Hansard: Appropriation Bill: Debate on Vote No 4 – Home Affairs
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 13 Apr 2010
Summary
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Minutes
WEDNESDAY, 14 APRIL 2010
PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE – OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER
Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly Chamber at 15:01.
House Chairperson Mr K O Bapela, as Chairperson, took the Chair.
Mr K O Bapela
The House Chairperson (Mr K O Bapela): Hon members, we will not repeat meditation and prayers because we had that in the National Assembly.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Debate)
Debate on Vote No 4 – Home Affairs
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, hon members of the Assembly, members of the portfolio committee, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and distinguished guests, may I take this opportunity to recognise the presence of leaders of various legal entities that support the work of Home Affairs. These include the CEO and the chairperson of the Film and Publications Board, Ms Thoko Mpumlwana and Ms Makhasi; acting chairperson of the Refugee Appeals Board, Mr Tjerk Damstra; chief executive officer of Government Printing, Mr Tom Moyane; chairpersons of some of the newly formed Home Affairs stakeholder forums, councillor Winneth Mtolo from Sisonke and councillor Winile Ngavile from O R Tambo Municipality.
My gratitude goes to the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee of Home Affairs, hon Ben Martins, and the entire committee for their support, robust interaction and oversight. May I express my gratitude to the Deputy Minister, hon Malusi Gigaba; the senior management of the department and all those officials who are honest and hardworking.
Hon Chairperson, April is a highly significant month in the history of our country. Sadly, it marks the date on which the process of our oppression began, with the landing of Jan van Riebeeck on our shores. Happily, April is also when it ended, with the attainment of our democracy. Critically, April reminds us of the supreme sacrifices that people of this country made in order for us to be here and to achieve peace, freedom, democracy and justice while reclaiming our dignity.
Therefore, in this month we have to remember some of our heroes, our patriots, our revolutionaries whom we should all emulate; people like Comrade Chris Hani, the late president O R Tambo and comrade Solomon Mahlangu. Let me take this opportunity to salute his brother, who is with us today in the gallery. [Applause.]
We also join the National Assembly in extending our heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of the late Deputy Minister of Health, Dr Molefi Paul Sefularo. Our thoughts and prayers reach out to his wife, Kgomotso, and their children.
Hon members, in the context of 2010 being designated "the year of action"by the President of the Republic in his state of the nation address, we will redouble our efforts to speed up and improve the quality of service delivery.
In the Budget Vote speech last year, we committed to a concerted registration and identity-document campaign over the next two years, directed at consolidating a secure and accurate National Population Register, NPR.
Led by President Jacob Zuma, we launched the registration and identity-document campaign on 23 March 2010 at Libode in the Eastern Cape, after having piloted it in the Sisonke and O R Tambo District municipalities.
It is worth noting that we are also establishing forums nationally with a view to involving the citizenry directly in service delivery by monitoring performance, combating corruption and providing support, both to Home Affairs and to citizens who are experiencing problems.
The strategic outcomes of this campaign are: first, entrenching the culture of registering the birth of every child within 30 days of delivery; second, issuing identity documents to every South African of 16 and older; third, discontinuing the late registration of births. To this end, we registered 1,147 000 children and adults last year. Of those, 354 588 were people who were registered for the first time and who where over the age of 16. We hope we will indeed complete the late registration drive and do away with it. Due to the intensity of the campaign, we also issued 834 353 identity documents to first-time applicants, which is 200 000 more than in the previous year.
Fourth, we are also reviewing legislation pertaining to the registration of births, deaths and marriages. Fifth, the ID campaign has started. Therefore, we urge all politicians to join us in the campaign now and not wait for the 2011 local government elections to take place, since there will be no such special campaign then.
Hon members, South Africa is about to witness a momentous and historic occasion for our country and, indeed, our continent, Africa: the most beautiful spectacle in the world, the 2010 Fifa World Cup. We would like to reiterate the readiness of our government and people to host a successful 2010 Fifa World Cup in this land of Shaka, Moshoeshoe, Sekhukhune, Hintsa, Makhado and others. Home Affairs stands ready to welcome the multitude of soccer-loving fans from across the globe: Africa, Asia, America, Europe, Oceania, South America, the Middle East and the Gulf.
Our contribution to the successful hosting of 2010 World Cup includes the first-ever and historic "event visa" to facilitate the movement of spectators and visitors from around the world. All spectators in possession of a Fifa match ticket are eligible to apply for the event visa, free of charge, following the normal procedures at South African diplomatic missions.
We have introduced the advanced passenger processing system for airlines flying into South Africa. This system enables the screening of passengers before they depart for South Africa. The training of airline liaison officers was recently completed and their deployment will begin in May to assist airlines to verify travel documents and personal particulars presented by travellers in the country of departure.
There will be dedicated express lanes at selected international airports and co-located border posts with neighbouring countries. A 24-hour operational centre in Pretoria has been established to provide statistical information for operational planning and incident reporting in liaison with security agencies.
In collaboration with Sars and other relevant departments, we are implementing an enhanced movement control system to facilitate the secure movement of people in and out of the country in preparation for the 2010 Fifa World Cup. The system is being piloted at O R Tambo International Airport and will be rolling out to 34 priority ports of entry before the World Cup.
We also promise to fight the scourge of corruption which is affecting not only Home Affairs but society in general. We have enhanced our counter-corruption strategy while elevating the counter corruption and security unit into a fully fledged branch, which will be led by a deputy director-general. We have also appointed counter-corruption specialists to further capacitate that branch.
Progress has been made in enhancing the security of our systems. We have upgraded and extended the use of biometric access control to prevent illegal access to the department's systems and thus ensure an audit trail and accountability. Another important counter-corruption measure is the inclusion of the details of the mother on the birth certificate, while enhancing its security features.
In our intensive efforts to improve and enhance operational efficiencies, the department has made significant progress on the following: First, the passport backlog, which we talked about in our last Budget Vote , has been eliminated. In 40 offices where the live-capture in biometrics is available, the turnaround time for passports is now between 14 and 30 days. Second, the track and trace system has been extended to cover the registration of births, marriages, deaths, passports and some immigration permits. This has expedited processes and enhanced security while enabling us to contact citizens via SMS. Third, we have improved access to Home Affairs services by establishing 21 new facilities. Members will remember that last year we said we will open 13 offices, but we are happy to report that we exceeded that, and we opened 21. [Applause.] A new refugee reception centre was also opened in Musina. There has been an aggressive campaign using mobile units to access rural areas and schools.
Fourth, to get Home Affairs front offices right, we are piloting an electronic queue management system that will function by providing ticket numbers to the clients. It also informs clients on their approximate waiting time while reducing congestion in public areas. We are piloting this at Khayelitsha and it has reduced the waiting time from 45 to 25 minutes. Fifth, we have successfully relocated the refugee reception centre, which was a problem last year, from Nyanga to Maitland. The Maitland office is bigger, better and more efficient. Sixth, our refugee reception centres are now issuing asylum-seeker permits within one day, unlike previously, which was within a week. [Applause.]
Hon members, despite these achievements, more needs to be done to complete the sustainable transformation of the Department of Home Affairs. Our priorities for this financial year, among others, are: First, ensuring an accurate, credible and secure National Population Register and that birth will be the only entry point into our population register. To that end, we have connected 142 hospitals to Home Affairs systems, so that mothers can register their babies even before they leave the hospitals. [Applause.] In this financial year, we will be connecting 120 more. Second, we will also be opening 10 new front offices to extend our footprint. Third, we are happy that the KwaZulu-Natal MEC for Social Development, Dr Meshack Radebe, has agreed that their one-point development centres will also give space to Home Affairs. That will allow us to get into rural areas where we don't have offices. Third, we are undertaking a review on immigration policy, especially to try and separate the economic migrants from genuine asylum seekers. We have started consultations on this process because we understood that we couldn't just sit and legislate from our offices but needed to consult. We have started with Cosatu and we will also be consulting with various stakeholders in the coming months, and eventually we will bring legislation here in Parliament.
Fourth, we are committed to achieving an unqualified audit within one year and a clean audit within two years. I know this is not easy but that's what we are aiming for. The internal audit and risk management functions have been strengthened and controls are being implemented. Such controls include a new revenue receiving system which has been installed in l00 high-volume offices. Sixth, we are putting infrastructure in place in all our front offices to ensure our readiness when the smart card is introduced, hopefully in the next financial year.
Seventh, there is a need to re-orientate Home Affairs officials and introduce change interventions in order to engender an ethos of pride and service excellence. We will develop a workforce that is self-motivated, ethical, competent and accountable. Eighth, a learning centre is being established and will be the vehicle for the training of staff, not only in these values but also in increasing their competencies. Lastly, we have appointed the deputydirector-generals and filled the posts that were vacant last year, except the chief information officer's post and the newly created post of Deputy Director-General Counter Corruption. A number of critical chief directors and director posts have been filled.
Hon Chairperson, we would like to take this opportunity to introduce our new Director-General, Mr Mkuseli Apleni, appointed on 01 April 2010. It wasn't an April fool's joke. He was appointed. [Applause.]
We express our gratitude for the services of our outgoing Director-General, Mr Mavuso Msimang, and wish him well in his future endeavors. Other details will be given by the Deputy Minister. I would like to say, in conclusion, I am confident that with your support, hon members, and that of society at large, we will succeed in building and transforming Home Affairs - building on that foundation that has been laid as the department of excellence and as an employer of choice. I hope that this Budget Vote will meet your support and approval. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, Minister. [Applause.] Order! Minister, you were able to save two minutes from your time. You didn't finish your speech in 20 minutes but in 18 minutes. Well done! So you will add those two minutes at the end.
