Hansard: NCOP: Questions on the social services cluster

House: National Council of Provinces

Date of Meeting: 31 May 2010

Summary

No summary available.


Minutes

TUESDAY, 1 JUNE 2010

PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

_______

The Council met at 14:04.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP


Start of Day

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. However, before we proceed, I would like to bring it to the attention of members that the Minister of Health and the Minister of Sport and Recreation have tendered their apologies. Therefore, I have asked that responses to their questions be in writing.

We will now proceed with the questions on the social services cluster. I can see that not all our Ministers have arrived. Therefore, I will rather go to questions to those particular Ministers when they are here.

QUESTION 25


The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP

Question 25:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, yes, the Department of Education has launched the Rapid Assessment and Remediation Intervention, Rari, programme in January 2010. The Rari programme specifically targets those schools that have achieved below 20% in the 2009 national certificate examination. The provincial departments of education developed plans to assist these schools. The plans have been presented to the Department of Basic Education. The Department of Basic Education and the provincial departments of education will monitor and support these schools.

Provincial departments of education provide quarterly progress reports on the plan to the Department of Basic Education for monitoring and evaluation and to ensure that the plans are implemented effectively.

In addition, both the Minister and I have been visiting provinces, and we tend to ensure that we visit those schools that are dysfunctional or underperforming. We do so in collaboration with the provinces.

With regard to the second part of the question, the Department has analysed existing data within the system as well as the pass rate of matric learners and developed a plan to improve the performance of 2010 matriculants. The data analysed suggests that the largest number of schools performed between 40% and 60%. The plan is therefore targeted at these schools.

Information derived from the survey conducted on underperforming schools indicated that the biggest challenges are on textbooks, teacher development and management issues. The plan was therefore structured around these challenges and focuses on the following four pillars: Firstly, teaching and learning; secondly, ensuring functionalities in schools; thirdly, community mobilisation; and fourthly, district development and support. The department will develop guideline documents for teachers, learners, parents, NGOs and other community structures to assist with defining roles and responsibilities and helping the community to assist schools with challenges.

Finally, yes, the Minister and the director-general have made statements from time to time and will continue to do so at the appropriate time. Thank you, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Deputy Minister. This is just to remind members that the time for replies is 5 minutes; the time for asking a supplementary question is 2 minutes; and the time for a reply to a supplementary question is 4 minutes. Only 4 supplementary questions are allowed per question.

Prince Zulu, do you have a supplementary question?

Prince M M M ZULU: No, I am satisfied with the reply.

Mr D A WORTH: Chair, I would like to ask the Deputy Minister what overcrowding in classrooms and schools contributes towards the poor pass rate in schools. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, Mr Worth, for the question that has been posed. Obviously overcrowding does contribute to the poor performance in that educators would not have an opportunity of paying particular individual attention to the learners. So, one of the consequences of overcrowding is the lack of attention that is provided to the learners and the lack of the kind of support that would be provided to the learners under normal conditions.

We have, as the Department of Education, working very closely with the provinces, been trying to ensure that we reduce the educator-learner ratio significantly. We have succeeded in most provinces. However, a reality that confronts us is the fact that there is a huge migration that's occurring, particularly from rural areas, intraprovinces and interprovinces. In other words, this takes place within a province from rural to urban areas, as well as from one province to the other. For example, you will discover that many of the learners from the Eastern Cape are studying in the Western Cape because their parents are employed in Cape Town. This contributes to the overpopulation in township schools and a reduction of learners in the rural schools.

In conclusion, we have introduced a learning tracking system called Lurits. We have completed about 70% of data on this. What this would do – this is by March next year - is that we would be able to punch the name of a learner and get the learner's information of previous schooling in primary and high school, the subjects the learner did and the learner's performance report. This would also assist us in determining what the migration patterns are within districts and provinces. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr A LEES: Mr Chairman, through you to the Deputy Minister, does the analysis on reasons for poor performance include the impact or nonimpact that teaching in the home language may have had upon those results?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the Department of Basic Education has been aware for some time of the importance of teaching in the mother tongue. Therefore, it is the policy of the department that at least in the first three years, the language of learning and teaching must be in the mother tongue. This does not exclude a first or second additional language. What we have been arguing for is the assimilation and integration of the additional language because by doing that too late, the learner would be disadvantaged in the sense that he or she would have to acquire skills in a new language. But the language of learning and teaching should be a mother tongue language. This has contributed significantly to the improvement of the results on the basis of assessments that have been undertaken.

The mother tongue programme is again supported by the foundations for learning programme, which pays particular attention to literacy and numeracy. The resource materials of this particular programme are in all eleven official languages. We can state that we have gone even beyond that this year. Every Grade R class in the country has resource materials as well as a guide for educators in each one of the official languages. So, for the first time we have a national curriculum that has been provided to more than 550 000 learners who are in the preparatory class in the school. We do believe that this will impact positively in terms of performance. Thank you very much, Chairperson and hon member.

Mr A WATSON: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, thank you very much for your reply with regard to the plans that your department has put in place to halt the failure rate and the poor pass rate. I am also pleased to hear that you and the Minister worked on a fact-finding mission to the provinces, particularly at those schools where problems are at the highest level.

Now, I would like to know how these plans you have made impact on and embrace the problem we have in Mpumalanga? As we all know, we are entering the mid-year exams and the schools are closing in nine days' time. How will these plans solve the problem of matriculants who still do not have handbooks in Mpumalanga because the department is failing to pay the supplier of the school books despite the fact that they are now writing mid-year exams? This is a big problem for us. I would like to hear your answer.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, one of the central approaches of the department in relation to the success in schools that are underperforming is, firstly, to ensure that every learner has a textbook in his or her possession. This is an intervention. In fact, this is our task.

Secondly, the department has to ensure that educators or teachers have the appropriate content knowledge in the areas that they are teaching. Pedagogy is one part, but the content or substantive issues in relation to the subject that is being taught is very critical.

Thirdly, the department will - in fact I am very happy to announce that all provinces have bought into the suggestion in terms of our last discussion - utilise this period of the World Cup as an opportunity to ensure that learners get the benefit of the mornings. So, educators and learners will be meeting in schools. Some provinces like the Western Cape have a programme from Grade R to 12 and some province have it from Grade 10 to 12, where learners are going to utilise the time for winter vacation to ensure that they have a further opportunity to make up and augment learning that is so critical, especially for Grade 12 learners.

So, there is a programme. We cannot be prescriptive. Each province will look at its challenges. I can tell you that Mpumalanga definitely forms part of this particular programme. The two provinces that have been right ahead are Gauteng and the Western Cape in this regard.

But I have been to the Free State, and the Minister has been to Mpumalanga and Limpopo. I can tell you that all the provinces are utilising this opportunity because what we want to create is an opportunity where we can balance the academic performance of the learners with recreation and sport. So, we are saying that the World Cup is there to celebrate; they must participate in it. But the games take place in the afternoons and in the evenings. How do they then spend their mornings productively to ensure that academically they are not disadvantaged? It seems there is great enthusiasm from the learners, and we will mobilize communities on this particular issue as well. Thank you, Chairperson and Mr Watson.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Pardon me, Chairperson. My question is on Question 30. The Minister is still dealing with Question 25. Thank you.

Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, I actually just want to raise the issue that the matric pass rate in Bushbuckridge area is very low, but the corresponding Grade 11s are recording a high pass rate. There is a disjuncture that exists between the two. I just want to know whether the department has already picked up this kind of problem that the Grade 11 learners have a different assessment which does not correspond with that of Grade 12 learners and whether there is anything that department is doing about this. Thanks, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, this is a matter of great concern where there is disparity in terms of the assessment and ability of learners' performance in Grades 11 and 12. Certainly what the department does is in relation to your system. We have a National Curriculum Statement - the GET band, which is from Grade R to Grade 9 and the FET band for Grade 10, 11 and 12. We are trying to work towards a single system from Grade R to 12. This means that there shouldn't be a distinction between Grades. There should be continuity; education should be a continuum.

Secondly, we do believe that assessment is very critical and central. External moderation is very important so that learners are not allowed to pass from Grade to Grade without having the appropriate ability to move to another class because ultimately you then pay the price in Grade 12. So, the external moderation from circuits and districts becomes quite central to the performance of schools.

Thirdly, we have produced guidelines in terms of assessment and in terms of the teaching and learning of different subjects so that teachers would have a better sense of how to assess learners.

With regard to Bushbuckridge in particular, besides the abject poverty in which the community lives, there has been huge problems in relation to the support that the schools receive from districts. There has been a lot of political battles that have been fought in the particular area in relation to management issues. These have now been corrected.

There has also been poor leadership, which has contributed to nonfunctioning in schools. The Minister has sent out a team to the place and she personally visited the schools on no less than two occasions. I personally had the benefit in the previous term of going to Bushbuckridge. This is quite amazing, and perhaps I should share this with you anecdotally. We have two high schools within a kilometre of each other. The one is performing at over 80% and the other is performing at less than 30%. The reason for this is the commitment, leadership and management of the schools. So, these are things that the department is looking at. We have a dedicated team that has been sent to Bushbuckridge to assist the provincial department in ensuring that we improve on the overall results of the school.

So, our focus is not only on Grade 12, but on the school as a whole because it's how a learner progresses from Grade to Grade that counts. So, the hon member is indeed correct to say that one can't pay attention to Grade 12 and forget about Grade 11. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

QUESTION 23


QUESTION 25

Question 23:

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, once again I feel a little bit embarrassed that I have to take you back on the programme. So, I want to sincerely apologise to you and to the House as well.

The response to the question raised by Mr De Beer is that a joint prefeasibility study undertaken between South Africa and Namibia has identified the construction of a dam near Vioolsdrift as a viable alternative to increase the available water yield from the Orange River.

However, a feasibility study to confirm water demands, the environmental flow requirements, optimisation of the size of storage that is required and the engineering design and cost of development is still required. So, there is still outstanding technical work that should reinforce the initial sense that we have as a department.

Prior to this feasibility study, both countries will embark on an initial baseline environmental monitoring of the river this year. Currently, there are ongoing negotiations with Namibia regarding the sharing of costs of the feasibility study, as well as the principles for sharing development costs and sharing water resources. Thank you, Chair.

Mr A LEES: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Minister, with regard to the funding required for this dam, would there be any implications for the Lesotho Highlands Water project. In other words, would there be a trade-off between the schemes or is that not an issue?

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, there will not necessarily be a trade-off, hon member. Maybe this is a prediction of certain things that will happen in the future if you do well in your election campaign. [Interjections.]

No, it is not going to be as such. But these countries have been working together even on the Lesotho Highlands Water project. We have, for some time now, been eyeing that kind of arrangement for the Orange River itself. So, there is some form of working together. I don't know what you actually mean by "trade-off". But the the Lesotho Highlands Project remains that project. If there is to be a second phase of that project, we will then have another process, and that process is already underway. So, there is not going to be a trade-off, if you mean it in that context.

If we need funding, of course, the manner in which we have been funding projects of this magnitude – through TCTA, Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority,– will still prevail even for this particular project. This is because TCTA is not only confined to helping Lesotho. We will look at the same model even with other projects of this size - that is, raising money from the bond markets and so on. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Bafer.

Mr W F FABER: Not Bafer; Bafer must be a soccer star. [Laughter.] I am just Faber, the German Faber.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, I'm trying to memorise your name.

Mr W F FABER: Chair, in the Orange River system, where we in the Northern Cape always suck on the hind tit of a cow, there was a possibility a year or two ago that a dam would be built downwards. We would like to find out from the Minister if that possibility still exists.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: I did not get the question from Mr Faber quite well. Could he repeat the area that he is asking about?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Could you repeat that, Mr Faber?

Mr W F FABER: It was from the Upington area down to the Springbok area, more towards the vast areas. They were speaking about perhaps building a dam in that area.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it clear, hon Minister?

