would go to women.
Ours, therefore, hon member, will be to monitor and ensure that what the Ministers have pledged and committed to is actually done. We had the Ministers of Energy and Mineral Resources, and the Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry - so many of them were there. All we are going to do is to follow up and ensure that they keep to their pledges and they actually deliver to the rural women in our country. Thank you.
Question 84: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Question 88: The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
Question 84:
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Collective bargaining processes provide for a mechanism to develop a plan to manage the involvement of essential services workers in industrial action. The plan is referred to as a minimum service dispensation. It is meant to ensure that whereas workers in general have a right to strike, essential services workers have to have their rights balanced with the nature of their work.
We identified categories of workers that are considered essential services workers and gazetted such accordingly. This plan, the minimum service dispensation, has not yet been agreed upon at the collective bargaining council level and we are due to finalise this soon.
Yesterday, at around two o'clock, 81% of unions participating in the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, PSCBC, signed a resolution together with us as the government and employer to address this matter. We agreed that we needed to elevate the consideration of this matter to party principals. All that that means is that when it comes to the issue of dealing with essential services and having to find a dispensation that will be workable so that there is no disruption of such services, party principals have to lead the process.
This is a breakthrough, because all that it means is that instead of dealing with this matter as an ordinary negotiations matter, we will actually be dealing with it at a much higher level. I am leading that process and we are looking at concluding this matter by December this year. Thank you very much.
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, we obviously acknowledge the constitutional right of workers to strike but, as you mentioned in your response, this question refers to essential services workers. If this category of workers strike, people's lives are very often at stake. Just as striking is a constitutional right, Minister, so is the right to live. What is the Minister going to do about essential services workers compromising people's lives in the short-term and in the long-term? I appreciate, Minister, that you have partly responded to that.
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much. I fully agree with hon member Schalkwyk that the situation of essential workers is a very serious one and that we need to address it.
It is for that reason that we are saying that we need to find a mechanism to deal with this. It is international best practice that when you deal with a situation where on the one hand the constitution grants rights to people, including essential workers, and on the other hand you have to balance that with the provisions of the labour relations dispensation, in dealing with issues related to essential services you have to be mindful that those services that hon Van Schalkwyk is referring to are not disrupted. The question that the hon Schalkwyk is asking is a very important one. That is why we are saying that we are dealing with it. Let us all soil our hands and come December let us have a dispensation, and it will be fine.
I can guarantee that the 81,8% support of this year's negotiations by our unions yesterday suggests that as of now we are not anticipating a strike based on this and other demands. Therefore, we are safe to move forward until we find a new dispensation without having to actually experience such disruptions. Thank you very much.
Question 85: The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana)
Question 84: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION
Question 85:
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): My apologies again, Minister.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: Thank you, Chairperson. Do you have the hon Ellis's approval for me to answer the question at this stage?
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairman, the only reason why we asked the hon Manuel to wait until a bit later was to make sure that he was here at the end of question time today, and it worked very well indeed. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: Thank you very much, Chair, and thanks again to the hon Trollip for the question.
As I started saying before I was so rudely interrupted, South Africa does not have a fixed definition of "decent work", but we have, for the purposes of evaluation by the National Planning Commission, used the International Labour Organisation, ILO's, definition, which reads:
Decent work has been defined by the ILO and endorsed by the international community as being productive work for women and men in conditions of freedom, equity, security and human dignity. Decent work involves opportunities for work that is productive and delivers a fair income; provides security in the workplace and social protection for workers and their families; offers better prospects for personal development and encourages social integration; gives people the freedom to express their concerns, to organize and to participate in decisions that affect their lives; and guarantees equal opportunities and equal treatment for all.
We built this into the vision statement because it is aspirational, it's about 2030,and we believe that it will be in the interests of all South Africans, and all of South Africa certainly, to have people in decent work.
I think we recognise at the same time that there is an imperative in regard to jobs. Not all jobs, to start with, will comply with all of the criteria set out in the ILO definition. However, as skills improve, as productivity improves and as the economy grows, there will be a lot more certainty, and as you proceed you can measure performance against that. I think that's the kind of perspective that we have taken in the National Planning Commission, bothin the diagnosis and in respectofthe elements of the vision statement. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Chairperson, I expected a better response from the Minister and I was wanting to say that it was worth waiting all this time for his response!
The main body of my question was about actual job creation, after the diagnostic review of the National Planning Commission. I endorse the fact that the aspirational objective of the government to create decent work is something that will first start with the creation of jobs, which will then become decent.