Mr B A D MARTINS
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O BAPELA)
Mr B A D MARTINS: Chairperson, esteemed hon Members of Parliament, hon Minister of Home Affairs, hon Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, valued stakeholders, distinguished guests, I thank the hon Minister, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, for her honest and frank appraisal of work done, work in progress and challenges faced by the department.
It is common cause that transparent and accountable governance is strengthened when comprehensive, objective and critical departmental documents are tabled for public scrutiny and legislative oversight. The Minister's argument in defence of her Budget Vote has just borne testimony to this principle.
In linking performance targets to budgeted expenditure, she has provided Members of Parliament with information on how the department is spending money authorised by the legislature, thus enabling Parliament and society to keep the department and its agencies, namely the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, the Government Printing Works, GPW, and the Film and Publications Board, FPB, accountable for service delivery commitments.
In keeping with its oversight responsibility, the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs will continue to engage the Department of Home Affairs and the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, without fear or favour with regard to financial procurement and other issues pertaining to the "Who am I online" and smart card identity document projects.
The "Who am I online" project is supposed to form a part of the department's information technology strategy objectives, along with the Home Affairs National Identification System, Hanis, which, in turn, includes the smart card. The information technology objectives of the department fall within its broader service delivery objectives and the objectives of its turnaround strategy.
Furthermore, the "Who am I online" project is expected to eliminate waste and reduce the cost of providing services to the public. With this project the department means to switch from the use of paper-based to a paperless system where all transactions are processed online and in real time. We therefore urge the department to finalise matters relating to this project and the smart card identity document project, which was suspended by the Minister in order to conduct a forensic investigation into tender processes which were not completed by Sita. Matters relating to these two important projects have dragged on for too long.
With challenges here and there, the department's turnaround strategy continues to bear fruit. Better and friendlier services are rendered and promoted, and the scourge of corruption continues to be fought wherever it rears its ugly head. There is still a long way to go, but the positive gains which are being made are seen by the public and acknowledged.
The department continues to fulfil its civic function of acting as the custodian of citizenship and identity. It regulates immigration, which remains critical for development and security. It further enforces the Immigration Act and determines the status of asylum seekers and refugees in accordance with its international obligations and the Bill of Rights.
The benefit of hindsight reveals that budget accountability has historically focused mainly on targeting the performance of government departments and agencies at the output level. Government has now adopted an approach which provides a new methodology that is focused on the attainment of a number of desirable outcomes using measurable outputs and well-defined activities to achieve better value, as well as better value for money. The department's policy priorities for 2010-11 seek to meet government's new prescripts. It does this largely through providing the necessary documents for citizens and migrants to access social services and the economy.
In this regard, it has had a key role to play in better facilitating access to several of the priorities in the 12 desired outcomes outlined by the Presidency earlier this year, which include the following: In education, it facilitates the registration of students for identity documents in schools and the phasing out of late registration of births. In health, there is an expanded capacity for the registration of births and deaths in hospitals but much more is needed, especially in rural areas. In the fight against corruption and crime, the department continues to fire and discipline corrupt officials while also improving the monitoring of income and expenditure systems.
It is noted that the department and two of its entities, namely the Government Printing Works and the Film and Publications Board, received qualified audits last year. We hope that this will change this current year.
The Independent Electoral Commission needs to be commended for its sterling performance and unqualified audit. [Applause.] The Independent Electoral Commission continues to perform exceptionally well and all signs show that we can expect an even better-planned and executed local government election next year.
With regard to the economy, access to documents provided by the department is crucial and the improved delivery times of documents assist applicants. However, reports of identity document application problems still abound, and need to be addressed and monitored continuously.
With regard to skills, facilitating the improved procurement of skills by companies through better corporate accounts procedures is crucial for the economy but needs to be balanced against the socioeconomic and security needs of South Africa.
With regard to rural development, we have seen an expansion of the capacity and footprint of the department in rural areas, as well as a sharing of resources in the combined government service/Thusong Centres, thereby improving service delivery and cost efficiency.
The department's policy priorities for 2010-11 seek to meet government's new prescripts and include the following: one, affirming, recording and securing the identity of all citizens and other individuals who live in South Africa; two, facilitating and regulating immigration in the interest of national security and development; three, ensuring that departmental officials respond to the needs of all citizens by delivering an accessible, honest, caring and efficient service.
Of crucial concern this year are the commitments made to Fifa for the 2010 World Cup. In this regard the department has improved the related delivery of travel documents, as witnessed on the recent multiportfolio committee visits to border posts and Fifa World Cup host cities. Initiatives include a new events visa being rolled out, having airline liaison officers in countries participating in the World Cup and advanced passenger registration, all of which will improve the speed of processing the arrival and welcoming of guests during this exciting event. The department's role in achieving these outcomes largely requires co-operation from other departments.
In conclusion, the Constitution of the Republic Of South Africa guarantees everyone dignity and the right to have their dignity respected and protected. It is through the interventions of the Department of Home Affairs that citizens and foreign nationals are given access to government services in order to make their lives better. The ANC supports Vote No 4. Together, we can do more. [Applause.]
Ms J F TERBLANCHE
Mr B A D MARTINS
Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, members and colleagues. In my budget speech last year I acknowledged the fact that the Minister is open and honest about the problems facing this department and is committed to turning it around. There are, indeed, many improvements to be seen in certain areas: a number of critical posts have been filled, a new passport system is in place and, through the work of the Anti-Corruption Unit, a number of corrupt officials were suspended. Furthermore, the National Population Registration Campaign was launched on 23 March and will hopefully go a long way towards ensuring the integrity of the National Population Register.
However, a lot of work still needs to be done before some of the serious challenges the department is facing have been dealt with and in order for the department to give our citizens and immigrants the world-class service they deserve.
In the department's 2008-09 annual report, the Auditor-General delivered a qualified opinion and raised several urgent matters. The most shocking is departmental revenue amounting to R365 million which cannot be accurately assessed due to the lack of an audit trail. Irregular expenditure to the amount of R198,2 million has also been recorded. This is simply unacceptable.
Equally unacceptable is the situation where one of the entities of Home Affairs, the Government Printing Works, appears before the portfolio committee and reports that the department owes them R126 million for the printing of the new passports since April 2009. Minister, I hope you will be able to recall that this amount has since been paid, and that measures were put in place to prevent a recurrence. I have asked a parliamentary question about this matter, but this question and some others have not yet been responded to.
With reference to Immigration Services, huge concerns remain about the treatment that economic migrants and asylum seekers receive in our country. I hope that the new immigration policy as well as amendments to the Refugees Act and Regulations will address this. I would like to ask the Minister whether there is a target date for the finalisation of this policy.
Yesterday afternoon we received notice that we will have a briefing by the department and the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, on the forensic audit report next week. Hopefully the mystery will be solved at last and perhaps some progress will be made with regard to the smart ID card.
I would also like to take the opportunity to thank two officials in the Operational Response Unit, Melanie Shaaban and Annie Bodlo, for their continued assistance with the constant flow of problems that arrive in my inbox. For the sake of this debate, I would like to read two extracts from such cases. Phumzile Lassiter wrote:
I am only praying to God that you guys still remember me, because today I can say it out loud that my children have clearly become the victims of South African Home Affairs. A few months ago, I wrote a letter to thank you guys for taking part in helping me and my children, and I still would like to say "thanks" again.
However, something must have gone really wrong, because even though their ID numbers show me as their mother when pulled from the system, the microfilm from the regional Home Affairs still prints their grandmother's name as their mother on the full birth certificate.
We applied and waited four months for this full birth certificate after the amendment, which took three years and eight months, was completed back in October 2009. Now I am being told that no one knows what is going on, and that I need to reapply and wait for four months again. I say, "No, this should have been done more than three years ago, and my children should not suffer any longer."
Please, I am pleading as a mother to you, as mothers too, let's stop the suffering of our South African children, even if it's one family at a time.
The next one is from David Jankelowitz, who wrote:
I am having an unbelievable issue with Home Affairs that I am pulling my hair to resolve. I first applied for an unabridged birth certificate for my son on 26 November 2009. I was told that it would take six to 12 weeks to complete. I am now into week 20. I lodged the application at Randburg Home Affairs, where they told me that, to follow up going forward, I must call the call centre.
Mr Jankelowitz did phone the call centre, 16 times, after which he went back to the Randburg branch on 11 March and reported the following:
People there were very unwilling to assist me and told me that the manager was on leave. At this point, I feel like my hands are tied behind my back as I am powerless to obtain a document that I am legally entitled to, have paid for, and also followed the correct procedures to obtain. I am desperately looking for assistance in this regard.
I receive complaints like these on a daily basis from citizens who are frustrated and disillusioned by the service rendered by the Department of Home Affairs. Minister, I am sure you will agree – our citizens deserve better. [Applause.]
Ms Z B BALINDLELA
MS J F TERBLANCHE
Ms Z B BALINDLELA: Chairperson, hon Minister, in our African culture one's identity is always linked with the question of where one's umbilical cord is buried. The answer to this is: in the kraal. I think all of us, including you Minister: our umbilical cords are buried in the kraal. It is through identification documentation that all South Africans have access to an identity. This provides citizens with a sense of dignity and access to our freely given constitutional rights. So, really, the new kraal in this sense becomes the Department of Home Affairs.