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: I don't have those details yet, Mr Faber. I will come back to you in that regard. However, I know for a fact that the area in which the De Beers mining ship is – where the Orange River divides Namibia and South Africa – has had some activity in terms of how we share the water in that area. Should we look at constructing a dam or should this dam also be an answer to that? But I will get the actual details of this. This is my old knowledge of the story. I don't know what the latest developments on the matter are as we speak. But I promise to come back with that information. Thank you.

Mr D A WORTH: Chair, I'm sorry that I have to harp on about the Lesotho Highlands Water project. But I'm from the Free State province, so I'm interested in this.

We have the Katse Dam there, and I think it has been agreed that a second dam is in the process of being built. However, the overall Lesotho Highlands Water project makes provision for three dams eventually or there is a possibility of a third dam. Has that been explored? Do you think that is a possibility, Minister? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: This has been explored and it is a possibility. That is what will constitute phase two.

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chair, since we are talking about building dams and the scarcity of water and so on, especially in a place like the Eastern Cape province, I would just like to ask the Minister, as I think I did in my debate speech, whether there is any price increase for water in the pipeline and when will it be effective. Thank you, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That sounds like a new question altogether. When we ask supplementary questions, Mr Feldman, they are on the questions written on the paper. So, I don't allow new questions.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, I would like to ask the Minister whether there is a memorandum of understanding between the two countries, and what the percentage of the budget is that will be shared for building the dam.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, there is a standing co-operation agreement in this regard. But the details of working out cost-sharing will come when the business plan has been completed. I think it would be premature for me to give a response on how we will deal with that matter. However, there is a mechanism to work out the cost-sharing burden between countries. Fortunately, the experience that we gained from the Lesotho Highlands project will guide and inform us. But this is still very much in the early stages. These issues come almost towards the end of the process.

In spite of the fact that the Chairperson ruled that I should not answer the question, I think I am tempted just to say one thing. There is no price increase for water tariff in the pipeline. This is an elongated process that starts with the ANC and it goes to all stakeholders, then there is consultation with all players, water users and the society of South Africa at large. We cannot just increase water tariff because any increase in this has an inflationary effect. So, there is no way that we can just take this lightly because this is not a decision we can take lightly.

But I want to say that water boards, on an annual basis, do increase the tariff in line with annual inflation. But this is not a general increase of the price of water. If we were to increase the price water by way of a general increase, it would then have an impact on the tariffs that the water boards charge. In other words, the percentages that they demand now to increase their tariffs annually would then be even higher. Let us make an example of the 18 times that has been touted in the media. If we were to do that, it would mean that the prices that we have now would increase 18 times higher. Then, when a percentage is put on that, one would surely come out with a bigger amount.

So, I'm saying that we cannot take that lightly. That is why I was tempted to answer this question so that people are clear. But if people want to pose a new question on this matter, I can come back and explain. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay. I am sure your temptation has worked for Mr Feldman. Thank you very much, Minister.

QUESTION 27

QUESTION 23

Question 27:

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, in response to the question asked by hon Rasmeni I have to say that the two million children who are to be taken will be progressively registered They will go into the register and the social assistance safety net over the next three years as a result of this policy change which allows all children born after 31 December 1993 to access child support grants. The expected number of children who will be taken up this year is 734 000.

SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, has already started taking applications from qualifying children. As at May 2010, we have already registered and begun the distribution of grants to 276 142 children aged between 15 and 16 years. In this number, 26 767 are those who are about 16 years old. This represents 41% of the target to be reached, which is one of the largest registrations we have done in such a short space of time. Sassa is in a position to take up the additional children over the next three financial years.

The social assistance grants are government's major poverty alleviation programmes. To date, as we may well be aware, a total of 14,1 million people here in South Africa receive these grants, which are paid on a monthly basis and no longer on a quarterly basis, by the way. We do this in order to alleviate poverty. Sassa and the department are in possession of very good evidence-based knowledge that indicates that indeed this proves to be one of the largest poverty alleviation measures.

This programme is also implemented in partnership with other stakeholders to ensure that we access and reach out to many outstanding people. Departments like Home Affairs, Health and Social Development, our traditional leaders, municipalities, the SAPS - obviously working with Sassa - are some of the stakeholders. The programme is a one-stop government service - Integrated Community Outreach Programme, Icrop - which is intended to ensure that grants are accessible to as many people as possible.

Other poverty alleviation initiatives include the strategy to link existing social grants beneficiaries to sustainable child economic opportunities that are available, as well as the conditional extension of child support grants which we know has been put in place this year. It is intended to ensure that children who receive child support grants remain in school. This programme of ensuring that children remain in school is indeed an ANC-led government's major contribution to ensuring that our children have access to education as we know that education is the most important tool in breaking intergenerational poverty.

As I have already said, the evidence-based research that we have conducted clearly indicates that the various grants contribute positively to school attendance and job seekers - people who are able to get up and look for jobs. It ensures that the poor are able to acquire basic needs like food, clothing, and so on.

We also have a programme called Icrop, which I referred to earlier on. This programme has resulted in ensuring that we reach about 200 000 additional people who are able to access social grants.

The conditionality of the social grants has also been introduced as from this year, as we know. This has been done so that we can reach as many people as we should.

This is actually the response I felt I should give to the two areas of the question that has been asked by the hon member. Thank you very much.

Mrs R M RASMENI: Chairperson, I am satisfied.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Any other follow up question? We are all satisfied. Hon Bloem, you can't raise up your hand now after everybody is satisfied. [Interjections.] Ask your question, hon member.

Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I hear that the Minister says this is part of poverty alleviation. But can the Minister tell us if these social grants are sustainable, and if so, for how long will they be sustainable?

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, hon Chair. I have indicated in this august House before that the social assistance programme, in its entirety and totality, is a poverty alleviation programme. Alleviation in simple English means that we are temporarily or just alleviating poverty and not really eradicating it. There are other programmes that are intended to really eradicate poverty. This is an intervention mechanism to ensure that our people are able to live.

I have also indicated that this programme has had impact in that children who receive this kind of grant are able to be enrolled in school. Those who are poor and don't have food, etc can buy food clothing and so on. So, this is an intervention mechanism. It is still going to be there as long as our people are still suffering and until we have completely eradicated poverty. [Applause.] I thank you.

QUESTION 29


QUESTION 27

Question 29:

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, the approach to integrate all races is central to the mandate of this department, and as such the advancement of social cohesion, which is our comandate. It has therefore been done through various programmes within the Department of Arts and Culture. In October 2009, we held the Social Cohesion Colloquium in Durban, KwaZulu Natal, mainly to start a national dialogue on social cohesion. A national conference on social cohesion will be held later this year, and it will be led by President Jacob Zuma.

The department supports rural community projects that educate young people, women and people with disabilities about arts, culture, and heritage sector. We have signed a framework of collaboration with the Department of Basic Education through which we collaborate in the promotion and education of our children in schools about arts and culture programmes. We have also ensured that we assist the department by deploying some of our artists as art teachers to support the department. We set up community art centres even in some of our rural areas in partnership with the provincial and local government.

The department also offers funding through its agencies like the National Heritage Council and the National Arts Council, which are accessible to many people, including those in the rural areas. We have looked at the promotion of African classics, which is a project that promotes African classical literature written in indigenous languages and the culture of reading. These include books such as Mhudi by Sol Plaatjie, and A C Jordan's Ingqumbo Yeminyanya, The Wrath of the Ancestors, and many others in our indigenous languages.

The department will use the Youth Month as a platform to popularise the correct singing of the national anthem and the internationalisation of the etiquette thereof. The national anthem should be regarded as a national prayer which is sung with seriousness and calmness. We don't expect our young people to be walking around when we sing the national anthem. We expect young and all men to take off their hats. We don't expect everyone to put their hands on their chests unless you are the President of the country. [Applause.] All of us must simply stand to attention and sing it properly.

IsiXhosa:

Ungazonwayi nokuba uhanjwa ziimpukane ebusweni, nyamezela, uziyeke zehle zisenyuka ezo mpukane kude kugqitywe uMhobe weSizwe.

[Do not move your hand, even if flies are irritating you until the singing of the national anthem is finished.]

English:

Through most of the projects above and many more we have demonstrated that we are indeed united in our diversity. As we all know, our national anthem is sung in five South African languages. It is inclusive of all races, most of our different tribes and languages in the country. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

IsiZulu:

Mnu D D GAMEDE: Sihlalo, uNgqongqoshe uphathe indaba yosuku lwabantu abasha, u-June 16. Ngqongqoshe, ingabe-ke njengoba siya ku-June 16, zikhona yini izinhlelo ezikhona zokuthi lolu suku silugubhe sonke singabantu baseNingizimu Afrika, singaboni abamnyama bodwa begubha lolu suku? Nokuthi, ngabe zikhona yini izinhlelo ezihlelwa umnyango, ikakhulukazi ngokubambisana nohulumeni bezifundazwe, njengakwaZulu-Natal. Ngiyabnga.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOBUCIKO NAMASIKO: Sihlalo, ngempela ukhona umsebenzi esiwenzayo ukugqugquzela ubunye bethu nobunye besizwe okubhekene no-June 16.

Kunohlelo elwenziwayo, sizobe sisebenza nenstha singuhulumeni. Kuzobe kunemashi ezobe iyisikhumbuzo saleliya langa, mhlazana abantwana bemasha besuka Morris Isaacson, bahambe baze bayofika lapho kwangwcatshwa khona u-Oscar Peterson.

Sizosuka lapho-ke sihamba nazo zonke izihambi zethu nabadlali bethu abazobe beze kwiNdebe Yomhlaba ka-2010, ikakhulukazi labo abavela emazweni ase-Afrika. Sinawo-ke amakhonsathi, amafestivali. Siqalile nge-Afrika Day, ukwenza amakhonsathi, lapho ebesigxile khona kwabomdabu bala eNingizimu Afrika, nababuya e-Afrika ngobubanzi. Sisho sithi sizobambisana nabo noma sekuyiwa emicimbini yokuvula nokuvala, bazobe bekhona labo ababuya emazweni ase-Afrika, ikakhulukazi labo abaphumelele ukungena emqhudelwaneni, esibabiza nge- 6 pack. Amazwe ayisithupha ase-Afrika aphumelele ukungenela umqhudelwano [The six African qualifying countries], simbandakanya neNingizimu Afrika. Sithi Bafana Bafana ndizani.

English:

Bafana Bafana has really made us proud. [Siyaziqhenya kakhulu ngeBafana Bafana.]

IsiZulu:

Ngakho-ke, ngazo zonke lezi zinhlelo sizoya kuma-PVA, nasezifundazweni, nakulawo madolobha azosingatha imidlalo. Sizohambisa amakhonsathi, sinabo nabaculi ababuya e-Afrika nabuya ko-Sadec, kanye nawethu ala eNingizimu Afrika. Sizobe sithi-ke sibambisana kanjalo futhi silwisana nokucwasana ngobuhlanga, silwa nokucwaswa kwabantu abaphuma emazweni angaphandle. Sibonakalisa ukuthi siyakwazi ukuthi sisebenzisene ngokubambisana njengezwe nanjenge-Afrika yonkana. Ngiyabonga.

USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Labo abangazange babukele umabonakude izolo, iBafana Bafana iphumelele ngamanqaku ayisihlanu eqandeni - 5-0. Ngiyabonga.

English:

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, I just want to bring a slight correction. I think the Minister in her haste to expand and explain about the processes that she has been talking about; she unfortunately, mentioned the named of Oscar Petersen who is an acclaimed jazz pianist and one of my favourites instead of saying Hector Peterson. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: I am sorry, Chairperson. I meant to say Hector Peterson. It is just that I support artists, and I hope that Hector was also going to be one.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is understood, Minister.