The National Planning Commission has identified education and employment as the most pressing national challenges facing this country. In the light of the current debate about South Africa's high levels of unemployment and a backlog in achieving the job creation targets, do you, Minister, support Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan's admission that South Africa's restrictive labour laws need to be relaxed in order for the rate of job creation to be accelerated?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: Chairperson, I want to repeat what the diagnostic document broadly states, that one of the key challenges in South Africa is that there are too few South Africans in employment. Employment in the age cohort 18 to 60 stands at 41%, while our peer group countries tend to have an employment rate at around the two-thirds mark. So there are too few pay packets and the market is too small. Inequality is a direct consequence of that.
We are also saying that there is a causal relationship between poor educational outcomes and the rate of labour absorption. These issues must be fixed. And so, the ability to have everybody in decent employment is also a consequence of the transformation of the education system. But you cannot wait for the next generation. These issues must be dealt with, and they must be dealt with sensitively.
It is very important that as a nation we recognise what impediments obtain and work through them. We should not mount high horses that we then cannot dismount later. I think the obligation is to offer all families an opportunity to participate in the economy and to raise their living standards, and that's an agreement we must strike. It's going to be essential that we are able to set these as benchmarks and build off a platform.
We cannot try and construct obstacles to employment creation. That is because we are seeing, at the same time, that the economy is becoming less and less competitive globally, and our manufacturing sector is bleeding at the moment. We have not been able to recover the million jobs lost in 2008-09. That impact is felt, not by the ideologues, but in the lives of people, and it is for that that we as South African must put our shoulders to the wheel. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION
Mr N SINGH: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Minister, as part of the National Planning Commission's forward planning - I mean, "Planning" is what they are called, so there is forward planning – do you believe that they should investigate what is stated in subsection (3) here, that they should "investigate a labour regime of decreasing labour market regulations"? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: You know, part of what we must avoid is deepening the chasms. At the moment there are issues that separate us. On Monday this week the Minister of Finance spoke about the issue and asked that we have an open mind. By this morning, the public broadcaster had committed the After 8 Debate to this kind of issue, so we are actually deepening the chasm. It's unhelpful. It's unhelpful, and I'm saying that the impact is felt in the lives of the poor and unemployed. That is a measure, and that's where, as Joe Stiglitz said, you actually begin to see and feel the lack of self esteem.
There is nothing worse than for families not to have an income. That's the challenge. Leave aside everything else. The key issue that we must get our heads around is how we will respond to that challenge as a nation. If that is the approach, I think we have a starting point.
If we try to construct a divide, then I think we take collective responsibility for weakening the economy, but more importantly, for weakening the ability of poor families to get out of that deep, deep trough of poverty, and intergenerational poverty especially. Thank you.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, I don't think anyone in this House would disagree with your definitionand the explanation of what we need to do as a country. The question, however, was: do you agree with Minister Gordhan's assertion that we will have to look at restrictive labour legislation if we are to create more jobs in the economy?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION: I have looked at the full text of Minister Gordhan's speech and, as with so many other issues in the country, that is one little snippet of a widerspeech. Ithink, all of what he said is a position that I would endorse wholeheartedly. We must have nothing stand in the way of job creation in this country. Thank you. [Applause.] Chair, was my reply worth waiting for? I need to check with the hon Trollip. [Interjections.]
Mrs S V KALYAN
Question 85: The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: NATIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mrs S V KALYAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:
That the House debates South Africa's negotiating position on climate change in preparation for the Conference of the Parties in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, in December 2011.
Mr M SWART
Ms S V KALYAN
Mr M SWART: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House–
(1) debates the progress to date of Parliament's mandate to set up a budget office as prescribed in clause 15 of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act, which was passed by this House two years ago; and
(2) comes up with measures to speed up the implementation of the budget office.
Ms B T NGCOBO
Mr M SWART
Ms B T NGCOBO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:
That the House debates mechanisms to improve facilities and resources at neonatal wards at public hospitals.
Thank you.
Mr G R MORGAN
Ms B T NGCOBO
Mr G R MORGAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House–
(1) debates the health of South Africa's rivers and dams, which contain a threat posed by poor water quality to human and environmental health; and
(2) comes up with solutions to improve the situation.
Thank you.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mr G R MORGAN
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House debates the status of teacher councillors.
Thank you.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
Mr A M MPONTSHANE
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House–
(1) debates the state of the Maritime Authority; and
(2) comes up with solutions on how to ensure that it properly fulfils its mandate.
Thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Mr M S F DE FREITAS
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF WORLD'S INDIGENOUS PEOPLE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that in 1994 the United Nations General Assembly decided that the International Day of the World's Indigenous Peoples should be observed on 9 August every year during the International Decade of the World's Indigenous Peoples;
(2) further notes that the theme for this year is: "Indigenous designs: celebrating stories and cultures, crafting our own future";
(3) recognises that in 2004 the UN General Assembly proclaimed a Second International Decade of the World's Indigenous Peoples through Resolution 59/174 and that the goal of the Second Decade was to further the "strengthening of international co-operation for the solution of problems faced by indigenous people in such areas as culture, education, health, human rights, the environment and social and economic development by means of action-oriented programmes and specific projects, increased technical assistance and relevant standard-setting activities;
(4) further recognises concerns about the precarious economic and social situations that indigenous people continue to endure in many parts of the world in comparison to the overall population, and the persistence of grave violations of their human rights; and
(5) supports all initiatives to promote and protect the rights and freedoms of indigenous people.
Agreed to.
Mr M J ELLIS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
TRAGIC EVENTS IN NORWAY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes with sadness the recent tragic events that unfolded in Norway, including a bombing at a government building in the capital of Oslo, followed by the mass shooting at a youth camp on a nearby island;
(2) further notes the death of over 95 people in these events that have been linked to a Norwegian citizen apparently opposed to the idea of a multicultural society;
(3) extends its sincere condolences to the Norwegian government, its leadership, the citizenry and the families of those who tragically lost their lives; and
(4) condemns such acts of terror and trusts that the perpetrator will be brought to speedy justice.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Mr M J ELLIS
INTERNATIONAL YOUTH DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that on 17 December 1999 the United Nations General Assembly passed Resolution 54/120 I, which endorsed the recommendation made by the World Conference of Ministers Responsible for Youth, that 12 August be declared International Youth Day;
(2) further notes that the theme for this year's International Youth Day is "Change our World", whichis meant to be a call to inspire youth initiatives at all levels with the idea that efforts at the local level can have a global impact;
(3) calls for continual and long-lasting progress in areas of societal development that concern our youth; and
(4) supports all government initiatives to alleviate the plight of the youth and encourages partnerships with the private sector and civil society.
Agreed to.
Mr M J ELLIS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
SUCCESS OF KEVIN ANDERSON ON ATP WORLD TOUR
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes the recent success and progress of South Africa's top-ranked tennis player, Kevin Anderson, on the ATP World Tour;
(2) further notes that Anderson, who currently holds a world ranking of 35, last week beat Andrew Murray, the world number 4, in the Roger Cup in Montreal, Canada;
(3) acknowledges that Anderson yesterday swept past Belgian Xavier Malisse in straight sets to reach the second round of the Western and Southern Open Tennis Tournament in Cincinnati;
(4) further acknowledges that with these recent victories Anderson is well prepared moving into the US Open, which starts in New York on 29 August 2011; and
(5) congratulates Anderson on his current form and wishes him well for the 2011 US Open.
Agreed to.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
Mr M J ELLIS
INTERNATIONAL KIDS LITERARY QUIZ IN NEW ZEALAND
(Draft Resolution)
THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that Grade 7 pupils, Alexandra Breckenridge, Matthew Robbins, Emily Spencer and Sarah Herrington represented South Africa in the International Kids Literary Quiz in New Zealand, taking on teams from the UK, US, Canada and New Zealand at the annual event, which took place on 19 July 2011 and tests the literary knowledge of children between 10 and 13; and
(2) congratulates the pupils and teachers from Manor Gardens Primary School in Durban for winning the 2011 Literary Quiz with 51 points against Summit Heights Public School from Canada.
Agreed to.
Mr M J ELLIS
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY
UNITED NATIONS WORLD HUMANITARIAN DAY
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I move without notice:
That the House–
(1) notes that 19 August 2011 is celebrated as the United Nations World Humanitarian Day;
(2) further notes the dedication, assistance and contributions by governments, humanitarian aid agencies, other nongovernmental organisations and individuals that contribute to humanitarian aid efforts;
(3) recognises that this day is significant in the light of the famine in the Horn of Africa, most notably in Somalia, where millions of people face starvation; and
(4) calls upon all South Africans and the international community to assist where possible in the humanitarian plight of those in need across the globe.
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 17:11.
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