It is at Home Affairs where we begin the journey of identity. If Home Affairs grinds to a halt, so does all our identities. If our identity is stolen, we cease to be. If we are married without our knowledge, we are locked into something from which it is hard to extricate ourselves. If we are old but our identity document falsely states that we are in fact young, we lose out on pensions. If our identity document states that we are dead whereas we are alive, and, similarly, if we are males but the document states that we are females, we are truly in a difficult situation. [Applause.] Therefore, we really appeal to Home Affairs to work swiftly, systematically and honestly to address this issue, which lies at the core of all South Africans and their identity.
IsiXhosa:
Mphathiswa bendiphethe neyam buqu ndizama ukutshintsha igama lam lasekhaya ndifake elasemzini. Okokoko ke ndihleli ndilinde impendulo ukusuka kumhla we-10 kuDisemba mhla ndenza isicelo soko. Namhlanje ke ngumhla we-14 kuApreli kusathiwa ndikwinqanaba lesibini kumanqanaba emine. Ndiyacela ke ngoko Mphathiswa ukuba ukhe usiphandele ukuba eli nqanaba lingunombolo ntoni-ntoni lizakuphela nini na. [Kwahlekwa.]
English:
This department is not only important in supplying us with the correct identity but also in supplying other departments with the correct identification statistics in order to organise their budgets. True to what Minister Manuel said about the country's 2011 census, that "Statistics South Africa would have to rely on effective data management by government departments if it was to build a credible national statistical system which would allow for evidence-based policy making and monitoring as there is always a danger of population undercount".
IsiXhosa:
Loo nto ke ithetha ukuba siliqhwabela izandla kakhulu iphulo olenzayo Mphathiswa lokuba abantu bazifumane izazisi zabo. ICope iyalixhasa elim phulo kwaye nabo abantu basekhaya mabazilande izazisi zabo, kuba sihamba kakhulu kula duladula ukujonga okwenzekayo phaya. Uyakufika iibhokisi ngeebhokisi zezazisi zingalandwanga. Bade abakaduladula banyanzeleke baphume baye ezikolweni ukuya kukhwaza. Ndicinga ukuba abantu basekhaya noko mabazame ukuzilanda izazisi zabo.
English :
I just want to say something quickly about the new passport system. Cope is happy to learn that as a result of the new passport system, the average turnaround time is between 10 and 19 days.
IsiXhosa:
Siyayivuyela loo nto kwaye siyifumene into yokuba...
English:
... the features include a seven-layer polycarbonate page where personal details and a photograph are laser-engraved.
IsiXhosa:
Intle kakhulu loo nto leyo. Sinethemba lokuba ...
English:
...we are now in line with the requirements of the International Civil Aviation Oorganisation. On the smart card,...
IsiXhosa:
Mphathiswa, hayi, siyafuna ukuthi iintliziyo zethu zibuhlungu. Kungaqhuma kubasiwe. Ikhona into engalunganga ngale nto yesmart card. Khawusincende ke Mphathiswa ngophando olukhawulezileyo kwaye sibone kakuhle.
English:
We learnt today that something will be presented to us ...
IsiXhosa:
kwaye siyiqhwabela izandla kakhulu loo nto.
English:
On the co-ordination of border control,...
IsiXhosa:
... ixhala lethu lelokuba ingathi oku kuzakuba nguphelasonwabe emva kweNdebe yeHlabathi yeFifa. Kunga ingaqhubeka ke le nto kuba sibona umahluko omhle kakhulu, amagosa ajongeka esebenza. Amatyala orhwaphilizo ayaqwalaselwa. Ngoku ke sifuna ukuba loo nto ingabi sayeka nasemva kowama-2010. Siyacela ke Mphathiswa usincedise ngecandelo lama-22 lamaphepha-mvume obumbacu sizokufumana iindlela zokuncedisa abantu bethu. Naleyo into sikuvile namhlanje uyithetha, siyiqhwabela izandla.
Kukho ke into ebalulekileyo kuthi malunga nabakhangela igwiba lobumbacu, osixeleleyo ukuba izakuba njani apha kubo. Loo nto ke kunga singazi ukuba kuza kwenzeke nini oku. Kuba siyazi ukuba...
English:
... we want to be careful that we don't label refugees and asylum seekers as threats to our society. In this way we normalise violence, which results in furthering xenophobia.
IsiXhosa:
Okokugqibela ke ndifuna ukuthetha ngokulungela owama-2010. Enkosi kakhulu kumaLungu ePalamente kunye nosihlalo abaye basinika ithuba lokuba sihambele isixeko eziza kusingatha imidlalo yeNdebe yeHlabathi ...
English:
... seven parliamentary committees overseeing the readiness of the host cities.
IsiXhosa:
Into entle iyanconywa, yaye silubonile uhlobo abasebenza ngalo. Sinethemba lokuba bazakuqhubeka kanjalo. Ukongeza, uMphathiswa siyambona ezama namanyathelo okulwa urhwaphilizo. Ngamagosa ali-159 esele sivile ukuba anqunyanyisiwe. Kodwa ke, Mphathiswa, mabanganqunyaniyswa nje kuphela; mabade bahambe ngamasela, ngamatutu. Basimosha kurhulumente, kanti kufuneka kulungisiwe kurhulumente.
English:
I'm very encouraged to see that the department has made progress since last year. I am also aware that many challenges still lie ahead, especially with the upcoming Fifa 2010 World Cup.
IsiXhosa:
Siyabulela kumanye amasebe esingakhe sikwazi ukuwakhankanya: iKomishoni eziMeleyo yoloNyulo, iBhodi yeBhanyabhanya noPapasho kunye nemisebenzi yoshicelelo. Ezi zimbini ke ziphethwe ngamakhosikazi asebenzayo.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON: Hon member, your time has expired. [Applause.]
Ndicela nje ke Tata ukubulele umntu omnye. USihlalo wekomiti yethu. Awu! indoda kaThixo ithi ayinayo newotshi. [Kwahlekwa.]. Ithi Tata laa ndod' abantu inxiba the cheapest watch in the room. [iwotshi yelona xabiso liphantsi kweli gumbi.] [Kwaqhwatywa.]
Nksz H N MAKHUBA
Mrs Z B BALINDLELA
Ms H N MAKHUBA: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, hon members and guests, on behalf of the IFP, let me first welcome the newly appointed Director-General, Mr Mkhuseli Apleni. We look forward to a good working relationship. In order for the Department of Home Affairs to fulfil its civic functions of acting as a custodian of citizenship and identity, the regulator of immigration and of ports of entry, and the promoter of international relations, it requires a highly dedicated, efficient and competent leadership and staffing contingent.
In the area of performance delivery, we note that the department has had a mixture of successes and failures regarding target turnaround times for the issuing and reissuing of identity documents. We further note that it has set itself even higher turnaround goals for the 2010-11 periods. We hope the department is not following a strategy of overpromising and then delivering less. We caution it to rather set incremental goals that are more readily achievable.
Another issue is misinformation given to citizens when they interact with officials at Home Affairs offices. Such misinformation results in a citizen having to make five different trips to the departmental office in order to complete an application for an identity document or passport. This is unacceptable and its cause must be identified and corrected.
However, praise is in order for the department's call centre, which is efficient in the handling of public queries. We also praise the call centre for its proactive approach to the "Who am I online" project, which promotes the transition to a paperless working environment. The issuing of identity documents at schools is also a step in the right direction and should greatly alleviate the burden of the Home Affairs frontline offices. Proactive initiatives such as these will go a long way in assisting government departments with performance delivery.
Currently the department's major focus is on preparations for the 2010 Fifa World Cup and the sudden influx of foreign tourists and football teams that will begin within the next 57 days. We trust that the Minister is prioritising the changes to immigration procedures, as specified by Fifa. We also trust that the football fans will have a problem-free entry and a problem-free exit from South Africa.
Another great concern is the human trafficking that will occur. Are all our officials at our ports of entry properly trained to identify and handle situations of this nature, if and when they arise?
The IFP is concerned that within the department the spectres of corruption and a poor work ethic still raise their heads. The department must continue to deal with this swiftly and decisively because it eventually leads to total departmental dysfunction. This impacts negatively on the lives of our citizens because they receive substandard service in their dealings with the department.
While doing an admirable job during elections, the Independent Electoral Commission has still not remunerated some election officers in rural areas for the work done during the elections of last year, April 2009. This is unacceptable and must be rectified, because these election officers are among our needy people. We are facing local government elections in 2011 and do not wish to see a repeat of this situation.
The smart card ID system, which was introduced more than 10 years ago and approved by Cabinet in 2001, has yet to materialise. Last year the Minister indicated that the smart card process had been stopped. The Minister also admitted last month that National Treasury has not given the department any budget allocations for the project this year. The Minister needs to provide clarity on this project.
These are but a few of many challenges that face the Minister and her team during this year. This is an extraordinary year in that we have the World Cup, and it's the year in which the department will have to step up its game in order to achieve the lofty goals it has set for itself. We wish you well, Minister. In conclusion, the IFP supports the vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms T M A GASEBONWE
Ms H N MAKHUBA
Ms T M A GASEBONWE: Chairperson, hon Minister Comrade Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, hon Deputy Minister Gigaba, hon members and guests, I am honoured to participate in this budget debate. The Budget Vote process is an opportunity to assess how far we have come in our programmes and projects and whether what is being appropriated by the national Budget speaks to the priorities that the ANC has set for government.