Mr D B FELDMAN: Hon Chair, I want to thank the Minister for her response. But I want to say that we all sing the same anthem and that we are working together for a better life. I would just like the Minister to elaborate on one thing. When will the Department of Arts and Culture think of giving us all a national identity, or is there already a programme in action to give us all a national identity. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Well, I think we already have a national identity through all our national symbols, especially our flag. I think South Africans are all flying the flag. I think when we go to our townships and even when we are driving our cars, many South Africans are flying the flag. When we also go to the stadia, we see South African flags proudly flying from all our population groups. Our young kids and the youth also have their faces painted, showing off their flag and our colours.

I also believe that through the national anthem, we have been able to unite the nation. This is an anthem that is a product of huge consultations and debates, and all of us agreed that there is something which makes us proud and have a sense of belonging in our national anthem. I have already referred to the different languages that are used in the national anthem.

I think the whole programme and focus of our department, which is social cohesion and nation-building, is a programme that builds and unites South Africa to ensure that we have one national identity. I am also reminded by the Minister here that our Coat of Arms is also another important symbol that goes even way back and uses the language of our ancestors, the Khoisan people of South Africa. Therefore, I think this government has gone out of its way to ensure that we are united. It is now behest upon all of us to teach our children and our constituencies.

This year the President has even launched a new campaign that all political party leaders in Parliament must attend national days. They have also been given an opportunity to speak at the national days because when we have Freedom Day or Human Rights Day, it is all about our liberation and freedom. All of us have a responsibility to defend this hard-won democracy if we claim to be democrats. [Applause.]

I think the government has done all it can. But I want to say that "working together we can do more". [Applause.]

QUESTION 30


QUESTION 29

Question 30:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, Mr Gamede, thank you for raising this important issue.

The Department of Basic Education is monitoring the implementation of inclusive education in our provinces. The department monitors the implementation in the following ways. Firstly, provinces provide reports and progress made in the implementation of inclusive education in provincial, district and school levels. The reports highlight successes as well as challenges faced in the implementation of inclusive education.

Secondly, specialised audits are conducted to measure progress made and make recommendations for interventions at both full service and special schools.

With regard to where the implementation has taken place, the first stage of the policy implementation took place in 30 districts, 30 full-service schools, and 34 special schools in the poorest part of all nine provinces between 2002 and 2009. During this phase, the Department of Basic Education aimed to introduce a number of systemic measures which would lay the foundation for a system-wide implementation of the policy for inclusive education in South Africa.

With regard to progress achieved, I will just name a few things. The budget for implementing the policy was expanded by the National Treasury from R0 to R1,5 billion over the period of three years, that is from 2008 to 2011. More than 7 000 educators and officials have been trained on the key policy implementation guidelines. These include guidelines for inclusive teaching and learning and the National Strategy On Screening, Identification, Assessment and Support. Guidelines for full-service or inclusive schools and guidelines for quality education in special schools and special school resource centres have been distributed to managers throughout the system of education, and they are also used by universities as material for teacher development.

The principle of environmental access has been included in the national school infrastructure norms, and no new schools that are not accessible will be built. Officials in 30 districts in the country have been trained on the requirements of running an inclusive education system. Special schools know what the implications of the changing role are within an inclusive landscape. At least 30% of the budget allocated by the National Treasury has been made available to raise standards of physical infrastructure in curriculum delivery in special schools to improve quality education, quality teaching and learning. A total of 912 children in 34 schools have received appropriate assistive devices which will enable them to have access to education. We spent R20 million in the current year, and more money will be spent for this particular purpose.

With regard to progress in KwaZulu-Natal, this province has developed a provincial strategy for the implementation of inclusive education. The roll-out of the provincial strategy to establish schools as inclusive centres of learning, care and support commenced in 2008. The strategy shows that the first phase of implementation would spend the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period 2008 to March 2012. This would cover the establishment of 50 full-service schools, the piloting of a provincial model of a special school as a resource centre and the strengthening of 16 special schools identified to be potential SSRCs, Special Schools as Resource Centres. These identified full-service schools and SSRCs are allocated in all 12 educational districts within the provinces. The exact location of these schools can be obtained from the provincial education district offices.

In conclusion, we recently had a mini World Cup, and we had 6 884 schools participating. I'm very proud to stand up here and say that amongst the categories of learners - the under-18 and under-16 boy and girl learners - we had a special category for our special schools. Amongst the 96 games that were played in the finals, there was a devoted category for learners with disabilities. This means that they are caring. A humane society would pay a particular attention to learners with special needs. Yet, the challenges are great. But together we can do more. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Chair, it would just be to ask the Minister to forward the copy of the response, if possible.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, I appreciate the response from the Deputy Minister. The concern I want to raise hinges on other provinces and certain towns. This is mostly in the rural areas, where you find that there are certain pockets in towns and provinces where inclusivity and access is not promoted. To this extent, we still have some schools using residents of pupils, fees and language in order to exclude others. I'm looking mostly at the principle of the transformation of our schooling system to ensure that it becomes inclusive of both the disabled and various nationalities without any discrimination. I want to know if we have a process within the Ministry which has begun to outline steps that could be taken, particularly against schools, or rather some rules which could be applicable to ensure that the problem of inclusivity and access to schools becomes something that all South Africans can enjoy. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Thank you very much, hon member, for raising the concern. Indeed, we share the concern. It's for this reason that there has been a paradigm shift. Chairperson, you would probably be aware that prior to 1994, special schools were located principally in white areas, cities and towns. So, you would have them in Pietermaritzburg, Cape Town and Johannesburg, and hardly inside a rural area. We have moved quite a long way in this regard in order to ensure that we provide access.

In fact, the 30 districts that have been identified are all rural with particular needs. The special schools that have established are all in those areas that are rural by nature where there were facilities available. The conversion of schools into full-service schools is also in areas where there has been no access in the past. So, there is a particular bias in terms of equity and opportunity for access to our historically disadvantaged areas. Therefore, this indeed is a paradigm shift in terms of what we have to do.

But the challenges are great. In fact, if there is one difficult area, it is the area of disability. You cannot look at individual deficits, but you have to look at this systematically. Because of its very diverse nature, there are very complex arrangements that have to be taken into account. It is issues of mainstreaming wherever possible, screening, facilities, resources and training. This in itself is a largely complex area.

What I can share with the hon member in the House is that we have moved forward. Yet, as I've indicated before sitting down, the challenges are still great, and we have to do much more in order to achieve that. But the concern with regard to where the emphasis is, this is certainly in the rural areas amongst the poorest of the poor, particularly with a view to ensure that people are not discriminated against on the basis of class, language or culture. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, I want to raise a concern, especially with regard to the situation we are facing in Bushbuckridge. We only have one, FET college in Acornhoek. Up to now, this is the only institution of higher learning in an area of about more than one million people.

Now, I want to know from the Deputy Minister whether there is any more biasness towards these kinds of FET colleges, where there are not even other universities or residences as compared to in towns where it is a choice to go to an FET college or a university or a technikon. The situation in Bushbuckridge is in such a way that this particular FET college is the only one in the area. Is there any attention that is being given to this so that the people can get ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, on a point of order: May I just assist the hon member. Question 31(a) has been asked to the Minister of Higher Education and Training. I believe that he will be able to adequately deal with the matter. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was going to rule this out anyway.

QUESTION 31


QUESTION 30

Question 31:

IsiZulu :

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EPHAKEME NOKUQEQESHA: Ngibonge bab'uMahlangu, uSihlalo waleNdlu ehloniphekile, ngibonge naku lungu ubab'uGamede ngokubuza lombuzo. Iphendulo yethu ukuthi uhulumeni uvele uyayikhipha imifundaze yokusiza abafundi abantulayo futhi abazimisele ngokuqhubeka nezifundo zabo phambili emakolishi.

Bonke abafundi abafunda ezikoleni zokufundela amakhono ezandla bathola uxhaso lomfundaze, okungumfundaze okhishwa wuMnyango Wezemfundo Ephakeme Nokuqeqesha. Kodwa ke umfundi silindele ukuthi uma sikhipha leyomali ukuba akhombise ukuzimisela ekuphaseni izifundo azibhalisele, ukuze akwazi ukuthola usizo lomfundaze wokuqhubekela phambili.

UMnyango Wezemfundo Ephakame Nokuqeqesha uyaye ukhiphe umfundaze ukuxhasa abafundi abantulayo. Leyo mfundaze iyiswa emakolishi bese kuba yiwo amakolishi ashoyo ukuthi-ke ngokukhethwa kwabo abafundi kuzonikwa baphi abafundi, yibaphi abafundi abadinga lolu sizo. Abafundi bangabhalisa kunoma yiliphi ikolishi abalithandayo ukuthola lolu xhaso lomfundaze. Ngaleyo ndlela abafundi abahlala ezindaweni ezifana noGingindlovu, Inkandla, KwaMbonambi kanye naseMnambithi ababhalisele ukufunda ezikoleni zokufundela amakhono ezandla bayasizakala kumfundaze wamakolishi okhishwa yilo Mnyango wethu.

Mayelana nodaba lokuthi kube khona indawo eyodwa la abafundi bethumela khona izicelo zokuya emakolishi, Alikakabi bikho lolu hlelo njengamanje kodwa-ke umsebenzi esiwenzayo ukuthi besifuna ukuthi uma kuphela lonyaka ozayo sibesesibhekene nalenkinga. Into eyenza ukuthi kuze kube ukuphela konyaka ka2010 umningi umsebenzi wokwenza lento.

Siyakubona kunesidingo impela ukuthi abafundi abacela ukuya emaNyuvesi noma ukuya emakolishi ukuthi ibe yinye indawo la beyocela khona. Bangalokhu bekhokha izimali bebhalela izikhungo eziningi. Into eyenza ukuthi ithathe isikhashanyana, sinenkinga ukuthi uzothola ukuthi yileyo naleyo Nyuvesi, yilelo nalelo kolishi linohlelo lwayo lokwenza lezi zinto esithi: ulwazi Lwezobuchwepheshe. Kusho ukuthi kofanele ukuthi senze isiqiniseko sokuthi wonke amakhompuyutha lawa ayasebenzelana, ayakwazi ukuxhumana ukuze kube lula ukuthi sikwazi ukwenza lolu hlelo.

Kodwa-ke kuwumbono lona omuhle ovezwa ubab'uGamede okuyinto nathi esiyibhekile. Sizosebenza-ke futhi singoNgqongqoshe beZemfundo sobabili nomam'uMotshekga ukubhekelela ukuthi lento singenza kanjani ukuthi yenzeke ngendlela eyiyo, ukuze kubukisiswe ukuthi uhlelo olufanayo lokufaka izicelo zabafundi luyazeka kanye nasezikoleni ukuze sazi ukuthi lolwazi lukhona ukuthi umfundi uma esesikoleni izokwenzeka kanjani yonke leyonto. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.

IsiZulu:

Mnu D D GAMEDE: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe, Mphephethwa siyabonga ukuthola impendulo nokuzwa ukuthi kuzothatha isikhashanyana.

Kodwa-ke mhlawumbe ukuzama ukubuza ukulandelela Ngqongqoshe, ukuthi kulesi sikhashana kungakalungi, ngoba abafundi abahlala ezindaweni zasemakhaya bayahlupheka. Njalo uma kuqala unyaka, abanye nje bayashoda ngemali yokuthi bangene ezikoleni. Lukhona yini mhlawumbe olucatshangwa yilo Mnyango ukwazi ukusiza ukuthi bangene nje ezikoleni, bese kuqhubeka ngoba basuke bembondelane ndawonye ngesikhathi esisodwa. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.

IsiZulu:

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EPHAKEME NOKUQEQESHA: Lungu elihloniphekile, bab'uGamede okunye engikhohlwe ukukucacisa embuzweni wakho ukuthi abafundi abacela ukuyofunda emakolishi, abakhokhi mali ngokwenza izicelo. Imali abayikhokhayo kuphela kuba yile yokubhalisa, kodwa kusukela kulonyaka njengoba ilungu elihloniphekile lazi. Sithe laba bafundi abantulayo abavele bezothola uxhaso lukahulumeni abangalindelwa ukuthi kubekhona imali enye abazoyikhokha phambili.

Lizokhumbula-ke futhi ilungu elihloniphekile ukuthi njengamanje siphezu komsebenzi wokucubungula izincomo ezenziwe yilela komidi engangilikhombile ukuthi keliphenye mayelana nesikhwama esisiza abafundi "i-National Student Financial Aid Scheme". Ezinye zezincomo ezenziwa yilela komidi engingasho ukuthi sengisamukele kodwa esizibukayo. Abafundi abantulayo abaya emakolishi bangakhokhi ngisho isenti, sisazokucubungula lokho ukuthi kusho ukuthini ikakhulukazi emakolishi.

Nanokuthi emaNyuvesi nakhona lolo hlelo siyoluqala kanjani. Zonke lezi zinkinga ubab'uGamede akhuluma ngazo zikulosomqulu wombiko wekomidi leli engangilikhombile. Njengamanje nje siwuMnyango siphezu komsebenzi wokuyibuka lento siyifakele izibuko lolu daba ngendlela yakho, ngenhloso yokuthi izincomo zethu sizithathe sizise kwiKhabinethi, iSigungu sikahulumeni esiphezulu ukuze sikwazi ukuba sithathe isinqumo esiphelele ngenhloso yokunciphisa zonke lezinkinga ilungu elihloniphekile ubab'uGamede akhuluma ngaso.

IsiZulu:

Umntwana M M M ZULU: Ngibonge Mphephethwa, ngithi silamulele ngoba khona abantu abafundile laba okuthiwa abasebenzi bezikhungo zemfundo ephakeme ngenkathi sifika emaNyuvesi sasingafaki izicelo ngezigaba zemfundo enyuvesi noma ngokwezindawo lapho kufundelwa khona imikhakha ehlukene.

Kodwa manje sekwanele kwaba nemikhakha ehlukene eNyuvesi kwase kubakhona abasebenzi bezikhungo zemfundo ephakeme base bethatha umsebenzi wokwengamela. Usuyabona ukungena kwabantu ukuthi sekuhlungwa kakhulu benzela ukuba babenabafundi abanele ekilasini.

Angazi Ngqongqoshe ukuthi lo msebenzi wokwengamela ungehluka kanjani ukuthi izifundiswa lezi zethu zingathathi phela umsebenzi wokwengamela. Akwenziwe umsebenzi wokwengamela ubonakale ukuthi iNyuvesi mhlawumbe mayithi ifuna abafundi abasha abayizi-15000 noma 7000 kungenwe ngalolo hlobo. Abasebenzi bezikhungo zemfundo ephakeme baciphise amandla abo ukugwamandela ngoba bona bengabafundisi. Ngiyathokoza.

IsiZulu:

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMFUNDO EPHAKEME NOKUQEQESHA: Lungu elihloniphekile uMageba, kuzokhumbuleka ukuthi kungekudala sike saba nenqunquthela la yeZwelonke yeZemfundo Ephakeme, ebesihlanganise yonke imikhakha, amaNyuvesi, sibize abafundi, abasebenzi, abafundisi, nabaphathi bamaNyuvesi kanye namakolishi. Esinye sezinqumo esathathwa lapha okuyisona esibaluleke kakhulu, ake ngithi nje zimbili. Esokuqala, ngesokuthi izikhungo zethu Zemfundo Ephakeme kufanele zazi ukuthi umsebenzi wazo wokuqala ukwenza impilo yabafundi ukuthi ibe lula uma befunda.

English:

We want student-centred institutions.

IsiZulu:

Into yesibili enye esayisho ukuthi siyazi yebo nokho ukuthi abafundi bethu uma bephuma ezikoleni okwamanje njengoba uhulumeni sisazama ukunyusa izinga. Abanye babo abalungiselelekile kahle. Kodwa-ke futhi sasesithi akwenele nje ukuthi silokhu sikhomba abafundi ngenjumbane.

Zona izikhungo Zemfundo Ephakeme kufanele zizibuze ukuthi, uma ngabe sithola lolu hlobo lwabafundi, thina siyizikhungo sizilungiselela kanjani ukukwazi ukubhekana naleyonto. Ngaleyo ndlela ngicabanga ukuthi lezinqumo zizohamba indlela ende ukubhekana nalento oyishoyo bab'uMageba, ukuthi senza kanjani, ukuthi abafundi impilo yabo yenziwe ibelula, nanokuthi bathathwa kanjani ezikhungweni Zemfundo Ephakeme, nanokuthi bangena kanjani kumkhakha eyahlukene njengoba ubeka nje. Ngiyabonga sihlalo.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I just want to ask the hon Minister if he doesn't believe in striving to achieve the effectiveness of the bursary system and the fact that it would be better to have one bursary fund in South Africa. I am referring to the issue that at many levels in the provinces, there are premiers' bursary funds and in some departments there are bursary funds that are allocated to serve the interests of the students.

I am asking this question specifically regarding its practicality. In many instances, students apply for bursaries. But because of various reasons, be it administrative difficulties or whatever, they don't succeed in getting the necessary bursary funds to go an institution of higher education at the right time at the beginning of the year. So, the question is related to the effectiveness of the system. Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks to the hon member. Of course it would be ideal if we could have a single loan and bursary scheme in the country, wherein everything which is a bursary could be centrally administered. We are not yet there now. This is because, for example, a premier's office might want to offer bursaries in line with what that premier regards as priorities in that provincial government or in the province as a whole.

The challenge we have, which we have began to grapple with, is to try and create a framework for national bursaries and loans without necessarily having a single centre. For example, the work that I have asked the department to do now is to harmonise bursaries that we receive from many countries overseas - the European Union and United States of America, particularly at a government-to-government level, so that we could be able to say how we use these bursaries to advance our goals.

At the same time, this won't be possible. Many governments, other private institutions in other countries and other universities from outside the country directly call for applications and say, for instance, that they have bursaries for 15 South African students and that those students should apply directly to them. So, this is a big challenge, including bursaries that are given by private companies. We are engaged in this so that we can have a bursary system in the country that will give us a complete picture of what is going on, even if it is not from the same sourc. we should at least have a complete picture. In this way we will be able to direct resources in a manner that would enable them to have a maximum possible impact. Thank you.

QUESTION 32


QUESTION 31

Question 32:

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Chairperson, in response to question 32, I would like to respond as follows. There is a unit called the Disability Management Unit within Sassa that manages and monitors activities of contracted medical practitioners who are doing evaluations throughout the country. We manage these activities and evaluate them through the following activities. One, we ensure that the contracted doctors remain registered within the health professional council of South Africa. This means that they have to do what the council or the professional body wants them to do, as professionally as possible. Two, we ensure that there is provision of continuous training and that seminars and refresher courses are attended by these doctors dealing with people with disabilities. Three, we ensure that continuous quality assurance is completed by these doctors when they do medical assessments and that they complete relevant medical forms. Four, we also ensure that meetings are held regularly to discuss concerns and issues emanating from the work of contracted doctors. This is what we also do when continuing to monitor them. We also ensure that there is focus on the cancellation of contracts of those doctors who do not comply with their contractual obligations regarding assessment procedures and that there is appropriate conduct when dealing with clients.

The performance contracts of doctors serving in Gingindlovu are being evaluated through the Inkanyezi local service office, which is near Eshowe. They are being monitored on a continuous basis by Sassa's in-house doctors within this unit as well.

With regard to the last question, we would like to indicate that Sassa does have a toll-free fraud number. We would also like to indicate that it is not quite cost-effective to have a toll-free number for every service that is provided throughout the department as well as Sassa itself because of the number of services we have to deliver to our people in that regard. We therefore use one toll-free number for all the services at Sassa even though we actually call it a toll-free fraud number., For purposes of those of us who may not have ever had this number - if I may just indicate - the number is 0800601011. That's the number that everybody has to use when lodging complains at Sassa, even about the services of these doctors. Thank you very much.

Mr D D GAMEDE: Deputy Chairperson, I thank the Minister for the response which is very helpful. Fortunately the Minister has touched on grants for people with disabilities. There are people that are classified as permanently disabled. They would also have a challenge with these doctors, irrespective of the fact that initially they had been classified permanently disabled. Would the aggrieved person go the same route of complaining? This is because the situation won't change with regard to doctors. They would normally identify another illness, which would then require a person to continuously pay for a headache or whatever illness so that there are continuous visits to the doctor. Would this be the same office for laying complaints such as this - the fraud line?

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Deputy Chair, indeed this would be the same route to follow. However, there is a question down the line that relates to this matter, which we are still going to cover.

Let me just be as economical as possible at this point. We have a process within Sassa where we do reviews of all our beneficiaries of grants. As we speak now, this is the time period when we are doing these reviews. When these reviews are done, even people with permanent disabilities would go through them. In other words, they would be rechecked as to whether the disability has increased, grown or decreased. Even if it was a temporary disability, that would also be checked. So, this process is an ongoing one. This also helps in determining whether there are problems within the sector of people with disabilities as much as it does with every other person. Yes, if there is any other issue that needs to be dealt with urgently, that is the number to call. Thank you.

QUESTION 33


Question 32

Question 33:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, thank you to Ms Makgate for the question. The issues of migration, as I have indicated earlier, are quite a huge problem that government faces, whether is to health, education or any other service.

Whilst we did not receive a formal report in relation to what the situation is in Mamusa, we have received reports from the North West province in relation to the challenge of migration which results in the depleting of numbers in rural schools and an increase in numbers in urban and township schools.

This phenomenon expresses itself not only in the North West province, but across the nine provinces. This calls for an innovative approach. The North West, together with the Free State, has been in the lead in doing several things. Amongst them is the merging of schools. As we speak today, if my memory serves me right, some 2000 schools have less than 100 learners as the learner population. This results in multigrade teaching, difficulties in retaining staff and providing adequate infrastructure.

In terms of what provinces are doing, Limpopo is also looking at this more closely because in the past, many of our learners from the urban areas and our townships would go to Mpumalanga and Limpopo where there were hostels and where quality education was provided. We are now reverting to that. Hostels have been established in the Free State and in some parts of the North West. This would address problems in those areas where there is a drastic reduction in learner numbers in order to ensure that they go to a facility which is adequately resourced, has good infrastructure and where good learning and teaching takes place. So, provinces are looking at creative ways of doing this. As indicated earlier, the learner tracking system will assist us a great deal in ensuring that we are able to monitor the migration of learners from one area to the other.

One of the challenges that we face as the Department of Basic Education is to ensure that we continue to retain good educators in rural areas. Some of the reasons for migration are that parents send their children to urban and township schools in order to ensure that they receive a better quality of education.

We have incentives for educators and rewards for teaching in the rural areas as well as teaching scarce skills subjects such as Mathematics, Science, Accountancy and languages. We thought this would assist in retaining educators. We are also looking very closely at the possibilities of providing accommodation in rural areas to ensure that we are able to retain those educators. Thereby, we will ensure that the numbers of learners in our rural schools are not dramatically reduced. These are some of the measures that have taken place.

But migration is a problem that faces not only South Africa, but countries throughout the continent and across the world. It is something that we have to be very attentive to at all times. Thank you.

QUESTION 34


QUESTION 33

Question 34:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson and hon member Makgate. In order to respond effectively to this question, the department would need to get the details of this specific situation, including the project name, its location and the details of the beneficiaries that are affected. The details will be used to analyse available data to determine what had transpired, and from that information identify the reason why that happened.

In a situation where the national department is aware of such double allocation, checks are made on the housing database system to determine the rightful occupant of the particular house, and the house gets handed over to the rightful owner. I thank you.