The Department of Home Affairs is committed to ensuring the efficient determination and safeguarding of the identity and status of citizens and the regulation of migration, to ensuring security, to promoting democracy, and to developing and fulfilling South Africa's obligations. These obligations are substantial, and in a constitutional democracy like ours, we are constitutionally duty bound to perform. Judging by the Budget Vote's additional allocations, the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC, Film and Publication Board and Government Printing Works, GPW, have shown steady increases over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF.
The IEC and GPW received the largest portion of the budget allocation during the 2010-11 financial year. The IEC received an increase from R937 million to R1,4 billion. The budget increase for the IEC is obviously influenced by the 2011 local government elections. The increase in funding of these entities is compatible with the ANC's commitment to multiparty constitutional democracy, which has requirements for regular elections. This received much debate at the 51st National Conference of the ANC in Stellenbosch in 2002. The conference looked at the responsibility of the ANC government in providing the essential documented support for all eligible citizens.
Indeed, printing and publication work contribute to essential communications and the battle of ideas. The 2007 Polokwane Conference reaffirmed the importance of all forms of communication by the state in the national democratic revolution and the battle of ideas that need to be cultivated for a socially and politically conscious and responsible nation to function.
The ANC recognises that, while there is a lot of progress on this front, there is much that still needs to be done. The ANC's commitment to freedom of media is well known and entrenched. This principle was first adopted in the Freedom Charter and is entrenched in our Constitution. The ANC's commitment to freedom of expression in society, including the media, is located within the context of the Constitution of the Republic. These rights need to be weighed against other constitutional rights, such as the right to human dignity and privacy. The ANC is of the opinion that the media needs to contribute towards the building of a new society and be accountable for its actions. This relates to both broadcasting and the print media.
Given that we are undergoing a process of national democratic revolution, the media should contribute to the transformation of our country. Building social cohesion and promoting values of a caring society and nation are an essential part of the battle for ideas and must underpin and inform the manner in which the publication and printing board operates.
In the state of the nation address, President Zuma called for efforts to promote greater economic growth through the reduction of communication costs. He committed government to reduce broadband costs, cellphone, landline and public-phone rates, and I quote him when he said that "we will work to increase broadband speed and ensure a high standard of internet service, in line with international standards". This suggests the multifaceted nature of my debate involving technology, the Constitution and socioeconomic dimensions.
The Government Printing Works generates revenue mainly from printing identity documents, forms, examination papers and passports. Revenue is expected to increase over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period.
During the MTEF period, spending will focus on expanding activities directed at preventing child pornography on the internet. These activities include working closely with international organisations, researching human trafficking trends, classifying films, monitoring suppliers for compliance, and building relationships with international organisations.
Chairperson, in this regard, one has to draw the nation's attention to the fact that child pornography is one of the fastest-growing internet businesses, estimated to be worth billions of rand. Our debate must call for active popular participation of civil society in order to shape and take part in instilling the correct values, ethos and cultural norms that we wish to entrench in the minds of all citizens.
Therefore, we welcome the pressure, led by the Film and Publication Board, the department, ANC and broader civil society, which brought about the termination of the research project that DStv wanted to launch on a 24-hour pornographic pay channel. More than 20 000 images of child pornography are posted online every week, approximately 20% of all internet pornography involves children and there are approximately 100 000 websites that offer illegal child pornography. While such information may enrage or frighten people, it will not alter the conduct of those who take pleasure or profit in the exploitation of children unless the public and government are prepared to be decisive in decisions and actions to protect the children.
We believe that the department's budget must be distributed precisely to crack down on this and demonstrate clearly the government's resolve to effectively reinforce the global effort to combat this crime. Child pornography and the exposure of children to pornography must be made an abomination in society. There should be a comprehensive implementation of an information and communication technology, ICT, strategy that will ensure that the Film and Publication Board is up to date with new technologies that impact on content delivery and media distribution.
There is a need to strengthen the implementation and enforcement of the Films and Publication Act through the further development and maintenance of organisational capacity. The Constitution is unambiguous on this point. It states that everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes freedom of the press and other media, and freedom to receive or impart information or ideas. The democratic state has, since 1994, continued to uphold and respect the letter and the spirit of our Constitution, aware that our Constitution is a historic, legally binding document that marks out the contours of the new dispensation and its attendant values. Among others, the Department of Home Affairs has the responsibility to ensure that the people of South Africa ensure that our children grow up in a society marked by consistent observation of high moral standards. Ironically, the prevailing interpretation of reality in our public discourse continues to portray these open and above-board processes as an act of constitutional violation and a threat to media freedom.
It should be noted that the Government Printing Works has extended its services throughout the region and continent. The budget speaks to this. It has crafted for itself a reputation as being one of the best, secure and most specialised printing agencies on the continent. In recent years, the Government Printing Works won the contract to provide the African Union with diplomatic and service passports, which were successfully delivered on Africa Day.
Over the years, the Government Printing Works has assisted the Independent Electoral Commission, and other countries, with the provision of ballot papers for elections. All of these strides make the relocation of the Government Printing Works to a new and more convenient site and a specially designed complex all the more urgent. Furthermore, the Government Printing Works needs to accelerate a forensic laboratory capability to analyse passports, identity documents, visa labels or any high-security, face-value documents in order to complement other law-enforcement agencies in the fight against identity fraud.
In conclusion, the Department of Home Affairs has to co-operate very closely with the South African Police Service, specifically at forensic levels. The finalisation of the process to convert the Government Printing Works into a specialist security printing agency is urgent in order to address the crucial matter of the secure... [Time expired.] The ANC supports the budget. [Applause.]
Mr J J McGLUWA: Chairperson, the Department of Home Affairs has become infamous over the years as a department plagued by corruption, scandal and poor service delivery.
The influence of this department is far-reaching. It does not only affect the lives of all South Africans but also of millions of people who enter our country from Africa and the rest of the world.
The ID was relieved that someone of the calibre of Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma was put in charge of the department and we have already seen some improvements. These have included a slow yet convincing transformation to the delivery of a service that is efficient, accessible and corruption free. This confidence, however, will never blind us to the qualified audits the department gets year after year.
With the 2010 FIFA World Cup on our doorstep, we can only be proud to say that in terms of our ports of entry, we are ready. We also say that there are minor challenges, like the access control at the Cape Town Airport at Customs and also the siege of the baboons at the Beit Bridge port in Limpopo. It is a pity that we did not have the opportunity to visit other Southern African Development Community, SADC, countries, seeing that the World Cup is on African soil.
We support the increased budget for the Film and Publication Board, but we feel we could do more to clamp down on child pornography and the increasing sexual exploitation of children and women, especially as the 2010 FIFA World Cup looms.
I would also like to voice the ID's concern about the lack of representation of females in middle management. There is a need for us to address these imbalances.
I strongly feel that the Minister owes us an explanation about what exactly happened with the forensic audit reports on the "Who am I Online" project and the review requested by the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, into the smart card project tender control process. In addition to the upcoming smart card briefings by Sita on 20 April, we demand to see the forensic audit report.
It does not make sense that Sita, the very organisation that the Minister herself said didn't do as it was supposed to do, will now be giving us a briefing on the forensic report that none of us have even seen.
According to media reports, the Minister publicly condemned Sita for the delays in the smart card project. And now we are expected to trust Sita to give us its own sanitised version of the report!
Why is it that the "Who am I Online" project report, given to the former Minister on 10 February 2009, had not seen by the portfolio committee until today? What does the department have to hide? The ID supports this Budget. I thank you.
Dr C P MULDER
Mr J J McGLUWA
Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, the hon Minister started her intervention this afternoon by reminding us that we are in the month of April. Then she reminded us about the arrival of Jan van Riebeeck 358 years ago. She made the point that that was the beginning of our oppression.
We all know that history can be interpreted from different points of view and angles. What I do know is that South Africa today is the most modern country in Africa. What I do know is that we have the strongest economy in Africa. We have one of the most modern constitutions in Africa. I was just wondering if it could be that not only those people who came then played a role, exclusively. It is definitely not so. All South Africans made a difference in making such a huge success of this country. Perhaps we should be careful before we just make statements.
The aim of the Department of Home Affairs is to efficiently determine and safeguard identity and status, regulate migration, ensure security, promote development and fulfil its international obligations.
This department is in the very frontline, in terms of the expectations of all our citizens. All citizens throughout their lives will, on more than one occasion, come into contact with this department. It might be with the registration of a child's birth, registering as a voter, applying for an ID document or passport. It might be when they get married, change their name or surname and even when they die.
Unfortunately this department has, over the last couple of years, not had the best track record of service delivery, efficiency or being a bastion against corruption. Because of this, there has been a need to create a new Department of Home Affairs and we have been hearing about a dramatic turnaround strategy for quite some time. However, this is not the first time.
Six years ago, on 24 February 2004, a briefing was given to a joint committee of Parliament on a turnaround strategy for the Department of Home Affairs. The point of departure was that the Department of Home Affairs needed "a decisive turnaround strategy". That specific strategy was not successful. A new strategy was implemented in the last two years. At last we are now experiencing and seeing the positive results of a new Department of Home Affairs and for that we are very thankful.