Mr Z MLENZANA: Hon Deputy Minister, does this type of answer imply that there is a gap in terms of knowledge between the national government and the various provinces? If there is such a gap, how is this knowledge gap managed? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: No, in this instance there is no gap between our knowledge and that of the provinces. But the person who posed the question didn't give us the details of the project and those of the person involved so that we would know exactly what we are dealing with. Even at a provincial level, we would want to know exactly which project is being referred to. So, it is just the member who did not give us the full details when posing the question.

QUESTION 35


QUESTION 34

Question 35:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, in 2009 the Department of Transport, in collaboration with the National Department of Basic Education, developed a draft learner-transport policy. This document is currently being discussed internally in the two departments and will be soon released for public comment. The two departments are working together to finalise the policy by the end of 2010.

I may just mention for the benefit of the hon member that there is unevenness in provinces in relation to learner transport. Some provinces have the responsibility of learner transport entrusted with the Department of Basic Education and other provinces have it entrusted with the Department of Transport. There is a strong view from the Department of Transport that this should be passed over to the Department of Transport nationally and provincially, and this is being debated amongst the provinces. We have made some progress in terms of the discussion. We do hope, as indicated, that we will be able to release a document soon for public comment once the Cabinet has approved it. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr T D HARRIS: With regard to the Deputy Minister's answer, can the Deputy Minister inform us which provinces are leading the way in terms of learner transport? And in those provinces, does the responsibility lie with Transport or with Education?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: This is not really a follow-up question.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it a different question?

The MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, with your permission and just to assist the hon member, I don't think it is a question of which provinces are leading. If you look at the geography of the Western Cape and Gauteng, it differs significantly from that of the Northern Cape, Limpopo or the Eastern Cape where they are principally rural with large distances that learners have to travel. In Gauteng, for example, you can straddle the one part of the province to the other within two to three hours, but you cannot say the same about the Eastern Cape or the Northern Cape. So, each province has its own new answers.

Therefore, in developing a policy, one has to pay particular attention to the context of the different provinces. Therefore, there wouldn't be a leading line. One could certainly say that as a result of urbanisation and disproportionate development of provinces attributable to apartheid policies of the past, some provinces are better favoured and better positioned to provide access to learners as compared to other provinces.

Our task then is to correct these deficiencies in order to ensure that we provide easy access to all our learners, irrespective of where they reside in whichever province. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr K A SINCLAIR: Chairperson, in terms of the question, I just want to ask the hon Deputy Minister to make a pronouncement regarding the quality of the vehicles that are being used. There have been cases of horrific accidents involving school children. In many instances, these involve bakkies and in some instances unroadworthy vehicles. What is the department's position on that? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, we share the same sentiments in that regard and we certainly don't want our learners to be conveyed in vehicles that are unroadworthy or that are not safe. Therefore, we have to work closely with the Department of Transport, traffic departments, local authorities, etc, to ensure that our children are not prejudiced or at risk in any way whatsoever.

This conversation that is taking place between the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Transport speaks specifically to this particular area. The Department of Basic Education, for example, cannot prescribe standards with regard to the conveyance of passengers within a vehicle. You require the Department of Transport to do that. That is why this collaboration becomes so critical so that when we develop the policy, we have the ability, in collaboration, to implement it.

The hon member from the Western Cape raised an issue of transport being the responsibility of the province. But transport and education are both concurrent responsibilities. So, in terms of our dispensation and our approach as the Department of Basic Education and as government for that matter, we work closely and in collaboration with provinces to work in the best national interest of the constituents that we represent. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Mr A LEES: Through you, Chair to the hon Deputy Minister, you quite rightly said education is a concurrent function. In terms of my own province, I am not aware of any transport being provided to school pupils - certainly to no great extent. So, this is obviously a choice of that provincial authority not to do that. Are you going to encourage our province to provide this transport in your policy? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Hon member, there are norms and standards with regard to transport. We don't expect learners to be walking for more than 10km. All in all the standard is if the distance is more than 5km, then transport has to be provided. It might be somewhat unequal. It depends again on the context. In Gauteng 5km is a long distance, whereas in Limpopo it is regarded as a short distance. So, that's relative. But certainly norms and standards are applicable.

What we are trying to do is to ensure that we have uniform standards that apply across the country. At the centre of what we do, is the interest of the child. I think this should be the primary and principle consideration. But we wouldn't want provinces to feel that because they have a particular responsibility, then they are going to inconvenience learners and create unnecessary burdens. So, these norms and standards do apply. They are being looked at again in terms of the review of the policy to see how, again collaboratively, we can do better in order to ensure that we provide easy and better access to our learners. Thank you very much.

QUESTION 36


QUESTION 35

Question 36:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chairperson, the response to Question 36 is very short. They might think I'm getting all the questions because I originally come from this House, but that's not the case.

Learners in public schools are taught by teachers who are employed by a provincial department of education. Service providers are not used by government to provide daily lessons to learners. To date, there are no reports that teachers have not been in the classroom or that they have lost time for learners.

However, provincial departments of education - in fact, this occurs quite frequently - may use service providers for Saturday classes, winter classes or spring classes. I've given the example of how we are going to utilise the period for the World Cup, and here service providers would indeed be used. Therefore, it is important that when provincial departments engage these service providers, they should ensure that they are remunerated appropriately and in good time. Therefore we agree, in fact, that they should be held accountable when they engage service providers.

However, the norm with regard to teachers is that they are appointed by the department. They would have to do their job. It's not the service provider that comes to school, but the teacher who was appointed by the Department of Education. Thank you very much.

Ms M W MAKGATE: Deputy Chairperson, this is not a follow-up question but a concern because my question was very specific. I mentioned the name of the school where children did not attend school for seven weeks and the fact that there was a problem between the Department of Education and the Department of Transport as to who was supposed to pay the service provider. My question was very specific. It is just unfortunate that they decided to leave some of the issues on the Question Paper. I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chairperson, I do know that we have a very committed chair in the select committee. What I will personally do is to take the matter up, discuss it with the hon member and ensure that we are able to raise this with the province. This will enable us to sort out the problem in the best interest of the school and the learners. Thank you very much.

QUESTION 38


QUESTION 36

Question 38:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Chairperson, the current state of quintiles is as follows. Quintiles are still used to determine whether the schools may change school fees or not. It is also used to differentiate the amount of funding allocated to schools in a pro-poor manner. The following are the 2010 national quintiles amounts: R855 per learner in Quintile 1; R784 per learner in Quintile 2; R641 per learner in Quintile 3; R428 per learner in Quintile 4; and R147 per learner in Quintile 5.

For the benefit of the hon members of the House, quintiles are basically ranked on a scale of poverty. What is happening - in fact this is the reason why the hon members has asked this question; and thanks, Mr Gunda for doing so - is that there has been a dramatic change in the learner population of those schools. Whilst schools might have infrastructure that could appropriately be determined as a Quintile 4 or 5 school, the learner population is so poor that indeed it should not be so. This is a concern that we share with the MECs for Education.

The entire quintile system is being reviewed. As I speak to you right now, Quintiles 1, 2 and 3 have been reduced or contracted to one quintile. This was not in terms of law, but was in terms of a policy decision that was taken by the Ministry as well as the MECs for Education. We are looking at Quintiles 4 and 5. In fact, we have a law which allows an MEC for Education to change a quintile. For example, if it is Quintile 5, the MEC for Education may change it to Quintile 4 or to Quintile 3.

We can also celebrate the fact that not very long ago - some three years ago - schools in some provinces were receiving something like R250 to R350 per learner. Now the norm is not less than R700. In fact, it's above R800 per learner; which means funding has improved.

So, Quintiles 1, 2, and 3 have, as I've indicated, been contracted. They are all beneficiaries of the nutrition scheme. They all receive better and more appropriate funding. They also have the benefits of weighted advantage in terms of educators and administrators of services in those schools. The review process has not been completed. The moment it is completed, it will be presented to parliamentary committees for consideration, debate and discussion so that they can make recommendations to the department before we finalise it.

We could also say to you that as a result of this dramatic change in terms of learner population in schools, funding - which is going to be pro-poor, obviously - would be reviewed as well. So, there are two processes. One is the review of the quintile system, and the second is the pro-poor funding that has to take place to deal with the consequences of, amongst other things, migration. We spoke about migration. Here's another example of how migration changes the nature of a system in terms of funding and otherwise. So, thank you very much for raising this question. I do hope the response is of some assistance to you. Thank you.

Mr J J GUNDA: Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, I have just one follow-up question on this very same system you are referring to. The question is how will the department then assist a quintile school? As you have just mentioned, the population has changed, and the school is assisting our children right now; but it is a previously advantaged school. Right now it has more than 65% of our children, and some of the parents cannot afford the amount of money that is required. The school has to now write off more than 13% from their normal budget, and it seems like this is affecting our children now.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Chairperson, the response could be looked at in three different ways. One is that no learner is obliged to pay fees when his or her parents cannot afford them. That is an exemption. Whether you are in a Quintile 1 school or Quintile 5 school, it doesn't matter. However, our Quintiles 1, 2 and 3 schools across the country are no-fee schools. Today we can say that 60% of our learners in all our schools are in no-fee schools. So, that is a huge stride. We can say, for example, that 7,5 million of our learners receive nutrition everyday at school. That is a wonderful achievement.

However, coming to the issue that you raised here, the kind of legislative change that is being envisaged has already been discussed at a particular level in the Council of Education Ministers meeting. Where a school has a certain threshold of exemption - say 50% or 60% - the funding model of that particular school has to change. There also has to be a compensation for the exemptions that have been provided for that particular school so that the school is not at a disadvantage. That matter has been discussed. There were issues with regard to where the threshold should be. The heads of department are reflecting on the matter, and it will come back to the Council of Education Ministers' meeting.

What I want to assure you is that this is not something that is occurring in the minds of people; it is already there. Discussion documents have been prepared and there have been discussions amongst political principals. So, we do hope that sooner rather than later this matter will be resolved in the best interest, especially, of the poorest of the poor. Thank you.

QUESTION 40


QUESTION 38

Question 40:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Deputy Chairperson, presently the housing backlog is 2,1 million. The major challenge in terms of housing is the issue of the availability of well-allocated land to build houses.

We have the Housing Development Agency, whose task is primarily to acquire land and to ensure that land and properties which are not utilised are acquired from state-owned enterprises so that we could refurbish them for the purpose of building houses.

We've also agreed to have a multipronged approach in terms of the building of houses. Firstly, there is the issue of medium density so as to ensure that the housing rental stock is in place. The billion rand we got from government now is to help the markets to lend houses to the lower end of the markets - the people who cannot access housing subsidy because they are too rich but too poor to get access to a bond. So, the billion rand is going to assist them in doing so.

Regarding the issue of instituting the upgrading of informal settlements, we are also going to ensure that this happens. We assist people through the community-driven approach, which is where people build their homes through the People's Housing Process, PHP.

Human settlement is now a priority in terms of Cabinet. We had a Presidential Co-ordinating Council meeting on 18 May, where only human settlement was on the agenda. This is going to be followed up in July, as well as during the Housing Indaba on 04 October, UN-Habitat Day.

On the second part of the question, we already have provinces which are piloting innovative ways of building houses. We have Gauteng, the Northern Cape, the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape which have pilot projects with regard to different forms of building houses - the technology thereof. We also have a conference that is coming up on innovative technology in terms of houses.

On the third part of the question regarding provinces, we have Gauteng with a backlog of 350 000 units, KwaZulu Natal with 360 000 units, the Western Cape with 300 000 units, as well as the Eastern Cape with 280 000 units. I thank you.

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Hon Deputy Chair, further arising out of the hon Deputy Minister's reply, I would like to ask a question about housing in the North West province, especially in Meriting where 1 500 houses have been built, and not one of those houses is complete. Is the Deputy Minister aware of this?