That did not just happen by itself. In the 2003-04 financial year, R1,9 billion was given to this department. In the current financial year, it is R5,7 billion. That is an increase of 200%. When one gives such huge amounts of money, we obviously need to see the results at some stage.
Afrikaans:
Die Departement van Binnelandse Sake werk met die status van persone, deurdat hulle verantwoordelik is vir die toekenning en uitreiking van statusgewende dokumentasie. In daardie opsig kan foute nie bekostig word nie. Burgers is geregtig op dokumentasie wat effektief is.
English:
In December last year, the hon Minister announced that she had suspended 31 officials, and that was over and above the other 28 officials that were also suspended in the last week of November. Can the hon Minister please give us some feedback about what happened? We cannot allow... [Time has expired.]
Ms P MADUNA
Mr C P MULDER
Ms P MADUNA: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister, Members of Parliament and guests, this Budget Vote debate takes place against the backdrop of the department's immigration programme that deals with matters of refugees and asylum seekers. The allocation of the budget reflects a steady decline. This objective reality needs to be assessed against the priorities of the strategic plan of the Department of Home Affairs and the centrality of immigration policies and functions.
The ANC policy on migration, immigrating refugees and xenophobia is very clear. If migration is managed properly, it can lead to development in the country and its Gross Domestic Product, GDP, with benefits for all.
In recent years, the rise in the number of immigrants to South Africa has been accompanied by increasingly visible acts of xenophobia against foreign nationals, particularly those from other African countries. Xenophobia, the hatred of foreigners, is one of the global challenges which the ANC has tried to address through international forums, continental bodies and within our borders.
The xenophobic sentiments evident in parts of South Africa run against the current of the country's main political traditions and is in sharp conflict with the strong nonracial culture of the ANC and the majority of the citizens of our country.
Since its formation in 1912, the ANC became the pivot of African unity in South Africa and beyond, its broad, outward-looking progressive nationalism reflecting both the humanist traditions of African democratic inclusiveness and the universal values of the major religions of the world. The ANC's formation stirred the human solidarity of the African continent. The government and peoples of the African continent played a central role in the achievement of democracy and nonracialism in South Africa.
The instance of xenophobia in South Africa is largely linked to immigration. The South African government in recent years repatriated more than 270 000 people. The great majority of these people were undocumented foreign nationals from various countries in Africa. More than 100 000 came from Mozambique; more than 60 000 from Zimbabwe; more than 7 000 from Lesotho; and more than 3 500 each from Swaziland and Malawi.
The figures do not tell the whole story of undocumented foreign nationals who illegally cross South Africa's borders in search of safety and better opportunities. There are thousands of foreign nationals who, while they do not possess legalised documents, stay undetected in the country for long periods of time. In addition, there are thousands from the continent who are refugees and others who hold various types of permits, including documents for work and study purposes.
In the political management of this scenario, it is important that we align ourselves with what the United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees, UNHCR, resolved as far back as 1951. They resolved that we make a clear distinction between political refugees and economic migration and deal with these two distinctively different groups separately.
The increase in immigration was a predictable consequence of South Africa's democratic breakthrough in 1994. More immigrants are going to come to South Africa. This will continue to be the case each year until both the political and economic conditions on the continent change for the better.
There is another positive dimension and longstanding advances that tend not to be highlighted on this debate, namely that for years South Africans have lived side by side with foreign nationals. They worked together in the mining migrant system, lived together in the townships, studied together and shared accommodations in institutions of higher learning.
Since 1994, South Africa has benefited from migration, and the ANC has always advocated the revision of immigration policies. The need for job creation and scarce skills has been part of the relationship between the Department of Home Affairs, citizens and foreign nationals.
It was obvious that the new conditions of democracy, peace, justice and prosperity in South Africa would bring to the country many foreign nationals, especially from the African continent. The new arrivals would, in the main, include asylum seekers from those parts of the continent where political conflict still rages, as well as economic refugees fleeing from hunger and want in their own countries.
Regarding immigration control, successive colonial and apartheid regimes used immigration control as one of their tools to convert South Africa into a colony of a special type. While the immigration of whites was encouraged and assisted as part of a deliberate recruitment programme, blacks were carted, through controlled immigration and forced removals, to areas that were reserved for occupation by Africans, coloureds and Indians.
An indication of things to come was the enactment in 1913 of the Immigration Regulation Act. The Act also proscribed the movement of black people in South Africa and made them foreigners in the land of their birth.
Fighting xenophobia includes supporting the progress of regional integration with all the countries of the Southern African Development Community, SADC, and commitment to the vision of African Renaissance. The ANC is also committed to upholding the latter and the spirit of the Constitution, which protects the human rights of both South Africans and immigrants within the country. While xenophobic elements in society will call for further limitation of the rights of foreign nationals, such limitations themselves are likely to result in an increase in xenophobia.
It is important to understand the phenomenon of xenophobia in the context of globalisation, which also threatens to reinforce the material basis for racism on a global scale. The process of globalisation is also associated with the emergence of new forms of racism, xenophobia, and gender and related intolerances.
While the free movement of capital and goods across national borders is encouraged and growing, the movement of people across borders, especially the movement of unskilled labour from less developed to the more developed countries, is becoming increasingly circumscribed.
The ANC supports the establishment of a human rights-based system for migration control through legislation. The ANC will work to ensure that its structures are equipped to assist foreign nationals to legalise their stay in South Africa. It will work with other forces on the continent to encourage economic growth and social development across Africa.
The ANC is committed to promoting community awareness of tolerance and respect for the rights of foreign nationals and their integration into local communities.
The question that remains to be answered is: what is to be done to deploy resources through budget where it is needed most? After all, the ANC budget must enhance the vision of building a caring society and working towards a peaceful national democratic society. This position is in line with the ANC's stance at the 52nd National Conference in 2007 of building a peaceful and caring society.
A word of caution is also necessary. We are aware that South Africa's new constitutional democracy is being taken advantage of by all sorts of different groups externally with different agendas. Hence part of the approach is to ensure that the Department of Home Affairs is working together with the criminal justice cluster to develop a policy and system that will ensure that illegal acts are captured in a data system that will assist in monitoring their movements and the enforcement of South African laws.
There is a need to strengthen border post services while, on the other hand, it is necessary to speed up satellite infrastructure to ensure connectivity. It is equally important to have the border post network incorporated into the overall departmental network.
In conclusion, it must be noted that social integration has been entrenched in our country over the years. Equally, adversarial incidences tend to reverse the gains of the past in a society that is transforming itself from a racist legacy.
This budget is important in taking forward the progress of the Department of Home Affairs. The ANC supports Budget Vote 4 for the Department of Home Affairs. Working together, we can do more. I thank you, comrades. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Ms P MADUNA
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, hon Minister of Home Affairs, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members, my daughter, Lerato, ladies and gentlemen, first and foremost I would like to take this opportunity to pay special tribute to our fallen colleague, Dr Molefi Sefularo.
Chairperson, 100 years ago, on 31 May 1910, after the bloody South African War - inaptly dubbed the Anglo-Boer War - the Union of South Africa was established as a "white man's country" where the black majority was purposely excluded, denied universal franchise and treated as cheap labour. The Union finally formalised the political unity between the Brits and Boers, and for almost a century race was to play a decisive and divisive role in the politics of our country.
Our country has traversed a long journey to where we are today. While we still carry with us the painful imprints of our past, today we are a nation and people steadfastly committed to constructing a new future based on unity, equality and respect for each other's rights and diversity.
The Republic of South Africa born 16 years ago is a firm negation of the racist chauvinism of 1910 and a resolute affirmation of the historic vision that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white.
The Department of Home Affairs, which has the honour to present its Budget Vote today, is part of this vision. It is determined to do all it can to affirm all our people' yearning to belong to a common nation, share a common identity and toil towards a common future. We remain resolute in our commitment never again to allow this department to be used to divide South Africans but to be part of the broad movement to affirm our people's common identify and citizenship.
In order to enhance our skills base and our leadership capabilities, we announced plans to establish the Home Affairs learning academy. Because we committed ourselves, we are pleased to announce that we did finalise the academy's business case and a Home Affairs qualification, focusing on the core business of the department and customer care. The learning academy will begin to be operational in this financial year. We have further decided that the academy will deal with policy development and knowledge management for the department.
For this financial year, our training will focus on the training of supervisors and front -office officials in customer service, operational excellence and other needs-based interventions.
Furthermore, because the situation at Home Affairs is not normal, we have met with Business Unity South Africa, Busa, and agreed that they shall, on our behalf, engage the banks to second managers to train our officials, especially those involved in front-office operations, in order to improve customer service.
Furthermore, to contribute to the programme of enhancing youth employability, the department intends this year to recruit 244 young people for the internship and 300 for the national youth service programmes. The recruitment of interns is already under way and they will soon join the department.
In the last financial year we committed ourselves to improving the operational efficiency and effectiveness of refugee affairs. Our intention was to improve the turnaround time for the determination of refugee status and significantly increase the quantitative number of decisions made by our officials. We wanted to radically improve the protection mechanisms for genuine asylum seekers and refugees, in line with our international obligations.
In this regard, we have improved the number of days it takes to issue section 22 permits from seven days to one day. We have increased the numbers of our refugee status determination officers and we have increased the number of their decisions made from an average of five decisions per week to an average of seven decisions per day.