In the Vryburg district also, only two houses have been built on a project there in two years' time. I want to know if the Deputy Minister is aware of this and what she is going to do about it.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS Hon Deputy Chairperson, we are aware of the challenges in the North West, particularly those areas that the member is talking about. We are in the process of engagement with the MEC. The matter is before the Department of Human Settlements and the technical team, the head of department in the province and the Director-General of Human Settlements. We are dealing with the matter because we want to address those issues.

We understand the challenges regarding the issue of the developer who was assigned to build those houses. Some of them are now in a dire state being demolished. But we have seized the issue, and we are dealing with it to resolve the challenges in both areas that the member talked about.

QUESTION 39


QUESTION 40

Question 39:

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I think I want to put the blame on the devil now. The devil must be chased away. [Laughter.] You always have to go back to my question.

Let me thank the hon Lees for the question, and thank you for being kind to me, especially for the fact that you had to go back to the question.

Yes, the Working for Water Programme ensures that where an agreement is entered into with a particular landowner, which sets out the specific target for clearing on his or her property, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is approached to issue a directive on the affected property when a target is reached, which the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries monitors in terms of the Conservation of Agricultural Resources Act. It should be noted that the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries pursues legal recourse in instances where issued directives have not been adhered to.

The Working for Water Programme is negotiating for the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries to delegate the authority of issuing directives to the Working for Water Programme to allow for a more streamlined management arrangement. It is also envisaged that such delegations must be addressed in the promulgation of proposed regulations linked to the management of invasive species under the National Environmental Management Biodiversity Act.

In the mean time, the Working for Water Programme has also adopted a new approach where the landowner is required to contribute some of the operating costs such as transport and equipment for clearing the work from the outset to ensure that the risk of undertaking the work is equitably shared, as well as to ensure ownership of the work by the landowners.

Yes, landowners in the Tintwa area have previously allowed the Working for Water Programme to work on their land. Although the area was handed over to landowners with the assistance of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, there was clearly inadequate monitoring of the maintenance of the land in a cleared state. The Working for Water Programme has committed to work with the landowners and the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries to rectify the situation. Thank you.

Mr A LEES: Madam Chair, thanks to the Minister for the answer. I am encouraged that there is more work to be done in this particular area. But in general the Minister is saying there is a change of approach to give landowners "ownership" of the process by making a financial contribution. That, I think, is probably a very good approach in a general sense, but there will be many landowners who simply don't have the means to make a financial contribution. Is the Minister contemplating any way of getting the job done even if the landowners are just simply unable to make a financial contribution? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Chair, this is a tricky one because if you set a law, the law should apply to everybody. I don't know as what people would qualify because they are not emerging farmers. If they were emerging farmers, then we would be able to put them in the scheme and then they would be able to access capital for all of these things under that scheme.

I must confess that we never thought through this particular matter. If you lay a national law that creates norms and standards, it should be applied equally to everybody unless you want to accommodate a special category of people. In this instance, we never thought through that particular issue.

QUESTION 41


QUESTION 39

Question 41:

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Let me thank Mr Groenewald for the question, and you, Deputy Chair, for giving me the opportunity to respond. I want to, in my response, preface my comments by saying that our intervention must be understood in the context of our constitutional mandate that we are a regulator. In this context, the kind of support that we give to local government must also be understood as mainly support that would ensure that norms and standards are adhered to and also that if there is any technical expertise needed, we would be able to avail ourselves and identify where such technical support is needed.

To respond to the question directly, I can confirm that my department introduced stringent criteria for the management of waste water systems that include treatment standards and asset management. In the current Green Drop assessment cycle, assessors are conducting consultative audits to inform the rectification requirements and process control adaptations required for waste water process optimisation.

My response to the second part of the question is that I can confirm that the department's regulatory initiatives are being intensified, with a stronger focus on the following areas: the reduction of waste water-related risks, with an objective of improving effluent quality - this speaks to the quality of all effluent that comes from our waste water treatment works, whether it will be going to the rivers or to the sea or not going anywhere; the monitoring of compliance and appropriate engagement as per the enforcement protocol; and the improvement of a skills-base through the initiation of coaching programmes for technical staff at underperforming waste water treatment facilities.

You will appreciate that some of the problems that we have are a consequence of a lack of skills, especially in the smaller municipalities that are actually the owners of these assets. Waste water management improvement will be facilitated by means of an incentive-based regulation known as the Green Drop Certification Programme. The Green Drop is really an incentive. We are trying to provide incentives and encourage municipalities to take action in dealing with waste water management.

In terms of the provision of sufficient drinking water, planning and funding of this function is the responsibility of the municipality. We are just concerned about the fact that many municipalities do not plan properly, and some of them do not allocate sufficient funds to this function. It is also not only this capital investment that is needed, but proper asset management that would speak to the maintenance of the systems themselves, the institutional arrangements and most importantly proper qualified staff and skills.

Part of this function should be regarded as an economic service. Indeed sufficient funds should be generated from our own income as well as from appropriations of the equitable share allocation to fund such services. So, it is indeed an economic service because if the infrastructure is not well maintained, this would impact on the activities of the municipalities, especially not only on water supply, but also on the effluent that would be released from the waste water treatment works. So, it is very important that we take it as such because at the end of the day if all of these things are not well attended to, they would impact on the areas where we live through pollution and all other problems that come with this. Thank you, Chair.

Mr H B GROENEWALD: Deputy Chairperson, I just want to know from the Minister what the department is going to do to assist municipalities regarding the problems we have with the sewerage in our towns. Is there a plan, and what is she going to do to see to it that we can have skilled people appointed in these areas? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chairperson, I started by saying that our intervention must be understood in the context of our mandate. Our mandate is to regulate. The Constitution gives the ownership of all water supply and water works infrastructure to municipalities. As we will all appreciate, the functions that are created there are followed by funding. So, funding that goes with this function will go to municipalities because these are assets of municipalities. That is the first thing we must appreciate. What this means then is that we, as a department, do not have funding that would specifically target the issues that you are talking about. That funding is located within municipalities. That is the first thing.

Secondly, the Constitution itself does not make the municipalities directly accountable to the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs. This applies in the same way to the Department of Energy. For all basic services, local municipalities are accountable to the Department for Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs. This is the second thing that creates a problem, which then creates two problems. Firstly, resources are directed to local government, and I have no say in this regard. The best thing I can do is to develop a programme that is going to allow me to regulate and then expose the problems that exist within those systems. The Green Drop is actually about that. But we don't fold our arms because we are also part of this government. We see this as a collective responsibility. If there is a need for us to help with technical support, we do that. If there is a need for us to contribute some funding, we look at our contingency fund, and we do that. So, the kind of plan that you are looking for may be located in the turnaround strategy of local government, the development of which we have been a part of and have been very involved with.

I hope that some of the aspects of the turnaround strategy may lead to the amendment of the Constitution and the amendment of legislation. There will be some alignment of all of these functions so that we can work together in a way that will make a positive impact on the problems we have. The only plan we have – I am longwinded in a very straightforward question – is located in the Green Drop, which is more about our regulatory function. This then should be taken in the context of the regulatory function.

We have already started to implement the plan. Is it helping? I would say, yes, it is beginning to help. This is because it has exposed what the problem is at that level and the extent of the problem. Are we doing anything about that? The answer is also yes. We are doing something. We are busy approaching people. I can't disclose that at this point. This would include the Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration because even if we are the regulator, we can't fold our arms. So, there are efforts under way. But again in terms of the plan itself, it would be difficult for us to have an operations and maintenance plan because that doesn't fall within our function. Thank you very much. Sorry, Deputy Chair, my reply took long.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, it's fine.

Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chair, we had a debate the other day and we know that Water Boards supply water in bulk to municipalities and that municipalities are supposed to then ensure safe and clean drinking water and also purify the sewage. In view of the fact that municipalities owe over R1 billion - and I take it that this is certainly to the Water Boards, the Water Boards' then can't function and provide for infrastructure. A lot of the poorer municipalities can't even pay to maintain their equipment. How does the Minister envisage obtaining this money from the municipalities under those circumstances? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS: Deputy Chair, this is a very complex situation, especially to those municipalities whose revenue base is low. They would have to access that from the equitable share or the municipal infrastructure grant, MIG, funding. That in itself has its own challenges, hon member.

I want to go back to Kuruman. I am going to Kuruman, Deputy Chair, if you can allow me to be anecdotal a bit here. There was a visit by the Deputy President where when he came back, he instructed me to go and intervene in the situation, which I did just like all of us do. When I got there, a water master plan was presented to me. When I wanted to know the cost that would have to be incurred in realising the objectives within the master plan, I learnt that the master plan was over R1 billion. It was definitely over R1 billion or R1,2 billion to change the water situation around - somebody from Kuruman seems to be whispering. Then I asked them what their total budget was. They said that it was R25 million. Then I asked them what that was for. They said that was a MIG budget and that everything together was R25 million. Then I asked them why this was the case. Then they said they had inherited 30 villages from the redemarcation that recently took place. Hon Faber knows about this. They inherited about 30 villages, and that responsibility was not followed by funding from the province that handed over to them. That is the first thing.

I asked them why don't they write and explain because there is room for them to access money from MIG even if it doesn't constitute part of the allocation. Then they said they couldn't because the authorities at MIG were creating a problem for them because they said the census didn't have the statistics that they were giving them and that it was only the census that could verify those statistics. So, they were at that point when I left them.

Clearly if you are talking small municipalities, this is the problem. It is a systemic problem that we need to address. This is one of the challenges that we are dealing with under the turnaround strategy. But I do appreciate the point you raised.

But in the funding that we are trying to access, we are aiming to look at what we will refer to as hotspots. Most of the hotspots are actually the smaller municipalities. Sorry, Deputy Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): No, that is fine. I was just tempted to stop you for a few minutes to allow the hon member to be taken out, because he is feeling cold.

May I draw the attention of the House to Questions 42, 43, 44, and 47? NCOP Rule 246(4) provides that each Minister only takes a maximum of six questions. Where more than six questions have been received, the excess questions are converted to Questions for Written Reply so that these questions do not have to stand over until the next round of questions in the cluster for social services. Written correspondence was sent to hon De Villiers, hon Gunda and hon Feldman, and their questions were all published on the Internal Question Paper dated 28 May 2010.

QUESTION 46


Question 41

Question 46:

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Chairperson, the Masupatsela Youth Pioneer Programme is not a direct job-creating programme. It is a value-based youth development programme that aims to skill and to also develop young people in order for them to be patriotic to their country, South Africa, and also to prepare them to become cadres for social change here in this country.

For the period between 30 May 2009 and 15 May 2010, the programme called the Masupatsela Youth Pioneer Programme has recruited, as I indicated in this august House during the Budget Vote, some 2 099 pioneers who have so far been trained. A number of those already trained and skilled, who have gone through the programme certification and are currently about to receive their certificates, stands at 1 784.

The Masupatsela Youth Pioneer Programme is being pioneered together with the Department of Higher Education because these certificates are issued by universities, the University of Free State in particular, which ensure that training is of good quality. These Masupatsela youth are already involved in activities which are quite developmental in nature, ranging from household profiling that we do under antipoverty strategy, the registration of Early Child Development sites and involvement in Operation Hlasela. Those who come from the Free State province will understand the importance of this programme. They are also engaged in the social relief of the distressed programme as part of ensuring that they gain practical experience working within our communities.

They have also participated in several programmes within the department, which led to some of them being employed permanently as we speak. The programme has also created some 115 jobs nationally for unemployed graduates who have been employed and trained as mentors of a pioneer for a contract of about three years.

In response this to this question, I have decided to table a very clear report through a database - it is quite long - that indicates our achievements, where these young people are placed, the opportunities they have been exposed to and so on and so forth. It will be attached to the response, and that will be circulated. Thank you, hon Deputy Chair.