We still face a serious challenge to improve the quality of the decisions and compliance with newly designed methods of work and business processes. However, we intend to establish an additional centre in Bloemfontein during this financial year.
More importantly, this year we intend to begin the complete overhaul of the strategic thrust of refugee policy and legislation. This overhaul will impact extensively on the asylum processes, the details of which shall be announced during the course of the year.
Through this exercise, among others, we hope to separate economic migrants from genuine asylum seekers. This is precisely why we began engaging various stakeholders, such as trade unions, on the issue of economic migrants, with the purpose to evolve a policy on the matter. We intend to continue with this very important exercise and broaden the stakeholder's engagement and, as the Minister indicated, to bring legislation to the National Assembly.
Last year, we also committed ourselves to intensifying the campaign against xenophobia. We are pleased to report that as part of this effort we have already trained 102 community development workers and 23 secondary schools in affected areas in Gauteng. We are also working with the SA Police Service and other key stakeholders, professionals and activists.
Fighting xenophobia is ultimately the responsibility of the public as a whole, so this programme must be premised on mobilising communities at large. In this financial year, we will improve the department's institutional capacity to lead and co-ordinate sustainable interventions by creating a directorate. We will finalise and launch the programme.
As you would know, the Films and Publications Amendment Act was finally signed into law by the President. Both the Act and the regulations are now operational. We will finalise the appointment of the council of the Film and Publication Board within 30 days.
We continued to make strides in the past financial year, particularly in the fight against child pornography through mass-outreach campaigns. We are still awaiting the report of the Law Reform Commission on our request for advice on the possibility of prohibiting pornography in certain areas, including the internet and mobile phones. We are committed that we should have legislation in this regard, in order to protect our children. Those who want to view pornography must do so in the privacy of well-regulated adult shops.
It is for this reason that we celebrated with most South Africans when Multichoice stepped down from the idea of establishing a 24-hour pornography channel. We applause all South Africans who stood firm in their rejection of this nefarious idea and regret that Multichoice even thought of this in the first instance. We must continue steadfastly to refuse to accept that pornography be brought into our living rooms.
Among the priorities for this financial year is that we develop a turnaround strategy to ensure the alignment of the Film and Publication Board structures, systems and processes with the new amendment Act.
We will also establish a dedicated unit to oversee the roll-out of the FIFA World Cup projects regarding child protection, focusing on the roll-out of a massive public awareness campaign on the risks to children. An amount of R15 million has been dedicated to this project.
Over the past few years, we have been seized with the challenge of the transformation of the Government Printing Works, GPW, to position it as the security printer of choice for government and the SADC region. We have decided to position it as a key player in the smart-card and passport industry.
In this regard, we are pleased to report that we have completed the conversion of GPW into a government component. We should soon complete the appointment of its advisory board in terms of the Act. At this stage, we are in the process of changing the organisational structure of GPW and finalising the migration of its staff into the new structure.
The conversion has made it possible for GPW to negotiate and implement a special salary dispensation for artisans, which should help address the challenge of the recruitment and retention of skilled artisans for the organisation.
Following years of adverse audit opinion, the GPW is well on its way to a clean audit. We have finally recruited a well-qualified and experienced chief financial officer. We will further procure more modern equipment in order to prepare the organisation for the new challenges ahead. And in a few months we will complete the second pavilion that will result in the relocation of the entire factory from that old dungeon at the old premises to a new and refurbished plant.
Regarding the debt that was reported in the portfolio committee, we wish to inform hon members that by the time it was reported to the portfolio committee the department had already made a formal acknowledgment of the debt. By the end of March this year the debt was paid up. New tariff requests are being made to National Treasury in order to avoid the recurrence of the same problems in future.
Chairperson, I wish to conclude by thanking the Minister for her studious and steadfast leadership and support, as well as the Director-General, senior managers and all the officials in the Ministry and department for their support in the execution of our mandate. I hope my daughter was not as bored by this speech as she was last year.
Hon members, we commend this Budget Vote to you. However, we regret that you need to expect the report from Sita because they were the ones that were doing this report on the smart card. I want to promise that Sita will not provide the portfolio committee with a sanitised report but with the report as they have done it. That is part of the process of informing the portfolio committee. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART
The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP shares the view that while there has been great improvement in the department, there is still a long way to go. We've served on the portfolio committee for a number of years and we do see improvements, but we are concerned about long waiting times and long queues at the offices, fraud and corruption and, of course, the qualified audits. We look forward to a time when there will no longer be a qualified audit.
Clearly, this department is a crucial one. Considering last year's economic downturn and the many citizens who needed to access social welfare grants using their identity documents, the department plays a very important role.
Fraud and corruption is an issue that everyone has raised and it is a matter of great concern. The ACDP believes a big part of this is the late registration of births. The Minister raised that issue. The ACDP appreciates that many people live in rural areas far away from Home Affairs offices. However, late registration should ideally be limited to very exceptional cases, particularly after the first year of birth. We support the target that the department has set in this regard.
The ACDP also fully supports the attempts just elucidated by the Deputy Minister and involving the Film and Publication Board to combat adult and child pornography. We believe pornography is the theory, rape the practice. We must take further steps. All strength to you, Deputy Minister, with this legislation. Don't wait for the Law Commission, bring the legislation to Parliament. Let's have a look at it and see what we can do to assist you in that regard.
Regarding the Soccer World Cup, we are concerned about the trafficking issue. We would like you to give us further indication on whether sufficient steps are in place to prevent the smuggling of vulnerable women and children into South Africa.
Chairperson, I see my time has expired, but from the ACDP's side we would like to congratulate the new director-general and thank all those dedicated and honest officials who, over the years, have been turning this department around. We support this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs M M MAUNYE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Ministers, comrades and hon members, this budget is being delivered in "the year of working together to speed up effective service delivery to the people". In declaring this, the ANC seeks to ensure that each government department responds to this theme and it is within this context that we engage in this debate today.
The Budget Vote reflects that the Services to Citizens programme of the Department of Home Affairs had an increase of 4,68% in nominal terms. In real terms, this is a decrease, which, of course, must be of concern. The reasons for this, however, need to be articulated during this debate. What cannot be doubted is the commitment to the delivery of services that meet the needs of all citizens alike.
Pressures on this Budget Vote have been amplified by the increase in applications for travel documents, passport systems, identity documents, the upcoming Fifa World Cup and the 2011 local government elections.
The ANC believes that the civic services have to underpin the turnaround strategy and the turnaround strategy must speak to this. The strategy brings together and harnesses all our resources in a coherent and purposeful effort that can be sustained into the future. In this regard our people, with their aspirations and collective determination, are our most precious resource.
The turnaround strategy requires a partnership between the Department of Home Affairs, communities and civil society. What informs us historically is the Reconstruction and Development Programme, which focused on the most immediate needs of our people. It relies in turn on their energies to drive the process of meeting these needs.
The ANC is in the process of constructing a developmental state. The nature of this state promotes participation, accountability and an active, informed and empowered citizenry. It respects and engenders a culture of human rights in society. It acts as the key force for social integration and nation-building. It has to ensure the necessary institutional capacity to play an interventionist role in catalysing socioeconomic transformation, working in partnership with different social forces. In this regard, the ANC's 2004 election manifesto, the People's Contract, called for integrated service delivery.
Local communities know better their daily experience and needs. These need to be addressed in an integrated manner. It is through an integrated approach that quality service delivery can be accelerated. In the same vein integrated approaches recognise that human needs are diverse and consistently changing.
This approach has to be driven, and as Members of Parliament we have a constitutional and direct responsibility to do this. Meeting the people's needs means that our constituency offices have to be turned into mobilising centres, centres of information and centres of activism, promoting in the meeting of people's needs the concept of an activist Parliament.
In this manner, we can ensure an integrated approach with government while at the same time exercising oversight on the programmes directed towards serving the people's needs. The active working relationship between Members of Parliament and the communities, especially in the areas of jurisdiction of this Budget Vote, is crucial. It is a relationship that should be issued-based to advance quality service to our people.
This budget picture speaks to the priorities of the ANC at present. The turnaround strategy has reduced the time taken for the reissuing of identity documents to 30 days through operations management, process reviews and an ID track and trace system. The turnaround time for the first-time issue of an ID has increased to 90 days, because the first issue requires birth records and for permanent residence or naturalisation to be verified, which takes up to two months. Also, implementing the biometric access control management system resulted in slower mass data inputs. The average turnaround time for a passport is 19 days.
On-line fingerprint verification had been introduced at 226 offices by the end of September 2009. As the ANC, we regard this as significant progress. This technology-based approach enables front-office personnel to verify the identity of clients on application, reducing the need to forward applications to the central ID production facility. Temporary identity certificates can be issued on the spot.
In the 2008-09 financial year the department opened 45 new service points, of which 20 are permanent service points, 7 are district offices and 18 are services centres. In 2009, the contact centre handled about 1,1 million contacts, which include calls, faxes and e-mails.
Even prior to the turnaround strategy, the department had recognised that operational efficiency required modern, integrated information systems and communication networks, especially at service delivery points. There have been ongoing improvements to systems and processes, including their management. These include: a new passport system implemented in April 2009; security features improved on birth certificates; on-line birth and death registration done at 119 hospitals; on-line verification rolled out to 273 offices; the implementation of track and trace functionality to birth registration; third-party on-line fingerprint verification piloted with the South African Banking Risk Information Centre, Sabric; measures being put in place for the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup successfully piloted during the Confederation Cup and Fifa draw in December; campaign under way to reduce backlogs in late registration of births; backlogs in provinces have been reduced; 176 late-registration-of-birth committees in place and functional, and other support functions.
The ANC has consistently treated the fight against corruption as a priority and has given its full support to the anticorruption partnerships. A National Anticorruption Programme was developed and adopted by the public, business and civil society. It should be remembered that combating corruption and crime is one of our priorities.
Significant progress has also been made in areas of capacity constraints and improvement of infrastructure. With regard to the flow of skills into the public sector, the customisation of the induction and orientation programme for pilot departments is progressing, but there are challenges.
The turnaround strategy has to bring about real change in the Department of Home Affairs, in line with the spirit of Batho Pele. The transformation of Home Affairs has gained momentum. This turnaround was not about superficial restructuring but about deep and fundamental change. The transformation process within the department will not be an event but a deep-seated process. As a result, it was anticipated that there would be certain levels of difficulty, particularly the need for more budget to ensure the necessary resources.
One of the key elements of the turnaround strategy is to get the right people into the right positions within the new structure. The ANC refers to the entrenchment and necessity of a new cadre with a new consciousness that must serve the people with dignity and dedication. It also means that as transition occurs, from the old Home Affairs model to the new one, there is the need to consolidate gains. The department should ensure that people are able to do the jobs they are required to do, and that they are placed in positions on the basis of their strengths and skills. [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M MNQASELA
Mrs M M MAUNYE
Mr M MNQASELA: Chairperson, the hon Minister of Home Affairs, Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, hon Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, Mr Malusi Gigaba, other Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here, hon members, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen,...
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyafuna ukubulela kwakhona kwimibutho namaqumrhu akhoyo: iKhomishoni eZimeleyo yoloNyulo, IEC, iMisebenzi yoShicelelo kaRhulumente, kunye neBhodi yeBhanyabhanya noShicelelo.
English:
Obviously, we do witness the large delegation from the department. I think it is very important to acknowledge that. We thank them for being here.
IsiXhosa:
Elona yeza lokunyanga le ngxaki bekuthethwa ngayo apha nguzifozonke owawufudula usetyenziswa phaya ekhaya mhla kukho ingxaki.
English:
Last year, when the Budget Vote of this department was tabled, I described this department as one ravaged by malnutrition and kwashiorkor. At the time, my statement was valid and appropriate in reference to the situation that prevailed then. Obviously, my tone has now become "softer" and "simpler", as the President of the country used to say when he tried to uplift his standard. One of the reasons why my tone might be different is that there has been some improvement in the work done by the department, especially by the Ministry.
However, yesterday we learnt from the SABC that the public protector is sitting with complaints from more than 660 people who have given up hope of ever getting their identity documents. This is totally unacceptable and something must be done to address the plight of those people.
However, as I have said, there has been improvement in some areas of civic service. What I do not understand, though, is why the Minister reduced the budget for the human resource component of administration. I think this goes against the objectives and needs to be looked at.
Our major challenge remains the full implementation of the turnaround strategy and its substantive implications for the people of our country. Had the Minister acceded to the request for a meeting by the DA made on 5 November 2009 to discuss some of the key priorities of the department, together with the full implementation of the turnaround strategy...
IsiXhosa:
... ndinalo ithemba lokuba ezinye zezi ngxaki ngesibonisene saze sancedisana ngazo zingenzeki ngale ndlela zenzeka ngayo.
English:
It is also important to note that the disclaimers and qualified audit opinion regarding both the Department of Home Affairs and its two entities, the Government Printing Works and Film and Publications Board, remain a grave concern. We need a department that is free of suspicion, controversy, corruption, fraud, etc. We are a young nation and the department must employ its resources to overcome the challenges that arise from this.
We need to pay even greater attention to the problems faced by the nation's youth, both those in school and those outside the environment of schooling. We also need to encourage our young people who stay in the informal settlements, townships, cities, towns and suburbs to go and apply for birth certificates on time. Obviously, I support the Minister when she says that people must apply for birth certificates at hospitals immediately after giving birth. However, we need to encourage those who are younger than 16 to speedily go and apply for IDs.
I also want to point out that the department fails to meet its targets and objectives. It continues to increase targets without a clear plan. We will never meet those objectives if we do not plan properly. These become unrealistic and misleading to the nation. Targets regarding the turnaround strategy and the time it takes for the first issue and the reissuing of IDs and passports need to remain the same. They don't need to change, nor do we need to make them shorter because we know very well that we are still struggling to meet targets set out in the turnaround strategy of last year. That is word of advice, which I think you will welcome, hon Minister.
The structural set-up ought to remain the same yet somehow we need to make sure that we have enough staff to attend to those people who come and queue in these offices. There is much that needs to be done.
The amendment to the immigration policy of the department needs to be expedited. Of course, this is unlikely to happen before the World Cup tournament, but a plan ought to be made to accommodate the implementation of the advanced passenger processing unit. This particular system, which the Minister alluded to, is one that will enable us to deal speedily with passengers travelling to our shores. Obviously, they do not want to be held up in long queues. However, without this particular policy we will face challenges in terms of the law - unless we have other means to try and circumvent that.
I am also worried about the issuing of event visas. I've heard the Minister try to allay our fears, but I don't think we have catered for all the eventualities linked to it, especially with the absence of the controversial "Who am I Online" project.
We need answers regarding the two main projects. A project that remains controversial in this department is the smart ID card. I know that not only the DA but all parties, including the ANC, are worried about the smart ID card and the "Who am I Online" projects. In the portfolio committee we agreed that these must be addressed and we need to not shy away from raising them, regardless of the parties we belong to. [Interjections.] I don't know where you are coming from. [Interjections.] And you should be wary of getting involved in the affairs of this department.
IsiXhosa:
ILINGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Yeyakho leyo. Zange siyithethe loo nto thina.
English:
This is the Department of Home Affairs, not the housing or any other portfolio committee. [Interjections.] We need answers.
Let me also say that we need to improve the relationship between the Ministry and the members of the portfolio committee. I think –Minister, you will agree - we met only once with the Minister and her delegation. That should not be encouraged. We need to meet more often to address these issues.
IsiXhosa:
ILINGU ELIHLONIPHEKILEYO: Kwakusetyenzwa nini? [Kwahlekwa.]
English:
During my visit to at least four provinces last week - this included Gauteng, North West, Eastern Cape,...
IsiXhosa:
- Bayabuza ukuba kusetyenzwa nini. Ndiyanixelela ukuba kuyasetyenzwa ngoku. [Uwelewele.] -
English:
I came to the conclusion that our borders are in serious crisis. I think everybody agrees and I'm happy that the Minister has said in this House that measures are being put in place to try and do something about it. I was worried and I must say that we are going to cry if something is not done urgently. Our children will be facing a serious crisis. We must remember that not all households are perfect.
IsiXhosa:
Sishiya abantwana emakhaya behleli bodwa. Ngenye imini kufike izigebenga okanye izigilamkhuba, zibathathe. Ngamanye amaxesha ziyabadlwengula okanye ziye kubathengisa esitalatweni. Loo nto ithetha ukuba siza kubanengxaki yabantwana abazakuhlukunyezwa zizigebenga nezigilamkhuba ezingaziyo ukuba zizokwenza ntoni na apha kweli lizwe. Abanye abazanga kubukela imidlalo kuphela, baze kusebenza.
English:
The promise by the department is to address those issues within the framework of 2010. We wish the department could take that beyond 2010.
Let me also say that we need to fast-track the establishment of the border management entity because the current Border Control Operational Co-ordination Committee, BCOCC, is in shambles. This will ensure that we have a more effective structure to reassess and investigate a fresh approach to the management of our ports of entry.
Refugee reception centres remain a hotbed of fraud and corruption. This is bad for South Africa. Refugees and asylum seekers wait indefinitely for their legal documents and those seeking appeal are even worse off.
For many people of this country, the Department of Home Affairs has become the department of horror attacks, and that's a very big problem. We do not want to wake up not knowing whether we are married...
IsiXhosa:
... njengoko umama uNosimo Balindlela ebesitsho, ungazi nokuba utshatele kubani na, ufile na okanye uyaphila.
English:
In conclusion, I need to acknowledge the good work and challenges we experienced as the DA. My colleague, Juanita Terblanche, mentioned those challenges. I think they were clear and should be taken in good spirit. We do not have Director-General Mavuso Msimang present here because he has since resigned – retired, thank you. You know, isilungu siyabhida. [English can be confusing.] So, I need to acknowledge him in absentia for his service to our beautiful land and bid him farewell. We welcome the new director-general, Mr Mkhuseli Apleni, and wish him well in his new job. Ndiyabulelela kakhulu Mhlalingaphambili. Enkosi [Thank you very much, Chairperson.] [Applause.]
Mr Z L MADASA
Mr M MNQASELA
Mr Z L MADASA: Chairperson, before I specifically address people in the House I would first like to address those who are outside the House and remind them that the Department of Home Affairs is part of the security of this country. So, while we have the right, according to the Constitution, as Members of Parliament and as members of the public to debate, we must also take into account our interests as a nation.