Mr Z MLENZANA: Deputy Chairperson, just a small follow-up, with an understanding that the Minister indicated that I will receive the response. May I please get the exit strategy, particularly for those in the Eastern Cape.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Chairperson, I have already indicated that there are already 115 of these young people who have been employed. By the way let's also recollect that this programme started last year. The various departments that we are working with and the municipalities have also identified the skills that these young people are acquiring. It cannot be guaranteed that all of them will be appointed, but we are certain that after this training they stand a better chance of being employed.

The exit strategy is inherently built in ensuring that they are developed capacity-wise. In fact, we know that everyone of our people who has developed capacity-wise is employable and can easily be employed elsewhere. It's very difficult to say that this particular one will be linked to this and that particular one will be appointed there. But, it has happened already that some of them have been taken in.

QUESTION 50
QUESTION 46

Question 50:

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chair, yes, the Department of Arts and Culture has been working with various departments, including the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the Department of Sport and Recreation, the Department of Tourism and others, as well as the Local Organising Committee, LOC.

Regarding the promotion of our heritage sites and museums, the Department of Arts and Culture has renewed its contract to keep art work or posters depicting world heritage sites at the OR Tambo International Airport's arrivals corridor. The department will also take up space next to the Gauteng-based tour operators at the OR Tambo International Airport to promote our institutions and heritage sites as part of places of interest.

We are also part of the welcome campaign that has been launched by the government. We have promoters who will be situated at all three international airports in Johannesburg, Durban and Cape Town. These promoters, who are actually unemployed young people who will be employed for the period of the World Cup, will be handing out a tournament guide which we are producing. The guide is with the printers at the moment. It has a list and description of all our heritage sites, theatres, playhouses, African villages and public viewing areas, PVAs. They will be distributed in our airports as tourists, fans and the teams arrive in the country to promote and encourage them to visit our heritage sites and all the institutions that fall under our department and tourism. Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.

QUESTION 51


QUESTION 50

Question 51:

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chair, yes, we are part of the interministerial committee which is chaired by Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe. The interministerial committee has been meeting every month for the past year, and it includes Ministers of relevant departments such as Transport, Communications, Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Arts and Culture, Sports and Recreation, Energy, and many others.

We have also been working as a tripartite with the City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality and the LOC in overseeing the production of the opening and closing ceremonies of the 2010 World Cup. We have also been working together in ensuring that our South African artists as well as African artists from the continent, particularly those that come from the five African qualifying countries, are part of the opening and closing ceremonies and all the other arts and culture activities during the 2010 World Cup.

The Department of Arts and Culture has also focussed its attention on PVAs. As we know, there will be a PVA in every district in our country to ensure that all our people, including rural communities, can enjoy the World Cup. The national Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is leading various government departments in the intergovernmental committee responsible for ensuring that all systems are attended to in planning for these PVAs.

The Department of Arts and Culture has also forged a partnership with the SABC to activate 10 PVAs per region. At these events the Department of Arts and Culture and SABC will showcase performing arts and do a live broadcast of the events through television and radio. Each province and district will give artists the opportunity to showcase their talent.

The department has also teamed up with Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality and the Gauteng province to host the Welcome Village at Ekurhuleni, where we will host an African village. This is where all our African countries that want to showcase their crafts, arts, handicrafts, song and dance will be received and hosted for the duration of the tournament. Here also the Department of Arts and Culture, working closely with Gauteng province and Ekurhuleni Metropolitan Municipality, will own an amphitheatre where local up-and-coming talent will be showcased and celebrated.

We will also showcase African artists from various countries in the continent at this African village. This will be the main stage to host our local and African artists. We will also host fashion shows for African traditional attires and entertain guests and fans with African cuisine. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms B V MNCUBE: Deputy Chairperson, I thank the Minister for her comprehensive response. We would like to have her response so that we can market and showcase the good plans that she is telling us about. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon Mncube, there is a concern from the rest of the members that you actually answered without standing up.

Ms B V MNCUBE: My apologies.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Accepted.

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Deputy Chairperson, we will make copies of the response. We will also distribute the tournament guide, which has all the heritage sites and activities, so that members can assist us in distributing them and informing their communities. These activities will not just happen in Johannesburg, Durban or Cape Town, but also in the host cities, provinces and all the districts in the country where we will be having PVAs. We will also host African artists and South African artists, including local and emerging artists. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr A LEES: Madam Chair, the Minister mentioned that there will be a PVA in every district, and she also talked about PVAs and regions. Could the hon Minister tell us whether she is saying regions and districts are the same thing and whether she means district municipalities. Furthermore, could the hon Minister tell us who will be funding these PVAs because I know that at my own home there is concern that the local municipality doesn't have funds. Is your department going to fund such PVAs in each of the district municipalities?

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I think the hon member has answered for me. Yes, it's not regions. As Arts and Culture we have been allocated 10 PVAs throughout the country. So, perhaps we will fund one district per province. The others are funded through the Department of Local Government and Traditional Affairs., and DTI, municipalities and provincial governments are also involved.

Mr T D HARRIS: Chair, the Minister referred to the work that her department and other entities have been putting into the opening ceremony of the World Cup. Could the Minister tell us how long ago did they start rehearsing for that opening ceremony and whether she believes that time is long enough considering that the Chinese began rehearsing years before the opening ceremony of the Olympics. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I was at the rehearsals at Nasrec on Sunday. I believe we have experts in the area - choreographers, artistic directors and creative directors. They are out there in the field. Those people meet there from 8:00, sometimes right up to 20:00 in the evening. I believe they are ready, and I already have a clear picture of what is going to happen through my visit on Sunday.

I don't know about China. Maybe their dance and songs are very complicated. But I think South Africans are artists and songstresses by nature. So, the question of rehearsing comes naturally. For example, I can call on the Deputy Chairperson to dance and she will dance right now. [Laughter.] So, I don't think there will be a problem in that regard. I am confident that we are going to have a super and extraordinary African celebration during the opening and closing ceremonies. Thank you, Chairperson.

QUESTION 52


QUESTION 51

Question 52:

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, it should be noted that Sassa and the Department of Social Development do not support the notion of people sleeping at offices overnight whilst waiting for services. Indeed, everything will be done in our powers to eradicate and discourage this. In order to assist in managing this situation, our community members and leaders are earnestly requested to support the actions that are taken by Sassa and to also ensure that accurate information is disseminated to the public.

All our regions are currently experiencing challenges. This may have come to the attention of this august House, particularly our select committee. The challenges are related to trying to manage the number of people reporting to Sassa offices for assistance. This is indeed as a result of pressures from both people wanting to make applications for grants and those responding to requests to review their grants. I did indicate earlier on that we are currently at a stage where we are reviewing beneficiaries.

The number of people who want to apply for grants has indeed increased exponentially as a result of the changes in policy, which also allows all children born after 31 December 1993 to apply for child support grants. The one policy area that has also necessitated these changes is men over the age of 60 years being allowed to apply for grants for the aged, as well as the increases in the means test limits.

In order to manage this influx, a number of initiatives have been put in place, and they are as follows. The number of reviews to be done per month has been staggered, requiring affected beneficiaries to respond only when they receive letters informing them to come for a review. Community leaders and councillors, especially where we have a large influx, have been asked to assist in this process to ensure that beneficiaries have indeed received their letters that request them to come for a review before they stand up and go to the Sassa office. This kind of influx increases queues. The queues are also inflated by people who call to Sassa offices for a review when they have not actually received letters, but because they heard about the need for a review from a neighbour or a friend.

The staff at Sassa has been trained on the need to queue-walk often during the day when there are queues to ensure that everyone waiting in the queue should in fact be there at the right time and that they have all the necessary documents. Those who still require additional documents are provided with a checklist of documents to bring along next time when they come. They are also advised on the return date, which is a different day from that day. Where practical, different days are identified for different grant types, thus ensuring that the aged are given priority and that they do not compete for places with younger beneficiaries in the queue.

Many offices have introduced an appointment system whereby an assessment of a number of people who can be served by the available staff is also done. The remaining beneficiaries are given specific dates and times on which to return, where they will be prioritised over new arrivals. The critical thing to note here is that our people believe or think that if they are not present on that particular day, they will lose out on their grant. That is not the case.

A communication strategy has been developed and is being implemented in order to ensure that beneficiaries and applicants receive accurate messages regarding who may qualify for a grant, what criteria is in place and the need to review regularly when informed to do so.

With regard to the question of sufficiency of staff, it must be noted that Sassa is currently experiencing some serious financial constraints just like all other government departments, which has been necessitated by the financial crisis. This challenge is being addressed through the implementation of austerity measures. One of the measures implemented is the moratorium on staff appointment. So,

while the number of staff in specific offices may be insufficient to deal with the current influx, the answer is not to look at appointing additional staff but rather to utilise the staff within Sassa more effectively and efficiently. It will also not be prudent to appoint additional staff to deal with an abnormal situation as this may result in access staff once the situation has stabilised. we believe that indeed this situation will stabilise.

In addition, Sassa is reviewing its current business process. A project which we call "business process review" will determine the number of staff required at each local service office. I thank you, hon Chair.

Mr R J TAU: Chair, I may run the risk of asking a new question. But if it is so, the Minister will give guidance. During our recent site visit to Limpopo in Greater Tubatse Municipality through our Taking Parliament to the People Programme, we came across a situation where it was pension payout. Our elderly people where exposed to very difficult conditions in that it was very hot on that day and there was not even a tent for them to be comfortable whilst they were receiving the service. Is there something that can be done to ensure that during the days when services are being rendered to our people, these people are at least looked after with basic provisions such as shelter and so forth? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, this is indeed a new question. But with your permission, I can respond to the question.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are not forced to answer if there is no answer.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: No, I think I would like to respond to it because I think it is indeed necessary that hon members also help us in this regard.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: The current system which Sassa inherited from all nine provinces and which is also documented in contracts that have been signed between the current service providers and Sassa in the provinces, details exactly and precisely what should be done at any pay point and at every pay point. Services should be provided to all our beneficiaries and to our elderly people, in particular, with dignity. This is contained in the contract.

However, what is currently happening is something very different, and we are beginning to see this. I appreciate the hon member's concern on what he has been exposed to because this is a challenge we are currently dealing with.

We have begun a process of ensuring that we move towards electronic payment, without any exception and without any racial connotations.

It is really high time that we do this because the majority of our people in the white sections of our communities are currently getting their payments and grants from some of the banks. We have begun working on this process. The majority of our beneficiaries - just over 400 000 - have already moved to electronic payment. We encourage the young people to begin to move because with the elderly we understand that we have to conduct a particular education in this regard even before we can get there.

However, when we move to institute this new tender, it will not be something that is negotiable. At least up to 80% of the grants should be paid through a system that allows our people to get their payments under quality situations and conditions, preferably through a banking system. We are not saying which bank you can use. But we are doing some work in this regard, and we really want to do away with this kind of problem once and for all. I thank you.

Mr A LEES: Chairman, the Minister or the department has come up with a solution which I am sure will alleviate part of the overcrowding. My concern is that not everyone has a postal address, and the people may not get the letters. Therefore their grants may then be terminated because reviews have not been done. Is there any plan to try and handle people who don't respond when they should? In other words they may not have received the letters to go for reviews. Is there some kind of follow-up process before grants can be stopped? Thank you, Mr Chair.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, as I have indicated, additional measures have been put in place for all of us who are in this House - our councillors, traditional authorities and leaders or anybody within a particular body - to enquire on a continuous basis from Sassa. Firstly, if by any chance anyone of our members of the society may not have received a letter or may not have an address, an enquiry can be made through the councillor, a traditional leader and though whoever to find out from the offices of Sassa whether such a letter was released. This is allowed. We are aware and we also understand the situation under which our people function or live. Some of them do not have addresses. But those are some of the measures that we think will help us if all of us act and help those who do not have postal addresses. You will be informed in this regard just by enquiring.

Secondly, when it comes to the second stage where a particular member may have been left out or removed from the system, there is an appeals process that allows any member of the society to still come to Sassa and report that they have been removed from the system and that they needed to be reinstated. When such an application is made, the entire amount that remains behind is paid over to the particular person upon reinstatement because this would be correcting what had gone wrong. It could be an administrative process or something, but such cases are indeed very few.

The influx that we see from our people approaching Sassa just to or to enquire is indicative of the fact that they accept and know now that there is a review that all of us need to do. We had cases where people have been reinstated into the system, hon member. Thank you very much.

QUESTION 53


QUESTION 52

Question 53:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, thanks to the hon Tau for the question. In responding to the question, I want to say that we do have the support that we give to emerging contractors. The National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency, Nurcha, and the National Housing Finance Corporation, NHFC, which are housing support institutions, are in place to assist those emerging contractors. If emerging contractors are building gap housing, they can ask for assistance from NHFC.

In addition to that, we have the Youth Build Programme and the Women Build Programme. In the Northern Cape, women emerging contractors are building 100 units in the China Square area. Youth emerging contractors are building 15 units in Upington. These are the kinds of assistance that we are trying to give.

At the same time, we have asked – because of the new mandate of social amenities as far as human settlement is concerned – that all provinces must have emerging contractor conferences to ensure that people are aligned with the new ethos in terms of human settlements. We are going to have a national human settlement emerging contractor conference to ensure that we give better assistance in accordance with the new mandate of the department.

But we want to cite the issue of shoddy work done by some emerging contractors – not all, but some. In this situation, government does not get value for money. This is not the route we want to take. We will not continue engaging with contractors that do not give us value for money in building the quality housing units we want.

Mr R J TAU: Chair, as we move in this direction with the response, one of the critical things that I think would also assist would be the question of encouraging departments and contractors to source material from emerging contractors. Yes, you may have an emerging contactor who may, on the basis of the contract they have, source material to do work from the usual suspects or established contractors. I am talking about simple things like bricks and so forth. In my appreciation for the response, I thought I should emphasise that area.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Deputy Minister, that was not a supplementary question but an input. You can add to it.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I think it is correct. At the end of the day, we are not able to move away from the ethos of giving emerging contractors work because we are obliged to adhere to the black economic empowerment, BEE, concept of government.

They can outsource quality building material and big contractors can get materials from them. This will assist them in creating jobs and it will also help them grow.

The other problem we have is that we don't want emerging contractors to continue emerging. We want incubator processes that will make them big contractors at the end of the day. We would like to do away with the process of continuous emerging so that we can inject the kind of ethos that makes them big companies as well.

Mr W F FABER: Madam Deputy Minister, if we use these emerging contractors like the women project that you spoke about, would that not slow down the whole process of house building while we are trying to build houses as fast as possible? Will the backlog on houses not be a problem if we go that route instead of using bigger contractors in big developments?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, definitely the government wants to build housing on economies of scale. But in doing so, we must be able to develop people along the way. There is no way in which we can exclude everybody from building houses. If all hands are on deck, it will be better. If we are many, we can do our work better, and together we can make things happen. We cannot exclude them because we want to build on economies of scale.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Hon, Chairperson, I am worried about the shoddy building of houses. What measures does the department have in place to ensure that quality houses are being built? At what stage of the project development do department officials or the measures kick in to make sure that quality is assured?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, what would guarantee quality housing units is ensuring that projects are monitored across the project cycle, right from the ground level.

The problems we experience are that projects, in some instances, get monitored after houses have been built. There should be continuous monitoring and evaluation of the projects so that the National Housing Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, is on board from the onset. This would ensure that we have quality housing units. So,we need to revamp our monitoring mechanisms and evaluation systems, especially as far as the inspectorate is concerned. We must also ensure that we have quality material. Shoddy work comes as a result of bad material that people use for building houses.

Mr W F FABER: Hon Deputy Minister, I would just like to know about the registration of all these developments at NHBRC. I know that there are a few of these projects that have not been registered with NHBRC, and these are actually the people that look at the quality of houses. I know there is one or two projects in the Northern Cape which are not registered. Do people have to comply with this, especially small groups that will start working, like the women group you spoke about? Is this applicable to this group as well?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, since 2004, every single project is supposed to be registered with NHBRC. Prior to that, they were not registered. We do know that there are many that are not registered as yet, but this is a requirement.. Provinces should not approve projects that are not registered with NHBRC because that is a recipe for disaster.

They must be NHBRC registered from the onset because that is an assurance of government to ensure that we have quality homes. If this is not the case, we need to know about that. Please give us the names of the projects so that we can make necessary follow-ups.

Mr M J R DE VILLIERS: Chairperson, we visited a housing project in Limpopo after all the houses were completed. I understand that there are measures in place in the department. If we find that NHBRC and project leaders did not adhere to the requirements after completing the houses, who is responsible for the shoddy housing?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, the person responsible for shoddy housing is the developer and the province. This is because at the end of the day, they work to ensure that government gets value for money. When any project does not adhere to the norms and standards of government, all who were responsible must be held accountable. At a provincial level, heads of department are responsible. At a national level, the director-general is responsible.

At the end of the day the buck stops with us at departmental level because we acquire those developers to build houses. The money is given to us to do the necessary development. So, we will be responsible for any shoddy work. That is why the Minister has taken measures to demolish the shoddy work in the Eastern Cape. This is because we are responsible for ensuring that we give quality homes to our people. Unfortunately when we get to this level, it is a waste of government resources because more money needs to be made available to build these houses.

QUESTION 54


Question 53

Question 54:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, as far as this question is concerned, the challenge is with regard to the infrastructure. The Lerato Park project is still a flagship programme; it is part of our pilot projects. But the challenge here is around the issue of bulk infrastructure. This is what we are dealing with, and it is one of the priorities of government to ensure that we assist the province in getting the bulk infrastructure so that the Lerato Park project can get off the ground. This is a project that is supposed to be like the N2 Gateway project. But unfortunately because of the bulk infrastructure, it could not proceed; but it is getting attention.

Mr R J TAU: Thank you very much, Deputy Minister, for the response. I think the problem here is that this project or programme has been coming for quite some time. There are many mixed messages that are being given to the community. I mean just three weeks ago, the information I got about that particular project is that there was an agreement that should have been signed between Absa and the municipality, and then again there was something about the municipality with the provincial department and so forth. This is creating a whole range and level of instability within the community. What measures are then being put in place to constantly engage the community in giving them the correct information to avoid a situation where we have too many voices on the same subject going through?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: On the Absa aspect it is true that an engagement has been made with Absa to ensure that we kick-start the project. So, there are about 800 units that we are going to begin with right now following the discussions that the Absa Development Project Agency had with senior officials in the department. We are still waiting since the council was supposed to pronounce on the matter in May 2011 so that at least the first 800 units out of the 8000 can start being built in the process.

But concerning the other issue with regard to continuous engagements with communities, I agree with you that it is very important to do that continuously. That is a responsibility of my Member of Parliament here, the municipality down there and all of us. Thank you.




QUESTION 55


QUESTION 54

Question 55:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, I thought I had a national leader. I didn't know that I have a Northern Cape leader!

With regard to the issue you have raised, the answer is yes. I think this is also important. Sixteen subsidies have been allocated to the Warrenton project in the Northern Cape that we spoke about. The project is awaiting submissions from the municipality to approve the roll-out of those houses. Of course 1 000 units are planned for that area. Firstly, however, they are treating the 16 Warrington subsidies as a test case to see if it is feasible to really start these projects.

Regarding the other area, some feasibility study is being done at the moment, but we have begun with the Warrenton one. Thank you.

Mr R J TAU: Chair, I just want to say that unfortunately this is my constituency. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Okay!

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: He is raising provincial interests.

QUESTION 56


QUESTION 55

Question 56:

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, Sassa, is indeed dealing with allegations of corruption in relation to the issuing of tenders as asked by the hon member. An integral investigation was conducted to confirm reported irregularities in three regional offices which were ultimately confirmed. The cases relate to allegations regarding the issuing of tenders to friends and relatives without following the correct procurement processes. The difference is that we deal with these things in the ANC, we don't hide them. I can hear an hon member saying yes. We never hear the story in the Western Cape.

The internal investigation identified a number of red flags that pointed to a possible collusion between certain service providers and Sassa employees during the implementation of the Social Relief of Distress Programme. The cases have been referred to the Special Investigative Unit, SIU, which we work with in the department for a forensic audit to determine whether there has been any unlawful benefit by any Sassa employee from the service providers or any conflict of interest by Sassa employees. We are awaiting a report from SIU to decide on how the process should be taken forward. Once we get that kind of report, we will certainly act as we have already done before. I thank you.

Mr R J TAU: Chair, I must state that the response is quite appreciated. It really shows the extent to which the ANC and its leadership are committed to fight corruption and uproot it wherever it exists. We wish the Minister all the strength and capacity to deal with it decisively wherever it may be found. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr B L MASHILE: Chairperson, I just want to raise a directly-related matter to this particular issue. In the areas of Bushbuckridge, there is some kind of arrangement that the people who receive social grants must receive them at supermarkets. But then there is an arrangement that they must buy for a certain amount before they get the balance due to them. When we checked, they said they had an arrangement with the Sassa office. I just want to check whether there is any policy from Sassa that allows for people to get their money from a supermarket only after they have bought for a certain amount. I want to know whether this is not part of corrupt activities. Thanks, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: You are sneaking the question in, neh!.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, this matter is related to what I responded to in the previous question - which was also sneaked in - where a window was broken.

This is a matter where the current service providers - in fact two of them - are acting outside the agreement that was made with them. In other words, what I am saying is that this was not stated in the current contracts with those service providers. The contracts which were signed by provinces before Sassa's existence state that there will be payment to beneficiaries in certain manners.

Recently, there has been movement towards using what they call "the merchants". The merchants are these shopkeepers in shops. This practice is mainly prevalent in KwaZulu-Natal. There are notices written at the shops. In some of these merchants' places the notices state that any beneficiary that receives payment there must spend 10% of what they receive. We are dealing with this matter. It may not quite be a corruption matter in the true sense of the corruption we were talking about in the previous question. But this is a kind of artistic manipulation by the service provider. So, we are dealing with this. This is actually a matter of acting outside the contract that we have with the people. We are acting on these issues. Thank you very much.

QUESTION 57


QUESTION 56


Question 57:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Chairperson, with regard to the issue of Sweetwaters, I just want to say that this becomes part of what the national Department of Human Settlements has done in conducting a comprehensive national assessment on informal settlements across all nine provinces. This was done during the 2008-09 financial years. The findings of the assessment were that there are 2 799 informal settlements in South Africa. We are speaking about approximately 590 000 people living in informal settlements. This is the magnitude of the challenge we have in terms of informal housing in South Africa. So, this is what we have been doing, Dennis.

As we have done in Balfour, whatever area that the President touches on, we ensure that the national Department of Human Settlements is part of the team that makes a follow-up and assists in ensuring that the challenges are addressed together with the identified provinces. I'm sure that in this instance we will work with the Department of Housing in Gauteng in addressing the issues that have been raised in Sweetwaters. But generally, 2 799 people live in informal settlements.

Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for a very good answer. The Minister went to sleep in Diepsloot last year. Is this part and parcel of conducting an audit? Is he also planning to go and sleep in Sweetwaters? Thank you very much. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is a new question altogether. Anyway, hon Deputy Minister, you can respond if you want to.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Well, when the Minister went to Diepsloot, he was ensuring that we live and understand the living conditions of our people. As a result of his visit in Diepsloot, we have a task team at a national level that is consistently with the people of Diepsloot to address the challenges there. It was not just a visit which we forgot about afterwards. This is a consistent process. We even communicated with Shoprite on Friday to ensure that people's lives in that area do change. So, this is not a public exercise but a serious issue.

The Council adjourned at 17:04.


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