I'm not going to talk about apartheid here, because people go crazy when one mentions the word. But this is our history. Apartheid was declared a crime against humanity. Obviously, the system was there because it had support: people voted for it and sustained it, while others were fighting it. The interesting thing about all this is which section of our community it is that is now finding it necessary to campaign all over the world, saying this country is a crime capital, counting the number of babies who die per day, the number of people raped per hour, per second - people have amazing statistics. You would have expected that section of our community to have made known the number of people killed by security forces, per hour, per day, per second, at the time when that serious crime was committed against humanity. This did not happen.
Those people who are talking would keep quiet, if they were sober and sensible. The World Cup is coming and it's mostly about rebranding South Africa and Africa. We know there is no money to be made in this thing. Our people and the government are paying for it, but the bigger picture is rebranding, for medium-term and long-term economic benefits. In my view, the people who like to portray us as a crime capital are foolish. They are shooting themselves in the foot. If you analyse the situation in our country, business people who have big businesses such as hotels will benefit from this World Cup. Yet they are the very people who are campaigning against the country - although they were not campaigning during the crime of apartheid. Ordinary, poor people don't have such businesses. They will have small stalls far away from this thing.
This is the point I'm trying to make to those who are listening and have ears: during your consistent campaign to brand us a crime capital, you were joined by the Europeans, as reported by a gentleman from Germany, the United Kingdom and their right-wing tabloids, which ran exaggerated sensational headlines such as, 'Don't go to that country! You'll be killed by elephants, baboons and rapists! You need to have equipment if you go there!" The point is, you don't know this is an economic war. Those Europeans are just not playing the game. They know that if this country is successfully rebranded, tourists will come here and their economies will be affected. They don't want that.
While people here are playing racist and crime games, they are losing business to those Europeans. Whether they are racist or not, they are South Africans. We are losing business and those people are gaining business. As a consequence, ticket sales and bookings are slow. I don't know if they realise that they've campaigned against themselves. This is what has happened. I want to make this point to those people out there.
On the other hand, people like to go to newspapers selectively when they debate. Let me follow what they normally do: today, I read a newspaper. I read about a German expert on security. This gentleman is a chairperson of a committee and came here for fact finding. He is now reporting in Germany. He says, "We are impressed by the South African leadership and the preparation of security arrangements." He continues to say, "It is perfect." The same gentleman blames these tabloids. He says, "There is no problem in South Africa; we are happy."
Before him, I heard a lady from the United States on a radio talk show. When there was a debate about readiness, she also assured business, saying, "We are working with South Africans; our citizens are coming here to watch and play football; we are happy about security." It's funny because on that talk show it was South Africans who were saying, "We are not ready". [Laughter.] This American woman had to defend us! This is the madness we have in this country.
Hon Minister, I want to bring something to your attention, if you were not aware of it. When we were doing oversight visits to check the readiness of our cities, we went to the Crown Mines Refugee Centre. There we found that they had "peace boards". These refugee peace boards are small compared to the job at hand, and they had to move around the country. A suggestion was made that these need to be broadened.
Secondly, with regard to the procedures: apparently people abuse the system. They apply for refugee status, they lose, and then they appeal, knowing there is a backlog in the appeal process. Given the liberality of our Constitution, once they are appeal applicants, other rights can be exploited. And so, gradually, they gain more rights to be South Africans. This is the game they are playing. The suggestion was then made that perhaps there should be a pre-appeal process, whereby only appeals that have merit will be heard and the others can fall through the system.
Another issue, and I've made this point before, is no matter what we are doing security wise from the perspective of Department of Home Affairs and its systems, we can't do these things perfectly as an island. We need to continue to pursue our Southern African Development Community, SADC, neighbours to join us. We can have a perfect system here but if people are going through our neighbours to come to us, we won't be able to contain the situation. Therefore, we need to enjoin them to come on board so that we have integrated policies and systems. I know it's going to take a while but we need to continue to fight that war.
Lastly, to answer some of the issues raised here by our fellow South Africans in the House. I observed that the other parties heard that the department is doing well but it's difficult for them to admit it [Laughter.] Hon fellow South Africans, when it comes to debate, we need to raise policy issues. If you get reports from the public, remember not to change them. File them...
Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. It is not parliamentary to shout across and call a member by their surname. Could you please tell the member that they should address people as "honourable"?
The House Chairperson (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member, that is a good point of order. Your are "hon Terblanche". Hon member, please refer to other members as "hon members".
Mr Z L MADASA: Chairperson, I want to say that when we get reports from the public, we must remember that we are all Members of Parliament and representatives of the public. The first port of call is that we would try to thrash out these issues and pursue the department. If they don't deal with the issues, we take them to the highest office: to the Director-General, Deputy Minister and Minister. We do this before the debates start. Let's not pile up evidence for debate and wait for the day of the debate to say it. Let's not work like those hon members. We must not collect evidence from the South African Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, and other people and pile it up, waiting for the day of the debate to mention those issues. No, let's take up the issues with the department. We are representatives; the department must listen to us and take up the issues so that when the debate comes, everything is more or less done.
Lastly, when we are debating – just to give some free lessons – if the Minister is addressing issues that you were perhaps going to raise, and you realise that the Minister has addressed the issue, take your pen and tick it off. [Applause.] Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS
Mr Z L MADASA
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I would like to thank all the members who participated and all those who sat through this debate. I don't have enough time to address all the hon members' points, but since most of them belong to the portfolio committee, we can answer some of them there. So, hon members should not feel offended if I do not deal with their point.
I do want to deal with a few points. One, the "Who am I Online" project is not linked to a service provider. "Who am I Online" is the actual programme, and that programme is ongoing. I want to assure you that it was supposed to deliver for 2010, and it is going to deliver. As I said, it is already being used, it is already being piloted and it is going to be rolled out. After 2010, it will be rolled out to al the other ports that were not deemed priority for 2010. So, that will continue.
Two, I want to correct hon McGluwa. [Interjections.] There is no such report that was given to the former Minister. The report that was given to the former Minister was the report from the Auditor-General. The forensic audit started only after the Minister had gone, and she had left terms of reference which we gave to the professor who was doing the forensic audit. He did those, but new questions arose and we have given him those questions.
I want to assure you there is nothing that we are going to hide. As soon as that final report comes to us, we will hand it over to the portfolio committee's chairperson. There is nothing to hide. Whether it is good or bad, we will give it to you, so do not keep saying there is a hidden report somewhere.
Three, the State Information Technology Agency board is the one that stopped the tender from being finalised at Sita, and they instituted a forensic audit. So, it is appropriate for them to bring it here, and our director-general will be there. Do not worry about sanitisation. That will not happen. Everything will be presented. If the department did something wrong, it will be said. Both the current and former director-general will be there, so you will be able to deal with matters right there, on the spot. I wanted to clear that up.
I also want to deal with some of the problems. Yes, just as you receive all these e-mails, I receive SMSs and all sorts of things. The difference is that I do not bring them here, I deal with them. [Applause.] But as long as you send them to us, we will try and assist, because that is what we do.
I am sure that if hon member Balindlela was really worried about changes to her passport and ID taking a long time, she would have come to me and said, "Hey, Minister...". But she waited so that she could report it here. It is fine, hon member, we understand. [Laughter.]
I now want to deal with a very difficult problem, one that is causing the public a lot of grief. This is the problem of duplicate IDs. That is causing a lot of problems. I will not go into detail, because I do not have a lot of time. I just want to say that part of the problem was that in the past the rule stated you had to find out the facts of both people before you resolved the problem. That is what made some of the problems last for so long.
We have changed that now. We now deal with the issue of the person who approached us, and in that way we have now been able to reduce that backlog from 29 000 to about 6 000. [Applause.] I do not have enough time to say all those things, but we are dealing with it.
I also want to say something about our employees. The budget for employees has increased. In 2009-10, the increase was R1,6 million, now it is R1,9 million. Next it will be R2,1 million, so I do not know about your arithmetic!
I want to say to hon Mulder, yes, as far as I know, Van Riebeeck landed here, caused havoc, oppressed us, colonised us, did everything. Yes, the economy is great, but the majority is poor. The majority of the minority who colonised us is rich. So, I am not saying the economy is not good, but it is skewed. Let us have another debate, if you want, but that is a fact. We cannot say it is not factual. It is factual and I stand by what I said.
Perhaps, hon Mnqasela, I should address you by the title you normally use when you write to me: the Deputy Shadow Minister of Home Affairs. [Laughter.] The reason I have not had a meeting with you is that you give me very short notice. I cannot deal with that. At least, if you say to me we should meet, I can look at my diary, but if you say you want to meet me at a certain time on a certain day, it is difficult, hon Shadow Minister. [Laughter.]
On the question of the Appeal Board, yes, we will try to look at that, and we are dealing with SADC members. I had meetings with my counterparts from Lesotho, because that is where one of the major problems is, and we have agreed on certain things, which I will explain. I know we do not have the time now, but we are dealing with that. We are going to be meeting with them one by one, and then meet collectively. We are dealing with that.
Chairperson, do I still have my two minutes? Oh, good. I also want to deal with the audit. We are very honest with you: we are not expecting a clean audit within two years, not before 2012-13. Because we have quantified the problems, we are putting measures in place, but we have seen that we will not have a clean audit for another two years. We are honest about this, but we are doing our work in order to get there, and we hope that we will get there. [Applause.]
So, I hope next year you will not be asking what is happening with the audit. In the portfolio committee, we can tell you what measures we are putting in place and why we are saying it will take us at least two years to get there. We will not claim easy victories. We will just tell you the truth. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The Committee rose at 17:12.
END
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